WEBVTT 1 00:00:11.599 --> 00:00:17.399 Hello everyone, and welcome to Talk Nerdy. Today is Monday, March twentieth, 2 00:00:17.519 --> 00:00:21.239 twenty twenty three, and I'm the host of the show Kara Santa Maria 3 00:00:21.600 --> 00:00:25.920 and I am just getting over COVID. I actually had COVID last week when 4 00:00:25.960 --> 00:00:34.880 I recorded the previous exercise episode, Slime with Susanne Wedlick, and you could 5 00:00:34.920 --> 00:00:39.079 probably hear it in my voice pretty badly. I also had it when I 6 00:00:39.079 --> 00:00:42.479 recorded this episode and the next one that comes out. Even though it's a 7 00:00:42.520 --> 00:00:45.759 short time, I happen to do a lot of podcast recordings. I'm on 8 00:00:45.799 --> 00:00:49.560 the tail end. I'm I'm now testing negative. I just still have a 9 00:00:49.560 --> 00:00:53.000 little bit of the sniffles, and so I apologize if my voice is maybe 10 00:00:53.039 --> 00:00:57.079 a little bit deeper and a little bit different than usual, But that would 11 00:00:57.119 --> 00:01:00.320 be why I've got a great episode for you this week. But before I 12 00:01:00.359 --> 00:01:04.239 dive into it, I do want to thank those of you who continue to 13 00:01:04.280 --> 00:01:10.280 make Talk Nerdy possible week after week. Remember Talk Nerdy is and will always 14 00:01:10.280 --> 00:01:12.519 be one hundred percent free to download, and that's because I rely on the 15 00:01:12.680 --> 00:01:19.879 incredible support of listeners just like you. This week's top patrons include Daniel Lange, 16 00:01:19.120 --> 00:01:23.879 David J. E. Smith, Mary Nieva, Brian Holden, David 17 00:01:23.920 --> 00:01:30.439 Compton, Gabrielle f Haremio, Joe Wilkinson, Pasquale Gelati, Rika Hagman and 18 00:01:30.680 --> 00:01:34.359 so many more. Thank you all so much, and if you're interested in 19 00:01:34.439 --> 00:01:38.879 pledging your support, all you've got to do is visit patreon dot com slash 20 00:01:38.920 --> 00:01:45.480 talk Nerdy. All right, so let's talk about this week's episode. I 21 00:01:45.560 --> 00:01:51.519 had the opportunity to chat with a fascinating woman. She is science and kind 22 00:01:51.560 --> 00:01:57.239 of natural history writer, tons of books and articles with specifically a focus on 23 00:01:57.280 --> 00:02:04.760 Australian nonfiction, and she's won a lot of awards as well. Her books 24 00:02:04.760 --> 00:02:09.680 have won the Victorian Premier's Literary Award for Nonfiction, the Federation of Australian Writers 25 00:02:09.719 --> 00:02:15.840 Award for Excellence in Nonfiction, a Whitley Award for Popular Zoology, and she's 26 00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:22.240 been shortlisted for the Children's Book Counsel of Australia and National Biography Awards and longlisted 27 00:02:22.280 --> 00:02:29.199 for the NIB Literary Award. She's got a new book called Kowala, A 28 00:02:29.360 --> 00:02:35.560 Natural History and an Uncertain Future. So yeah, we talk all about Kowala's 29 00:02:35.639 --> 00:02:42.960 today without any further ado. Here. She is doctor Danielle Clothes. Well, 30 00:02:43.039 --> 00:02:46.719 Danielle, thank you so much for joining me today. It's a pleasure. 31 00:02:46.759 --> 00:02:50.199 Thanks for having me, and thanks for writing a new book. I'm 32 00:02:50.240 --> 00:02:53.280 excited to talk about it. You've actually written several books, though, or 33 00:02:53.560 --> 00:02:58.039 you've written several books on your own, and you've also had your writings featured 34 00:02:58.639 --> 00:03:01.199 in several books. And it looks like the age range is really kind of 35 00:03:01.240 --> 00:03:05.280 all over the place, from little littles all the way up to books for 36 00:03:05.360 --> 00:03:08.439 adults. Yeah, that's right. I mostly you think of myself as writing 37 00:03:08.439 --> 00:03:12.560 for adults. I guess that's my core audience. But I've also written several 38 00:03:12.560 --> 00:03:15.759 books that turned out to be very popular with children, so I wrote a 39 00:03:15.759 --> 00:03:21.120 few more that was specifically for kids. And that's particularly in paleontology and fossils 40 00:03:22.039 --> 00:03:25.080 love it. And so you yourself are a biologist, you are trained as 41 00:03:25.080 --> 00:03:30.400 a conservation biologist. How have you chosen across the board, like all of 42 00:03:30.400 --> 00:03:36.240 the different areas that you like to write about. I guess I've I've always 43 00:03:36.240 --> 00:03:40.639 been a little bit into disciplinary So even though my doctorate is in biology and 44 00:03:40.719 --> 00:03:46.439 zoology and animal behavior and conservation, I did start out doing an arts degree, 45 00:03:46.599 --> 00:03:52.400 so I started out in psychology and doing animal behavior, so I've always 46 00:03:52.439 --> 00:03:57.319 had a really broad range of interests and I think writing has really promoted that 47 00:03:57.759 --> 00:04:01.199 and enabled me to just to follow whatever interests I have. So my books 48 00:04:01.199 --> 00:04:08.319 are all revolve around environmental themes, I guess, either either scientists or natural 49 00:04:08.360 --> 00:04:13.599 history stories or particular animals or ecologies. But yeah, they are pretty broad 50 00:04:13.680 --> 00:04:16.920 ranging, for sure. And this I mean, I may venture to say, 51 00:04:16.959 --> 00:04:19.879 I could be wrong. It feels like it may be kind of your 52 00:04:20.000 --> 00:04:27.639 most specific of your writings because you chose to focus in on one Maybe I 53 00:04:27.639 --> 00:04:30.079 shouldn't say species, maybe not maybe one genus. I don't know. You 54 00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:35.240 tell me, Yeah, it is one species indeed. Okay, at least 55 00:04:35.240 --> 00:04:40.319 in the modern era. There's been a lot of other species of koalas in 56 00:04:40.319 --> 00:04:44.240 the past, but the only one we have left is one particular species. 57 00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:47.839 And yeah, you're right, this is probably my most specific book in that 58 00:04:47.879 --> 00:04:54.720 sense a lot. You know, I've written a lot on bushfires and different 59 00:04:55.199 --> 00:04:59.120 scientific stories, museum collections, those sorts of things, so they've been a 60 00:04:59.160 --> 00:05:01.439 bit more wide range. And this one, I guess is really coming back 61 00:05:01.439 --> 00:05:05.319 to, you know, the core of my training in a way. And 62 00:05:05.319 --> 00:05:11.879 that it is very much a behavioral and evolutionary study of an animal, and 63 00:05:11.959 --> 00:05:15.800 also looking at their conservation and what we need to do to keep them keep 64 00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:21.439 them with us. There's so much to dive into, from the sort of 65 00:05:21.920 --> 00:05:26.240 you know, paleo evidence or at least the historical evidence, all the way 66 00:05:26.319 --> 00:05:30.480 up to what's going on now and with the future holds. But I'm curious, 67 00:05:30.759 --> 00:05:33.319 and of course anybody listening who hears your accent, it's like, okay, 68 00:05:33.360 --> 00:05:38.120 yeah, Koala's Australian, Okay, But is there a deeper connection there 69 00:05:38.319 --> 00:05:43.319 other than the fact that obviously these animals and you share the same land. 70 00:05:43.800 --> 00:05:47.120 Is there anything particular that you know drew you to wanting to write a full 71 00:05:47.199 --> 00:05:51.839 length book about them? Yeah? I guess. Koalas is such an iconic 72 00:05:51.920 --> 00:05:56.680 species, you know, they are, you know, a post child for 73 00:05:56.759 --> 00:06:01.120 conservation, not just in Australia but internationally, and particularly in the face of 74 00:06:01.480 --> 00:06:06.800 the recent bush fires that we've had over the last ten or twenty years in 75 00:06:06.839 --> 00:06:11.959 particular, Koalas have really been at the forefront of that and the impact on 76 00:06:12.040 --> 00:06:17.560 koalas. And there's a huge level of human concern about Kuala's that extends way 77 00:06:17.600 --> 00:06:23.800 beyond what people normally care about in terms of the animal kingdom. So I 78 00:06:23.839 --> 00:06:28.279 think the black Summer bushfires that we had along the East coast of Australia a 79 00:06:28.279 --> 00:06:31.920 couple of years ago, a few years ago now we're particularly telling in the 80 00:06:31.959 --> 00:06:36.439 way people responded to those fires. And they are the first bush fires I 81 00:06:36.480 --> 00:06:43.480 know of in my study of our history of fires in fact, where wildlife 82 00:06:43.519 --> 00:06:47.000 was front and center of people's concern, both in Australia and overseas. I've 83 00:06:47.040 --> 00:06:50.920 never known that to happen before. Usually people are purely concerned about the impact 84 00:06:50.959 --> 00:06:58.199 on people and the human peril. But in that one, koalas were really 85 00:06:58.240 --> 00:07:01.279 the forefront of that campaign and that concern, and there was there was just 86 00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:11.439 a massive um anxiety and affection I guess for animals and