Welcome to episode seventy three of Get Out Alive. I am your host,
Ashley, and today I am joined by a friend who has accompanied me on
the last few bonus episodes, Margie. Hello. Margie has designed a few
things on our online store, including these save the Bee sticker and all of
our Orca merge. Yes, so check it out, Get a Live podcast,
dot Com, slash shop. I'll link your Etsy in our subscription if
you want sure if that's like the best place to find you, I guess
yeah, We're like my Instagram. Hey, miss Margie. Speaking of names,
we have a new patron to shout out remember okay the music. Thank
you so much to Erin for joining our experts Survivalist here and Erin, along
with all the other experts, can be on the lookout for your most recent
gifts in the coming week, which Margie will also help you package. So
a little loving touch for Marty and once I'm sure that everyone's gotten there is,
I will talk a little bit more about them. But to get into
today's episode, this one has been a super long time coming, and I've
talked about doing different iterations of this episode for the past year. So the
episode we're doing today will be all about owning exotic animals as pets and what
happens when owning them goes wrong. And then the next episode on our main
feed will be with another guest that we've talked to before, Sophien from our
Bat episode, and we'll take a deep dive into a specific organization, if
you could call it that, that is pretty popular in social media, and
Sophia has done so much work into like looking into them, so it'll give
us all a bit more insight into how dark the world of owning dangerous animals
really is. First, before we talk about attack, I want to give
like a little bit more context to this topic. So you may all remember
the Netflix series Tiger King, Margie, did you watch it? I watched
the first episode and I could not emotionally. My mpath cup was so full
and I was like, no, can't I get it? I can't.
Yeah, And you know what, I feel like the first episode was the
most important in terms of like their messaging, because it really derailed and like
I think we've talked about Tiger King on this podcast before, but my huge
gripe with that show was that it really got away from the main purpose,
which was to inform people about how dark exotic animal ownership is, especially big
cat ownership, and it just became about like Joe Exotic trying to kill Carol
Baskin, which was weird. But one good thing did come from that series,
which is actually the piece of legislation that Carol Baskin was always talking about,
the Big Cat Public Safety Act, and it actually was enacted in December
of twenty twenty two. So according to the federal US Fish and Wildlife Service
quote, the Big Cat Public Safety Act was enacted December twentieth, twenty twenty
two, to end the private ownership of big CATS's pets and prohibit exhibitors from
allowing public contact with big cats, including cups. It placed new restrictions on
the commerce, breeding, possession, and use of certain big cat species.
In order to continue to legally possess privately owned big cats, the Act required
individuals or entities to register any big cats that were in their possession before the
date of enactment with the US Fish and Wildlife Service, unless another exception of
the Act applies. This registration had to occur no later than June eighteenth,
twenty twenty three, which is one hundred and eighty days after the date of
enactment, which is now past, so registration is closed. The Big Cat
Public Safety Act refers to big cats as quote prohibited wildlife species. The prohibited
wildlife species listed in the Act include the following species and hybrids of any of
these species. Lion, which is Panthera leo so the scientific name tiger Panthera
tigris, leopard Panthera pardis, snow leopard unsea unsea was fun clouded leopard Neophilis
nebulosa, jaguar panthero Onka cheetah whoa, I've never seen si putting for a
cheetah before, asinomics jew badis sure looks like it and cougar puma con color
nice easy. The Act makes it unlawful for any person to import, export,
transport, cell, receive, acquire, or purchase in interstate or foreign
commerce, or in a manner substantially affecting interstate or foreign commerce, or breed
or possess any live prohibited wildlife species. The Act also makes it unlawful for
any person to attempt to commit any of these acts with prohibited wildlife species.
And I've been learning a lot about state versus federal laws and like how they
apply to wildlife, because I'm in like a class for my master's degree for
like wildlife law and policy. And how the federal government can step in in
terms of wildlife is through the Commerce Clause, which is like part of the
Constitution. So that's why they're able to make this law and like prohibit the
trade and whatever the species because it affects commerce. Whereas typically in the United
States, life is held in the public trust and the state is the trustee
essentially who is like managing wildlife for the benefit of everybody. So normally the
state's quote unquote own wildlife, but the federal government can step in when it
affects the larger country as a whole. There's plenty more that goes into that
act, and I'll link to the US Fish Wildlife Service page that explains more
for anyone that would like to read it. But this was a huge deal
in terms of getting the big cat ownership in the US more under control,
because, as many of you know, there are over five thousand captive tigers
in the United States alone, which is more than the three nine hundred tigers
that exist in the wild of all of the species of tiger, which is
deeply upsetting. And most of the captive tigers in the US live in private
facilities or roadside attractions, and only an estimated six percent of those tigers live
in zoos or other facilities licensed by the AZA, which we've talked about before
on this podcast. And although many organizations may claim that they're breeding or keeping
these tigers for quote conservation, none of these tigers would be able to survive
in the wild, and many of the people that breed them are also not
geneticists, so inbreeding can be a huge problem. Another reason that they couldn't
be released into the wild, not to mention there's not a whole lot of
wild to put them back into. And I'd also be or miss if I
didn't point out that this problem isn't unique to the US, because there are
a staggering seven thousand to eight thousand tigers reportedly held in a large number of
facilities throughout East and Southeast Asia, most notably in China, Thailand, and
Vietnam, and they're often referred to as quote tiger farms, and they definitely
like fund the illegal wildlife trade through pumping out those tigers. This episode is
a bummer yeah, it's the biggest sigh. Yeah. But in this episode,
we're not just talking about big cats. We're also talking about venomous snakes,
bears, the over fifteen thousand primates kept as pets in the US alone,
and a whole slew of other animals that, for some reason, people
thought would be a good idea to keep as pets. But I am just
me and Margie. We're just gonna be talking about the US for the rest
of the episode because otherwise we would have to spend so much time looking at
the laws specific to other countries. Yeah, and the US laws are already
hard enough to understand, but those are the ones that were the most familiar
with, so we're going to stick to that. So, speaking of my
class that I'm in for my master's degree, a few weeks back, I
had to read a paper on this topic that we're talking about today, and
for the paper, I had to watch a documentary called The Elephant in the
living Room, which I will link in the episode description because you can watch
it for free online. And Margie popped into my house halfway through me watching
it. I think I was you said, yeah, and if you want
to watch it, just like a huge trigger warning. It is incredibly disturbing
and there's a lot of animal suffering and death within it. So Margie and
I have trauma bonded, which is partly what you're here today, so we
could talk through it. But the documentary focus is mostly on Ohio, which
at the time of filming around twenty eleven, had a shocking amount of exotic
pet ownership issues. For example, the film started with a loose gaboon viper,
one of the most venomous snakes in the world, native to Africa,
and there were two little kids that had been holding it and playing with it
all morning as it was in their garage, so it wasn't even their pet.
It just ended up in their garage and they had no idea that it
was venomous, so they were like putting it around their necks, running around
with it. Yeah I missed that part. Yeah, which is probably for
the best. I mean, sure, yeah, but I mean, to
be fair, the snake didn't bite them, which is great. Great,
that is great. You know, not that I think anyone should have them
as pets, but like, they don't always have to kill people, right,
So yeah, wait, who walked in like a parent or who was
like, guys, this I think a parent called for help. It was
like, oh, there's a snake, but I don't think they realized it
was venomous because they let their kids play with it. So when the protagonist
of the film, Tim Harrison, I would love to talk to him someday.
He is a public safety officer in Ohio, so he was the one
who had to respond to a lot of these issues with exotic pets getting loose
and stuff in Ohio. So he went there and he was like, Yeah,
this is a goo boon bite bird. This is like incredibly venomous,
and the family was like, oh oops, wow. Yeah, so those
kids are very lucky that it did not bite them because also I can't imagine
there's a lot of gaboon viper anti venom in Ohio. Probably not. Yeah.
So the guy I just mentioned, Tim Harrison, who was the protagonist
in the documentary, he said he saw a massive spike in ownership of exotic
animals after people like Steve Irwin came on TV. And I would like to
put in a disclaimer because my family were some of these people once. I
don't know if I've told you this story, your family was too, Yes,
okay, we were Animal Planet people. Well like Irwin Family people as
well. Oh I yes, we loved Steve Irwin, but we also had
these pets that you shouldn't have had. Oh no, we just really like
watching anything animal related. Oh sorry, that's no, I'm sorry. Well
that's good. Yeah, we had an alligator and yeah, I know so
if you listen to this podcast for a while, you may already know that.
