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Hi, Hello, Hardwoodknocks listeners. I am Dan for Valley, coming out
you this time without my co host Andrew d Valley. Welcome to another episode
of the Hardwoodknocks podcast. Everybody, We're going to the kickoff a series here
where I and we welcome on Frammel. He is the founder and editor in
chief of MBA Math. He's also an editor for Bleacher Report. Follow him
on Twitter at Frammel zero nine. That's from Al zero nine. We're starting
in historical series where we're going to rank our top ten players. For every
team of this past decade. These pods will be shorter than our normal length
pods. They won't include a long exploratory intro like we're having now. They
will be either our second episode of the week or our third episode of the
week. Sometimes we'll drop two in the same week, if not more.
If there tends to be a time crunage with the season coming back, that
will be overwhelming, but it's what we're both hoping for because we're ready for
some basketball as all this is going on. This will never be the only
podcast though. You still get your national coverage, but we ask that you
continue downloading, listening to every episode, provide us with feedback. We'll maybe
be working out some functional awards as we go through this. We are going
to begin with the Atlanta Hawks. Before we get started, let's let's not
be rude, and let's ask Adam, how are you doing. I'm doing
all right. I just wanted to add one thing to your intro, and
that's to make sure that you are participating in these Google forms that we're sending
out via the NBA Math Twitter account that gives you a chance to make your
voice heard in these historical conversations we had a pretty good number of responses for
the Hawks. I would imagine it's only going to go up as we continue
to do this series. So yeah, get those votes in at NBA Underscore
Math, follow us on Twitter, and those will be thrown out. So
before we get to this and we'll go through, you have some wou'd end
up being honorable mentions from the fan vote at the end, and we're going
to go ten through one. We have seen each other's list, but they
are not identical lists. We didn't come to just this collective agreement. The
way I went about this, and then we'll see if Adam's methodology was the
same was I looked at what a player did while he was with the Atlanta
Hawks, so going forward, what he has already done or did for his
team. But then for current players. I did also try to include a
level of projection, where in this case, maybe I have Trey Young higher
than some people would even though he's only played two seasons with Atlanta, because
I think he's going to end up being fantastic, obviously, and so that's
kind of how I tried to wait it. And I was also looking at
time spent with the organization for past players, you know, Jamal Crawford for
example, spoiler and make my top ten because he only qualified for one of
the seasons. We're looking at twenty two eleven through this year hopefully this year's
not done, but again through this year so far. And that's just how
I went about it, and so I'm curious if you took a similar approach,
measured anything differently. Yeah, it was slightly different. I didn't do
as much projecting with the current players. I tried to focus solely on twenty
ten eleven through where we left off in this twenty nineteen twenty season, and
like you said that that is hard for some of these players. I think
Joe Johnson is a great example, where we remember him as being so important
to this franchise for such a long time, only two of his seasons actually
qualified in this time frame before he was traded off to the Brooklyn Nets.
So it's a it's a little tricky with guys like that, or with guys
like Trey Young, as you mentioned, two are so obviously on the rise
and going to continue to do big things in Atlanta. So there's there's definitely
some level of subjectivity here and just trying to remember how much time each player
spent. So basically what you're saying is Kevin Hurder would have been in your
top five if you put in some projection. Oh absolutely all right, and
same same for Cam Radish and DeAndre Hunter and all the young guys because they're
all obviously going to be great and validate the Luca Donchez trade. Right well,
moving on, so I'll throw it to you first as the Hardwood Knox
og, but also a guest at this point, who did you have as
your tenth best Hawks player of the decade? So I had Demari Carroll in
that number ten spot. He didn't spend too long in Atlanta during this time
time period or really in general. He was only there from twenty thirteen fourteen
through twenty fourteen fifteen, so just the two seasons. But he was kind
of like that that quintessential three and D guy for those more competitive Hawks teams
that really spaced everything out, really relied a lot on three point shooting under
Mike Budenholtzer. And even though he didn't really put up big numbers or have
many like really big highlight plays and kind of faded into the background for a
lot of his time, here he was. He was pretty important to those
teams. My number ten was Josh Smith, and you have pointed out that
you think that that's way too low for Josh Smith. I think I actually
see that argument as I was sort of going through mine in my head while
you were talking for Jay's move. He spent you know, he's seventh on
the Hawks in total minutes played this decade. Was there for three seasons in
our decade window, and I think at the time it was sort of just
like, yes, he was mad ending, but his game was just also
so versatile. You always wish that he maybe took and hit more threes,
or maybe it didn't because he missed. No, we definitely wished he took
fewer. But he was someone who could hit the defensive glass. He was
a pretty good passer. He gave you a lot of defensive portability. I
don't think you know, when you look at you'd probably call him like a
combo wing at this point, borderline big and just someone of his size with
the block rates and the steel rates that he put up. He was maddening
because he was just so damn talented and it never seemed like he he fully
put it together. It always felt like if he was just a little bit
better on offense or more efficient as a scorer overall, maybe we're talking about
someone who not only did the Hawks maybe keep for longer, but who's still
in the NBA perhaps, And so maybe maybe I'm being skewed by that,
the fact that he's been out of the NBA for a while. But he
was one of the most frustratingly versatile players I've ever watched to play basketball.
