Welcome back to Rais by Giants Discussion. We are live. Welcome everyone in
the chat. Good to see you guys and any moderators or channel members out
there. Today. We have a never before done combo here this evening with
Wayne Stager and Ryan Gable here with us today and Mando. I love doing
things that's never been done before. But before I bring them on for what
I know is going to be an amazing conversation. A shout out to my
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are writer arranger channel members, thank you very much. So with that down,
we have an amazing little panel here today with returning guests of the show
but have never before been together. And first up we have a philosopher,
researcher, educator, spiritual teacher and visionary on in esoteric studies, Wayne Steiger.
It's good to see you, my friend. How is it going.
Good to see you, my friend, writer. Good to be here,
and thank you for the invite. Yes, I'm very much looking forward to
the discussion here today. I'm a little under the weather, but we're gonna
make it through here. Next up is author and producer of the show The
Secret Teachings and my good friend Ryan Gable. Welcome back to the show,
my friend. How's it going. It's going good, Writer, thanks for
having me on the show. Yes, and so the other day, gentleman,
we're just going to jump right into it. I was pondering on this
concept and this idea of heaven, and to any analytical person you know,
would do I thought to myself, where did this concept of heaven come from?
Because it's always heavily referenced in Christianity, and I'm pretty su sure that's
where everyone has heard of this concept of heaven from. But I knew that
the oldest religion in the world is Hinduism, which dates back over five thousand
years, and that Hindus believe in reincarnation and reincarnation based off of karma,
so it couldn't have come from Hinduism. So the question that I guess that
I opposed to both of you is did this concept of in afterlife or the
concept of heaven come from Christianity or is there an older religion or an older
teaching that dates back further than Christianity have this concept of in afterlife? And
Wayne, if you want to start, yeah, I think it's solely a
Christian theology. You know, prior to that, if you look at the
Egyptians, they had their belief of a afterlife and the underworld. But the
idea of heaven itself is a Christian concept because that's your reward or going to
heaven. Are you're going to have eternal peace and whatever that is. Although
I do find it interesting the Bible really doesn't talk a lot about heaven.
Paul wrote about it, but in the Old Testament, the Hebrews did not
believe in a heaven right. And it's interesting too because the Old Testament doesn't
really even reference a or a house. So if they didn't believe in heaven
or how then what exactly do they believe in? Ryan? What do you
well? I agree with Wayne. First of all, I think it's primarily
a Christian concept. But when I say it is a Christian concept, I
think the question is what is it? Because everybody has their own interpretation of
what heaven is, you know. And Waine's also right that you have the
concept of the underworld, and you find that in Egypt famously, but you
also find that in meso America, Zibalba, you find that in Japan.
I like to talk about the East because that's not very well known about in
the West. The land of Yomi in Japan was the land of the underworld,
and very I had very similar stories to the Egyptians and to the meso
Americans as well. So from meso America all the way to the Land of
the Rising Sun. You have this underworld concept, which I suppose you could,
depending on how you interpret it, interpret it as both a heaven or
a hell like state, because you went through the underworld in order to either
be reborn as a star or to transcend and maybe to be reborn again into
a physical body, which was a was a. I think that was an
original tenet of Christianity, was reincarnation. So I agree with Wayne in those
ways, and just to expand a little bit, that's that's my thoughts.
But I do want to add one more thing that in the Hindu belief system,
there's a place or I guess a state of being called and I don't
speak Sanskrit, but it's something to the pronunciation of zivarga zivarga s v A
r g a, and that's like the seventh heaven or they called the Lopez,
which is like a plane or a state of being, which is also
similar in the in the Kabbala with Kether the crown, and it's also something
that you find with the seven classical planets, and you find that with the
seven what they call the seven Garments of Ishtar, and also the seven garments
of isanagi in Japan. So these are concepts that are universal, and those
I guess those are my opening thoughts on your question. Isn't there a trinity
of the Kabbala that has Kathar in A, the Cathar, Chokma and Bana.
Isn't that the trinity of the Kabbala? Oh? Yes, yes,
for a second, I thought you were saying something else. I believe off
the top of my head, I think, and that's the same with uh
Barahma. And yeah, yeah, so that's the Shiva. In Shiva the
destroyer, but the destroyer is also the allows for new things to be born
in birth, so it's like a cyclical necessary evil. But yeah, that's
in Hinduism, it's all over the world, it's in us, like you
know, birth, life and death, et cetera. Yeah, it's really
interesting in this this concept of heaven and hell in the Old Testament. Nowhere
in the Old Testament doesn't say that when you die you go to heaven or
hell. So if there wasn't a concept of heaven and how for the Old
Testament people, then that means that heaven and hell is a relatively new concept.
Would you agree with that? Wien. Yeah, it's kind of like
the do you have a soul or do you have a spirit? Do you
have a spirit and a soul? And when I think of heaven, of
course, in Bible School, you know, we were Paul wrote about it.
He said there were seven levels of heaven marrying much around the world,
Ryan, as you were pointing out. And the thing that I think about
heaven is, well, what is the purpose of heaven? I mean,
what does it? Sir? Hell is the concept that we had from Dante,
and the Church grabbed a hold of that because that was the perfect control
that they needed to keep basically the peasants in line. Yeah. Hodgemunch says
here that no hell mentioned in the Old Testament. Well, I mean it's
kind of referred to what is that word? There's she all? Yeah,
it's like referred to as the pit. I believe so kind of yes,
depending on it was the twelfth gate in the city of Jerusalem was the pit
Guyana, and it's where they took all the refuge of the city and that's
where it was burnt, and it burned all the time. Do you know
what side of the city that was on was that west? I believe it
was the land of death where Ro's sunbat would crash each night. Mm hmm.
Yeah. I think every culture has that too. I think, I
mean from the Egyptians famously, they have the land in the West, but
I was even I think it's in Japan too. Japan has this legend about
a mystical island that in the Tibetan Book and the Dead as well. Oh
it is. I didn't know that. Yes, it's it's always in the
west, but that's because that's where the sun dies each night and becomes the
black Sun, you know. I think that the question that you're asking writer
can be looked at from more of a psychological point of view, and based
on what Wayne is saying, I think we should expand on Dante's version of
Hell because Dante's version of Hell is quite contradictory to the Church's version of Hell.
Dante's depiction and you could look this up if you wanted to show an
image of it, look up ice Palace Hell. Dante. Dante described,
and I think it was thirty three or thirty four of his story, that
Hell is actually an ice palace and that the devil or this devilish character is
actually physically encased in ice. So I've always looked at Hell as being sort
of like and I wrote this in my Occult book. I've always looked at
Hell as being kind of a place where it's a state of mind, like
when you're betrayed or when you don't feel loved, you feel really cold,
you feel really alone, you feel really cold. But when you feel loved,
when you feel appreciated, you feel really warm, you can feel the
light. That's kind of how heaven would be described. And then likewise,
purgatory is the state between those two states of awareness where you're really uncertain whether
maybe you're in a situation where you haven't made up your mind about something.
You're kind of in a state between feeling warm and filling cold. That would
be another, I think interpretation of it. Yeah, they're the one in
the middle there that you had that was the ice palace of Hell. Yeah,
it's interesting that you bring up this, this purgatory idea, because from
my understanding, that is what the Old Testament people believed happened when you died.
They believed in purgatory with aud it Abraham's side or Abraham's bosom, which
is referenced in Luke sixteen twenty two. I believe and God. Now,
I was going to say, if you look in what is it in the
Book of Samuel Saul King Saul when he called upon the Witch of Endoor,
and it's one of the few references in the Old Testament that we know that
there is this afterlife. It also shows that this witch had the ability to
communicate to the dead. And what the ancient prophet told Saul was that why
did you disturb me? And apparently it's a very grayish place. It's apparently
a place where the spirits or the soul's rest. So it's very interesting when
you take that concept and you try to play it into the heaven and hal
role, it doesn't jib. Yeah. In purgatory, the original word is
Latin pergatorious, and it means the translation in Latin is horrifying. So when
you apply the idea of purgatory to the Gates of Ishtar, or the Descent
of Enon, or the story of Isanagi going into the underworld to rescue his
wife is a nami in Japan. When he comes out of the underworld unclean,
he goes to a river and he strips off all of his garments and
purifies himself in the river, and when he does that, he then gives
birth to the Sun goddess am A Tanasu. So from the underworld or what
we might call hell, to the purifying of the river and losing the garments,
which is just like Ishtarananana to the birth of the Sun goddess. You
have this transition hell, purgatory heaven in a sense in that old Japanese story,
and that's essentially what purgatory is. It's the purifying of the soul.
