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Hello, and welcome to Open Minds
Radio. This is your host Alejandro Rojas,

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and I am here with Martin rolland
Stone Willis. You are on the

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road, correct, I am.
I am currently right out front of the

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USDA in Albany, New York.
I have to get my dog stamped for

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international travel. Oh really, that's
like I thought, that's like meat packing

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and stuff. Though you're not going
to like sell your dog for food in

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Russia. Is at a delicacy out
there or something? I didn't say he

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was alive. Oh no, he's
quite alive. We actually have to get

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paper stamped, and so when we're
ready to go tomorrow, paper stamped here.

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Okay, and that's it. It's
a long process. Not easy to

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travel with a dog. But I
am inseparable from my little uh chihuaha.

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How funny, I understand. Yeah, he's one of these. He doesn't

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shake, he doesn't bark like people
always complain. He's very loyal and he

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attacks on command. So it's it's
perfect. He's a perfect dog. Good

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little attacker, little ankle attacker on
the met Hey, nobody wants their ankles

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bitten off, so it works just
as good as anything else. The Graves

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yeah, hah. I can understand
because I had a little chihuaha that I

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love to death. But I guess
before we move on, because you don't

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have much time. So I do
want to tell people who the guests will

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be once you hang up on me. That's going to be Ron Felber.

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He's an author and he usually authors
fiction books, thrillers and the such.

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He comes from a corporate background.
However, he says twenty years ago or

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so, he met this couple who
he says is credible, who told him

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that they were abducted by aliens.
So he was open to listening to them,

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and he says he believes their story
and he spent a lot of time.

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He's had it researched, and so
he wrote a book on their story

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called The Mojave Incident, inspired by
a chilling story of alien abduction. And

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we interviewed him about that. So
we'll have that coming up after Martin and

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I talk about the news. Well, hey, Ron's going to be on

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my show as well. October seven, yep, October seventh. I believe

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it is okay, Wow, how
funny? Yeah yep, So yeah,

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I was really looking forward to talking
to him. Now I'll have to listen

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to the show to make sure I
don't ask him the same questions you ask

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me. Yeah, so pretty interesting, Steph. So we'll talk to him

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in just a minute. But before
we do that, let's go ahead and

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get into the news. So do
you have a news story? I do?

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You know. One of the things
I liked when I was reading through

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the stories on Open Minds is it's
about an old case that happened in nineteen

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ninety four. And like you had
mentioned a while back, it seems like

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a lot of these old cases are
coming forward. People are coming forward to

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tell him. I might have to
do with you know, the UFO shows

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on TV and you know Hanger One
with you know Mofon. So this is

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a Moufon reporter case recently happened back
in nineteen ninety four, and it was

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a Virginia witness and they talk about
I really liked this story because they talked

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in detail about this UFO that hovered
over a house. So the witness recalled

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that back in I think it was
September of nineteen ninety four, he or

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she was returning to work and noticed
what looked like a huge star moving across

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the horizon. In the distance,
and the person followed this thing, got

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in the car and drove about a
mile away, when here she came upon

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this encounter and it was only about
one hundred or so feet away, and

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it was beaming a light down on
top of a house, and it was

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completely quiet, completely silent. And
so what really was interesting about this is

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it had a huge red light in
the center of the bottom and then it

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was covered with white lights. And
they drew a picture of it and submitted

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it so on your site you can
see what it looked like. And the

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thing that really was interesting about this
is she noticed that he or she noticed.

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I have a feeling it was a
woman, but I have no idea

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why. They noticed that a car
was in a school parking lot and it

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left and the UFO followed it.
So they drove behind an up over hill

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to see what was happening in both
the car and the UFO were nowhere to

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be seen. Great story, Yeah, really weird step. And yeah,

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these are those ones that are just
so strange. And the image is kind

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of cool because they use like a
photoshop or something it looks like to create

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the image, so it gives you
a better effect. But yeah, that

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is a really weird case. It's
an interesting one, and these are hard

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and some people are like, oh, you know, there's no pictures or

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video, we just have to take
them by their word. But you know

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what, even with pictures and videos, typically you can't make heads or tail

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of them, so you have to
use the anecdotal information anyway. So anecdotal

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information, it's kind of all we
have to go on. And these are

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one of those things where you're like, did it happen? Did it not?

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You know what the heck? I
mean, there's so much detail you

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wouldn't think someone would go through the
effort of, you know, making up

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this such an odd story just to
post it. Not only that, it's

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when someone remains anonymous and they go
through this type of detail, you know

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what would they benefit? Yeah,
so I think it's a great story.

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Yeah, really interesting one. All
right. So I wanted to talk to

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you, not that it's fun that
tap crap, and I don't mean to

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throw too many jabs at some of
these places out there, but this is

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just one of those things. So
there's this video of a rush UFO out

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and you know we've talked about we
talk about how the tabloids have picked up

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UFO stories so much in the UK, but it started to get annoying lately

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because they're picking up these videos on
these hoaxed on these YouTube sites that create

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hoaxed UFO videos all the time.
Right. So there's a guy, uh,

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the director of investigations here, Dennis
Firemouth here in Arizona. He's great.

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He actually, unfortunately, you know, discovered the hey mundane nature of

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a Tucson siting out here, and
we posted that story not too long ago.

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Lispiegel actually wrote about it. But
he also did this video because there

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was a hoax video. Secure Team
ten h you know, put out this

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video. They have lots of hoax
videos and they put this one where this

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cube comes out of this you know, cloud type of thing. And so

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Dennis had shown me how he he
made something very similar in ten minutes,

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and he gave me this video and
it's great, and I've been waiting for

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the right chance to use it.
So when this Russian thing came along,

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you know, I just kind of
was getting all over the place, so

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I decided to look into it.
It took me ten minutes to figure out

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the background. I mean, my
concern here is that most of these alleged

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fantastic videos, there's no witness testimony. Like on our stories. When we

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write stories about UFO sidings, we
post the YouTube link. You know,

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when you're looking at the YouTube video, it's from their YouTube channel. We're

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not you know, stealing it and
reposting it, which is what happened in

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the case I'm about to mention,
or we're not just fabricating it. With

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these hoaxed ones, you usually they
don't have any history to them at all,

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and you don't know who the witness
is and you can't trace them.

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So I decided to trace this video
of the Russian uf Sure enough, it

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turns out it was actually posted a
year ago, coincidentally, a year ago

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from the date that I decided to
write the story, September ninth, which

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is so weird. And it was
from Poland. So these guys saw these

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lights over the bay out there in
Poland, and there were actually a couple

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videos that were taken. I think
they're most likely military flares, but who

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know. Some people have said they
disagree with that. You can go to

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the videos. They are, you
know, interesting videos. Apparently the videos

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were them then downloaded and posted by
a bunch of these, you know,

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dubious UFO YouTube places. One of
them posted it recently and they said it

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was Russian. Unfortunately, then one
of the popular UFO sites out there that

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the UK loves to follow posted it
with all of this wrong information, and

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and then the daily what is the
Mirror Online posted the story with all the

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completely wrong information without doing the research
to find out where it really came from.

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It's just frustrating that, you know, they don't do their due diligence

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and we've talked about this before and
they post just completely false information as if

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it's the truth. And it's just
very frustrating. How did you figure that

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out? I mean, if you
you only had a video to go on,

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right, I mean, how did
you figure out that it was the

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one in Poland? Well, you
know, I figured there can't be too

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many Polish UFO videos, so well, Russian actually is at first what I

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did, and so I googled Russian
UFOs videos, looked through the videos until

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you know, I found the same
one, and I just kept searching.

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Then I found Uh, Luckily,
I guess this is what helped the person

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who originally posted the video put in
his comments it could be the Russian military.

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So that's why this came up,
was under it with the tag word

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Russian because actually it's a Polish video. So and it actually came up because

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it was posted by one of the
very popular hoaxing UFO youtubes out there,

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and they at least had more information
about its origins. So I was able

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to use that information to do more
searching to find the original videos from the

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original posters. And that's what I
have in my story is links to the

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originals so people can see the difference
and get the background. Because I also

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think it's fair, you know,
to give the original person the hits they

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deserve. That's why I don't like
to a lot of people will ask can

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I download your video and put it
on my YouTube, because then I'm making

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it more popular and I'm making money
off of your video. I would rather

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embed the original person's video, so
first they get credit for it because it's

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their video. And second, so
you know, people can go to the

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source find out more about the origins
of the video, so they can question

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the you know, the person who
posted the video in the first place,

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and do their own research and investigation. So it's funny enough Mirror Online.

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Lise Biegel, I don't know if
you saw this, wrote a story recently

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about how the Mirror Online wrote about
edgar Mitchell saying that aliens are stopping nukes

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from happening, and Lise Biegel asked
gar Mitchell about it. He said,

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he never told the Mirror that and
they just completely made up the interview.

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Oh, I had no idea that
story was everywhere. Yeah, it was

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everywhere. And now Mitchell says,
yeah, they made it up. Wow,

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isn't that wild. Aren't there like
libel lawsuits for stuff like this.

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I don't know they did. Li
said they did reach out to the Mirror

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and they didn't want to comment.
Lee was expecting the Mirror to re butt,

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you know, the story, because
if they really did, because they

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said, we got this at these
quotes from an interview. But instead of

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saying, look, here's our quotes
from the interviewer, here's proof we did

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the interview, they've said nothing.
So perhaps, you know, the interview

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never did happen. Who knows.
It seems like the someone did some research

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and the time that they claimed they
did the interview was the same time that

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Jim was holding his Roswell Slides event, and it was actually the same day

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that Edgar Mitchell had a pre recorded
interview that was shown there at the Roswell's

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Slides event. So yeah, well, I don't know what's going on with

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this world. In fact, I'm
like, I don't post their links because

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you know how I do the daily
headlines. I'm not posting these these links

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at the u K. Tabloids are
posting these dubious videos anymore. I mean,

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if it's something original, I love
the stories where they have a you

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know, citizen there in the UK
who says, look at my weird pictures

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or videos, because that's great.
Those are just regular people reporting stuff.

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But even though often they turn out
to be birds or something mundane, but

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not always, and it's better than
I think. You know, they're just

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seeking the sensationalism of posting these dubious
videos. What can you do? What

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can you do? Beious? You
know, I'm gonna this is the first

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time. I'm gonna have to cut
this short because I have appointment. I

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got to get my dogs now,
no problem, all right, all right,

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glad to have you for a little
while. You have a safe trip,

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and hopefully we'll hear from you.
Soon, right, Yes, hopefully

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we can connect next Monday. It'll
be late in the afternoon for me in

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Russia while you're just getting up.
Perfect. Hopefully we can make it work.

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All right, Thank you very much, sir. You have a great

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trip, wonderful, be safe.
All right, thanks a lot. So

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yeah, all right, now that
Martin is gone, I am going to

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talk some mad smack about him.
Oh you're not God yet. All right.

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Well now our good buddy Martin is
gone for real, so now we

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can really talk some smack just kidding. Let's go ahead and get into our

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interview with Ron Felber. I am
very excited to have author Ron Felber with

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me. Hello, Ron, how
are you doing? Air Alejandra God hear

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your voice. Thank you. Yeah. It's always exciting when people who you

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know normally aren't the regular people who
are out there writing books on this topic

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kind of find something, especially people
who are seasoned authors such as yourself,

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find something that inspires them to get
into this and so maybe you can tell

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people a little bit about the name
of your book and what it's about.

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Well, it's called the Mohave Incident. Mojave Incident is available Amazon, and

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you know, bones and noble and
the rest. And the way I got

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into it was a little bit odd
because I was a businessman for quite some

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time and I ran a company,
a fairly large one, and we had

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to take about one hundred salespeople nationwide. And one of them was a good

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friend of mine on the West Coast, and you know, we were friends,

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so we talked like friends and over
dinner one time. Knowing that I

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was a writer, he had a
best friend who he played football with.

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As a matter of fact, this
fellow was an All state football player from

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a college in California, and they
played football together. So he told me

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about an experience they had had,
this incredible story with UFOs and alien abduction.

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And at the time I was writing
thrillers and I still write thrillers,

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the Jack Madisons series, et cetera, things of that nature. So I

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said, well, you know,
yeah, this whole UFO thing, elien

207
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abductions. I'm sure your friends are
great people, but you know, it's

208
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just not something I already have an
interest in spending a lot of time writing

209
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about. So he was very compelling
and he said, look, they don't

210
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want to tell the story. They
went to their folks with it, their

211
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parents with it. And while their
parents were understanding and helpful, you know,

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they loved them, et cetera,
they they were skeptical and they really

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were very smitten. The two individuals, the Gifferts, this would be Tom

214
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and Elise Giffert about that. So
he put us together and reluctantly we met.

