WEBVTT 1 00:00:17.839 --> 00:00:21.879 Hello, and welcome to Western Siev. I have a real treat for you 2 00:00:21.960 --> 00:00:26.559 today. I'm sitting down with historian Rachel krast Along. We're talking about her 3 00:00:26.600 --> 00:00:31.079 new book, Bismarck's War. Now, as I'll say again, when we 4 00:00:31.079 --> 00:00:34.079 get into the interview, like I thought back onto, hey, what have 5 00:00:34.159 --> 00:00:37.119 I been talking about Franco Prussian War? And then I come back with a 6 00:00:37.119 --> 00:00:42.079 big almost nothing. It's just a stepping stone to World War One. It's 7 00:00:42.159 --> 00:00:48.200 just part of German unification. But it's so much more than that. This 8 00:00:48.240 --> 00:00:52.520 book does an excellent job of laying out the foundations for the war, the 9 00:00:52.679 --> 00:00:57.920 causes, the immediate sparks, what it was like to fight as a regular 10 00:00:58.000 --> 00:01:02.920 person, and in many ways how it was a precursor to World War One. 11 00:01:03.079 --> 00:01:08.599 It also goes through be ineptitude us of the French command, notably Napoleon 12 00:01:08.640 --> 00:01:12.159 the Third, who you will remember from our other book. We talked about 13 00:01:12.159 --> 00:01:18.359 the last emper of Mexico. He couldn't conquer Mexico and he can't stop Bismarck. 14 00:01:19.159 --> 00:01:25.359 Napoleon the Third. So it's a great book overall, an excellent read, 15 00:01:25.640 --> 00:01:29.799 and a terrific read for somebody who's interested in early modern European history. 16 00:01:29.879 --> 00:01:34.599 I looked, I couldn't find anything comparable when it came to the Franco Prussian 17 00:01:34.599 --> 00:01:41.760 War that doesn't get ridiculously into the weeds in terms of troop movements and specific 18 00:01:41.760 --> 00:01:45.599 commanders names and so on and so forth. There's a military history that stays 19 00:01:46.280 --> 00:01:49.760 broad enough that it is accessible to any fan of history, and I highly 20 00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:56.400 recommend picking it up, as I always say in every single author interview that 21 00:01:56.480 --> 00:01:59.959 we do. The link is in the show notes if you'd like to check 22 00:02:00.040 --> 00:02:04.760 check it out. It's out today, so feel free to click that link 23 00:02:04.760 --> 00:02:08.080 and purchase the book. I'm sure Rachel would love it, and I'm sure 24 00:02:08.120 --> 00:02:15.240 that you will be a happier history buff having read it. With that being 25 00:02:15.319 --> 00:02:22.120 said, here's the interview. Okay, welcome back. As I mentioned, 26 00:02:22.240 --> 00:02:25.120 I am sitting down here with historian Rachel Crastell, and we were talking about 27 00:02:25.159 --> 00:02:31.360 her most recent book out today entitled Bismarck's War. It's the Franco Prussian War 28 00:02:31.439 --> 00:02:35.560 and the making of modern Europe. You know, it was kind of interesting. 29 00:02:35.599 --> 00:02:39.199 As I sat down and read the book, I started to try to 30 00:02:39.240 --> 00:02:46.520 think back to all the European history courses that I had taken throughout college and 31 00:02:46.639 --> 00:02:51.159 even going back to ap European history in high school and tried to think of, 32 00:02:51.240 --> 00:02:57.159 Okay, what was I taught about the Franco Prussian War, And the 33 00:02:57.199 --> 00:03:02.000 same answer kept coming up in that it wasn't really taught the war independently. 34 00:03:02.120 --> 00:03:06.719 And what I mean by that is the war was I think part of a 35 00:03:06.840 --> 00:03:12.439 chapter called German Unification, and it was taught as sort of an aspect of 36 00:03:12.560 --> 00:03:17.039 German unification, but it was never discussed of its own merit. And you 37 00:03:17.159 --> 00:03:23.080 kind of start in the book in the introduction talking about the realities in that 38 00:03:23.159 --> 00:03:29.639 the Franco Prussian War is almost sort of consistently forgotten when we teach European history 39 00:03:29.680 --> 00:03:32.639 and even when we teach modern European history. I was wondering if you could 40 00:03:32.800 --> 00:03:36.879 touch on that for a second and talk about, you know, why is 41 00:03:36.960 --> 00:03:39.400 that and also like why is it such a problem, because I do agree 42 00:03:39.439 --> 00:03:43.400 with you, I think it is. Yeah, thanks that, I'm happy 43 00:03:43.400 --> 00:03:46.560 to be here, glad to be able to talk about the book. I 44 00:03:46.599 --> 00:03:50.000 think the book. I think that the war has forgotten for a couple of 45 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:53.120 different reasons. First of all, as you mentioned, it gets lumped in 46 00:03:53.199 --> 00:03:57.919 with the wars of German Unification, So those wars that happened between eighteen sixty 47 00:03:57.919 --> 00:04:01.360 four in eighteen seventy one that led to the unification of Germany in January of 48 00:04:01.400 --> 00:04:05.759 eighteen seventy one. The Franco Prussian War is the last of those three conflicts. 49 00:04:06.159 --> 00:04:12.039 But I think there's a bigger picture for why the Franco Prussian War gets 50 00:04:12.080 --> 00:04:15.919 forgotten, and that's because it gets lost with the two World Wars. It 51 00:04:15.960 --> 00:04:17.959 gets overshadowed by World War One and World War Two, of course, and 52 00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:21.519 so people just kind of see this as just one more run up to that 53 00:04:21.720 --> 00:04:26.800 conflict between France and Germany that happens in the twentieth century. But I think 54 00:04:26.839 --> 00:04:30.160 that's a shame because the Franco Prussian War, the Franco Prussian War, is 55 00:04:30.199 --> 00:04:34.800 its own, its own conflict. It's forty four years prior to World War 56 00:04:34.839 --> 00:04:40.800 One. It stands right in the middle between the Napoleonic Wars and the World 57 00:04:40.839 --> 00:04:44.160 Wars of the twentieth century, and so in terms of technology, in terms 58 00:04:44.199 --> 00:04:47.720 of strategy, in terms of the ways that European armies were constructed and put 59 00:04:47.759 --> 00:04:50.920 together, it is right in the middle of those two kinds of conflicts, 60 00:04:50.959 --> 00:04:54.839 and we can dig into that a little bit down the road, but it's 61 00:04:55.600 --> 00:05:02.000 it's furthermore an interesting conflict because, unlike say World War Two, there's not 62 00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:06.600 a clear cut answer to sort of who's the hero and who's the villain in 63 00:05:06.639 --> 00:05:12.079 this war. There's not somebody that you're really rooting for to say this is 64 00:05:12.120 --> 00:05:15.560 the good guy that we want to see, when it's much more a conflict 65 00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:20.360 between two nations that we're trying to do get out for supremacy on the continent. 66 00:05:20.879 --> 00:05:26.480 And they're very interesting. The leadership is very interesting, very very different. 67 00:05:26.959 --> 00:05:30.079 Bismarck and King Wilhelm on the one hand, Napolling the third, and 68 00:05:30.439 --> 00:05:35.519 then later the Government of National Defense in France on the other hand. They're 69 00:05:35.560 --> 00:05:42.160 more complicated, they're more they're they're they're less easy to pin down. But 70 00:05:42.199 --> 00:05:46.480 it's a it's a fascinating conflict precisely because it's right in the middle of those 71 00:05:46.639 --> 00:05:49.560 two kinds of wars, and because of the ways that civilians get caught in 72 00:05:49.600 --> 00:05:55.319 the conflict that becomes the harbinger for the great wars that come in the twentieth 73 00:05:55.319 --> 00:06:00.480 century. Yeah, I couldn't agree more and I do want to come back, 74 00:06:00.519 --> 00:06:02.879 and we are going to come back to sort of how this war functions 75 00:06:02.920 --> 00:06:05.439 as a stepping stone to World War One, because I think that there's really 76 00:06:05.959 --> 00:06:12.319 interesting, some interesting stuff to talk about there. But actually sometimes when I'm 77 00:06:12.360 --> 00:06:15.600 teaching, I tell my students I think that I think World War two. 78 00:06:16.839 --> 00:06:20.000 World War two is kind of the exception in that we have, you know, 79 00:06:20.040 --> 00:06:24.759 the clear good guys and the clear pad guys. Like if you go 80 00:06:24.800 --> 00:06:29.959 back through most wars in history, depending upon what side you're on, that 81 00:06:30.040 --> 00:06:32.519 oftentime dictates who you think the good guy and the bad guys are. There's 82 00:06:32.600 --> 00:06:38.680 not as often a clear cut hero and villain, like we get with the 83 00:06:38.759 --> 00:06:42.600 rise of the Nazi Party, and you know what, all of the things 84 00:06:42.639 --> 00:06:46.519 that sort of come with that, Like we have this desire now, I 85 00:06:46.519 --> 00:06:49.519 think as a result of World War Two to sometimes retrospectively go back and sort 86 00:06:49.560 --> 00:06:53.800 of label who's the hero and who's the villain and some of these conflicts when 87 00:06:54.240 --> 00:06:57.680 this is real politique, as we'll get into in a second, and it's 88 00:06:57.720 --> 00:07:02.360 not necessarily about good versus evil. You know, this is a conflict between 89 00:07:02.399 --> 00:07:06.120 two nation states. But before we move, before we just sort of kick 90 00:07:06.199 --> 00:07:12.360 the German unification can off the screen. Let's just touch on it for a 91 00:07:12.399 --> 00:07:18.079 second, because this war does play a really really important part in German unification, 92 00:07:18.600 --> 00:07:23.800 and I was hoping you could kind of explain to the audience sort of 93 00:07:23.879 --> 00:07:29.240 where we are in German I unification in that process when the war starts, 94 00:07:29.959 --> 00:07:35.040 and what Bismarck's theory is in terms of how this war is going to help 95 00:07:35.399 --> 00:07:40.199 to solidify the final unification of Germany, which of course, in fact it 96 00:07:40.240 --> 00:07:44.600 does absolutely so. At this point, following the Austro Prussian War of eighteen 97 00:07:44.680 --> 00:07:47.759 sixty six, the North German Confederation has come into being, and Bismarck is 98 00:07:47.800 --> 00:07:51.360 the chancellor of that confederation. So Prussia is of course at the heart the 99 00:07:51.439 --> 00:07:56.720 leadership of that confederation, but many, many, many German states and principalities 100 00:07:56.720 --> 00:08:03.079 have at this point joined that North German Confederation and remaining independent. The three 101 00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:11.680 primary areas are Bavaria, Baden and Wurtemburg and part of the Duchy at Hessa. 