Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence, and is not intended for all
audiences. Listener discretion is advised. She was pleading with me to sash her
throat, Sasha rest do something, and I told her, no, I
can't do that to you. Good morning, good afternoon. How you doing.
If you're the type of person that usually skips the intro, you may
not want to do it this time because we have some very important messages about
the future of Sword and Scale. By the way, that's what you're listening
to. And this is season eleven, episode two hundred and fifty seven.
Here we go. Okay, so this is kind of important. We're launching
our new website and app soon. If you're a Plus member and you're listening
to this on an RSS feed, that feed will no longer work after this
episode. We're getting rid of RSS feeds for a number of reasons. Now.
RSS feeds are great for freely distributing audio, but they're not really made
for and really weren't intended for, premium, paywall protected content. Unfortunately,
they make it easy to pirate our content. Not to mention the fact that
podcast apps usually profit off of splashing a bunch of ads over content you've already
paid for anyway, So we want to curate that experience and bring it to
you all in one place in this beautiful new website and app. Oh and
there's also a sort of Scale TV which is debuting soon on it. So
look, we've spent over a year working to bring true crime fans this incredible
new community, and we want you to be part of it. So make
sure to head on over to Swordinscale dot com and download our new app when
it becomes available, and become a sasshole, make your friends jealous, be
better than everybody else. Puff your chest a little bit. There you go.
You ever hear that term cut the apron strings. It's a phrase that
encapsulates the idea of letting go. Every parent is aware of this idea.
I think it's part of life, allowing your children to grow up and become
independent individuals, hoping you made all the right choices and hoping they'll do the
same, much like a mother bird pushes her fledglings out of the nest and
onto the brave new world, encouraging them to learn to fly on their own.
Cutting the apron strings symbolizes the moment when parents must release their tight grip
on their children's lives. It's a significant transition from a state of dependency to
complete independence, from childhood to adulthood. If you would argue against allowing kids
to become independent and venture out on their own as they grow and mature,
it's a vital part of their development. It's necessary. This little push from
parents often creates young adults with solid self reliance, responsibility, and the ability
to make choices and base the consequences of them. It's a natural progression,
but it's worth acknowledging that sometimes this journey doesn't always end in a picture perfect
way. Parents are often forced to sit back and watch as their children make
the same mistakes over and over again. Trust me, I was one of
them. My poor mom. That woman's a saint. It's not always the
best thing for parents to swoop in and rescue their children from every emergency that
they may find themselves in. But sitting back to watch it all unfold,
knowing you just can't help, there's nothing you can do, it can be
heart wrenching. Many parents watch their children in the throes of addiction, for
example, knowing that their child must hit rock bottom before they finally decide to
make a change in their lives. All parents can do is sit back and
wait for this to eventually happen. Now, the story we're about to get
into isn't about drugs or addiction, but it's about a family who was forced
to watch their child continue to make dangerous decisions with no regard for the consequences.
This story, like many others, does not have a happy ending.
Sue Tayner was nervous about her twenty year old daughter, Jessica Sacko, living
on her own. Jessica wasn't moving out of her family home for the first
time, but she was moving back from Urbana, Ohio, after a relationship
in Florida took a bad turn. It was the start of twenty eleven,
and after returning from Florida, Jessica would be moving into her own apartment,
a duplex. Her mom, Sue agreed to help pay rent a mere three
hundred and sixty dollars a month for the unit. Urbana is about forty miles
west of Columbus. It's a small town with a little over eleven thousand residents.
Jessica's new apartment was in a small cream colored building. Two doors sat
side by side for each of the two separate tenants. The ripe bold age
of twenty may seem a bit old to be worried about sending your kid out
into the world, but Jessica was medicated her bipolar disorder and had extremely low
self esteem. These things, paired with her naive outlook on life and her
lack of experience, could result in disaster if Sue didn't keep an eye on
her daughter. After all, their relationship was already on a treacherous footing due
to Jessica's mental illness. Jessica had already showed own her repeated poor choices and
friends and in men, but Sue didn't want to push Jessica away even further.
Sue didn't want to be bugging her all the time or sharing too many
opinions about how she thought Jessica would be living her life, so she towed
a careful line. Soon after Jessica got settled into her new one bedroom unit,
she began seeking out new friends, but because of her lower social latitude,
Jessica found it easiest to make new friends through Facebook. Her profile read
this, I'm very outgoing and sweet, kind hearted, caring, passionate,
compassionate, and I love learning new things. I love animals and going to
the beach and taking a walk. I like cooking good and delicious meals.
In my spare time, I like to read, write down my thoughts and
my poetry. I love playing video games and doing puzzles. I'm also family
oriented. I love kids, and I love helping others. Maybe in an
open year to people is what makes me a good person. I'm an understanding
person as well, and try to help solve problems. I'm talented and intelligent
too. I do not take bullshit, and no drama or whining. You
cross me, you will wish you never did. If you don't, you're
good. Well that escalated quickly. Jessica's grade school and high school friends recall
that Jessica was bullied a lot, but she was too shy to stand up
for herself. Now that she was an adult and she had the Internet and
social media at her disposal, she could create a facade of confidence and strength,
because we all know that that's what social media does for us. Right
At first, Jessica tried several dating sites, but nothing really panned out,
so she began putting more and more of her time and energy into Facebook.
Soon enough, Jessica connect with a young man named Matthew Puccio. Matthew was
a twenty four year old dude who lived in Texas and was a self proclaimed
juggalow. Now these folks, we've talked about them before in other episodes.
You may have heard of them, but just to give you another rundown.
The term juggalo or Juggallette for women is used to describe the dedicated inner fan
club of the hardcore hip hop group called Insane Clown Posse or ICP for short.
They perform what is called horror core, a form of hip hop that
includes themes of the supernatural, occult, and psychological horror in their lyrics.
Think music for Jerry Springer fans. Here's Matthew's childhood friend, a guy named
Andrew Forney, also a self proclaimed juggalaw. I was born here. Mister
Fritchier was born in Montana, moved there when he was about five years old.
I met him when his family started going to the church that I was
going to, and then we were in elementary school together as well. Before
they reached middle school, matt moved away and he and Andrew lost contact until
about twenty ten. I was filled in on a story later on. I
did not know where he went at the time that he left. What I've
been told is that he moved to Banning, California, lived with his dad
and stepmother for a little while. He said that after he lived with them
for a little while, he ended up getting moved into a group home until
he was eighteen. He claims some incarceration during that period of time as well.