215
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But I found a story so incredibly
compelling and them so credible that I

216
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said to myself, this is a
story that needs to be told, because

217
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I don't think there's another one like
it period. And about how long ago

218
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was that? Well, the event
actually happened in October ten, eighty nine,

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but they continued well after that in
terms of just this feeling of being

220
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washed, and some watched in some
episodes that happened with their children, et

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cetera. And when was that you
your friend approached you and you began speaking

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with the difference that would have been
in the early nineteen nineties, like nineteen

223
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nineteen ninety one. But what I
did was researched very thoroughly. We taped

224
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at long sessions where we taped each
of their accounts great detail, vivid detail

225
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about the craft about the aliens that
they encountered, et cetera. And then

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I had them brought to the National
Center of Psychiatry. I'd gone to Georgetown

227
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University, that's where I got my
degree, and a friend of mine was

228
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director of psychiatry at the National Center
of Psychiatry in Washington. So we took

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our first to get an evaluation,
and doctor Bernard Patone said, you know,

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this is the most unusual case I've
ever encountered. I believe what they're

231
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saying is true. They have no
neurosis, they have no psychosis, There's

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not anything except this. They are
suffering from the symptoms that a pow,

233
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a prisoner of war might suffer from
sexual dysfunction, insomnia, an inability to

234
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engage in day to day life anymore. So that was telling. Then I

235
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brought them to get retrogressed by that
FBI hypnotist in Ashville, South Carolina,

236
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and that would be doctor William Anister, who again was absolutely stunned and said

237
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he had never encountered anything like it, and believe it. And we believed

238
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that this was absolutely true when you
look at the various possibilities and other explanations

239
00:19:52.759 --> 00:19:56.680
that the one that they had and
the one that we had was the correct

240
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one, which was that they were
abducted by aliens. So this book has

241
00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:03.039
been a long time in the making. You've been talking with this couple for

242
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around twenty years now. Well,
I mean, I think I put this

243
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aside. Again, we had them
taken for polygraph tests. I mean,

244
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it was a fairly extensive proposition in
terms of research. I went to the

245
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actual site myself, so you know, I had at the time, I

246
00:20:19.880 --> 00:20:22.960
was running a company, and it
was something that I did when I could

247
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do it. But I kept copious
notes and taped everything I could, videotape

248
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the hypnotic sessions, so that what
you have here is an extremely well researched

249
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and well documented account that's really singular, and it's unique and in its scope.

250
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What had you thought of prior to
your friend approaching you. What had

251
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you thought, if anything, about
the whole UFO phenomenon. Well, I

252
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mean, like everybody else, I
mean, I think everybody wants to know,

253
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somewhere in the back of their mind, what is life all about?

254
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What is existence all about? Is
there something we all part of some larger

255
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plan? And some people, you
know, become religious, people become spiritual,

256
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and some people reject the whole notion
entirely. I guess that I would

257
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be one of these people that would
say I'm modestly religious, modestly spiritual.

258
00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:26.519
I guess, if anything, I
was a cop trends who transported federal prisoners

259
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for a living, then became a
corporate executive and CEO. So, if

260
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anything, I guess I'd be more
of a skeptic than, you know,

261
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than anything else. And I mean
it's one thing to be open to the

262
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UFO phenomena, and then it's something
else to kind of be open to alien

263
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abduction, which a lot of people, less people are open to the idea.

264
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Had you really been familiar with that
concept even before you had heard from

265
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your friend, Yeah, I mean
I was familiar with it like most people

266
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in a general way because it's it's
out there, you know, in the

267
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in the public arena, but it's
generally out there as a kind of entertainment.

268
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So I didn't I didn't really look
at it as anything, you know,

269
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very serious. I mean, I've
had a casual interest like most people

270
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probably would. But this is something
really different because if you knew these people

271
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and got to know them and met
them, this is a fellow who's a

272
00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:37.039
career oriented guy. I mean he's
running a project for a large construction company

273
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that built malls and built shopping centers
and things. So I mean he's dealing

274
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with lots of employees, directing lots
of employees, dealing with a lot of

275
00:22:45.960 --> 00:22:51.039
you know, money and deadlines and
things. His wife was a sort of

276
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college graduate all state football player.
The wife is a mother of two with

277
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a third third child that you expecting
at that time. So you really couldn't

278
00:23:03.160 --> 00:23:07.759
ask for more stable people. I
mean, very classic, upwardly mobile,

279
00:23:08.039 --> 00:23:15.519
college educated, career oriented. The
last thing in the world people like that

280
00:23:15.960 --> 00:23:21.039
want is something that takes them off
the track that they've been almost bred to

281
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be on. It derails everything,
everything that they thought mattered in life.

282
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So when you first met them,
what was your mindset like? Were you

283
00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:38.680
really skeptical or had your friend convinced
you that at that point where you really

284
00:23:38.759 --> 00:23:44.000
open to it when you first met
that, Well, my friend is like

285
00:23:44.079 --> 00:23:48.640
again, a very one of the
more stable guys I know, hard working.

286
00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:55.559
By the way, now it works
for Oracle and executive up an Oracle.

287
00:23:55.720 --> 00:24:02.039
So this is no lightweight. It
is a more than stable I would

288
00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:03.880
say, you know, one of
the backbone of the country kind of guys.

289
00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:11.079
Success, highly successful, nice family, all all of those things.

290
00:24:11.640 --> 00:24:14.480
So if he tells you this is
my best friend, if he tells you

291
00:24:14.680 --> 00:24:19.079
we played football together in college,
and believe me, this guy has you

292
00:24:19.119 --> 00:24:22.359
know, he's telling the truth.
He has no reason in the world he

293
00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:26.160
doesn't want to tell people. He
confide it in me. You've got to

294
00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:30.000
say, well, obviously something happened
to these people. What was it?

295
00:24:32.640 --> 00:24:36.279
So what was that first meeting?
Like, did you go to their house

296
00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:38.559
and your friend was like, hey, tell them about your alien thing?

297
00:24:40.799 --> 00:24:44.839
Well, I mean it was That's
pretty funny because I didn't just you know,

298
00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:48.519
go there for a couple of hours
or something. I've spent a couple

299
00:24:48.559 --> 00:24:52.200
of days there, and you know, we started with a dinner to sort

300
00:24:52.200 --> 00:24:56.079
of break the ice and warm things
up. And I think they probably were

301
00:24:56.400 --> 00:25:00.000
as skeptical of me as I was
of them, And you know, I

302
00:25:00.039 --> 00:25:06.200
think they trusted me, and I
believe them. And what I came from

303
00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:11.440
on this was I don't know what
happened to you, but something incredible happened

304
00:25:11.480 --> 00:25:15.880
to you, And no matter where
it leads, it's a hell of a

305
00:25:15.960 --> 00:25:26.039
story. Now in the book is
the story, it says based on or

306
00:25:26.119 --> 00:25:33.200
inspired by. So is the book
fictionalized version of their events of what happened?

307
00:25:34.200 --> 00:25:37.359
No, actually almost. I won't
say all of it, but I

308
00:25:37.400 --> 00:25:42.559
would say eighty percent of it has
come from transcripts and tapes directly written.

309
00:25:44.440 --> 00:25:47.880
Some of the chronology has changed around
just because you know, if you've ever

310
00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:53.240
written a story, sometimes sometimes the
chronology you have to change a little bit

311
00:25:53.480 --> 00:25:59.279
or or it gets very complicated.
So things like that, I changed the

312
00:25:59.359 --> 00:26:04.160
names of the principles, Tom and
Elise Gifford, those are pseudonyms, and

313
00:26:04.200 --> 00:26:08.160
I changed the names of their children, you know, for privacy reasons.

314
00:26:08.920 --> 00:26:14.480
Other than that, it's a true
story. It's a true story, straightforward.

315
00:26:15.400 --> 00:26:21.279
So what did they tell you?
How did their events, these strangeness

316
00:26:21.359 --> 00:26:26.400
start for them? This is again
what makes us so credible is but I

317
00:26:26.440 --> 00:26:30.960
think everybody can imagine themselves doing exactly
what they did pretty much. So here's

318
00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:37.599
a couple that you know, have
two children, two young children. Let's

319
00:26:37.599 --> 00:26:41.480
say one five I believe in the
other maybe you know one and a half.

320
00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:45.160
So the mother, the mother you
know, wants wants to get out

321
00:26:45.160 --> 00:26:49.119
of the house and uh, you
know, have a good time. She's

322
00:26:49.119 --> 00:26:52.720
sort of been stuck with children and
just wants to be around adults and have

323
00:26:52.799 --> 00:27:00.759
some fun. The husband is an
avid hunter and a year before before he

324
00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:03.960
had missed a mule deer. A
shot at a mule deer, and his

325
00:27:03.960 --> 00:27:07.960
father and his brother gave him quite
a hard time about it, and being

326
00:27:07.960 --> 00:27:11.119
the competitive guy that he was,
he wanted to go back out into the

327
00:27:11.160 --> 00:27:18.079
Mahabi and track that mule deer and
bag it. So they had two conflicting

328
00:27:18.119 --> 00:27:26.480
sort of goals here. What they
decided to do was compromise. So the

329
00:27:26.319 --> 00:27:30.559
husband Tom told his wife all these
look, let's go to a place called

330
00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:36.200
Whiskey Pete where they had been.
There's live music, you know, great

331
00:27:36.279 --> 00:27:38.920
bands. We'll have a couple of
drinks, we'll dance, we'll have a

332
00:27:38.920 --> 00:27:45.559
good time. We'll take our camper
and then we'll go and we'll do my

333
00:27:45.680 --> 00:27:49.319
hunting and you know, you can
do some mountain climbing, you can,

334
00:27:49.519 --> 00:27:53.960
you know, scope things out while
I hunt, and we'll both do what

335
00:27:55.000 --> 00:28:00.279
we want to do. So they
did go to Whiskey Pete and they were

336
00:28:00.279 --> 00:28:03.279
going to camp at a place called
mid Hills Campsite. But when they got

337
00:28:03.319 --> 00:28:10.480
there, unusual for the time,
all of the sites were taken, so

338
00:28:10.839 --> 00:28:15.160
they were sort of stuck. So
Tom, who was very familiar with the

339
00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:19.200
desert, said, look, it's
dark, it's off road, it's kind

340
00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:22.400
of desolate, but I know this
area like the back of my hand.

341
00:28:22.440 --> 00:28:26.319
I've been hunting there with my father
and brother for years. So let's go

342
00:28:27.039 --> 00:28:32.960
and you know, we'll cook up
some steaks and you know, there's some

343
00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:37.799
stargazing and have a romantic evening and
then I'll do my honting and we leave.

344
00:28:38.200 --> 00:28:42.240
We leave the next day. So
that was the plan. But when

345
00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:48.960
they're roasting their marshmallows, after they
have their steak, they're stargazing, and

346
00:28:49.079 --> 00:28:55.039
of course then the desert it's,
you know, brilliantly cleared, and they

347
00:28:55.039 --> 00:28:57.680
see these particularly shiny stores. For
Tom, who was sort of an expert

348
00:28:57.720 --> 00:29:03.839
on configurations and whatnot, is identifying
this configuration of stars in that and Eliza's

349
00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:07.880
wife said, well what about these
what is that one? And what started

350
00:29:07.880 --> 00:29:14.240
to happen is these bright shiny orbs
in the horizon form a configuration of an

351
00:29:14.400 --> 00:29:19.359
M, a giant M. And
Tom is a little bit stunned at that

352
00:29:19.599 --> 00:29:25.880
because obviously it's no configuration of stars. So they start to guess what it

353
00:29:25.960 --> 00:29:29.200
might be, And of course they
guess that maybe it's some sort of military

354
00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:33.519
exercise. Maybe these are some kind
of craft that are up there, because

355
00:29:33.559 --> 00:29:38.319
they're starting to communicate with one another, they're blinking in something that looks like

356
00:29:38.400 --> 00:29:44.680
code. Then maybe I can actually
read a quote to you. Sure,

357
00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:49.480
it's just from Tom Gifford when we
first saw them dropping, because these things

358
00:29:49.480 --> 00:29:53.519
then start to drop from the sky. When we first saw them dropping from

359
00:29:53.559 --> 00:29:56.640
the sky, we thought it was
some kind of military maneuver, maybe for

360
00:29:56.720 --> 00:30:02.799
Operation Desert Storm. But it was
too massive even for that. I mean,

361
00:30:03.200 --> 00:30:07.079
there were hundreds of them folding then
rushing toward us. So I kicked

362
00:30:07.079 --> 00:30:11.799
out the campfire, grabbed my gun, and ran into the back of the

363
00:30:11.839 --> 00:30:15.720
camper with the leaves. There we
sat Indian style, waiting until they came.

