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Hello everyone, and welcome to the
latest episode of Hardwood Knocks. This is

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Out of from Here with my fantastic
co host Dan for Valley. We're gonna

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bring you another mail back episode today. We had so many good questions in

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our request for them, because I
wasn't the one that sent it, Dan

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did, which meant we actually got
responses, but we had so many good

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questions that we couldn't pack them all
into the episode. They're released last week,

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so we're coming back at you with
another one. And personally, I'm

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really excited for these questions because it
felt like these were more big picture rather

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than granular, just a lot of
like deep thought, thought provoking questions that

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we wanted to look at beforehand,
just to have like some idea of where

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we would go with them and all
that. But I personally really enjoyed getting

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these submissions. Yeah, so did
I. And we have we have ones

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that are more specific related to teams, and though I love those as well,

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especially some of them are related to
a lot of stuff that's been happening.

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There's one though, that was DM
to me days ago. It's like,

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that's how long I've had to prepare
and I still don't like have a

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good answer to it because it was
making me thinking for so long. So

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those are the those are the best
types of questions. So I am excited

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for this one. But before we
do dive in, how are you doing?

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I'm doing pretty well, coming off
a great weekend. We had this

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thing called Jurassic Quest that came through
Denver and they have like a hundred life

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sized animatronic dinosaurs and we took my
almost three year old son on Sunday with

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my family and just had the best
time. And he had a good time.

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Also, I saw pictures and videos, so I can't confirm that I

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think you had a good time.
Although the first video I saw I was

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I couldn't tell whether he was super
focused or petrified. Oh he was petrified,

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So he was. He was riding
an alasaurus and it was like moving

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around, kind of like a bucking
broncho kind of thing. He did not

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know what to think of that at
first. And the funny part is that

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it's very closely related to one of
my parents' stories about me. When I

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was a kid, we went parasailing
and I was terrified of heights, and

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we just had this sequence of pictures
where I am just sobbing, just cannot

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contain myself because I'm so just terrified
of what's about to happen. And in

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the span of five seconds, I
went from that to just this big shit

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eating grin And like the exact same
thing happened with my kid now on this

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dinosaur where we just have the sequence
of pictures where he goes from petrified to

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like a hesitant thumbs up, just
beaming. It's great. Genetics are weird.

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And you also did find a lightsaber
with a dinosaur hilt. Oh yeah,

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it was. It was like made
for him. I think every kid

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at this Jurassic Quest thing had one
of those. By the end, it

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was thirty dollars, which is ridiculous. Yeah, but that's like that's so

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crafted to him privily. If that
was a hundred dollars, you would have

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had to have bought it. We
would to Are you already diving in some

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basketball stuff? Though? I guess
are you sure? Let's tackle I mean

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a lot of these, even though
they're related to teams, are sort of

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bigger picture. This was not a
question we had, but I think it's

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one of the current event news items
that we need to tackle. The Athletic

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reported that the Kings are maybe possibly
thinking about putting Luke Walton on the hot

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seat if their performance doesn't improve.
They did beat the Pistons tonight, so

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there is you know, take that
for what you owe. They not to

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date that they beat them Monday night, which is when we're recording this.

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What do you sort of make of
this decision? To I guess the way

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our frame it is, why not
if you're gonna make this decision without also

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making any wholesale changes to the roster
over the off season and now come to

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this conclusion fewer than fifteen games with
the season possibly, why would you have

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not made this decision over the off
season when you could go through a more

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thorough coaching search help your team get
acclimated. And this says nothing of the

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disclaimer would be Luke Walton just shouldn't
have a job in the first place with

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that was always troubling to be hired
amid the sexual assault allegations, let again

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them, but this specifically, I'm
just curious this is here at that like,

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what is the what should why is
this the thought process? Sorry?

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Can you remind me which organization we're
talking about? The Sacramento case. There

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you go, there's the answer.
It's that simple, right like this,

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there's no way he should have been
hired in the first place. As you

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just mentioned, he shouldn't have had
a job for this long. If you're

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going to fire the guy, do
it after the second straight thirty one and

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forty one season in which you just
don't show that many signs of growth.

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So it should have been done beforehand. So I guess kudos to the Kings

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for arriving at that conclusion fifteen games
into the season rather than letting it drag

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on too long. Now, of
course we have to wait and see how

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long it'll take them to pull the
trigger, but there have been few tangible

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signs of progress. Even with a
roster that on paper looks like it should

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keep getting better. Deer and Fox
has been playing terribly this season. Has

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regressed in just about every area.
That's not what you want to see under

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a star player. And maybe it's
just a fifty in game sample and he's

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gonna progress closer to his mean as
that sample grows. But that plus just

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failing to maximize year two of Tyrese
Haliburton with Fox with Buddy Healed shooting lights

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out with Rashaun Holmes back in the
fold, Like, this team needs to

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show signs of growth and it's not. It's winning percentage is worse than it

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was each of the last two years. And I'm curious now, I wonder

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if we can figure out which coach
has had the most consecutive losing records to

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start a career, because Luke Walton's
on pace for six in a row and

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he's only coached for six years.
Wow, I didn't even really give thought

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to that. I'm with everything you
said on that front, and I don't

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on the Luke Walton front. Excuse
me, I think the not that I

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would understand, But if it was, if it's because he's owed another year

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after this one, that's sort of
just why you keep him. We're gonna

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fire him fewer than twenty games into
the season, Like, what's the difference

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to me? Because you get like
you just default to Alvin Gentry at that

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point. He probably gets a little
bit of a pay would you've had to

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play a new coach more than that? How much money you're actually saving by

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going through a quarter of this season
with Luke Walton as your head coach?

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I keep coming back to the fact, though, what necessarily were they expecting

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of this season? This would be
where I expected Sacramento to be. It's

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you didn't make a ton of changes
to the roster, like these are the

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I think Buddy Healed and Harrison Barnes. You've gotten some of the best basketball

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of their careers. H Shaun Holmes
has been really good. Tyres Halberton is

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still beyond rock solid. Darreon Fox
has struggled. You're probably almost encouraged that

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you're this close to five hundred,
while the Aaron Fox has not put together

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like this long stretch of good basketball
and his shot selection stone remains all over

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the place. He really needs to
work on his decision making with his handle.

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I I just don't like, what
were the expectations beyond this, Like,

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did you expect to be over five
hundred? Is it just you're stuck?

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You were stuck in the throes of
this, this losing streak. If

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this is a decision that you make
at any point over the next fifteen or

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so, I mean, if this
is a decision you make in the middle

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of the season, but you didn't
need more information on Luke Walton there,

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Yeah, Tyrris Haliburton could technically have
gotten better. You had Dave on Mitchell.

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Maybe you're expecting a bump and play
from barn Fox, but like,

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what was the information you didn't have
on this roster that was like, we

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need to see another partial season of
this before we make any decisions. And

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so I'm not advocating for him to
keep his job. I just think they

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should have one not hired him.
But two, the more serious one is

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that this is a decision that should
have been made over the off season because

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and also that's more on right now
at the point where this is more on

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the organization than Luke Walton. Because
if there if this, if they didn't

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have, if their expectations were anything
beyond this, like drastically, if you

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wanted them to be, you know, eight and six instead of six and

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eight. Okay, but like that's
still they're six to eight. That's not

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a huge difference. There needs to
be just like or realistic barometers within the

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organ like they need to gauge this
team more realistically than they have, and

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that's not necessarily Luke Walton thing Well, I think is not a good coach,

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not a particularly inventive coach. There's
been issues with maybe not so much

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this season, but definitely in previous
seasons where it doesn't feel like the Kings

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are playing properly, especially on offense. Their defense switched more neat like that

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was they played some of the most
needless switching defense that we've ever seen in

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the league last year. So I
just get all that, which is like

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you need to bring the organization,
like the governors, like that needs to

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be kept in check too, because
the deluded expectations aren't helping matters here.

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There's also the Marvin Bagley stuff where
you have a player who is still young,

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ostensibly with some potential, and you
have strife with him on the bench

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and to the point that he's not
entering games, Like that's not a good

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reflection on leadership, even if it
is ultimately the player's choice. I just

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I think I view this as a
sunk cost where they entered the season with

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him as the head coach. There's
no way that we can go back and

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change that. So even if we
want it to have happened that way,

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that's not a possibility at this point. What benefit is keeping him on the

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bench for even one more game half, What is going to change your mind?

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About Luke Walton's coaching and make you
think that he's the future of this

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organization on the bench with the clipboard. I don't think there's anything that can

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happen this year, even if they
make the playoffs, like that's a reflection

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on young talent growing in spite of
the coach. I just I don't think

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that there's anything to be gained from
it. There might be something to be

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gained from an interim head coach,
a new hire, altering a system and

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unlocking one of the young talents who
wasn't otherwise going to be unlocked, from

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seeing what that candidate can do in
the interest of potentially making a full time

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higher there's way more to gain than
to lose, I guess. So as

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we're recording this, two quotes came
out from Kings players. Tyr's Haliburton on

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Luke Walton. This is all per
of the Kings, Harold, you should

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follow them on Twitter at the Kings
Harold Tyrus Albert on Luke Walton. He's

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the coach, the leader of our
team. So he got his back tepid

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endorsement. This from Rashaun Holmes.
Rashaun Holmes was I would say far more

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definitive. Coach has done a great
job putting us in good positions and we've

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got his back, not like super
powerful, but is that something like do

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the players? Is he actually that's
been taught about before, is that he's

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able to relate to the players and
that they like him. Marvin Bagley play

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doesn't as I don't know how much
I blame Luke Walton for the Marvin Bagley

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stuff. That for sure, that's
more of a total organizational thing for me.

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I am with you, though I
don't know what the upside here was.

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I also asked Greg Whissinger when he
came on The King's Preview podcast,

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would you rather if I told you
the King's playoff drout? The question was

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basically, if I told you the
Kings playoff route ended this season, but

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that it then resulted in a Luke
Walton extension, would you wanted the playoff

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rout the end? And he didn't
know how to answer it, And it's

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like that there's probably a downside here. If we're thinking really big pictures,

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what if the King's turned around make
the playoffs? There's kind of a fool's

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gold element in are are they going
to go into next season with Luke Walton

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in the final year of his contract. That's not typically something we see with

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coaches. Maybe he does coach out
the last year of contract, maybe that

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forces them to get rid of him
anyway because he wants out, or does

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he get like what you know,
the one plus one extension type deal.

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So I agree with you that there
they should get rid of him if they

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want to. But the fact that
they didn't already and this is how it's

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playing out, it does feel like
it's a harbinger of not enough has changed

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aside like within the organization, aside
from from Luke Wallen. Then this is

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you know, post Vlodi Divox,
because he's the guy who hired Luke Walton.

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Then he is no longer longer there. So that's what's more troubling to

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me than anything. It's not if
they get rid of him, you know,

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kudos to them for arriving at that
decision way late, and it's not

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even a kudos thing. I think
it's the right call and you make it

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because, like you said, you
can't go back in time. It's just

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the fact that we're in this situation
again where it's just like a groundhogs Day

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type dilemma where Ken the King's it's
not even it is the question can they

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get out of their own way?
Because I don't think there's a big meme

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on the court. They have really
good players and so like the whole Kangs

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thing like it exists, but it's
also it's mostly off the court now,

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I feel like more so than on
right there with you. Before we move

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into the questions, though, if
any of our listeners can figure out which

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head coach has coached for the most
seasons without ever producing a winning record,

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because Luke Walton is on his way
to season number six qualifying for that,

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let us know at Hardwood Knox,
Dan will reward you with a personalized compliment,

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So obviously that's something worth doing.
Because a simple Google search did not

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give me an answer, and we're
curious. I'm sorry, I'm laughing.