After he turned eighteen, his brother, who was in the Air Force,
moved him out to Virginia and he lived there for several years, and
she's moved around a few more times since then. Matthew had been shuffled around
all his life and continued those nomadic tendencies into adulthood. Just like Jessica's tone
shifting Facebook bio, Matt's bio said this, I believe in God, Shanngry
Law, and the Dark Carnival. I am a proud father of four wonderful
kids. I may not open up right away with people because they usually don't
ask the right questions. My life is an open book, but I don't
mention my life story unless it's a person in need or fam that needs help
keeping their hatchet high. I'm a thirteen year old wicked clown who takes the
psychopathic views, beliefs, and music very seriously, and if you don't like
it, then you can fuck off. I'm honest and blunt, but very
true to the woman I love. I don't play petty high school bullshit.
So if you expect sympathy over some dumb shit, you may not get it
from me unless I know you well enough to swing a hatchet for whoop whoop
mmf w K cl which, in case you're wondering, stands for much motherfucking
wicked clown love. Yeah, that's what we're dealing with, folks. And
about that, uh whoop woop yeah, help me out brother woop woo to
marry Yeah, that's the Juggalo mating call. I guess we can't really be
sure. It's really confusing. We should get David Attenborough in here to explain.
By the way, Jessica was enthralled. The two quickly connected over bands
like Corn Cross, Fade, and of course, insane clown Posse, who
once again do not understand how magnets work. I'm not kidding, look it
up anyway. Jessica clearly an emotionally immature person quickly took the honorable role as
Juggallette and began referring to Matt as her Juggalow husband. The clip you're about
to hear isn't Jessica herself, but a young woman from the exact same time
period in which Jessica was becoming involved in the Juggalo subculture. As far as
it goes, first, all you know my opinion on what diyoglou let minghoos,
thumbwall collar and someone who don't give a book, you know, so
you know, people who are kind of outpassed, never really got along with
them, but they don't really care. A big family browcast before it is
in case you couldn't understand her, she said that ICP is basically a big
family for outcasts. Just a few months after Jessica began talking with Matt Puccio
online, he made a trip from Texas to visit her in Urbana, Ohio.
The two hit it off romantically suddenly on Facebook, Jessica was a lifelong
Juggallette and Matthew was her Juggalo husband. It was official Facebook official when fall
was turning to winter of twenty eleven, Jessica's family noticed a shift in the
way she was interacting with people online. Because Jessica was the kind of person
who posted her every thought and feeling on Facebook, it was easy to see
when something was awry in her life. Just a year prior, in twenty
ten, Jessica's Facebook posts were of statuses like this, My life was so
bad back in the days when I was young and stupid, restless. Now
I live for God, and as I turned my life around, I think
of how I was back in the day, and I thank God my sister
and my brother in law and Jake and Leah for being there for me through
thick and thin. Thanks guys, love you all. But by the time
the holiday season of twenty eleven rolled around and Jessica was in the throes of
her new relationship with Matt Puccio, her statuses and comments began to look more
like this, Today was a pretty fucked up day. A good friend of
mine was a whore and tried stealing my fiance, but him and I took
care of the drama and told her to lose our numbers and excuse my language,
but I'm still mad at her. But it is what it is.
And it's just petty that she is. Misty is a whore and needs to
mind her own damn business, and she needs to die and keep to herself
and quit causing drama. Anyways, I'm happy and she ain't, so woop
woop. The very next status said, well, my days just keep getting
more complicated to explain, and yesterday, the day before that really caught me
off guard. So last night I bought a bottle of good wine and a
couple of beers and got drunk at home, and my life was peachy keen.
So all I can do is just say wow and fuck my life?
What should I do? God? Please help me overcome my fears, and
please tell me what to do. I need you right now more than my
own kid and everybody else. Please forgive me whoop to all my lows and
lets. Given that she was basically pretending to be married, using online slurs
and publicly wishing people dead, Jessica's mother began to suspect that she may be
off her medication, you think, and to make matters worse, she had
a sneaking suspicion someone was living with her daughter. This was not part of
their agreement. When Sue originally told jess she would help pay rent and get
her on her feet. When Sue drove over to Jessica's house to confront her
one day, when altercation ensued. Apparently Matthew, also bipolar surprise Surprise,
had convinced Jessica to get off of her medication. At the end of their
screaming match, Sue asked Jessica if this is what she truly wanted, and
Jessica said yes, so Sue left disappointed. If Jessica wanted to be on
her own with this quickly boiling pot of problems, then so be it.
Twenty one year old Jessica Sacho had recently secured her own one bedroom apartment in
Urbana, Ohio with the help of her mother, suit tainer. Jessica was
trying to get back on her feet after a messy breakup and had to struggle
her whole life to choose and keep good friends and boyfriends. Jessica was medicated
for bipolar disorder, and her mother knew how she could get if she went
off her meds, so it was important for Sue to keep an eye on
her adult daughter. By the holidays of twenty eleven, Sue had begun to
distance herself from Jessica after confronting her at her apartment holed up with Matt.
During that visit, not only did she confirm that Jessica now had a roommate,
but she was calling this guy her husband and he had convinced her to
get off her bipolar medication. Fast forward to Thursday, March twenty ninth,
twenty twelve, Sue had become very concerned about her daughter after realizing she hadn't
heard from her in seven days. When Sue went to Jessica's Facebook page,
she saw that jess hadn't posted a status since March twenty second, exactly seven
days prior. The most recent statuses on Jessica's timeline were alarming, to say
the least. On March nineteenth, she wrote this, tired, frustrated,
feeling like shit, crying and feeling like I'm not worth anyone's time. All
I'm doing is just digging myself a hole and I need to get out of
it quick, So I need to focus more. But all what I'm dealing
with and going through isn't helping none. So time to get rid of things,
stress, anger, frustration, etc. Were walks and exercise The most
recent status on March twenty second read pissed off beyond belief, but yet I'm
super calm. That's when I'm in a very snappy and dangerous mood. This
is when I need a bottle of wine and a hug and a girlfriend to
spend time with. Board Send me your best bottle of red wine, smiley
face. Sue decided to drive over to Jessica's apartment and make sure everything was
okay. When she got there, no one answered the door. It was
locked, so she let herself in with the spare key. I mean,
she had paid for it after all. As soon as she pushed the door
open, a decaying stench hit her like a brick wall, assaulting her lungs.
