1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:07,200 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,719 --> 00:00:12,039 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,000 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,719 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:29,079 Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,799 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:50,000 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Over Murderer. I'm Bill Thomas and 10 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:55,399 Kristin Dilley is on a well deserved vacation, which means I'm flying this ship 11 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:59,799 solo and perhaps almost blind. I don't know, we'll find out. Join 12 00:01:00,159 --> 00:01:07,000 us today is Wendy Reid, retired investigator who's very prominently featured in the new 13 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:12,400 Burden of Proof documentary on HBO, which discusses the Jennifer Pando's case. So 14 00:01:12,519 --> 00:01:17,760 Wendy, Welcome to Mind over Murder. Thank you for having me. So 15 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:21,599 before we get into the Jennifer Pando's case, Wendy, tell us a little 16 00:01:21,599 --> 00:01:25,599 bit about yourself, about where you grew up. You and I were discovering 17 00:01:25,599 --> 00:01:27,159 that we're both I don't know if you like the word brat, but we're 18 00:01:27,159 --> 00:01:32,840 both service brats. Tell us a little bit about your life, where you're 19 00:01:32,879 --> 00:01:36,319 from, that sort of thing. Yeah, I grew up in a military 20 00:01:36,359 --> 00:01:40,560 family. My dad was in the Coast Guard, so we actually grew up 21 00:01:40,599 --> 00:01:46,239 in Yorktown, which is very close to Williamsburg. I lived there for most 22 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:51,719 of my childhood up until almost middle school. Moved to Boston. I lived 23 00:01:51,719 --> 00:01:57,680 on Cape Cod and then Saint Louis and graduated high school and went to college, 24 00:01:57,719 --> 00:02:00,120 and then I joined the Air Force. My dad wouldn't let me join 25 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:07,879 the Coastguard. He said everywhere he went to he was always put up in 26 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:12,319 Air Force billeting, and we lived on Air Force bases, and he said 27 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:15,280 they treat their people the best. My intention was to go in for four 28 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:20,960 years and use that to go to college, and that's what I did. 29 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:24,400 I lived in Montana and then I separated, got out and became a police 30 00:02:24,439 --> 00:02:29,199 officer. So then how many years were you actually in the air force? 31 00:02:29,319 --> 00:02:31,800 Was it just the four? Just the four? Yeah, I knew. 32 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:36,680 My mom said, I always said that I was going to be a police 33 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,719 officer when I grew up, and I knew going in, I wanted to 34 00:02:39,759 --> 00:02:45,240 do it for four years, get the training and the education, and then 35 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:50,120 come back and be a police officer. Before we get into that, let 36 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,439 me jump back to something here. Your dad was assigned to Saint Louis. 37 00:02:53,599 --> 00:02:59,240 What kind of coastguard do we have in Saint Louis. I thought that was 38 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,919 on the missus Hippie River. Yeah, they actually do a lot on the 39 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:07,840 Mississippi River. Yeah, and he was. He was at the headquarters there. 40 00:03:07,199 --> 00:03:12,240 He was a master chief my whole life. He was a master chief. 41 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:15,599 He was never on a boat when I was alive. Oh, he 42 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:21,439 wasn't. Oh he did spend some time up at Sioux Saint Marie on a 43 00:03:21,479 --> 00:03:24,960 boat when he first enlisted. But yeah, during my lifetime, he was 44 00:03:25,039 --> 00:03:30,439 always at headquarters buildings, so he was directing people that were on boats. 45 00:03:30,479 --> 00:03:34,840 But when you're the master chief, you're pretty high up, so you're one 46 00:03:34,879 --> 00:03:38,520 of the people that's in charge. Correct. Yeah. Would you go to 47 00:03:38,919 --> 00:03:44,240 his office and see what it was like when your father was at work or 48 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:47,240 were you exposed to that side of things? Oh? Absolutely. When we 49 00:03:47,319 --> 00:03:54,039 lived in Boston, their office had like season tickets to the Bruins. Oh 50 00:03:54,159 --> 00:03:58,520 nice, yeah, yeah, and they would like raffle the tickets off, 51 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:00,840 and when people could and go, they would give him to my dad. 52 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,479 So I would actually go up with him in the morning and spend the day, 53 00:04:04,759 --> 00:04:09,240 and then we'd go to the game that night. Oh how fun? 54 00:04:09,439 --> 00:04:13,919 Is this the old Boston Garden or am I dating myself now? It was 55 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,720 the old Garden? Yeah? Yeah, of course. My dad was a 56 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:26,160 naval officer and his final active duty slot was running the Armed Forces Police Department 57 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:30,279 out of the old Boston Navy Yard. Okay, and this was his career 58 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:34,120 was winding down and he was actually moving towards a career in academia. This 59 00:04:34,199 --> 00:04:41,439 was during the time frame of the Boston Bruins, Bobby or that team was 60 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:46,240 red hot, and we moved back to Lowell, Massachusetts, up north of 61 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:48,480 Boston. If we were heading into high school, So the Bruins were a 62 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:54,959 really big deal back then. Every kid in New England had Bobby or flying 63 00:04:55,040 --> 00:05:00,319 through the air vertically having just scored yet another goal for the Bruins. And 64 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:03,639 we would watch the Bruins on television, and we got a chance to go 65 00:05:03,639 --> 00:05:06,720 to the old Boston Garden several times, and then of course later as I 66 00:05:06,759 --> 00:05:10,279 got to be a teenager, that would be the place we'd go to see 67 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:14,240 concerts. I'm sure the New Boston Garden is great, but I still have 68 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:19,519 fond memories of We would take the train into North Station and then the arena 69 00:05:19,639 --> 00:05:26,160 was upstairs, and you'd go up these long, winding ramps to see the 70 00:05:26,199 --> 00:05:30,240 Bruins and the Celtics play there. Yeah, it was quite the experience, 71 00:05:30,439 --> 00:05:34,160 that's for sure. And then you were saying that it was quite a contrast 72 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:40,879 for you then to go from relatively small high school on Cape Cod to a 73 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:46,519 big high school in Saint Louis. It was. Yeah. I have conversations 74 00:05:46,519 --> 00:05:51,000 sometimes with people that they live in the same area of their whole entire life 75 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:57,680 and they don't know anything different, and I really sometimes I long for that 76 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:02,680 in that sense of home. But at the same time, moving as much 77 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:10,319 as we did, I was exposed to so much diversity in different people and 78 00:06:10,519 --> 00:06:15,519 different cultures since I see it as a blessing now as an adult. I 79 00:06:15,519 --> 00:06:17,279 hated it as a kid. Every time you made friends, you moved. 