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We just got a shop's notification that
the Sixers are finding Ben Simmons for not

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going on the six game road trip
with them. The whole fucking situations at

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Nightmare. We will not be discussing
on this pod. I'm not saying we're

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above it because I haven't read the
article. I want to read the article

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before talking about it. I'm just
talk about it, talk about another organization

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has been botching some off court stuff. Let's dive into this mail bag before

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we go super big like big picture
and more, you know, concepts and

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philosophical approaches to the game. A
couple interesting questions. This one comes from

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Brady is Jonas valanciunis the top runner
for most improved player at this time.

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Please I don't answer this point,
because please answer respectfully. That's all I

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would like to I don't have an
answer, though, because it feels like

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we've had eight hundred different players in
a similar question. This has become what

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does the Nicola Yokis need to do
to repeat his MVP question? Or something

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where we always get variations of some
type of that question when we send out

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a mail bag solicitation, and this
one's different because it's always a different player,

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but we automatically see either dramatic improvements
or in this case I don't mean

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to interrupted with you there, or
players just playing really well and producing more

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so at a higher clip than he
has in the past, and so we

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want to they want to be thrown
to the most improved player discussion, but

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please, I'm sorry, I hide
no no, you're good. I mean,

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like you know, I've thought that
Jannis Valentinis is one of, if

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not the most underrated player in the
NBA for years now. He started a

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game more recognition and he is objectively
having the best season of his career right

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now. And as we're recording nineteen
point six points thirteen point five, two

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point seven assists per game, he's
shooting fifty seven point seven percent on one

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point nine three point attempts per game. He's hitting ninety percent of his foul

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shots while getting there at four point
three times per game, which trails only

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what he did with the Memphis Grizzlies
during the twenty eighteen nineteen season. He

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is playing great basketball. He has
improved, he has not improved the extent

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necessary to become a Most Improved Player
candidate, because he was already probably not

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in the All Star conversation, but
on the tier below that, where like

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somebody might throw his name out and
you're not going to totally bulk, even

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if you laugh at them a little
bit. Like on that tier of NBA

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player to win Most Improved Player from
that, you need to be in the

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MVP conference station. We see guys
go from that level to the All Star

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conversation on a yearly basis at least, So he just hasn't he hasn't done

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enough to compete with the other guys
who have made even further strides. And

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that is not to say that he
has not been a good fit with a

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struggling New Orleans Pelicans team carrying an
inordinate amount of the offensive load right now.

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So it is not a knock on
his level of play. It's just

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a matter of fact about how this
award works. Yeah, and it's look,

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there can be some level of unfairness
because it's almost you have an easier

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better chance of winning Most Improved Player, and when you're working from a lower,

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less established baseline. That's not to
say that you can't win it if

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you are improving off of that high
pre existing standard, because I think you

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could have made people don't think of
it this way, though, I do

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think that's a problem. Like Stephen
Curry could have won it probably twice,

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maybe three times at this point,
so working from an All Star baseline,

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And so I'm not saying he would
be if someone voted for him now,

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Yes, I would think that it's
egregious even though he's having a career year.

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I just he is a little bit
sabotaged by the fact that he's been

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this really good player for quite some
time now and he's just not doing anything

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like super different. It's just a
matter of you know, when you look

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at his playing time over the past
few years, this is the three pointers

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are a little different. I mean, yeah, I mean fifty seven point

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seven percent shooting on threes, which
by the way, leads the league among

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qualified players if anybody cares. So
he's also averaging. It just feels like,

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you know, when you break it
down per thirty six minutes for him,

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his numbers are right in line with
his career average. This is just

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the first time that he's not only
played above thirty minutes per game so far,

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that's the first time he's ever played
above twenty eight. Twenty eight point

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three was his previous career high.
So you're playing more than five minutes per

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game above your career average. His
usage is probably inflayed it a little bit

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because Zion has been injured. Brand
Ingrams been injured, but he's been there.

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I think when you factor in brandon
Ingram's availability, probably the best player

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it's either him or or DeVante Graham. So I think he has has been

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for sure just really good and giving
them a presence on the offensive glass.

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His postop efficiency is down, but
he still has like that element to his

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game. He's been super efficient as
the role man. But yeah, I'm

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with you, I don't think he's
a Candidan. We've talked about this.

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You do have in Kate. You
already mentioned this. We're not hitting on

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your own sound tunas. There's a
YouTube clip on the hardware not to YouTube

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channel subscribe to hardworek not on YouTube
of Adam dedicating it to talk about why

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you go on to sound Tunis is
the most underrated player in the league.

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It was four last seasons. He
can go find that he might be friendly

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underrated. He's very good. I
mean, do you kind of think he's

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moving into that Mike Conley category though, where so many people have said he's

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underrated now that I think this season
in particular, he's getting the recognition.

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I mean, the fact that somebody's
asking this question. Yeah, no,

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that's that's also a great point.
I've also there was I've seen like jokes

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of there's been the you know,
everyone wants to talk about Zion's future when

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they talk about the Pelicans or even
free brandon Ingram, there's been like some

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you want to sal and chruna stuff
and he can be traded because of the

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way his extension was was worked.
It's not like this huge incremental race where

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he's ineligiably traded. What's tough with
him and I don't know that this would

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impact his most improved player case or
why he's underrated. There's no like obvious

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fit out there, which I think
is a problem you just run into with

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a lot of big men right now. Is he someone who can fit anywhere?

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But is there a contender that you
think needs you want his sal and

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tunis because he's not going to He
might be a defensive upgrade over some you

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know, Mason Plumbly and Charlotte.
Sure, but is he going to be

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a huge upgrade for anyone who've viewsed
themselves as a contender or fringe contender.

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There's no team that springs to mind. You're free to try and change my

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mind right now, But just like
you know you're I think you're staring trying

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to find one, but I couldn't
thinking and looking like I don't. There's

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no one that that comes and you
know he'd be fun. Oklahoma City might

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00:18:52,519 --> 00:18:56,319
be a contender. Now you know
they're they're just winning so often I get

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no reaction out of your face.
Would you would you trade? Would you

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trade James Wyman and Kevon Looney if
you're the Warriors? Probably not. I'd

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take I'd rather take this wing on
Wiseman. Look at how good your defense

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has been already, and you have
Clay coming back. Why do you have

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to men do it? I think
you would do it if you're Golden State,

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because you would get You've got to
be trying to capitalize on the window

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right now. The first thing that's
happening after this. You don't know what,

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of course, I don't know what
Clay Thompson's aging curve is gonna look

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like coming off all these injuries.
You don't know when the drop off is

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going to come for Steph. You
have an aging Draymond Green. You have

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to win right now, and Weisman
is your most appealing bridge player between this

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era and the next. But if
you can get Valancunis right now, I

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think you go all in this season. I wouldn't do it. We'll have

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to throw it to some We have
many resident Warriors fans who listen, but

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also that we text with. So
if any Warriors fans are out there,

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00:19:48,599 --> 00:19:51,319
let us know you weren't getting reactions
because I was making sure that that worked

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financially. If anyone has any thoughts
on that trade at promos zero and on,

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you can, but you think it's
a reasonable one, right, Like

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it's just it is. I can
see both sides of that one, which

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to me is always the sign that
it makes sense. I talked to our

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Trade Machine podcast. If you haven't
listened to that one, you should.

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Yeah, I thought I did think
about it. I think it's like kind

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of a fair one to ask.
So coudos to you for coming up the

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00:20:17,079 --> 00:20:22,599
heartbeat for New Orleans, right,
I mean as Wiseman's a terrible fit with

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Zion Williamson, so I don't I
don't know if the talent grab though,

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considering where you're at in that rebuilding, I just feel really bad, sort

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00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:33,119
of like pilfering through New Orleans as
roster and taking it. I feel like

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when everyone talks about New Orleans,
especially the national media, which we would

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00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:40,599
fall under that umbrella, not just
because of this podcast, but because of

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what we both do for a living, but it's always like, oh,

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what's going on with Zion, And
now it's like, oh, I have

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a good player, let's get rid
of them. Skimp pass the Brandon name

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00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:55,359
from discords and it's free onnest Balanciunis. I would love to see New Orleans

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full strength to try and figure it
out. But when you just look at

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their record right now, like they
would need to be go nine games ten

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games over five dred just to be
five hundred for the season. So you

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00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:07,440
need to start asking like those longer
haul questions. But I would like to

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00:21:08,079 --> 00:21:11,680
I acknowledge that this is quite premature. Yes, I would like to see

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the Pelicans atle so they're any Pelicans
fans out there, We're not We're really

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00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,039
not trying to do the low breath
stuff here. That was longer than we

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wanted to spend on that question.
Uh, Dean Lee asked, who's the

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00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:29,359
worst player in the league who's played
at least two hundred minutes this season?

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00:21:30,799 --> 00:21:33,279
I'm wondering if I am wondering if
Dean Lee, I'm sure he's listening to

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00:21:33,319 --> 00:21:37,880
this, had sort of this pre
existing answer in mind, which because that's

335
00:21:38,079 --> 00:21:42,799
just a very specific benchmark of two
hundred minutes is a very specific benchmark,

336
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:47,759
so I need to sore for this
question. Are you ready for a couple?

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00:21:47,799 --> 00:21:51,240
And I think I have two,
and I'm curious as to what you

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00:21:51,279 --> 00:21:55,759
think. Are you listening, I'm
gonna say, yeah, go for it.

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00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:00,160
I'm precious A Chewa might be up
there for me. He's played three

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00:22:00,279 --> 00:22:03,839
hundred fourteen minutes, has a true
shooting of thirty eight four, which is

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00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:07,440
that's incredibly low. And then he
was just moved. I don't know if

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00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:11,400
it's permanent, but they bounced him
from the Lakers starting lineup. But Ken's

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00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:15,559
Baysmore has been Ken Baysmore has been
bad. That was my answer. It

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00:22:15,599 --> 00:22:19,200
was Kevin Baysmore. It was Ken
Baysmore. I mean, it really depends

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00:22:19,279 --> 00:22:23,640
on what you mean by this question, too, because I think there are

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00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:30,920
a couple of different interpretations, Like
the least valuable player would probably be one

347
00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:33,119
of the rookies who struggled. Jalen
Suggs has been the least valuable player.

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00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,920
He's not the worst player in the
NBA or else. He wouldn't be getting

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00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:41,079
the opportunities to struggle that much.
So I kind of look at the people

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who aren't doing anything well and aren't
being asked to do too much that would

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00:22:45,759 --> 00:22:52,559
then contribute to them not doing well. So for me, like Kent Baysmore,

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00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:57,200
Frank Jackson, Jaden McDaniels has been
that bad this year, I will

353
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say he's still going to give you
the defense is imploded, but he's still

354
00:23:02,039 --> 00:23:03,480
going to do things on that.
And then like a Bay's Moore has not.

355
00:23:03,599 --> 00:23:07,720
I thought about him, and I
just here's the tough one though,

356
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:15,440
Russell Westbrook, does he do so
much actively bad stuff at this point that

357
00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:22,680
the few strengths that remain do not
cancel them out to that extent? My

358
00:23:22,799 --> 00:23:26,079
question? My answer is, I
don't know. I think there's a blueprint

359
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,480
him working in LA still and not
having Lebron. They're sort of sort of

360
00:23:29,519 --> 00:23:33,200
skews that as does. They are
leaning heavier into Anthony Davison the five.