I believe it was meister Eckhart, that German mystic, who said that if
we learn to we learned to understand that this is a paraphrase, we learn
to understand that angels and demons kind of play the same part. That demons
feed off of the negative things that we feel and the wightfull emotions like in
the Hall of Judgment in Egypt that would be consumed by the great beast.
So those demons actually feed off those things, and they're doing the work of
the angels, if you will, because in order to reunite or to as
sind if you will, that's a really bad word to use nowadays, but
to ascend through the spheres of consciousness. One has to be purified, which
is what purgatory is. It's the state between in a sense, between life
and eternal life in the spirit realm. Does that make sense? It does.
And I want to bring up this verse really quickly because I think that
it is very important, which is Luke sixteen twenty two. And here it
is. It says the poor man died and was carried by the angels to
Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried and in hades,
being in torment, and lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and
Lazarus in his bosom. And this verse is very interesting because it's where the
whole idea and the whole thought of what hell is really comes from. And
how many times have we heard people talk about, oh, well, when
you go to hell, you'll be able to see God but not be able
to do anything about it. That comes from this verse. And what I
find interesting on this verse is that, hey, if you really study the
scriptures, is that it's mixing two different theologies here. It's robbing from the
Hebrew culture, because I contend Christianity has no God. You can't tell me
who the Christian God is. But in here Jesus would have never said this.
Jesus was a rabbi, he would not have had the concept of a
hell. He would have understood Abraham. And you know, the story goes
on that there's this great chasm between Abraham and the rich man. Las or
something is the other story. So it's very interesting how the mind trap starts
right here. From the get go two different theologies, one that was old,
one was being invented. It's also interesting here the distinction between the poor
man and the rich man. It's almost like, if you're poor, then
you're going to be saved. If you're rich, you're going to torment.
You know what I think you can relate that to what Luke or whoever wrote
this book is saying, is they're basically describing in different terms the Egyptian Hall
of judgment. In the Hall of judgment, you had the heart and you
have the feather that were weighed. The feather was the soul. The heart
was the physical aspects of life. And if your heart was heavy or weightful
with sin or with regret or with desire, the beast would eat it and
you were not able to go into the next stage of the after life,
so that that would be a man who is poor in a sense, and
the man who is rich has no physical possessions, but is rich in spirit.
The feather therefore is more weightful than the heart, and then you're able
to transcend. I think that's what that's saying. I think so too.
But it's just interesting in the words that they use to describe it. I
think it's definitely a metaphor, but it's just interesting the poor, the poor
and the rich, because it's something that's been you know, propagated through Christianity
that if you have a lot of possessions, and you know, God isn't
really favoring you if you if you have a lot of things, if you
have a lot of material possessions, and that's of the devil, right.
It's almost it's almost Buddhist in a way. And I think that people have
also politicized that because a lot of people take the Bible and say that,
because they say the Book of Luke says something to that effect. They believe
it's like an anti capitalist message, which is in the same way that you
can interpret the Bible and you can interpret you know, you can interpret a
simple verse like that to mean some political thing. You could interpret it to
mean that I have to be poor in order to go to heaven. You
can interpret it as as I do. I interpret it as being part of
the ancient mystery tradition. But the Egyptians taught in the Underworld story. You
can interpret it and quite a few different ways. I don't think it's literal,
to put it bluntly, I don't think it's literal. You know what's
really interesting to this discussion is that I go back to the very beginning.
So what came first? Was it the creation of this heaven hell? Death?
Or was it live? Because if you have the construct that there was
a heaven in Hell, who populated it? How did it start? How
did it begin? And if you look at the whole concept of Hell of
Satan Lucifer, then Hell has to be run by a woman, because a
woman would be the direct antithesis of the Hebrew god Yahweh, the Eloween.
So the whole concept of Hell, when you begin to examine it, begins
to crumble very quickly because what it's saying is that Hell is run by women,
and because they would be the only ones that would accept God's rejects,
and the mother of all demons is a well in the Jewish vision, is
Lilith or Lam Yeah, yeah, so she was the mother of all demons.
You know, she just didn't fit into the Catholic narrative. But I
think in the very beginning, when they were still trying to figure out who
the God of Christianity is, you know, I think in one of the
versions it may have been a woman, but it still gets back to the
whole idea. So what was the purpose of this creation? And if man
came in after the scene, then it's a setup. It's a complete setup.
You know that if you take the idea of the queen of the queen
of the underworld, which is something that you find in Greece very famously with
Persephone or Proserpina in Rome, and that's a concept you also find again in
mess America, you find in Japan with Isanami, the queen of the underworld,
or the Scandinavians actually called her. Funny enough, the Scandinavian name for
the underworld goddess was hell h e l translated to how we would pronounce it
today. Hell. So the goddess or the queen of the underworld. That
was always a queen, it was always a woman, And usually that story
is meant to be interpreted as an allegory and a metaphor for nature. So
I'm sure that you guys both know this. But like Persephone is probably the
most famous story. When she goes into the underworld, she's this young,
beautiful woman, so she represents spring in summertime. She's defiled by the fall,
which is represented by Hades, who rides the black Horse that is the
horse of the end of the year, the coming of the lifting of the
veil, the apocalypse, the unveiling, and then the Pale Horse, which
is the death of winter. So you have this beautiful young woman of spring
and summer. She's kidnapped and raped and abused by Hades with the black horse,
who actually carries scales in some of the stories, and he takes her
to the underworld. And when she goes to the underworld, Earth essentially dies.
And because Demeter, her mother, is very saddened that her daughter has
been kidnapped and raped and abused, so she lets the crops die. And
Zeus gets upset in the story because all mankind is going to die without food,
without light, so eventually Zeus convinces her to and convinces Hades to allow
Persephone to go. The story goes that she eats food in the underworld,
which you see that movie Man's Labyrinth when Ophelia's turned out to eat the food
and the pale Man's layer. That's purely Greek and Roman and other mythologies.
