1 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:21,199 Welcome to the KTPF Reload Show. In case you're wondering what the Reload Show 2 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:25,239 is about if you haven't heard previous shows, these are the interviews that were 3 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:28,160 conducted by a good friends of mine, Steven Sue Taggett in the days of 4 00:00:28,199 --> 00:00:32,000 the KTPF radio show. There are on radio show around for just over four 5 00:00:32,079 --> 00:00:35,679 years, broadcasting every week for over the three hours. I joined them in 6 00:00:35,719 --> 00:00:39,000 the last eighteen months of the show's run, but eventually the guys felt they've 7 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:42,719 just about had enough. It was a monumental effort to keep broadcasting every week 8 00:00:42,719 --> 00:00:46,359 for three hours. It was a wonderful show, but unfortunately they are longer 9 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,479 involved and the shows have just sort of sat in the archives. So I 10 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:53,039 thought it would be nice to bring them back to life and bringing you the 11 00:00:53,079 --> 00:00:56,560 interviews that the guy has conducted over those four years and include some of the 12 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:00,399 most interesting people within the world of the paranormal and some not so well numbers 13 00:01:00,439 --> 00:01:03,439 that have nevertheless still very interesting. We even now one or two rather unusual 14 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:07,560 shows, including a live salance and other things along those lines. Anyway, 15 00:01:07,879 --> 00:01:12,760 hopefully you enjoy tonight's show, and this is the KYTPF for reload show Enjoy. 16 00:01:14,719 --> 00:01:18,640 This program deals with themes of an adult nature and is intended for a 17 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:26,120 mature audience. You're in the right place, online, on a web and 18 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:34,480 on air all the world talk radio. You hear us, We hear you. 19 00:01:34,879 --> 00:01:38,560 Good evening, everybody, and welcome to the k TOPF community talk show. 20 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:42,359 My name is Suzanne, I'm Steve, and we are here keeping the 21 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:47,799 paranormal friendly. Now, what's on tonight? Show? Well. In August 22 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:55,000 nineteen seventy seven, single parents Peggy Hodgson called police to her rented home in 23 00:01:55,280 --> 00:02:00,040 Enfield after two of her four children claimed that furniture was moving and knocking sounds 24 00:02:00,079 --> 00:02:05,480 were heard on walls. The children, including Margaret h thirteen, Janet age 25 00:02:05,519 --> 00:02:10,400 eleven, Johnny aged ten, and Billie aged seven. Later claims included allegedly 26 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:15,560 demonic voices, loud noises, thrown rocks and toys, overturned chairs, and 27 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:23,080 levitation of the children a police officer or other. A policewoman even signed enough 28 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:25,800 for David to say that she had seen the chair move. There was more 29 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:32,159 than thirty witnesses to the strange incidents, desperate for an explanation about what could 30 00:02:32,199 --> 00:02:38,599 be taken place in their home. The family turned to the Society of Psychical 31 00:02:38,759 --> 00:02:46,240 if that's the right word research, a respective scientific body that examines cases of 32 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:54,159 alleged hauntings from any academic perspective. It sent two investigators, guide Lyon Playfair 33 00:02:54,520 --> 00:03:00,759 and Marris Grouse to examine the evidence. Reports of further incidents in the house 34 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:07,800 attracted considerable press attention, and the story was covered in British newspapers such as 35 00:03:07,879 --> 00:03:12,280 The Daily Mault and Daily Mirror until reports came to an end in nineteen seventy 36 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:16,039 nine. The Enfield Ghost is one of those cases in the paramo normal that 37 00:03:16,039 --> 00:03:21,080 has always fascinated me. But what is the truth about the case? I'm 38 00:03:21,199 --> 00:03:28,599 hoping guy talking about the Enfield case can give me a little insight into Polticast, 39 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:32,879 including some details from a new study which used some recordings from the Enfield 40 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:37,840 case. Mister Playfair, welcome to the show. It's been great having you 41 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:42,960 on. Everybody was interested in the Enfield case, and I hope you don't 42 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:46,400 mind talking to us about it. Oh, I don't think of something new 43 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:50,840 to say about it. That's the thing, isn't it. Really We've just 44 00:03:50,919 --> 00:03:55,560 been saying that. I think it's something that you know you've basically done to 45 00:03:55,599 --> 00:04:01,919 death, isn't it really? Well? Yes, and the TV serial coming 46 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:06,439 up based on it, Well, it hasn't been announced yet actually, so 47 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:11,159 I did not say too much, but it's said to be going to be 48 00:04:11,199 --> 00:04:17,160 announced this week bobum Sky. So I'm sure he'll let you know about it. 49 00:04:17,199 --> 00:04:24,360 Yeah, right, okay, hopefully everyone can hear you. Okay, 50 00:04:24,519 --> 00:04:31,319 So can you hear it? Okay? Okay, right, okay, So, 51 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,720 first of all, how did you get involved in the case, and 52 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:42,279 can you give us a basic outline of what it was about? Nothing less 53 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:46,680 than about three hours, but I'll try. Well, I got involved quite 54 00:04:46,399 --> 00:04:56,519 by accident. So I went along to the Society of