1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,960 The last judgment is not just something that happens at the end, but it 2 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:09,560 is a perpetual reality. It is basically an image of how reality functions. 3 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:13,080 And it's not arbitrary to think that that would be the case, because it 4 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:17,600 is an image of the end, and you have to remember how the ancients 5 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:22,359 thought of the end of something. It's not just the moment when the time 6 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:26,920 runs out, but it is the moment that shows you the reason for everything 7 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:43,280 that came before. This is Jonathan Pezhew, Welcome to the Symbolic World. 8 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,640 I'm very glad that you've all decided to join us for what I know is 9 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,679 going to be a very special evening. And I want to make a few 10 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:07,000 introductory remarks about our speaker, though I know he's already well known to many 11 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:14,680 of you, mister Jonathan Pajoe, who has emerged as a truly powerful and 12 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:22,079 prophetic voice in the last years, speaking deeply to our cultures longing for meaning 13 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:27,640 and coherence, both at the individual level and at the level of our shared 14 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:34,760 corporate existence. He has been identified, i think not playfully, alongside of 15 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:41,400 Jordan Peterson, John Berbeiki, and Bishop Robert Baron as one of the four 16 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:46,159 horsemen of meaning, and I know that many of you have benefited from his 17 00:01:46,239 --> 00:01:49,159 gifts as an interpreter. A couple of years ago I had the privilege of 18 00:01:49,159 --> 00:01:56,120 sitting next to Jonathan in a seminar on Exodus with Jordan Peterson and other friends, 19 00:01:56,439 --> 00:01:59,920 and that was an example for me of the kind of thing that Jonathan 20 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:05,799 does so very well, this opening up of the texts and the images, 21 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:10,680 of the symbols, of the structures of meaning and narrative of the past here 22 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:15,599 in the present. A few months ago, our students had the pleasure of 23 00:02:15,599 --> 00:02:20,199 seeing Jonathan in Greece, where our program begins, and I had the great 24 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:24,639 pleasure of going to Meteora, that are the oldest sites of monastic sites in 25 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:30,039 the Orthodox world, where Jonathan gave a wonderful talk about how what monks do 26 00:02:30,199 --> 00:02:37,800 is they look up and they show others the way of looking up. But 27 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:42,280 Jonathan Bijou is, of course not a monk, and I think it is 28 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:49,479 true to say that his own life and witness has been dedicated to teaching others 29 00:02:49,759 --> 00:02:54,520 to look up. Though he's known broadly as a commentator his metier, you 30 00:02:54,599 --> 00:02:59,280 might say his vocation is as a carver, as an artist as a carver 31 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:04,719 of icons in particular, and these are found in churches around the world. 32 00:03:05,479 --> 00:03:09,919 Jonathan has spoken about how the icon works by compression. That is to say, 33 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:16,400 it draws together, at different times elements and ways of thinking and understanding 34 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:23,280 into a fundamental relationship such that all these can shine forth in this compressed form 35 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:28,919 kind of unfolds. I think something very similar to that is true of Donovan's 36 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:32,639 work as a commentator, that he draws diverse aspects of our world, our 37 00:03:32,719 --> 00:03:37,560 culture, or history, everything from comic books, the movie scenes, to 38 00:03:38,639 --> 00:03:45,840 postmodernism through to the images of the deep symbolic past, into relationship with one 39 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:52,919 another such that their meaning can shine forth for and in us this evening, 40 00:03:53,479 --> 00:03:58,680 Jonathan will bring his considerable interpretive talents to bear upon the topic of the medievil 41 00:03:59,039 --> 00:04:03,360 cosmos. Yet in speaking to us of the shape of the medieval world, 42 00:04:03,919 --> 00:04:11,280 he is not only speaking of the past. With his iconographic sensibility, he 43 00:04:11,319 --> 00:04:19,160 will help us to locate our present in this time and place Rolston College was 44 00:04:19,199 --> 00:04:23,480 founded. You might say, on a kind of double conviction, if we're 45 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:30,399 going to speak about directionality, both of the need to look up and in 46 00:04:30,439 --> 00:04:34,680 the conviction that in order to look forward, we need to look back. 47 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:42,319 By allowing our present moment to be illuminated by the past, we are better 48 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:46,639 able to understand who and what we are and what is the work we must 49 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:51,600 undertake. I can think of no better guide for us on this particular journey 50 00:04:53,079 --> 00:04:56,560 than mister Pago, and I hope you will join me in giving him a 51 00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:10,160 warm welcome. Now, so first off, I obviously want to thank Stephen, 52 00:05:10,399 --> 00:05:15,240 thank Ralston. You know, as someone who went to university in a 53 00:05:15,319 --> 00:05:20,000 very postmodern world, I studied fine art and so that the way of thinking 54 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:26,439 was very strong even in the nineties, this kind of very critical and cynical 55 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:30,879 approach to art, to the stories, you know, to the great stories 56 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,519 that make us who we are. You know. Encountering Ralston and the type 57 00:05:33,519 --> 00:05:36,560 of work they do, and also the level of students that we've met at 58 00:05:36,639 --> 00:05:42,959 Ralston has been inspiring for us and gives me personally hope for the future, 59 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:46,079 but hope for my own children who are coming close to that age where they 60 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:49,959 will also have to enter the world. And the type of vision that Rawlson 61 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:55,079 is able to give the students, this love of these ancient stories. But 62 00:05:55,279 --> 00:06:00,399 like Stephen said, in his introduction, this is not about just analyzing past 63 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:04,439 in order to accumulate knowledge, but it really is finding the light in the 64 00:06:04,519 --> 00:06:10,600 past, but shining towards the future. And so what I want to talk 65 00:06:10,639 --> 00:06:16,000 about tonight is a specific image in the medieval world that is called the Last 66 00:06:16,079 --> 00:06:20,600 Judgment. It is one of the most complicated images in the canon of iconography, 67 00:06:20,959 --> 00:06:25,199 and I thought it'd be interesting to look at that image, especially in 68 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:29,680 the wake of the students having just read Dante's Comedia. And so of course 69 00:06:29,759 --> 00:06:34,800 Dante goes down into Hell, ascends purgatory, ascends the heavens, all up 70 00:06:34,879 --> 00:06:39,959 into the prime Mobile and into the presence of God. And you know, 71 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:45,800 of course Danti wasn't making up the things that he wrote. He was synthesizing. 72 00:06:45,879 --> 00:06:50,360 He was bringing together a cosmological vision that the ancients had, that the 73 00:06:50,399 --> 00:06:55,759 Medievals had in common. You know, That's why his poem was accepted so 74 00:06:55,920 --> 00:07:00,000 readily, because he was able to just pull these things in together so beautifully. 75 00:07:00,519 --> 00:07:08,000 And the icon of the Last Judgment does that also that it is a 76 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:15,240 kind of synthesis of Christian imagery, and it pulls everything together into one image. 77 00:07:15,279 --> 00:07:19,680 This particular version of the Last Judgment is in a church near Venice on 78 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:25,600 an island called Torcello. Is the sixth century church, but the mosaics were 79 00:07:25,639 --> 00:07:28,639 made in the twelfth century, and so they have this kind of high medieval 80 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:32,839 Byzantine Venice approached. Some of the images in Venice would have been in the 81 00:07:32,839 --> 00:07:36,399 same style as well. Some of the images that you find in Sicily also, 82 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:41,439 for example, wouldn't be similar in style. And the thing about this 83 00:07:41,439 --> 00:07:46,120 it is that I like particularly this one version of the Last Judgment is that 84 00:07:46,879 --> 00:07:51,160 it contains three images, let's say, stuck together. So in the middle 85 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:55,160 tier you'll see it. On the left there is the image of the Last 86 00:07:55,240 --> 00:08:00,240 Judgment itself you can see as the Crucifixion, and then below the crucifixion is 87 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:05,040 an image called the Anastasis or the descent into Hades. And these three images 88 00:08:05,079 --> 00:08:09,560 are kind of stacked on top of each other. As we look at it, 89 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:13,160 I think there's a very particular reason why this is the case, and 90 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:18,319 those three together will help us understand what it is that this image, this 91 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:22,800 image of the Last Judgment, What can it tell us today? Right? 92 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:26,920 Is it just this very strange, weird images of people getting devoured by worms, 93 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:31,600 and everybody loves to look at the devils, especially, you know, 94 00:08:31,639 --> 00:08:35,080 all these kind of strange figures of angels and demons, and you know, 95 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:37,840 what is going on in this or does it have something to tell us? 96 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:43,240 And I do believe that it does. I believe that the image of the 97 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:48,519 Last Judgment is actually a way to understand how identity formation functions. And I 98 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:52,759 would even go a little further, but looking at this image and kind of 99 00:08:52,879 --> 00:08:56,360 understanding this image can help us understand how thought functions. It is, how 100 00:08:56,399 --> 00:09:01,720 it is that we come to bring things together, and how it is that 101 00:09:01,759 --> 00:09:05,240 they break apart right this problem of attention, how it is that we're capable 102 00:09:05,279 --> 00:09:09,159 of having attention, and how it is that our attention dissipates is contained in 103 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:15,039 this in this structure and all the weird things about it. Once we understand 104 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,480 that, we can see how the Last Judgment is not just something that happens 105 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:22,879 at the end, but it is a perpetual reality. It is basically an 106 00:09:22,919 --> 00:09:28,480 image of how reality functions. And it's not arbitrary to think that that would 107 00:09:28,519 --> 00:09:31,159 be the case, because it is an image of the end. And you 108 00:09:31,279 --> 00:09:37,320 have to remember how the ancients thought of the end. Of something is not 109 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:41,399 just the moment when the time runs out, but it is the moment that 110 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:46,279 shows you the reason for everything that came before. Right, we still use 111 00:09:46,399 --> 00:09:48,440 that way of speaking today, Right, what is our end? That is, 112 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:52,639 what is the purpose? What is the reason why we're doing things? 113 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:58,000 And so the ancients would have understood the Last Judgment as being a culmination, 114 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:03,519 right, as a kind of say, enthesis of all things towards their purpose 115 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:07,320 you could say, towards their purpose, you could say, towards their identity, 116 00:10:07,639 --> 00:10:11,159 towards what it is that they are, and how it is that we 117 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:16,519 discern what things are. Sounds very abstract at the outset, but we'll see 118 00:10:16,879 --> 00:10:20,120 that once we get into it. It's not so difficult. Now. One 119 00:10:20,159 --> 00:10:24,639 of the things to understand is that in church architecture in the Middle Ages, 120 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:31,080 the images were placed very deliberately. It wasn't accidental. The reason why we 121 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:35,240 put certain images in certain places, and in this case it's quite simple. 