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Hello, and welcome back to Chittheads. My name is Khalid and I am

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one of the learning navigators that embodied
philosophy. We have a subversive episode today

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with Bahani Sakhar, who is a
Calcutta born Oxford educated scholar of classical Sanskrit

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literature and pre modern Indian history and
religious traditions. Bahani is a historian of

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early Indian politics, religions, and
literature between the second and fifteenth century CE.

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She is a lecturer and comparative non
Western Thought at Lancaster University and formerly

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a departmental lecturer in Sanskrit at Oriental
Institute, University of Oxford. Bahani has

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researched and taught in universities in the
UK and in Europe. Her teaching goal

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is to enable everyone access to early
Indian Sanskrit texts and traditions in the original

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language, regardless of ability or prior
knowledge, and to think about them in

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critical, modern, and exciting ways. She has authored the book Classical Sanskrit

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Tragedy, The Concept of Suffering and
Pathos in Medieval India. In this episode,

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Mahani and Jacob discussed the study of
Sanskrit unmotivated by any kind of political

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ideology, marginalized voices in the study
of Sanskrit and Shakhta as a homegrown feminist

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tradition, inspiring and emancipating Indian woman. We hope you enjoy. Tell me

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about Lancaster. How has it been, How has it been different from your

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experience at Oxford. I'm sure it's
a different vibe. Tell me a little

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bit about how things are going.
Yeah, so well, thank you Jacob

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for kind of asking me to the
podcast, and it's so nice to see

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you again after gosh, it's been
more than a year now, it's been

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a year. Yeah. For those
that are listening, this is a special

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interview because it's with Bahani Sarker,
who was actually my teacher at Oxford,

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one of the lecturers there while I
was studying to do my infil on the

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first year in Classical Indian Religion,
which was also a program you did many

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years ago. Indeed I did,
yet not really so many in the grand

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scheme of things, because we're actually
the same age I discovered when we were

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in When you're studying, which is
always an interesting experience when you go to

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university again and then suddenly your teachers
or your age through your peers in some

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sense, maybe not academically, but
certainly in sort of stage of life.

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So yeah, So I was mentioning
to Bahani before we started that this is

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the first personal, you know,
academic teacher I've had who I've interviewed on

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chitheads. So it's a special experience
for me. And Behani was an amazing

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kind of shepherdess of the program.
You really were the heart of the NFL

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program that year, and many of
us talked about how how how necessary you

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were to really give us some direction
and make us feel supported and otherwise in

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a program that can feel a little
bit cold perhaps and not super warm and

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nurturing, and you really brought a
nurturing quality to it. So I'm i

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still have very fond memories of you, and I'm really excited to chat.

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Thank you so much, Jacob.
That's so nice. Thanks. I mean,

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you know, Jacob, you was
certainly I'm not exaggerating here, you

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were certainly one of the nicest,
that the nicest students that I was teaching,

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and it was just so nice to
have you come round to the readings

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and the tutorials because I think those
sessions landed up being a bit like what

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I think, I think this podcast
would become like just a rich conversation,

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a rich and deep conversation. Yeah, but it wasn't always like that,

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was it. What do you think
were the limits to get into that place?

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Yeah? I mean, of course, there were different types of classes

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that we had. There. There
were classes that were focused specifically on reading

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texts, in which there was very
much this is an incorrect sentence you've interpreted

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or you've translated this sentence incorrectly.
In this is the right sentence, there's

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very much something that's a bit strict
and yes and no kind of a class

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like that. And then there were
other types of classes where we would just

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sit and talk and you'd bring over
your essays and we talk through the essays,

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and I remember even during the readings
you bringing up some really pertinent questions,

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which I think took the readings to
a totally different level. And I

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also remember very very fondly the practice
sessions that we had before the exams,

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and I think those were special because
we really bonded over vulnerabilities, because you

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were coming to me from a position
of needing help with something, and that

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reminded me of how I was for
much of my time as a student needing

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help with my Sanskrit. And when
you come with that openness and vulnerability,

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you bond in a different way because
that just I think, my little mommy

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vibe just goes off. I can't
resist that you need my help. I

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will help you. Well, I
think that stands out for everybody as a

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unique quality that you have, and
I'm sure you're continuing to bring that to

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Lancaster as well. So how has
Lancaster been How has it been different from

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what you've been experiencing as a teacher
so far? I mean, I don't

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even know where to start. I
joined Lancaster last year, but it feels

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like, gosh, I've lived a
lifetime in this one year. In terms

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of teaching, it's very different.
It's not Sanskrit text anymore. It's more

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religious and philosophical and historical modules.
The course is designed around religious and historical

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topics. I'm teaching two modules currently
that I designed, one which is called

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the Religion and Politics of South Asia
the Power of the Past, and the

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other which is called Wild Asian Goddesses, Transgression and Transgression and Power in South

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and Southeast Asia. The first one, which is what I'm teaching right now,

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which is religion and politics the power
of the past. We look at

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how religion and politics overlaps in South
Asia. How it's kind of not very

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helpful to think of religion and politics
sometimes as two differentiated domains. So topics

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like sacred kingship both in Islam and
in Hinduism, topics like ritual and power.

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I think maybe we did that topic. I'm not quite sure if we

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did that topic, but ritual and
power is something which looks at how ritual

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is the domain in which sovereign power
is created and the power of the rulers

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performed. So those kinds of topics, and we also going to look at

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post colonial identity and how heritage and
what role heritage can play in defining post

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colonial identity. So that's very different
from what I taught in Sanskrit and the

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Wild Asian Goddesses really looks at goddess
is from South and Southeast Asia and studies

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them in relation to a feminist theory, particularly feminist theory from black and Islamic

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feminisms. In fact, there's a
whole separate teaching element which will focus on

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comparative feminisms. And I'm really excited
about that, because I'm thinking about feminism

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and heroines and Sanskrit literature a lot
these days. I'm going to be writing

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about it as well. So that's
where I am at. Now you've quote

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me at an exciting place. Yeah, much much more exciting, I would

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say than sometimes what's happening in Oxford, which I feel like is a more

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limited theoretical framework. It sounds like
you're really kind of expanding a bit more

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into you know, drawing on greater
other theoretical frameworks like feminism in order to

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situate your work in Sanskrit. So
it's sort of less this, less this

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kind of classical philological approach, you
know, you know, whatever that is,

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with all of its more or less
limitations, and broadening it to sort

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of a more multidisciplinary kind of mode. Yes, but certainly the reading the

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primary sources always anchors that for me. Yeah, because I think being able

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to confront the historical sources without without
the filter of translation is something that is

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empowering because I don't have other voices
interpreting those sources. To me, I

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am the first witness in a way
of it, without any intermediary So I

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always bring that forward in my classes
that you know, it's direct access to

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the language. And a lot of
this I'm thinking now in relation to a

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very powerful post colonial thinker called Angoogi
Wa Thiongo, who's black philosopher, and

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he argues in his uh Decolonizing the
Mind, that really reclaiming post colonial identity,

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and this is in relation to African
identity, is to go back to

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African languages which have been systematically expunged
and decimated by the brutality of colonialism.

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So going back to your primary voice, your mother tongue, is actually clawing

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back that identity which you've lost.
So in a way, for me,

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my journey into Sanskrit was coming back
or understanding the source of my language and

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my mother tongue more. And of
course I'm sure there are problems with this

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which you're going to raise as well. But because you know, as you

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said, I think you mentioned in
your email that there is this reactive trend

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in academic amongst academic thinkers that say
that well, you're going native, quote

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unquote, but by going native,
you're also somehow endorsing a very right wing,

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fundamentalist, non liberal idea and ideology. Now I mean again, the

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way I think about it is going
back to heritage. Sorry, I'm kind

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of chattering on without No, it's
very no, it's very interesting. Yeah,

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No, I mean why don't I
I'll situate your question a little bit

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and kind of give some a little
further backdrop, just to add to what

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you're saying. Yeah, the this
the the the point I was sort of

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interested in talking to you about.
And You've said a lot of interesting things

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that I feel like I have some
questions about so well, but one of

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one of the things will just go
straight into it, even though I usually

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save the politics towards the end,
but why not discuss it at the beginning.

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It'll keep people listening. Is that
what you know there is On the

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one hand, what's interesting about what
you're saying is that there is this sense

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in which to study soundscrit and to
go to the source text of soundscret is

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in a way coming home, like
you're saying, for yourself as a as

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a South Asian person, And in
that sense, there's a decolonialist element to

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that right to go to your mother
tongue, as you say. And then

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there is this kind of other argument
which is pointing out that actually the emphasis

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on sanscrit is in a way perpetuating
Braminical orthodoxy and supremacy in the region.