364
00:30:17.440 --> 00:30:21.720
Hundreds of them, hundreds of pairs
of tiny red eyes glowing in the

365
00:30:21.799 --> 00:30:29.160
dark around us. Wow, harrowing. Yeah, that's pretty terrifying. Now.

366
00:30:29.279 --> 00:30:33.200
And about what year this was?
In the late eighties, then this

367
00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:38.920
would have been October eighty nine,
And so what did they remember next?

368
00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:45.160
Well, I'll tell you that probably
the best place to go is to is

369
00:30:45.240 --> 00:30:47.480
to the book itself, because I
have, you know, some quotes that

370
00:30:47.519 --> 00:30:52.160
we can go to. But basically
what happens is there's actually different kinds of

371
00:30:52.319 --> 00:30:59.880
beings that they encounter, and the
first kind of a maltlin. They're small,

372
00:31:00.640 --> 00:31:04.480
they're sort of raucous, and these
are the red eyed sort of creatures.

373
00:31:06.599 --> 00:31:12.400
But then they're surrounded by these illuminated
figures and there's some really very vivid

374
00:31:12.440 --> 00:31:21.119
descriptions of those beings. And what
happens then is a huge craft hovers over

375
00:31:21.200 --> 00:31:22.920
them. And when I say huge, I mean the size of a football

376
00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:32.720
field. And while that's happening and
these illuminated figures are circling them, Tom

377
00:31:32.799 --> 00:31:36.960
tries to leave. He tries to
go for his gun, but they're jolted

378
00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:41.440
by electric shocks when they moved forward
and try to escape, so literally they're

379
00:31:41.440 --> 00:31:47.920
held captive there. And then they
go through something that could only be I

380
00:31:47.920 --> 00:31:52.720
guess classified it as a kind of
torture. You So, but these things

381
00:31:52.720 --> 00:31:56.119
were outside of the camper, that's
right. As a matter of fact,

382
00:31:56.119 --> 00:32:00.759
they pulled the curtain shut, but
they were shining like white light, and

383
00:32:00.799 --> 00:32:05.799
so it didn't matter if the curtains
were shut at first. When these things

384
00:32:05.799 --> 00:32:08.880
started falling. They thought the Russians
were invading. They thought it was like

385
00:32:08.920 --> 00:32:17.599
a world war or something. Wow, and so there and then he tried

386
00:32:17.640 --> 00:32:22.759
to open and go outside of the
campra when he was shocked. Yeah,

387
00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:25.720
Actually what happened was there were these
two sort of I don't know what to

388
00:32:25.720 --> 00:32:31.920
say, monitors, let's call them, and sort of like holographs, holograms.

389
00:32:32.319 --> 00:32:37.440
And so when they moved forward afoot, the holograms would move forward,

390
00:32:37.559 --> 00:32:43.079
and they were electrified, so if
they moved too close they would get jolted.

391
00:32:43.519 --> 00:32:45.799
And they realized they were just trapped. There. I have a little

392
00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:52.440
section here. The sky above them, Their entire nighttime sky was now filled

393
00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:57.839
with hundreds of shiny objects, flashing
signals to one another. Together, they

394
00:32:57.839 --> 00:33:00.880
sat, holding each other two fight
and to move too, frightened, until

395
00:33:00.920 --> 00:33:07.839
it began slowly at first, like
parachutes, floating free falling downward gracefully.

396
00:33:07.559 --> 00:33:13.200
So they stared, captivated by the
prospects as dozens, no hundreds, of

397
00:33:13.240 --> 00:33:22.400
the glowing white objects traveled like falling
stars across the sky. Oh my god,

398
00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:27.039
sc screamed the leaves. It's the
Russians. The Russians are invading.

399
00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:32.480
No Tom comforted, scrambling to his
feet. It can't be get in the

400
00:33:32.519 --> 00:33:39.079
truck. I'll put out the fire
and they won't see us. Alize hesitated,

401
00:33:39.400 --> 00:33:44.200
He shoved her get in the truck. The lights were landing now,

402
00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:49.680
he observed landing all over the valley. The lights were landing. His frantic

403
00:33:49.720 --> 00:33:55.119
mind processed and coming towards them with
the to me, Tom grabbed a lad

404
00:33:55.319 --> 00:33:59.640
who just sat there staring, and
jerked her to her feet. They're coming

405
00:33:59.680 --> 00:34:04.039
to get us, she muttered,
entranced. There's no road, no roads

406
00:34:04.079 --> 00:34:07.119
out there. Tom said, as
much to himself as to her. But

407
00:34:07.240 --> 00:34:10.719
they're still coming at us. He
looked to his wife, who had lapsed

408
00:34:10.760 --> 00:34:15.199
into a state of shock, then
took her by the hand as he raced

409
00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:19.360
around to the truck's cab, grabbing
his twelve gage ethic, a shotgun,

410
00:34:19.719 --> 00:34:23.559
seven milimeters Browning rifle, and a
hunting vest looped with dozens of rounds of

411
00:34:23.639 --> 00:34:29.960
AMMA. At the end of the
at the end of this telepathically, they're

412
00:34:30.079 --> 00:34:34.039
just told get in the truck.
If you try to fight us, we'll

413
00:34:34.119 --> 00:34:39.440
kill you. Did he ever try
to fire any of his guns? No,

414
00:34:40.079 --> 00:34:44.159
he couldn't, as you know,
as it happened. They just both

415
00:34:44.199 --> 00:34:49.039
became kind of entranced and wound up
in the back of the camper. When

416
00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:53.199
you say they were tortured, where
did they feel that then they were taken

417
00:34:53.239 --> 00:34:58.039
on board the craft or did this
torture happen while they were in the truck?

418
00:34:58.079 --> 00:35:00.679
Did it all kind of take place
at end? Well. One of

419
00:35:00.679 --> 00:35:04.559
the things that makes this so unique, I believe, is that I don't

420
00:35:04.599 --> 00:35:09.960
know of anything where for an extended
eight hours, eight conscious hours, two

421
00:35:09.960 --> 00:35:19.079
individuals are looking at each other,
describing spacecrafts, describing the aliens themselves,

422
00:35:19.440 --> 00:35:23.440
the different kinds of aliens, pinching
themselves. Do you see this? Yes,

423
00:35:23.519 --> 00:35:28.239
I see it? What do you
see now? Comparing notes moment to

424
00:35:28.320 --> 00:35:30.639
moment, they thought they were going
to have heart attacks, and when they

425
00:35:30.639 --> 00:35:36.679
got to the verge of a feeling
like they were going to have a heart

426
00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:40.440
attack, a kind of mist filled
the truck and calmed them like a kind

427
00:35:40.440 --> 00:35:47.000
of anesthesia. This is what a
Leeds Giffert says. They wanted everything.

428
00:35:47.079 --> 00:35:52.480
We had everything, our minds,
our bodies, even our souls. I

429
00:35:52.519 --> 00:35:55.400
think it was like they drew it
out of us with a syringe, every

430
00:35:55.480 --> 00:36:00.679
molecule and it was painful, and
I thought we were going to die or

431
00:36:00.960 --> 00:36:07.039
had already died and were being tortured
in hell. Yeah, strange because it

432
00:36:07.320 --> 00:36:13.679
seems like kind of a non physical
kind of torture in some ways. Well,

433
00:36:13.719 --> 00:36:20.239
actually it was both. What happened
was they were made to relive experiences.

434
00:36:22.119 --> 00:36:24.360
For example, I don't want to
get into this too mile, but

435
00:36:24.400 --> 00:36:29.719
there was a molestation of one of
the principal characters when she was a child,

436
00:36:30.199 --> 00:36:35.559
and made to relive that moments of
exaltation, moments of horror, moments

437
00:36:35.559 --> 00:36:42.320
of everything like they were really living
it. And the purpose, it seemed,

438
00:36:42.400 --> 00:36:47.880
was to see what the reactions would
be emotionally, to pull from them

439
00:36:49.280 --> 00:36:57.440
an understanding of how human emotions work. And so when at they were taken

440
00:36:57.480 --> 00:37:01.800
to the craft, how did that
happen? Yeah, that's really one of

441
00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:06.639
the more fascinating things. Maybe I
can read you a little bit about the

442
00:37:06.679 --> 00:37:09.440
craft itself or something like that,
right, Yeah. The craft was larger

443
00:37:09.480 --> 00:37:15.360
than anything they ever imagined, could
fly more than a football field in diameter

444
00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:19.800
and shaped like a disc with an
elevated dome that rose up from its center.

445
00:37:20.320 --> 00:37:23.559
It was encircled by brilliant white lights
flashing in what appeared to be coordinated,

446
00:37:23.639 --> 00:37:29.840
coated rhythms. Together, they watched
in awe stunned as the huge craft

447
00:37:29.960 --> 00:37:32.760
shot a probe perhaps two hundred feet
in diameter, down to the ground,

448
00:37:34.079 --> 00:37:38.760
then began transporting objects both into and
out of the spacecraft. From the discs

449
00:37:38.840 --> 00:37:45.840
underbelly hung six smaller units, the
size of helicopters and designed like miniature versions

450
00:37:45.880 --> 00:37:50.840
of the mother craft that suddenly became
visible. All of this happening right before

451
00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:54.079
their eyes, and it was overwhelming. Do you see it too, Tom

452
00:37:54.159 --> 00:38:00.519
asked, yes, the big ship
with six others suspended from it, her

453
00:38:00.559 --> 00:38:04.760
mouth buried in the flesh of his
shoulder, the tunnel of light beaming objects

454
00:38:04.840 --> 00:38:08.119
up and down again, she nodded, named the objects. They're patterns of

455
00:38:08.159 --> 00:38:14.039
things more than actual physical objects,
things like plants and cattle, cactus and

456
00:38:14.079 --> 00:38:17.599
trees, anything else. She paused
long enough to observe a pattern of red,

457
00:38:17.679 --> 00:38:22.400
amber and white lights in the form
of a triangle, emanating from the

458
00:38:22.440 --> 00:38:27.960
ship, then breaking loose from it, moving carefully methodically across the desert basin.

459
00:38:28.360 --> 00:38:30.800
She nodded, Yes, there's a
triangle of lights, with the tip

460
00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:35.400
of the triangle touching down on the
ground. It seems to be combing the

461
00:38:35.440 --> 00:38:38.239
ground beneath the disc, as if
searching for something. She shook her head

462
00:38:38.239 --> 00:38:43.079
to clear it. Do you hear
the rumbling deep inside the ground, the

463
00:38:43.119 --> 00:38:49.480
triangles like a drill, a huge
drill of some kind. Strange? Huh

464
00:38:50.280 --> 00:38:55.199
mm hmm. So yeah, it's
really strange, to say the least.

465
00:38:55.320 --> 00:39:00.679
Uh yeah. So, and this
is all stuff that they remembered consciously,

466
00:39:01.239 --> 00:39:09.159
that's correct. So when you did
that hypnosis, was that too? Were

467
00:39:09.199 --> 00:39:15.760
there instances later in their lives where
they didn't remember something or what was the

468
00:39:15.800 --> 00:39:20.039
purpose of that? There were There
were actually four hours of missing time when

469
00:39:20.039 --> 00:39:22.800
they were actually on the craft,
and some of that is the most compelling

470
00:39:22.840 --> 00:39:30.159
and most I don't know, carroling
information you could imagine, I think.

