WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.000 --> 00:00:11.160 Callaroga Shark Media. I have quite the treat for you today. It was 2 00:00:11.240 --> 00:00:15.080 quite the treat for me. Mark Malkoff is my guest. Mark is the 3 00:00:15.119 --> 00:00:19.320 host of the Inside Late Night podcast. It's tied to the Late Night or 4 00:00:19.399 --> 00:00:23.120 website that I'm a big fan of. He also used to host the Carson 5 00:00:23.199 --> 00:00:26.960 Podcast all about Johnny Carson. I was a listener to that one, and 6 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:29.519 when I saw Mark had this new podcast, I reached out to him. 7 00:00:29.640 --> 00:00:31.120 I was like, hey, man, will you give me some time? 8 00:00:31.120 --> 00:00:34.039 I asked him for half an hour. We talked for an hour here, 9 00:00:34.280 --> 00:00:37.719 and then afterwards I think we talked for another ten minutes. I loved this 10 00:00:37.880 --> 00:00:41.679 conversation. I hope you enjoy it as much as I do. Again. 11 00:00:41.840 --> 00:00:46.280 Inside Late Night is Mark's podcast. It is fantastic. The website is Late 12 00:00:46.399 --> 00:00:49.000 Night Or. Some of the guests he's had so far, Robert Smigel, 13 00:00:49.000 --> 00:00:53.719 who is fantastic. Spike Ferenston, who you probably don't know his name, 14 00:00:53.759 --> 00:00:56.799 but he's been in the Seinfeld Camp. His name's come up a little bit 15 00:00:56.840 --> 00:01:00.920 recently with the pop Tarts movie. The official Description. Mark Malcoff, host 16 00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:03.560 of the Johnny Carson Dean Podcast, The Carson Podcast, explores late night television 17 00:01:03.840 --> 00:01:07.439 past and present. Again, to be clear, this is a new podcast. 18 00:01:07.480 --> 00:01:11.120 The Carson Podcast, as we talked about, went almost four hundred episodes. 19 00:01:11.159 --> 00:01:14.159 This is a new podcast that talks about SNL, Letterman, Conan, 20 00:01:14.200 --> 00:01:18.120 and Moore, presented by Latenighter dot Com. Guests will include people who appeared 21 00:01:18.120 --> 00:01:19.640 on those shows, cast members, writers, staff, and crew. Yes, 22 00:01:19.760 --> 00:01:23.920 so far have been Rachel Dratch, Robert Smigel, who's fantastic, and 23 00:01:23.200 --> 00:01:26.040 Spike Ferinston. And he talked about a bunch of big guests that they've got 24 00:01:26.079 --> 00:01:32.439 coming up. Here is my conversation with Mark Malkoff. You don't seem old 25 00:01:32.560 --> 00:01:34.760 enough to be a Carson fan. I won't ask you how old you are, 26 00:01:34.799 --> 00:01:40.159 but I'll go first. I'm fifty four and Carson was the thing I 27 00:01:40.239 --> 00:01:44.040 watched as a killed time until Letterman came on. As time went on, 28 00:01:44.120 --> 00:01:48.359 I got more into Johnny and we can talk about that. But why are 29 00:01:48.359 --> 00:01:51.120 you such a Carson fan? You know, I was a fan of the 30 00:01:51.239 --> 00:01:55.680 genre, but definitely Carson was this guy that just fascinated me in terms of 31 00:01:55.719 --> 00:02:00.239 his longevity, in terms of his likability, that he could, you know, 32 00:02:00.280 --> 00:02:02.480 talk to the A listers like Audrey Heppern and even though he got very 33 00:02:02.560 --> 00:02:07.360 nervous with her and Jimmy Stewart and Hope and then be talking to kids, 34 00:02:07.680 --> 00:02:12.719 and then he's with animals and then civilians, which were people just you know 35 00:02:12.759 --> 00:02:15.879 that had never even a lot of them out of their hometown and never been 36 00:02:15.919 --> 00:02:19.560 on an airplane, and just he was able just to be likable and make 37 00:02:19.599 --> 00:02:23.319 people feel comfortable. And I think that that's why his success was. He 38 00:02:23.479 --> 00:02:27.319 just played to Middle America, he played to the cities, and I in 39 00:02:27.400 --> 00:02:31.360 terms of a host, in terms of his skill set as a listener, 40 00:02:31.479 --> 00:02:37.159 I don't think anybody has come remotely close. There's a lot of great hosts 41 00:02:37.199 --> 00:02:39.599 and things. But I was just always fascinated by him, and then I 42 00:02:39.639 --> 00:02:45.319 would hear that he was this other guy, and I just as growing up 43 00:02:45.319 --> 00:02:50.280 as a kid, I just was really fascinated by what he might have been 44 00:02:50.319 --> 00:02:53.479 off camera versus on camera. And then I would watch it as a kid 45 00:02:53.520 --> 00:02:54.919 with I mean, I don't know, six seven with my dad and he 46 00:02:55.280 --> 00:03:00.840 would tell me these interviews were actually kind of screw a little bit, and 47 00:03:00.840 --> 00:03:04.479 it baffled me. I just couldn't believe. I thought this was all just 48 00:03:04.560 --> 00:03:07.240 you know them talking back and forth. Famous people are always witty, and 49 00:03:08.240 --> 00:03:12.000 I just was wondering, how do you get a job like that to be 50 00:03:12.039 --> 00:03:15.879 the pre said that somebody would pre interview it. Just all these things what 51 00:03:15.919 --> 00:03:17.840 went on behind the show. And I've always just been into him. But 52 00:03:19.159 --> 00:03:21.919 I think his stuff a lot of it still holds up. You know, 53 00:03:21.960 --> 00:03:24.680 he's been off the air, what now thirty two years. It's crazy that 54 00:03:24.719 --> 00:03:30.280 it's thirty two years. I have Upstairs. I stole the title from it 55 00:03:30.319 --> 00:03:32.520 was the TV Guide cover. I have a VHS that I labeled Johnny's Last 56 00:03:32.560 --> 00:03:35.800 Jam, which was what the TV Guide is, Show me too, I've 57 00:03:35.800 --> 00:03:38.960 got Johnny's Last Show. In Jay's first show with the Purple Show, Yeah, 58 00:03:38.960 --> 00:03:40.039 I don't know I'm going to do it, but it's upstairs. Yeah, 59 00:03:40.039 --> 00:03:45.639 the purple set with all the curtains opening in the mentage, and that 60 00:03:45.719 --> 00:03:49.599 was live. Jay did the first two weeks live, which was pretty unheard 61 00:03:49.599 --> 00:03:52.879 of for late night. It still is. But yeah, that was an 62 00:03:52.919 --> 00:03:57.520 interesting transition to say the latest. That whole weird move of not acknowledging that 63 00:03:57.599 --> 00:04:01.479 somebody else hosted the show last week. Yeah, it stemmed from Helen Kushnik. 64 00:04:01.479 --> 00:04:06.639 It was Jay's producer. Jay had it was a very unhealthy relationship, 65 00:04:08.159 --> 00:04:15.599 and you know, he basically deferred to her and she I don't want to 66 00:04:15.639 --> 00:04:17.000 say she was a bully to him, but it just was not a healthy 67 00:04:17.079 --> 00:04:21.879 relationship. And Jay's a very nice man, and she was doing all these 68 00:04:21.920 --> 00:04:27.120 things behind the scenes that Jay supposedly didn't know about it, and I probably 69 00:04:27.240 --> 00:04:30.720 I believe it's that it's true. And one of the things was is that, 70 00:04:30.759 --> 00:04:32.720 you know, Bob right at NBC, the President's like I went Jaya 71 00:04:33.279 --> 00:04:41.199 to thank Johnny and Kushnik absolutely not, and she was just playing as Bob 72 00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:45.079 Wright I think said she was always held him overplaying her cards and it led 73 00:04:45.079 --> 00:04:47.560 to her demise. But it would have just been the most easy, simple 74 00:04:47.639 --> 00:04:53.399 thing for him to mention Johnny. Yeah, and especially Jay had been doing 75 00:04:53.439 --> 00:04:57.000 Mondays, so it's not like, you know, somebody dropped in out of 76 00:04:57.040 --> 00:05:00.000 space and started hosting the Tonight Show. There was Clan's constant. Carson was 77 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:03.399 baffled by the whole thing, just because you know, Leno would have never 78 00:05:03.560 --> 00:05:06.959 been able to do the permanent guest host if it wasn't for Carson. They 79 00:05:06.959 --> 00:05:12.240 were always, you know, on good terms. I mean, definitely, 80 00:05:12.360 --> 00:05:16.199 Johnny privately wanted Dave to take over the Tonight's show, but in terms of 81 00:05:16.199 --> 00:05:20.399 Carson Productions, Johnny on the show, Jay was guest hosting for Scale. 82 00:05:20.439 --> 00:05:26.040 He was getting paid is less as you possibly and Leno was so smart about 83 00:05:26.079 --> 00:05:28.959 it because Leno knew that his club dates, he could play Vegas in all 84 00:05:28.959 --> 00:05:31.920 these places and make so much more more money, and just thinking like, 85 00:05:31.959 --> 00:05:35.120 you know, I got all these these behind me, these guest hosts, 86 00:05:35.120 --> 00:05:40.560 which you think two hundred or more times that he would have a better running 87 00:05:40.639 --> 00:05:44.680 to get the Tonight Show. I mean, everything was very calculated with him, 88 00:05:45.199 --> 00:05:46.959 and uh, it just got to the point where there was just so 89 00:05:47.120 --> 00:05:51.879 much stuff with Helen and the way that some of the people at the Tonight 90 00:05:51.920 --> 00:05:57.360 Show and including Branford and Marcellus denies it, but he said some stuff about 91 00:05:57.439 --> 00:06:00.839 Doc and the band apparently on the Today Show about not being hip and they 92 00:06:00.839 --> 00:06:02.439 were going to bring this back. So Doc quit and the band were very 93 00:06:02.560 --> 00:06:09.360 very upset with that, and it just kept it kept escalating. But yeah, 94 00:06:09.839 --> 00:06:13.240 Carter covered it, but Helen Plant did a false story and the New 95 00:06:13.319 --> 00:06:16.319 York Post about NBC one in Johnny out and Johnny knew right away it was 96 00:06:16.360 --> 00:06:19.720 Helen, and it was proven it was Helen, and there was just all 97 00:06:19.759 --> 00:06:25.240 this stuff that was completely unnecessary behind the scenes. It's crazy that it's thirty 98 00:06:25.319 --> 00:06:29.600 years already worth three or four hosts later, depending on how you want to 99 00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:32.639 count. You know, as I was thinking this morning getting ready to speak 100 00:06:32.680 --> 00:06:35.920 with you, I was doing some self analysis, and if you had asked 101 00:06:35.959 --> 00:06:39.079 me when I woke up over breakfast, I would have said, yeah, 102 00:06:39.120 --> 00:06:42.319 I'm a huge late night fan. I definitely talk about it all the time 103 00:06:42.319 --> 00:06:46.120 on the podcast. And then I realized I really haven't watched it regularly since 104 00:06:46.199 --> 00:06:50.360 maybe year two of CBS Letterman. So I'm exposing myself here that you know, 105 00:06:50.399 --> 00:06:55.040 that's a good twenty seven eight years ago, But yet I love the 106 00:06:55.279 --> 00:07:00.639 genre. I just maybe it's just time has changed. I was a huge 107 00:07:00.720 --> 00:07:03.759 Letterman fan, and boy if Dave ever moved from twelve thirty to eleven thirty, 108 00:07:03.759 --> 00:07:05.600 and I didn't have to stay up till one thirty in the morning to 109 00:07:05.600 --> 00:07:08.639 watch him. I would watch this thing every night. And I did that 110 00:07:08.680 --> 00:07:10.480 for like a year or two, and then I don't know if I hit 111 00:07:10.480 --> 00:07:13.319 my mid twenties or what happened. I just kind of fell out of the 112 00:07:13.519 --> 00:07:17.360 habit, but I do love it. I think Dave the definitelyands CBS disappointment 113 00:07:17.439 --> 00:07:21.639 television for a generation. The NBC show still holds up. It was just 114 00:07:21.680 --> 00:07:26.959 a brilliantly conceived show and to do something that had never really been done and 115 00:07:27.079 --> 00:07:30.639 influenced so many comedy I think for the first maybe two or three years, 116 00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:34.680 Dave was putting in maximum effort and then he just pulled back and it was 117 00:07:34.759 --> 00:07:39.079 just so obvious. I know he was tired, he was exhausted. I 118 00:07:39.160 --> 00:07:43.519 get that, and the show just changed and it was not the same thing. 