As the outside light hit the dark and dank apartment, Sue could see
the disaster inside. Flies buzzed all around the room. Maggot's rawled on crusty
food, stuck on dirty dishes. The carpet was stained and crummy. Disposable
cups and bottles were toppled over every surface. Boxes, a lamp, but
TV and other clutter was pushed into the far right corner of the room.
It was just an absolute train wreck of course, this scene also included the
obligatory mountain dew bottle. You'll always find one of those around when there's a
juggalos. Sue made her way through the debris, covering her nose and looking
for her daughter, but it was pretty obvious that no one was home.
Sue came upon the bathroom door, tried to open it and found it locked.
She looked through the crack under the door to see if anyone was in
the bathroom, but it looked empty. She left. It wasn't until the
next day that Jessica's landlord went inside and got the bathroom door open. Well,
it turns out that Jessica was inside. After all, she'd been in
the bathtub, something that Sue would not have been able to see from her
vantage point. Jessica was dead, and she had been murdered in a most
gruesome way. Shocking revelations about a gruesome murder in Urbana where a woman was
dismembered. Now five people were arrested, and our Jessica Heffner spoke with a
woman who said she took some of those suspects in, claiming the killing was
in self defense. She's now alive with us with more Jessica Well John Paul.
We're still waiting for three of the people accused in this Urbana murder to
be brought back to Champagne County, but talking with one of the accused friends,
she said the victim's ex boyfriend killed a woman to protect himself, and
two of his friends were apprehended in Hamilton Walling Court. Today. I met
with a friend who said the three stayed with her before being arrested. She
asked us to hide her identity, but told me Puccio said he killed Raysaco
in self defense because she plans to kill him. She also told me why
he said he dismembered her body. He just said that he did that just
to making it where it couldn't really be found, because you know, he
scared for his life. Like I said, that boy wouldn't really even hurt
a fly. By checking the Facebook pages of each of the accused, we
learned that they're all members of the Juggalo family. It's a hybrid gang.
The FBI has it has its ion and as a woman and fellow member told
us today at court, the ex boyfriend of the victim was believed she wanted
him dead, so he acted first. Police say. Jessica Raysaco had been
dead for eight days when they found her dismembered body in a bathtub in Urbana.
Police moved quickly collecting evidence and arrested five people the next day. By
looking at the victims on Facebook page. On the day of her death,
she said she was angry but calm. We also learned she considered herself a
member of the Juggalos, a rapidly growing gang according to the FBI. So
was her ex boyfriend Matthew Puccio and four others accused of killing her. Maybe
he admitted to what he actually did. Yeah. Puccio was arrested in Hamilton
along with two others this weekend. In court today, we spoke with his
friend, a fellow Juggalo named Linda. She didn't want us to show her
face, but said she allowed Puccio to stay with her after the alleged murder.
She told us Sacho threatened to kill Puccio when they broke up, so
he decided to take her out first. That's why she says he shouldn't be
in jail. I think that they should allow him to go. I mean
that boy, he wouldn't even hurt a fly, you know. The only
reason why he did it was a self defense. If I was said,
I would have probably done it too. Oh wow, there's a lot to
unpack there. The news anchor said that five people were arrested for Jessica's murder.
You may be wondering how on earth police unraveled what actually happened here and
tracked down all five suspects so quickly. Well, let's rewind back to Jessica's
falling out with her mother, Sue toward the end of twenty eleven. Shortly
after Sue discovered Jessica was no longer taking her bipolar medication, jess and Matt's
blazing romance turned into a foursome. Matt invited another couple in a similar scenario
to move in. They were nomadic, living off of Social Security, disability
and or unemployment. You know us. Anyway, they needed a place to
stay. Oh and they were Juggalos too. The man was Matt's longtime friend,
five year old Andrew Forney, bringing with him his wife, twenty five
year old Kansas. I've moved around a few times myself. I left California
in two thousand and six. I went to Galina, Kansas. I was
living there with my brother and grandmother. I moved to Hawaii in I believe
it was November of two thousand and six. I moved back to California in
October of two thousand and seven. I lived in California until March of two
thousand and eight, at which point I moved back to Galina, Kansas and
lived with my brother for several months. I then moved into o Sage Beach,
Missouri. Lived there was back and forth between there and my brother's house
for a little bit. I left Missouri to move up to Michigan in June
of twenty ten. I lived up in Michigan with my mother in law and
her husband until December of last year, at which moved in with Matts and
Chess. Remember this was a one bedroom apartment. The front door opened up
to a small living room, the kitchen was back toward the left with a
hallway separating it from the living area, and the single bedroom was off to
the right hand side of the kitchen, next to the only bathroom. It's
hard to imagine Jessica willingly allowing all of these people to move in to that
tiny little apartment. So at this point Matt had moved in with jess Matt
hadn't seen his friend Andrew in about a decade, and he had never met
Andrew's wife, Jessica had never met either of them until they came down for
Thanksgiving of twenty eleven. Here's Candace talking about the first time she and Andrew
met Matt and jess in person. It was just great Thanksgiving and we were
trying to figure out if we're lived own her. I don't know who offered
it was mad or Chess at time, but all I know is that we
were going down there to see how things would be. Did jess know that
these people weren't just visiting for Thanksgiving but were scoping out or place to see
if it was a good place for them to live. I don't know,
but I'm guessing probably not. In all likelihood it was Matt who offered Jessica's
apartment to the forties. What was jess going to say? What was she
going to do? Andrew and Candace were fellow Juggalos, They had nowhere to
go, and Matt probably used this to guilt Jessica into saying, yes,
how could you possibly let your fellow Jugglos and Juggallettes go hungry? And homeless.
Jessica, you monster, you absolute piece of trash. So anyway,
the first time Andrew Forney and his wife Candace came down to Ohio to meet
Matt and Jess, they stayed for a week, then they drove back up
to Michigan, grabbed all of their stuff, and drove right back down to
Jess's apartment in Urbana, Ohio. They just moved in, just like that.
