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Knox listeners. I am Dan Pavalley coming at you with Adam frommel and my
puppy Wade who's sitting on my lap as we do this and being highly annoying.
Still love him. Though. We are continuing on with our decade ranking
series. We're up to the top ten players of the past decade four the
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In just a moment, Adam, how are you doing. I'm gonna put
on my old man pants here for a minute and say that I'm spending every
waking moment wishing, praying, fervently hoping that the goddamn fireworks are done finally.
I don't know about you, but in our neighborhood we've we've had fireworks
going off nightly from like nine pm until two am for about two and a
half weeks now, and it's a it's gotten quite old. As as the
owner of two dogs with an eighteen month old, we even had a Robin's
nest in our front yard and the nest has been abandoned because of the fireworks,
which is really sad and it's I'm ready for it to be done.
It has been the same story here, and as someone with two dogs,
I try to understand that the stance of people want to let off fireworks.
I don't want to be that person. But when it was one am on
Sunday night, a work night, and they're going off, like no,
that's not okay. Whether you have an infant or puppies, it just doesn't
matter that that was not cool. So I'm totally with you. But people
have more time on their hands, it seems if you know, they're still
working from home, or maybe they're not working at the moment, which I
obviously hate to find out, but that does seem why there's an uptick in
fireworks. People are bored is what I really feel like. And what could
be more American than torturing all our veterans with PTSD? Are you ready to
rank the top no? Follow up on that one. Huh? Are you
ready to rank the top ten Milwaukee Bucks of the decade? I am there.
There are going to be significantly fewer fireworks in this one. Yeah,
this was this was a rough one. Before you get get us the number
ten, can you, as usual take us through a brief description of how
this shin date works? I can, Yeah. So, as always,
we've had you, the listeners, the fans contribute via the polls that we've
put out on the NBA math Twitter account asking for your top ten members of
the Milwaukee Bucks during this decade, which dates back to twenty ten twenty eleven.
So we have three different components. We have the fans voting, we
have my ballot, and we have Dan's ballot, combining those together to form
a composite score, which is the top ten that we're going over today.
So in the Buck's composite rankings, we had Andrew Bogit, Jabari Parker,
Monte Ellis, and Greg Monroe just barely miss out on the top ten.
Spoiler alert. This was weird, especially at the bottom. It was hard
to find people who were actually deserving of a top ten spot. But we
did have Brandon Knight check in at number ten solely because of Dan's contributions.
Brandon Knight did check in at number twelve on the fan vote. He rose
as high as fifth on two ballots. I had him sparely outside my top
ten. Dan had him up at number eight, which means the floor is
yours. To justify that one. Look. So in his time there two
seasons spanning two seasons, he averaged seventeen point nine points five assists per game,
shot thirty six point one percent from three about forty six percent on twos.
That is the time that earned him the Monster contract he ended up playing
on that became an albatross, And I'm not going to factor that in because
those two seasons with the Bucks were pretty good. He never led in above
average offense, and that's probably the red flag here. But you know,
if you're gonna put up numbers like that over a semi consistent period of time
in this exercise, specifically where everything was so wide open that season, and
let's say a half he spent in Milwaukee's it still ended up being over one
hundred games. That matters. There was over the competition at the bottom just
wasn't two fierce. And again I recognized that the Bucks offense was never elite
under him, But those were the best one hundred and twenty four games of
his career, I think you can safely say. And it wasn't too much
of a mirage because he had not so much during the time he played in
Phoenix that year after he was traded, But his first full season in Phoenix,
he was really good, and so this wasn't just him maybe capitalizing on
on a mirage. He clearly wasn't as good as these numbers show, but
he dealt with injuries after he ended up with Phoenix, and that definitely contributed
to how far he fell. So I was actually surprised that I am the
reason he is in the top ten. I thought he might be a consensus
pick. I remember watching Brandon Knight breakout on the Bucks after his failure of
a tenure with the Detroit Pistons and thinking that it steemed legit that this was
the start. This was a twenty two year old kind of coming into his
own and as an offensive force who could score from all over the court even
if he didn't have the most consistent three point shot, who could capably facilitate
even if passing isn't the thing that he looked to do most often. But
then I think it also became clear that, you know, there are some
guys who put up big stats on losing teams, and they aren't necessarily just
empty calories. I'm thinking about like Trey Young on the Atlanta Hawks, Devin
Booker on the Phoenix Suns in previous seasons, Guys where you watch them and
you're still just filled with this obvious feeling that they're really good basketball players and
not just a product of their circumstances. I'm not quite sure that Brandon Knight
fit into that category. He played for a fifteen win Bucks team during his
first season and just had a perpetual green light and capitalized on it. But
I just looking back, I think that there was maybe a little bit too
much optimism about his tenure. Now that said, like, I do totally
get putting him in the top ten. He was probably the toughest cut for
me. But fourteenth and minutes played with the empty calories offense, like it
just wasn't quite enough for me to want to have him there. That's Brandon
Knights still never been to the playoffs in his career, and I guess he
might not be. I don't know that he's going to be end up on
a team long term anyway. I will say what I also liked aboutom is
he was someone who could play off the ball as well in the backcourt.
That gets tough if you want to play with another point guard because he's only
six two. But that optionality, and you know how I love optionality.
That really that did it for me as well. And so it was just
look, it is just a chaos fest at the bottom of these buck ranking
at the bottom of the Bucks rankings. I think that contributes to the thinking
too. Is optionality or portability the bigger dan fa Valley buzzword. Oh,
it's gotta be portability. I feel like I'd probably say that a lot more.
Who knows, I feel like you say optionality more, but it's also
a more common word. So like when you factor in that second part,
I feel like portability might might rise to the top of the Favalley Power rankings.
