WEBVTT 1 00:00:30.039 --> 00:00:33.679 Welcome back to part two of our coverage about the disappearance of Mary Jane Dan 2 00:00:33.719 --> 00:00:37.640 Gilder. Yes, because what they said about Albert is he was just not 3 00:00:37.679 --> 00:00:41.719 a guy who would adhere to any traditional structure, and like I said, 4 00:00:41.759 --> 00:00:44.520 he would just kind of drift in and out of his family's lives. He 5 00:00:44.799 --> 00:00:48.240 did have a history of trouble with the law, as he spent some time 6 00:00:48.240 --> 00:00:53.000 in jail for larceny for doing stuff like stealing contributions from an Easter Seals container 7 00:00:53.039 --> 00:00:57.119 at a tavern, and at one point apparently he stole his sister's table model 8 00:00:57.200 --> 00:01:02.280 radio and I know that to Adam did like a search on newspapers dot com 9 00:01:02.280 --> 00:01:04.599 to see if he could find anything about Albert, and it turned out that 10 00:01:04.680 --> 00:01:08.920 he made the news in nineteen sixty one when he was arrested for stealing a 11 00:01:08.920 --> 00:01:12.599 car and apparently bragged to the police that he had stolen over one hundred cars 12 00:01:12.599 --> 00:01:18.000 through of the course of his life. According to his grandniece, Tina Barrett's, 13 00:01:18.200 --> 00:01:22.680 no one really knows like when Albert was last seen. They apparently the 14 00:01:22.719 --> 00:01:26.359 surviving relatives think that they last saw sometime in nineteen sixty three or nineteen sixty 15 00:01:26.359 --> 00:01:30.439 four, but there was no record of his death anywhere, so it was 16 00:01:30.480 --> 00:01:33.760 just one of those things where he just stopped making contact with everyone. But 17 00:01:33.840 --> 00:01:38.159 they never reported and missing because they just thought that was typical behavior for Albert. 18 00:01:38.200 --> 00:01:41.840 They just thought he was just off doing his own thing and were unaware 19 00:01:41.959 --> 00:01:46.319 that he somehow wound up dead in a drainage ditch in Preble County, Ohio. 20 00:01:47.879 --> 00:01:51.280 That's crazy. So do they have any idea what his cause of death 21 00:01:51.439 --> 00:01:56.040 was? Do they think it was like an accidental in misadventure murder? We 22 00:01:56.120 --> 00:01:59.280 don't know yet. I know that you were unable to determine the exact cause 23 00:01:59.319 --> 00:02:02.079 of death back in nineteen sixty eight, so they're probably going to try to 24 00:02:02.120 --> 00:02:06.680 do like a new investigation on his body to decide if he was the victim 25 00:02:06.760 --> 00:02:10.560 of a homicide. I know that he originally lived in Hamilton and Hamilton, 26 00:02:10.639 --> 00:02:15.159 Ohio, which is in Butler County, and his remains were found about twenty 27 00:02:15.240 --> 00:02:17.719 five miles away, so we don't know what he was doing there when he 28 00:02:17.759 --> 00:02:23.479 wound up dead. But apparently there were some rumors, a family rumor that 29 00:02:23.599 --> 00:02:27.800 spread that Albert had been murdered rolled up in a piece of carpet and left 30 00:02:27.800 --> 00:02:31.159 on someone's porch, And these are rumors that are being told by today's generation 31 00:02:31.319 --> 00:02:35.680 that they've heard. I think they were shared by Albert's nieces, who are 32 00:02:35.680 --> 00:02:39.039 the surviving daughters of Albert's brother, But they don't really have any context to 33 00:02:39.120 --> 00:02:43.280 it because they heard these stories when they were little kids, and all the 34 00:02:43.280 --> 00:02:46.840 people who would have shared these rumors about Albert being killed are now deceased, 35 00:02:46.879 --> 00:02:50.120 so we don't know where they come from, what the context is to all 36 00:02:50.199 --> 00:02:53.280 this. But apparently there might have been some people in the family who felt 37 00:02:53.319 --> 00:02:57.680 that Albert was murdered, but they don't really have any art evidence. So 38 00:02:57.919 --> 00:03:02.439 were they telling this story like somebody within the family murdered Albert or like an 39 00:03:02.479 --> 00:03:07.639 acquaintance murdered him. Was there no details on who this person might have been 40 00:03:07.680 --> 00:03:12.759 and how this family might have got this information? Not really no, Like 41 00:03:12.800 --> 00:03:15.120 this is being provided by his nieces who would have been really, really young 42 00:03:15.159 --> 00:03:19.719 when they heard them. And I'm guessing that whoever shared these stories did not 43 00:03:20.159 --> 00:03:23.719 provide much context or and because so much time has passed, they may not 44 00:03:23.800 --> 00:03:27.400 even remember the details all that well. But they just said, when we 45 00:03:27.439 --> 00:03:30.960 grew up, we heard all these rumors about our uncle Albert and how he 46 00:03:30.080 --> 00:03:35.520 died, but we don't have anything substantial. And of course their father, 47 00:03:35.639 --> 00:03:38.159 Albert's brother George, has since passed away, so they can't question him to 48 00:03:38.400 --> 00:03:43.080 find out where he might have heard this. I've got to wonder if it's 49 00:03:43.159 --> 00:03:47.520 rooted in some type of truth, because how would they have that information. 50 00:03:47.599 --> 00:03:53.599 There's a lot of specificity with he was murdered and wrapped up in a rug 51 00:03:53.680 --> 00:03:58.479 and put on somebody's porch. Said, yeah, yeah, very specific, 52 00:03:59.280 --> 00:04:03.240 Yeah, very weird. And another detail about Albert is that he was briefly 53 00:04:03.280 --> 00:04:08.759 married in nineteen fifty nine, and he was and I think the marriage lasted 54 00:04:08.879 --> 00:04:13.719 only fourteen months before the divorced. But Albert also had a daughter at one 55 00:04:13.759 --> 00:04:15.839 point. I'm not sure if it was with the same woman he was married 56 00:04:15.839 --> 00:04:19.480 to or if it was a completely different woman. But this daughter was put 57 00:04:19.519 --> 00:04:25.560 up for adoption and Adam wound up tracking her down because of DNA testing and 58 00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:28.560 stuff, and I think he reached out to her on Facebook or something and 59 00:04:28.600 --> 00:04:31.279 then finally spoke to her, and she had no idea that she had a 60 00:04:31.319 --> 00:04:35.680 father who had gone missing during the nineteen sixties and a half now been identified 61 00:04:35.759 --> 00:04:40.279 as a Jane Doe slash John Doe. So needless to say, she was 62 00:04:40.360 --> 00:04:45.519 quite shocked when she learned this news. I can't even imagine having somebody reach 63 00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:49.240 out and now you're going down the rabbit hole trying to find all this information 64 00:04:49.399 --> 00:04:55.639 out. And also you've got this whole other family that you maybe didn't have 65 00:04:55.680 --> 00:05:01.600 access to prior. So I think it's both upset, but it's also going 66 00:05:01.639 --> 00:05:04.759 to be really interesting, and you've got the potential to make a lot of 67 00:05:04.800 --> 00:05:10.959 connections and feel a sense of closeness with people who share your DNA. Yeah, 68 00:05:11.000 --> 00:05:14.839 that always happens. I've heard stories about people who have been adopted where 69 00:05:14.839 --> 00:05:17.879 they've done DNA testing when they're adults to find out who their biological parent is. 70 00:05:17.959 --> 00:05:23.439 And have you heard of William Bradford Bishop, Yes, the family Annihilator. 71 00:05:23.439 --> 00:05:26.319 Well, a couple of years ago a woman did a DNA test and 72 00:05:26.360 --> 00:05:30.079 found out he was her biological father because he had had an affair with her 73 00:05:30.120 --> 00:05:33.160 mother while he was in college. And she had no idea that one of 74 00:05:33.199 --> 00:05:39.639 the most famous wanted family annihilators of all time was her biological father. Oh 75 00:05:39.680 --> 00:05:46.279 my god, that had to have been a very complex emotional reaction because you're 76 00:05:46.519 --> 00:05:49.360 excited to find out who this person is and find out everything that you can 77 00:05:49.360 --> 00:05:55.439 find out about them, and then to know that your father likely did this 78 00:05:55.839 --> 00:06:00.639 and he's never been found. I would feel some type of way about that 79 00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:03.399 exactly. Sometimes just say maybe I shouldn't have submitted the DNA, Maybe I 80 00:06:03.480 --> 00:06:08.240 was better off not knowing. Yeah, yeah, I don't know how I 81 00:06:08.279 --> 00:06:11.399 would reconcile that. I would feel like maybe I would want to put it 82 00:06:11.439 --> 00:06:15.639 back in Pandora's box. So as if Albert's story isn't weird enough, it's 83 00:06:15.680 --> 00:06:19.360 an even bigger rabbit hole now because it turned out that Albert had a sister 84 00:06:19.519 --> 00:06:25.360 named Clara, who went missing sometime between nineteen fifty and nineteen fifty two, 85 00:06:26.199 --> 00:06:29.279 when she would have been in her early twenties, And of course there's no 86 00:06:29.399 --> 00:06:32.279 record of her ever having been reported missing or any record of her death. 