471
00:39:30.880 --> 00:39:32.880
And then how was it that they
were transported onto the craft? Did they

472
00:39:32.920 --> 00:39:38.880
remember that? Yeah? Basically there
was this light, this beam that beamed

473
00:39:38.920 --> 00:39:43.559
them up and it sucked up other
things too. But eventually they wound up

474
00:39:43.599 --> 00:39:49.039
there and a kind of holding cell
with other things. But they were examined

475
00:39:49.559 --> 00:39:53.920
physically and during the during the hypnosis
sessions, I mean, they were it

476
00:39:54.000 --> 00:40:00.119
was really quite traumatic. What did
the beings that they encounter to look like

477
00:40:01.119 --> 00:40:08.000
yeah, yeah, yeah. Let
me let me get to a section that

478
00:40:08.360 --> 00:40:13.800
really describes at least one of them. This was an encounter that they had.

479
00:40:13.840 --> 00:40:20.920
As I mentioned, this went on
after the event itself, and Eli's

480
00:40:21.159 --> 00:40:25.880
Giffert, during the hypnotic sessions,
kept scratching at her, at her at

481
00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:32.039
her neck, and so doctor Anixeer
said why are you doing that? And

482
00:40:32.079 --> 00:40:36.360
she said, I can't talk about
it. So he kept pressing, but

483
00:40:36.480 --> 00:40:42.960
in a way that was subtle.
Finally she said, probes, that's how

484
00:40:43.000 --> 00:40:46.559
they watch us, that's how they
track us. They know everything we're doing,

485
00:40:47.119 --> 00:40:50.599
they know when we're doing it,
they know how we're doing it.

486
00:40:51.440 --> 00:40:57.960
So here's a description. And this
comes from an event that happened weeks after,

487
00:40:58.079 --> 00:41:01.760
several weeks after the actual It was
four weeks later, in the dead

488
00:41:01.800 --> 00:41:07.920
of early morning that dreams recurred with
an intensity unlike any of the others in

489
00:41:07.960 --> 00:41:13.800
his Tom saw himself once again back
in the camper, trapped and screaming while

490
00:41:13.800 --> 00:41:17.239
the illuminated creatures encircled him. He
was screaming, but there was no sound,

491
00:41:17.679 --> 00:41:21.639
and then he saw a flashing image. It was of a long,

492
00:41:21.880 --> 00:41:25.440
narrow tunnel with lights running along the
sides. But then it was gone again,

493
00:41:25.519 --> 00:41:29.440
and then he saw a being who
was all white, the color of

494
00:41:29.480 --> 00:41:32.119
the tunnel light. Again he saw
a flashing image, and it was of

495
00:41:32.280 --> 00:41:37.719
several beings like that they were trying
to restrain him. Then the vision was

496
00:41:37.760 --> 00:41:45.000
gone and only the first figure remained. So these are the emerging subconscious things

497
00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:49.079
that had been suppressed that are coming
out in dreams. They come out in

498
00:41:49.199 --> 00:41:53.199
vivid detail in the hypnosis sessions.
But here's a description. Then the vision

499
00:41:53.320 --> 00:41:58.440
was gone and only the first figure
remained. The being is four feet tall.

500
00:41:58.880 --> 00:42:01.559
He wears a white lumine uniform with
an upturned arrow on the chest.

501
00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:07.199
He has no facial features, no
mouth or lips, only slits. He

502
00:42:07.280 --> 00:42:10.960
passes directly through the wall. He
stands behind the headboard. He stays there,

503
00:42:12.280 --> 00:42:16.880
passes his three long fingers over Eliza's
face over and over. Tom can

504
00:42:16.960 --> 00:42:22.119
only see the hand. He opens
his eyes, and directly above him is

505
00:42:22.119 --> 00:42:24.960
the face of the white being.
You're dreaming, he hears the voice say.

506
00:42:25.440 --> 00:42:30.199
Then he looks to Elise's face and
sees the burn marks its fingers have

507
00:42:30.320 --> 00:42:34.000
left. Hey, wait a minute, Tom says aloud. This is no

508
00:42:34.119 --> 00:42:37.639
dream. He turns to Dawn and
gasps. He was awake. He knew

509
00:42:37.639 --> 00:42:40.559
he was awake. And Dawn had
the burn marks all over her face.

510
00:42:43.920 --> 00:42:46.639
When like this incident happened, did
they go to the doctor to have those

511
00:42:46.760 --> 00:42:51.519
burn marks checked out? They did, Actually, they took photographs of it.

512
00:42:51.719 --> 00:42:55.599
Mm hmm. Wow. And so
yeah, I mean, all of

513
00:42:55.639 --> 00:43:04.039
these sound like very terrifying experiences.
Yeah, here's what another this comes from

514
00:43:04.079 --> 00:43:13.280
the tapes. This is the doctor
speaking. Take a deep breath, let

515
00:43:13.280 --> 00:43:15.679
your mind search, let their memory
come back on its own. Then speak

516
00:43:15.679 --> 00:43:19.559
out and share it with us.
Take your time. This is me,

517
00:43:19.679 --> 00:43:22.679
my wife and I on the edge
of our seats in anticipation. Already anexter

518
00:43:22.920 --> 00:43:28.800
had established they were inside the ship
at the time they fell asleep. At

519
00:43:28.880 --> 00:43:32.519
last, Tom Gifford spoke. His
face was a mask of concentration. His

520
00:43:32.679 --> 00:43:37.719
vision was hazy for the period,
though obviously he was struggling to see it.

521
00:43:37.320 --> 00:43:40.800
I see bright, bright, blinking
lights. I'm on my back,

522
00:43:42.159 --> 00:43:45.119
encircled by people looking at me.
I see their outlines in the light,

523
00:43:45.519 --> 00:43:51.239
strange shadows, but it's so bright. Go on, persisted anixter. Take

524
00:43:51.280 --> 00:43:53.320
a deep breath, let it out, and see if you can remember more.

525
00:43:53.840 --> 00:43:58.800
I'm fighting, fighting, and resisting
them. In the camper, Tom

526
00:43:58.840 --> 00:44:04.079
has suddenly agitating. Elise is grasping
from my hand as she's being pulled away.

527
00:44:04.360 --> 00:44:07.440
They're white, white all over,
and I'm fighting. He throws his

528
00:44:07.480 --> 00:44:10.039
head to one side. I want
to remember things about that, but the

529
00:44:10.119 --> 00:44:15.519
memories don't seem concrete, more like
images. Suddenly, Elise's voice rings out

530
00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:21.039
with a volume in hysteria that sets
our teeth on edge bug eyes. She

531
00:44:21.159 --> 00:44:24.199
screams. Anexter swings around to her, say more, it's one of the

532
00:44:24.199 --> 00:44:29.079
white ones, she says, perplexed, then in a panic voice, can't

533
00:44:29.159 --> 00:44:31.920
move. I'm just scared, she
begins crying. I want to go home

534
00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:37.119
now. She weeps, her chest
heaving as terror rises up inside her.

535
00:44:37.400 --> 00:44:40.320
Long fingers. She adds, suddenly
tense as she sees it. There's three

536
00:44:40.719 --> 00:44:45.360
around my face, almost touching,
but not touching. What's on the other

537
00:44:45.440 --> 00:44:51.639
side of the fingers anixter Prod's light, white white light. I remember this

538
00:44:51.760 --> 00:44:54.280
hallway all lit up in blue lights, even in the ground. I guess

539
00:44:54.360 --> 00:44:58.719
I'm walking, but it doesn't feel
like I'm walking. Go on, It's

540
00:44:58.840 --> 00:45:01.519
like a tunnel, long, no
room, just a long tunnel of lights

541
00:45:01.880 --> 00:45:07.920
until finally there's an opening. Who
are you with the white guy? Where

542
00:45:07.960 --> 00:45:09.920
is your husband? I don't know
where he is, she moans. I

543
00:45:09.920 --> 00:45:15.079
can feel him in my mind,
though, I feel I'm linked to him.

544
00:45:15.440 --> 00:45:17.639
Big head, real white. I
can't tell what they're made of,

545
00:45:17.960 --> 00:45:22.239
like skin so translucent it glows,
but you can't see veins and things.

546
00:45:22.440 --> 00:45:27.719
She strains to see. I guess
he's wearing a shiny covering too. I

547
00:45:27.760 --> 00:45:30.719
don't know what kind of material that
is. She hesitates. I see something

548
00:45:30.760 --> 00:45:35.320
on his chest. It's like an
arrow, just the top of an arrow.

549
00:45:35.679 --> 00:45:39.519
What else? Three fingers and a
thumb, really shiny, really long.

550
00:45:39.800 --> 00:45:44.639
I just hate his eyes so dark
you can't even see them, can't

551
00:45:44.639 --> 00:45:47.480
see the parts, like our eyes. They're big. Then go skinny at

552
00:45:47.480 --> 00:45:52.280
the end. That tiny nose,
practically just two holes, little tiny mouth,

553
00:45:52.519 --> 00:45:55.519
but I don't think there are teeth
or even lips, a little chin,

554
00:45:55.840 --> 00:46:00.360
no hair, skinny body like a
five year old's my height. What

555
00:46:00.559 --> 00:46:05.880
happened is at this point? What
does he say or do? I'm supposed

556
00:46:05.920 --> 00:46:08.599
to just lie on the table.
It's okay. I don't know why he

557
00:46:08.719 --> 00:46:13.400
keeps looking in my eyes. He
puts his finger on my face, just

558
00:46:13.440 --> 00:46:20.639
like he did at home that time
when he burned me. So these experiences

559
00:46:21.280 --> 00:46:29.199
do they continue to this day?
They've abated, they continued for some period

560
00:46:29.239 --> 00:46:35.519
of time. And really, what
at least the annextra thought was lack a

561
00:46:35.519 --> 00:46:39.000
pow. You know, if you've
had a really traumatic experience, it doesn't

562
00:46:39.119 --> 00:46:44.920
just go away. It's like an
explosion in a tunnel or in a cave.

563
00:46:45.440 --> 00:46:51.840
It reverberates. And his theory was
that a lot of what happened afterwards

564
00:46:52.440 --> 00:47:00.280
was post traumatic stress. So how
long did they have actual in the You

565
00:47:00.320 --> 00:47:06.280
all can surmised it might be difficult
to know for sure, but how long

566
00:47:06.320 --> 00:47:14.159
do you think they were having actual
experiences? A couple of years, and

567
00:47:14.719 --> 00:47:20.199
all in the early nineties or late
eighties into the nineties, late eighties into

568
00:47:20.239 --> 00:47:22.559
the nineties. And if you ask
them now, they still think it's going

569
00:47:22.559 --> 00:47:27.199
on. They still think they're watched. But the psychologist thinks that that could

570
00:47:27.320 --> 00:47:32.480
or psychiatrists thinks it could be post
traumatic stress syndrome. Yeah, in the

571
00:47:32.519 --> 00:47:37.360
sense that you know, if you
hear pipes rattling or doors creaking, you

572
00:47:37.400 --> 00:47:45.840
know, if you're really you know, I had this drawing experience, the

573
00:47:45.880 --> 00:47:51.599
interpretation of those noises becomes becomes different
to someone that's gone through that versus someone

574
00:47:51.599 --> 00:47:59.840
that hasn't. These experiences they had
were was there any communication beyond just what

575
00:48:00.079 --> 00:48:07.159
it seemed to be experimentation or is
there any information? Yes, imparted on

576
00:48:07.199 --> 00:48:13.199
them? What was that? This
is one of the more stunning sequences,

577
00:48:17.440 --> 00:48:22.039
the doctor says, Elise, and
this is why she's under hypnosis. Elise,

578
00:48:22.119 --> 00:48:25.800
do you have any idea what these
beings want or why they're here?

579
00:48:28.039 --> 00:48:31.639
It was macabb watching as Leaves sprang
up in her chair, suddenly animated and

580
00:48:31.679 --> 00:48:36.840
alert. Her voice, rather than
soft and emotional, took on a new

581
00:48:36.880 --> 00:48:40.239
cadence, which was clipped and direct, quite unlike her. They want to

582
00:48:40.239 --> 00:48:45.000
make contact with the population. Tom
and I are specimens, imperfect like the

583
00:48:45.079 --> 00:48:50.079
human race. When we're ready to
communicate with them face to face, then

584
00:48:50.119 --> 00:48:54.800
possibly the world will be two mm
hmmm. And now we have to study

585
00:48:54.800 --> 00:49:00.800
our reactions so they know hm,
oh, go ahead. They have to

586
00:49:00.800 --> 00:49:04.400
study our reactions so they know how
to approach us. They don't have emotions

587
00:49:04.480 --> 00:49:07.880
like ours, so they need us
to teach them. They need to understand

588
00:49:07.039 --> 00:49:10.719
humans. Do you have a sense
as to who they are and where they

589
00:49:10.760 --> 00:49:15.239
come from. There are five galaxies, theirs is the next closest. In

590
00:49:15.360 --> 00:49:20.239
order for all five galaxies to work
together one day, they have to start,

591
00:49:20.360 --> 00:49:23.079
and they are starting with us,
so will be united galaxies. What

592
00:49:23.239 --> 00:49:28.079
else do you know? I know
where the universe ends, she said,

593
00:49:28.280 --> 00:49:31.880
rattling the words off in staccato fashion. Is that something you can put into

594
00:49:31.920 --> 00:49:38.880
words? Our universe ends where thirs
begins. Our universe ends when all its

595
00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:45.920
matter stops mattering to us and start
starts mattering to them. Every one in

596
00:49:45.920 --> 00:49:49.960
the room looked to one another's,
stunned at what they heard and what they

597
00:49:50.000 --> 00:49:52.559
were seeing. For now, sitting
on the edge of the outer date cushioned

598
00:49:52.639 --> 00:49:59.719
arm chair sat alive Gifford, her
body rigid and vibrating with new found energy.