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And what we you know, what
these these more polemical thinkers say we should

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be doing, is we should be
in some sense focusing more on elevator or

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platforming Dravidian languages, other Indian languages
that are not Dravidian or sense critic because

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by focusing on Sanskrit is sort of
the primary original language of India, we

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in a sense marginalize some of these, you know, other cultures, other

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people who lived in the region.
So I guess you know, with that,

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with those two kind of perspectives in
mind, how would you you know,

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situate your own perspective in relation to
that? And also do you think,

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I'm curious, do you think that
that the point about the other languages

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of India is a bit overstated when
we look at because it seems like to

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me, there are tons of there's
so much work to do in Sanskrit alone,

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right, there's so much literature,
And yes, there's literature in these

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other languages. But when we do
proportionally, when we look at the literature

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and the philosophy that has yet to
be translated, it's there is no comparison

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in terms of what is left un
worked on, untranslated, undiscovered, is

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it? Would you would you say
that that's true? Yeah, So I'll

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take the tooth aspects of the questions, oh for it. One was,

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I guess one was about the whether
whether whether learning sends through or whether studying

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sounds with furthers Braminical discourses and Brahminical
Orthodox thinkings. So that was the first

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one, and the second one was
about regional languages and marginalization of regional languages,

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uh in favor of Sanskrit. So
I'll take the first one. So

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yes. So there is a bigger
political context that's very important to draw out,

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which is that in the past few
years and particularly now, India has

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been governed by a right wing Hindu
nationalist party and they endorse a particular kind

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of ideology, a political ideology that
claims to interpret true Hinduism and I and

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I used and I put true within
quotation marks, which is basically their interpretation

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of what Hinduism should be like.
And within this agenda they also appropriate Sanskrit.

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So because Sanskrit is the language of
all the ancient scriptures, they see

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any kind of study of Sansrith,
or they take up the study of Sansrith

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as part of the Hinduta agenda.
So that's what's going on right now.

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And regardless to say, I'm me
like another like a lot of contemporary Indians

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are very frightened by that because the
India that I grew up was diverse.

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There are many, many different voices, there are many different religious traditions.

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India is kaleidoscopic culturally and religiously,
and that's how I've always known India.

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So the perpetuation of a monolithic identity
that claims to be authentic to me is

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full it's patently false. So you
can understand that in the context of Sanscrit

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being appropriated by right wing agendas,
you can understand the reactive trend in academia

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that somehow views study of Sanscrit with
suspicion because they see in any kind of

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study of Sanscrit that fundamentalist Brahminical agenda
at work. Now that's why I found

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it so easy to study. I
mean, I found it easier to study

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Sanscrit far away in rural Lancaster,
where you know, I study sans with

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as a scholar does purely for the
love of the language and actually purely out

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of curiosity. I'm not studying sanscrit
out of any political agenda. The only

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agenda that I think it serves is
a romantic one for myself, which you

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know, which is to to understand
a different world and to inhabit a different

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world. So so that's the context
in which the reactive trend is coming up.

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Now, studying Sanskrit or studying some
Sanskrit literature maybe a furthering of Brahminical

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discourse, because say you're studying things
like or reading or elaborating on things like

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the Harma Shastra, which, given
that they're Hindu legal works, do further

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a Brahminical agenda. So say,
if you study really hardline things like that,

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maybe maybe you are furthering an Orthodox
agenda. But say, like me,

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you study literature from marginal tradition,
like goddess traditions, traditions which incorporate

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a lot of subversive acts that defy
Brahminical orthodox thinking concerning purity, then how

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can you say I'm furthering Brahminical Brahminical
orthodoxy. Goddess traditions actually defy Brahminical orthodoxy.

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So that's my answer to to your
The first part of the question is

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that Sansrith can Sanskrit texts and sanscrit
can cover a whole lot of things,

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not just brahmanical discourse. And also
if you love poetry and literature, which

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is really my first love, the
study of literature, I mean, are

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you furthering elitist discourse by studying poetry? Is you know, then then you'd

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say that, you know, studying
Latin poet with further some kind of Latin

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discourse. I mean I study poetry
because I love poetry, I love literature.

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So Sansrith is a broad umbrella.
Lots of things can be covered in

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it. Yea with the second part, which is regional languages. So my

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first love is really not Sansrith.
It's Bengali, which is my mother tongue.

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And in a way, my whole
journey into Sansyrit was through Bengali.

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It was by reading a very important
Bengali writer called bonquin Chandro, who writes

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a very rich Sanskritic Bengali prose.
It was that that was my first window

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into the richness of the Sanscrit language. It was Bonkim's use of these beautiful

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long compounds which are padded with description
that was so Sanskritic. That excited my

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interest in Sanskrit prose, which was
where Bonkin was drawing his his style from.

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So my journey into Sanskrit was through
Bengali, and in I hope that

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in doing Sanskrit, at some point
in my life, I will come back

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to my mother tongue, Bengali,
because one day, I hope I'm able

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to write beautiful pieces of Bengali literature. Hm hmm, that's beautiful. I

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see that happening for you, definitely. So so I guess my my next

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question with regards to this, and
I hear what you're saying in terms of

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what the and maybe maybe I'm just
ignorant of the real of the kind of

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libraries specific to you know, the
possible libraries, possible texts that are within

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these different regional languages. But is
it also the case that we have a

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proportionally larger library of literature or possibilities, you know, to be translated in

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the textual tradition of Sanskrit then in
these other other regional languages, such that

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there is an argument that we you
know, that that that that the that

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the emphasis on Sanskrit over these regional
languages makes some sort of proportional sense.

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Does that make sense as a question. Yeah, I think it does make

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sense as a question. But you're
not sure that's true. Well, I

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I mean, I don't think that
one should study a language because or one

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should study expressions in a language,
or the literature or the the the religious

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texts of a particular language because over
and above another uh language, because there

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is more unstudied texts in this and
less less in that. I don't think

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that's that's a very utilitarian argument.
Who are studying a subject. I think

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you should study a language and a
literature and a culture because it fires your

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imagination, because you're curious. It
should be pure love and it should be

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pure interest, not anything else.
There is a vast amount of literature in

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the regional languages in Tamil, in
Bengali, and there will always be writing

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in that. But that doesn't mean
that we should not study Sanskrit and just

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study those languages, those vernaculars.
I'm interested in Bengali and Sanskrit is my

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mother tongue, and I approach Sanskrit
through the mother tongue. I think it's

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okay if I want to read in
both, and if I want to study

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in both, if the passion is
there, if the passion is there,

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if the passion is there, Yes, what do you going back to the

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question about you know, being able
to go to the source text, why

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do you think that that's so particularly
important because it seems like there is less

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and less of that, right,
I mean, that's one of the things

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you notice when you get to the
program that that I studied with you in

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and also just seeing the amount of
students. There are very few students studying

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sonscrit There are very few people,
you know, like proportionally to the rest

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of the academic community, really trying
to get to a place where they actually

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can interact with these texts. So
I guess the question is sort of one

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of how we even cultivate that passion
to begin with, right, Because the

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passion for languages you could say,
socially had a height right there, because

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it was emphasized, it was it
was prioritized in sort of the academic culture

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to learn other languages. And yeah, you could make an argument that that

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was for some sort of imperialist agenda, colonialist agenda, But there was also

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just, you know, in the
background of that, a serious curiosity,

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a passion like the one you're describing
that you have for Bengali and for Sanskrit.

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But in a state of our culture
where we actually don't, you know,

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less and less people have any passion
whatsoever because they've never been introduced to

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something that would actually ignite that passion. How do you, pedagogically, as

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a teacher, inspire that in your
students. Yeah, so, I think

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one of the ways I do it, and I'm trying to do it now

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is use the political argument in that
Right now, Sanskri is being seen as

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an rs A right wing Hindu fundamentalist
thing. You know, this is the

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right time, actually, this is
the time when someone who's not right wing,

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someone who's not well, who doesn't
have that kind of political agenda,

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should be studying Sanskrit to show that
you can study Sanskrit unmotivated by any kind

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of political ideology. This is the
time to do it and ask difficult questions

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that comes from reading, from studying
the language that should be asked. I

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mean, so, yes, So
there is that argument that this is the

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time really to study Sanskrit in the
context of this rising intolerant attitude in in

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India. This is the time to
be studying Sanskrit in a way that isn't

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constrained by that intolerant attitude, in
a way that's free. So it's important

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to be able to do let's say, subversive Sanskrit studies, Sanskrit studies that

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does not toll a right wing politically
politically a politically right wing constrained mode.

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It should be a kind of study
now that is well, that is courageous

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to ask questions that come up in
a free mind. And that's what I

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tell students, and this is what
gets them excited. So yeah, I

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don't know if I answered that.
No, you did. And I think

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I just found the title of this
podcast, Subversive Sanskrit Studies with Behani.