80 00:06:17,319 --> 00:06:24,519 But now it's just I'm so thankful for the experiences that I was able to 81 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,720 have. Yeah, we really liked it. There were four kids in my 82 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,079 family, and yes, it is hard to say goodbye to your friends, 83 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,879 but we looked upon it as an adventure. My dad would come home every 84 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:38,560 two years back then, typically towards the end of the school year, and 85 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:42,720 we'd have a family meeting, and then he would tell us where we were 86 00:06:42,759 --> 00:06:46,720 going to move. Yeah, and this is before the internet. We would 87 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,160 then go typically we still had a few weeks left in school, and of 88 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:54,040 course we would go to the library a lot. We'd go and read about 89 00:06:54,079 --> 00:06:58,279 the new place we were going. I remember we look at pictures and get 90 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,360 out the encyclopedia and look at maps. My mom and dad would show us 91 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:05,079 where we were going to be living. It was an adventure. And then 92 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:10,040 the four of us as kids, three boys and one girl, my younger 93 00:07:10,079 --> 00:07:14,480 sister Kathy, we'd pulled together and we'd be our own kind of gang. 94 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:16,920 But a lot of times when we were moving and I'm not sure if this 95 00:07:16,959 --> 00:07:20,399 happened as much for you. We would be moving to places where there were 96 00:07:20,439 --> 00:07:26,439 lots of other military kids, so they had a sense of the drill, 97 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:30,279 and they also knew that it was important to make friends and to make friends 98 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:35,160 quickly and to be welcoming of the new kids. Right in one or two 99 00:07:35,199 --> 00:07:40,360 places, we moved to towns where there were not a lot of other military 100 00:07:40,399 --> 00:07:45,959 kids, and it was really noticeable. We moved to Deptford, New Jersey, 101 00:07:46,079 --> 00:07:48,839 because there was no housing available on the Philadelphia Naval Base, so we 102 00:07:48,839 --> 00:07:54,120 were across the river in suburban New Jersey, and these kids mostly had all 103 00:07:54,199 --> 00:07:58,800 grown up in that town, and they were incredibly unfriendly. They even called 104 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:03,600 my older brother, Richard, Hawaii because we had lived in Hawaii before then 105 00:08:03,839 --> 00:08:07,839 just and they said where are you from? And he said Hawaii, which 106 00:08:07,879 --> 00:08:11,680 was true. They actually didn't even call him by his name, Richard. 107 00:08:11,759 --> 00:08:16,800 They called him Hawaii because they'd never met anybody. Now here's a guy with 108 00:08:16,079 --> 00:08:20,360 red hair and fair skin and blue eyes. It wasn't like he was a 109 00:08:20,519 --> 00:08:26,199 native of the Hawaiian Islands. The kids were super unfriendly, just not nice. 110 00:08:26,879 --> 00:08:31,879 A few months later, housing became available on the Philadelphia Naval Base and 111 00:08:31,959 --> 00:08:35,039 we moved again, and the kids there, who were all Navy and Marine 112 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:37,799 Corps kids, they were very welcoming. They knew what it was like to 113 00:08:37,799 --> 00:08:43,559 be the new kid. That would happen every couple of years in most examples. 114 00:08:43,879 --> 00:08:48,440 So now you're the kid unlike most of us, who knew what she 115 00:08:48,519 --> 00:08:52,639 wanted to do. You wanted to be in law enforcement. How did you 116 00:08:52,639 --> 00:08:56,519 get into law enforcement when you got out of the Air Force. I came 117 00:08:56,559 --> 00:09:03,759 back to Virginia and I ended up applying at a small local sheriff's office, 118 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:07,000 and I actually worked in the jail there for a couple of years, and 119 00:09:07,039 --> 00:09:11,799 then I taught the DARE program. I had gone to a school and met 120 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:16,840 a guy who worked with James City Police Department, and he just went on 121 00:09:16,879 --> 00:09:20,440 and on about how great of a department it was and how I should go 122 00:09:20,519 --> 00:09:26,000 over and work for them, and he sent me an application and I put 123 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:31,080 in and that was it. That's how I ended up with James City. 124 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:35,639 So what year is it that you're joining the James City, Virginia Police Department. 125 00:09:37,159 --> 00:09:41,879 It was two thousand and two when I got hired. In July of 126 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:45,600 two thousand and two and now help us out for those of us that are 127 00:09:45,639 --> 00:09:48,840 not from Virginia, which includes me. Kristin Dilley, my podcast partner, 128 00:09:48,919 --> 00:09:56,120 would laugh. Why do we call this place James City County. It's such 129 00:09:56,159 --> 00:10:01,320 an odd little name. I have no IDEA very odd night. Yeah, 130 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:07,919 but it is a county police department, correct for James City County, which 131 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:11,639 is not a city but a county. Correct. Okay, Yeah, it 132 00:10:11,639 --> 00:10:16,320 pretty much surrounds the city of Williamsburg. Williamsburg is a super small city, 133 00:10:16,639 --> 00:10:22,679 and then James City Canty surrounds Williamsburg. You would think I would know the 134 00:10:22,759 --> 00:10:28,120 story of why it is sold out, but I do not. So does 135 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:33,879 Williamsburg, Virginia have its own police force? They do, Yeah, Williamsburg 136 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:39,879 Police Department. And so James City County is the surrounding area is around Williamsburg. 