And I will say, at the time it was legal, there was
like this shop in New Hampshire where you could go and buy an alligator and
once it got too big, could return it and they would give you another
baby. I have no idea what happened to bigger ones. They probably sold
like now that I know more, and they probably sold it to like a
farm to kill them or whatever. Wow. Yeah, But as we owned
our alligator and as he was growing up, it became illegal, so then
that store went bye bye. So we had nowhere to put our alligator.
Oh no, yeah, So anyways, now he lives at a refuge owned
by Jeff Coran, who's a biologist. Yes, yeah, yeah, we
watched his shows all the time. Yeah, I love Jeff Coryn. We
didn't put it it was a whole story. I won't get into it on
this podcast, but anyways, he's there now, he's probably still alive,
which is cool. But I also have no stats for this statement of like,
it's actually true that more people owned exotic animals post Steve Irwin coming on
the scene. But also if this guy was like the boots on the ground,
I believe him if he saw an uptake after Steve Irwin popped up so
and then also if you've listened to episod SO thirty seven of this podcast,
we talk about a very infamous case of all of this happening from Ohio,
which was the Zanesville massacre, and I won't spoil it if you haven't heard
it before, but if you know, you know. And another great exotic
pet ownership gone wrong story that we covered in this podcast is episode fourteen Travis
the Chimpanzee, which is another horrifying one. So I don't know why,
but these exotic pet ownership attacks always seem like really especially brutal. Yeah,
which I guess makes sense because it's probably in your house. So now,
as the filming of that documentary in twenty eleven, there are thirty states in
the US that allowed the ownership of predatory exotic pets, and in nine of
those states you did not need a permit or a license to do so as
of twenty twenty four, according to the Michigan State University Animal Legal and Historical
Center website, which I will link to the episode description because it is a
great resource. Now, there are thirteen states that have a partial ban on
exotic pets, which means that these states ban specific listed animals statute, but
not all non traditional, non domestic animals. For example, these states may
allow ownership of like small primates, which still isn't great. And then fourteen
states permit private ownership of exotic animals under a licensure or permit scheme, so
people seeking licenses may have to register with the state, prove satisfactory conditions for
keeping the animal, and pay a fee, and maintain liability insurance, which
I guess, like of all the things, better than nothing better than the
three states who do not have a statutory or regulatory scheme that directly addresses or
controls the private ownership of exotic pets, but may regulate some aspect of ownership,
like these states may require health certificates or import permits for some animals,
and these states are do you know them? No? Do you want to
guess who's on this list? Who allows the crazy stuff? Allows the crazy
stuff? I'm trying to remember because I also looked at the map. Mississippi
no. Don't know why I had to sing that, Florida no, no,
which is surprising. I feel like the other obvious one to me that
I guessed was Texas. Oh yes, but Texas was not on that list.
Pennsylvania No, Okay, it's okay, it's actually Nevada, Alabama,
and North Carolina, which I didn't expect. Okay, does that make sense
to the North Carolina and Alabama do for some reason? Really, I don't
know why, because I found for some reason there was like some upticks on
like ownership in North Carolina for some reason weird. I don't know what's going
on there. I guess it's like primo environment landscape, if that makes sense.
Oh, just for like a lot of different stuff. Yes, that's
how I feel about Texas, Like I feel like Texas a lot of weird
stuff that shouldn't be in the US could live there, like lions and whatever.
But anyways, now let's get into what you all came here for,
which is the attacks? So I'm going to start with Stephan Miller and Rocky
from two thousand and eight. So I first heard of the story while watching
that documentary that I mentioned earlier. And this story took place in April of
two thousand and eight in Big Bear Lake, California. So Stephan Miller was
an American animal trainer, wrangler, and stunt double, and he would sometimes
work for Predators in Action, which was an animal training facility owned and operated
by his cousin, Randy Miller. And this is a really interesting organization for
us to talk about in this podcast because their whole purpose was to literally stage
animal attacks, often for films or television shows, including that GEO and Discovery,
and Randy provided some quote training for Chris Pratt for Jurassic World, Okay,
which I'm like, what qualifies you to say how you would wrangle a
velociraptor. He's thought it through. I mean, I guess if there's like
ostriches, that's gonna be close, right. Yeah, Oh my god,
this is still relevant. Margie and I just did a bonus episode last week
on prehistoric animals, so checked that out on their Patreon. It's very good.
So to go more into Randy the cousin for a second. So Stephan's
cousin, although he's now retired in their organization, no longer provides animals for
entertainment purposes, which is great. Randy, originally from Texas, kind of
hit it big when he was a teenager because he and his dad opened a
soda seltzer company in the nineteen eighties, okay, and it became super successful,
which gave Randy the funds to buy and race drag cars and also buy
exotic cats such as lions and tigers, some of which he kept in glass
cages in the middle of his house in Hollywood. Wait, like the exotic
cats in a glass case he kept like lions in the like as if it
was like our snake, my pet snake showing you earlier where he's like,
you know, in a tank. At least his tank like has stuff and
he's supposed to be a tank like that. But yeah, it was essentially
like just like a focal piece in his home, a glass case with a
tiger and a lion in it, A live two live animals, yes,
in a glass case in his house. That's it. Okay, because have
you ever seen movies where people have those? I can't think of one off
the top of my head. The only thing I'm thinking of as a contemporary
artist who did that but with dead animals? Oh, he like submerged a
shark in resin. I think I cannot think of his name. Okay,
but that's kind of cool. It is cool, but it's like it's massive
because it's a great white shark in resin. If that's legal, that's pretty
cool. That's a good point. I don't know. I mean this,
My first thought was like, how are they getting oxygen? How do you
let them out? How do you get them in there? Do they have
any how do you feed them? Yeah? Because yeah, there's just so
many logistical questions. I'm like, why would you want that? And then
like you just walk by a lion like that's so awful. So anyways,
that's what he did, and he would even bring his tigers into their soda
business's office. But don't worry because he said, quote, we didn't turn
them loose. I was really careful about it. All right. It's a
long story short. Eventually the soda seltzer business went bankrupt, so Randy started
this predators in action business, and he claimed, quote, the staged attacks
come from bonding and playing with these animals as they grow up. Great.
So Randy made a name for himself in the animal attack business in Hollywood,
and his first big break was in two thousand when he was a stunt double
for Russell Crowe in the Gladiator tiger attack scene. Have you seen Gladiator?
No? Okay me, I don't know what this is referring to. But
it was a live tiger apparently, and Randy was getting it makes sense a
scene in which he was only wearing leather armor like fake leather armor ye for
the doubling of Russell Crowe, and the tiger bit right through it and created
a hole in his arm, which he just bandaged up quickly and then went
back for another take because he was like, I have to keep getting in
there and can't like let this drag me down. You know what you mean.
If I'm going to be in this business, I have to roll with
being bitten through my bicep by a tiger. Yep. So then in two
thousand and eight, Randy stood in for Will Ferrell in the movie Semi Pro
and his Syrian brown bear Rocky starred as the bear in that movie Rocky in
that scene which I watched, the scene, it's very silly, okay,
But in the scene Rocky went the bear, went for the wig that Randy
was wearing and ended up grabbing Randy's head in his mouth and threw him around
for about a minute. Oh, but Randy survived, got cleaned up,
and took another take of the scene. It's back to Stephan also known as
Stevie, but I will call him Stephan because I feel like Stevie's like a
little too intimate. I don't I didn't know him, so anyways. Stefan
worked for Predators in Action for several years before he pursued other business ventures.
But he took part in raising some of the animals with his cousin, including
one brown bear named Dakota, who was related to the bear Rocky that I
just mentioned. And I couldn't find much else out about Stefan, but on
April twenty second, two thousand and eight, he was helping his cousin Randy,
shoot a promotional video with Rocky the bear, and for context, Rocky
was seven and a half feet tall when standing and seven hundred pounds at this
time and five years old, similar to our last episode with Timothy Treadwell.
