1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:03,799 What's up, y'all is Drew Sky and I've teamed up with Mountain Dew to 2 00:00:03,839 --> 00:00:08,080 produce a hilarious new basketball podcast called The due Zone with Drewski. Learn the 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,759 backstories of your favorite balls and celebrities like Jamal Murray. Did you have like 4 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:14,640 a favorite team? Was it the Raptors at the time or no? Was 5 00:00:14,679 --> 00:00:17,039 the Raptors even started around the topic? Come on, bro, I had 6 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:21,519 that tell you like I'm Vifty, Taylor Rogues, Asian Wilson and anymore. 7 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:24,480 You won't want to miss this. Listen to The Due Zone with Drewski on 8 00:00:24,559 --> 00:00:42,840 Apple, Podcast, Spotify, and wherever you listen to podcasts. Hey, 9 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:46,560 Hi, Hello, Hardwoodknocks listeners. I am Dan for Valley, coming out 10 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:52,119 you this time without my co host Andrew d Valley. Welcome to another episode 11 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:56,399 of the Hardwoodknocks podcast. Everybody, We're going to the kickoff a series here 12 00:00:57,119 --> 00:01:02,640 where I and we welcome on Frammel. He is the founder and editor in 13 00:01:02,719 --> 00:01:07,400 chief of MBA Math. He's also an editor for Bleacher Report. Follow him 14 00:01:07,439 --> 00:01:12,040 on Twitter at Frammel zero nine. That's from Al zero nine. We're starting 15 00:01:12,359 --> 00:01:18,079 in historical series where we're going to rank our top ten players. For every 16 00:01:18,159 --> 00:01:23,000 team of this past decade. These pods will be shorter than our normal length 17 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:27,120 pods. They won't include a long exploratory intro like we're having now. They 18 00:01:27,159 --> 00:01:32,000 will be either our second episode of the week or our third episode of the 19 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:34,319 week. Sometimes we'll drop two in the same week, if not more. 20 00:01:34,599 --> 00:01:38,560 If there tends to be a time crunage with the season coming back, that 21 00:01:38,599 --> 00:01:42,000 will be overwhelming, but it's what we're both hoping for because we're ready for 22 00:01:42,079 --> 00:01:46,079 some basketball as all this is going on. This will never be the only 23 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:48,920 podcast though. You still get your national coverage, but we ask that you 24 00:01:48,959 --> 00:01:52,840 continue downloading, listening to every episode, provide us with feedback. We'll maybe 25 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:57,640 be working out some functional awards as we go through this. We are going 26 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:01,560 to begin with the Atlanta Hawks. Before we get started, let's let's not 27 00:02:01,599 --> 00:02:05,959 be rude, and let's ask Adam, how are you doing. I'm doing 28 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:07,400 all right. I just wanted to add one thing to your intro, and 29 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:12,639 that's to make sure that you are participating in these Google forms that we're sending 30 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:15,800 out via the NBA Math Twitter account that gives you a chance to make your 31 00:02:15,879 --> 00:02:21,319 voice heard in these historical conversations we had a pretty good number of responses for 32 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:24,639 the Hawks. I would imagine it's only going to go up as we continue 33 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:29,840 to do this series. So yeah, get those votes in at NBA Underscore 34 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:32,599 Math, follow us on Twitter, and those will be thrown out. So 35 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:37,520 before we get to this and we'll go through, you have some wou'd end 36 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:39,400 up being honorable mentions from the fan vote at the end, and we're going 37 00:02:39,479 --> 00:02:44,080 to go ten through one. We have seen each other's list, but they 38 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:47,439 are not identical lists. We didn't come to just this collective agreement. The 39 00:02:47,479 --> 00:02:51,639 way I went about this, and then we'll see if Adam's methodology was the 40 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:54,879 same was I looked at what a player did while he was with the Atlanta 41 00:02:54,879 --> 00:02:59,840 Hawks, so going forward, what he has already done or did for his 42 00:03:00,039 --> 00:03:02,439 team. But then for current players. I did also try to include a 43 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:07,680 level of projection, where in this case, maybe I have Trey Young higher 44 00:03:07,719 --> 00:03:10,159 than some people would even though he's only played two seasons with Atlanta, because 45 00:03:10,199 --> 00:03:14,680 I think he's going to end up being fantastic, obviously, and so that's 46 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:16,879 kind of how I tried to wait it. And I was also looking at 47 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:21,800 time spent with the organization for past players, you know, Jamal Crawford for 48 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,039 example, spoiler and make my top ten because he only qualified for one of 49 00:03:25,039 --> 00:03:30,759 the seasons. We're looking at twenty two eleven through this year hopefully this year's 50 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:34,319 not done, but again through this year so far. And that's just how 51 00:03:34,479 --> 00:03:37,400 I went about it, and so I'm curious if you took a similar approach, 52 00:03:37,759 --> 00:03:42,280 measured anything differently. Yeah, it was slightly different. I didn't do 53 00:03:42,319 --> 00:03:46,560 as much projecting with the current players. I tried to focus solely on twenty 54 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:50,840 ten eleven through where we left off in this twenty nineteen twenty season, and 55 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:53,759 like you said that that is hard for some of these players. I think 56 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:58,000 Joe Johnson is a great example, where we remember him as being so important 57 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,560 to this franchise for such a long time, only two of his seasons actually 58 00:04:00,599 --> 00:04:04,439 qualified in this time frame before he was traded off to the Brooklyn Nets. 59 00:04:05,039 --> 00:04:09,159 So it's a it's a little tricky with guys like that, or with guys 60 00:04:09,159 --> 00:04:12,439 like Trey Young, as you mentioned, two are so obviously on the rise 61 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:17,160 and going to continue to do big things in Atlanta. So there's there's definitely 62 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:21,959 some level of subjectivity here and just trying to remember how much time each player 63 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:26,959 spent. So basically what you're saying is Kevin Hurder would have been in your 64 00:04:26,959 --> 00:04:30,199 top five if you put in some projection. Oh absolutely all right, and 65 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,759 same same for Cam Radish and DeAndre Hunter and all the young guys because they're 66 00:04:33,759 --> 00:04:39,120 all obviously going to be great and validate the Luca Donchez trade. Right well, 67 00:04:39,519 --> 00:04:46,639 moving on, so I'll throw it to you first as the Hardwood Knox 68 00:04:46,759 --> 00:04:49,160 og, but also a guest at this point, who did you have as 69 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:55,399 your tenth best Hawks player of the decade? So I had Demari Carroll in 70 00:04:55,439 --> 00:05:00,199 that number ten spot. He didn't spend too long in Atlanta during this time 71 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,439 time period or really in general. He was only there from twenty thirteen fourteen 72 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:06,600 through twenty fourteen fifteen, so just the two seasons. But he was kind 73 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:13,120 of like that that quintessential three and D guy for those more competitive Hawks teams 74 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:16,800 that really spaced everything out, really relied a lot on three point shooting under 75 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:23,480 Mike Budenholtzer. And even though he didn't really put up big numbers or have 76 00:05:23,639 --> 00:05:28,759 many like really big highlight plays and kind of faded into the background for a 77 00:05:28,759 --> 00:05:30,120 lot of his time, here he was. He was pretty important to those 78 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:36,319 teams. My number ten was Josh Smith, and you have pointed out that 79 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:41,560 you think that that's way too low for Josh Smith. I think I actually 80 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,959 see that argument as I was sort of going through mine in my head while 81 00:05:44,959 --> 