119 00:07:43.600 --> 00:07:47.000 And then over time Dave developed more to be known as an interviewer and 120 00:07:47.160 --> 00:07:49.920 just kind of like, you know, having people on he never would have 121 00:07:49.959 --> 00:07:54.959 had on, like a maybe political people, and you know, putting his 122 00:07:55.000 --> 00:07:59.480 political opinion in a little bit, and it just completely became this other thing. 123 00:07:59.480 --> 00:08:03.319 But Dave was such an amazing broadcaster that people just followed him no matter 124 00:08:03.439 --> 00:08:09.800 what he did. But yeah, once the show shifted and he stopped going 125 00:08:09.959 --> 00:08:13.720 to rehearsal, and even before that he stopped doing pre tapes, it just 126 00:08:13.800 --> 00:08:16.160 became a different thing. And I knew he couldn't do remotes anymore because he 127 00:08:16.199 --> 00:08:20.480 was too famous. But it just, you know, it was just a 128 00:08:20.519 --> 00:08:24.360 different show. And I mean, I still think he was probably the funniest 129 00:08:24.360 --> 00:08:26.399 person behind the desk. I think Carson was the best overall host, but 130 00:08:26.480 --> 00:08:31.160 in terms of funny and stuff, I would say Dave's NBC show, and 131 00:08:31.920 --> 00:08:35.120 yeah, maybe the first few years of CBS, Yeah, Dave had the 132 00:08:35.320 --> 00:08:39.399 twelve thirty vibe of no one's watching. I can make something out of nothing. 133 00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:43.559 Now Conan once Conan found his fastball, sort of picked up that torch. 134 00:08:45.240 --> 00:08:48.399 But to me, eleven thirty Dave. I always thought of it as 135 00:08:48.759 --> 00:08:52.480 the guy at twelve thirty was wearing sneakers and the guy at eleven thirty had 136 00:08:52.480 --> 00:08:56.519 on on Amani suit, and just that alone was just different. You had 137 00:08:56.559 --> 00:09:01.320 to play at eleven thirty. There's definitely change that have been the need to 138 00:09:01.360 --> 00:09:03.879 be made. But I think any of the shows that the people started at 139 00:09:03.879 --> 00:09:09.679 twelve thirty and then went down at eleven thirty, I prefer the twelve thirty 140 00:09:09.759 --> 00:09:13.480 looseness. And I get the prestige of going to eleven thirty and playing to 141 00:09:13.519 --> 00:09:20.399 a mass audience, but the necessary changes, just at least to somebody to 142 00:09:20.519 --> 00:09:24.000 me, people that grew up or that watched the twelve thirty, it was 143 00:09:24.679 --> 00:09:28.279 it was not the same. And I really do think that in terms of 144 00:09:28.440 --> 00:09:31.919 the best work that they did when they were looser and they didn't have to 145 00:09:31.919 --> 00:09:35.679 worry as much about making the changes, the twelve thirty shows were the best. 146 00:09:35.879 --> 00:09:39.720 All right, So let's talk about the new podcast. Where did it 147 00:09:39.799 --> 00:09:41.639 come from? How did you hook up with Bill in the site? The 148 00:09:41.639 --> 00:09:45.679 site is late Night or, which is fantastic. It's already one of my 149 00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:50.559 key resources as I'm listening, especially specifically the Smigel interview. When I listened 150 00:09:50.559 --> 00:09:54.240 to the Carson podcast, I thought, Oh, this guy's just a big 151 00:09:54.279 --> 00:09:58.480 Carson fan. And now I'm sensing, are you industry or you seem to 152 00:09:58.559 --> 00:10:01.000 know people a little bit more than maybe you know. I worked in TV 153 00:10:01.080 --> 00:10:05.960 at day jobs for a bunch of years, and I've just been around people 154 00:10:07.120 --> 00:10:11.480 that I've been able to have some private conversations with that trusted me, and 155 00:10:11.320 --> 00:10:16.559 I definitely when I'm talking to Robert, who I've known since I was seventeen, 156 00:10:16.600 --> 00:10:18.720 I mean during the whole Carson podcast, I mean, Robert was very 157 00:10:18.799 --> 00:10:22.080 nice to do my last episode and bring Dana Carvey in. I just wanted 158 00:10:22.120 --> 00:10:26.639 to talk about Carson because he wrote the Johnny Carson sketches on SNL that Johnny 159 00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:33.159 did not like, and talk about some other things about Carson with Smigel. 160 00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:37.519 But I've known him since I was seventeen, knew I know more about SNL 161 00:10:37.639 --> 00:10:39.720 than I did it of Carson, and I was very I knew a lot 162 00:10:39.759 --> 00:10:43.240 about Carson, so it was one of those things where I had a lot 163 00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:46.080 of information. I mean I had a day job at Letterman too, so 164 00:10:46.840 --> 00:10:52.600 I always wanted to talk to people about the other shows and maybe broad in 165 00:10:52.639 --> 00:10:56.240 because I knew I had this knowledge, and I definitely had questions that I 166 00:10:56.320 --> 00:11:01.919 just I really wanted to be answered. So I thought this was a good 167 00:11:03.080 --> 00:11:07.159 fit. Jed, who runs Late Night Er, was a fan of the 168 00:11:07.200 --> 00:11:09.399 podcast Carson, and he said, you know, if you ever want to 169 00:11:09.440 --> 00:11:13.159 do something, let me know. We had a couple of conversations and it 170 00:11:13.200 --> 00:11:16.360 made sense. I mean, yeah, Bill Carter's editor at large, and 171 00:11:16.960 --> 00:11:22.159 I there's just there are a lot of people I wanted to talk to. 172 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:26.440 The host Bert Sugarman for Midnight Special is the guest next week, so we're 173 00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:31.440 going different time periods. I mean Sugarman Midnight Special seventy two to I think 174 00:11:31.480 --> 00:11:37.519 eighty one, and he was the creator and producer of Bert Sugarman's Midnight Special, 175 00:11:37.559 --> 00:11:41.639 which every rock act you can imagine and not country, I mean everyone 176 00:11:41.679 --> 00:11:46.559 from Johnny Cash to led Zeppelin, to Kiss to David Bowie and just kind 177 00:11:46.600 --> 00:11:50.200 of going back every Friday Midnight Special and to just just talk about the evolution 178 00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:54.679 of late night and Johnny Carson was very influential and Midnight Special. Sugarman and 179 00:11:54.679 --> 00:11:58.440 Carson were next door neighbors in bel Air, so there's a lot of Carson 180 00:11:58.480 --> 00:12:01.519 that goes with it. So yeah, it was that was fun. So 181 00:12:01.600 --> 00:12:05.159 we're just going to go around the genre and see who we can talk to. 182 00:12:05.519 --> 00:12:09.240 I love that you're going that deep with it. That's cool. I 183 00:12:09.240 --> 00:12:13.679 remember that show. That's awesome. Yeah, it's his YouTube channel's amazing. 184 00:12:13.840 --> 00:12:16.320 He's an amazing businessman. He owns it, which I mean Carson didn't get 185 00:12:16.360 --> 00:12:20.480 ownership till like nineteen eighty of his Tonight show, but Sugarman in seventy two 186 00:12:20.600 --> 00:12:24.440 or whatever. NBC didn't believe in it and basically had to bought airtime on 187 00:12:24.679 --> 00:12:28.960 NBC, and NBC said, fine, if you pay for everything, so 188 00:12:28.039 --> 00:12:31.360 he owned it. He has everything, and yeah, the channel is just 189 00:12:31.399 --> 00:12:35.720 phenomenal. I mean people like Linda Ronstat, she went on Carson and I 190 00:12:35.720 --> 00:12:39.720 think sixty eight or sixty nine and would not do Johnny's Show because the audio. 191 00:12:39.799 --> 00:12:43.039 A lot of acts did not want to do Johnny's Show because TV was 192 00:12:43.080 --> 00:12:46.399 perceived as a lot of times the audio people and stuff just were not able 193 00:12:46.440 --> 00:12:50.559 to adjust to rock in different sounds and stuff. So like Neil Diamond didn't 194 00:12:50.559 --> 00:12:54.320 do Carson Show or any show including Midnight Special, and they try to get 195 00:12:54.360 --> 00:12:58.200 him until Johnny's last year. His Diamond had a bad experience with it. 196 00:12:58.240 --> 00:13:03.320 So Carl have to go across the hall to watch Linda Ronstadt on Midnight specially 197 00:13:03.320 --> 00:13:07.120 because he was such a fan. He'd go over to visit Richard Pryor when 198 00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:11.240 he was hosting, so he would definitely go over. But there were certain 199 00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:13.440 acts, Yeah, like Linda Ronstadt he wasn't able to get into, like 200 00:13:13.480 --> 00:13:18.919 eighty four, eighty six and yeah, the Tonight Show, the Carson audio 201 00:13:18.919 --> 00:13:22.000 people stayed up till the middle of the night the night before just making sure 202 00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:24.759 the audio was good. And then you know, Ronstadt was so ron stet 203 00:13:24.759 --> 00:13:28.360 was so happy and ended up doing Carson Show, like I think five more 204 00:13:28.360 --> 00:13:33.000 times after that. Are you finding this podcast easier to book? Because I'm 205 00:13:33.039 --> 00:13:35.279 imaginally say we wanted a book. I know Branford More Salas, there's a 206 00:13:35.399 --> 00:13:41.120 road to get to Branford More Sallas. But if you want to book somebody 207 00:13:41.120 --> 00:13:46.039 from the back offices from Carson circa nineteen seventy six, that seems to me 208 00:13:46.120 --> 00:13:48.440 like it would be a lot harder. I'd rather try and book Branford than 209 00:13:48.840 --> 00:13:52.399 a random civilian forty years long. I'm you know, I'm going wide. 210 00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:56.240 I mean, I just asked somebody who worked at the Tonight Show in New 211 00:13:56.320 --> 00:14:01.120 York because I wasn't aware of them if they would do it. But yeah, 212 00:14:01.159 --> 00:14:05.799 going to a Branford, even though I'd be very surprised if he said 213 00:14:05.840 --> 00:14:09.960 yes, he publicly said bad stuff about Jay Leno, publicly said bad stuff 214 00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:13.399 about Carson. I would love to. I'm gonna ask him. It's you 215 00:14:13.480 --> 00:14:16.519 never know, people are gonna say yes or no. But yeah, I 216 00:14:16.519 --> 00:14:22.279 mean definitely to talk to some of those types is definitely easier to get to. 217 00:14:22.440 --> 00:14:26.000 I mean some of the people to track down took me forever, I 218 00:14:26.039 --> 00:14:30.840 mean months, sometimes the kind of the behind the scenes people. I was 219 00:14:30.879 --> 00:14:33.960 just so obsessed with the New York Tonight Show era from sixty two to seventy 220 00:14:33.000 --> 00:14:37.320 two. It was worth it. And I was just