599
00:50:00.960 --> 00:50:06.320
And were you there? Yeah?
I was there? Sure? Huh?

600
00:50:06.400 --> 00:50:10.480
What did it feel like, you
know, variancing this chilling m h

601
00:50:12.800 --> 00:50:15.760
I mean, did you did you
walk away with the sense that somehow you

602
00:50:15.880 --> 00:50:22.320
were you know, you had just
been a part of a sort of a

603
00:50:22.360 --> 00:50:28.920
communication or of information coming from Absolutely. Yeah. It was like it was

604
00:50:29.000 --> 00:50:34.079
like being in the presence of a
medium and channeling. There's there's a couple

605
00:50:34.079 --> 00:50:39.320
of other things that were really interesting, is there? She She doesn't want

606
00:50:39.320 --> 00:50:44.800
to talk about the examination for obvious
reasons. So this is something that that

607
00:50:45.000 --> 00:50:49.760
you know finally comes out, but
but you know it took some some coaxing.

608
00:50:50.199 --> 00:50:53.800
But there were other things, Alice, why do you think there are

609
00:50:53.840 --> 00:50:58.000
things you don't want to remember?
I don't know. Is there something preventing

610
00:50:58.039 --> 00:51:00.519
you from sharing what you know?
I can't tell you. If these beings

611
00:51:00.519 --> 00:51:05.119
are in contact with you, tell
me what you know about them. God

612
00:51:05.199 --> 00:51:08.320
created our wor this is so bizarre
because can you imagine somebody just off the

613
00:51:08.360 --> 00:51:14.280
top of their head, like rattling
this off. God created our world in

614
00:51:14.280 --> 00:51:16.719
his image, but not theirs she
croaked, or any of the others.

615
00:51:17.360 --> 00:51:22.800
Are there many different kinds of beings? Yes, different ones, different hybrids.

616
00:51:22.280 --> 00:51:27.320
When do you think this communication will
happen between the aliens and humans?

617
00:51:27.599 --> 00:51:30.719
I don't know. In my lifetime? How long will you live? The

618
00:51:30.760 --> 00:51:36.679
hairs on the back of my neck
rays in a normal man's lifetime are children's?

619
00:51:36.760 --> 00:51:39.519
She said? At last, it
was then that I had the distinct

620
00:51:39.559 --> 00:51:44.440
feeling that I was in a chess
match of words. Alive had begun to

621
00:51:44.480 --> 00:51:49.360
take satisfaction and the cleverness the sharpness
of her responses. I tried a new

622
00:51:49.440 --> 00:51:54.559
tact. Are we watched as a
population regularly? Yes, by many different

623
00:51:54.679 --> 00:52:00.159
kinds of beings sent on missions from
the One Supreme, said, finishing my

624
00:52:00.239 --> 00:52:05.840
sentence. What does that mean?
There's one supreme being that controls all of

625
00:52:05.880 --> 00:52:08.599
them? He sends missions here.
They're not here of their own accord.

626
00:52:09.079 --> 00:52:15.000
This is language she would never use. This is like a president or like

627
00:52:15.039 --> 00:52:19.320
a god. She responded, with
crackling directness. What else do you know

628
00:52:19.400 --> 00:52:22.079
about the One Supreme? The beings
could care less if they were here or

629
00:52:22.159 --> 00:52:28.239
not, she continued in the same
clipped, militant voice. They're just following

630
00:52:28.360 --> 00:52:31.599
orders. Where do I take this
from here? I asked myself. You

631
00:52:31.719 --> 00:52:37.559
talked about the universe and matter earlier. You said our universe where ends where

632
00:52:37.599 --> 00:52:44.159
theirs begin begins our She could complete
this now, Our universe ends when its

633
00:52:44.239 --> 00:52:47.840
matter stops mattering to us and starts
mattering to them. What does that mean?

634
00:52:49.199 --> 00:52:52.400
I don't know, she said,
simply. The missions these alleys are

635
00:52:52.400 --> 00:52:55.519
on. Are they friendly or unfriendly? They're neutral? They could care less.

636
00:52:55.840 --> 00:53:01.079
What does the One Supreme want for
all? Gaslexies to live harmoniously together.

637
00:53:01.559 --> 00:53:06.519
Do we have a separate god from
the One Supreme? No? What

638
00:53:06.639 --> 00:53:08.800
else do you know about this entity? Is it a being? Like the

639
00:53:08.840 --> 00:53:15.199
others read the Bible? Do they
know about our project? Sure? That

640
00:53:15.360 --> 00:53:22.559
something hmmm really weird? I know, I know, I know. So

641
00:53:22.880 --> 00:53:28.199
they felt did they feel themselves?
I mean they've they felt traumatized, no

642
00:53:28.360 --> 00:53:34.239
doubt by all of this, Like
they still feel traumatized by it. Well,

643
00:53:34.480 --> 00:53:36.639
this is the thing, I mean, I i'd matter. You know,

644
00:53:36.679 --> 00:53:38.760
it's difficult to talk about things,
even for me to talk about it,

645
00:53:38.880 --> 00:53:43.039
let alone them. But I mean
they were you know, they were

646
00:53:43.079 --> 00:53:50.039
probed and you know, sexually dealt
with and uh and like animals, like

647
00:53:50.119 --> 00:53:53.679
animals in a laboratory, and yeah, did it leave them traumatized? Yeah?

648
00:53:53.679 --> 00:53:58.000
It left them traumatized? Mm hmm. I mean did they take away

649
00:53:58.199 --> 00:54:02.920
any positive anything positive from these experiences? That one of the one of the

650
00:54:04.119 --> 00:54:07.400
really you know, I say about
this book, it's like a crack in

651
00:54:07.440 --> 00:54:13.239
the wall, you know, and
like let's say we're living us in a

652
00:54:13.320 --> 00:54:16.119
kind of room. This is a
crack in the room the wall that that

653
00:54:16.239 --> 00:54:21.159
just appeared for a short period of
time, that gave you an insight that

654
00:54:21.199 --> 00:54:25.360
gives you an insight to what's outside
the room. And there were different kinds

655
00:54:25.400 --> 00:54:29.519
of beings, as I mentioned to
you, the sort of malevolent ones,

656
00:54:29.559 --> 00:54:35.440
the red eyed, sort of monstrous
little ones that were clearly raucous and malevolent,

657
00:54:35.480 --> 00:54:39.719
et cetera. The sort of intelligent, illuminated beings that were like scientists

658
00:54:39.480 --> 00:54:45.960
that seemed very determined to find out
what makes human beings tick. When they

659
00:54:46.199 --> 00:54:52.039
were at their worst, when when
things were in a kind of frenzy and

660
00:54:52.360 --> 00:55:00.400
they were hysterical and they really thought
they were going to die. After hours

661
00:55:00.440 --> 00:55:07.800
of this, a kind of angelic
presence, definitely feminine, swirled onto the

662
00:55:07.840 --> 00:55:13.280
scene, not a face or anything
like a presence, a female, a

663
00:55:13.320 --> 00:55:17.199
feminine presence like a Marriyan visitation,
and said, don't worry, you will

664
00:55:17.239 --> 00:55:22.039
survive this. This will be over
soon. And it had a tremendous calming

665
00:55:22.039 --> 00:55:27.800
effect. They called this this being
a sort of comforter. But it almost

666
00:55:28.000 --> 00:55:31.760
takes on a kind of religious flavor
in an odd way. And one wonders

667
00:55:32.480 --> 00:55:37.760
is if through that crack you're seeing
another realm of existence that's a kind of

668
00:55:37.960 --> 00:55:45.360
order, you know, of different
sorts of beings, or if this was

669
00:55:45.400 --> 00:55:50.440
a way to extract more emotions from
them, because probably in their minds,

670
00:55:50.920 --> 00:55:54.159
in yours in mind, whether we
know it or not, are religious figures

671
00:55:54.760 --> 00:56:00.599
angels, the Mary and you know, the Mother Mary, whatever might be

672
00:56:00.960 --> 00:56:07.280
God, and maybe these things were
drawn from them and used to find out

673
00:56:07.320 --> 00:56:12.719
how they reacted. Because if these
beings wanted to communicate in mass with the

674
00:56:12.800 --> 00:56:19.440
human population and figure out what form
to take or what methodology to use,

675
00:56:20.239 --> 00:56:24.280
they sure want to know what people
found comforting, what people found horrifying,

676
00:56:25.039 --> 00:56:30.199
what people found amusing. Do you
see what I mean right now? Since

677
00:56:30.679 --> 00:56:35.880
you've gotten involved with all of this, have you also then looked at the

678
00:56:35.920 --> 00:56:42.800
research of other people who have looked
into the alien abduction phenomenon. You know,

679
00:56:43.119 --> 00:56:46.840
it's one of those things where I
don't know, you sort of get

680
00:56:46.880 --> 00:56:51.920
sucked into it, you know.
I mean, this is something that you

681
00:56:51.960 --> 00:56:58.800
know, in certainly changed my life
too. So I won't say that every

682
00:56:58.880 --> 00:57:01.119
day I rushed to the library the
internet to see the latest one this or

683
00:57:01.119 --> 00:57:06.599
that. But yeah, no,
I've become a sort of aficionado. I

684
00:57:06.599 --> 00:57:12.800
suppose of these stories and find you
find a great similarity. For example,

685
00:57:12.800 --> 00:57:17.039
and here I'll give you an insight
that I think is unusual. If you

686
00:57:17.079 --> 00:57:21.840
go back to Betty and Barney Hill, this would be in the nineteen sixties.

687
00:57:21.840 --> 00:57:25.519
I believe, interracial couple. You
know, professional guy. I think

688
00:57:25.559 --> 00:57:30.119
his wife is a teacher and maybe
he was an insurance broker or something.