I think that's a great way of putting it. Yeah, I have him
a little higher in my rankings. I do want to just add right now
that I it's slightly outside of our time frame, but I wish we could
see two thousand and nine, two ten Josh Smith in today's NBA. That
that was the season. He averaged fifteen point seven points, eight point seven
rebounds, four point two assists, one point six steals, and two point
one blocks. He took like, I think seven threes the entire season,
which definitely wouldn't fly into in today's NBA. But he played the right way
that season, and he was just everywhere on defense, and it's it's easy
to imagine him now like that, that prime version on a team like the
Rockets where he could play some center and just wreaking havoc and switching everywhere,
And I kind of I kind of wonder if, like the end of his
career, like just the disaster that was the Detroit Pistons tenure and the very
forgettable time that he spent with the Los Angeles Clippers and Houston Rockets, and
today I remember that he even played for the New Orleans Pelicans, which I
did not remember today, But like, I think all of the the Houston
Rocket season in that playoff series in twenty fifteen too, right, he had
that one big game. But yeah, I think like all all that,
like the down swing at the end of his career, has maybe made us
forget just how good he was during his best days with the Hawks. It
was also probably a matter of I don't think teams valued what he did as
much as they do now when he was doing it, So it was it
was sort of like maybe the Hawks didn't really know like how to best deploy
him, But I also don't think Josh Smith knew how to best deploy himself.
Just some of the shots he took were awful, so many totally valid,
so many long twos, throughout his career and just never buried them at
even a clip that made you think, oh, okay, like you could
shoot those that that's fine. So yeah, I think it was sort of
a given tape that was. Yeah, maybe today's NBA might be better equipped
to handle Josh Smith, but I'm not sure that Josh Smith was ever fully
equipped to handle Josh Smith. I can't disagree with that, not at all.
Yeah, I did well. I didn't want to go over the community
response to so number ten from our our fan input vote was Demari Carroll,
so I feel validated by that, and also just to go over the list
of players who did get votes, whether first place votes or tenth place votes,
but did not register in the top ten of the fan vote. We
have Marvin Williams and Kent Baysmore tied at eleventh. We have Jamal Crawford at
thirteenth, Zaza Patuli at fourteenth, Vin Vince Carter at fifteenth, Kirk Heinrich
at sixteenth, Jerry Stackhouse at seventeenth, an interesting tie between Mike Scott and
Willie Green, who somehow managed to get a ninth place vote at eighteenth.
Man Tabo Cephalosha is also tied with those two and then tied for last place.