I mean, people 221 00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:41.679 like Jason Bateman that were kids on the show now we're in like their fifties, 222 00:14:41.720 --> 00:14:45.279 so I mean, it was just so many of the people that I 223 00:14:45.399 --> 00:14:50.720 wanted to get were just I mean, they were passing away, and it 224 00:14:50.799 --> 00:14:54.799 just got it got very hard to be guessed at the end, just because 225 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:58.519 the pool of people that were still around was tiny. And this is definitely 226 00:14:58.120 --> 00:15:03.080 a lot easier so far in terms of the book, and but I think 227 00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:05.279 it really comes down to so many people. I got a lot of big 228 00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:09.600 guests on Carson, and people have been very nice on this is for Carson, 229 00:15:09.879 --> 00:15:11.440 and I did not know this. It never occurred to me, is 230 00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:16.279 that it was one of the best times in their lives generally for a lot 231 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:20.279 of these people, and they've never gotten to talk about it at length, 232 00:15:20.440 --> 00:15:24.279 certainly, So I mean I always equate it to somebody that had the best 233 00:15:24.279 --> 00:15:26.279 college experience, but they never get to talk about it. No one really 234 00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:31.600 cares. But they suddenly have this audience of somebody that knows all these things 235 00:15:31.639 --> 00:15:35.679 about them when they were on Carson and things, and people said yes to 236 00:15:35.720 --> 00:15:39.200 me that I just never would have expected in a million years. And hopefully 237 00:15:39.240 --> 00:15:41.879 this is kind of the same, you know, talking about your first time 238 00:15:41.879 --> 00:15:45.679 on Latterman and just you know, Dave meant a lot to a lot of 239 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:50.559 the guests and so forth, and so we'll see what happens. I just 240 00:15:50.679 --> 00:15:56.120 hope that people will trust me to come on, and my whole goal is 241 00:15:56.120 --> 00:16:00.399 is to present to my audience things that they probably do not know, things 242 00:16:00.440 --> 00:16:06.240 that the guests have never talked about, stories that maybe they're rarely talked about. 243 00:16:06.320 --> 00:16:08.879 Buried but just with Carson and everything, I mean, I didn't ask 244 00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:14.480 Rachel Dratch how she came up with Debbie Downer because she's talked about that on 245 00:16:14.519 --> 00:16:18.600 Saturday Night Live so many times in interviews. It's so easily googleble and I 246 00:16:18.639 --> 00:16:22.480 don't want to be that guy. There's no reason for me to ask some 247 00:16:22.519 --> 00:16:26.039 of those questions that they've answered a million times. So we're just trying to 248 00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:30.279 go in deeper. And yeah, so far, it's been fun, and 249 00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:36.039 guests have been very generous with their time and with just sharing their stories. 250 00:16:36.440 --> 00:16:41.399 You gave me flashbacks when you mentioned New York era Carson Tonight Show and how 251 00:16:41.559 --> 00:16:45.080 so many of the archives are gone. It was kind of cool what Jerry 252 00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:48.639 did in the pop Tarts movie. Yes, you know, in another life, 253 00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:52.399 I worked at WR Radio late nineties. We found an entire room, 254 00:16:52.879 --> 00:16:56.120 probably the size of my office, of just stacked real to real tapes. 255 00:16:56.600 --> 00:17:02.480 But I was tasked with throwing them out. And I'm going through these tapes, 256 00:17:02.519 --> 00:17:03.680 and you know, I'm twenty something years old. What am I going 257 00:17:03.759 --> 00:17:07.640 to do with all these tapes? And it's like, all right, Viking 258 00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:12.200 six launch, toss, random LBJA toss, JFK something, All right, 259 00:17:12.279 --> 00:17:15.920 let's try and keep that. I dubbed everything down to mini disc back in 260 00:17:15.960 --> 00:17:19.640 the day. I had left the art When I left WA, I left 261 00:17:19.640 --> 00:17:25.200 the archives behind. When they did their one hundredth anniversary, I lent them 262 00:17:25.240 --> 00:17:27.440 a dub of my archives. So I was happy that that happened properly. 263 00:17:27.480 --> 00:17:32.559 But my larger point here is here in the digital age, I wonder how 264 00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:37.640 much stuff disappears, Like somebody like Mark Marin has almost definitely every episode on 265 00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:45.440 a hard drive or some technology somewhere, but especially celebrity shows working with podcast 266 00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:49.079 companies that are really radio companies. I wonder how many of these shows are 267 00:17:49.119 --> 00:17:56.279 just going to vanish because nobody bothers to back it up, or somebody stops 268 00:17:56.279 --> 00:17:57.279 paying for hosting, and all these things are just going to go away. 269 00:17:57.640 --> 00:18:02.519 I really worry about it. Yeah, I hopefully now people are a little 270 00:18:02.599 --> 00:18:07.640 bit better about it, but certainly Johnny was furious when if NBC erased everything. 271 00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:11.240 Luckily there are i'd say from sixty two to seventy two, there's probably 272 00:18:12.039 --> 00:18:15.160 I don't know, maybe at least a couple dozen, if not more, 273 00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:21.880 shows that existed. There's absolutely kinescopes dating back to Johnny's first month on the 274 00:18:21.920 --> 00:18:25.119 air. I've seen them. It is pretty wild to watch. I don't 275 00:18:25.160 --> 00:18:29.279 think anybody's ever seen these clips and things. But you have people like Bob 276 00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:33.160 Newhart guest hosting in sixty four, and there's definitely some of the guest hosts 277 00:18:33.160 --> 00:18:37.480 and just random kiness scopes. It was such a shame that they erased the 278 00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:40.799 most pivotal things. It seems like every year, and it could be off 279 00:18:40.799 --> 00:18:45.039 on this that somebody comes up with something and to find something, people did 280 00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:48.480 have them an addicts and stuff and whenever they're able to find something. It's 281 00:18:48.519 --> 00:18:52.079 like a treasure quest to find some of these clips. Like Carson, people 282 00:18:52.079 --> 00:18:56.839 were so desperate to get clips because they went to Burbank in seventy two. 283 00:18:56.200 --> 00:19:00.400 They moved and had an anniversary show where they caldn't really do when think is 284 00:19:00.440 --> 00:19:03.960 all the clips where gone? Johnny and his brilliance requested the at Ames thing, 285 00:19:04.279 --> 00:19:07.680 so he had that, and they had a few things. But they 286 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:11.599 were actually taking ads in newspapers of the Tonight Show people around at least in 287 00:19:11.720 --> 00:19:15.279 LA probably around the country, asking people if they had clips from New York, 288 00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:18.599 if they happen to tape them themselves privately, if they could send them 289 00:19:18.599 --> 00:19:22.480 into the show for the anniversary shows. Was that very second that my microphone 290 00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:26.200 could out see here? Mark end up on an up inflection there and I 291 00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:27.559 don't respond. I don't want to think we got mad each other. So 292 00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:34.279 a figure, let's take the break right now, let's walk up through the 293 00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:37.559 Tonight Show. You seem like a very positive guy, so I'm not looking 294 00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:41.559 for any sort of pylon, but let's talk. I'd love to know what 295 00:19:41.599 --> 00:19:47.200 your thoughts are on Leno Conan Leno two fallon we can go quick. Yeah, 296 00:19:47.319 --> 00:19:49.599 I mean, I think it's one of those things that NBC could could 297 00:19:49.640 --> 00:19:53.960 have handled it better the whole like four years Conan's going to get the Tonight 298 00:19:55.039 --> 00:20:02.000 Show thing. I understand Jay being upset because he was still number one, 299 00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:07.240 and it just rarely do they just force somebody out when they're number one, 300 00:20:07.279 --> 00:20:11.440 with all the demographics in the raid ins. At the same time, NBC 301 00:20:11.640 --> 00:20:14.359 was afrad Conan was going to go somewhere else. I mean, Fox offered 302 00:20:14.440 --> 00:20:18.400 him a lot of money to go there, and I just think that they 303 00:20:18.440 --> 00:20:26.039 were just afraid of that situation. And then once Conan was given the Tonight 304 00:20:26.119 --> 00:20:30.240 Show, Jay was given this ten o'clock show, which just was okay, 305 00:20:30.359 --> 00:20:34.799 It wasn't anything great, definitely after watching and I didn't think it was probably 306 00:20:34.799 --> 00:20:38.839 going to go anywhere. And if NBC would have gotten rid of j they 307 00:20:38.839 --> 00:20:44.680 would have had to pay him over one hundred million dollars, so well didn't 308 00:20:44.680 --> 00:20:48.400 realize that. Oh yeah, I mean it was ridiculous money. So NBC 309 00:20:48.440 --> 00:20:52.720 would have looked so foolish having to pay him over a hundred million. If 310 00:20:52.720 --> 00:20:55.599 they got rid of Conan, they would have paid him forty million, So 311 00:20:55.880 --> 00:21:00.519 forty million versus over one hundred million. Then it turned out Conan had ten 312 00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:04.200 months to figure out the Tonight Show, which he had problems, but everybody 313 00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:07.759 did. I mean I touched a Jay on the phone. He was very 314 00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:10.799 nice to me, but diplomatically, I mean I was just like, Jay, 315 00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:12.559 you didn't figure out your show in ten months. I mean, it 316 00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:15.799 took you at least a year and a half until you did this show in 317 00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:18.599 h and New York where your show found your voice. I said to him, 318 00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:25.000 there's no way in ten months Conan did it. I mean anybody from 319 00:21:25.119 --> 00:21:29.920 Jay certainly to Colbert who's number one now didn't figure it out the first year. 320 00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:33.359 I mean people forget they look at the success, but Colbert was number 321 00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:37.160 three and just everybody was piling on him with criticism and stuff. So the 322 00:21:37.240 --> 00:21:41.880 show is they take a while. John Stewart's first year on the Daily Show, 323 00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:45.519 certainly people were like, we missed Craig Hillbourn, we missed Craig Hillboord 324 00:21:45.599 --> 00:21:48.440 and just the new somebody that's doing something new, especially than making change. 