And because this is a promotional video, there is a recording of the events
I am about to talk about, and I watched it and I had Margie
watch it before we started recording so we could both get the context for this
story. But basically what happens is Stefan is standing calmly in the middle of
a cage with Rocky walking around him, and then a piece of food is
thrown beside Stefan. I'm assuming to get Rocky in place for the video,
and then Rocky ate the piece of food, stood up on his hind legs
and I'm assuming received a cue from his trainer because he then turned licked Stephan's
face, but then bit Stefan on the neck. The bear held onto Stephan's
neck him to the ground and everyone began immediately shouting and running over and Randy,
who was standing nearby, hit Rocky with a cane to try to stop
him, but Rocky did not release, and if anything, this made it
worse because he began shaking Stuffan and when Randy leaned down to try to access
Rocky's mouth, he was easily tossed away by the bear's head shaking. Two
people deployed bear spray, which is what finally made Rocky release Stephan and Stephan
can be seen stumbling away at a frame and Rocky began kind of like scratching
and stomping at the ground after being sprayed. And what follows is a nine
to one one call of the attack, which has been released. So I
will read a bit of the transcript here for you. So it starts with
nine to one one, is he doing okay? And this is like towards
the end of the phone call Jeff, because nine one one told them to
do CPR to try to help him, okay. And then there's a woman
who's the primary one on the phone. So nine one one says, is
he doing okay? The woman says, no, nine one one, okay,
woman, he's really still nine on one okay, woman, he still
has not regained consciousness. Nine on one, okay. As long as he's
breathing. We want to make sure he's breathing. Woman, still breathing nine
one one okay. Good. You guys are doing good. I need you
to stay calm woman, he's not breathing anymore. The operator then tells them
to give a rescue breath as part of the CPR, and this is followed
by an unidentified man who has later been assumed to be Randy in the background
saying he just died, and the woman on the phone saying, come on,
Stevie, hold on, and then the man says, I've got you,
Stefan. But Stepan ultimately died because his jugular vein had been pierced,
and he died within minutes of the incident. So when you watch that video,
it's kind of like not clear where the bear is biting him and what
really happens, and it's not graphic per se in terms of like gore as
you saw, Margie, And when Stephan stumbles away, you're like, oh,
okay, like he might have gotten out of that, but he like
soon collapsed after that mean recording that shake that the bear did, Yeah,
that was bad. Yeah. So I've seen some sources claim that Randy said
that this was playful behavior and an accident, And I've seen some sources say
that Rocky just went for the fake attack too quickly and caught Steffan off guard.
I'm certainly not a bear expert. I can't say what is playing and
what is a bear attacking somewhat aggressively. I'm inclined to believe someone like Randy,
but also I think this is it's hard because he's obviously biased, right,
because he doesn't want his bear to be hurt, right, But it
also killed his cousin, who he'd loved very much. Yeah, So,
as you can imagine, Randy was very torn up after this and was diagnosed
with PTSD and took a few months off of work. Stephan left behind a
wife and two children. As for Rocky, following the incident, his permits
to work in the state were put on hold. There was some discourse initially
as to whether or not Rocky should be euthanized, and it was also confusing
to determine who actually had authority because this was a privately owned animal. So
the California Department of Fishing Game was hesitant to make a decision because they were
like, this isn't technically wildlife. And also the USDA's Animal and Plant Health
Inspection Service also known as APHIS we've talked about before. They're typically in charge
of inspecting facilities like this one, and they said that there had been no
non compliances in the past, but ultimately Fishing Game was in charge of the
permitting for animals essentially like quote unquote working in performing in the state. So
in the end, they ruled Stephan's death an accident and said that Rocky did
not have to be euthanized. Okay, so Randy claimed that Rocky was safe
to be around people and that Stepan would have wanted him to continue working,
which I think is a slippery slope to like assume what dead people would want
after being killed by an animal, but just me. And then the USDA
even cleared Rocky for work, but because California houses most of the film industry,
that was really the best state for Rocky to like get work in,
so they couldn't really take him anywhere else. And ultimately, after a twenty
twelve hearing, the Fishing Game Department in California decided not to lift the restrictions
against Rocky, therefore stopping him from working in the state ever again. So
in the end, in twenty twenty two, so really recently, Rocky was
moved to the Lions, Tigers and Bears Facility, an exotic animal rescue in
Alpine, California, which is like a kind of retirement for him. So
he's still alive as of today, and because bears in captivity can live up
to thirty years, he's still got plenty of years left in him. Wow.
So obviously not a happy ending for well, I don't know if it's
a happy ending for Rocky that he's not like having to perform anymore for a
living. But rough, rough going back really quickly, because I somehow,
very quickly just forgot that was that the same cue that he was taught how
to do with a Will Ferrell movie. I don't know. Oh, okay,
yeah, I don't know anything about it was hard to find information on
this. I'm not sure if it's just because it happened in two thousand and
eight, you know what I mean? Yeah, but yeah, I don't
know what the cues were, but what Randy was saying where or like what
some people were saying that he attacked Stephan too soon. They were saying Stephan
was supposed to put an arm up to block the bear's mouth, and I
think the bear was supposed to bite his arm, but then it ended up
biting his neck, so which I don't know how well you can really train
a bear to do anything, but I don't know. I feel like that's
also multiple articles I read because I have a bear as well. People were
like, you cannot domesticate bears, but well, it's clearly like trained bears.
Geah, it's hard, right because there's obviously you can train an animal
like a tiger or a bear, but like how much can you really train
them and how much can you stop them from just like at what point does
it become straight up attacking? And when is it just like a thing that
they're they've been trained to do? You know what I mean? Like,
I think it's such a slippery slope and the lines are so blurred. We
have CGI now, I just like, and I think that was something that
Randy had said a reason he retired. He was like, there's not a
lot of work for people like manymore because CGI exists, which I'm like,
good, sorry, But at the hot take, I don't think we should
be using live animals in performances. Yeah, that's just me. That's a
good hot take. Thank you so much. Margie hit us with your bear
story. Ooh, all right, so my bear is appropriately named Teddy.
Such a lame sorry to whoever owned the bear, but like, come on,
you know what I mean, Xavier, It's like naming your cat kitten.
Anyways. That's I once house that for people and their cat was named
Kitty. Yeah, it's like yeah anyways. Anyways, So Teddy. On
Sunday night in October two thousand and nine, thirty seven year old Kelly and
Walls went to go attend to her black bear, Teddy. Walls lived in
a rural area northeast of Allentown, Pennsylvania. Teddy was a nine year old,
three hundred and fifty pound black bear that Kelly had kept and raised since
a cub. So the living situation for this bear really reminds me of the
situation with the lion in that documentary. So that evening, whilst went to
Tendy's fifteen by fifteen foot steal in concrete cage, and according to their neighbor,
Scott cast In, this was a daily routine where she would throw shovelfuls
of dog food to the other side of the cage to distract and feed the
bear so that she could clean the other side. And like, yeah,
I've got a hope that there's like bedding, you know what I mean,
because like just on the concrete if you guys watched that documentary you mentioned,
like it is awful. The lions and that documentary were just kept on concrete
and there was just like poop. Ever, like it was just And also
no, I don't want to spoil what happened to the lions, but just
all metal and concrete is not a safe living situation anyways. No, no,
And also dog food. Yeah, I mean to be fair, I
have cared for black bears before, and they did eat dog food. Oh
okay, yeah, I mean they ate other things like fresh fruits and veggies
and whatever, but they did eat some dog food. Gotcha. I also
feed turtles that eat dog food. They soaked kibble. Is that weird?
So many things eat dog food I mean nutritious, I guess. So.
Anyways, so she went to go feed the bear, putting food on the
other side of the cage, and unfortunately Teddy turned on her and attack.