Among those who got any votes at all are Tracy McGrady, Kevin Herder,
and Pero on Tich, which is a group of three names. I
never thought I would say in the same sentence. I guess if you were
just saying Ken who was the best player ever to put on a Fox jersey
this decade, then you can start talking about Vince Carter and Trace McGrady,
not what they did for the team. I thought you were going to say
Paro there, yes, but just relative to their career. Otherwise, I
don't understand Tracy McGrady Orvin's Carter getting any votes unless you, just, in
Vince Carter's case, really value his off court mentorship. I'm actually really surprised
that Ivan Johnson didn't get a single vote. I thought that as much of
a fan favorite as he was, because he was just a ridiculous human being,
that he would have registered somewhere. Yeah. I mean I totally forgot
about him until you just mentioned him, so, but now you won't forget
about him for a while. Well, he's actually gonna be bumped up into
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A number nine? I have Kent Baysmore, and I actually I really
struggled with how to rank him and to Mary Carroll, just because I think
they had pretty similar contributions. Baysmore was much more of a transition threat,
probably not quite as reliable or at least street year as a shooter, but
they both kind of exemplified that three and D role that was so important to
those space it out five out Hawks offenses. So can I make a last
minute swot because we actually weren't in lockstep here. But the more I'm thinking
about it with who I have at nine, I want to be a little
bit bolder with him because I think that he's absolutely good. So I'm going
with Kent Baysmore at number nine as well. And I do still feel like
people most associate him with the Warriors because of sort of the sideline cheer leading
then and all those geod at it videos and gifts we got from him,
But his career was made in Los Angeles with the Lakers and then with the
Hawks. The one thing I always found interesting with him, I feel like
he was always overrated defensively and then underrated offensively. His last year in Atlanta
wasn't great, but he provided more secondary ball handling than I think that people
really ever realized, and so that was just something I always found interesting with
because a lot of people were like, he's this three in d guy,
Like he never really shot the highest percentage from three, and his defense was
like, yeah, I mean, if he could defend true twos, he
was fine, a little over extended. If you put him on actual wings,
maybe he could handle some point guards. And so I always kind of
thought that there was this mistaken perception of what he actually did best, if
that makes any sense. No, I think that's totally fair, and it's
probably the area he grew in most in Atlanta was his facilitating. He came
in there not really having handled the ball whatsoever during his time with the Lakers
and the Warriors, and I guess he did with the Lakers a little bit
because they had like all their point guards injured during the brief time he was
there, But yeah, they the Hawks really brought more of that distributing ability
out of him, and he developed into a pretty solid secondary hub by the
end of his career. Also the fan well, the fan vote at number
nine two, I guess I should probably say those as I unveil my picks
as well. Is Dennis Shrewder, who was interesting because neither of us have
him in our top ten. I'm not sure he was ever good for the
Hawks, at least like he was or is with the Thunder right now.
Just you know, the the inefficiencies and the inability to do anything on defense
just held him back throughout his time in Atlanta. I thought I would I
would be with you there too, And maybe it's just harder because he spent
so much time as a backup two and for perhaps that's sort of tainted in
a way. But he didn't even I had a harder time leaving, and
it wasn't especially hard, but I had a harder time leaving Marvin Williams off
than I did finish the same for me to sort of con sexualize, how
that might have sounded like sexualize, I meant to say contextualize how I was
thinking. So I'm surprised that in the fan vote he finished that high.
Yeah, I'm right with you. I think his game was more glamorous just
because of the speed he created more highlights and probably seemed more important to those
teams than he actually was. So that's that's my best shot in an explanation
there. That's fair. And maybe he's the guy where it's like we should
be either surprised that he made the list at all, or that he wasn't
higher. That should have been his variants. He should be number five or
not on the list at all, none of this. Yeah, no,
I totally agree with you. Who do you have at number eight? We're
up to So at number eight, I have Joe Johnson, which was a
really tough one to place, just because he was He's one of the better
players in Atlanta's franchise history, but only two of his seasons counted for this
before he was traded to the Nets. So he actually did make an All
Star team in both of those seasons, but it almost seemed more like a
legacy selection than anything else. You know, his three point shot fell off
in the first of those two seasons. It rebounded in the second, but
he wasn't really he wasn't really impacting the winning cause quite as much, and
I think he kind of took a secondary more of a secondary role during those
seasons and then also the fan vote here has John Collins, and he was
an interesting one. The consensus had him in the bottom half of the rankings,
but he did actually get some votes for higher placement as well. So
I had him number eight, and he was initially my number nine. I
bumped him up. The reason I don't have him higher and I just want
to this is how good that John Collins is. But just particularly on offense.
And so the players over the past two seasons who are averaging at least
twenty points, ten rebounds and one made three pointer for thirty six minutes while
hitting them at the same clip or better as John Collins, which is thirty
seven point four percent is Karl Anthony Towns and Christian Wood waited by mostly this
season and he only appeared in eighty games, So that company he's in is
pretty incredible. The reason I don't have him higher and I actually think he's
been a little bit more viable defensively at the four this year, where a
lot of people are worried about his fit with Clint Capella. Moving forward offensively,
it's going to be fine. He's shooting like a zillion percent from three
since the middle of December or January. Defensively, I sort of get it,
but I do think he's been a little bit better at before this season.
The reason I don't have him higher is I'm just not sure how much
longer he's going to be on the Hawks, because maybe defensively, I could
see where there are problems with him and Capella on the floor. Maybe Atlanta
doesn't want to max him out with his extension and so they move him at
next year's trade deadline or just let him leave in restricted free agency or something.