325 00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:52.119 It just takes a while. I don't think Conan was given enough time. 326 00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:56.920 Certainly there's host including Jay. If they were only giving ton months. I 327 00:21:56.920 --> 00:22:00.720 don't think that they probably would have lasted. So, you know, Conan 328 00:22:00.759 --> 00:22:03.799 could have gone to twelve I guess they could have moved tonight show to like 329 00:22:03.799 --> 00:22:07.319 twelve oh five or something, and I get you know, Conan didn't want 330 00:22:07.359 --> 00:22:11.480 to move backwards. NBC paid him I believe it was forty million dollars, 331 00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:15.960 and then he went to TBS, which it was tough. I mean, 332 00:22:17.079 --> 00:22:19.480 just you know, people, really, I don't think we're really watching that 333 00:22:19.720 --> 00:22:23.119 as much as they would have Network shown it. They did great work, 334 00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:26.759 some of the stuff did, I mean, did very well online. And 335 00:22:26.799 --> 00:22:32.799 then Conan now ironically being doing a podcast once a week, I feel like 336 00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:37.480 is more popular than any of the people currently behind the desk absolutely, I 337 00:22:37.519 --> 00:22:38.960 mean, and they all do a great job, and what Conan does is 338 00:22:40.039 --> 00:22:42.599 very different. But I feel like full circle that was the best thing that 339 00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:47.720 ever happened to him, and that he can do his HBO show right now, 340 00:22:47.759 --> 00:22:51.200 which is really funny, and uh yeah, I feel like this was 341 00:22:51.319 --> 00:22:55.759 this was his strength. And doing those shows five days a week for years 342 00:22:56.279 --> 00:23:02.400 is not healthy for the person. Some people it's just affected them in negative 343 00:23:02.440 --> 00:23:06.319 ways. And I just think Conan's probably in the best possible place, and 344 00:23:06.359 --> 00:23:10.839 everything worked out bet the best it could have. I actually think the Leno 345 00:23:10.960 --> 00:23:15.119 ten pm idea was the right idea, but too soon. My premise. 346 00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:18.640 If I told you right now, you could have sixty four year old j 347 00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:22.559 leto at ten pm, four nights a week on NBC in today's network environment, 348 00:23:22.599 --> 00:23:26.000 at that kind of budget for producing a show, I think NBC would 349 00:23:26.119 --> 00:23:30.559 kill to have that show. Maybe not seventy four year old J but right 350 00:23:30.599 --> 00:23:33.200 show, wrong time, it could have been. I watched the first show 351 00:23:33.400 --> 00:23:37.680 and there were certain things that I saw that I was like, I just 352 00:23:37.720 --> 00:23:41.200 couldn't believe that that was the choice they were making. And I just in 353 00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:44.240 my head, I'm like, if they keep making certain decisions like this, 354 00:23:44.319 --> 00:23:48.119 I don't see the show going. It was so bizarre as a Jay the 355 00:23:48.279 --> 00:23:52.960 very first time that I know of in his career challenged one of his guests, 356 00:23:53.079 --> 00:23:56.920 kind of I'm sure he was pressured into it just to get publicity for 357 00:23:56.960 --> 00:24:02.240 the show, but asking Kanye West, who had just had I guess, 358 00:24:02.359 --> 00:24:04.759 you know, got in thrown out of the MTV Awards or whatever it was, 359 00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:08.559 I forget what it was for going in front Taylor Swift won an Award 360 00:24:08.599 --> 00:24:11.559 and Kanye grabbing a mic and I think he said, Jase, that's what 361 00:24:11.559 --> 00:24:17.240 would your mom think? Because j I think his mom Kenye's mom had passed 362 00:24:17.240 --> 00:24:21.279 away. It was this different Jay, and obviously I think that they were 363 00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:25.720 trying to do different things. I just I mean Fred Silverman, I think 364 00:24:25.799 --> 00:24:30.039 was one of the NBC chief is one of the I think he made even 365 00:24:30.119 --> 00:24:33.920 had the idea at first that they should do this. I don't know if 366 00:24:33.960 --> 00:24:38.039 Silverman inspired or what, but like Silverman, I asked him about it because 367 00:24:38.039 --> 00:24:40.880 I said, this was your idea for Jada to to do this, and 368 00:24:40.920 --> 00:24:45.240 He's just like, I just, I mean, it just wasn't well executed, 369 00:24:45.279 --> 00:24:48.359 basically, is what he said. I don't know. Jay to me 370 00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:52.559 is still one of the best stand ups. I mean, if you look 371 00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:56.720 at the NBC show, the Letterman thing is stuff is incredible. It just 372 00:24:56.839 --> 00:24:59.839 wasn't a fit. And then NBC's like, what do we do with j 373 00:25:00.200 --> 00:25:02.359 And then if he leaves, we have to pay one hundred million. It 374 00:25:02.359 --> 00:25:06.480 would be a nightmare scenario in terms of the press. I mean, people 375 00:25:06.519 --> 00:25:08.160 would still be talking about that if they had to pay him over a hundred 376 00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:11.839 million. So it makes sense talking about it anyway, though, I still 377 00:25:11.839 --> 00:25:15.319 think if Jay was on at eleven thirty, I mean, in terms of 378 00:25:15.400 --> 00:25:18.880 the ratings, I think he would be really doing well. In terms of 379 00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:22.000 the online stuff, they would have had to figure that stuff out. That 380 00:25:22.039 --> 00:25:29.119 was not his thing. But now I think anybody competing against Jay Leno would 381 00:25:29.119 --> 00:25:32.960 not be fun for anyone because that guy's work ethic is just like, I 382 00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:38.880 mean, nobody puts the amount of work into anything other than him. His 383 00:25:38.960 --> 00:25:41.519 friends will all tell you, his famous friends will all say the same thing. 384 00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:45.720 You know, everyone dismissed him when he was getting his butt kicked by 385 00:25:45.799 --> 00:25:48.839 Letterman for the first like year or two, and he just yeah, I 386 00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:53.680 mean, he's just his whole thing. All he wanted was to be number 387 00:25:53.680 --> 00:25:57.640 one, and he succeeded wildly in being number one. I think a lot 388 00:25:57.680 --> 00:26:02.880 of people have said the show is largely forgettable, and I don't know how 389 00:26:02.920 --> 00:26:06.920 many moments people can go back, specific moments, be like, these are 390 00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:10.759 my moments that I remember from the show, other than the Hugh Grant thing, 391 00:26:10.839 --> 00:26:14.400 which wasn't even a joke or anything witty. It was just like, 392 00:26:14.559 --> 00:26:17.400 what the hell were you thinking? People remember that, But in terms of 393 00:26:17.599 --> 00:26:22.119 like people remember certain bits like jaywalkin, but specific things that happened on that 394 00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:25.599 show. I think that there was a lack in where as like Letterman, 395 00:26:25.720 --> 00:26:32.359 people can go back and just there's very memorable incentences that happened. And yeah, 396 00:26:32.359 --> 00:26:36.000 it just the line Out show was different in terms of, like I 397 00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:37.960 think what they were going for, but they succeeded wildly and being number one. 398 00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:41.440 Yeah, I agree, it's one of those weird things. It was 399 00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:45.279 number one forever, very successful, lasted a long time and just has a 400 00:26:45.359 --> 00:26:48.240 vanilla ice cream legacy to it. I mean it's great, but I think 401 00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:51.920 you nail that we're not sitting here going on over the time, whereas I 402 00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:56.279 bet we could go down a very deep eighties Letterman rabbit hole and maybe some 403 00:26:56.319 --> 00:26:57.599 other day I'll invite you on to do that. Oh yeah, please. 404 00:26:59.599 --> 00:27:03.240 It's true. And I even think the CBS thing people can can come up 405 00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:08.680 with with moments and it just was different. I you know, I think 406 00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:11.960 it's if I had to guess, I think it's probably hard for Jay now 407 00:27:12.079 --> 00:27:18.880 because at Letterman is like the guy that everyone just kind of at least comedically 408 00:27:18.440 --> 00:27:22.119 they worship. I mean, if Dave goes on any of those shows like 409 00:27:22.200 --> 00:27:26.680 Colbert, it's like Royalty, it's such a huge deal. Like when Dave 410 00:27:26.680 --> 00:27:30.799 went on John Mulaney's Netflix talk show and it's I mean, for him to 411 00:27:30.839 --> 00:27:37.920 do anything his show on Netflix, he gets people that just do not normally 412 00:27:37.119 --> 00:27:41.559 do these things that are very elusive to being guessed, but they seem to 413 00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:45.359 all say yes to Dave. So I think that that's probably hard for Jay 414 00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:51.240 just to be in a different position where he doesn't really get that accolade or 415 00:27:51.279 --> 00:27:55.680 the I don't know, the the prestige that Dave has given. I'm sure 416 00:27:55.680 --> 00:28:00.960 that that I'm guessing that that has to be hard for him. Yeah, 417 00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:03.720 I would agree with that. So what did you think of Mlaney? I 418 00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:08.359 thought it was great in terms of something that had not been really tested. 