1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:05,120 The Woodcliffe Hotel and Spa. Sometimes you forgot somebody, or you're thinking, 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:07,080 I don't know what to get them. I don't know what to get them. 3 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:09,839 You're going to see them after the holiday, but before the New year. 4 00:00:10,199 --> 00:00:14,960 Get them a Woodcliffe Hotel and SPA gift card. Very easy to do. 5 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:18,800 You can do it right on their website at Woodcliffe HOTELSPA dot com. 6 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:24,039 The spa is phenomenal, next level. Spend the day, get a treatment, 7 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:28,120 hang out in the Tranquility room, have a nice beverage and unwind. 8 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:32,560 Let all the holiday stress just drip from your body. An overnight's stay and 9 00:00:32,719 --> 00:00:36,840 great winter packages as well, maybe for a future stay. And the restaurant 10 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:42,439 exceptional, great wine selection. You're gonna love it. Even live music and 11 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:46,520 a spectacular New Year's Eve party that you can find out more about at Woodcliffe 12 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:51,640 Hotel SPA dot com. From the Mac of All Trade Studio in Fairport and 13 00:00:51,799 --> 00:00:57,759 driven by Victor Chrysler Dots jeep Ram, It's Bilified the Bill Moran Podcast. 14 00:01:10,799 --> 00:01:14,159 Well, hello and welcome. Thanks for getting your pot on, thanks for 15 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:17,799 telling a friend. That's how we spread the word about the pirate ship. 16 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:22,200 Today a nice one on one and I've been excited to do this for a 17 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:25,879 while. It was always a big fan. Gary Craig is. I'll just 18 00:01:26,079 --> 00:01:30,239 read what they have in the Democrat and Chronicle website. He is a member 19 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:34,879 of the Democrat and Chronicles Watchdog team and focuses on public safety and criminal justice. 20 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:40,799 Has worked in Rochester newspapers since the early nineties or nineteen ninety covering city 21 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:47,319 hall politics federal courts before joining the newspaper's investigative team. He has won state 22 00:01:47,439 --> 00:01:53,280 national investigative writing awards. He also has a website, Garycraig writer dot com, 23 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:57,079 and his book seven Million is about one of the biggest and most mysterious 24 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:00,280 heists of our aides, the Brinx robbery. Here which happened? What year? 25 00:02:00,319 --> 00:02:04,680 Gary? Give you the date? January fifth, nineteen ninety three. 26 00:02:04,799 --> 00:02:09,280 Nineteen ninety three, Okay, so I would have been I think I had 27 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:15,479 taken a sabbatical from Saint John Fisher for that year at the request of my 28 00:02:15,599 --> 00:02:22,800 father, and then and I wound up working in radio midnight to six. 29 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:27,439 It was the greatest training ground ever. Yeah. I used to call payphones 30 00:02:27,479 --> 00:02:30,280 and ask for the weather down in the like the worst parts of Poughkeepsie, 31 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:34,759 That's where I grew up, made and cherry, and it would where like 32 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,039 all the drug dealers and pim's hung out and they would answer the phone in 33 00:02:38,039 --> 00:02:40,120 the middle of the night. Oh that's it's so funny talking about payphones because 34 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:45,680 I used to. Yeah, I was still of the era where we would 35 00:02:45,759 --> 00:02:47,599 dash in court to try to beat each other to the payphones to call the 36 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:51,520 office to break a story about it. Yeah, happened at court, right, 37 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:55,000 Sure, boy, isn't that funny? How technology is? I have 38 00:02:55,039 --> 00:03:00,719 so many questions to ask you, but let's start here. How does it 39 00:03:00,759 --> 00:03:04,120 all begin for you? Well, let me go with this. What did 40 00:03:04,159 --> 00:03:09,039 your parents do? My mother stayed home with the kids, and my dad 41 00:03:09,159 --> 00:03:14,120 was both a pilot and a professional photographer. He did both. He was 42 00:03:14,159 --> 00:03:16,280 a pilot, Yeah, he was both military, then he was commercial, 43 00:03:16,319 --> 00:03:20,879 and then he was actually uh, then he was private corporate. Did you 44 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:23,800 move around a lot as a pilot? No? No, I mean by 45 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:27,680 the time I was the second wave of children we had. I have three 46 00:03:27,719 --> 00:03:34,280 brothers, and my older brothers are thirteen and ten years older. And by 47 00:03:34,319 --> 00:03:38,719 the time he was doing some commercial flying when I was born, and then 48 00:03:38,719 --> 00:03:43,240 he went corporate and we moved to Winston Salem where Rgie Reynolds Wasn't he corporate 49 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:45,240 for them for a while, Okay? And I like to joke my two 50 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:47,400 older brothers. One it was a pilot for life. He's retired out of 51 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:50,560 the other is a great photographer, does and other stuff. So I was 52 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:53,000 sort of left without anything, you know. Yeah, but I don't have 53 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:58,800 anything left to screat. That's funny because my uncle was a pilot nom and 54 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:03,400 then was a pilot for Western Airlines and then they got bought out by Delta, 55 00:04:04,039 --> 00:04:08,159 and then he was the president of the union. I spend the summer 56 00:04:08,159 --> 00:04:11,159 with him. He lives in Park City. That's great. Yeah. And 57 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:15,599 my brother was the old Southern airline, Piedmont Airlines, and they got okay, 58 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:19,040 US Airways. So you're a Southern guy. Yeah. I'm born in 59 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:23,120 Virginia, grew up in North Carolina, worked in Virginia, then came here. 60 00:04:23,319 --> 00:04:27,399 Yeah, so that that's kind of a is it was a culture shock 61 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,360 coming to the Northeast a little bit, or at least weather shock. Yeah. 62 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:34,360 The weather or the weather might have been more of a shock. And 63 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:38,399 but I I've acclimated. I I don't to me, it's you know, 64 00:04:38,439 --> 00:04:41,000 the cold in the snow. Don't bother me that, I guess probably what 65 00:04:41,079 --> 00:04:44,759 bothers me most if it's March and April and it's still gray, and yes, 66 00:04:44,959 --> 00:04:47,399 south right spring has come. Yes, let me be one thing real 67 00:04:47,519 --> 00:04:51,199 quick, if you don't mind, I'm yeah. Also, wonder if I 68 00:04:51,240 --> 00:05:00,319 needed to know? So? But were you? Did you always? I 69 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:05,199 wanted to say the way I would describe you as your storyteller? You tell 70 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:11,519 people's stories. So was that always something inside you? It's interesting. I 71 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:15,600 love to write as a kid. I mean I wrote. I wrote for 72 00:05:15,759 --> 00:05:19,079 high school newspapers and college newspapers, and edited the college newspaper one year. 73 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:23,519 And then where did you? Where was that? It's a small college in 74 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:28,879 northern uh and north of Richmond, Randolph Making College, which made the Division 75 00:05:28,879 --> 00:05:33,079 three semifinals this past weekend, but they got crushed by Courtland in football football. 76 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:35,680 Yeah, I heard Courtland. It did very very well. It was 77 00:05:35,759 --> 00:05:42,879 ugly. But then I came out of school and and realized I wasn't going 78 00:05:42,879 --> 00:05:47,360 to write the great American novel soon if ever, and and went into newspaper 79 00:05:47,399 --> 00:05:51,519 in a small Farmville, Virginia, a small newspaper started there, and in 80 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:55,759 the in the Northern Virginia. Then here in the process, I actually found 81 00:05:55,759 --> 00:05:59,720 that I loved the reporting almost as much as the writing. I loved the 82 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:01,920 not even more. Some days. I love the the interview and the ability 83 00:06:01,959 --> 00:06:05,279 to meet people. I love documents. I can I can live in a 84 00:06:05,319 --> 00:06:10,560 stack of documents for hours trying to find the one seed of a news story. 85 00:06:11,199 --> 00:06:14,920 So is there there's a bit of detective in you? Would that be 86 00:06:14,959 --> 00:06:17,480 fair to say? I think so. I didn't. I didn't realize that 87 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:21,480 until I got in the newspaper. Uh, and the yeah, that's that's 88 00:06:21,519 --> 00:06:26,600 probably safe to say. Yeah. So the plan was to be the great 89 00:06:26,639 --> 00:06:30,120 American novelist. But then you you there's clearly a passion for writing, and 90 00:06:30,199 --> 00:06:34,279 clearly a passion for finding. But you kind of like the research and the 91 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:42,160 finding that that thing that we don't know very very much. I uh, 92 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,120 that's it exactly. And and and the more you do it, especially with 93 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:48,399 documents and interviews too, but especially with documents, you get to the point 94 00:06:48,439 --> 00:06:56,160 where I think you're able to find that that nugget in five hundred pages without 95 00:06:56,199 --> 00:06:59,199 having to read all five hundred pages. You get better at knowing well, 96 00:06:59,199 --> 00:07:00,800 well, yeah, I always say with anything, it's reps in life, 97 00:07:00,879 --> 00:07:03,439 right, that's it exactly rep That's exactly what it is. Yeah, and 98 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:05,680 it's the more you do it, the more you do it, the more 99 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:10,879 you do it. So what is kind Who was the biggest influence, let's 100 00:07:10,879 --> 00:07:14,079 say, on you on your career. Was there anybody as you went through 101 00:07:14,079 --> 00:07:17,439 that you went, well, I really admire what this person did. Or 102 00:07:17,959 --> 00:07:21,759 I mean it could even be your parents in terms of just being supportive and 103 00:07:21,759 --> 00:07:26,399 stuff. No, I mean, yeah, the family for sure, probably 104 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:30,240 to be honestly, the editor at the daily I worked with in Northern Virginia, 105 00:07:30,319 --> 00:07:36,439 Craig Nesbit, who actually left newspaper oddly enough, because he, as 106 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:40,199 I recall, and this is after I'd left him come up here and he 107 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:44,800 was working elsewhere. He was like encouraged by the owner of a newspaper to 108 00:07:44,839 --> 00:07:46,160 do a hit piece on somebody that the owner didn't like. And yeah, 109 00:07:46,199 --> 00:07:50,319 they did all the research and wasn't anything there. And the person was like, 110 00:07:50,399 --> 00:07:55,279 still, yeah, that wasn't your staff find something dirty on this person? 111 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:59,560 And this guy, this guy was the most hard driving, hardcore news 112 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:01,000 or. And I think that's where a lot of the reporting. I enjoyed 113 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:05,040 it before that, but working under Craig, he was just he was a 114 00:08:05,079 --> 00:08:09,319 mentor, just hard you know, that old term newsman, but hardcore newsman. 115 00:08:09,439 --> 00:08:11,560 He was that person. I just I learned so much from him and 116 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:16,199 found how much I really enjoyed doing it. Yeah, because it is. 117 00:08:16,319 --> 00:08:18,560 It takes a lot. Because I was thinking, like, there's a bit 118 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:24,560 of Colombo there as you're digging through things, and you know, I gotta 119 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:30,240 think that maybe doing that kind of research, seeing things, seeing patterns of 120 00:08:30,279 --> 00:08:33,440 behavior with people, Yes, maybe you have even helped you as a parent. 121 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:37,360 When your kids tried to pull one over your it's probably best to ask 122 00:08:37,519 --> 00:08:43,120 them about that. I was just talking to our oldest daughter last night on 123 00:08:43,159 --> 00:08:46,399 the phone and she was talking about stuff, and then I was asking a 124 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:50,279 number of probably half ear you know. Some of the questions were relevant, 125 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:54,679 some were not relevant. And she started laughing and she talked about her somebody 126 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:58,679 in her life who says, you know, you always ask too many questions, 127 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,279 and she said, I got that from your dad. Yeah, I 128 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:03,759 was asking questions that had nothing to do with really what we were talking about. 129 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:07,519 Yeah, but it sometimes gives you the uh, well, it opens 130 00:09:07,519 --> 00:09:11,080 people up. Yes, right, it's disarming in a way. Yeah, 131 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:13,240 And you know, in interviewing what you know from doing it. I mean 132 00:09:13,279 --> 00:09:18,120 there is kind of an art to interviewing and you I mean there's different interviews. 133 00:09:18,159 --> 00:09:20,360 I mean I do actually a lot of arts reporting too, because I 134 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:22,440 enjoy it and we don't really have much of an art staff anymore. And 135 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:26,440 so you know, if I sit down with like recently Danielle Ponder or somebody 136 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:31,039 else in doing interview, that's very different from if I'm sitting down with somebody 137 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:33,960 who I know, you know, built you know, company X out of 138 00:09:35,039 --> 00:09:37,159 hundreds of thousands of dollars. So you're really, you know, you're framing 139 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:43,240 each one differently. Well, yeah, I would think that you have such 140 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:46,519 a calm demeanor, nice way about you that I would think talking to you 141 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:52,240 would be very easy. But I also wonder for you, and I think 142 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:58,960 I know the answer. But seeing some of the ugly side of humanity, 143 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,799 right, I mean, you're seeing sometimes people at the worst, people who 144 00:10:01,799 --> 00:10:07,279 have gone through really tough things. It does it give you ever change your 145 00:10:07,399 --> 00:10:13,399 perspective on mankind humanity? Like did it change your do you distrust at all 146 00:10:13,639 --> 00:10:18,759 more? Or you more let's say cautious. I'm probably more cautious. I 147 00:10:18,759 --> 00:10:20,799 mean, you know that the thing of reporting is the old adage. You 148 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:24,039 know, if your mother says she loves you, check it out. So 149 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:28,639 there's you know, so there's always that sort of level of you you're gonna 150 00:10:28,639 --> 00:10:30,600 have to prove. How do you do that? I don't know that. 151 00:10:30,759 --> 00:10:31,440 Yeah, I don't know that. Well, we'll let me say this. 152 00:10:31,519 --> 00:10:35,919 Let me ask you this. When your mom says I love all of you 153 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:39,200 equally, yes, right, Because I have three sons, my youngest son 154 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:41,720 will always say to me, come on, exactly, come on, dad. 155 00:10:41,759 --> 00:10:43,559 You know I'm your favorite. Stay away from that conversation. Yes, 156 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,759 this is the conversation you stay away from. However, as a reporter, 157 00:10:46,919 --> 00:10:50,279 did you ever try to kind of figure that out on your own? I 158 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:54,120 never know. I never did. So how many kids in your family growing 159 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:58,120 up? Well, I I lost my parents actually at an early age. 160 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:01,399 So oh I'm sorry, Oh no, no, thank no, thank you. 161 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:03,559 I mean it's a long time ago, as I was eight years old, 162 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:09,559 but so two brothers older brothers thirteen and ten years older, and then 163 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:11,759 my parents died in a plane crash. But it's funny I still love to 164 00:11:11,759 --> 00:11:15,360 fly, have no problem with it. And the younger brother was on the 165 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:20,519 plane too, So so I really from eight years old, I had yeah, 166 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:26,039 pretty much two older brothers. And the who raised you actually my oldest 167 00:11:26,039 --> 00:11:28,679 brother he was you know, I was eight, he was twenty one. 168 00:11:28,759 --> 00:11:35,080 He got married shortly thereafter, and so they had an eight year old son 169 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:37,080 to start with. And so yeah, so they they raised me, and 170 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:43,679 uh yeah, and yeah, I can never be thankful enough. That's amazing. 