Yeah, that's fair. The optionality is definitely commonly used. I do
feel like I'm one of the few podcasters or writers that consistently uses portability.
I have yet to stumble across anyone else who uses it. Maybe one day,
maybe one day, maybe this will start a trend for the dozen or
so people listening to this podcast. Yeah that between that and theirness, we
have things that should really catch on. We have the words, we have
the best words. Theirness, I feel like, didn't really come up in
the last in the Miami Heat rankings now I'm thinking about it that was recorded.
Really didn't I think that I was it was it was more about like
those moments than the theirness, probably because there have been moments speaking of theirness.
Though number nine typifies theirness, John Henson one hundred percent typifies theirness for
the Milwaukee Bucks, I was the only person who had him in the top
ten this time. He was a thirteenth and the fan vote did not make
the cut for Dan. I had him up at number seven. Fourth and
minutes played during the decade for the Milwaukee Bucks. And even if he was
never a star or even a starter for most of his time, he was
just this consistent presence, I guess is the best way to put it.
Like, he was never gonna blow you away on your side of the ball,
but a consistently solid interior defender who didn't have much switchability just before that
kind of became at a premium in the front corp and a guy on offense
who was going to knock down mid range jumpers, was going to serve as
a rim runner and didn't necessarily try to over extend himself. And there's value
in accepting and thriving within your role. Yeah, I think what really held
him back for me was it felt like they were forever waiting for him to
turn into their center of the future, and it just despite ending up with
a you know, fairly significant four year deal from them, it just never
it just never came came to be that way. And so he's he typifies
their in this, But I feel like his tenure there was largely unimpressive,
and maybe it would have been different if he ever was there clear cut big
of the future, but he just felt like this this stop gap where they
had him, they kept him, but they were always searching for the next
best option after him, even while he was on the roster. I thought
he was gonna be so good coming out of North Carolina. He's just he's
one of those guys where I watched him throughout his three years with the Tar
Heels and saw that consistent improvement, saw him starting to expand his range,
saw him improving his free throw percentage and having a better feel for the game,
and I was like, this dude's going to be a star. Twelfth
pick, our fourteenth overall pick in twenty twelve, and just I don't know
that he fizzled, but he really just stagnated. There definitely wasn't enough optionality
there you go from him on the offensive end. I mean, I mean
you talked a little bit about his defensive portability there you go, but on
offense, like it's not that you needed him to have a jumper, that
he needed to space the floor really or that he needed to work with it,
like he needed to at least be a little bit better of a pastor.
It needed to be something that kind of separated him from the thick of
rim running bigs on that end of the floor. And I don't think there
there ever really was. Maybe some buck stands will disagree, and that's totally
fine, you can yell at me on Twitter or or something. So I
think that definitely, you know, not so much in this discussion specifically,
but that that's a talking point for his time in Milwaukee. It is a
very different player than the guy who checks in at number eight, even though
they filled like kind of similar roles. Number eight is Larry Sanders, who
was the first person who unanimously appeared on all three components. He was number
eight for the fans, he was number nine for me, and he was
number ten for you. Sanders, what a weird and brief career it was.
It's it kind of felt like, you know that shooting star that you
know, just it catches everyone's attention and then and just disappears and you pretty
quickly forget about it. When when he was breaking into a bigger role with
the Bucks in twenty twelve thirteen, he was just the embodiment of defensive and
excitement. I think, just a guy with interminable laye who played with so
much energy and so much passion and so much hustle and just seemed to really
just feed off of blocking shots and consuming those interior attempts. I every time
I hear his name, I picture it written in all caps with an exclamation
point at the end. Shout out to Zach low there for doing that in
all of his columns, and it just it didn't last. But I think
that the level that he reached in terms of excitement and invigoration to a fan
base that was struggling to find reasons to continue to support a team that was
largely floundering, was really important. Yeah, for sure. And look,
for a while, it just looked like he was going to be one of
the elite rim running floor protectors in the league. And the rash of injuries
he suffered was just something They weren't always related. He had thumb issues,
he had back issues, he had knee issues, and those every plays in
seventy one games in the twenty thirteen season. Like he's just really never available
for Milwaukee in the two seasons after that, and then, as we know,
he left the NBA, tried to attempt to come back with the Calves
that didn't really pan out. And so, as you said at the top,
it was this really weird career trajectory. And I actually forgot how many
seasons he logged at least a few games for the Bucks within this decade.
I mean, we're talking about five different ones, and so he has the
theirness factor a little bit, even though the game total isn't up there since
he only played in two hundred and thirty three games, And so he felt
like the guy who was actually tabbed to be that center for long term in
for Milwaukee, and I thought he really was going to be that solution,
and injuries predominantly made it so that it never really went that way. I
would be curious if you dropped fully healthy, let's say, twenty twelve,
twenty thirteen Larry Sanders in the NBA today, I just kind of wonder what
he looks like. I think he's still fine. You needed him to probably
do more as a passer as well, and would he be strong enough to
go up against some of these other bigs. But he had some really good
mobile on the defensive end, and then he was just this brick wall around
the basket, and and so that coupled with he was seemed fairly reliable at
his peak anyway as a finisher while he was running running towards the basket.
So just a fascinating player to talk about, and I just wonder if the
injuries never hit, what we what we're taught, what we're saying about him
right now. It doesn't even matter if he was on the Bucks or not.
Is he higher up these rankings, does it still kind of fallow the
same way? I don't know. I do think it's important to note that
it was more than injuries too. I mean, he he got suspended after
multiple tests for marijuana usage, which his bullshit, but that's another topic for
another time. And then more more seriously, he also ended up checking into
a program at a hospital to be treated for anxiety, depression and mood disorders.