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I love that and I'm gonna it
brings up a question for me that's going

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to go to another one of our
kind of political slightly political or social.

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Me should create this thing here,
actually, Jacob, we should create subversive

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Let's do it, a workshop for
subversive Sanskrit studies. Yes, if you're

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interested, listeners, email Jacob and
Body philosophy dot com. Tell them you

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want to be a part of this
Subversive sanscrit studies workshop. We'll see if

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there's some interest in that. So, okay, one of the other criticisms

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sounds great, and I love talking
about this with those with with people who

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study soundscrit and obviously I do.
But there's a there is a sense in

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which the field is dominated by white
men, straight white men. So I

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mean, I have one, i
have one marginalized ticking box, but I'm

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still a white man in this field. So whether or not that makes me

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a part of the problem or not, who knows. But how does it?

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So? I have two questions regarding
this, Like, first of all,

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how has it been for you,
as a South Asian woman to be

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in an in you know, in
a field dominated by white men. Has

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it been something that you've actively reflected
upon that you felt alienated by or affected

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by in some way? And and
in the and then in the name of

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this sort of subversive Sanskrit cities,
does a part of that also involve bringing

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other marginalized voices into this field?
Yeah, thank you. That is a

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brilliant question. And I think I
have been thinking about this for consciously and

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unconsciously for the entirety of my Sanskrit
journey. The first thing to say about

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this field is that it's very male
dominated. Yeah. First, there are

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few way men in the field,
and it's not just in Western academia.

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Traditionally, Sanskrit is a subject I
mean, the study of sanscrit has been

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the privilege of men, although of
course there are there are some women who

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studied studied sanscrit and who wrote Sanskrit
texts, and you have examples of women

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philosophers in Upanishavik writings. You have
citations of women poets in compendia of Sanskrit

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poetry, but these are few.
On the whole, the study of sansrith

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has historically been the privilege of men. So going into sansric, that was

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very conscious of the fact that I'm
a woman stepping into a field of men,

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white men, and brown men men
in general. And I was very

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conscious that the reason I was doing
so was because throughout my life the arbiters

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of authority, uh the arbiters of
cultural authority while I was growing up were

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all men. I didn't have the
freedom to interpret tradition without it being interpreted

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to me and for me by a
man, or by a woman who echoed

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a man's a man's viewpoint. So
when I was going into study Sands with

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I was very conscious of the fact
that I was interpreting this literature and thought

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world that was largely produced by men
as a woman, and I'm taking I'm

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making this radical choice. It was
a choice of that empowered me because I

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didn't want to be dependent on those
male voices of authority. So that was

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one aspect. As I went further
in the field, I began to notice

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that yes, it was not just
male dominated, but it was also dominated

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white by white men, and I
think there is a particular way that white

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men view non white women, especially
non white women from the East. There

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is a general stereotype, and it's
not just in Sanskrit studies. I think

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it might be in academia, might
be more widely outside academia as well.

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There's a general stereotype that women from
the East are docile, a polite,

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are quiet, are submissive, and
because of those characteristics they are overlooked.

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I felt overlooked and marginalized as a
South Asian woman in a field dominated by

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white male academics for a very long
time, and so that forms a kind

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of I guess an anger that I'm
gradually coming to terms with, and I'm

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fighting back against against that viewpoint intellectually
these days as well, because I'm working

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on a book on women in sensor
of poetry and largely conceptions of wild women

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and female transgression in this body of
traditional literature that actually that actually argues that

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instead of seeing a lot of these
women in the way that they have and

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they are by the white male Sanskritist, which is that they are passive,

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unimportant, pretty nique uh non entities, that they're actually powerful, passionate,

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active, defiant women. And it
is possible to read these women against that

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particular hegemonic, white male academic view. And an example I used to fight

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back against that view is the example
of poverty in the Kumara stuff that I

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love that I can't wait to read
that book. Well, I mean,

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I'm curious, then, does because
when you're talking about images of powerful women,

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of course, the first thing that
sort of emerges for me is our

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images that one finds, iconographic images
one finds in the Shakta tradition. And

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you know, I feel like a
lot of what we're talking about sort of

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comes back, at least in terms
of the religious study to shockedism, which

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has been a big formative field of
study for you and seems to motivate a

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lot of what you do, because
not only was your heroic Shockedism your first

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book on obviously that very topic,
but also interestingly for me, because I

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took it up as well as you
started the shockdism track at at Oxford in

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the in the classic the m filin
Classical Indian Religion, which was the program

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that I that I did, that
that I studied with you in. And

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although it's sort of after you left
because for those that are listening, so

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the story went, she got a
job at Lancaster and then left us after

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the first year. We didn't we
didn't judge you for it. It was

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a totally valid decision, but we
missed you back to me, come to

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me in lancas to come back to
become join me. I would love to.

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I'm a subversive, yes exactly.
So yeah, I'm just I'm just

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curious how I I suppose I want. I'm trying to segue us into a

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little bit of of that that passion
and that pursuit of of the study of

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shackedism, and and and I'm curious
why because with with what is what is

355
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important about studying Shackedism independently of Shivism? Right? Because a lot of times

356
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I think Shockedism gets sort of absorbed
into a study of Shaivism because it's considered

357
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this sort of esoteric evolution or escalation
of Shiva, of Shiva philosophy or soteriology.

358
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But you really have, you know, are among you know, many

359
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obviously academics and practitioners who really highlight
and allowed to stand as independent from that

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the shakta tradition. So can you
talk a little bit about that. It's

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sort of a broad ranging question,
but it seems like a perfect time to

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talk about it since we're sort of
discussing marginalized voices and Shacdhism seems like it's

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been a marginalized tradition until relatively recently. Yes, so within the subcontinent there

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has always been independent veneration of a
goddess or many goddesses identified as a single

365
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supreme goddess. Areas of the subcontinents, such as Bengal, Nepal, South

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India, Rajasthan are home to vibrant
traditions of sharkta or goddess worship, in

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which it's the goddess in her singularity
who is worshiped. So the entire idea

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that shark the traditions are somehow only
adjuncts to Shaivism or Veraishnavism does not tally

369
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with the lived reality of worship in
the subcontinent presently as well as historically.

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As well as historically, if you
look at Sharkta inscriptions, they're more than

371
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two hundred and forty inscriptions evincing devotion
to a goddess and a goddess who is

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exalted as a supreme, all powerful
deity, going back to the second century

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a d. So I think that
we although it has although Indians have known

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it for a very long time,
it seems somehow within academia and within the

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Western Western acaddemic discourse, it seems
that it's important to show that Sharkhism was

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a stand alone tradition because so much
of the study of philosophical and conceptual sources

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has been from the Shiva and the
Vershnava areas. So that's my answer that

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I think Sharkhism as an independent tradition
has always been recognized by South Asians within

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South Asia, and also inscriptions can
can show it. I mean, one

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of the reasons that Shakhism became ever
more popular was that goddess worship was incorporated

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into these other patriarchal traditions within Shaivism, within Vashnavism, even within China traditions,

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and of course the Buddhistthantric traditions,
there are strong shark that is to

383
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say, goddess worshiping traditions that were
incorporated. So Shakhism is not alone,

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not only a stand alone tradition,
but it also permeates and pervades other,

385
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uh other classical traditions as well.
So what was the second question, Jacob,

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00:40:53.639 --> 00:41:00.079
I don't even remember, but that's
okay, I have more that's something,

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but Shaktism and feminism was it?
Or yeah, I mean, I

388
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think, I guess, I guess
the the yeah, the the question was

389
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related to this idea of how the
I don't know, not even resuscitation,

390
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because right, like you're saying,
it's always already been a part of the

391
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lived experiences of people, you know, worshiping within these traditions in both both

392
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contemporarily and and and anciently over centuries, and it's only within the academic study

393
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that it's been sort of subsumed within
these other within these other agendas, research

394
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agendas. So it seems that there
is a kind of feminist argument to be

395
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made over focusing obviously on the elevation
of the Shakta traditions. And there's a

396
00:41:50.239 --> 00:41:58.559
feminist reasoning behind why the Shocta Shakta
traditions may have been not highlighted as the

397
00:41:58.599 --> 00:42:02.320
important traditions or as central to you
know, the religious life of India.

398
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Absolutely, I do think there's a
feminist argument to be made in studying these

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traditions in their own right rather than
being as you know, quote unquote the

400
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sexier versions of Shaivism and Vashonavism.
And there is a further point about feminism

401
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that I actually wanted to make,
and this is, uh, this is

402
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from my perspective as an Indian woman
that for Salvasian women, shock the traditions,

403
00:42:42.039 --> 00:42:46.599
the concepts, and the tales about
the goddess and practices about the goddess

404
00:42:46.679 --> 00:42:58.199
have been our homegrown native feminist traditions
for centuries. Within these shark the tales,

405
00:42:58.360 --> 00:43:07.000
we have models of female autonomy that
Indian girls have found inspiring for centuries.