419 00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:11.759 I mean, normally those things take forever to get on its feet and to 420 00:28:11.799 --> 00:28:17.400 have a cohesive feel, and I thought that we're definitely there were raw and 421 00:28:17.599 --> 00:28:21.160 moments and stuff. But I think overall, in terms of doing six shows 422 00:28:21.160 --> 00:28:25.119 that have never been these are his first six shows, I thought, or 423 00:28:25.119 --> 00:28:27.160 whatever it was, I thought he did great. I thought the format was 424 00:28:27.279 --> 00:28:33.079 really fun. I think it was one of those things that they just kept 425 00:28:33.079 --> 00:28:34.839 doing the show, which I get. I mean that those things that are 426 00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:38.359 just pressure cookers and they take over your lives. I think if he just 427 00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:41.319 kept doing it and stuff it just obviously I think, you know, it 428 00:28:41.319 --> 00:28:45.599 would just get stronger and stronger. But I thought for what they did and 429 00:28:45.640 --> 00:28:51.599 what they set out too, that they did phenomenal. And yeah, I 430 00:28:51.640 --> 00:28:55.200 hope they come back and they do it. But Mullany's smart enough to know 431 00:28:56.480 --> 00:29:00.640 that having one of those gigs is just man. I mean, how many 432 00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:03.319 people, funny people like Chris Rock, Tina Fey, Amy Schumer just said 433 00:29:03.359 --> 00:29:08.279 no to those gigs. I mean, they're it to do that on a 434 00:29:08.440 --> 00:29:15.039 rate where you're going on every night. I mean, Johnny Carson would have 435 00:29:15.160 --> 00:29:18.440 tried, and people over there say it and it's true, would have told 436 00:29:18.519 --> 00:29:23.880 Joan Rivers if she would have gone to him that going to Fox was a 437 00:29:23.880 --> 00:29:27.119 mistake. He would have supported her in terms of how much money if you 438 00:29:27.160 --> 00:29:30.680 want to do this, but out of him just being love and Joan. 439 00:29:30.920 --> 00:29:33.359 It was great on the Tonight Show. Ever, as Carson said, every 440 00:29:33.400 --> 00:29:37.480 like five weeks, she could do one week, but doing it every single 441 00:29:37.640 --> 00:29:41.839 night, it just wasn't gonna work. And Johnny would have told her that 442 00:29:41.920 --> 00:29:44.839 but given her her blessing. And I mean, and then Joan does this 443 00:29:44.920 --> 00:29:48.559 show and guests don't want to be doing and I mean she was counting on 444 00:29:48.599 --> 00:29:52.400 Barry Dillar to maybe try to get some of the bigger guests and stuff. 445 00:29:52.440 --> 00:29:56.680 But like when you insult your guests like that or not guests, I mean 446 00:29:56.880 --> 00:29:59.359 public figures, people aren't gonna want to go on the show. And it's 447 00:29:59.400 --> 00:30:02.960 exactly what happened. She was very good Joe to her own guests, making 448 00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:07.319 them look good, but just in terms of her what she was known for 449 00:30:07.400 --> 00:30:11.480 and stuff, it just it just didn't work. And I mean, Joan 450 00:30:11.599 --> 00:30:15.000 is is such a pioneer and very funny with a lot of her stuff, 451 00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:22.440 but it just to do that every single day is Yeah, most people, 452 00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:25.359 I mean our Sineo ended his show, but after four years, I mean 453 00:30:25.359 --> 00:30:27.400 they get burned up. Part I think Jack part at four years. Steve 454 00:30:27.440 --> 00:30:32.839 Allen might have done five. But there's a reason that these people got out, 455 00:30:33.279 --> 00:30:34.920 Craig Ferguson, they just, I mean, it just got to be 456 00:30:36.119 --> 00:30:40.599 just too much. And it's that's why it's kind of a miracle the Carson 457 00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:41.400 was able to do it. For so long. Yeah, he had a 458 00:30:41.440 --> 00:30:45.799 lot of guest hosts and things. But still, I mean, I don't 459 00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:48.440 think people know this, or maybe you do. Probably in the beginning, 460 00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:56.359 Carson was doing an hour and forty five minutes every single night in New York. 461 00:30:56.920 --> 00:31:03.319 That is just baffling his first bunches of years. For today's host doing 462 00:31:03.400 --> 00:31:06.880 an hour, they would have to host their show every single day of the 463 00:31:07.039 --> 00:31:11.960 year, plus like forty other shows to make up of during that. To 464 00:31:11.000 --> 00:31:15.799 add to that, I mean, it was bafflin what Carson was able to 465 00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:18.720 do all that in the ninety minutes. I have friends at all the shows, 466 00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:21.279 and for them to do an hour is it's hard enough, But to 467 00:31:21.799 --> 00:31:25.200 do ninety minutes, which Carson was doing up until like eighty eighty one something 468 00:31:25.279 --> 00:31:29.759 like that is just yeah at the wear and teara it takes on the host. 469 00:31:29.880 --> 00:31:33.640 Yeah, today, I don't know how that would work. Also, 470 00:31:33.720 --> 00:31:37.000 to the back end of those Carson shows were pretty deep guests. It's one 471 00:31:37.039 --> 00:31:41.000 thing to go, hey, my first guest tonight is Jerry Seinfeld has got 472 00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:42.839 a new movie. Please welcome Jerry, and then shut up and let your 473 00:31:42.839 --> 00:31:47.200 guests be funny. As I teach radio, you know this. The famous 474 00:31:47.240 --> 00:31:51.000 example is shut up and let your guests be funny, and then the next 475 00:31:51.079 --> 00:31:52.799 day everybody goes, did you see Johnny? He was hilarious and what they 476 00:31:52.799 --> 00:31:57.119 really meant was Burt Reynolds told a great story. But those ninety minute shows, 477 00:31:57.160 --> 00:32:02.039 those longer shows, guess he had to carry that. You can't assume 478 00:32:02.119 --> 00:32:07.240 that a less famous Carl Sagan is gonna come out and be super compelling. 479 00:32:07.319 --> 00:32:09.880 Yeah, he would. Johnny was very good at reading the books, like 480 00:32:09.960 --> 00:32:14.680 John Stewart is about if somebody was coming on, but he would have a 481 00:32:14.680 --> 00:32:19.079 lot of authors that would give them. He would put on certain people he 482 00:32:19.119 --> 00:32:22.920 agreed with politically that Johnny publicly couldn't say he agreed with, like Paul Erlick, 483 00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:27.680 doctor Paul Erlick with population control, and he would go to dinner with 484 00:32:27.759 --> 00:32:32.599 Paul Rlick after the show, would go with Jim Fowler, zoologist. He'd 485 00:32:32.640 --> 00:32:37.200 go to dinner with certain people. He was fast and never famous movie stars, 486 00:32:37.240 --> 00:32:40.079 but there was like maybe three people in Erlick was one of them, 487 00:32:40.119 --> 00:32:45.319 in Carl Sagan that he was just Carson was just I think those were some 488 00:32:45.359 --> 00:32:47.720 of his favorite guests, and he would go and just ask them more questions, 489 00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:52.480 very curious man such as such as Letterman. But yeah, having to 490 00:32:52.519 --> 00:32:55.640 put having those people on at twelve thirty, and then you know, once 491 00:32:55.720 --> 00:32:59.960 the show went to a ninety sixty minutes, it was like bye bye Buck, 492 00:33:00.119 --> 00:33:02.519 Henry, bye by. You know, Phyllis Newman wasn't really doing that. 493 00:33:02.599 --> 00:33:07.799 It was these amazing talkers that were just phenomenal. A lot of them 494 00:33:07.839 --> 00:33:13.680 went away. Gord Vadal was one person Johnny kept. There were certain ones, 495 00:33:13.680 --> 00:33:17.440 but for the most part, the more just the people that I thought 496 00:33:17.519 --> 00:33:22.039 really shined on this show. It just it just turned into something else. 497 00:33:22.039 --> 00:33:24.160 But that last half hour. Carson always said, especially in New York, 498 00:33:24.519 --> 00:33:28.920 after an hour and forty five, that he would just like, you know, 499 00:33:29.240 --> 00:33:32.759 just barely hold on to the conversation. Sometimes. I found myself when 500 00:33:32.759 --> 00:33:38.519 they first put The Johnny Carson Show into syndication, the non branded Tonight show 501 00:33:38.559 --> 00:33:42.519 reruns on me TV. Maybe it was the eleven o'clock when it was on 502 00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:46.720 at eleven. I found myself really attracted to the seventies shows more than the 503 00:33:46.759 --> 00:33:51.240 eighties shows. Part of it the lighting of the style of guests. What 504 00:33:51.279 --> 00:33:54.319 you just alluded to was more a celebrity b celebrity and let's get out of 505 00:33:54.359 --> 00:34:00.000 here. And those seventies shows just feel more free flowing. Even the combination 506 00:34:00.079 --> 00:34:04.720 of people on the couch. There's just like everything else, it's a different 507 00:34:04.759 --> 00:34:07.400 time. But like I love those seventies, I feel like, in terms 508 00:34:07.400 --> 00:34:12.119 of it being loose and spontaneous, there's stuff that was supposed to be spontaneous 509 00:34:12.119 --> 00:34:15.840 that viewers think are spontaneous. I feel like there could be danger with certain 510 00:34:15.920 --> 00:34:19.199 guests and with certain things that would happen on the show in the eighties up 511 00:34:19.239 --> 00:34:22.920 to ninety two. Yeah, I think the seventies, in terms of Carson 512 00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:28.480 as having the voice as a host, the best clips I would say were 513 00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:31.679 the seventies. I mean, I love Johnny until the end, but if 514 00:34:31.719 --> 00:34:37.599 I had to pick my favorite moments ninety percent, I would pick seventies. 