I think the louder outcome is far less unlikely. If you told me
that the Hawks are willing to pay him though, that they're going to extend
him or they're going to resign him and restricted free agency, I'd probably vault
him up another spot or two. It's a good segue because I have John
Collins at my number seven spot. Yeah. I mean, it's tough because
so much of what he's done has come during a dry spell for this organization
where they just haven't really been able to win games. But it's also easy
to see just how much he's improved already in these two and a half seasons.
I think it's partially because the Hawks kind of treated his role without much
clarity at the beginning. He kind of bounced between playing the five and playing
the four and tried to develop skills in both of those roles, and they
really started to come together a little bit more during this season, aside from
when he was suspended, of course. And you look at like his three
point shooting. Where at Wake Forest in two years he took one three pointer
and missed it, And this year he's taking three point six per game and
making forty point one percent of them, which is an amazing development for a
guy who's really become a stretch big and is only going to increase his value
because of that. Yeah, I mean, you just look at the number
three pointers he's taken over the last I mean, you look at his NBA
career. He's won thirty of three fifty two from deep for his career thirty
six point nine percent more than solid. Particularly, like you said, he
wasn't shooting threes really at a way Forrest, but just the last two seasons
he's like, he's over three hundred attempts just in those two seasons. He
would have been on pace to probably take two hundred plus this year had the
regular season been finished, so he's come a long way. Offensively, he's
even a little bit more comfortable doing some stuff with the ball in his hands,
and there are very few guys I think that are both pick and pop
and pick and roll where you could trust him as the rim runner. But
also now he's that threat from outside the arc, and that's what makes him
that's what I think is going to make the fit with Clint Capella offensively so
easy. He's almost become underrated in that sense. Offensively, to me,
I understand the defensive qualms, though, I think we'd be talking about him
as an All Star right now had he not been suspended at the beginning of
this season. I mean, looking at the Eastern Conference, I don't I
don't think he could doubt that one bit. Yeah, and then, just
as the record keeping, the number seven for the fan vote was Josh Smith,
who we've already talked about, and I'll turn it over to you for
your seventh I have demor Carol, And like you said at the top of
this, he didn't spend so much time with the Hawks during this period,
and maybe I'm sort of just romanticizing that Hawks team from twenty fifteen where they
were all just named player of the month, and I know that they were
steam rolled eventually in the playoffs that year, but he what he did defensively
for them, it was a lot like he was in charge of defending the
toughest assignments, perimeter assignments, basically night in and night out. And the
Hawks were for that one season a sixty win team and he was such a
huge part of that. He came to at that time typify the three and
D specialty. He was also not to the extent that Kemp pays More was,
but he could sort of make these simple passes well he had the ball
in his hands, and so not someone that you would ever lean to fully
to have that roll, but to people to make those quick second passes.
I think people underestimate how valuable he was on both ends of the floor to
that Atlanta team. You could, again, if you told me that John
Collins was going to be on the Hawks past next year, I'd put him
above Demari Carroll in a heartbeat. But he just again I might be romanticizing
those Hawks teams that had Horford Millsap Corver, Jamari Carolon Jeft. He's just
he stands out to me during this period than a lot of more so than
a lot of other players. I think he might deserve some more credit that
I'm giving him to just because of the willingness to sacrifice for the betterment of
that team. Now, these were some of his prime years, Like he
easily could have wanted to post bigger box score numbers and take more shots,
and he never seemed anything but content filling that role. That kind of went
under under the radar for the most part. Sort of that what if is
if he never because he was basically having knee problems before he left Atlanta,
and so if he never has those knee problems and they sort of derailed his
career in general, I wonder if maybe he stays in Atlanta passed that perhaps
they were never going to give him the contract that Toronto did at the time.
That's still just that's just one of the better what ifs. But again,
the defensive workload that he shouldered was through the roof during his time there.
Moving on to who do you have? Four? Number six? Number
six? I have Josh Smith. I wavered a lot between whether I wanted
him or John Collins to be higher. It's it's tough with with smooth,
just because it's hard to remember, like exactly what he did after as we
talked about after the end of his his NBA career, and he never really
seemed to fully maximize what his on court abilities were. I'm actually more intrigued
by the fans selection of Kyle Corver at number six. I know we both
have him yet to come in ours, but it's he's definitely a fascinating player
in the last decade for Atlanta, just because he was such a specialist.
