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Hotel SPA dot com. From the Mac of All Trade Studio in Fairport and
driven by Victor Chrysler Dots jeep Ram, It's Bilified the Bill Moran Podcast.
Well, hello and welcome. Thanks for getting your pot on, thanks for
telling a friend. That's how we spread the word about the pirate ship.
Today a nice one on one and I've been excited to do this for a
while. It was always a big fan. Gary Craig is. I'll just
read what they have in the Democrat and Chronicle website. He is a member
of the Democrat and Chronicles Watchdog team and focuses on public safety and criminal justice.
Has worked in Rochester newspapers since the early nineties or nineteen ninety covering city
hall politics federal courts before joining the newspaper's investigative team. He has won state
national investigative writing awards. He also has a website, Garycraig writer dot com,
and his book seven Million is about one of the biggest and most mysterious
heists of our aides, the Brinx robbery. Here which happened? What year?
Gary? Give you the date? January fifth, nineteen ninety three.
Nineteen ninety three, Okay, so I would have been I think I had
taken a sabbatical from Saint John Fisher for that year at the request of my
father, and then and I wound up working in radio midnight to six.
It was the greatest training ground ever. Yeah. I used to call payphones
and ask for the weather down in the like the worst parts of Poughkeepsie,
That's where I grew up, made and cherry, and it would where like
all the drug dealers and pim's hung out and they would answer the phone in
the middle of the night. Oh that's it's so funny talking about payphones because
I used to. Yeah, I was still of the era where we would
dash in court to try to beat each other to the payphones to call the
office to break a story about it. Yeah, happened at court, right,
Sure, boy, isn't that funny? How technology is? I have
so many questions to ask you, but let's start here. How does it
all begin for you? Well, let me go with this. What did
your parents do? My mother stayed home with the kids, and my dad
was both a pilot and a professional photographer. He did both. He was
a pilot, Yeah, he was both military, then he was commercial,
and then he was actually uh, then he was private corporate. Did you
move around a lot as a pilot? No? No, I mean by
the time I was the second wave of children we had. I have three
brothers, and my older brothers are thirteen and ten years older. And by
the time he was doing some commercial flying when I was born, and then
he went corporate and we moved to Winston Salem where Rgie Reynolds Wasn't he corporate
for them for a while, Okay? And I like to joke my two
older brothers. One it was a pilot for life. He's retired out of
the other is a great photographer, does and other stuff. So I was
sort of left without anything, you know. Yeah, but I don't have
anything left to screat. That's funny because my uncle was a pilot nom and
then was a pilot for Western Airlines and then they got bought out by Delta,
and then he was the president of the union. I spend the summer
with him. He lives in Park City. That's great. Yeah. And
my brother was the old Southern airline, Piedmont Airlines, and they got okay,
US Airways. So you're a Southern guy. Yeah. I'm born in
Virginia, grew up in North Carolina, worked in Virginia, then came here.
Yeah, so that that's kind of a is it was a culture shock
coming to the Northeast a little bit, or at least weather shock. Yeah.
The weather or the weather might have been more of a shock. And
but I I've acclimated. I I don't to me, it's you know,
the cold in the snow. Don't bother me that, I guess probably what
bothers me most if it's March and April and it's still gray, and yes,
south right spring has come. Yes, let me be one thing real
quick, if you don't mind, I'm yeah. Also, wonder if I
needed to know? So? But were you? Did you always? I
wanted to say the way I would describe you as your storyteller? You tell
people's stories. So was that always something inside you? It's interesting. I
love to write as a kid. I mean I wrote. I wrote for
high school newspapers and college newspapers, and edited the college newspaper one year.
And then where did you? Where was that? It's a small college in
northern uh and north of Richmond, Randolph Making College, which made the Division
three semifinals this past weekend, but they got crushed by Courtland in football football.
Yeah, I heard Courtland. It did very very well. It was
ugly. But then I came out of school and and realized I wasn't going
to write the great American novel soon if ever, and and went into newspaper
in a small Farmville, Virginia, a small newspaper started there, and in
the in the Northern Virginia. Then here in the process, I actually found
that I loved the reporting almost as much as the writing. I loved the
not even more. Some days. I love the the interview and the ability
to meet people. I love documents. I can I can live in a
stack of documents for hours trying to find the one seed of a news story.
So is there there's a bit of detective in you? Would that be
fair to say? I think so. I didn't. I didn't realize that
until I got in the newspaper. Uh, and the yeah, that's that's
probably safe to say. Yeah. So the plan was to be the great
American novelist. But then you you there's clearly a passion for writing, and
clearly a passion for finding. But you kind of like the research and the
finding that that thing that we don't know very very much. I uh,
that's it exactly. And and and the more you do it, especially with
documents and interviews too, but especially with documents, you get to the point
where I think you're able to find that that nugget in five hundred pages without
having to read all five hundred pages. You get better at knowing well,
well, yeah, I always say with anything, it's reps in life,
right, that's it exactly rep That's exactly what it is. Yeah, and
it's the more you do it, the more you do it, the more
you do it. So what is kind Who was the biggest influence, let's
say, on you on your career. Was there anybody as you went through
that you went, well, I really admire what this person did. Or
I mean it could even be your parents in terms of just being supportive and
stuff. No, I mean, yeah, the family for sure, probably
to be honestly, the editor at the daily I worked with in Northern Virginia,
Craig Nesbit, who actually left newspaper oddly enough, because he, as
I recall, and this is after I'd left him come up here and he
was working elsewhere. He was like encouraged by the owner of a newspaper to
do a hit piece on somebody that the owner didn't like. And yeah,
they did all the research and wasn't anything there. And the person was like,
still, yeah, that wasn't your staff find something dirty on this person?
And this guy, this guy was the most hard driving, hardcore news
or. And I think that's where a lot of the reporting. I enjoyed
it before that, but working under Craig, he was just he was a
mentor, just hard you know, that old term newsman, but hardcore newsman.
He was that person. I just I learned so much from him and
found how much I really enjoyed doing it. Yeah, because it is.
It takes a lot. Because I was thinking, like, there's a bit
of Colombo there as you're digging through things, and you know, I gotta
think that maybe doing that kind of research, seeing things, seeing patterns of
behavior with people, Yes, maybe you have even helped you as a parent.
When your kids tried to pull one over your it's probably best to ask
them about that. I was just talking to our oldest daughter last night on
the phone and she was talking about stuff, and then I was asking a
number of probably half ear you know. Some of the questions were relevant,
some were not relevant. And she started laughing and she talked about her somebody
in her life who says, you know, you always ask too many questions,
and she said, I got that from your dad. Yeah, I
was asking questions that had nothing to do with really what we were talking about.
Yeah, but it sometimes gives you the uh, well, it opens
people up. Yes, right, it's disarming in a way. Yeah,
And you know, in interviewing what you know from doing it. I mean
there is kind of an art to interviewing and you I mean there's different interviews.
I mean I do actually a lot of arts reporting too, because I
enjoy it and we don't really have much of an art staff anymore. And
so you know, if I sit down with like recently Danielle Ponder or somebody
else in doing interview, that's very different from if I'm sitting down with somebody
who I know, you know, built you know, company X out of
hundreds of thousands of dollars. So you're really, you know, you're framing
each one differently. Well, yeah, I would think that you have such
a calm demeanor, nice way about you that I would think talking to you
would be very easy. But I also wonder for you, and I think
I know the answer. But seeing some of the ugly side of humanity,
right, I mean, you're seeing sometimes people at the worst, people who
have gone through really tough things. It does it give you ever change your
perspective on mankind humanity? Like did it change your do you distrust at all
more? Or you more let's say cautious. I'm probably more cautious. I
mean, you know that the thing of reporting is the old adage. You
know, if your mother says she loves you, check it out. So
there's you know, so there's always that sort of level of you you're gonna
have to prove. How do you do that? I don't know that.
Yeah, I don't know that. Well, we'll let me say this.
Let me ask you this. When your mom says I love all of you
equally, yes, right, Because I have three sons, my youngest son
will always say to me, come on, exactly, come on, dad.
You know I'm your favorite. Stay away from that conversation. Yes,
this is the conversation you stay away from. However, as a reporter,
did you ever try to kind of figure that out on your own? I
never know. I never did. So how many kids in your family growing
up? Well, I I lost my parents actually at an early age.
So oh I'm sorry, Oh no, no, thank no, thank you.