the fate of fate 87 00:07:11.439 --> 00:07:14.480 of koala's in the face of those fires. And I think that's one of 88 00:07:14.519 --> 00:07:16.879 the reasons I particularly wanted wanted to look at them, because I guess as 89 00:07:16.879 --> 00:07:20.319 an Australian, I'd always taken them a little bit for granted. Um, 90 00:07:21.279 --> 00:07:25.959 you know, there's they're so well known and yet you hardly ever see them. 91 00:07:26.560 --> 00:07:32.560 Um, it's easy to forget that they're They're real animals with complex lives 92 00:07:33.240 --> 00:07:38.120 and play an important part in the ecosystem, and they're not just a fluffy 93 00:07:38.120 --> 00:07:41.879 toy that you pop on the end of your bed or children's story. One 94 00:07:41.959 --> 00:07:45.439 hundred percent. And I think that knowing that you know, the core audience 95 00:07:45.439 --> 00:07:48.560 of this show of tark Nerdy is mostly I would say in the English speaking 96 00:07:48.560 --> 00:07:51.959 world, just you know, by virtue of the fact that I'm an American 97 00:07:53.040 --> 00:08:00.319 and podcaster, I'd say that probably the small majority is American lists, but 98 00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:03.560 then we have listeners from the UK, from Australia, from South Africa, 99 00:08:03.600 --> 00:08:07.360 and then that follows with places where English is not the dominant language, yet 100 00:08:07.360 --> 00:08:11.560 English is a common language, because I do have listeners all over the world, 101 00:08:11.560 --> 00:08:16.680 and I'll say that as somebody who travels quite often, I probably have 102 00:08:16.759 --> 00:08:22.920 about the same, if not maybe slightly more information about koalas than like the 103 00:08:22.959 --> 00:08:26.680 typical American, only because I've seen some, I've been around some, I've 104 00:08:26.720 --> 00:08:31.000 gone to some conservation centers in Australia that said, my knowledge is limited. 105 00:08:31.120 --> 00:08:35.080 So I'm gonna I'm gonna give you like my top three or four koala factoids, 106 00:08:35.080 --> 00:08:37.679 and you can just like skewer me for a what I don't know or 107 00:08:37.679 --> 00:08:41.320 what I'm getting wrong here. So I know that they are not bears, 108 00:08:41.480 --> 00:08:43.919 even though everybody calls them koala bears. I know. I think that they 109 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:50.039 eat eucalyptus. Yes, okay, good. They can carry chlamydia, which 110 00:08:50.080 --> 00:08:54.360 is fascinating to me. And I know that in Los Angeles at the La 111 00:08:54.440 --> 00:08:58.519 Zoo several years ago, our famed mountain lion, which recently passed away p. 112 00:08:58.679 --> 00:09:03.919 Twenty, who did snack on a koala that they forgot to bring back 113 00:09:03.960 --> 00:09:09.759 into the enclosure because this this specific koala doesn't like to sleep in trees. 114 00:09:09.799 --> 00:09:11.360 It likes to sleep on the ground, and so that was a nice news 115 00:09:11.360 --> 00:09:18.120 story for a while. That's pretty much about that one. So yeah, 116 00:09:18.120 --> 00:09:22.600 somewhere in the world, at some point in time two species nary should they 117 00:09:22.639 --> 00:09:28.480 have mixed m a you know, American mountain lion and an Australian koala did 118 00:09:28.559 --> 00:09:31.320 engage in some tasty I don't know, meat swapping. So yeah, that 119 00:09:31.399 --> 00:09:37.039 was interesting. But beyond that, I know nothing. Please please enlighten us. 120 00:09:37.639 --> 00:09:41.240 Yeah, well that's pretty accurate. You're you're absolutely right, then they're 121 00:09:41.240 --> 00:09:46.559 not bears. Um, although they've been called that for quite a long time. 122 00:09:46.720 --> 00:09:50.759 You know, when Europeans first came to Australia, they called them monkeys, 123 00:09:50.840 --> 00:09:56.639 sloths, bears. I think the bear monica really um hooked in in 124 00:09:56.679 --> 00:10:01.480 the in the nineteen thirties, that kind of era when the children's toy industry 125 00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:07.000 really picked up. You know, the whole teddy bear craze kind of kicked 126 00:10:07.039 --> 00:10:13.120 in, and Koalas make perfect teddy bears. You know, they've they've really 127 00:10:13.159 --> 00:10:16.200 got the natural posture for it. I think they're they're probably quite a bit 128 00:10:16.279 --> 00:10:22.159 more cuddly than most bears, I don't think so, at least don't try 129 00:10:22.200 --> 00:10:26.200 to eat you. Um so, So, yeah, I guess, I 130 00:10:26.200 --> 00:10:30.720 guess that's where that comes from. Really, it's it's a it's a children's 131 00:10:30.720 --> 00:10:35.559 toy monica. But yeah, they're marsupials, so they have a pouch. 132 00:10:35.039 --> 00:10:41.480 So they're related to the great family of marsupials that dominates Australian mammal fauna and 133 00:10:41.720 --> 00:10:46.799 is so distinctive and so very different from the rest of the world. So, 134 00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:50.399 you know, the kangaroos, the wombats, the possums, all of 135 00:10:50.440 --> 00:10:56.840 those sorts of animals all have pouches and are part of a great lineage that's 136 00:10:56.919 --> 00:11:01.240 quite distinct from from the rest of the mammals. So so that really sets 137 00:11:01.240 --> 00:11:07.399 them apart, and along with the whole wape of other things. You're pretty 138 00:11:07.440 --> 00:11:11.320 spot on with with everything you've said. Actually, they do indeed e eucalyptus 139 00:11:11.399 --> 00:11:16.480 leaves um. Yeah, and they get chlamydia, and they get chlamydia. 140 00:11:16.639 --> 00:11:20.399 That's correct too. Yes, they suffer terribly from chlamydia. So they've they've 141 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:26.679 got a rather unfortunate host of actually transmitted diseases actually, which which is causing 142 00:11:26.679 --> 00:11:31.360 them a great deal of difficulty at the moment. So this is this is 143 00:11:31.399 --> 00:11:33.639 something that I've long been curious about, and I think there's a lot of 144 00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:39.200 things about the Australian sort of ecosystem that are quite unique. Australia, like 145 00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:43.960 America, really in this way, is like a huge island, yet it's 146 00:11:43.080 --> 00:11:48.080 not, you know, it's it's very much surrounded on all sides by quite 147 00:11:48.080 --> 00:11:52.799 a bit of water. So there's all of the weird kind of evolutionary things 148 00:11:52.840 --> 00:11:56.879 that happened or that happened continue to happen in islands that have contributed to the 149 00:11:56.960 --> 00:12:01.600 unique kind of flora and fauna. But I'm super curious about marsupials in general. 150 00:12:03.240 --> 00:12:09.360 Are there things that you can point to that sort of confer evolutionary advantage 151 00:12:09.360 --> 00:12:15.320 to marsupials and or are there things that make them way more I guess sensitive, 152 00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:22.840 or way more potentially negatively impacted by things like deforestation and climate change and 153 00:12:22.960 --> 00:12:26.960 disease. Yeah, I think we probably just need to see marsupials as an 154 00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:35.360 alternative stream of evolution for mammals. They're not. I wouldn't say they're more 155 00:12:35.480 --> 00:12:41.000 or less adapted. Every everything's adapted to the monitor to the world they live 156 00:12:41.039 --> 00:12:43.879 in, to a greater or lestic extent, you know, depending on the 157 00:12:43.960 --> 00:12:48.559 change that happens in the particular characteristics they have. So, you know, 158 00:12:48.600 --> 00:12:52.559 we have hugely successful animals like kangaroos. You know, there's a great many 159 00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:58.960 kangaroo species that are that are absolutely booming in numbers and are very successful if 160 00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:03.039 you take them overseas um so, you know, and we have possums that 161 00:13:03.159 --> 00:13:09.399 also get established overseas. So there's there's nothing intrinsically vulnerable. I think. 