122 00:10:35,919 --> 00:10:39,879 The church is in Basilica. It's a long church and in what we would 123 00:10:39,879 --> 00:10:43,279 call the east side of the church. That when you enter into a church 124 00:10:43,279 --> 00:10:46,240 you look towards the end, you see what's called the apse, which is 125 00:10:46,279 --> 00:10:48,639 the place where the priest is, you know, and it has a little 126 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:52,720 half dome on top of it. And so in the apse is this image, 127 00:10:54,039 --> 00:10:58,919 which is an image of the Virgin with the child in her arms. 128 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:03,320 And then on the western wall, which is the last part of the church, 129 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:07,960 is the last judgment. So it's it's quite simple, there's nothing subtle 130 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:11,279 about it. It's the beginning and the end. It's the child and the 131 00:11:11,279 --> 00:11:16,879 fulfillment. It's the rising and setting of the sun. Right, there's this 132 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:20,679 saying that the sun of man will come like a lightning bolt from the east 133 00:11:20,759 --> 00:11:26,039 to the west. And that's why churches are directed eastwards, is that there 134 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:30,559 is this movement. I mean it's a cosmic movement. I mean everything moves 135 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,000 from east to west, the stars, the sun, the moon, there's 136 00:11:33,039 --> 00:11:39,679 this there's this motion that the ancients understood as defining the beginning and the end. 137 00:11:39,759 --> 00:11:45,080 And so the way the church is structured is that you have this image 138 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:48,159 of the beginning, and that's the image from which revelation comes. Right. 139 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:52,480 The priest is there, the Eucharist is being celebrated there. That's the source 140 00:11:52,519 --> 00:11:56,960 of identity. And especially in this particular church, which is a cathedral, 141 00:11:58,039 --> 00:12:01,919 a cathedral means that it's the seat of the bishop. It's the most important 142 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:07,720 church in an area that is recognized as the cathedral, which is the throne 143 00:12:07,919 --> 00:12:13,159 of the bishop. The throne of the bishop is underneath below here and is 144 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:18,639 down at the bottom there, and that is the source of authority, and 145 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:22,600 it moves west towards the end. So the whole church is structured in that 146 00:12:24,279 --> 00:12:28,720 way, which brings you up and down the register. That what's interesting about 147 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:35,399 this image is that now the end is represented in three ways. It's represented 148 00:12:35,519 --> 00:12:37,879 as the end of Christ, that is the end in the sense of the 149 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:43,279 crucifixion, right. It's represented as the end in a different way, which 150 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:48,279 is what we call the heroing of Hades, where Christ goes down into death 151 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:54,120 and saves the people that are caught there. And it's of course represented as 152 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:58,639 the last judgment itself, which is now the finality of all things. And 153 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:03,559 this is also a way to help understand how the medieval cosmos, or how 154 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:07,759 medieval people thought about the world. They all fit into each other. That 155 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:13,360 is, what's happening in one image is repeated in the other, and what's 156 00:13:13,399 --> 00:13:18,519 happening in one image is contained in the other image. It's like a little 157 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:24,679 fractal bundle where things are just inserted into each other so that you get this 158 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:31,600 unfurling of reality in this way. A little example to start with, you'll 159 00:13:31,639 --> 00:13:35,600 start to get used to it as we've moved into the image is that the 160 00:13:35,639 --> 00:13:41,200 crucifixion is of course Christ dying on the cross, his mother on his right 161 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:46,240 side, Saint John the Evangelist on his left side, and then underneath him 162 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:50,600 there's this weird little image if you look at underneath his feet, so that's 163 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:54,200 a skull, and it's the skull of Adam. So you can see the 164 00:13:54,240 --> 00:14:01,360 blood of Jesus is coming down his feet and coming down his and is dripping 165 00:14:01,399 --> 00:14:05,399 down onto the skull of Atom. So there's a whole legendary mechanism to understand 166 00:14:05,399 --> 00:14:09,559 why the skull of Atam was there, and everything that's not that important. 167 00:14:09,759 --> 00:14:15,080 What's mostly the important is to understand the relationship that is happening there, which 168 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:22,200 is that Christ on the cross is redeeming Adam. He is the new Atom. 169 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:26,480 When we see the blood and water coming from his side, it's often 170 00:14:26,759 --> 00:14:31,480 described as the new creation, as the birth of the Church. As Eve 171 00:14:31,559 --> 00:14:35,039 taken from the side of Atam all of these analogies which are found in the 172 00:14:35,039 --> 00:14:43,279 liturgical text. But what's going on down here, right, that is what 173 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:50,080 this image is about. And so the descent into hades is the secret of 174 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:52,000 what's happening on the cross. That's the way to understand it. So you 175 00:14:52,039 --> 00:14:56,480 have the cross, you have the crucifixion, and then what's secretly happening on 176 00:14:56,559 --> 00:15:01,799 the cross is represented in this image, which is Christ coming down into death. 177 00:15:01,879 --> 00:15:07,440 And now the cross doesn't hold him. He holds the cross as a 178 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:11,360 standard, you know, almost like as a weapon, as this thing that 179 00:15:11,399 --> 00:15:16,440 he's conquered. Actually, and he is going down into death and he is 180 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:20,120 grabbing Adam and Eve. That's who he's going to get. So the two 181 00:15:20,159 --> 00:15:24,679 old people that you see are Adam and Eve, and then there are different 182 00:15:24,679 --> 00:15:28,639 people represented in different ways, the kings, King David and King Solomon, 183 00:15:30,519 --> 00:15:35,480 and then Saint John the Baptist who is pointing to him and who it was 184 00:15:35,639 --> 00:15:39,559 just there before. And then what you see are the dead, right, 185 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:46,879 all these dead people in their tombs that are rising up right that they're coming 186 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:54,679 into this moment where Christ is bringing everybody out of death. But that, 187 00:15:54,919 --> 00:16:00,840 like I said, is basically contained in this little image. So the anastasis 188 00:16:02,399 --> 00:16:06,039 is contained in the crucifixion. Okay, we'll get back to these images later, 189 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:08,799 but I just want you to start to think the way that the Medievals 190 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:18,480 thought, and in a very similar manner, the whole Last Judgment is contained 191 00:16:18,399 --> 00:16:26,039 in the other images as well. The Last Judgment is a very complicated image. 192 00:16:26,159 --> 00:16:29,039 But let me point to you to a few things right at the outset, 193 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,480 just for you to understand how all of this comes together. Is that 194 00:16:32,639 --> 00:16:40,600 right here, right this is again Adam and Eve. So Adam and Eve 195 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:45,639 are now in the Last Judgment, the skull of Adam is in. Is 196 00:16:45,639 --> 00:16:48,600 that the Crucifixion. Adam and Eve are being taken out of death, and 197 00:16:48,679 --> 00:16:52,840 now they're being brought to the final end, the end of all things, 198 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:59,159 where everything is being revealed and the Judgment is happening. All through these images 199 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:03,200 you have this same pattern where things enter into each other, where things kind 200 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:07,000 of fit into each other, and there's this reflection in different ways of the 201 00:17:07,039 --> 00:17:11,240 images above and below. And so as we move forward, I'm gonna we're 202 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:15,839 gonna show you a few of these. But the first thing to understand is 203 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:22,079 what is the Last Judgment? What is going on in this image. And 204 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:26,480 so this is the first image that we know of of the Last Judgment. 205 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:32,240 This is the sixth century image from Ravenna. And so now we have Christ 206 00:17:32,599 --> 00:17:37,640 in the center and he is has his hand out, he is pointing to 207 00:17:37,759 --> 00:17:42,119 the sheep, and on his left hand you have the goats. And so 208 00:17:42,279 --> 00:17:45,880 that is where the whole idea of the Last Judgment comes from. Is Christ 209 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:51,240 saying, on that day, on that final day, I will say to 210 00:17:51,279 --> 00:17:56,720 the sheep, come enter into my kignom. And I will say to the 211 00:17:56,759 --> 00:18:00,440 goats, leave away, far away from me right. And so that's the 212 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:04,759 way to understand the basic idea of what the Last Judgment is. It is 213 00:18:04,799 --> 00:18:10,400 there are some things which are broad inside the sheep, and there are some 214 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:14,279 things that are excluded, which are the goats. And so on the right 215 00:18:14,319 --> 00:18:17,160 hand of Christ, on his right hand, you have the sheep, and 216 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:18,440 on his left hand. That's what it said in the text. It says 217 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:22,839 He'll say to the sheep on his right enter, to the goats on his 218 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:26,480 left, go away. Obviously it's not the kind of thinking that we like 219 00:18:26,559 --> 00:18:30,319 to have today. But what I'd like to propose to you is that that 220 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:38,359 is actually how all identity formation works. That is, anything that exists is 221 00:18:38,599 --> 00:18:44,680 necessarily a judge. Anything that has identity, or anything, I mean anything 222 00:18:44,759 --> 00:18:48,519 like a cup, a pencil, a baseball club, like, anything that 223 00:18:49,079 --> 00:18:56,279 has identity is necessarily a judge because because it is a specific identity, it 224 00:18:56,359 --> 00:19:00,519 necessarily has two things. It has it inside and it has an outside. 225 00:19:00,839 --> 00:19:03,200 It has things that belong to it and has things that don't belong to it, 226 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,960 and there's sometimes there's a hierarchy of that type of participation. It's always 227 00:19:08,039 --> 00:19:14,359 often not necessarily a clear demarcation, but there is a type of hierarchy of 228 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:18,799 participation in something, and then there is an outside. And so all things 229 00:19:18,839 --> 00:19:26,920 that have identity necessarily function as judges. And that's why in the ancient world 230 00:19:26,599 --> 00:19:30,359 you know, for example, a saint that I love very much. And 231 00:19:30,519 --> 00:19:34,799 Maximus the Confessor he talks about the divine logos like in the Gospel, but 232 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:40,039 he says, all things have a logos, right, All things that exist 233 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:44,519 have a name, a reason, a purpose, and actually all of those 234 00:19:44,559 --> 00:19:48,599 are the same. The name of something, the reason, the purpose for 235 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:52,880 it, it's the reason why you see it in the first place. Why 236 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:59,039 do I identify something as having identity as having been is because I can see 237 00:19:59,079 --> 00:20:02,240 its purpose. And if it's unconscious, it didn't have to be conscious. 