361
00:23:33,279 --> 00:23:36,759
Now I would be reticent to go
with him, but if you are,

362
00:23:37,079 --> 00:23:41,240
that's someone who has so much influence
over the team while playing that you could

363
00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:45,279
argue maybe he's been like one of
the most damaging players, but does that

364
00:23:45,319 --> 00:23:48,759
make him the worst? And it's
a tough inferentiation. I agree that like

365
00:23:48,079 --> 00:23:52,279
and I'll qualify that I am not
a Westbrook cater, like I have defended

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00:23:52,319 --> 00:23:56,119
him vociferously for years at this point, more defense than he's played over the

367
00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:59,319
past few years. Hey, there
you go. But yeah, I do

368
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,400
agree that the you should be like
you can't an Xeyer Williams Okay, fine,

369
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,000
but like Kate Cunningham to this point, well not until tonight, until

370
00:24:06,039 --> 00:24:07,440
tonight, yeah, twenty five,
eight and eight, I think it was

371
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:11,759
tonight or we need to look.
Can we ask this question? Why is

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00:24:11,799 --> 00:24:17,440
basketball discourse so broken on Twitter?
I don't want to be older man yells

373
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:22,200
at clouds, but like we need
to get sometimes what Yeah, but we

374
00:24:22,279 --> 00:24:26,680
gotta get away from like trying to
deliver these ultra accelerated referendums in the NBA.

375
00:24:26,759 --> 00:24:30,440
This is not the NFL where every
game is more than five percent of

376
00:24:30,519 --> 00:24:33,640
your season at this point. This
is the NBA where it's far. Let

377
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:40,000
there are eighty two games and Kay
Cunningham like just to talk about like when

378
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:41,599
he first came back, this was
someone who lost a month of the first

379
00:24:41,599 --> 00:24:45,720
season of his career. So it
was just like it's great that Evan Like,

380
00:24:45,839 --> 00:24:48,920
yes, Evan Mobley has played himself
to the number one pick discussion.

381
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,400
But these are topics that are also
and Scottie Barnes as well, these are

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00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:57,480
topics that are going to bear out
over the next three, five, seven

383
00:24:57,559 --> 00:25:03,440
years. And I've just I've become
fatigued by what seems like an increasing mounting.

384
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:10,160
It's not even a subset, but
just like section category of NBA Twitter,

385
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:17,920
we need to have like these way
too serious debates over a player's existence

386
00:25:18,519 --> 00:25:22,920
after performances. It's not just the
game or looking at a larger sample.

387
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:27,119
It's zeroing in on that one performance
and then making me sweeping all too premature

388
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:33,000
declarations. I think the optimistic slant
is that at least that makes it more

389
00:25:33,079 --> 00:25:36,559
fun. When Kay Cunningham has a
game like you did tonight, I'll be

390
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:41,319
it in a loss because it just
looks even dumber. It's a little shot

391
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:45,400
and Freida, and then it allows
people to get off the tweets or engagement

392
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,319
they said Kay Cunningham was a bust. That's the other thing that I just

393
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:52,559
can't like wrap my head around different
different discussion. That was not that was

394
00:25:52,599 --> 00:25:57,319
my question. This question comes from
Carson. Who are your guilty pleasure teams

395
00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:03,519
to watch this season? Hmm.
I just That's tough for me because I

396
00:26:03,519 --> 00:26:07,640
don't really feel guilty about watching any
of them because there's always something to watch

397
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:17,559
for. So probably I don't have
a good answer, do you. I

398
00:26:17,559 --> 00:26:19,119
mean, like we should probably branch
it out beyond guilty pleasure? Who would

399
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:25,440
be like the most surprised? Which
team or teams have you enjoyed watching the

400
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,000
most that have surprised you like that
you didn't expect to enjoy watch? Probably

401
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:33,759
the Wizards. The Wizards have played
just way better, prettier offensive basketball than

402
00:26:33,799 --> 00:26:40,599
I would have expected. They're really
engaged defensively. They've been surprisingly competitive,

403
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,119
I mean, competing for the top
spot in the Eastern Conference at this point.

404
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,839
I did not have those expectations.
I'm pretty sure I hammered the under

405
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,880
which was already set pretty low going
into the season. So they're not a

406
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,000
guilty pleasure, but they have been
way more fun to watch than I ever

407
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:56,920
would have anticipated. The Heat too. I think we knew they were going

408
00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,160
to be good, but I thought
they would just everything down and make it

409
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,920
too ugly to really enjoy it,
even coming from someone who tends to enjoy

410
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:08,559
watching defense as much as offense.
But the way that they've operated on offense

411
00:27:08,599 --> 00:27:15,440
has also been really fun for the
watch. Washington's fantastic joys. Cleveland is

412
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,240
one for me. They're not They're
good. They're not a guilty pleasure now.

413
00:27:18,279 --> 00:27:19,200
But I didn't think Ricky Rubio was
going to be this good. I

414
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,680
thought Darius Gotten is gonna better,
but he's just been a delight. Of

415
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,000
course, the Evan Mobili stuff has
been up there, Jetty Osmen remembering how

416
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:30,640
to shoot threes has been big.
Jared Jared Allen has been buying large great

417
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,039
and like the pairing with him and
Mobley working defensively. Not something I expected.

418
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:37,880
That's definitely a case of I was
probably too low on the calves coming

419
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,160
in, but I just didn't think
that I was going to enjoy, especially

420
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:41,759
when it was announce that they were
gonna play bigger. I just didn't think

421
00:27:41,759 --> 00:27:45,799
I was gonna enjoy watching them.
I've loved the games that I've seen and

422
00:27:45,839 --> 00:27:48,519
the other team. For me,
I've been fascinated by them and I don't

423
00:27:48,519 --> 00:27:52,680
feel guilty for watching them. But
the Pacers I lose. There's I'm still

424
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,480
waiting. I just want T.
J. Warren to get healthy so we

425
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,240
could see their five best guys like
all at once on the floor for the

426
00:27:57,279 --> 00:28:03,279
first time ever. What the team
looks like. I'm just endlessly fascinated by

427
00:28:03,319 --> 00:28:07,279
them. It seems like they find
it. Earlier on, it felt like

428
00:28:07,279 --> 00:28:11,240
they were finding all these different ways
to lose games, whereaside from like the

429
00:28:11,319 --> 00:28:15,079
third quarters of Doom, there just
wasn't a pattern necessarily how they were fucking

430
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,359
up aside for maybe availability and then
like I lose track. It's not every

431
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,559
possession, but there's so much going
on on offense for them, sometimes in

432
00:28:22,559 --> 00:28:26,279
a good way that I like lose
track of what's happening. And so I've

433
00:28:26,319 --> 00:28:30,839
just tried to grapple with trying to
figure out their identity and I still don't

434
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,839
have it. Besides thinking that I
do believe they're going to be better than

435
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,920
their current record. Just suggest I'm
waiting and just see them get more reps

436
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,839
as they're more healthy. They've they've
given the ball to TJ McConnell a little

437
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,839
bit more and like taking these on
ball touches away from Christo Arte, which

438
00:28:45,839 --> 00:28:48,000
I think is helped settle them down
a little bit. Of course, character

439
00:28:48,519 --> 00:28:52,960
returns. They're just a team that
they might be and I don't know if

440
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,599
you have a different team for this, and that's sometimes when I gravitate towards

441
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:57,240
watching. I'm not going to pretend
to have a great feel for the entire

442
00:28:57,319 --> 00:29:00,599
league already, like I try and
attention, read, listen to podcasts,

443
00:29:00,599 --> 00:29:03,759
and watch. Even though people claim
I don't watch as much basketball as I

444
00:29:03,759 --> 00:29:07,680
can, but I think the Pacers
are the team in the league, good

445
00:29:07,759 --> 00:29:10,200
or bad, whichever I have.
I don't know that I have a feel

446
00:29:10,599 --> 00:29:12,440
for what they are, what they're
going to be by year's end. I

447
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:17,559
don't know if there's a team like
that for you. I think that's a

448
00:29:17,559 --> 00:29:21,839
pretty fair take. I also want
to nominate the Spurs for the original question,

449
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,319
just because I did not expect them
to be this good or this fun.

450
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,799
J John Tay Murray has made the
leap. Kelton Johnson's aggressiveness is always

451
00:29:29,839 --> 00:29:32,559
fun. You never know what you're
going to get from Lonnie Walker. Devin

452
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:37,880
Vassell's progression has been a joy.
So I did not expect to want to

453
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,920
watch the Spurs as much as I
have. But to answer your question,

454
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:49,160
I still don't have a feel for
the Clippers because they've been yeah, like

455
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:56,559
their results have been better than I
would have expected. Because We've seen this

456
00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:02,160
team before without Kawhi Leonard, with
Paul George carrying the load, with the

457
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:07,759
aging veterans around them. Nick Batoum
has been great, But I just don't

458
00:30:07,799 --> 00:30:11,599
know, Like I don't have a
feel for whether they can elevate their ceiling

459
00:30:11,759 --> 00:30:15,759
to where their talent suggests that it
could be. And I also just don't

460
00:30:15,759 --> 00:30:19,079
know when Paul George is going to
have the bottom fall out, because that

461
00:30:19,119 --> 00:30:22,359
tends to happen sometimes, as talented
as he is and as much of a

462
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:27,240
fringe MVP candidate as he's been to
this point. Yeah, that's a that's

463
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,200
a good point. There's also the
element of I think this one isn't as

464
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,160
big of an unknown, but as
Kauai going to play this season, the

465
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,480
answer would probably be know what's sort
of going on with Marcus Morris. They're

466
00:30:36,519 --> 00:30:40,000
calling him day to day, but
now he's at the point where he's only

467
00:30:40,039 --> 00:30:44,079
played how many games Marks Moors played
this season? Three? He's playing we

468
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:45,960
played two. I was wrong,
so Marks Morres played two games and listening

469
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,039
him his day to day with that
knee injury. How big of an issue

470
00:30:49,079 --> 00:30:52,440
is the point guard situation because of
how well PG is playing we already talked

471
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,359
about on the last Mailbag episode whether
we thought their offense had another gear without

472
00:30:56,359 --> 00:31:00,480
getting Kawhi back, what's going on
with Segerbaka's back. He played in the

473
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,559
G League a few days ago,
didn't have like the best game. But

474
00:31:03,599 --> 00:31:07,680
it's like, I actually liked the
idea of having veterans use the G League

475
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:11,440
to come back and that capacity if
they've been injured. But like, and

476
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,279
how much does he actually help with
what they need? Like he's not this

477
00:31:14,359 --> 00:31:17,799
super great rebounder. Does he compromise
your defense at any point? Does he

478
00:31:17,839 --> 00:31:19,680
really elevate your offense? I think
you can just argue by virtue of giving

479
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,400
you another floor spacing look in the
front court, he'll he'll help you there.

480
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,160
So there are a lot of questions. I just feel like this team

481
00:31:26,279 --> 00:31:30,519
is not known, but they're not
as much as I think that Their defense

482
00:31:30,559 --> 00:31:33,000
has been surprisingly good, and I
feel like that's the path through which they're

483
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:37,960
gonna have to win games. They
have to be like super feisty, consistent

484
00:31:37,119 --> 00:31:41,440
and malleable on that end, because
their offense is probably gonna have more wild

485
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:48,000
fluctuations since like Paul George is your
only bankable creator at this point, it's

486
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:49,319
not Pleso, it's not even Jackson, it's not a tomb, it's not

487
00:31:49,319 --> 00:31:53,680
gonna be Morris when he's healthy,
etcetera, etcetera. I think the reason

488
00:31:53,839 --> 00:31:57,680
that I went with them those because
when you said they're known, I think

489
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,920
it's more they should be known,
but they just aren't for whatever reason.