102 00:08:11.759 --> 00:08:16.000 So these areas are still independent, but they are now part that they 103 00:08:16.040 --> 00:08:20.839 now have treaties with the North German Confederation that require them to go to war 104 00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:24.920 should Prussia be attacked or be engaged in a conflict now. Even so, 105 00:08:24.560 --> 00:08:28.519 once France and Prussia end up declaring war on each other in July, it's 106 00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:33.879 not entirely clear whether the South German states are going to fall into line. 107 00:08:33.919 --> 00:08:37.600 But very in particular is very reluctant to join Prussia in this fight, even 108 00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:43.159 though their military has been dominated by Prussia for the last three years, even 109 00:08:43.159 --> 00:08:46.519 though they're required by treaty, they're still considering, well, should we declare 110 00:08:46.559 --> 00:08:50.320 war or not. But ultimately they came down to the realization that if they 111 00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:54.960 did not join on the side of Prussia and Prussia won, they would not 112 00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:58.879 be dealt with very kindly. Otherwise, by joining the conflict, Bavaria understood 113 00:08:58.879 --> 00:09:03.000 that they could negotiate for potentially better terms. As they are, they could 114 00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:07.600 see the writing on the wall that they were going to be incorporated into a 115 00:09:07.720 --> 00:09:11.320 United German Empire. But I think it's it's really important to note that this 116 00:09:11.360 --> 00:09:13.559 war for Bismarck was not a war of conquest. It wasn't They weren't trying 117 00:09:13.600 --> 00:09:18.240 to create the German Empire by conquering these South German states. They're trying to 118 00:09:18.279 --> 00:09:24.759 incorporate them through treaty, through demonstration, of power through demonstration of a common 119 00:09:24.799 --> 00:09:31.080 conflict, so that inhabitants of all of these different areas Bavaria, boden Burrtemburg 120 00:09:31.159 --> 00:09:35.200 and so on, would see themselves on the side of victory. And you 121 00:09:35.240 --> 00:09:41.240 see this happening. In print I followed the story of a Bavarian soldier who 122 00:09:41.480 --> 00:09:45.840 three years, four years ago was on the opposite side, and now he's 123 00:09:45.879 --> 00:09:50.600 marching up to war alongside Prussian underneath the crown Prince of Prussia. And from 124 00:09:50.600 --> 00:09:54.519 the very beginning he starts to say, hey, I'm fighting alongside with these 125 00:09:54.559 --> 00:10:01.480 Prussians, and where's the While there still is considerable culture difference and sort of 126 00:10:01.480 --> 00:10:05.360 sense of you know, difference between Bavarians and Prussians, for sure happening in 127 00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:11.879 this conflict, they are also going into battle together, and the press tried 128 00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:16.240 valiantly to show that Germans were fighting together. And that sense of unity is 129 00:10:16.320 --> 00:10:22.559 what helped to lead to not only the actual political unification that happened in January 130 00:10:22.720 --> 00:10:30.440 as a result of Prussian victories and pressed negotiations with these other countries, but 131 00:10:30.519 --> 00:10:35.440 it also meant that individual Germans more were inclined to see themselves as German and 132 00:10:35.480 --> 00:10:41.360 to accept the fact of the empire once it was declared. Yeah, and 133 00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:43.879 I want to come back a little bit later on to Bismarck and Bismarck sort 134 00:10:43.879 --> 00:10:48.159 of war aims here to ask you a little bit later, and they do 135 00:10:48.200 --> 00:10:52.120 those sort of change at some point here in the process. But I think 136 00:10:52.840 --> 00:10:58.960 it is it is important to recognize that, yes, there are these parts 137 00:10:58.960 --> 00:11:03.879 of Germany who still remain outside of the United Northern German portion, and they 138 00:11:03.960 --> 00:11:09.039 are very distinct and are hesitant, as you do a great job of pointing 139 00:11:09.039 --> 00:11:13.480 out, even as the conflict is starting, you know, there's this question 140 00:11:13.519 --> 00:11:16.279 mark, you know, barbarious does sort of recognize it has to get involved, 141 00:11:16.279 --> 00:11:18.240 but it's still kind of it wants to sit, it wants to wait, 142 00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:22.399 if at all possible. And so there's there's a lot going on here. 143 00:11:22.440 --> 00:11:26.200 But let's talk about the conflict for a second in terms of there's you 144 00:11:26.200 --> 00:11:31.519 know, there's obviously a spark to every usually every conflict, and you know 145 00:11:31.559 --> 00:11:33.679 this the war it also, as I was taught at years and years ago, 146 00:11:33.799 --> 00:11:37.200 was also sort of a conflict where this is you know, this is 147 00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:43.240 Bismarck just you know, running circles around Napoleon the third he's you know, 148 00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:46.600 he has him totally duped. He's you know, just you know, we're 149 00:11:46.639 --> 00:11:50.039 talking about you know, a professional football team playing a high school football team 150 00:11:50.080 --> 00:11:52.799 here, sort of quality he is, you know, he's just on another 151 00:11:52.919 --> 00:11:56.919 level. And Napoleon the Third's just an idiot and he's just falling forward. 152 00:11:56.960 --> 00:12:01.320 He takes the bait, as it were, So is hit true? And 153 00:12:01.480 --> 00:12:07.639 like what starts this conflict going? Well, it is? It is. 154 00:12:07.799 --> 00:12:11.279 I mean it's true to a certain extent, but like everything, there's always 155 00:12:11.279 --> 00:12:16.399 more complication. So absolutely once So the spark of this particular conflict was the 156 00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:20.000 candidacy for who would be on the throne in Spain, which it sounds like 157 00:12:20.120 --> 00:12:24.279 such an early modern kind of a spark, right. The France is worried 158 00:12:24.279 --> 00:12:31.600 about being encircled by Hovan's Olerns, and so when Prussia proposes one of their 159 00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:37.120 family members to take the throne in Spain, France protests against that candidacy and 160 00:12:37.279 --> 00:12:41.000 Prussia withdraws it. But when they do so, France kind of comes back 161 00:12:41.039 --> 00:12:46.320 with a stronger ask, saying, not only will you withdraw this candidacy, 162 00:12:46.399 --> 00:12:50.679 but will you want you to promise you'll never propose this again? And of 163 00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:52.320 course that's something that no sovereign state is going to do. They're not going 164 00:12:52.360 --> 00:12:56.720 to make promises about the future. And so when that happens, then there's 165 00:12:56.399 --> 00:13:01.480 a rebuff from the King of Prussia, which was sent in a telegram that 166 00:13:01.639 --> 00:13:07.440 Bismarck then doctor to sound even more harsh than it actually was, so it 167 00:13:07.519 --> 00:13:13.919 sounded like this conflict, this conversation that happened between between the Prussian king and 168 00:13:13.960 --> 00:13:18.840 France's representatives, came off as much much harsher than it actually was. And 169 00:13:18.919 --> 00:13:22.639 by this time France could not back down. They had put themselves in such 170 00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:26.559 a position around this candidacy that it was very tough for them to then back 171 00:13:26.600 --> 00:13:31.120 down and say, okay, we won't go to war. Let me back 172 00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:35.240 up a little bit and just mentioned that ever since Prussia defeated Austria in eighteen 173 00:13:35.360 --> 00:13:41.120 sixty six, it was very clear that at some point France and Prussia were 174 00:13:41.159 --> 00:13:46.480 probably going to go to war because Prussia was demonstrating that it wanted to be 175 00:13:46.559 --> 00:13:50.480 the top dog on the continent, and France under Napoleon the Third, who 176 00:13:50.519 --> 00:13:54.639 had always had a little a lot of baggage because of his famous uncle, 177 00:13:54.679 --> 00:13:58.600 of course, the Great Napoleon. He had never himself been such a very 178 00:13:58.639 --> 00:14:03.039 successful military commander. He had struggled in Mexico. He'd been embarrassed there. 179 00:14:03.360 --> 00:14:07.120 He'd been embarrassed when Poland tried to rise up against Russia. He had not 180 00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:13.879 been able to influence any of the outcome of the war between Prussia and Austria. 