Now I think it's important to note here. Yes, so you said that
she threw dog food on the other side of the cage. Yes, so
she couldn't block like there was no separation. No, it was just like
she's in there with him, cleaning as fast as she can as he eats
yep, awesome, fifteen by fifteen foot cage, no barrier whatsoever, right
except for a shitload of dog food and a shovel. So unfortunately, Waltz's
two children and Caston's children saw the attack, They went and called Scott for
help. Scott told the kids to get inside and then yelled at Teddy to
get him off of Kelly. Teddy then turned towards him. Scott then shot
and killed the bear with a handgun. Because rural Pennsylvania, Scott went to
go and comfort unconscious Kelly Anne, and she was later pronounced dead at the
scene. Do you know, like what exactly killed her? I mean,
I think he just mauled her. Yeah, yeah, I guess that's all
you really need it just yeah, yeah, yeah. There wasn't much as
to like how he attacked her. Yeah, which makes sense that there was
children witnessing it and Scott came after. Yeah. Yeah, God, those
poor fucking kids. Yeah. Okay, So afterwards, Casten said, when
they told me what was happening his kids, I at first thought that it
was a wild bear, since we have them in the area. I never
would have thought it was Kelly Anne's own bear. Kelly Anne's husband, Michael,
had long standing permits to keep, sell, and display exotic animals.
He was listed with the state as president of World of Reptiles ink. So
was this like he had like his own company and then named himself the president
of it? Yess so interesting? Okay, Yeah, there wasn't much on
his like permit, just that says business name. Okay, So it seems
like the Walls has never sold any animals and just kept them as pets.
At one time on their eight acres of property, they owned an African lion,
a cougar, a jaguar, a tiger, a leopard, a range
of reptiles because it's the reptile king, two serviles, and along with Teddy
the black bear, multiple articles also looped in their old English bulldogs, which
I personally don't think count but all right exotic. Yes, At the time
of this incident, only the tiger and the Mountain lion remained. Multiple people
like neighbors in law enforcement noted that the other animals had passed away due to
old age. Eight acres is also not a lot like I'm assuming, like
did they cycle through these big cats or like, did they have all of
them at once at one time? That's not a lot of space. Eight
acres is not a lot for that many. It also looked from one news
article they had an aerial shot of the property and that enclosure for what it
looked like for all the animals tod not look at all to be eight acres
at all, so it seemed to be similar like fifteen by fifteen foot enclosures
for the other animals as well. It's a shame all, just like on
this patch of land. So anyways, not great, no, so from
a Seattle Times article, according to their neighbor, Marshall Eldridge, he used
to worry about the animals escaping when his now grown children were still living at
home, but he said the cages were sturdy. They were good people.
They just had a strange hobby. He said. Well, I mean also
like cool. The cages can be as sturdy as you want. But if
you don't have dividers to keep them away from people, then it doesn't matter.
Yeah, so its my two cents. Yeah. So Caston who killed
Teddy, said the animals were safely locked in their pens and that he had
even fed popcorn to the bear on a cave. One article noted that with
parents' permission, Kelly would let some of the neighbor's children care for the animals
and clean the outdoor tases. Sane to me. Yeah, So remember how
I said that Michael had long standing permits to keep, sell, and display
exotic animals, so his permits had expired the year before in June of two
thousand and eight. A lapse permit is considered a summary violation, like a
traffic ticket, and would not result in the removal of animals. The most
recent state inspection, which was done in two thousand and seven of their property,
did not turn up any red flags and no problems were found when the
investigation was held after the attack. So I don't know if you knew this,
but Pennsylvania ranks second for exotic animal faytale. That is shocking to me.
I really would have guessed like Florida and Texas would be the top two.
Well, Florida's number one with sixteen fatalities and Pennsylvania's eight, and Texas
is seven. And this is from numbers between nineteen ninety and twenty twenty two,
specifically with exotic animal attacks and fatalities and injuries. Yes, ok,
not including injuries at all. There's a whole other spec for that a lot.
Ye specifically just Texas. Texas had like categories for every single animal.
Wow, like captivity animals, wild animals, wild animals that were invasive exotics
Texas like even like be and hornet stings that were fatal Ye Texas. Yeah,
keeping track, someone's got yeah, gotta have a record. Currently,
Pennsylvania has more than one hundred wildlife permits. This number has dropped greatly in
last in the recent years due to more regulations, with new applicants needing to
have two years of experience handling wild animals and also obtain a letter of approval
from their local government before they can be considered. But previous holders like walls
are not held to the same standard and do not need to be reevaluated.
Yeah, that's unacceptable to me. Yeah. So it is highly advised against
from owning a pet bear since they cannot be domesticated similarly to like a dog.
There are handful estates, mostly in the Midwest, Texas and Pennsylvania,
that allow you to own a bear if you have a permit. So,
like with all the animals I looked up for this, I did a little
test of how easy can I get this. I love that you did that.
And I was able to find a website that specifically sold black bear cubs
based in Vermont, so right over the border in Rutland. You don't deserve
that, but I mean, and these cubs ranged between six thousand and six
thousand and eight thousand dollars and they were even having a sale on older cubs.
The cub profiles read like petfinder profiles, noting certain personalities as safe with
other humans, bears and has shown aggression towards dogs and other animals. They
offered grooming and training, so the language that was used to describe the bears,
the staff, and their mission statement very much made me question all of
this and to see if it was actually real with slogans like all bears must
go, It's a bear blowout, special pricing through the rest of the month,
which this was fake. This was one hundred percent fake. And ashually
saw my rise and fall of emotions through Snapchat because I was so upset,
and then I was like, I am more upset because this is a joke.
I was duped, I was jooped. But I did my research and
it was fake. It actually was Vermont Fishing Games April Fool's joke from twenty
nineteen, and the site is still active. It's called buybears dot org.
But a little bit more digging and I did find a site that at the
moment wasn't selling black bear cubs, but they requested that you fill out an
email for requesting them. This site gave me the absolute creeps, as it
felt like an exotic animal Craigslist. You could list animals for sale, submit
requests to post for certain animals, and an option to even auction off animals.
It's so gross. An alternative, you can just sponsor a bear through
Alaska Wildlife Conservation Center and happy tax season. It's a tax right off as
well. Yeah, I love that you mentioned that because another thing you can
do too, which I thought about doing, is a gift for this podcast,
but it would be very expensive and complicated. Would be like you can
sponsor animals at zoos as well. So like, one gift that I got
as a child that I really loved was for Christmas one year, I think
it was my mom sponsored a little blue penguin for me at the New England
Aquarium. So I got like a picture a rite up and I went to
the aquarium and was like, there's my penguin, even though there was no
way I could tell what penguin they all looked the same. But it was
still great because I felt like it was kind of mine, which is a
great alternative instead of owning a penguin or a fucking bear, to just like
sponsor one where they belong or are housed by people who know what they're doing
and are accredited. So do you remember the penguin's name. I think it
was just a little blue Yeah, I know it was. I mean it
was a very cute little penguin and I got like a little stuffed animal out
of it. It was great. So, you know, if you have
like an eight year old or six or whatever, I don't know what age
kids are when they want stuff, that's unreasonable. But if your kids like,
eh, I want to pitt manity, just sponsor one and be like,
there it is and it lives here, you can visit it instead of
having an own one. Yeah. Yea being a glass container in the middle.
Imagine having amanity that in the middle of your house is so gross.
Yes, it's true. A lot they do. Anyways, Thank you for
that, Margie, You're welcome We're going to move on to my final story,
which is about a man named Austin Riley, and my fiance was the
first one to show me the story, and I know another one of you
listeners sent it to me. I cannot, for the life me fine who
it was. So thank you to whoever sent me the story. This story
took place in Bernie, Texas, with Austin Riley, who is a thirty
year old who lived on an one hundred and thirty acre ranch there. Unfortunately,
Austin had come close to dying many times in his life. Before his
first birthday, the doctors found a large tumor growing inside his skull, leading
him to spend most of his childhood and hospitals undergoing multiple high risk brain surgeries,
one of which left him partially paralyzed on his left side because it was
a quote botched surgery wow. Because of his condition, he spent a lot
of his childhood isolated, needing nearly constant supervision, so he didn't have a
wide circle of human friends, but he was able to surround himself with animal
ones instead. After Austin was born, his father started breeding exotic animals on
their ranch. These animals included Ostrich different species of deer and warthogs, and
then in his twenties, one night, Austin was hit with the worst pain
he had ever experienced in his life, which turned out to be a brain
hemorrhage that nearly killed him again, but he survived and said he was convinced
his life had been spared by God. So Austin turned to like all these
animals for comfort and friendship, and there was one animal that he formed a
very close bond with after his string of medical issues shoes, which was a
warhog named Whyalan. Whalen's mother died during labor in twenty seventeen, so Austin
took to raising the baby on his own, bottle feeding it and making it
a makeshift nursery inside their home, and Whitlan, the little warhog, spent
its time wrestling with the family bulldog. There's a lot of bulldogs in this
episode. There. They must be going with exotic animals do at a but
Whalen would follow Austin around and fall asleep on his chest after being fed.