137 00:10:41,519 --> 00:10:46,000 Correct? Is there cross jurisdiction or would you hand something off to Williamsburg 138 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:50,000 pet if it was within the city limits? Yeah, if it's within the 139 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:56,440 city, then the Williamsburg Police Department would handle it. Yeah. And I 140 00:10:56,480 --> 00:11:01,360 mean it's a weird area because there's also York County, So you can walk 141 00:11:01,639 --> 00:11:05,960 a half a mile and step foot in James City County, Williamsburg, and 142 00:11:07,159 --> 00:11:11,600 York County. There are so many places where one side of the road is 143 00:11:11,639 --> 00:11:16,559 York County and the others James City, and there's so much the intertwines. 144 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:22,480 Yeah, if it happens in the city of Williamsburg, then the Williamsburg Police 145 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:28,840 Department would handle it. The Jennifer Pandos case starts in February nineteen eighty seven, 146 00:11:28,879 --> 00:11:33,720 with the disappearance of this fifteen year old girl from the King's Mill Resort 147 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:41,279 slash housing development. Tell us about your involvement with the case. So you're 148 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:46,799 at the James City County Police Department. How did you first hear about the 149 00:11:46,799 --> 00:11:52,159 Pandos case and then how did you get involved officially? Yeah, there was 150 00:11:52,399 --> 00:11:58,200 a bulletin board in our police department that important information would be posted on. 151 00:11:58,759 --> 00:12:03,759 And one day I saw like a missing person's poster and it was for Jennifer 152 00:12:03,799 --> 00:12:07,720 and I had her picture on there and that she had disappeared in eighty seven, 153 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:11,519 and I was just like, that's weird. I'd never heard of it. 154 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:16,240 I didn't know anything about it. It was just this poster on a 155 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:22,639 law and I had been slated to go to the Investigations division at that point. 156 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:28,240 So I talked with the major in charge of the investigations division and said, 157 00:12:28,279 --> 00:12:31,759 hey, what's the deal with this case? And can I look at 158 00:12:31,759 --> 00:12:37,080 it? And he's yeah, sure, he said, the case files missing, 159 00:12:37,279 --> 00:12:41,679 so we don't really know a whole lot. In January of two thousand 160 00:12:41,759 --> 00:12:46,320 and six is when I went to investigations, and it was shortly after that 161 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:52,960 I was officially assigned the case. Did you ask for the Pando's case as 162 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:56,960 a result of that interest? I did, Yeah, I asked to work 163 00:12:56,039 --> 00:13:01,480 the case. It's two thousand and six. That case took place originally in 164 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:05,879 nineteen eighty seven. It's probably considered a cold case at this point. I 165 00:13:05,919 --> 00:13:11,240 don't know if people used that expression, did they at the time. I 166 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:16,000 don't remember specifically if it was classified as a cold case. We didn't have 167 00:13:16,039 --> 00:13:20,279 a cold case division at that point. I know it was being worked on 168 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:26,039 sporadically, but no, there was no cold case division. Later one was 169 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:30,399 developed and I was assigned to that, but at the time there was no 170 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:35,559 cold case division. But that was certainly what I would consider a cold case 171 00:13:35,759 --> 00:13:39,799 for sure. Now, what other sorts of cases were you working when you 172 00:13:39,879 --> 00:13:46,200 started in investigations. In two thousand and six, I was assigned to basically 173 00:13:46,279 --> 00:13:50,759 violent crimes, murders, rape, robbery, things of that sort. Let's 174 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:56,080 talk about this missing case file. This figures prominently in the Burden of Proof 175 00:13:56,200 --> 00:14:01,879 documentary that's just made its debut on HBO. What did people say about the 176 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,279 missing case file? First of all, can you give us a rough idea 177 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:11,320 how big would a case file be? For that case? You would expect 178 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:20,080 probably thirty pieces of paper fifty pieces of paper in it, depending on what 179 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:24,679 the initial response was from the police department when she went missing. You would 180 00:14:24,679 --> 00:14:30,200 definitely expect there to be some substance to that case file. Would it be 181 00:14:30,279 --> 00:14:35,960 in a file folder or a box or they call these things red wells that 182 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:41,039 are expandable? What would it physically look like? Just a Manila folder? 183 00:14:41,799 --> 00:14:48,360 Our records division at that point, unfortunately, was not what I would call 184 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:54,799 secure. Anybody could walk in there. Ouch. Yeah. It was before 185 00:14:54,679 --> 00:15:01,600 anything was electronic, So all there was the paper copies of a file. 186 00:15:01,399 --> 00:15:07,279 The procedure to get a file was supposed to be you would go and request 187 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:13,000 the file and you would have to sign it out. There was only a 188 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,279 clipboard next to the door and you would get the file and then write your 189 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:20,720 name and the date and what file you have. But in order for that 190 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:26,000 to work, it's dependent on people actually doing what they're supposed to. Unfortunately, 191 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:31,080 with their not being any accountability to that, it went missing. Yeah, 192 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:35,720 and unlike cop shows that we watch on TV and enjoy, there isn't 193 00:15:35,759 --> 00:15:39,759 somebody there at the door, if you will, checking to make sure that 194 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:45,879 people signed the files in and out. No, absolutely not. It was. 195 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:50,759 There was a desk there for the record's clerk, but there was only 196 00:15:50,759 --> 00:15:52,960 one of them and she couldn't be there all the time, so it was 197 00:15:54,399 --> 00:15:58,600 basically left up to the integrity of the person to do what they were supposed 198 00:15:58,639 --> 00:16:02,399 to do. And it's sounds like I'm not trying to be two pointed here. 199 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:07,320 It sounds like things were sloppy back then. You said not secure. 