171 00:11:43,759 --> 00:11:46,600 Yeah, no, they're great. Just a dear older brother. He's 172 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:50,080 the one that flew. He's been retired, he keeps seventy seven and he's 173 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:54,600 still training military people in flight simula. Yeah, and my uncle was doing 174 00:11:54,639 --> 00:11:58,679 that too for a while. Yeah that's a great gig. And uh so 175 00:11:58,759 --> 00:12:01,720 yeah, so that's so. So it's weird. I mean, it's like 176 00:12:01,039 --> 00:12:05,559 what res' hearts meat answer with my mother question, I may have asked her 177 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:09,519 if yes, I'm sorry. I didn't know what I was stepping into. 178 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:11,279 But I finally, don't worry. Don't worry. I know, I find 179 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:16,679 this very very interesting because I'm thinking I have a son who's twenty one. 180 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:20,240 I wouldn't trust him with an eight year old and maybe my brother at that 181 00:12:20,279 --> 00:12:24,759 age, who knows, and well I didn't know better. Sometimes I think 182 00:12:24,759 --> 00:12:30,840 that you'll know this probably from all the stories you've done over a lifetime. 183 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:35,440 People rise to the occasion, oh very much. And yeah he's solid, 184 00:12:35,759 --> 00:12:39,639 salt of the earth, right, wonderful person, which means that she probably 185 00:12:39,639 --> 00:12:43,360 had really solid parents. Yes, yeah, I believe. I mean and 186 00:12:43,399 --> 00:12:46,279 in my middle brother, I say middle because of the three of us, 187 00:12:46,879 --> 00:12:50,399 it's sort of the family or he lives lives in Costa Rican now the family 188 00:12:50,519 --> 00:12:54,039 archivest and he's constantly sending me old photos and history of stuff that I don't 189 00:12:54,039 --> 00:12:58,519 really remember sure my age. Yeah wow, yeah so that's yeah, so 190 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:03,440 that yeah, so that's and it's against something I don't mind talking about. 191 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:05,679 If it comes up in conversation, I talk about it, but it's not 192 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:07,120 something by the way. Yeah, no, no, this is something that 193 00:13:07,519 --> 00:13:13,240 did you mind if I ask more questions? Because I really find something like 194 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:22,440 that really forges who you are? Does that make you more independent? Like 195 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:26,200 you're kind of on your own? Like at twenty one, now you're gonna 196 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:31,200 raise your and I obviously everything worked out right, twenty one year old brothers 197 00:13:31,279 --> 00:13:37,759 raising you but that's not mom and dad to guide. It's not dad playing 198 00:13:37,799 --> 00:13:41,120 in the backyard. There are certain things you just I guess you intuitively know 199 00:13:41,279 --> 00:13:46,519 you become a parent. It's almost like intuitive it's a different it's a different 200 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:52,639 thing than probably you're still my younger brother and you annoy me, right, 201 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:54,639 and then not that your kids don't annoy you, that's not but it's a 202 00:13:54,679 --> 00:14:00,120 different and uh, I mean where you kind of on your own, is 203 00:14:00,159 --> 00:14:05,519 that what made you this this guy who goes and finds answers to things. 204 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,120 Because yet you'll only really had you to rew eye on to figure it out. 205 00:14:09,919 --> 00:14:13,480 That's a good question. I think it did breed independence. But at 206 00:14:13,519 --> 00:14:20,120 the same time, I think, yeah, my brother and sister in law 207 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:24,200 were as solid as parents from day one of having to take me, and 208 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,720 they didn't have to. They chose to take me in as has you know, 209 00:14:26,759 --> 00:14:30,759 I'd been their own child. Year later in life. Sure, I 210 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,840 mean my brother started, I mean he was flying for the airlines and it's 211 00:14:33,879 --> 00:14:37,159 early twenty. He was always very he was he was teaching flying when, 212 00:14:37,279 --> 00:14:41,320 you know, because he learned from my dad teaching flying when he was probably 213 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:43,039 twenty. And then a couple of years later, he was already with the 214 00:14:43,039 --> 00:14:46,320 airlines, so he was already on a very sort of professional adult route, 215 00:14:46,639 --> 00:14:52,480 right, right, And so I think there is that probably that independence which 216 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:54,600 which I thought about, do you mam a good point that I think comes 217 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:58,679 from that. But at the same time, I wasn't really alone, and 218 00:14:58,679 --> 00:15:01,440 I still had a very solid familial structure, yes, right, and people 219 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:05,240 you could count on and be there. And you know, there's a lot 220 00:15:05,279 --> 00:15:09,919 of bumps and things that happened growing up that's inevitable. I mean, you 221 00:15:09,919 --> 00:15:13,320 know, that's a it's a you know, it's clearly a tragic situation and 222 00:15:13,759 --> 00:15:16,399 your nerves are a frayed in the outset, but you sort of and again 223 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:18,320 this is from an eight year old memory. Yeah, yeah, sure, 224 00:15:18,399 --> 00:15:22,840 you push the wood and then it became really a fairly I think typical life 225 00:15:22,879 --> 00:15:28,000 from there on. Yeah. So that's that's an impressive I f I I. 226 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:33,759 I don't know, there's something about that that I find uh comforting in 227 00:15:33,799 --> 00:15:35,919 a way, that that family comes together, that you're you're an eight year 228 00:15:35,919 --> 00:15:39,720 old boy, you're you're lost and you lost your younger brother. That that 229 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,240 is chaotic. I don't know how, you know, just to even get 230 00:15:43,279 --> 00:15:48,039 through that, and then to be twenty one and trying to cope with it 231 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,919 yourself, and now I'm going to guide you along the way. That's pretty 232 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:56,200 may downside. And I get reminded of us sometimes from people because because I 233 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:58,879 did, I think, because I had such a solid sort of landing spot 234 00:16:00,039 --> 00:16:06,720 of land on is I am not as sympathetic sometimes as I probably should be 235 00:16:06,759 --> 00:16:08,679 to people who have had similar events in their life and have gone off the 236 00:16:08,759 --> 00:16:11,399 rails. Yes, right, right, right right, Yes, I do 237 00:16:11,519 --> 00:16:15,039 understand that. And I've had people tell me, I mean, including my 238 00:16:15,039 --> 00:16:17,120 own children, like Dad, you know you were you were really lucky, 239 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,720 you know, you really had that that foundation you had when this happened to 240 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,919 you, and not everybody had that, And so I've been trying to be 241 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:26,480 better about that even at this age. That's interesting because I always think, 242 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:30,720 I mean, you're right, right, you can go two paths, yes, 243 00:16:30,879 --> 00:16:33,360 right, some people can't cope at all. Drugs, you try to 244 00:16:33,519 --> 00:16:37,960 escape, right, and then who knows, you go off the rails exactly 245 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:41,759 exactly. And then the other is that you kind of got this inner guidance 246 00:16:41,799 --> 00:16:45,919 system. And I always think, intuitively, we know, oh yeah, 247 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,559 I don't I mean, I really do. I really believe that all of 248 00:16:48,679 --> 00:16:52,759 us know and if you want to call it your soul, if you believe 249 00:16:52,799 --> 00:16:57,039 in God or whatever, and well, I can't. I wake up every 250 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,200 day and I go, there's got to be a I are intelligence somewhere, 251 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:04,599 because I often thought about did I rotate the earth properly this morning to make 252 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:07,079 it? You know what I mean? It's still hanging out there, the 253 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:11,279 moon, the sun's up, you know, maybe it's cloudy, but I 254 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:14,680 that I mean those things so to me, and I always go, there's 255 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:19,319 something in there that we know, we just know, and uh, hopefully 256 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:25,000 you listen to that and don't and don't and don't let anybody put out that 257 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:26,720 fire. You know. Oh yeah, that's a great way to put it. 258 00:17:26,759 --> 00:17:29,480 I mean, because there will be a lot of people that, you 259 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:32,640 know, whether it's a professional, personal, emotional, want to you know, 260 00:17:32,759 --> 00:17:36,200 squelch the fire. Well, it's something that I always say to people. 261 00:17:36,759 --> 00:17:41,880 If you have an idea, don't don't tell anybody. And I would 262 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:48,319 always try to use the the Biblical And I think my father, who has 263 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:51,640 a doctor in philosophy, gets annoyed a little bit when I say this, 264 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:55,200 but because he says, I quote it wrong from the Bible, but when 265 00:17:55,279 --> 00:17:56,759 Jesus would heal people, we would say go forth and tell no one. 266 00:17:56,799 --> 00:18:03,039 And the thinking behind them, in my mind is because if you came in 267 00:18:03,079 --> 00:18:06,240 here and go, hey, I met Jesus and he cured me, and 268 00:18:06,279 --> 00:18:08,200 I'll go, oh, you know, Gary, I mean some people, 269 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:11,039 it comes back in about two weeks and you know what I mean. And 270 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:15,000 so then the doubt comes in your head. And it was funny because my 271 00:18:15,039 --> 00:18:19,200 mom just had hip replacement surgery yesterday and she's already up and walking. She 272 00:18:19,279 --> 00:18:25,240 calls me last night and said, you know, somebody was telling me that 273 00:18:25,279 --> 00:18:29,960 the guy in the condo across the way had the same surgery and it's taken 274 00:18:30,039 --> 00:18:32,640 him. Oh he's been in so much pain for three weeks. And I 275 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:36,839 said, that's why you just don't listen, because if you do, it's 276 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:40,079 the doubt no matter what it is in life, you know, And I 277 00:18:40,079 --> 00:18:42,880 think for you to just I'm sure you had people go oh, Gary, 278 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:45,880 I'm so sorry, like when you're a little boy, and how are you 279 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:49,759 going to do it? And you could really go one of two ways. 280 00:18:51,079 --> 00:18:52,799 No, that's very true, and again, a lot of it is a 281 00:18:52,799 --> 00:18:56,839 blur. I mean I can't really. I mean I can remember some of 282 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:00,400 the day it happened, and but like you know, I was out of 283 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,000 school for probably two weeks. I can tell you nothing about what it was 284 00:19:03,039 --> 00:19:07,200 like going back to school. I have no recollection of that whatsoever. Sometimes 285 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:11,359 that's protective in the right way. And then I also think like a lot 286 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:17,839 of times, you know, events like that, they they can change the 287 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:22,599 course of your life. But today is today, right, Today is today, 288 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:29,319 and we have to remember the present moment and that happened then, and 289 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:33,359 it shouldn't it does since the memory, but we bring that with us. 290 00:19:33,559 --> 00:19:36,920 Yes, we don't have to know exactly the idea of put it down or 291 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,640 as some people say, let go and like god and you know that that 292 00:19:40,759 --> 00:19:44,880 kind of thing that that's what it means. Great words, not easy, 293 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,519 But I always believe that's the real practice. Oh I'm not real practice for 294 00:19:48,559 --> 00:19:52,519 these very reasons. I'm not one that's big on excuse making. I mean, 295 00:19:52,559 --> 00:19:56,519 it's not that I don't accept when people you have something falls, it 296 00:19:56,559 --> 00:19:59,920 goes awry and they have early reasons. But if it's if it's a t 297 00:20:00,039 --> 00:20:03,400 friend in life. Did you ever watch Justified? The show Justified. No 298 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:06,440 I didn't. This is getting off track, but no, no, no, 299 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:08,839 I still love it's one of the great I highly recommend FAX start the 300 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:15,000 first season. It's amazing. It's about a federal marshal and he there's you 301 00:20:15,039 --> 00:20:18,000 know, arrest this guy one day or he's taking him and I forgot maybe 302 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,359 it's some warrant he's got to be still arrest him and the guy's complaining he's 303 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,680 taking him in the guy's complaining about you know, all these people that rubbed 304 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:27,880 him the wrong way during the day and all I'm paraphrase, but basically, 305 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:30,160 you know the marshal, the Raylen Gibbons character system. You know, if 306 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,119 you wake up in the morning and you have a bad encounter with somebody, 307 00:20:33,599 --> 00:20:37,920 that person could be the asshole. If your whole day is bad encounters, 308 00:20:37,039 --> 00:20:41,559 you're the asshole. And it's just and I just you know they're there. 