It wasn't long before it became clear that this many personalities stuffed into a
very very tiny space only a couple hundred square feet in size, was not
going to work at first to get along. But then we started and them
alive. But Jes smidt get along very well. I try, I I
don't know what happened. So the friendship side between you and Jess fell part
once you guys moved back down here. How long hadn't been? How long
would you say you guys were friendly until it started to earning back about I
think a week when we moved back down. Okay, with four grown adults
living in a one bedroom apartment full time with no jobs, things were bound
to get a little bit tense. The few bits and pieces you've heard thus
far are from Candace and Andrew's post plea interviews. These interviews stipulate that you
must tell the truth or your plea deal is off the table. Now we'll
hear from everyone, just after police found them using cell tower records hiding in
a home in Hamilton, Ohio. This will be fun. Here's the man
we've all been waiting for. What is Matthew put? I mean, is
it Matthew or okay? M A T t A, Okay, Matthew's William
start tours? Okay, start CC Matthew star with two rs. By the
way, Puccio, what a name? How are you again? What's a
good address for you? I don't know, it's just the wa in arena.
I was just putting Hamilton for now? Is it is the house where
you were at three eighteen North Lell Street? So you you moved in there?
Yeah? And tell them the place and situated. We got the other
one again, well, I used to have four of them divers me,
so I'm trying to get the felis where's that at Texas? And then her
really puts a team what happened there? She died of her but furr Artery
in the print and was he here that happened? Do you know, Dad?
I would call that that's rough. And then Jacob my son, his
mom shook him too hard and he's dying from bleeding from the print. Where's
he at Texas as well? It's the same. Wow. So and all
that has been going on since this sure a lot of stress high and it
doesn't help to any of my medicine. What kind of ads take on a
psychotics? How long they do that? Since I was fifteen? What's the
high trade? You completed at school? Two years of college? So you
got fourteen years time? Where's your college at the University of Phoenix? Accident
Brant, It's just deal online program, reige made in business administration. That's
just what was happening. Okay, And I'll say ID two right now.
I'm not sure I came in in the middle list. All right. I
declare that the following statement is made of my own pretty will, without anyone
having promised me anything or offered out to me any hope of reward. And
I maybe the statement without any fear of physical harm, without anyone having offered
to do me any favor, and without anyone promising me leniency. I've heard
the stay that I am able to read and write the English language and have
completed fourteen years of school. Now I do feel from my life about this
from us my cousin, No, no, no no, they're saying,
we're not faring going to kill you. Who's your who's your cousin? To
to tell them all field? What's his name? What's wrong with him?
He's the one who ordered me to do all of this because there was a
text message that was sent to my phone that was afforded from the jest putting
the head on me, and he told me if I didn't do it,
he was gonna kill me. Why would Why would you put it out of
here? You know he did it? Just it? Why would you just
put it hit out here? I don't know. She so she was so
mad at me. She just wants me dead, and she knows the people
to do it. Who is who is the people? This year? I
don't know? So how does your how did your cousin find her about?
That? Makes your friends? We're talking with him and they afforded him the
message, and then he afforded to me, where's that? Where's few of
that? Sister? Right now? He fled the country because of this.
Okay, all right, let me and and and I don't know everything he
talked about, but here's what we just started hearing. As you're he just
like go to the next page or when you think you're the last phase started
there. The cop is like, okay, I smell bullshit right off the
bat. Matt was claiming he was related to the quote godfather of the Italian
Mafia. Interviews with other members of this rag tag household would eventually paint a
clearer picture of what was going on. A man named Christopher Wright and his
girlfriend, Sharon Cook were of particular interest. Christopher was in his thirties,
and boy was he a talker. What came as a shock to everyone in
the investigation was that Christopher and Sharon had only just met the rest of the
gang a few days prior to Jessica's murder. But they were there, and
they obviously helped to try to cover it all up. Are you from New
Jersey? Yes? Okay, I moved from Jersey to Ronald Okay, okay,
from originally from Jersey. I got married him around and came to more
Snell and just I need three and fifty to start the process in like two
thousand. Wow for I guess lawyer's fast. Yeah, cheaply smoked. All
right, what's your full name? Christopher Joseph Right? W rg st.
Okay, here's what's going on. I need to talk to you about this.
I figured that. Yeah, yeah, I got one thing to say.
I don't mind telling you what I heard, what was done. I'm
just afraid for me and my girl. I get what I'm saying. You're
afraid he's gonna come back yet. Let's just put it this way. After
all this was done, he said that was number two hundred and thirty six.
Okay, and that's I think that's bullshit. But if you take somebody's
life that you still called loved with love, what am i? He's locked
up? All right? Well, yeah, we get all I'm saying.
What am mine? Right? I'm like, right, that's that's the only
thing I don't mind helping. Well, he's got that right. He'll help
anyone out with anything, including dismembering and disposing of a body. Like we're
here. I just want to find out your sight of it. I just
talked to your girlfriend. She told me what happened. She's not rest or.
I'm gonna am I going to be arrested for this. I'm gonna tell
you this. Here's here I got. I gotta talk to you, and
then I gotta call him. I got was going on. I don't know
what else going on yet. Translation. Yes, you're going to be arrested
for this, but if we tell you that, then you won't cooperate give
us the information we need to put you away. So well much start from
the beginning. Basically, we was at the library. I met Andrew and
his wife Candice. We were talking. We're all we're all listen to v
so I haven't had to a ICP on my arm. He says, so
you're a job and I said, we'll not like I listened to music.
I like him. I want to consider myself, but I guess because I
listened to what they considered it. So we started talking. They said,
oh, Matt, you get along just fine with He listens to ICP continuously.
So they a library. Ah, the library one place where people can
loiter and not get kicked out. A masturbatorium for the homeless. This is
the spot Andrew Forney, his wife Candace, and Matt usually went to trash
talk Jessica and come up with half baked quote unquote business plans like growing tobacco,
rolling cigarettes and shipping them up to New York where they could be sold
for a higher price. Real you know, cutting edge genius shit. You
know. Anyway, by the time Andrew and Candice moved into Justice apartment,
her and Matt's relationship already had problems. Once Matt's friends arrived, they kind
of ganged up on Jessica, deciding collectively that she was annoying, even though
it was her place. They were together, you know, before we got
there. They continued to be a couple until early February. At that point
it started to be an on off thing, and then by the end of
February it was just off. Did just want you out of the apartment?