You know, it's it's unfortunate that that happens everybody, anybody. I
think he's done a really good job talking about that and helping to destigmatize it,
and may the right decision for his personal well being to not pursue a
return to basketball until he got his mental health in better shape. His career
could have been very different without that, But I think it's less important than
him getting his life on the right track too. That is unequivally correct,
and he I think this is actually it's somewhat topical because he said that he
wants to come back to the NBA semi recently. It was like a week
ago he told DMZ that he would like to come back to the NBA.
So I'm just if you're right, I think the injuries played, I guess
a huge part of what was happening on the court, but there's obviously things
off the court, and he glad he took care of himself first and foremost.
And then yeah there's the marijuana thing, which is just absolutely ludicrous.
So but I'm just curious if we're not, you know, if the injuries
never hit, is there anything that's different about this? You know, naturally
the anxiety probably wouldn't go away, but it does. He becomes sort of
this on court like billboard for someone who destigmatizes it a lot, in the
way that Kevin Love and Demarda Rosen that he was never going to reach those
pinnacles, it is to me at least somewhat interesting to consider. Unfortunately,
I just don't think that he would have. We saw how quickly just dominant
defensive presences like Roy Hibbett got marginalized and the changing NBA, and I think
it would be really tough for a guy with such a limited skill set to
really thrive in anything more than a very limited minutes role, and I think
that's bad. Like I'm largely in favor of the stylistic changes that the NBA
has undergone over the last decade or so, the propagation of three point heavy
offenses, which even though they result in like fairly homogeneous shot selection, those
shots are generated in such different ways that there is still nuanced to each offense
and it is still enjoyable to watch different styles even if they're producing fairly similar
results. But that trend has effectively eliminated guys like Larry Sanders, guys like
Chris Anderson, those high flying shot blocking specialists, and I think the NBA
was better with those players in it, And it's just it's it's a shame
to me that it's harder to find a home with that role now. Yeah,
yeah, that that totally makes sense. And it's been such a stark
shift with it that it's it hasn't been it hasn't been as gradual as the
three point revolution, and so that's I think why it it seems like it's
had such an impact on the way centers of you in general, because it's
not like this, you know, the surge of BAKA, like archetype where
you wanted this floor spacing rim protector like that was kind of like to get
there where he was still an anomaly a few years ago and now that's almost
just like the standard. It just felt like there wasn't this natural transition towards
it. I don't know whether that's good or bad. I tend to think
that the game has never been better than it has right now. But I
totally get your point where it's kind of a shame where you see, you
know, good players de valued or sort of schemed out of the league in
certain cases. Look at Clint Capella, he was treated as the inferior player
to Robert Covington in that trade, that fourteen trade that involved the Rockets.
They give a first round pick in that deal. So that's not a shot
at Robert Covington, who's fantastic, but it's you know, two years ago.
Is that where you're talking about Clint Coppell on a first round pick for
Robert Covington. I don't. I don't think so. No, definitely odd,
And I don't think those are mutually exclusive points either. Like we can
bemoan the the the inability for players in every role to have a place in
the league while also enjoying those stylistic shifts. Sports are coming back, and
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some players who have been able to make those transitions more, more seamless,
more seamlessly. I'm struggling with that word and more with more impact and more
seamlessly than this transition that you're making. It was a good segue that was
very poorly executed. But yeah, so we're moving on to Brook Lopez at
number seven, or at least I'm attempting to. He checked in at number
five the fans. He was number eight for me. He was number seven
for you. But he does kind of embody the transition that centers have been
asked to make, even if not all of them are capable of making the
leap quite like he has. I mean, he went the first almost ten
years of his career without really serving as any sort of three point shooter,
and then all of a sudden, with the Brooklyn Nets at the very end
of his tenure, and then with the Lakers, and especially with the Bucks,
he's turned into this floor spacing five. But more than that, he
went from maybe a defensive liability because of his lack of mobility and inability to
contribute on the glass early in his career to a guy who I think is
a very legitimate choice for Defensive Player of the Year this season. Right.
And what's interesting, too, is that part of what's made him special is
to have made this transition and to not even be among the best three point
shooters at his position this season, specifically, he struggled among one hundred and
twenty six players who have attempted at least one hundred triples with a defender six
or more feet away, so wide open threes, he's twenty nine point two
percent clip ranks one hundred and twenty four, so they're only two players shooting
a lower clip on those shots. But because he's able to do other things
on offense, his passing has improved ever since he started under Kenny Atkinson in
Brooklyn. At regime helped him make quicker decisions. He could still really torch
people in the post. In Milwaukee, we've seen him really pump into drives
more and take people off the dribble. He's not super fast, but he's
just so big and nimble that it works. That all helps, and then
he is just incredibly important on the defensive end, Like he said, he
probably belongs in the discussion. I don't know if for defensive Player of the
Year, but certainly for an all defense team, which is almost the same
thing because there's only two center spots up for grabs in those So I admire
that. And it's funny because he was viewed as this liability on defense early
on in his career, and I don't know if people just didn't watch him
enough at that time. Maybe it was to do had to do with all
those foot injuries that he suffered because he very clearly wasn't this good defensively for
a lot of his time with the Nets. And that's just not even close.