309 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:47,359 That's I have a hard time with people who constantly find bad rationales to do 310 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:51,400 bad things. Yep, they think it's good rational but yes, and getting 311 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:53,440 off track and no, no, you're you're kinda not. Because this goes 312 00:20:53,519 --> 00:20:59,200 right to something I say often and I try to tell even my sons. 313 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:03,519 This is that. It's momentum. So if I get up in the morning 314 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:07,359 and I stub my toe, God, yes and right, and then then 315 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:11,440 I go from there and let's say, all of a sudden, I drop 316 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,519 my toothbrush in the toilet, and it's all these minor things. And then 317 00:21:14,519 --> 00:21:18,039 I'm driving to work and I'm bam, I hit a deer. And I 318 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:23,160 know this sounds completely freaky, but I believe you did that. You did 319 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,119 that. Your brain's a magnet. You did that. You're on this wavelength 320 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:30,359 of of shitty things. Yes, and if you you control that. And 321 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,880 we don't want to believe it. We want to react to everybody else and 322 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:40,319 blame everybody else. And the show sounds amazing because I'm a big believer in 323 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,839 you can justify it. But but you know it's a great I can't. 324 00:21:45,039 --> 00:21:51,000 All you do is argue for your limitations, right, That's it. You 325 00:21:51,039 --> 00:21:55,880 know. With the work I do, I hear a lot of people rationalizing. 326 00:21:56,119 --> 00:22:00,000 I'm sure is there any stories over the years, So you wrote for 327 00:22:00,039 --> 00:22:04,359 the Democrat and Chronicle. You come from Virginia right then to hear and then 328 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,920 this is where life kind of you've decided to stay you're gonna make your home. 329 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:15,480 Yeah, we have yeah, yeah, And it was also The Rochester 330 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,319 at the time, I mean had the morning paper in the afternoon paper, 331 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,519 which I was not. I guess I was somewhat familiar with it. I 332 00:22:22,559 --> 00:22:26,000 don't remember in New York City which one came out in the afternoon, but 333 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:30,359 I was actually in the Poughkeepsie area. But I remember my family the all 334 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:33,359 tabloids were the big thing because they were easy to read on the train and 335 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:40,240 the subway and all that stuff. But yeah, I remember when the afternoon 336 00:22:40,319 --> 00:22:44,759 paper went away, Yes, I remember it. It was a really weird 337 00:22:44,759 --> 00:22:48,319 story, real quickly. Yes, So nineteen ninety two they merged the staffs 338 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:52,799 the TU the Times Union of the evening paper continued to exist until ninety seven, 339 00:22:52,839 --> 00:22:56,759 I think, but it was basically it was almost like the web. 340 00:22:56,799 --> 00:23:00,480 We would update news during the day, but it was large would have been 341 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,319 in the DNC in the morning. But we had a major, major party 342 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:10,759 in ninety seven at High Falls upstairs conference space, and I forgot the name 343 00:23:10,759 --> 00:23:12,319 of the restaurant that was the first one there that was really good on the 344 00:23:12,319 --> 00:23:18,200 lower level. And we had because the Ta the Rochester was once the headquarters 345 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,640 of Gannet. So we had corporate leaders coming from all over the country right 346 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:25,079 for this party, and we got we rented a coffin from Arleans, the 347 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:29,079 costume shop, and I layered it with historical tears because you know the TU 348 00:23:29,079 --> 00:23:33,240 when the pullups were for Attica coverage and seventy one. But so, good 349 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:37,680 friend Greg Levadis and I picked up the coffin from I think it was Arlene's. 350 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:42,440 I think they probably had fake coffins. And to get to the upper 351 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:48,240 space, we had to go through the downstairs outdoor restaurant and it was it 352 00:23:48,279 --> 00:23:52,920 was a beautiful sunny day and everybody was eating outside and we basically carrying this 353 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,279 what looks like a real coffin right between all of them and winding up the 354 00:23:56,319 --> 00:24:00,519 stairs. It gets it away exactly. We didn't we did, of course, 355 00:24:00,519 --> 00:24:04,599 we just played along. We didn't tell anybody was Yeah, ninety seven 356 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:11,680 I think was the final TU edition. Okay, now let's talk about some 357 00:24:11,799 --> 00:24:18,519 of your the stories you've covered. I'm sure you've met interesting people. You 358 00:24:18,559 --> 00:24:22,160 did the whole Axe murder one. Now I'm only familiar with the current version 359 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:26,960 of the stories, but you did a lot of investigating on that when you 360 00:24:26,039 --> 00:24:32,720 do these stories, sometimes you will meet someone who is i'll call them a 361 00:24:32,759 --> 00:24:37,160 survivor, or we'll call them a survivor. Do you ever stay in contact 362 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,920 over the years or check back just on a on a human level, just 363 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:45,759 because you kind of I can't imagine you don't get somewhat invested. No, 364 00:24:47,039 --> 00:24:52,319 that's very true. There there are definitely some that I do. It's it's 365 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:57,160 rare, to be honest, okay, because it's just I sadly there's so 366 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:02,240 many of them. But there's been the late Audrey Smith, who founded Families 367 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,480 and Friends of what was then Families and Friends of Murdered Children. Was the 368 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,640 original name with the last bad you know, not the last but you know 369 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,440 what was the record setting homicide year in Rochester until we had the most recent 370 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,319 which I guess I think it was ninety one, or it may have been 371 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,160 ninety three actually, And she founded that after losing her son, and I 372 00:25:18,559 --> 00:25:22,599 became good friends with Audrey. She died a number of years ago, as 373 00:25:22,599 --> 00:25:26,759 well as members of that group. I was often at their meetings, and 374 00:25:26,039 --> 00:25:29,640 there are you know a number of you know, people who've lost folks. 375 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,599 I stay in touch with her, you know, or they'll they'll they'll reach 376 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:34,400 out to me and just throw email or whatever and we'll catch up. But 377 00:25:36,279 --> 00:25:38,319 yeah, because I mean, you do a lot what what stories over the 378 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:44,480 years when you when you think back on a career that how many years would 379 00:25:44,519 --> 00:25:45,880 you say we'll go on? I mean, if I go back, I'm 380 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:51,039 forty forty two years and forty two years okay, So is there anyone that 381 00:25:51,319 --> 00:25:55,119 kind of jumps off the page in your memory? You know, it's really 382 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,160 weird. I mean I've done Uh, it was funny because I just threw 383 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,519 through a pile of newspapers this morning, because I've forgotten much more than I 384 00:26:00,559 --> 00:26:06,839 remember, and still to this day. My favorite story I've ever worked on 385 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,119 was actually my last. I was doing an investigative series with the Northern Virginia 386 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:15,359 paper. I worked for the smallest, smaller newspaper or small news. We 387 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:19,200 were not the smallest. And you try to condense this very much. It 388 00:26:19,279 --> 00:26:26,119 was about electromagnetic pulse testing by the Army in a Northern Virginia base. And 389 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,079 so what electromagnetic pulse is. If you see the day after some of those 390 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:36,759 nuclear holocaust movies, the nuclear bomb itself as part of its fallouts sets off, 391 00:26:36,759 --> 00:26:41,640 what's this electromagnetic pulse or may not be and what that cripples electronics? 392 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,559 Everywhere they found this out I think in the well they probably knew to a 393 00:26:44,559 --> 00:26:48,359 agree, but they really found out in the fifties with over above ground testing 394 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:52,039 in Hawaii. Before they shut that down at they just stop lights, everything 395 00:26:52,079 --> 00:26:55,680 went dead, you know, your radios, everything just stopped. And so 396 00:26:55,799 --> 00:27:02,720 in northern Virginia they had this base where they would football size zappers basically the 397 00:27:02,839 --> 00:27:06,400 length of football, and what they would do because they couldn't do real nuclear 398 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:11,079 testing anymore, and they would bring everything from tanks to transistor radios and they 399 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:17,079 would try to mimic with this big piece of equipment what electromagnetic pulses like, 400 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:21,440 and they would zap them and then they would quote harden the wiring the circuitry 401 00:27:21,519 --> 00:27:23,519 to a point where it would survive the electroc with the ideas it would survive. 402 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,400 Okay, so we can still communicate exactly the tanks will roll and everything. 403 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:34,079 Yeah. Well, the problem was, as well as zapping horizontally, 404 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:41,319 some of this power goes upward and some of the army officials discovered that it 405 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,279 was it could disrupt what are known flight is flight by wire aircraft with a 406 00:27:45,319 --> 00:27:48,839 lot of commercial arc and it was right in the flight corridor for what was 407 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,480 then National and what is now Reagan Airport. And they, a number of 408 00:27:52,519 --> 00:27:56,400 them tried their darn just to keep this secret. You know. Basically, 409 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,799 they had environmental tests, said hey, you got to be concerned, and 410 00:28:00,039 --> 00:28:04,160 and through some whistle blowers we got when I talk about I literally had which 411 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,079 were later stolen from my car after I moved to Rochester, which is a 412 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:12,960 whole other story. But thousands of pages of documents about this from whistleblowers and 413 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,039 freedom of information request everything, and I spent six months on this. It 414 00:28:17,079 --> 00:28:18,920 was it was just a blast. It's still my favorite. Let me talk 415 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,039 about sort of detective Yeah, detective work. I mean that's really what is 416 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:27,039 So as we're talking, more and more questions are coming up in my mind. 417 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:33,599 But when you cover a story like that and you've got whistle blowers coming 418 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,640 to you, do you ever have somebody go come to you and say, 419 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:41,519 hey, cut it out, we need to or or stop or any kind 420 00:28:41,519 --> 00:28:44,079 of threat in any way. I know, you know, it's funny because 421 00:28:44,079 --> 00:28:47,839 I've dealt with a lot of you know, quote bad people in my life, 422 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,319 and you know, people who committed crimes, yeah, serial killers, 423 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:56,119 h you know, former mobsters, et cetera. And I've never in people. 424 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:57,960 I whenever I do a talk at places, one of the questions afterly 425 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:03,039 comes up, if you've ever been afraid? And I've actually had, And 426 00:29:03,079 --> 00:29:04,640 I think because I try to be fair with them, and you know, 427 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,480 but I'm still going to call them out for what they did or may have 428 00:29:07,519 --> 00:29:12,279 done. And but no, I really have never. I think. I 429 00:29:12,319 --> 00:29:18,640 think there's only one time in my career where I walked into a situation and 430 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,920 I felt I didn't really think this out, which was was I was going 431 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:26,200 into the house of a guy who had come out of prison for a I 432 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:30,119 don't think he got the murder charge. I forgot he got out earlier and 433 00:29:30,119 --> 00:29:33,519 had incriminated somebody else who had done twenty five years that might not have done 434 00:29:33,519 --> 00:29:37,640 it. And this is pre cell phone and everything. I found the guy. 435 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,400 I was going into his house and knocking those doors coming in. You 436 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,920 know, this guy may not want to really tell me the story. And 437 00:29:44,279 --> 00:29:45,519 I've told nobody where I'm going. You know, I told my wife, 438 00:29:45,519 --> 00:29:48,319 I'm going to do an interview as a nighttime interview, And so I walked 439 00:29:48,319 --> 00:29:52,079 into the door as pre cell phone, and I remember just as I walked 440 00:29:52,119 --> 00:29:53,920 in, said yeah, just let's be safer. So I asked a guy, 441 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,599 can I use your phone? Says yeah. I called the office the 442 00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:00,440 desk and said, hey, I know you guys might be look in form 443 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:02,519 me for something later. So if you need me, you know, here's 444 00:30:02,519 --> 00:30:06,160 the phone number to call me. Okay. And that's the only time I 445 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,440 think I've ever really sort of walked into a situation and said, this is 446 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:12,519 a little unnerving. Did you get the information we're looking for from the now? 447 00:30:12,559 --> 00:30:15,640 He? I mean, and it may I don't know what the truth 448 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,559 is. I know the guy, the guy came out of prison that I'm 449 00:30:18,599 --> 00:30:21,279 actually still in touch with him and his wife. This fellow who came out 450 00:30:21,319 --> 00:30:25,480 of prison after twenty five years, Uh, we still keep in touch for 451 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,079 you know, he made he was parole and he maintains his innocence in this 452 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:30,240 murder. And there was a lot of evidence that he didn't do it. 453 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:36,559 Uh, but he I mean, actually, I mean our stories. He 454 00:30:36,599 --> 00:30:38,200 went to his first parole bid and this was back but you know, when 455 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,880 you really didn't get parole on your first bid on a murder and he used 456 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,880 stories that we'd done, which raiders real questions about the cops from that era 457 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:51,359 and other convictions they've been involved with were bad convictions, and they released him 458 00:30:51,359 --> 00:30:56,240 on his first parole bid. Do you ever see the uh, the justice 459 00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:00,240 system get it wrong? Oh? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean 460 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,119 I think and I I am a huge support of our justice system. Yeah, 461 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:07,119 I think it's more often than not gets it right. I agree with 462 00:31:07,319 --> 00:31:10,000 more often than not, I would agree with that, but but there are 463 00:31:10,119 --> 00:31:14,400 times when it gets it wrong, and and more often than not, it's 464 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,799 just it's it's it's not so much that the system goes awry, whether the 465 00:31:17,799 --> 00:31:21,039 statutes or whatever. That can happen too, it's more it's human error. 466 00:31:21,119 --> 00:31:23,480 You get people that get myopic and they just get you know, they get 467 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:26,759 centered on them. They they're sure they know what happened right, and then 468 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:32,319 sometimes to reverse that, it's it's almost trying to move egos. I would 469 00:31:32,319 --> 00:31:33,839 assume, Oh, yes, yeah, I think very much. Yeah, 470 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,559 which is who nobody wants to admit being wrong. No, exactly. I 471 00:31:37,559 --> 00:31:40,720 mean that's the thing. I mean, I've done a number of I mean 472 00:31:40,759 --> 00:31:44,799 not done dozens, but you know, a number of wrongful conviction stories through 473 00:31:44,799 --> 00:31:52,720 the years, and and it's it's tough too, because the families of those 474 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,720 who've been convinced that they knew who killed their loved one, yes, and 475 00:31:55,759 --> 00:31:59,279 they find out five, ten, some cases twenty years later they were wrong. 476 00:32:00,759 --> 00:32:06,640 Those same egos that have the investment in the wrongful conviction, it typically 477 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:08,559 convince those people, you know that they got it right too. Yeah, 478 00:32:08,559 --> 00:32:12,480 And it's really that's tough when you see them sort of battling that, Oh 479 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:14,920 my gosh, you know, yes, you're wrong all these years, yes, 480 00:32:15,039 --> 00:32:19,920 right, that is I mean, it's funny. Has anything changed your 481 00:32:20,079 --> 00:32:23,640 belief? Did you ever do anything differently after a story that you did? 482 00:32:23,759 --> 00:32:27,240 You know? I mean I always think a belief is just a thought we 483 00:32:27,279 --> 00:32:30,680 think over and over and over again. Right, So along the lines of 484 00:32:30,799 --> 00:32:35,279 what you just said, I've thought for years, over and over and over 485 00:32:35,359 --> 00:32:38,720 again, this person was the person that can committed the murder or the crime. 486 00:32:39,079 --> 00:32:42,559 And then I find out that it's this And it's hard to change that 487 00:32:42,599 --> 00:32:45,240 sometimes. But I mean, I think through the years, it's probably not 488 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:51,240 one instance. Through the years, you know, Yeah, you learn more 489 00:32:51,279 --> 00:32:52,680 and more as you're doing it. To be skeptical, not cynical, but 490 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:57,759 skeptical. I think there's a real difference there. And so and I go, 491 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:01,640 I mean there's some in the profession who will I think they know the 492 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:05,759 answers right away. They'll see something and whether it's the conspiracy theory or whether 493 00:33:05,799 --> 00:33:07,880 it's this or that, and they'll jump to the conclusion and hope they get 494 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,519 the facts that lead them there. They may or they may not. I 495 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:16,319 I completely go backwards from that. I don't make any decisions right earlier, 496 00:33:16,759 --> 00:33:22,480 often even until near the end reporting. So talk to me then about your 497 00:33:22,599 --> 00:33:29,240 thoughts on I would I guess the state of journalism today, and well, 498 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,759 you know, we've got social media. I would think that x or Twitter 499 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:37,200 to me is more where I would find news, where the other stuff is 500 00:33:37,759 --> 00:33:40,839 more. I guess we could call it a news feed on Facebook, but 501 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:46,359 it's filled with you know, more opinion right right and Twitter X Twitter, 502 00:33:46,519 --> 00:33:53,319 I mean ex Twitter or whatever. The You still have to sort you know, 503 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:57,680 and know what's reliable and what's not when you're thinking to something. And 504 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:04,000 it has I think admittedly gotten worse under Musk but uh okay, but it 505 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:07,359 But you know, I think with all of them, you have to weather 506 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,159 and it's even its your daily media, you know. And that's the problem 507 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:15,639 now, I think is it's a weird dichotomy where we have far more choices 508 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:21,280 than we ever have, but people find their silos, their ideological silos or 509 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:22,960 whatever, and they just and all it does is just solidify their beliefs and 510 00:34:23,199 --> 00:34:27,280 they don't look outside of it. Right, right, I'm looking from like 511 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,039 minded people to support my point of view and exactly and tell me I'm right, 512 00:34:30,199 --> 00:34:34,119 yes, exactly that. And I always think that the world has gone 513 00:34:34,159 --> 00:34:39,840 from uh, conversation, open mind in his dialogue to uh, you're dead 514 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,920 fucking wrong. Yeah, And I think that's the trouble. Oh it is, 515 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:45,480 I mean, you know, it's it's it's a weird look back. 516 00:34:45,599 --> 00:34:49,400 You know. Greg Popovia is the great coach of the San Antonio Spurs. 517 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,920 You recently stopped the game when they were booing Kawhi Leonard, who plays for 518 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:54,920 the Clippers and used to play for the Spurs and won them one of their 519 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,840 championship banners. And later he pointed out, you know, he said, 520 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,639 you know, five years ago Kawhi Leonard came of this building and the fans 521 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:07,599 cheered him because they knew what he'd done for this franchise. And now there 522 00:35:07,599 --> 00:35:10,920 has been this kind of this shift toward meanness at all. That's just really 523 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:17,280 bothersome. Yeah it is. But I also I'll ask you this because it's 524 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:22,800 something that gets tossed around a lot, and I don't know if it's a 525 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:29,119 fully understood concept or not. Freedom of speech, yes, you know, 526 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:32,519 when you see things and it became a very popular term. It seems to 527 00:35:32,519 --> 00:35:37,800 be the pendulum maybe swinging slightly back, but the cancel culture that we had, 528 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:39,920 and people say, well, freedom of speech, Well, you know, 529 00:35:40,039 --> 00:35:46,840 private organizations do not have to support because they get advertising dollars that what 530 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:52,679 you say or what you do. Now we're starting to see things and I 531 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:58,559 think freedom of speech, in my opinion, is ugly. It can be 532 00:35:58,639 --> 00:36:02,239 ugly because it can be along the lines of what you said. People find 533 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:07,199 their silos, yes, and they want their beliefs. Now someone speaking out 534 00:36:07,599 --> 00:36:09,679 something I don't like, well I don't like that, yes, but that's 535 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:15,280 what freedom of speech is. And I'm watching the stuff that's happening on college 536 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:21,719 campuses with the Palestinian thing, and I think we just had one pro Palestinian 537 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:25,199 rally on the U of R campus that led to some violence. Yes, 538 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:29,679 I mean, I'm just seeing the story too. I am as well. 539 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:35,719 But my only concern when I see now presidents and a lot of influences at 540 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,400 Ivy League schools. Look, I don't like some of the Hummas things. 541 00:36:39,559 --> 00:36:44,320 It was awful, some of the most horrible, inhumane things I've ever seen. 542 00:36:45,039 --> 00:36:46,400 And yet at the same time, I go, but that's what freedom 543 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:52,360 of speech is, if we're going to speak and assemble peacefully and make our 544 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:59,960 points. And sometimes I feel like on college campus is that's where ideas should 545 00:37:00,119 --> 00:37:04,840 be exchanged and opened up and dialogue discussion. But we don't do that. 546 00:37:05,119 --> 00:37:09,039 And I think that the dialogue part is I mean, it's it's bothersome to 547 00:37:09,079 --> 00:37:12,800 me on all sides of the spectrum where I mean, are there some people 548 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,000 college campuses probably shouldn't have come speaking if you have like a Holocaust buyer, 549 00:37:17,199 --> 00:37:21,639 you know, but there are some who aren't that far that they're going to 550 00:37:21,639 --> 00:37:22,800 be. But then again, a lot of times some of these we could 551 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:27,679 go back to the private institution. We have guidelines and standards by which we 552 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:32,119 cannot you know, we don't support ideologically, but we will allow you to 553 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:36,679 whatever I don't. I mean, you know you of ours a private college 554 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,760 exactly, so you know, I always think I've always said to people, 555 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:45,320 look if you if you agree to walk in the door, let's say, 556 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,480 of a church, and this is what they believe, well, then you're 557 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:51,400 playing by the rules. If you don't want to, don't be part of 558 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,239 that. And that's I get annoyed, I admit with and some of my 559 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:59,239 friends on both sides of the would probably disagree with me here, but we're 560 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,239 where and it's happened on college campuses where a speaker will come, a speaker 561 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:06,719 will be controversial, and people just shout him or her down. It's like 562 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:09,280 if there's a Q and a question, ask pointed questions, right, you 563 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,079 listen. You don't have to agree with it. I mean, as you 564 00:38:12,079 --> 00:38:15,079 said, you know you're walking to the church or you know, probably going 565 00:38:15,119 --> 00:38:17,519 in what you're going to disagree with about this person. This idea of just 566 00:38:17,599 --> 00:38:27,199 like shouting people down is just well, I that's a very good point. 567 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:32,039 I think that we don't have discussions, and I often think around race, 568 00:38:32,119 --> 00:38:37,679 for example, the idea is always we need to have a discussion. Okay, 569 00:38:38,119 --> 00:38:43,599 Well then let's have the discussion, but we don't because it's either too 570 00:38:43,639 --> 00:38:47,960 hard, too ugly. But but that it seems like the world has moved 571 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:53,760 away. And I don't know if that's a social media in terms of calm 572 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:59,239 exchange of ideas. You know, it's really interesting to talk race because I 573 00:38:59,559 --> 00:39:04,360 am from the South, and I went to bust integrated schools and and then 574 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:07,880 I'm not saying there was there was abundant racism in the South and that sadly 575 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:15,000 hasn't changed in some quarters. But what's what's interesting is I found more of 576 00:39:15,039 --> 00:39:19,320 a willingness. And actually I mean and this has happened with me moving north 577 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,440 because a lot of like through families and friends, they were at the beginners, 578 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:27,800 typically all black women who lost their children and and a lot of them 579 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:30,639 had come up from the Great Migration. They were older than I maybe by 580 00:39:30,679 --> 00:39:34,760 twenty years, and had moved from the South. And I don't know, 581 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:37,400 I don't know what. I don't know if it's the Southern thing or what. 582 00:39:37,519 --> 00:39:43,719 But I always found it much easier to discuss race. Then it seems 583 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:45,320 to be having moved to the northeast. If that makes sense, right, 584 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:50,519 Yeah, no, it does. It makes perfect sense because yeah, well 585 00:39:51,519 --> 00:39:53,800 I think a lot of the times the North was always like, wasn't us 586 00:39:54,039 --> 00:39:57,599 Well, no, I think that's it. Yeah, really too. I 587 00:39:57,679 --> 00:40:00,880 know that sounds maybe simplistic and dumb, but I always think that wasn't our 588 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:07,360 fault. And yet at the same time, well, it's a great trauma 589 00:40:07,519 --> 00:40:10,880 on a race of people that I think will take five hundred years to figure 590 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:15,760 out. Oh if that, if we know, if we can stop from 591 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:19,840 finding new ways, do you continue to continue that? But I was only 592 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,800 using racist terms of the idea of having the discussion, whether it be politics 593 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:28,119 or anything. We don't know, we really we really don't. I mean, 594 00:40:28,199 --> 00:40:31,880 and it's wasn't it was it? Uh? Who was the Speaker of 595 00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:37,960 the House under Reagan? Yeah, it's a big Irish but you know, 596 00:40:37,079 --> 00:40:40,800 you had two people on the other sides that seemed to have some kind of 597 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:46,920 discourse that has has left. And I would think also, terms like fake 598 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:52,519 journalism, fake news have got to hurt Oh the very thing you do. 599 00:40:52,639 --> 00:40:54,000 Yeah, no, it does. And it's just you know, it's such 600 00:40:54,199 --> 00:40:59,320 nonsense. Most of the time. I mean, there is truly bad news 