238 00:20:02,599 --> 00:20:04,880 Right. It's like if I know that if I have a name for something, 239 00:20:06,319 --> 00:20:08,240 it is because there's a reason why there's a name for it. I 240 00:20:08,319 --> 00:20:12,799 know what a bottle is because I drink water out of it, and it's 241 00:20:12,839 --> 00:20:18,480 a judge because and I participate in that judgment because I don't want to get 242 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:19,839 wet. It is. So if there's a hole in the bottle, it's 243 00:20:19,839 --> 00:20:26,000 a bad water bottle, and I will exclude it it from its participation in 244 00:20:26,039 --> 00:20:30,400 the identity of bottle. Right. And so this is just how things work, 245 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:34,279 and you just can't avoid it, Like this is just how reality functions. 246 00:20:34,279 --> 00:20:37,559 Whether it's your family, whether it's the school, all of these things 247 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:42,119 all have this structure. And the last judgment, the way to understand it 248 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:47,359 is it's the most extreme version of that. It's the one that takes it 249 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:52,920 to the very limit of what you can almost tolerate in terms of understanding what 250 00:20:53,079 --> 00:20:59,599 identity formation is. Think of it like it's a cosmic version of every time 251 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:04,279 I read recognize something as having identity, but it's this massive, massive version 252 00:21:04,319 --> 00:21:11,160 of it so what do we have in the image? We have Christ in 253 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:17,000 glory at the center of the image. This is the son of Man, 254 00:21:17,519 --> 00:21:22,400 right, this is the prophetic image of the perfect man. So if you're 255 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:26,359 not a Christian in some ways it doesn't totally matter for this conversation. Just 256 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:30,440 think of it like it's the ideal person. Right. As Christians we believe 257 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,599 that that's this person, but just as a structure. Think of it like 258 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:40,400 it's the ideal of a person. It's it's the human, the highest human 259 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:42,960 that you can imagine, the one that contains all that it was his human 260 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:48,200 in it. And that is basically the source of why we know that there's 261 00:21:48,319 --> 00:21:52,640 humanity, and it's the culmination of all that is good about what human is. 262 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:57,480 Okay, and that's here, and that's the judge. And why is 263 00:21:57,519 --> 00:22:03,160 it the judge? Because that is it? Right, That's how we understand 264 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:04,960 the good. It's like, if we know what a good person is, 265 00:22:06,279 --> 00:22:11,200 then we inevitably know what aligns with it, what comes towards it, and 266 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,599 what is moving away from it. Right. You can think about it in 267 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,359 a sports team is always the easiest one because it's amoral, so it's doesn't 268 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:22,839 rub people wrong. You know, you know what a good player, but 269 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:29,359 good basketball player is, and that good basketball player becomes a standard at which 270 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:33,000 we measure other basketball players. It just happens. And if you have one 271 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:37,039 that rises up really high, then that standard gets higher, and all of 272 00:22:37,079 --> 00:22:41,279 a sudden, the judgment becomes stronger. Right, if I go to a 273 00:22:41,319 --> 00:22:44,720 basketball game for kids that are thirteen fourteen, or if I go to a 274 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:49,240 professional basketball game, I do not judge the same way because the standard of 275 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:53,000 the participation is not the same. If I go to a professional game, 276 00:22:53,079 --> 00:22:56,720 those the standards I've been lifted so high that I'm like, well, that's 277 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,680 not Michael Jordan, Right. It's always there's always this, this judging, 278 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,519 and this is something that that happens inevitably. So imagine, so this is 279 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:12,400 the perfect man who is there, and now he is signifying that he is 280 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:17,680 judging the world. He is showing the right hand and the left hand, 281 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:22,240 and he is saying to those on the right, come in, and to 282 00:23:22,319 --> 00:23:26,720 those on the left move away. Those that don't fit with the ideal or 283 00:23:26,799 --> 00:23:30,519 aren't moving towards the ideal are pushed out, and those that fit with the 284 00:23:30,559 --> 00:23:37,200 ideal or moving towards the ideal are gathered in. So the structure of the 285 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:41,759 image, this image of the heavenly man. And that's how to understand it. 286 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,000 Right, It's like, why is it a heavenly man. It's because 287 00:23:45,039 --> 00:23:48,799 he's the ideal. He's just higher than us, and it's a it's a 288 00:23:48,839 --> 00:23:52,640 metaphor, but it's not. And that's how we think of things that are 289 00:23:52,799 --> 00:23:56,000 above us, that are more than us, that are higher than us, 290 00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:00,799 and so they appear in heaven, they come down from above, and that's 291 00:24:00,839 --> 00:24:03,599 how we recognize that they are the model at which we measure other things. 292 00:24:03,799 --> 00:24:07,680 And it's a very practical thing. There's nothing it's not magical in any way. 293 00:24:08,039 --> 00:24:11,200 You know, if I am here and I'm in front of you, 294 00:24:11,799 --> 00:24:15,000 and I'm above you right now, then I am the one who gives the 295 00:24:15,039 --> 00:24:21,200 standard of what is happening now right. I am the measure of this event 296 00:24:21,279 --> 00:24:25,440 at this moment. And this's just how it works. If you have someone 297 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:29,920 who rises above even physically above everybody else, then everybody can see him, 298 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,720 but not all of you can see each other. And so I can judge 299 00:24:33,759 --> 00:24:37,240 all of you, right, but you can't all judge each other. You 300 00:24:37,279 --> 00:24:41,319 can judge me in this case though it's a little different. But it just 301 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:45,240 to understand that this idea of the heavenly Man, right, and so the 302 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,680 image is very is very ancient, from the very beginning of Christianity. We 303 00:24:49,799 --> 00:24:56,839 have these images that represent this relationship between heaven and earth, and they're not 304 00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:03,240 actually stories like this image you see above as the heavenly Man as the Son 305 00:25:03,279 --> 00:25:07,359 of Man. And then you have the church which is below, and you 306 00:25:07,519 --> 00:25:12,680 have two apostles, you have Saint Peter as Saint Paul that are like two 307 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:19,000 pillars of the church. That again is a very simple structure of reality. 308 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,759 Right. What is church? If you know what church means, it means 309 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:26,240 that the word church, but what it translates, it means ecclesia. It 310 00:25:26,279 --> 00:25:30,440 means the gathering. Okay uh. And that's how that's how it works. 311 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:37,279 That's how a body works. Right. A body is a gathering of identities 312 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:41,240 that fit with a higher identity. It's a gathering of things that are brought 313 00:25:41,279 --> 00:25:47,839 together into a higher participation. That's what a body is. Anybody like anybody 314 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:52,079 that you can imagine, whether it's a body of literary work or whether it's 315 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:56,680 a tire or whatever. Anything you can imagine as having identity. That's how 316 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,240 it works. So it gathers the things together into its head, right, 317 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:07,559 and then it has to align with what the head is offering for it to 318 00:26:07,599 --> 00:26:11,559 be part of that body, right. And so anything you can imagine always 319 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:15,640 functions that way. So that's why we talk about the church as being a 320 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:21,480 body, as being a gathering things together that are then seen in light of 321 00:26:21,839 --> 00:26:26,720 the reason why they exist. And of course now we're talking about a giant, 322 00:26:26,839 --> 00:26:30,880 cosmic image. But that's just how things work. That's how that's how 323 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,160 all things work. It's a fractal idea. It's like, once you kind 324 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:38,000 of see the final judgment, the end of all things, in this image 325 00:26:38,039 --> 00:26:41,880 of the last Judgment, right, you get a glimpse of how it reflects 326 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:48,799 in little ways in everything that we do, okay, And so there are 327 00:26:48,839 --> 00:26:52,480 different ways of representing it. This is one way, and the ascension is 328 00:26:52,599 --> 00:26:57,880 also another image that has the same structure as the Last Judgment, in part 329 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:02,920 because in the scripture when Christ goes up, the angel says the way that 330 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,079 he went up, he's going to return. But if you understand it that 331 00:27:06,319 --> 00:27:11,440 this is what this basic image, it's a head something above an image reference 332 00:27:11,759 --> 00:27:15,079 and then a gathering below of people that are looking up and that are pointing 333 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:18,720 at it. They're saying, Oh, it's that. That's the thing that 334 00:27:18,839 --> 00:27:26,000 makes us together, right, that's the person, that's the principle, that's 335 00:27:26,079 --> 00:27:30,839 the top that makes us understand that we are we are together. And then 336 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:37,359 the Virgin becomes an image of that body herself, because she is that for 337 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,599 Christ. She's the one who gathered his body in her woo. It's pretty 338 00:27:41,839 --> 00:27:45,839 simple. She gathered the body in the room. She becomes an image for 339 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,359 the body itself. So different ways you can represent it. This is ascension. 340 00:27:48,599 --> 00:27:52,519 Sometimes it's just an ontological relationship. It's actually not seen at all. 341 00:27:52,640 --> 00:28:00,559 It's not representing anything. It's just the relationship between Christ above, the Virgin 342 00:28:00,599 --> 00:28:04,240 below, and the disciples gathered together in the body. And it's analogous to 343 00:28:04,559 --> 00:28:07,720 a person with the head and the body. The head is the place where 344 00:28:07,799 --> 00:28:11,880 meaning comes from, right. The head is the place that we recognize somebody 345 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:17,200 by. I don't usually recognize somebody by their shoulder. I tend to recognize 346 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:21,039 them by their eyes, by their expression. So the head is the place 347 00:28:21,039 --> 00:28:23,480 of meaning. It's the place of purpose, it's the place where we recognize 348 00:28:23,519 --> 00:28:29,279 identity, and so it's normal to use that type of imagery together. Now, 349 00:28:29,799 --> 00:28:32,599 the one thing I want to say, and it's important to say this 350 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,720 because it's already it's already kind of frightening to talk about the last judgment this 351 00:28:36,799 --> 00:28:41,960 way, is that there is a way to understand the idea of the right 352 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:47,440 hand and the left hand of Christ as not just being good bad, because 353 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:49,160 that's how we tend to think about it. He's like, yep, that 354 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,720 which comes towards the inside is good, that which moves towards the out side 355 00:28:52,839 --> 00:28:57,440 is bad. But in the very structure of this image, you'll see that 356 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:02,839 that is not the case, right, that that moving out from the identity 357 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:07,079 is not always bad, because obviously we're not. We don't believe in the 358 00:29:07,079 --> 00:29:11,839 monad like we believe that multiplicity is necessary and that is good. And so 359 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:17,720 there's a sense in which that which appears on the left hand of Christ will 360 00:29:17,759 --> 00:29:23,000 often represent a change, will represent uh, let's say, a kind of 361 00:29:23,039 --> 00:29:27,079 wildness to it, or a kind of a difference, and that which is 362 00:29:27,119 --> 00:29:33,440 on his right hand will represent unity, will represent identity, because it's that 363 00:29:33,519 --> 00:29:37,799 which comes towards identity, right, So it's all not always negative, not 364 00:29:37,839 --> 00:29:41,039 always positive. A good example is in this case here, this is an 365 00:29:41,039 --> 00:29:45,079 image. It's a DeAsis, which is again the Son of Man in the 366 00:29:45,079 --> 00:29:48,359 middle, and two people on the side. And now on his right hand 367 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:52,079 he has the Virgin and on his left side he has John the Baptist. 