But he was so impactful as a specialist and had so many memorable moments between
the three point streak and the dunks that he threw down in transition during that
that magical sixty win season. Yeah, I mean I'm with you there,
My who the fan vote at Kyle Korver a number six? I actually feel
like that's almost low. Yeah, yeah, I mean we both have him
at number five. Not to spoil anything, my number six. I was
tempted to drag down below both Carol and again Collins was so tough for me.
I just wanted to keep moving him up. I have Joe Johnson only
two seasons with Atlanta fall under this window. The reason I have him bumped
up, and there's a I would possibly put him higher if I felt like
he had the trademark Atlanta Hawks moment at least during this time, and he
doesn't. But he's the aside from Trey Young, when you look at this
list, he's the closest thing they have to a primary score during this time.
And so his twenty eleven two twelve season specifically, he was just a
monster Offensively. Wasn't his highest scoring season, but he shot thirty eight point
eight percent from three on five point four attempts per game, and there was
this level of consistency to him people. You know, people joke about Isojoe,
but someone would go out there and at least competently get from scratch buckets.
To me, almost have to respect that. And you know, over
these two years, affective field goal percentage below fifty, I totally get it.
But through these two seasons over eighteen points a game, more than four
assists per game, and just having that dependable source of offense and someone who's
gonna draw some of the tougher d defensive assignments against him, not him covering
them, and still be able to be that source of offense. It's it's
huge to me in retrospect. I almost kind of wish I put him below
John Collins, but we've already talked about my my moral dilemma there with with
John, Right, Yeah, I think the versatility and the from a scratch
creation are just such big points in Isojoe's favor. He during these during these
last couple of seasons in Atlanta, he was creating around like sixty percent of
his buckets without using an assist, which is really important from a wing player,
especially because he was capable of attacking from the post or you know,
working from the elbows or taking threes, and that ability to draw constant attention
from a primary defender on the other team was a really big deal. There's
there's no doubt about that. Still, he's going to be the one that
I feel like, insofar as people listen to this that might think that probably
the most overrated one. You had him at nine, I had him at
eight eight, so just because he only spent two seasons there, so I
would totally understand so hard because of the two seasons. Yeah, you already
spoiled number five for the two of us, But take it away with with
Kyle Korver, yeah. I mean it's it's all about those three point shots,
right, I mean, just he was that that constant spot up threat.
I think the play I associate most with him and Atlanta is just curling
off one screen, catching it at the top of the key and just like
leaning in a little bit as he shot. And it was the same form
every time. It always looked good. He made forty five point two percent
of his threes while taking five point five per game in Atlanta over five seasons,
all of which do qualify for this time period, So it's you know,
he was an All Star that one season when the Hawks won sixty games,
it felt kind of like a more of an inclusion because the team was
so good than anything he did. It's one of the weirder All Star selections
we've seen in a while. But at the same time, he like he
made forty nine point two percent of his threes that year while taking six per
game like that. As we know in this this fully modernized NBA where everyone
is shooting like that, that matters a lot. Can you guess where Kyle
Korver ranks during this time period? And minutes played for the Hawks too.
I'm not sure that people realize just how extensive his involvement was. I'm gonna
guess fourth third, behind only Millsap and Al Horford. I thought Tigue might
have been ahead of him too. You are absolutely maybe he was. He
was above Millsapp. Excuse me, Tigue leads the team, Corford and then
Korver. Yeah, we all in the same ballpark. I would imagine.
I did not look that up, so I'm switballing here. I was just
trying to look at sample size, and so it was not that I wasn't
like floored. But when you just when you think about like Kyle Corver being
thirty minutes during this time, or at least being ahead of Paul Millsap there
was was fairly interesting to me. But you just look, I mean,
the dude is just a sniper and some of the things. I know,
he wasn't really allowed to dribble, but he could make some some nice passes
at times. And the shots that he's taking from three, you know,
those are not they were not all these easy shots. Just they're so quick
coming around screens, needs like sub zero seconds to get them off. And
when you look at this specific window, there are only four players that hit
more threes than him Steph Clay, Harden and Dame. And so that's like
incredible company to be in as a guy who is firmly below those superstars that
are in front of him and just so valuable to those to the best talks
teams in recent memory that re remembered opening things up for everybody and being someone
that could just bend the defenses as not just the shots he's making, but
watching him move off the ball when he was closer to his prime. Just
I feel like it counted as a form of cardio watching Kyle Korver move off
the ball during these years, and he's all about those unique types of cardio
during the offseason training. But I actually don't think we've mentioned what I think
is the most underrated part of his game, and that's his defensive rebounding.