200 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:12,039 Were people pretty investigators and others? Were they pretty informal about going in taking 201 00:16:12,039 --> 00:16:15,399 a look at a file, bringing it back, but not necessarily doing the 202 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:19,919 whole clipboard thing. Absolutely, Yeah, it was very lax. It was 203 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:26,799 a small department at that point. There was less than a hundred officers for 204 00:16:26,879 --> 00:16:33,600 the entire department. Yeah, and I think everybody was just complacent and oh, 205 00:16:33,639 --> 00:16:36,519 that won't happen, or oh, I'll put it back when I'm done 206 00:16:36,519 --> 00:16:41,440 with it, And unfortunately that didn't happen. And there were lots of theories 207 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:48,799 on what happened to the case file, some pretty outlandish, but yeah, 208 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:56,279 it was definitely a challenge not having that what's an outlandish theory about what might 209 00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:00,639 have happened to the case file. One of the avenue that we did explore 210 00:17:02,399 --> 00:17:08,880 we were told that Ron Pandos, Jennifer's father, played golf with the head 211 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:14,920 of security from Kingsmill. Kingsmill, where the Pandos has lived, has his 212 00:17:15,039 --> 00:17:19,319 own security division. Now it's a police department, but at that point I 213 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:23,559 believe it was only security. But we were told that Ron gulfed with the 214 00:17:23,599 --> 00:17:29,799 head of security there and it just so happened that his wife, when Jennifer 215 00:17:29,839 --> 00:17:34,400 disappeared, was the head of the records division or the James City Police Department. 216 00:17:34,839 --> 00:17:41,240 So one of the theories was through Ron's relationship with the head of security, 217 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:45,480 he had his wife take the file to help Ron and Margie, she 218 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:52,079 was the records clerk from then. She was interviewed and denied having any part 219 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:56,799 of that, but yeah, that was one of the one of the theories 220 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:02,279 of what happened to the case files seem plausible, but it is plausible. 221 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:07,200 Yeah, it could have happened, But I do not believe that's what happened 222 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:11,240 at all. No, although in the television series, I believe it's Cynthia 223 00:18:11,319 --> 00:18:15,519 Hill, the director of the film, who was mostly off camera. But 224 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:22,079 someone asks you a question, and in my opinion, having watched plenty of 225 00:18:22,079 --> 00:18:26,799 true crime, you appear embarrassed for the department. Oh absolutely, you indicate 226 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:33,720 as such. How did you feel when you found out that the file had 227 00:18:33,839 --> 00:18:41,039 magically reappeared. It's mixed feelings. I still remember exactly where I was when 228 00:18:41,079 --> 00:18:45,039 I got the phone call in what I was doing, and I was elatent 229 00:18:45,559 --> 00:18:49,839 when I got the phone call saying the file had been found. I thought, 230 00:18:49,839 --> 00:18:53,720 for sure that would open up a lot of things that we didn't know 231 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:59,519 and give us more opportunity for investigation. I was no longer assigned to the 232 00:18:59,519 --> 00:19:03,000 case. I had been promoted and was a supervisor in the patrol division at 233 00:19:03,039 --> 00:19:07,279 that point, so I wasn't working the case, but I was still I 234 00:19:07,319 --> 00:19:11,880 was so excited. And then when that excitement died down. It was like, 235 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:17,759 what in the world happened? That's just crazy. Was there ever an 236 00:19:17,839 --> 00:19:22,920 adequate explanation for where this case file went? How long a period of time 237 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:26,200 was the file in the Pandost case missing? Would you say, oh, 238 00:19:26,319 --> 00:19:30,759 gosh, when I went to investigations in two thousand and six it was gone. 239 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:36,000 I don't know how long before that it had been gone, And I'd 240 00:19:36,039 --> 00:19:44,039 say it was probably twenty sixteen when it was found. So we're talking about 241 00:19:44,039 --> 00:19:51,240 a decade maybe, quote unquote missing. Yeah, what were the circumstances of 242 00:19:51,279 --> 00:19:56,079 when the file was found? As you understand it. So, we had 243 00:19:56,119 --> 00:20:00,119 been in we called the old police department in two thousand then six, very 244 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:06,240 small building, no control over who went into records who didn't. When I 245 00:20:06,319 --> 00:20:10,799 was assigned the case and the case file was missing, I had met with 246 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:15,640 the head of the records division at the time. She searched the entire records 247 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:22,799 room. Basically they were paper boxes full of Minila folders with the case files 248 00:20:22,799 --> 00:20:27,799 in it. She searched through every single box, every single file cabinet. 249 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:33,799 Couldn't find it. A few years later, we had a new police department 250 00:20:33,799 --> 00:20:37,480 built and we're moving from the old police department to the new one. During 251 00:20:37,519 --> 00:20:42,839 that time, she had told me they went through every single file. She 252 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:48,359 said they opened up the files and actually looked in them to make sure maybe 253 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:53,920 the Pandos case accidentally got stuffed inside and mislabeled. So they went through every 254 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:59,119 file, every box before they moved, and then when they were unpacking the 255 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:03,279 files in the new building they also went through them again and there was no 256 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:07,960 sign of the case file. So it had been searched for in the records 257 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:14,400 division three times, pretty thoroughly, and then in the new department. The 258 00:21:14,519 --> 00:21:18,960 records division is accessed with a keycard, so there is a little more accountability 259 00:21:18,039 --> 00:21:22,960 for it. And by that time we were mostly electronic. You could access 260 00:21:23,039 --> 00:21:27,599 what you needed on the computer instead of having to get the actual hard copy 261 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:33,759 in the file. What I was told was one day someone in the records 262 00:21:33,759 --> 00:21:37,000 division went and opened up one of the paper boxes and there it was just 263 00:21:37,079 --> 00:21:42,799 sitting right flat on top, not as you would think if there's fifty files 264 00:21:42,839 --> 00:21:47,920 in a paperbox, they're all vertical so you can read the tabs on the 265 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:52,599 files. But this was laid across the top, so pretty obvious. There 266 00:21:52,759 --> 00:22:00,720 was no investigation as to what happened. There were theories of what happened. 