162 00:13:09.480 --> 00:13:13.600 I guess the the issue of the Australia being You're right, it is a 163 00:13:13.639 --> 00:13:18.000 big island and because of its continental land mass. That means it can support 164 00:13:18.039 --> 00:13:24.559 a very high level of diversity, as large land masses can. However, 165 00:13:24.679 --> 00:13:28.720 it's also a big island and very much an island. It's it's the most 166 00:13:28.840 --> 00:13:35.120 isolated of the big land masses apart from Antarctica um. Whereas America, for 167 00:13:35.159 --> 00:13:39.840 example, has had land bridges both between North and South America of course, 168 00:13:39.879 --> 00:13:48.840 and also with Europe. So the species there have been impacted by more invasions 169 00:13:48.879 --> 00:13:52.799 of different species. So I guess when you have a lot of contact with 170 00:13:54.159 --> 00:14:00.840 new species coming in the type close, little evolutionary relationships that evolved between species 171 00:14:00.879 --> 00:14:05.799 that are isolated together for a long time don't evolve. So you've just got 172 00:14:05.840 --> 00:14:09.440 a much more disrupted evolutionary system. And I think that's why Australia is characterized 173 00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:18.519 by quite a lot of strange, strange, almost symbiotic relationships between species that 174 00:14:18.600 --> 00:14:22.919 perhaps gets sort of mashed together a little bit in other places. So you 175 00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:28.320 know, we've got a really high level of mimicry. You know a massive 176 00:14:28.360 --> 00:14:31.879 amount of cuckoos for example, you know, with the heartland of different species 177 00:14:31.879 --> 00:14:39.440 of cuckoos and relationships with different species, mimicry between orchards, and wasp spider 178 00:14:39.519 --> 00:14:43.080 mimic cry. You know those sorts of evolutionary partnerships, you know, symbiotic 179 00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:48.879 relationships between ants and trees and butterflies. They're very complex and very highly evolved, 180 00:14:48.879 --> 00:14:52.879 and they can only really occur, I think in a place that has 181 00:14:54.279 --> 00:14:58.039 has not had many new species coming into it a lot. And I think 182 00:15:01.159 --> 00:15:05.360 I'm curious, is that in and of itself there's very intricate, very protected 183 00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:11.840 evolutionary dance. Is it in and of itself vulnerable against the modern impacts of 184 00:15:11.480 --> 00:15:16.720 you know, the anthropathy and of human intervention. Yeah, I guess so 185 00:15:16.919 --> 00:15:22.399 in that just because it's I mean, it's not that those those impacts have 186 00:15:22.519 --> 00:15:28.039 just happened in the past in other countries where other continents, where invasive species 187 00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:33.120 have effectively come and gone and moved between continents and had their impact, whereas 188 00:15:33.159 --> 00:15:39.960 islands tend to be isolated from those factors. So that's why I think Australia 189 00:15:39.039 --> 00:15:46.080 is particularly vulnerable to extinction of mammals and other groups is because they're both. 190 00:15:46.120 --> 00:15:50.600 It's both a large land mask with a high biodiversity and an island continent with 191 00:15:50.759 --> 00:15:56.679 a high vulnerability as a result, because those species have been isolated, So 192 00:15:56.679 --> 00:16:02.159 it's not that they're more vulnerable, it's just that the the you know, 193 00:16:02.279 --> 00:16:04.600 they're facing impacts that other countries have already dealt with, and their species have 194 00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:10.559 already gone extinct, So that makes sense. Yeah, and I'm especially curious 195 00:16:10.600 --> 00:16:15.799 about kowala's as as their own species, because I do think that there is 196 00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:21.039 a and and correct me if this is a complete sort of misunderstanding, But 197 00:16:21.080 --> 00:16:26.919 there's almost a stereotype, we could say, almost a bias that Koalas are 198 00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:30.879 kind of slow and kind of stupid and not very adaptable and sort of just 199 00:16:30.919 --> 00:16:34.320 like out there just waiting to go extinct, which is a really sad stereotype, 200 00:16:34.360 --> 00:16:37.440 but I think it's one that a lot of people might hold. M 201 00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:41.600 I think we really like to blame species for their own name, right, 202 00:16:42.679 --> 00:16:47.440 you know, that's much more comfortable to us than to actually blame it ourselves. 203 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:55.720 Yeah, and it's also it is ultimately also stems from a very Eurocentric 204 00:16:55.840 --> 00:16:57.480 view of the world, you know, very Western view of the world. 205 00:16:57.519 --> 00:17:00.799 You know, when Europeans first went to America, they had very much the 206 00:17:00.840 --> 00:17:06.599 same reaction. They basically, you know, famously European scientists said that American 207 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:14.039 fauna was degenerate, um, lesser than you know, European, and that's 208 00:17:14.039 --> 00:17:17.279 what would happen to humans if they went there. So you know, there 209 00:17:17.359 --> 00:17:22.279 is that very eurocentric bias, and Australian fauna has suffered from that as well. 210 00:17:23.000 --> 00:17:30.039 That massupials are commonly commonly pitched as being lesser than Placental or Eutherian mammals 211 00:17:30.119 --> 00:17:33.000 because they're less familiar. That's just just just because people don't know as much 212 00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:37.000 about them. They look different, um, so they can't be as good 213 00:17:37.480 --> 00:17:42.519 and and so there's a there's a broad mythology that marsupials are stupid, UM, 214 00:17:44.440 --> 00:17:49.200 less avanced, more primitive. All of these sorts of things UM and 215 00:17:49.400 --> 00:17:55.200 koalas are you know, sort of set at the apex of that they really 216 00:17:55.240 --> 00:18:00.319 don't ye sadly, which which I do I do go through in my can 217 00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:04.039 debunk a lot of a lot of that mythology around koalas, and a lot 218 00:18:04.039 --> 00:18:07.599 of it you know that it's tied to the trees they eat. So people 219 00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:12.920 will argue that koalas are slow and stupid because they eat eucalyptus leaves, which 220 00:18:12.920 --> 00:18:17.119 are toxic, and therefore they don't have enough energy to do anything else, 221 00:18:17.160 --> 00:18:21.880 and therefore their brains have shrunk, none of which is true or even makes 222 00:18:21.880 --> 00:18:26.119 sense if you think about it. So right, right, and like, 223 00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:30.799 there are plenty of species on this planet that have a very specific diet that 224 00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:36.720 evolved, as you said, almost like symbiotically with a particular source of fuel. 225 00:18:36.799 --> 00:18:40.000 So I'm curious about I don't know why, but it does capture the 226 00:18:40.039 --> 00:18:47.599 imagination this like cuddly little mammal on these trees that specifically eat this one leaf. 227 00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:51.440 I think we see something similar with pandas. Right, yeah, it's 228 00:18:51.519 --> 00:18:56.599 the same story. Yeah, Yeah, you've chosen badly in evolutionary terms, 229 00:18:56.640 --> 00:19:00.279 and therefore you're going to go extinct. You know, we always say koalas 230 00:19:00.279 --> 00:19:06.079 only eat one thing. They're they're up to nine hundred species of eucalypse in 231 00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:10.359 Australia. They're the dominant tree in our forests. They're the major tree and 232 00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:14.640 they are difficult to eat, so a lot of mammals struggle with eating them 233 00:19:14.680 --> 00:19:19.279 because the toxins in them make them feel sick. Kualas have managed to exploit 234 00:19:19.519 --> 00:19:26.000 those trees that really vast forest to state, so they're really that's an actually 235 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:30.559 really good move and not only that, but they've managed to adapt to a 236 00:19:30.599 --> 00:19:36.920 wide range of species, so they Koalas, as a species eat are known 237 00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:41.960 to eat at least seventy species of eucalypse, although individual koalas only eat between 238 00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:47.160 three and ten different species of eucalypse, but that's still a pretty wide range. 239 00:19:47.640 --> 00:19:52.079 So we have this interesting thing whereas as a species they're actually generalists, 240 00:19:52.119 --> 00:19:56.960 but as individuals they're specialists, so they specialize on particular trees that are found 241 00:19:57.039 --> 00:20:00.759 in the area that they grow up in. Obviously, there's no point in 242 00:20:00.799 --> 00:20:03.799 adapting to eating a tree that's found on the other side of the country, 243 00:20:04.279 --> 00:20:07.559 right. I was wondering if there's that a function simply of what's available. 