Yes? And no. I mean it was one of the weird situations where
we wanted to move out because the strain of having a broken up couple in
the house is hard on everyone. They would argue a lot tempers with flair,
and it wasn't healthy for anyone. I mean, emotionally speaking, it
wasn't healthy for anyone. What were they already to go about anything like thered
about money. Occasionally they would argue about my wife and I being there,
but it was guests who invited us to be there to begin with, and
then she changed her mind later on, at which point we didn't have any
place that we could go to when we moved out of my mother in laws.
It's actually her husband who owns the house, and he had said,
when you guys moved out, that's it, you know, moving back.
So if she had kicked us out and we couldn't get an apartment or anything
local, we had nowhere to go to. When did you meet Chris Wright?
And sure, I'd say probably four days before then. We met them
at the library in Ravana. You who's at the library with you? Because
me and my wife were there and we ran into Chris and Sharon. You
know the layout of the Urbana library, No I don't, but okay,
describe the computer room that soon closed that has five computers in it. My
wife and I were in there, Chris and Sharon came in. Chris saw
I was playing a particular Facebook game that he also plays. He asked me
how I was doing so well in it when he was having trouble. I
gave him some pointers. We started talking and then I saw he had a
tattoo on his arm that was an insane clown posse related and I said,
hey, you listen to IZP. He said, well yeah, we started
talking like that. We decided we wanted to try to hang out with him,
so we left the library and we went back to the house there.
You know, we told Matt that we met this guy and you know,
he likes ICP and all that stuff. And he's like, well, are
they still there at the library, And he said, yeah, they should
be. They still had a good hour left from the computers. So he
came with us. We drove back to the library. They were just getting
ready to leave. We started talking and yeah, so you talk with him
there, and then you guys went and got Matt and then brought Matt back
to the library so that they can meet. It's like, I can't remember
if the first time I went to their place or if the first time I
went back to Jess's place, but the first time we had them over was
when they met Jess. What did they think of Jess? She was kind
of mixed reaction really at the one. On the one side, they say,
well, she seems nice enough, but there were certain mannerisms of hers
that got on their nerves. Jess liked to get really close to people and
touched them up without permission, like a hand on the shoulder and stuff like
that. She ended up doing that to Chris, like sitting next to him
with a hand on his shoulder and was talking to him, and it got
Sharon upset. She you know, didn't say anything right then, but when
when Jess went back into the bedroom, she said, Man, I hate
it when she does stuff like that. Here's Chris's recollection of the first time
they all met. I maybe like half an hour later. I think they
came by us and we wanted to show them me met so I'll always hoped
to meet, you know, new people. All made people let her.
So they came to the library and said it an hour later, we just
went and we met and he's telling us that he's Sicilian, and they girl,
Jessica, I'm trying. It's just a lot of shit happens for a
week. Jessica and I didn't like her, but I wouldn't put it,
you know what I mean. I want to do nothing like that to my
worst end. I mean, I got to like her. She just too
touchy. My girl was upset about because she always used to do this,
and I tell her she won't listen, but that would be no reason for
you know what I mean. Him and her kept parting. He kept telling
her it was her apartment. But he was talking about trying to start up
the family, like an Italian family or whatever it was, and that he
wanted people in it, my girl, me Andrew Candace, you know,
to start it. And I was like, I'm Italian. I had a
choice way back then to be part of it. He wanted me to be
his captain. I guess let me. He wanted to be the dome,
which is bullshit? Or don't you don't just get that. I don't know
if you know anything at the times, you work it way up, You
don't just make that's just like any of these little so called chet gangs they
have out of here, or you had to work your way up. According
to the group, three or four days passed and the five of them hung
out at Jess's house and at the library, all while talking about how annoying
they thought Jess was. What were you guys saying about Jess at that time?
Well, we said, look, this is Matt's x, it's her
place. So she sets rules we have to you know, live by them
basically, And we said that we were trying to get our own place to
you know, be able to get away to talk about how you wish she
wasn't around or your guys as light. That was the whole point of moving
away with we wouldn't have to deal with her anymore. Well, I think
more long lines of talk about river or killing her at that time, possibly
in a joking manner, to carry around a bial of like almond alu or
something like that on an extract that you said that, you know, you
could simply get rid of her by putting that in her drink, and she
even Okay, so you said that when I had actually had that for a
couple of weeks and just never done anything with it. Well understand that.
But you told you told Chris and sharing that though, right, Yeah,
did you talk about that with Matt too? I didn't tell him that I
had it. He knew that she was allergic to on an extract. So
yeah, so you guys, you know, sounds to me like maybe you
guys had somewhat been contemplating some of that up to that point. Definitely not
seriously, is it comment for someone to carry all my extract that in their
pocket. No, no, it is anyway, So you would agree with
this, that's not a common thing, okay. And if someone is potentially
allergic to something and there are comments being made that you'd like to ever kill,
like to get rid of her, liked to something like that, you
could see and then that person still ends up debt. You could see where
we could be in a position to think maybe there was some more discussions about
that. It's correct. Yeah, But at the same time, Matt was
allergic to peanut butter. We had peanut butter in the house all the time.
We had candies with peanut butter all the time, and we joked at
him whenever one of the person had a racis. We'd say, hey,
look it's chocolate death. But you would laugh at it. But you didn't
carry that around in your pocket, and you would joke with him about it.
You weren't joking with jests about having many elements in your pocket and showing
her and how word Actually one time, yes, I did. We saw
a ball, you know what, cheese ball. It was almond and something
else. She said she was allergic too, and I said, hey,
look it's a little bottle of death. And she started laughing, and I
said, yeah. When I shood, I pulled the thing out of my
pocket, said hey, look it's a little bottle of death. And she
started laughing at her. Why would you carry that around your pocket? I
don't know, honestly, as a joke. When did you start carrying it
around in your pocket? I can't remember if it was late January or if
it was mid February. It was it was right about the time they started
to go on again off again. I know that at that time I was
really upset with her, And I'm not exactly sure what Poochi himself said.
I know that he took Chris aside and went Thomas Street and talked to him.
I heard something to the extent of where he was trying to see if
maybe Chris could do something about it as to take care of her. And
what do you mean take care of her? What do you mean to kill
her? Go a little bit more into that. What do you mean besides
we understand what you mean to take care of it? You said you had
heard something along What exactly did you hear? Who was around that conversation?