267 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:06,279 My personal opinion is someone was complacent, they went and got the file to 268 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:11,039 actually do something with it, and probably stuck it into their desk or their 269 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:18,240 file cabinet. And there was a couple of people retiring around that time investigations, 270 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:26,880 and my opinion is that someone found it in their belongings and lacked the 271 00:22:26,039 --> 00:22:30,880 integrity to stand up and say, hey, my bad, I have this 272 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:34,440 and just stuck it in there, knowing that someone would eventually run into it. 273 00:22:34,799 --> 00:22:40,960 Not necessarily malevolent, just perhaps sloppy. And as you said, it 274 00:22:41,079 --> 00:22:44,400 was very informal back in the day. Someone went and got a file and 275 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:48,559 they'd take it back to their desk and maybe they were working the case actively. 276 00:22:48,559 --> 00:22:52,240 I was thinking the same thing, and yeah, you can go with 277 00:22:52,319 --> 00:22:56,039 all the ron pandos playing golf with the head of security theories you want, 278 00:22:56,160 --> 00:23:02,119 but I think most of the time it's sort of screw up if you will, 279 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:07,119 someone accidentally sticks the case file. And as you described it, it 280 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:11,519 wasn't that large. It wasn't like it was a banker's box full of files. 281 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,200 It was a Manila folder with documents in it, which could have been 282 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:21,960 misplaced. Yeah, I definitely don't believe it was anything malicious, Like you 283 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:27,000 said, I think it was sloppy, unprofessional, just lax. Yeah, 284 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:33,119 it's just it's so embarrassing, it really is. You're listening to Mind over 285 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:41,960 Murder. We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back 286 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:47,000 here at Mind over Murder, switching gears for a second. One of our 287 00:23:47,039 --> 00:23:52,960 takeaways Kristen and mine from watching the documentary was that we felt that Ron and 288 00:23:52,079 --> 00:23:57,319 Margie Pando's odd response. I will call it what I believe it to be, 289 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:03,759 and remember we lived through this with my sister Cathy's murder. I felt 290 00:24:03,759 --> 00:24:08,640 like the Pandos's response, as described in the television series and all the articles 291 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:17,319 we read to Jennifer's disappearance was extremely odd. Do you feel that their response 292 00:24:17,559 --> 00:24:23,400 to Jennifer's disappearance made them look like suspects, particularly Ron the father from the 293 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,880 beginning? Absolutely? For when I say from the beginning, I take that 294 00:24:29,039 --> 00:24:32,400 is when I got it, so at the beginning for me, yeah, 295 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:38,440 and I didn't know what their responses and reactions were when it initially occurred in 296 00:24:38,559 --> 00:24:42,519 nineteen eighty seven, but yeah, that what I had to go off of 297 00:24:42,799 --> 00:24:51,480 was a lot of people's memories from nineteen years before, and probably a lot 298 00:24:51,519 --> 00:24:53,519 of like the game of telephone, I heard this and I heard that, 299 00:24:53,759 --> 00:25:00,319 and yeah, the things I was hearing was definitely suspicious that they responded in 300 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,480 the way they did or didn't respond, Yeah, it was. It definitely 301 00:25:04,799 --> 00:25:10,200 made it seem suspicious. And I think a lot of times we look at 302 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:18,599 things from our own perspective and our own experiences, and everybody's different and are 303 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:23,160 going to have different reactions to things, and I think sometimes we get stuck 304 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,440 in the mindset of that's not what I would have done, So that's weird. 305 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,920 Yeah, but yeah, a lot of things that they did it did 306 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:37,960 seem suspicious and cast a lot of doubt onto what their involvement was. One 307 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:44,200 of the things that really shocked us was as the series unfold, and of 308 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:48,880 course, the four part television series is told roughly in chronological order, and 309 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:55,640 it's amazing to see footage from investigations and interviews all the way back to twenty 310 00:25:55,920 --> 00:26:00,319 sixteen, if my memory serves, But as the story unfold, it appears 311 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:10,759 that Margie Jennifer's mother actually has additional valuable pieces of evidence in her possession that 312 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:15,960 have never been turned over to law enforcement. For example, if I understood 313 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:21,920 the series correctly, they had the original copy of the note correct that was 314 00:26:22,079 --> 00:26:27,160 left, so that meant that law enforcement had a photocopy of it. Yeah. 315 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:33,039 I honestly, I don't remember offhand if there was a photocopy of the 316 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:37,759 note in the original pace file that ended up being located, but yeah, 317 00:26:37,799 --> 00:26:45,640 she definitely had the original the original note. Yeah. And then later on 318 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:51,920 these letters to and from Jennifer, their teenage daughter, are produced, and 319 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:56,319 they are in a box