181 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:16.840 So for years and years he had been suffering black eyes. And so 182 00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:22.039 it was pretty clear that Prussia was going to want to show their dominic against 183 00:14:22.039 --> 00:14:24.919 France, and this was a good opportunity for it. So it's not like 184 00:14:24.960 --> 00:14:28.840 business was exactly looking for this conflict at exactly this time, but he had 185 00:14:28.879 --> 00:14:33.679 his options open and he was ready to move when he could. And then, 186 00:14:33.759 --> 00:14:39.039 as I said, he's doctors this telegram, so that France was backed 187 00:14:39.080 --> 00:14:43.159 into a corner. So there's there's the spark of it, and we can 188 00:14:43.200 --> 00:14:46.360 talk a little bit more about their leadership as the war unfolded as well. 189 00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:50.840 Yeah, and listeners will remember that we did the book The Last Emperor of 190 00:14:50.879 --> 00:14:58.159 Mexico a couple of years ago that talked about that debacle of an attempted French 191 00:14:58.360 --> 00:15:03.120 invasion of Mexico, which takes place during the American Civil War, which Napoleon 192 00:15:03.320 --> 00:15:05.960 saw was sort of like the opening to maybe maybe get in there while the 193 00:15:05.080 --> 00:15:09.320 United States was distracted. As you'll recall, doesn't work and it costs a 194 00:15:09.399 --> 00:15:16.200 lot of money, and so some of napoleon The Thirds decisions, as we'll 195 00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:20.399 see later on, are a little regrettable. As we move forward, there's 196 00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:24.120 an interesting part. So as the war starts to unfold, and as it 197 00:15:24.159 --> 00:15:28.559 becomes clear that France and I'm going to use Germany, even though it's a 198 00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:31.720 little anachronistic to do so, that they're going to there is going to be 199 00:15:31.720 --> 00:15:37.200 a state of war between them. Now the question begins to take shape of 200 00:15:37.480 --> 00:15:43.240 Okay, is this going to be France versus Germany or are other European states 201 00:15:43.679 --> 00:15:48.039 going to become involved? And that struck me as I was reading the book, 202 00:15:48.039 --> 00:15:54.080 to be a very important question because, as you mentioned, Prussia and 203 00:15:54.279 --> 00:16:00.279 Austria had recently fought a conflict, and so perhaps it's in Austria's best interest 204 00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:04.679 to intervene, but only if there's a chance that France is going to prevail 205 00:16:04.919 --> 00:16:08.120 in this. If they're not going to prevail, then maybe there isn't a 206 00:16:08.120 --> 00:16:11.879 good opportunity. And then Britain's a little bit different too, So I wonder 207 00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:17.720 if you could talk a little bit about the alliances and lack thereof, and 208 00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:22.600 how important that is as this conflict gets started. Sure, one of the 209 00:16:22.679 --> 00:16:26.360 challenges for France was that it did not have allies going into this war, 210 00:16:26.519 --> 00:16:33.200 and it was desperately seeking to find common cause with Austria, perhaps with Italy 211 00:16:33.279 --> 00:16:38.120 looking a little bit to Britain, but you know, with less hope there. 212 00:16:40.120 --> 00:16:45.759 They certainly hoped that they could do an offensive that would head due east 213 00:16:45.559 --> 00:16:51.840 into Baden as a first Foray, and that success there might bring Austria in 214 00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:56.360 or perhaps Italy as well. That didn't happen. It didn't happen before the 215 00:16:56.399 --> 00:17:00.840 war started, and it certainly didn't happen as the war began. France had 216 00:17:00.919 --> 00:17:06.279 some immediate reversals, and so and so as it and then Britain was. 217 00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:12.319 Britain actually, in a foreshadowing of nineteen fourteen, was watching very keenly to 218 00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:17.960 what happened in Belgium. They wanted to make sure Belgium remained neutral, as 219 00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:22.119 it did in this particular case, so they weren't particularly eager to join in 220 00:17:22.119 --> 00:17:27.119 the in the conflict either. Russia was looking for a moment to take an 221 00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:33.559 advantage of everyone else's distraction to try and renegotiate the terms around the Crimean War 222 00:17:33.759 --> 00:17:40.680 that had concluded about thirteen years earlier. So there was so nobody was particularly 223 00:17:40.720 --> 00:17:44.319 eager to join France. They didn't see them as particularly strong, although although 224 00:17:44.359 --> 00:17:47.759 they were much much stronger against Prussian than we might think, and I think 225 00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:52.599 we should unpack that a little bit, but but nobody was willing to join 226 00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:56.640 in the fight. And by the time, even within the first week of 227 00:17:56.680 --> 00:18:00.480 fighting, as France starts to retreat back into its elf, there was no 228 00:18:00.519 --> 00:18:04.400 way that the other countries were going to join on board. They were eager, 229 00:18:04.519 --> 00:18:08.720 however, as the war unfolded to bring the conflict to an end. 230 00:18:08.839 --> 00:18:14.400 They did not want to see Prussia become too strong, so they were looking 231 00:18:14.440 --> 00:18:18.480 for ways to help bring the two parties to the table and negotiate, and 232 00:18:18.519 --> 00:18:22.599 they were very happy to see that happen finally in January eighteen seventy one. 233 00:18:22.920 --> 00:18:26.599 Yeah, and then I wanted to talk a little bit about the sort of 234 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:32.160 relative strength of France versus Prussia, because as I was reading the book and 235 00:18:32.279 --> 00:18:37.359 paper strength it can be misleading but on paper they looked pretty close to me. 236 00:18:37.440 --> 00:18:40.960 And this is a this is a big conflict, by the way, 237 00:18:41.160 --> 00:18:45.079 Like the number of troops that are involved here are huge. You know, 238 00:18:45.160 --> 00:18:49.279 this isn't a small scale war by any stretch of the imagination. So I 239 00:18:49.319 --> 00:18:55.000 was hoping you could talk about that there's strengths on paper, but then also 240 00:18:56.079 --> 00:19:00.160 thinking about French weaknesses, there are some sort of hidden in weaknesses that you 241 00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:03.759 get into a little bit in the book, particularly when you start to think 242 00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:08.119 about support personnel and some of the things that maybe we don't think about oftentimes 243 00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:11.839 when we think about fighting a conflict that well, I mean, you need 244 00:19:11.880 --> 00:19:15.440 porters, you know, people who carry things you need, You need horses 245 00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:22.960 which didn't have You need like lots of auxiliaries who are non combatants often to 246 00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:26.440 make sure that the army can get to where it needs to and can fight 247 00:19:26.519 --> 00:19:32.160 most effectively. And that to me struck me as one of France's biggest weaknesses 248 00:19:32.240 --> 00:19:33.880 going into this. I'm sorry it's a two part question, but I'm confident 249 00:19:33.920 --> 00:19:37.279 we can get through it. That's all right, That's all right. I 250 00:19:37.319 --> 00:19:41.119 think there's so you mentioned the paper strength, and certainly this is a huge 251 00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:45.640 this is a huge conflict. This is a conflict where there were armies measuring 252 00:19:45.680 --> 00:19:49.480 in the hundreds of thousands. The total mobilized on each side was in the 253 00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:52.559 three to four hundred thousand. It evolved. Of course, over time. 254 00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:56.839 France kept getting bigger and bigger, they kept fielding more more men, but 255 00:19:56.880 --> 00:20:00.119 they were fielded in very different ways. So first of all, let's talk 256 00:20:00.160 --> 00:20:07.000 about the service model. In Prussia, they had universal conscription, which they 257 00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:11.279 were one of the first places to do that, and they had massive reserves 258 00:20:11.319 --> 00:20:14.319 of men who had been trained who could be called up, and they had 259 00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:18.039 a system of calling up men so that they basically had a postcard that just 260 00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:21.920 needed to be dated and sent out to men to say, come show up 261 00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:25.799 on this day at this place that was ready to go. Prussia, also, 262 00:20:25.839 --> 00:20:29.640 by the way, pioneered, they used of a dog tag during this 263 00:20:29.720 --> 00:20:33.640 conflict so they could keep track of their soldiers. On the French side, 264 00:20:33.680 --> 00:20:37.759 they were very much in the older model of having professional soldiers who served for 265 00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:41.279 a very long time, so they did have a lot of men that they 266 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:45.279 could call up. Many of them were posted throughout the country. Some of 267 00:20:45.319 --> 00:20:48.519 them were posted in their colonies, so they were in Africa and you know, 268 00:20:48.559 --> 00:20:52.079 needed to be shipped back onto the continent. They did not have the 269 00:20:53.359 --> 00:21:00.880 long they didn't have the conscript model that came later, like most countries adopted 270 00:21:00.920 --> 00:21:06.640 the conscription model after the Franco Prussian War. Instead, they did have the 271 00:21:06.680 --> 00:21:10.599 tradition though of the Levon mass that had dated back to the front the French 272 00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:14.359 Revolution, you know, to the seventeen ninety two, and so they did 273 00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:18.000 have this notion that if you did need to call people up, they would 274 00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:19.599 be called up and they'd be ready to go. There would be something about 275 00:21:19.720 --> 00:21:22.799 like the French alon that would lead them to be able to go up and 276 00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:26.599 fight in battle. So their work actually quite a few volunteers over the course 277 00:21:26.599 --> 00:21:30.079 of the war, and as the after the fall of Napoleon, which we'll 278 00:21:30.079 --> 00:21:33.279 get to, you know later, but as the war kind of dragged on, 279 00:21:33.319 --> 00:21:37.920 they were able to continually call up men. They just couldn't get trained 280 00:21:37.960 --> 00:21:42.960 in time to do anything significant in face of a well trained reserve army that 281 00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:48.000 Prussia was able to field. So that's just talking about sheer battle strength. 