He loved red apples and belly screeches, and sitting in Austin's car for drive
through food trips. Did he get a pup cup pig cut. I rolled
to Starbucks. Can you get a pig? Can a warhog cup? Please?
So, as you can imagine, Austin and Whalen were pretty inseparable,
but Whylan, being a warhog, soon got to be two hundred and fifty
pounds, and at this point he was moved to an outdoor pen hundreds of
yards from their family's home. I also want to take a minute here.
I didn't take notes on this, but you know, like teacup pigs and
miniature pigs, yeah, those aren't real people. Have you ever heard of
anyone owning one? Okay? I knew someone who got one and she was
like, oh, it'll stay little fever. No, her he cut pig
got to get two hundred pounds attacked her grandma. So I just want to
put it out there. They don't stay little, even teacup pigs, they
still gonna be big pigs, like because the biggest pigs are like eight hundred
pounds, like the feet the pigs that you like, you know for the
harvest pigs, yeah, pigs. I don't know the word for harvest pigs
that sounds cute, harvest pig. It means messed up anyways, a cute
name on it rebrand. Anyways, similar to most pigs species, warthogs,
including Whalen, are very intelligent and he knew basic commands, including his own
name, which he would like, come running for, oh wow, And
when Austin wasn't looking, Whalen would root into his back pocket for a pair
of pliers. He always kept there and would play keep away with Austin around
his pen. However, how tall was How tall are they? That's a
great question. I mean, like they are pretty big. I don't know.
So there's like this picture of one, like a diagram one standing next
to a guy. They're they're pretty sizable, so they can. Their shoulder
height is like twenty five to thirty three inches, so that's it's pretty tall.
Yep. Anyways, so that tall and two hundred fifty pounds. So
unlike domestic pigs, though, Whalen belonged to the warthog species, one that
doesn't have a predictable behavior as a domesticated species might. So this leads us
to one October day in twenty twenty two. We're talking a lot about October.
Didn't attack happened October? Yeah? What happens anyways, so stay.
In October twenty twenty two, Whalen was now five years old, and the
day started out like any other on the ranch. Whalen seemed like his normal,
friendly self, and Austin said hello to him as he passed through the
gate into his enclosure and scratched him on the back. They walked together to
fill two feeding truffs, and about twenty minutes later, Austin went to feed
his pot belly pig Daisy in an adjacent pen, so he like exited the
pen, fed Daisy, came back into Whyalan's enclosure and began walking towards his
all trained vehicle, which was parked outside the enclosure. But all of a
sudden, Austin's right leg crumpled underneath him and he went flying forward, landing
fifteen feet away. Oh As Austin regathered his senses, he looked up and
saw Whalen's face through a cloud of dust near his feet. Before Austin could
stand, Whalen got between Austin's lower legs and began thrashing his head back and
forth, stabbing Austin twice with one tusk in the right calf and stabbing him
once in the left half. He also tore open from Austin's right knee to
his upper thigh. Oh, so deep and wide that Austin could stick his
hand inside it. I wish everyone could see reactions Marge's hand was shot in
the air, like, sorry, honestly, I feel like I would do
that too if I was wounded, to be like, can I put my
hand on the Ooh? I wouldn't. No, absolutely not. Okay.
Well, hey, it's okay to be different, It's okay to touch your
wounds. So Austin also at this point felt cool air hitting warm muscle and
realized that blood was spilling from his jeans and pooling in his boots. That's
how much blood he was losing. Oh. He also knew his parents were
inside their house having dinner, but that was a quarter mile away, so
he screamed, but he knew he was too far for anyone to hear him.
Oh okay. Initially, Austin hoped that this was like a momentary show
of dominance, but he looked Whalen in the eye and saw his quote rage
filled eyes, which made him realize this was much more than Whalen being territorial.
Austin tried to scoot away, but Whalen charged at him and tried pinning
him to the ground. War Hoogs can run up to thirty miles an hour,
so there was no way Austin could have scooted fast enough to get away
from him. Before Austin could defend himself, the war hog stabbed him four
more times his upper left leg and genitals, following very quickly by a few
more stabs to his upper right leg. Austin tried to gouge out Whalen's eyes,
but the warhog's facial armor blocked Austin from doing this. He tried grabbing
Whalen's tusks, but ended up slicing open his own wrist. So they're like
built for this. I mean, you figure, like in Africa they're fighting
off lions, so yeah, they're definitely built to fight off a person.
Whalen also stabbed Austin in the abdomen, and Austin tried putting him in a
headlock, but whalan jerked his head up, stabbing Austin with a tusk in
his voice box, which left a quarter sized hole in his neck, causing
a piece of artery to dangle out. So this knocked Austin completely over,
and he knew he would be done for if Whalen was able to get on
top of him, so he paused for a moment, kind of lying there
as if he was dead, and Whalen actually did stop briefly, and this
gave Austin the chance to stagger to his feet, running truly off adrenaline at
this point, and he had to scale an eight foot high fence to escape
with arterie dangling out. Imagine yeah, and all like the damage done to
his legs, Yeah yeah, I cut open from your knee up to your
thigh. Yeah wow. But once Austin made it out of the pen,
he realized during the attack his phone had fallen on the ground in the enclosure,
and he knew he couldn't stay conscious long enough or like really probably have
function enough in his body to drive back to his house to get help,
so he had to re enter the enclosure. Are you so he did?
Oh my? He walked twenty feet and had to retrieve his phone without Whylan
noticing him. He was able to do this. He waited until Whalean walked
away a little bit, grabbed his phone and began stumbling towards a nearby gate,
but was struggling with some latches to get out of the gate, and
Whalen charged again. Thankfully, Austin was able to slip through the gate just
seconds before whale got there. Austin collapsed on the ground on the other side,
and Wayland lunged at the fence trying to break through to get to him.
That is horrifying. Yeah, typically Austin had no cell reception on this
part of the property either, but on this day, which he said is
like thank God, he had one bar and was able to call his dad,
and he told his dad that he was bleeding out. He told his
parents how much he loved them before he hung up, thanking them for always
being there for him and that his death wasn't their fault. From where he
was a quarter mile away, Austin could hear I literally have chills. Austin
could hear his mom screaming, and could hear his dad peeling out of their
driveway towards him. When Austin's dad got to him, his first instinct was
to push all the tissue back into Austin's body, trying to put him back
together. As he was put into his dad's car, he lost feeling in
his hands and his feet, a sign that his body was going into shock.
His dad called NEMA one and emergency responders advised him to wait in their
car, but his dad refused, racing onto the interstate to meet them,
with Austin's mom in a car behind falling Gotcha. Because of his severe condition,
Austin's parents were told that they couldn't ride in the ambulance with him,
so they had to say goodbye and that they loved him and to keep fighting.
Austin's mom dropped to her knees in the middle of the road, where
a sheriff had to help escort her to safety, afraid that she was gonna
get hit by a car. By the time Austin reached the hospital thirty minutes
away, he'd lost nearly half of his blood, which hospital staff said,
had it been any more, he likely would have died. They also found
out that Whalen's tusks came within millimeters of severing arteries, and he had a
total of fifteen stab wounds that they could tell, but some wounds were so
messy that they couldn't determine how many there actually were, but fifteen was like
the lowest count. And I also want to note here that wartog stab wounds
aren't like a clean stab. So their tusks, which Margie recently found out
before we started recording that what was it. The average tusk is like seven
inches, but that's like on the smaller side. Yeah, and that like
large was over ten inches. Yeah. So their tusks are also hooked to
do the most amount of damage possible when coming out of whatever they're stabbing,
rather than going in. That makes sense. His recovery was long, but
after ten surgeries, Austin survived once again. To this day, he still
has no idea what caused Whalen to attack, saying that his penmate, a
female warhog, wasn't in heat at the time, and he didn't seem to
be guarding food. It didn't seem like he was cornered in any way.