that Margie has been holding onto for more than thirty 320 00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:03,960 years. This struck me as foundly odd, particularly since so much of the 321 00:27:03,039 --> 00:27:08,880 discussion of the case and this note that was found at the time of Jennifer's 322 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:14,400 disappearance that switches back and forth between first and third person, so some of 323 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,880 it sounds like it's written by Jennifer, some of it sounds like it's written 324 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:25,400 by someone else. Since language and handwriting end up being so pivotal, I 325 00:27:25,599 --> 00:27:30,920 was baffled that Margie would be sitting on letters to and from her daughter for 326 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:37,200 over thirty years without ever thinking I should show these to the investigators. How 327 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:44,519 did you feel about that. Yeah, it was frustrating. Margie was never 328 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:52,200 super forthcoming. She would provide things if they were specifically asked for, but 329 00:27:52,599 --> 00:27:59,720 yeah, there was no urgency on her part to be proactive in the investigation. 330 00:28:00,559 --> 00:28:04,839 When I originally started talking to her and Stephen, I asked about physical 331 00:28:04,839 --> 00:28:11,480 abuse in the home and abuse in my home and was told no, there 332 00:28:11,559 --> 00:28:15,839 was none, And I can understand not wanting to admit that, but at 333 00:28:15,839 --> 00:28:21,440 the same time, in order to effectively work a case, you have to 334 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:27,400 have the truth. So it was frustrating to find out later the extent of 335 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:32,599 the abuse that was happening in the home and find out a lot of things 336 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:37,799 that would have been helpful if I would have had them initially during the investigation. 337 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:45,559 Did you feel that Stephen was also not forthcoming? He had said initially 338 00:28:45,599 --> 00:28:48,440 there wasn't any abuse in the home, and I think that if you grow 339 00:28:48,519 --> 00:28:56,279 up in a certain environment that that becomes your reality. And maybe at the 340 00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:03,400 time he didn't consider that to be abuse. I don't know, or maybe 341 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:08,599 it was just I fully remember sitting in Margie's living room with her and Stephen, 342 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,480 and I asked, Stephen, what do you think happened to your sister, 343 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,799 and he said, she ran away. And I said, why do 344 00:29:15,839 --> 00:29:18,960 you think that? And he said, I don't have any reason to believe 345 00:29:18,039 --> 00:29:22,759 otherwise. So I think he was in the dark for all of those years, 346 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:30,119 and I wouldn't say that he wasn't forthcoming. I think probably initially he 347 00:29:30,279 --> 00:29:36,559 didn't maybe believe that what he had gone through was abuse, because that was 348 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:41,240 just his reality growing up. One of the fascinating aspects of Burden of Proof 349 00:29:41,319 --> 00:29:48,720 is watching Stephen's view of the case change over the years. He seems much 350 00:29:48,799 --> 00:29:56,079 more willing now to admit that his father was incredibly abusive physically and emotionally, 351 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:03,039 but that maybe not where he was as a younger man. At some point 352 00:30:03,039 --> 00:30:07,480 he said something about everything I was led to believe in the first twenty two 353 00:30:07,599 --> 00:30:12,640 years of this case is wrong. So that's a big revelation to see him 354 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:18,119 go through and his viewpoint that first of all, my sister ran away, 355 00:30:18,519 --> 00:30:26,440 and then later thinking for years it would appear that his father is directly responsible 356 00:30:26,519 --> 00:30:30,920 for his sister's disappearance and likely murder, and that his mother is involved in 357 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:37,319 a cover up or is complicit somehow, and then later you begin to see 358 00:30:37,359 --> 00:30:41,720 that he's come around, as have others to the view that wait a minute, 359 00:30:41,839 --> 00:30:48,279 those stories are all wrong. She didn't run away. Perhaps Ron Pandos, 360 00:30:48,319 --> 00:30:52,440 the father is not involved in her disappearance, unlikely homicide, which steers 361 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:59,200 us to other suspects. But watching that journey, and I'm sure there are 362 00:30:59,279 --> 00:31:04,559 hundreds of hours of footage of Stephen and you and so many other people all 363 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:11,440 taking this personal and investigative journey, it's one of the most interesting aspects of 364 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:17,279 the show. Do you think it would have made a difference if law enforcement, 365 00:31:17,319 --> 00:31:25,359 for example, had had the original note? Absolutely? Yeah, I 366 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:30,519 worry though. I agree with you, But I worry though that the original 367 00:31:30,559 --> 00:31:36,279 note would have been put away accidentally, let's say, in the legendary missing 368 00:31:36,599 --> 00:31:41,480 file folder for all of those years, and there were no backups or duplicates 369 00:31:41,559 --> 00:31:47,319 of much of this material. Is that a fair statement. Yes, Yeah, 370 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:52,359 that's definitely a fair statement. Our situations like that better now, Wendy 371 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:56,359 than they were back then, in terms of I WinCE when I hear about, 372 00:31:56,519 --> 00:31:59,920 oh, these documents are missing, and I think to myself, there's 373 00:32:00,079 --> 00:32:05,079 no extra copy, there's no electronic copy, there's no nothing. Yeah, 374 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:10,519 it's definitely better now. I know that especially with the way that technology has 375 00:32:10,559 --> 00:32:16,720 advanced over the last fifteen years or so. Now reports are all done on 376 00:32:16,759 --> 00:32:23,039 the computer and they're automatically just uploaded, and there's an electronic copy of it, 377 00:32:23,319 --> 00:32:30,240 where when Jennifer disappeared it was just handwritten and something happened to the copy. 378 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:36,599 You've got a luck. So it's definitely I think much more of the 379 00:32:36,759 --> 00:32:40,759 secure situation now. So here's a question for you, if you were to 380 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:46,599 start working this case today, where would you start. If I had all 381 