87 00:06:32.879 --> 00:06:38.600 And we have a lot of like third hand information being shared by some people 88 00:06:38.600 --> 00:06:42.319 who were children at the time. These are Albert's nieces. They said they 89 00:06:42.399 --> 00:06:46.879 also heard weird stories about the aunt Clara, how apparently her mother had sold 90 00:06:46.879 --> 00:06:51.720 her to a German Man when she was a teenager. And it does turn 91 00:06:51.759 --> 00:06:57.720 out that she was married to a German Man named Chester Kaprowski, and they 92 00:06:57.720 --> 00:07:00.639 had a pair of children and a pair of after Clara went missing. Not 93 00:07:00.800 --> 00:07:05.480 long afterwards, Chester got remarried to another woman, so you can kind of 94 00:07:05.480 --> 00:07:10.000 put two and two together. It's like, we don't have any specific details, 95 00:07:10.040 --> 00:07:13.399 but since we have these stories that Chester was abusive, it's looking more 96 00:07:13.439 --> 00:07:16.480 and more that he might have murdered Clara and gotten rid of her body and 97 00:07:16.519 --> 00:07:23.480 then got remarried. But unfortunately Chester and both of Chester and Clara's two children 98 00:07:23.519 --> 00:07:27.439 are now deceased, so no one can really ask them anything firsthand to find 99 00:07:27.439 --> 00:07:30.519 out what happened. So once again we have nothing more than hearsay from people 100 00:07:30.519 --> 00:07:35.560 who were just kids at the time, some juicy gossip going around in this 101 00:07:35.639 --> 00:07:40.439 family. I know, this is a weird family. I mean, I 102 00:07:40.480 --> 00:07:44.160 can't even imagine being like the child of one of these people and you're hearing 103 00:07:44.279 --> 00:07:46.839 all this stuff. But then it's like multiple generations, so it's like a 104 00:07:46.920 --> 00:07:51.480 generational game of telephone. You wonder how many of the details are actually accurate 105 00:07:53.360 --> 00:07:56.680 exactly. Yeah, So it's kind of weird. You have two different siblings 106 00:07:56.680 --> 00:07:59.600 in the family that just went missing at different times, and one of them 107 00:07:59.720 --> 00:08:03.959 has found dead, and we have another one who was likely murdered during the 108 00:08:03.000 --> 00:08:07.920 nineteen fifties. So I really want to learn more about this family because it 109 00:08:07.959 --> 00:08:11.639 sounds like there was a very interesting family dynamic that we don't know about, 110 00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:15.160 because it sounds like a lot of their siblings were kind of non plus by 111 00:08:15.240 --> 00:08:20.279 the fact that their brother and sister just kind of disappeared and nobody bothered to 112 00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:26.519 perform an investigation, and their mother sold her. Yeah you're a German Man, 113 00:08:26.759 --> 00:08:30.480 like ooh, I know. So, I mean she was married to 114 00:08:30.519 --> 00:08:33.879 a German Man, so I'm guessing that is what happened. But it's kind 115 00:08:33.879 --> 00:08:37.679 of crazy that the family would just share that information with these little children and 116 00:08:37.679 --> 00:08:39.919 stuff that, Hey, your grandmother likes to sell her own daughter, Like, 117 00:08:41.000 --> 00:08:45.480 what's going on here? Yeah, maybe they didn't feel too warmly towards 118 00:08:45.480 --> 00:08:48.600 her. I'm just going to take a shot in the dark if you're going 119 00:08:48.639 --> 00:08:52.440 to sell your children, I mean, unless it was out of a sense 120 00:08:52.480 --> 00:09:00.000 of desperation, and this is some weird Dowry situation. I don't know exactly 121 00:09:00.080 --> 00:09:03.559 the way it worked out, but it doesn't sound like a very happy situation, 122 00:09:03.799 --> 00:09:07.480 especially since he would likely be the prime suspect if she did go missing. 123 00:09:09.080 --> 00:09:13.720 So just not a good situation all around, definitely, And it is 124 00:09:13.759 --> 00:09:16.840 incredible to think that we would have never heard of Albert or Clara if they 125 00:09:16.840 --> 00:09:22.039 had not launched this investigation into Mary Jane van Gilder's disappearance. So that's what's 126 00:09:22.080 --> 00:09:26.879 great about this whole thing is that because they launched a completely unrelated missing person's 127 00:09:26.919 --> 00:09:33.639 investigation and decided to exhum like a Jane Doe who turned out to be a 128 00:09:33.720 --> 00:09:37.440 John Doe, we learned about two completely different missing persons who had been completely 129 00:09:37.480 --> 00:09:41.360 lost to history. And that was the bright side here is that if it 130 00:09:41.399 --> 00:09:46.679 wasn't for Adam Turner, we would never have heard the name Albert Alan Frost. 131 00:09:46.120 --> 00:09:52.039 But at least now he's been got his legacy restored, and they were 132 00:09:52.080 --> 00:09:56.279 able to dig up an old high school yearbook photograph of him and spread it 133 00:09:56.320 --> 00:09:58.720 around in all the newspapers, and now everyone knows that Albert it was a 134 00:09:58.720 --> 00:10:03.960 person and he deserved to be remembered, and his legacy has finally been restored, 135 00:10:05.440 --> 00:10:09.240 And we don't know yet what's going to happen in the investigations. I'm 136 00:10:09.240 --> 00:10:11.320 sure they're going to try to figure out what happened to Clara and try to 137 00:10:11.320 --> 00:10:16.440 figure out if Albert was the victim of a homicide. But at the very 138 00:10:16.519 --> 00:10:20.360 least we now have some sort of resolution in this case, and we know 139 00:10:20.440 --> 00:10:24.799 that at least Albert's surviving loved ones know what happened to him. This case 140 00:10:24.879 --> 00:10:31.159 is crazy just to think that the primary missing person starts out being Mary Jane, 141 00:10:31.679 --> 00:10:35.799 and then we've got these tertiary missing people who just kind of pop up 142 00:10:35.799 --> 00:10:39.759 out of nowhere, who are forgotten to the sands of time, and then 143 00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:45.039 all of a sudden, it's like they're plucked from obscurity out of the ground. 144 00:10:45.440 --> 00:10:50.080 Not Clara, but Albert, and everyone thinking that this is a woman 145 00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:54.000 who's given birth and now he has his identity back and he's properly gendered, 146 00:10:54.399 --> 00:10:58.679 and now his family know, well, not what happened to him, but 147 00:10:58.799 --> 00:11:03.480 what became of him where he ended up. And then Clara's disappearance gets to 148 00:11:03.519 --> 00:11:07.879 be discussed, because I think just the simple act of discussing missing people, 149 00:11:09.559 --> 00:11:13.399 not having them be forgotten, I think is something that we should never really 150 00:11:13.399 --> 00:11:18.600 take for granted, because to speak somebody's name is in remembrance of that person. 