It just seemed random. As for Whalen. The day after the attack,
Austin's parents asked a friend to kill Whalen and cut off his head to send
to the state for rabies testing. He came back negative, which is good.
Yeah. His parents deleted all the pictures they had of Whalen from their
phones and rehome all their other war hogs because the family just could not stand
to look at war hoogs anymore. Whoa However, Austin kept pictures of Whalen,
but it took him over a year to be able to look at them
again. In the end, when asked how Austin thought Whalen felt about the
attack, like if they if he thought that maybe Whalen like regretted it or
something, Austin took some time but responded with quote, I don't think it
was Whalen who attacked me. I was attacked by a ward hog, and
that's it. I just can't imagine like having like getting out of the pen
and then being like you have to go put my phone's in there. I
also can't imagine raising something from a baby and like every single day you're like
really friend. Like they would cuddle together in the sun, Like there's so
many pictures here. Let me show you some pictures that's them too. Yeah,
and then there's pictures of them like laying together. I mean, also
there's pictures of his tusks, which I'll post on Patreon. But here's a
picture of Whalen just like asleep on Yeah. They were Austin's like just like
hanging out. They were like really close, and it's crazy. I wonder,
like what what happened, what switched? I don't know, but that's
the thing. They're not domesticated, so it's like they are not nearly as
predictable and warhogs. Their whole thing is like being super vigil and anxious all
the time because they live around so many things to try to kill them in
Africa where they belong, so and like they're literally meant for killing anything.
They're built. Yes, yeah, So anyways, Margie onto a new species
that we haven't talked about yet. Ooh, so when I walked in on
the documentary, you kind of filled me in on what had happened previously because
we witnessed the auction for like mammals, which was horrifying, very scary,
and I do you want to say, there's a really good quote from the
documentary where the guy was like, the only next crazy thing other than what
we're seeing here is as if there was like an auction of children because of
the way that they just like manhandled monkeys and stuff, and it was just
like if you watch it is so disturbing. But anyways, sorry, continue
So that really like sparked my interests because you were saying that there was reptiles
and snakes and cups and like crammed into bins, and you know, I
think it was in Pennsylvania. It was like the largest reptile expo in the
country. And yeah, there were venomous like baby venomous snakes just in cups.
You could. The guy Tim Harrison from the documentary bought a venomous I
think it was a good boon viper maybe, and they just gave it to
him in a bin with like some holes drilled on the top for air,
and like no background check or anything. They just like he handed over the
money and eventually he sent it to like a research institute for venom studies,
which was great, but like just anybody could get whatever they wanted, like
venomous snakes. They just had little red tape to indicate that it was venomous.
It was crazy. Wow, yeah, so cool, super neat.
So speaking of venomous snakes, so this one is a little bit mysterious and
for anybody listening it kind of reminded me of the second book in the series
of Unfortunate Events, The Reptile Room. So this starts in twenty eleven when
fifty six year old Elita Stacy was found dead by her boyfriend in their home
in Putnam, up Stany, which is about an hour from Rutland, Vermont.
Oh wow, yeah, her death was caused by a black mamba snake.
The black mamba snake is the second longest venomous snake after the king cobra.
They commonly grow to about nine to ten feet and sometimes up to fourteen
to fifteen feet. Wow. And not from Upstate New York. No,
definitely not, not at all. They're from mid Africa. They can travel
about ten miles per hour if they got to go fast because goood, Yeah,
it's goood. Black mambas are both tree and groundwelling snakes and are found
in Central and South Africa. Again, they can be found in dense forest
savannah's rocky environments. They seem to be like all terrain, an all terrain
snake, having few natural predators. They appear on small birds and small animals.
They are not social and they are not territorial. Okay, so they
vary in colors from gray to dark browns. The black in their name black
mamba refers to the inky black inside of their mouth, which they then owe
open when they feel threatened. One description called their open mouth shape to be
the shape of a coffin. Oh yeah, which spooky. Yeah, I
did look up photos and yeah, kind of has that shape. That's cool.
So there you go. When they're getting ready to bite, they will
spread their narrow neck, flap and sometimes hiss. Because of their length,
they can strike from considerable range, can deliver multiple strikes in rapid succession.
And I do want to note here, like we've covered venomous snakes before and
we will in the future too, but once again, just because a snake
is venomous doesn't mean that they always have to inject you with venom. They
can like choose whether or not they Sorry if you were going to say that,
lets yeah, no, that's all good, specifically about the black mambas.
But continue, Yeah, that was it, Okay. They don't have
to invenimate you. They choose not to sometimes. But black mamba venom is
primarily composed of neurotoxins, which will affect one's nervous system, along with cardiotoxins,
which will attack the heart. They can induce symptoms for a victim within
ten minutes. Of a bite. Oh boy, it's frequently fatal, since
two drops of its venom can kill a person within twenty minutes. So that
means you've got to get somewhere extremely fast that has anti venom and hope that
there's no long lasting nerve damage. Yes, and I know, like you
know, in our Rattlesnake episode we talked about, oh well, if you
get bitten, like you know, if you're close to a hospital, you
will probably be okay. But if you're in a rural area, obviously having
the time to get somewhere is vital. And in Africa, if it's a
rural area and you're not near somewhere like a big health facility, I can
imagine they kill quite a few people. Yeah. Yeah. So also the
rapid succession of bytes that they can do, so they can carry up to
twenty drops of venom in their fangs at one time. Wow, so you
could be administered multiple way more than two drops. Oh so that means you
were saying like, oh, if you get like a few drops, you
got ten to twenty minutes. Yeah, whereas if you get hit multiple times.
They can imagine that would speed that up. Yeap. Yikes. Yeah,
great, animal to have as a pet. Yeah. In America YEP
and in Upstate New York I meant frequently that they are fatal, meaning that
they have been cases, specifically with black mambas, to have been a dry
bite, whereas there's no venom administered by the black mamba. Also, depending
on where the bite was and how much was injected, people have survived a
bite without anti venom. Wow. So this does not mean though, if
you're bitten by a black mamba, then we get help. Please go get
help. So we probably don't have to tell people that. Hopefully you would
assume that you would need help, especially with this type of snake. So
once bitten and depending on where, humans can collapse within twenty to forty five
minutes and can be dead within seven to fifteen hours. If it's a direct
bloodstream bite, it's one hundred percent fatal within twenty minutes. Wow. So
Symptoms will include a slight swelling at the side of the bite, pain or
light burning, loss of control of the tongue jaw, resulting in slurred speech,
tunnel and blurred vision, respiratory difficulties, drowsiness, along with paralysis of
all muscle groups and mental confusion. Wow. Mainly, if you're bitten by
a snake, seek medical attention asaff And secondly, and I know this would
be so hard, but remaining calm and not raising your heart rate will lessen
the spread of venom throughout your body. Lie down and try to keep calm
and keep the bite location below heart level. Cover the bite with a clean
dressing. Also, please don't use it tournique. Don't open the wound and
stuck out the venom, and don't apply ice or water. Please don't apply
a tournique, as this concentrates the venom to just one spot and not applying
one will dissipate the venom throughout. So wow, it'll tournicating it will speed
things up. Okay, not tournicating it lessens the concentrate of it. Yep,
does that make sense? Yeah, that totally makes sense to me.
So. The black mamba has a reputation of being a highly aggressive snake,
but they only attack humans if they feel threatened or cornered when being handled.
They require a ton of experience and training just to move them from enclosures.
That makes sense. Yeah, I mean I was telling you when you first
got here, we had to move my corn snake to his new final tank,
and even that was he's not venomous at all. He's not a big
snake, but that was a hole to do, Like it was not easy,
So I can't imagine doing it with a venomas snake that's that long.