That's just a fact. But he's such a strong rim protector now and
he's for someone his size, I wouldn't say he's matchup proof, but he's
he's pretty damn close. And it's not because he's quick, but he just
knows how to use space his length and he just gets in. He's like
really low stances that makes you look like he's trying to perfect his squat form
or something, so and it all just works out. He is an incredibly
useful player, and it's it's my melting or that he was in a position
where he was playing for such for the Biannual exception, I think it was
last year before we got this big contract. It was you go from the
Lakers, from the Nets to the Lakers, and you kind of have that
his stock change so quickly, which is sort of a harbinger of what we
were just talking about. Where the center positions, it's so susceptible to these
reflexive opinions where we can see values just we see them mostly plummet but they're
certainly more turbulent than they've been in years past, and his ability to kind
of withstand that is admirable. I don't think that brook Lopez is the best
defender on the Milwaukee Bucks. I think that title has to belong to Jannis.
I think you can make a convincing case that he's the most important defender
on Milwaukee. Jannis does more. He's able to flit around between every possible
matchup on the court and positively impact the proceedings regardless of who he's defending.
I'm not sure that that degree of switchability of playing free safety essentially within the
half court set is possible without brook Lopez serving as that back line defender.
I think I agree with you, But there's also a conversation that we had
about whether because brook Lopez is so good, does he hold the Bucks back
a little bit from exploring more. Yannis at the five combinations, which may
in fact be the best version of themselves at some point. They've gone to
it more this year than they ever had before, but it's still I think
it's sub five hundred possessions for the season, and I do think those lineups
end up being important in the playoffs. But because Lopez is so good,
are you less inclined to go towards the right Nothing to do with his individual
value. I guess just a thought exercise from me. But who do we
have at number sin, I'll go ahead a number six. Well, I
was gonna say, I think that we also just have to give Lopez a
shout out for not just the stylistic evolution, but the evolution mentally with the
role that he's taken on. I mean, he went from being a consistent
twenty point per night threat with the Nets, who was an all offense everything
we're gonna just eat up those touches in the post and from the elbows,
to a guy who's only averaging eleven points per game and might be having the
best season of his career. And it's exceedingly rare to have a player,
regardless of the position at which they operate, to take on that kind of
transition while still in their prime. Yeah, that makes death, makes total
sense. But anyway, number six, we have Malcolm Brogden, who was
number seven for the fans. I would have expected him to be higher number
six for me, and you had him all the way up at number four.
Yeah, he was that was things got a little bit murky for me
after I went with my top three, and I didn't know, do you
put him above Brandon Jennings, you put him above ver Son Iliasova? I
really didn't know. But he was part of some of the best Bucks teams
we've seen in recent memory, and there was just a plugin playinis to his
impact where it was he could be a game manager when you gave him the
ball, but he gave you this a ton of positional range on the defensive
end, was a knockdown shooter for the looks that he was taking while he
was in Milwaukee. And he could also do you know, get by some
guys his drives and he finished in transition, I think more often than people
realize it. So just this really rock solid presence through his entire time in
Milwaukee. And hey, we're talking about a co Rookie of the Year here,
so and maybe I'm getting a little whimsical for him because of his draft
status, you know, to see how important he became to some of the
best versions of the Bucks, knowing he went thirty six overall. But maybe
that's skewing sort of my vision there too, But it's I think the best
way to frame is I viewed him, even though the Bucks have been spectacular,
I viewed him as a pretty big loss when he went to Indiana in
free agency, and so that also kind of upped him in my rankings by
default as well. His career arc has already been so fascinating. If you
look back at the Rookie of the Year voting from the twenty sixteen seventeen season
that he wanted in the top five, we had a high between Willie hern
and Gomez and Jamal Murray, and then Buddy Healed, who shot below only
forty two point six percent from the field that season, then Joel Embiide who
played thirty one games, then Dario Sharitch, and then Bragdon was the winner
that season. And it's like there was so much negative reaction to him winning
Rookie of the Year just because as good as he was and as valuable as
he was and as fun as he was to watch it also it just it
felt like a very much a down year for Rookie of the Year voting,
and it's almost like he took that personally and then it's just like, I'm
gonna get better in every single area now and developed into one of the most
efficient, smart shooters in the league. Just a guy that's never going to
force the game but manages to have it come to him in so many different
ways. The plug and playness, as you mentioned at the top, an
ability to handle the ball, to play off the ball, to work as
a cutter, to work as a spot up shooter. Just there is no
role that rocked and isn't going to thrive in. And that's it was important
to the Bucks, it is important to the Pacers, and he's just continued
to not just validate that Rookie of the Year but improve on it. I'm
with you in lockstep with you on there too, And like you said,
the trajectory is unique and interesting just because he you felt like his Rookie of
the Year. I was saying that Morezo and Jess. It was sort of
this underwhelming co victory that season, and yet when you look at what he
developed into by his third year in Milwaukee, he was a fringe All Star
and he was just scoring more than you thought. All of it came within
the flow of the offense basically, which is not something you normally say of
a guard. So just I probably maybe I'm clearly higher on him than most.
Maybe it's too high, considering there are players who spent a lot longer
in Milwaukee than he did. But I stand by my number four drop for
him. It's a valid spot. And as you said, this was a
murky section of the rankings. It was. It was difficult to differ entiate
between all of these players that were about to talk about, including number five,
which is Arison Iliosova, who was number six for the fans. I
had him up at number four. You also had him at number six like
the fans, another guy who didn't provide big, glamorous scoring numbers. His
time with the Bucks was interrupted by a two season stint in Spain, but
he still checks the Birness box better than most. He's third minutes played for
the decade, one of only three players who hit five figures in minutes,
and he was just this consistent effort guy. I feel like when you talk
about Iliosova, you have to talk about the charge taking, because he might
be one of the best ever in that facet of the game. It's a
limited facet, but it is a facet nonetheless, And I'm going to back
that up actually because in February twenty nineteen, I did a big Twitter thread
about Iliosova's charge taking and what a ridiculous outlier it was. At that point,
he had ninety five charges over the past three over the past three seasons,
Kyle Lowry was second with sixty nine, then Kemba Walker was sixty eight.