244 00:20:07.640 --> 00:20:11.240 Is it a function of culture, of what's been learned within the family, 245 00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:15.240 like this is good. Do this because this is what mom and dad taught 246 00:20:15.319 --> 00:20:21.039 you. Yeah, it's a really interesting question that it seems to be quite 247 00:20:21.079 --> 00:20:26.359 closely associated with what they physically can eat, because, like most herbivores, 248 00:20:26.279 --> 00:20:32.000 kualas can't actually digest the cellulose and lignant in their plant diet themselves. They 249 00:20:32.039 --> 00:20:37.559 have to have a microbiome to do that. But their microbiome is very specialized 250 00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:42.400 so it appears to be adapted to the particular species of eucalypt that they eat, 251 00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:48.440 and they receive that microbiome from their mother. So they have to actually 252 00:20:48.519 --> 00:20:52.400 be inoculated with the bacteria. They need to eat leaves, so little Joey 253 00:20:52.519 --> 00:20:57.240 Kualas when they're feeding on milk, they can't eat leaves at all. They 254 00:20:57.240 --> 00:21:00.160 will mess around with them, but they don't eat them. So it's not 255 00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:07.599 until they received that inoculation from their mother in a very messy and slightly unpleasant 256 00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:15.279 method. Where to hear about this? Yeah, So the koalas have a 257 00:21:15.799 --> 00:21:19.119 they keep their gut that the majority of the bacteria I suppose is contained in 258 00:21:19.119 --> 00:21:23.839 a secum, which in humans is the appendix. But we only have a 259 00:21:23.920 --> 00:21:30.839 residual scum which is about the size of our thumb, whereas koalas have one 260 00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:34.400 that's a meter and a half long or so, so it's quite a lot 261 00:21:34.519 --> 00:21:40.640 larger. And that's like a pocket that holds a microbial soup. And the 262 00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:45.240 Koalas chew up their leaves, wash the fine particulates into the secum. Then 263 00:21:45.079 --> 00:21:51.599 the bigger bits just get passed through um and they sit in that soup for 264 00:21:52.200 --> 00:21:55.680 days, for quite a long time while they get digested, and then the 265 00:21:55.759 --> 00:22:00.480 nutrients are absorbed in that way, so that pro is really specific. And 266 00:22:00.599 --> 00:22:07.000 when um mothers need to wean their their joeys, they actually evacuate the contents 267 00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:12.119 of the secum. So it's not a normal fecal you know, dropping um. 268 00:22:14.119 --> 00:22:21.680 It's a bright green soup. Interesting now, and the joeys absolutely love 269 00:22:21.680 --> 00:22:27.039 it. And it's very messy and um looks pretty disgusting, but there's something 270 00:22:27.079 --> 00:22:30.240 in it that attracts them. There must be some sort of factor or some 271 00:22:30.279 --> 00:22:34.359 sort of scent or something. They try to know that is what they need, 272 00:22:36.279 --> 00:22:40.160 right, They just they consume as much of that as they possibly can, 273 00:22:40.279 --> 00:22:44.039 and from then on they eat leaves. Oh that's fascinating. And so 274 00:22:44.079 --> 00:22:47.720 are they getting some of it, some of this microbiome in their breast milk, 275 00:22:47.799 --> 00:22:51.279 But then the vast majority has to come through this like scum dump. 276 00:22:51.759 --> 00:22:56.440 Yeah. I don't. I don't know if anybody's looked at what biome comes 277 00:22:56.480 --> 00:23:00.079 through through the breast milk, I should say, estill, is it breast 278 00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:06.480 milk? There are different kinds of mammals, all right, I'm so confused. 279 00:23:07.319 --> 00:23:15.279 Yes, yeah, but definitely the pat feeding is really really crucial to 280 00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:19.000 koalism, and they could certainly not survive. They wouldn't be able to consume 281 00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:22.839 or digest that food properly. So there's there's arguments. You know, we 282 00:23:22.880 --> 00:23:27.640 do this with captive animals. Zookeepers will be familiar with this process that if 283 00:23:27.640 --> 00:23:33.160 herbivores are struggling in a zoo, young herbivals, they get diarrhea or whatever. 284 00:23:33.279 --> 00:23:38.720 It's very common for zookeepers to crush up fecal samples from a healthy adult, 285 00:23:40.119 --> 00:23:41.599 put it in their milk and feed it to them, and that's a 286 00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:45.039 way of inoculating them. And we do this with humans as well, so 287 00:23:45.880 --> 00:23:52.559 humans can also be inoculated with fecal samples. That's a standard medical practice. 288 00:23:52.119 --> 00:23:59.839 And interestingly, there are some people who seem to be extremely good sources or 289 00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:07.519 donors for this, so they the super poopers and the examples are really prized 290 00:24:07.559 --> 00:24:14.960 by the hospitals for reinoculating a human gut biomes with the right bacteria to enable 291 00:24:15.039 --> 00:24:18.079 people to be healthy. So I think increasingly we're learning how important that is, 292 00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:26.200 and it's it's really particularly important in Koala's you know, I'm curious, 293 00:24:26.240 --> 00:24:29.680 there's something and I think again, we think about pandas in this same way, 294 00:24:29.720 --> 00:24:32.640 which is funny because it's like, yeah, koala bears and panda bears, 295 00:24:32.640 --> 00:24:34.319 and like you said, they're at they're at the foot of little kids 296 00:24:34.319 --> 00:24:38.039 beds all over the world. But there's something about them, going back to 297 00:24:38.119 --> 00:24:44.119 this stereotype, which absolutely is a very colonial, very kind of your eurocentric 298 00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:51.519 stereotype, that there's something almost tame about them. Like they're clearly wild animals, 299 00:24:51.559 --> 00:24:56.279 they're not domestic hits, but there's something that has long felt and I 300 00:24:56.319 --> 00:25:00.960 think I worry a little bit actually about the imagery and the coverage of some 301 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:04.720 of the wildfires playing into that where you would see these struggling koalas and you'd 302 00:25:04.759 --> 00:25:10.480 see like a koala hand reaching out to a human hand or like you know, 303 00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:14.599 grasping a human being as they're like taking it to safety, and it's 304 00:25:14.599 --> 00:25:15.759 like, oh, no, we should not be hugging koala. Mm. 305 00:25:17.640 --> 00:25:22.480 Yeah, that hugging is a really interesting thing, and I think that part 306 00:25:22.519 --> 00:25:26.880 of it is, you know, koala's have got some characteristics that really tap 307 00:25:26.920 --> 00:25:34.640 into some human emotions, and you know, some of our instinctive behaviors correlate 308 00:25:34.799 --> 00:25:41.640 just purely through coincidence with with koalas. So koalas have faces that we intrinsically 309 00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:47.160 react to as faces. You know, we have special neurological receptors that makes 310 00:25:47.240 --> 00:25:52.720 us very susceptible to those particular shapes of faces. So so they koala's sort 311 00:25:52.720 --> 00:26:00.359 of generate that kind of very um maternal or paternal response um to them with 312 00:26:00.359 --> 00:26:03.640 with a childlike feet, you know, they're they're quite childlike in size. 313 00:26:04.160 --> 00:26:10.799 They the way they sit, the way they hold their arms up to their 314 00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:14.839 to their parents, and also young koalas if they're approaching people, will very 315 00:26:14.839 --> 00:26:19.079 commonly put their arms up to either climb up you or to to or to 316 00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:26.079 be picked up, so they solicit um responses from humans. Not all the 317 00:26:26.119 --> 00:26:29.279 time, a lot of koalas will just try and move away from you and 318 00:26:29.319 --> 00:26:33.240 would prefer to keep their distance. But occasionally young koalas will come into contact 319 00:26:33.240 --> 00:26:37.680 with humans or injured koalas or kohala's looking for assistance, and they don't have 320 00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:45.039 an intrinsic They're not particularly flighty animals, I guess in their they don't run 321 00:26:45.079 --> 00:26:48.759 away the way a lot of other animals do, and it's quite unusual for 322 00:26:48.839 --> 00:26:52.839 a wild animal I think um in you know, if if if you imagine 323 00:26:52.839 --> 00:26:57.240 you're trying to rescue a cat or a dog from a place that it's it's 324 00:26:57.319 --> 00:27:03.000 stark um. They're rarely allow human assistance. You know, they normally cause 325 00:27:03.079 --> 00:27:07.640 problems for you if you're trying to get them out of a tree or something. 