So she eats a pomegranate seed, which often is also correlated to the apple
and the garden of Eden. And when she eats the pomegranate seed, I
think she eats a third or something like that of the pomegranate. So she
has to stay in the underworld that portion of the year. So she has
to stay there roughly through the fall in the winter, and then when she
comes back to life in the spring, everything blooms again because her beauty comes
back to the world. So although she is essentially the queen of the underworld,
she's also the queen of regeneration and rebirth, which is something we find
in Egypt, where Queen Isis has both white veils of purity where we get
the wedding veil from in part, and also black veils of mourning where we
get the story of the cinders on her face. The Cinderella story, she's
searching for her prince Charming. So she's both a white and black goddess or
queen in the same way that I think it's the Zohar. You have the
black and white god, and there's an agricultural aspected element to all of this
that's very important, I think to the discussion of heaven and hell. It
odd that the pomegranate had also adorned the doors to the Holy of the Holies,
the temple. Mm hmm, well my still on, Yeah, okay,
I'm good. It's interesting when we talk about, you know, these
people going into hell because you know who else descended into hell. Jesus Christ
whenever he died, he descended into hell for three days and then resurrected and
then ascended into heaven. Which people really leave that part of the story out
for some reason. Wait a minute. He was crucified on a Friday and
raised on a Sunday morning. That ain't three days. I'm just I'm just
telling what the book said. I mean, you know, there ain't no
three days there. Well, it was on maybe on the Thursday, Fridays,
the day Saturdays, on the third day I guess it can't be no
good Maybe good Thursday. I don't know, but they didn't sell enough fish,
so I mean, maybe that's why. I don't know. I've actually
heard some scholars suggest that that a lot of the stuff in the Bible fish
and wine is really just a bunch of marketing. Well, what was it,
Pope? Was it? Was it Pope Pious the Third who said,
Oh, how we've deceived the people in this this belief of Jesus that never
you know existed. So and today it's odd because it influences all of our
culture. We're talking about heaven and Hell. It's the great fear. Hollywood
has made billions on, you know, personifying this place called Hell. Yes,
as a philosopher, I look at Hell is probably the place where i'd
want to be, because I'd be very uncomfortable in heaven because I'm the problem
child. I'm the person that when you see me, I'm someone said the
great question mark, you know, I guess, yeah, I'm trying to
look for this verse really quickly. I think it's Ephesians four nine that says
Jesus descended into the lower parts of the earth. Well, I mean the
whole Jesus story. A lot of people say, well, it's just sun
worship. Well, in a sense, it is, but it's a little
more complex than that. It's really kind of a mixture of both agricultural analogies,
metaphors, and allegories, Like there's a whole bunch of stuff that gets
put into the story that becomes the Jesus descending into the hell story or the
verse that you're looking for. In the same way that when Jesus transcends and
goes up into Heaven, that is a story that's also told all throughout the
world in various different forms. So really, the Jesus story isn't simplified in
my view as just oh, it's just sun worship. Now, it's far
more than that. It's basically a mixture of what it seems like virtually every
major culture on this planet. It's putting all this together. And I think
that the Church, and I think most people understand this and know this already,
that the Church was trying to take these ancient cult beliefs and basically make
it easier for the people to accept this new state sponsored religion by bringing those
people that already have these beliefs into the Christian narrative because it was so similar
to what they already believed, they just created a new version of it.
Whether that's the point out that when Christianity came about, and I always figure
about three seventy five four five it was organized, that was also the beginning
of the Dark Ages, and ever since this religion has populated through the world,
it has brought the Dark Ages with it. I mean, the Batylonian
Tulmult says that the Goam are the slaves of the Jews, and that Christianity
is the curse of the Jews upon the Goum, because the Hebrew God will
never allow a gentile in his presence right the story, I mean, that's
what it says. And so you've got this false narrative where today in the
Western world we're convinced that this story actually is true, but actually we all
know deep down that it most likely is not so anyway, Which of course
doesn't mean that many of the motifs and the principles and whatnot that you find
in Christianity aren't things that you should abide by or better ways to live your
life. Like Christian principles, it's probably a pretty good way to live objectively
speaking, But that doesn't mean that Wane's not right, which I agree with
him that it's and I think I mean the Muslims in the Jews, that's
one thing they agree on, that Jesus was not the son of God.
That was a blasphemous thing to tell me that space. If you read the
talent, it says, I'm sure Wayne knows this. It says that anybody
who well, they refer to anybody who distresses Israel as being the chief,
which is a word that was used to describe basically detractors of the Rabbis and
detractors of the of the I guess the elites in the rabbinical class. And
they said that anybody who does that, which included Jesus, who they said
was a wicked sorcerer from who learned magic in Egypt, who claimed blasphemously to
be the son of God, that he would burn eternally an excrement. I
think it's like track fifty seven A or fifty seven B of the tal Me.
Actually, people say that doesn't say that. No, it does say
that. You can just look up. I just taught on this a couple
of weeks ago. So it's very Rabbi Fuchs when I was looking to convert
to Judaism after our third meeting, he just looked at me and he says,
do the Jews a favor. Don't convert because their opinion of the Twelve
Apostles that they were the twelve devils, the twelve rebels that destroyed Jerusalem.
And that's how the Jewish people view Christianity. It was those twelve so called
Apostles that were the ones then the blame for bringing down their their whole society.
Yeah, I think it's just a couple tracts or versus. After the
THECES comment, where is this guy named Akellos? I don't know how to
pronounce the name? You know that? Is it on Kelos? You know
that name? You're close guy, I have no on Kellos something like that.
I'd be speaking in tongues, you know, That's what it feels like.
So he wants to convert to Judaism, and he goes to some of
the higher ups and asks and they and he basically the story goes, he
goes and actually reforms necromancy. It literally literally says this in the teal mute.
He performs necromancy to resurrect Jesus from hell or from the dead, and
then he asks Jesus, what do you make of these Jews, Like that's
what he's asking. And Jesus says, well, he said you should not
seek their misfortune, but you should seek their guidance and protection like you.
Basically you should convert to Judaism, I think is essentially what Jesus tells him.
And the guy says, okay, well what if I don't, what
if I choose to go my own way? And he says, well,
then you will be punished the way that I was punished. And he says,
well, how was how were you punished? And he says, you
will burn eternally in boiling excrement if you do something that the Jews don't like.
So I find it really ironic. And I know that's one section of
the Talmut. It's very large, and you can take things out of context.
But and the same with the Bible or the Koran. But you know,
Christians and Muslims believe a lot of the same things, and yet the
media and our society have them neck to necking each other's heads off all the
time. And there's extremist groups of course, in both, but for the
Christians to be so held bent no pun intended on supporting the Jews and supporting
Israel, when the Jews on average don't really support Christians and actually see the
Christians as blasphemos themselves and say, actually, all the in the tell me
this says, all the followers of Jesus will be punished in that way.
It's weird because the Muslims believe virtually what the Christians believe, with the exception
that Jesus is the son of God. I've always said Christians have far more
in common with Muhammad and Allah and Muslims than they do with the Jews.
I'd agree with that. Doctor Charles, in his book of Historical Jesus,
pointed out that he felt that it was the Vatican in eight eight hundred right
around there that they were the ones that also helped start the Islamic religion.
Interesting I ever heard that. I'll check and after the show, I'll send
you the book. And the reference of it was that what because it allowed
Rome to have the perfect corner on the market. Rome took the umbrella of
the Abrahamic Covenant as its own, so basically like almost like offering like a
one company that makes two or three different products, but they own them all.
It's SELFI national we serve everybody. Y Coca pepsi is basically what it
is. Here's this verse, this verse right here Ephesians for nine through ten.
Now that he ascended, but what is it but that he also descended
into the lower parts of the earth. He then is the seam as the
one that uscended up far above the all heavens, that he might find or
that he might fill all things. So, and I think that this is
what the the Old Testament people kind of believed that whenever Jesus was crucified and
died, then he freed the souls from hell. That's why you went to
He descended into hell, and then that made it to where people can enter
into haven. I think what Jesus in my view, I think Jesus quote
unquote whatever you define that name, because it's a title and it's more,
it's not There was no Jesus in the Hebrew or even in the Greek.
It was more like Jesus. It was more like Zeus and translated from Hebrew
to yeah, Jeseus right from Hebrew to Greek. So there was no Jesus,
but there might have been many people that played a part like Jesus.
In fact, there certainly were because the Romans actually, well they usually did.
From what I understand, the Romans didn't crucify people usually for religious crimes.
They did for other crimes, so it was kind of uncommon. I
don't know how true that is. I didn't live in ancient Rome, so
I don't know, but from what I understand, they didn't really usually crucifiable
for religious crimes, but there were people that certainly committed religious crimes. Whoever
this Jesus character was, or many Jesus characters, because there are probably many
of them that whatever they had done, they certainly had angered the Roman establishment,
the Roman authority. They could have been more like political activists. I
mean, if you were teaching that Rome wasn't the main authority in the land,
I mean, that's enough to get you killed. Probably It's same as
it would be today if you were in China or North Korea. It's a
very similar kind of a thing. So I do I think what Jesus was
teaching, in my view, or at least conceptually, what we can kind
of pull out of the Jesus story is he's teaching the mystery religions, because
when he raises Lazarus from the dead, that's the same story that we read
about the Egyptian temples and pyramids. It's raising someone physically from the dead,
but they're not physically dead. They call it living resurrection. And so Jesus
is showing you to go to Hell and to come back. It's really in
psychological terms, or even in literature terms, it's kind of like the poems
and the stories. I think they were like sixteenth century. I forget who
wrote them and came up with the idea of the dark Knight of the soul.