He was always really good at reading those cams and he had such strong hands,
Like it was amazing watching how many times he would be in the land
of bigs and somehow come down with the ball, like if he got his
hands on it, he was going to get the defensive rebound. Yeah,
definitely an underrated part of his game. I'm looking at his defensive rebounding percentage
during this time, and I would not have expected it to be over twelve.
Yeah, yeah, it's really solid. Who do you have at number
four? Before I do that, I'm gonna tell you that Joe Johnson was
fifth in the fan vote, and he actually had one of the most interesting
voting breakdowns too, because only the top finisher on both of our ballots and
the fan vote had more first place votes than him. But he was also
left off almost half of the ballots, so there was a really big split
between people who thought he was there. Actually the same number of people thought
that he was in the first and second spot as had him off of the
top ten entirely. It makes me feel a little bit better about putting him
number six. And the number of times I tried to skip over the fan
results, it's clearly it's clear that I don't care about you people. I'm
a terrible person. Yeah, I think it's it's impressive that you've maintained this
like veil of caring for so long and it's just all being shattered now.
I'm doing everything I can to to involve our Twitter followers and our fans and
our faithful listeners here self quarantine his just it's I've lost the ability to even
fake it anymore. Apparently, who do you have at number four? I
have the same person as the fan vote, and that is Trey Young,
who was really hard to rank because I think you can make a convincing argument
that his current season is the best we've seen from any Hawk during this decade
time frame. But it's only his second season. So what are we supposed
to do with him here? Well, look at where he's going. Just
the percentage he shoots unassisted threes is through the roof. You have to cover
him, or at least try too as soon as he crosses the timeline.
And what I really think, well, he's a defensive disaster. There's there's
just no other way around that. But a lot of people were worried about,
well, what's he going to do inside the arc? He is.
I've seen takes where they say that he doesn't elevate the play of his teammates.
That's just not true. He's a fantastic passer, totally b s.
Yeah, and he's really done a better job than I would have expected at
getting looks in around the rim. His floater game is legitimate, and he
seems to know how and when to get his shots off when he's in traffic
and putting them just out of reach of the longer arms that are in front
of him, and just someone who keeps the defense in perpetual tilt. And
the Hawks run this season about a league average offense when he's on the court,
And so that's what people have used as evidence that maybe he didn't deserve
to be an All Star, or he's not as far along as as we
think. Perhaps there's some truth to that, but they are terrible when he's
off the court. They just don't have any outlets aside from him, and
I think that makes his job actually harder when he's on the floor, because
you can't do these things that the Warriors have done with Stephen Curry, maybe
to too much extremes in the past, where you can get imagine if Trey
Young got to get running off the ball a little bit. I feel like
that's a part of his game that could that could not only be expanded,
but something that would actually be work and turned into a weapon. And so
if you get him a secondary ball handler rather than senior citizen Jeff te at
this point, I feel like those are some things that you could look at,
and so when you look at his trajectory, I do think there's a
chance that he ends up being, let's say, one of the three best
players in Hawk's history. I think that's in actual consideration. I know you
said he'll never pass pett It, there's also a unique that you have to
consider. I certainly think that he is at least right now on the course
to surpass the Al Horford Paul millsapped here. Yeah, I think that,
assuming health, that three might be the floor. As hard as it is
to get to that number one spot past the two unquestionable legends and franchise history,
but yeah, I mean the trajectory he's on is astronomical right now.
And I'm actually not as concerned about his defense as most people seem to be.
Not because he's good at defense, he's not, he's terrible, but
because point guard defense is really hard in today MBA, and the difference between
a really good point guard defender and a really bad one isn't necessarily as important
as the differences between other positions floors and ceilings there. And you have to
remember that Atlanta has done a really bad job putting complimentary defensive talent around him.