326 00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:11.240 Right, and they're domestic and domestic animals that are accustomed to humans and 327 00:27:11.440 --> 00:27:18.119 used to seeking assistance from humans, whereas koalas seem to react quite differently. 328 00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:22.279 They seem to be willing to accept assistance or even seek assistance from humans on 329 00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:26.880 occasion. That's not to say that we should necessarily go and inflict our company 330 00:27:26.920 --> 00:27:32.920 on them in every opportunity. Most of the time they prefer to be on 331 00:27:32.960 --> 00:27:37.799 their own, but they do have a strange response to humans, and they're 332 00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:41.640 quite curious animals. They like to look at humans and keep an eye on 333 00:27:41.680 --> 00:27:45.839 them, so you always notice they're watching you from the top of the trees 334 00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:55.519 if you happen to be nearby. So they do present a difficulty for humans 335 00:27:55.519 --> 00:27:59.759 in knowing how to respond to them, because because they do have a way 336 00:27:59.799 --> 00:28:04.079 of interacting with us that's unusual. Yeah, And of course I think people 337 00:28:04.599 --> 00:28:10.079 in our way, we feel compassion, we feel empathy. We also have 338 00:28:10.200 --> 00:28:14.359 that like cute factor, and sadly, I think that, you know, 339 00:28:14.519 --> 00:28:19.000 even under normal circumstances, not dire circumstances like during the wildfires, people are 340 00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:22.119 like, oh, cute thing, I want to pat it, which is 341 00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:26.680 not okay. No. I mean we're primates and we like fiddling with things, 342 00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:33.799 you know, and humans are quite unusual in being particularly interested in other 343 00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:37.440 species. We're very, very attracted to other species and wanting to touch them 344 00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:44.079 and pat them and interact with them far more than other species necessarily do. 345 00:28:44.599 --> 00:28:48.880 But you know, koalas do approach other animals. You know, they'll approach 346 00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:52.960 horses and kangaroos and all sorts of other species, so they do have interspecific 347 00:28:53.640 --> 00:28:59.160 interactions. So so it's it's it's an unusual I think. I think they 348 00:28:59.200 --> 00:29:03.440 just happened to tap into a few key things that really hit our buttons and 349 00:29:03.519 --> 00:29:08.920 create that very emotional response to them, right, which which I guess did 350 00:29:08.960 --> 00:29:12.440 work in their favor. I mean, sadly, in the grand scheme of 351 00:29:12.440 --> 00:29:15.400 things, not really, because when we talk about these horrific wildfires, I 352 00:29:15.400 --> 00:29:19.519 mean we know, in the heart of hearts right, that our human activities 353 00:29:19.519 --> 00:29:23.920 are what's what's causing these problems. But at the same time, there was 354 00:29:23.960 --> 00:29:29.720 a really big rescue effort, was there, not absolutely that there was. 355 00:29:30.599 --> 00:29:37.119 Koala's attract more funding than any other species, I'm told in terms of conservation 356 00:29:37.160 --> 00:29:42.599 efforts. But the conservation efforts are largely directed at rescuing injured animals, which 357 00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:48.400 obviously is it worth, very worthwhile thing to do. But we seem to 358 00:29:48.440 --> 00:29:52.759 be very keen on rescuing animals and not so keen on protecting them in the 359 00:29:52.799 --> 00:29:59.519 first place. And really we need to be devoting more effort to making sure 360 00:29:59.519 --> 00:30:03.279 those almost have the habitat they need to be safe and healthy, rather than 361 00:30:03.799 --> 00:30:07.880 having to rescue them when they run out of habitat and come into contact with 362 00:30:08.200 --> 00:30:15.440 cars or diseases or other factors that are impacting there. There will being right, 363 00:30:15.559 --> 00:30:18.920 and so let's let's sort of take a step back. Obviously I want 364 00:30:18.960 --> 00:30:22.119 to talk about the future and you know, the future of this species and 365 00:30:22.279 --> 00:30:26.559 kind of what we can be doing to help protect them, but also let's 366 00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:30.599 look at their past, because I think a lot of people, you know, 367 00:30:30.799 --> 00:30:36.920 we're sort of aware of, like certain ancient animal species were aware of 368 00:30:36.960 --> 00:30:41.079 dinosaurs, were aware of some of the great kind of larger mammal species that 369 00:30:41.160 --> 00:30:49.799 have gone extinct. But I don't know how common knowledge it is that a 370 00:30:49.960 --> 00:30:56.400 there were kind of great koalas that in the fossil record, and be this 371 00:30:56.839 --> 00:31:00.359 sort of interesting thing that again happens because of island ecology. We're you either 372 00:31:00.400 --> 00:31:04.279 get really big things are really really small things. Yeah, yeah, I 373 00:31:04.319 --> 00:31:08.759 mean koalas are really interesting because as I mentioned earlier, I've written quite a 374 00:31:08.799 --> 00:31:15.720 few books for kids about Australia's fossil history and megafauna, and I guess one 375 00:31:15.720 --> 00:31:19.200 of the things that always interested me is when we look for pictures of fossil 376 00:31:19.240 --> 00:31:26.599 koalas, they always just look like modern koala's just like a little bit bigger, 377 00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:29.960 which is not a very exciting picture, you know. We ever to 378 00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:32.960 present, oh it's a koala, and I thought, well, how do 379 00:31:32.960 --> 00:31:36.039 we how do we even know what those kalas look like? Because the only 380 00:31:36.039 --> 00:31:38.720 things we have to go buy are their largely their teeth. Because Australia has 381 00:31:38.799 --> 00:31:45.880 quite a poor fossil record because it's such an old continent and we've had a 382 00:31:45.880 --> 00:31:51.519 lot of erosion, so we don't have a good fossil record in the way 383 00:31:51.519 --> 00:31:53.880 of having whole skeletons and things like that, so we tend to just have 384 00:31:53.960 --> 00:31:57.400 the teeth, which are the hardest bit. You know, teeth last longer 385 00:31:57.440 --> 00:32:02.240 than anything else, which fortunately are very very distinctive, so they're easy to 386 00:32:02.279 --> 00:32:06.400 identify if it's if it's a koala or not. But it doesn't tell you 387 00:32:06.519 --> 00:32:10.079 much more about it other than a rough indication of size, So you know 388 00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:14.319 you've got a big one or a small one, but you don't know if 389 00:32:14.599 --> 00:32:19.960 it had the same types of climbing adaptations, if if it had if it 390 00:32:20.039 --> 00:32:23.039 had the big fluffy ears, if it had the big black nose, did 391 00:32:23.079 --> 00:32:28.480 it have a tail? You know, we're ancient koalas like possums or were 392 00:32:28.519 --> 00:32:32.799 they more like wombats? You know, we don't We really don't know because 393 00:32:32.799 --> 00:32:39.119 we haven't got the full skeletons of the prehistoric animals. So until those skeletons 394 00:32:39.160 --> 00:32:45.279 come to light, we're not really going to know the details about prehistoric koalas. 395 00:32:45.480 --> 00:32:49.000 All we do know is the type of type of food they ate, 396 00:32:49.079 --> 00:32:53.960 so we know that they ate leaves rather than grass, and we know that 397 00:32:54.000 --> 00:33:00.839 they changed in the toughness of the leaves they ate, so modern cares seem 398 00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:05.440 to be adapted to the particularly tough leaves of the eucalypse, whereas some of 399 00:33:05.480 --> 00:33:09.039 the prehistoric koalas were probably eating softer rainforest leaves. And it may will be 400 00:33:09.079 --> 00:33:15.119 some particular adaptation to eucalypse that didn't have enabled the modern koala to survive where 401 00:33:15.160 --> 00:33:17.359 some of their prehistoric cousins did not. I'm curious, you know, we 402 00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:22.799 are using the word prehistoric and really talking about the fossil record. How old 403 00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:24.599 were there, like, do we know when they first came on the scene. 