151 00:11:20.200 --> 00:11:22.600 So even if we don't know what happened to Clara, the fact that 152 00:11:22.600 --> 00:11:26.159 we're talking about her and the fact that we're remembering her in that way, 153 00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:31.000 I think it's something exactly. It sounds like she led a sad life if 154 00:11:31.039 --> 00:11:35.399 she was sold to an abusive man by her mother. But at least she 155 00:11:35.559 --> 00:11:39.799 is being talked about for the first time in nearly seventy years. But Yeah, 156 00:11:39.840 --> 00:11:43.120 Adam held a press conference in November of twenty twenty three, and I 157 00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:46.879 still remember getting a message for him saying, do you remember when I was 158 00:11:48.159 --> 00:11:52.559 exhuming a Jane Doe in the Mary Jane van Gilder case. Well, I've 159 00:11:52.559 --> 00:11:54.759 got some big news about that. I can't tell you about it, but 160 00:11:54.840 --> 00:11:58.480 I'm in a hole of press conference and he had actually invited me, And 161 00:11:58.600 --> 00:12:01.840 if I didn't have another job, I might have made the drive to Shelby, 162 00:12:01.840 --> 00:12:03.399 Ohio to be there. But it was kind of cool to be in 163 00:12:03.440 --> 00:12:05.799 the loop. But after he told me about this, and he says, 164 00:12:05.799 --> 00:12:09.399 I've got some other big news. I've solved the Mary Jane van Gilder case. 165 00:12:09.440 --> 00:12:13.000 And I'm like what, And he says, you can't tell anybody because 166 00:12:13.039 --> 00:12:16.120 I have to work out some details. But hopefully within the next few months 167 00:12:16.200 --> 00:12:20.919 I will hold a press conference and share all the details about that. So 168 00:12:20.960 --> 00:12:24.639 it was a pretty exciting time because I watched the live stream of the press 169 00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:28.840 conference about the announcement about the identification of Albert, and near the end he 170 00:12:28.919 --> 00:12:31.720 was saying, well, we still don't have answers about Mary Jane's case, 171 00:12:31.720 --> 00:12:33.879 And I'm thinking to myself, Oh, yes, you do, and we're 172 00:12:33.919 --> 00:12:39.519 going to find out soon. And thankfully, in February of twenty twenty four, 173 00:12:39.600 --> 00:12:41.679 he finally went public for it and held a press conference in which he 174 00:12:41.759 --> 00:12:48.000 revealed the truth about what happened to Mary Jane. Thank god for Adam Turner 175 00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:52.639 and his perseverance, because to tackle a missing person's case like this, the 176 00:12:52.679 --> 00:12:58.039 probability of getting a resolution and solving it is pretty low. But the fact 177 00:12:58.080 --> 00:13:03.679 that he has is kind of noble pursuit where he really wants to give people 178 00:13:03.720 --> 00:13:07.399 back their identities, and he's attracted to these cases where people have been lost 179 00:13:07.799 --> 00:13:13.240 in the shuffle because police departments will pursue newer cases typically, and so people 180 00:13:13.240 --> 00:13:18.759 that have been missing or murdered and nobody knows who they are. Well, 181 00:13:18.919 --> 00:13:22.200 who's going to give them their name back? At least we know that Adam 182 00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:24.879 Turner's on the case and he solved this one, so good for him. 183 00:13:26.120 --> 00:13:31.159 It's great to hear that investigators are really doing great police work. Oh, 184 00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:35.440 definitely. And the press conference where they announced the identification of albert Police Chief 185 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:39.639 Lance Combs went to the podium and he actually gave a message to the camera 186 00:13:39.759 --> 00:13:43.360 saying, if you're a criminal, don't commit a crime in Shelby, Ohio, 187 00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:48.720 because Adam Turner will find you. I love that. So it was 188 00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:52.639 kind of crazy because they announced the identification of Mary Jane I think the same 189 00:13:52.679 --> 00:13:56.399 week as my podcast eight year anniversary, so it was kind of a momentous 190 00:13:56.440 --> 00:14:00.919 occasion. And on a side note, it was on the exact date of 191 00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:05.960 my seven year anniversary in twenty twenty three when they salved another very old case 192 00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:09.720 that I had covered on the podcast, and that was the abduction of Mary 193 00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:15.000 Agnes Moroni, a two year old girl who was abducted from her family in 194 00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:20.600 Chicago in nineteen thirty. That is still officially the oldest case on the Trailmen 195 00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:22.919 Called, which went solved, but it was another one where they signed a 196 00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:26.960 detective to the case a few years ago when it was a daunting task, 197 00:14:26.039 --> 00:14:31.360 but he used DNA genetic genealogy and he found out that Mary Agnes Moroni was 198 00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:35.840 actually a woman who died in two thousand and one while living under a different 199 00:14:35.879 --> 00:14:41.240 identity. She was probably abducted, raised under a false identity, and lived 200 00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:46.639 her entire life without knowing she was an abducted child and had like children and 201 00:14:46.679 --> 00:14:48.879 grandchildren of her own before she passed away. And it's like, wow, 202 00:14:50.200 --> 00:14:52.799 because of DNA they were able to solve a missing children's case that was nearly 203 00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:58.919 a century old, Like do you think that in nineteen thirties case? I 204 00:14:58.960 --> 00:15:03.080 mean, it's nice to that she lived a full life and that she wasn't 205 00:15:03.159 --> 00:15:07.639 deceased or killed shortly thereafter after she was abducted. But it's really sad to 206 00:15:07.679 --> 00:15:13.480 think that somebody took it upon themselves to steal a child, either because somebody 207 00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:16.080 else wanted the child or they themselves wanted the child. I mean, we 208 00:15:16.120 --> 00:15:20.799 don't know the full scenario, but to rob a family of their baby girl 209 00:15:22.440 --> 00:15:26.639 is just really sad. Oh, definitely. And the circumstances of that is 210 00:15:26.679 --> 00:15:30.559 that she was abducted by a woman pretending to be a social worker using a 211 00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:35.799 fake name, and because pretty much everyone from her immediate family has passed away, 212 00:15:35.879 --> 00:15:39.440 we don't know if this woman was the person who raised Mary Agnes under 213 00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:43.039 her false identity, or if it was just someone in a black market adoption 214 00:15:43.159 --> 00:15:48.000 who could have sold the child to a family who was completely oblivious that she 215 00:15:48.039 --> 00:15:52.080 had been abducted. So we'll probably never know the full truth about what happened 216 00:15:52.120 --> 00:15:54.360 here, but at least we have a resolution in this case, and Mary 217 00:15:54.399 --> 00:16:00.559 Agnes's descendants know what happened to her. So I mentioned earlier that the key 218 00:16:00.600 --> 00:16:04.159 to finding out what happened to Mary Jane happened to be her civilian personnel file 219 00:16:04.200 --> 00:16:08.440 from her time in the military at the Shelby Army Air Force Depot. And 220 00:16:08.559 --> 00:16:14.080 it was actually a civilian sleuth, as Adam classified it, who provided the 221 00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:18.039 clue which led to this case being solved. And when Adam gave his press 222 00:16:18.039 --> 00:16:21.360 conference, he wanted to give full credit to this person, but they preferred 223 00:16:21.399 --> 00:16:25.440 to remain anonymous, and this person privately emailed me, so I know who 224 00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:29.120 they are, but I just find that incredible that they helped solve a cold 225 00:16:29.159 --> 00:16:32.679 case that was over seventy five years old. But they don't want anyone to 226 00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:34.679 know who they are. It sounds like they're a very modest person who just 227 00:16:34.759 --> 00:16:40.279 doesn't want the credit. Well, shout out to that super sleuth whoever they 228 