00:05:47,879 you were talking for Jay's move. He spent you know, he's seventh on 82 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:53,120 the Hawks in total minutes played this decade. Was there for three seasons in 83 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:58,959 our decade window, and I think at the time it was sort of just 84 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:00,800 like, yes, he was mad ending, but his game was just also 85 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,720 so versatile. You always wish that he maybe took and hit more threes, 86 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,360 or maybe it didn't because he missed. No, we definitely wished he took 87 00:06:09,399 --> 00:06:13,360 fewer. But he was someone who could hit the defensive glass. He was 88 00:06:13,399 --> 00:06:17,079 a pretty good passer. He gave you a lot of defensive portability. I 89 00:06:17,079 --> 00:06:19,879 don't think you know, when you look at you'd probably call him like a 90 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:25,639 combo wing at this point, borderline big and just someone of his size with 91 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:29,079 the block rates and the steel rates that he put up. He was maddening 92 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:31,920 because he was just so damn talented and it never seemed like he he fully 93 00:06:32,199 --> 00:06:35,439 put it together. It always felt like if he was just a little bit 94 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:40,839 better on offense or more efficient as a scorer overall, maybe we're talking about 95 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:45,519 someone who not only did the Hawks maybe keep for longer, but who's still 96 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:49,120 in the NBA perhaps, And so maybe maybe I'm being skewed by that, 97 00:06:49,199 --> 00:06:53,920 the fact that he's been out of the NBA for a while. But he 98 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:58,720 was one of the most frustratingly versatile players I've ever watched to play basketball. 99 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:01,120 I think that's a great way of putting it. Yeah, I have him 100 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:05,560 a little higher in my rankings. I do want to just add right now 101 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:09,680 that I it's slightly outside of our time frame, but I wish we could 102 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:13,360 see two thousand and nine, two ten Josh Smith in today's NBA. That 103 00:07:13,519 --> 00:07:15,759 that was the season. He averaged fifteen point seven points, eight point seven 104 00:07:15,839 --> 00:07:18,879 rebounds, four point two assists, one point six steals, and two point 105 00:07:18,959 --> 00:07:25,439 one blocks. He took like, I think seven threes the entire season, 106 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:29,560 which definitely wouldn't fly into in today's NBA. But he played the right way 107 00:07:29,639 --> 00:07:32,920 that season, and he was just everywhere on defense, and it's it's easy 108 00:07:32,959 --> 00:07:38,240 to imagine him now like that, that prime version on a team like the 109 00:07:38,319 --> 00:07:43,639 Rockets where he could play some center and just wreaking havoc and switching everywhere, 110 00:07:44,319 --> 00:07:46,000 And I kind of I kind of wonder if, like the end of his 111 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:51,000 career, like just the disaster that was the Detroit Pistons tenure and the very 112 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:55,439 forgettable time that he spent with the Los Angeles Clippers and Houston Rockets, and 113 00:07:55,759 --> 00:07:58,959 today I remember that he even played for the New Orleans Pelicans, which I 114 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:03,680 did not remember today, But like, I think all of the the Houston 115 00:08:03,759 --> 00:08:07,199 Rocket season in that playoff series in twenty fifteen too, right, he had 116 00:08:07,279 --> 00:08:09,959 that one big game. But yeah, I think like all all that, 117 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:13,560 like the down swing at the end of his career, has maybe made us 118 00:08:13,639 --> 00:08:16,839 forget just how good he was during his best days with the Hawks. It 119 00:08:16,879 --> 00:08:22,399 was also probably a matter of I don't think teams valued what he did as 120 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:24,160 much as they do now when he was doing it, So it was it 121 00:08:24,199 --> 00:08:28,759 was sort of like maybe the Hawks didn't really know like how to best deploy 122 00:08:28,839 --> 00:08:31,240 him, But I also don't think Josh Smith knew how to best deploy himself. 123 00:08:31,399 --> 00:08:35,120 Just some of the shots he took were awful, so many totally valid, 124 00:08:35,279 --> 00:08:39,679 so many long twos, throughout his career and just never buried them at 125 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:41,799 even a clip that made you think, oh, okay, like you could 126 00:08:41,799 --> 00:08:46,159 shoot those that that's fine. So yeah, I think it was sort of 127 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:48,320 a given tape that was. Yeah, maybe today's NBA might be better equipped 128 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:50,919 to handle Josh Smith, but I'm not sure that Josh Smith was ever fully 129 00:08:50,919 --> 00:08:56,440 equipped to handle Josh Smith. I can't disagree with that, not at all. 130 00:08:56,679 --> 00:09:00,399 Yeah, I did well. I didn't want to go over the community 131 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:05,360 response to so number ten from our our fan input vote was Demari Carroll, 132 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:11,879 so I feel validated by that, and also just to go over the list 133 00:09:11,919 --> 00:09:16,000 of players who did get votes, whether first place votes or tenth place votes, 134 00:09:16,039 --> 00:09:18,919 but did not register in the top ten of the fan vote. We 135 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:24,039 have Marvin Williams and Kent Baysmore tied at eleventh. We have Jamal Crawford at 136 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:30,279 thirteenth, Zaza Patuli at fourteenth, Vin Vince Carter at fifteenth, Kirk Heinrich 137 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:35,759 at sixteenth, Jerry Stackhouse at seventeenth, an interesting tie between Mike Scott and 138 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:41,879 Willie Green, who somehow managed to get a ninth place vote at eighteenth. 139 00:09:41,879 --> 00:09:45,879 Man Tabo Cephalosha is also tied with those two and then tied for last place. 140 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:50,000 Among those who got any votes at all are Tracy McGrady, Kevin Herder, 141 00:09:50,039 --> 00:09:52,320 and Pero on Tich, which is a group of three names. I 142 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:56,360 never thought I would say in the same sentence. I guess if you were 143 00:09:56,399 --> 00:10:00,679 just saying Ken who was the best player ever to put on a Fox jersey 144 00:10:00,759 --> 00:10:03,159 this decade, then you can start talking about Vince Carter and Trace McGrady, 145 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:05,960 not what they did for the team. I thought you were going to say 146 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:09,039 Paro there, yes, but just relative to their career. Otherwise, I 147 00:10:09,039 --> 00:10:13,120 don't understand Tracy McGrady Orvin's Carter getting any votes unless you, just, in 148 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:18,000 Vince Carter's case, really value his off court mentorship. I'm actually really surprised 149 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:20,799 that Ivan Johnson didn't get a single vote. I thought that as much of 150 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:24,120 a fan favorite as he was, because he was just a ridiculous human being, 151 00:10:24,519 --> 00:10:31,000 that he would have registered somewhere. Yeah. I mean I totally forgot 152 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:33,960 about him until you just mentioned him, so, but now you won't forget 153 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:37,240 about him for a while. Well, he's actually gonna be bumped up into 154 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:41,600 my top five now that you actually said something. Oh perfect, March sadness 155 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:45,600 is rolling on and on and on, or w Knox listeners, we know 156 00:10:45,759 --> 00:10:48,480 this has been the longest decade of our lives, and it's it's somehow only 157 00:10:48,519 --> 00:10:52,799 March bizarre, right, But you don't have to indulge in March sadness all 158 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:56,840 the time thanks to bet online dot ag. 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It continues to be on the rise. 165 00:11:22,639 --> 00:11:24,480 If you're into entertainment, you can still bet on American Idol, the 166 00:11:24,519 --> 00:11:28,440 Elections, the Spelling Bee, and even the Nathan's Hot Dog Eating contest. 