You go into yourself, and that's I think what the Jesus story is
all about, going into Hell, going into yourself, dealing with your demons,
killing the dragon, slaughtering the beast, the animal sacrifice, and then
transcending out of that and recognizing you're part of a much larger whole ide heaven.
And I think that's what the Jesus story is actually saying. And then
you have to weigh that with history. I mean, when I finally realized
that the Jesus story was just that it's a story, because history shows when
the real character in the New Testament, and the first four gospels are actually
the exploits of Vespasian. Now Vespasian was real, we know what he looks
like. We have a bust of them. And where the crucifixion story came
from was because of his son Titus, when he basically held siege to Jerusalem
and allowed the Jews for the first time within years to come in worship on
the high Holy days, and then Titus sealed them in and basically it was
two million people that were slaughtered. That was the fall of Jerusalem. And
it was right after that that Titus went into the temple and took out the
holy relics of the Hebrew worship. The three people that Titus did in fact
crucify on the hill, that story is actually true. But they were as
you pointed out, and they were actually rebels. They were the ones that
actually broke the law according to Roman law. But we don't hear that in
the New Testament. You don't hear the story of Titus. And again,
the idea that we read these gospels, the lunacy of this is is that
you really think a human being could sit down twenty years later and write a
story per batum. I mean, we know that's impossible unless it was channeling.
Now maybe he was in fact channeling something. But that's the problem that
I see that we face here in the West. We're still hung by this
god spell that still hangs over our whole culture, particularly now that it's spread
worldwide. But that's just my opinion. A couple interesting things to what you
said. First of all, a lot of the way that we interpret heaven,
hell, purgatory, God, the devil and all that is cultural.
So like, for example, in Japan, although a lot of Japanese now
have transitioned to become Christian because I think they love Western ideas, blue genes
and rock music, rockkup music and all that, they also like Christianity.
But in traditional Japanese belief, which is mostly from Taoism, Confucianism, and
Hinduism originally Buddhism and Hinduism at its core, they practice what you might know
I practice as Shintoism, and Shintoism is totally different than any other thing I've
ever read in my life about religion or any kind of theology. They actually
see life not to be suffering. They see life as a positive, wonderful
thing, and that the only time life becomes uncomfortable and painful is when you
fail to fulfill your duties, honor your ancestors, do what you need to
do for your community. So and that really speaks to the cultural essence of
what the Japanese are. I'm not saying all Japanese, but traditionally so in
the West, we usually see the world in a totally different way, just
like other Eastern countries do. It's not right or wrong, but the culture
that we live in, is my point, can radically transform our perceptions of
what's the meaning of life, what's the point of of living and dying,
what happens after we die, just from a cultural standpoint, just from a
cultural point of view, that can that can drastically change the way that we
look at the world. And then when you try like the Romans, clearly
that when you try to create something like I had a thought that came to
my head a moment ago when Wayne was talking. I was think, I
don't know how again, I don't know how true this is. I didn't
live in ancient Rome, but from what I've read, I understand that the
Romans, depending on the time period, because Rome was vast in terms of
how much power and how well they had power for the Romans, like at
certain points didn't actually prosecute people for religious crimes, and the scene. You
really it's kind of like Siria. Today. I met some people from Syria.
They said, actually, if you're a if you're in Syria, a
lot of places in Syria, you can be a Jew, you can be
a Christian, you can be a Muslim. There's no contrary to or our
media says. I was told that by multiple people from Syria. It's kind
of the impression I got of like ancient Roman at certain points, the Romans
are actually very accepting. In fact, Manly Hall, my favorite author all
time, he said he said that it was the Christians that originally burned Rome
and that the Romans finally had enough of Christianity, but enough people in power
thought hey, this is a really good cult. We could use this,
and so they adopted it. But that the Romans originally they were like this
is Christians are fine, you can be here. It was the Christians that
pushed which it's really bad if you pushed the Romans to do that. The
Romans were like, these people are insane. So but we could use them.
It's kind of the idea that Manly Hall played with. He wrote a
book called How to Understand Your Bible, which is really good, and he
talks about that in that book. He pointed out as well as that isn't
it odd? The one Roman who basically invented and wrote Christianity New Testament theology
was Paul. Paul's family supplied the Roman legions with tents and other utensils,
made them what would be comparative today to billionaires. The story of Paul being
beheaded in Rome is actually false because there is, in fact the twenty ninth
chapter of the Book of Acts where Paul went and settled up in Germany,
and in fact, in the twenty ninth chapter of the Book of Acts it
says that he actually killed Pilot. So it's very interesting when you start dissecting
all this to see how it completely as you said, right, it fashions
our culture, our society, our laws, our governments. Another example of
that would be if you looked at like the Scandinavian countries, they're depictions of
Hell and their depictions of the end of the world. You know, these
are places that are famously like the Vikings came to places that are famously like
cold and hellish, like unlike you know where I'm from, Florida. You
know, we if these ideas develop today, you know, my idea of
heaven or hell might be different coming from Saint Pete Beach, Florida than someone
who lives up in like Manitoba, Canada, you know, because of the
just the climate alone can change our views on heaven and hell, can change
our views on what it means to live and to die. I think that's
a really important ask, just to kind of play on the question that you
asked at the beginning of the show, writer, I think, you know,
the way that we grow up, the climate a lot of our culture
that can certainly determine how we we view the world and our experiences, you
know, our experiences of life dictate, you know, what we believe in,
how we fashion our own thoughts and our ideas and our beliefs. Now,
as I mentioned in the very beginning of the show, how Hinduism is
one of the oldest, well is the oldest religion in the world, dating
back over five thousand years, and they believed in reincarnation. Now, when
I'm thinking of reincarnation, I'm like, well, if reincarnation is real and
we get brought back onto the Earth, but just in a different body,
what would be the reason for that? And when you deduct, oh,
well, if that's the case and that's really what's happening, does that mean
that there's not any other place else to go? Right? Well, I
mean, why would we need to be constantly continuously recycled back here? To
me, that would indicate that there's no other place else to go, that
this is the only place for us to go. If indeed reincarnation is a
you know, let's rider, can we expand on that? Because if reincarnation
is for our corporeal bodies, spirits, whatever you want to call it,
then what about the planets. Earth is a living entity, It's a living
planet. If it wasn't alive, we wouldn't be alive. Earth will eventually
cease to exist, something will happen to either our Sun will go super nova,
but Earth will eventually, some point in the future be destroyed. So
how does the reincarnation story go then? Is Earth reincarnated? Does Earth come
back into the ethereal realm and reincarnate as another planet, or does it become
a sun you know, my mind and my meditation. I think about these
things and you begin to extraculate it, and you're going, but wait a
minute, reincarnation is finite. That's a good point. It is finite.
I honestly don't have much of an interpretation or perception of reincarnation. Writer to
your question, I do know that it's one of its probably I would say
it's probably one of the oldest docs. It is part of the Christian doctrine
originally, And of course it also depends on how you define reincarnation. So
I suppose my interpretation would be, if I had to give you one is
that we assume reincarnation means you come back into this world. But perhaps like
in meso America and in Africa, the idea was you like pharaohs would be
reincarnated but as stars. But that doesn't mean that they were like physically they
physically became a star, or like the baby son from the Teletuppies, like
it became alive. If it means you transcended to the stars, you transcended
the heaven, like you reincarnated as something else, or you became associated with
this with a star or something to that effect. So reincarnation. We assume
it means bodies, but it might not mean physical human bodies or animal bodies
or insect bodies. It might mean a consciousness that is that perhaps elsewhere I
guess, rebirthed in the cosmos somewhere. That could be as a star,
that could be as another planet. Like I'm not saying literally you become a
planet or a star. I'm saying that the idea in Egypt was that the
pharaohs would go to become stars. That's how they were reincarnated. So reincarnation
might not be that we just come into a physical body again and when we
die and see the light, that's us being born. I gin it's a
very new age concept, so it's like we're star seeds, you know.