I mean it's a long time ago, as I was eight years old,
but so two brothers older brothers thirteen and ten years older, and then
my parents died in a plane crash. But it's funny I still love to
fly, have no problem with it. And the younger brother was on the
plane too, So so I really from eight years old, I had yeah,
pretty much two older brothers. And the who raised you actually my oldest
brother he was you know, I was eight, he was twenty one.
He got married shortly thereafter, and so they had an eight year old son
to start with. And so yeah, so they they raised me, and
uh yeah, and yeah, I can never be thankful enough. That's amazing.
Yeah, no, they're great. Just a dear older brother. He's
the one that flew. He's been retired, he keeps seventy seven and he's
still training military people in flight simula. Yeah, and my uncle was doing
that too for a while. Yeah that's a great gig. And uh so
yeah, so that's so. So it's weird. I mean, it's like
what res' hearts meat answer with my mother question, I may have asked her
if yes, I'm sorry. I didn't know what I was stepping into.
But I finally, don't worry. Don't worry. I know, I find
this very very interesting because I'm thinking I have a son who's twenty one.
I wouldn't trust him with an eight year old and maybe my brother at that
age, who knows, and well I didn't know better. Sometimes I think
that you'll know this probably from all the stories you've done over a lifetime.
People rise to the occasion, oh very much. And yeah he's solid,
salt of the earth, right, wonderful person, which means that she probably
had really solid parents. Yes, yeah, I believe. I mean and
in my middle brother, I say middle because of the three of us,
it's sort of the family or he lives lives in Costa Rican now the family
archivest and he's constantly sending me old photos and history of stuff that I don't
really remember sure my age. Yeah wow, yeah so that's yeah, so
that yeah, so that's and it's against something I don't mind talking about.
If it comes up in conversation, I talk about it, but it's not
something by the way. Yeah, no, no, this is something that
did you mind if I ask more questions? Because I really find something like
that really forges who you are? Does that make you more independent? Like
you're kind of on your own? Like at twenty one, now you're gonna
raise your and I obviously everything worked out right, twenty one year old brothers
raising you but that's not mom and dad to guide. It's not dad playing
in the backyard. There are certain things you just I guess you intuitively know
you become a parent. It's almost like intuitive it's a different it's a different
thing than probably you're still my younger brother and you annoy me, right,
and then not that your kids don't annoy you, that's not but it's a
different and uh, I mean where you kind of on your own, is
that what made you this this guy who goes and finds answers to things.
Because yet you'll only really had you to rew eye on to figure it out.
That's a good question. I think it did breed independence. But at
the same time, I think, yeah, my brother and sister in law
were as solid as parents from day one of having to take me, and
they didn't have to. They chose to take me in as has you know,
I'd been their own child. Year later in life. Sure, I
mean my brother started, I mean he was flying for the airlines and it's
early twenty. He was always very he was he was teaching flying when,
you know, because he learned from my dad teaching flying when he was probably
twenty. And then a couple of years later, he was already with the
airlines, so he was already on a very sort of professional adult route,
right, right, And so I think there is that probably that independence which
which I thought about, do you mam a good point that I think comes
from that. But at the same time, I wasn't really alone, and
I still had a very solid familial structure, yes, right, and people
you could count on and be there. And you know, there's a lot
of bumps and things that happened growing up that's inevitable. I mean, you
know, that's a it's a you know, it's clearly a tragic situation and
your nerves are a frayed in the outset, but you sort of and again
this is from an eight year old memory. Yeah, yeah, sure,
you push the wood and then it became really a fairly I think typical life
from there on. Yeah. So that's that's an impressive I f I I.
I don't know, there's something about that that I find uh comforting in
a way, that that family comes together, that you're you're an eight year
old boy, you're you're lost and you lost your younger brother. That that
is chaotic. I don't know how, you know, just to even get
through that, and then to be twenty one and trying to cope with it
yourself, and now I'm going to guide you along the way. That's pretty
may downside. And I get reminded of us sometimes from people because because I
did, I think, because I had such a solid sort of landing spot
of land on is I am not as sympathetic sometimes as I probably should be
to people who have had similar events in their life and have gone off the
rails. Yes, right, right, right right, Yes, I do
understand that. And I've had people tell me, I mean, including my
own children, like Dad, you know you were you were really lucky,
you know, you really had that that foundation you had when this happened to
you, and not everybody had that, And so I've been trying to be
better about that even at this age. That's interesting because I always think,
I mean, you're right, right, you can go two paths, yes,
right, some people can't cope at all. Drugs, you try to
escape, right, and then who knows, you go off the rails exactly
exactly. And then the other is that you kind of got this inner guidance
system. And I always think, intuitively, we know, oh yeah,
I don't I mean, I really do. I really believe that all of
us know and if you want to call it your soul, if you believe
in God or whatever, and well, I can't. I wake up every
day and I go, there's got to be a I are intelligence somewhere,
because I often thought about did I rotate the earth properly this morning to make
it? You know what I mean? It's still hanging out there, the
moon, the sun's up, you know, maybe it's cloudy, but I
that I mean those things so to me, and I always go, there's
something in there that we know, we just know, and uh, hopefully
you listen to that and don't and don't and don't let anybody put out that
fire. You know. Oh yeah, that's a great way to put it.
I mean, because there will be a lot of people that, you
know, whether it's a professional, personal, emotional, want to you know,
squelch the fire. Well, it's something that I always say to people.
If you have an idea, don't don't tell anybody. And I would
always try to use the the Biblical And I think my father, who has
a doctor in philosophy, gets annoyed a little bit when I say this,
but because he says, I quote it wrong from the Bible, but when
Jesus would heal people, we would say go forth and tell no one.
And the thinking behind them, in my mind is because if you came in
here and go, hey, I met Jesus and he cured me, and
I'll go, oh, you know, Gary, I mean some people,
it comes back in about two weeks and you know what I mean. And
so then the doubt comes in your head. And it was funny because my
mom just had hip replacement surgery yesterday and she's already up and walking. She
calls me last night and said, you know, somebody was telling me that
the guy in the condo across the way had the same surgery and it's taken
him. Oh he's been in so much pain for three weeks. And I
said, that's why you just don't listen, because if you do, it's
the doubt no matter what it is in life, you know, And I
think for you to just I'm sure you had people go oh, Gary,
I'm so sorry, like when you're a little boy, and how are you
going to do it? And you could really go one of two ways.
No, that's very true, and again, a lot of it is a
blur. I mean I can't really. I mean I can remember some of
the day it happened, and but like you know, I was out of
school for probably two weeks. I can tell you nothing about what it was
like going back to school. I have no recollection of that whatsoever. Sometimes
that's protective in the right way. And then I also think like a lot
of times, you know, events like that, they they can change the
course of your life. But today is today, right, Today is today,
and we have to remember the present moment and that happened then, and
it shouldn't it does since the memory, but we bring that with us.
Yes, we don't have to know exactly the idea of put it down or
as some people say, let go and like god and you know that that
kind of thing that that's what it means. Great words, not easy,
But I always believe that's the real practice. Oh I'm not real practice for
these very reasons. I'm not one that's big on excuse making. I mean,
it's not that I don't accept when people you have something falls, it
goes awry and they have early reasons. But if it's if it's a t
friend in life. Did you ever watch Justified? The show Justified. No
I didn't. This is getting off track, but no, no, no,
I still love it's one of the great I highly recommend FAX start the
first season. It's amazing. It's about a federal marshal and he there's you
know, arrest this guy one day or he's taking him and I forgot maybe
it's some warrant he's got to be still arrest him and the guy's complaining he's
taking him in the guy's complaining about you know, all these people that rubbed
him the wrong way during the day and all I'm paraphrase, but basically,
you know the marshal, the Raylen Gibbons character system. You know, if
you wake up in the morning and you have a bad encounter with somebody,
that person could be the asshole. If your whole day is bad encounters,
you're the asshole. And it's just and I just you know they're there.
That's I have a hard time with people who constantly find bad rationales to do
bad things. Yep, they think it's good rational but yes, and getting
off track and no, no, you're you're kinda not. Because this goes
right to something I say often and I try to tell even my sons.