689
00:57:30.840 --> 00:57:36.480
Anyway, business suit kind of fellow
wife. It's a teacher, you know,

690
00:57:36.679 --> 00:57:40.079
stable people. Again, they had
this encounter where they had missing time,

691
00:57:40.159 --> 00:57:44.920
so they saw a UFO it covered
above them. They look at their

692
00:57:44.960 --> 00:57:47.079
watch, They look at their watch
when they're back in their car, and

693
00:57:47.519 --> 00:57:52.719
you know four hours have passed.
They go to a doctor, they're hypnotized,

694
00:57:52.760 --> 00:58:00.480
and they recover an experience not so
unlike the Gifferts, minus this incredible

695
00:58:00.559 --> 00:58:05.760
detail, this conscious detail, et
cetera. So there are a lot of

696
00:58:05.800 --> 00:58:09.360
stories like where a person says they
were abducted and you have to be you

697
00:58:09.400 --> 00:58:14.440
know one who write there's one person
and this is what they say. But

698
00:58:14.480 --> 00:58:17.679
once you deal with more than one
person, and once you deal with people

699
00:58:17.960 --> 00:58:24.519
that consciously deal with something, I
think that thirty years ago or whenever this

700
00:58:24.599 --> 00:58:31.079
happened, forty with the with the
couple I described, I think that things

701
00:58:31.119 --> 00:58:36.719
have come a long long way since
then, and the curtain is open a

702
00:58:36.719 --> 00:58:39.559
lot more than it was, And
I think this is kind of a huge

703
00:58:39.719 --> 00:58:45.960
step forward towards whatever communication is going
to happen. If you think about the

704
00:58:46.039 --> 00:58:50.199
early stories of UFOs, there are
pictures like you know, in the Himalayas

705
00:58:50.280 --> 00:58:54.480
or something, you'd see a disc
shaped object black and white. But now

706
00:58:54.800 --> 00:58:59.840
you know. fIF Simpson, the
governor of Arizona, talks about seeing a

707
00:59:00.440 --> 00:59:06.239
craft the size of a football field
hover overhead while he's playing with his child

708
00:59:06.320 --> 00:59:09.719
in a playground and then take off
at tremendous speed along with a thousand others

709
00:59:10.880 --> 00:59:16.960
in Phoenix, Arizona. So these
experiences now that were once little glimpses are

710
00:59:17.000 --> 00:59:22.239
now full blown experiences. And I
can't think of a more full blown experience

711
00:59:22.320 --> 00:59:29.079
than the one the Mojave incident describes. So somebody's happening. It's certainly moving

712
00:59:29.159 --> 00:59:37.199
towards a much more full view of
spacecraft of encounters. I think it's something

713
00:59:37.239 --> 00:59:40.239
like fifteen million people say they've been
abductive. I mean, these are big

714
00:59:40.320 --> 00:59:47.159
numbers. You see. Airline pilots
Jimmy Carter reported seeing a UFO. Ronald

715
00:59:47.239 --> 00:59:52.960
Reagan Air Force one reported seeing a
UFO. You know, you have policemen,

716
00:59:52.960 --> 00:59:54.760
you have airplane pilots, you have
air force, you know, fighter

717
00:59:54.800 --> 01:00:00.800
pilots. So what you're seeing now
are not subtle things? Do you know

718
01:00:00.800 --> 01:00:07.360
they're not subtle? How did people
react when you share that you know what

719
01:00:07.519 --> 01:00:09.840
the subject of your book is about, and that it's not just fiction that

720
01:00:09.920 --> 01:00:15.719
you believe, you know that there's
are real experiences people went through. I

721
01:00:15.719 --> 01:00:17.679
promise you this really happened to them. I mean, it's no doubt in

722
01:00:17.719 --> 01:00:22.320
my mind. And how do people
when you tell people that, how do

723
01:00:22.360 --> 01:00:29.320
they react? Well, you know, I'm lucky. I'm lucky because you

724
01:00:29.360 --> 01:00:32.840
know, I'm fairly well educated.
You know, I have a doctorate,

725
01:00:36.320 --> 01:00:38.360
I ran a company. You know, I'm a chemistry you know, in

726
01:00:38.440 --> 01:00:44.159
chemistry. So in the industry manufacturing
cars and such. Some of these are

727
01:00:44.239 --> 01:00:46.519
hard boiled industry. That was a
cop for God's sake. So it's not

728
01:00:46.719 --> 01:00:51.679
like you know, you're a guy
that you know is homeless somewhere and you

729
01:00:51.719 --> 01:00:54.159
know you have a bottle of wine
in your back pocket. And and so

730
01:00:54.239 --> 01:01:00.559
I think a lot like the difference
when you start putting you know, policemen

731
01:01:00.599 --> 01:01:06.800
together and pilots from United airlines together
and presidents together. I mean, clearly

732
01:01:06.880 --> 01:01:10.960
something's going on here. And the
reason I ask is that it does seem

733
01:01:12.079 --> 01:01:15.840
that the public is getting more and
more comfortable with the idea of UFOs,

734
01:01:16.440 --> 01:01:23.679
but the alien abduction thing still seems
to kind of be placed in a corner

735
01:01:23.880 --> 01:01:30.000
and not confronted as largely except for
you know, in our circles and amongst

736
01:01:30.039 --> 01:01:35.119
the researchers, which is interesting,
even though, like you say, if

737
01:01:35.119 --> 01:01:38.280
it's not millions, it's at least
hundreds of thousands of people. It's definitely

738
01:01:38.320 --> 01:01:45.280
millions. Well I don't know.
If I couldn't, I would say at

739
01:01:45.360 --> 01:01:50.480
least it's it's thousands, if not
hundreds of thousands at least that are claiming

740
01:01:50.519 --> 01:01:57.920
to have these experiences, which is
no small number and no small phenomenon.

741
01:01:58.880 --> 01:02:05.760
Right. So it's interesting though that
still people just can't seem to accept or

742
01:02:05.840 --> 01:02:08.320
even go there. But you know, you know, this is a funny

743
01:02:08.320 --> 01:02:14.920
thing too. I have a degree
in English, and I have a doctorate

744
01:02:14.960 --> 01:02:17.840
in Arts and Letters and an MBA, so I deal with business people all

745
01:02:17.880 --> 01:02:22.480
the time. And you know,
I have to tell you I just retired

746
01:02:22.800 --> 01:02:30.760
recently in June to right full time
and teach. But in dealing with business

747
01:02:30.760 --> 01:02:36.159
people, people that have mortgages,
large mortgages, they work. Their wives

748
01:02:36.199 --> 01:02:38.719
work. Maybe she's an attorney,
he's a business guy, maybe vice versa.

749
01:02:39.239 --> 01:02:43.760
They work eighty hours a week,
they've got a mortgage, They pay

750
01:02:43.800 --> 01:02:49.440
their taxes, they buy groceries,
they take their kids to Little league.

751
01:02:50.159 --> 01:02:52.559
They don't want to hear about this
stuff. Shoot, I mean, yeah,

752
01:02:52.599 --> 01:02:55.760
they don't want to hear about it
because their life is set. They're

753
01:02:55.800 --> 01:03:00.559
on a kind of track. And
I found in business the most funny thing

754
01:03:00.599 --> 01:03:04.039
to me is how such intelligent people
as these, I mean, with really

755
01:03:04.119 --> 01:03:09.679
high IQs and whatnot, have so
little imagination. M Well, unless it's

756
01:03:09.719 --> 01:03:15.960
your career and you're working in a
creative field, imagination, I guess can

757
01:03:15.039 --> 01:03:19.880
be a detriment to many people in
their careers. Well. Well, actually,

758
01:03:19.880 --> 01:03:22.199
I have to say, if there's
a quality that I always look for

759
01:03:22.280 --> 01:03:28.519
in business people, it was resourcefulness. Yeah. Yeah, And I think

760
01:03:28.559 --> 01:03:30.320
you make a good point though,
because a lot of people are always asking

761
01:03:30.360 --> 01:03:35.760
why is that the case? You
know, there's a lot of interesting cases

762
01:03:35.800 --> 01:03:38.039
when it comes to UFOs. There's
a lot of credible people talking about abduction,

763
01:03:38.400 --> 01:03:43.320
but people just don't seem to care. I'll give you a very good

764
01:03:43.360 --> 01:03:46.639
example that's very concrete. I had
my son who's now thirty, but when

765
01:03:46.679 --> 01:03:51.840
he was a teenager, early,
you know, adolescent, let's say fourteen,

766
01:03:53.440 --> 01:03:58.800
a cover of Time magazine was about
lines lines disease. My son was.

767
01:03:59.440 --> 01:04:02.440
We live in in a rural area
and so camping and things like that,

768
01:04:02.719 --> 01:04:06.800
you know, is part of what
we do. And limes disease was

769
01:04:06.880 --> 01:04:11.639
really, I will say, had
epidemic proportions, but there are a lot

770
01:04:11.639 --> 01:04:14.639
of people that had limes disease.
It was a cover of Time magazine.

771
01:04:15.159 --> 01:04:18.519
So my son was doing terribly.
Here's a bright guy, all suddenly he's

772
01:04:18.519 --> 01:04:23.920
getting d's and f's. He's walking
around the house like an old man.

773
01:04:23.960 --> 01:04:29.599
I mean, basically his frame is
bent over, racked in pain. And

774
01:04:29.639 --> 01:04:33.719
we're very concerned, of course.
So one day he's so frustrated he's flunking

775
01:04:33.760 --> 01:04:39.000
all his classes. He punches his
fist through the wall. Now do you

776
01:04:39.000 --> 01:04:42.920
know what that takes for a fourteen
fifteen year old kid. In frustration,

777
01:04:43.559 --> 01:04:46.880
he goes Dad, I'm sick.
Every day I go I wake up sick,

778
01:04:47.159 --> 01:04:50.880
and I go to bed sick all
day. I'm tired. I bring

779
01:04:50.960 --> 01:04:54.880
him to the doctor personally. Now, now it got serious, I'd take

780
01:04:54.920 --> 01:04:56.760
a couple of days off. I
say, we're going to put you through

781
01:04:57.079 --> 01:05:00.920
a GI series whatever tests. You
know, just can't go. I meet

782
01:05:00.960 --> 01:05:04.840
with a doctor and I said,
and in the office lobby is the Time

783
01:05:04.880 --> 01:05:09.719
magazine about lin line disease? I
said, do you think you know we

784
01:05:09.800 --> 01:05:13.960
live in near you know, in
the woods. Is it possible that he

785
01:05:14.000 --> 01:05:17.400
has lime disease? Because I don't
believe in limes disease? Wow? Of

786
01:05:17.400 --> 01:05:23.400
course my son had had lime disease
for a year. It affected his nervous

787
01:05:23.400 --> 01:05:29.679
system. He had to take mature, you know, a medication through a

788
01:05:29.679 --> 01:05:34.360
stint in his wrist directly, you
know, intervenously to get this out of

789
01:05:34.360 --> 01:05:39.199
his system because it had gone so
deep. But can you imagine a doctor

790
01:05:40.159 --> 01:05:42.920
looked at the cover of Time magazines. So I don't believe. I don't

791
01:05:42.920 --> 01:05:45.360
believe in it. I don't believe
in lime disease. And then you talk

792
01:05:45.400 --> 01:05:48.920
about Bellian abductions. Do you see
what I mean? Yeah? Yeah,

793
01:05:49.400 --> 01:05:54.639
we have a gentleman speaking at our
next UFO Congress, our conference. We

794
01:05:54.679 --> 01:06:00.079
have out here is a former professor
of sociology and he's going to address that

795
01:06:00.239 --> 01:06:05.239
very issue. He calls us talk
about hidden events, but other instances in

796
01:06:05.280 --> 01:06:13.559
the past where something that we know
now is a reality was denied in how

797
01:06:15.000 --> 01:06:21.599
science and mainstream media dealt with those
issues as the discoveries came forward and as

798
01:06:21.679 --> 01:06:27.679
people had to admit that these things
they denied in the past were realities.

799
01:06:28.280 --> 01:06:31.199
Well, look at John Mack from
Harvard. You're familiar maybe with his book?

800
01:06:31.480 --> 01:06:34.599
Yeah, oh yeah, he yeah. Well, I mean here's a

801
01:06:34.639 --> 01:06:42.679
guy that, I mean pretty much
ruined his career, an incredibly well respected

802
01:06:42.719 --> 01:06:49.920
Harvard professor, the doctorate, etc. Renowned professor examined the subject and said,

803
01:06:50.079 --> 01:06:55.320
I believe in Daly alien abduction.
This is a real and true phenomenon.

804
01:06:56.039 --> 01:07:00.159
Wrote a five hundred page book about
it, and really, I mean

805
01:07:00.480 --> 01:07:06.480
it was met with a deafening silence. Right, yeah, exactly, So

806
01:07:06.760 --> 01:07:10.559
thank you so much. We're pretty
much out of time. The book is

807
01:07:10.599 --> 01:07:15.920
called Mohave Incident. Is the best
place for people to get it on Amazon?

808
01:07:15.079 --> 01:07:18.639
Or is there somewhere else you would
recommend people go? Well, I

809
01:07:18.679 --> 01:07:23.320
mean I always like to support local
bookstores, Okay, So I mean what

810
01:07:23.000 --> 01:07:26.039
I would say is that if they
don't have it at your local bookstore,

811
01:07:26.480 --> 01:07:29.400
independent bookstore. Just just ask them
to order it and I'm sure they will.

812
01:07:29.440 --> 01:07:31.280
You have it in a day or
two. Amazon, of course,

813
01:07:31.320 --> 01:07:34.559
you can order it right now and
be in your house in a day or

814
01:07:34.599 --> 01:07:42.679
two. Barnes and Noble, at
the stores or at the internet outlets,

815
01:07:43.800 --> 01:07:45.840
so it's it's very accessible. And
by the way, you can buy it

816
01:07:45.880 --> 01:07:50.760
on my website too if you like. It's Ron Felber Ron F E.