368 00:29:52,559 --> 00:29:57,160 Now, comparing those two is useful to understand the difference between the right hand 369 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:02,519 and the left hand. One is secret, one is covered, one is 370 00:30:03,559 --> 00:30:07,640 quiet, and it's kind of like this inner reality, this mystery of the 371 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:11,119 inside. And then the other one. He's out in the desert. He's 372 00:30:11,119 --> 00:30:14,400 wearing animal skins, he's got crazy hair, and he's screaming to everybody to 373 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:18,920 repent. So that's a good, like a basic way to think of it. 374 00:30:19,079 --> 00:30:22,519 If you look a little bit again to the right, you'll see Saint 375 00:30:22,519 --> 00:30:26,400 Peter, who's here, and then you'll see Saint Paul, who is a 376 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,920 little bit further down. They are again the saying that are here, the 377 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,079 two pillars of the church, Saint Peter and Saint Paul. They are again 378 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:38,519 here, which is you have Saint Peter and Saint Paul. This is the 379 00:30:38,519 --> 00:30:45,440 most interesting one because Saint Paul was not at the ascension, so Why is 380 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,960 he there? Why is he in the image of the ascension? Uh? 381 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:55,599 And it's because it's representing a structure of reality for you. It's not just 382 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:59,000 saying this is not just an event, this is like a pattern, but 383 00:30:59,119 --> 00:31:03,319 this is like a it's a way for you to see reality through these images 384 00:31:03,519 --> 00:31:07,920 rather than just a kind of didactic thing. And so who's Saint Peter? 385 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:12,319 Right? Saint Peter, He's the rock, He's the foundation. He's the 386 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,400 apostle to the inside. Right, he's the apostle to the Jews in that 387 00:31:15,559 --> 00:31:19,759 case, And who's Saint Paul? St? Paul is the apostle to the 388 00:31:19,799 --> 00:31:23,799 Gentiles. But he's not just that, he's also like the thirteenth Apostle, 389 00:31:25,119 --> 00:31:27,279 like semi legitimate, like I'm a Christian and everything. But you know, 390 00:31:27,319 --> 00:31:32,799 it's like he he kind of self justifies his existence as an apostle. Like 391 00:31:32,839 --> 00:31:36,160 he's interesting if you look at him a thinking about him as a left hand 392 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,319 you could say of Christ. He talks about himself. He says that he 393 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,759 is a shape shifter. He says that I'm all things to all men. 394 00:31:42,359 --> 00:31:47,759 So he actually says, I do not have a specific identity, right, 395 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:52,200 I am in some ways shifty in my existence. He calls himself the aborted 396 00:31:52,359 --> 00:31:56,599 apostle, heses all these really strong term sities, a fool, I'm the 397 00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:00,799 fool for Christ. Okay, So is the opposite of reason, he's the 398 00:32:00,839 --> 00:32:06,000 opposite of He has that, and in this case, it's not bad at 399 00:32:06,039 --> 00:32:09,000 all. It's actually wonderful, it's actually great. It actually is the fullness 400 00:32:09,039 --> 00:32:15,559 of being. To understand that this movement towards the inside and this movement towards 401 00:32:15,599 --> 00:32:19,960 the outside is this breathing in and breathing out of being. That is just 402 00:32:20,359 --> 00:32:23,400 a normal part of how existence functions. Okay, And I think that's important 403 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:28,240 to say because we always sometimes get too caught up in the moral question and 404 00:32:28,279 --> 00:32:30,400 thinking that it's just good bad. But clearly in this image of the Last 405 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:35,440 Judgment, that is not the case. And the importance of having Saint Peter 406 00:32:35,519 --> 00:32:37,640 and Saint Paul, like I said, not just in the Last Judgment, 407 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:42,519 but in all these other Christian images, is there to help us see this 408 00:32:42,799 --> 00:32:45,799 relationship. Right, And there's if you think about the two apostles, you'll 409 00:32:45,839 --> 00:32:52,200 start to see interesting images of what it is that they represent. So what 410 00:32:52,319 --> 00:32:58,640 is Saint Peter's sin, It's pride, right, what is pride. Pride 411 00:32:58,759 --> 00:33:04,160 is excess of identity. That's what pride is. So you can see, 412 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,720 like and what is Saint Paul's sin, right, it's the thorn in the 413 00:33:07,799 --> 00:33:13,400 flesh, okay. And so you can see in their character how they you 414 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,079 know, both in their good side and their bad side. They really represent 415 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:22,160 these true aspects of reality. This idea of gathering in the multiplicity, gathering 416 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:27,160 in the identities towards purpose, but also loosening the identity and kind of letting 417 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:31,880 things have their own particular existence, right, And that's necessary in everything we 418 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:37,599 do. It's necessary in any team, any family. You have to find 419 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,759 that balance between breathing in and breathing out. Right, you can't always be 420 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:45,680 moving towards unity, or else you cripple, and or else you become fragile. 421 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:50,400 And you can't obviously always be moving towards multiplicity because at some point your 422 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:55,200 identity stops to exist. That's called decomposition. And when things decomposed, then 423 00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:59,640 they cease to be the thing that they were. The idea of the Last 424 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:05,599 Judge is that it is this moment where the ideal man is judging all of 425 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,679 humankind, is judging all of what it is that is good and bad about 426 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:15,519 humanity, and is showing the consequences of what that does, of what that 427 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:20,639 is. And he's calling everybody towards the resurrection. And you can understand the 428 00:34:20,679 --> 00:34:27,039 resurrection again as this finality as this this is all that you are. So 429 00:34:27,079 --> 00:34:31,039 you're a person, the resurrection is everything that you are is now gathered into 430 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:37,960 something. It's gathered into the ends, gathered into the finality, and that 431 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,480 includes body and includes your soul, includes all the aspects of you, but 432 00:34:40,519 --> 00:34:45,800 now all of them kind of in this moment that is not chronological anymore. 433 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:50,159 That is like the end of time, and that the end of all things, 434 00:34:50,159 --> 00:34:52,760 and so it shows what things are. And so what we see in 435 00:34:52,760 --> 00:35:00,519 the image is you're seeing the angels calling all the dead out of their abode, 436 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:08,119 and so the animals are regurgitating the people, regurgitating their prey. And 437 00:35:08,199 --> 00:35:15,280 on the other side then you have again the monsters, the sea monsters regurgitating 438 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:20,559 their prey. As the angels are calling, right, they're calling us all 439 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:25,039 to be gathered back into the unity. And so this is of course an 440 00:35:25,039 --> 00:35:30,840 image of the movement of multiplicity into unity. Right, It is the movement 441 00:35:31,199 --> 00:35:36,119 of that which is fragmented, that which is broken, and that which has 442 00:35:36,199 --> 00:35:39,480 been eaten by animals. So for those that have read Dante will know that 443 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:46,239 the animals represent that which is not human. Sometimes it can represent aspects of 444 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:52,639 humanity, it can represent the passions. Often it represents an excess of an 445 00:35:52,679 --> 00:35:58,239 aspect of us. And so those excesses, you could say, or those 446 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:04,199 broken aspects of humanity are being given up right, and they're being gathered back 447 00:36:04,639 --> 00:36:09,239 together to form a single body, right to form a body again. And 448 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:15,519 that is represented in another way next to the angels calling the dead out of 449 00:36:15,599 --> 00:36:19,880 the earth, as the angel that is scrolling all the stars back together, 450 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:22,760 right, he's scrolling the heavens. You can see he's got the scroll of 451 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:29,920 the stars and he is basically wrapping them back together into a single role. 452 00:36:30,199 --> 00:36:34,880 There is gathering a multiplicity back into one. They're just different ways of representing 453 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,760 it. Represented as the bodies, represented as the stars. But this gathering 454 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:42,599 of all things back into their center, Okay, back into the one. 455 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,239 This is a very interesting image. So this image is so you can see, 456 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:51,840 I'll show you where it is in the image. It's down here right, 457 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,719 so here this is called the Hettemasia. I don't know if I'm pronouncing 458 00:36:55,719 --> 00:37:00,320 it rather with a bunch of Greek speakers. Makes me feel a little uh 459 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:04,559 embarrassed, but that's how I say hit Temasia, and with the head Timassia 460 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:08,599 is it's the it's the prepared throne. It's a very interesting idea. It's 461 00:37:08,639 --> 00:37:15,559 the idea that the throne is prepared for the return of the heavenly man. 462 00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:20,400 And so the ideal is coming, right, the reason for things is coming. 463 00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:24,480 But in order for it to connect, you have to get things ready. 464 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:29,880 You have to prepare the throne for the arrival of the king. And 465 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:34,559 now you see again Adam and Eve being brought to the foot of the throne. 466 00:37:35,159 --> 00:37:40,679 You know, because in many ways they are the throne, right, 467 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,760 they are the body that is gathered. They're an image you can take. 468 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:47,559 You take the first man and the first woman. It's a good way to 469 00:37:47,559 --> 00:37:52,239 get everybody in an image without having to make billions of people. It's a 470 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:54,000 good way to do it. Take the first ones, put them there and 471 00:37:54,039 --> 00:38:01,000 say these, all of humanity is gathered together as the throw. You could 472 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:05,159 imagine it as a throne. You can imagine as a city, you can 473 00:38:05,199 --> 00:38:10,239 imagine as a bride. That's often how it's represented in scripture. And this 474 00:38:10,559 --> 00:38:14,559 union of heaven and earth, and of the head and the body, and 475 00:38:14,639 --> 00:38:19,599 of the heaven and earth are represented as a sexual union. All of these 476 00:38:19,599 --> 00:38:25,079 different images are appropriate to understand the idea of gathering things together so that that 477 00:38:25,199 --> 00:38:32,679 which is above can come and encounter it. Right. It reproduces the text 478 00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:38,559 in Genesis too, where God gathers the dust together and he blows air into 479 00:38:38,599 --> 00:38:42,519 it. He takes heaven, puts it inside, like gathers a bunch of 480 00:38:42,519 --> 00:38:46,000 stuff and then puts heaven inside. And that's how things exist. That's how 481 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:52,360 everything exists. Everything exists as a gathering of body that has purpose inside it. 482 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:57,840 You need a reason, or else you cannot recognize things as having identity. 