This is that. It's momentum. So if I get up in the morning
and I stub my toe, God, yes and right, and then then
I go from there and let's say, all of a sudden, I drop
my toothbrush in the toilet, and it's all these minor things. And then
I'm driving to work and I'm bam, I hit a deer. And I
know this sounds completely freaky, but I believe you did that. You did
that. Your brain's a magnet. You did that. You're on this wavelength
of of shitty things. Yes, and if you you control that. And
we don't want to believe it. We want to react to everybody else and
blame everybody else. And the show sounds amazing because I'm a big believer in
you can justify it. But but you know it's a great I can't.
All you do is argue for your limitations, right, That's it. You
know. With the work I do, I hear a lot of people rationalizing.
I'm sure is there any stories over the years, So you wrote for
the Democrat and Chronicle. You come from Virginia right then to hear and then
this is where life kind of you've decided to stay you're gonna make your home.
Yeah, we have yeah, yeah, And it was also The Rochester
at the time, I mean had the morning paper in the afternoon paper,
which I was not. I guess I was somewhat familiar with it. I
don't remember in New York City which one came out in the afternoon, but
I was actually in the Poughkeepsie area. But I remember my family the all
tabloids were the big thing because they were easy to read on the train and
the subway and all that stuff. But yeah, I remember when the afternoon
paper went away, Yes, I remember it. It was a really weird
story, real quickly. Yes, So nineteen ninety two they merged the staffs
the TU the Times Union of the evening paper continued to exist until ninety seven,
I think, but it was basically it was almost like the web.
We would update news during the day, but it was large would have been
in the DNC in the morning. But we had a major, major party
in ninety seven at High Falls upstairs conference space, and I forgot the name
of the restaurant that was the first one there that was really good on the
lower level. And we had because the Ta the Rochester was once the headquarters
of Gannet. So we had corporate leaders coming from all over the country right
for this party, and we got we rented a coffin from Arleans, the
costume shop, and I layered it with historical tears because you know the TU
when the pullups were for Attica coverage and seventy one. But so, good
friend Greg Levadis and I picked up the coffin from I think it was Arlene's.
I think they probably had fake coffins. And to get to the upper
space, we had to go through the downstairs outdoor restaurant and it was it
was a beautiful sunny day and everybody was eating outside and we basically carrying this
what looks like a real coffin right between all of them and winding up the
stairs. It gets it away exactly. We didn't we did, of course,
we just played along. We didn't tell anybody was Yeah, ninety seven
I think was the final TU edition. Okay, now let's talk about some
of your the stories you've covered. I'm sure you've met interesting people. You
did the whole Axe murder one. Now I'm only familiar with the current version
of the stories, but you did a lot of investigating on that when you
do these stories, sometimes you will meet someone who is i'll call them a
survivor, or we'll call them a survivor. Do you ever stay in contact
over the years or check back just on a on a human level, just
because you kind of I can't imagine you don't get somewhat invested. No,
that's very true. There there are definitely some that I do. It's it's
rare, to be honest, okay, because it's just I sadly there's so
many of them. But there's been the late Audrey Smith, who founded Families
and Friends of what was then Families and Friends of Murdered Children. Was the
original name with the last bad you know, not the last but you know
what was the record setting homicide year in Rochester until we had the most recent
which I guess I think it was ninety one, or it may have been
ninety three actually, And she founded that after losing her son, and I
became good friends with Audrey. She died a number of years ago, as
well as members of that group. I was often at their meetings, and
there are you know a number of you know, people who've lost folks.
I stay in touch with her, you know, or they'll they'll they'll reach
out to me and just throw email or whatever and we'll catch up. But
yeah, because I mean, you do a lot what what stories over the
years when you when you think back on a career that how many years would
you say we'll go on? I mean, if I go back, I'm
forty forty two years and forty two years okay, So is there anyone that
kind of jumps off the page in your memory? You know, it's really
weird. I mean I've done Uh, it was funny because I just threw
through a pile of newspapers this morning, because I've forgotten much more than I
remember, and still to this day. My favorite story I've ever worked on
was actually my last. I was doing an investigative series with the Northern Virginia
paper. I worked for the smallest, smaller newspaper or small news. We
were not the smallest. And you try to condense this very much. It
was about electromagnetic pulse testing by the Army in a Northern Virginia base. And
so what electromagnetic pulse is. If you see the day after some of those
nuclear holocaust movies, the nuclear bomb itself as part of its fallouts sets off,
what's this electromagnetic pulse or may not be and what that cripples electronics?
Everywhere they found this out I think in the well they probably knew to a
agree, but they really found out in the fifties with over above ground testing
in Hawaii. Before they shut that down at they just stop lights, everything
went dead, you know, your radios, everything just stopped. And so
in northern Virginia they had this base where they would football size zappers basically the
length of football, and what they would do because they couldn't do real nuclear
testing anymore, and they would bring everything from tanks to transistor radios and they
would try to mimic with this big piece of equipment what electromagnetic pulses like,
and they would zap them and then they would quote harden the wiring the circuitry
to a point where it would survive the electroc with the ideas it would survive.
Okay, so we can still communicate exactly the tanks will roll and everything.
Yeah. Well, the problem was, as well as zapping horizontally,
some of this power goes upward and some of the army officials discovered that it
was it could disrupt what are known flight is flight by wire aircraft with a
lot of commercial arc and it was right in the flight corridor for what was
then National and what is now Reagan Airport. And they, a number of
them tried their darn just to keep this secret. You know. Basically,
they had environmental tests, said hey, you got to be concerned, and
and through some whistle blowers we got when I talk about I literally had which
were later stolen from my car after I moved to Rochester, which is a
whole other story. But thousands of pages of documents about this from whistleblowers and
freedom of information request everything, and I spent six months on this. It
was it was just a blast. It's still my favorite. Let me talk
about sort of detective Yeah, detective work. I mean that's really what is
So as we're talking, more and more questions are coming up in my mind.
But when you cover a story like that and you've got whistle blowers coming
to you, do you ever have somebody go come to you and say,
hey, cut it out, we need to or or stop or any kind
of threat in any way. I know, you know, it's funny because
I've dealt with a lot of you know, quote bad people in my life,
and you know, people who committed crimes, yeah, serial killers,
h you know, former mobsters, et cetera. And I've never in people.
I whenever I do a talk at places, one of the questions afterly
comes up, if you've ever been afraid? And I've actually had, And
I think because I try to be fair with them, and you know,
but I'm still going to call them out for what they did or may have
done. And but no, I really have never. I think. I
think there's only one time in my career where I walked into a situation and
I felt I didn't really think this out, which was was I was going
into the house of a guy who had come out of prison for a I
don't think he got the murder charge. I forgot he got out earlier and
had incriminated somebody else who had done twenty five years that might not have done
it. And this is pre cell phone and everything. I found the guy.
I was going into his house and knocking those doors coming in. You
know, this guy may not want to really tell me the story. And
I've told nobody where I'm going. You know, I told my wife,
I'm going to do an interview as a nighttime interview, And so I walked
into the door as pre cell phone, and I remember just as I walked
in, said yeah, just let's be safer. So I asked a guy,
can I use your phone? Says yeah. I called the office the
desk and said, hey, I know you guys might be look in form
me for something later. So if you need me, you know, here's
the phone number to call me. Okay. And that's the only time I
think I've ever really sort of walked into a situation and said, this is
a little unnerving. Did you get the information we're looking for from the now?
He? I mean, and it may I don't know what the truth
is. I know the guy, the guy came out of prison that I'm
actually still in touch with him and his wife. This fellow who came out
of prison after twenty five years, Uh, we still keep in touch for
you know, he made he was parole and he maintains his innocence in this
murder. And there was a lot of evidence that he didn't do it.
Uh, but he I mean, actually, I mean our stories. He
went to his first parole bid and this was back but you know, when
you really didn't get parole on your first bid on a murder and he used
stories that we'd done, which raiders real questions about the cops from that era
and other convictions they've been involved with were bad convictions, and they released him
on his first parole bid. Do you ever see the uh, the justice
system get it wrong? Oh? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean
I think and I I am a huge support of our justice system. Yeah,
I think it's more often than not gets it right. I agree with
more often than not, I would agree with that, but but there are
times when it gets it wrong, and and more often than not, it's
just it's it's it's not so much that the system goes awry, whether the
statutes or whatever. That can happen too, it's more it's human error.