167 00:11:28,759 --> 00:11:33,720 Be sure to use promo code blue wire all one word to receive your fifty 168 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:37,200 percent welcome bonus on your first deposit. Again, that's promo code blue wire 169 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:41,559 all one word. You will receive a fifty percent welcome illness by using it 170 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:48,000 bet online your new ticket online action? Who do you have at number nine? 171 00:11:48,639 --> 00:11:52,679 A number nine? I have Kent Baysmore, and I actually I really 172 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:56,039 struggled with how to rank him and to Mary Carroll, just because I think 173 00:11:56,039 --> 00:12:01,639 they had pretty similar contributions. Baysmore was much more of a transition threat, 174 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:07,000 probably not quite as reliable or at least street year as a shooter, but 175 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:11,080 they both kind of exemplified that three and D role that was so important to 176 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:16,440 those space it out five out Hawks offenses. So can I make a last 177 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:18,480 minute swot because we actually weren't in lockstep here. But the more I'm thinking 178 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:22,279 about it with who I have at nine, I want to be a little 179 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:26,000 bit bolder with him because I think that he's absolutely good. So I'm going 180 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,480 with Kent Baysmore at number nine as well. And I do still feel like 181 00:12:28,519 --> 00:12:35,080 people most associate him with the Warriors because of sort of the sideline cheer leading 182 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:37,120 then and all those geod at it videos and gifts we got from him, 183 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:41,679 But his career was made in Los Angeles with the Lakers and then with the 184 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:46,120 Hawks. The one thing I always found interesting with him, I feel like 185 00:12:46,159 --> 00:12:50,000 he was always overrated defensively and then underrated offensively. His last year in Atlanta 186 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:56,159 wasn't great, but he provided more secondary ball handling than I think that people 187 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,919 really ever realized, and so that was just something I always found interesting with 188 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:01,600 because a lot of people were like, he's this three in d guy, 189 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:07,200 Like he never really shot the highest percentage from three, and his defense was 190 00:13:07,279 --> 00:13:09,919 like, yeah, I mean, if he could defend true twos, he 191 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:13,639 was fine, a little over extended. If you put him on actual wings, 192 00:13:13,879 --> 00:13:16,399 maybe he could handle some point guards. And so I always kind of 193 00:13:16,399 --> 00:13:20,559 thought that there was this mistaken perception of what he actually did best, if 194 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:24,600 that makes any sense. No, I think that's totally fair, and it's 195 00:13:24,639 --> 00:13:28,679 probably the area he grew in most in Atlanta was his facilitating. He came 196 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:33,480 in there not really having handled the ball whatsoever during his time with the Lakers 197 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:35,919 and the Warriors, and I guess he did with the Lakers a little bit 198 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:39,559 because they had like all their point guards injured during the brief time he was 199 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:45,759 there, But yeah, they the Hawks really brought more of that distributing ability 200 00:13:45,799 --> 00:13:48,240 out of him, and he developed into a pretty solid secondary hub by the 201 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:54,080 end of his career. Also the fan well, the fan vote at number 202 00:13:54,159 --> 00:13:58,039 nine two, I guess I should probably say those as I unveil my picks 203 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:03,080 as well. Is Dennis Shrewder, who was interesting because neither of us have 204 00:14:03,279 --> 00:14:07,200 him in our top ten. I'm not sure he was ever good for the 205 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:11,360 Hawks, at least like he was or is with the Thunder right now. 206 00:14:11,519 --> 00:14:18,320 Just you know, the the inefficiencies and the inability to do anything on defense 207 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:22,919 just held him back throughout his time in Atlanta. I thought I would I 208 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:26,200 would be with you there too, And maybe it's just harder because he spent 209 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:30,120 so much time as a backup two and for perhaps that's sort of tainted in 210 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:31,960 a way. But he didn't even I had a harder time leaving, and 211 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,080 it wasn't especially hard, but I had a harder time leaving Marvin Williams off 212 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:39,000 than I did finish the same for me to sort of con sexualize, how 213 00:14:39,799 --> 00:14:43,080 that might have sounded like sexualize, I meant to say contextualize how I was 214 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:48,399 thinking. So I'm surprised that in the fan vote he finished that high. 215 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:52,720 Yeah, I'm right with you. I think his game was more glamorous just 216 00:14:52,759 --> 00:14:56,679 because of the speed he created more highlights and probably seemed more important to those 217 00:14:56,679 --> 00:15:01,200 teams than he actually was. So that's that's my best shot in an explanation 218 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,440 there. That's fair. And maybe he's the guy where it's like we should 219 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:07,440 be either surprised that he made the list at all, or that he wasn't 220 00:15:07,519 --> 00:15:09,000 higher. That should have been his variants. He should be number five or 221 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,000 not on the list at all, none of this. Yeah, no, 222 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:16,159 I totally agree with you. Who do you have at number eight? We're 223 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:20,519 up to So at number eight, I have Joe Johnson, which was a 224 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,039 really tough one to place, just because he was He's one of the better 225 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:28,480 players in Atlanta's franchise history, but only two of his seasons counted for this 226 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:33,000 before he was traded to the Nets. So he actually did make an All 227 00:15:33,039 --> 00:15:37,320 Star team in both of those seasons, but it almost seemed more like a 228 00:15:37,399 --> 00:15:41,600 legacy selection than anything else. You know, his three point shot fell off 229 00:15:41,639 --> 00:15:45,679 in the first of those two seasons. It rebounded in the second, but 230 00:15:46,039 --> 00:15:52,279 he wasn't really he wasn't really impacting the winning cause quite as much, and 231 00:15:52,399 --> 00:15:54,639 I think he kind of took a secondary more of a secondary role during those 232 00:15:54,639 --> 00:16:00,840 seasons and then also the fan vote here has John Collins, and he was 233 00:16:00,879 --> 00:16:06,919 an interesting one. The consensus had him in the bottom half of the rankings, 234 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:11,679 but he did actually get some votes for higher placement as well. So 235 00:16:11,159 --> 00:16:15,200 I had him number eight, and he was initially my number nine. I 236 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,080 bumped him up. The reason I don't have him higher and I just want 237 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,919 to this is how good that John Collins is. But just particularly on offense. 238 00:16:22,039 --> 00:16:26,840 And so the players over the past two seasons who are averaging at least 239 00:16:26,879 --> 00:16:30,759 twenty points, ten rebounds and one made three pointer for thirty six minutes while 240 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:34,480 hitting them at the same clip or better as John Collins, which is thirty 241 00:16:34,519 --> 00:16:41,639 seven point four percent is Karl Anthony Towns and Christian Wood waited by mostly this 242 00:16:41,679 --> 00:16:45,399 season and he only appeared in eighty games, So that company he's in is 243 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,480 pretty incredible. The reason I don't have him higher and I actually think he's 244 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:52,399 been a little bit more viable defensively at the four this year, where a 245 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:56,480 lot of people are worried about his fit with Clint Capella. Moving forward offensively, 246 00:16:56,519 --> 00:17:00,120 it's going to be fine. He's shooting like a zillion percent from three 247 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:03,519 since the middle of December or January. Defensively, I sort of get it, 248 00:17:03,559 --> 00:17:07,279 but I do think he's been a little bit better at before this season. 