I heard him say that he was going to try to see Chris could kill
her and so that he you know, as an initiation to his little moth
or family. What day would that conversation have that made this The day after
that we first met Chris, So Tuesday, the day of the actual murder,
nothing truly significant happened. The group had just reached their limit with Jessica,
and Matt decided to do something about it himself. The crew seemed totally
comfortable discussing the possibility of a murder, so if he did it and asked
for forgiveness later, perhaps they'd be willing to help him deal with the aftermath.
He knew this would be a multi person job. Saw like whatever,
So half the stuff he was saying about that, I don't believe sometime.
I don't think it was that night that night and met him. We stayed
a couple of nights there. We slew them the floor. I don't know
exactly what. I can't tell you what day that he called me in a
room he had a problem with her. I guess out back he understpd a
message from Giovanni from Sicily as she was trying to get him killed. Don't
out your it was I seen the message on his home, but I don't
know your what it was, basically something that from an email. It was
an email message that I can't take that anymore. I don't even know if
it was from her, so I don't know, but that came through.
Then him and her went the back room to talk with the door shut.
Me Andrew canvas and sharing her up in the front room, I was playing
all the two desktop computers that were up there. I'm never The only information
I have on their arguments after they left front room is secondhand, all right.
As far as what was happening in the living room, it was,
you know, all six of us were in the front watching movies and stuff
on the computers. Jess was wanting attention, and he wanted to take him
into the background to talk, and he said, look, we have guests.
I don't really feel like going back there right now. She got upset
and went into the room a little while later he followed her in and they
were in there talking for a while. So the only thing I have on
what they were talking about or arguing about, is second hand from Matt through
letters that you probably already have. This whole story is so convoluted surely with
five different versions, detectives could sift through and uncover something close to the truth.
As per usual, the group of them were apparently in the front room,
communicating only through text message. When Chris got a text from Matt to
come into the back room. He called me in the room. There was
there was a whole year with a pole of blood. Her shirt was lifted
up like under moves. There was a pull of blood. Assist. I
told you if I Ranvera from my it myself. And she's sitting there.
She's feeling cold and this and that. She's barely talking like she wasn't really
she was talking more to him. And when I see the blood, I
have a weak's stomach. That got me really crazy. So I left the
room. He called me back and I came back in and she was going,
I guess, going in and out, like not of consciousness. But
she was just rambling. You couldn't understand what she was, you know,
like I'm talking to you now you can hear the words out of my mouth.
I couldn't make half the sentences she was saying. So he told me
that he said something about he goes the only reason I did. He's telling
her everything he's doing. The only reason that I stabbed you that wasn't to
put you out of your misery. He told her that. He said that
was just to make you weak. And I don't get that one, but
but he told her to make her weak. Then he says, I going
to put a bag in suffragaged to the room because I'm not. First off,
I almost yet Matt did as he said he would, putting a bag
over Jessica's head to suffocate her. She fought him, ripping the first bag
open, so he covered her head with a second bag until she was no
longer moving. I should have called you, guys, and I was,
honestly, I was afraid. He already suffered with a knife. Once,
what's the same, You guys will maybe there and I'll be the second one
later there, you know what I mean? I got six kids plus possibly
the way they said, she's not what I think she is. Ah,
yes, the old I have to look out for myself because my children need
me. Excuse where are these children anyway? Definitely not with their dad.
So when you leave the room, we hear a little bit, I guess
muffled boys. I mean I started talking. No, I think like her
being a suffocated or whatever. I didn't know what it was exactly. I
didn't know if he did something different whatever. Supposedly he coached her and put
the bag over her own head. Do you think she was in any kind
of shape to do that? The love that she had for him possibly mean,
I don't think. I don't think she physically could have done that.
She was the way she was right here, I don't think so. Like
she was just laying on the bed, like like she wasn't moving much.
Her head was moving, But I don't think she'd actually have the strength to
put a bag and hold it. And plus if I don't myself just to
get a buzz, put my hands there to make myself do it, you
don't, you don't go out, you'll let gofore it. So he's and
he hitched. I guess scratches on his arm from her fighting. I guess
back then he called us in the room, me, my girl, Andrew
Candice all seen in the bag tightly, you know, just she's laying there
lifeless. We're kind of bag and talking about Walmart bag or Prace right bag
one of a little white plastic bags. Sure, I think it was a
white plastic bag could have been clear. I don't think it was clear though,
and it was just wrap. Eventually he's talking to her when she's not
there anymore, saying, he goes, I told you I got to take
you out, and you know and this and that. I'm like, oh,
fuck, Now I'm necessary. I don't want to be, but I'm
in the house. Now I'm necessity. I didn't call the cops, I
said. Oh. Remember Chris Right and his allegedly pregnant girlfriend Sharon Cook had
only just met the others a few days prior, and now they were going
to be intimately involved in helping to cover up a murder for their Juggalo friends.
On March thirty first, twenty twelve, just one day after twenty one
year old Jessica Seco's landlord discovered her partially dismembered body in the bathtub of her
apartment, five suspects were arrested in connection to the crime. Urbana police had
in their custody twenty five year old Matthew Puccio, twenty five year old Andrew
Forny, twenty five year old Candace Forny, thirty eight year old Christopher Wright,
and twenty five year old Sharon Cook. Matthew Puccio was charged with aggravated
murder, felonious assault, felony, gross abuse of a corpse, misdemeanor of
abuse, use of a corpse, possession of criminal tools, and tampering with
evidence. Bail was set at over half a million dollars. The rest of
the group faced charges of gross abuse of a corpse, abuse of a corpse,
tampering with evidence, obstructing justice, and failure to report a crime that
bails ranged from thirty thousand dollars to forty two five hundred dollars. Everyone but
Matthew Puccio agreed to take a plea deal, stipulating that they'd share the whole
truth with investigators. Matthew originally tried to plead not guilty by reason of insanity,
but eventually changed his plea to guilty. Good evening, I'm Eryl mcchanray,
I'm John Paul James Brown is off and Urbana woman suffered for hours before
she was killed. That's according to the man who told us he's the one
who killed her, he said of seventh. Jessica Heffner talked to the now
confessed killer in the Tri County jail and has this exclusive interview Jessica. Well,
there are five people in jail for the murder of Jessica Ray Sacho.