You get people that get myopic and they just get you know, they get
centered on them. They they're sure they know what happened right, and then
sometimes to reverse that, it's it's almost trying to move egos. I would
assume, Oh, yes, yeah, I think very much. Yeah,
which is who nobody wants to admit being wrong. No, exactly. I
mean that's the thing. I mean, I've done a number of I mean
not done dozens, but you know, a number of wrongful conviction stories through
the years, and and it's it's tough too, because the families of those
who've been convinced that they knew who killed their loved one, yes, and
they find out five, ten, some cases twenty years later they were wrong.
Those same egos that have the investment in the wrongful conviction, it typically
convince those people, you know that they got it right too. Yeah,
And it's really that's tough when you see them sort of battling that, Oh
my gosh, you know, yes, you're wrong all these years, yes,
right, that is I mean, it's funny. Has anything changed your
belief? Did you ever do anything differently after a story that you did?
You know? I mean I always think a belief is just a thought we
think over and over and over again. Right, So along the lines of
what you just said, I've thought for years, over and over and over
again, this person was the person that can committed the murder or the crime.
And then I find out that it's this And it's hard to change that
sometimes. But I mean, I think through the years, it's probably not
one instance. Through the years, you know, Yeah, you learn more
and more as you're doing it. To be skeptical, not cynical, but
skeptical. I think there's a real difference there. And so and I go,
I mean there's some in the profession who will I think they know the
answers right away. They'll see something and whether it's the conspiracy theory or whether
it's this or that, and they'll jump to the conclusion and hope they get
the facts that lead them there. They may or they may not. I
I completely go backwards from that. I don't make any decisions right earlier,
often even until near the end reporting. So talk to me then about your
thoughts on I would I guess the state of journalism today, and well,
you know, we've got social media. I would think that x or Twitter
to me is more where I would find news, where the other stuff is
more. I guess we could call it a news feed on Facebook, but
it's filled with you know, more opinion right right and Twitter X Twitter,
I mean ex Twitter or whatever. The You still have to sort you know,
and know what's reliable and what's not when you're thinking to something. And
it has I think admittedly gotten worse under Musk but uh okay, but it
But you know, I think with all of them, you have to weather
and it's even its your daily media, you know. And that's the problem
now, I think is it's a weird dichotomy where we have far more choices
than we ever have, but people find their silos, their ideological silos or
whatever, and they just and all it does is just solidify their beliefs and
they don't look outside of it. Right, right, I'm looking from like
minded people to support my point of view and exactly and tell me I'm right,
yes, exactly that. And I always think that the world has gone
from uh, conversation, open mind in his dialogue to uh, you're dead
fucking wrong. Yeah, And I think that's the trouble. Oh it is,
I mean, you know, it's it's it's a weird look back.
You know. Greg Popovia is the great coach of the San Antonio Spurs.
You recently stopped the game when they were booing Kawhi Leonard, who plays for
the Clippers and used to play for the Spurs and won them one of their
championship banners. And later he pointed out, you know, he said,
you know, five years ago Kawhi Leonard came of this building and the fans
cheered him because they knew what he'd done for this franchise. And now there
has been this kind of this shift toward meanness at all. That's just really
bothersome. Yeah it is. But I also I'll ask you this because it's
something that gets tossed around a lot, and I don't know if it's a
fully understood concept or not. Freedom of speech, yes, you know,
when you see things and it became a very popular term. It seems to
be the pendulum maybe swinging slightly back, but the cancel culture that we had,
and people say, well, freedom of speech, Well, you know,
private organizations do not have to support because they get advertising dollars that what
you say or what you do. Now we're starting to see things and I
think freedom of speech, in my opinion, is ugly. It can be
ugly because it can be along the lines of what you said. People find
their silos, yes, and they want their beliefs. Now someone speaking out
something I don't like, well I don't like that, yes, but that's
what freedom of speech is. And I'm watching the stuff that's happening on college
campuses with the Palestinian thing, and I think we just had one pro Palestinian
rally on the U of R campus that led to some violence. Yes,
I mean, I'm just seeing the story too. I am as well.
But my only concern when I see now presidents and a lot of influences at
Ivy League schools. Look, I don't like some of the Hummas things.
It was awful, some of the most horrible, inhumane things I've ever seen.
And yet at the same time, I go, but that's what freedom
of speech is, if we're going to speak and assemble peacefully and make our
points. And sometimes I feel like on college campus is that's where ideas should
be exchanged and opened up and dialogue discussion. But we don't do that.
And I think that the dialogue part is I mean, it's it's bothersome to
me on all sides of the spectrum where I mean, are there some people
college campuses probably shouldn't have come speaking if you have like a Holocaust buyer,
you know, but there are some who aren't that far that they're going to
be. But then again, a lot of times some of these we could
go back to the private institution. We have guidelines and standards by which we
cannot you know, we don't support ideologically, but we will allow you to
whatever I don't. I mean, you know you of ours a private college
exactly, so you know, I always think I've always said to people,
look if you if you agree to walk in the door, let's say,
of a church, and this is what they believe, well, then you're
playing by the rules. If you don't want to, don't be part of
that. And that's I get annoyed, I admit with and some of my
friends on both sides of the would probably disagree with me here, but we're
where and it's happened on college campuses where a speaker will come, a speaker
will be controversial, and people just shout him or her down. It's like
if there's a Q and a question, ask pointed questions, right, you
listen. You don't have to agree with it. I mean, as you
said, you know you're walking to the church or you know, probably going
in what you're going to disagree with about this person. This idea of just
like shouting people down is just well, I that's a very good point.
I think that we don't have discussions, and I often think around race,
for example, the idea is always we need to have a discussion. Okay,
Well then let's have the discussion, but we don't because it's either too
hard, too ugly. But but that it seems like the world has moved
away. And I don't know if that's a social media in terms of calm
exchange of ideas. You know, it's really interesting to talk race because I
am from the South, and I went to bust integrated schools and and then
I'm not saying there was there was abundant racism in the South and that sadly
hasn't changed in some quarters. But what's what's interesting is I found more of
a willingness. And actually I mean and this has happened with me moving north
because a lot of like through families and friends, they were at the beginners,
typically all black women who lost their children and and a lot of them
had come up from the Great Migration. They were older than I maybe by
twenty years, and had moved from the South. And I don't know,
I don't know what. I don't know if it's the Southern thing or what.
But I always found it much easier to discuss race. Then it seems
to be having moved to the northeast. If that makes sense, right,
Yeah, no, it does. It makes perfect sense because yeah, well
I think a lot of the times the North was always like, wasn't us
Well, no, I think that's it. Yeah, really too. I
know that sounds maybe simplistic and dumb, but I always think that wasn't our
fault. And yet at the same time, well, it's a great trauma
on a race of people that I think will take five hundred years to figure
out. Oh if that, if we know, if we can stop from
finding new ways, do you continue to continue that? But I was only
using racist terms of the idea of having the discussion, whether it be politics
or anything. We don't know, we really we really don't. I mean,
and it's wasn't it was it? Uh? Who was the Speaker of
the House under Reagan? Yeah, it's a big Irish but you know,
you had two people on the other sides that seemed to have some kind of
discourse that has has left. And I would think also, terms like fake
journalism, fake news have got to hurt Oh the very thing you do.
Yeah, no, it does. And it's just you know, it's such
nonsense. Most of the time. I mean, there is truly bad news
and fake news and tilted news, but most of the people I know in
the profession work really hard to get it right, you know. I mean
we come in with our biases and all, and and for me that probably
dictates more of what I opt to cover than actually what the story is when
I've completed it or as I'm reporting it. But most people I know really
really try hard to get it right. Yeah, I believe that. I
mean having spent some time at a news station. You know, I did
the news in the morning on an AM station. I didn't I didn't write
it. I just read it, but I watched the guy who put it
together really try very hard to make sure it was correct exactly and not rush
to judgment. Not that. And I think sometimes now it's it's a foot
race, right, I think who's going to get it first? But just
because you had it first, Like I always think that that it was a
ridiculous idea of for example, in radio and some big artists was coming to
town. Oh we got to get the exclusive, we got to get the
exclusive. Well, nobody gives you shit if you had the exclusive. Just
do the better interview, do the better conversation. So true, to stop
this idea just because that person has them, doesn't. Yes, people may
go, Yeah, they're gonna go listen. When they come to yours,
they're gonna come listen exactly if they're fans of the person, that's why you're
having them in do the Better interview. Stop with this, you know it's
so it's and after man. I I'm because it is part of the profession
where it's like, oh I got the school, yeah I got it first
and yes, but but you're right at the end of the day, especially
with social media, where you know you put it online as somebody else is
going to repeat it twenty seconds later, so who's going to know. But
it is one of the things I learned through the years. If I if
I get beaten on a story that's in my Bailey Wick and I feel,
oh, man, I'm I'm gonna go out and beat the heck out of
it the second day and do it far. But it's my goal. Whether
it's acceedar's not another story. But I'm gonna try to make sure that if
it's a story, I think the only person you're competing with is you.