249 00:17:07,599 --> 00:17:11,440 The reason I don't have him higher is I'm just not sure how much 250 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:15,000 longer he's going to be on the Hawks, because maybe defensively, I could 251 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,920 see where there are problems with him and Capella on the floor. Maybe Atlanta 252 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:21,799 doesn't want to max him out with his extension and so they move him at 253 00:17:21,839 --> 00:17:25,599 next year's trade deadline or just let him leave in restricted free agency or something. 254 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:29,319 I think the louder outcome is far less unlikely. If you told me 255 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,200 that the Hawks are willing to pay him though, that they're going to extend 256 00:17:32,279 --> 00:17:34,759 him or they're going to resign him and restricted free agency, I'd probably vault 257 00:17:34,839 --> 00:17:40,039 him up another spot or two. It's a good segue because I have John 258 00:17:40,079 --> 00:17:45,480 Collins at my number seven spot. Yeah. I mean, it's tough because 259 00:17:45,519 --> 00:17:49,599 so much of what he's done has come during a dry spell for this organization 260 00:17:49,599 --> 00:17:55,039 where they just haven't really been able to win games. But it's also easy 261 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:59,799 to see just how much he's improved already in these two and a half seasons. 262 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:06,519 I think it's partially because the Hawks kind of treated his role without much 263 00:18:06,559 --> 00:18:10,599 clarity at the beginning. He kind of bounced between playing the five and playing 264 00:18:10,599 --> 00:18:14,000 the four and tried to develop skills in both of those roles, and they 265 00:18:14,039 --> 00:18:18,000 really started to come together a little bit more during this season, aside from 266 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:19,319 when he was suspended, of course. And you look at like his three 267 00:18:19,319 --> 00:18:22,920 point shooting. Where at Wake Forest in two years he took one three pointer 268 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:26,279 and missed it, And this year he's taking three point six per game and 269 00:18:26,319 --> 00:18:30,839 making forty point one percent of them, which is an amazing development for a 270 00:18:30,839 --> 00:18:34,519 guy who's really become a stretch big and is only going to increase his value 271 00:18:34,559 --> 00:18:37,400 because of that. Yeah, I mean, you just look at the number 272 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:41,400 three pointers he's taken over the last I mean, you look at his NBA 273 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,960 career. He's won thirty of three fifty two from deep for his career thirty 274 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,759 six point nine percent more than solid. Particularly, like you said, he 275 00:18:47,759 --> 00:18:52,640 wasn't shooting threes really at a way Forrest, but just the last two seasons 276 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:56,880 he's like, he's over three hundred attempts just in those two seasons. He 277 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,079 would have been on pace to probably take two hundred plus this year had the 278 00:19:00,079 --> 00:19:03,880 regular season been finished, so he's come a long way. Offensively, he's 279 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,880 even a little bit more comfortable doing some stuff with the ball in his hands, 280 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:11,079 and there are very few guys I think that are both pick and pop 281 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:14,119 and pick and roll where you could trust him as the rim runner. But 282 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:18,960 also now he's that threat from outside the arc, and that's what makes him 283 00:19:18,079 --> 00:19:22,119 that's what I think is going to make the fit with Clint Capella offensively so 284 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:26,480 easy. He's almost become underrated in that sense. Offensively, to me, 285 00:19:26,599 --> 00:19:30,680 I understand the defensive qualms, though, I think we'd be talking about him 286 00:19:30,759 --> 00:19:33,119 as an All Star right now had he not been suspended at the beginning of 287 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:36,799 this season. I mean, looking at the Eastern Conference, I don't I 288 00:19:36,839 --> 00:19:40,880 don't think he could doubt that one bit. Yeah, and then, just 289 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:45,359 as the record keeping, the number seven for the fan vote was Josh Smith, 290 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,359 who we've already talked about, and I'll turn it over to you for 291 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:53,799 your seventh I have demor Carol, And like you said at the top of 292 00:19:53,839 --> 00:19:59,359 this, he didn't spend so much time with the Hawks during this period, 293 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:03,440 and maybe I'm sort of just romanticizing that Hawks team from twenty fifteen where they 294 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:06,920 were all just named player of the month, and I know that they were 295 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:11,279 steam rolled eventually in the playoffs that year, but he what he did defensively 296 00:20:11,559 --> 00:20:15,599 for them, it was a lot like he was in charge of defending the 297 00:20:15,599 --> 00:20:18,920 toughest assignments, perimeter assignments, basically night in and night out. And the 298 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:22,759 Hawks were for that one season a sixty win team and he was such a 299 00:20:22,839 --> 00:20:26,880 huge part of that. He came to at that time typify the three and 300 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:32,319 D specialty. He was also not to the extent that Kemp pays More was, 301 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:36,000 but he could sort of make these simple passes well he had the ball 302 00:20:36,039 --> 00:20:38,240 in his hands, and so not someone that you would ever lean to fully 303 00:20:38,279 --> 00:20:41,160 to have that roll, but to people to make those quick second passes. 304 00:20:42,039 --> 00:20:47,240 I think people underestimate how valuable he was on both ends of the floor to 305 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:49,160 that Atlanta team. You could, again, if you told me that John 306 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,640 Collins was going to be on the Hawks past next year, I'd put him 307 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:57,079 above Demari Carroll in a heartbeat. But he just again I might be romanticizing 308 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:03,319 those Hawks teams that had Horford Millsap Corver, Jamari Carolon Jeft. He's just 309 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:07,759 he stands out to me during this period than a lot of more so than 310 00:21:07,799 --> 00:21:11,160 a lot of other players. I think he might deserve some more credit that 311 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:15,640 I'm giving him to just because of the willingness to sacrifice for the betterment of 312 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,039 that team. Now, these were some of his prime years, Like he 313 00:21:18,079 --> 00:21:23,000 easily could have wanted to post bigger box score numbers and take more shots, 314 00:21:23,039 --> 00:21:29,720 and he never seemed anything but content filling that role. That kind of went 315 00:21:29,839 --> 00:21:33,279 under under the radar for the most part. Sort of that what if is 316 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:37,079 if he never because he was basically having knee problems before he left Atlanta, 317 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:38,680 and so if he never has those knee problems and they sort of derailed his 318 00:21:38,759 --> 00:21:44,640 career in general, I wonder if maybe he stays in Atlanta passed that perhaps 319 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:47,759 they were never going to give him the contract that Toronto did at the time. 320 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:51,359 That's still just that's just one of the better what ifs. But again, 321 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,839 the defensive workload that he shouldered was through the roof during his time there. 322 00:21:56,839 --> 00:22:00,799 Moving on to who do you have? Four? Number six? Number 323 00:22:00,839 --> 00:22:04,440 six? I have Josh Smith. I wavered a lot between whether I wanted 324 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:11,000 him or John Collins to be higher. It's it's tough with with smooth, 325 00:22:11,079 --> 00:22:15,359 just because it's hard to remember, like exactly what he did after as we 326 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:22,400 talked about after the end of his his NBA career, and he never really 327 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:27,799 seemed to fully maximize what his on court abilities were. I'm actually more intrigued 328 00:22:27,839 --> 00:22:33,319 by the fans selection of Kyle Corver at number six. I know we both 329 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:41,240 have him yet to come in ours, but it's he's definitely a fascinating player 330 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:45,720 in the last decade for Atlanta, just because he was such a specialist. 