406
00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:22.760
So it's a kind of homegrown feminist
tradition which kind of which in you

407
00:43:22.800 --> 00:43:32.239
know, which which formed templates of
inspiring, uh emancipating Indian women. So

408
00:43:32.400 --> 00:43:37.360
that's something that I've been kind of
thinking about Lakey as well, that Shaktism

409
00:43:38.239 --> 00:43:45.119
could even be thought of for the
way I experienced it really is that it

410
00:43:45.239 --> 00:43:52.320
was the local feminist tradition. Mm
hmm. That's a really unique way to

411
00:43:52.320 --> 00:43:55.599
think about it. I really love
that. Actually, like the idea of

412
00:43:55.719 --> 00:44:00.679
the Shakta traditions as a homegrown feminist
today, I feel like that's a rich

413
00:44:01.400 --> 00:44:07.719
area of research that hasn't really been
explored so much. It seems that I

414
00:44:07.800 --> 00:44:15.079
think it's important to think about it
this way because lately, of course,

415
00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:22.639
global feminisms are, you know,
becoming very very important within feminist scholarship.

416
00:44:23.880 --> 00:44:32.519
Writers from Islamic feminism, from Black
feminism are really contributing with perspectives that challenge

417
00:44:34.119 --> 00:44:42.440
assumptions within Western white feminism. And
I think, I mean, I certainly

418
00:44:42.480 --> 00:44:50.199
find the writings of Islamic feminists very
very inspiring, writings of say Saba Mehmood

419
00:44:50.440 --> 00:44:58.559
and Lailah Abulagoth, who argue that
actually forms of piety, forms of women

420
00:44:58.880 --> 00:45:12.079
expressing and relishing their religious life were
in fact forms of self expression and empowerment

421
00:45:13.519 --> 00:45:24.719
in many contexts. And I think
that these kinds of alternative perspectives in feminism

422
00:45:24.840 --> 00:45:36.280
that bring in the viewpoint of non
Western cultures is really helpful now in for

423
00:45:36.480 --> 00:45:44.159
us to consider Sharkhism has as a
kind of feminist, as a kind of

424
00:45:44.239 --> 00:45:52.719
kind of kind of feminist in its
ideology that here you have here you have

425
00:45:53.679 --> 00:46:06.519
as central a notion of autonomous female
and an image of autonomous female, of

426
00:46:06.559 --> 00:46:15.840
an autonomous female ness that is both
maternal and at the same time that is

427
00:46:15.679 --> 00:46:28.679
violent. So it's a really rich
conception of female subjectivity that we find articulated

428
00:46:28.760 --> 00:46:34.960
here. And when I have that
in mind and I read tales and legends

429
00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:43.960
of the Goddess, I actually see
narratives about women's experiences lurking in the background.

430
00:46:44.760 --> 00:46:58.000
For example, in legends about the
goddess Kali leaping out from Parvati's rejected

431
00:46:58.159 --> 00:47:02.280
black skin, the skin that she
sloughed off her body because she wanted to

432
00:47:02.320 --> 00:47:13.840
be fair and white, I find
in it a reflection of unwanted basically a

433
00:47:13.920 --> 00:47:22.840
tale about unwanted daughters. That the
unwanted daughter is rejected from the mother's womb

434
00:47:22.519 --> 00:47:30.800
and this unwanted daughter who is Carli
grows up or becomes this ferocious and angry

435
00:47:31.199 --> 00:47:39.159
goddess. So if you look deeply
within Shark the narratives, you will find

436
00:47:39.760 --> 00:47:46.960
feminist tales or tales about women's experiences. Yeah, I'm going to yeah,

437
00:47:46.960 --> 00:47:52.480
almost like they're codified in some in
these in these mythologies and these stories.

438
00:47:53.199 --> 00:48:00.400
And I really like what you're pointing
out about the way in which they chowlenge

439
00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:06.480
the you know, obviously the notion
of the maternal has a particular set of

440
00:48:06.519 --> 00:48:10.360
features and in violence certainly isn't included
within it. So you know, it

441
00:48:12.199 --> 00:48:19.119
challenges these this binary thinking about what
these concepts mean that our part and parcel

442
00:48:19.320 --> 00:48:27.400
of, like you said, kind
of a white Western approach to feminism,

443
00:48:27.559 --> 00:48:32.639
wherein something like the maternal might be
otherwise, you know, characterized differently.

444
00:48:32.719 --> 00:48:37.760
So it offers a different picture of
these things in a way that is really

445
00:48:37.760 --> 00:48:42.360
fruitful. So that's really interesting.
Yeah, I mean this is something this

446
00:48:42.519 --> 00:48:52.320
is actually thinking about tales of women
or tales of goddesses as narratives of women's

447
00:48:52.400 --> 00:49:01.360
experience and narratives of that tell us
about female subjectivity is something that I am

448
00:49:01.960 --> 00:49:07.199
occupied with a lot these days,
and I'm beginning to see that these tales

449
00:49:07.280 --> 00:49:17.519
express so much more sisterhood. For
example, I mean, I was,

450
00:49:17.960 --> 00:49:25.320
you know, looking at the description
of Barvadi's asceticism in chapter five of the

451
00:49:25.360 --> 00:49:34.079
great epic poem the Kumara Sambaba.
And in that description, Barvadi is not

452
00:49:34.239 --> 00:49:40.559
alone. She's with her friends,
and her friends accompany her on this journey

453
00:49:40.760 --> 00:49:53.559
of self transformation. The and in
this this narrative, Barvati's using piety to

454
00:49:53.679 --> 00:49:59.880
express herself and to transform herself,
to to make herself independent of family,

455
00:50:00.159 --> 00:50:09.400
UH, to make herself into a
new UH and strong woman. So and

456
00:50:09.599 --> 00:50:15.679
in that journey, her friends are
an important part, play an important part.

457
00:50:15.880 --> 00:50:21.920
They're not hidden, They're there.
And a lot of people have asked

458
00:50:22.000 --> 00:50:25.920
me when I'm reading this text,
why isn't she alone? And I'm like,

459
00:50:27.039 --> 00:50:30.039
no, I mean, you know, she's she can't be alone.

460
00:50:30.079 --> 00:50:34.920
She's with her sisters, with her
friends. They are multiple voices. All

461
00:50:34.960 --> 00:50:40.440
of these are voices of women,
and poverty somehow stands for women in collectivity.

462
00:50:43.320 --> 00:50:52.639
So this this idea of a collective
female self, a self that is

463
00:50:52.880 --> 00:51:00.239
in numbers, a self that is
formed of different female experience which all echo

464
00:51:01.159 --> 00:51:07.000
I feel that that emerges from a
lot of this literature as well. That's

465
00:51:07.039 --> 00:51:10.840
so interesting. So I'm going to
ask you then, I wanted to ask

466
00:51:10.880 --> 00:51:17.559
you a question about the style of
historic shockedism, or rather the kind of

467
00:51:17.760 --> 00:51:25.800
methodological approach which you know, as
you've already mentioned, you talked at the

468
00:51:25.840 --> 00:51:34.719
beginning about the relationship between religion and
kingship, religion and kind of the state

469
00:51:34.800 --> 00:51:39.840
apparatus for lack of a better term, which is a really important dimension of

470
00:51:39.960 --> 00:51:43.800
understanding. I think that when you
know, a lot of people who listen

471
00:51:43.840 --> 00:51:46.679
to this podcast are practitioners of various
sorts. They're yoga practitioners, they're meditators,

472
00:51:46.679 --> 00:51:52.559
and in so far as they're interested
in Indian philosophy or Indian religions,

473
00:51:52.559 --> 00:51:58.519
they're interested from in some sense a
devotional standpoint. So in that world,

474
00:51:59.280 --> 00:52:04.400
there's a lot of people who have
a lack of historical view, right and

475
00:52:04.400 --> 00:52:12.559
and sometimes and there's a lot of
I think criticism of this dehistoricization that happens,

476
00:52:13.280 --> 00:52:17.840
you know, within certain contemporary spiritual
communities, where whereby if they had

477
00:52:17.880 --> 00:52:22.840
actually engaged at a historical in a
historical way, there would be different insights

478
00:52:22.880 --> 00:52:28.719
and and one could kind of tease
out a little bit of some of historical

479
00:52:28.719 --> 00:52:31.639
reasons for why some of these things
emerged. So that's one dimension of thinking,