It is true, I mean, and I know that it's it's hard not
to write. I mean, you watch I love documentaries and things I was
a big fan of the Last Dance with about the Chicago Bulls. I think
I've watched that gary maybe three or four times. My youngest daughter and I
and she that was they She came home during Both daughters came home during COVID
actual because they can work remote, and that was our Sunday night view,
and she and I would watch the Last Dance, Yes so, and in
that Jordan would make things up in his head about people who did him wrong.
Exactly. It's a very human thing, but the only person he's really
competing against is himself. Nobody can really do anything to you. And the
crazy thing with Jordan and I'm from North Carolina. I'm a huge Carolina basketball
fan, have been since I was eight. He gives his Hall of Fame
speech and it's still like that. He's still beating people up in his Hall
of Fame speech, which in a way I went, Okay, at least
you're tried and true right through. Exactly, this is the character. There
is no there's no soft soaping, there's no faith, there's no fake that
how fake? The high school coach that decided I wasn't ready for the varsity,
Yeah yeah, come on, how concerned, are you when when we
talk about things with AI and deep fakes in terms of news, very concerned.
I'm very concerned. I mean, I'm concerned about our company using it,
you know AI. I mean, I think we've seen their their denying.
I think we've seen instances with Connette falling back on just some you know,
some AI scripted you know, sports stuff or something. OK, it's
just I mean, and it's all well, I guess there's different ways.
There's the deep fake stuff with political ads and things like that, which really
yeah, anything I see on Twitter now, even if something like oh I
agree with that one hundred percent, I check it twenty times down before I
would ever put it back out again. And the AI sort of constructed journalism.
What bothers me is I think, you know it's going to be something
and maybe you know, this team played that team. It's going to get
the fact straight, et cetera, et cetera. But you're you're losing.
You know, we're our great styal, we got great Bills reporters st before,
I'm our high school reporters. They bring something different to their writing.
It's not going to show up in that. I agree with you now I
have used chat GPT, I haven't how I'm curious yet, flowery, I
would say in terms of writing some things now, I would do it for
more ideas, starters and things. I talked to a New York Times reporter
who said that they used it, but used it maybe for a better way
to turn a phrase or an idea starter, which I thought, Yeah,
I kind of like it for that, but anything beyond that. I agree
with you. There's something about there's something about you that you bring to your
writing that people enjoy. Yes, I mean this doesn't happen phrase, it's
really I mean, if you're talking about using it for uses like that,
it's really nothing different than using nothing stars exactly. I should have used that
word in say yes right, yeah, I mean has your job gotten easier
or harder with technology? Both? By mean you know, the ability to
look up court documents and documents without having to constantly, though I'd still like
going to the court just because it's more fun. The problem is that the
workplace, the demands that are on you because you know, they want your
social media output. You know, yes, some people want me to do
Instagram. I don't do Instagram personally. I mean I should I probably should.
I, well, I do it because my Facebook goes to Instagram automatically.
OK. But you know, and it's this constant sort of we should
be doing this, we should be doing that. And we have a significantly
smaller staff than when I started. And you know, so now you're writing
your headlines. You're worried about making your headline something that will be attractive to
Google, so you'll get the better algorithms and you'll move up. And it's
just the you know, the ability to sit down and like, I'm just
going to spend the next three hours just writing a damn story. It seems
like there's constantly because the technology something pully to me, Yeah, some other
little thing right now? You know now because like you know, now,
can you can you write your your headline for your story? We're not going
to use it, but can you write your headline for your story before you
started the story, because you know, we have an editor so and so
and other places in the country that might want to use it so they can
see it. It's just this constant sort of swirl of technology just you know,
and we're always changing how we're using it seems like every week, and
it's just this constant just leave me alone and let me write my story.
Yeah, really happens. It's funny because you know, spending thirty years in
or plus in radio, and you saw technological changes. And when I was
last on radio, I was doing eighty stations around the country. I was
doing the morning stuff, midday stuff, afternoon and then you know your day.
Just you're right, it was more and more and more because there's less
and less and less. So they put you up. But I always thought,
and I would curious if you were like this as well, that I
rented space for them and hung out my shingle. It was my shop.
I'd much did the chagrin of some of my Yeah. Yeah, And I
feel like that's the only way I'll use the term win. Is the only
way you win, because you know, all this idea of hey, Gary,
we need some social media posts over here, and how about the headline
because they needed in Wichita, and you know all this other stuff becomes like,
well, you've got to be your own independent person more or less.
And I would even think for you, Gary, I think it would be
fascinating if you could get someone to just like if you could almost hire a
young kid to just follow you and just document your day. That's a social
media dream. You know. It's funny you say that I tell young reporters
to do something that I really wish I had done, because I admittedly,
I mean, I was looking at stories today. I remember and do you
remember Long Island Alita Amy Fishery? Oh? Yeah, so I have a
crazy story with her, you do, which I completely forgot until I was
going through old news. Wait, I gotta hear this. So I mean
a lot of but the thing is, I've forgotten so damn any of them.
Yeah, And I tell young reporters started journal, it's you know,
there's you're going to have your articles. But the articles are one fifth of
what I has time for the journal. Now that's the problem. That's the
problem. It is, it really is. It's unfortunate that sometimes I wish
we could take a step back and not be trying to rush so much because
there is so much rich to death. That's a great idea, and I
wish I had because I mean, I you know the great you know,
late comedian Dick Gregory of the African American comedian. I was I was going
through there's newspapers, dot com and online where you can go back through old
DNC and hundreds of other papers. I interviewed Dick Gregory. I had no
recollection of that. I know it was by phone, but I just came
across the story where I interviewed Dick Gregory was to speak. I have no
recollection of that whatsoever. Okay, So Dick Gregory is somebody. Let's say,
I'm fifty two. I don't know that I ever really saw it sixty
four and so I never saw him, but I i he was you know,
I'm a huge comedy fan. Yeah, so he was a legend,
and he was more political. And I would say I often think today that
the philosophers of the world are the comedians. I think there's something some not
everybody, but I believe you become a comedian in my mind because you want
to say whatever you want to say whatever you want, and you don't want
anybody to tell you you can't, right. I mean, you know,
whether it's the politics of Dick Gregory or I mean, I don't know.
If you listen to Nate BARGATSI, yes, I mean it's just slice of
life. Yes, it is Slice Life. He's great and he's a Southern
guy. I just love the guy. I stumbled on him like a year
ago. He's hilarious, hilarious, But I was thinking of like Chappelle to
me, to me, you know, Chappelle isn't here if we don't have
a Dick Gregory. Oh yes it is. It's the natural lineans. And
I always feel like Dick Gregory was brilliant, like in an overused term,
I think brilliant, and we say that too often about people, but he
really is or was. And I think that there are guys like Lenny Bruce
who get more attention than that Dick Gregory. And I don't know if that's
because somebody's got more melawtnin than the other person. I don't know. It
could it could be because we don't want to hear the uppity black guy telling
us all the things that are wrong. In sort of the connective tissue between
Gregory and Chappelle is how amazing Prior was. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Prior was as well. And I always loved the Eddie Murphy story where Cosby
had called him up and said, you never heard of this, all right,
so Eddie Murphy, you know, Edie, Eddie explodes on the scene
and when I look back at Eddie Murphy's career and he's on Saturday Night Live
at nineteen years old. I guess it is because I sit here at my
age now and I go, do you realize how poised you have to be?
I was. I could never have pulled that off. I would have
been two weeks I had over animated. No one would want to watch that.
He was fantastic, I mean just in himself. But when he did
his stand up and I loved Delirious as a child because it was so dirty
but so funny. And I think Bill took his kids to see it,
and he said he gets a call from Cosby and he does the Cosby impression,
saying basically, you know, why do he got to use those words
and things and and and Bill prior to everything we knew. I always think
I have a big theory of over compensation, you know, like if I
see Ellen dancing a lot on her show, I go, bet she doesn't
do that in real life exactly, you know. But Bill Cosby was America's
dad. He was telling people, who's telling African Americans pull up your pants?