490
00:32:01,039 --> 00:32:05,720
And that's the part that's hard to
figure out. I think that's totally If

491
00:32:05,839 --> 00:32:10,000
Dave I would have expected them to
have been better offensively than defensively just not

492
00:32:10,039 --> 00:32:14,880
having Kauai, I would have thought
that maybe I was underestimating, like the

493
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:19,599
impact of Nick Mutuum and having Eric
Bledsoe and reading too much into hell bad.

494
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,680
He wasn't defensively New Orleans last year. He's been pretty bad on offense

495
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:24,799
for the Clippers this year, though. I was gonna say that's another reason

496
00:32:24,839 --> 00:32:28,240
that they're going to be better on
defense and offense. I'm with you on

497
00:32:28,279 --> 00:32:30,279
the Spurs, by the way,
though this is I did this in the

498
00:32:30,279 --> 00:32:32,400
one interesting stat for each team episode, if any wants to go back and

499
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:37,519
check it out. The Spurs are
second in the league in average possession time.

500
00:32:38,039 --> 00:32:44,359
Second, do you think Greg Popovitch
just dies a little inside I think

501
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:47,519
there's a part of me. I
think he's been like visibly frustrated. I

502
00:32:47,519 --> 00:32:52,359
feel like with the wild fluctuations from
Derek White and I think some of the

503
00:32:52,359 --> 00:32:54,599
half court stuff, I feel like
he's fucking loving this. I feel like

504
00:32:54,640 --> 00:33:00,200
he's enjoying himself. Long Live Pop
and I'm here if he's going to be

505
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,799
here for the rebuild as long as
it doesn't prevent them from actually rebuilding,

506
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:07,200
which doesn't seem like it does.
I'm here for it. And look,

507
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,839
he wasn't playing Daddy as young before
Peartle went into the least health and safety

508
00:33:09,839 --> 00:33:14,359
protocalls. I think, so it's
like he's really vibe the leaf, the

509
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,920
Leaf, the youth movement. So
I'm here for it. Oh, this

510
00:33:19,079 --> 00:33:23,160
question is definitely hyperbolic, but Timmy
asked, is Damar top five in the

511
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:28,319
league. I'm just gonna adjust this. Would Damar crack the top seven to

512
00:33:28,359 --> 00:33:34,920
ten on your MVP ballot right now? M probably not, but he'd be

513
00:33:35,119 --> 00:33:38,640
right there. I think when we
did the actual award ballots in an earlier

514
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:43,640
episode that I had him listed as
one of my honorable mentions, but like

515
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,559
not one of the leading ones.
I think that there's just enough high end

516
00:33:47,599 --> 00:33:52,759
candidates that without the Bulls, like
going on ten game win streaks while he

517
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:58,599
thrives as a solo star. Which
is part of the issue is that as

518
00:33:58,599 --> 00:34:01,680
good as he's been, zach Lavine
has been greatest well at times, I

519
00:34:01,759 --> 00:34:07,960
just don't see the narrative element being
there to take down again, as you

520
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:12,480
said, like seven to eight leading
contenders, because there are that many superstars

521
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,320
playing well there is. I don't
know if he where he belong on the

522
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:21,599
MVP ballot. I do think his
acquisition was highly underrated, and I've mentioned

523
00:34:21,599 --> 00:34:23,880
this, people complated too much what
the opportunity costs to get him was with

524
00:34:24,119 --> 00:34:28,199
how much he brought to the Bulls. And I still think there's a convert

525
00:34:28,559 --> 00:34:30,880
This is the conversation's gonna be worth
having, at least through the end of

526
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:32,760
the season when you see what this
team actually does. Did they give up

527
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:37,239
too much to get him? What
impact did the Voots trade have on what

528
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,039
that meant of how much they had
to give up to get Demara Rosen to

529
00:34:40,039 --> 00:34:44,840
get off Alpha a Communi's deal as
part of that trade. So that's a

530
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:49,280
separate debate. But he's been so
critical as having like that other studying ball

531
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:52,159
handler has made life easier on zac
Lavine, not all the on off courts,

532
00:34:52,159 --> 00:34:54,199
but love him he had I'm not
even looking at this. This was

533
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:58,960
a few days ago. Shocker there, right, he had the highest defensive

534
00:34:59,079 --> 00:35:01,400
net ratings swing in the league in
a positive direction. This was just that.

535
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,719
This will be just the third time
of his career. By the way,

536
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,639
if it holds that his team has
performed better defensively with him on the

537
00:35:07,679 --> 00:35:10,079
court, which is just talk about
Alex Caruso, Lonzo Ball, Drevant de

538
00:35:10,159 --> 00:35:14,639
Green like really playing well and helping
prop him up. Also, I like

539
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:16,519
that they started Alex Caruso a power
forward the other day. That's a that's

540
00:35:16,519 --> 00:35:22,159
a digression there. I don't I
think as someone who has struggled to shoot

541
00:35:22,159 --> 00:35:27,480
threes or wouldn't shoot threes, his
value has always been oversimplified. I do

542
00:35:27,559 --> 00:35:30,960
think he's a player that demands a
specific kind of fit, but sometimes I

543
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:34,519
think we overrate and efficient, you
know, whatever he's scoring at this point.

544
00:35:34,519 --> 00:35:37,400
I didn't even paid attention to his
points per game this season. When

545
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:40,519
you look at him though, he
has never since twenty fifteen sixteen, dating

546
00:35:40,519 --> 00:35:44,880
all the way back, he has
never rated lower than the seventy fifth percentile

547
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:49,159
as a scorer out of the pick
and roll, and like having that option

548
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,440
on this team is just huge because
it was never gonna be Lonzo ball and

549
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,679
it was really only Zach Lavine and
then like you had Kobe White who's been

550
00:35:55,679 --> 00:35:59,599
injured, but like that's not I
just don't know that his game is to

551
00:35:59,679 --> 00:36:04,360
over see the floor. Demarta Rosen
is an actual floor general, and you

552
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:07,199
know, looking at okay, twenty
six point one points per game this season,

553
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:09,679
like, yeah, sometimes I just
feel like we overrate and the number

554
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:13,880
just might be inflatable, Like he
even looking at last year his true shooting,

555
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,000
Like do we just overrate scoring twenty
three? Did you say that again?

556
00:36:16,159 --> 00:36:19,039
No? SERI, I can't say
that again. My watch is going

557
00:36:19,079 --> 00:36:22,840
off last year, Like are we
just going to overrate Demarta Rosen scoring twenty

558
00:36:23,119 --> 00:36:25,760
like twenty Look at just the past
few years, as I'm stammering through,

559
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:30,880
this is just twenty plus points per
game and just consistently the past two seasons

560
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,559
at least being around sixty true shooting. Sometimes we just overrate that his ability

561
00:36:34,559 --> 00:36:36,840
to get to the foul line,
the work he actually does inside the awk.

562
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:38,440
But I think his playmaking more than
anything, and the threat he poses

563
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:45,079
as that pick and roll creator.
On the Basketball Reference MVP Award tracker,

564
00:36:45,119 --> 00:36:49,920
which is based on historical correlations between
different stats and team winning percentage and all

565
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,480
that and previous voting results, he
does come in at number seven right now,

566
00:36:52,599 --> 00:36:55,519
which I think is pretty reasonable,
you know, because you're seven eight

567
00:36:55,599 --> 00:36:59,519
cut off, I think is the
appropriate one for the record. The players

568
00:36:59,559 --> 00:37:04,679
above him Chris Paul at number six, Montrese Harold at number five, which

569
00:37:04,679 --> 00:37:07,000
I think speaks to the perils of
doing that with this kind of sample size,

570
00:37:07,639 --> 00:37:10,599
Jimmy Butler at number four, Kevin
Durant at number three, Steph Curry

571
00:37:10,639 --> 00:37:15,079
at number two, Nicola Yokich at
number one. Elsewhere in the top ten

572
00:37:15,119 --> 00:37:19,159
we have James Harden at eight,
Rudy Gobertt nine, and Janis Donda Ducumpo

573
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,639
at number ten. I would bump
both of those above him, Montrase Harold

574
00:37:22,679 --> 00:37:25,559
down. So yeah, I think
like right around eight is pretty appropriate.

575
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:29,559
Yeah, I think he's I'd probably
say that he could even go. I'd

576
00:37:29,559 --> 00:37:31,480
probably put him in my top seven
even there's like probably one of those names

577
00:37:31,519 --> 00:37:35,880
he would bounced, not Jimmy,
not Yokich, not Steph. It feels

578
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:42,920
like it's Yokich in a solo tier, Stephen Katie as the one bees right

579
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:46,039
now, and then there's a pretty
big drop off. Maybe you want to

580
00:37:46,079 --> 00:37:50,239
throw Jimmy Butler in a tier of
his own, and then there's a bunch

581
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:52,559
of candidates kind of clustered together.
I might put Staff on the same level

582
00:37:52,559 --> 00:37:57,039
as Yokich. I'm not gonna lie
that's fair. Yeah. I mean though

583
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:01,000
I have Yokich number one at this
point, but eight the Moors brothers that

584
00:38:01,079 --> 00:38:07,119
much. Absolutely, It's really hard
to decry what Steph is doing now because

585
00:38:07,119 --> 00:38:12,440
it's been ridiculous, very hue egocentric
player. You could say this question comes

586
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:16,800
from and it's not biased at all. Steph lover Steph versus Magic Johnson playmaking

587
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:22,320
impact. I guess this was a
debate on Twitter the other day. I

588
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:25,320
looked at I just don't know what
there's The way they PLAYMAK is so many

589
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:30,320
different. It's so different because of
Steph, Like what he does away from

590
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:32,119
the ball is a form of playmaking, because of his gravity. I know

591
00:38:32,159 --> 00:38:37,079
people are tired of mentioning that,
but I do think Steph has been underrated

592
00:38:37,119 --> 00:38:39,400
as a passer or at least his
like impact when he's on the ball.

593
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:43,079
And so the thing that I looked
at for this and there's just no there's

594
00:38:43,079 --> 00:38:49,280
no definitive number. Backpicks dot Com
from Ben Taylor has the box creation,

595
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:52,880
which is an estimate of the number
of open shots created for teammates per one

596
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:59,880
hundred possessions. And so I looked
at just the highest box creation scores off

597
00:39:00,159 --> 00:39:04,719
of creation scores in single season in
the history that he has put up,

598
00:39:05,199 --> 00:39:09,119
and so Magic Johnson has like the
higher of the two. He has the

599
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:13,239
Steve Nash by the way, as
three is the three of the top five

600
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,159
seasons of this metric. Johnson has
the eighth best season, Steph has the

601
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:21,840
ninth and tenth best season. As
the box creation in there, they're both

602
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:24,159
just making players around the better.
I guess the caveat here would be two

603
00:39:24,519 --> 00:39:29,440
sixteen, twenty seventeen. Russell Westbrook
ranks first in this metric, and so

604
00:39:29,519 --> 00:39:32,400
like there is this still like I
think that you know there is there a

605
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:37,719
per like hundred possessions version of this
because I can see Westbrook's involvement just being

606
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:43,039
so through the roof. I mean, he broke box box plus minus to

607
00:39:43,119 --> 00:39:46,199
the point that the stat was redone, So it wouldn't surprise me if it's

608
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:51,320
If it's the kind of formula that
he's breaking is here as well. I

609
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:53,960
would say that he's probably broken it
less than other formulas because he's only appearing

610
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:58,840
like once at the tippy top of
these seasons and he has a couple more

611
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:00,599
than the top twenty, but having
only one of the top ten. But

612
00:40:01,159 --> 00:40:04,840
I feel like, I don't know, like if you were looking at the

613
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,599
ROSSI you're gonna go with magic over
Steph. And I think if you're going

614
00:40:07,639 --> 00:40:09,320
to go with a poa same with
like the pure passive ability, for sure,

615
00:40:09,639 --> 00:40:14,400
yeah, you would still go magic
over step I still think Steph is

616
00:40:14,519 --> 00:40:17,039
one of the super underrated pastor.
He's a great passer, but like,

617
00:40:17,079 --> 00:40:22,000
yeah, magic is magic. He
is untouchable in that category. It's yeah,

618
00:40:22,039 --> 00:40:25,440
his form of playmaking, it's just
not it's not the Nash Chris Paul

619
00:40:27,159 --> 00:40:30,840
Magic Johnson type stuff is all.
And so I think you would take magic

620
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:35,199
in this discussion rather hands down.
But like on your all time ladder of

621
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:37,039
overall players, is Steph gonna have
a chance to userve magic? Johnson?