480
00:52:31.719 --> 00:52:36.480
right, the historical view. But
there's also this and I think actually

481
00:52:36.519 --> 00:52:40.119
you we discussed this when you were
teaching at Oxford, but because the book

482
00:52:40.280 --> 00:52:46.920
is so historical and in some ways
it feels a little bit like you know,

483
00:52:47.000 --> 00:52:52.480
Sheldon Pollock is also a very historical
thinker, and really, you know,

484
00:52:52.239 --> 00:52:59.440
very much focuses on kind of the
relationship between these these forms of these

485
00:52:59.480 --> 00:53:07.360
different rules, patronages and connections with
different state actors or governmental actors or imperial

486
00:53:07.400 --> 00:53:14.880
actors. But then there is this
competing view that suggests that if we over

487
00:53:15.079 --> 00:53:22.599
historicize, then we actually disempower the
lived, because these religious traditions are always

488
00:53:22.000 --> 00:53:27.719
both contextual and also reaching beyond the
contextual in their own self understanding, right,

489
00:53:28.039 --> 00:53:32.679
They're reaching beyond towards a state of
transcendent fulfillment that you know, takes

490
00:53:32.679 --> 00:53:40.079
on a particular historical tonality in different
context but is sort of reaching towards something

491
00:53:40.079 --> 00:53:45.719
that it believes is perennial, right, that is, reaching towards some kind

492
00:53:45.719 --> 00:53:50.920
of religious experience that then takes on
these different characteristics depending on the different context.

493
00:53:51.280 --> 00:53:58.440
So and so there is I think
a critical response to the historical mode,

494
00:53:58.760 --> 00:54:02.159
which I know you don't share this
view purely and completely, but it's

495
00:54:02.199 --> 00:54:06.280
just something that I think comes up
when you're for somebody that might be reading

496
00:54:06.280 --> 00:54:08.760
this text. It's sort of like, well, how when I'm when I'm

497
00:54:08.840 --> 00:54:14.639
over, when I'm historicizing something in
a particular way, I end I end

498
00:54:14.760 --> 00:54:21.760
up feeling like it's no longer mine
right in a sense, because it becomes

499
00:54:22.000 --> 00:54:30.000
something that has been taken out of
sort of the lived voice of perennial spiritual

500
00:54:30.039 --> 00:54:34.559
experience and sort of almost a sense, I think Nietzsche made this point of

501
00:54:34.599 --> 00:54:39.920
like of the way in which historicization
can actually deaden the life of a of

502
00:54:39.960 --> 00:54:43.800
a kind of spiritual trajectory. Or
I mean, he wouldn't have put it

503
00:54:43.840 --> 00:54:46.920
that way, but that's the way
I'm putting it. So I don't know,

504
00:54:47.000 --> 00:54:50.559
I've just went kind of on a
tangent with all these things, but

505
00:54:50.840 --> 00:55:02.360
I get you. There is this
extreme secularized off aspects of South Asian culture

506
00:55:02.760 --> 00:55:14.199
in which like for example, Karvia
sanscrit poetry is sometimes by some scholars read

507
00:55:14.280 --> 00:55:22.440
as something purely secular, but it's
also the expression of religious piety. They

508
00:55:22.480 --> 00:55:31.000
are passionate, devotional hymns which are
written in ornate sansrit, so called secular

509
00:55:31.039 --> 00:55:40.360
sandscript. So I think this division
into secular and religious is the result of

510
00:55:40.480 --> 00:55:49.000
a rather kind of Western liberal attitude
that sees religion, politics, literature all

511
00:55:49.039 --> 00:55:53.800
as separate little boxes and divided up, whereas in some parts of the world

512
00:55:54.119 --> 00:56:02.280
it wasn't they really bounded together.
For example, political rituals the as the

513
00:56:02.440 --> 00:56:10.559
Rajasuya, the Navaratra, they were
worship acts of worship in which there was

514
00:56:10.599 --> 00:56:20.119
a genuine connection between the self and
the transcendent, but there were also aspects

515
00:56:20.639 --> 00:56:28.760
that empowered the ruler, empowered the
entire state. So these two dimensions,

516
00:56:28.800 --> 00:56:36.159
the political and the sacred, the
mundane and the sacred overlapped, so you

517
00:56:36.239 --> 00:56:45.880
can't divide the two up really in
considering some certain aspects of heritage. So

518
00:56:45.239 --> 00:56:59.199
that's my take on reading traditions historically
is that you've got to be mindful and

519
00:56:59.440 --> 00:57:09.800
conscious of their real genuine importance to
practitioners as practices of faith, while at

520
00:57:09.800 --> 00:57:21.559
the same time being aware of the
various factors over time that have changed the

521
00:57:22.400 --> 00:57:27.880
form of worship. So You've got
to be both. You've got to be

522
00:57:28.000 --> 00:57:31.599
aware of both aspects. You've got
to take into account the fact that these

523
00:57:31.760 --> 00:57:38.000
rituals are deeply important for some even
today. And at the same time you've

524
00:57:38.039 --> 00:57:44.239
got to take into account that these
rituals also, like any other thing,

525
00:57:45.199 --> 00:57:49.880
any other part of culture, has
a history and a background. Yes,

526
00:57:50.480 --> 00:57:58.559
I should also say that I am
someone from South Asia. I am from

527
00:57:58.599 --> 00:58:07.440
a traditional Hindu house. I am
from grown up seeing and witnessing these traditions

528
00:58:07.559 --> 00:58:15.760
firsthand and in a very authentic way. I therefore feel that given that I'm

529
00:58:15.800 --> 00:58:22.559
an insider through and through, I
have the right to study these traditions historically

530
00:58:22.599 --> 00:58:28.719
as well, which have been studied
historically by others who were not part of

531
00:58:28.760 --> 00:58:36.320
the tradition. So for centuries they
have been rituals have been studied as curiosities

532
00:58:37.079 --> 00:58:45.880
historical curiosities by mainly non Western academic
scholars, or they are appropriated as practice

533
00:58:46.079 --> 00:58:55.039
by sorry by Western academic scholars,
or they're appropriated by as practiced by Westerners

534
00:58:55.239 --> 00:59:04.000
who are not part of the tradition. And as someone who comes from a

535
00:59:04.039 --> 00:59:07.880
family that that's a freedom fight,
a family of freedom fighters who fought against

536
00:59:07.920 --> 00:59:15.639
colonial oppression. I see it as
as a way of taking back control of

537
00:59:15.199 --> 00:59:22.800
the narrative of my identity. So
I feel that I do have a right

538
00:59:22.280 --> 00:59:29.639
to be historical about these things,
and I feel that I know about these

539
00:59:29.679 --> 00:59:32.679
things, and I feel that I
can be historical about these things because I

540
00:59:32.760 --> 00:59:37.880
know about these things as an insider. Yeah, so you're bringing up a

541
00:59:37.880 --> 00:59:40.000
really interesting point, and I didn't
even know that we would go here,

542
00:59:40.039 --> 00:59:45.840
but I'm glad that we are because
what I'm what I hear you saying is,

543
00:59:45.119 --> 00:59:50.079
you know, sometimes the sort of
the emic understanding, or the insider

544
00:59:50.199 --> 00:59:58.280
view is often within religious studies defined
as someone who is internal to the tradition,

545
00:59:59.079 --> 01:00:04.159
not necessarily by means of culture,
but by means of practice and engagement.

546
01:00:04.599 --> 01:00:10.800
You know, one who one who
sort of imbibes and and feels internal

547
01:00:10.880 --> 01:00:15.840
to the worldview and the philosophy of
that tradition and has adopted sort of the

548
01:00:15.840 --> 01:00:21.519
the so the let's say, the
epistemologies that one does, whether it's ritual

549
01:00:21.639 --> 01:00:25.840
or meditation, or some form of
practice or ritual to actually I don't know

550
01:00:25.920 --> 01:00:30.239
embody that tradition, and so what
I what I hear you may be suggesting,

551
01:00:30.239 --> 01:00:34.239
and I kind of want to hear
what you think about this is that

552
01:00:35.920 --> 01:00:39.679
and this is another thing that's been
criticized, of course by some academics that

553
01:00:40.000 --> 01:00:45.639
or you know, just people those
who are in that that that that this

554
01:00:45.119 --> 01:00:51.960
is that to be an insider of
the tradition, one must be of the

555
01:00:51.960 --> 01:00:55.280
culture like that that and that because
you were from India, you're from Bengali

556
01:00:55.320 --> 01:00:59.239
and you were internal to these traditions. Like when I hear you say,

557
01:00:59.440 --> 01:01:04.880
you're an in that seems defined by
this cultural specificy, this cultural location,