I think that there's another way to interpret and define reincarnation again, as the
Egyptians and as the Meso Americans did, that you were reincarnated as part of
the cosmos view or actually, you know what that idea might be similar to
that the mainline physics view of energy, right, like energy can't be destroyed,
it can only be transferred themodynamics. Yes, it's in fact, I
think modern physics there's actually a good book written on this about how modern physics
mirrors a large amount of what we find an Eastern philosophy and the just tradition.
I think that might be what reincarnation is, Like your energy gets recycled,
not that you come back into a body. Does that make sense,
right? I was just saying the perception of what people think reincarnation is.
The people, Yeah, they think when they think of reincarnation, and I
think the way that it's been depicted is that it's like an endless loop of
being reincarnated back into a human body. But I believe that the Buddhists believe
that you can be reincarnated into animals and plants and like all different forms of
life. But again, I think people think that it means that we're automatically
brought back onto this planet. And then that's my question and my point of
bringing this up is like, well, why why would we have to come
back here? You know, it doesn't really make any sense unless this is
the only place for us to be, if this is the only place that
it can stain physical three D life, such as the people that are listening
to this and such as Wayne myself and Ryan. Right, if you deduct
all that, and let's say reincarnation is real, then that would imply that
this is the only place to be because it's the only place that we can
I mean, what the fuck I mean that is hell? I mean means
that this is a trap, there's no way out. Excuse me, bluntness,
but that's exactly whatuld be my depiction of Hell. I mean, what
do you go to hell for anyway? Well, you have to go back
to the Christian theology or whatever. But that to me, you see,
that's what drives me inside. And I'm going but wait a minute. So
the ultimate intelligence that creates all of this architecture, this is what we call
reality, the universe, ex that this is the best it could come up
with. Maybe the idea of what maybe the purpose of what you're saying right
of the purpose of coming back into this this world. Maybe it's like a
lot of cultures believe in ancestor worship, where your ancestors are with you.
Maybe the reincarnation element is almost like being reincarnated or kept alive in the minds
of your descendants. Maybe it's not you know what, I don't know who
my ancestors are. I mean, on the DNA but I don't know how
to connect my ancestors and I don't know them. Well, maybe walk and
slap me in the face and I'd go, sure, prove it, you
know. But maybe we learned that after we die, I mean, maybe
we the restraints to the physical world are lifted and we have access to the
akashik or whatever that the Kosher records record. Yes, what actually comes from
the book of mallet Ki By the way, I didn't know that, Yeah,
Malachi h three twenty. It's actually that talks about the angel or the
entity that writes everything down into the book. But then comes in another thought
and train of thought, what if when we die, things are so bad
outside of our reality that this place is the only place for us to come
to, right, Like, what if everything is just like destroyed and this
is a real simulation for us to be in for a period of time until
everything outside of us gets rebuilt. What you're saying is, when you die
and die, you go to Portland, don't bring your guns. You know.
Well, I mean a lot of people think that, you know,
especially the New Age thought ideas and beliefs, that we choose to come here,
right that's like a theory and a thought that has been permeated for a
really long time, and I feel like it's an excuse like to be like,
oh, well, you chose this life. Well, I'm sure for
a lot of people they did not choose their circumstances or their ideas, which
I think is complete in utter fabrication. But if we take that into consideration,
and that concept that we chose to be here and live this life,
then why would we choose to be here and live this life. There would
have to be some sort of extenuating circumstances outside of our reality that would kind
of force us to continuously come back here. I don't know. That's just
where my thought process. You know, you think about the birth process.
So if we're really you know, eternal, or if we're really these consciousness
that really never die, never began. But so you're telling me that we
thought about this, and and so we're reading the agreement. You're going to
go through the birth canal. I can't think of anything more painful for a
human to experience than physical birth. It only happens one way. You can't
do it twice. And then you're going to roll the dice and hope that
someone's there to take care of you. I mean that maybe that is the
point the experience. I don't know. Maybe that's why we fear death so
much that we're afraid of being born again. M Ryan, what do you
think? You know? Honestly, I don't know if I have much of
an opinion on it. I don't know if I'm not an opinion per se.
But I don't really have that thought worked out too well. I don't
know if it's something that I could really it's abstract. I don't know if
I could really put them into words. How I feel about it, Like
I understand the question, I understand what Wayne's saying. Don't if I really
have many thoughts about that, I'm being honest, Yeah, I think it's
just an interesting concept and just where my mind and brain goes is sometimes it's
a weird mind and a weird brain, But sometimes I think it has takes
me to that direction, like you know, to analyze things from a different
kind of perspective. And what if there is extenuating circumstances that we do not
know about because we're in this three D physical reality that whenever we get outside
of this three D physical reality, we actually get the full scope, in
the full picture, so then we voluntarily come back whether those extenuating circumstances or
are bad circumstances, or regardless if they're good or bad. Well, do
all spirits have physical bodies? I mean I went to Bible school, and
you know, we John writes about in the Book of Revelation, how the
one third of the heavens, you know, and if you go by his
number one thousand times a thousand times a thousand, then you know you're looking
at something like ten trillion angels that were created, and all of a sudden
they fail a third of them. That means there is roughly about thirty three
trillion angel fallen angels. Going with the concept, and did all of those
trillions of angels demons? Do they have physical bodies? Or is it that
there's another process that we're not fully understanding how consciousness manifest. I mean,
so if we're the only ones that are going through the physical birth again that's
finite. Well, then I think you kind of have to define what an
angel is. I mean, is it's like you're saying, as an angel
a physical entity, does it have a physical body? Is it an energy?
Is it electricity? You know what is an actual angel, and I
think that it's a that's a hypothetical and theological definition of what an angel is,
because I don't really think anybody really knows what an angel is well.
In the same way that you can interpret heaven as being a state of love
and compassion and hell as being a state of like betrayal and loneliness and heartbreak
and purgatory, is that transition between the two that means purifying. I think
you can interpret angels and demons in similar ways, Like if you were to
look at a lot of classical demons in the demonological lore, where you have
let's say asthmo dea who is he gives different things, like he can teach
you things, but he's usually rich, he can make you rich. He's
usually the demon of lust. So a person who is lust full is said
to be possessed by as Modeas. It doesn't mean that they're in need of
an exorcism. They're possessed by the spirit, if you will, of Asmodeus.
They're possessed by the idea of Asthmodeus. In the same way that you
know, we even talk sometimes politically about possession. We'll say people are possessed
by Marxism or possessed by ultra conservatism. It's the same possessed by power,
possessed by their wealth, their ideas. You know, we say ideas,
and like sometimes our thoughts are eating us alive, like the demons are inside
of a senus alive. I mean a lot of and same with angels too.
A lot of this stuff is a matter of we're personifying suffering or personifying
aspects of ourself that we can't I don't think, identify with otherwise, like
we project them externally. And another good example of this is where the word
exorcism comes from, because it has a similar route x orcism and ex er
size. So we say exercise demons. It's kind of a funny play on
words, but we literally exercise demons. Traditionally, demons would be possessed through
medical procedures, long before there was ever like a cannon sort of exorcism in
the church. The samurai would actually come into a home. These were the
famous samurai warriors, and if someone was possessed quote unquote, they would take
their sword and they would cut the air above the head to sever the connection
to the spirit. So the samurai performed exorcisms. You go back much further
than the samurai, and you find that people performed exorcisms in different ways all
over the world. They were people that were sick from an illness, some
sort of illness. We didn't know what it was, and so we said
that there was some spirit possessing them. And so they would usually do things
like playing music, which is harmony, which is balance and love and all.