Yeah, So they just, like about all wild species, do not seek
people out and rather would just like to be left alone. One specialist,
Donald Stryden, said that the black mamba will do anything in its power to
head away from humans rather than attack them. The biggest danger is to keep
attacking them though, or attempting to kill the black mamba, as they will
defend to the maximum of course, so it'll just fill up your chances of
being bitten, which I think is funny that people label them as a very
aggressive snake. But it's like, okay, if you're trying to cut their
head off, like, yeah, I would, I would be pretty upset
too, So I get it. And like we've talked about in the podcast
before, they have to replenish that vetom. It's not like they have like
an unlimited store. It's similar to a skuk spring. Like they don't want
to just release everything they have in one go because then they're vulnerable, so
they don't want to like attack things that they don't need to. Yeah,
makes sense, yep, but two drops of their venom is fatal. So
crazy. So going back to Alita Stacy, So, the black mamba was
one of the seventy five exotic snakes found in her home. Wow. In
all articles I found, it was noted that all of these snakes, fifty
six of them being venomous, including a cobra, were under meticulous lock and
keen enclosures. Okay, good within her and her boyfriend's home. The couple
wouldn't let anyone not familiar with the snake to handle them casually. Alita had
a bumper sticker saying, the only good snake is a live snake. Oh
yeah, I want to say that they were taking a lot of precautions,
which I mean, you're snakes, So that's that's not great to begin with
yet. Yeah. Yeah. So when Alita was found, the black Mama's
enclosures had law had been unlocked and opened. Fresh bite marks and snake marks
weren't found on her forearms. So she was found dead, yes, and
bitten. So since her boyfriend found her, he was questioned, but he
was absolutely cleared of being involved in any way. Okay, gotcha. So
it's just quite mysterious as to what actually happened though there was a lot of
loose ends. They're not sure if it was an accident. She didn't call
nine one one, oh wow. Yeah, But do you think it's a
situation where like if it struck her so many I mean, I guess this
might be an unfair question because it's not like you're a venom expert, but
like not, I wonder if it just like struck her so many times.
You know, I wonder what happens to your body if you get injected with
like a ton of venom, Like if you just become so disoriented so quickly
that you wouldn't have the cognition to like call somebody, or if she didn't
have a phone around, like maybe you didn't have a chance. Yeah,
totally, Yeah, I don't know. That's crazy. So in one article,
though, one friend was interviewed and they said she was an un happy
lady and a very nice lady, a very nice person. When police asked
if her death was intentional, they said it could have been so like suicide
via snake. Yeah, that just I can't imagine doing that, especially if
she was someone that advocated for like snakes not being seen as bad or like
you know, said, any good snake as a live snake. Right,
It's so hard for me to believe that she would enter her own life with
a snake being the one to do it. But also that's gonna be that's
gotta be a terrible way to go. Yeah, not that you know,
any way of dying is great, but like getting injected with venom and that
strong of venom seems like really rough. Yeah. Wow, so that's awful.
Yeah, I just it's so hard talking about this because it's like you
own these venomous snakes for fun. Yeah, because that's that's what it was,
right. It's not they were doing anything constructive with them. They just
liked having venomous snakes. Yeah. All the snakes, including the black mamba,
they were all taken and as of this twenty eleven article, they were
housed at the Bronx Zoo. Most of these snakes were illegal to possess without
a permit. It is illegal in most cities to own even a black mamba
unless you are a zoo or have special licensing. I could not find if
Alita had a special license or a permit, and no sources mentioned that.
So the trade and purchasing of amphibians and reptiles is incredibly unregulated and monitored.
In one of the parts of the documentary that I didn't see, we just
talked about this, ninety percent of wildcot reptiles die in their first year of
captivity due to physical trauma prior to purchase, or because their owners cannot meet
their dietary or habitat requirements. Reptiles are among the most inhumanely treated animals in
the pet trade because they are cheap and easily replaceable. Dealers, captive breeders,
and retailers factor huge mortality in their operating costs. Yeah, and you
know, I want to touch back on something that we mentioned a few episodes
ago when we're talking about wildlife rehab. So I started some Wildlife Rehub classes
because that's a goal of mine, is to be one and so through the
state of Massachusetts. And not that I'm saying anyone should do this, but
you are allowed to take a snapping turtle or painted turtle from the wild.
However, like we talked about in the Wildlife Rehab episode with Jess it gets
really tricky if you're like, I don't want it anymore, because if you
don't have the skills to house them in a way where you're sure that they're
not getting exposed to any bacteria or diseases, if you let them go,
you could be introducing that into the wild, which is really bad, especially
because snapping turtles and painted turtles are like the only ones that aren't endangered,
because turtles are the most endangered animal in the world, full stop. I
like that, yeah, And a lot of it is because of this pet
trade, because people take them. Like if you are someone who rescues or
tries to do conservation work for turtles, the amount of security you need because
people try to steal them is crazy. It's really awful. The more you
look into like the reptile trade, it's really really sad. What's like the
most sought after exotic turtle? Do you know? I don't know. I
don't know if there's like a specific one, but there's some like for example,
there's the spotted turtle in our state, and it's just cute. It's
got like cute little yellow spots on it, and people try to steal those
because they're cute. And there's wood turtles which are also cute because they have
like little orange bellies. People try to steal those all the time. So
it happens here in New England. It happens everywhere that there's turtles. People
try to steal them and often people don't know what they're doing. I say
this as a family who one time took a snapping turtle. We were those
people wants to I have grown and learned. We don't do it anymore,
but we did at one time. Wow yeah so wow. So if you're
someone and I'm not saying that, like owning reptiles can't be fun, like
I said, like we have a pet snake, we don't ever intend to
release him. But like if you're gonna get a snake, if you're gonna
get a turtle, a tortoise, first of all, know that you're gonna
have them for a very long time, and get them from somewhere that you
know it's reputable and that they're like not being inbred and that they are being
cared for correctly in whatever facility you get them from. You can also rescue
them from organizations like on pet pinder. You can look up reptiles. So
that's my two cents. Sorry, I ran about that. No, I
learned a lot. I did learn a lot so talking about acquiring turtles and
other reptiles. So a quick and easy Google search for me, I found
a black mamba for one hundred and fifty US dollars. That's it, Yeah,
with mandatory overnight delivery with an additional fifty dollars. I went as far
as to the checkout point on the site, and nowhere was there a request
to see any qualifications, licensing or permits in order to obtain this snake.
On this site quote we offer exotic reptiles for sale online at absolute rock bottom
prices, Oh my god, which means we make these fascinating animals available to
you affordably as pets or even to start your own reptile breeding product. Amongst
the other creatures available included alligators, arizona rattlesnakes, king cobras, poison dart
frogs, and ball pythons. I'm not giving out the name of this website,
so it was depressing and awful. I just it is crazy to me
that there's no more If you're so easily able to find this, how is
this not shut down. So if my post office was to get a venomous
snake, would there be any indication on it? There's a venomous snake?
Yeah, you know what I mean, because it's illegal for me to own
one here in New Hampshire. So how how is that regulated? Yeah,
there's a for a master's degree. There's a class in like cybercrime, and
I cannot wait to take it because I want to know, like how websites
like this are able to still exist. Yeah. But so for bear suck
or Yeah, thank you for Vision Wild last. They're so good at what
they do. They know what they're doing. So you have one more story
for us about snakes? Yeah hit us? Okay, cool? So this
is about gypsy. This one is heavy. In twenty eleven, Jaron Hare
and boyfriend Charles Darnell were found guilty on all charges of death her Hair's two
year old daughter, Shayana, who was killed by their pet python in two
thousand and nine in the state of Florida. This is, unfortunately an awful
combination of substance abuse and neglect from multiple parties. So I'm just giving an
overall warning up front for the listeners because this is quite heavy. So where
we start is in May of two thousand and nine, when the Department of
Children and Families had received a complaint for child neglect due to substance abuse.
Child Welfare investigated the home and weighed the situation. Jaren Hare, who was
nineteen, lived with her boyfriend, Charles Darnell. Sorry is her name?
Jaren? Jaren Jaron Okay? Sorry? Speak sure? Karen with a j
Charles Darnell, who was thirty two at the time, and her daughter,
two year old Shayana. Additionally, they had a pet, five year old
Burmese python Gypsy. Gypsy, who was about eight and a half feet was
kept in an aquarium take that was out of the child's reach and was secured
by a safety pinn quote well as a lid. That's I want to rant
so hard, but o'h wait. Hair and Darnell reported were participating and using
a range of drugs and had no intentions of stopping, which is what they
told welfare services. What he told them that didn't even bother a lie that
they were to stop doing the drugs. Oh my god, damn. I
mean, I guess being truthful is good, but like damn. Yeah.
So despite sufficient costs to go to court to protect Shyana. Then services decided
to close the case and offered at home services, which were also refused.