483 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:01,239 They have to have something which brings multiplicity into one. Now one are 484 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:06,159 the aspects of the last Judgment, And you know you see it of course 485 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:12,480 here quite a bit is so now you have the devils that are here, 486 00:39:13,199 --> 00:39:17,199 and you have the devils that are here, and you have the Angel that 487 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:24,519 is here, and and what are they doing. They're weighing the soul right, 488 00:39:24,559 --> 00:39:29,840 and so they're actually deciding right. They're basically judging. They're participating in 489 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:34,199 the judgment. They're judging which side you're gonna go. Are you gonna go 490 00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:37,400 on the side of the right hand, which is the one that gathers. 491 00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:38,679 Are you gonna go on the side of the left hand, which is the 492 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:44,719 dispersal and the breakdown and the decomposition. And so this idea, right, 493 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:49,880 it's it's it's one which is so universal, it's everywhere in culture, and 494 00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:53,960 so it's it's just this, it's exactly this, and everybody experiences this all 495 00:39:54,000 --> 00:40:00,719 the time. Right, It's like there is something in you, a wild 496 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:05,360 part, you know, a part that is going to break everything or however 497 00:40:05,559 --> 00:40:07,440 else you want to think of it. But there's a part in you that 498 00:40:07,599 --> 00:40:15,280 is pulling you towards dissolution, and there's an aspect of you that is pulling 499 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:20,280 you towards one that's putting you towards unity, towards good things. Saint Gregor 500 00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:22,960 Ivnissa, for example, you know, this's early Church father fourth century. 501 00:40:23,159 --> 00:40:27,760 He said at birth, all men are given an angel and a demon. 502 00:40:28,519 --> 00:40:30,400 And this is not just Homer Simpsons, this is very old, Like all 503 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:34,519 men are given an angel and a demon, and that's what we now call 504 00:40:34,679 --> 00:40:37,280 come to call a guardian angel. But you know, we've forgotten about the 505 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:43,159 guardian demon. We don't like that one. But basically, think about it 506 00:40:43,199 --> 00:40:47,079 as the aspect of you which is pulling you up, the best aspect of 507 00:40:47,079 --> 00:40:51,599 you, because you can see it, right, everybody can see it inside 508 00:40:51,639 --> 00:40:54,599 them. It's like Saint Paul would say, christ in me? What is 509 00:40:54,719 --> 00:41:00,440 christ in me? It is that the aspect of me that I can recognize 510 00:41:00,639 --> 00:41:04,280 as moving towards that which I know to be good and that I know to 511 00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:07,480 be the truth, and that which gives light. But then there's also, 512 00:41:07,639 --> 00:41:12,039 of course the flesh. That's the way Saint Paul talks about it, right, 513 00:41:12,079 --> 00:41:14,199 that I do the things that I do not want to do, that 514 00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:19,360 the flesh pulds me away from that. So you can understand it as above 515 00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:22,599 and below is a good way to understand it, right, because it's a 516 00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:29,119 very simple way to represent it because above are the patterns and the lights, 517 00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:32,079 and you don't hurt yourself much with what is above. Although yeah, it's 518 00:41:32,079 --> 00:41:36,760 true that there are storms. Let's say higher up from that, you have 519 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:38,119 the stars, you have the patterns, you have the patterns of reality, 520 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:44,159 you have the light which comes up and shines makes everything visible, and then 521 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:49,559 below you've got things that die in darkness and decompose. And so the idea 522 00:41:49,599 --> 00:41:54,800 that hell is below is a very very intuitive reality, Like it's very simple. 523 00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:59,840 You don't have to you don't have to actually work too hard to understand 524 00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:06,360 that things decomposed down here, right, and the specific and the particular is 525 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:09,880 down here, and the universal and the one is up here. And you 526 00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:14,039 can do it if you want, Like go into a field and put your 527 00:42:14,079 --> 00:42:16,800 face on the ground, and you'll see that you've seen very few things, 528 00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:21,199 right, you just see a bunch of grass and maybe a few bugs, 529 00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:23,119 you know. But if you go up a mountain, then all of a 530 00:42:23,159 --> 00:42:30,119 sudden, all that multiplicity gets gathered and gather and gathered into one until you 531 00:42:30,159 --> 00:42:32,000 can see the pattern and you can kind of see the layout. Okay, 532 00:42:32,119 --> 00:42:37,119 So this idea that heaven is above and and and that hell's below is very 533 00:42:37,199 --> 00:42:43,360 reasonable. Everybody should believe that it's not a okay, So so below down 534 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,360 here, now you have the two like the two sides, which is, 535 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:52,639 you have the gathering here and then you have the dispersal here, and the 536 00:42:52,719 --> 00:43:02,480 gathering is represented as paradise. Now Paradise is not heaven. It's really important 537 00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:08,960 to understand the difference. Paradise is not up there. Paradise is the gathering 538 00:43:09,559 --> 00:43:14,599 down here, right, it's the garden. Paradise is Eden. It's the 539 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:20,960 good which is manifested and gathered in the world. So what you have is 540 00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:25,000 you have the image of the cherub that is on the door of the garden, 541 00:43:25,119 --> 00:43:28,639 and it's usually I don't know if you can see it here, it's 542 00:43:28,639 --> 00:43:30,320 holding a lance. Often it's holding a sword, like a flaming sword. 543 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:37,119 We see Saint Peter who's opening the door right to paradise. And then in 544 00:43:37,199 --> 00:43:44,199 paradise there are three people, Abraham, the Virgin, and who can guess 545 00:43:44,199 --> 00:43:51,079 who the third one is? This guy, so I'll tell you it's a 546 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:59,639 good thief, okay. But Abraham and the Virgin, they like, it's 547 00:43:59,679 --> 00:44:05,760 really to understand, they're not metaphors for paradise. They are paradise, Okay. 548 00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:10,639 When Christ talks about the vision of Lazarus and the rich Man, he 549 00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:16,920 says, Lazarus is gathered into the bosom of Abraham. That is what paradise 550 00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:24,679 is. It is to be gathered in the thing from which your multiplicity originates. 551 00:44:27,199 --> 00:44:31,760 To be gathered to your father's is to return back to the place where 552 00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:36,000 you were one with that which is around you. That's what the garden of 553 00:44:36,159 --> 00:44:37,960 Eden is, the top of the mountain. It's the place where all multiple 554 00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:44,400 tity comes together into one. And Abraham for the Jews is paradise because he 555 00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:49,360 is the source of unity for their nation. He is the place where they 556 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,320 recognize each other as being one. Okay, that's important to understand. And 557 00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:58,840 the Virgin is of course the same for us. She is that which gathered 558 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:02,000 the body together. She represents the gathering of the body. She represents the 559 00:45:02,159 --> 00:45:07,519 throne, she represents the land. She is the mountain. She has all 560 00:45:07,559 --> 00:45:13,199 that type of imagery around her because she gathered the logos into her womb. 561 00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:17,400 The Thief is there to remind you what I told you at the beginning, 562 00:45:19,159 --> 00:45:25,519 which is that all of these images go together, because what's happening in this 563 00:45:25,639 --> 00:45:32,599 image is already happening in this image. It's all already in that image, 564 00:45:34,159 --> 00:45:37,880 because we forget there isn't one cross. There are three crosses, right, 565 00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:45,159 and there's Christ in the center, and there is one who recognizes him as 566 00:45:45,199 --> 00:45:49,000 the source of value, as the source of virtue as a source of innocence, 567 00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:52,360 and there is one who does not recognize him and mocks him and derides 568 00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:59,400 him. And so the Last Judgment is already happening on the cross. It's 569 00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:05,719 already it's all encapsulated into that one image. Not just that, but this 570 00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:09,480 also, what is Christ's doing? Why are these characters there? He's saying, 571 00:46:10,079 --> 00:46:15,239 this is your mother, this is your son. He's saying, this 572 00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:19,599 is how you're together, this is why, this is your relationship. This 573 00:46:19,639 --> 00:46:23,920 is what makes you not two but one is. I am giving you an 574 00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:30,960 identity right now. So Christ on the Cross does everything that the image of 575 00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:36,320 the Last Judgment does already. And that's why this image is so astounding, 576 00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:43,679 Right, this image, it's like all of this is gathered together into that 577 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:47,920 one image at the top, and it's just this unfurling of the consequences of 578 00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:53,280 one action. Now, why does it matter? Why? Why the cross? 579 00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:57,119 What? You know? It's like, okay, so I can understand 580 00:46:57,159 --> 00:47:00,840 this, right, I understand the idea of the ideal man, I understand 581 00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:05,039 the idea of the top of the pyramid, you know, the head honcho, 582 00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:07,519 the president, the top guy, the captain of the team. I 583 00:47:07,599 --> 00:47:12,039 get that that's easy to understand. We all know we look up to these 584 00:47:12,119 --> 00:47:15,800 characters that are heroic, that kind of have that brightness to them, and 585 00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:21,159 they kind of gather us into their leadership. Right, So why this? 586 00:47:21,599 --> 00:47:27,519 Why? Why this? Right? And that is that is the mystery of 587 00:47:27,599 --> 00:47:30,719 identity is captured in that image. And that's what all of you that have 588 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:39,800 read Dante have discovered is that identity is not doesn't just hold together. That's 589 00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:47,840 pride. That's no good. Identity is always self given. It always empties 590 00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:53,000 itself necessarily, and there's there's nothing magical about it. Right. It's a 591 00:47:53,159 --> 00:47:59,880 very it's almost technical description of how things work. So for my steering wheel 592 00:48:00,679 --> 00:48:07,320 to have its identity, it has to offer itself to the car it has 593 00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:09,760 to or else. Who cares about a steering wheel? If I just have 594 00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:14,440 a fetishized steering wheel, you know, like hung on my wall, it's 595 00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:22,519 irrelevant. All things give themselves to their higher participation. The world is made 596 00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:27,679 of sacrifice. And this is what's so fascinating about understanding. And this is 597 