I asked all five to talk to me about what happened, but only the
main suspect, Matthew Puccio, agreed, and he says about that day is
disturbing and police are still evaluating how much of it they actually believe. Why
did you kill her? Honestly don't know. He was brought in from the
jail in handcuffs. He told me he only agreed to this interview to tell
his side of the story of what his relationship with Jessica Ray Sacho was really
like. He says her personality drew them together a year and a half ago,
being there for me when I was going through psychotic breaks. She held
me in, told me it'll be all right. But the night of March
twenty first they got into an argument, one, he said, started because
he'd received text messages Sacho wanted him dead. I said, if you help
me out of your life, I can just do it myself. Once she
I can't be so for sec that you have four kiss to think about.
That's when he claimed Sacho started begging him to kill her. A corner ruled
she died of suffocation. Please say he used a bag, but Puccio admitted
that's not what happened. First, she was pleading with me to slash her
throat, sasha wrist, do something, and I told her, no,
I can't do that to you, and she told me to stab her then,
so I just held my hand above her stomach. She grabbed my wrist
and pulled it into her stomach. So how did the bag get into the
situation? The bag that please say you put over her head to suffocate her,
that didn't come into the situation until about six and a half seven hours
later, after I stabbed her. Puccio claims he held a knife in front
of her torso, but she reached for it, and he claims she made
him stab her. He also said he wrapped the wound, held her,
and, in his words, gave her a final kiss. She asked me
if I could just let her diarrating. I thought, there's only one way
I can do that. There's not going to be pleasant, he cried as
he described grabbing a plastic bag and putting it over her head. Weak from
the knife wound, he said it only took seconds. I just liked next
her and cried, kept telling her I'm sorry for hours. He debated his
next move. He then says he called four friends also in jail now for
help. Why whine hit up her body? Scared, he said, they
jumped the body parts in some woods in Kentucky. He then went to Hamilton
to wait. It would be eight days before police would find her body.
During that time, Puccio said he tried to come to terms with what he
did. When police came for him, he says, he confessed, we
have no right to take someone else's life. I dont matter what the scenario
is that he did know, and I have to live at death. Our
friend of Sachos told me she'd been urging her to kick Putio out of her
apartment not long before she was killed. Pouccio told me he plans to plead
guilty and deserves the death penalty. Well, Matthew, Puccio was telling one
hundred and one different versions of what happened and why the others began spilling the
beans in order to keep their plea deals alive. Unlike Jessica. Of course,
that night we ended up having to stay there me and my girl and
little the other two were staying a little Me and my girl ended up staying
there because he told us to stay there. He's slept next to the boty
indivdure. Wow, that's yeah. And that right there got me even worse
because if he says he said Columbine and all the mother had nothing on him
me. So I don't know. I'm still I'm afraid to watch this movie
The Collector. He gave me a movie, or watch The Collector. And
then he says that's nothing to God of what he could do. And the
description of the collector he keeps body parts his trophies. It's just disgusting.
I don't want somebody body part is a trophy to bring in the next No,
I don't know the movie. I'm still refusing to watch it. But
oh it's just And then the next day by tell me tell me about that
is what was his reason for cutting it out? To get rid of it.
Okay, so he was collecting parts from no, but no, but
that's what that's what when he told me about the movie first, I was
like, oh, don't tell me this. No, he wanted to get
rid of the parts. The parts are not sure where they're at. Okay,
so how did you guys get rid of the top. It took four
of us. It was only him and Andrew in the beginning trying. Then
he asked me, I grabbed I think it one of her legs to try.
I don't know why I did it. I was scared of him.
I didn't you know what I mean. It's it's just a body who's before
and then three of us. Andrew's a big boy, and I don't know
if you met Andrew. Andrew's a big boy with me and I'm one hundred
and ninety thousand strong. With three of us trying to lift her, it
was dead weight, not no pun intended, but it was, you know,
it was happy we could get the thing in the tumble. So Sharon
help him. So we each grabbed the leg and an arm got her,
got her and then to him. Finally we had to drag her. He
wanted it off in bed for some reason, and I was afraid. So
understand she didn't want to deal with. Trust me right, tell you go
off the cutting up? Who else cutting it off? He had? He
had Andrews start, told him to do it. And what did Andrew do?
Started with what's he using to cut her up? Diving knife? I
think it was. I think it was a diving n he had. He
had about three. There was two swords. He tried with the sword first,
and then who tried the store first and try with one of them kata
swords. Right, let's go back to a very first show visual statement.
Yeah, I believe the first one was when Matt came out and told you
she was dead. That you guys went then and picked her up and took
her into the bathroom and put her in the tub. I was and then
started cutting her left arm off. I was mistaken with that. I was
mistaken. I was a shock. That is part of the ironia statement.
Okay, so you're saying now that he comes out and says she's dead or
whatever, I mean, how is that how he put it or what did
what did he say? Yeah, he said she's dead. I showed her.
Okay, So then you guys decided to go to sleep, and then
that's about what time in mor Indie you know it was. It was between
seven and nine in the morning when we went to sleep. Woke up somewhere
between eleven and one. Okay, so you wake up between eleven and one,
and the decision at that point is what that Matt said, Hey,
look, I've been thinking about it. We should move her into the bathroom
and cut up the body to be able to hide it. Okay, now,
when we first thought you said that was your idea. Whether it was
my idea or is it was brought up at that point. Who knew how
to cut her up? It's not something that you just do on a whim,
right. I made incision marks superficial at the different joints in whatever to
show where Matt should cut. Matt did the majority of the cutting, and
then I removed the fingers too, because Matt said, well, if we
leave the fingers on there, then the body will be easier to identify if
the parts are ever found. Okay, why did you leave the head?
Then we got to a point where we felt we just couldn't continue because of
what reasons, one time constraints to smell. It would have been to a
finished cutting up the body in the way that Matt decided he wanted to do
it after the idea was brought forth. It would have involved cutting open the
abdomen and removing you know, the organs and so forth, which is going
to create a unbelievable smell, and that would have alerted the name to something
going on. And so when it got two late enough in the day of
cutting, Chris and I just looked at each other and said, no,
we this needs to stop now because it's you know, this is just as
far as it should go. Period. This this situation where you've murdered and
partially dismembered an innocent young woman in her own house, that's as far as
it should go, according to Andrew and Chris. Dismember her body. You
don't take the head off, you can't get the arm off. You're undertime
and strange smell, all that stuff. What do you guys do with the
body parts? The body parts were placed into those trash bags with the intention
of removing them and ditching them at another location where the original intention was to
leave. Basically, put one limb in each trash bag and leave them at
different dumpsters throughout town here in Urbana, and they would have been in public
trash cans and so forth, and most likely not searched. Was the thought
process there. We couldn't find locations that suited our purposes, so they ended
up being transported down with us to Hamilton, at which point the people that
we were staying with, that's Susan Hunt, which is Linda and Epstein's mother,
said that she would take him to ditch the body parts on their way
down into Kentucky when she was going to pick up her youngest children. I'm
really not sure why this Linda lady was not arrested. Maybe somebody in the
audience could clue me in. That's a question we just weren't able to answer.