282 00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:52.680 Let's talk about you mentioned all the auxiliary of personnel, so stretcher bearers, 283 00:21:53.240 --> 00:22:00.640 medics, horses, pharmacists, all the kind of stuff apply. They just 284 00:22:00.680 --> 00:22:04.519 simply didn't have that organized In France. They were far far more doctors ready 285 00:22:04.559 --> 00:22:10.279 to go, who were attached to the Prussian Army, ready to actually to 286 00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:15.799 come into the field. So there's the personnel issue. French horses had been 287 00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:19.400 farmed out to farmers, and farmers weren't really eager to let the horses return 288 00:22:19.480 --> 00:22:22.440 to the army as the harvest was about to come in in the summer of 289 00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:27.359 eighteen seventy, so that was a struggle. But more importantly was that France 290 00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:33.920 did not have a concept of the separation between mobilization on the one hand and 291 00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:38.160 concentration on the other hand, And that was an insight that Prussia had been 292 00:22:38.200 --> 00:22:41.640 able to actually mobilize and put into effect in eighteen seventy. What do I 293 00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:47.200 mean by that? It means that you're not only you're not just sending soldiers 294 00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:49.720 and supplies and all the auxiliaries to the same location at the same time. 295 00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:55.400 Instead, you are making them mobile. You're getting them up and moving and 296 00:22:55.480 --> 00:23:00.400 going to the general area. But then you're concentrating them separately once they're actually 297 00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:04.319 there. France did not have this concept and instead they were trying to get 298 00:23:04.359 --> 00:23:07.440 all the men to go to supply depots, pick up their weapons, and 299 00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:11.480 go straight to the location where they would be deployed. And it created just 300 00:23:11.599 --> 00:23:15.720 mass confusion as soldiers were cris classing in the country, getting to their supply 301 00:23:15.839 --> 00:23:22.119 depot and then trying to get to another location. It was slower than Prussia, 302 00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:26.960 and more importantly, it was demoralizing. So whereas Prussia, Prussian soldiers 303 00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:30.680 and Bavarian soldiers are taking the train up to the frontier and then maybe they're 304 00:23:30.680 --> 00:23:34.880 marching for dozens of miles to get to the right place of concentration, they 305 00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:40.920 were able to do that with relative ease and relative organization, and they got 306 00:23:40.960 --> 00:23:45.559 there relatively well rested and ready to fight. For the French, it was 307 00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:51.359 not quite the same. It was much more confused. And then once the 308 00:23:51.400 --> 00:23:56.160 war actually starts to get underway, you know, I think it's it's fair 309 00:23:56.240 --> 00:23:59.640 to say, you know, France would have come into the conflict confident. 310 00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:03.720 Of course. You know, they have this strong military tradition stretching back to 311 00:24:03.880 --> 00:24:11.119 Napoleon and beyond. And again I think this is sometimes, especially in the 312 00:24:11.200 --> 00:24:15.720 United States, we get the post World War Two bias of a weak French 313 00:24:15.799 --> 00:24:22.400 military, but that simply isn't the case at all, and really isn't much 314 00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:26.160 of the case in that World War either. But the fact of the matter 315 00:24:26.319 --> 00:24:30.720 is is they felt I would say, they felt good coming into it, 316 00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:37.359 and man, does it unravel fast for them once the battles begin. As 317 00:24:37.400 --> 00:24:41.279 you mentioned, they're they're getting ready for this what they think will be an 318 00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:51.000 aggressive invasion into German territory, and by the sixth of August, that mirage 319 00:24:51.079 --> 00:24:53.960 has all but evaporated. So I wonder if you could just kind of talk 320 00:24:55.039 --> 00:25:02.839 about those few early battles and about how quickly France's position goes from feeling confident 321 00:25:03.279 --> 00:25:07.559 to on your heels. Absolutely, absolutely, Adam, I really appreciate you 322 00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:12.000 framing that around the stereotype that we have of the French army, because of 323 00:25:12.039 --> 00:25:18.359 course they dominated during the Napoleonic Wars and needed five other countries to band together 324 00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:22.319 to defeat them. So there's there's a lot more complexity in all those conflicts. 325 00:25:22.920 --> 00:25:26.720 And they were right to be confident. They had not only this large 326 00:25:26.799 --> 00:25:30.279 army that had been in the field for a long time, they had the 327 00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:33.519 superior rifle. They knew that the chaspoul, which could fight, which could 328 00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:40.000 shoot from a mile away with you know, remarkable accuracy, and really disturbed 329 00:25:40.599 --> 00:25:45.400 the German soldiers. They now the Germans had the superior cannon. They had 330 00:25:45.400 --> 00:25:48.400 the crupp cannon. That's that was, you know, bigger, heavier, 331 00:25:48.519 --> 00:25:53.279 more accurate. Their shells, the Prussian shells could explode upon impact, So 332 00:25:53.359 --> 00:25:59.759 that was better than the time refuses that the French had. But but there 333 00:25:59.799 --> 00:26:02.920 was good reason to think the French would be strong. And indeed in those 334 00:26:02.920 --> 00:26:07.039 first battles, you know, the first battles on the most the meaningful ones 335 00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:11.440 on August fourth, and then two on August six, they're all in on 336 00:26:11.680 --> 00:26:17.640 the Lorn and Alsace areas, right, France could have won those battles. 337 00:26:17.920 --> 00:26:21.799 They were close, especially the two on August six one and Laurent one in 338 00:26:21.880 --> 00:26:26.759 Alsace. It was it was these were close battles. They were just a 339 00:26:26.759 --> 00:26:30.559 little bit out numbered in one and in both cases there were crucial moments where 340 00:26:30.680 --> 00:26:36.279 if France had counterattacked, they might have prevailed, but instead the Germans just 341 00:26:36.400 --> 00:26:41.319 sort of kept coming. It wasn't that the Germans fought perfectly. They certainly 342 00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:45.920 had their moments of disorganization when one of their general Steinmetz kind of crosses in 343 00:26:45.960 --> 00:26:48.920 front of the army there, you know, one of their own armies, 344 00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:53.640 and they throws them off. But in the end, these these these two 345 00:26:53.640 --> 00:26:57.640 crucial battles just coincidentally happened to happen on August six. They neither of which 346 00:26:57.640 --> 00:27:02.200 were planned, by the way of which kind of they stumbled into each other 347 00:27:02.359 --> 00:27:07.000 and got you went from a small skirmish into a large scale battle. France 348 00:27:07.319 --> 00:27:12.000 ended up having to fall back, and after August six, this is where 349 00:27:12.079 --> 00:27:18.880 we started to see Napoleon the Third's leadership really coming into play too. Napoleon 350 00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:23.640 the Third ordered the wing that was in Alsassa, France, the wing under 351 00:27:23.920 --> 00:27:27.279 mac my Own, to fall back, and then he kind of changed his 352 00:27:27.319 --> 00:27:30.119 mind and said, well, maybe we should actually stay in Metz. So 353 00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:34.160 what ended up happening is the French army split into two and part of the 354 00:27:34.279 --> 00:27:37.759 army circled all the way back from Alsas all the way in the east, 355 00:27:38.039 --> 00:27:42.079 kind of swung to the south and around and then back halfway back to Paris. 356 00:27:42.119 --> 00:27:47.680 That's under mac my Own, and then the other half under Bezin ends 357 00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:52.119 up staying in the area around Metz. They no longer have contact with each 358 00:27:52.119 --> 00:27:55.680 other, and Napoleon the Third had gone back and forth about exactly what to 359 00:27:55.680 --> 00:27:57.799 do at that particular moment that led them to be split. Mac my own 360 00:27:57.839 --> 00:28:03.039 and Bezain. We're not welcome communicating with each other, and so and so. 361 00:28:03.240 --> 00:28:08.160 Now you've got these two armies, both of which had had had felt 362 00:28:08.200 --> 00:28:12.559 like they should have won, but in fact retreated after August six, and 363 00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:17.079 they're not in communication, and Napoleon the Third is not sure what to do. 364 00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:21.279 So this is a crucial part for for how you know, France goes 365 00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:27.359 into a retreat mode that they never recover from. Yeah, and I think 366 00:28:27.400 --> 00:28:30.880 it's it's interesting. So there's a couple of things worth remembering here if you're 367 00:28:30.920 --> 00:28:36.119 if you're listening to this. First of all, remember that we're in an 368 00:28:36.160 --> 00:28:38.880 age right now. You know, this is this is similar to the American 369 00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:41.599 Civil War. You know, we're only a few years removed from it, 370 00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:47.960 so that the technology in terms of communication is roughly similar. You know, 371 00:28:48.279 --> 00:28:55.519 it's in terms of knowing where units are. You're still very much dependent on 372 00:28:55.599 --> 00:29:00.000 messengers on horseback and people trying to get correspondence back and forth. And by 373 00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:04.119 the time you receive a message. Unless that unit has stayed put, it 374 00:29:04.440 --> 00:29:08.799 might not be necessarily the same place anymore. So you eat these When we 375 00:29:08.839 --> 00:29:14.119 talk about armies sort of stumbling into each other, you know, that happened 376 00:29:14.119 --> 00:29:17.839 all the time. That happened all the time in pre modern