622
00:40:37,079 --> 00:40:40,800
Has he already userved Matchic Johnson probably
not already, but I think he definitely

623
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:45,000
has a chance to I've not done
all that even that I think is pretty

624
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:49,199
close. Like, I do think
this is a legitimate question just in terms

625
00:40:49,199 --> 00:40:52,519
of playmaking, assuming we're we're counting
that off ball playmaking, which we have

626
00:40:52,599 --> 00:40:58,559
to because it matters so much.
But how do you compare those two concepts,

627
00:40:58,559 --> 00:41:01,000
Like do we even do we know
if Ben Taylor's formula is accounting for

628
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:08,159
gravity? Reading through, it does
not look like he's accounting for gravity.

629
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:12,440
So so based on that, like
Steph might be the pick, Like if

630
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,079
we're not even including that and they're
already comparable, and there's also the you

631
00:41:15,079 --> 00:41:17,880
know you're having H. Well,
I guess this wouldn't be an issue for

632
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:22,000
Magic Johnson, but the three point
line is definitely impacted like some of the

633
00:41:22,039 --> 00:41:23,679
standings when you're when you're looking at
that's for sure. But yeah, I

634
00:41:23,679 --> 00:41:27,440
mean, if this is a passing
conversation, then come on, that's not

635
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:32,440
a question and that's not an insult
to Steph does have a non three version,

636
00:41:34,039 --> 00:41:37,840
So factoring out that in nineteen eighty
six eighty seven, Magic Johnson has

637
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:44,760
the highest box creation score of the
non three version. So Russell Westbrook did

638
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:46,880
not break this one, although he
does finish third in two ten twenty eleven.

639
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:51,440
That's interesting. But of the top
ten in the non three version,

640
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:55,199
Magic Johnson appears three times, and
so that's four times in the top eleven

641
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:59,760
if you care. So and Steph
does not appear once in the top twenty,

642
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,159
I can keep going top thirty.
So yeah, that's not definitive,

643
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:08,199
but to try and adjust it a
little bit more. This question was dm

644
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:14,679
to me from hoop informatics. We're
diving into the big picture, more philosophical

645
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:21,119
conceptual questions. They ask what players
have too much focus on what they do

646
00:42:21,199 --> 00:42:24,000
poorly and not enough focus on what
they do well. My example was Lonzo

647
00:42:24,039 --> 00:42:29,440
Ball, a stereotypical point guard,
runs ball, screen offense, attacks basket,

648
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:32,039
and can create shots a Lonzo Camp. But he's a six six basketball

649
00:42:32,079 --> 00:42:36,840
player who creates havoc on defense,
excels and transition rebounds, can shoot,

650
00:42:37,159 --> 00:42:39,800
and provide spacing in the half court, all valuable attributes of a player.

651
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:45,079
So which players are underrated because the
focus is on what they can't do rather

652
00:42:45,159 --> 00:42:49,880
than what they can provide to their
team. I love this question because it's

653
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:54,360
you with it. I already took
that. Well, we're dropping. You

654
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:59,519
know, it's one of the primary
reasons that I end up reeling, rooting

655
00:42:59,519 --> 00:43:02,960
for, and falling in love with
watching certain players, because there are The

656
00:43:04,039 --> 00:43:07,480
primary way to be recognized in the
NBA is to score a lot of points.

657
00:43:08,119 --> 00:43:13,760
It's as simple as that. Where
you know that's points per game is

658
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,840
the number one category that people are
going to talk about, the casual fans

659
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:19,840
are going to talk about. And
I don't mean that as an insult,

660
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:23,519
because there are different levels of fandom
and then there should be. But once

661
00:43:23,599 --> 00:43:30,760
you dive into the true value of
a player, it's easier to find those

662
00:43:30,199 --> 00:43:34,639
those diamonds and the rough who are
making big contributions on the defensive end but

663
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:38,079
can't shoot, who are phenomenal passers
but can't shoot. You know, there's

664
00:43:38,079 --> 00:43:42,639
a trend here, like the players
who are really good in one area and

665
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:45,960
really struggle as shooters. And I
think that you can find just a ton

666
00:43:45,039 --> 00:43:50,239
of examples of those those kind of
players throughout the league. Whether it's Marcus

667
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:53,960
Smart because so much attention had always
been paid to his shooting and it's improved

668
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:59,119
now and people don't want to recognize
that he has become a valid off ball

669
00:43:59,159 --> 00:44:04,480
threat. Ricky Ruby, guy who
before the Seaton at least define this season,

670
00:44:04,559 --> 00:44:08,880
I was standing still small sample,
especially with something as volatile is shooting.

671
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:14,960
But you know, Ricky Rubio,
a guy who I don't think his

672
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:21,079
ridiculously good passing, his creative finishing
around the basket, Like he had that

673
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:25,280
underhanded scoop layoff layoup down pat and
it was super entertaining to Washington. It

674
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:30,840
was effective because it kept defenders on
the interior offbeat. But because he wasn't

675
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:32,679
a big score, because he wasn't
a good shooter, because he shot such

676
00:44:32,679 --> 00:44:38,119
a low fieldable percentage. I don't
think those elements of his game got appreciated

677
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:43,199
nearly enough. Do you think Nerland's
no elegants enough credit? Because he's just

678
00:44:43,199 --> 00:44:49,320
this ridiculously rangey defender who reeks havoc
on an unreal number of plays in his

679
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:52,039
relatively limited run. But he doesn't
do anything on offense, so he doesn't

680
00:44:52,039 --> 00:44:55,920
really get recognition as a valuable player, you know, unless we're talking about

681
00:44:55,960 --> 00:45:00,800
like people who are doing free agency
breakdowns and how much play should be paid

682
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:05,079
and trade columns and like people who
are paid to put forth that kind of

683
00:45:05,079 --> 00:45:07,960
content, like, sure, they're
going to recognize his value, but he's

684
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:12,320
not appreciated in the overall basketball watching
world. So I just I think there

685
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:15,480
are a lot of examples, and
Lonzo might be one of the very best

686
00:45:15,519 --> 00:45:20,599
ones. He provided a lot of
value even with the New Orleans Pelicans,

687
00:45:20,639 --> 00:45:23,760
but the conversation was always about what
he wasn't rather than what he is.

688
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:30,679
And it's a trend that's fairly common
for top picks who don't really pan out

689
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:35,519
to the level that you want them
to, because it's hard to let go

690
00:45:35,599 --> 00:45:40,079
of those expectations and divorce yourself of
the notion that that peak could be achieved,

691
00:45:40,119 --> 00:45:45,000
that that potential could be realized,
even if all evidence has been to

692
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,880
the contrary. So we really struggle
to accept that those guys. I think

693
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:52,199
Cody Zeller is a great example,
where as a top three pick, you

694
00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:58,079
want him to be a superstar,
but he provided significantly above average play to

695
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:02,440
Charlotte for a substantial hill amount of
time and provided about the amount of value

696
00:46:02,559 --> 00:46:07,679
that you can expect historically from his
draft slot. And that kind of guy

697
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:12,400
doesn't get appreciated because there's that red
flag that he didn't live up to his

698
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:17,000
potential on his resume. It happens
at the higher level too, not so

699
00:46:17,079 --> 00:46:21,760
much of they're not living up to
their resume, but if they're not having

700
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:25,400
conventional star output. Or Rudy Gobert
probably be a perfect example of oh can

701
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:30,239
he be played off the floor and
the question the question is invalid because it's

702
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:34,719
so much more nuanced than that he's
not a big who is punishing mismatches in

703
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:37,360
the post. Part of that might
be because the Jazz aren't having him do

704
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:40,239
that, but that was even a
thing with Kyle Lowry, where just he

705
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:45,239
didn't have those gaudy numbers. I
think also when you look at non stars,

706
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:49,320
because I think like a Draymond or
Al Horford, maybe their peaks were

707
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:52,039
a little bit underrated because they well, Draymond had his defense, but Al

708
00:46:52,079 --> 00:46:54,840
Horford his peak was probably underrated because
he wasn't remember the focus on like his

709
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:59,599
rebounds per game and or just like
he didn't score enough, but he just

710
00:46:59,639 --> 00:47:04,000
did every thing. Kyle Anderson has
felt like he's forever underrated because he does

711
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:07,119
no he's not. He definitely was
limited. He's more of a shooter now

712
00:47:07,159 --> 00:47:08,880
than he's ever been. But he
does so many things well, but he's

713
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:13,599
just not dominant in one area that
that almost works against them too. I

714
00:47:13,639 --> 00:47:16,320
do think Lonzo Ball was like probably
the perfect case study here, and you

715
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:20,239
can come up with, you know, others, whether it's role players or

716
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:22,280
like I said, guys who are
maybe at like the higher level. I

717
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:27,639
will say that it does feel what
makes Lonzo Ball unique because it feels like

718
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:30,840
a lot of the players in these
examples are mostly going to be people that

719
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:36,519
defend so well, and they're viewed
as having a glaring offensive weakness rather than

720
00:47:36,559 --> 00:47:37,840
the other way around, probably because
of how much we value offense. And

721
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:42,239
so Alonzo checks the box in the
sense that like, he has a glaring

722
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:45,840
void in his game relative to the
position he's supposed to play, but he's

723
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:49,559
not he's not supposed to be a
point like Colin Sexton would be another good

724
00:47:49,559 --> 00:47:52,599
example of this not different player from
a Lonzo Ball. But because Colin Sexton,

725
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:57,480
like wasn't could get tunnel vision on
drives, isn't the best passer,

726
00:47:57,679 --> 00:47:59,800
could have his game ball out a
little bit before the rim, and I

727
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:02,639
know he wasn't great necessarily this season
before he got injured. He did have

728
00:48:02,679 --> 00:48:07,360
some issues on defense, but like
he didn't appreciate like what he did last

729
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:13,239
season where he was scoring twenty four
plus points per game on just super efficient

730
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:17,000
shooting splits, so fifty plus percent
on twos and over thirty seven percent on

731
00:48:17,079 --> 00:48:21,440
three. So I do think there
are players like that, but Lontotball does

732
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:24,800
feel like the quintessential one at the
moment of the hundreds of possible answers,

733
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:29,760
I think he's still like the leading
candidate. But I do think you're talking

734
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:34,719
about twenty five thirty percent of the
league is just yeah, under I do

735
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:40,480
think that the reason that I legitimately
think the number is that high is because

736
00:48:40,519 --> 00:48:46,559
of the toxicity of the type of
basketball discourse that relies on denigrating one player

737
00:48:46,599 --> 00:48:52,119
to prop up another. Because so
much of how we discuss basketball, just

738
00:48:52,199 --> 00:48:59,679
as an overall NBA watching fan base, is about using one player's flaws as

739
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:04,000
the reason that the other players better, rather than focusing on what gets done

740
00:49:04,039 --> 00:49:08,599
really well. So we hear the
constant chatter about players flaws and it doesn't

741
00:49:08,599 --> 00:49:14,239
matter if their role players or rookies
or MVP candidates. Like how much of

742
00:49:14,559 --> 00:49:20,880
the discussion about Yokich always is about
his defense and his defensive shortcomings and whether

743
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:24,480
he's grown into a good defender,
and even peak Westbrook, the conversation was

744
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:28,280
about the turnovers, and with James
Harden it's about his style of play.