Wow, so it was noted. Though they did not note that the snake
was a hazard. Child Welfare was not there for the snake, just the
drugs, just the situation that was at handed in the home. Unfortunately,
on June thirty first, two thousand and nine, literally two weeks after the
investigation was closed, Oh Shayana's mom took an unprescribed biked and pill and went
to bed. Darnell, Jaron's boyfriend, went to check on the toddler at
around ten am the next morning, only to find Gypsy wrapped around Shyana in
her crib. Oh Shayana was bitten on her face, head, abdomen,
hands, and arms, and was wrapped tightly around her upper body and head,
so it bit her multiple times before it latched somewhere. Yeah boy.
At this sight, Darnell threw Gypsy to the floor and stabbed the python repeatedly
with a butcher's knife and meat cleaver. Multiple articles noted that Gypsy had clearly
had not had a meal in some time and was very emaciated. One article,
noting that she had not been fed in over a month, which I
mean, to be fair, some snakes like cango long periods. But if
they are neglecting a child, I can't imagine they're taking care of a snake.
So Darnell called nine one one saying, we have a Bernise python and
she's about twelve feet long. She got out of her cage last night and
into the baby's crib and strangled her to death. I'm going to kill that
bitch. Child Welfare made it clear that Gypsy was not noted as a threat
in the initial investigation. It was the family's erratic behavior and substance abuse.
Multiple parties, including friends and family, regarded Gipsy as a gentle snake,
but multiple family members had expressed their discomfort with the situation, Jaren's ex,
Shayana's father, and Jaren's mom even offering to buy the snake off of her
and keeping it ooo. At the trial, Pete Magrino stated, the snake
is not at fault in this case. It's a wild animal. The responsibility
for the death of that child is those defendants. The defendant's argument had presented
it as simply a terrible accident, Darnelle's attorney argued, he is not guilty
of manslaughter. He is not guilty of murder. He's not guilty of neglecting
that child. He's guilty of making a stupid decision and having a stupid pet
Ooh okay sure. The jury rejected this, saying we also felt that as
the parents and the caregivers, their responsibility was to preclude any chance that there
could be an incident of any kind because a two year old could not protect
herself, a four person told reporters. After the trial, Charles Darnell and
Jaren Hare were convicted to aggravated manslaughter and child neglect, resulting to twelve years
in prison in twenty eleven. Darnell was released from prison in January twenty twenty
one, and Hair being released in September of twenty twenty one. They will
be on probation until twenty twenty six, and then a twenty twenty one article
confirmed that they were planning to get married. Well, okay, yeah,
I would love to rant is now for it? Okay, See here's the
this is my problem is that you can purchase any sort of snake. No
one checks in to make sure you know what you're doing. And even my
horn snake, who's I mean like maybe four feet long. He could get
out from a quill too. They're so strong. That's just not like a
chill pet you have. That's a that's a very serious commitment to have a
snake that that that's that big, that's strong obviously can get out of quilt.
They failed both that snake and that girl so bad. Yeah, it's
just so sad that the snake is I don't think the snake is seen in
his bag. Guy obviously got convicted and went to jail, But like,
I don't know what point I was trying to make. I'm just mad,
that's okay. Yeah, it's really complicated and like infuriating because everything could have
been prevented. Yeah, and I just I really wish that this country did
more in terms of like people being able to buy whatever they want as a
pet. I know, ooh, it's America, can do whatever I want.
I don't think that that should be the case. Like we talked about
in the documentary The Elf in the living Room, which we keep mentioning,
but it's super relevant. There was a doctor in that documentary who worked in
Ohio, but he also did missions in Africa where he would go do work
there, and he said, I see more animal tac injuries in America,
far surpassing anything I see in Africa, because the people in Africa don't keep
these animals as pets, probably because mostly they live around them outside, so
they're like, why would I But he's like, they know to stay away
from these types of animals that people in America think would be a good idea
to have pets. And I don't understand what it is about. I mean,
obviously it's not just an American problem, but like I just I don't
understand why you would want a snake like a black mamba, Like, what
is it that you just need to be around an animal that dangerous? Why
do you need a bear? Why do you need a lion? Go hiking
where there's mountain lions if you need a thrill, Like, just go into
the wilderness where we have animals that are slightly dangerous. We have places that
have venomous snakes. Go hike around there if you want a thrill, you
know what I mean, Like you don't need it in your house. Yeah,
oh sorry, all right, I'm done. So it's great. Well,
no, it's not great. Now, the whole situation sucks. Yeah.
I don't know. I just I feel like I'm one of those people
who just doesn't have the desire to like own one of those things. No,
for like eight like hot second, I found out that people could own
hyaenas and like literally get one millisecond. I was like, that'd be cool.
Then I was like, no, no way, no, We're going
to talk about that in our next tip. Oh ooh oh yeah, people
who are not doing it right me spoilers on that. I did write a
little little diddy about pythons in Florida. Yes, would you like me to
talk? Oh my god, please? It is long overdue us talking about
this. Oh okay, I thought you guys had talked about this. I
can't remember. There's on a few episodes. That's all good. So one
of the reasons I wanted to cover a python incident is because in the documentary
they touched on how they are incredibly invasive in Florida. There's a part where
Everglade Park Services is called and a python has been reported out in the park.
Tim Harrison is desperately calling in state sanctuaries to take in the python along
with zoos and private rescue facilities as they're all full. He then reaches out
to out of state facilities, trying anything to get this python housed. In
the end, because no one can take it in, the python is shot.
Yeah, and I think what he did is like abnormal. I think
most of the time they're just killed. Yes, Yeah. So one of
the most hot exotic pets to own is some version of a constrictor snake.
Bo constrictors, Burmese pythons and other constrictors are notorious for ownership neglect a lot
of cases where people just release them out into the wild for multiple reasons,
which is incredibly neglectful to the snake and in Florida, incredibly neglectful to the
natural wildlife. Yeah. So, there is an estimate of about three hundred
thousand burmese pythons in Florida currently now. Non native Burmese pythons have established a
breeding population in the Everglades National Park. Pythons compete with native wildlife for food.
Several mammals like raccoons, possums, and rabbits have been on a rapid
decline in the park, and this is linked to the growing population of the
pythons, so in twenty twelve, importation of Burmese pythons was banned in the
United States. As of twenty twenty one, Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission
prohibits the commercial sales of pythons and limits ownership to the purpose strictly to research
and educational exhibition, and they must have a permit. The species may not
be possessed for commercial sales. Pythons are not protected in Florida except by an
anti cruelty law. There is an ethical and legal obligation to extinguish a Burnamese
python in Florida, which prevents suffering and destroys the brain of the python,
which, to simply put it, is accurately shooting them in the head,
yeah, or stunning them and then immediately administering a lethal blow to pierce the
brain. There is no permit, there's no hunting license or bag count to
kill pythons in the wild of Florida. It's encouraged. Yeah, and I
know that they're I think we've touched on this before, but I know that
like Florida, because they have so many invasives, including the iguanas they have,
they're on that list as well. Yeah, they have stuff on their
website of like, hey, if you kill them and want to eat them,
here's some recipes yep, yep, yep. And then even on the
site they like give you step by step on how to like ethically kill them
and legally kill them. Yes, well thanks, Margie's all you had for
the snakes. That's it. Yeah, well what a horrifying, horrifying situation.
Yeah, I mean they've all been horrifying. Yeah, they have been.
So I don't know if there's a takeaway from this episode. I think
we're both biased towards not owning big exotic pets. But well, we'll gat
more into like the really dark side, especially on social media, like some
of you send me videos of people owning these pets. And we're gonna have
a big talk next week about what it means to like ethically consume social media
that includes exotic pets. Ooh yeah. So but well we'll still cover a
text It's it's dark, it's weird. I can't wait. Yeah, So,
thank you all so much for listening to this episode. I will post
all those relevant links and relevant episodes that I mentioned of our podcast in the
episode description, and you can also find links there to our website, where
Margie designed merch that you can buy, including stickers. You can find links
to our Patreon and all of our other social media accounts there as well,
and Margie social media. Thank you, Thank you so much Josh Walsh for
making our intro music, thank you Jesse Walsh for doing all the editing,
and we'll be back in two weeks with more animal attack stories. Bye bye