331 00:22:45,759 --> 00:22:49,680 But he was so impactful as a specialist and had so many memorable moments between 332 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:56,119 the three point streak and the dunks that he threw down in transition during that 333 00:22:56,519 --> 00:23:02,640 that magical sixty win season. Yeah, I mean I'm with you there, 334 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:07,119 My who the fan vote at Kyle Korver a number six? I actually feel 335 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:10,000 like that's almost low. Yeah, yeah, I mean we both have him 336 00:23:10,039 --> 00:23:12,920 at number five. Not to spoil anything, my number six. I was 337 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:18,480 tempted to drag down below both Carol and again Collins was so tough for me. 338 00:23:18,559 --> 00:23:21,680 I just wanted to keep moving him up. I have Joe Johnson only 339 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:25,359 two seasons with Atlanta fall under this window. The reason I have him bumped 340 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:27,720 up, and there's a I would possibly put him higher if I felt like 341 00:23:27,759 --> 00:23:33,920 he had the trademark Atlanta Hawks moment at least during this time, and he 342 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:37,640 doesn't. But he's the aside from Trey Young, when you look at this 343 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:41,960 list, he's the closest thing they have to a primary score during this time. 344 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:48,680 And so his twenty eleven two twelve season specifically, he was just a 345 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,680 monster Offensively. Wasn't his highest scoring season, but he shot thirty eight point 346 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:56,759 eight percent from three on five point four attempts per game, and there was 347 00:23:56,799 --> 00:24:02,039 this level of consistency to him people. You know, people joke about Isojoe, 348 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:04,480 but someone would go out there and at least competently get from scratch buckets. 349 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,839 To me, almost have to respect that. And you know, over 350 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:14,640 these two years, affective field goal percentage below fifty, I totally get it. 351 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,279 But through these two seasons over eighteen points a game, more than four 352 00:24:18,279 --> 00:24:22,640 assists per game, and just having that dependable source of offense and someone who's 353 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:27,039 gonna draw some of the tougher d defensive assignments against him, not him covering 354 00:24:27,079 --> 00:24:32,000 them, and still be able to be that source of offense. It's it's 355 00:24:32,079 --> 00:24:34,000 huge to me in retrospect. I almost kind of wish I put him below 356 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:38,480 John Collins, but we've already talked about my my moral dilemma there with with 357 00:24:38,559 --> 00:24:44,839 John, Right, Yeah, I think the versatility and the from a scratch 358 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:49,319 creation are just such big points in Isojoe's favor. He during these during these 359 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:53,759 last couple of seasons in Atlanta, he was creating around like sixty percent of 360 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:57,799 his buckets without using an assist, which is really important from a wing player, 361 00:24:59,079 --> 00:25:03,119 especially because he was capable of attacking from the post or you know, 362 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:08,000 working from the elbows or taking threes, and that ability to draw constant attention 363 00:25:08,039 --> 00:25:11,880 from a primary defender on the other team was a really big deal. There's 364 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:17,279 there's no doubt about that. Still, he's going to be the one that 365 00:25:17,279 --> 00:25:21,240 I feel like, insofar as people listen to this that might think that probably 366 00:25:21,279 --> 00:25:23,680 the most overrated one. You had him at nine, I had him at 367 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,240 eight eight, so just because he only spent two seasons there, so I 368 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:32,279 would totally understand so hard because of the two seasons. Yeah, you already 369 00:25:32,319 --> 00:25:34,240 spoiled number five for the two of us, But take it away with with 370 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:40,400 Kyle Korver, yeah. I mean it's it's all about those three point shots, 371 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:45,680 right, I mean, just he was that that constant spot up threat. 372 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:49,960 I think the play I associate most with him and Atlanta is just curling 373 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,640 off one screen, catching it at the top of the key and just like 374 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,519 leaning in a little bit as he shot. And it was the same form 375 00:25:56,599 --> 00:26:00,440 every time. It always looked good. He made forty five point two percent 376 00:26:00,519 --> 00:26:06,279 of his threes while taking five point five per game in Atlanta over five seasons, 377 00:26:06,319 --> 00:26:12,920 all of which do qualify for this time period, So it's you know, 378 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,440 he was an All Star that one season when the Hawks won sixty games, 379 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:21,960 it felt kind of like a more of an inclusion because the team was 380 00:26:22,039 --> 00:26:26,680 so good than anything he did. It's one of the weirder All Star selections 381 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,039 we've seen in a while. But at the same time, he like he 382 00:26:29,079 --> 00:26:32,240 made forty nine point two percent of his threes that year while taking six per 383 00:26:32,319 --> 00:26:37,200 game like that. As we know in this this fully modernized NBA where everyone 384 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:42,880 is shooting like that, that matters a lot. Can you guess where Kyle 385 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:47,079 Korver ranks during this time period? And minutes played for the Hawks too. 386 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:52,440 I'm not sure that people realize just how extensive his involvement was. I'm gonna 387 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:57,680 guess fourth third, behind only Millsap and Al Horford. I thought Tigue might 388 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:02,799 have been ahead of him too. You are absolutely maybe he was. He 389 00:27:02,839 --> 00:27:06,559 was above Millsapp. Excuse me, Tigue leads the team, Corford and then 390 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,759 Korver. Yeah, we all in the same ballpark. I would imagine. 391 00:27:10,799 --> 00:27:12,319 I did not look that up, so I'm switballing here. I was just 392 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,279 trying to look at sample size, and so it was not that I wasn't 393 00:27:15,319 --> 00:27:19,640 like floored. But when you just when you think about like Kyle Corver being 394 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,599 thirty minutes during this time, or at least being ahead of Paul Millsap there 395 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,640 was was fairly interesting to me. But you just look, I mean, 396 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:30,480 the dude is just a sniper and some of the things. I know, 397 00:27:30,519 --> 00:27:34,039 he wasn't really allowed to dribble, but he could make some some nice passes 398 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,359 at times. And the shots that he's taking from three, you know, 399 00:27:37,559 --> 00:27:41,400 those are not they were not all these easy shots. Just they're so quick 400 00:27:41,799 --> 00:27:48,200 coming around screens, needs like sub zero seconds to get them off. And 401 00:27:48,559 --> 00:27:51,319 when you look at this specific window, there are only four players that hit 402 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:56,079 more threes than him Steph Clay, Harden and Dame. And so that's like 403 00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:02,920 incredible company to be in as a guy who is firmly below those superstars that 404 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,880 are in front of him and just so valuable to those to the best talks 405 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:11,920 teams in recent memory that re remembered opening things up for everybody and being someone 406 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:17,599 that could just bend the defenses as not just the shots he's making, but 407 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:21,960 watching him move off the ball when he was closer to his prime. Just 408 00:28:22,559 --> 00:28:25,880 I feel like it counted as a form of cardio watching Kyle Korver move off 409 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,160 the ball during these years, and he's all about those unique types of cardio 410 00:28:29,279 --> 00:28:32,839 during the offseason training. But I actually don't think we've mentioned what I think 411 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,880 is the most underrated part of his game, and that's his defensive rebounding. 