404 00:33:25.279 --> 00:33:30.880 Yeah, interestingly they're they're about twenty five million years old as the oldest 405 00:33:30.960 --> 00:33:36.880 record of koalas, and that's around the same time that eucalypts first started to 406 00:33:36.920 --> 00:33:39.880 appear on the Australian continent as well in the fossil record, so that's quite 407 00:33:39.880 --> 00:33:45.720 interesting. Possibly they are earlier, earlier koalas, but we haven't found them 408 00:33:45.799 --> 00:33:52.640 yet. So they have been around for quite a long time. And I 409 00:33:52.680 --> 00:33:55.200 guess, you know, we did have a range of different ones and in 410 00:33:55.240 --> 00:34:01.240 the megafaunal period there was also a giant koala which wasn't It wasn't a giant 411 00:34:01.839 --> 00:34:05.799 in terms of you know, as big as a bear or a big bear, 412 00:34:05.960 --> 00:34:09.400 but it was still about three times the size of modern kuala, so 413 00:34:09.480 --> 00:34:15.280 a pretty hefty beast. Um for sure. What was the particulos? What 414 00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:19.679 was sort of the milieu at the time, Like what were koalas hanging out 415 00:34:19.679 --> 00:34:22.599 with? Do we know what other animals existed alongside them? Yeah? No, 416 00:34:22.760 --> 00:34:27.679 that's that's really interesting. I mean the megafauna of Australia is quite interesting 417 00:34:27.719 --> 00:34:30.639 because you know, we when we think about megafaunal species, we tend to 418 00:34:30.679 --> 00:34:35.880 think about, you know, wooly mammoths and sabertooth tigers and giant sloths and 419 00:34:35.960 --> 00:34:40.039 stuff like that, but of course they're mostly plus anal mammals are Eutherian mammals, 420 00:34:40.079 --> 00:34:46.320 so we had giant marsupials instead, So we we had animals that are 421 00:34:46.400 --> 00:34:53.480 quite different from anything that currently exists um and the close cousins of the of 422 00:34:53.519 --> 00:34:59.880 the Kuala are quite interesting because they include Diprotodon, which was the biggest massi 423 00:35:00.079 --> 00:35:05.960 pure megafauna, So that was a two to three ton animal um so, 424 00:35:06.280 --> 00:35:13.079 so like a big grazing wombat or a bear if you like, that sort 425 00:35:13.079 --> 00:35:15.400 of size animal, about the size of a small four wheel drive car if 426 00:35:15.480 --> 00:35:20.519 you like. So, but it had a pouch and it carried its young 427 00:35:20.639 --> 00:35:25.079 inner pouch, so we know we have fossil diprotodons. Actually that still have 428 00:35:25.199 --> 00:35:30.039 the joey being carried in the mother's pouch and the we know it didn't the 429 00:35:30.159 --> 00:35:38.239 joey wasn't walking because the feetbone footbones are not mature. So it was carrying 430 00:35:38.280 --> 00:35:43.280 those those young animals in the pouch. So you know, there all sorts 431 00:35:43.320 --> 00:35:45.119 of strange animals. There's thigh like a leo, which was a was a 432 00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:51.039 giant predatory I guess we could call it a predatory possum, so it was 433 00:35:51.119 --> 00:35:54.800 like a possum like animal, but um, it was probably more like a 434 00:35:54.880 --> 00:36:02.199 leopard. So ambush predator in trees had an astonishing killing biteum just incredibly strong 435 00:36:02.320 --> 00:36:07.599 jaws and big slicing blades for teeth in the in the back of its mouth 436 00:36:07.639 --> 00:36:13.199 that sliced through through meat, and a retractable thumb claw for grabbing hold of 437 00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:17.320 its prey. So that that koala that met with the mountain lion might have 438 00:36:17.920 --> 00:36:24.800 sort of residual genetic memory of silacaleo leaping on it. It's amazing, Yeah, 439 00:36:24.880 --> 00:36:28.280 always think about this when we when we look at the way that we 440 00:36:28.320 --> 00:36:31.440 sort of describe a lot of these ancient species, and I'm like, man, 441 00:36:31.519 --> 00:36:36.840 it was a rough time. There's a jungle out there, like literally, 442 00:36:37.239 --> 00:36:40.360 Yeah. There was also Megalania, which was the other big predator, 443 00:36:40.440 --> 00:36:45.960 which was which was like a relative of komodo dragon, only about five meters 444 00:36:45.960 --> 00:36:52.760 long, so pretty enormousine and lizard that was really Yeah, you wouldn't want 445 00:36:52.760 --> 00:36:57.360 to meet with that one either. It's so curious to me. I wonder 446 00:36:57.360 --> 00:37:00.320 if if Koala is back in the day, you know, ancient koala still 447 00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:01.880 had a very similar temperament, if they're like, oh, what are you 448 00:37:02.199 --> 00:37:07.800 and it's like yeah, yeah, I mean, I think there was a 449 00:37:07.880 --> 00:37:13.119 reason they stayed up in the trees, you know, safe, forced to 450 00:37:13.159 --> 00:37:15.840 be relatively and I think being in the trip, being tree dwellers is actually 451 00:37:16.559 --> 00:37:22.039 explains a lot about their personality or their temperamentum in their you know, their 452 00:37:22.079 --> 00:37:25.960 lack of flight response, because their defense mechanism against predators is to sit tight 453 00:37:27.079 --> 00:37:30.039 in a tree, and they are actually very hard to see in trees. 454 00:37:30.920 --> 00:37:34.320 I had one just in my in my yard. I knew it was in 455 00:37:34.360 --> 00:37:37.079 the tree, but it took me forever to find it. Because they're so 456 00:37:37.719 --> 00:37:39.960 that they just curl up in the cook of a branch and don't unless they 457 00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:44.920 move. They're very hard to spot, so that's their best defense mechanism and 458 00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:50.039 that keeps them pretty safe from most predators. Um so you know, there's 459 00:37:50.079 --> 00:37:57.280 the occasional there's a powerful owl which occasionally takes kualas, but pythons might occasionally 460 00:37:57.400 --> 00:38:00.360 up in the tropics, but really until they come down on the ground, 461 00:38:00.440 --> 00:38:05.400 they're pretty safe from most predators. And what are their typical predators on the 462 00:38:05.440 --> 00:38:10.360 ground, Well, it's historically it's been m dingos of what you know, 463 00:38:10.960 --> 00:38:20.519 which are the native Australian dog and now dogs generally form a really big threat 464 00:38:20.559 --> 00:38:23.079 to koala's, so so dogs are a big problem for them. There's there's 465 00:38:23.079 --> 00:38:29.400 a lot of dog attacks and cars are obviously a huge impact as well because 466 00:38:29.440 --> 00:38:32.960 they do they do cross roads and they're not they don't run away from cars 467 00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:37.159 either. It's a real characteristic with Koala's that it's not uncommon for them to 468 00:38:37.360 --> 00:38:42.280 sit in the middle of the road when a car comes across them and just 469 00:38:42.400 --> 00:38:45.599 wait, so which is not a great reaction in the middle of a busy 470 00:38:45.679 --> 00:38:51.480 road. So clearly we've got you know, human impact. Dogs are domestic 471 00:38:51.599 --> 00:38:54.719 hits, people letting them outside, letting them off leash, or or fairal 472 00:38:54.840 --> 00:39:00.280 dogs that are running around. We're talking cars, roads, you know, 473 00:39:00.320 --> 00:39:05.679 criss crossing their habitat. We're talking anthropogenic climate change as we saw, you 474 00:39:05.719 --> 00:39:08.519 know. I mean there's so many aspects of that, from the wildfires to 475 00:39:09.360 --> 00:39:15.159 you know, habitat loss. Are we really we are their biggest threats, 476 00:39:15.159 --> 00:39:19.440 aren't we? Yeah? I mean the habitat loss is a really big factor. 477 00:39:19.559 --> 00:39:22.280 I think for koalas. We have lost an awful lot of our forest 478 00:39:22.400 --> 00:39:28.320 estate in Australia, and even the forest estate we have, we're continuing to 479 00:39:28.559 --> 00:39:32.599 change it through native logging in the Eastern States, so Queensland and New South 480 00:39:32.599 --> 00:39:38.840 Wales still have logging of native forests and that actually reduces the number of edible 481 00:39:38.960 --> 00:39:44.599 gum trees and increases the level of toxic gum trees. So there's quite a 482 00:39:44.639 --> 00:39:49.960 lot of gum trees that koalas can't eat at all. So so so even 483 00:39:50.000 --> 00:39:52.639 though it looks like a forest, it's it's not an edible forest anymore. 