515 00:34:37.639 --> 00:34:42.719 And I mean the sixties definitely is like this time capsule, and they did 516 00:34:42.719 --> 00:34:45.800 some really funny stuff in the sixties as well, But I definitely think the 517 00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:50.159 peak of the show was seventies. And I've heard people at the top that 518 00:34:50.239 --> 00:34:53.800 worked for him say the same thing. The other thing Johnny did that was 519 00:34:53.800 --> 00:34:59.360 smart was he went away and stayed away. There's that one Letterman appearance, 520 00:34:59.480 --> 00:35:04.039 but we they don't have memories of past his prime Johnny. I was talking 521 00:35:04.079 --> 00:35:07.519 to a friend the other day. I heard a legendary jock from a New 522 00:35:07.559 --> 00:35:09.960 York City radio station still on the air somewhere, and I was like, 523 00:35:10.440 --> 00:35:14.599 ooh, it's it might be time to hang it up. I get it, 524 00:35:14.639 --> 00:35:19.519 and just you don't remember. My last memory of Johnny is showing up 525 00:35:19.519 --> 00:35:22.159 on Letterman. It was tough for him to watch certain people that he really 526 00:35:22.239 --> 00:35:28.679 admired, like Jack Benny, he felt stayed way too long. Bob Hope 527 00:35:28.760 --> 00:35:31.599 was the biggest example. But you know that was his fear. You want 528 00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:36.840 to leave while you're on top, and you don't want to. I mean 529 00:35:36.840 --> 00:35:39.199 there were people like Don Rickles who I loved, and people like Rageous Film 530 00:35:39.199 --> 00:35:45.719 in up until they passed. They needed that audience, they needed to be 531 00:35:45.760 --> 00:35:47.079 in front of an audience. They loved when people would come up to them 532 00:35:47.119 --> 00:35:51.360 in public. I know that a lot of people that maybe that aren't in 533 00:35:51.519 --> 00:35:53.480 entertainment or haven't been around it. I think you don't want to bother these 534 00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:57.199 people. It's some of them and I've been out to dinner and lunches with 535 00:35:57.239 --> 00:36:00.840 them. I've said they needed. They like when people come over. Some 536 00:36:00.880 --> 00:36:05.599 people not as much, but there's certain people that needed that, and Johnny 537 00:36:05.840 --> 00:36:08.199 was not one of them. People would come up and pay him compliments and 538 00:36:08.199 --> 00:36:10.880 stuff. This meant so much. This got made through a tough time, 539 00:36:10.920 --> 00:36:15.039 and they would send him letters and stuff. He always loved that. But 540 00:36:15.480 --> 00:36:20.360 he almost came back once to do an NBC special. But I you know, 541 00:36:20.840 --> 00:36:25.239 he had stopped smoking ninety two. He had tried earlier many times, 542 00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:30.639 but his physical appearance started to change and he started gaining weight, and I 543 00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:34.000 think that probably contributed to some of it. That he just didn't want to 544 00:36:34.599 --> 00:36:37.159 look different than he did. And yeah, I just like a lot of 545 00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:42.880 those factors. He just wanted the work to speak for itself and to not 546 00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:45.199 I mean, he just saw it on the Tonight Show all the time. 547 00:36:45.519 --> 00:36:50.239 He felt Grouch Show near the end too, It's like, why are you 548 00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:54.440 going on TV like this? I'm smiling. I'm thinking of Gilbert Godfried's grouchow 549 00:36:54.440 --> 00:36:59.440 imres, which he only did Old Grouch Show. Yeah, yeah, Gilbert 550 00:36:59.519 --> 00:37:01.599 oh Man, And I was just talking about him yesterday. He was great. 551 00:37:01.599 --> 00:37:05.519 It was I know him a little bit and I was a guest on 552 00:37:05.519 --> 00:37:08.400 his podcast for some bonus episodes at least one or I don't know, and 553 00:37:08.480 --> 00:37:12.679 I got to spend time with him. I had him on the Carson podcast 554 00:37:12.760 --> 00:37:17.440 and he insisted that for me to interview might to buy him a sandwich, 555 00:37:17.480 --> 00:37:20.960 which I did. He was like, Kaiser role, go to this deli 556 00:37:21.199 --> 00:37:23.320 by my house in Chelsea, Kaiser role with this and this, and I 557 00:37:23.360 --> 00:37:25.719 had to get him a drink and all these things. It was like six 558 00:37:25.719 --> 00:37:30.400 point fifty to interview Gil and I went to his home and we yeah, 559 00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:34.119 he did it, but he was quirky like that. He was fun, 560 00:37:34.760 --> 00:37:37.679 kind of known for that type of thing, getting free things and stuff. 561 00:37:37.760 --> 00:37:43.719 But what a talent. I was really felt fortunate to know him just a 562 00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:49.760 little bit. I enjoyed the economy between on air Gilbert and Gilbert in the 563 00:37:49.760 --> 00:37:52.960 hallway high nice to meet you, yeah, right, and then like Goan 564 00:37:52.079 --> 00:37:57.079 and Gilbert, godfre you. It's really true. I first met him. 565 00:37:57.199 --> 00:38:00.800 They had this comedy writer party that I got invited too. I think maybe 566 00:38:00.800 --> 00:38:04.960 Frank Santa Padre invited me, and uh, I don't know. It's probably 567 00:38:05.000 --> 00:38:08.960 eighty people and stuff, and gil was just on like by himself on a 568 00:38:09.119 --> 00:38:14.079 on a chair you know, some comedians are a little bit shy, a 569 00:38:14.079 --> 00:38:16.719 little shy here and there. So I just wanted to go up to him 570 00:38:16.760 --> 00:38:20.559 just to let him know I'm doing this Johnny Carson podcast and we have met 571 00:38:20.679 --> 00:38:22.719 before, and I just expected, like, I don't know, like a 572 00:38:22.760 --> 00:38:24.599 minute or two. And then I was like, I want to leave him 573 00:38:24.599 --> 00:38:28.920 alone, but I don't know. We talked for like it seemed like at 574 00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:31.159 least forty minutes. Maybe it was an hour, I'm not sure, but 575 00:38:31.239 --> 00:38:37.440 he just we had this bond right away when I mentioned Carson, and it 576 00:38:37.559 --> 00:38:39.760 was just throughout the whole thing. I'm like, I just don't want to 577 00:38:39.800 --> 00:38:44.400 be bothering him, but it wasn't a bother And I think if people knew 578 00:38:44.440 --> 00:38:50.679 comedy well and they could connect with him, and I think to this day 579 00:38:50.880 --> 00:38:52.800 it's probably true of a lot of comedians. When you know that much about 580 00:38:52.840 --> 00:38:55.760 something, and there aren't a lot of people that do, it's just this 581 00:38:55.920 --> 00:39:00.920 bond. And then a lot of times like time how long I'll do this 582 00:39:01.000 --> 00:39:04.119 in interviews and stuff, I'll think it had a touch in that for twenty 583 00:39:04.119 --> 00:39:06.320 minutes, it's like an hour and a half, and it just goes by 584 00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:09.519 so quickly. But gil was just such a lover of comedy, and yeah, 585 00:39:09.519 --> 00:39:13.119 I was lucky to be able to do that and just to have these 586 00:39:13.159 --> 00:39:16.199 conversations and just to hear a lot of his stories, which I mean, 587 00:39:16.519 --> 00:39:24.320 just a phenomenal storyteller. I loved his podcast because it really dove into the 588 00:39:24.360 --> 00:39:29.920 monoculture that had gotten into your brain by osmosis. So those of us of 589 00:39:29.960 --> 00:39:34.920 a certain age that grew up on five channels kind of knew who people were 590 00:39:35.079 --> 00:39:39.320 because Bugs Bunny did a Humphrey Bogart impression that kind of stuff, and Gilbert 591 00:39:39.320 --> 00:39:44.079 would talk about the lawn Cheney's of the world, and you kind of sort 592 00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:46.480 of knew who these people were. Whereas if my son is twenty one now, 593 00:39:46.519 --> 00:39:50.159 if I showed him anything from the twentieth century, I could be like, 594 00:39:50.159 --> 00:39:52.159 this is John Travolta. He's really famous. He would have no idea. 595 00:39:52.440 --> 00:39:57.280 It's just a different tay, it really is. I'm always fascinated when 596 00:39:57.280 --> 00:40:01.199 I get emails from people in college or just people that are in their twenties 597 00:40:01.360 --> 00:40:07.119 that listen to the Carson Podcast and found Johnny on YouTube, and yeah, 598 00:40:07.159 --> 00:40:15.480 that people just get into cavit or anything from from the retro years and yeah, 599 00:40:15.639 --> 00:40:19.960 the typically that no one under forty knows who Carson is. I would 600 00:40:20.159 --> 00:40:22.920 probably say people under thirty, I don't even know if Leno, I mean 601 00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:27.920 Leno said it was like only a couple of years after he left that you 602 00:40:27.960 --> 00:40:30.679 know, he was in my home where I grew up a lot on Hershey, 603 00:40:30.719 --> 00:40:34.559 Pennsylvania, and he was at a theater and somebody younger person was like, 604 00:40:34.599 --> 00:40:37.559 have you done anything else other than this, like stand up and no 605 00:40:37.679 --> 00:40:42.840 clue he was hosted the Tonight's Show or anything. Yeah, people forget pretty 606 00:40:42.880 --> 00:40:45.280 quickly, but now they did great. I mean Frank Santa Padre, who 607 00:40:45.320 --> 00:40:51.039 was wonderful, did pretty much all the research of the guest, and gil 608 00:40:51.119 --> 00:40:55.400 would just show up and just you know, sometimes even fall asleep during the 609 00:40:55.440 --> 00:41:00.480 taping. But yeah, Fry, it was a good pair because Gilbert was 610 00:41:00.559 --> 00:41:02.679 charming and had some good questions. But if it was bored, man, 611 00:41:02.719 --> 00:41:06.960 you can tell sometimes like thirty minutes goes by, it's just Frank and you 612 00:41:07.320 --> 00:41:10.320 like, where's gil and it's like, yeah, he's Especially in the early 613 00:41:10.400 --> 00:41:15.760 years it was like The Frank Show with Yabbert and then but it's the same 614 00:41:15.760 --> 00:41:19.519 thing we keep talking about, right the first year, you're kind of finding 615 00:41:19.519 --> 00:41:22.440 your way. Yeah, they did a great job. I mean, talk 616 00:41:22.519 --> 00:41:28.199 to Frank about this. Sometimes it's just like it's so heartbreaking and obviously it's 617 00:41:28.199 --> 00:41:30.280 inevitable. At how many people have passed away on both of our shows. 618 00:41:30.280 --> 00:41:35.159 I mean, I think with Carson podcasts, we've had forty people that I 619 00:41:35.199 --> 00:41:37.360 interviewed. I mean a lot of people in their nineties, late eighties and 620 00:41:37.400 --> 00:41:42.239 stuff. And then you have people like they did this amazing photo like a 621 00:41:42.320 --> 00:41:45.280 year before they all passed, But it's like it's a photo. It's like 622 00:41:45.400 --> 00:41:50.880 Gilbert Godfrey, Bob Saggan and Louis Anderson, and these are people I'm like, 623 00:41:50.920 --> 00:41:52.559 oh, I put off interview and then they're gonna be around forever. 624 00:41:52.639 --> 00:41:55.360 And luckily I got all of them to do the podcast, and then within 625 00:41:55.400 --> 00:42:00.480 a year they're all gone. It's just I feel very I never thought like 626 00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:04.239 a Bob Einstein, who I had on twice so I got to know a 627 00:42:04.280 --> 00:42:06.880 bit and talk on the phone. It's just like you don't think about them 628 00:42:07.039 --> 00:42:10.280 being gone, and I'm just so glad that I was able to get them, 629 00:42:10.519 --> 00:42:15.000 and you just never know when they did the same thing. They just 630 00:42:15.039 --> 00:42:19.760 got so many people who just think are going to be around for a while 631 00:42:19.800 --> 00:42:22.760 longer, like Peter Fonda, and they were just able to get these stories 632 00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:27.199 that some of them I'm sure have never been told or quite told like that. 633 00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:32.360 Looking to the future, how do you think late night factors in the 634 00:42:32.440 --> 00:42:37.679 streaming era? Is there a play? Does it have to be eleven thirty? 635 00:42:37.719 --> 00:42:40.559 Could we stream Malaney at eight o'clock? Do we not need this anymore? 