You know, if you have a guy who's basically a traffic cone on
the defensive end, you should probably have some sort of rim protection waiting behind
him. That isn't John Collins figuring out how to play defense at the NBA
level. And it just seems like while this front office has done a good
job accruing talent and making sure that there are enough assets during this ongoing rebuild,
it hasn't necessarily put together the right types of players to mitigate Trey's biggest
flaw. I think that's changed the perception of both his defense and his overall
game, even though it should be abundantly clear that his offense between the passing
he's probably one of the five best passers in the NBA right now, and
his scoring, which is obviously ridiculous, you know, those so clearly outweigh
the defensive warts, right and just the efficiency with which he's doing it above
average efficiency in general relative to league averages, and the level of difficulty on
his shots is just absurd. I also kind of think he gets to the
line a little bit more than then people realize as well. So he's just
this offensive force from every imaginable angle he was. He's my number three,
actually, so I won't spend too much time on him when we get there.
My number four is actually Jeff Teague always just there. This I feel
like could be maddening, but was also the steadying force and he was never
this big time floor general. But he was also an okay creator when he
maybe wasn't turning the ball over every five seconds out of the pick and roll,
took some ending shots. But on some of those other Hawks teams,
he was valuable because he could play off the ball as well from some of
their other players. I feel like he was could he be compared to,
maybe like in Alex Smith just saying he was a game manager, and that
goes really underappreciated. Perhaps Alex Smith had more big play potential than Jeff t
But that's really the sort of vibe that I always got from him. I
did not anticipate having to defend Jeff Teague as much as I'm going to have
to hear. He was my number three. He was the fans number three,
So all all three voting parties had Tigue and Trey in some combination at
three and four. But I think he was so much more than just there.
Like, yeah, the bairness and the longevity of his time in Atlanta
over this past decade is what ultimately pushed him above Trey who has made that
an official stat for NBA math barness. Yeah, absolutely, but no,
I think Trey obviously is the highest ceiling. He's obviously more impactful on a
per game basis. But like, let's not sell primetigue too short. Like
the guy was fourth, I know, but you said he was just there,
Like Okay said he was studying presence. That's kind of the same thing
as just there. But like in his in his prime, he's averaging sixteen
points and seven assists with under three turnovers per game. He's keying everything they
do on offense with his quickness, Like how many times did he break down
defenders and get into the lane and hit a kickout past one of the many
shooters around him? Like his his ability to operate off the dribble is what
made those offenses go, and he seemed to always make good decisions, and
those those teams were best when he was hitting his floater, which was inconsistent
at best. He did have some seasons where it just clicked. Everything worked
and you see the results when the Hawks win sixty games, but that that
didn't that didn't last as as long as many Atlanta fans would have liked for
it too, And the end of the season right after that one was definitely
a dramatic decrease, even as he kind of put the together more from three
and his latest stint in Atlanta is definitely working to knock down the rankings.
But yeah, I think he was. He was. He was about so
much more than his bairness. I will say Jeff t maybe, let's say
twenty thirteen to twenty sixteen, maybe seventeen, Jeff Teque was better defensively dependable
there that I think a lot of people were probably would probably give him credit
for. So there there's my hat tip to Jeff te since you're claiming I
shit all over him, even though I just compared him to the goat Alex
Smith, who was the fans? Did we already reveal the fans number four?
Yeah? The fans Number four was Trey and number three was Tigue,
who I also have a three. So I have I have Trey Young at
three. And you've heard my reasoning. Do you have a problem with Trey
being overtigue. That's probably the thing we should ask. I think it just
depends on what you're valuing. And you've made it clear that you're using a
little bit of projection here. And I don't think there's anyone who would say
that that tigue is his better than Trey Young. It's just it's a matter
of how much you value the airness kind of a surprise iPhone call coming in
during this thing we were go live here. It always seems like, look
there it goes again. I continue to get I think he had to take
it on the air. Now. No, I can't do that because it
was my father in law. So I don't really know what that's going to
be about. Who did you have for I feel like we're gonna be consensus
now we're consensus of the fans too. In the top two, so number
two for both of us. Who did we have? We had Paul millsap
so good, so good, so underrated, so good, just did everything
he could have. I actually didn't double check this. I feel like he
should have made and maybe he did him. I'm looking at it right now.
I feel like he definitely should have made an all defensive team during his
time with the Hawks. Did he don't. I don't think he did.
He made one made he made one during the sixty one season, or no
during the forty eight and thirty four seas In twenty fifteen sixteen, but he
should have made more than that. Yeah he made wow, yeah two?
That was the second team All Defense. I would have thought that he even
twenty fifteen, twenty sixty, I feel like maybe he should have been first
team. I have to look at those results there. I feel like I
remember him getting like some fringe love and defensive Player of the Year discussions too.
Am I making that up? No? Certainly, dude, so looking
at guys who cross the threshold of he's a big and so like I.