And if if you look at Z scores for the charges that he took
per game and compare it to scoring, that would be the equivalent of someone
averaging forty four point nine points per game in terms of Z scores, which
I just I thought was fascinating and helps like put into perspective just how far
ahead of the pack he was in that area. That is not random but
fun. That is wild. That is absolutely wild. So he's he's an
interesting player, and he's he has two different stints with the Milwaukee Bucks during
this decade now as well. And so there's the floor spacing thirty seven point
seven percent from three during his time with Milwaukee. As you said, there's
there's the charge taking. He's someone that I think, at least in previous
years, could have been a little bit or was a little bit better at
creating his own shot. Not something that you're necessarily going to ask him to
do a ton anymore. He can give you a mismatch at center two maybe
with completely torching your defense. I know it works with this year's Milwaukee Bucks
team, but it's it's really this team is such a special team, and
I almost feel like it's unfair to identify that as the standard, but they're
in the ninetieth percentile of defensive efficiency when he plays at the five. And
so just a very useful sort of glue guy. And I think we even
saw, you know, he was a big part of the reason Philly mid
season a few years ago, like sort of had just that just built up
its stock where it didn't feel suddenly, but was just a big part of
them becoming such a staple in the postseason. So Iliasova again, just that
rock solid glue guy. And I'm stumbling through this because I'm dealing with an
influx of emails and text messages because Patrick Mahomes just signed a ten year extension
with the or ten year deal with the Chiefs, which is that's a very
long deal. But that caught my attention while I was going through this,
So I apologized to everyone, but Iliasova, I think is kind of like
right where he belongs, and there's definitely a variness factor there for him as
well too. He is and I was also surprised kind of see that he
was third in windshares through this team, which I think has a lot to
do with a vairness actor for him as well. Do you think it's fair
to say that Ilyasova is one of the most underrated three and D guys?
Ever, it depends on how much value is defense, I think yeah.
I mean, he never had the flexibility on defense. He was never much
of a rim protector. But there's value in the scrappers and the guys who
are going to take charges so well and who are going to sacrifice their body
and die for the loose balls and be rough and tumble from start to finish
whenever he's on the court. I don't think he was like a lockdown defender
or anything. But I feel like the three and D definition kind of gets
warped a lot and applies to people who aren't necessarily good defenders but shoot a
lot of threes or vice versa, Like they're great defenders, but they're awful
shooters, and we just kind of want to pigeonhole them into that, but
we don't necessarily extend the definition to include guys who are just average at both,
and he's been averaged at both for a long long time. Yeah,
I mean, that's probably a fair way to look at it. I don't
saying he's one of the most under a three D players of all time,
though it feels like it might take it a touch too far, but perhaps
I'm not valuing his defensive utility nearly enough to not be a consistent net negative
or detriment is a pretty big deal when we're talking about floor spacing bigs.
It is. But you know who was an obvious negative on the defensive end.
Who's that? It's our number four player, Brandon Jennings. He was.
He was number three for the fans, he was number five for both
of us, and he was number one to Brandon Jennings. He entered the
league shooting, and he exited the league shooting, and he did a whole
lot of shooting in between. It did not consistently make the Bucks a better
team. Quite the opposite, in fact, but he put up a whole
lot of big numbers. Look, and there's something to just be said that
on any given night, he could just drop all the points in the history
of the fifty five spot as a rookie, which granted is outside our time
frame, but deserves to be talked about. Nonetheless, And look his numbers
with through the three seasons he spent with the Bucks, seventeen point six points,
five point seven assists, one point six steals. Never a good defender,
but opportunistic there with his gambles, and he shot almost thirty five percent
from three not not the worst, not the worst splits in the world,
only shooting forty three point three percent on twos on this perpetual heat check.
Even when he wasn't hot, there was definitely at points of destructiveness to his
game, it felt like, but he was Look, if you can score
that much in the NBA, and even on what are you gonna say,
suboptimal efficiency like there was being very generous, but yes, there's there's a
there was a place for that. And imagine him if he hadn't been basically
the face of the team for so long, or if he had been just
a guy who came off the bench as a sixth man. That seems like
the role that he was never really at the height of his powers. That
seems like the role for which he was best suited, and obviously he was
just never able to take on that role. You know, I have not
done nearly enough research to validate this statement, but I'm gonna go out on
a limb and say that Brandon Jennings might be the worst player ever who has
scored thirty or more points in seven different seasons. I mean, can you
run that by me one more times? So he scored at least thirty points,
like his season high exceeded thirty in seven different seasons. I mean,
it's possible, and that's also like kind of impressive, is but it's like,
I don't know how many people have done that. First of all,
I don't think there's really an easy way to search for that on Basketball Reference
or anywhere else. But I can't imagine that that many guys have done it,
especially especially in a career that only lasted nine seasons. He probably is
still in the NBA if he never suffers that achilles injury, right, are
we in agreement about that? Sure? So he was also kind of fun.
I was just gonna because he didn't really know what was gonna happen whenever
he had the ball, and he was always like kind of like skipping up
the court. It felt like as if he was on the playground. And
so I respect that level of This is a pro Bread and Jennings podcast.
I want to make that very clear, and if Adam doesn't agree, he
can show he's free to see himself out. I mean, I'm not I'm
not trying to insult him, like as you said, like, the ability
to score thirty plus points in seven different seasons is remarkable in and of itself.
I'm just I'm saying that it's probably an exclusive group. I don't currently
have a way of of objectively determining how exclusive a group it is, but
I would imagine he's on the back end of that. It's like when we
say, like, okay, there are like twelve players averaging twenty five plus
points and he has the lowest true shooting percentage of those twelve, Like,
kudos to you for being in the club, but we're also going to pick
on the negative here. Yeah, no, total, I was just just
messing around. But Brandon Jennings fun to watch, not the most effective player.