636 00:42:42.239 --> 00:42:45.199 Even the network shows. If Jimmy Kimmel does retire, which I don't 637 00:42:45.199 --> 00:42:50.679 believe he will, do you even bother in terms of the streaming, I 638 00:42:50.719 --> 00:42:54.320 think for one of those shows to survive on streaming that they're going to probably 639 00:42:54.519 --> 00:42:59.400 take a more mullany approach, which is like, maybe they do a show 640 00:42:59.639 --> 00:43:02.719 like Lanny, does it like maybe four times a year or whoever it is, 641 00:43:02.760 --> 00:43:08.079 maybe does like six here at a time. But I can't and I 642 00:43:08.119 --> 00:43:14.840 could be wrong that there would be anybody doing a show five nights a week 643 00:43:14.880 --> 00:43:16.400 on streaming where they felt they had to check in. I mean, so 644 00:43:16.519 --> 00:43:23.519 many of the mat treks are people watching the next day on YouTube and online. 645 00:43:24.599 --> 00:43:29.519 They're just there has to be a reason for people to make it. 646 00:43:29.599 --> 00:43:32.639 Appointment television that they're going to stay up and there I don't know if there 647 00:43:32.679 --> 00:43:38.119 was a danger when Dave was at twelve thirty where you just never knew what 648 00:43:38.199 --> 00:43:42.920 was going to happen, and part of that just to stay up, and 649 00:43:42.960 --> 00:43:46.559 I felt like I always had the expectation there's just gonna be something a bit 650 00:43:46.639 --> 00:43:49.800 dangerous what he was going to say, what was going to happen, and 651 00:43:49.840 --> 00:43:53.960 that I don't know if that exists now. I think for the networks it's 652 00:43:54.039 --> 00:43:59.079 still a cash cow. Not as much money as it was. I mean, 653 00:43:59.119 --> 00:44:01.599 the viewers every year or go down on broadcast TV, but they're still 654 00:44:01.920 --> 00:44:05.960 I mean, you have Harrison ford On and you're paying him scale. I 655 00:44:05.960 --> 00:44:09.400 mean that started with I believe Steve Allen that there was somebody over there producer 656 00:44:09.480 --> 00:44:15.320 on Steve Allen's Tonight Show that's like, no, let Sullivan pay them exuberant 657 00:44:15.559 --> 00:44:17.679 money. We're just going to pay scale. And it stuck. So you 658 00:44:17.719 --> 00:44:22.360 can still get these amazing guests. You're paying them not a lot of money. 659 00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:30.079 And yeah, I mean there's this whole myth that Cordon's show was losing 660 00:44:30.159 --> 00:44:32.280 money and that's why James Corden left, which could not be further from the 661 00:44:32.360 --> 00:44:37.239 truth. It was so not true. They were still making money. It's 662 00:44:37.320 --> 00:44:42.519 just they were not what they were. I mean say that with broadcast television. 663 00:44:42.559 --> 00:44:46.239 I remember when I was an intern on a Spen City Michael J Fox 664 00:44:46.280 --> 00:44:52.960 ABC, when they were still throwing around crazy network money and the parties and 665 00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:57.320 just everything was this and then they just the network started. I mean that 666 00:44:57.400 --> 00:45:01.199 was back when people were leaving Saturday Night Live. I think it was near 667 00:45:01.199 --> 00:45:04.920 the end. I remember Cherry O Terry and Chris Catan after I said out. 668 00:45:04.960 --> 00:45:07.280 They got big network deals, her at CBS and him at ABC, 669 00:45:07.800 --> 00:45:12.320 and it was still like the peak at the network paying writers that couldn't even 670 00:45:12.360 --> 00:45:16.639 write creates that comes like crazy money for development deals and that's I remember when 671 00:45:16.679 --> 00:45:21.599 it started stopping, and it's just, oh man, it's just network. 672 00:45:22.159 --> 00:45:28.079 It happened with network. It's yeah, it's in terms of the primetime stuff, 673 00:45:28.199 --> 00:45:31.119 with how it's dealt with now it's night and day and I have Yeah, 674 00:45:31.480 --> 00:45:36.360 it seems like with late night it's just different. I mean, I 675 00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:38.519 hope you know I'll share this with you. I haven't really talked about it 676 00:45:38.559 --> 00:45:43.199 this much. There were two late night shows where the network made the head 677 00:45:43.239 --> 00:45:47.119 producers and the hosts take significant pay cuts to stay on the air. It 678 00:45:47.159 --> 00:45:52.280 was never talked about publicly that I'm aware of, but these are people that 679 00:45:52.360 --> 00:45:55.960 I think would be very surprised their shows were made to take ahead just because 680 00:45:57.360 --> 00:46:00.880 they weren't what they were, and it's what it is. Shows kept going, 681 00:46:00.920 --> 00:46:02.719 and as possible, one of the I was paying out of his own 682 00:46:02.719 --> 00:46:07.960 pocket to his staff the producers just to make up for the money. I'm 683 00:46:07.960 --> 00:46:13.159 not sure, but everything changes and stuff. I think those franchises will still 684 00:46:13.199 --> 00:46:16.559 be right. I mean, NBC very smart, like just put Fallon's tenth 685 00:46:16.599 --> 00:46:21.519 anniversary in primetime and it did well. But as I told somebody over there, 686 00:46:21.519 --> 00:46:23.360 they should be doing that every year. A couple of years ago is 687 00:46:23.360 --> 00:46:27.679 talking into somebody high up on the Totem pole and I'm like, you have 688 00:46:27.760 --> 00:46:34.079 to remind your viewers that Jimmy Fallon has done all this memorable stuff on the 689 00:46:34.159 --> 00:46:39.440 shows with guests and gotten all these people that normally don't do talk shows and 690 00:46:39.440 --> 00:46:43.760 stuff, and just remind your viewers. I mean, Falen's whole template was 691 00:46:43.800 --> 00:46:45.800 trying to be Johnny Carbson. He's still to this day doesn't come out before 692 00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:49.440 the show to do a warm up like most of the other shows, because 693 00:46:49.480 --> 00:46:53.199 Johnny did not. Kimmel when he first started, for most of his years 694 00:46:53.199 --> 00:46:57.719 would come out before the show because Dave did. But then Rickles was told 695 00:46:57.800 --> 00:46:59.840 him, I'm like, why are you coming out beforehand? It ruins the 696 00:46:59.920 --> 00:47:02.559 energy you want to come out like being shot out of a cannon. And 697 00:47:04.159 --> 00:47:09.559 Kimmel said He's tried it, and Wrickles was right immediately completely. Jimmy noticed 698 00:47:09.599 --> 00:47:13.400 it was better for him not to do the warm up, but Fallon, 699 00:47:13.639 --> 00:47:15.960 you know, Carson didn't do the warm up. Fallon doesn't do the warm 700 00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:19.880 up. Falons and Carson's old studio in six B. There's a lot of 701 00:47:20.159 --> 00:47:23.360 similarities towards both of them, but one of them that he should be doing 702 00:47:23.480 --> 00:47:28.360 every year is an anniversary show. I mean, you have to remind your 703 00:47:28.440 --> 00:47:35.480 audience of the especially in prime time, why you exist and the work that 704 00:47:36.639 --> 00:47:38.239 because he did. I mean, it's a different show than the other Tonight 705 00:47:38.280 --> 00:47:43.000 shows. But as a clip show, they have some amazing, amazing stuff 706 00:47:43.039 --> 00:47:45.159 and I hope that they continue to do that with the clip shows. Yeah, 707 00:47:45.800 --> 00:47:50.400 again, back to Letterman, where those first five years that he did 708 00:47:50.440 --> 00:47:53.480 anniversary shows, and I think you make a great point that Fallon for a 709 00:47:53.519 --> 00:47:59.159 clip show. Fallon's the one I mentioned as somebody high at NBC that when 710 00:47:59.159 --> 00:48:01.800 they do the clips show, they should be eight h because six B is 711 00:48:02.599 --> 00:48:06.400 you know. I mean, they expanded it, but it's still a tiny 712 00:48:06.480 --> 00:48:08.840 studio. But he did it at eight h like Leno when he was in 713 00:48:08.880 --> 00:48:14.440 New York. It's just the energy of having more people, especially people close 714 00:48:14.519 --> 00:48:16.719 up. You can have people really close up, like if you watch Saturday 715 00:48:16.800 --> 00:48:21.199 Night Live, they have those seats that are just right there. And when 716 00:48:21.280 --> 00:48:22.960 Leno the first time he went to New York, I mean I was there. 717 00:48:23.000 --> 00:48:27.440 I was in those seats right close the thrust Age too. It was 718 00:48:27.480 --> 00:48:30.519 so successful and worked so well. He went back to Burbank and that's when 719 00:48:30.559 --> 00:48:34.800 they built the thrust stage that was right there. And I felt that that 720 00:48:34.960 --> 00:48:38.280 Fallon would just it would have just been so much more exciting for him in 721 00:48:38.320 --> 00:48:42.079 the audience of just a different energy if he did it in eight age for 722 00:48:42.119 --> 00:48:45.719 the anniversary shows. And maybe they will at some point, but it makes 723 00:48:45.719 --> 00:48:49.719 a difference. The reason I'm laughing now is last night I was at my 724 00:48:50.039 --> 00:48:52.880 daughter had a school performance, and a bunch of the students got up and 725 00:48:52.920 --> 00:48:57.480 sang songs, and I was doing this thing that I tend to do where 726 00:48:57.679 --> 00:49:00.320 I'm the last personal clap. If you clap, I give it one more 727 00:49:00.320 --> 00:49:02.199 clap. And my older daughter looks over at me and she's like, flexing 728 00:49:02.239 --> 00:49:07.239 your ego, and I told her I started doing this. It was my 729 00:49:07.400 --> 00:49:10.880 fifteenth birthday and I got to see Late Night with David Letterman. You had 730 00:49:10.880 --> 00:49:14.760 to be fifteen to get in, and I got in, and my buddy 731 00:49:14.800 --> 00:49:17.079 and I wanted to hear ourselves on the playback, so we just did one 732 00:49:17.119 --> 00:49:21.559 extra clap every time, and I've kind of never stopped doing it. And 733 00:49:21.599 --> 00:49:23.400 then as my career went along and I became a producer, I learned the 734 00:49:23.519 --> 00:49:28.239 art of clapping louder and dragging the crowd up with you with your clap, 735 00:49:28.280 --> 00:49:31.199 and it just never stopped. So just the memory of the studio there brought 736 00:49:31.199 --> 00:49:34.880 that back. I mean, I have so much empathy because I worked in 737 00:49:34.920 --> 00:49:37.280 the medium, and I know how hard it is for those hosts or for 738 00:49:37.360 --> 00:49:42.360 performers to be up on stage when they're not getting that energy from the audience. 739 00:49:42.480 --> 00:49:45.159 I'm the clapper, I'm the laugher. If I'm invited from somebody to 740 00:49:45.239 --> 00:49:49.320 go to one of those shows, I will tell the people next to me, 741 00:49:49.440 --> 00:49:54.199 I'm going to be laughing really, really loud. It's one of those 742 00:49:54.239 --> 00:49:58.920 things where I've talked to the host and the audiences have no idea. But 743 00:49:59.400 --> 00:50:04.400 usually late night audience, I don't know, twenty percent of the people are 744 00:50:04.480 --> 00:50:07.679 so excited to be there and so was starstruck that they forget to laugh, 745 00:50:07.079 --> 00:50:13.320 especially during the monologue opening remarks, and then you just have people some people 746 00:50:13.320 --> 00:50:16.639 that just are not They laugh, but they're just not audible. And it 747 00:50:16.679 --> 00:50:19.639 was just I mean, when I were do on The Colbert Report, we 748 00:50:19.719 --> 00:50:22.920 got mostly good audiences, but it was one hundred and seven seats every night. 