558
01:01:05.119 --> 01:01:08.880
right and culture and the kind of
immersion that you were and the way in

559
01:01:08.880 --> 01:01:13.079
which you embody, but my means
of being raised in it? So I

560
01:01:13.119 --> 01:01:19.079
guess my question is do you think
that it's not possible, you know,

561
01:01:19.159 --> 01:01:23.119
like Christianity, other religions, you
people convert to these traditions. How do

562
01:01:23.199 --> 01:01:30.079
you see Hinduism with regards to that. Can someone become an insider by means

563
01:01:30.119 --> 01:01:36.360
of their own adoption of these worldview
and practices or does one have to be

564
01:01:37.039 --> 01:01:42.480
a person raised within these traditions in
order to be an insider. Oh my

565
01:01:42.639 --> 01:01:49.159
god, that is such a difficult
question and it's such a minefield because while

566
01:01:49.199 --> 01:01:52.719
you say that I'm very much aware
that part of the thing, part of

567
01:01:52.760 --> 01:01:58.559
the arguments that being blue nationalists use
is that you know, knows of the

568
01:01:58.599 --> 01:02:02.039
tradition are simply born into the tradition, So you've got that kind of that

569
01:02:02.119 --> 01:02:06.880
kind of view. But on the
other hand, I'm also thinking of say

570
01:02:07.920 --> 01:02:15.079
African philosophers like Ungogi Watjongo, who
who really does make this argument in decolonizing

571
01:02:15.119 --> 01:02:21.440
the mind and in a very radical
way, that it's only someone who is

572
01:02:21.800 --> 01:02:32.440
who is born Black African who has
the right and the power to express a

573
01:02:32.559 --> 01:02:40.039
viewpoint about their traditions because they know
the traditions the best, and that argument

574
01:02:40.199 --> 01:02:47.679
is made as a kind of reclamation
of lost identity. So you've got two

575
01:02:47.840 --> 01:02:53.400
things going on here on either side, and I don't know what the right

576
01:02:53.480 --> 01:03:02.119
answer is. I think a strong
part of me, which is I mean

577
01:03:02.400 --> 01:03:10.960
a large part of me, which
is powerfully influenced by black decolonization philosophy,

578
01:03:12.039 --> 01:03:20.119
is by black decolonialist thinkers, does
think that you need to be from inside

579
01:03:20.119 --> 01:03:24.280
the tradition to really understand it,
you need to be from the culture to

580
01:03:24.320 --> 01:03:30.360
really understand it. But another part
of me also is critical, self critical

581
01:03:30.880 --> 01:03:36.519
and says that no actually you're thinking
like an RSS a hind nationalist person to

582
01:03:36.599 --> 01:03:40.360
say that if you can only understand
the culture best if you're born into it.

583
01:03:40.519 --> 01:03:45.360
So I'm actually not quite sure,
I think for the time being,

584
01:03:45.599 --> 01:03:52.760
because we are in a moment in
history where post colonial societies such as India

585
01:03:52.840 --> 01:03:59.760
are still finding their identity and still
reclaiming that lost identity which has been which

586
01:03:59.760 --> 01:04:04.639
has which has basically been taken away, and there's trauma that we have to

587
01:04:05.039 --> 01:04:12.840
go through generational trauma. That part
of me says, though, at this

588
01:04:12.960 --> 01:04:17.679
point and moment of time, I
need to make a commitment to the political

589
01:04:17.719 --> 01:04:21.800
stance that one needs to be from
within the culture to understand it well so

590
01:04:21.920 --> 01:04:28.519
that one can evaluate it, re
evaluate it, and thereby come up with

591
01:04:28.800 --> 01:04:36.199
a new post colonial a post colonial
identity, a South Asian identity. But

592
01:04:36.360 --> 01:04:41.280
at the same time, I'm not
a Hindu fundamentalist. Yeah, no,

593
01:04:41.880 --> 01:04:45.719
I really appreciate the honesty about this
because I think it's Islamic kingship today and

594
01:04:45.840 --> 01:04:53.280
you know, the joys and wonders
of the esthetic marvels of South Asian Islam

595
01:04:53.519 --> 01:04:57.280
was the topic of the day to
day in the classroom. So so yeah,

596
01:04:57.280 --> 01:04:59.840
I'm not quite sure where I stand
on that, Jacob. I think

597
01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:02.480
it's a really difficult question, and
we can go on and on talking about

598
01:05:02.559 --> 01:05:06.400
it. Yeah, I mean,
I really appreciate your your honesty about it,

599
01:05:06.400 --> 01:05:11.920
and I think I think it just
is one of those those questions that

600
01:05:12.639 --> 01:05:15.440
to be honest with yourself, if
you're a careful thinker, you end up

601
01:05:15.440 --> 01:05:18.800
in a little bit of a paradox
because because it you know, on the

602
01:05:18.800 --> 01:05:23.360
one hand, I mean, I, you know, I it's I'm honest

603
01:05:23.360 --> 01:05:29.840
about the fact that I practice within
a meditative tradition that derives from Shakhta Shaiva

604
01:05:29.880 --> 01:05:36.280
tantra and I and I and I
feel I feel connected, and that I

605
01:05:36.320 --> 01:05:43.639
would say that I'm an insider to
that tradition insofar as I am engaged with

606
01:05:44.719 --> 01:05:49.000
like I I am, I am
an insider to the worldview in which those

607
01:05:49.760 --> 01:05:56.079
the soteriological technologies make sense, right
I am, you know. And but

608
01:05:56.159 --> 01:05:59.039
at the same time, I did
not was not raised in India. I

609
01:05:59.119 --> 01:06:02.320
do not come, you know,
from a background where I was immersed in

610
01:06:02.400 --> 01:06:10.320
that. And I fully acknowledge that
there is an argument to the fact that

611
01:06:10.639 --> 01:06:19.199
by privileging too many voices within the
conversation, who were not raised in India

612
01:06:19.280 --> 01:06:24.079
and then having that take on like
this is what shaivism is or this is

613
01:06:24.079 --> 01:06:28.760
what shocksm is and those people did
not have the experience of being raised within

614
01:06:29.199 --> 01:06:38.239
the cultural framework of of India that
that it's a will it will be kind

615
01:06:38.280 --> 01:06:43.599
of painting a picture of that tradition
that is of a different flavor. And

616
01:06:43.719 --> 01:06:46.800
so that's the key thing that you
mentioned, that it's a different flavor.

617
01:06:47.480 --> 01:06:53.360
As long as it's like, you
know, it's like the kind of shakshakha

618
01:06:53.480 --> 01:06:57.559
that I make at home. I've
got it up from some recipe book.

619
01:06:57.599 --> 01:07:02.880
It's not really the traditional wonderful blo
orias shukshuaka that someone from a deep a

620
01:07:02.920 --> 01:07:06.840
Turkish household will cook for me.
I'm aware of it. I'm aware of

621
01:07:06.880 --> 01:07:14.559
it as long as I think one
is aware that there is there are roots

622
01:07:14.639 --> 01:07:18.320
and origins. That's where history is
important, because it tells you about the

623
01:07:18.440 --> 01:07:25.920
roots and origins of that particular cultural
practice that we are aware of that journey.

624
01:07:26.199 --> 01:07:31.719
And it's like sometimes you know,
when you forget the roots, you

625
01:07:31.920 --> 01:07:38.880
forget the kind of the trauma that
was. Sometimes there are histories of colonialism

626
01:07:39.119 --> 01:07:45.320
and slavery and things like that and
all these practices that have gone from one

627
01:07:45.400 --> 01:07:50.880
culture to another that people forget.
I think the key thing here is to

628
01:07:50.960 --> 01:07:57.599
be aware of the story and history
of that tradition, where it comes from.