412 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:41,640 He was always really good at reading those cams and he had such strong hands, 413 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:45,559 Like it was amazing watching how many times he would be in the land 414 00:28:45,559 --> 00:28:48,559 of bigs and somehow come down with the ball, like if he got his 415 00:28:48,599 --> 00:28:52,839 hands on it, he was going to get the defensive rebound. Yeah, 416 00:28:52,119 --> 00:28:56,880 definitely an underrated part of his game. I'm looking at his defensive rebounding percentage 417 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,559 during this time, and I would not have expected it to be over twelve. 418 00:29:00,079 --> 00:29:03,880 Yeah, yeah, it's really solid. Who do you have at number 419 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,960 four? Before I do that, I'm gonna tell you that Joe Johnson was 420 00:29:07,039 --> 00:29:11,319 fifth in the fan vote, and he actually had one of the most interesting 421 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,400 voting breakdowns too, because only the top finisher on both of our ballots and 422 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:19,079 the fan vote had more first place votes than him. But he was also 423 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:25,839 left off almost half of the ballots, so there was a really big split 424 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:30,240 between people who thought he was there. Actually the same number of people thought 425 00:29:30,279 --> 00:29:33,640 that he was in the first and second spot as had him off of the 426 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:37,839 top ten entirely. It makes me feel a little bit better about putting him 427 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,680 number six. And the number of times I tried to skip over the fan 428 00:29:40,759 --> 00:29:42,759 results, it's clearly it's clear that I don't care about you people. I'm 429 00:29:42,759 --> 00:29:48,519 a terrible person. Yeah, I think it's it's impressive that you've maintained this 430 00:29:48,599 --> 00:29:52,480 like veil of caring for so long and it's just all being shattered now. 431 00:29:52,519 --> 00:29:56,319 I'm doing everything I can to to involve our Twitter followers and our fans and 432 00:29:56,319 --> 00:30:02,799 our faithful listeners here self quarantine his just it's I've lost the ability to even 433 00:30:02,839 --> 00:30:07,920 fake it anymore. Apparently, who do you have at number four? I 434 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:11,720 have the same person as the fan vote, and that is Trey Young, 435 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:17,839 who was really hard to rank because I think you can make a convincing argument 436 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:22,640 that his current season is the best we've seen from any Hawk during this decade 437 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:29,960 time frame. But it's only his second season. So what are we supposed 438 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,680 to do with him here? Well, look at where he's going. Just 439 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:40,599 the percentage he shoots unassisted threes is through the roof. You have to cover 440 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,240 him, or at least try too as soon as he crosses the timeline. 441 00:30:44,599 --> 00:30:48,119 And what I really think, well, he's a defensive disaster. There's there's 442 00:30:48,119 --> 00:30:52,319 just no other way around that. But a lot of people were worried about, 443 00:30:52,319 --> 00:30:53,519 well, what's he going to do inside the arc? He is. 444 00:30:55,079 --> 00:30:57,079 I've seen takes where they say that he doesn't elevate the play of his teammates. 445 00:30:57,119 --> 00:31:00,839 That's just not true. He's a fantastic passer, totally b s. 446 00:31:00,039 --> 00:31:06,160 Yeah, and he's really done a better job than I would have expected at 447 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:10,680 getting looks in around the rim. His floater game is legitimate, and he 448 00:31:10,759 --> 00:31:15,839 seems to know how and when to get his shots off when he's in traffic 449 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:21,000 and putting them just out of reach of the longer arms that are in front 450 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:25,440 of him, and just someone who keeps the defense in perpetual tilt. And 451 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:27,920 the Hawks run this season about a league average offense when he's on the court, 452 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:33,000 And so that's what people have used as evidence that maybe he didn't deserve 453 00:31:33,039 --> 00:31:34,880 to be an All Star, or he's not as far along as as we 454 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:40,799 think. Perhaps there's some truth to that, but they are terrible when he's 455 00:31:40,839 --> 00:31:44,119 off the court. They just don't have any outlets aside from him, and 456 00:31:44,119 --> 00:31:47,279 I think that makes his job actually harder when he's on the floor, because 457 00:31:47,279 --> 00:31:51,000 you can't do these things that the Warriors have done with Stephen Curry, maybe 458 00:31:51,319 --> 00:31:53,640 to too much extremes in the past, where you can get imagine if Trey 459 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,240 Young got to get running off the ball a little bit. I feel like 460 00:31:56,279 --> 00:32:00,839 that's a part of his game that could that could not only be expanded, 461 00:32:00,839 --> 00:32:02,480 but something that would actually be work and turned into a weapon. And so 462 00:32:02,519 --> 00:32:07,920 if you get him a secondary ball handler rather than senior citizen Jeff te at 463 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:09,920 this point, I feel like those are some things that you could look at, 464 00:32:10,039 --> 00:32:14,680 and so when you look at his trajectory, I do think there's a 465 00:32:14,759 --> 00:32:17,119 chance that he ends up being, let's say, one of the three best 466 00:32:17,119 --> 00:32:21,359 players in Hawk's history. I think that's in actual consideration. I know you 467 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,440 said he'll never pass pett It, there's also a unique that you have to 468 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:29,559 consider. I certainly think that he is at least right now on the course 469 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:34,440 to surpass the Al Horford Paul millsapped here. Yeah, I think that, 470 00:32:34,799 --> 00:32:37,519 assuming health, that three might be the floor. As hard as it is 471 00:32:37,559 --> 00:32:44,599 to get to that number one spot past the two unquestionable legends and franchise history, 472 00:32:44,759 --> 00:32:47,880 but yeah, I mean the trajectory he's on is astronomical right now. 473 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:52,759 And I'm actually not as concerned about his defense as most people seem to be. 474 00:32:52,799 --> 00:32:55,640 Not because he's good at defense, he's not, he's terrible, but 475 00:32:55,720 --> 00:33:02,279 because point guard defense is really hard in today MBA, and the difference between 476 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:07,440 a really good point guard defender and a really bad one isn't necessarily as important 477 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:13,880 as the differences between other positions floors and ceilings there. And you have to 478 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:20,599 remember that Atlanta has done a really bad job putting complimentary defensive talent around him. 479 00:33:20,799 --> 00:33:22,960 You know, if you have a guy who's basically a traffic cone on 480 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:29,039 the defensive end, you should probably have some sort of rim protection waiting behind 481 00:33:29,119 --> 00:33:32,799 him. That isn't John Collins figuring out how to play defense at the NBA 482 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:37,880 level. And it just seems like while this front office has done a good 483 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:45,359 job accruing talent and making sure that there are enough assets during this ongoing rebuild, 484 00:33:45,839 --> 00:33:52,839 it hasn't necessarily put together the right types of players to mitigate Trey's biggest 485 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:58,559 flaw. I think that's changed the perception of both his defense and his overall 486 00:33:58,599 --> 00:34:04,079 game, even though it should be abundantly clear that his offense between the passing 487 00:34:04,119 --> 00:34:07,839 he's probably one of the five best passers in the NBA right now, and 488 00:34:07,159 --> 00:34:13,880 his scoring, which is obviously ridiculous, you know, those so clearly outweigh 489 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:17,719 the defensive warts, right and just the efficiency with which he's doing it above 490 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:22,960 average efficiency in general relative to league averages, and the level of difficulty on 491 00:34:23,039 --> 00:34:27,199 his shots is just absurd. I also kind of think he gets to the 492 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,599 line a little bit more than then people realize as well. So he's just 493 00:34:30,639 --> 00:34:36,199 this offensive force from every imaginable angle he was. He's my number three, 494 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:37,480 actually, so I won't spend too much time on him when we get there. 