00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:44.759 are. Yeah, exactly, they did an amazing thing. But what was 229 00:16:44.799 --> 00:16:48.039 great is that when Adam obtained the military personnel file, he decided to post 230 00:16:48.039 --> 00:16:52.200 it publicly and he thought, well, I'll just give the general public a 231 00:16:52.279 --> 00:16:56.279 chance to read it, because maybe they'll uncover a key piece of information that 232 00:16:56.360 --> 00:16:59.720 I missed that I did not see the significance of, and it will help 233 00:16:59.759 --> 00:17:03.079 pay the way for this case being solved. And that's exactly what happened, 234 00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:08.759 because this anonymous luth looked at her personnel file and saw the name Percy Lee 235 00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:14.400 Sebron, who had actually been Mary Jane's predecessor. He had been the previous 236 00:17:14.640 --> 00:17:18.480 high lift fork operator before she got the job, and apparently helped trainer to 237 00:17:18.519 --> 00:17:22.920 get the new position. And we're thinking about that, this is nineteen forty 238 00:17:22.920 --> 00:17:26.039 five. It seems kind of unusual that a man would be willing to give 239 00:17:26.119 --> 00:17:30.720 up a position like that to a woman, So maybe we should look into 240 00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:33.480 this name, see if we can find anything. Well. Adam then looked 241 00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:40.000 at Percy Lee Severn's name at findegrave dot Com and he found out that he 242 00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:42.759 had died in Kansas City in April of nineteen sixty nine at the age of 243 00:17:42.759 --> 00:17:45.400 forty nine. And it turned out he had been run over by a train, 244 00:17:45.640 --> 00:17:51.640 which is an awful way to go. But what Adam found particularly interesting 245 00:17:51.720 --> 00:17:53.960 is that, I'm sure you know that find a Grave each page has links 246 00:17:55.000 --> 00:18:00.720 to relatives of each deceased person, and he found a page for Per' wife 247 00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:03.920 named Mary j. Sebron. Then he goes to her page and he sees 248 00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:08.680 her birth date November the nineteenth, nineteen eleven, and he realizes that's Mary 249 00:18:08.759 --> 00:18:11.720 Jane Van Gilder's birth date. So you can kind of see where this is 250 00:18:11.759 --> 00:18:18.680 about to go. Wow, Okay, so this has really taking a different 251 00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:22.839 turn. Yeah, And what was crazy is that Adam had already gone to 252 00:18:22.880 --> 00:18:27.559 find Grave like he had pretty much put together this huge list of names of 253 00:18:27.680 --> 00:18:33.039 people who had graves where their birth date was November the nineteenth, nineteen eleven, 254 00:18:33.119 --> 00:18:34.519 and he said, I'm just gonna kind of, if I have time, 255 00:18:34.599 --> 00:18:38.319 gradually check through these one by one to find out like if any of 256 00:18:38.359 --> 00:18:42.720 them look like they might have a connection to Mary Jane van Gilder, And 257 00:18:42.839 --> 00:18:47.400 he did have Mary Sebron's name on his list, but he just hadn't gotten 258 00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:51.640 to it yet. But this lead with Percy Sebron allowed him to fast track 259 00:18:51.720 --> 00:18:55.240 it, so he looked at the grave site. He found out that Mary 260 00:18:55.279 --> 00:18:59.960 Sebron died in Arkansas on May the thirty first, nineteen ninety at the age 261 00:19:00.119 --> 00:19:03.960 of seventy nine, and that Mary and Percy were both buried at the New 262 00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:08.920 Forest Cemetery in Louisiana, which happened to be Percy's home state. And what 263 00:19:10.039 --> 00:19:12.759 was even more interesting is that there was a fine a grave profile page for 264 00:19:14.200 --> 00:19:18.559 Percy and Mary's children, and her first child, named Percy Sebrand Junior, 265 00:19:18.759 --> 00:19:23.400 was born in Louisiana on December the ninth, nineteen forty five. And you 266 00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:29.440 kind of realize, if you remember Mary's Mary Jane's personnel file where she decided 267 00:19:29.480 --> 00:19:33.599 to quit in March of nineteen forty five for added household duties, and you 268 00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:38.759 kind of do the math and you realize Percy Junior was born about nine months 269 00:19:38.799 --> 00:19:44.400 after she quit. And then they realized that she also was asking, like 270 00:19:44.440 --> 00:19:48.279 her daughter Anime, for the war bonds back because she might have wanted money. 271 00:19:48.799 --> 00:19:52.680 And she also happened to ask James for a divorce in February of nineteen 272 00:19:52.759 --> 00:19:56.680 forty five. So on the surface, it's kind of looking like perhaps Mary 273 00:19:56.759 --> 00:20:02.039 Jane started a relationship with Percy Sebryn became regnant and that's why she quit her 274 00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:06.359 job and left the area. Well, this is all making sense now, 275 00:20:06.599 --> 00:20:08.960 all of it, except for the fact that she dropped off the face of 276 00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:12.720 the earth and stopped talking to her children. Yes, that is the big 277 00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:17.960 mystery here that we will probably never know the answer to. But Adam had 278 00:20:17.960 --> 00:20:21.839 a good punch now, But he just needed evidence, And of course it 279 00:20:21.880 --> 00:20:26.480 turned out that both of Percy and Mary's children had passed away, but Percy 280 00:20:26.559 --> 00:20:30.920 Junior had four children of his own, So Adam decided to contact one of 281 00:20:30.920 --> 00:20:34.759 his daughters on Facebook, who was able to provide some backstory about being raised 282 00:20:34.799 --> 00:20:41.160 by Percy Jr. And her grandparents, and of course she had fond memories 283 00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:44.720 of her grandmother Mary's. They said that they spent the most of their lives 284 00:20:44.759 --> 00:20:48.440 living in Arkansas, and she described Mary Jane as a very amazing grandmother, 285 00:20:48.680 --> 00:20:52.920 very loving, but she was also apparently very secretive about her life, and 286 00:20:53.559 --> 00:20:57.759 apparently her past was just one of those topics that the family never discussed. 287 00:20:59.319 --> 00:21:03.319 And when Mary Shane was dying of cancer in nineteen ninety, she apparently told 288 00:21:03.319 --> 00:21:07.160 one of her granddaughters quote that there was something she couldn't tell her and that 289 00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:11.039 she could never find out. Wow, So it's got to be that she 290 00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:15.720 had this whole other life before. And I could see maybe at the time, 291 00:21:15.400 --> 00:21:19.599 to keep in contact with your children and to like acknowledge that you have 292 00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:26.079 this whole other life might be something where people would impart judgment upon you. 293 00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:30.640 So her motivations might have been different than like motivations that people would have today. 