745
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:34,320
And it's one thing after another where
so much of the primary focus driven by

746
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:39,719
a national media that's looking for controversies
and looking to sell based on negativity.

747
00:49:40,199 --> 00:49:46,480
Every player has their flaws discussed at
nauseum and their strengths are not discussed to

748
00:49:46,559 --> 00:49:52,719
the same level. That's fair.
Daddy is young, another name is praise

749
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:57,159
mine, probably for his entire career. Basically, yeah, absolutely might fall

750
00:49:57,199 --> 00:50:00,920
into the more like all around player
type heal than just with limitations on the

751
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:02,280
ball. So yeah, I guess
there are a lot of players. I

752
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:07,800
like that you went from my impassioned
argument to Thaddy is young. I'm very

753
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:10,360
passionate about that. HM is probably
just if there was like someone who fit

754
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:15,519
this mold for their entire career,
where Lonzo is still earlier in it,

755
00:50:15,679 --> 00:50:17,920
there's time for him to because I
do think there are players who have probably

756
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:22,800
like played themselves out of this.
Al Horford might be one of them,

757
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:24,480
or maybe a Draymond Green at one
point where people thought he was a top

758
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:29,119
ten or fifteen player at one time. I don't think Lonzo Ball is ever

759
00:50:29,119 --> 00:50:31,079
gonna get to that height. But
Thaddy is young feels like he's sort of

760
00:50:31,079 --> 00:50:37,519
been in that bucket his entire career. I could not disagree with that.

761
00:50:38,199 --> 00:50:45,800
This next question comes from Nick's watcher. Do you think people who work with

762
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:51,400
advanced stats slash models from the guys
who make the models to the analytics accounts

763
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:54,360
on Twitter, do you think they
do a good job communicating why they should

764
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:58,800
be used, their usefulness, and
how they work to the fan bases that

765
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:01,760
are consuming them. If no,
how can that be changed? Should it

766
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:10,679
be? I think in general the
conversation isn't what it should be. Maybe

767
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:19,559
it's partially an inability to explain it
properly and partially partially an unwillingness to grasp

768
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:23,679
the conversation and the topic. Like
we can only hear Charles Barkley talk about

769
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:30,000
why analytics are dumb because of insert
invalid reason here so many times to think

770
00:51:30,039 --> 00:51:35,119
that there's a little bit of like
willful ignorance going on. But that said,

771
00:51:35,199 --> 00:51:38,840
like, I don't think it's been
communicated that analytics isn't just like advanced

772
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:45,039
statistics. That's not the same thing. Analytics is discovering, interpreting, and

773
00:51:45,079 --> 00:51:54,559
then communicating what the takeaways from the
data is so without like realizing how these

774
00:51:54,559 --> 00:51:59,800
things are applied. No, I
don't think that a good job is done

775
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:02,320
in general, and at NBA math
we're probably guilty of that too. You

776
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:06,800
and I try to add context to
some of the stats that are out there,

777
00:52:07,159 --> 00:52:12,199
but like when I tweet out just
the faces and stuff without a context

778
00:52:12,199 --> 00:52:17,000
for every single player, like that's
probably not the best pure conveyanced method of

779
00:52:17,159 --> 00:52:23,119
an analytical an analytical approach. Yeah, so there's a lot of thing and

780
00:52:23,159 --> 00:52:28,920
it's interesting, it's informative, but
I don't think it's as good at as

781
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:32,440
it could be. I do think
so their degrees to this one of them.

782
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:37,000
I think a lot of these methods
are proprietary, and so you're not

783
00:52:37,039 --> 00:52:42,079
going to necessarily know the formulas the
approach that goes into the mall and I

784
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:45,280
don't know, you know, when
you're looking at stuff that's not from a

785
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:50,159
conglomerate, like like you could probably
argue that maybe ESPN the real plus minus

786
00:52:50,599 --> 00:52:53,199
the formula should be made public there, and I don't believe it's ever been.

787
00:52:53,639 --> 00:52:55,960
It has never been. If it
has, I'm not right up on

788
00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:00,320
it. But like when you're dealing
with more of these independent blogs and sites,

789
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:05,800
I would never fault them for not
making their proprietary stuff available because like

790
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:09,480
they you're not this, like you
don't have this this huge backing. I

791
00:53:09,519 --> 00:53:13,320
do think the other thing, and
I'm definitely I've gotten better at this.

792
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:15,920
I think is I've gotten older,
and I've always been good at at least

793
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:20,119
trying to read to understand. And
I'm not going to pretend to necessarily be

794
00:53:20,199 --> 00:53:22,599
an expert in it, but like
we need to admit when we don't understand

795
00:53:22,679 --> 00:53:25,679
something, And like I'll just use
examples as someone who has done like line

796
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:30,360
up rankings and try to find the
best way to like use regression models or

797
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:34,960
just averaging smaller samples like the luck
regression. That shit still goes over my

798
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:37,440
head. And so like I read
up on it, and there are people

799
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:39,719
that do it that I really trust, and so there's a I don't want

800
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:45,559
to say to blind faith, but
like I'll take what they're delivering, what

801
00:53:45,679 --> 00:53:50,360
their models returning, as fact or
at least useful. The other thing is

802
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:53,000
we can't interpret anything is gospel,
and that's whatever catch all metric it is,

803
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:58,480
whether it's TPA, whether it's real
plus minus, whether it's regular eyes

804
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:01,719
adjusted plus minus. But would drip
now there's something raptor Draymond. There's like

805
00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:07,280
eighty different ones out there at the
moment. And I do think though,

806
00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:10,320
that the I don't even want to
call it the analytics community, because I

807
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:15,239
think people in the analytics community have
been I hate calling it that, but

808
00:54:15,679 --> 00:54:19,159
I don't. I don't know.
There's no one that I value who's opinion

809
00:54:19,199 --> 00:54:22,639
on value that hasn't at some point
pointed out that you need to blend everything

810
00:54:22,679 --> 00:54:28,239
that's available, and stats and analytics
overall are just a way of you've already

811
00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:31,239
sort of alluded to this, gaining
more information, interpreting that information, and

812
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:36,480
then applying all we should always want
more information. I get why it could

813
00:54:36,519 --> 00:54:40,000
be overwhelming, but it's not.
I don't know anyone who's just looking at

814
00:54:40,079 --> 00:54:45,559
numbers. And I do think though, and this is not I don't I

815
00:54:45,599 --> 00:54:49,119
hate I don't want to make this
a generalized statement. I don't necessarily know

816
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:55,800
how approachable people who some people who
are maybe in these positions with they're relying

817
00:54:55,840 --> 00:55:00,400
on, Like they're disseminating the analytics. They might be so fed up with

818
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:04,360
people claiming they don't watch basketball,
or that these numbers don't work, or

819
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:07,400
that numbers are stupid. How approachable
are you going to be when you're asked

820
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:10,239
about your formulas or why this is
what it is. And I also just

821
00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:14,639
don't think social media in general,
and this is where a lot for the

822
00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:20,000
NBA specifically, people forget that,
like Twitter is just the very small bubble

823
00:55:20,519 --> 00:55:23,800
and it's not as large as like
a Facebook or Instagram with people on there,

824
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:30,199
but like it's so representative of such
a finite demographic. And with the

825
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:34,760
MBA, I do feel like it's
how we are consuming and getting a lot

826
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:40,079
of our information or opinions are being
conveyed. Now as writing continues to I

827
00:55:40,079 --> 00:55:44,679
don't want to say die out,
but be on life support at least a

828
00:55:44,679 --> 00:55:49,800
certain form of it. It's not
built for nuance, and so that's going

829
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:52,360
to contribute to this as well too. And then there's just they're people,

830
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:55,400
whether it's disingenuous or not, They're
just going to have their agendas and so

831
00:55:55,440 --> 00:56:00,440
if something works for them, And
I think we talked about this on the

832
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:05,480
the podcast. When NBC Sports affiliate
with the Warriors tweeted out the graphic of

833
00:56:05,519 --> 00:56:08,559
Steph being in the top five of
individual defensive rating, it's did you take

834
00:56:08,559 --> 00:56:10,880
the time to consider what went into
that stat? And maybe you did,

835
00:56:12,519 --> 00:56:15,599
and then you probably didn't care because
it just fits this model of either we

836
00:56:15,639 --> 00:56:19,320
get engagement or prove something that I
already believe to be true, or I

837
00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:22,480
need to prove to be true and
I'm not. I hate I feel like

838
00:56:22,519 --> 00:56:23,920
I'm on a soapbox right now,
but it is something I've at least thought.

839
00:56:24,079 --> 00:56:27,920
I've already been on one this episode, so go go for it.

840
00:56:28,119 --> 00:56:30,679
What did you say? I said, I've already been on one a couple

841
00:56:30,679 --> 00:56:34,360
of times this episode, so you
can borrow the entire episode one. Yeah.

842
00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:37,880
So it's just everyone's imperfect. Every
stat is imperfect. And I do

843
00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:44,400
wish that there was more of,
you know, cooperation between two different schools

844
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:46,320
of thought, but I don't.
I also don't think it's as warring as

845
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:50,920
some make it out to be.
We just see the extremes that make the

846
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:52,719
headlines or that go viral on Twitter, that are most aggressive on Twitter,

847
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:55,639
because that's how this that's how that
app and that's how the way you know,

848
00:56:55,639 --> 00:57:00,480
the NBA discourse works. Even the
people that think they're they're just people

849
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:05,239
who've become insufferable because they think that
they're just like above every single form of

850
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:08,280
basketball discourse that is normalized. And
so I understand the league is probably too

851
00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:14,000
transaction heavy, but let the focus
of the coverage. But like there is

852
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:16,079
a place to talk about transactions,
you don't have to be completely above it.