Speak of right? All this stuff and really rubbed some people the wrong
way. But he had called Eddie Murphy and said, you know, you
need to clean it up. And then he said, Richard Pryor, and
again I'm paraphrasing, you could find it. He goes, Richard Prior calls
and goes, damn fuck Bill Cosby Man, you do it, Yeah,
something to that effect. And it was. It was funny. And you
know, I'm big Richard Pryor fan as well. You know, I always
think that Live on the Sunset Strip may be the best live comedy that you
could watch. If you go back and watch it, it's just it's good.
It's so good, and it's so so much of him at that point.
You know, you could see a man at at a stage in life
who had lived a life that was pretty interesting, growing up in a brothel
and you know all this stuff. Can you talk about sort of your Murphy
And you know this he was doing it in the comedy clubs Chappelle. But
if you because I remember John Stewart, I think when Chappelle was getting the
Mark Twain price saying, you know he saw him at like age seventeen in
a New York City comedy club and he was already like fully formed. Yeah,
hilarious. Yeah, it's interesting how some people can just just intuitively have
it. It's it's a wonderful gift. I mean to me, humor is
a wonderful gift. Yes, I mean I even laughed Rex Ryan, who
used to be the head coach of the Buffalo Bills for years and there was
that whole foot fetish thing. He's now on ESPN, and we had a
controversy in the Kansas City game with the Kadarius Tony being on the line and
he says that's a toe too far and somebody else goes man when you turn
Rex Ryan off to feet and Rex embraced all of it, and I go,
that's I love that. When you haven't sense of humor, I love
that. Well. You talk about being in touch with people, Oftentimes I'm
in too. I come across a lot of out there people at my job,
and it used to be I mean, it's funny you talk about being
afraid and when we're at the old building, people seem if they got released
from the psych center and they had some story they want to tell, they
would come to our office. Security called me because I was the one that
would just talk to everybody and I was never afraid. I would go down
I talk to him and give me some crean occasion would be a seat.
Well that's interesting. So you mentioned foot fetish. Do you remember the guy
who got arrested for tickling feet in the libraries? I, yes, I
do. This wasn't that long ago. It's probably twelve Yeah, okay,
ten to prison for a while. Yeah, he got out. He ended
up homeless in DC. I know this, and he actually he just called
me this past weekend. Uh, and he has lots of you know,
sort of theories about what's happening in the world which are out there. But
uh, you know, I think I did a story. I didn't cover
his case. I think I did a story with an appeal of his and
he found my number and started calling me. And occasionally he had just called
me from anywhere in the country and I had not heard from him in like,
oh my goodness, several years, and this weekend or two weekends ago,
I got a call from him in DC. Let me know what's not
really Yes, that's that's really interesting. Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure you've
covered. Did you do the Shawcross stuff? I did not. I I
was that's right, serial kill When I caught you here. Yeah, when
I came here, first five years were crazy with criminal news. I mean
Shawcross had been arrested. I actually did a story for I was living in
northern Virginia. Did you work in the paper there? And I covered the
Marine Corps base and the FBI academy was there, so the profiler for the
Shawcross case was actually there and I got them, so I actually interviewed him
to have this story when I came up here, because Shawcross had been arrested.
The Shawcross story I did. I shouldn't laugh because it is when he
died. I did a number of Shawcross stories. But when he died,
he had taken very ill and it seemed as if the folks transporting him from
the prison to the medical facility took the probably the most circuitous long route you
could possibly take, which did not have to help his health, and he
died I think in the hospital later. And oddly I got tipped about that
from somebody in the system, in the correction system who was so offended.
And with prison deaths and inmate desks or something called the Commission of Correction in
New York which studies them or look said them and decides if anything went awry,
and that report sure came out and sort of blistered the corrections folks for
basically led me exacerbating his health issues to the point where it could have been
what caused his death. Really, that was an odd show because like I
was a fan of Arthur Shawcross, but uh no, but I think that
there's a humanity element to it, right, there's a humanity element to it,
even if we don't like it, you know, in the end,
it's it's a human being. Late the late judge to Lescom, I got
to know what the coverage of the Attica aftermath and him handling the Attica settlement.
Yeah, he used to, you know, and he's a Reagan appointee,
and he said, people always like, why are you treating these former
inmates? Like I said, yeah, the the constitution doesn't stop at the
prison door, No, it still applies. Yeah, I mean that's always
where when I've talked to people who were defense attorneys, there there are things,
Look, you have you want somebody who's going to defend your rights and
freedoms, because that's how our justice system is set up exactly. And we
you know, oftentimes we always say, well it isn't proven guilty anymore.
Right, it's the court of public opinion. At least, it doesn't mean
that that's the way things go. Your book seven million, about the Brinkx
robbery, which is a very interesting story that happened here in Rochester in ninety
What did you say so that story that? How long did it take you
to write the book? And is that a greater love for you than maybe
anything else you do more? I'm my grand plan now is two years if
I make it to retire and do more of that. I'm starting research on
some other stuff. I just know with the time demands of working on couldn't
really do it. It's it's like everything else that's it's not a quick easy
answer because I covered the arrests I didn't cover down in New York City,
and from the very first day, I like, wow, this is a
fascinating cast of characters. You got a priest, you got the retired cop,
you've got the Ira gorilla, and and and then they got convicted a
trial ninety four, well two of them did. Actually the cop was acquitted
and a person who's one of my best friends, Bill Klaus, was represented
the priest and he and I are still really good friends. We've run a
couple of times a week. And I then said, I was thinking,
Man, I don't really this is a great book. It's not too much
the robbery. The robbery was really not It's not Ocean's eleven. It was
pretty tracing, but the cast of characters. And I interviewed Father Pat the
priest in prison, and started working on the ninety five probably and wrote like
two chapters and put it on a shelf and forgot about it, and then
I got pulled into looking. And then you talk about talking to a family,
this is actually one that probably the closest I've ever gotten with someone.
Ronnie Gibbons, who was a guy that went missing in connection with the robbery.
He was in the original planning, got cut out, came up here
to collect some money, ends up in body parts in the Thousand Islands,
and I got to start. His mom lived in Liverpool, England, even
though when I wrote the original no story about Ronnie's disappearance, one of the
copy editors figured it was in the US and put on a Dogga county after
Liverpool. Sure right, thanks, and uh, and clearly I haven't forgotten
and and his his and I, you know, I hate these TV shows,
these cop TV shows where people say, oh, we're going to find
the killer for you. You might, you might not, who knows.
And and Ronnie's mom, you know, I looked for years trying to help
her find Ronnie and they ultimately I didn't what the police did. And talked
to her all all the time, and we and and often just not even
about the case. We just we became dear friends telephonically for years. And
I finally met her after Ronnie was found and he had a beautiful day.
She since passed two. And and so when that happened, and I was
involved in this hunt for this missing guy for really from ninety six until twenty
eleven, I think probably if I have my dates right, and all that
came in between, because I had this weird sort of enough I'm friends with
all of the cops who got involved in the later part where the lines got
a little blurred as to okay, what what is you know, because they
would share information with me, and I would share stuff that I felt I
could share, you know, and then some some that I couldn't I didn't
and and and and then you know, all this happened on my shoot,
maybe I should go back and do this try this book again. So so
I then went back and started pulled out what I had, went back,
got all you know have the clerk's office at Federal Court. Here was marvelous
to me. They got all the transcripts from the tryal had them up there
for years for me. They don't thin. They only sent him back last
year and and worked on the book. And it was It was crazy because
I got an agent who was the agent for a former colleague of mine,
Sean Lehman, who's done a lot of sports books. And we thought,
like, within a week of you put out a nonfiction proposal, I think
within a week or two, the agent Robin I had a bite like,
oh wow, this is easier. And I thought, yeah, I knew
it was going to be a mid level small publisher. I knew it wasn't
going to be Simon and Schust or something and and the and then so the
publishing firm has some questions, we get and the answers. They're supposed to
meet on a Wednesday to give the go ahead, and like on the day
before, two days before they get bought out by somebody and everybody that was
behind the book is laid off, and so that nothing happens for two more
years, like dead silence, until we finally got a publisher. But during
those years, I did you know, Justin Murphy likes the joke that this
was. This was a really smart move on my part to try to help
the company, you know, help me write the book. I did this,
and I didn't really think of it this way, but it worked.