294 00:21:32.319 --> 00:21:36.160 So I definitely don't want to think I don't want anyone to think that 295 00:21:36.200 --> 00:21:38.240 I'm coming from a place of judging her when I say that, like why 296 00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:41.960 did she go this log without talking to her children? Because I think that 297 00:21:42.920 --> 00:21:48.119 the motivation could be manyfold here. It's difficult to leave a relationship that was 298 00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:52.039 contentious, she didn't have custody, and then to start a new life. 299 00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:55.680 It's sort of like, Okay, well, these are our children. Maybe 300 00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:59.440 he doesn't want anything to do with me having other children. We don't know 301 00:21:59.480 --> 00:22:03.119 the dynamic of the relationship and how he felt, and if he even knew 302 00:22:03.480 --> 00:22:07.640 that she had other children. We don't know. Yeah, we don't know. 303 00:22:07.839 --> 00:22:11.799 Like because Percy Senior has passed away, we will probably never find out 304 00:22:11.839 --> 00:22:15.599 if he knew that she had a different husband and a different bunch of different 305 00:22:15.640 --> 00:22:18.200 children in another state. Probably knew she could have lived in Ohio her entire 306 00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:22.200 life. He may not have known she was even from West Virginia. But 307 00:22:22.599 --> 00:22:29.599 I know that Adam finally obtained some photographs of Mary from her younger Mary Sebryn, 308 00:22:29.640 --> 00:22:33.359 from her younger years and before she passed away. And I remember watching 309 00:22:33.400 --> 00:22:37.839 the live stream of the press conference while this was going on. Thankfully it 310 00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:40.400 was a Monday when I was working from home, so I didn't have to 311 00:22:40.440 --> 00:22:44.039 worry about stuff on my other job. But I'm watching this and he puts 312 00:22:44.119 --> 00:22:47.880 up he's doing a PowerPoint presentation and he does a side by side comparison with 313 00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:52.160 a photograph of Mary Jane and Mary Sebrin when she's in her seventies, like 314 00:22:52.200 --> 00:22:55.799 in the nineteen eighties, where she looks really old, and I'm looking at 315 00:22:55.839 --> 00:22:57.640 that I'm like, I got chills. I was like, that is definitely 316 00:22:57.640 --> 00:23:03.920 the same person, Mary, Mary Jane Van Guilder and Mary Jane Sebrn have 317 00:23:03.039 --> 00:23:07.359 to be one and the same. And sure enough, Adam soon announced that 318 00:23:07.400 --> 00:23:11.880 he was able to take DNA from one of Mary Jane Sebrn's granddaughters, made 319 00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:15.559 a comparison with DNA from some of Mary Jane Van gilder surviving relatives, and 320 00:23:15.680 --> 00:23:19.680 this proved beyond a shadow of the doubt that Mary Jane Sebron was Mary Jane 321 00:23:19.759 --> 00:23:26.480 Van Guilder. Wow, Like, what a crazy ride that is. I 322 00:23:26.519 --> 00:23:32.200 mean, Adam Turner must have been beyond thrilled to be able to let all 323 00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:37.680 of these family members know. And also these are family members that don't know 324 00:23:37.720 --> 00:23:40.880 that they brought other relatives out there to be able to let them know. 325 00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:44.480 Hey, like, if you want to be in contact with these people who 326 00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:47.920 you know are your cousins or distant you know, second cousins, whatever they 327 00:23:47.960 --> 00:23:52.440 are, you have the ability to do so. And I think making those 328 00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:57.279 connections and being able to commiserate over the shared story and the interesting family history 329 00:23:57.400 --> 00:24:00.920 is really cool. Yeah, we us sound like the Sebron family and the 330 00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:07.160 Van Gilder family have formed a close relationship because obviously they were both shell shocked, 331 00:24:07.240 --> 00:24:11.599 and because, like the Seburns have said that the grandmother, we knew 332 00:24:11.640 --> 00:24:14.920 she was a very loving person, Like we had no idea that she had 333 00:24:14.920 --> 00:24:18.279 this past life. So when you learn this information that she abandoned her original 334 00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:22.119 family, you're just taken by complete surprise, just thinking that she does not 335 00:24:22.279 --> 00:24:27.599 seem like someone who would have been capable about that. And Mary Jane's granddaughter, 336 00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:32.400 Mindy Wilson, who started this thing in the first place, who contacted 337 00:24:32.440 --> 00:24:37.960 all these podcasts and YouTube shows in order to get exposure for her grandmother's case. 338 00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:41.839 She did a very tearful speech at the press conference saying that we have 339 00:24:41.880 --> 00:24:45.200 a lot of mixed emotions because we're very glad to have answers, but at 340 00:24:45.240 --> 00:24:48.559 the same time, we kind of have to live with the knowledge that she 341 00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:52.599 decided to walk away from her family and break off all contact with us for 342 00:24:52.720 --> 00:24:56.359 the last forty five years of her life, which is just a very weird 343 00:24:56.400 --> 00:25:00.519 feeling. And she still does have surviving children, some of them have passed 344 00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:04.640 away. I know that she had a daughter named Martha who died in February 345 00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:08.519 or sorry. I think it was just a few weeks before the press conference, 346 00:25:08.559 --> 00:25:12.640 though Adam was able to tell her privately that they had found her mother. 347 00:25:14.200 --> 00:25:17.359 But I know that it just must be a weird feeling knowing that this 348 00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:19.799 woman that you thought had loved you just decided to take off and cut off 349 00:25:19.839 --> 00:25:26.000 all contact with you and start a new life. I can't imagine how deep 350 00:25:26.079 --> 00:25:30.240 those wounds would go and how it would feel to find out that information. 351 00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:36.799 I think, like you said, it's incredibly complex. Now, some Misty 352 00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:41.720 or Mindy a Mindy. Actually she had two granddaughters, Mindy and Misty, 353 00:25:41.799 --> 00:25:45.240 but Mindy was the one who spoke at the press conference. Okay, okay, 354 00:25:45.240 --> 00:25:47.359 okay. I was like, maybe I've been getting it wrong with the 355 00:25:47.400 --> 00:25:49.480 Misty earlier, but this makes sense. There's a Mindy and a Misty. 356 00:25:51.079 --> 00:25:53.920 Yeah. I can't imagine how they would feel. I personally would have a 357 00:25:53.920 --> 00:25:57.759 hard time with that, knowing that there's this family member, just because you 358 00:25:57.759 --> 00:26:03.880 don't have the answers to why. But I am sure given the time period, 359 00:26:03.720 --> 00:26:08.279 you can understand why somebody might make those choices, particularly a woman. 360 00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:14.279 So I'm sure that they are operating from a place of empathy and trying to 361 00:26:14.359 --> 00:26:18.319 understand, but also trying to navigate their own feelings of a maybe not abandonment 362 00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:26.400 of them specifically, but by association right their parents. So it's hard. 363 00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:30.880 It's yeah, I'm sure it had to be so emotional for them exactly, 364 00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:33.599 But I think you're right there that you just have to look at the time 365 00:26:33.640 --> 00:26:37.039 period, because I'm sure I'm guessing Mary Jane did love her children, but 366 00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:41.079 she was probably figuring I'm a woman and my husband's a man, and even 367 00:26:41.079 --> 00:26:45.400 though he has alcohol problems and he's abusive, if we go to court over 368 00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:48.359 this, I think there's a good chance he's going to get custody of the 369 00:26:48.440 --> 00:26:52.160 children no matter what. So she might have felt I'm pretty much in a 370 00:26:52.200 --> 00:26:53.759 losing battle. If I fight for custody, I'm not going to win. 371 00:26:53.839 --> 00:26:57.000 But here, I've got a new life in Ohio. I found a man 372 00:26:57.119 --> 00:27:00.680 