Pythagoras talked about harmony being basically God. And when these things would the
music would be played, they thought that people could be healed and the demon
would leave the body. But the point of what I'm getting out here is
that sickness was usually seen as the possessing spirit, and we personified sicknesses as
different demonic entities, and when we exercised them, well, we still do
the same thing. We exercise to stay in shape. We also exercise to
keep our minds and our mental states in shape so that we're not possessed by
corrupting ideologies or ideas. Well, hopefully that's what we strive to do.
That so demons are in a sense, their diseases, their temptations, their
personifications of things, rather than physical entities. In the same way that we
can see heaven and Hell as personifications of states of mind. So I don't
think it's necessarily that there's all these different characters running around in some etheric realm.
But I do think that, without sounding like a new ager, there
is a universal I guess stream, let's say, of consciousness. And I
don't think that you can separate it and say that there's a billion or a
trillion of this, or that it's an infinite stream of consciousness let's say,
and we're all just individual segments of that or little pieces of that. How
many times have you read the law of one material right? Zero? I
respect myself too much to red But there is some aspect of that. I
think why that material is so popular because there's some aspect of that concept that
is probably universally true. I mean, like the idea of animism. That's
probably one of the oldest religious like beliefs or philosophies, that everything is animated
with a spirit. I mean, if you you go, it doesn't matter
where you look. If you look in like in the old Shamanic belief systems
or the Shamanic cults or whatever you choose to call them, you know they
kind of viewed everything as being I guess blessed with spirit. The animistic cults
believed everything had spirit. Same thing. Again, I practice Shinto. Within
Shintoism, there's kind of a universal idea, at least in Japan, there
is everything is alive, everything has a spirit, you know, even ordinary
kitchen utensils have a spirit. So it's interesting as well for myself. So
in the Gospel of Mark, if you study the book itself, it's it's
interesting because that is the primary book that introduced demons prior to the Gospel of
Jesus. Was not the one that we would think. But in the Gospel
of Mark and every village in town that he went into, the first thing
he did, before he even laid hands to heal the sick, he cast
out the demons. And then we have the demonac at the Dicopolis, that
where Jesus asked the man, He says, well who are you? And
the demon said, we are legion, meaning and of course the story goes
on that then that demons came out of him and hit into a herd of
swine, and they drowned themselves over the cliff. Lester Somraw's a guy I
studied under in my youth. But it's very interesting because prior to that,
in the Old Testament we had evil spirits. Saul was tormented by an evil
spirit, and David would play the heart and soothe his temperament. And so
again, the whole idea of demons within themselves a modern concept that we have
now propagated to a whole structure of occultism. It's a whole structure of religious
belief within itself. Yeah, well call it. The Plancy's Dictionary in Ferland
late eighteen hundreds really amplified that because it he depicted all the classical demons and
other I mean, it's a it's a dictionary, it's a encyclopedia, and
gave them book. By the way it is. I have a rare copy
of it. It's beautiful, lucky one. You know. You know that
book. So if anybody doesn't know that book, go try to find a
copy of it. Just look at it online. Huge, beautiful book,
very expensive, but all like a lot of the demons that we like that
that that we see depicted today, A lot of them, or I'd say
almost all of them are referenceable back to the Plancy's Dictionary. So that was
in like what the late what was it the nineteenth century? That so nineteenth
century. Yeah, a lot of them depict or just they're just like one
hundred and one hundred and forty years old something like that. They're not that
old, but like whatever we consider it, I mean, demon demons are
They come from the word damon, which again is right, divine ones,
right, which is part of you, which I think is where the idea
of the little angel and the little Devil on the shoulder come from. It's
really you. You have that angelet. And even Native Americans have this.
I don't know which tribes, if all tribes do. A lot of Native
tribes have this idea of the two wolves in whichever one you feed, which
when you feed, is the one that wins and gets strong. It's the
same thing. Do you feed the angel, listen to the angel, or
do you feed the devil? Or if you watch that, if you have
watched family guy Peter's got the devil on the shoulder or something's like where's the
other guy? A great joke that goes with that. It's a cute little
blond thing and then little prick. We'll keep this there. You ready,
there is the angel on Peter's shoulder, stuck in trap. That's unbelievable.
Always a good time on Riders show. That's all I got to say.
Yeah, so we have this, Uh we've covered a lot uh here today
covered I can't even see it in the rear view mirror. Any what are
we talking about? Demons? Demons play a big role into Hell, because
that's that's who's the tormentors, right, that's the whole idea. You get
sent to Hell, you're going to be tormented by the demons. Right,
Yeah, I just lost my train of thought on what reached me? Think,
well, what do the angels do for you in heaven? The seventy
two virgins, and you know, you get the idea, well, they're
all a but also a family guy or something said they were all man.
They just didn't know it. They were all like a bunch of nerds playing
World of Warcraft or some family guys. One of my favorite family guy skits
was whenever Peter goes and looks in the mirror and he's contacted by his one
of his ancestors that was black, and he asked him what's heaven like?
And then the ancestor says, well, there's a shortage of chairs. He
just disappears. But I've heard it said that demons give while angels take,
which I think is a very interesting consolet that if you're if you want to
tell the difference between an angel and a demon, you can tell by like
what it's doing. If you're being given something, then it's by a demon.
If something's being taken, then it's an angel. Which I think that
the concept of angels and demons have been flipped. It's just like I think
the concept of God and Satan or the devil or whatever personification you want to
use, Lucifer has also been flipped. They're the opposites. Those are totally
different characters, right, I mean, for heaven to be the opposite of
hell, heaven or vice versa, hell to be the opposite of heaven,
we could look at it that way. Hell couldn't also be a pit of
fire. Fire is light? Like you ask the most tale the Baptist missionaries
that where's hell again? We're bringing the family and everyone else. Yeah,
it's having the opposite, you know. The contrary is it's if you have
a place of fire and light, that's not the opposite of a place of
heat and light and beauty and hell. That doesn't make any sense. That's
purely a creation. But suffering and feeling like anger creates heat. You can
feel the heat when you get really angry. You can also feel the heat
when you get really you know, you feel really in love. You say
people are in heat or in animals in heat. It's the same kind of
a thing. We look at God and we look at these different definitions and
versions of God. Same thing with the devil. Like people say the devil,
Lucifer, and Satan are all the same character, They're not. Satan
is Hitan the adversary. You could interpret that as a necessary evil like Saturn
or chronos chronology time time is a necessary evil, death and resurrection, death
and rebirth. The accuser the devil, I mean, in simple terms,
the devil would be the inversion of life. So l I ve live.
Turn it around, it's evil at a D it's devil. Devil is d
e v I L reverse that it's lived, to have lived. The opposite
of to have lived is to die. That's evil. And then Lucifer is
this false light. So in the same way that you know, anger can
make you hot and love can make you hot. Both of those things are
also I think exemplified in the concept of Lucifer, because Lucifer is false light,
but there's also good light. In the same way, there's actually good
and bad darkness. Like good darkness, you could say, is the abyss
without the abyss or the beginning of everything when the spirit hovers over the waters
in Genesis. You can't create light if there is no darkness, and Manly
Hall argues that too. He talks about how there's a real darkness and a
fake darkness, and a real light and a fake light. So when you
start to look at it from that point of view, these are not all
the same characters. These are totally different characters, and they're kind of like
Heaven, Hell and Purgatory in a way because you have Satan who is kind
of hot, you have the Devil who is kind of cold in that ice
palace, and you have Lucifer, who's kind of lukewarm in between. It's
a very similar, almost trinity like concept. I think that's just that's my
view. Oh, even the Bible says that God, you know, Genesis
one to one, came from darkness. There was no light. It spoke
and it said, let there be light. I don't know who heard that,
but anyway, so by that, the very logic is is that whatever
this creative force was, it came from the void. The nothingness came from
the void. That's right, and that darkness is kind of like the necessary
evil to compare and contrast these things. I've also thought, this is my
opinion, and I wrote a book on this recently called Garden of Hallucinations.