853
00:57:16,119 --> 00:57:19,880
So there is This probably speaks to
a larger issue about the way the

854
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:23,079
league is covered and presented. But
looking at this question specifically, I think

855
00:57:23,119 --> 00:57:28,440
it's a great question. I do
think there's always a better way to simplify

856
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:31,000
information or put more of an effort
into conveying it. But I don't know

857
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:35,599
that is there going to be a
huge payoff, Like how many people are

858
00:57:35,599 --> 00:57:38,679
willing to actually consume that that nuance, how many companies are willing to invest

859
00:57:39,239 --> 00:57:44,159
in these sites that are coming up
with these statistical you know, the independent

860
00:57:44,159 --> 00:57:49,599
statistical models that are that are fantastic. I also think, what what doesn't

861
00:57:49,599 --> 00:57:51,800
help? But I understand like a
lot of this stuff is behind a paywall

862
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:53,760
too. It's like if you don't
subscribe, and I subscribe to so many

863
00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:58,000
different sites, but you don't subscribe
to Cleaning the Glass or be Ball Index,

864
00:57:58,199 --> 00:58:00,760
you might not necessarily have a chance
to understand what these stats mean,

865
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:07,079
aside from when those parent handles tweet
out you know, the singular graphics in

866
00:58:07,119 --> 00:58:09,079
general, and that's your chance to
get the context. I don't fault anyone

867
00:58:09,079 --> 00:58:14,239
for me behind a paywall by the
like you need to doing that ship for

868
00:58:14,239 --> 00:58:15,800
free, Like that's exhausting. So
I'm just saying I don't know that there's

869
00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:20,440
a solution I do. I would
be of the mind that these people are

870
00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:22,800
way smarter than I am. I
do obviously think there's a better way to

871
00:58:22,840 --> 00:58:28,199
convey the information and to create like
some sort of synergy between you know,

872
00:58:28,719 --> 00:58:31,280
not I test Twitter verus analytics Twitter, but to move beyond that even being

873
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:35,840
a thing, because I don't I
don't know that there's like I test versus

874
00:58:36,199 --> 00:58:39,199
analytics Twitter right like that is an
outmoded concept to me. I've seen it

875
00:58:39,199 --> 00:58:42,280
blended more and more. I feel
like as the years go on, it's

876
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:46,159
just the way we talk about it
lacks that context and nuance. I think

877
00:58:46,199 --> 00:58:51,840
there is some analytics gatekeeping in in
play too though, for sure, where

878
00:58:52,039 --> 00:58:55,320
there's a lot of elitism about it, and you know, sometimes there's looking

879
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:59,360
down on people who don't understand it, which makes it harder for them to

880
00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:01,159
understand it, an off putting for
people who are interested, you know,

881
00:59:01,199 --> 00:59:05,559
so on and so forth. So
I think it's a combination of just so

882
00:59:05,599 --> 00:59:08,920
many factors. Anything could always be
better. Were probably might answer here,

883
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:13,199
and there's now fourth answer. But
that's a great question, and thank you

884
00:59:13,199 --> 00:59:15,119
for asking it, Nick's watcher.
I guess you're a Nets fan being a

885
00:59:15,159 --> 00:59:20,280
Knicks watcher. This will be the
question we end on. And it's one

886
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:24,239
that Adam has been itching to answer. Maybe it comes from well you made

887
00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:27,119
us wait, so you better have
been itching to answer it. It was

888
00:59:27,159 --> 00:59:30,360
gonna be on The last mail bag
comes from Jay. How do the new

889
00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:36,559
foul rules and three point shooting regression
impact the future of heliocentrism? Is it

890
00:59:36,639 --> 00:59:40,239
no longer the high powered strategy it
once was? For anyone who doesn't know

891
00:59:40,280 --> 00:59:44,880
what helio centrism is, I hope
I'm not mis explaining it. But it

892
00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:47,320
was basically coined by Set part now
of the Athletic and the mid Range Theory

893
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:52,360
book where it's just basically being star
focused, like singular player focused, the

894
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:59,920
highest true usage player focused, and
there has been this season. Everyone knows

895
01:00:00,039 --> 01:00:02,840
there's been the emphasis on the referee
when it comes to I guess natural offensive

896
01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:07,320
movements however you you want to call
it. And three point shooting, like

897
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:10,559
the average is just and we've seen
offense in general, like the productivity has

898
01:00:10,599 --> 01:00:16,039
been down at least from previous season's
averages. And then right now when you

899
01:00:16,039 --> 01:00:20,559
look at the average three point shooting
of the league, I believe I don't

900
01:00:20,559 --> 01:00:22,079
know which year it's at the lowest
from because I've not checked in a while,

901
01:00:22,119 --> 01:00:25,639
but the average three point oh it's
thirty Oh wait, that's the that's

902
01:00:25,639 --> 01:00:30,639
the frequency us with. The average
three point accuracy of a team right now

903
01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:34,039
is thirty five percent. And this
is I don't want to use just one

904
01:00:34,079 --> 01:00:37,800
season to justify anything, but last
season, the average clip from beyond the

905
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:42,199
arc outside of garbage time, we're
thirty seven point two percents. Like that

906
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:45,920
is a pretty fairly substantial singular season
drop off. But the larger question general

907
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:50,320
I think is interesting and I'm curious
Adam as to what you think about it.

908
01:00:51,079 --> 01:00:54,079
I actually don't really think. So
you don't think it's interesting. No,

909
01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:57,960
I do think it's interesting. I
don't think it's really going to change

910
01:00:57,960 --> 01:01:04,360
that much. It's still really tough
to read into league wide trends this early

911
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:12,320
in a season, because this has
been an exaggerated version of the early season

912
01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:16,480
scoring dip we've seen in a lot
of seasons. Because there are always rule

913
01:01:16,559 --> 01:01:21,320
changes in play, you're finding a
rhythm with your teammates. It's a little

914
01:01:21,320 --> 01:01:27,639
bit easier for defenses to dominate because
still should have done it in the offseason

915
01:01:27,840 --> 01:01:31,400
exactly. You know, there's one
thing after another. There are just myriad

916
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:36,599
reasons. But we do typically see
a bit of an early season offensive malaise

917
01:01:36,639 --> 01:01:39,960
before it trends back up. So
I think reading too much into this right

918
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:45,159
now is dangerous. We're probably going
to see a little bit of a version

919
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:49,039
on some of these foul calls,
because I think pretty much everyone would admit,

920
01:01:49,039 --> 01:01:52,800
even the biggest proponents of this rule
change, that it's been called it's

921
01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:55,760
been the whistles have been swallowed a
little bit excessively. Like there are some

922
01:01:55,800 --> 01:01:59,000
plays where it's like, yeah,
like that was a foul. I get

923
01:01:59,079 --> 01:02:01,199
that you're just trying to use that
as a point of emphasis, but eventually

924
01:02:01,199 --> 01:02:05,320
those are going to be called.
Eventually players are going to adjust. We're

925
01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:08,480
still talking about really talented, superstar
players who have the ball on their hands

926
01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:14,159
for a reason, and they have
spent their entire lives to this point overcoming

927
01:02:14,519 --> 01:02:17,159
what defenses have thrown at them,
what referees have thrown at them. Because

928
01:02:17,519 --> 01:02:21,840
to get to this level, you
need to be able to adjust, because

929
01:02:21,880 --> 01:02:25,079
you're eventually going to move up from
junior varsity basketball to varsity basketball and face

930
01:02:25,119 --> 01:02:29,280
a whole new set of defensive challenges
that you then have to overcome. This

931
01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:31,519
isn't anything new for these players,
even if it requires an adjustment period,

932
01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:37,760
even if there is some initial stubbornness. I just I think these lead ball

933
01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:42,079
handlers, the guys who were talking
about, is heliocentric because the entire offense

934
01:02:42,440 --> 01:02:45,920
revolves around them at all times.
They're just too fucking good at basketball for

935
01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:50,639
this to change that much like there's
no reason for the Atlanta Hawks to take

936
01:02:50,679 --> 01:02:53,239
the ball out of Trey Young's hands
more frequently, the same goes for Luca

937
01:02:53,280 --> 01:02:58,119
Donchech with the Dallas Mavericks, because
every possession is going to be better when

938
01:02:58,119 --> 01:03:00,320
he's touching it. The same is
true of Nicole Yo Kitchen, Steph Curry.

939
01:03:00,360 --> 01:03:04,519
The list goes on and on when
we're talking about stars of that caliber.

940
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:09,880
So even if there are some slight
deviations, some changes of directions,

941
01:03:09,880 --> 01:03:15,719
some regressions during it, this is
where basketball is naturally going to go as

942
01:03:15,760 --> 01:03:21,159
we get players who are increasingly that
much better than everyone else at everything.

943
01:03:22,320 --> 01:03:24,159
And you could maybe I'm off base
here, but the way I thought about

944
01:03:24,199 --> 01:03:29,719
it too is we've seen the way
that teams have been built fundamentally change over

945
01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:34,280
the past like twenty years, where
it's like you're not building your team around

946
01:03:34,320 --> 01:03:38,679
Dwight Howard anymore. That's not happening. And so the progression here would be

947
01:03:38,840 --> 01:03:44,199
if there are players, or if
there's a certain archetype of player to where

948
01:03:45,039 --> 01:03:49,000
they don't they're not as good within
the new rules or the way that the

949
01:03:49,039 --> 01:03:52,599
game is being played, you're going
to gravitate towards a model or a player

950
01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:57,159
who can play within that. And
like the example here just might be which

951
01:03:57,159 --> 01:04:00,480
of these perimeter players I think I'm
with you I players We've already seen sort

952
01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:03,719
of an uptick in the way James
Harden is playing Don Chitz has even not

953
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:06,719
been up to as usual standard.
He'll get better. Most is this,

954
01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:11,679
I think is adjusting. But just
like if they're someone who can still get

955
01:04:11,719 --> 01:04:14,280
to the free throw lot, if
you can't get to the foul line anymore,

956
01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:16,440
because this is the way that the
rules have been changed, someone who

957
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:19,320
can still get to the valle line
but is in that point of attack role

958
01:04:19,360 --> 01:04:23,119
as well, they're just gonna become
inherently more valuable. So I think it

959
01:04:23,119 --> 01:04:28,519
accentuates maybe a certain type of heliocentric
star, but I would be shocked if

960
01:04:28,519 --> 01:04:33,440
it all together moved like or even
if we see a negligible nudge in the

961
01:04:33,440 --> 01:04:39,199
direction of not building a team in
that vein because we've for so long I

962
01:04:39,199 --> 01:04:43,159
think your league has just been associated
with you need to have a superstar.

963
01:04:43,280 --> 01:04:45,880
And I would argue probably now too
people think to win a title. There

964
01:04:45,880 --> 01:04:49,800
are exceptions, but until that becomes
the standard that I think that's what would

965
01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:55,480
have more of an impact would be
if we see like a twenty fourteen Spurs

966
01:04:55,559 --> 01:05:01,719
team win championships plural or like that
Pistons team in two thousand and four,

967
01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:05,599
right, I get the year,
right, I can't remember, so that

968
01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:09,599
it would be something to watch,
but I don't think that would shift the

969
01:05:09,679 --> 01:05:12,519
way that teams were built more than
this, I believe, but I don't

970
01:05:12,519 --> 01:05:15,840
know if that's like sort of a
disconnect the way I'm evaluating it though,

971
01:05:15,920 --> 01:05:18,559
against what the question actually is.
I just think the players who can't play

972
01:05:18,559 --> 01:05:21,559
well within these rules, those are
the ones are going to build around at

973
01:05:21,599 --> 01:05:25,480
the point of attack, whereas it's
someone and I can't even think of a

974
01:05:25,519 --> 01:05:32,519
player who's just legitimately going to be
that like more than fractionally worse because of

975
01:05:32,519 --> 01:05:35,000
these rules. People made the jokes
about James Hard, but like he's already

976
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:39,480
on the comm from this. Yeah, I think everyone's I mean, sure,

977
01:05:39,559 --> 01:05:43,400
like he might decline a little bit
because honestly, like, well,

978
01:05:44,559 --> 01:05:47,599
thirty one is an old but he's
over there. I do think that,

979
01:05:47,880 --> 01:05:55,719
if anything, we're going to see
the heliocentrism trend continue to elevate incoming seasons