warfare. You 377 00:29:17.960 --> 00:29:21.680 kind of knew where the other side was. You were totally sure about it, 378 00:29:21.960 --> 00:29:25.680 And you know, you start what turns into a skirmishp The Gettysburg started 379 00:29:25.720 --> 00:29:26.960 as kind of a skirmish, you know, and it ends up being the 380 00:29:26.960 --> 00:29:30.680 most important battle of the American Civil War, And which is just the easiest 381 00:29:30.680 --> 00:29:33.000 one for me to compare these battles too, which is why I tend to 382 00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:37.279 go back and forth. But the reality is, and this is the other 383 00:29:37.400 --> 00:29:41.160 crucial thing that really I took away from the book, and I really hope 384 00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:44.680 that listeners and people who read the book takes away from it too, is 385 00:29:44.720 --> 00:29:48.839 that this is going the war itself is going to get remembered as this humiliating 386 00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:53.720 French defeat. But early on it was a coin flip. In a lot 387 00:29:53.720 --> 00:30:00.119 of these initial battles the French very easily could have won. It is not 388 00:30:00.200 --> 00:30:03.359 as though they marched up and the Germans just blasted them off the line and 389 00:30:03.400 --> 00:30:07.680 they took off running. That's not what happened. It was these were closed 390 00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:11.400 conflicts. They could have won some of some of those initial battles. And 391 00:30:11.599 --> 00:30:17.519 really, I mean, the question then comes to play, like Napoleon the 392 00:30:17.519 --> 00:30:21.599 Third is kind of operating as the overall commander here to the best of my 393 00:30:21.839 --> 00:30:26.559 knowledge, you know, Kaiservillehelm does not do sort of engage in the sort 394 00:30:26.599 --> 00:30:30.559 of the same playing with toys scenario to those toys soldiers on the map, 395 00:30:30.599 --> 00:30:36.359 and he's not doing that. So, I mean, how much blame should 396 00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:41.119 we put on Napoleon the Third for sort of the ultimate outcome in the way 397 00:30:41.119 --> 00:30:45.119 that everything's going to go here? Because I'm not the sort of person I 398 00:30:45.160 --> 00:30:48.240 don't ascribe to the great man theory of history very much, and I don't 399 00:30:48.279 --> 00:30:52.839 like to do that. But in reading the pages, it seems inescapable that 400 00:30:52.920 --> 00:30:59.880 he does deserve a significant amount of blame for this agreed, And it was 401 00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:03.000 not only because of what happened in the battle. You know, it's not 402 00:31:03.039 --> 00:31:07.279 just you know what happened right after August six, As I was mentioning, 403 00:31:07.039 --> 00:31:12.039 it's years of not setting up his army for success, of not necessarily promoting 404 00:31:12.079 --> 00:31:17.839 the most qualified individuals into leadership roles, but rather having a little bit of 405 00:31:17.880 --> 00:31:23.599 cronyism in terms of promotion. He also bears blame in terms of just as 406 00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:29.799 mobilization was happening, for changing how his armies were going to be organized, 407 00:31:29.880 --> 00:31:33.839 so that suddenly there was different chains of command that had to come together very 408 00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:37.400 very quickly, and so it wasn't always clear who was going to listen to 409 00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:41.519 whom. Even as this retreat is happening, as I was describing, he 410 00:31:41.599 --> 00:31:45.880 was trying to give more authority to Bezen, But even there he was clearly 411 00:31:45.920 --> 00:31:49.920 meddling, and Bezen didn't know whether he could actually make decisions or not. 412 00:31:52.160 --> 00:31:56.519 So, you know, leadership matters, and in this case it proved to 413 00:31:56.559 --> 00:32:00.400 be quite decisive. But on the other hand, there were also moments where 414 00:32:00.759 --> 00:32:05.640 just francen't didn't have the luck on their side. You know, if if 415 00:32:05.680 --> 00:32:08.960 there had been if there had just been sort of different responses in terms of 416 00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:14.440 who was available to those battles that weren't really planned in early August, maybe 417 00:32:14.440 --> 00:32:19.680 things would have the tide would have changed in a different direction. But but 418 00:32:19.759 --> 00:32:23.519 I do think that in this particular case, in terms of the the fact 419 00:32:23.599 --> 00:32:30.359 of French defeat Napoleon the third was decisive. Yeah, and I do think 420 00:32:30.359 --> 00:32:32.359 we have to remember, and you pointed it out earlier, that he has 421 00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:37.880 you have to imagine him with just this huge yoke around his neck all the 422 00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:42.480 time walking, because you know, he is related to the great Napoleon, 423 00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:46.359 you know, who marched armies across all of Europe. And it sometimes seems 424 00:32:46.400 --> 00:32:52.079 to me that you know, Napoleon, whether it's the Franco Prussian War or 425 00:32:52.160 --> 00:32:57.440 it's you know, the boondoggle into Mexico, is just trying to find ways 426 00:32:57.559 --> 00:33:01.240 to recapture some of that old spear. But he's not really it's not part 427 00:33:01.279 --> 00:33:05.519 of a big concerted strategy. It's just kind of like, well, here's 428 00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:07.640 this opportunity, we'll do this, and here's this going on, Well we'll 429 00:33:07.680 --> 00:33:12.720 do that, you know. And but he also, you know, when 430 00:33:12.759 --> 00:33:15.119 we get back to the doctor telegram and all that from the beginning from bes 431 00:33:15.160 --> 00:33:22.599 Mark, he has this real thin pride because of who he is, and 432 00:33:22.759 --> 00:33:28.119 he cannot suffer any sort of humiliation to those to that sort of respect, 433 00:33:28.160 --> 00:33:31.160 and so he gets really indecisive at times. And I you know, you 434 00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:36.119 could read biographies about this guy. It's he's an interesting he's an interesting guy, 435 00:33:36.319 --> 00:33:39.039 but you know, he definitely has some major weaknesses. So now I 436 00:33:39.119 --> 00:33:45.240 want to go forward and talk you talk about two key battles that take place 437 00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:52.039 on August sixteenth and eighteenth. And I never took French growing up, and 438 00:33:52.079 --> 00:33:54.960 so I'm gonna pronounce him as ro his own view and maybe Graviolette I might 439 00:33:54.960 --> 00:33:58.960 not be close on those, but I'm sure you'll correct me. And you 440 00:33:59.000 --> 00:34:00.880 know, you write that they rank or should rank among some of the most 441 00:34:00.880 --> 00:34:07.079 decisive and important battles in European history. And they're also extremely close. Again, 442 00:34:07.160 --> 00:34:10.800 this is not this is not a twenty seven to nothing German blowout. 443 00:34:10.880 --> 00:34:15.320 You know, this is a very close situation. So I was hoping you 444 00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:20.199 could talk about those battles, how close were they and why are they so 445 00:34:20.280 --> 00:34:24.440 important? So these are both battles that took place on the outskirts of Metz 446 00:34:25.159 --> 00:34:29.320 in August of eighteen seventy and these were on the French side. It was 447 00:34:29.360 --> 00:34:31.880 the Bezen's army who was engaged in this. Macma Own is already further west 448 00:34:31.880 --> 00:34:37.000 and not involved in them at all. So the battle that's known as Cressmview 449 00:34:37.400 --> 00:34:43.159 or martial Tour. It's named variously by the villages that were on the road 450 00:34:43.199 --> 00:34:46.679 heading out to Verdun. Happens on August sixteenth, and then the Battle of 451 00:34:46.760 --> 00:34:53.000 Kravalot on August eighteenth, eighteen seventy. These were large scale battles. Again, 452 00:34:53.719 --> 00:34:58.480 the first one was not particularly planned. It was it was one kind 453 00:34:58.480 --> 00:35:01.400 of a run to the guns, kind of a moment, and on the 454 00:35:01.480 --> 00:35:06.519 on the and and and again it was. It was. It was more 455 00:35:06.559 --> 00:35:10.599 on the strength of a lower level German commander who had run into some French 456 00:35:10.639 --> 00:35:15.519 and decided to actually engage in battle, and then the others kind of reluctantly 457 00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:21.679 got involved. The battle in August eighteenth was more planned. It was the 458 00:35:21.719 --> 00:35:28.559 first major engagement that was intended to happen on that day, and and and 459 00:35:28.559 --> 00:35:32.039 and it happened in a variety of different locations. There were three major eras, 460 00:35:32.079 --> 00:35:37.000 north, central and south at the Battle of Gravelot, and there were 461 00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:40.039 moments where it seemed because of different ravines and the ways that the Prussians were 462 00:35:40.039 --> 00:35:45.639 trying to attack and were being repelled by those French rifles the Chaspo, it 463 00:35:45.719 --> 00:35:51.039 seemed like the Prussians might lose that battle. It was only because of some 464 00:35:51.119 --> 00:35:55.079 late arrivals towards the end of the day that the Prussians were able to prevail, 465 00:35:55.239 --> 00:36:00.440 and the fact that the French under Besen were not ready to counterattack when 466 00:36:00.440 --> 00:36:04.039 they when they might have done so. Certainly, it's easy to be an 467 00:36:04.079 --> 00:36:06.719 arm chair general and say, oh, he should have countered attacked at four 468 00:36:06.760 --> 00:36:10.320 pm, and then maybe they would have made it. But that that's stuff 469 00:36:10.360 --> 00:36:14.400 to say. It's it's clear though Bezin as a commander. And by the 470 00:36:14.440 --> 00:36:16.400 way, the Napoleon the third was nowhere near these battles. He was he 471 00:36:16.440 --> 00:36:21.480 had already retreated further west to join macmi own. But during these battles, 472 00:36:21.480 --> 00:36:25.320 Bezen, who had just been promoted into this position of overseeing several, you 473 00:36:25.360 --> 00:36:31.000 know, uh, several armies together, he was a really great company commander. 