I was thinking, you know, I've never done ayahuasca, but when I've
listened to other people who have done ayahuasca, and I've looked at paintings from
shamans, ayahuasca experiences sound really similar to Genesis. You're in a garden surrounded
by all these creatures, and as snake, who's half woman in the tradition
Lilith with the red hair, comes to you on a tree. And in
the ayahuasca experience, you're usually in a garden. There's a lot of animals
and snakes. It's very beautiful, and Mother Ayahuasca, who is half human
half snake, comes and talks to you. And from Genesis to Revelation Saint
John, there's a I mean, I've heard some people that I think would
be considered pretty reputable sources, like scholars talk about the idea that John was
maybe high on mushrooms when he wrote Revelation, right, there are a lot
of Yeah, So from Genesis to Revelation, you've got like an ayahuasca experience.
You've got like a amanita muscare mushroom experience. The Bible is very much
like a shamanic journey in a way, whether that's you know, internal in
you or an altered state of consciousness external of you or both. Isn't the
snake people but naga half human half's right one of them? Yeah, it's
India, I believe India. Yes, and you find them everywhere. They
got like the dragon dragon people in China, the rainbow serpent in Australia.
Yeah, even quits ocuadle is the plump serpent in in America, the plum,
the plume serpent, the origins of America. And it's esoteric meaning you
know, I could be off on that amoral like a mirror am. I
think it is Native Americans, right cuco Kan Yeah, and they have the
I mean they have the the adversary of quits. A quaddle is took to
capta is the god of illusions, very much like Lucifer. It's so you
have the same I mean, these concepts are universal. I think that we're
dealing with Honestly, I think all this, these mythological narratives and all these
like the ancient magical practices, the ritual magic practices that some people still do
today. I think a lot of it's just honestly psychology, like in the
same way that you have like astrology, and then astronomy comes out of astrology
alchemy, and then like biology and chemistry largely come out of more so chemistry
comes at alchemy. You've got like magic, like ritual ceremonial magic, and
psychology kind of comes out of ceremonial magic because that's what like the magical tools
like the wand and the sword represent your will, represents your mind that you
know. The pinnacle is the body, you know, the cup or the
cup is the pouring out of perhaps thought or consciousness. Different schools they assign
those two different elements like firewater, air, and earth. But it's really
just psychology. It's really it's a really and mythology itself is actually a form
of science because you're trying to catalog and figure out why things happen the world
and give names to them. Why does lightning come down from the heaven?
Why does it rain? Why is their wind? Why are their floods?
Why are their storms? You personify them, give them me. That's science.
Quite interesting to talk, Beau. I have a ton of ghost hutting
equipment, and one of my favorite ones is the SLS camera. And when
you're walking in the woods, it's quite interesting if you think I've seen this.
If you think something's going to scare you, you have this anticipating of
fear. It seems to radiate and manifest exactly that which you are thinking.
Whereas if you go in with the calmness and say, well, I'm going
to speak with the spirits, it amazes me how I can pick them up
on the camera. They become very proliferated within the trees themselves. But that's
if you believe in ghosts. Yeah. I think there was a science experiment
where a group of researchers actually created a ghost, like an agregoric ghost.
They gave it a backstory and gave it a name, and like all the
stuff and wild try and communicate with it, and then it would communicate back
with them. It just shows you that your thoughts and your ideas and your
beliefs create reality. Well, it says the children of Israel when they faced
the Philistines that they created go them the excuse me these clay figures that are
alive. I just forgot the word at the moment. What were the gollum
thought forms like the thank you, the tulpas and the or Paracelsus had a
weird name for them. I can't remember the name they were usually actually sometimes
they were so I think Paracelsus, the alchemist and physician and some of the
other old writers associated those like golams are tulpas or agrigors, which I think
is French. They associated those with the elementals, and actually Jock Folet talks
about them as being the little people, the little green men, which is
part of the UFO narrative as well. I mean, and the sylths,
which are the air spirits. I mean, they're basically like there's these creatures
that can fly through the air. They abduct you into like the fairies,
they take you to their world. So there's a correlation, without doubt between
everything from the elementals, which are associated with modern elements, modern elements,
carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, hydrogen, et cetera. And then all the
you know in UFOs, all the way back to what's that you brought up
just this article on our research group brought Philip the ghost to life, which
which was what I was talking about, and they gave it a backstory,
the fictional character and named it Philip, and they created this whole biography for
this entity and this in this ghost, and then they started to communicate with
him. So like when you're looking at that's an interesting story because when you
perform ritual ceremonial magic, let's say, and you do something that's more black
and you try to communicate with the demon or the devil and obtain something.
I mean, ultimately you're you're doing this with yourself, which is why black
magic can drive people mad and crazy. Like really dark you know, things
where you're doing really bad stuff will help you can talk about necessarily, but
like that kind of thing where you're asking for assistance or you're asking for something
from some some other entity, you're really talking to yourself. And that's why
you can drive yourself mad. That's why the demon in the myths or the
stories, the demon will try to kill you and break the contract. It's
really you driving yourself crazy. In the same way that when you see the
death tarot card, that means that you might actuly. You might actually have
a relationship that's ending, or you might have a job that's ending. Let's
say you can interpret it that way. But if you worry so much about
it, you might actually end up doing something that you wouldn't have done otherwise,
and you might end up dying because you were so afraid that you saw
the death tarot card. So if they can create a ghost and basically like
they can manifest this thing, it's the same thing when you're talking about the
spirit realm, or the demons or the angels, like these are things that
we can septualize, personify, and if we see them in a particular way,
then they can have an effect on us. That's what all the magical
works all about. Anyway, you know something, Ryannie, you were saying
that, it's exactly the same thing when I was in the ministry of Christianity.
Isn't that what you pray to God for? You want God to answer
your question, your prayer, your request, But there is an exchange that
is required. If you're in the occult, even if you're into a religion,
it's the same principle. I've told people this many times. My initiation
into the occult was thirty years in Pentecostal Christianity, because within the charismatic Pentecostal
movement there is more of what I would call occultism taking place in the ceremonies
than I've seen in any black magic or any other occult practices that I've seen
or read about. Let's tell people to go to a Catholic church. Well,
I mean you think about communion is a blood covenant, It's a blood
contract, the consumption of the flesh within itself. I mean the same thing
when you put someone in the middle and you form a prayer circle around them,
the same thing when you're going to lay hands on a person to receive
the Holy Spirit or to cure them to bring forth healing. All of this
is ritual magic. It totally is. I completely agree with you, and
in fact, I went to church recently. I went to a couple of
churches recently just to I haven't been a church as I was a kid,
and they're the first on you or anything like that, not burst into flames
or anything like that good. But the first day I was, the first
night I went. I want going every week, but the first time I
went, they were talking about the Witch of Indoor, which is like one
of my favorite stories. But then the like I went the other night and
they were talking about they were talking about marriage, but they had they I
forget exactly what the pastor was saying, but as he was talking, I
was thinking, like, this just sounds like magic. It just sounds like
some ceremonial ritual thing that you're doing. But if you do it in a
church setting, everybody's you know, shakes each other's hands and dresses nice,
and they're like, no, this is for God. It's like, well,
that's what you're doing, and it's ritual magic. You purify yourself the
baptism, you clean yourself, you wear nice clothes, you light the incense
and the oils the sophima gationation, and we pray to God, let let
this, they say, Let this Bible study, you know, fill us
with knowledge and wisdom from your great books. It's all this, we would
say, and we invite the Holy Spirit to come in and take command of
the meeting. Excuse me, I could put the you know whatever, Lucifer
in the front of that, you know, but that's really and we,
like you said, because it was in a church, it's completely legal.
Yeah, so to speak. And actually when you say when they say the
end of the pray or they say amen at the beginning to end, I
always tack on raw. Yeah, and raw not a woman, but am
a Monroe. See that's what always got me with Paul. You know,
Paul wrote in the Book of Acton he was in Ephesus, which was the
occult center of that time in that era. A lot of people don't know
Ephesus was known for that. And it's always interested me because Paul comes in
and he says, well, I saw your promenade where you had the different
gods that he had, and then he had one that was dedicated to God
that had no name, and he says, that's the God I serve.