817
01:07:50.880 --> 01:07:56.920
L B. E. R.
Felber dot com so www dot Ronflber dot

818
01:07:56.920 --> 01:08:00.360
com. Okay, all right,
well, thank you so much much for

819
01:08:00.400 --> 01:08:04.800
coming on and telling us about this
super fascinating story. It's always interesting to

820
01:08:04.880 --> 01:08:11.159
hear about, you know, more
and more of these cases, and to

821
01:08:11.239 --> 01:08:15.920
hear them from someone like you that
has such an interesting background and perspective on

822
01:08:15.960 --> 01:08:19.680
all of this. So thank you
very much. There's absolutely my pleasure.

823
01:08:20.439 --> 01:08:28.880
Thank you so much to Ron for
being on the show. Really interesting stuff.

824
01:08:28.920 --> 01:08:30.000
So you guys are going to have
to get this book. It's called

825
01:08:30.600 --> 01:08:35.479
The Mojave Incident. Like you said, it's published by Barricade Books. You

826
01:08:35.520 --> 01:08:42.920
can find it on Amazon, or
like Ron had mentioned, there's several other

827
01:08:43.159 --> 01:08:48.000
places you can find it, so
check it out and let us know what

828
01:08:48.039 --> 01:08:51.920
you think. So good luck to
Ron so again, thank you so much

829
01:08:51.960 --> 01:08:57.680
for being on the show. Thank
you also to Martin for being on the

830
01:08:57.680 --> 01:09:01.039
show and making some time while he's
traveling to come and join us and tell

831
01:09:01.119 --> 01:09:04.199
us about some news. You know, there's actually a little more news I

832
01:09:04.199 --> 01:09:08.399
wanted to share with you all,
and that is a story I wrote just

833
01:09:09.319 --> 01:09:15.039
late last week about Travis Walton.
So everybody loves to hear about Travis Walton.

834
01:09:15.079 --> 01:09:17.640
What is Travis up to? Oh, Travis is so great, and

835
01:09:17.720 --> 01:09:20.079
he is great. He's a buddy
of mine. I mean, I just

836
01:09:20.119 --> 01:09:26.159
got to he was going through town
and he stayed over the house with me

837
01:09:26.199 --> 01:09:29.319
and my girlfriend and we got to
meet and ketch up on a lot of

838
01:09:29.319 --> 01:09:33.199
stuff. And he's just a fascinating
person. But I wrote a story.

839
01:09:33.239 --> 01:09:42.119
He's got this November event coming up. It's the fortieth anniversary of the incident.

840
01:09:42.600 --> 01:09:46.680
So on the incident happened on November
fifth, So this event happening this

841
01:09:46.760 --> 01:09:50.640
year is going to also start on
November fifth. And this is kind of

842
01:09:50.760 --> 01:09:56.720
cool because one of the people he's
gonna have is Chuck Ellison. And Chuck

843
01:09:56.840 --> 01:10:03.600
Ellison was the first deputy sheriff that
Travis Walton's coworkers spoke to. So if

844
01:10:03.640 --> 01:10:08.920
you remember the story with Travis Walton, he's a logger. He's out there

845
01:10:09.000 --> 01:10:13.840
logging. Him and his buddies get
ready, it's about dusk to go home,

846
01:10:14.199 --> 01:10:16.000
and they see a bright light in
the forest. They go investigate that

847
01:10:16.119 --> 01:10:20.680
forest or that light, and they
find this hovering craft, you know,

848
01:10:21.640 --> 01:10:28.000
just above the trees in this clearing
kind of area. Travis being a knucklehead,

849
01:10:28.079 --> 01:10:30.760
and I think he was the youngest
guy, but he jumps out of

850
01:10:30.800 --> 01:10:34.640
the car and goes over there,
trying to be cool, and then he

851
01:10:34.760 --> 01:10:39.079
decides the way he says it,
he actually was crouched down. He was

852
01:10:39.119 --> 01:10:43.920
getting up, and because he decided, he got to go back to the

853
01:10:44.039 --> 01:10:45.840
truck, and the guys were yelling
for him, what are you doing get

854
01:10:45.840 --> 01:10:50.720
back here, and he got beamed
by something, flew many feet and so

855
01:10:50.840 --> 01:10:54.880
the guy thought he was dead.
They thought he was just shot by something

856
01:10:54.920 --> 01:10:59.840
and he was dead. So they
took off. Soon after they left after

857
01:10:59.840 --> 01:11:02.479
this were you know a little bit
of a distance away. They decided we

858
01:11:02.600 --> 01:11:08.600
better go back and see if Travis
is you know, work, go get

859
01:11:08.600 --> 01:11:13.439
his body. At that point,
So they go back. They're really freaked

860
01:11:13.479 --> 01:11:19.000
out, like extremely freaked. I
mean, if your friend had died,

861
01:11:19.079 --> 01:11:24.159
you would imagine And this is the
reason I'm saying this is is just a

862
01:11:24.159 --> 01:11:28.920
second, because of course this is
all alleged anecdotal information from these people.

863
01:11:29.680 --> 01:11:33.039
So they go back and Travis is
gone. They decide they better call the

864
01:11:33.039 --> 01:11:38.239
police, So they go into town, get to a phone call the police.

865
01:11:38.239 --> 01:11:42.199
The police say, we're gonna have
you know, I guess it was,

866
01:11:42.479 --> 01:11:45.359
and this is where we're going to
get some details because I think it

867
01:11:45.439 --> 01:11:48.279
might have been Chuck Ellison's wife that
they got a hold of first. But

868
01:11:48.720 --> 01:11:53.520
you know, this isn't documented anywhere
that I know of, So this is

869
01:11:53.560 --> 01:11:56.960
gonna be fun to hear from Chuck
and ask him the details. His wife,

870
01:11:56.960 --> 01:11:58.760
I think, is going to be
there to you, so we'll be

871
01:11:58.840 --> 01:12:04.720
able to ask her. But anyway, Chuck decided said I'll meet you guys

872
01:12:04.960 --> 01:12:09.720
at the parking lot up the street
of this shopping mall kind of area,

873
01:12:10.279 --> 01:12:16.399
and Ken Peterson was one of the
loggers who was there. Hopefully he'll be

874
01:12:16.439 --> 01:12:21.800
able to make it, but there
there will be other witnesses. Not everyone

875
01:12:21.880 --> 01:12:26.920
has confirmed, but Ken Peterson is
going to try, from what I understand,

876
01:12:26.960 --> 01:12:30.000
if he can. But Ken Peterson
was the one who called the police,

877
01:12:30.359 --> 01:12:33.560
and he didn't want to tell them
what had happened because he thought,

878
01:12:33.920 --> 01:12:36.560
oh, they're gonna not believe us, and they won't even come out here

879
01:12:36.600 --> 01:12:42.119
to check it out. So Chuck
Ellison comes out. They tell Chuck Travis

880
01:12:42.199 --> 01:12:44.399
is missing. We need to get
some people out here, we need to

881
01:12:44.399 --> 01:12:46.319
find him. And he says,
well, what happened. Then the guys

882
01:12:46.359 --> 01:12:49.039
described, you know, the whole
thing to him, and of course Chuck

883
01:12:49.159 --> 01:12:55.199
was, well, surprisingly I guess
he was. He was kind of open

884
01:12:55.279 --> 01:12:59.720
to it. He knew these guys
and and he says that at least there's

885
01:12:59.720 --> 01:13:03.359
intoations at and he's made a few
comments but not much in the past,

886
01:13:03.760 --> 01:13:11.000
that these guys were, you know, really distraught to the level I guess

887
01:13:11.159 --> 01:13:15.760
as you should be if if you
saw what you thought might have been your

888
01:13:15.760 --> 01:13:19.399
friend being killed in front of you
so or colleague. So they were really

889
01:13:19.399 --> 01:13:24.359
freaked out. So we took them
seriously and they did the investigation and the

890
01:13:24.359 --> 01:13:28.960
rest is history. Read Travis's book
or go look at our story at open

891
01:13:29.000 --> 01:13:34.520
Minds TV because I embedded a UFO
Congress talk that Travis did for us a

892
01:13:34.560 --> 01:13:39.800
few years ago where he talks about
the entire incident, and we have this

893
01:13:39.960 --> 01:13:43.560
online on YouTube for free. And
if you go to open Minds dot tv

894
01:13:43.640 --> 01:13:46.760
and look at this story about the
first police officer on the scene to speak

895
01:13:46.760 --> 01:13:50.840
at the Travis Walton fortieth event,
you'll see you'll be able to watch that

896
01:13:51.239 --> 01:13:55.600
entire thing, So go check it
out. It's going to be really interesting

897
01:13:55.640 --> 01:14:00.840
to hear from Chuck Ellison. There
will be other witnesses like Chuck who haven't

898
01:14:00.920 --> 01:14:05.079
spoken publicly or in a public form
like this before, so it's going to

899
01:14:05.119 --> 01:14:10.720
be a unique and fun event.
So check out that posting and hopefully you

900
01:14:10.760 --> 01:14:15.640
can make it. I'll be mceing, so I'll also be hosting these panels,

901
01:14:15.680 --> 01:14:19.239
so I'll be doing the questioning and
getting to the to the bottom and

902
01:14:19.279 --> 01:14:24.199
the heart of all of this interesting
stuff. So no doubt there will be,

903
01:14:24.560 --> 01:14:28.399
you know, forty some years later, there'll be some more information for

904
01:14:28.479 --> 01:14:33.000
the public that has not been heard
before. That's what's so interesting about this

905
01:14:33.079 --> 01:14:39.680
case. You have so many witnesses
and now as the years have gone by,

906
01:14:40.439 --> 01:14:43.680
you know, with Open Minds,
we've been able to at the Congress,

907
01:14:43.680 --> 01:14:47.119
get some of the witnesses who hadn't
spoken before, and being able to

908
01:14:47.159 --> 01:14:53.800
see the behind the scenes and how
these guys interact. It's very much like

909
01:14:54.000 --> 01:15:00.520
how people would interact, I think
if they had truly experienced the things.

910
01:15:00.800 --> 01:15:05.199
Not one interaction between these guys has
indicated to me that there's any false,

911
01:15:10.279 --> 01:15:15.119
you know, claims going on,
and these guys struggle with things. Of

912
01:15:15.159 --> 01:15:19.880
course, this is gonna hurt you
or affect you emotionally, and they do

913
01:15:20.000 --> 01:15:25.079
have these effects. These guys aren't
always the best of friends. They're not

914
01:15:25.560 --> 01:15:30.920
all best buddies there. They are
acquaintances and deal with each other as such.

915
01:15:30.960 --> 01:15:33.600
Some of them know each other more
than others. But my point here

916
01:15:33.800 --> 01:15:40.079
is just that it's not like these
guys are bound by a secret or seem

917
01:15:40.159 --> 01:15:45.800
to be bound by secrets or anything. They're just individuals living their lives,

918
01:15:45.840 --> 01:15:51.039
all dealing with what they experienced in
different ways, with different perceptions about what

919
01:15:51.239 --> 01:15:57.159
had happened, but all agreeing that
this happened, that this craft of some

920
01:15:57.319 --> 01:16:01.439
sort was there in the forest,
their buddy. They almost got blamed for

921
01:16:01.720 --> 01:16:05.920
murdering Travis because people didn't want to
believe. Of course, there was an

922
01:16:05.960 --> 01:16:13.000
extraterrestrial or some strange craft there.
Of course, it's an assumption that it's

923
01:16:13.039 --> 01:16:16.239
extraterrestrial, so it's really weird stuff. But it's gonna be a great event.

924
01:16:16.279 --> 01:16:20.720
So that's gonna be really fun and
really excited about that. But yeah,

925
01:16:20.720 --> 01:16:24.800
I wanted to share that. But
other than that, we do have

926
01:16:25.159 --> 01:16:30.039
some videos and pictures online. Roger
Marsho's the director of communications for Moofon,

927
01:16:30.439 --> 01:16:38.720
is just doing a great job getting
into unsolved and you know, closed cases

928
01:16:38.760 --> 01:16:44.840
for Moufon, largely where they determined
they couldn't determine what it was the witness

929
01:16:45.079 --> 01:16:48.560
had seen, so really interesting stuff
there at the sided Openminds dot TV.