that I love and I'm going to have his child, so it's probably better 373 00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:06.000 that I just take off and start over. But I guess people are wondering, 374 00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:08.359 like, why in the forty five years she just didn't attempt to reach 375 00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:11.039 out to her children at all, at least to let them know she was 376 00:27:11.079 --> 00:27:15.319 alive and say say that while I can't come and have contact with you, 377 00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:18.920 but I want you to at least know that I'm not dead. But it 378 00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:21.759 just must have been a hard thing, a bunch of conflicting feelings where she 379 00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:26.720 felt that there'll be a bunch of shame on me if I come forward maybe 380 00:27:26.759 --> 00:27:30.359 and just reveal that I ran off. It's literally what I was going to 381 00:27:30.359 --> 00:27:36.079 say. The amount of shame attached to abandoning your children, to not reaching 382 00:27:36.119 --> 00:27:40.519 out, I think would increase exponentially with every year that passed. I'm sure 383 00:27:40.599 --> 00:27:45.160 that she felt that very heavily and it weighed upon her. So to not 384 00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:48.640 reach out after so many years doesn't surprise me. Because the more years that 385 00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:52.640 go by, the worse you're going to feel about the decisions that you've made, 386 00:27:52.119 --> 00:27:57.279 and it's going to be difficult to hear the negative ramifications and the way 387 00:27:57.319 --> 00:28:03.240 you've adversely affected people emotionally from your choices. It can be a big burden, 388 00:28:03.240 --> 00:28:06.279 and it can be why a lot of people don't reach out to family 389 00:28:06.440 --> 00:28:10.079 after a lot of time has passed and they haven't been in contact. So 390 00:28:10.200 --> 00:28:14.480 I can kind of understand where she's coming from there, But being the family 391 00:28:14.519 --> 00:28:18.200 who isn't getting that reassurance that she's alive. It had to have felt awful. 392 00:28:18.559 --> 00:28:22.200 Oh I can imagine. Yeah, just very mixed feelings. But I 393 00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:26.039 mean, it was a much easier to do this sort of thing back in 394 00:28:26.039 --> 00:28:30.039 the nineteen forties, but this thing still happens today. I'm sure we've discussed 395 00:28:30.039 --> 00:28:33.279 this case, the disappearance of Robert Hoagland. Oh yeah, yeah, And 396 00:28:33.319 --> 00:28:38.200 he's one who went missing in twenty thirteen and then in late twenty twenty he 397 00:28:38.319 --> 00:28:41.839 was found to be living under a new identity in a different state before he 398 00:28:41.920 --> 00:28:45.720 died of natural causes. And you're thinking to yourself that it would be impossible 399 00:28:45.759 --> 00:28:49.200 to disappear and start a new life under a new identity in this day and 400 00:28:49.240 --> 00:28:53.279 age where everything's digital. But he somehow found a roommate to shack up with, 401 00:28:53.400 --> 00:28:56.480 so he didn't have to have any credit or any electronic ID. He 402 00:28:56.559 --> 00:29:00.839 pretty much spent his entire life like making cash from his job and paying his 403 00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:04.079 share of the rent in cash, so he was able to survive for nine 404 00:29:04.160 --> 00:29:08.400 years living under a false identity. And as you can imagine, his family 405 00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:11.240 had mixed feelings like, Okay, we're glad to find out what happened to 406 00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:15.440 him, But why did he just decide to take off and cut off all 407 00:29:15.519 --> 00:29:21.880 contact with us. To not have those answers would be really difficult because it's 408 00:29:22.039 --> 00:29:26.440 this big question mark, and then you start questioning, how did this person 409 00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:30.880 feel about me? Did they truly love me? Did our relationship ever mean 410 00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:34.240 anything? Because for them not to give you that reassurance and to just like 411 00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:37.440 them, like to just reach out and say I'm okay. You could write 412 00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:41.480 a letter from anywhere and just you know, postmarket from a place you're not 413 00:29:41.559 --> 00:29:47.920 from and just literally write I'm okay and just let them know. But to 414 00:29:48.079 --> 00:29:52.599 not do that, I I for family members, it has to be so 415 00:29:52.680 --> 00:29:55.960 hard. Well, with Robert Hogland, I guess an issue with that is 416 00:29:55.960 --> 00:29:59.599 that they wasted a lot of time and resources with the police investigation. But 417 00:29:59.640 --> 00:30:03.160 at least for Mary Jane's case, we know that didn't happen because there was 418 00:30:03.200 --> 00:30:06.960 no investigation when she originally disappeared. There was nothing they could really do, 419 00:30:07.640 --> 00:30:10.319 and there are still a lot of un answered questions about how she pulled this 420 00:30:10.440 --> 00:30:14.240 off. Because I know that when Adam acquired her personnel file, it listed 421 00:30:14.240 --> 00:30:18.279 her social Security number and he was willing to post it publicly. He said 422 00:30:18.279 --> 00:30:22.000 that there has not been any activity on her number since nineteen forty five, 423 00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:26.079 but we want to get it out there just in case it generates any leads. 424 00:30:26.359 --> 00:30:30.680 But he found out that when she became Mary Sebrin, she somehow generated 425 00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:33.400 an all new Social Security number for herself, which she lived under for the 426 00:30:33.400 --> 00:30:36.799 rest of her life. So we're probably never going to find out how she 427 00:30:37.039 --> 00:30:40.359 managed to obtain a new one like that. I don't think you well, 428 00:30:40.440 --> 00:30:42.440 nowadays, you can't just go out and get a new Social Security number, 429 00:30:42.480 --> 00:30:45.599 like what you get is what you get. But I guess back then it 430 00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:51.319 was easy to get like false identity documents or to change things like that. 431 00:30:51.440 --> 00:30:55.240 It's not nearly the process that it is these days. Well, we see 432 00:30:55.279 --> 00:30:59.680 in cases like Joseph Newton Chandler the Third where people will obtain like birth certificates 433 00:30:59.720 --> 00:31:03.599 and so security numbers of children who died like many years ago, and nobody 434 00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:07.880 checks that, so they're able to get away with it indefinitely until they pass 435 00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:11.880 away. But like you said, we still don't know the answers of how 436 00:31:11.960 --> 00:31:15.279 much her husband, Percy knew about her past, if she ever talked about 437 00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:18.759 it. But I guess the good news is that it sounds like both families 438 00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:22.920 are beginning to come to terms with it, and Mindy has said that she 439 00:31:22.960 --> 00:31:26.079 has already made the trip to a Louisiana in order to lay flowers on her 440 00:31:26.119 --> 00:31:30.920 grandmother's grave. I don't know if they'll make any attempt to move her body 441 00:31:30.960 --> 00:31:33.000 back to West Virginia or anything to be with her family, and they might 442 00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:37.839 feel that she's at peace being buried alongside her husband. But I guess the 443 00:31:37.839 --> 00:31:41.119 fact that she was willing to visit the grave in the first place probably shows 444 00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:45.559 that she's dealing with it, all right. I mean that's a hard one, 445 00:31:45.640 --> 00:31:48.920 right, Like do you really want to move the body of somebody who 446 00:31:49.039 --> 00:31:55.920 chose to have that be their resting place. Probably not, but to have 447 00:31:56.000 --> 00:32:00.880 the ability to be able to go there and maybe sort out some complex feelings 448 00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:05.640 that they have and to say some things that maybe they want to say, 449 00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:08.440 because, like you said, for the family, like for Misty, for 450 00:32:08.559 --> 00:32:13.599 Mindy, for all of them, and had to have been so difficult and 451 00:32:13.680 --> 00:32:17.319 just so many mixed emotions. It would feel like a gut punch just to 452 00:32:17.480 --> 00:32:21.880 know that our grandmother was out there, and like we never got to know 453 00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:24.920 her, but that was her choice, you know, Yeah, exactly. 