Now. He said that in fifty yards across the way was a synagogue,
so Paul would have known the name of Jehovah. So who is this god?
Again? I know it extends all the way into what I how the
occult is so much or the religion is so much like the occult. I
don't know if this is similar to what are relevant to what you brought up
earlier, Wayne about how maybe the founders of Christianity in a sense like the
founders of Islam. There's a similar origin because in this there's an esoteric story
which you might be familiar with, the interpretation of Lucifer being cast down to
earth or from the heavens down to the land below, and that is the
moon God often depicted as or personified as Jehovah, casts the light because the
moon is the reflector casts the light of Venus Lucifer down to the earth.
So it's really like a physical thing where the light of Venus is cast to
the earth by the moon god Jehovah, but as a moon god Jehovah.
That's I mean, the moon is the centerpiece of Islam. I mean they're
I mean Allah, which is Arabic for God. I mean it is a
moon based religion. So it is the Hebrew calendar. Yes, it's moon
based, and that's why they it's and in fact, if you go to
Temple Square in Salt Lake City, they have the sun too, but they
have a lot of moons simply they have all the phases of the moon carved
into the main temple which is oriented west to east. Yeah, I mean
moon worship is a is a primary foundational element within all of human history,
which it's from erb the you know, which the Abrahamic religion. He was
a Samarian, but that's what his family were. They worked at the temple
for the moon goddess yep, and the moon moon goddesses. Now you find
the moon goddess in in ancient Japan too, they worship the moon goddess.
I believe Suki Yomi, which is my name name, yeah, Yomi,
is the Japanese underworld. So here again you have Suki Yomi, I believe.
I'm a double check that to make sure that's right. But you have
Asuki Yomi. Uh who is the who is the moon goddess? And double
check the name, Yeah, Suku Suko or Suku Suku Yomi. So you
can extract the underworld out of the name for the moon goddess. And that's
really what the moon is. The moon is a reflector of light, so
it is the in a sense that you have the as above so below hermetic
axiom here too, I think because you have the moon, which is essentially
reflecting the light onto the underworld when the when the sun, the black sun
is you know, goes into the underworld like Ross Chariot in the West,
and there's darkness upon the Earth, and all we get is that the reflection
of the moon. So the moon like the Sun. I mean, it's
not just sun worship, it's moon worship. And I think that gets overlooked
quite a bit. I smell a rat, yeah, And I think another
thing is like if you if you extract the name YopE me out of moon
goddess in Japan, it shows you that the moon is intimately associated with darkness
and with the underworld. That's and false light because it's the moon that casts
Venus or Lucifer down to the Earth. Didn't you see the black moon during
the eclypse Ryan? You mean the double moon in the double sun. Yeah.
I was talking to somebody. I was talking to somebody at my apartment
complex that when this was happening, and they said, they said, I'm
trying to find the moon and I said, well, it's some pretty sure
it's right there. And they said, no, no, no, they
said that's not the moon. They said there's another moon. I said,
I was like, I don't I genuinely have no idea what you're talking about.
They said, well, no, they I read someone online they said
that there's another there's like multiple planets, it's happening right now, and there's
like a fake moon. And I was like, what are you reading?
What are you talking? A bro? Well, that's probably what they were
getting at. Yeah, the super planet. Did you see people cutting these
videos? I'm sure you saw this writer where people like filming the eclipse or
something and then like the video clearly cuts, and then they have a they
have like the video of the moon. They're like, well, how's the
moon over there if it's supposed to be over here? And it's like they
clearly just cut these two videos together. They got like a million hits on
Youtubeer, all we all we have to do is lie, I guess,
just bring a little fear into it and get a little bit of the occult,
little bit of religion. You gotta. You got a best seller,
and if you don't believe me, you're going to hell. That's the way
it works. That's why I'm not as popular as I should be. Guys,
I can ask you both a question real quick. If you had to
define your philosopher lane, like what religion, philosophy? Like, what's your
outlook on life? Like I do practice Shinto. I think it's beautiful.
I'm not. It's not a dogma though, Like what do you guys practice?
Do you think? Do you have? Do you have an identification of
classification for yourself? Either of you? For myself? It's like Aristotle said,
I I realized that the one constant in my life is I don't know
anything. I have always been a person who gives praise and gratitude, and
as I have evolved, I don't know if you want to use that word,
it's probably as good as word as any. I give praise to the
one who created my consciousness. I don't know who or what that is,
but I do know it exists. I can't give it definition, but I
sing to it. I give gratitude and praise and thanksgiving for it, because
if it wasn't for that, I wouldn't be who I am. So that's
kind of where I'm at. Okay, what about you, writer? And
then I know you get to wrap it up. I was just curious about
this. Well, every time that I think that I one hundred percent for
a fact know something something. Later on in the future comes out and makes
me reevaluate my beliefs. So it's always a it's a changing it's an ever
changing thing and I and I think that's the beauty of it. The beauty
of it is that we can have these kinds of theosophical discussions and maybe change
our ideas and our beliefs and our views. I think that that's what makes
us so special here. And anybody that is locked into a strict dogma that
does not allow criticism, does not allow outside thoughts and ideas, in my
personal view, is the wrong way to go. I think that we should
always be open to different thoughts, ideas and beliefs and not be able to
and be able to change and edit our own personal thoughts, ideas and believes
when presented with new information. That's why people I never lie. I change
my mind a lot, but I never lie. I mean, all you
can work with is the knowledge that you have at the time, and once
we gain more knowledge, our ideas and thoughts and beliefs inevitably change, and
they should change. That's a part of the evolving nature of reality here.
I agree they should change. It's probably not good to be stuck in stuck
in ways, especially when it's some sort of dogma or doctrine that you're trying
constantly to defend. You find that's really hard to the date or converse with
people that do have that, because they're trying to defend their stance and when
you're not really even attacking it, nor are you presenting your own. Really,
I think some people have a hard time dealing with that. But maybe
before we go, Rider and I are going to be at the contact and
the Desert Conference, we should mention that again, that's coming up soon end
of May. Yeah, how can people get a hold of you to contribute
to that fund? Ryan? Yeah, we're actually I think we pretty much
made a most We're only like fifty bucks away or something. But you want
to find my content. Rdigable at yahoo dot com is my email if you
want to contact me. But the Secret Teachings like you see above here at
the Teachings dot info is my antiquated website, and there's an inbed player for
the free show archive. Uh, there's an RSS feed. And then of
course if you're interested in my books, a cult Arcana would probably be a
book you'd really enjoy, h that I think would be really in line with
what we talked about that I actually have a chapter on Heaven Helen Purgatory in
that book. So that's at the Secret Teachings dot info cult Arcana. Thanks
for having me on writer. Don't you love that? Ryan? Whenever I
just come up with something and don't even know that you've written about it and
we just have a conversation on it, It's beautiful. It happens all the
time. I love it. That stars that's we're connected. Thanks so much
for coming on. Ryan. Really appreciate you. Wayne. Where can people
find you online? Just over YouTube? Are Wayne Steiger? And thank you
Ryan. I'm gonna be adding to my library. I think you'd really really
enjoy it. We should actually do a show sometime of Life Too, Love
Too and our writer' I'm sorry, go ahead, no, go ahead.
That's I'm not actually a star seed. I'm more involved than I'm a star
sprout. My seat has sprouted, so I'm a stage ahead of you.
Well, I might have missaid I think I'm a star butterfly. Oh my
god, I'm evolved past that, not a monarch, right, because that's
mind people that the star then out of the butterfly. I turned into a
Star moth Man. Star moth Man. Well, thanks so much everyone for
being here. I really appreciate you guys, everyone in the chat and you
have the channel members and moderators out there. Nina, thanks for being here,
Lori, Scottie Boy, Candace, good to see you, guys,
Lost in Space, Deborah Silent Voice, and anybody else that contributed to the
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we will see you guys next time. Thanks everyone,