484 00:39:54.159 --> 00:39:59.199 So those those factors play a big role in it has even bigger impacts on 485 00:39:59.239 --> 00:40:02.079 of course the others bess in the forest as well. We also tend to 486 00:40:02.159 --> 00:40:06.920 like living in the same habitats koalas, so so we like you know, 487 00:40:07.039 --> 00:40:14.199 the lush Um river bank areas of the forests, and those are also the 488 00:40:14.320 --> 00:40:19.280 key forest areas that are best for koalas because the more water the trees get, 489 00:40:19.480 --> 00:40:23.000 they're less toxic they are and the more nutritious they are. So breeding 490 00:40:23.039 --> 00:40:30.000 Koala's in particular are they're walking a fairly fine line with their with their food 491 00:40:30.079 --> 00:40:34.079 to be able to have enough nutrition to raise a joey to adulthood. It 492 00:40:34.119 --> 00:40:37.599 takes a long time to raise a joey because of the low nutrient leaves they 493 00:40:37.639 --> 00:40:42.559 eat um. And so you know, if you if you reduce that nutrition 494 00:40:42.639 --> 00:40:46.400 further with the trees and remove the ones along the rivers and the and the 495 00:40:46.760 --> 00:40:51.280 creek lines, then then you make it even harder. So again it's not 496 00:40:51.320 --> 00:40:55.039 just it's not just the the existence of forests. It's got to be the 497 00:40:55.119 --> 00:40:59.679 right forest. You know, Koala needs a very big area of forest to 498 00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:05.960 water it. Most koalas have an average home range of about the size of 499 00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:12.880 a sports field of forest and in poorer forest areas, more arid areas that 500 00:41:12.960 --> 00:41:16.480 can be as big as Central Park. So that's one Koala per Central Park. 501 00:41:17.719 --> 00:41:22.559 So they're very dispersed animals and they need a lot of different trees because 502 00:41:22.599 --> 00:41:27.599 they can't just keep eating the same tree. It's it's not like that. 503 00:41:27.679 --> 00:41:31.400 It's very characteristic of koala's When you offer them leaves. They maybe have been 504 00:41:31.440 --> 00:41:35.800 eating the same leaf for quite a few weeks, perfectly, happily off the 505 00:41:35.840 --> 00:41:37.920 one tree, and then suddenly they will decide they won't eat it anymore. 506 00:41:38.360 --> 00:41:43.039 And we don't know why that is, but it's quite likely that the toxicity 507 00:41:43.079 --> 00:41:45.000 levels have changed, the balance has changed in the leaf and it's no longer 508 00:41:45.039 --> 00:41:49.880 palatable to them, so they need something else, and you have to in 509 00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:53.840 zoos, you have to provide them with a really wide range of different leaves 510 00:41:53.880 --> 00:41:59.760 from different trees, individual trees and different species to keep them healthy. And 511 00:41:59.800 --> 00:42:02.320 that's what makes them one of the most expensive animals to keep in a zoo 512 00:42:04.119 --> 00:42:08.480 outside of Australia. Wow. And you know this other thing that I don't 513 00:42:08.519 --> 00:42:14.159 know is is it because of human intervention or is it a zoanartic thing that 514 00:42:14.199 --> 00:42:16.480 went the other direction or is it not zoanartic at all? But these these 515 00:42:16.599 --> 00:42:21.480 STIs sexually transmitted infections, and they're ones that are familiar to us, like 516 00:42:21.679 --> 00:42:27.039 chlamydia. Is it the same chlamidia? Yeah, that's a really interesting question. 517 00:42:27.599 --> 00:42:32.599 We've historically we've always assumed that the Chlamidia koala's have is the same way 518 00:42:32.719 --> 00:42:38.119 that sheep have, and that sheep are transmitters of and that koalas may have 519 00:42:38.239 --> 00:42:44.920 got that from sheep that when she arrived in Australia. There's some debate about 520 00:42:44.920 --> 00:42:46.920 that at the moment, you know, genetic studies going on saying that there's 521 00:42:47.039 --> 00:42:53.280 also there's many different varieties of chlamydia, so it's possibly that there is a 522 00:42:53.360 --> 00:42:59.960 native variety as well, so that's sort of ongoing research. The other disease 523 00:43:00.119 --> 00:43:04.360 that they suffer from is a koala AIDS, so a retrovirus that causes and 524 00:43:04.440 --> 00:43:08.320 aids like disease, which of course exacerbates chlamydia as well, so it makes 525 00:43:08.400 --> 00:43:17.320 that worse for them. And retroviruses have certainly always been present in Koala populations 526 00:43:19.159 --> 00:43:23.239 for a long time, but they seems to be a particularly virulent form spreading 527 00:43:23.239 --> 00:43:27.679 from the north down through the Koala population, which is having a really major 528 00:43:27.800 --> 00:43:32.519 impact. And I guess the thing we have to recognize is that those sorts 529 00:43:32.519 --> 00:43:39.480 of diseases typically affect populations that are under stress already. So if we have 530 00:43:39.519 --> 00:43:45.599 a population that's suffering stress through habitat change, then those diseases will highly become 531 00:43:45.639 --> 00:43:49.199 worse. So we've got to be careful about whether we attribute that as a 532 00:43:49.239 --> 00:43:54.760 symptom or a cause of the problem. It's notable that the southern Koala populations 533 00:43:55.079 --> 00:43:59.639 are doing much better. They're quite strong, and then they're not having the 534 00:43:59.639 --> 00:44:06.960 problem the northern populations are, but they typically have had been. Chommittee is 535 00:44:06.960 --> 00:44:12.480 absent in some of those populations, and I know the ones in the Adelaide 536 00:44:12.559 --> 00:44:16.400 Hills where I live with they're very very abundant, are starting to show signs 537 00:44:16.400 --> 00:44:22.119 of chlamydia, but they don't seem to manifest the same symptoms, so they 538 00:44:22.159 --> 00:44:25.519 seem to be able to carry the chlamydia without it causing them particular problems, 539 00:44:25.559 --> 00:44:31.559 whereas it's a massively debilitating and painful disease in other populations. So it's a 540 00:44:31.599 --> 00:44:38.000 complicated issue. Yeah, as it treatable, Like obviously retroviruses are difficult, 541 00:44:38.159 --> 00:44:40.920 you know, we now have in the human population. We have prep, 542 00:44:42.159 --> 00:44:45.760 we have drugs, but they have to be taken on a very specific schedule. 543 00:44:45.800 --> 00:44:50.760 They're very expensive, Like I can imagine that a kohala retrovirus would be 544 00:44:50.840 --> 00:44:53.840 much harder to take care of. But is there a way to treat the 545 00:44:54.239 --> 00:45:00.400 wild population of chlamydia? Yeah, the retrovirus are difficult, and worst thing 546 00:45:00.400 --> 00:45:06.280 with them is that they're not only transmitted through birth from mother to offspring, 547 00:45:06.320 --> 00:45:12.280 they're actually they genetically infect the baby before it's even born, so so that 548 00:45:12.559 --> 00:45:19.440 the offspring is born with the retrovirus in their DNA. So that's that's a 549 00:45:19.480 --> 00:45:25.119 particularly terrible component. Um Chlamydia is treatable, but koala is because they are 550 00:45:25.159 --> 00:45:30.840 adapted to eating eucalypt leaves, they're extremely good at removing toxins from their system, 551 00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:35.880 and they do this using their supercharged liver, so they have got double 552 00:45:35.960 --> 00:45:39.760 doses of genes for removing toxins, and they remove medication from their system. 553 00:45:43.320 --> 00:45:46.119 So in a human you might take a three day dose of drugs to remove 554 00:45:46.199 --> 00:45:52.400 chlamydia. A koala, the same drugs would be thirty days. And how 555 00:45:52.440 --> 00:45:54.960 hard is it to treat a wild koala for thirty days? Straight. Yeah. 556 00:45:55.280 --> 00:46:00.760 Yeah, fortunately they're not they're not too bad. You know, they 557 00:46:00.800 --> 00:46:06.400 are generally okay in captivity, but in terms of temperament, but yeah, 558 00:46:06.599 --> 00:46:09.639 it is really difficult. So there are vaccines currently being trialed for chlamydia, 559 00:46:09.679 --> 00:46:14.199 because of course, the other thing is that they simply get reinfected when they're 560 00:46:14.199 --> 00:46:16.719 released back into the wild. But there are vaccine trials going on now which 561 00:46:16.760 --> 00:46:20.960 seem to be successful, and that might help take some of the pressure off. 562 00:46:21.280 --> 00:46:25.239 But again, unless we remove the address the root cause of the problem, 563 00:46:25.280 --> 00:46:31.039 which is habitat loss, increasing drought, climate change, those factors, 564 00:46:32.119 --> 00:46:36.679 you're just putting a band aid on the problem really, right, And that 565 00:46:36.719 --> 00:46:40.679 of course brings me to probably sort of the most important and almost closing question 566 00:46:40.880 --> 00:46:45.119 of the hour, which is, you know, what can we do? 567 00:46:45.400 --> 00:46:50.559 Ultimately we're talking about systemic problems, large scale problems that have to do with 568 00:46:51.000 --> 00:46:53.280 industry, that have to do with capitalism, that have to do you know, 569 00:46:53.320 --> 00:46:57.519 they're so baked into what it means to be a human being on this 570 00:46:57.599 --> 00:47:02.719 planet, which is to say, Adelai, you know, have these terrible 571 00:47:02.840 --> 00:47:09.079 impacts on our wild ecology. I'm curious from a I mean, I hate 572 00:47:09.079 --> 00:47:14.280 to even do this but from an individual perspective, other than vote, you 573 00:47:14.320 --> 00:47:16.800 know, other than than work to try and make sure that we are making, 574 00:47:16.920 --> 00:47:22.880 you know, meaningful systemic changes. What can people do m It's it's 575 00:47:22.920 --> 00:47:28.239 a really big question, and it's it's I don't really know what the answer 576 00:47:28.440 --> 00:47:32.239 is. I mean, we really need to make sure that we're providing more 577 00:47:32.280 --> 00:47:37.239 habitat for species, you know, protecting our trees. I just think he's 578 00:47:37.280 --> 00:47:40.760 such an important thing. And you know, the city, Adelaide, the 579 00:47:40.800 --> 00:47:44.679 city I live closest to, is actually one of the few cities. It's 580 00:47:44.679 --> 00:47:47.239 the only city I'm aware of where koalas are actually moving into the suburbs. 