454 00:32:25.039 --> 00:32:29.079 So, I mean, at least she was happy, because at least it 455 00:32:29.079 --> 00:32:31.519 doesn't sound like her existence with James, her marriage was that happy. But 456 00:32:31.599 --> 00:32:36.240 from what her grandchildren from the Sebran family have said, she did leave a 457 00:32:36.279 --> 00:32:38.519 happy life until she died and seemed to be in a loving marriage with loving 458 00:32:38.599 --> 00:32:43.960 children and grandchildren. So at least it was better for her. So, 459 00:32:44.200 --> 00:32:46.279 like I mentioned, I also got a shout out at the press conference. 460 00:32:46.319 --> 00:32:51.279 I know that Adam Turner wanted to list all the podcasts and YouTube shows who 461 00:32:51.359 --> 00:32:54.599 had covered the case. She gave a shout out to also Mike Morfford's podcast 462 00:32:54.680 --> 00:33:00.799 Missing Persons, which covered it, and the podcast Unfound Any great YouTube series 463 00:33:00.839 --> 00:33:04.720 called Mysterious West Virginia. Have you ever heard of that one? Yes? 464 00:33:05.480 --> 00:33:08.319 Do you remember Kayleia Leise who used to be on YouTube back in the day, 465 00:33:08.400 --> 00:33:15.519 Yeah, definitely. Yeah, she recommended I think Mysterious West Virginia when 466 00:33:15.680 --> 00:33:20.440 she stopped doing the YouTube series and I watched them. It's actually really good, 467 00:33:20.799 --> 00:33:22.240 it is. Yeah. I love the host Sean McCracken. He kind 468 00:33:22.240 --> 00:33:25.000 of has a Robert Stack look where he's wearing the trench coat and stuff when 469 00:33:25.000 --> 00:33:29.039 he's doing the host segments. But he did a lot of legwork on this 470 00:33:29.160 --> 00:33:34.279 because he found a lot of the old documentation about where Mary Jane lived during 471 00:33:34.319 --> 00:33:37.720 the nineteen forties in Shelby, Ohio. Like, he searched through the records 472 00:33:37.759 --> 00:33:40.680 and found a lot of interesting information, and I'm not sure this case would 473 00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:45.279 have been solved without him. And he was even the one who broadcast the 474 00:33:45.319 --> 00:33:46.920 live stream of the press conference, so I was able to watch it, 475 00:33:46.960 --> 00:33:52.039 so it was pretty cool. But that just just goes to show the power 476 00:33:52.079 --> 00:33:55.319 of true crime media where if you're independent, like the Trail Went Cold and 477 00:33:55.440 --> 00:34:00.519 Mysterious West Virginia, you can cover whatever cases you want. So I'm sure 478 00:34:00.519 --> 00:34:02.920 that a lot of like true crime TV shows, if you recommended doing a 479 00:34:02.920 --> 00:34:07.799 missing person's case from like nineteen forty five, you'd have a lot of middlemen 480 00:34:07.880 --> 00:34:09.320 and executives saying, oh, we don't want to do that. That's a 481 00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:13.480 case that's so old, it's a waste of time. But being an independent 482 00:34:13.519 --> 00:34:15.159 creator, you can show whatever you want. And it's just such a cool 483 00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:20.159 feeling when you can actually see it reach your resolution. It seems like it's 484 00:34:20.199 --> 00:34:22.920 happened a lot lately. We've seen a lot of cases closed I think with 485 00:34:23.079 --> 00:34:27.480 DNA, Like, what was it used to do all those lists versus articles? 486 00:34:27.559 --> 00:34:30.480 Yes, and like so many of them have come to a resolution now, 487 00:34:30.559 --> 00:34:35.760 which is so crazy. There's one list I did in twenty thirteen. 488 00:34:36.199 --> 00:34:39.639 Here are ten unidentified decedents, and nine of the ten victims on that list 489 00:34:39.639 --> 00:34:45.199 have since been identified these past ten years, which is incredible through DNA testing. 490 00:34:45.199 --> 00:34:49.159 I don't know, that's bananas, Like, just how far we've come 491 00:34:49.239 --> 00:34:52.880 with technology being able to give these people back their identities. I love that 492 00:34:53.360 --> 00:34:58.559 definitely. So yeah, this is definitely like one of the most amazing things 493 00:34:58.599 --> 00:35:00.960 I've experienced during my eight year run as a True Grime podcast to kind of 494 00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:06.760 witness such an old case get solved that I covered, which in case that 495 00:35:06.840 --> 00:35:09.960 nobody knew about it all until twenty eighteen, but now it's all over the 496 00:35:09.960 --> 00:35:14.440 internet and we've not only found out what happened to Mary Jane, but we 497 00:35:14.559 --> 00:35:19.400 provided closure to another family, that of Albert Alan Frost and restored his identity. 498 00:35:19.920 --> 00:35:22.400 And I'm thinking, even though it's going to be a daunting task to 499 00:35:22.440 --> 00:35:24.639 try to figure out if Albert was murdered, or try to figure out what 500 00:35:24.679 --> 00:35:29.559 happened to his sister Clara. But if anyone can solve those cases, it's 501 00:35:29.599 --> 00:35:34.400 Adam Turner because he takes it as a challenge and will not let the age 502 00:35:34.599 --> 00:35:40.039 or lack of evidence determ. He really is the unsung hero here. I'm 503 00:35:40.159 --> 00:35:45.800 just so impressed the veracity of his investigation and his ability to be humble at 504 00:35:45.800 --> 00:35:50.119 the same time and to release certain things and be like, Okay, well 505 00:35:50.480 --> 00:35:52.280 I couldn't get anything out of this, but I'm going to let the public 506 00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:55.360 take a crack at it and see if they come up with anything. I 507 00:35:55.360 --> 00:35:59.639 think it takes a truly great investigator to say, okay, like I can't 508 00:35:59.679 --> 00:36:02.880 do all of the things, but where I may lack, somebody else may 509 00:36:02.920 --> 00:36:07.800 have a strength and they're going to see something that I didn't see. So 510 00:36:07.360 --> 00:36:10.719 let's just do this collectively. And I think with the case this old, 511 00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:16.480 it's only going to help you. So Adam Turner, you're a hero theod 512 00:36:16.559 --> 00:36:20.320 way to go exactly if you're listening, Thanks a lot, Adam here. 513 00:36:20.440 --> 00:36:23.039 Yeah, and one more thing I wanted to mention is that there is also 514 00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:29.239 still yet another mystery within a mystery which is still unsolved because apparently Mary Jane 515 00:36:29.360 --> 00:36:34.039 had a sister named Rose, who also went missing sometime during the nineteen forties. 