That might be then probably not so fun to watch if you were emotionally
invested in the Bucks at all at points, but still, yeah, yeah,
I think that's fair. I'm going to I'm gonna try to do the
research and we can check back in on a future episode and see if Brandon
Jennings truly is the worst player to score thirty or more points in seven seasons.
That might need to be a podcast series onto itself. We can make
that happen. Who do we have at number three? At number three,
we have a far more valuable player. I think we kind of entered more
of a more of consensus territory in the top three, at least for you
and I, where we were in lockstep. Although the fans did have Brandon
Jennings above Eric Bledsoe, who checks in at number three, he was number
four for the fans, He was number three for both of us. He
felt like a lock for that third spot to me, where even if he
hasn't spent that much time with the Bucks only six minutes, played one slot
below Brandon Jennings. He's been so grips He's been so good and so valuable
on both ends until the playoffs roll around. Look, he's an All NBA
defender and the past two postseasons have not been pretty by any stretch, but
he's shooting. He has an effective heel goal percentage above sixty three in isolation
this year, which is the best mark in the league among any player who
has attempted more than fifty shots in isolation. And so maybe he's more playoff
proof now, which kind of makes his top three case air tight. But
when you look at what he can do defensively, even just his birth to
the basket, it's a big deal. And so the more inexcusable playoff folly
from him is getting out played by Terry Rozier in twenty eighteen. Last year,
I thought he was fine defensively. There's just there's an element of solvability
to the Bucks and I don't want to pin it on Jannis, but just
in general, when you look at how there, I'm gonna say there was,
because I don't think there is any more. But it's I think it's
open for discussion to me also, so I don't want to pin it entirely
on him. A lot of it, I feel like has to do with
the way Johannis hastened to Google plays and now that he's more comfortable taking fadeaways
and pull up jumpers. Jannis has doubled his pull up jumper attempt from three
this year compared to last year, and I think that helps out Brandon Jenning.
It's not just the efficiency, it's wow, Eric bletso it could help
out Brandon Jennings too, but whatever, So that helps out bletso to me,
I think he ends up being better in the playoffs this year. And
yeah, even if he doesn't, I don't think his top three spot is
in jeopardy just relatives to the competition. But it also feels like he just
he can't move into the top two no matter what he does in the playoffs
this year. No, no, Chris Middleton's lander here. I almost put
Middleton one. I didn't, but you did. You definitely did try to
make a point give Chris Middleton. Though. It's funny that the top three
is going to be the quickest to go through because we're talking about known commodities
that had that have like zero arguments against their position. Like if you don't
have Jannis at one, spoilers or Middleton at too, I don't really know
what you're doing, but but carry on, can I can I tease an
article that you're doing for Billy to report. Is that allowed? U?
Sure? Yeah, so you know you were. You were talking to me
about this article you're working on about the biggest flaws in the resume of the
top players in the league, and Middleton's included as as he should be.
I mean, the guy's averaging twenty one point one points and is literally two
made shots away from a fifty forty ninety season. What the hell is his
flaw? Like? What has he done that's worthy of criticism at any point
during his NBA career? He's developed into this fantastic scorer who can operate off
the ball, who can create from scratch, who who thrives from these outdated
mid range long two zones and makes them work for himself while not sacrifice saying
three point volume in efficiency. A guy who consistently takes on tough defensive assignments
and holds his own there, A guy who overcame injuries in college and being
the thirty ninth overall pick in twenty twelve and being given up on far too
soon by the Detroit Pistons to become an absolute star with the Bucks, a
very legitimate second fiddle on a championship caliber team, Like what do you criticize.
I think it's that he just doesn't fit within the neat context of a
traditional number two. And I do think now more so than ever, that's
really out the window when you've seen some of his playoff performances. Look,
last year, he kind of created when the rest of the Bucks offense created.
But over the past two seasons, the offense has been good when he
plays without Janni's Attenta Kompo, and that's a big deal, and he seems
to check every box. I think this year it's definitely circumstantial because you know,
Kevin Durant, Stephen Curry, those are injured guys, Kyrie Irving,
Karli Anthy Towns, Joel and bad Paul George. None of those players really
appeared enough games, or any games at all. But all of a sudden,
Chris Milton might have been a top ten player in the NBA this season.
I'm talking about just this season, but not even been. He's certainly
he's going to make an All NBA team. He should be third team All
NBA. I think that ends up being him and Jason Tatum. So there's
he just doesn't have a ton of hole in his games. I do think
it's fair to question whether he has the it factor of if you want to
call him an actual top ten player or a top fifteen player because his game,
I think the biggest criticism might be it kind of stalls out before he
gets to the rim. And I think that's where a lot of the oh,
he's not a traditional number two stuff come from comes from, as you
exacerbate one of the one of the few flaws in his game. And there's
a chance that he is, if not a probability that he is a cut
above what you would say is a normal star, but he's he's an All
star at this point. I don't know if people are just viewing him disfavorably
because of the contract that he's on. Still, Chris Middleton is one of
my favorite players in the NBA, and I think he's one of the most
effective ones. And he's the type of guy where I feel like he straddles
that line between I will go out and get you buckets out of nothing,
but I will also fit within any offensive model you tell me too. And
even when he was kind of there was a push and pull between him and
Coach Bud with his shot selection where I want you to take more threes,
but then he relents in this season, he's taking more mid range jumpers.