749 00:50:22.960 --> 00:50:25.719 There would just be people that were so excited to be there and I 750 00:50:25.920 --> 00:50:30.920 watched them and they just weren't. So they would have these giant grins and 751 00:50:30.119 --> 00:50:35.440 expressions, but they would not laugh. I would have to before the show 752 00:50:35.960 --> 00:50:37.920 always talk to them and to remind them to laugh, and it helped. 753 00:50:38.199 --> 00:50:43.360 But still there's people, and all the laughs count, they really really do. 754 00:50:43.480 --> 00:50:49.239 Letterman was the most obsessed host with the audience, and not the best 755 00:50:49.320 --> 00:50:53.480 way that I thought was probably positive for him. But yeah, to get 756 00:50:53.480 --> 00:50:59.199 the clapping, which the host. Actually the clapping is important, but they 757 00:50:59.239 --> 00:51:01.440 all want laugh more than clapping, like I would bother Letterman when there would 758 00:51:01.440 --> 00:51:05.480 be too much clap in for sure on his show. They just want the 759 00:51:05.519 --> 00:51:09.039 pure laughs, but clapping, definitely, the energy that you're talking about is 760 00:51:09.079 --> 00:51:13.079 what they need. And when I go to one of those shows, I'm 761 00:51:13.079 --> 00:51:19.159 exhausted afterwards, just because I feel that responsibility as an audience member and just 762 00:51:19.480 --> 00:51:22.920 knowing how tough that is for them, just that I'm going to be that 763 00:51:22.559 --> 00:51:28.360 person. We've talked on this podcast a lot about clapter. Yes, watching 764 00:51:28.440 --> 00:51:31.639 us special in the comedian does four minutes and gets applause, I'm not sure 765 00:51:31.679 --> 00:51:37.360 that's the best thing. Now, this medium is different. The audience is 766 00:51:37.360 --> 00:51:38.800 hearing the audio version. You and I are looking at each other in video 767 00:51:38.840 --> 00:51:43.840 as we record, and I'm smiling and sometimes pointing at you and giving you 768 00:51:43.920 --> 00:51:47.519 some feedback. But I'm deliberately not stepping on your stories. And that's back 769 00:51:47.639 --> 00:51:51.559 to the you know, everyone's going to tell me this was a really good 770 00:51:51.559 --> 00:51:53.840 episode. What they're going to mean is Mark was great, but I'm going 771 00:51:53.880 --> 00:51:57.440 to get credit for it because I'm shutting up and letting you tell these wonderful 772 00:51:57.440 --> 00:51:59.679 stories. It's just different. I could sit here and laugh, you know, 773 00:51:59.679 --> 00:52:01.960 at every thing you're saying. But I'm just choosing phenomenal broadcaster. I 774 00:52:01.960 --> 00:52:06.960 mean, there's certain people that and it took me and I'm not even putting 775 00:52:06.960 --> 00:52:10.159 myself in your league, but it took me a while to be able to 776 00:52:12.960 --> 00:52:15.280 not step on people. Once in a while, it'll still happen, like 777 00:52:15.360 --> 00:52:20.159 I'll if I feel like I need to interject something, I try really not 778 00:52:20.239 --> 00:52:24.239 to let the person speak. But I think you're right what you just said. 779 00:52:24.320 --> 00:52:30.400 But yeah, it's definitely you should get the credit. I mean, 780 00:52:30.440 --> 00:52:32.519 you're setting me up for all these things. You know what you're talking about, 781 00:52:32.519 --> 00:52:37.079 your professional and you make it easy versus some of the people that have 782 00:52:37.199 --> 00:52:40.800 taught to me, and it's just like pulling teeth sometimes, and those are 783 00:52:40.840 --> 00:52:44.519 the worst. I had a comic on who was a fan of and I 784 00:52:44.559 --> 00:52:46.679 was just getting nothing back and I cut it short. I just I couldn't. 785 00:52:46.760 --> 00:52:52.480 Yes, like, there's certain people that, Yeah, I think there's 786 00:52:52.480 --> 00:52:55.320 only one or two maybe I couldn't air. And I know Gilbert and Frank 787 00:52:55.400 --> 00:52:59.599 had the same thing that happened with at least one or two people and it's 788 00:52:59.639 --> 00:53:02.840 just I guess they're trying as hard as they can, but it doesn't really 789 00:53:04.159 --> 00:53:07.639 can't doesn't show that they are. I would hope that they're trying their best 790 00:53:07.639 --> 00:53:12.000 and it's just what it is. But yeah, you can tell pretty quickly 791 00:53:12.159 --> 00:53:16.760 if it's going well and if you know, it's those times when it's like 792 00:53:16.800 --> 00:53:22.679 pulling teeth. Yeah, not fun. So Mark, I've kept you twice 793 00:53:22.920 --> 00:53:24.960 what I asked for. You've been very generous. Oh yeah, it's great. 794 00:53:24.960 --> 00:53:30.639 Proper podcast plugs, Oh you're nice. Sell your show Inside Late Night 795 00:53:30.719 --> 00:53:35.840 with Mark Malcoff on Apple podcast, on Spotify, wherever you get the podcast. 796 00:53:36.039 --> 00:53:39.400 Every week we are going to be telling late night stories, the stories 797 00:53:39.400 --> 00:53:45.000 that people do not know for the most part, and just going a deep 798 00:53:45.079 --> 00:53:49.920 dive. I love Dana Carvey and David Spades podcast Fly on the Wall at 799 00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:52.719 SNL. They talk about SNL, but I learned pretty much, very little 800 00:53:52.760 --> 00:53:57.199 to nothing. They don't go deep. It's very fun and I like it 801 00:53:57.239 --> 00:54:00.360 and people should check it out. But this is the one where people will 802 00:54:00.400 --> 00:54:07.159 walk away. Were talking to Robert Smigel about stuff or Spike Ferrist and where 803 00:54:07.559 --> 00:54:09.440 people are going to walk Spike was great. See I just stepped on. 804 00:54:09.760 --> 00:54:13.639 It's great. He was was great. I was excited. I wanted to 805 00:54:13.639 --> 00:54:15.639 talk to him because I just knew that there were stories that I did not 806 00:54:15.840 --> 00:54:22.480 think the audience probably knew about his time at Dave in SNL that we would 807 00:54:22.519 --> 00:54:25.519 have those type of stories. And I knew from his podcast he's a great 808 00:54:25.559 --> 00:54:30.039 storyteller. And yeah, he worked in the medium. He had his own 809 00:54:30.079 --> 00:54:34.119 show on Fox for three years, Talk Show with Spike Ferrist And so we're 810 00:54:34.480 --> 00:54:37.760 talking to people like that. We had Rachel Dratch from Saturday Night Live, 811 00:54:37.320 --> 00:54:42.719 David cross Is coming up, Rob Cordery from The Daily Show, Michael ian 812 00:54:42.800 --> 00:54:47.199 Black who was on the State, and did Letterman's show Mean Worldwide Pants produced 813 00:54:47.360 --> 00:54:51.119 Ed which he was on, So we is Letterman stories. He was the 814 00:54:51.199 --> 00:54:53.679 number two finalist when Craig Ferguson got the gig, So we talk about all 815 00:54:53.719 --> 00:54:59.840 that drama. So yeah, just really just talking to these people. Every 816 00:55:00.679 --> 00:55:04.000 I learned things I can use my knowledge from over the years, which I 817 00:55:04.079 --> 00:55:07.320 have nowhere else. The old podcasts, I couldn't really tell these stories that 818 00:55:07.400 --> 00:55:14.840 I know as well, so there's nowhere else I know that people are going 819 00:55:14.920 --> 00:55:19.159 to find these stories. It's great when these people go on other shows and 820 00:55:19.199 --> 00:55:22.440 stuff, and occasionally stuff will come up, but the research that I put 821 00:55:22.440 --> 00:55:28.960 into it hopefully will show. And the guests have been very nice to comment 822 00:55:29.119 --> 00:55:32.719 on that. They appreciate that, and we'll see where it goes. But 823 00:55:32.840 --> 00:55:38.480 I definitely think a big emphasis will be on Saturday Night Live, stuff that 824 00:55:38.519 --> 00:55:43.920 has never been talked about and good year for it. Yeah, I hope, 825 00:55:43.960 --> 00:55:46.039 so, I really do. And then you know, I would love 826 00:55:46.079 --> 00:55:52.880 to have Cavet back. I would love to talk to even I want to 827 00:55:52.880 --> 00:55:55.840 do devote a show or two to certain shows like Magic Johnson or at Thick 828 00:55:55.840 --> 00:56:00.239 of the Night and talk to the people that were there about what went wrong. 829 00:56:01.760 --> 00:56:06.079 So I will hit everything we can talk to. I'd love to talk 830 00:56:06.119 --> 00:56:13.079 to Bob Costas later. With Bob Costas is that show is incredible the people 831 00:56:13.159 --> 00:56:15.360 he talked to, and it was almost like an early podcast. It had 832 00:56:15.360 --> 00:56:19.400 that feel of like that's what I say, yeah, right, the first 833 00:56:19.400 --> 00:56:22.320 show. I would love to talk to Costas. I've met him once or 834 00:56:22.360 --> 00:56:28.280 twice. But I'm just hoping to talk to these people and just yeap the 835 00:56:28.519 --> 00:56:32.639 pull the curtain aside like we did with Johnny Carson for almost four hundred episodes, 836 00:56:32.719 --> 00:56:37.159 So yeah, was it that. Yeah, we I kind of kept 837 00:56:37.199 --> 00:56:42.199 going. I just was really really tired and it just didn't make sense for 838 00:56:42.280 --> 00:56:45.679 me. But we did almost four hundred episodes of that show. It was 839 00:56:45.719 --> 00:56:52.599 three hundred and ninety some certainly. So. Yeah. Late Nighter dot Com 840 00:56:52.679 --> 00:56:55.119 Forward Slash podcasts. You can listen to the podcast as well and see it 841 00:56:55.840 --> 00:56:59.880 pretty good. Normally. I think they've been doing transcripts as well, which 842 00:56:59.920 --> 00:57:02.079 is really nice on Late Night or and you can go to Late Night or 843 00:57:02.119 --> 00:57:05.599 just for if you want to know ratings, the guests that are coming up, 844 00:57:05.599 --> 00:57:08.679 and they've Bill Carter talked exclusively to Jimmy Fallon. I know they've had 845 00:57:09.119 --> 00:57:14.320 some of the Daily Show people exclusive interviews. So definitely with Late Night Or 846 00:57:14.320 --> 00:57:16.360 they're doing stuff that you're not gonna find anywhere else. And I'm glad that 847 00:57:16.400 --> 00:57:21.320 you like this site. Yeah, I think it just it makes sense for 848 00:57:21.400 --> 00:57:23.480 me to be to be there with them, and I'm glad that they're having 849 00:57:23.519 --> 00:57:28.199 me and they've just been very supportive of me. Fab Well, I hope 850 00:57:28.239 --> 00:57:30.800 you come back, you know, with someone something comes up the Late Night 851 00:57:30.880 --> 00:57:32.360 Maybe I'll use that in schume. Oh please, this is great. I 852 00:57:32.360 --> 00:57:37.960 mean, back, I don't get to talk to a lot of people like 853 00:57:37.079 --> 00:57:42.800 this that know what they're talking about with Late Night in terms of the history, 854 00:57:43.000 --> 00:57:46.199 in terms of the power players. It doesn't happen a lot that I 855 00:57:46.239 --> 00:57:51.400 get to talk to somebody like that. So, yeah, this was fun, 856 00:57:51.519 --> 00:57:53.719 and yeah, I'd love to come back at some point, And yeah, 857 00:57:53.840 --> 00:57:57.559 I appreciate you asking me. Man, wasn't he great? I hope 858 00:57:57.599 --> 00:58:00.840 you really enjoyed that. Inside the Late Night is the name of that podcast. 859 00:58:00.960 --> 00:58:04.800 Definitely check that one out. I hope to have morek on again. 860 00:58:04.840 --> 00:58:07.840 I really enjoy that. Could have done another hour easily back tomorrow with a 861 00:58:07.880 --> 00:58:09.679 normal episode. Hope you enjoy that one. See ya.