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:51,200 of the information, I would probably start where I started before, with the 382 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:55,240 parents, But there was also information in that case that leads you to other 383 00:32:55,279 --> 00:33:00,200 places too that I didn't have that information when I work that. Yeah, 384 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:06,279 I would still definitely look at the parents because there's still been a lot of 385 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:10,480 suspicious things that have happened with the parents, with things that they have said 386 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:15,079 and things that have happened during the investigation. So yeah, I would still 387 00:33:15,279 --> 00:33:21,559 start with them, but there were definitely more investigative avenues that would have been 388 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,920 approached. Our investigators in the Colonial Parkway murders have said to me over the 389 00:33:27,039 --> 00:33:31,599 years, Bill, no one's really cleared in a homicide investigation, and that's 390 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:37,720 I don't think Jennifer's walking through the door tomorrow, So I believe this is 391 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:43,279 a homicide. So no one's really cleared until the murder is cleared. That 392 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,039 is, we've identified a suspect and brought him or her to trial. As 393 00:33:47,079 --> 00:33:51,599 I understand it, people are on the likely list, that is, the 394 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,279 short list of people who are most likely suspects, and the less likely list. 395 00:33:57,039 --> 00:34:01,640 Ron Pandos, Margie Pandos and others have been mentioned as potential suspects, 396 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:07,680 and it makes perfect sense. Do you feel like the Pando's parents would be 397 00:34:07,759 --> 00:34:12,880 on that less likely list? At this point When you talk to people that 398 00:34:13,639 --> 00:34:20,920 know the case, it seems pretty split that some people, some investigators and 399 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,880 some officers believe yeah, the parents may have something to do with it, 400 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:30,719 and others believe no, it was the boyfriend. And I think there's evidence 401 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:36,800 that points to all of them less likely or more likely. It's hard to 402 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,800 say, really. If it were to go to court, say, if 403 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:45,800 the boyfriend was charged, I think it would be super hard to get a 404 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:51,679 conviction because of just the circumstantial evidence against the parents and the doubt that would 405 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,559 raise the same as if Ron were to be charged and go to court. 406 00:34:57,159 --> 00:35:04,800 There's evidence and circumstantial evidence against the boyfriend that would lead to doubt. So 407 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:09,920 it's a hard question to answer as far as less likely suspects. I think 408 00:35:10,199 --> 00:35:16,199 with the information now, it's just there's a likelihood that anybody could have done 409 00:35:16,199 --> 00:35:22,800 it. Wow, So you find yourself in a very frustrating place even now 410 00:35:22,039 --> 00:35:29,599 in twenty twenty three. Absolutely, yeah, I just there's clues pointing to 411 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:38,440 different people and it's hard to really settle on a belief as to who did 412 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:44,679 it. It's referenced in this series that you were working on a book on 413 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:50,039 the Jennifer Pandos disappearance. Are you still working on a book? I am. 414 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:54,840 We've had to start over a couple of times. Initially, what I 415 00:35:54,880 --> 00:36:01,840 wanted to do was tell my story of my journey along working this case and 416 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:08,719 what I ended up learning about Jennifer. And then when the documentary came along, 417 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:15,119 they delved into that, and I found that what I revealed during interviews 418 00:36:15,159 --> 00:36:20,880 with them, and a lot of that obviously wasn't aired, but I revealed 419 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:25,320 a lot of that during the interviews and a book would be redundant, I 420 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:31,000 think. So he changed the approach to that to be I'm not sure if 421 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:37,239 you're familiar with Patricia Cornwell or not, but she wrote a book called All 422 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:42,199 That Remains, Yeah, which is clearly based on the Colonial Parkway murders exactly. 423 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:51,000 Yeah, And while it is deemed as being fiction, it is very 424 00:36:51,079 --> 00:36:58,199 much based on actual events. It has recently turned into that sort of approach. 425 00:36:59,159 --> 00:37:05,199 While I wouldn't say it's in its infancy, yeah, it's I'm still 426 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:08,480 working on it, and it's something that i'd like to get out there eventually, 427 00:37:09,079 --> 00:37:15,400 but right now that's not Writing a book is not a priority in my 428 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:19,719 life, I guess right now, but it is something that I would like 429 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:24,599 out there at some point. We've discussed All That Remains, and I've never 430 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:30,599 spoken directly to Patricia Cornwall, but it's very clear. I'm considered the greatest 431 00:37:30,679 --> 00:37:36,599 expert outside of law enforcement in the Colonial Parkway murders. And it's not a 432 00:37:36,679 --> 00:37:39,800 role. I saw it, but it's just developed. But I remember being 433 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:45,920 shocked when I finally went out and bought a seventy five cent used copy of 434 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:52,159 the paperback of All That Remains and read the book. I was floored. 435 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:59,719 It is the Colonial Parkway murders, and in particular one of the homicides is 436 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:07,000 covered in so much detail. I believe that it is quite possible that Patricia 437 00:38:07,039 --> 00:38:15,519 Cornwall had a significant amount of non public information about that particular murder, which 438 00:38:15,599 --> 00:38:20,639 is considered part of the series in the Colonial Parkway Murders. I know the 439 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:25,119 case backwards and forwards when you get into that level of detail, and I 440 00:38:25,159 --> 00:38:30,599 think I've read every article, listened to every podcast, watched every interview, 441 00:38:31,039 --> 00:38:37,239 and I'm hearing and seeing things that just still aren't part of the public discussion. 