495 00:34:37,519 --> 00:34:43,559 My number four is actually Jeff Teague always just there. This I feel 496 00:34:43,599 --> 00:34:46,320 like could be maddening, but was also the steadying force and he was never 497 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:51,840 this big time floor general. But he was also an okay creator when he 498 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:53,480 maybe wasn't turning the ball over every five seconds out of the pick and roll, 499 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:57,639 took some ending shots. But on some of those other Hawks teams, 500 00:34:57,639 --> 00:35:00,000 he was valuable because he could play off the ball as well from some of 501 00:35:00,039 --> 00:35:05,000 their other players. I feel like he was could he be compared to, 502 00:35:05,039 --> 00:35:08,599 maybe like in Alex Smith just saying he was a game manager, and that 503 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:14,840 goes really underappreciated. Perhaps Alex Smith had more big play potential than Jeff t 504 00:35:15,079 --> 00:35:19,159 But that's really the sort of vibe that I always got from him. I 505 00:35:19,199 --> 00:35:22,079 did not anticipate having to defend Jeff Teague as much as I'm going to have 506 00:35:22,159 --> 00:35:25,519 to hear. He was my number three. He was the fans number three, 507 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:31,199 So all all three voting parties had Tigue and Trey in some combination at 508 00:35:31,199 --> 00:35:35,400 three and four. But I think he was so much more than just there. 509 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,679 Like, yeah, the bairness and the longevity of his time in Atlanta 510 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:44,159 over this past decade is what ultimately pushed him above Trey who has made that 511 00:35:44,159 --> 00:35:50,320 an official stat for NBA math barness. Yeah, absolutely, but no, 512 00:35:50,559 --> 00:35:53,239 I think Trey obviously is the highest ceiling. He's obviously more impactful on a 513 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:58,599 per game basis. But like, let's not sell primetigue too short. Like 514 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,280 the guy was fourth, I know, but you said he was just there, 515 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:07,519 Like Okay said he was studying presence. That's kind of the same thing 516 00:36:07,559 --> 00:36:13,000 as just there. But like in his in his prime, he's averaging sixteen 517 00:36:13,039 --> 00:36:16,360 points and seven assists with under three turnovers per game. He's keying everything they 518 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:20,920 do on offense with his quickness, Like how many times did he break down 519 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:22,840 defenders and get into the lane and hit a kickout past one of the many 520 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:28,000 shooters around him? Like his his ability to operate off the dribble is what 521 00:36:28,079 --> 00:36:30,840 made those offenses go, and he seemed to always make good decisions, and 522 00:36:31,119 --> 00:36:37,039 those those teams were best when he was hitting his floater, which was inconsistent 523 00:36:37,119 --> 00:36:40,480 at best. He did have some seasons where it just clicked. Everything worked 524 00:36:40,559 --> 00:36:46,039 and you see the results when the Hawks win sixty games, but that that 525 00:36:46,079 --> 00:36:51,400 didn't that didn't last as as long as many Atlanta fans would have liked for 526 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:55,920 it too, And the end of the season right after that one was definitely 527 00:36:57,039 --> 00:37:00,559 a dramatic decrease, even as he kind of put the together more from three 528 00:37:00,599 --> 00:37:07,440 and his latest stint in Atlanta is definitely working to knock down the rankings. 529 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,559 But yeah, I think he was. He was. He was about so 530 00:37:09,639 --> 00:37:15,519 much more than his bairness. I will say Jeff t maybe, let's say 531 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:22,880 twenty thirteen to twenty sixteen, maybe seventeen, Jeff Teque was better defensively dependable 532 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:24,840 there that I think a lot of people were probably would probably give him credit 533 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:28,480 for. So there there's my hat tip to Jeff te since you're claiming I 534 00:37:28,519 --> 00:37:31,079 shit all over him, even though I just compared him to the goat Alex 535 00:37:31,159 --> 00:37:36,760 Smith, who was the fans? Did we already reveal the fans number four? 536 00:37:37,039 --> 00:37:39,559 Yeah? The fans Number four was Trey and number three was Tigue, 537 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:43,400 who I also have a three. So I have I have Trey Young at 538 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:45,119 three. And you've heard my reasoning. Do you have a problem with Trey 539 00:37:45,159 --> 00:37:49,519 being overtigue. That's probably the thing we should ask. I think it just 540 00:37:49,559 --> 00:37:52,519 depends on what you're valuing. And you've made it clear that you're using a 541 00:37:52,519 --> 00:37:58,840 little bit of projection here. And I don't think there's anyone who would say 542 00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:02,440 that that tigue is his better than Trey Young. It's just it's a matter 543 00:38:02,519 --> 00:38:12,679 of how much you value the airness kind of a surprise iPhone call coming in 544 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,639 during this thing we were go live here. It always seems like, look 545 00:38:15,639 --> 00:38:20,079 there it goes again. I continue to get I think he had to take 546 00:38:20,079 --> 00:38:22,719 it on the air. Now. No, I can't do that because it 547 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:24,119 was my father in law. So I don't really know what that's going to 548 00:38:24,199 --> 00:38:30,199 be about. Who did you have for I feel like we're gonna be consensus 549 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,920 now we're consensus of the fans too. In the top two, so number 550 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:36,519 two for both of us. Who did we have? We had Paul millsap 551 00:38:37,079 --> 00:38:42,079 so good, so good, so underrated, so good, just did everything 552 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,400 he could have. I actually didn't double check this. I feel like he 553 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:49,199 should have made and maybe he did him. I'm looking at it right now. 554 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,559 I feel like he definitely should have made an all defensive team during his 555 00:38:52,559 --> 00:38:53,599 time with the Hawks. Did he don't. I don't think he did. 556 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:58,400 He made one made he made one during the sixty one season, or no 557 00:38:58,519 --> 00:39:01,760 during the forty eight and thirty four seas In twenty fifteen sixteen, but he 558 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:06,280 should have made more than that. Yeah he made wow, yeah two? 559 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,239 That was the second team All Defense. I would have thought that he even 560 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:13,079 twenty fifteen, twenty sixty, I feel like maybe he should have been first 561 00:39:13,079 --> 00:39:15,079 team. I have to look at those results there. I feel like I 562 00:39:15,119 --> 00:39:19,960 remember him getting like some fringe love and defensive Player of the Year discussions too. 563 00:39:21,119 --> 00:39:23,039 Am I making that up? No? Certainly, dude, so looking 564 00:39:23,079 --> 00:39:30,679 at guys who cross the threshold of he's a big and so like I. 565 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:34,800 But I put him in that year like he was the same just sort of 566 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:40,880 thinker that Draymond Green was for the Warriors. Probably not as probably not as 567 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:45,159 extensive there, but that's the type of defender that Paul Millsapp was in his 568 00:39:45,159 --> 00:39:50,840 prime where he could defend basically everyone, and so that was a huge part 569 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:54,960 of Atlanta's success during that time. I feel like he's so ingrained into