601 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:01,440 and fake news and tilted news, but most of the people I know in 602 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:05,960 the profession work really hard to get it right, you know. I mean 603 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,639 we come in with our biases and all, and and for me that probably 604 00:41:08,679 --> 00:41:13,039 dictates more of what I opt to cover than actually what the story is when 605 00:41:13,039 --> 00:41:16,599 I've completed it or as I'm reporting it. But most people I know really 606 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:21,599 really try hard to get it right. Yeah, I believe that. I 607 00:41:21,599 --> 00:41:25,559 mean having spent some time at a news station. You know, I did 608 00:41:25,599 --> 00:41:29,920 the news in the morning on an AM station. I didn't I didn't write 609 00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:32,320 it. I just read it, but I watched the guy who put it 610 00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:38,000 together really try very hard to make sure it was correct exactly and not rush 611 00:41:38,079 --> 00:41:42,920 to judgment. Not that. And I think sometimes now it's it's a foot 612 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:45,039 race, right, I think who's going to get it first? But just 613 00:41:45,119 --> 00:41:47,559 because you had it first, Like I always think that that it was a 614 00:41:47,679 --> 00:41:53,960 ridiculous idea of for example, in radio and some big artists was coming to 615 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:57,760 town. Oh we got to get the exclusive, we got to get the 616 00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,760 exclusive. Well, nobody gives you shit if you had the exclusive. Just 617 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:04,880 do the better interview, do the better conversation. So true, to stop 618 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,840 this idea just because that person has them, doesn't. Yes, people may 619 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:12,440 go, Yeah, they're gonna go listen. When they come to yours, 620 00:42:12,519 --> 00:42:15,559 they're gonna come listen exactly if they're fans of the person, that's why you're 621 00:42:15,559 --> 00:42:20,599 having them in do the Better interview. Stop with this, you know it's 622 00:42:20,639 --> 00:42:24,519 so it's and after man. I I'm because it is part of the profession 623 00:42:24,519 --> 00:42:27,760 where it's like, oh I got the school, yeah I got it first 624 00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:30,559 and yes, but but you're right at the end of the day, especially 625 00:42:30,559 --> 00:42:34,280 with social media, where you know you put it online as somebody else is 626 00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:36,960 going to repeat it twenty seconds later, so who's going to know. But 627 00:42:37,079 --> 00:42:39,400 it is one of the things I learned through the years. If I if 628 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:43,440 I get beaten on a story that's in my Bailey Wick and I feel, 629 00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:45,719 oh, man, I'm I'm gonna go out and beat the heck out of 630 00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:47,840 it the second day and do it far. But it's my goal. Whether 631 00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:51,519 it's acceedar's not another story. But I'm gonna try to make sure that if 632 00:42:51,519 --> 00:42:54,199 it's a story, I think the only person you're competing with is you. 633 00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:58,760 It is true, I mean, and I know that it's it's hard not 634 00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:02,760 to write. I mean, you watch I love documentaries and things I was 635 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:07,679 a big fan of the Last Dance with about the Chicago Bulls. I think 636 00:43:07,679 --> 00:43:10,800 I've watched that gary maybe three or four times. My youngest daughter and I 637 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:15,119 and she that was they She came home during Both daughters came home during COVID 638 00:43:15,159 --> 00:43:19,679 actual because they can work remote, and that was our Sunday night view, 639 00:43:19,679 --> 00:43:22,440 and she and I would watch the Last Dance, Yes so, and in 640 00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:28,679 that Jordan would make things up in his head about people who did him wrong. 641 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:31,239 Exactly. It's a very human thing, but the only person he's really 642 00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:36,719 competing against is himself. Nobody can really do anything to you. And the 643 00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:39,400 crazy thing with Jordan and I'm from North Carolina. I'm a huge Carolina basketball 644 00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:44,559 fan, have been since I was eight. He gives his Hall of Fame 645 00:43:44,599 --> 00:43:47,079 speech and it's still like that. He's still beating people up in his Hall 646 00:43:47,079 --> 00:43:52,039 of Fame speech, which in a way I went, Okay, at least 647 00:43:52,079 --> 00:43:55,639 you're tried and true right through. Exactly, this is the character. There 648 00:43:55,719 --> 00:44:00,880 is no there's no soft soaping, there's no faith, there's no fake that 649 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:04,239 how fake? The high school coach that decided I wasn't ready for the varsity, 650 00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:07,159 Yeah yeah, come on, how concerned, are you when when we 651 00:44:07,199 --> 00:44:13,559 talk about things with AI and deep fakes in terms of news, very concerned. 652 00:44:13,559 --> 00:44:15,960 I'm very concerned. I mean, I'm concerned about our company using it, 653 00:44:15,039 --> 00:44:17,239 you know AI. I mean, I think we've seen their their denying. 654 00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:21,480 I think we've seen instances with Connette falling back on just some you know, 655 00:44:21,559 --> 00:44:24,599 some AI scripted you know, sports stuff or something. OK, it's 656 00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:29,639 just I mean, and it's all well, I guess there's different ways. 657 00:44:29,639 --> 00:44:32,239 There's the deep fake stuff with political ads and things like that, which really 658 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,360 yeah, anything I see on Twitter now, even if something like oh I 659 00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:38,920 agree with that one hundred percent, I check it twenty times down before I 660 00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:45,800 would ever put it back out again. And the AI sort of constructed journalism. 661 00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:47,559 What bothers me is I think, you know it's going to be something 662 00:44:47,559 --> 00:44:51,559 and maybe you know, this team played that team. It's going to get 663 00:44:51,599 --> 00:44:54,199 the fact straight, et cetera, et cetera. But you're you're losing. 664 00:44:54,519 --> 00:45:00,760 You know, we're our great styal, we got great Bills reporters st before, 665 00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:04,679 I'm our high school reporters. They bring something different to their writing. 666 00:45:04,679 --> 00:45:07,360 It's not going to show up in that. I agree with you now I 667 00:45:07,519 --> 00:45:13,000 have used chat GPT, I haven't how I'm curious yet, flowery, I 668 00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:16,039 would say in terms of writing some things now, I would do it for 669 00:45:16,159 --> 00:45:22,119 more ideas, starters and things. I talked to a New York Times reporter 670 00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:28,159 who said that they used it, but used it maybe for a better way 671 00:45:28,199 --> 00:45:31,400 to turn a phrase or an idea starter, which I thought, Yeah, 672 00:45:31,559 --> 00:45:36,159 I kind of like it for that, but anything beyond that. I agree 673 00:45:36,159 --> 00:45:40,519 with you. There's something about there's something about you that you bring to your 674 00:45:40,519 --> 00:45:45,360 writing that people enjoy. Yes, I mean this doesn't happen phrase, it's 675 00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:46,719 really I mean, if you're talking about using it for uses like that, 676 00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:51,360 it's really nothing different than using nothing stars exactly. I should have used that 677 00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:54,360 word in say yes right, yeah, I mean has your job gotten easier 678 00:45:54,440 --> 00:46:00,840 or harder with technology? Both? By mean you know, the ability to 679 00:46:01,119 --> 00:46:05,719 look up court documents and documents without having to constantly, though I'd still like 680 00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:09,480 going to the court just because it's more fun. The problem is that the 681 00:46:09,519 --> 00:46:14,840 workplace, the demands that are on you because you know, they want your 682 00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:16,239 social media output. You know, yes, some people want me to do 683 00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:20,800 Instagram. I don't do Instagram personally. I mean I should I probably should. 684 00:46:21,079 --> 00:46:22,840 I, well, I do it because my Facebook goes to Instagram automatically. 685 00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:27,199 OK. But you know, and it's this constant sort of we should 686 00:46:27,199 --> 00:46:30,440 be doing this, we should be doing that. And we have a significantly 687 00:46:30,519 --> 00:46:32,920 smaller staff than when I started. And you know, so now you're writing 688 00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:36,960 your headlines. You're worried about making your headline something that will be attractive to 689 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:39,119 Google, so you'll get the better algorithms and you'll move up. And it's 690 00:46:39,199 --> 00:46:43,880 just the you know, the ability to sit down and like, I'm just 691 00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:46,800 going to spend the next three hours just writing a damn story. It seems 692 00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:52,519 like there's constantly because the technology something pully to me, Yeah, some other 693 00:46:52,559 --> 00:46:54,480 little thing right now? You know now because like you know, now, 694 00:46:54,519 --> 00:46:58,559 can you can you write your your headline for your story? We're not going 695 00:46:58,599 --> 00:47:00,920 to use it, but can you write your headline for your story before you 696 00:47:00,039 --> 00:47:04,079 started the story, because you know, we have an editor so and so 697 00:47:04,159 --> 00:47:06,280 and other places in the country that might want to use it so they can 698 00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:10,679 see it. It's just this constant sort of swirl of technology just you know, 699 00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:14,800 and we're always changing how we're using it seems like every week, and 700 00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:16,719 it's just this constant just leave me alone and let me write my story. 701 00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:24,239 Yeah, really happens. It's funny because you know, spending thirty years in 702 00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:30,199 or plus in radio, and you saw technological changes. And when I was 703 00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:36,519 last on radio, I was doing eighty stations around the country. I was 704 00:47:36,559 --> 00:47:40,639 doing the morning stuff, midday stuff, afternoon and then you know your day. 705 00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:44,559 Just you're right, it was more and more and more because there's less 706 00:47:44,559 --> 00:47:47,760 and less and less. So they put you up. But I always thought, 707 00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:52,679 and I would curious if you were like this as well, that I 708 00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:55,840 rented space for them and hung out my shingle. It was my shop. 709 00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:02,719 I'd much did the chagrin of some of my Yeah. Yeah, And I 710 00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:07,840 feel like that's the only way I'll use the term win. Is the only 711 00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:13,039 way you win, because you know, all this idea of hey, Gary, 712 00:48:13,079 --> 00:48:15,000 we need some social media posts over here, and how about the headline 713 00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:19,719 because they needed in Wichita, and you know all this other stuff becomes like, 714 00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:23,679 well, you've got to be your own independent person more or less. 715 00:48:23,679 --> 00:48:27,320 And I would even think for you, Gary, I think it would be 716 00:48:27,559 --> 00:48:31,119 fascinating if you could get someone to just like if you could almost hire a 717 00:48:31,159 --> 00:48:36,840 young kid to just follow you and just document your day. That's a social 718 00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:40,840 media dream. You know. It's funny you say that I tell young reporters 719 00:48:42,599 --> 00:48:45,920 to do something that I really wish I had done, because I admittedly, 720 00:48:45,159 --> 00:48:47,280 I mean, I was looking at stories today. I remember and do you 721 00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:50,760 remember Long Island Alita Amy Fishery? Oh? Yeah, so I have a 722 00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:53,239 crazy story with her, you do, which I completely forgot until I was 723 00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:57,280 going through old news. Wait, I gotta hear this. So I mean 724 00:48:57,440 --> 00:49:00,000 a lot of but the thing is, I've forgotten so damn any of them. 725 00:49:00,159 --> 00:49:01,719 Yeah, And I tell young reporters started journal, it's you know, 726 00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:07,360 there's you're going to have your articles. But the articles are one fifth of 727 00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:09,800 what I has time for the journal. Now that's the problem. That's the 728 00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:14,440 problem. It is, it really is. It's unfortunate that sometimes I wish 729 00:49:14,519 --> 00:49:17,880 we could take a step back and not be trying to rush so much because 730 00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:22,079 there is so much rich to death. That's a great idea, and I 731 00:49:22,119 --> 00:49:24,360 wish I had because I mean, I you know the great you know, 732 00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:30,199 late comedian Dick Gregory of the African American comedian. I was I was going 733 00:49:30,199 --> 00:49:32,000 through there's newspapers, dot com and online where you can go back through old 734 00:49:32,079 --> 00:49:37,400 DNC and hundreds of other papers. I interviewed Dick Gregory. I had no 735 00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:38,679 recollection of that. I know it was by phone, but I just came 736 00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:44,320 across the story where I interviewed Dick Gregory was to speak. I have no 737 00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:49,599 recollection of that whatsoever. Okay, So Dick Gregory is somebody. Let's say, 738 00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:53,199 I'm fifty two. I don't know that I ever really saw it sixty 739 00:49:53,199 --> 00:49:57,679 four and so I never saw him, but I i he was you know, 740 00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:00,920 I'm a huge comedy fan. Yeah, so he was a legend, 741 00:50:01,039 --> 00:50:08,920 and he was more political. And I would say I often think today that 742 00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:15,360 the philosophers of the world are the comedians. I think there's something some not 743 00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:21,480 everybody, but I believe you become a comedian in my mind because you want 744 00:50:21,519 --> 00:50:23,239 to say whatever you want to say whatever you want, and you don't want 745 00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:25,280 anybody to tell you you can't, right. I mean, you know, 746 00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:30,519 whether it's the politics of Dick Gregory or I mean, I don't know. 747 00:50:30,519 --> 00:50:32,880 If you listen to Nate BARGATSI, yes, I mean it's just slice of 748 00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:37,280 life. Yes, it is Slice Life. He's great and he's a Southern 749 00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:39,000 guy. I just love the guy. I stumbled on him like a year 750 00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:44,800 ago. He's hilarious, hilarious, But I was thinking of like Chappelle to 751 00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:49,400 me, to me, you know, Chappelle isn't here if we don't have 752 00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:52,960 a Dick Gregory. Oh yes it is. It's the natural lineans. And 753 00:50:53,039 --> 00:50:59,239 I always feel like Dick Gregory was brilliant, like in an overused term, 754 00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:01,159 I think brilliant, and we say that too often about people, but he 755 00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:07,639 really is or was. And I think that there are guys like Lenny Bruce 756 00:51:07,679 --> 00:51:10,840 who get more attention than that Dick Gregory. And I don't know if that's 757 00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:15,400 because somebody's got more melawtnin than the other person. I don't know. It 758 00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:20,559 could it could be because we don't want to hear the uppity black guy telling 759 00:51:20,639 --> 00:51:24,000 us all the things that are wrong. In sort of the connective tissue between 760 00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:29,440 Gregory and Chappelle is how amazing Prior was. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 761 00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:32,679 Prior was as well. And I always loved the Eddie Murphy story where Cosby 762 00:51:32,679 --> 00:51:37,079 had called him up and said, you never heard of this, all right, 763 00:51:37,159 --> 00:51:40,159 so Eddie Murphy, you know, Edie, Eddie explodes on the scene 764 00:51:40,159 --> 00:51:45,719 and when I look back at Eddie Murphy's career and he's on Saturday Night Live 765 00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:51,880 at nineteen years old. I guess it is because I sit here at my 766 00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:57,039 age now and I go, do you realize how poised you have to be? 767 00:51:57,400 --> 00:51:59,519 I was. I could never have pulled that off. I would have 768 00:51:59,559 --> 00:52:01,719 been two weeks I had over animated. No one would want to watch that. 769 00:52:02,039 --> 00:52:07,400 He was fantastic, I mean just in himself. But when he did 770 00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:12,639 his stand up and I loved Delirious as a child because it was so dirty 771 00:52:12,679 --> 00:52:15,760 but so funny. And I think Bill took his kids to see it, 772 00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:21,920 and he said he gets a call from Cosby and he does the Cosby impression, 773 00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:23,599 saying basically, you know, why do he got to use those words 774 00:52:23,599 --> 00:52:28,800 and things and and and Bill prior to everything we knew. I always think 775 00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:32,760 I have a big theory of over compensation, you know, like if I 776 00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:36,679 see Ellen dancing a lot on her show, I go, bet she doesn't 777 00:52:36,679 --> 00:52:39,320 do that in real life exactly, you know. But Bill Cosby was America's 778 00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:44,440 dad. He was telling people, who's telling African Americans pull up your pants? 779 00:52:44,559 --> 00:52:47,440 Speak of right? All this stuff and really rubbed some people the wrong 780 00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:51,159 way. But he had called Eddie Murphy and said, you know, you 781 00:52:51,199 --> 00:52:53,400 need to clean it up. And then he said, Richard Pryor, and 782 00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:57,079 again I'm paraphrasing, you could find it. He goes, Richard Prior calls 783 00:52:57,119 --> 00:53:00,559 and goes, damn fuck Bill Cosby Man, you do it, Yeah, 784 00:53:00,599 --> 00:53:04,719 something to that effect. And it was. It was funny. And you 785 00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:07,599 know, I'm big Richard Pryor fan as well. You know, I always 786 00:53:07,639 --> 00:53:14,880 think that Live on the Sunset Strip may be the best live comedy that you 787 00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:17,000 could watch. If you go back and watch it, it's just it's good. 788 00:53:17,159 --> 00:53:22,000 It's so good, and it's so so much of him at that point. 789 00:53:22,159 --> 00:53:25,960 You know, you could see a man at at a stage in life 790 00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:30,000 who had lived a life that was pretty interesting, growing up in a brothel 791 00:53:30,079 --> 00:53:32,400 and you know all this stuff. Can you talk about sort of your Murphy 792 00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:37,119 And you know this he was doing it in the comedy clubs Chappelle. But 793 00:53:37,119 --> 00:53:38,679 if you because I remember John Stewart, I think when Chappelle was getting the 794 00:53:38,679 --> 00:53:43,320 Mark Twain price saying, you know he saw him at like age seventeen in 795 00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:45,159 a New York City comedy club and he was already like fully formed. Yeah, 796 00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:51,320 hilarious. Yeah, it's interesting how some people can just just intuitively have 797 00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:52,960 it. It's it's a wonderful gift. I mean to me, humor is 798 00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:58,679 a wonderful gift. Yes, I mean I even laughed Rex Ryan, who 799 00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:00,199 used to be the head coach of the Buffalo Bills for years and there was 800 00:54:00,199 --> 00:54:05,000 that whole foot fetish thing. He's now on ESPN, and we had a 801 00:54:05,079 --> 00:54:10,119 controversy in the Kansas City game with the Kadarius Tony being on the line and 802 00:54:10,159 --> 00:54:15,239 he says that's a toe too far and somebody else goes man when you turn 803 00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:19,119 Rex Ryan off to feet and Rex embraced all of it, and I go, 804 00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:22,239 that's I love that. When you haven't sense of humor, I love 805 00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:25,960 that. Well. You talk about being in touch with people, Oftentimes I'm 806 00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:30,960 in too. I come across a lot of out there people at my job, 807 00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:32,199 and it used to be I mean, it's funny you talk about being 808 00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:37,719 afraid and when we're at the old building, people seem if they got released 809 00:54:37,719 --> 00:54:39,320 from the psych center and they had some story they want to tell, they 810 00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:44,199 would come to our office. Security called me because I was the one that 811 00:54:44,239 --> 00:54:46,039 would just talk to everybody and I was never afraid. I would go down 812 00:54:46,079 --> 00:54:49,159 I talk to him and give me some crean occasion would be a seat. 813 00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:53,519 Well that's interesting. So you mentioned foot fetish. Do you remember the guy 814 00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:59,320 who got arrested for tickling feet in the libraries? I, yes, I 815 00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:04,000 do. This wasn't that long ago. It's probably twelve Yeah, okay, 816 00:55:04,039 --> 00:55:07,400 ten to prison for a while. Yeah, he got out. He ended 817 00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:10,400 up homeless in DC. I know this, and he actually he just called 818 00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:15,360 me this past weekend. Uh, and he has lots of you know, 819 00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:17,920 sort of theories about what's happening in the world which are out there. But 820 00:55:19,039 --> 00:55:22,440 uh, you know, I think I did a story. I didn't cover 821 00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:24,719 his case. I think I did a story with an appeal of his and 822 00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:29,199 he found my number and started calling me. And occasionally he had just called 823 00:55:29,199 --> 00:55:30,920 me from anywhere in the country and I had not heard from him in like, 824 00:55:31,079 --> 00:55:35,280 oh my goodness, several years, and this weekend or two weekends ago, 825 00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:37,239 I got a call from him in DC. Let me know what's not 826 00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:43,599 really Yes, that's that's really interesting. Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure you've 827 00:55:43,639 --> 00:55:47,880 covered. Did you do the Shawcross stuff? I did not. I I 828 00:55:49,119 --> 00:55:52,159 was that's right, serial kill When I caught you here. Yeah, when 829 00:55:52,159 --> 00:55:55,679 I came here, first five years were crazy with criminal news. I mean 830 00:55:55,800 --> 00:56:00,360 Shawcross had been arrested. I actually did a story for I was living in 831 00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:04,000 northern Virginia. Did you work in the paper there? And I covered the 832 00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:07,199 Marine Corps base and the FBI academy was there, so the profiler for the 833 00:56:07,199 --> 00:56:10,519 Shawcross case was actually there and I got them, so I actually interviewed him 834 00:56:12,119 --> 00:56:15,039 to have this story when I came up here, because Shawcross had been arrested. 835 00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:20,360 The Shawcross story I did. I shouldn't laugh because it is when he 836 00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:22,480 died. I did a number of Shawcross stories. But when he died, 837 00:56:22,559 --> 00:56:29,679 he had taken very ill and it seemed as if the folks transporting him from 838 00:56:29,719 --> 00:56:32,480 the prison to the medical facility took the probably the most circuitous long route you 839 00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:36,920 could possibly take, which did not have to help his health, and he 840 00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:42,920 died I think in the hospital later. And oddly I got tipped about that 841 00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:45,480 from somebody in the system, in the correction system who was so offended. 842 00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:50,800 And with prison deaths and inmate desks or something called the Commission of Correction in 843 00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:52,800 New York which studies them or look said them and decides if anything went awry, 844 00:56:53,559 --> 00:56:58,480 and that report sure came out and sort of blistered the corrections folks for 845 00:56:59,119 --> 00:57:04,000 basically led me exacerbating his health issues to the point where it could have been 846 00:57:04,039 --> 00:57:07,280 what caused his death. Really, that was an odd show because like I 847 00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:10,280 was a fan of Arthur Shawcross, but uh no, but I think that 848 00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:15,920 there's a humanity element to it, right, there's a humanity element to it, 849 00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:17,880 even if we don't like it, you know, in the end, 850 00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:22,360 it's it's a human being. Late the late judge to Lescom, I got 851 00:57:22,360 --> 00:57:24,639 to know what the coverage of the Attica aftermath and him handling the Attica settlement. 852 00:57:25,159 --> 00:57:28,280 Yeah, he used to, you know, and he's a Reagan appointee, 853 00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:30,880 and he said, people always like, why are you treating these former 854 00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:34,039 inmates? Like I said, yeah, the the constitution doesn't stop at the 855 00:57:34,039 --> 00:57:37,599 prison door, No, it still applies. Yeah, I mean that's always 856 00:57:37,639 --> 00:57:42,159 where when I've talked to people who were defense attorneys, there there are things, 857 00:57:42,440 --> 00:57:46,480 Look, you have you want somebody who's going to defend your rights and 858 00:57:46,559 --> 00:57:52,000 freedoms, because that's how our justice system is set up exactly. And we 859 00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:57,280 you know, oftentimes we always say, well it isn't proven guilty anymore. 860 00:57:58,079 --> 00:58:00,280 Right, it's the court of public opinion. At least, it doesn't mean 861 00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:07,119 that that's the way things go. Your book seven million, about the Brinkx 862 00:58:07,199 --> 00:58:12,079 robbery, which is a very interesting story that happened here in Rochester in ninety 863 00:58:12,079 --> 00:58:17,440 What did you say so that story that? How long did it take you 864 00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:22,000 to write the book? And is that a greater love for you than maybe 865 00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:28,840 anything else you do more? I'm my grand plan now is two years if 866 00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:31,400 I make it to retire and do more of that. I'm starting research on 867 00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:36,079 some other stuff. I just know with the time demands of working on couldn't 868 00:58:36,079 --> 00:58:39,360 really do it. It's it's like everything else that's it's not a quick easy 869 00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:45,199 answer because I covered the arrests I didn't cover down in New York City, 870 00:58:45,679 --> 00:58:47,320 and from the very first day, I like, wow, this is a 871 00:58:47,320 --> 00:58:51,079 fascinating cast of characters. You got a priest, you got the retired cop, 872 00:58:51,119 --> 00:58:55,679 you've got the Ira gorilla, and and and then they got convicted a 873 00:58:55,760 --> 00:59:00,519 trial ninety four, well two of them did. Actually the cop was acquitted 874 00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:07,239 and a person who's one of my best friends, Bill Klaus, was represented 875 00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:08,599 the priest and he and I are still really good friends. We've run a 876 00:59:08,639 --> 00:59:13,960 couple of times a week. And I then said, I was thinking, 877 00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:15,000 Man, I don't really this is a great book. It's not too much 878 00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:20,880 the robbery. The robbery was really not It's not Ocean's eleven. It was 879 00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:24,320 pretty tracing, but the cast of characters. And I interviewed Father Pat the 880 00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:29,480 priest in prison, and started working on the ninety five probably and wrote like 881 00:59:29,519 --> 00:59:31,760 two chapters and put it on a shelf and forgot about it, and then 882 00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:37,280 I got pulled into looking. And then you talk about talking to a family, 883 00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:39,440 this is actually one that probably the closest I've ever gotten with someone. 884 00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:45,719 Ronnie Gibbons, who was a guy that went missing in connection with the robbery. 885 00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:47,840 He was in the original planning, got cut out, came up here 886 00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:51,880 to collect some money, ends up in body parts in the Thousand Islands, 887 00:59:52,519 --> 00:59:58,800 and I got to start. His mom lived in Liverpool, England, even 888 00:59:58,840 --> 01:00:01,119 though when I wrote the original no story about Ronnie's disappearance, one of the 889 01:00:01,119 --> 01:00:05,000 copy editors figured it was in the US and put on a Dogga county after 890 01:00:05,239 --> 01:00:10,960 Liverpool. Sure right, thanks, and uh, and clearly I haven't forgotten 891 01:00:12,199 --> 01:00:16,440 and and his his and I, you know, I hate these TV shows, 892 01:00:16,440 --> 01:00:19,440 these cop TV shows where people say, oh, we're going to find 893 01:00:19,440 --> 01:00:21,360 the killer for you. You might, you might not, who knows. 