516 00:36:34.119 --> 00:36:37.559 But there's even less evidence to work with. All we really know is 517 00:36:37.599 --> 00:36:40.400 that she lived in Fairmount, West Virginia and had been married to a man 518 00:36:40.480 --> 00:36:45.800 named Harold Leeson. But at some point during the forties, Rose apparently left 519 00:36:45.800 --> 00:36:49.119 home, and no one knows what happens to her. And here is the 520 00:36:49.119 --> 00:36:52.760 one where all we really have to work with is a bunch of uncorroborated rumors 521 00:36:52.760 --> 00:36:57.679 and hearsay. But it's been reported that sometime during the nineteen sixties, one 522 00:36:57.679 --> 00:37:01.360 of Rose's sons received a letter from some sort of medical facility in New York 523 00:37:01.719 --> 00:37:07.039 which stated that Rose was currently residing there because she was sick, and he 524 00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:09.599 apparently told one of Mary Jane's children about this, But no one knows where 525 00:37:09.639 --> 00:37:15.039 the original letter is and the son is now deceased, so we have nothing 526 00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:19.039 more than like third hand information. And there's no official record of Rose being 527 00:37:19.079 --> 00:37:22.320 reported missing, and all her children are deceased as well, so that's pretty 528 00:37:22.360 --> 00:37:27.519 much all the information we have. But I'm thinking that if anyone can find 529 00:37:27.519 --> 00:37:31.719 out what happened to Rose, it's Adam Turner. Wow, this is such 530 00:37:31.760 --> 00:37:38.280 an interesting case with all these different siblings like Clara and Albert and Albert and 531 00:37:38.320 --> 00:37:45.239 then here we've got Mary Jane and Rose. Like all these families that have 532 00:37:45.280 --> 00:37:51.519 had to deal with multiple people within that family unit going missing. I can't 533 00:37:51.519 --> 00:37:53.679 even imagine. And to have two of them in the same case kind of 534 00:37:53.719 --> 00:37:59.320 interconnected in a weird way, is really blowing my mind. Yeah, I 535 00:37:59.360 --> 00:38:01.559 mean probably know, oh, Rose's situation may be the same where she just 536 00:38:01.599 --> 00:38:06.880 decided to break off all contact with her family and just went off somewhere and 537 00:38:07.039 --> 00:38:10.159 got married to another man and started a new family. And it's also possible 538 00:38:10.199 --> 00:38:14.320 she got sick and was put into some sort of facility, but we just 539 00:38:14.360 --> 00:38:17.199 don't know. But hopefully now that Mary Jane's case has solved, maybe someone 540 00:38:17.199 --> 00:38:21.440 will try to figure out what happened to Rose and give another resolution to this 541 00:38:21.559 --> 00:38:25.440 family. So yeah, that about wraps it up. Like I said, 542 00:38:25.519 --> 00:38:30.599 people should listen to. This case is kind of like a test how you 543 00:38:30.639 --> 00:38:34.199 should never worry about not covering a case because you feel it's too old, 544 00:38:34.280 --> 00:38:37.480 because you just never know who might be listening and who might have the right 545 00:38:37.559 --> 00:38:42.920 information to help bring this case to a resolution. So just a phenomenal experience, 546 00:38:42.920 --> 00:38:45.280 and I'm glad I got to share all the information about it with you. 547 00:38:45.239 --> 00:38:49.000 Well, thank you so much for telling me about this, because I 548 00:38:49.199 --> 00:38:53.599 heard just like small details on Crime Weekly, which is Derek and Stephanie's podcast, 549 00:38:53.760 --> 00:38:58.760 and then when you brought up Preble County, I was like, ooh, 550 00:38:58.960 --> 00:39:01.519 maybe this is the same case. And then when you went into the 551 00:39:01.559 --> 00:39:06.599 details and you're like, oh, it's a twofur with the body and all 552 00:39:06.679 --> 00:39:08.519 that, I'm like, oh, gotta be connected. And then when you 553 00:39:08.599 --> 00:39:13.280 said, oh, criminal coffee finance this, I was like, yes, 554 00:39:13.960 --> 00:39:16.400 this is the same case. So thank you so much for telling me about 555 00:39:16.400 --> 00:39:22.079 this. I'm so glad that Albert's family was able to find a resolution and 556 00:39:22.599 --> 00:39:25.000 that Mary Jane's family was as well. Yes, my pleasure. And it 557 00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:29.760 was great to see your live reaction because when I was watching the conference and 558 00:39:29.800 --> 00:39:32.440 heard about Mary Jane Sebrin having the same birth date and all that stuff, 559 00:39:32.440 --> 00:39:36.079 and I had the same reaction on your face that I saw with you, 560 00:39:36.119 --> 00:39:37.599 where you were just putting all the pieces together in your head and you're like, 561 00:39:37.599 --> 00:39:42.760 oh my god, this is the same person. Yes, I mean 562 00:39:42.960 --> 00:39:45.880 I'm so glad that she lived a long life and that it seemed like she 563 00:39:45.960 --> 00:39:50.920 was really happy. It's really complex for her family that didn't know where she 564 00:39:51.119 --> 00:39:54.719 was, that she cut off contact with What's a much better ending than a 565 00:39:54.760 --> 00:39:59.639 lot of the cases that we cover in which somebody was murdered and that's why 566 00:39:59.639 --> 00:40:02.280 they were in touch. So at least she had that. We know that 567 00:40:02.320 --> 00:40:07.320 she lived a long life, and there's something peaceful about that, rather than 568 00:40:07.320 --> 00:40:10.480 the open ended question that we often deal with with who murdered this person? 569 00:40:10.880 --> 00:40:14.599 Now we've got their identity, but who murdered them? But that just isn't 570 00:40:14.639 --> 00:40:17.480 the case here, So that is truly a happy ending. It is definitely 571 00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:21.960 a bittersweet ending, but still a happy ending. So I guess I'll save 572 00:40:22.039 --> 00:40:24.079 this left to say. Is I guess you could say the path did not 573 00:40:24.280 --> 00:40:30.679 go Chilli Robin? Do you want to tell us a little bit about the 574 00:40:30.679 --> 00:40:34.679 Trail Went Cold Patreon? Yes, the Trail Cold Patreon has been around for 575 00:40:34.760 --> 00:40:38.760 three years now, and we offer these standard bonus features like early ad free 576 00:40:38.760 --> 00:40:44.440 episodes, and I also send out stickers and signed thank you cards to anyone 577 00:40:44.440 --> 00:40:47.000 who signs up with us on Patreon. If you join our five dollars tier 578 00:40:47.360 --> 00:40:52.800 Tier two. We also offer monthly bonus episodes in which I talk about cases 579 00:40:52.840 --> 00:40:57.719 which are not featured on the Trail Went Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive 580 00:40:57.760 --> 00:41:00.159 to Patreon, and if you join our highest to your tier three, the 581 00:41:00.199 --> 00:41:05.920 ten dollars tier. One of the features we offer is a audio commentary track 582 00:41:05.960 --> 00:41:09.800 over classic episodes of Unsolved Mysteries, where you can download an audio file and 583 00:41:09.880 --> 00:41:15.519 then boot up the original Unsolved Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or YouTube and play 584 00:41:15.559 --> 00:41:20.440 it with my audio commentary playing in the background, where I just provide trivia 585 00:41:20.480 --> 00:41:24.000 and factoids about the cases featured in this episode. And incidentally, the very 586 00:41:24.039 --> 00:41:29.599 first episode that I did a commentary track over was the episode featuring this case. 587 00:41:29.639 --> 00:41:32.079 So if you want to download a commentary track in which I make more 588 00:41:32.119 --> 00:41:37.280 smart ass remarks about Jewel Kaylor, then be sure to join Tier three. 589 00:41:37.480 --> 00:41:39.119 So I want to let you know a little bit about the Jeweles and Nashty 590 00:41:39.199 --> 00:41:44.599 Patreons. So there's early ad free episodes of the Path Went Chili. We've 591 00:41:44.599 --> 00:41:46.920 got our Path Went Chili mini's, which are always over an hour, so 592 00:41:46.960 --> 00:41:51.119 they're not very many, but they're just too short to turn into a series 593 00:41:51.400 --> 00:41:54.239 and we're really enjoying doing those, so we hope you'll check out those patreons. 594 00:41:54.239 --> 00:41:58.239 We'll link them in the show notes. So I want to thank you 595 00:41:58.280 --> 00:42:00.639 all for listening, and any chance you have to share us on social media 596 00:42:00.679 --> 00:42:05.360 with a friend or to rate and review is greatly appreciated. You can email 597 00:42:05.440 --> 00:42:08.280 us at the Pathwentchili at gmail dot com. You can reach us on Twitter 598 00:42:08.360 --> 00:42:13.119 at the Pathwink. So until next time, be sure to bundle up because 599 00:42:13.199 --> 00:42:16.599 cold trails and chili pass call for warm clothing. Music by Paul Rich from 600 00:42:16.599 --> 00:42:19.360 the podcast Cold Callers Comedy