But I put him in that year like he was the same just sort of
thinker that Draymond Green was for the Warriors. Probably not as probably not as
extensive there, but that's the type of defender that Paul Millsapp was in his
prime where he could defend basically everyone, and so that was a huge part
of Atlanta's success during that time. I feel like he's so ingrained into the
success of the Hawks that you look at it and it's almost a little bit
wild. That he was only there what was it four seasons? Only four
seasons? Yeah, it makes you feel like he should have been there a
lot longer. But he's the clear cut number two for me, and Trade
will eventually pass him, but as of right now, it's hard to put
him any lower than that. No, I totally agree with you. It's
it's interesting that, like Millsap seems to be one of the most forgettable great
players of this of this decade, probably regardless of which franchise we're talking about,
just because he was so good at everything and I'm not quite sure what
was like truly elite aside from the defensive versatility and his pump fake. All
right, that's fair number one. You want to reveal anything, I mean,
like, is anyone going to be surprised that it's al Horford here?
Excuse me? How is it not Mike Scott emoji tattoo king? Yeah,
I mean, he had some very memorable transition dunks and threes and emojis,
and that's all I've got on Mike Scott. Alhor forever underrated, maybe not
so much this season, but one of my not my favorite things, but
one of the most ridiculous things is how often, particularly during the talent of
his time in Atlanta, that people just wanted to still call him a power
forward. And it's like, you know, I never understood that. Even
earlier in his career, if you look at the minutes breakdowns, it said
that he logged a lion share of his minutes at the five, but at
least there was more time, you know, especially before Millstap came along,
he had some seasons where they were just larger splits. Al Horford was the
center and he was just so good. Just did never did I guess anything
you could say at a superstar level, though I do think he came.
He was at that. He was at that level defensively for at least a
few seasons, including both of his years in Boston, or maybe all three
of the seasons in Boston, excuse me, but just did everything and did
it really well at fringe star levels, let's say, on offense, from
facilitating, from being able to pump, fake and put the ball on the
more for being a pick and pop option at a time when those weren't nearly
as common as they are now. And I never understood just the lack of
appreciation for him. I know it was exacerbated in Boston because just because of
some of his performances and you look at oh, Tristan Thompson absolutely owned him
in certain matchups. But and then even the Hawks teams, you know,
them getting steamrolled by the Calves in twenty sixteen playoffs. Is that where they
just they won sixty games and went four. Oh, I think that's the
year was fifteen. Yeah, So that's the fun thing about histories. They
all the years just just melt together. That's how you know they're getting old.
So forever underappreciated in my book, and he might he not might,
He's going to go down, I think is just one of the most underrated
players in the NBA of all time. Right, So we just we just
said that Paul Millsap is like the one of the most underappreciated, overlooked stars,
And in some ways it feels like Horford is essentially like a rich man's
version of Paul Millsap, which I think is appropriate for the largely forgettable Atlanta
Hawks to have those two guys in their top two spots until Tray surpasses them
both. But yeah, I mean, like I don't really have that much
to add on your description of him aside from like, if you have one
image of the non Trey Hawks over the past decade, it's either going to
be a Joe Johnson isolation shot or Al Horford elbow out like fifteen foot elbow
jumper. And also the way he but for a big probably one of the
best transition defenders among big men, I would think, and more switchable than
people gave him credit for. Two he had those in his prime, at
least he had those. No, that's not a good comparison. He was
just he was never the quickest, but he was just always let's talk about
his defensive fairness. He was just always in the right spot that he needed
to be and where he's able to use his length or put space between guys
to keep smaller players in front of him. And like you said, super
switchable at his peak. Yeah, I think he's another player who gets a
lot of a lot of credit for his thereness. That's an official stat.
Now let's start using it. He's there now. Absolutely. That wraps it
up for us here sub forty five minutes. I think that solid. We'll
try and go a little bit quicker in the future. Although we spent forty
five minutes on the Hawk some of these pods in my last a couple hours.
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I leave everybody with the shout out too. Josh Smooth, Josh smidt,
Jay Smooth, shout out to him, Sugar Ray, Leonard, Roberto
Duran, Marvelous, Marvin Hagler, and Thomas Hearns, legends whose four way
rivalry define one of the greatest errors in boxing history, relive their decade of
dominance in the new Showtime Sports documentary The Kings, a four parts series premiering
Sunday, June sixth, only on Showtime