the 570 00:39:55,039 --> 00:39:58,679 success of the Hawks that you look at it and it's almost a little bit 571 00:39:59,079 --> 00:40:01,519 wild. That he was only there what was it four seasons? Only four 572 00:40:01,559 --> 00:40:04,800 seasons? Yeah, it makes you feel like he should have been there a 573 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:07,920 lot longer. But he's the clear cut number two for me, and Trade 574 00:40:07,159 --> 00:40:10,000 will eventually pass him, but as of right now, it's hard to put 575 00:40:10,079 --> 00:40:15,119 him any lower than that. No, I totally agree with you. It's 576 00:40:15,199 --> 00:40:20,639 it's interesting that, like Millsap seems to be one of the most forgettable great 577 00:40:20,679 --> 00:40:25,239 players of this of this decade, probably regardless of which franchise we're talking about, 578 00:40:25,679 --> 00:40:30,119 just because he was so good at everything and I'm not quite sure what 579 00:40:30,159 --> 00:40:37,000 was like truly elite aside from the defensive versatility and his pump fake. All 580 00:40:37,079 --> 00:40:42,960 right, that's fair number one. You want to reveal anything, I mean, 581 00:40:43,039 --> 00:40:45,360 like, is anyone going to be surprised that it's al Horford here? 582 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:51,239 Excuse me? How is it not Mike Scott emoji tattoo king? Yeah, 583 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:55,559 I mean, he had some very memorable transition dunks and threes and emojis, 584 00:40:55,639 --> 00:41:01,679 and that's all I've got on Mike Scott. Alhor forever underrated, maybe not 585 00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:07,760 so much this season, but one of my not my favorite things, but 586 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:10,960 one of the most ridiculous things is how often, particularly during the talent of 587 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,920 his time in Atlanta, that people just wanted to still call him a power 588 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:20,199 forward. And it's like, you know, I never understood that. Even 589 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:22,920 earlier in his career, if you look at the minutes breakdowns, it said 590 00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:24,039 that he logged a lion share of his minutes at the five, but at 591 00:41:24,079 --> 00:41:28,760 least there was more time, you know, especially before Millstap came along, 592 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,400 he had some seasons where they were just larger splits. Al Horford was the 593 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:37,440 center and he was just so good. Just did never did I guess anything 594 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:38,840 you could say at a superstar level, though I do think he came. 595 00:41:39,679 --> 00:41:43,760 He was at that. He was at that level defensively for at least a 596 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,960 few seasons, including both of his years in Boston, or maybe all three 597 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:52,320 of the seasons in Boston, excuse me, but just did everything and did 598 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:55,480 it really well at fringe star levels, let's say, on offense, from 599 00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:59,800 facilitating, from being able to pump, fake and put the ball on the 600 00:42:00,039 --> 00:42:04,000 more for being a pick and pop option at a time when those weren't nearly 601 00:42:04,039 --> 00:42:08,599 as common as they are now. And I never understood just the lack of 602 00:42:08,599 --> 00:42:15,159 appreciation for him. I know it was exacerbated in Boston because just because of 603 00:42:15,639 --> 00:42:21,280 some of his performances and you look at oh, Tristan Thompson absolutely owned him 604 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:23,159 in certain matchups. But and then even the Hawks teams, you know, 605 00:42:23,199 --> 00:42:30,159 them getting steamrolled by the Calves in twenty sixteen playoffs. Is that where they 606 00:42:30,199 --> 00:42:31,000 just they won sixty games and went four. Oh, I think that's the 607 00:42:31,039 --> 00:42:36,039 year was fifteen. Yeah, So that's the fun thing about histories. They 608 00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:37,880 all the years just just melt together. That's how you know they're getting old. 609 00:42:38,079 --> 00:42:45,920 So forever underappreciated in my book, and he might he not might, 610 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:47,800 He's going to go down, I think is just one of the most underrated 611 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:52,039 players in the NBA of all time. Right, So we just we just 612 00:42:52,079 --> 00:42:57,039 said that Paul Millsap is like the one of the most underappreciated, overlooked stars, 613 00:42:57,199 --> 00:43:00,119 And in some ways it feels like Horford is essentially like a rich man's 614 00:43:00,199 --> 00:43:06,280 version of Paul Millsap, which I think is appropriate for the largely forgettable Atlanta 615 00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:10,199 Hawks to have those two guys in their top two spots until Tray surpasses them 616 00:43:10,199 --> 00:43:15,199 both. But yeah, I mean, like I don't really have that much 617 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:20,480 to add on your description of him aside from like, if you have one 618 00:43:20,599 --> 00:43:23,480 image of the non Trey Hawks over the past decade, it's either going to 619 00:43:23,559 --> 00:43:30,119 be a Joe Johnson isolation shot or Al Horford elbow out like fifteen foot elbow 620 00:43:30,159 --> 00:43:36,360 jumper. And also the way he but for a big probably one of the 621 00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,639 best transition defenders among big men, I would think, and more switchable than 622 00:43:39,679 --> 00:43:43,880 people gave him credit for. Two he had those in his prime, at 623 00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:45,800 least he had those. No, that's not a good comparison. He was 624 00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:50,480 just he was never the quickest, but he was just always let's talk about 625 00:43:50,519 --> 00:43:53,559 his defensive fairness. He was just always in the right spot that he needed 626 00:43:53,599 --> 00:43:57,360 to be and where he's able to use his length or put space between guys 627 00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:59,960 to keep smaller players in front of him. And like you said, super 628 00:44:00,039 --> 00:44:02,679 switchable at his peak. Yeah, I think he's another player who gets a 629 00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:07,840 lot of a lot of credit for his thereness. That's an official stat. 630 00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:09,719 Now let's start using it. He's there now. Absolutely. That wraps it 631 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:13,400 up for us here sub forty five minutes. I think that solid. We'll 632 00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:15,679 try and go a little bit quicker in the future. Although we spent forty 633 00:44:15,679 --> 00:44:19,480 five minutes on the Hawk some of these pods in my last a couple hours. 634 00:44:19,559 --> 00:44:24,559 Perhaps Follow Adam on Twitter at FROMO zero nine. Follow MBA Math at 635 00:44:24,639 --> 00:44:30,559 MBA Underscore Math. Follow the Blue Wire Podcast Network at Blue Wire Pods. 636 00:44:30,559 --> 00:44:34,760 Shout out to our sponsor bet Online dot AG as always, they make this 637 00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:37,880 podcast possible, so please use that promo code blue Wire all one word. 638 00:44:38,639 --> 00:44:42,440 You can follow me Randy on Twitter if you please, as well at Andrew 639 00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,840 D. Bailly at dan FA Valley FA V A L E. And please, 640 00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:47,519 I've stopped doing this at the top of the pod to try and expedite 641 00:44:47,519 --> 00:44:51,719 things, but make sure that you continue to rate, review and subscribe to 642 00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:54,320 the podcast on iTunes still the best way to help us out. Make sure 643 00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:58,599 you're downloading every episode. If you've done all those things, refer us, 644 00:44:58,639 --> 00:45:01,679 retweet the promos Twitter, Tell a friend, family member, co worker. 645 00:45:02,159 --> 00:45:06,159 Don't tell random person on the street because you should not be meeting random people 646 00:45:06,199 --> 00:45:09,239 on the street at this time. Hashtag social distancing until next time. No, 647 00:45:09,519 --> 00:45:14,639 I leave everybody with the shout out too. Josh Smooth, Josh smidt, 648 00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:22,119 Jay Smooth, shout out to him, Sugar Ray, Leonard, Roberto 649 00:45:22,199 --> 00:45:27,719 Duran, Marvelous, Marvin Hagler, and Thomas Hearns, legends whose four way 650 00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:31,639 rivalry define one of the greatest errors in boxing history, relive their decade of 651 00:45:31,679 --> 00:45:37,679 dominance in the new Showtime Sports documentary The Kings, a four parts series premiering 652 00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:39,039 Sunday, June sixth, only on Showtime