He was still just he had that universality to his game, and so I
don't think he definitely isn't going to be challenged for number two in this discussion,
But the conversation we're having right now is a larger one, and it's
one that, assuming the Bucks stayed together, depending on what happens in the
postseason this year, it continues. And I do think though, that we're
past the point where we can just say that he's not a viable number two
on a championship team, because I absolutely think that he is. You know,
I know you're hesitant to toot your own horn, but you were high
on Chris Middleton a lot longer than most, and I feel like you were
one of the first people that saw something special in him. You know what
it was is that I knew because the Detroit Pistons didn't give him a long
enough look, that he would end up being good. That's totally fair.
Thebas Spenser did what he reread, that must have been what it was.
And look, when you throw out thousands of terrible tapes, you're bound to
get one or two. Right, also fair, So are you are you
saying that you know Andre Drammond is going to develop into like a four time
MVP. Now it's possible. That's very need to Detroit. Still so speaking
of four time MVPs though, that's my segue into a future four time MVP.
Jannisana Dakumbo, who was the very obvious number one for this franchise.
He was unanimously number one in the composite rankings. He appeared in the number
one spot on all but two fan ballots. I'm going to assume both of
those were troll ballots because one had JJ Reddick in first place and Jannis in
second. The other I'm going to read in full because it's fantastic. It
has Brandon Jennings in the number one spot, followed by Larry Sanders, Arison
Iliosova, Andrew Bogit, Michael read Monte Ellis, Nate Walters, John Henson,
Earl Boykins, and Jannis in the ten spot. I do appreciate that
Jannis has done so much for this franchise that even the troll ballot can't leave
him off entirely. That's a bigger compliment than it consents. His number one
finish. I agree. I agree one thing. You know, he's so
obviously the number one that I feel like we can talk about the weird things
like that. I was caught a little by surprise that he's actually number one
minutes played for the decade for this franchise, just given that he entered the
NBA in twenty thirteen as an unproven commodity, a guy who only played twenty
four point six minutes per game as a rookie and took a couple of years
to develop into a full fledged star. It just I didn't know who I
expected to be number one. I don't think, but I just I didn't
feel like it was going to be honest until I ran that search. It's
kind of like the perception of it. I thought Brendan Jennings played more minutes
than he did for the Bucks this decade, and you just undervalue what what
Yann has played, because look, my memory of him is barely playing in
his first season. I didn't realize though, that he's still actually average almost
twenty five minutes game, right. I feel like the only thing I remember
from that rookie season is him just going toe to toe with Carmelo Anthony just
like that one game against the Knicks in Madison Square Garden where he was like,
I want the challenge. I'm gonna lock up mellow. Yeah, that's
like his rookie season is such a blur. But I definitely when I went
back and looked at his stats page, I didn't see that he I didn't
think he played in seventy seven games. I definitely didn't think the average almost
twenty five minutes per game in those contests. He also just still felt like
a novelty. Then. This is because he's so clearly the number one over
under on the number of MVPs Jannis Tenta Goobo wins. He has two.
Let's get that he has two. Let's set it at four point five.
I'm gonna go over it. I think I think if you want to play
the hot take horn here, feel free. But I think that Jannis is
going to go down as one of the five best basketball players ever. Oh
wow, that is the hot take, hor And we need to sound that
if you have one sounded right now out five best basketball players ever. All
right, Look, he needs to there's still that stain of the twenty nineteen
Eastern Conference Finals. And I'm not saying he's still the best player in the
league to me, But he has to there's going to have to be like
more of an element of winning for him to get there, Like there has
to be like he can't. He has to be like the right kind of
matchup proof, Like we can't be talking about how there's always a round or
a series of games where oh the sound think he's already getting there, though,
I mean it might be the issue. The issue last year was that
you could wall off on defense and force him to play from the outside.
If you could prevent him from getting to the rim and finishing around the basket,
you to some extent at least solved him. But he's spent this entire
series or this entire season in the workshop working on the counters to that,
and how many times have we seen him hit that little turnaround mini jumper.
That shot alone changes everything, right, It opens a ton of things up.
So I think he gets there. It's just they're gonna top five all
time. It's just such a I think he's fully capable of getting there for
some reason. I just can envision it, because maybe we're too early into
his peak right now. But it's tough for me, I don't think we're
at his peak. That's the thing I've wanted. I don't think we're there
yet. That would be obviously if you're gonna think he's top five all time,
So four point five MVPs, though it's tough for me to go over
just because Lebron only has four, and maybe Jannis will. His timing will
just be more convenient of his peak, where there's not really a ton of
other narratives that play as heavily is what he's doing. But as we've seen
in years past, voter fatigue is real, So I would be inclined to
go towards the under just based off that fact. I think he'll be worthy
of five MVPs or more absolutely, how about can I qualify my choice of
the over and say that I think he's gonna get five if he stays in
Milwaukee, and I think it'll be under if he doesn't. Similar to how
when Lebron left for the Miami Heat in twenty ten, he should have been
the MVP in twenty t eleven, but no one wanted to vote for him
because he'd become the villain in the league. Right, And if if Jannis
goes to Miami or to Toronto or somehow is traded to Golden State or something,
and then that something similar is going to happen. But if he stays
in Milwaukee, I feel like he's one of those universally beloved players, right
and even if he even if it's not the villain thing, if he does
leave, and this is not us picking on the Yanna situation, it's just
true of when superstars leaving general, it's probably because he's playing with another superstar
two and they in turn usually dilute each other's candidacy. But no one's going
to vote for Chris Middleton for MVP, so he's safe there. Yeah,
that's a that's totally aweso fair. There will be people that will vote for
him for All NBA this year, even though, as I kind of mentioned,