00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:30,639 also why you know, you hear all this talk about Christian nationalism, like 598 00:48:30,679 --> 00:48:34,960 you've probably heard all this kind of rumble about it, but there's something about 599 00:48:35,039 --> 00:48:40,159 Christian identity was very particular, which is understanding that which is understanding that identity 600 00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:46,039 always gives itself, and it gives itself in two directions. It gives itself 601 00:48:46,119 --> 00:48:50,199 up necessarily, like I said, the steering wheel has to give itself to 602 00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:52,599 the car, and the car has to give itself to the fact of driving, 603 00:48:52,639 --> 00:48:57,079 and the fact of driving has to give itself to the existence of towns 604 00:48:57,079 --> 00:49:00,000 and of people living together. All of these things have to stack up, 605 00:49:00,039 --> 00:49:04,599 all these goods to give themselves up always, and that's what you see in 606 00:49:04,639 --> 00:49:08,039 Dante, is that ultimately that leads to something that is beyond, beyond the 607 00:49:08,039 --> 00:49:13,320 world. But identity also has to give itself down, right, it has 608 00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:19,519 to have compassion. The best way to understand it is that for there to 609 00:49:19,639 --> 00:49:24,320 not just be one car, there has to be flexibility, and how car 610 00:49:24,519 --> 00:49:30,039 exists, it has to give itself to some extent, has to loosen itself 611 00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:36,840 so that you can recognize multiplicity as well. So identity always gives itself up, 612 00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:39,920 but also always gives itself down. And that's what it's amazing about this 613 00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:44,079 particular image of the last judge, and it's the only one that I know 614 00:49:44,159 --> 00:49:49,159 that has this structure where they take the three these three images and stack them 615 00:49:49,159 --> 00:49:52,360 together in a way that you see how they kind of fit into each other. 616 00:49:52,119 --> 00:49:57,760 But that is what is so to me astounding about this particular structure. 617 00:49:58,039 --> 00:50:00,760 So save the worst part for the last. So we have to talk about 618 00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:05,679 hell obviously a little bit. The way to understand the bottom of the left 619 00:50:05,679 --> 00:50:13,239 hand register, the way to understand hell is the is exactly the problem of 620 00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:19,519 fragmentation and in some ways the problem of identities and love and desire that are 621 00:50:19,559 --> 00:50:22,559 out of control. And what they do is they're not sufficient, right, 622 00:50:22,559 --> 00:50:25,719 and so sin, that's what sin is. It's like the thing that you 623 00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:30,039 aim towards. If it's the wrong thing, it's not sufficient. If it 624 00:50:30,079 --> 00:50:36,039 doesn't give itself up towards other other identities, then it becomes insufficient. It 625 00:50:36,119 --> 00:50:38,519 eats you, devours you, it burns you, right, it destroys you. 626 00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:42,599 This is not something that happens at the end of the world. It's 627 00:50:42,639 --> 00:50:45,559 something that you can experience every single day. Right. It's like if you 628 00:50:45,679 --> 00:50:51,400 give yourself to something so exclusively, or if you let something take over your 629 00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:55,199 life so exclusively and you don't let it open up and participate in the other 630 00:50:55,239 --> 00:51:00,079 goods that are available to you, then it will eat you. Right, 631 00:51:00,199 --> 00:51:05,719 It'll be like worms that are constantly eating your body. It'll be like fire 632 00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:08,800 that is burning, or it'll be like the cold that freezes you and makes 633 00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:14,000 you impossible, impossible for you to go forward. We know that it's easier 634 00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:15,719 to see that with people that are addicted. When you find when you know 635 00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:19,920 people that are addicted to something, you see it clearly. Right, it's 636 00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:23,480 like this thing, this drug, this alcohol, this whatever, has now 637 00:51:23,599 --> 00:51:28,800 taken over your life and is destroying you, but you persist in it and 638 00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:32,440 is basically devouring you. But the truth is that that can be true anything 639 00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:36,000 it's not. This can be true about work, right, It can be 640 00:51:36,039 --> 00:51:39,159 true about the love of a person. Right. You can idolize someone and 641 00:51:39,159 --> 00:51:43,039 love them so much that it will destroy you. And we've met people. 642 00:51:43,079 --> 00:51:46,960 Everybody's met someone that has let that happen to them. So it's actually like 643 00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:52,079 a coherent description of how reality works, which is that if you are captured 644 00:51:52,199 --> 00:51:58,280 by things and you don't participate in these higher goods that lead up to the 645 00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:04,199 heavenly man, then you will burn. Right, it'll it will, it 646 00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:07,159 will happen inevitably. And so, but the one thing that I want to 647 00:52:07,159 --> 00:52:12,280 show you that's actually I like about this particular image of Hell is that all 648 00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:16,559 the people of Hell are all the elites. It's like monks and emperors and 649 00:52:16,679 --> 00:52:21,400 bishops, you know. Regular people don't go to Hell, just important people. 650 00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:24,880 I kind of like that. And this can be represented as an upside 651 00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:30,320 down gathering, right as a fetishized gathering, like a like a parody of 652 00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:35,119 the right hand, you could say. And so this is the Antichrist who 653 00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:40,000 is on the lap of the devil as if he was Christ. He looks 654 00:52:40,039 --> 00:52:44,679 like Jesus. Actually he's made to look exactly like the way that you would 655 00:52:44,679 --> 00:52:47,960 represent the child Christ in the hands of the mother. That's exactly what I 656 00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:53,119 tried to tell you. It's like if you are captured by something that completely 657 00:52:53,159 --> 00:52:57,840 takes you. It's almost like an inverse. It's a parody of the right 658 00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:02,320 hand. It's like this concentrate of identity in the wrong place that then devours 659 00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:07,119 you. But what's beautiful about this is that you have these three So if 660 00:53:07,159 --> 00:53:10,440 you look at you have the Antichrist on the devil's lap, and on the 661 00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:15,400 other side you have probably Lazarus. It's not one hundred percent clear who it 662 00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:20,000 is, but it's probably Lasus. It is a soul that is saved and 663 00:53:20,079 --> 00:53:23,440 is in the bosom of Abraham. So think about it, like, show 664 00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:28,639 you the full image again. Okay, So it's actually quite beautiful because down 665 00:53:28,679 --> 00:53:34,559 here right you have Lazarus that is that is contained in the Abraham. Here 666 00:53:34,679 --> 00:53:38,559 you have the Antichrist that is on the devil. And think of it that 667 00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:44,719 across from that, if you were here and you turned around, then you 668 00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:49,480 would see Christ on the version's lap. So this is what you would see. 669 00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:53,239 So you have this beautiful kind of structure of meaning where all of the 670 00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:58,239 things kind of come together in the beginning and the end. And so I 671 00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:00,039 mean that is what I wanted to kind of help you see, is to 672 00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:06,639 maybe look at these types of images again with fresh eyes. Understand that the 673 00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:10,000 Medievals how they understood reality and the way that these image function as a kind 674 00:54:10,079 --> 00:54:15,159 of map of reality, the same way the the the gospel stories, the 675 00:54:15,159 --> 00:54:19,599 Bible stories, or the ancient mets function. And if we see them that 676 00:54:19,639 --> 00:54:22,079 way, we get we can get quite a bit of insight into how how 677 00:54:22,119 --> 00:54:34,639 the world works. So thank you for your attention. The question I have 678 00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:38,119 for you is beautifully showed up showed in this image. How things stack up 679 00:54:38,199 --> 00:54:44,480 from from the from the many to the one? How do we find our 680 00:54:44,559 --> 00:54:50,719 way from division back to unity? I mean, start with yourself, you 681 00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:53,559 know, that's probably the best thing to do. This whole image could be 682 00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:59,280 described as an image of the soul, right, and so you could actually 683 00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:04,199 understand that that you know this sometimes it's not there this one, but sometimes 684 00:55:04,199 --> 00:55:08,320 there's actually a person here in between the devil and the angel that's being weighed 685 00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:15,199 h and so inside you, right, you are all of us are made 686 00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:21,000 of multiplicities, just like together we make multiplaces with others. And so the 687 00:55:21,039 --> 00:55:25,559 best way to come back towards unity in the world is to come back towards 688 00:55:25,639 --> 00:55:30,599 unity in yourself, you know. And so uh In Jordan Peterson talks about 689 00:55:30,679 --> 00:55:34,400 cleaning a room, it's actually a great it's a great simple thing. It's 690 00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:37,880 to say that if actually it can scale from the ground up, and that 691 00:55:38,039 --> 00:55:44,119 a person that is transformed and that has you know that he's moving, you 692 00:55:44,159 --> 00:55:51,199 know, in truth towards virtue and beauty will have reverberations around them, and 693 00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:54,400 then the the world can start to clump again, you know, and I 694 00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:58,239 and I and I think, like, for example, what Ralton's doing is 695 00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:01,039 a great example, because they're saying, you know, we're not here to, 696 00:56:01,119 --> 00:56:05,440 We're not going to this is not about policy, like we're not going 697 00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:08,920 to change the entirety of America. What we're going to do is we're going 698 00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:15,480 to create a paradise and we're going to pull in the people that are capable 699 00:56:15,599 --> 00:56:22,119 and willing to enter into the right relationship with the vision. And that is 700 00:56:22,199 --> 00:56:29,480 something which will then reverberate into the future in ways that is far more real 701 00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:32,800 than if we just change the law, because when you change the law, 702 00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:38,440 you don't change anybody's heart. Right. If people think that this whatever culture 703 00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:42,239 war thing is going to be won by putting the right number of people on 704 00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:45,719 the Supreme Court from whatever side you are, that's absolutely ridiculous. Like you'll 705 00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:52,320 just increase polarity and division and fight. But transform people. That's real and 706 00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:57,559 that is undeniable when you meet someone that is transformed. Stephen and I had 707 00:56:57,559 --> 00:57:00,679 the chance to go to Mount Athos together and we were able to meet the 708 00:57:00,679 --> 00:57:06,360 abbot of one of the monasteries, and the man was just I don't know 709 00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:08,519 what to say. I mean, he was glowing, not physically glowing, 710 00:57:08,519 --> 00:57:15,840 but he was clearly a transformed person, and it hushed everybody. You know, 711 00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:19,199 It's like everybody was reduced to silence. And I think that, you 712 00:57:19,239 --> 00:57:22,719 know, we don't often meet people like that, but we meet little versions 713 00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:27,719 of it, where we encounter people that have that light and that that spark 714 00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:30,239 and are glowing and we have to That's the way transformation