I started this blog about the case of the crime, and I thought this
would be a year long thing, maybe forty fifty installments. It went three
years in like two hundred to three hundred installments. And because of that,
I got so much more information that I wouldn't have had if I just started
doing the research. And it just it gave me so much more information.
People were giving me stuff right and left, I mean, on all sides
of the law. It was amazing to me. And then you know,
the book came out in twenty seventeen and there was a documentary that was loosely
based on it last year. Yeah, and uh, in a perfect world
will have another life. You know, it is a dramatized movie. But
that has that hasn't happened yet that hasn't happened. Is there a talk of
that? There has been on and off. I've been target to some people,
but it's it's as I learned with Uh, you know, the documentary,
you know, those things are it's I don't cash any checks until learn
my hand. But to see your work appreciated by others in the business,
I think is I can't think of a better endorsement. Right, No,
you can't think of a better endorsement. It really was, and I still
you know, and it's like all the awards and everything, but to have
somebody say, hey, you what you wrote will make a great movie.
Here's our exactly. No, it's it's so true. It really it does
mean a lot. And you know in the book still you know, it's
I mean, I've done co written one other you know with UH about Attica
and Gwyn Miller who lost her dad at Attica. Since that, but uh
and then both they are still out there. And but you know, the
book came on TOOY seventeen and I still get people still talk to me about
it all the time. Yeah, well it was one of the biggest things
to happen. Well, that's true here, you know, it's seven million
dollars. It's pretty uh well, the crazy thing is, I mean,
I've got as much informat I still I got a box of documents I came
across the other day on the AMSA heist, which was almost eleven million from
nineteen ninety, which is a whole other great story, But I just don't
think of another heist book in me. People have approached me about it,
I'm sure. I'm sure. So over this forty two year career and seeing
the good, the bad, the art side, what have you learned about
humanity? You know, I am maybe seem like a silly question, but
it doesn't at all. No, I am still I guess I still want
to believe in the good in people. Yeah, I mean, obviously I
see a lot that isn't. But you know, but I see, you
know, we talked about law enforcement. Most people I known law enforcement out
there, you know, busting their butts to try to do the right thing
for right good people in all neighborhoods, and and so I still kind of
hold on to that, you kind and I think that helps me with the
coverage. I mean, I talk about people through the years who've gotten in
trouble. I mean I didn't cover Shawcross. I did cover some of Bruce
Bihowski, who uh killed three I think four at least and but doesn't want
to be called a serial killer. That defends him and you know, and
I know, no, you know, and I mean, I but I
got to know. I mean, it's weird because Bruce Wrot first name.
Uh, you know, to the point where when I teach a class at
ri t occasionally at in the criminal justice department about media coverage of crime.
And one year I had the class right questions for Bruce send him to him
in prison. Bruce responded and you know, answered the questions interesting. I
mean, I think it's and it's not that I see good and Bruce necessarily,
but I think I'm I'm fair in my with dealing with the people that
makes sense, But yes it does, I don't I'm not sort of there's
only a couple of big people like the joke because I what was that line
I used one time? But somebody wouldn't let me forget And it's like my
least favorite criminal or my least favorite murders. There's only a couple of people
that I've dealt with in the criminal sector that to this day, I just
I to test what they did, of course, but to the today,
I just detest them as people. You do. Yeah, it makes sense,
it does because I like we've all heard sort of the I guess I'll
label the hippie thing that we're all one and we're all this. But you
know, I kind of buy into that. I think that to your point,
I think there's some good in everybody, and maybe it's a privation of
good with others. I don't believe that there's a dark force out there with
stuff. I just think that you know, you have everybody kind of has
the same, and people are gonna hate this the same opportunities. You just
choose different as and sometimes yes, you're born into different circumstances, but ultimately
you get out of that and then you get to choose more and more and
more. Yeah. And I'm not saying, like with Bruce Pahowski, that
I ever wanted to come out of prison. No, I don't. But
at the same time I can communicate with him. Yes, on a personal
level. It's a fascinating career. This has been quite a conversation. Before
you go, though, I do want to hear the the Amy Baby Fisher
Amy Fisher's story only because I mean, look, I was I mean,
it was Long Island at that time. What year was that, eight nineties?
That had to be like ninety ninety. Well, I think she was
in prison in ninety six. Yeah, but I mean I thought the murder
happened in like the early nineties because Joey was shooting. Yeah, Joey Butterfuco,
Yeah, right, right to shooting. But oh no, it was
uh Mary Mary Joe. Wasn't it to Mary Joe Copecne? Yeah, yeah,
no, yes, so Joey Joey was the boyfriend, right, but
what was his wife's name? I can't remember. I thought her name was
Mary Joe Butfuco. Yeah, I think you're where am I coming up?
Married Compacne? That's another case. But yeah, yeah, there was the
wife who got shot by Amy. Yeah. Amy so just showed up and
you know that, a young girl in love and so so in the mid
nineties, she did she go to Attica? Oh no, she went to
Albion. She was there and that's where we well we never met, but
I met her mom so a couple of times early. So what happened in
the mid nineties, it's hard to believe. I mean, I can't imagine
this happening. I was doing a series of stories or working on some research
on the female prisons in New York and in the conditions there, and there
were a lot there were issues of you know, some issues of sexual assault
by corrections officers, and there's issues of health care that really was not geared
towards women. It really was not at all. And I was doing a
lot of research on this. It's hard to I can't even imagine it's happening
now. Prisoner's Legal Services knew I was working on this, and actually because
I communicated with them the cases and they like put word out at Albion.
You know, if you if you have any issues, you know, let
us know. We'll contact Gary. And you know, you know a lot
of people in prison claim they have issues which they don't. But there was
there was a lot of legitimate well you know, part of this was looking
at some sexual assault stuff. Well this is the same time Amy Fisher brings
a lawsuit claiming that she'd been raped by one or two corrections officers at Albion
in Orleans County. I, to be honest, was trying to keep this
away from Amy Fisher's story because I didn't because that would just overwhelm everything,
because there's a lot of other women that were having issues that you know,
we're not going to get because it was not going to make a tabloid.
Well, so what happens is Amy Fisher's mom gets wind of it and reaches
out to me that I'm doing this, and so so we start meeting and
I think I can tell us now, I don't think she would mind us,
and so we start meeting and she tells me, you know, I've
it's almost like the Bill Clinton thing. I can't remember what it was pants
or something or underwear that we smuggled out that have seamen stains on him from
one of the corrections officers. Wow, and it's like whoa, okay said,
But we're getting it tested to prove it to seamen and all. You
know, So we're getting it tested, so you can't write anying, get
or anything that's okay. And I'm still obviously I got to want the story.
There's that part of me it wants the story. But I still don't
want this whole series because at this point in time, I've interviewed a number
of women and at Albion and actually downstate too, who've had some issues,
and I really want this story to be them, and I want to be
Amy Fisher. I'll never free cat where my in laws then lived in Northern
Virginia, and we would often go down fifteen and into Northern Virginia. And
we're driving fifteen. We stopped for lunch your dinner somewhere as a weekend,
and I pick up the Daily. No, it's probably the New York Post,
and there's a story on there about love letters from Amy Fisher to a
corrections officer and which really didn't quite have anything to do, but clearly somebody's
like, okay, we're going to get Amy Fisher in trouble in prison.
And she had done it, written the letters. But I knew this was
going to take off the mother, So I've reached out to them other right
away, and she says, yeah, and we've got the DNA back in
it Seemen and she tells me this. Of course I'm on the way to
Virginia. Yeah. So I'm like calling the office and saying, hey,
you guys, sorry, you guys got to do this story. So sure
enough, we're so then, but then they give me the name of the
corrections officer who the interluded happened with. And it's the same guy that I've
already got two other women. Wow. Talking about wow, I was like,
oh, and so we do the initial story, which we don't really
name the guy at that point because I don't think I had it a point
where I could name him. I call I think another reporter ends I'm doing
the story. You know that wasn't like add a laptops, So I think,
go with me. Then, so I get to connect. We get
the story, you know, Daily News and New York Post follows it a
week later. And this is actually, this is what's talking about being proud
of. This is even though I was writing some stuff about questionable practice of
the corrections department, I had a good relationship with him because I was always
fair, to the point that when they put out the press release about this,
they said, as first reported in the Democrat and chronicles in the corrections
and so it went. Then we end up doing the story later that identifies,
you know, not only is the guy accused of this with Amy Fisher's,
but here's two other women. We've interviewed, one Albion one I think
a Taconic downstate. And and so when Amy Fisher came out, if you
find her autobiography, I'm in there, could thank or something. And when
she came out of prison, she was scheduled doing it and she did an
interview with Oprah. She did an interview with Oprah, like one day,
the week after we actually had the first interview. She called me for the
first interview, but she said, but just I've told yet, can you
wait till Oprah airs? Because I've told her that she will be first.