How on earth did the stars align so perfectly that at minimum six people
were involved in the cover up. Everyone Jessica surrounded herself with in her final
six months of life was against her. Literally everyone did you call ems?
Or nine on one? I didn't went on Honestly, I've been told that
I'm loyal to a fault, and I would say that was definitely a fault
in not calling. I don't think that he was completely in control of himself
when that happened, but and as such, I became protective of him and
didn't want him to suffer for something he did in a crazy moment. But
you when jess took thirty some aspirin and eight tremadil over trimmadol or whatever it
was. You call EMS nine on one and have him come pick her up,
because she didn't want her to die. But Matt stabs her. You
got a little bit of a cut on her shirt, a little bit of
a blood. This isn't a womb to her neck, This isn't a womb
to her wrists, This isn't you know, there's not blood all over the
place. You don't think to call nine on one or EMS at that point
to try to save her life. At that point, even though you tried
to save her life when she took a bunch of pills with no blood involved,
and she try to take her own life. I'm sure this is about
to sound screwed up, but I don't ever believe that suicide is the answer
to anything. I feel extremely strong about that as such, whether I liked
her at that time or not, I called EMS and made sure she was
taking care off. I had actually wanted her and was trying to convince her
to stay checked in at that mental hospital for longer, because honestly she needed
that. She was extremely depressed on a long term basis. What we got
to Facebook messages, You guys back and forth that were closer to her death,
that where you guys don't like her at all, you're basically just staying
there because you needed a roof over your head and you didn't want to sleep
in the van. Yeah, okay, so let's not go into a whole.
And they had a representation that's not I mean, the guys didn't light
as the time. The reason why I didn't call her right then is because,
honestly, since I knew he wasn't thinking straight or thinking at all,
I didn't want him to get but for a small little, for a small
little is the longest the soul. F two carries the penalty today as opposed
to murder that carries potential death paloty. Again, I was not thinking clearly,
and I'm freely admitting that. So would it be safe to say that
you guys expressed your displeasure with Jess and how you guys didn't like her care
for you guys talked about wishing her gone with Christ and then never got mad.
Yeah, you guys talk about killing her with Christ and chair I didn't.
I mean, I got mad and I said, stupid shiit, what's
the stupid ship? He said like, I did wish her gone. I
got so mad, but after the fact I didn't really don't know. I
guess I wish she would have just better mean way or I didn't want just
Yes, they did want it to happen, and then it happened. Cause
and effect consequences to actions. How many times have we told this story.
This group of quote unquote loyal people would have been thrilled if Jessica had stayed
institutionalized after a suicide attempt so they could just live freely in her house without
her around. That didn't happen, though, so they took it upon themselves
to allow the craziest among them to carry out this horrible act while they stood
by and watched, waiting to help clean it all up when it was all
said and done. Now, listen, you're going to be very disappointed when
you hear the prison sentences for these degenerate morons. Matthew Puccio received a sentence
of life in prison with the possibility of parole after thirty years for the aggravated
murder charge and an additional twelve years for the other charges. Oh yeah,
and one of the people matt was cheating on Jessica with was a fourteen year
old girl, so he copped an additional three years for that. His co
defendants received varied sentences. Andrew Forny got just ten years in prison. Wow,
Candice Forni got six years because you know she's female. She did have
to forfeit her van though the vehicle used to transport Jessica's body parts. Christopher
Wright got just four years, and his girlfriend Sharon Cook got three With good
behavior, that's like a cake walk. The Ohio Department of Rehabilitation and Correction
states that Christopher Wright is currently a fugitive and is at large, most likely
for violation of the terms of his parole. Hearing these sentences, you're probably
realizing that everyone except for Matthew is out of prison. Andrew even has his
own brand new Facebook account. Believe it or not, go say hi,
Actually, don't just stay the fuck away. Stay the fuck away from these
people, all of them. Nothing good can come from surrounding yourself with people
like this, a lesson Jessica should have learned, but didn't. Unfortunately.
Isn't it just crazy how some people can make egregious mistakes in their life and
then walk away a few years later, like nothing ever happened. All of
the perpetrators in this case have family members who now have to live with this
horrible stain on their family name. Most importantly, this crime took Jessica Saco
away from her loving parents and siblings. She may not have been perfect,
she may have had demons and issues. Hell, she may have even been
annoying. Who knows, but who cares. She was innocent. She deserved
a chance to live, to learn, to grow as a person, to
realize that insane clown posse is not good music period. And I don't mean
to make light of the situation. It's a really horrible, horrible thing happened
here, but I can't help but feel for Jessica's poor mom, who tried
to give her a chance, who tried to steer her in the right direction.
But at some point you got to let the little baby bird out of
the nest and hope for the best. And life doesn't always turn out the
way you hope it will. All right, that's going to do it for
another one. Thank you so much for joining us. And again, if
this is the last thing on your feed, and this is the last time
you've heard me, and it's been weeks and weeks. Maybe you want to
head on over to Swordinscale dot com download our new app and go check that
out, which is, by the way, launching it just a little over
a week now, So go tell your friends. It's got a little buzz
going like it's twenty seventeen. Well let's go. No, we want the
calls all the more reasons I have the calls. If they don't like the
calls, keep the calls. I love the call. So that's my opinion.
By a Mike is Jack's don't get rid of the comments. At at
the end, you know people are paying the app. If I like the
comments, there are some people who really could use the course of paraphrasing,
so they can just you know, get the point across and then take up.
But that's not your problem. Keep the comments. I think you need
to hear the love all right, keep doing a good jobs. So by
Mike is Nicole Coomplin. I've been listening to you for ten years and the
best part of your well the best version show is you, of course,
but I really do look forward to those called Debbie end. Don't ever stop
that you please me. Once it was the most amazing moment of my life
and please don't stop doing it. It's part of your your signature. Okay.
Anyway, looking forward to the TV show You Say Say Blood not by Dido did