629
01:07:58.119 --> 01:08:02.639
It's very important to know where it
comes from, because the danger is

630
01:08:03.039 --> 01:08:10.519
that when this when memory of where
it comes from is lost, that's when

631
01:08:10.559 --> 01:08:16.319
you take away the voice of the
original tradition. Yeah, and the power

632
01:08:16.319 --> 01:08:23.000
of the original tradition. That's where
you're appropriating. That's where that that's what

633
01:08:23.079 --> 01:08:30.560
we call cultural appropriation, where you
don't recognize, you don't value the place

634
01:08:30.680 --> 01:08:38.720
where that tradition started and the reasons
why it started and the people amongst whom

635
01:08:38.960 --> 01:08:45.000
it started. So knowledge, it
comes down to knowledge and awareness, being

636
01:08:45.199 --> 01:08:51.720
mindful and respectful, and valuing the
place where something comes from. M h

637
01:08:53.359 --> 01:09:00.600
yeah, absolutely, yeah, No, that's really well said. So speaking

638
01:09:00.640 --> 01:09:09.640
of kind of the the formative experiences
that are sort of part and parcel of

639
01:09:09.680 --> 01:09:16.720
how you relate to sunscrit and also
to the traditions of shockedism that you feel

640
01:09:16.760 --> 01:09:20.920
internal to. One of the things
that I just loved about you from the

641
01:09:20.960 --> 01:09:30.000
beginning was your chanting You're singing during
your book release, which I thought speaking

642
01:09:30.039 --> 01:09:34.880
of radical, you know, subversive
sunscript practices. I'm like, you know,

643
01:09:34.960 --> 01:09:39.720
this is not subversive, right,
This is this is quite a traditional

644
01:09:39.760 --> 01:09:44.880
way of engaging with sanscrit as.
You know. Anybody who knows any even

645
01:09:44.880 --> 01:09:48.359
a little bit about sunscript knows that
there is an incredible vibratory tradition of tradition

646
01:09:48.439 --> 01:09:58.199
of oral recitation. And and and
when I I one of the things that

647
01:09:58.239 --> 01:10:01.199
I'm kind of very passionate about is
the notion of and the position of the

648
01:10:01.199 --> 01:10:09.520
scholar practitioner, and and that my
approach to it has to do more of

649
01:10:09.560 --> 01:10:14.720
the kind of embodied pistemologies that I
feel are particular to studying something like any

650
01:10:14.800 --> 01:10:19.159
yoga tradition. Right, You're not
going to be able to understand the sort

651
01:10:19.159 --> 01:10:25.600
of concepts of yoga experience if you
are not engaging with the pistology embodied to

652
01:10:25.600 --> 01:10:30.520
pistemologies. So like, to me, it's almost That's another way I feel

653
01:10:30.520 --> 01:10:33.960
like this cultural appropriation argument can go
that I feel particularly passionate about is that

654
01:10:34.439 --> 01:10:39.680
you know that what is happening,
you know, particularly in academia, but

655
01:10:39.760 --> 01:10:42.760
also to a certain extent, you
know, they take on different they do.

656
01:10:42.960 --> 01:10:45.520
It happens in different ways in the
modern yoga community and then academia.

657
01:10:45.880 --> 01:10:51.800
In academia, they are they're engaged
from this quote unquote objective standpoint, and

658
01:10:53.359 --> 01:11:00.000
the sort of embodied practices or rituals
that would help one to kind of concept

659
01:11:00.039 --> 01:11:06.159
in a non discursive way, the
teachings or the concepts of those traditions they're

660
01:11:06.199 --> 01:11:10.199
not engaged with, you know,
they don't you know, academics aren't meditating

661
01:11:10.279 --> 01:11:13.920
generally, they're not chanting, right, They're not doing these things that are

662
01:11:13.960 --> 01:11:18.319
sort of perhaps one way we can
understand a dimension of understanding these traditions,

663
01:11:18.600 --> 01:11:23.800
of course. And then in the
yoga tradition, they are you know,

664
01:11:24.079 --> 01:11:30.079
I mean from a popular standpoint,
they are anesthetizing the yoga practice from its

665
01:11:30.199 --> 01:11:36.119
soteriological component, right, they are
kind of extracting the hot to yoga,

666
01:11:36.199 --> 01:11:42.319
right, the physical practices from the
spiritual context from which they derive, and

667
01:11:42.399 --> 01:11:45.119
therefore not actually giving the yoga an
opportunity to do what it's designed to do,

668
01:11:45.560 --> 01:11:49.319
which is to help you experience some
sort of you know, various forms

669
01:11:49.319 --> 01:11:55.159
of transcendent states depending on which tradition
you're looking at. So, then coming

670
01:11:55.159 --> 01:11:59.079
back to your approach, I sort
of saw you as being a kind of

671
01:11:59.159 --> 01:12:03.159
kindred spirit in this way. I'm
because the fact that you chose to,

672
01:12:03.960 --> 01:12:11.000
you know, to go a little
further in what would have in an academic

673
01:12:11.079 --> 01:12:14.439
environment where people are most of those
academics in that room are not going to

674
01:12:14.479 --> 01:12:17.319
go and release their book and chant
or sing. And I loved that you

675
01:12:17.359 --> 01:12:26.800
did that because it just showed a
kind of sensitivity and a vulnerability and creativity

676
01:12:26.880 --> 01:12:33.560
at your core as an academic.
But also you're you know, a subversive

677
01:12:33.600 --> 01:12:41.319
way that actually is quite traditional of
presenting sanscrit to an academic audience while also

678
01:12:41.439 --> 01:12:45.880
staying connected to the practice of the
recitation of Sunscrit. So that's a lot

679
01:12:45.920 --> 01:12:50.319
of talking. Uh So, Yeah, I'm just curious what you think about

680
01:12:50.359 --> 01:12:59.000
that and how you see your relationship
with sanscrit from a musical. I don't

681
01:12:59.039 --> 01:13:02.800
know if you see it as devote
perspective, how you see that playing into

682
01:13:03.039 --> 01:13:08.359
all the things that we've been talking
about in terms of your relationship with Sanskrit

683
01:13:08.399 --> 01:13:13.199
as an academic and as a as
a thinker. Well, before I give

684
01:13:14.319 --> 01:13:16.880
my answer, I should mention to
your audience that I don't know if your

685
01:13:16.920 --> 01:13:26.199
audience knows that Jacob, you are
a trained dancer and singer as well.

686
01:13:27.520 --> 01:13:30.880
I wouldn't call myself a trained dancer, but I mean I was. I

687
01:13:30.960 --> 01:13:33.439
was originally in musical theater, so
I had to do all of that,

688
01:13:33.680 --> 01:13:36.960
and and singing was kind of my
first love. So that's also, yes,

689
01:13:38.159 --> 01:13:42.680
you're right the back. The context
of this is also that hearing you

690
01:13:42.760 --> 01:13:45.800
sing also of course captures my own
and I think maybe that was also what

691
01:13:45.960 --> 01:13:48.439
appealed to me, is that I
was like, ah, someone who can

692
01:13:48.840 --> 01:13:55.000
combine the interest, the passions to
sing and to focus on on this path

693
01:13:55.039 --> 01:13:58.760
of study and integrated in such a
beautiful way. And yeah, that was

694
01:13:58.800 --> 01:14:02.159
also what appealed to me as well, was kind of that that those two

695
01:14:02.159 --> 01:14:09.159
things being brought together, so you
understand the joy of art, the joy

696
01:14:09.520 --> 01:14:15.640
of performance, the joy and nerves
a performance, just just the that that

697
01:14:16.079 --> 01:14:24.600
energy that happens when you're performing,
that moment where you feel you're lifted out

698
01:14:24.640 --> 01:14:30.399
of this space and there's something magical
that's happening right now, almost like witchcraft.

699
01:14:30.800 --> 01:14:36.119
I think you understand that. And
you're speaking to someone who is a

700
01:14:36.159 --> 01:14:45.119
frustrated singer. I trained in Indian
classical music for a very very long time.

701
01:14:45.439 --> 01:14:49.319
In fact, My first memory is
of my mother singing. She has

702
01:14:49.359 --> 01:14:55.920
a beautiful voice and she was trained
in the songs of Tagore. I am

703
01:14:55.960 --> 01:15:00.880
from a Bengali household, and it's
almost durger for any goalie child to be

704
01:15:01.000 --> 01:15:08.279
trained in the songs of Tagore.
My mum not just trained in it,

705
01:15:08.439 --> 01:15:12.119
she loves singing it and she's a
beautiful voice. So my first memory is

706
01:15:12.239 --> 01:15:16.920
lying on her lap, looking up
at her face and her singing accompanied by

707
01:15:16.920 --> 01:15:24.520
the thanpura. And from that time
on, music has been very close to

708
01:15:24.640 --> 01:15:31.399
my heart. It runs in the
family. I've grown up surrounded by people

709
01:15:31.399 --> 01:15:38.000
who love music, family friends who
are musicians. Music was the topic of

710
01:15:38.039 --> 01:15:44.880
the day, So I think,
deep down I am first a singer and

711
01:15:44.920 --> 01:15:51.119
then an academic. I think I'm
an accidental academic. And oh, I

712
01:15:51.119 --> 01:16:00.800
mean so much of the natural power
of music, which which is instinctive.