894 01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:25,079 And and Ronnie's mom, you know, I looked for years trying to help 895 01:00:25,119 --> 01:00:30,760 her find Ronnie and they ultimately I didn't what the police did. And talked 896 01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:32,599 to her all all the time, and we and and often just not even 897 01:00:32,599 --> 01:00:37,440 about the case. We just we became dear friends telephonically for years. And 898 01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:39,760 I finally met her after Ronnie was found and he had a beautiful day. 899 01:00:39,800 --> 01:00:45,480 She since passed two. And and so when that happened, and I was 900 01:00:45,559 --> 01:00:50,960 involved in this hunt for this missing guy for really from ninety six until twenty 901 01:00:51,119 --> 01:00:53,400 eleven, I think probably if I have my dates right, and all that 902 01:00:53,559 --> 01:00:57,760 came in between, because I had this weird sort of enough I'm friends with 903 01:00:57,760 --> 01:01:00,920 all of the cops who got involved in the later part where the lines got 904 01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:04,119 a little blurred as to okay, what what is you know, because they 905 01:01:04,119 --> 01:01:06,800 would share information with me, and I would share stuff that I felt I 906 01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:09,360 could share, you know, and then some some that I couldn't I didn't 907 01:01:09,760 --> 01:01:15,639 and and and and then you know, all this happened on my shoot, 908 01:01:15,719 --> 01:01:19,800 maybe I should go back and do this try this book again. So so 909 01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:22,320 I then went back and started pulled out what I had, went back, 910 01:01:22,360 --> 01:01:24,360 got all you know have the clerk's office at Federal Court. Here was marvelous 911 01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:28,119 to me. They got all the transcripts from the tryal had them up there 912 01:01:28,119 --> 01:01:30,360 for years for me. They don't thin. They only sent him back last 913 01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:34,239 year and and worked on the book. And it was It was crazy because 914 01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:37,960 I got an agent who was the agent for a former colleague of mine, 915 01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:40,760 Sean Lehman, who's done a lot of sports books. And we thought, 916 01:01:42,199 --> 01:01:44,880 like, within a week of you put out a nonfiction proposal, I think 917 01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:47,119 within a week or two, the agent Robin I had a bite like, 918 01:01:47,159 --> 01:01:49,679 oh wow, this is easier. And I thought, yeah, I knew 919 01:01:49,679 --> 01:01:51,840 it was going to be a mid level small publisher. I knew it wasn't 920 01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:57,840 going to be Simon and Schust or something and and the and then so the 921 01:01:58,079 --> 01:02:00,199 publishing firm has some questions, we get and the answers. They're supposed to 922 01:02:00,199 --> 01:02:02,880 meet on a Wednesday to give the go ahead, and like on the day 923 01:02:02,920 --> 01:02:07,599 before, two days before they get bought out by somebody and everybody that was 924 01:02:07,639 --> 01:02:09,679 behind the book is laid off, and so that nothing happens for two more 925 01:02:09,719 --> 01:02:13,400 years, like dead silence, until we finally got a publisher. But during 926 01:02:13,440 --> 01:02:17,480 those years, I did you know, Justin Murphy likes the joke that this 927 01:02:17,239 --> 01:02:21,599 was. This was a really smart move on my part to try to help 928 01:02:21,639 --> 01:02:24,199 the company, you know, help me write the book. I did this, 929 01:02:24,239 --> 01:02:27,480 and I didn't really think of it this way, but it worked. 930 01:02:28,239 --> 01:02:31,880 I started this blog about the case of the crime, and I thought this 931 01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:36,360 would be a year long thing, maybe forty fifty installments. It went three 932 01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:39,480 years in like two hundred to three hundred installments. And because of that, 933 01:02:39,559 --> 01:02:45,159 I got so much more information that I wouldn't have had if I just started 934 01:02:45,199 --> 01:02:49,800 doing the research. And it just it gave me so much more information. 935 01:02:49,880 --> 01:02:52,239 People were giving me stuff right and left, I mean, on all sides 936 01:02:52,239 --> 01:02:54,320 of the law. It was amazing to me. And then you know, 937 01:02:54,320 --> 01:02:59,679 the book came out in twenty seventeen and there was a documentary that was loosely 938 01:02:59,679 --> 01:03:01,679 based on it last year. Yeah, and uh, in a perfect world 939 01:03:01,719 --> 01:03:05,639 will have another life. You know, it is a dramatized movie. But 940 01:03:05,719 --> 01:03:08,159 that has that hasn't happened yet that hasn't happened. Is there a talk of 941 01:03:08,199 --> 01:03:12,079 that? There has been on and off. I've been target to some people, 942 01:03:12,079 --> 01:03:15,639 but it's it's as I learned with Uh, you know, the documentary, 943 01:03:15,679 --> 01:03:19,280 you know, those things are it's I don't cash any checks until learn 944 01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:28,320 my hand. But to see your work appreciated by others in the business, 945 01:03:28,519 --> 01:03:32,400 I think is I can't think of a better endorsement. Right, No, 946 01:03:32,519 --> 01:03:36,079 you can't think of a better endorsement. It really was, and I still 947 01:03:36,119 --> 01:03:37,239 you know, and it's like all the awards and everything, but to have 948 01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:42,880 somebody say, hey, you what you wrote will make a great movie. 949 01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:45,039 Here's our exactly. No, it's it's so true. It really it does 950 01:03:45,159 --> 01:03:47,559 mean a lot. And you know in the book still you know, it's 951 01:03:47,639 --> 01:03:52,440 I mean, I've done co written one other you know with UH about Attica 952 01:03:52,480 --> 01:03:55,039 and Gwyn Miller who lost her dad at Attica. Since that, but uh 953 01:03:55,519 --> 01:03:59,199 and then both they are still out there. And but you know, the 954 01:03:59,239 --> 01:04:01,840 book came on TOOY seventeen and I still get people still talk to me about 955 01:04:01,840 --> 01:04:03,840 it all the time. Yeah, well it was one of the biggest things 956 01:04:03,880 --> 01:04:08,320 to happen. Well, that's true here, you know, it's seven million 957 01:04:08,360 --> 01:04:10,880 dollars. It's pretty uh well, the crazy thing is, I mean, 958 01:04:10,920 --> 01:04:13,360 I've got as much informat I still I got a box of documents I came 959 01:04:13,360 --> 01:04:16,599 across the other day on the AMSA heist, which was almost eleven million from 960 01:04:16,679 --> 01:04:19,719 nineteen ninety, which is a whole other great story, But I just don't 961 01:04:19,719 --> 01:04:24,320 think of another heist book in me. People have approached me about it, 962 01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:30,880 I'm sure. I'm sure. So over this forty two year career and seeing 963 01:04:30,679 --> 01:04:34,639 the good, the bad, the art side, what have you learned about 964 01:04:34,679 --> 01:04:40,559 humanity? You know, I am maybe seem like a silly question, but 965 01:04:40,599 --> 01:04:45,519 it doesn't at all. No, I am still I guess I still want 966 01:04:45,519 --> 01:04:49,519 to believe in the good in people. Yeah, I mean, obviously I 967 01:04:49,599 --> 01:04:54,480 see a lot that isn't. But you know, but I see, you 968 01:04:54,519 --> 01:04:57,199 know, we talked about law enforcement. Most people I known law enforcement out 969 01:04:57,199 --> 01:04:59,800 there, you know, busting their butts to try to do the right thing 970 01:04:59,840 --> 01:05:04,840 for right good people in all neighborhoods, and and so I still kind of 971 01:05:04,880 --> 01:05:09,519 hold on to that, you kind and I think that helps me with the 972 01:05:09,559 --> 01:05:13,440 coverage. I mean, I talk about people through the years who've gotten in 973 01:05:13,480 --> 01:05:16,920 trouble. I mean I didn't cover Shawcross. I did cover some of Bruce 974 01:05:16,960 --> 01:05:21,559 Bihowski, who uh killed three I think four at least and but doesn't want 975 01:05:21,599 --> 01:05:27,400 to be called a serial killer. That defends him and you know, and 976 01:05:27,559 --> 01:05:30,000 I know, no, you know, and I mean, I but I 977 01:05:30,000 --> 01:05:32,960 got to know. I mean, it's weird because Bruce Wrot first name. 978 01:05:33,159 --> 01:05:35,719 Uh, you know, to the point where when I teach a class at 979 01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:41,079 ri t occasionally at in the criminal justice department about media coverage of crime. 980 01:05:41,639 --> 01:05:45,199 And one year I had the class right questions for Bruce send him to him 981 01:05:45,199 --> 01:05:49,800 in prison. Bruce responded and you know, answered the questions interesting. I 982 01:05:49,840 --> 01:05:54,079 mean, I think it's and it's not that I see good and Bruce necessarily, 983 01:05:54,079 --> 01:05:59,880 but I think I'm I'm fair in my with dealing with the people that 984 01:06:00,039 --> 01:06:02,079 makes sense, But yes it does, I don't I'm not sort of there's 985 01:06:02,079 --> 01:06:05,400 only a couple of big people like the joke because I what was that line 986 01:06:05,440 --> 01:06:11,639 I used one time? But somebody wouldn't let me forget And it's like my 987 01:06:11,760 --> 01:06:14,679 least favorite criminal or my least favorite murders. There's only a couple of people 988 01:06:14,719 --> 01:06:19,079 that I've dealt with in the criminal sector that to this day, I just 989 01:06:19,239 --> 01:06:21,800 I to test what they did, of course, but to the today, 990 01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:25,360 I just detest them as people. You do. Yeah, it makes sense, 991 01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:30,480 it does because I like we've all heard sort of the I guess I'll 992 01:06:30,559 --> 01:06:34,280 label the hippie thing that we're all one and we're all this. But you 993 01:06:34,320 --> 01:06:39,800 know, I kind of buy into that. I think that to your point, 994 01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:44,000 I think there's some good in everybody, and maybe it's a privation of 995 01:06:44,039 --> 01:06:47,920 good with others. I don't believe that there's a dark force out there with 996 01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:54,639 stuff. I just think that you know, you have everybody kind of has 997 01:06:54,719 --> 01:06:58,760 the same, and people are gonna hate this the same opportunities. You just 998 01:06:58,840 --> 01:07:04,599 choose different as and sometimes yes, you're born into different circumstances, but ultimately 999 01:07:04,639 --> 01:07:08,519 you get out of that and then you get to choose more and more and 1000 01:07:08,559 --> 01:07:10,880 more. Yeah. And I'm not saying, like with Bruce Pahowski, that 1001 01:07:10,880 --> 01:07:13,000 I ever wanted to come out of prison. No, I don't. But 1002 01:07:13,039 --> 01:07:16,079 at the same time I can communicate with him. Yes, on a personal 1003 01:07:16,159 --> 01:07:20,119 level. It's a fascinating career. This has been quite a conversation. Before 1004 01:07:20,159 --> 01:07:24,599 you go, though, I do want to hear the the Amy Baby Fisher 1005 01:07:24,679 --> 01:07:28,840 Amy Fisher's story only because I mean, look, I was I mean, 1006 01:07:28,840 --> 01:07:32,840 it was Long Island at that time. What year was that, eight nineties? 1007 01:07:33,000 --> 01:07:36,519 That had to be like ninety ninety. Well, I think she was 1008 01:07:36,559 --> 01:07:40,840 in prison in ninety six. Yeah, but I mean I thought the murder 1009 01:07:40,880 --> 01:07:45,239 happened in like the early nineties because Joey was shooting. Yeah, Joey Butterfuco, 1010 01:07:45,320 --> 01:07:47,639 Yeah, right, right to shooting. But oh no, it was 1011 01:07:47,760 --> 01:07:53,440 uh Mary Mary Joe. Wasn't it to Mary Joe Copecne? Yeah, yeah, 1012 01:07:53,480 --> 01:07:55,960 no, yes, so Joey Joey was the boyfriend, right, but 1013 01:07:56,039 --> 01:07:58,559 what was his wife's name? I can't remember. I thought her name was 1014 01:07:58,559 --> 01:08:00,440 Mary Joe Butfuco. Yeah, I think you're where am I coming up? 1015 01:08:00,559 --> 01:08:04,440 Married Compacne? That's another case. But yeah, yeah, there was the 1016 01:08:04,480 --> 01:08:08,440 wife who got shot by Amy. Yeah. Amy so just showed up and 1017 01:08:09,199 --> 01:08:12,960 you know that, a young girl in love and so so in the mid 1018 01:08:13,039 --> 01:08:15,239 nineties, she did she go to Attica? Oh no, she went to 1019 01:08:15,359 --> 01:08:19,159 Albion. She was there and that's where we well we never met, but 1020 01:08:19,199 --> 01:08:25,039 I met her mom so a couple of times early. So what happened in 1021 01:08:25,079 --> 01:08:28,119 the mid nineties, it's hard to believe. I mean, I can't imagine 1022 01:08:28,119 --> 01:08:30,159 this happening. I was doing a series of stories or working on some research 1023 01:08:30,920 --> 01:08:35,119 on the female prisons in New York and in the conditions there, and there 1024 01:08:35,119 --> 01:08:38,760 were a lot there were issues of you know, some issues of sexual assault 1025 01:08:38,800 --> 01:08:42,479 by corrections officers, and there's issues of health care that really was not geared 1026 01:08:42,479 --> 01:08:45,840 towards women. It really was not at all. And I was doing a 1027 01:08:45,880 --> 01:08:48,279 lot of research on this. It's hard to I can't even imagine it's happening 1028 01:08:48,319 --> 01:08:54,840 now. Prisoner's Legal Services knew I was working on this, and actually because 1029 01:08:54,840 --> 01:08:57,720 I communicated with them the cases and they like put word out at Albion. 1030 01:08:57,720 --> 01:09:00,359 You know, if you if you have any issues, you know, let 1031 01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:02,560 us know. We'll contact Gary. And you know, you know a lot 1032 01:09:02,600 --> 01:09:04,840 of people in prison claim they have issues which they don't. But there was 1033 01:09:05,079 --> 01:09:09,439 there was a lot of legitimate well you know, part of this was looking 1034 01:09:09,439 --> 01:09:13,800 at some sexual assault stuff. Well this is the same time Amy Fisher brings 1035 01:09:13,840 --> 01:09:17,199 a lawsuit claiming that she'd been raped by one or two corrections officers at Albion 1036 01:09:17,199 --> 01:09:20,880 in Orleans County. I, to be honest, was trying to keep this 1037 01:09:20,960 --> 01:09:26,039 away from Amy Fisher's story because I didn't because that would just overwhelm everything, 1038 01:09:26,079 --> 01:09:28,239 because there's a lot of other women that were having issues that you know, 1039 01:09:28,439 --> 01:09:30,000 we're not going to get because it was not going to make a tabloid. 1040 01:09:31,079 --> 01:09:34,640 Well, so what happens is Amy Fisher's mom gets wind of it and reaches 1041 01:09:34,640 --> 01:09:40,239 out to me that I'm doing this, and so so we start meeting and 1042 01:09:40,399 --> 01:09:42,439 I think I can tell us now, I don't think she would mind us, 1043 01:09:42,680 --> 01:09:45,680 and so we start meeting and she tells me, you know, I've 1044 01:09:47,760 --> 01:09:51,039 it's almost like the Bill Clinton thing. I can't remember what it was pants 1045 01:09:51,079 --> 01:09:56,800 or something or underwear that we smuggled out that have seamen stains on him from 1046 01:09:56,800 --> 01:10:01,399 one of the corrections officers. Wow, and it's like whoa, okay said, 1047 01:10:01,399 --> 01:10:04,399 But we're getting it tested to prove it to seamen and all. You 1048 01:10:04,439 --> 01:10:06,159 know, So we're getting it tested, so you can't write anying, get 1049 01:10:06,199 --> 01:10:13,560 or anything that's okay. And I'm still obviously I got to want the story. 1050 01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:15,880 There's that part of me it wants the story. But I still don't 1051 01:10:15,920 --> 01:10:17,960 want this whole series because at this point in time, I've interviewed a number 1052 01:10:17,960 --> 01:10:23,039 of women and at Albion and actually downstate too, who've had some issues, 1053 01:10:23,680 --> 01:10:25,439 and I really want this story to be them, and I want to be 1054 01:10:25,439 --> 01:10:29,840 Amy Fisher. I'll never free cat where my in laws then lived in Northern 1055 01:10:29,920 --> 01:10:32,880 Virginia, and we would often go down fifteen and into Northern Virginia. And 1056 01:10:33,000 --> 01:10:39,680 we're driving fifteen. We stopped for lunch your dinner somewhere as a weekend, 1057 01:10:39,760 --> 01:10:42,600 and I pick up the Daily. No, it's probably the New York Post, 1058 01:10:43,239 --> 01:10:45,359 and there's a story on there about love letters from Amy Fisher to a 1059 01:10:45,399 --> 01:10:50,880 corrections officer and which really didn't quite have anything to do, but clearly somebody's 1060 01:10:50,880 --> 01:10:54,039 like, okay, we're going to get Amy Fisher in trouble in prison. 