980
01:05:56,119 --> 01:06:01,039
because the other thing here is just
increasing medical technolog oology, increasing awareness of

981
01:06:01,079 --> 01:06:05,360
how to take care of your body
from a workout standpoint, from a sleep

982
01:06:05,400 --> 01:06:11,239
standpoint, from a eating standpoint,
you know, just the ability for players

983
01:06:11,320 --> 01:06:16,639
to reasonably shoulder this kind of load
coupled with the advent of these rest days

984
01:06:16,679 --> 01:06:21,079
for players and load management, like
players are now geared to come into the

985
01:06:21,159 --> 01:06:28,239
league and immediately pushed for the all
time record and usage percentage and still assist

986
01:06:28,320 --> 01:06:31,199
on over half of their teams made
shots like Luca don Chich. Isn't supposed

987
01:06:31,199 --> 01:06:38,079
to happen a player to be this
dominant in this big of a role,

988
01:06:38,639 --> 01:06:42,079
this quickly and this seamlessly. But
we're going to see more and more of

989
01:06:42,119 --> 01:06:45,400
that because players are getting better.
And you know, players now are better

990
01:06:45,440 --> 01:06:47,639
than they were five years ago,
are better than they were ten years ago,

991
01:06:47,639 --> 01:06:50,920
are better than they were twenty years
ago. If we're comparing greatness with

992
01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:56,639
an era that's obviously different, but
just in terms of basketball ability, physical

993
01:06:56,679 --> 01:06:59,800
ability, they're getting better and they're
going to keep getting better. It's not

994
01:06:59,840 --> 01:07:03,480
like we've reached some assmtote and they're
just not going to improve. So I

995
01:07:03,519 --> 01:07:08,880
think that in spite of these efforts
to curtail it a little bit to make

996
01:07:08,920 --> 01:07:13,159
the game more esthetically pleasing, all
of that, we're just going to see

997
01:07:13,199 --> 01:07:18,880
players continue to go down this archetype
and continue taking it to that proverbial next

998
01:07:18,960 --> 01:07:24,519
level that was a fantastic answer.
You know the rules though around here or

999
01:07:24,519 --> 01:07:27,000
whatever, Adam use the word to
ask them toote. We automatically have to

1000
01:07:27,079 --> 01:07:29,679
end the podcast right there. I
actually did want to follow up, don't

1001
01:07:29,719 --> 01:07:32,159
ask you? Is what would be
the Is it just what I said before?

1002
01:07:32,239 --> 01:07:35,639
Is there anything that could get NBA
teams away from the model, this

1003
01:07:35,760 --> 01:07:40,519
heliocentric model, and it's I don't
even know if it's a player archetypes as

1004
01:07:40,559 --> 01:07:44,639
much as it's a style now because
it is about the control or influence you

1005
01:07:44,800 --> 01:07:46,559
or your team. I'm just curious
as to what it would take, if

1006
01:07:46,599 --> 01:07:49,559
anything, at that point, to
deviate from what has become. I guess

1007
01:07:49,559 --> 01:07:55,039
that the trend pattern here, whatever
you want to call it. Maybe it's

1008
01:07:55,039 --> 01:08:00,719
like some sary salary cap changes now
if you put like a true hard cap,

1009
01:08:00,719 --> 01:08:03,079
and I guess I would do the
opposite, if you went soccer style

1010
01:08:03,119 --> 01:08:06,800
and removed the salary cap entirely,
and you got a lot of stars like

1011
01:08:06,880 --> 01:08:13,440
actively playing alongside each other, Like
I'm not talking about like what we have

1012
01:08:13,559 --> 01:08:17,239
now, but like multiple heliocentric stars
wanting to play together. So something like

1013
01:08:17,279 --> 01:08:23,199
that potentially, but it's within the
confines at the CBA and the expectations of

1014
01:08:23,279 --> 01:08:28,000
a CBA where you're not going to
see like just such stark deviations. I

1015
01:08:28,000 --> 01:08:31,600
don't really know how you move off
this path. It's it feels like a

1016
01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:35,720
natural progression, though, doesn't it
just because players are getting better at every

1017
01:08:35,720 --> 01:08:41,279
aspect of basketball. So now you
have players who are going to grow up

1018
01:08:41,279 --> 01:08:44,319
to be seven feet tall learning to
operate as a point guard at the high

1019
01:08:44,319 --> 01:08:47,079
school level, like Chet Holmgren right
now. You know, just guys like

1020
01:08:47,119 --> 01:08:53,039
that who are the evolutionary concept of
players who came before them. That's always

1021
01:08:53,079 --> 01:08:55,880
what's been happening. And you saw
it, you know, going from the

1022
01:08:55,920 --> 01:08:59,279
fifties into the sixties, where it
was a big deal that Bob Kuzy could

1023
01:09:00,079 --> 01:09:03,439
dribble sometimes with his left hand,
and then you take that to you know,

1024
01:09:03,520 --> 01:09:12,119
the dazzling, more flashy dribbling styles
as point guards evolved, and that

1025
01:09:12,279 --> 01:09:15,479
was groundbreaking, and then there was
no going back from that. And I

1026
01:09:15,560 --> 01:09:19,000
just don't think we're ever going back
from a from an era where size doesn't

1027
01:09:19,039 --> 01:09:24,359
predetermine the role that you fill in
the court so much as aids what you

1028
01:09:24,399 --> 01:09:29,079
can do. So I think that's
not going to change. I don't see

1029
01:09:29,079 --> 01:09:32,600
how that could change. There would
also be why would you because the concept

1030
01:09:32,600 --> 01:09:35,520
of that player is always going to
be this preconceived notion where it's I know

1031
01:09:35,560 --> 01:09:40,199
you're saying Luca Dantage wasn't supposed to
happen, but you draft Luca Dantage to

1032
01:09:40,239 --> 01:09:44,600
be just the center of your solar
system on you. I'm not saying he

1033
01:09:44,640 --> 01:09:46,760
wasn't supposed to happen once he was
selected and that wasn't the reason. He

1034
01:09:46,920 --> 01:09:53,199
just from a from a development standpoint, like an Era's passed that wasn't supposed

1035
01:09:53,239 --> 01:09:55,600
to happen. A player like that, Well, I'm just more so saying

1036
01:09:55,600 --> 01:10:00,960
even if you didn't expect him to
be this like central to because they are

1037
01:10:00,960 --> 01:10:09,159
all well they've tried path the good
MAVs teams and they're okay Luca, why

1038
01:10:09,199 --> 01:10:12,359
would you not try and find that
player would be Michel? There's no team.

1039
01:10:12,439 --> 01:10:15,880
This is basically dumping all over what
I said before is you're not necessarily

1040
01:10:15,920 --> 01:10:19,840
trying to build the twenty fourteen Spurs
the two thousand and four Pistons. A

1041
01:10:19,880 --> 01:10:25,000
lot of that stuff is almost I
don't want to say accidental, but it's

1042
01:10:25,039 --> 01:10:28,600
the two thousand and fourteen Spurs.
They found a way to maximize like the

1043
01:10:28,640 --> 01:10:31,319
post heydays of their stars, and
so they had reached a different point in

1044
01:10:31,319 --> 01:10:34,439
their development where they weren't trying to
build a team without a mega star.

1045
01:10:34,520 --> 01:10:39,960
That was the hand they've been dealt. And that model typically isn't sustainable because

1046
01:10:39,960 --> 01:10:44,239
you're not looking to sustain it.
And so I'm everything you said makes so

1047
01:10:44,319 --> 01:10:46,520
much sense. We're talking about this
is the natural progression. Why would you

1048
01:10:46,560 --> 01:10:50,000
ever try to build You're not going
to try and set out to build a

1049
01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:56,159
contender without that type of a player. That would be stupid. You back

1050
01:10:56,199 --> 01:10:59,039
your way into that because you have
no other options, right, and if

1051
01:10:59,079 --> 01:11:00,960
even if you do that, it's
not something that you're good. This isn't

1052
01:11:01,640 --> 01:11:05,439
we found we're looking for the next
Draymond Green because of what he's done over

1053
01:11:05,439 --> 01:11:09,560
the course of the career. No, that's not viewed as sustainable. So

1054
01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:12,439
I agree with what you said before. Where it does do like if it

1055
01:11:12,479 --> 01:11:17,399
were to change, it's because of
any material difference or alteration of the collective

1056
01:11:17,439 --> 01:11:21,039
bargaining agreement where if stars or even
more, you know, you talk about

1057
01:11:21,039 --> 01:11:24,800
super teams now, it would have
to be like a mega super team or

1058
01:11:24,840 --> 01:11:29,239
something to where those become more common
play and maybe not warriors or nets level

1059
01:11:29,600 --> 01:11:33,600
super teams, but like where I
think big threes become as common as people

1060
01:11:33,640 --> 01:11:36,880
actually thought they were at one point, because what was actually common was the

1061
01:11:36,920 --> 01:11:43,000
concept of chasing a big three,
not the actual big threes themselves. And

1062
01:11:43,039 --> 01:11:45,760
so I think you hit the nail. That was me basically my long winded

1063
01:11:45,800 --> 01:11:48,319
way, it's I think everything you
said was spectacular. I appreciate that every

1064
01:11:48,319 --> 01:11:50,760
once in a while you tell me
that, and I just feel like I

1065
01:11:50,760 --> 01:11:55,840
got lucky. This was fun.
We have questions left on the board,

1066
01:11:55,840 --> 01:11:58,680
but this went long enough, and
I think the philosophical questions where hopefully people

1067
01:11:58,680 --> 01:12:02,600
will enjoy our takes on those.
Thank you everyone's Adam said, ask him

1068
01:12:02,600 --> 01:12:05,439
to it, and we went and
we didn't stop the podcast immediately because the

1069
01:12:05,479 --> 01:12:08,880
rule is normally I just shut it
off whatever he says, ask him to

1070
01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:11,800
it. That's the rule in life
too. I stop talking, I hang

1071
01:12:11,840 --> 01:12:14,199
up on the phone. If we're
in person, I walk away in case

1072
01:12:14,239 --> 01:12:16,560
anyone's wondering. But if you have
questions, you can always DM either of

1073
01:12:16,680 --> 01:12:19,960
us at Framoz or nine at dan
FA Valley FA V A L E.

1074
01:12:20,399 --> 01:12:25,119
Find us at Hardwood Knox at Hardwooknox. You can email us too, Hardwooknox

1075
01:12:25,159 --> 01:12:28,520
at gmail dot com if you have
questions. Subscribe to our YouTube channel YouTube

1076
01:12:28,520 --> 01:12:32,439
dot com Hardwood Knox. We're on
Instagram at Hardwood Underscore Knox. Follow all

1077
01:12:32,600 --> 01:12:39,960
the sports math networks. We are
an inclusive stats network where Adam sends out

1078
01:12:40,039 --> 01:12:43,600
charts, but he's also willing to
respond and interact with users and explain the

1079
01:12:43,600 --> 01:12:49,119
methodology and the flaws and the strength
at the underscore sports Underscore Math Hockey,

1080
01:12:49,359 --> 01:12:55,079
Football, Baseball, and of course
the vaunted, the legendary NBA Math.

1081
01:12:55,760 --> 01:12:58,680
Until next time, leave you to
shout out to the one, the only,

1082
01:12:58,800 --> 01:13:00,279
the player that I can't believe we
did bring up when talking about people

1083
01:13:00,279 --> 01:13:04,479
who are underappreciated because they have flaws
and yet they're still so fucking good.

1084
01:13:05,159 --> 01:13:06,039
Frank Neil Akina