713
01:16:02.119 --> 01:16:05.319
I just feel. I feel like
Sanskrit. I learned it and I had

714
01:16:05.319 --> 01:16:10.279
to struggle with it, but I
was just born with music. It was

715
01:16:10.319 --> 01:16:17.800
a gift. And if one once
talking about transcendence, well that's I'm blessed

716
01:16:17.920 --> 01:16:25.119
that in my otherwise mundane life,
that's a touch of transcendence and I'm grateful

717
01:16:25.159 --> 01:16:29.159
for it that there is that that
music is the touch of transcendence in my

718
01:16:29.239 --> 01:16:38.800
life. And in a way,
singing Sanskrit poetry in Indian ragas is a

719
01:16:38.840 --> 01:16:45.520
way to reconnect with that transcendence.
Really, I don't think of it as

720
01:16:45.600 --> 01:16:50.199
doing something traditional. In fact,
I'm probably not chanting it according to the

721
01:16:50.239 --> 01:17:01.439
traditional way. I I compose uh
melodies to particular that also keeps up my

722
01:17:01.560 --> 01:17:08.239
practice and knowledge of the ragas.
And I take particular pieces of sensor with

723
01:17:08.359 --> 01:17:15.760
poetry that I feel will just be
totally different if it was experienced as music

724
01:17:17.439 --> 01:17:25.520
and I set it to music and
I sing it, and hopefully that gives

725
01:17:25.520 --> 01:17:31.000
a different a better experience of of
the of the poem. So yeah,

726
01:17:31.159 --> 01:17:41.079
I h It's a way for me
to keep in touch with a powerful spiritual

727
01:17:41.439 --> 01:17:48.399
dimension in me that I cannot explain
that I was blessed with and I'm grateful

728
01:17:48.479 --> 01:17:54.760
that I was blessed with it.
And when whenever I die, I want

729
01:17:54.800 --> 01:18:00.159
to die with the song on my
lips. That's so beautiful. What an

730
01:18:00.159 --> 01:18:02.119
incredible note to end on as well. Just I'm so glad we ended up

731
01:18:02.159 --> 01:18:06.840
here. I really, I'm so
glad. I asked you that because I

732
01:18:08.079 --> 01:18:11.760
really do feel I mean, I'm
actually in this place of a lot of

733
01:18:11.840 --> 01:18:15.600
shifts have happened recently for me,
and one of I started studying with a

734
01:18:15.680 --> 01:18:19.079
voice teacher again, and I was
I was kind of kicked out of a

735
01:18:19.159 --> 01:18:24.840
musical theater program, which is an
early adult trauma that is basically set me

736
01:18:24.840 --> 01:18:27.520
on the path that I'm on now. And I feel like I'm also an

737
01:18:27.560 --> 01:18:33.119
accidental academic, or I'm on that
path of becoming an accidental academic, and

738
01:18:33.159 --> 01:18:41.840
it's I'm always there's always kind of
music in the background that pulls me toward

739
01:18:41.920 --> 01:18:45.800
it, and and I feel like
there is this sort of, you know,

740
01:18:46.439 --> 01:18:54.119
journey in which I'm trying to integrate
these two aspects of myself. And

741
01:18:54.199 --> 01:18:58.119
I love that you mentioned music as
a reaching towards a transcendent or as a

742
01:18:58.640 --> 01:19:04.560
spiritual practic is because I I really
feel that, you know, just making

743
01:19:04.600 --> 01:19:12.680
a kind of perhaps polemical or philosophical
point that music is is already spiritual and

744
01:19:12.720 --> 01:19:15.359
the only reason that we experience it
is mundane is because we've forgotten, right,

745
01:19:15.399 --> 01:19:19.279
It's sort of this prettia bishina,
like if we could just recognize that

746
01:19:19.359 --> 01:19:25.920
it is already a spiritual practice.
Then you know, it's only in our

747
01:19:25.920 --> 01:19:31.319
culture that we have kind of put
it in this category of entertainment. So

748
01:19:31.359 --> 01:19:35.119
I'm really glad that you mentioned that, because you know, it's I think

749
01:19:35.199 --> 01:19:40.039
music is an easy way into the
spiritual for so many because it's sort of

750
01:19:40.039 --> 01:19:45.199
that last, that last kind of
universal thing that we all share. I

751
01:19:45.239 --> 01:19:47.720
mean, it's hard to find people
it built like musical music. Yeah,

752
01:19:47.800 --> 01:19:56.880
it's art, it's creativity, it's
it's shakti, isn't it. Yeah?

753
01:19:57.239 --> 01:20:00.399
Yeah? Wow, Well this has
been s a lovely conversation, Behani,

754
01:20:00.439 --> 01:20:05.600
and I'm so glad that we went
on for a little more than longer than

755
01:20:05.600 --> 01:20:10.840
I usually do, but it felt
really lovely. I hope your view is

756
01:20:11.119 --> 01:20:15.760
not bored. What's up? I
hope your viewers were not bored. Oh

757
01:20:15.880 --> 01:20:19.359
no, no, we went into
so many interesting areas and I didn't even

758
01:20:19.840 --> 01:20:26.520
touch on classical Sanskrit tragedy. But
maybe next time you'll have to come when

759
01:20:26.560 --> 01:20:30.039
you're in in London next time,
let me know, and we should.

760
01:20:30.640 --> 01:20:34.159
We should have a coffee and and
catch up. I would love to see

761
01:20:34.159 --> 01:20:38.880
you in person after so long.
You've got to tell me about your voice,

762
01:20:38.880 --> 01:20:44.399
coach. I will do yes.
So is there anything you know?

763
01:20:44.560 --> 01:20:49.800
Just again, I've been speaking to
Behani Souker and she is the author of

764
01:20:50.199 --> 01:20:54.800
two books right just to Heroic Shockedism. I have both of them here.

765
01:20:55.079 --> 01:21:00.239
Heroic Shockedism The Cult of Durga An
Ancient Indian Kingship, which is just as

766
01:21:00.279 --> 01:21:05.880
it sounds, an investigation of the
culture of Durga in ancient Indian kingship.

767
01:21:06.199 --> 01:21:14.359
A very interesting historical perspective and I
definitely recommend it if you are a student

768
01:21:14.720 --> 01:21:21.640
or an interested reader of Shaktism.
And then the second book, which I

769
01:21:21.880 --> 01:21:26.760
was at the book release party four
and I'm very happy to say what we

770
01:21:26.760 --> 01:21:30.560
were speaking of Behani when Bhani was
singing at the book release. It was

771
01:21:30.600 --> 01:21:38.039
for the book Classical Sunscrit Tragedy the
concept of suffering and pathos in Medieval India.

772
01:21:38.800 --> 01:21:41.560
And this was actually the first one
I read. Really super interesting because

773
01:21:42.039 --> 01:21:46.000
I love the kind of cross cultural
emphasis of it, the discussion of kind

774
01:21:46.000 --> 01:21:50.560
of I mean, obviously you were
focused on sunscrit, but the concept of

775
01:21:50.600 --> 01:21:57.079
tragedy being sort of monopolized in some
sense by the Western tradition, thinking that

776
01:21:57.119 --> 01:22:01.720
it has some sort of exclusive right
over that term and from what I understand.

777
01:22:01.760 --> 01:22:05.359
The point of the book really was
to illustrate the way in which we

778
01:22:05.439 --> 01:22:14.720
find tragedy represented in Sanskrit literature.
So those two books, get them at

779
01:22:14.720 --> 01:22:17.039
your local bookstore or on Amazon.
I believe you can find them there.

780
01:22:17.800 --> 01:22:21.800
And is there anything else that you're
working on behind in terms of book products

781
01:22:21.800 --> 01:22:26.920
projects you want to share so that
when people listen to this, if it's

782
01:22:26.920 --> 01:22:29.760
in the future, they can look
for that as well. Well. I'm

783
01:22:29.760 --> 01:22:35.760
working on a book called Wild Women
and Goddesses in Ancient Sanskrit Poetry and Mythology,

784
01:22:36.720 --> 01:22:44.680
So a lot of wild women there. I'm sure there's lots of people

785
01:22:44.680 --> 01:22:49.640
who relate to that, so cheke
that I'll be getting with that book myself.

786
01:22:50.760 --> 01:22:55.079
So yeah, look for Wild Women
if it's if it's in November of

787
01:22:55.159 --> 01:22:59.399
twenty twenty three, when this is
being interviewed, when is when do you

788
01:22:59.439 --> 01:23:03.319
have a d around when it might
be coming out twenty twenty five? Okay,

789
01:23:03.439 --> 01:23:08.119
so it's a little ways away.
I'm still right they're working on it,

790
01:23:08.159 --> 01:23:11.359
all right. Well, if you're
listening to this in twenty twenty five,

791
01:23:11.439 --> 01:23:17.560
look for Wild Women by Behneysucker And
otherwise it's been fantastic and I have

792
01:23:17.720 --> 01:23:21.920
to see you very soon. It's
been such a pleasure, and I'm sending

793
01:23:21.960 --> 01:23:30.600
you a big, warm hug from
my end and hope you flourish and sing