with some of the players who have been injured and not played in enough
games, they'll still be pushedback for including him an All NBA thirteam. I
feel like, right, So, okay, so I'm gonna I want to
follow up on the on the all time ranking thing, because when I say
that he's going to be top five all time, that means that he's in
that's category. As Michael Jordan, Lebron, James Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Trey
Young, and then janis, so where are you going to have him all
time? Was not prepared to answer this question. I didn't give you a
trivia question this episode, so I feel like it's fair. I'll say top
fifteen pretty comfortably if he continues, you know, barring anything catastrophic, I
think top fifteen, i'd say comfortable with you. I think he has the
chance to be top five all time, I absolutely do. If he's look,
he might be someone probably talking myself into just year take. He might
be someone who just wins Defensive Player of the Year in MVP multiple times in
the same season, so forget about it even happening once. I guess voter
fatigue could kick in there as well, so it all needs to be considered,
it wouldn't it. I don't think it's absurd to say that he could
be a top five player of all time. There's just still so much left
of his career. I don't remember talking about any player in those terms this
early, except for maybe Lebron. I mean, so his numbers this year,
right, twenty nine point six points, thirteen point seven rebounds, five
point eight assists, a steal in a block per game while only playing thirty
point nine minutes per game. Because the Bucks are so far and away the
most dominant team in the league that it's similar to Stephen Curry in his peak
seasons, where he just didn't need to play the second half of the fourth
quarter. He was able to rest for those maintenance purposes. If he stagnated
from here on out throughout his athletic prime. If he played at this level
for the next four or five seasons, we're already talking about a guy who's
a candidate to be one of the ten best ever and he's going to get
so much better as he continues to develop. I mean, this is a
guy who didn't pick up a basketball until later in his childhood than we typically
see from guys who are playing in the NBA. It's he's shooting thirty point
six percent from three point range on four point eight attempts per game, and
that's been market improvement, and yet it still feels like he can do so
much more. It's just I don't know how often you get a guy who
is playing at this level while only scratching at the surface. I guess I'm
just questioning how much room he has to grow when he's already twenty five and
there's really only one part left of his game to improve, and that would
be his jumper. And if he's already comfortable taking jumpers off the dribble,
if you start hitting those at league average clips, we're probably talking about like
in its over player, what is the conversation then? So I see the
tug of four there where I'm like, well, how much better is he
going to get at this point? But it's really he's kind of already doing
the thing you want him to get better at. It's possible he gets more
efficient, and if he does, then it's just over. I was not
prepared to have this discussion on today's pod, but I totally understand where you're
coming from. I think it's always important with these discussions to acknowledge too that
so much has to go right for those predictions to be validated. Like he
has to not only stay healthy, but has to surround him with the right
pieces. Seasons can't be canceled because of a pandemic, which is a very
real consideration right now, and beyond that, he has to stay motivated and
continue to have that drive throughout his career that is difficult to maintain at a
level like someone like Lebron James seventeen years in has still displayed. Yea.
It's it's similar to like when we watched Zion Williamson for these nineteen games that
have taken place so far in his rookie season, or even when we watched
him coming into the league, it didn't feel like that scorching a take to
say like, hey, here's a guy who feels like he could be in
that greatest of all time conversation. A whole hell of a lot has to
go right for that to actually happen. But just the ability to reasonably say
that that possibility exists is so rare in and of itself, And I think
it's telling for Jannis that that that feels so valid already. All that's fair,
And I think if if he keeps up what he's doing, I think
he's guaranteed entry into the top ten of all time. And so by extension,
that doesn't make your top five stand seem that absurd. I just you
know what it is. We haven't started having this discussion about Yannis yet.
Collectively in the agrement or anything, and so that's probably why it's so tough
to wrap the head around. But I don't think what you're saying is it's
definitely worth the hot take, horn, but it's it's actually not, you
know, stupid on top of your other take. I didn't want it.
I didn't know what the word. It's not a reach. So it's not
as much as a reach as it seems right now, is what I would
say. Hm. But yeah, I mean acknowledging that so much has to
happen right for it to become a possibility. You want anyway? Do you
want to take us through? Yeah, that's it's clearly honest. Do you
want to take us through some of the best honorable mentions? I would love
to. So. Outside the top ten on the fan Allott, we had
Jabari Parker at number eleven, Brandon Knight at number twelve, John Henson at
number thirteen, Michael Read one of my all time favorite players at fourteen,
Greg Monroe at fifteen, George Hill at sixteen, JJ Reddick at seventeen,
a three way tie between Mike Dunlevy, Corey mcgetti and Tobias Harris at eighteen.
Dante di Vincenzo at twenty one, Zaza Pachulia at twenty two. Nate
Walters and Oj Mayo and unlikely pairing are tied at twenty third. Tony Snell,
Jared Dudley, Lucamba Mute and Earl Boykins are tied for twenty fifth,
and then a four way tie for twenty ninth between Pat Connaughton, Thon Maker,
Harrison Iliosova, and the one and only Michael Carter Williams. Oh,
Michael Carter Williams made honorable mention. Congratulations to him. Anybody another another rookie
of the year who might have been a little questionable Bulls played for the Bucks
though too. They were Yeah, that was a thing there. Yeah,
that'll do it for us. This was This was an interesting one. It
was a tough one to pass through. And then Adam threw a curve well
that we did not discuss before recording this podcast. So we hope that you
enjoyed the abnormal amount of off the cuffness here. We will be on to
the Minnesota Timberwolves next time we record one of these podcasts. Please again remember
rate, review and subscribe to us wherever you're consuming these episodes until next time,
we leave you with a shout out too Milwaukee Bucks legend John Sammons.
This is Brandon Kelly, the host of Bluewire's new podcast, Golden Goals.
Thanks everybody else, from Leonel Messi to Marta to Pelee. Our show takes
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