happens. I believe 715 00:57:30,239 --> 00:57:36,760 it. Some of what you said reminded me of Plato, both in terms 716 00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:40,840 of especially in his metaphysics, but to a lesser extent the politics that he 717 00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:46,280 describes in the Republic. Is that just a coincidence or is there any kind 718 00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:50,719 of direct influence there? No, I mean, I think that Plato is 719 00:57:50,719 --> 00:57:54,960 definitely part of the canon of the of the West and all of you know. 720 00:57:55,360 --> 00:58:00,239 I'm very in line with Justin Martyr. That is that I believe that 721 00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:02,679 all things that are good are from God. That is that, you know, 722 00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:07,360 Justin Martyr talks about those that were Christian before Christ need it, and 723 00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:10,480 he talked about the philosophers as being images of that, and that's the way 724 00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:15,239 that I see it. I think that Plato, like all the ancient thinkers, 725 00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:19,599 is someone that how can I say this that we have to kind of 726 00:58:19,639 --> 00:58:23,239 go through with a certain amount of discernment and wisdom, But definitely is the 727 00:58:23,239 --> 00:58:30,199 basic description of reality is quite is quite powerful. But I would say that 728 00:58:30,239 --> 00:58:32,920 one of the things that I love about the image that I'm showing you is 729 00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:38,239 there is this this aspect that you find, this kinotic aspect that you find 730 00:58:38,239 --> 00:58:43,519 in Christian metaphysics, which I think is also very powerful. This idea of 731 00:58:43,519 --> 00:58:49,079 this empty and the trinitarian language of like the person's emptying themselves into each other 732 00:58:49,159 --> 00:58:54,119 is a very powerful way to avoid the problem of the tyrant, you know, 733 00:58:54,480 --> 00:59:00,119 and of the empire in the negative sense, because sometimes Plato those ideas 734 00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:07,760 can seem to lead to that. You talked about identity as this exclusion of 735 00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:13,480 something and inclusion of something. It's a really interesting way to think about it. 736 00:59:13,519 --> 00:59:17,199 And you mentioned pride as an excess of identity, right, do you 737 00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:23,239 mean excluding more or including more? When you say excess You said you said 738 00:59:23,239 --> 00:59:27,639 that pride is an excess of identity. It is it that inclusion or that 739 00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:31,480 exclusion. It could be It can actually be both. It can be a 740 00:59:31,559 --> 00:59:36,840 desire to make everything the different, the different than unity, and uniformity, 741 00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:39,360 for example, is a good example. It's like unity is not uniformity, 742 00:59:39,679 --> 00:59:45,519 and unity is actually a variation that comes together towards unity. So so pride 743 00:59:45,519 --> 00:59:51,840 can be the desire to make all things uniform in a way that is absolute. 744 00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:55,679 But pride can also be the desire to include things that that you think 745 00:59:55,719 --> 01:00:00,000 you can include, but that you can't. That you thought you could, 746 01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:04,519 but then it rips you apart, you know. So those are so like 747 01:00:04,559 --> 01:00:07,280 you can be prideful and take on too much, right, and you can. 748 01:00:07,519 --> 01:00:12,119 There are different ways, but it can be either. I think I 749 01:00:12,239 --> 01:00:17,880 just had a question about the image there of Christ on the throne, and 750 01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:23,719 I noticed there's two wheels below and his feet, and then there's something that 751 01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:29,280 looks like a rope or a tail. Yeah, yeah, let me find 752 01:00:29,280 --> 01:00:32,719 a bet. Sure now I guess to hell, yeah when it is, 753 01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:36,679 yeah, so this is the image of the Son of Man. One of 754 01:00:36,679 --> 01:00:39,880 the things that's trying to do is to gather in all the images that are 755 01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:44,840 there in the Bible, and so in the Book of Ezekiel there is this 756 01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:52,320 description of the heavenly figure, the heavenly man that descends onto a throne, 757 01:00:53,159 --> 01:00:59,360 a chariot made of angels, okay, and so made of cherubs, and 758 01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:04,719 so that is what you're seeing there. So you see you see the cherubs, 759 01:01:05,960 --> 01:01:08,159 right, these two these angels with four wings, and then you see 760 01:01:08,239 --> 01:01:14,199 these wheels that are described by Dkiel that have eyes all around them, right, 761 01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:16,880 and this is what is being represented by the way. This is also 762 01:01:17,239 --> 01:01:22,679 represented at the ascension. Okay, this one is even clear because you see 763 01:01:22,719 --> 01:01:27,920 the wings have all these eyes on them, and you see the four the 764 01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:31,159 four faces. Right, you see the four figures of the lion, the 765 01:01:31,239 --> 01:01:37,079 man, the eagle, and the ok then you see the wheels. Next 766 01:01:37,119 --> 01:01:38,880 it up and see what if you once you start to see it, you 767 01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:44,840 start to see it everywhere. Right. Here are the four figures. Here 768 01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:47,840 are the wheels. Okay. This is from Egypt. The other one is 769 01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:51,920 from Syria. The other one is from Italy. This is a unit. 770 01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:55,119 It's a kind of universal language. This that's coming from Christ's feet is the 771 01:01:55,199 --> 01:02:00,880 river of fire. It's a river of fire that descends all the way into 772 01:02:01,159 --> 01:02:13,239 into Gehanna. All right, so see it that that river, interestingly enough, 773 01:02:13,559 --> 01:02:16,599 is an image that I insure you but it is interesting in Russian iconography 774 01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:22,679 that river of fire becomes a snake, interestingly enough, and then the snake 775 01:02:23,599 --> 01:02:30,239 he is this, so he bites that the heel of Adam, and then 776 01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:35,559 the snake comes all the way down into hell. But that snake now is 777 01:02:35,639 --> 01:02:38,320 both going up and going down. It's not just going down into hell. 778 01:02:38,639 --> 01:02:43,360 It's like the ladder of ascent at the same time. This idea that there's 779 01:02:43,480 --> 01:02:46,800 motion between between the different aspects, and so as you move up in the 780 01:02:46,880 --> 01:02:51,800 virtues, you're you're moving up the snake, and as you go down with 781 01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:53,519 the vices, then you're going down. It's like snakes and ladders. You 782 01:02:53,559 --> 01:02:58,840 know that came it's like that in those images. How do you know that 783 01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:02,440 it's Peter and Paul in various places Adam and Eve, well, Peter and 784 01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:08,360 Paul. They're easy to recognize that Peter has a white beard and he often 785 01:03:08,360 --> 01:03:12,840 has curly hair. Paul is bald and he's got a long kind of dark 786 01:03:12,880 --> 01:03:17,000 beard, so he's actually easy to recognize. And also because in some versions, 787 01:03:17,039 --> 01:03:22,039 although not in the East, for example, we actually write the names, 788 01:03:22,320 --> 01:03:24,360 so you actually have the names written next to all the characters, so 789 01:03:24,400 --> 01:03:28,480 it's a good way to know that that's the character. But we can still 790 01:03:28,519 --> 01:03:31,000 transpose it into the West, where that tradition of marking the name was not 791 01:03:31,119 --> 01:03:35,639 really maintained. But you can know that that's who it is because in the 792 01:03:35,719 --> 01:03:38,960 older in other versions, it's literally written their name underneath them, underneath them. 793 01:03:39,480 --> 01:03:44,679 When you mentioned that Jesus is the perfect man, and you say that 794 01:03:45,280 --> 01:03:49,440 all of us are tending to him, is he then the man by whom 795 01:03:49,719 --> 01:03:52,400 or by which all men shall be judged, Well, that's what the implication 796 01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:55,960 of the image is, for sure. Clearly the implication of the image is 797 01:03:55,960 --> 01:04:01,679 that that man who who sacri fis himself, is the one that judges all 798 01:04:01,719 --> 01:04:05,400 things, and in some ways can judge all things because he did not take 799 01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:11,320 glory for himself. That that's the that's the difference between just the emperor or 800 01:04:11,360 --> 01:04:15,480 the judge in the simple sense, and this image of the man who has 801 01:04:15,559 --> 01:04:20,079 given himself and therefore is allowed to be the heavenly man. So you said 802 01:04:20,079 --> 01:04:25,599 something about Saint Paul on the on the left hand side or right hand and 803 01:04:26,039 --> 01:04:28,400 it was a little confusing. I don't think you meant to say that he 804 01:04:28,559 --> 01:04:32,119 was with those that go are cast into hell. No, I was trying 805 01:04:32,119 --> 01:04:36,880 to show that the left hand has multiple aspects and it's not just good bad, 806 01:04:38,199 --> 01:04:40,760 right, that that's important because we can tend to think that. And 807 01:04:40,800 --> 01:04:44,679 it's okay in like a basic idea, the way Christ talks about the sheep 808 01:04:44,719 --> 01:04:47,159 and the goats, but in the iconography and in the way that the language 809 01:04:47,159 --> 01:04:51,880 started to develop, then the idea of the left hand of Christ having also 810 01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:58,039 a useful positive side, you know, which is multiplication and division and and 811 01:04:58,519 --> 01:05:02,039 difference that level where you have Peter on the on the right hand and then 812 01:05:02,119 --> 01:05:06,480 Paul on the left. Would that then be like all the saints called with 813 01:05:06,880 --> 01:05:11,360 Jesus to sit in judgments. Right, Okay, that's what it is, 814 01:05:11,400 --> 01:05:15,519 and it is it is this idea, and you know, and it's I 815 01:05:15,519 --> 01:05:18,599 think to me, this is actually a very useful you know, it's it's 816 01:05:18,639 --> 01:05:23,000 a useful way to deal with the problem with Plato for example, right, 817 01:05:23,320 --> 01:05:26,480 because this idea of the forms, you know, it's like, okay, 818 01:05:26,519 --> 01:05:31,039 so where are these forms? You know, they they just exist completely independently 819 01:05:31,320 --> 01:05:36,679 of man. And the Christian answer is no, the Christian answer is they 820 01:05:36,719 --> 01:05:42,920 exist in Him, right, They exist in the one that is this this 821 01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:46,199 is the source of reality. So, so I did get these weird things 822 01:05:46,199 --> 01:05:50,119 in medieval iconography, which is that when they show the creation of the world, 823 01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:55,000 they show Jesus Christ creating the world, which is kind of just okay, 824 01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:57,360 well that's not possible, right because he comes two thousand years later. 825 01:05:57,559 --> 01:06:02,280 But it's really understanding the idea that this is the world of meaning exists through 826 01:06:02,599 --> 01:06:09,800 man, that you don't need to just posit forms outside of consciousness. But 827 01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:14,440 it also doesn't mean that it's idiosyncratic and it's like anything goes, but that 828 01:06:14,440 --> 01:06:20,079 that consciousness is a way by which the world exists. It is in some 829 01:06:20,119 --> 01:06:27,199 ways the filter to which whatever the forms are are main subject to. And 830 01:06:27,239 --> 01:06:30,880 so the idea of so it actually to me it solves a lot of problems, 831 01:06:30,880 --> 01:06:34,159 like metaphysical problems, but also even in terms of science and a lot 832 01:06:34,159 --> 01:06:40,079 of the questions we ask. Now, so the idea that now we all 833 01:06:40,159 --> 01:06:46,360 of us are called to enter into that like we can become principalities, we 834 01:06:46,400 --> 01:06:53,559 can become like the gods of the Greeks. Right, you can become gods 835 01:06:53,559 --> 01:07:00,400 and you will sit in judgment with the heavenly man over reality. It's like 836 01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:03,119 it sounds weird, but it's like it just it's it just means that you 837 01:07:03,199 --> 01:07:08,480 can become a standard right which others live their life. Right. You can 838 01:07:08,519 --> 01:07:13,880 become an image, you can become something a star by which other people judge 839 01:07:13,920 --> 01:07:17,559 their own actions. Right. And that's actually just true. It's just how 840 01:07:17,599 --> 01:07:21,559 it works. It's how humanity functions. Like we have things people that shine 841 01:07:21,639 --> 01:07:27,039 for us, and that become the standard the judge. And so this is 842 01:07:27,280 --> 01:07:30,880 this is a cosmic version of that, which is that you know, in 843 01:07:30,920 --> 01:07:34,159 the end, all of this will be judged by by the heavily man and 844 01:07:34,239 --> 01:07:38,760 his those that he has gathered in with him. You want to think about 845 01:07:38,800 --> 01:07:41,960 it that way. But that's already why we have things like patron saints, 846 01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:45,280 you know, we have all the why we name cities after people, that's 847 01:07:45,280 --> 01:07:47,960 why we name that's women, named roads after people, because they are they 848 01:07:48,039 --> 01:07:54,079 become like principalities that that give identities to things, and we want to live 849 01:07:54,199 --> 01:07:59,559 in their example by remembering them and by giving and by putting their name into 850 01:07:59,719 --> 01:08:03,679 the the landscape. Even I really enjoyed your talk, and I've been enjoying 851 01:08:04,159 --> 01:08:09,800 following you on YouTube and stuff, and I'm kind of curious is there any 852 01:08:09,840 --> 01:08:15,279 good resources or is it possible for to kind of discover a like a unity 853 01:08:15,760 --> 01:08:19,920 from the symbolic way of talking and like the tomistic Aristotelian way of talking, 854 01:08:19,960 --> 01:08:26,199 since Plato has come up twice at Aristotle, is it possible? I mean, 855 01:08:26,800 --> 01:08:29,680 I'm not. It's it's complicated. I'm not. I'm I definitely. 