930
01:16:50.119 --> 01:16:55.800
As for the UFO Congress, like
I told you guys earlier, we've got

931
01:16:55.800 --> 01:17:00.800
a lot of cool stuff, but
we're going to have kind of, you

932
01:17:00.840 --> 01:17:05.960
know, a couple citizen hearing type
of things because it was exciting. So

933
01:17:06.000 --> 01:17:11.279
if you're not aware of that,
this citizen hearing for disclosure was a couple

934
01:17:11.239 --> 01:17:15.720
of years ago and it was a
mock kind of hearing that was hosted by

935
01:17:15.720 --> 01:17:19.720
Steven Bassett. But Stephen Bassett wasn't
the only guy who put this event on.

936
01:17:19.840 --> 01:17:23.439
So we're going to have some of
the other guys. Just because we

937
01:17:23.800 --> 01:17:26.840
gave Stephen Bassett an award, we
heard what he had to say about all

938
01:17:26.840 --> 01:17:29.399
of this, but now we want
to hear from some of the other people

939
01:17:29.439 --> 01:17:32.600
involved. So we're going to have
Ruben Langdon. He was a guy who

940
01:17:32.760 --> 01:17:38.239
helped produce the whole thing, and
he has edited along with Jeremy Corbel,

941
01:17:38.680 --> 01:17:42.279
who you guys have heard on the
show, but he they've edited together all

942
01:17:42.319 --> 01:17:46.119
the video footage for the entire thing, and so they're going to be there

943
01:17:46.199 --> 01:17:49.640
to show some of the best footage
and to talk about this and to talk

944
01:17:49.640 --> 01:17:55.199
about a future project they have related
to this that you all can help with

945
01:17:55.359 --> 01:17:59.640
that you all can be in on
a bit. So they're going to be

946
01:17:59.680 --> 01:18:02.600
talking about that. But we're also
going to have one of those congressmen who

947
01:18:02.720 --> 01:18:06.840
was skeptical who showed up and was
like, Okay, what are these goofballs

948
01:18:06.880 --> 01:18:10.439
gonna tell me? You know?
And he says, you know, some

949
01:18:10.479 --> 01:18:13.920
of them were goofballs that he heard
from, but he says a lot of

950
01:18:13.960 --> 01:18:16.640
them weren't, and a lot of
them were very convincing, and he wants

951
01:18:16.680 --> 01:18:21.159
to talk about how and why he
was convinced that this is a real phenomena

952
01:18:21.439 --> 01:18:30.119
and what needs to be done going
forward regarding government secrecy in this arena when

953
01:18:30.119 --> 01:18:35.119
it comes to UFO. So terribly
interesting. This is going to be unique,

954
01:18:35.439 --> 01:18:39.920
and this is great. We're really
excited about that. So he's going

955
01:18:40.000 --> 01:18:47.159
to do his own lecture and he's
going to participate in some panels. So

956
01:18:47.199 --> 01:18:53.239
and this is Congressman Cook, who
was a representative from Utah. So he's

957
01:18:53.279 --> 01:18:58.199
in the House of Representatives and we're
really excited about that. But let alone

958
01:18:58.239 --> 01:19:00.239
a lot of other great people we're
gonna have on Greenwald. We're going to

959
01:19:00.319 --> 01:19:04.000
have Oh this is funny. Okay, one more thing I know I'm going

960
01:19:04.039 --> 01:19:10.399
on, but Chase Kletzky. So
you guys know we've had her on the

961
01:19:10.520 --> 01:19:15.159
show. She's a move On investigator
and she's kind of even got her own

962
01:19:15.680 --> 01:19:19.720
move On investigation team with move On, and that's new. Actually since we

963
01:19:19.800 --> 01:19:28.680
interviewed her, I believe so well. I know so because interestingly I interviewed

964
01:19:28.720 --> 01:19:31.680
her at the Travis Walton event.
At that time, she wasn't with mouf

965
01:19:31.720 --> 01:19:36.520
On because she had been with Moufon
but she left it move On. But

966
01:19:38.479 --> 01:19:44.680
like soon after the Travis Walton conference, you know last year where he had

967
01:19:44.760 --> 01:19:48.079
kind of this pre conference kind of
thing out there in November last year,

968
01:19:49.079 --> 01:19:54.079
you know, there was another event
where Chase was and she got to speaking

969
01:19:54.079 --> 01:19:58.960
with Jan Harzan, the director of
move On, and she ended up going

970
01:19:58.960 --> 01:20:02.960
back with Moufon. Anyway, you
may have noticed this. She's out in

971
01:20:03.000 --> 01:20:10.119
Australia doing talks about UFOs and she's
got all these news stories. Australia loves

972
01:20:10.199 --> 01:20:14.479
Chase Kletzky because they're writing all these
news stories about Chase and this important UFO

973
01:20:14.560 --> 01:20:16.600
investigator and how she thinks we're about
to crack the case. You know,

974
01:20:16.720 --> 01:20:21.359
soon we're all going to know what's
more about what's going on and there'll be

975
01:20:21.439 --> 01:20:26.399
less secrecy. So really interesting,
and she's going to be speaking at the

976
01:20:26.479 --> 01:20:30.359
UFO Congress as well. We have
I don't know, we've got a lot

977
01:20:30.439 --> 01:20:34.800
of exciting stuff we've got. I
think this is kind of funny dueling PhDs.

978
01:20:34.840 --> 01:20:39.960
We have a professor of history who's
going to talk about the bad Aliens,

979
01:20:40.000 --> 01:20:44.039
and of course this is David Jacobs
who's done a lot of research into

980
01:20:44.039 --> 01:20:46.359
this field. But then we have
a director, a professor, a retired

981
01:20:46.359 --> 01:20:49.560
professor of journalism who's going to say
the opposite. He's going to say,

982
01:20:49.560 --> 01:20:53.399
no, I think that they're all
pretty good and they're here to help us.

983
01:20:53.439 --> 01:20:57.920
So kind of like our interview today, you know, is it good,

984
01:20:58.159 --> 01:21:00.039
is it bad? Is it somewhere
in between? I mean, I

985
01:21:00.079 --> 01:21:03.359
don't know what the heck's going on
here, people, but it sure is

986
01:21:03.439 --> 01:21:08.359
curious. That's why I like trying
to find out. So we've got a

987
01:21:08.359 --> 01:21:11.720
lot of really interesting stuff. Go
to ufocongress dot com to check that out.

988
01:21:12.079 --> 01:21:16.159
Be sure to res you reserve your
room asap because I think it up

989
01:21:16.239 --> 01:21:23.880
here's we're gonna sell out of rooms
earlier than usual because we just have it's

990
01:21:23.920 --> 01:21:28.680
a popular conference, and really there's
limited space at this conference. I mean

991
01:21:28.920 --> 01:21:33.119
it's a one. There's no other
place like this where you've got this beautiful

992
01:21:33.199 --> 01:21:38.760
hotel, you know, a top
of the line hotel where the richie riches

993
01:21:38.840 --> 01:21:42.920
go to play golf and whatever.
Where we've got the rooms down to like

994
01:21:43.239 --> 01:21:47.760
less than half off so it's affordable. And everybody in this beautiful location hanging

995
01:21:47.840 --> 01:21:54.640
out on all the tables and the
beautiful outdoor spaces are all UFO people.

996
01:21:54.760 --> 01:22:00.920
So there are all of these conversations
everywhere going on about this topic all the

997
01:22:00.960 --> 01:22:04.880
way from your nuts and bolts to
you know, the more fringe type of

998
01:22:04.960 --> 01:22:12.479
topics. And then amongst all of
these are some of your favorite researchers and

999
01:22:12.800 --> 01:22:18.359
authors in this field. You know, Travis is always there again, you

1000
01:22:18.399 --> 01:22:24.960
know now a regular are Kathleen Martin
and Stanton Friedman. Even if they're not

1001
01:22:25.079 --> 01:22:29.720
speaking, they come to just be
there and to talk with their fellow researchers

1002
01:22:29.840 --> 01:22:34.880
and to talk with interested people in
the public. So that's one of those

1003
01:22:34.920 --> 01:22:40.920
things. We have a lot of
researchers who are typically there and authors even

1004
01:22:40.960 --> 01:22:44.840
if they're not speaking, because it's
kind of like the event to get together

1005
01:22:44.880 --> 01:22:49.880
and to talk and and when can
you talk to the community in that sort

1006
01:22:49.920 --> 01:22:53.800
of way, You can't except for
at the UFO Congress. So, I

1007
01:22:53.840 --> 01:22:56.800
mean, that's what it is.
That's what it's always been. That's the

1008
01:22:56.880 --> 01:23:02.520
legacy that we've tried to continue on, which was created even before we owned

1009
01:23:03.000 --> 01:23:10.119
the end rand the event. It's
changed hand a few times, but that's

1010
01:23:10.199 --> 01:23:15.039
that's something we've tried to keep.
So anyway, Ufocongress dot Com, go

1011
01:23:15.079 --> 01:23:18.159
to Openminds dot tv for everything else. We've got updates on the Puerto Rico

1012
01:23:18.279 --> 01:23:24.800
case at open mindstat tv and on
the new UFO Report. Go to open

1013
01:23:24.800 --> 01:23:28.760
minds doat tv if you want to
get our email newsletters where we keep you

1014
01:23:28.840 --> 01:23:32.600
up to date on all the latest
news and everything via email. You'll find

1015
01:23:32.680 --> 01:23:38.720
a box in the upper right hand
corner on openminds dot tv where you can

1016
01:23:38.800 --> 01:23:44.680
do that. I want to thank
Caleb Haigs for the opening end closed music.

1017
01:23:45.000 --> 01:23:48.600
You can find him on the radio
page at openminds dot tv a link

1018
01:23:48.640 --> 01:23:55.880
to the clerk chronicles where he posts
his spectacular music. And I want to

1019
01:23:56.159 --> 01:24:00.640
also thank you because you guys are
awesome. It's and I want to thank

1020
01:24:01.079 --> 01:24:05.920
you. You guys are awesome.
It is always great to see you guys

1021
01:24:05.920 --> 01:24:10.960
at some of these events we get
to. Honestly, I'm gonna be at

1022
01:24:11.039 --> 01:24:15.039
less of these events, not because
i want to, just because other things

1023
01:24:15.079 --> 01:24:16.840
in my life are kind of pressing. And really, you know, I'm

1024
01:24:16.840 --> 01:24:20.159
gonna be speaking at the UFO Congress
and I'm gonna I'm gonna try to limit

1025
01:24:20.199 --> 01:24:23.840
myself. You know, we have
our own stellar event. I should just

1026
01:24:23.920 --> 01:24:28.720
be speaking at our event because it's
awesome. So if you want to hear

1027
01:24:28.800 --> 01:24:32.439
Alejandro Rojas and some of my interesting
lectures. And you know, I'm fairly

1028
01:24:32.520 --> 01:24:36.199
humble guy. I am pretty humble
compared to many others. But I really

1029
01:24:36.279 --> 01:24:40.279
like my lectures. You know,
I've been doing this for many many years,

1030
01:24:40.279 --> 01:24:45.520
writing stories pretty much every day on
this topic. Every story I delve

1031
01:24:45.600 --> 01:24:49.560
and I do research. So some
of the favorite information I've come across over

1032
01:24:49.600 --> 01:24:56.640
the years I've compiled into different lectures
that I've been doing around and so I've

1033
01:24:56.640 --> 01:25:01.840
had to start to turn down lecture
requests. Uh, And I so appreciate

1034
01:25:01.880 --> 01:25:05.920
people who ask me. It's just
that I've my life is really busy.

1035
01:25:05.960 --> 01:25:10.640
I got open minds to deal with
an other things. So uh, come

1036
01:25:10.680 --> 01:25:15.239
to the Congress if you want to
see some stuff or and uh anyway,

1037
01:25:15.359 --> 01:25:17.319
but it's still wonderful to see you
guys when I get a chance. We

1038
01:25:17.359 --> 01:25:21.640
will bet be at mouf On in
a month and we'll see some of you

1039
01:25:21.720 --> 01:25:27.560
there. But otherwise, thanks so
much for listening everybody. You guys are

1040
01:25:27.640 --> 01:25:30.760
awesome, and UH, it's a
great pleasure to be able to talk to

1041
01:25:30.760 --> 01:25:35.279
you all on a weekly basis.
You have a wonderful week, and we

1042
01:25:35.399 --> 01:25:40.760
do have a guest scheduled, so
we will be back next week Audios moo

1043
01:25:40.920 --> 01:26:38.000
tuttos your motionless sound glass