581 00:47:47.519 --> 00:47:52.679 And that's because I say that I love Adelaide. Like I've traveled Australia and 582 00:47:52.719 --> 00:47:54.320 I you know, everybody goes to Sydney and to Melbourne, and I love 583 00:47:54.360 --> 00:47:57.119 them both. And you know, I've been to Perth and I've been to 584 00:47:57.159 --> 00:47:59.719 Brisbane. But when I when I was in Adelaide, I was like, 585 00:48:00.039 --> 00:48:02.440 what a charming city that everybody I talked to you from the US is like, 586 00:48:02.440 --> 00:48:07.400 oh, I've never been there. Yeah. Yeah. And in Adelaide 587 00:48:07.440 --> 00:48:13.320 you can see koala's in the streets. That is so cool. I love 588 00:48:13.360 --> 00:48:15.679 that so much. So this really is a function. You know, I 589 00:48:15.719 --> 00:48:19.079 often talk to people about like here in the US, it's like put a 590 00:48:19.119 --> 00:48:22.960 freaking bat box up in your backyard, a hummingbird feeder on your balcony, 591 00:48:23.039 --> 00:48:28.199 Like, why not make sure that your trees are healthy and happy and provide 592 00:48:28.199 --> 00:48:31.559 habitat on your own problem? Yeah, yeah, just providing a minimum level 593 00:48:31.559 --> 00:48:36.440 of tree cover. You know. I really it's so easy for developers just 594 00:48:36.480 --> 00:48:38.199 to cut down trees and go, oh, I'll just plant some new ones. 595 00:48:38.239 --> 00:48:43.599 But those trees are not going to be fulfilling their ecological function for another 596 00:48:44.119 --> 00:48:47.239 twenty thirty, fifty, eighty hundred years. You know, We've we've got 597 00:48:47.320 --> 00:48:52.239 trees in our cities that are, you know, two or three hundred years 598 00:48:52.239 --> 00:48:55.000 old. You can't cut them down and think that you can replace them. 599 00:48:55.119 --> 00:49:00.760 You have to protect them, and we have to be improved having our tree 600 00:49:00.800 --> 00:49:06.840 cover. We've already removed so much treecover. We're losing species of birds um 601 00:49:07.119 --> 00:49:09.800 that you know, they're just they're just hanging on as residual species. Really, 602 00:49:09.800 --> 00:49:15.000 they're going to start disappearing in the next few years unless we increase their 603 00:49:15.000 --> 00:49:17.320 habitat and increase tree cover. So we need to be doing everything we can 604 00:49:17.400 --> 00:49:22.239 to increase the forests and the native plants that go with the forest, you 605 00:49:22.280 --> 00:49:25.400 know, and and the other habitats as well. It's really got to become 606 00:49:25.400 --> 00:49:30.519 a big priority wherever we live. You know, even if you live in 607 00:49:30.559 --> 00:49:35.039 an apartment, at least have something growing on your balcony, provide some habitat 608 00:49:35.119 --> 00:49:38.800 for something not just yourself. Yeah, I have. I have milkweed on 609 00:49:38.840 --> 00:49:43.119 my balcony. Like literally, I'm on the fourth floor in like a concrete 610 00:49:43.199 --> 00:49:46.639 jungle right now, and I've got milkweed on my balcony. And you know, 611 00:49:47.079 --> 00:49:52.000 seasonally, I've got monarchs butterflies that are like hatching on my balcony. 612 00:49:52.000 --> 00:49:55.599 It's very cool, Like it's not that hard to do, Yeah, and 613 00:49:55.960 --> 00:49:59.519 we just have to kind of make the effort. So, you know, 614 00:49:59.559 --> 00:50:02.360 this course leads me. I always close my show with the same two big 615 00:50:02.440 --> 00:50:06.639 questions, and this, of course leads me, I think, pretty seamlessly 616 00:50:07.000 --> 00:50:09.639 into those big picture questions. And you as somebody who obviously your most recent 617 00:50:09.639 --> 00:50:14.719 book is about koalas, but you've written, you know, all about natural 618 00:50:14.760 --> 00:50:22.280 history, all about conservation, all about science and kind of wildlife from the 619 00:50:22.360 --> 00:50:25.639 extinct to the extent. So I'm curious, you know, how you might 620 00:50:25.960 --> 00:50:30.079 approach these final two questions and just get ready because the kind of a big 621 00:50:30.079 --> 00:50:35.480 picture. Okay, okay, So when you think about the future in whatever 622 00:50:35.639 --> 00:50:43.599 context feels relevant to you, whether it be personal, whether it be communal, 623 00:50:43.679 --> 00:50:49.480 familial, or you know, community level, country level, global, 624 00:50:49.639 --> 00:50:52.440 cosmic, whatever. Number one, what is the thing that's keeping you up 625 00:50:52.480 --> 00:50:57.000 the most at night that you're most concerned about. Maybe you're you know, 626 00:50:57.039 --> 00:51:00.800 feeling worried or even a bit pessimistic or cynical. And then on the flip 627 00:51:00.840 --> 00:51:04.840 side, so that we do end on a slightly more positive note, where 628 00:51:04.880 --> 00:51:10.360 are you finding your optimism? What are you like genuinely authentically looking forward to. 629 00:51:13.719 --> 00:51:17.719 I think the thing that keeps me awake most at night is the corrupting 630 00:51:17.800 --> 00:51:27.000 influence of extreme wealth on our democracies and our governments. I think that worries 631 00:51:27.039 --> 00:51:31.000 me the influence of a very few, a very small number of people with 632 00:51:31.039 --> 00:51:36.880 a lot of money who are influencing the way our democracies run and the decisions 633 00:51:36.920 --> 00:51:43.679 that are being made and the consequent terrible impacts that are being reached upon our 634 00:51:43.800 --> 00:51:45.440 environment. That don't need to be there. We've got the solutions, we 635 00:51:45.519 --> 00:51:51.599 know how to fix these problems. We can make life better for everyone if 636 00:51:51.639 --> 00:51:57.440 we adopt more sustainable economic models, and we're not doing it because there are 637 00:51:58.119 --> 00:52:01.639 wealthy vested interests blocking that. So that's the thing that keeps me awake at 638 00:52:01.719 --> 00:52:07.400 night. The thing I drive most comfort from, I suppose, is the 639 00:52:08.440 --> 00:52:15.400 grassroots community action and the work that local communities can do to improve their local 640 00:52:15.519 --> 00:52:19.360 environment and the big changes they can make. So you know, we're seeing 641 00:52:19.400 --> 00:52:23.760 a revolution in finally in solar energy uptake in Australia, and most of that's 642 00:52:23.760 --> 00:52:30.679 been driven by individual households rather than governments, so that those sort of movements 643 00:52:30.920 --> 00:52:35.519 you can you can you know, we only have a very small individual power, 644 00:52:36.159 --> 00:52:38.320 but if we all do a little bit, it makes a big difference. 645 00:52:38.320 --> 00:52:43.119 So we don't need everybody to do one hundred percent of the right thing. 646 00:52:43.159 --> 00:52:45.679 We just need and we don't need a few people to do one hundred 647 00:52:45.679 --> 00:52:47.039 percent of the right thing. We need everybody to do a little bit of 648 00:52:47.079 --> 00:52:51.960 the right thing. So if we all do our bit as much as we 649 00:52:52.000 --> 00:52:55.639 can, it might not be perfect, but I think that in the end, 650 00:52:55.920 --> 00:53:00.280 sheer force of numbers will will you know, go a long way to 651 00:53:00.320 --> 00:53:06.800 helping this situation. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's it's we often think 652 00:53:06.840 --> 00:53:09.239 about this need for collective action and collective impact, but I think what you 653 00:53:09.360 --> 00:53:13.039 just said really points to the fact that, like, we don't even have 654 00:53:13.119 --> 00:53:15.639 to do it together like we should. We should, we should be working 655 00:53:15.639 --> 00:53:20.599 together, for sure, but also just doing things on our own can make 656 00:53:20.639 --> 00:53:24.840 a huge difference when when it's happening in the aggregate. Yeah. Yeah, 657 00:53:24.880 --> 00:53:30.519 so you can't afford to give up hope, You've got to keep trying because 658 00:53:30.519 --> 00:53:35.840 that's the only option we have. I agree wholeheartedly. Well, gosh, 659 00:53:35.920 --> 00:53:39.679 okay, everybody. The book is Koala, A Natural History and an Uncertain 660 00:53:39.760 --> 00:53:45.239 Future by doctor Danielle Clode. Danielle, thank you so much for enlightening us 661 00:53:45.280 --> 00:53:49.320 today. Thank you for having me. It's been a real pleasure absolutely, 662 00:53:49.320 --> 00:53:52.320 and everyone listening. Thank you for coming back week after week. I'm really 663 00:53:52.320 --> 00:53:55.880 looking forward to the next time we all get together to talk. Already