474 00:36:31.400 --> 00:36:36.159 He was had physical courage, but he was not able to see the 475 00:36:36.199 --> 00:36:38.920 big picture and to try and and you know, shape where the army was 476 00:36:39.000 --> 00:36:45.599 going, and and and he'd many of his soldiers thought they won that battle. 477 00:36:45.079 --> 00:36:49.519 But then at the end of the day, the next morning he says, 478 00:36:49.559 --> 00:36:52.159 nope, we've got to retreat back to Metz. And so that was 479 00:36:52.199 --> 00:36:55.559 again a moment of demoralization, because it depends depending on what sector you in. 480 00:36:55.920 --> 00:37:00.360 You might have thought that you won that battle, but instead they're treating 481 00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:06.079 back into the city where they ended up being stuck for for over two months 482 00:37:06.559 --> 00:37:10.519 under siege. So it was that was a crucial turning point where now half 483 00:37:10.559 --> 00:37:14.960 the French army is stuck, the other half is further west and they're about 484 00:37:14.960 --> 00:37:19.239 to be caught in the Battle of Saudan. Yeah, and so now we 485 00:37:19.360 --> 00:37:24.239 have the French army is effectively split, and so which is not in a 486 00:37:24.280 --> 00:37:29.639 situation that you ever want to be in in terms of a military situation. 487 00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:35.440 And that takes us to sort of the crucial the Battle of Saddan and the 488 00:37:35.519 --> 00:37:40.079 capture and surrender of Napoleon the third. So I want you to I'd love 489 00:37:40.119 --> 00:37:46.199 to hear a little bit about that battle and how Napoleon winds up being forced 490 00:37:46.239 --> 00:37:50.880 I suppose to surrender at the end. And then I want to ask a 491 00:37:50.920 --> 00:37:52.480 sort of a follow up question to that, which is, you know, 492 00:37:53.000 --> 00:37:55.880 is the war? Why doesn't the war just end? Why doesn't the why 493 00:37:55.920 --> 00:37:59.639 doesn't the war just end there? Like we shouldn't. It seems like the 494 00:37:59.639 --> 00:38:02.599 wars should be over, Like with the surrender of that army and with the 495 00:38:02.639 --> 00:38:07.639 surrender of someone who is ostensibly the head of the government who is now captured 496 00:38:07.679 --> 00:38:10.800 by the other side, it seems like that should be the end of the 497 00:38:10.840 --> 00:38:15.159 track. But for whatever reason, it's not. So I was hoping you 498 00:38:15.239 --> 00:38:17.280 talk a little bit about the battle and like why it does, why this 499 00:38:17.320 --> 00:38:22.800 isn't just the penultimate moment. And so let's go back to mid August. 500 00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:24.800 It's August sixteenth back, you know, over in the east, Bezan is 501 00:38:24.800 --> 00:38:28.320 fighting at the Battle of Ranson Field, but they're not aware of this. 502 00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:34.639 Napoleon and macma own they have fallen back now to Shuttle and they are deciding 503 00:38:34.639 --> 00:38:37.119 what to do. So Shallon is right in between Paris and Metz, so 504 00:38:37.159 --> 00:38:39.800 it's you know, it's it's in the northern part of France. It's toward 505 00:38:39.840 --> 00:38:43.960 the east, but not all that far east, and so this is they're 506 00:38:44.039 --> 00:38:45.519 kind of restaging, debating what to do. They think, well, if 507 00:38:45.519 --> 00:38:50.079 we go back to Paris, that might be, you know, that might 508 00:38:50.079 --> 00:38:52.960 be a good move, but maybe that would then draw us too far away 509 00:38:52.960 --> 00:38:57.159 and we'd basically be retreating if we don't defend Paris. Then we're leaving Paris 510 00:38:57.159 --> 00:39:00.719 to be potentially captured. So the position of Paris is very is a crucial 511 00:39:00.760 --> 00:39:05.280 part of the debate. If Napoleon goes back to Paris, then he's basically 512 00:39:05.400 --> 00:39:08.280 seen as abandoning the army. But if he doesn't, then is he you 513 00:39:08.280 --> 00:39:12.880 know, he's opening himself up to being captured. So there was a there 514 00:39:12.920 --> 00:39:15.960 was a lot of debate about what they should do. Eventually, they do 515 00:39:15.119 --> 00:39:22.440 strike out, they're looking for they leave Shalon and they they they kind of 516 00:39:22.480 --> 00:39:25.760 go back. They zigzag across the countryside looking for supplies, trying to figure 517 00:39:25.760 --> 00:39:29.400 out where the German armies are. At this point. Basically, as you 518 00:39:29.440 --> 00:39:31.599 mentioned, it's hard to know where the armies are. Meanwhile, the German 519 00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:36.280 armies are thinking where are they going? We don't really we don't understand what's 520 00:39:36.320 --> 00:39:39.519 going on here. So for days there's there's a lot of confused back and 521 00:39:39.559 --> 00:39:45.079 forth. It's they're just trying to figure out what to do eventually, and 522 00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:47.159 I think this is if you if you know anything about French geography, right, 523 00:39:47.199 --> 00:39:52.079 the early battles are in Alsace and Laurent. This crucial battle at Sedan 524 00:39:52.280 --> 00:39:55.079 is way up against the Belgian border. It's nowhere near those early battles. 525 00:39:55.119 --> 00:39:59.639 How did they get there? Well, basically they're looking for supplies and they 526 00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:06.199 and then as German armies are heading west and north, they basically force France. 527 00:40:06.239 --> 00:40:09.880 They force mack my own with Napoleon the thirding train up against up into 528 00:40:09.920 --> 00:40:13.920 a corner. As they get closer to Belgium, they start to realize, 529 00:40:14.119 --> 00:40:16.280 we can't cross into Belgium. If we do that, then suddenly, you 530 00:40:16.320 --> 00:40:22.519 know, we risk total catastrophe. We're bringing the war into a neutral country. 531 00:40:22.559 --> 00:40:24.519 Britain might decide to intervene at that stage, like that would be a 532 00:40:24.559 --> 00:40:30.079 disaster. So they end up they end up after some other skirmishes and you 533 00:40:30.079 --> 00:40:34.320 know, trying to break out toward the east, you know, maybe thinking 534 00:40:34.320 --> 00:40:37.039 they might connect with Bazan, but they don't really know what's going on with 535 00:40:37.119 --> 00:40:39.719 him. They end up around Sadon. Now Sadan is a fortress city, 536 00:40:39.760 --> 00:40:45.800 but it's a basically a demoated fortress city. It's in a floodplain. There's 537 00:40:46.079 --> 00:40:51.639 the river, there's the there's very marshy, marshy areas to the south, 538 00:40:52.880 --> 00:40:58.360 and much of the French army ends up being kind of within this fortress and 539 00:40:58.639 --> 00:41:02.880 in the immediate environ well, the German armies have by now kind of split 540 00:41:02.920 --> 00:41:07.960 into two branches and they are encircling the entirety of this fortress area. Not 541 00:41:08.079 --> 00:41:13.679 that the Germans really know that that's happening. The rank and file soldiers, 542 00:41:13.960 --> 00:41:16.320 you know, they start marching. Some of them were going up north around 543 00:41:16.360 --> 00:41:21.400 the east side. I'm going up north around the west side. As as 544 00:41:21.440 --> 00:41:24.000 they marched, they suddenly realized, wait, we're hearing some noises. Oh, 545 00:41:24.039 --> 00:41:27.800 it's the other side of our army. We're starting to connect. We're 546 00:41:27.880 --> 00:41:37.519 encircling them. Okay, so so so the with the Prussian But over the 547 00:41:37.559 --> 00:41:40.199 course of late August, all the armies are kind of encircling around Sedan. 548 00:41:40.920 --> 00:41:45.559 The Prussians have brought their cannon. They have set up literally hundreds of cannon 549 00:41:45.679 --> 00:41:49.159 to the south and then eventually up around to the east and the west that 550 00:41:49.320 --> 00:41:55.079 then connect and on the day, on the morning of September first, the 551 00:41:55.480 --> 00:42:00.079 you know, the Bavarians over in the north, the south east triangle start 552 00:42:00.159 --> 00:42:04.800 the conflict in a suburb called Base, which ends up getting that very brunt 553 00:42:04.840 --> 00:42:08.599 of a very vicious battle. And the Prussian armies had been circled the rest 554 00:42:08.639 --> 00:42:14.880 of Sadan, and as the day went on, the French increasingly were backed 555 00:42:14.960 --> 00:42:17.639 up against each other. They were backed into corners, they were getting shot 556 00:42:17.639 --> 00:42:22.920 at from multiple sides. The Prussian cannon were able to continually target for for 557 00:42:23.039 --> 00:42:28.559 hours and hours on end, just making you know, being in say like 558 00:42:28.960 --> 00:42:32.360 a cops in the woods, you're just a sitting duck for the French art 559 00:42:32.719 --> 00:42:38.320 or for the Prussian art chillery. By the end of the day, Napoleon 560 00:42:38.440 --> 00:42:44.559 Thory realizes he needs to surrender. He is indeed inside the fortress of Sa'adan, 561 00:42:44.679 --> 00:42:47.079 which the Germans were not aware of. They were surprised to learn that 562 00:42:47.079 --> 00:42:52.199 he had put himself in that position, but but there he was. The 563 00:42:52.480 --> 00:42:59.199 French have to They decided to surrender, and the next day, as negotiations 564 00:42:59.199 --> 00:43:01.400 happened, Napoleon the Third ends up meeting first with Bismarck, where he's kind 565 00:43:01.400 --> 00:43:06.440 of reprimanded for being such an idiot basically, and then he meets with with 566 00:43:07.159 --> 00:43:13.199 with a king, with with Wilhelm and Bismarck ass are you surrendering yourself? 567 00:43:13.920 --> 00:43:16.639 Are you surrendering the army, or are you surrendering all together? And he 568 00:43:16.679 --> 00:43:21.960 says he's just learning himself in his army, and he's not surrending for France 569 00:43:22.039 --> 00:43:25.000 altogether. I think he just he thinks Bezen might break out again. He 570 00:43:25.039 --> 00:43:29.400 doesn't, he's not fully aware of what's happened to Bezen at this point that 571 00:43:29.440 --> 00:43:32.960 he's trapped in Mets, and he thinks, he thinks it Francis might have 572 00:43:34.239 --> 00:43:38.639 some kind of a chance to rescue itself from this, from this terrible outing. 573 00:43:39.639 --> 00:43:44.960 He's still in political power, and he's allowed to he's allowed to escape 574 00:43:44.960 --> 00:43:47.800 on his own reconnaissance, and he ends up later going into to England. 