442 00:38:37,639 --> 00:38:40,760 And I think to myself, that's interesting. If Patricia Cornwall wants to 443 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:46,320 discuss it with me, she's welcome to reach out. I am highly confident 444 00:38:46,639 --> 00:38:52,320 that the case as described in all that remains. She may have switched the 445 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:58,159 order around, and the lesbian couple aren't the first ones killed, and it's 446 00:38:58,159 --> 00:39:01,199 not one, two, three, four, but it's definitely the same case, 447 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:07,639 and the amount of detail is very striking. You might want to jump 448 00:39:07,679 --> 00:39:13,599 off then into more of a fictional version of what might have happened in the 449 00:39:13,679 --> 00:39:17,199 Pando's disappearance. Yeah, and I agree with you one hundred percent. You 450 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:22,480 and I had talked earlier about the fact that Jennifer lived very close to the 451 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:28,639 Colonial Parkway. Yes, and that was one of the investigative avenues I took 452 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:34,679 pretty early in the case, was did she find herself on the parkway and 453 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:39,679 become a victim there? I was allowed through that investigation to see the case 454 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:44,920 files for the Colonial Parkway murders. And Yeah, I agree with you one 455 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:51,639 hundred percent that that book is very accurate with a lot of facts that aren't 456 00:39:51,639 --> 00:39:55,880 public knowledge, or certainly weren't back then. In other words, we've done 457 00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:02,039 a ton of press and media. We did a four part television series, 458 00:40:02,039 --> 00:40:07,840 The Lover's Lane Murders on Oxygen, and I've been very outspoken as of other 459 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,920 family members about the details because we're trying to push the FBI in the Virginia 460 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:15,679 State Police. When the book came out, which I think is nineteen ninety 461 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:22,679 two, a lot of that information wasn't publicly available. Yeah, and I 462 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:29,639 know that she had reached out to people in law enforcement and talked about the 463 00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:34,519 case with them and talked about just different aspects of law enforcement in the area 464 00:40:34,519 --> 00:40:38,079 and things like that. How she got the information, who knows, But 465 00:40:38,159 --> 00:40:44,239 yeah, it was very striking how accurate some of it was, and really 466 00:40:44,559 --> 00:40:49,400 Jennifer's case is pretty much an open book at this point in the documentary, 467 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:53,199 Stephen going through all of these papers and things, and he was able to 468 00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:58,599 get the case file from when I took over the case, as far as 469 00:40:58,639 --> 00:41:04,159 I know, has not been able to foil the original case file that was 470 00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:12,119 lost, but my understanding is that he does have a copy of it. 471 00:41:12,119 --> 00:41:19,159 It's frustrating to some extent from an investigative standpoint that things like that do find 472 00:41:19,199 --> 00:41:23,760 their way to people who are not investigating it from a law enforcement standpoint, 473 00:41:24,199 --> 00:41:31,039 and why people leak things and never now what someone's motive is. Unfortunately, 474 00:41:31,119 --> 00:41:36,800 sometimes information that you wouldn't want out in the public ends up being there. 475 00:41:37,559 --> 00:41:42,280 Jennifer's case is pretty much an open book. I think the only way for 476 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:47,119 me to portray a story in a book form is to make it fiction and 477 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:52,880 take some liberties as to what happened, because in the end we have no 478 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:58,159 idea. Really at this point, do you think Jennifer Pando's disappearance can be 479 00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:04,800 solved? I think it absolutely. Whether or not it will is another story. 480 00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:12,320 You and I talked earlier about politics in agencies and whether or not this 481 00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:16,119 case from nineteen eighty seven as a priority for the James City County Police Department. 482 00:42:16,199 --> 00:42:22,440 Right now, I can't say I don't know. I know that there 483 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:28,320 are things that can be done still from an investigative standpoint, that aren't being 484 00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:35,239 done, haven't been done, and probably won't be. In a perfect world, 485 00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:40,880 you'd have unlimited resources to be able to investigate things, and unfortunately, 486 00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,920 in the raal world, it's not like that. Wendy, thank you so 487 00:42:46,039 --> 00:42:51,639 much for taking some time to talk with us. We really appreciate it. 488 00:42:51,639 --> 00:42:55,840 We hope you'll consider coming back with us as things develop anytime. Anytime. 489 00:42:58,159 --> 00:43:00,800 That's going to do it for this episode of Mine Over Murder. As always, 490 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:05,760 thanks for listening. Kristin Dilley will be back next time, so if 491 00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:08,159 you miss her as much as I do, she'll definitely be back when she 492 00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:14,880 returns from her beachside vacation. Thanks again for listening. We'll see you next 493 00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:30,519 time. Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. 494 00:43:30,039 --> 00:43:35,800 Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is 495 00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:40,320 by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder 496 00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:45,719 is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, 497 00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:50,639 Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our page on the Colonial 498 00:43:50,679 --> 00:43:54,440 Parkway murders on Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter 499 00:43:54,559 --> 00:44:00,880 at Bill Thomas. Five six. Thank you for listening to Mine Over Murder