1061 01:10:54,079 --> 01:10:57,479 And she had done it, written the letters. But I knew this was 1062 01:10:57,560 --> 01:11:00,359 going to take off the mother, So I've reached out to them other right 1063 01:11:00,399 --> 01:11:01,520 away, and she says, yeah, and we've got the DNA back in 1064 01:11:01,600 --> 01:11:03,960 it Seemen and she tells me this. Of course I'm on the way to 1065 01:11:04,039 --> 01:11:08,039 Virginia. Yeah. So I'm like calling the office and saying, hey, 1066 01:11:08,479 --> 01:11:11,239 you guys, sorry, you guys got to do this story. So sure 1067 01:11:11,319 --> 01:11:14,199 enough, we're so then, but then they give me the name of the 1068 01:11:14,279 --> 01:11:17,159 corrections officer who the interluded happened with. And it's the same guy that I've 1069 01:11:17,159 --> 01:11:20,760 already got two other women. Wow. Talking about wow, I was like, 1070 01:11:20,800 --> 01:11:25,399 oh, and so we do the initial story, which we don't really 1071 01:11:25,520 --> 01:11:27,600 name the guy at that point because I don't think I had it a point 1072 01:11:27,600 --> 01:11:30,800 where I could name him. I call I think another reporter ends I'm doing 1073 01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:32,880 the story. You know that wasn't like add a laptops, So I think, 1074 01:11:32,920 --> 01:11:35,079 go with me. Then, so I get to connect. We get 1075 01:11:35,119 --> 01:11:39,119 the story, you know, Daily News and New York Post follows it a 1076 01:11:39,159 --> 01:11:41,720 week later. And this is actually, this is what's talking about being proud 1077 01:11:41,760 --> 01:11:45,079 of. This is even though I was writing some stuff about questionable practice of 1078 01:11:45,119 --> 01:11:48,359 the corrections department, I had a good relationship with him because I was always 1079 01:11:48,399 --> 01:11:51,000 fair, to the point that when they put out the press release about this, 1080 01:11:51,800 --> 01:11:56,880 they said, as first reported in the Democrat and chronicles in the corrections 1081 01:11:57,720 --> 01:12:01,720 and so it went. Then we end up doing the story later that identifies, 1082 01:12:01,800 --> 01:12:04,560 you know, not only is the guy accused of this with Amy Fisher's, 1083 01:12:04,560 --> 01:12:08,199 but here's two other women. We've interviewed, one Albion one I think 1084 01:12:08,239 --> 01:12:12,680 a Taconic downstate. And and so when Amy Fisher came out, if you 1085 01:12:13,000 --> 01:12:16,720 find her autobiography, I'm in there, could thank or something. And when 1086 01:12:16,760 --> 01:12:19,520 she came out of prison, she was scheduled doing it and she did an 1087 01:12:19,560 --> 01:12:24,159 interview with Oprah. She did an interview with Oprah, like one day, 1088 01:12:24,359 --> 01:12:28,640 the week after we actually had the first interview. She called me for the 1089 01:12:28,680 --> 01:12:31,000 first interview, but she said, but just I've told yet, can you 1090 01:12:31,039 --> 01:12:33,720 wait till Oprah airs? Because I've told her that she will be first. 1091 01:12:34,079 --> 01:12:38,399 So like we had the interview the next day after the Oprah. It was 1092 01:12:38,520 --> 01:12:41,760 it was just a crazy time. Yeah, that is that is a crazy 1093 01:12:41,840 --> 01:12:45,880 time. Who's the most famous person in your phone? I've got a new 1094 01:12:45,920 --> 01:12:50,399 phone in ninety percent of my contacts didn't migrate. So technology, you know, 1095 01:12:50,600 --> 01:12:56,239 it's interesting. I don't you know, I I don't think mostly local. 1096 01:12:56,359 --> 01:12:59,079 I actually, did you know if I had my old Rolodex, which 1097 01:13:00,039 --> 01:13:02,960 which I really wish I hadn't gotten rid of, I did have Vonnegut in 1098 01:13:03,000 --> 01:13:05,319 there. I had Vonnicuts. Oh, I always was a fan of I 1099 01:13:05,359 --> 01:13:09,800 had Vonnegut's number in New York, Okay, and it was I did a 1100 01:13:09,920 --> 01:13:12,960 magazine small magazine piece on him one time. He was in Virginia where I 1101 01:13:13,039 --> 01:13:15,359 was working in my first newspaper, and spent much of a day and did 1102 01:13:15,399 --> 01:13:18,359 it like a Virginia magazine article. And he was promoting the book for his 1103 01:13:18,560 --> 01:13:25,560 wife, who was a photographer Chile baking out but and he did a great 1104 01:13:25,840 --> 01:13:29,039 He really wanted me to promote the book. And I forgot something about the 1105 01:13:29,079 --> 01:13:32,119 book when I was writing the story and my notes weren't clear, and I 1106 01:13:32,279 --> 01:13:34,279 called his agent and said, look, can you just get this answer. 1107 01:13:34,319 --> 01:13:36,800 It's just like one sentence, but I just want to make sure because he 1108 01:13:36,880 --> 01:13:40,680 really wanted to mention it. So I'm living in Farmville, Virginia, of 1109 01:13:40,720 --> 01:13:43,840 all places. One Saturday morning, the phone rings. It' Vonnegut and he 1110 01:13:43,880 --> 01:13:46,319 says, hey, I just like the agent could have gotten answered. I 1111 01:13:46,399 --> 01:13:48,119 just heard you had this question. Let me clear it up. And we 1112 01:13:48,199 --> 01:13:51,079 talked for like fifteen minutes, and he said, here's my number if you 1113 01:13:51,119 --> 01:13:53,840 ever want to call. And I always wish I never did. Again, 1114 01:13:54,000 --> 01:13:57,119 Yeah, sure, but I wish I did. Yeah. How interesting? 1115 01:13:57,600 --> 01:14:01,520 You know when you look at now the guys on the podcast always make fun 1116 01:14:01,520 --> 01:14:05,560 of me because I say the barrier to entry is gone right now you can 1117 01:14:05,640 --> 01:14:13,720 do anything we had. There's an independent journalist who wrote a I think a 1118 01:14:14,399 --> 01:14:17,239 twenty thousand word I'm going to call it an essay on the Buffalo bills and 1119 01:14:17,319 --> 01:14:23,039 all, and I have read some of it. It's behind the paywall. 1120 01:14:23,439 --> 01:14:26,840 I have no problem with that. And I think some of the stuff you 1121 01:14:26,960 --> 01:14:30,239 could say was fair on the leadership. But do you see some of the 1122 01:14:30,319 --> 01:14:35,159 things that get sensationalized. And in this story, the sensationalized part is that 1123 01:14:35,279 --> 01:14:41,600 coach McDermott used in referenced nine to eleven as a motivational speech in what was 1124 01:14:41,680 --> 01:14:45,159 it? Four years ago? Twenty seventeen to oh, twenty nineteen? And 1125 01:14:45,239 --> 01:14:51,159 I believe, I know that I was told that the local press knew about 1126 01:14:51,199 --> 01:14:56,479 it at the time. He had apologized to the players, and none of 1127 01:14:56,520 --> 01:15:00,439 the players spoke about it outside of that. I mean, when you're looking 1128 01:15:00,479 --> 01:15:04,359 at things and in the independent way it is, I mean, look, 1129 01:15:04,479 --> 01:15:09,800 I think Anison Cooper started out granted he had deeper pockets for most people to 1130 01:15:09,840 --> 01:15:12,479 go find these stories and well, I don't know if you do the Shining 1131 01:15:12,520 --> 01:15:15,720 Path of Peru or whatever it was, but the uh, what would be 1132 01:15:15,800 --> 01:15:20,359 your advice because sometimes the sensational stuff certainly gets people, and you want to 1133 01:15:20,600 --> 01:15:26,720 and a good headline and if it bleeds leads in that old news adage isn't 1134 01:15:26,760 --> 01:15:31,800 necessarily wrong. But there's something about just a good story and telling it fairly. 1135 01:15:32,000 --> 01:15:34,840 I think that's I think that's key. I'm and I probably making my 1136 01:15:35,000 --> 01:15:40,720 editors crazy because I am so yeah, because like court stories, you have 1137 01:15:40,800 --> 01:15:44,159 to be so nuanced with the headline, and I think to be fair to 1138 01:15:44,199 --> 01:15:46,600 everybody involved, and I'm constantly like, up, can't do that. That's 1139 01:15:46,720 --> 01:15:50,319 that's going too far. And but but I think, I mean A, 1140 01:15:51,359 --> 01:15:55,079 I think you've hitting both nails on the head A telling the story in a 1141 01:15:55,119 --> 01:15:57,720 way that's going to bring the reader in and keep the you know, we 1142 01:15:57,840 --> 01:16:00,720 have metrics where you know, I can look on the line and say, 1143 01:16:00,720 --> 01:16:02,439 oh, so many people are reading my story right now right And to me, 1144 01:16:02,680 --> 01:16:05,239 yeah, I mean I want to have as many as possible. But 1145 01:16:05,319 --> 01:16:09,159 to me, the engagement time number where I see they're staying in the story 1146 01:16:09,199 --> 01:16:13,600 and they're not abandoned it after four paragraph is important to me. And and 1147 01:16:13,680 --> 01:16:15,399 so telling the story and then I think telling it fairly, I think, 1148 01:16:15,399 --> 01:16:17,920 you know, I've been doing it a long time, so I don't know 1149 01:16:17,960 --> 01:16:21,880 if I started now and that was my approach, what I would I still 1150 01:16:21,920 --> 01:16:24,920 have? You know that. Thankfully, I've got a lot of people like 1151 01:16:25,000 --> 01:16:27,199 to read my stuff. I'm very happy about that and thank them. You 1152 01:16:27,239 --> 01:16:29,680 know, what I have that now, I don't know, is just something 1153 01:16:29,680 --> 01:16:32,119 I've developed through the ears. But and maybe it's harder to do that now. 1154 01:16:32,159 --> 01:16:36,119 And there's so many again we talked about so many people want their ideology 1155 01:16:36,239 --> 01:16:42,720 reinforced every day. Yeah, yeah, yes, what let's say when when 1156 01:16:43,439 --> 01:16:45,119 you said you're going to retire, maybe in two years that's the plan. 1157 01:16:45,359 --> 01:16:50,159 My wife's retired and I envy her right now? Yeah, sure I don't. 1158 01:16:50,359 --> 01:16:54,359 But you're you're never going to stop. I can see it. I 1159 01:16:54,439 --> 01:16:58,560 mean, you'll never It's just in there. But you're not going to have 1160 01:16:58,680 --> 01:17:02,159 to do the daily grind of it exactly. But when that career, that 1161 01:17:02,279 --> 01:17:08,880 part of the career is over, what would you want people to either say 1162 01:17:08,960 --> 01:17:12,359 behind your back, let's say that, say what would you want them to 1163 01:17:12,399 --> 01:17:14,560 say? Now? What? But maybe what they say what a pain in 1164 01:17:14,560 --> 01:17:16,720 the asked? Maybe change the headline all the time exactly, But what what 1165 01:17:16,800 --> 01:17:19,800 would you want them to say, or what do you want people to know 1166 01:17:20,560 --> 01:17:25,800 about Gary? That's a good question. I mean, if we're talking professionally, 1167 01:17:25,880 --> 01:17:30,399 and I think some of this I think spills over to yourself too professional 1168 01:17:30,960 --> 01:17:34,960 is it comes from our personal yes, settlers, So you can't really completely 1169 01:17:35,000 --> 01:17:39,479 divide the two. I mean, I would think, and I think, 1170 01:17:39,520 --> 01:17:41,359 you know, knock on wood. If I don't screw up the next two 1171 01:17:41,439 --> 01:17:43,520 years, I'm at least on a decent road. Twitter that he you know 1172 01:17:43,680 --> 01:17:47,239 that he he treated people fairly about my career. He reported accurately. You 1173 01:17:47,319 --> 01:17:50,880 know, we could if his name was on it, I could read it 1174 01:17:51,000 --> 01:17:57,399 and believe that I was getting I'm weird in this regard and talk to journalism 1175 01:17:57,520 --> 01:18:00,399 classes about this all down. There's so many people and I don't I don't 1176 01:18:00,399 --> 01:18:03,039 say this is wrong. A lot of my friends do this. I'm seeking 1177 01:18:03,119 --> 01:18:08,039 truth. I'm seeking truth. I'm seeking facts. You know, I don't 1178 01:18:08,159 --> 01:18:11,359 you know, I've sometimes reported things I had all the facts I had at 1179 01:18:11,399 --> 01:18:13,279 the time. In a year later, I wish I'd known this. You 1180 01:18:13,319 --> 01:18:16,680 know, it's still was accurate at the time, right, And just that 1181 01:18:16,880 --> 01:18:20,600 you know that that you know what what I read of Gary Craigs. I 1182 01:18:20,640 --> 01:18:26,960 believe was, you know, the the best most reliable version of facts. 1183 01:18:27,000 --> 01:18:29,199 It could be accumulated at that time and could get me as close to the 1184 01:18:29,279 --> 01:18:33,359 truth as possible at that time. Yeah, that's interesting and in today's world 1185 01:18:33,520 --> 01:18:36,520 harder and harder at times, oh very very you know. I mean we've 1186 01:18:36,560 --> 01:18:41,920 even yesterday we were talking about new AI apps that if you put a picture 1187 01:18:42,000 --> 01:18:45,159 up, they can show you what they believe the person would look like naked. 1188 01:18:45,279 --> 01:18:48,680 So that way is the the think of the problems that we could get 1189 01:18:48,720 --> 01:18:55,159 with that right, go down the line. I believe that the only conviction 1190 01:18:55,720 --> 01:19:01,159 was a psychiatrist because they can't do anything with fake let's call it revenge porn 1191 01:19:01,279 --> 01:19:08,560 or whatever for adults, but minors. So this psychiatrist, I think, 1192 01:19:08,600 --> 01:19:14,880 got forty years because he took pictures of patients fully clothed, put them through 1193 01:19:14,920 --> 01:19:17,920 this app, and then put them out as though they were Yeah, bizarre, 1194 01:19:18,239 --> 01:19:21,720 right, And so you know I was saying to the guys in the 1195 01:19:21,720 --> 01:19:25,119 podcast, I go here would be the thing of that were my child. 1196 01:19:25,159 --> 01:19:29,039 I would never want the kid to know because nothing happened. Yes, you 1197 01:19:29,079 --> 01:19:30,880 know what I'm saying, Nothing happened, And I said that was always like 1198 01:19:31,319 --> 01:19:35,239 a problem with me in certain relationships because well, we'll wait a second. 1199 01:19:35,319 --> 01:19:38,960 Something didn't No, no, nothing happened to the kid. I understand this 1200 01:19:39,079 --> 01:19:42,960 person's got a real problem. We need that person needs help. But nothing 1201 01:19:43,039 --> 01:19:45,840 happened to the kids. So let's not scare the kid because this is one 1202 01:19:46,399 --> 01:19:51,319 the bad apple gets the spotlight. There's more good than bad. Yeah, 1203 01:19:51,399 --> 01:19:55,960 exactly right, And that's always that's always the case. Yeh. Yeah. 1204 01:19:56,039 --> 01:19:59,319 So hopefully hopefully when I'm done, that's and hopefully between that when I'm done, 1205 01:19:59,399 --> 01:20:01,199 Yeah, yeah, people will read the stuff. It's yeah, well 1206 01:20:01,239 --> 01:20:05,199 I think that's I think that, you know, if that was the aim 1207 01:20:05,359 --> 01:20:09,479 for you, you've hit the mark. It's been very Uh it wasn't that. 1208 01:20:10,479 --> 01:20:12,479 I'm usually aimless, so I don't really know if I had an aim, 1209 01:20:12,560 --> 01:20:15,319 but well, I mean, if the idea was to get the facts, 1210 01:20:15,600 --> 01:20:19,039 I believe that that you've you've hit that well pretty well, right, 1211 01:20:19,199 --> 01:20:23,119 you know, And it's been uh, what a great conversation. I could 1212 01:20:23,159 --> 01:20:26,239 talk to you for a wonderful thank you. Yeah, this has been a 1213 01:20:26,359 --> 01:20:30,279 real pleasure. Please go to uh Gary craig writer dot com. You can 1214 01:20:30,359 --> 01:20:34,319 buy the book there. Yes, seven million. It's a great Christmas gift 1215 01:20:34,359 --> 01:20:38,479 for somebody. I mean, and you know, if people want to uh, 1216 01:20:40,159 --> 01:20:42,880 they can just write me at my work account G Craig G c R 1217 01:20:42,920 --> 01:20:45,520 E I G at g A an e tt dot com. And I I've 1218 01:20:45,600 --> 01:20:49,920 met people to sign books at Starbucks and other places if they really nice, 1219 01:20:50,039 --> 01:20:53,600 and we still do some signing is great. And again, let me The 1220 01:20:53,680 --> 01:20:56,920 prison Guard's Daughter, which I co wrote with de Quinn Miller's just I was 1221 01:20:57,039 --> 01:20:59,199 honored to be able to tell her story, to be able to help her 1222 01:20:59,239 --> 01:21:01,880 tell her story. Is that book also available through the website your website think 1223 01:21:02,000 --> 01:21:05,279 so? Okay, but it's definitely Amazon and Barnes and Noble definitely. Yes. 1224 01:21:05,439 --> 01:21:11,399 Okay, all right, Gary Craig please read his stuff in the Democratic 1225 01:21:11,479 --> 01:21:15,119 Chronicle as well, and it is fantastic. Thank you, Gary. It's 1226 01:21:15,119 --> 01:21:16,880 been a lot of fun. I appreciate it. I'm Bill Moran. We'll 1227 01:21:16,960 --> 01:21:38,720 see Tomorrowtail didn't know what to do. I'm TV. BTV would fire pizza 1228 01:21:38,760 --> 01:21:41,479 and grill in the mall at Greece Ridge. If you're going back to do 1229 01:21:41,640 --> 01:21:45,279 returnables, why not returnables since I can? But you know, gifts that 1230 01:21:45,359 --> 01:21:47,239 you think you may have to return somewhere. You got the wrong size, 1231 01:21:47,479 --> 01:21:50,520 or you got something you didn't like but you pretended to like but you really 1232 01:21:50,560 --> 01:21:53,359 didn't like, but there was a gift receipts, so you're gonna bring it 1233 01:21:53,439 --> 01:21:57,640 back. Well. bTB, stop in, have a great lunch, fantastic 1234 01:21:57,720 --> 01:22:00,199 specials the month of December. Get in there, have one of There are 1235 01:22:00,239 --> 01:22:02,560 great drinks over fifty TVs. You're never going to miss any of the action 1236 01:22:02,680 --> 01:22:05,600 when you're there. You know what, They have a shareable that I really 1237 01:22:05,600 --> 01:22:11,560 won't try, and I haven't yet. It's the Dorido crusted mozzarella stick. 1238 01:22:11,640 --> 01:22:14,319 How good does that sound? Even if it's just shareables because a lot of 1239 01:22:14,439 --> 01:22:16,319 us have eaten, eaten, but you get hungry. You're working up an 1240 01:22:16,319 --> 01:22:21,439 appetite. bTB wood Fire Pizza and Grille in the mall at Grease Ridge