So like we had the interview the next day after the Oprah. It was
it was just a crazy time. Yeah, that is that is a crazy
time. Who's the most famous person in your phone? I've got a new
phone in ninety percent of my contacts didn't migrate. So technology, you know,
it's interesting. I don't you know, I I don't think mostly local.
I actually, did you know if I had my old Rolodex, which
which I really wish I hadn't gotten rid of, I did have Vonnegut in
there. I had Vonnicuts. Oh, I always was a fan of I
had Vonnegut's number in New York, Okay, and it was I did a
magazine small magazine piece on him one time. He was in Virginia where I
was working in my first newspaper, and spent much of a day and did
it like a Virginia magazine article. And he was promoting the book for his
wife, who was a photographer Chile baking out but and he did a great
He really wanted me to promote the book. And I forgot something about the
book when I was writing the story and my notes weren't clear, and I
called his agent and said, look, can you just get this answer.
It's just like one sentence, but I just want to make sure because he
really wanted to mention it. So I'm living in Farmville, Virginia, of
all places. One Saturday morning, the phone rings. It' Vonnegut and he
says, hey, I just like the agent could have gotten answered. I
just heard you had this question. Let me clear it up. And we
talked for like fifteen minutes, and he said, here's my number if you
ever want to call. And I always wish I never did. Again,
Yeah, sure, but I wish I did. Yeah. How interesting?
You know when you look at now the guys on the podcast always make fun
of me because I say the barrier to entry is gone right now you can
do anything we had. There's an independent journalist who wrote a I think a
twenty thousand word I'm going to call it an essay on the Buffalo bills and
all, and I have read some of it. It's behind the paywall.
I have no problem with that. And I think some of the stuff you
could say was fair on the leadership. But do you see some of the
things that get sensationalized. And in this story, the sensationalized part is that
coach McDermott used in referenced nine to eleven as a motivational speech in what was
it? Four years ago? Twenty seventeen to oh, twenty nineteen? And
I believe, I know that I was told that the local press knew about
it at the time. He had apologized to the players, and none of
the players spoke about it outside of that. I mean, when you're looking
at things and in the independent way it is, I mean, look,
I think Anison Cooper started out granted he had deeper pockets for most people to
go find these stories and well, I don't know if you do the Shining
Path of Peru or whatever it was, but the uh, what would be
your advice because sometimes the sensational stuff certainly gets people, and you want to
and a good headline and if it bleeds leads in that old news adage isn't
necessarily wrong. But there's something about just a good story and telling it fairly.
I think that's I think that's key. I'm and I probably making my
editors crazy because I am so yeah, because like court stories, you have
to be so nuanced with the headline, and I think to be fair to
everybody involved, and I'm constantly like, up, can't do that. That's
that's going too far. And but but I think, I mean A,
I think you've hitting both nails on the head A telling the story in a
way that's going to bring the reader in and keep the you know, we
have metrics where you know, I can look on the line and say,
oh, so many people are reading my story right now right And to me,
yeah, I mean I want to have as many as possible. But
to me, the engagement time number where I see they're staying in the story
and they're not abandoned it after four paragraph is important to me. And and
so telling the story and then I think telling it fairly, I think,
you know, I've been doing it a long time, so I don't know
if I started now and that was my approach, what I would I still
have? You know that. Thankfully, I've got a lot of people like
to read my stuff. I'm very happy about that and thank them. You
know, what I have that now, I don't know, is just something
I've developed through the ears. But and maybe it's harder to do that now.
And there's so many again we talked about so many people want their ideology
reinforced every day. Yeah, yeah, yes, what let's say when when
you said you're going to retire, maybe in two years that's the plan.
My wife's retired and I envy her right now? Yeah, sure I don't.
But you're you're never going to stop. I can see it. I
mean, you'll never It's just in there. But you're not going to have
to do the daily grind of it exactly. But when that career, that
part of the career is over, what would you want people to either say
behind your back, let's say that, say what would you want them to
say? Now? What? But maybe what they say what a pain in
the asked? Maybe change the headline all the time exactly, But what what
would you want them to say, or what do you want people to know
about Gary? That's a good question. I mean, if we're talking professionally,
and I think some of this I think spills over to yourself too professional
is it comes from our personal yes, settlers, So you can't really completely
divide the two. I mean, I would think, and I think,
you know, knock on wood. If I don't screw up the next two
years, I'm at least on a decent road. Twitter that he you know
that he he treated people fairly about my career. He reported accurately. You
know, we could if his name was on it, I could read it
and believe that I was getting I'm weird in this regard and talk to journalism
classes about this all down. There's so many people and I don't I don't
say this is wrong. A lot of my friends do this. I'm seeking
truth. I'm seeking truth. I'm seeking facts. You know, I don't
you know, I've sometimes reported things I had all the facts I had at
the time. In a year later, I wish I'd known this. You
know, it's still was accurate at the time, right, And just that
you know that that you know what what I read of Gary Craigs. I
believe was, you know, the the best most reliable version of facts.
It could be accumulated at that time and could get me as close to the
truth as possible at that time. Yeah, that's interesting and in today's world
harder and harder at times, oh very very you know. I mean we've
even yesterday we were talking about new AI apps that if you put a picture
up, they can show you what they believe the person would look like naked.
So that way is the the think of the problems that we could get
with that right, go down the line. I believe that the only conviction
was a psychiatrist because they can't do anything with fake let's call it revenge porn
or whatever for adults, but minors. So this psychiatrist, I think,
got forty years because he took pictures of patients fully clothed, put them through
this app, and then put them out as though they were Yeah, bizarre,
right, And so you know I was saying to the guys in the
podcast, I go here would be the thing of that were my child.
I would never want the kid to know because nothing happened. Yes, you
know what I'm saying, Nothing happened, And I said that was always like
a problem with me in certain relationships because well, we'll wait a second.
Something didn't No, no, nothing happened to the kid. I understand this
person's got a real problem. We need that person needs help. But nothing
happened to the kids. So let's not scare the kid because this is one
the bad apple gets the spotlight. There's more good than bad. Yeah,
exactly right, And that's always that's always the case. Yeh. Yeah.
So hopefully hopefully when I'm done, that's and hopefully between that when I'm done,
Yeah, yeah, people will read the stuff. It's yeah, well
I think that's I think that, you know, if that was the aim
for you, you've hit the mark. It's been very Uh it wasn't that.
I'm usually aimless, so I don't really know if I had an aim,
but well, I mean, if the idea was to get the facts,
I believe that that you've you've hit that well pretty well, right,
you know, And it's been uh, what a great conversation. I could
talk to you for a wonderful thank you. Yeah, this has been a
real pleasure. Please go to uh Gary craig writer dot com. You can
buy the book there. Yes, seven million. It's a great Christmas gift
for somebody. I mean, and you know, if people want to uh,
they can just write me at my work account G Craig G c R
E I G at g A an e tt dot com. And I I've
met people to sign books at Starbucks and other places if they really nice,
and we still do some signing is great. And again, let me The
prison Guard's Daughter, which I co wrote with de Quinn Miller's just I was
honored to be able to tell her story, to be able to help her
tell her story. Is that book also available through the website your website think
so? Okay, but it's definitely Amazon and Barnes and Noble definitely. Yes.
Okay, all right, Gary Craig please read his stuff in the Democratic
Chronicle as well, and it is fantastic. Thank you, Gary. It's
been a lot of fun. I appreciate it. I'm Bill Moran. We'll
see Tomorrowtail didn't know what to do. I'm TV. BTV would fire pizza
and grill in the mall at Greece Ridge. If you're going back to do
returnables, why not returnables since I can? But you know, gifts that
you think you may have to return somewhere. You got the wrong size,
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