856 01:08:29,680 --> 01:08:32,079 I am an Eastern Orthodox person. I have my line, you know, 857 01:08:32,119 --> 01:08:36,119 and the saints that I love. I don't know Thomas well enough, and 858 01:08:36,119 --> 01:08:40,640 I don't know his work. And I also I'm careful because I know that 859 01:08:40,680 --> 01:08:44,399 Thomas and the Thomas are not the same, and so I don't I try 860 01:08:44,439 --> 01:08:46,439 to be to be careful, but I would I do believe that in some 861 01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:53,640 ways Christianity is a is a synthesis between something like Plato and Aristotle, and 862 01:08:53,680 --> 01:08:56,880 it's very right in the in the image of the incarnation, it kind of 863 01:08:56,920 --> 01:09:01,119 plays that role, and it seems to play itself out in the story itself. 864 01:09:01,199 --> 01:09:05,880 So I'd say probably yes, but I'd be careful myself to talk about 865 01:09:05,880 --> 01:09:11,920 that. Thank you again for such a stirring talk and for guiding us through 866 01:09:12,000 --> 01:09:18,479 this mysterious image. And I was particularly struck by the throne, and that 867 01:09:18,600 --> 01:09:25,760 makes up the cathedral, that is this symbol of the giving of the self 868 01:09:25,920 --> 01:09:30,760 to another. So either we have these these figures becoming as children sitting on 869 01:09:30,800 --> 01:09:36,399 the laps of Mother Mary or Father Abraham, and then we have others becoming 870 01:09:36,800 --> 01:09:44,239 as Father as Mother in giving of their own bodies for the glory of another. 871 01:09:45,560 --> 01:09:51,319 And yet all throughout these images, and all throughout especially religious art and 872 01:09:51,560 --> 01:09:59,399 iconography, we have these male and female symbols that make up the one that 873 01:09:59,479 --> 01:10:06,720 represents and this sublime unity and this ideal. And I'm curious to hear your 874 01:10:06,760 --> 01:10:14,479 thoughts on how we can translate the masculine and feminine symbols as we, as 875 01:10:14,520 --> 01:10:19,880 males and females respectively, try to make sense of our own inner world to 876 01:10:20,119 --> 01:10:27,479 order our own identities, which are of course multiplicities of both. So the 877 01:10:27,840 --> 01:10:31,239 structure, like the basic structure, is there. It's there in Genesis one. 878 01:10:31,439 --> 01:10:34,880 That's how the Bible starts. God makes heaven and earth, and this 879 01:10:35,000 --> 01:10:41,680 heaven and earth, this duality, this original duality, then gets reproduced all 880 01:10:41,680 --> 01:10:46,439 through the Genesis narrative and gets repeated all the way down to then man separating 881 01:10:47,159 --> 01:10:53,560 separated into male and female and so it's like it is basically the structures. 882 01:10:53,600 --> 01:10:56,800 It's just the structure all through the text of Genesis one, and it happens 883 01:10:56,800 --> 01:11:00,000 all through and like you said, in the images that we find, we 884 01:11:00,039 --> 01:11:05,000 find this relationship. I like this Coptic image a lot, right, this 885 01:11:05,119 --> 01:11:12,920 basic structure right of the head or the masculine above in heaven and then the 886 01:11:12,960 --> 01:11:18,239 mother below with the child as the hidden aspect of heaven in the world. 887 01:11:18,359 --> 01:11:21,720 Right, the spark is kind of hidden in things, but also the one 888 01:11:21,720 --> 01:11:27,319 that gathers together, right, that gathers together the multiplicity into herself. You 889 01:11:27,359 --> 01:11:29,680 could say, you know, if you've ever seen this image, it's a 890 01:11:29,680 --> 01:11:32,560 beautiful Catholic image. You see the Virgin in statues and she has her cape 891 01:11:32,640 --> 01:11:35,840 open, and then in the cape you have all these people that are kind 892 01:11:35,840 --> 01:11:40,399 of in her cape. That's a beautiful image of that, of that kind 893 01:11:40,439 --> 01:11:45,880 of gathering. So the first thing to say that's important to say is that 894 01:11:45,920 --> 01:11:49,399 we have to be careful not to reduce a person to their gender. That's 895 01:11:49,520 --> 01:11:53,720 the first thing. That we're all people made in the image of God, 896 01:11:53,840 --> 01:11:57,720 and that we are all called to be to be in the image of Christ 897 01:11:57,800 --> 01:12:00,640 and to be like Christ, and that in Christ there is no male, 898 01:12:00,680 --> 01:12:02,199 there's no female, there's no Greek, there's no Jew. Right that we 899 01:12:02,279 --> 01:12:05,000 have this idea that in the unity, there's a way in which we can 900 01:12:05,039 --> 01:12:09,920 all participate into the story. But there is also a manner in which we 901 01:12:10,079 --> 01:12:14,920 do play those roles in society, because then there we do. Also we 902 01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:19,000 all also are male and female, and that has a reality that we have 903 01:12:19,079 --> 01:12:24,520 to account for. If we pretend like it doesn't exist, then the world 904 01:12:24,600 --> 01:12:29,119 stops to exist. It's actually quite simple. If we pretend that male and 905 01:12:29,119 --> 01:12:32,760 female aren't different, and that they don't have complimentary roles, then there's no 906 01:12:32,880 --> 01:12:39,600 more generation. Basically things, the being ceases. It's pretty It's like, 907 01:12:39,920 --> 01:12:43,800 that's why I describe that way in Genesis one, and that's just how the 908 01:12:43,840 --> 01:12:46,279 world functions, and so we have to take that seriously. But there's also 909 01:12:46,520 --> 01:12:53,000 a way in which we can all play the different roles in different perspectives, 910 01:12:53,479 --> 01:12:56,960 right, And so that's also important to understand, is that there's a manner 911 01:12:57,000 --> 01:13:00,000 in which we are all Let's say, as Christians, I am the bride 912 01:13:00,079 --> 01:13:02,880 of Christ, like we are all the bride of Christ. We all have 913 01:13:02,920 --> 01:13:09,720 a feminine aspect to us in which we we are called to to give ourselves 914 01:13:09,720 --> 01:13:15,119 to higher purposes and to higher things. And there's also a way in which 915 01:13:15,119 --> 01:13:18,359 we all of us, where there's male, female, whatever. Sometimes we 916 01:13:18,399 --> 01:13:24,920 play leadership roles where we have to guide multiplicities towards purposes. And then we 917 01:13:24,960 --> 01:13:30,079 play roles that are masculine, that are heavenly roles in that sense. And 918 01:13:30,159 --> 01:13:34,560 so it's important to understand it fractally and to not ignore the different levels. 919 01:13:35,000 --> 01:13:39,439 That's to me, that's the key is that there are moments in history where 920 01:13:39,439 --> 01:13:45,000 we try to reduce the person to their gender and then everything becomes solidified, 921 01:13:45,199 --> 01:13:47,720 you know, like that. Uh, And there are moments where we do 922 01:13:47,760 --> 01:13:50,920 the opposite. Now we mostly do the opposite, where we just kind of 923 01:13:50,920 --> 01:13:57,319 collapse everything. So I think that the way to understand it and the best 924 01:13:57,319 --> 01:14:00,359 way to participate in it is to see it fractally. Is like, I 925 01:14:00,600 --> 01:14:05,920 play this role in this context, and then there's this an understanding the difference 926 01:14:05,960 --> 01:14:11,840 between that which guides and gives purpose and and and let's say gives direction, 927 01:14:12,319 --> 01:14:17,319 and that which gathers and gives itself up to that purpose. So I one 928 01:14:17,399 --> 01:14:23,199 final question, John that after your masterful explication of this image from the church, 929 01:14:23,199 --> 01:14:28,800 and Torcello actually had the great privilege of going to that church. It's 930 01:14:28,880 --> 01:14:31,239 just in the sort of it was the beginning really of the of the of 931 01:14:31,239 --> 01:14:34,560 what we now call Venice. But they moved to what we now see is 932 01:14:34,600 --> 01:14:38,760 the main town. Uh so you've got to take a boat to get over 933 01:14:38,800 --> 01:14:43,000 there. And I had the great privilege of seeing this image and it was 934 01:14:43,159 --> 01:14:45,199 very moving to me. But I have to I have to be honest. 935 01:14:45,239 --> 01:14:48,680 When I was looking at this, I couldn't see a tenth of the things 936 01:14:48,680 --> 01:14:54,159 that you have actually explicated for us. I don't have the knowledge of symbolism 937 01:14:54,159 --> 01:14:57,880 of I called it iconography and so on. Uh. And so the question 938 01:14:57,920 --> 01:15:00,880 I want to ask you is really, how do you learn to read? 939 01:15:01,439 --> 01:15:03,520 And I mean, of course, you know, how do you learn to 940 01:15:03,520 --> 01:15:08,439 get better at reading images? Our students are reading some very difficult books. 941 01:15:08,640 --> 01:15:13,840 We're hoping to teach them something about how to read difficult literature and philosophy. 942 01:15:14,520 --> 01:15:18,000 But that's not just a skill for this, but it's in a way a 943 01:15:18,039 --> 01:15:24,720 way of learning to read reality. Analogy is the key in my perception is 944 01:15:24,720 --> 01:15:30,079 that when you're interpreting images, for example, it's very dangerous to get caught 945 01:15:30,199 --> 01:15:34,359 into the one image because one of the things that happens in language and in 946 01:15:35,119 --> 01:15:41,079 iconography, for example, is that the images exist together, right. They 947 01:15:41,159 --> 01:15:45,680 rhyme, they're like, they're kind of kind of a massive poetry. And 948 01:15:45,760 --> 01:15:50,439 so if you can be able to look across from the different things that you're 949 01:15:50,520 --> 01:15:55,399 learning, then you start to see the rhyming. And once you start to 950 01:15:55,399 --> 01:15:58,640 see the rhyming, then first of all, there's a joy like just in 951 01:15:58,760 --> 01:16:01,399 just kind of playing into that rhyme. But then there's also a kind of 952 01:16:01,399 --> 01:16:06,199 coherence that appears that is wonderful because all of a sudden you have the capacity 953 01:16:06,239 --> 01:16:12,000 to read something that you've never seen before because you know the patterns so well. 954 01:16:12,560 --> 01:16:15,880 You know that this is how this is. These are the basic patterns 955 01:16:15,920 --> 01:16:18,760 of of Christian iconography, for example. And so often I can see an 956 01:16:18,800 --> 01:16:21,359 image that I've never seen in my life, and I know what it is 957 01:16:21,399 --> 01:16:26,239 because I just know that if that image were represented, it would have to 958 01:16:26,279 --> 01:16:30,479 have these elements in this in this structure, and if like if there's something 959 01:16:30,520 --> 01:16:33,640 above or there's something below, you know, how are they interacting? What 960 01:16:33,640 --> 01:16:38,159 what are what type of relationship you can see, and so I would say 961 01:16:38,159 --> 01:16:42,319 that that can be true, you know, for image interpretation, but it 962 01:16:42,319 --> 01:16:45,720 also has to be true for culture in general. This is also one of 963 01:16:45,760 --> 01:16:47,840 the things that I think ralson what's doing is amazing, is that you need 964 01:16:48,079 --> 01:16:53,680 a certain breath to some extent. These are a lot of the stories, 965 01:16:53,720 --> 01:16:56,680 that's say, the ancient nests or the Bible stories or the fairy tales. 966 01:16:56,960 --> 01:17:00,720 They used to be so part of people's lives that everybody just them, didn't 967 01:17:00,720 --> 01:17:02,640 even remember how they knew them, they just did. But now we have 968 01:17:02,680 --> 01:17:09,119 to be more deliberate about it because we're so assaulted with all kinds of insane, 969 01:17:09,359 --> 01:17:13,000 you know, ridiculous stories that are trying to get our attention that we 970 01:17:13,079 --> 01:17:15,600 have to be more deliberate about, you know, going back into the ancient 971 01:17:15,640 --> 01:17:18,560 text, going back into the myths, into the into the stories, and 972 01:17:18,600 --> 01:17:25,880 then starting to look across and to see the patterns and how they they relate 973 01:17:25,920 --> 01:17:28,840 to each other. So that's at least that's the way that I read. 974 01:17:29,039 --> 01:17:30,760 Well, I know I'm speaking for many of us. What I thank you, 975 01:17:30,840 --> 01:17:35,359 Jonathan for the ways that you open up those patterns, open up the 976 01:17:35,439 --> 01:17:41,079 horizon, open up our understanding both here tonight and in your work on your 977 01:17:41,119 --> 01:17:44,840 podcast and beyond. Join me in thanking Jonathan for a wonderful day.