575 00:43:49.840 --> 00:43:53.320 But just a couple of days later in Paris, once the news of this 576 00:43:53.400 --> 00:43:57.840 disaster has reached them, on the night of September the third, the very 577 00:43:57.840 --> 00:44:01.119 next morning, September fourth, there's an uprising in Paris, a very peaceful 578 00:44:01.199 --> 00:44:07.920 uprising in which they declare themselves now a republic, a new republic, and 579 00:44:07.840 --> 00:44:15.559 the leadership of that republic, which are basically moderate Democrats, small d Democrats 580 00:44:15.599 --> 00:44:19.840 in France, Parisian based, they decide, we have got to fight on. 581 00:44:20.199 --> 00:44:23.079 There's no way that we're going to allow France to be dismembered, you 582 00:44:23.119 --> 00:44:29.239 know, with this army right in the middle of US and even though basically 583 00:44:29.280 --> 00:44:35.440 the entirety of the French army that had started in late July was either captured 584 00:44:35.519 --> 00:44:39.840 at Sudan eighty thousand prisoners of war taken that in that single day, or 585 00:44:40.519 --> 00:44:46.239 they were bottled up in Mets with Bezen, the French leadership nevertheless said we've 586 00:44:46.239 --> 00:44:50.760 got to fight on, and they did fight on. They fought for another 587 00:44:50.880 --> 00:44:55.760 four and a half months before finally accepting defeat. Yeah, it's interesting. 588 00:44:55.760 --> 00:44:59.559 There's a couple of things here that you know. First of also, you 589 00:44:59.639 --> 00:45:02.960 sort of have this double envelopment problem. You've got have the army and Mets 590 00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:07.840 which is now surrounded, which you know Napoleon doesn't know. Sure. Then 591 00:45:07.880 --> 00:45:13.880 you've got the other half in Sadan also surrendered, so you'll you lose all 592 00:45:13.920 --> 00:45:19.639 of your effective fighting force. Now, France is a very populous country. 593 00:45:19.280 --> 00:45:24.880 They have this long standing tradition going back to the revolution of the Leaveyamas, 594 00:45:25.199 --> 00:45:29.440 that they can we'll just call up more people, We'll just call up more 595 00:45:29.480 --> 00:45:34.639 people. This this never ending sort of a theory. So there's this idea 596 00:45:34.679 --> 00:45:37.199 that they're going to be able to fight on. That's one takeaway. The 597 00:45:37.199 --> 00:45:39.519 other takeaway I have from this is I was trying to I was trying to 598 00:45:39.559 --> 00:45:44.920 go back and look at the history books to see, Okay, Napoleon the 599 00:45:45.000 --> 00:45:47.880 third is captured, and he's the he's the head of state at the time 600 00:45:47.880 --> 00:45:52.559 that he's captured. I'm pretty sure this is the I think this is the 601 00:45:52.679 --> 00:45:59.079 last time in history that we have a head of state who's maybe dumb enough 602 00:45:59.320 --> 00:46:01.480 to be with the army. I mean, sure, as our Nicholas goes 603 00:46:01.559 --> 00:46:06.639 to the front and you know quotation marks during World War One, but he's 604 00:46:06.679 --> 00:46:10.000 never dumb enough to be like up at the front with the army, you 605 00:46:10.039 --> 00:46:14.400 know, and you know that also just never really works out that well. 606 00:46:14.440 --> 00:46:15.679 I mean, Bismarck might be thinking, well, this is gonna be great. 607 00:46:15.719 --> 00:46:19.320 I'm gonna get all this stuff, and like capturing the head of state, 608 00:46:19.360 --> 00:46:22.000 it turns out if you go back, it doesn't it doesn't actually get 609 00:46:22.039 --> 00:46:24.559 you that much. I mean, even Charles the fifth captures France is the 610 00:46:24.599 --> 00:46:28.519 first in the sixteenth century. It doesn't get anything from it. He gets 611 00:46:28.519 --> 00:46:31.360 a lot of empty promises, but he doesn't just like own France as a 612 00:46:31.400 --> 00:46:35.280 result, you know, because people like, no, we don't don't care. 613 00:46:36.440 --> 00:46:39.079 So I think that's interesting. But I am curious from Bismarck's point of 614 00:46:39.159 --> 00:46:40.880 view, and I love the part of the book, by the way, 615 00:46:40.920 --> 00:46:45.960 where he is just he does he just kind of like Belittle's Napoleon the Third 616 00:46:45.000 --> 00:46:47.079 for being, you know, an idiot, like what were you doing? 617 00:46:47.159 --> 00:46:52.519 Like this is your fault, like that we're all here and like why why 618 00:46:52.519 --> 00:46:54.159 should it be nice to you? Sort of a thing like you lost the 619 00:46:54.199 --> 00:47:00.920 game, like get over it. Are his war aim still the same at 620 00:47:01.000 --> 00:47:07.000 this point or does he now shift into Okay, half the French army is 621 00:47:07.039 --> 00:47:12.519 surrendered, the other half is effectively about to be surrounded in Metz. Paris 622 00:47:12.599 --> 00:47:15.360 is seemingly wide open, like I might be able to get a lot more 623 00:47:15.400 --> 00:47:21.360 out of this than I originally thought. He does want he does start working 624 00:47:21.440 --> 00:47:27.119 much more explicitly to capture part of France at this point, right, I 625 00:47:27.119 --> 00:47:29.920 mean, it's always been it's always been in the back of his mind, 626 00:47:29.960 --> 00:47:35.679 and certainly some people had been talking about capturing Alsace and part of lorent parts 627 00:47:35.679 --> 00:47:39.079 that had been part of German states up until the sixteen eighties. During the 628 00:47:39.079 --> 00:47:44.679 reign of Louis the fourteenth, they were captured and integrated into France, so 629 00:47:44.760 --> 00:47:49.719 almost two hundred years of being owned by France and previously had gone back and 630 00:47:49.760 --> 00:47:53.360 forth in all kinds of different ways. So it becomes much more explicit that 631 00:47:53.360 --> 00:47:58.960 that Bismarck is seeking to gain these territories and incorporate them into the German Empire, 632 00:47:58.960 --> 00:48:00.679 and of course that is what happens. But at this stage the French 633 00:48:00.719 --> 00:48:06.280 are are absolutely opposed to this. They see these territories as very much French 634 00:48:06.760 --> 00:48:08.480 and have been for a very long time. You know that many of the 635 00:48:09.760 --> 00:48:15.719 population is very mixed in terms of speaking French, speaking German, having Protestant 636 00:48:15.760 --> 00:48:19.360 allegiances, Catholic allegiancies. And in no way, by the way, does 637 00:48:19.440 --> 00:48:23.440 the language or the religion necessarily lead to where your heart lies in terms of 638 00:48:24.000 --> 00:48:28.480 where where you where you see yourself as more French or more German. A 639 00:48:28.519 --> 00:48:34.360 lot of people saw themselves as Alsatian Alsatian, and so it's a very complicated 640 00:48:34.440 --> 00:48:37.159 area in that in that regard, but nevertheless, Bismarck does start being more 641 00:48:37.199 --> 00:48:43.239 explicit about that he's not interested in taking overall of France. That's, you 642 00:48:43.239 --> 00:48:45.280 know, that's a very different World War two kind of an aim. He's 643 00:48:45.320 --> 00:48:50.199 not interested in dismembering France. He doesn't want to, you know, he 644 00:48:50.519 --> 00:48:52.880 wants to become the dominant power in Europe. But he also recognizes that he 645 00:48:52.920 --> 00:48:57.280 cannot upset the balance of power too much, or else the arrest of the 646 00:48:57.320 --> 00:49:00.480 European countries will will getting up against him. So he's savvy about that. 647 00:49:00.920 --> 00:49:04.760 But certainly at this moment in September, he starts to think, Okay, 648 00:49:04.880 --> 00:49:09.159 we can probably take some more territory. Yeah, And I think he's realistic 649 00:49:09.199 --> 00:49:13.199 and he's sort of objective in the way that he does things, and you 650 00:49:13.239 --> 00:49:15.239 know, he does recognize that there needs to be a balance of power in 651 00:49:15.280 --> 00:49:20.079 Europe because if you do upset it too far, I mean, yes, 652 00:49:20.199 --> 00:49:22.840 maybe you've defeated France, but there's still Russia, There's still there's still Great 653 00:49:22.840 --> 00:49:27.360 Britain, there's still Italy, There's still plenty of other states that could getting 654 00:49:27.400 --> 00:49:30.440 up on. New Austria is still over there, that could potentially throw their 655 00:49:30.440 --> 00:49:35.400 hat in the ring. Now, the siege of Paris is months long. 656 00:49:36.039 --> 00:49:38.239 It's horrific in many ways, shapes are formed, but I want to make 657 00:49:38.280 --> 00:49:42.639 sure we get time to get to the end of the wars. I think 658 00:49:42.679 --> 00:49:45.679 there's some interesting things to talk about there before we run out of time. 659 00:49:45.119 --> 00:49:50.800 But one thing that I was curious about was just and you do a great 660 00:49:50.840 --> 00:49:55.519 job in the book talking about the impact on civilians both in Paris and in 661 00:49:55.559 --> 00:49:58.639 the countryside and so on and so forth. So it's a huge part of 662 00:49:58.639 --> 00:50:00.840 the book, and I don't want to mislead people that it isn't, so 663 00:50:01.280 --> 00:50:05.599 just acknowledge for a moment if you're listening that I'm just kind of punting. 664 00:50:05.599 --> 00:50:07.760 I'm going forward a little bit, Okay, I am always I was curious 665 00:50:07.760 --> 00:50:12.760 when I was reading the book, like, Paris is big. Paris is 666 00:50:12.800 --> 00:50:16.760 a really big city, and for the German Army, no matter how large 667 00:50:16.760 --> 00:50:21.800 it is, until Mets surrenders, they still have to keep Mets under lock 668 00:50:21.880 --> 00:50:27.079 and key as well. So how is it that the Parisians the French aren't 669 00:50:27.119 --> 00:50:30.679 able to break out at any point? I mean, it seems like they 670 00:50:30.719 --> 00:50:34.039 have the numbers, but they're just not able to do it. Well. 671 00:50:34.079 --> 00:50:37.880 They have the numbers, but again they're not a very trained army. So 672 00:50:37.119 --> 00:50:42.559 it is indeed, it's a it's a military achievement in itself that the Prussian 673 00:50:42.599 --> 00:50:46.559 and the German armies are able to entirely encircle Paris, which you know, 674 00:50:47.000 --> 00:50:51.920 is a massive undertaking. They finally kind of meet on September nineteenth, and 675 00:50:52.239 --> 00:50:54.119 Paris is then under siege until the end of the war in January, so 676 00:50:54.159 --> 00:51:01.320 it's a long cold winter of siege. Paris has more wise a national Guard, 677 00:51:01.960 --> 00:51:07.199 national guard units which had been created back during the Revolution of eighteen forty 678 00:51:07.199 --> 00:51:10.239 eight, sort of a sense of citizen guards, but they weren't very well 679 00:51:10.280 --> 00:51:13.639 trained. In fact, they would go home at night, as many of 680 00:51:13.679 --> 00:51:16.559 them would go back to their their actual you know, civilian places of residence, 681 00:51:17.519 --> 00:51:22.920 and so they were they were minimally trained. They were certainly not particularly 682 00:51:22.000 --> 00:51:28.000 well able to undertake a fight out to break through a professional army. And 683 00:51:28.039 --> 00:51:32.719 not only that, but Paris itself was was starting to become politically very much, 684 00:51:34.440 --> 00:51:37.559 very divided, and divided very much on the left. So of course, 685 00:51:37.119 --> 00:51:40.400 you know, once Napoleon the Third is overthrown, most Parisians were not 686 00:51:40.480 --> 00:51:44.039 a big fan of Napoleon the third, you know, and hadn't been for 687 00:51:44.039 --> 00:51:45.960 for decades. I mean, keep in mind, this is a man who 688 00:51:46.320 --> 00:51:52.000 had been elected president in eighteen forty eight but then had dismantled the Republic within 689 00:51:52.079 --> 00:51:57.159 a few years, so he basically became an authoritarian leader and was not popular 690 00:51:57.159 --> 00:52:00.840 among those who still harbored, you know, desires for revolution future. But 691 00:52:00.920 --> 00:52:05.119 then there's there's there's there's those who want a moderate republic and those who want 692 00:52:05.400 --> 00:52:07.880 some kind of something more radical. In the nineteenth century, there's all different 693 00:52:07.960 --> 00:52:15.199 radical ideas. So Parisian neighborhoods were starting to have serious tension against each other, 694 00:52:15.679 --> 00:52:17.599 and that didn't help the cause of the Government of National Defense, which 695 00:52:17.639 --> 00:52:23.960 was a far more moderate kind of a government. Now, I want to 696 00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:28.679 sort of turn to the end of the war, but one of the things 697 00:52:28.679 --> 00:52:30.719 that I was struck by when I got to this portion of the book was 698 00:52:30.760 --> 00:52:36.679 that for a conflict that's Austin forgotten, the losses are by no means insignificant 699 00:52:36.920 --> 00:52:38.920 at all. I mean, you list in the book one hundred and thirty 700 00:52:38.960 --> 00:52:44.920 six thousand French soldiers killed in action, declared missing, or died of wounds. 701 00:52:44.960 --> 00:52:49.039 You know, at Mets alone, we're talking about thirty five thousand people 702 00:52:49.159 --> 00:52:52.480 dying of dysentery or typhus. You know, these are you know, German 703 00:52:52.559 --> 00:52:58.440 losses one hundred and seventeen thousand casualties. These are big numbers. You know, 704 00:52:58.480 --> 00:53:01.000 we're not talking about a few hundred people on either side here. But 705 00:53:01.519 --> 00:53:06.840 clearly Germany wins the war. So in a short term perspective, what does 706 00:53:06.880 --> 00:53:13.920 that mean? What do they get sure? At that point? So they 707 00:53:14.519 --> 00:53:16.400 during the course of the fall in the winter, as I mentioned before, 708 00:53:16.679 --> 00:53:22.880 Bismarck has been negotiating with the South German states. They played off of each 709 00:53:22.880 --> 00:53:25.280 other, played against them against each other to get terms, to agree to 710 00:53:25.360 --> 00:53:30.280 declare a German Empire, which they do in the Hall of Mirrors at Versai 711 00:53:30.119 --> 00:53:37.719 in January of eighteen seventy one, very cold day, not a warm ceremony, 712 00:53:37.400 --> 00:53:40.360 but but it's now, it's a it's a it's a unified Germany. 713 00:53:42.079 --> 00:53:45.920 They get the territories of Alsace and La Run. They get a five billion 714 00:53:45.000 --> 00:53:52.000 franc indemnity from France, which was actually quite in keeping with what had happened 715 00:53:52.039 --> 00:53:55.760 before and actually also what happened at the Treaty of Versailles in nineteen after World 716 00:53:55.840 --> 00:54:01.239 War One. It was a similar scale actually, but but France managed to 717 00:54:01.239 --> 00:54:05.239 pay that off within a few years. They took out a lot of loans. 718 00:54:05.239 --> 00:54:08.679 They bounced back from from the war, financially, But as you mentioned, 719 00:54:08.760 --> 00:54:13.800 there was large numbers of casuals. If you compare they, you know, 720 00:54:13.840 --> 00:54:17.840 the almost one hundred forty thousand French soldiers who died in that conflict compared 721 00:54:17.880 --> 00:54:22.519 to the one point four French soldiers who died during World War One in a 722 00:54:22.599 --> 00:54:25.440 much longer conflict. It the Franco Prussian War was only six months long. 723 00:54:27.400 --> 00:54:30.079 It was it was an absolutely devastating conflict. And this was one where where 724 00:54:31.159 --> 00:54:37.239 on both sides memorialization of those who died, particularly soldiers, but a little 725 00:54:37.239 --> 00:54:43.239 bit civilians as well. In certain cases, you start to see monuments, 726 00:54:43.239 --> 00:54:47.840 you start to see names being chanted, You start to see more anniversary events 727 00:54:47.920 --> 00:54:52.719 happening after this war in a way that like during the Napoleonic Wars, soldiers 728 00:54:52.760 --> 00:54:55.480 died where they you know, they were buried where they fell, and they 729 00:54:55.480 --> 00:54:59.760 were not brought back home. You start to see that happening after the Franco 730 00:54:59.760 --> 00:55:04.920 p War. So then and thinking more like long term then, and this 731 00:55:04.960 --> 00:55:07.519 is going to be our last question because we're running out of time, But 732 00:55:07.920 --> 00:55:12.039 I'm just curious about sort of two things like what did what did these countries 733 00:55:12.119 --> 00:55:15.519 or these generals sort of learn from this conflict in a way that it would 734 00:55:15.840 --> 00:55:19.039 you know, sort of change their thinking going into World War One, and 735 00:55:19.079 --> 00:55:22.199 then you know, ultimately, and this is a tough question to answer, 736 00:55:22.320 --> 00:55:25.519 but is there any way in which sort of the Franco Prussian War is sort 737 00:55:25.519 --> 00:55:30.559 of a prelude to World War One in that it sort of makes World War 738 00:55:30.639 --> 00:55:36.159 one a more sort of likely historical event, It makes it more possible and 739 00:55:36.239 --> 00:55:39.880 imaginable. I don't want to draw two direct aligne between the Franco Prussian War 740 00:55:39.920 --> 00:55:43.599 and World War One. Sometimes people want to say, oh, Francis wanted 741 00:55:43.599 --> 00:55:45.480 to revenge against Germany and that's what led to World War One. That's far 742 00:55:45.480 --> 00:55:49.119 too simplistic. It was forty four years later, a lot of things had 743 00:55:49.199 --> 00:55:52.639 changed. Most people were not looking for war for that reason. But what 744 00:55:52.760 --> 00:55:58.639 I where I really see the connections. One is, as I mentioned, 745 00:55:58.719 --> 00:56:02.679 the change in scription models. So you have these massive national based armies, 746 00:56:02.880 --> 00:56:07.760 and in the Frenco Prussian War you start to see both on the French side 747 00:56:07.760 --> 00:56:10.079 and the German side, people talking about this war as a conflict between nations. 748 00:56:10.119 --> 00:56:14.400 Even though it had started as this really kind of old fashioned dynastic conflict, 749 00:56:14.559 --> 00:56:16.599 it becomes a war between nations, and that's a harbinger for the twentieth 750 00:56:16.599 --> 00:56:21.599 century. But I would also suggest that the way that civilians were incorporated in 751 00:56:21.639 --> 00:56:25.719 this war, you start to start to see some connections between the Frenco Prussian 752 00:56:25.760 --> 00:56:30.639 War and the World Wars. First of all, that the French tried to 753 00:56:30.679 --> 00:56:35.000 expel, or at least move out of Paris Germans because they saw them as 754 00:56:35.079 --> 00:56:39.039 national enemies. That's a new treatment of civilians. You also see that civilians 755 00:56:39.079 --> 00:56:45.440 are finding themselves having to deal with without any real preparation. They're dealing with 756 00:56:45.480 --> 00:56:49.079 the invading armies and really don't know what to do. The Prussians have no 757 00:56:49.559 --> 00:56:53.679 quarter for anybody who's a sniper or any civilian who tries to raise arms against 758 00:56:53.679 --> 00:56:58.519 them, And whereas the French have this tradition of guerrilla warfare, of fighting 759 00:56:59.000 --> 00:57:04.639 fighting against an invaded army, and they find themselves very much the targets oppression, 760 00:57:04.960 --> 00:57:08.639 vengeance when that happens. So while we don't see anything near what happens 761 00:57:08.639 --> 00:57:12.519 to civilians in World War One, and certainly not World War two, you 762 00:57:12.559 --> 00:57:15.199 do start to see the sort of like the horrors of what happens to civilians 763 00:57:15.239 --> 00:57:21.400 that get drawn into war, start to be more serious, less you know, 764 00:57:21.440 --> 00:57:28.079 even less recompense when when those things happen. Yeah, and you can 765 00:57:28.119 --> 00:57:30.239 start to see how if you do, because it's only a six month war, 766 00:57:30.559 --> 00:57:32.840 and so you can start to see like, well, if the time 767 00:57:32.840 --> 00:57:37.159 period was expanded out, you know, the sort of trauma that individuals would 768 00:57:37.199 --> 00:57:40.440 have to suffer through is exponential at that point. And I do think that 769 00:57:40.440 --> 00:57:44.559 that's one of the key sort of decisive changes that we've got going forward. 770 00:57:45.000 --> 00:57:46.159 Well, we're out of time here, but I mean, was it first 771 00:57:46.199 --> 00:57:50.159 of all? Was there anything else that was there anything that I desperately missed 772 00:57:50.239 --> 00:57:52.079 that we needed to that we need to touch on? Now, this has 773 00:57:52.119 --> 00:57:54.679 been a great interview, Adam. It's been a real plied to talk with 774 00:57:54.760 --> 00:57:59.199 somebody who really knows and understands all all these great issues. I really appreciate 775 00:57:59.199 --> 00:58:01.239 the conversation. Oh yeah, it's been great. It's been great, And 776 00:58:01.280 --> 00:58:05.519 I hope people pick up a copy of the book. It's very well done. 777 00:58:05.800 --> 00:58:09.519 And also I just hope that people start to collectively recognize the importance of 778 00:58:09.559 --> 00:58:12.159 this conflict going forward.