Psychical Research SBR in 55 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:01,600 August of nineteen seventy seven that year, which happened to be about Pologist, 56 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:08,360 and I sat next to refer to Morris Gross, whom I hardly knew. 57 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:13,079 He was a new member, and I then he met him a couple of 58 00:05:13,079 --> 00:05:15,759 times and just sort of said hello, and he said that he'd read one 59 00:05:15,759 --> 00:05:19,480 of my books and write it. So I just said thank you. That 60 00:05:19,639 --> 00:05:27,240 was that, really, And after the end of this talk about Pologist by 61 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,040 a librarian. Actually it was it gave a very good talk about the sort 62 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:38,759 of history of the subject and made it all sound rather other academic and something 63 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:42,439 that used to happen, but obviously it didn't happen anymore. And then the 64 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:47,439 question time at the end, Morris jumped up and said he was investigating a 65 00:05:47,519 --> 00:05:54,879 case right now, and it was a kind of horrified gasp, and he 66 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:59,240 said he'd like some help. And since I was sitting right in front of 67 00:05:59,319 --> 00:06:03,480 him, I couldn't scale, I said, rather sort of off handedly, 68 00:06:03,879 --> 00:06:08,360 just let me know to get desperate. So I didn't really want to. 69 00:06:08,399 --> 00:06:12,639 I had alsoorso other things to do, and I was also hoping to go 70 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:16,480 on holiday, which I hadn't done for several at these two years because I've 71 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:20,519 been writing a very wrong book which had just come out. And I missed 72 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:27,839 you for a Blue Arrest. And then what happened was on That was on 73 00:06:27,959 --> 00:06:34,560 Thursday. And on Sunday lunchtime, I was listening to the BBC's World of 74 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:46,000 One and who should pop up at Morris broadcasting from Enfield together together with a 75 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:49,920 BBC reporter Russell and Morris, who did a superb job, stayed up all 76 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:57,000 night and then went straight into the studio and did a very very concise piece 77 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:01,240 on the whole case and literally took off from there. And so I realized 78 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:03,839 that this was a case that I just had to go and look at, 79 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:11,079 and went along on the Monday and stayed there fourteen months. Fourteen months. 80 00:07:11,519 --> 00:07:15,720 God, in the beginning, what kind of phenomena did you personally experience that 81 00:07:15,879 --> 00:07:20,560 convinced you something was definitely happening. Well, as soon as I got through 82 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:27,040 the door, it was the atmosphere. They were scared stiff. I mean, 83 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:30,759 they were completely confused and didn't they want the lead to do. And 84 00:07:30,879 --> 00:07:35,000 it already appealed to the police and the social services and the church and the 85 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:42,199 welfare and everything else, and finally, in desparation, they phoned the Daily 86 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:46,560 Mirror because that was their paper and they weren't out for any money. They 87 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,000 didn't ask for any and they never got any, but they they wanted help 88 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:56,600 from somebody, and out of luck would have it, The Daily Mirror's chief 89 00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:01,439 reporter was George Fallows. It was a very decent fellow and very concerned for 90 00:08:01,519 --> 00:08:05,920 the welfare of the family. And he told he said he'd call the SBR. 91 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:09,959 That's how we got involved, was entirely thanks to the Deadly Mirror, 92 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:16,160 and they deserve all credit for doing a very, very worthy act, which 93 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:20,800 today they wouldn't do that sort of thing now. I mean, journalism in 94 00:08:20,839 --> 00:08:26,680 the seventies was a lot more consider it and ethical than it is now. 95 00:08:26,319 --> 00:08:33,200 So we were lucky and we were treated pretty well fairly by the press on 96 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:39,240 the whole. We didn't didn't have any really really bad times. So that's 97 00:08:39,279 --> 00:08:43,399 how it all began. And did I say, what convinced me was the 98 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:48,320 fact that the family were all absolutely terrified. You know, they would sleep 99 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:54,200 with a light on all night, which you don't normally do, and quite 100 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:58,039 often they wouldn't even go into a room on their own during the day. 101 00:08:58,759 --> 00:09:01,039 And I heard one of the girls say to the other, you know, 102 00:09:01,279 --> 00:09:05,679 will you come in come in there with me. They didn't want to be 103 00:09:05,879 --> 00:09:09,360 on their own at all. I mean, they really were absolutely terrified. 104 00:09:09,399 --> 00:09:13,799 And why the hell would anybody fate that? Yeah? Yeah, So for 105 00:09:13,919 --> 00:09:20,840 you, what was the scariest thing that happened? Oh? Well, quite 106 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:22,519 a choice. For me, it's hard to say. I don't think there 107 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:26,720 was any one any any worse than the other, just so many of them. 108 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:31,799 The I suppose The most impressive was really when people outside the house were 109 00:09:33,399 --> 00:09:39,840 involved in the lollipop. Lady across the road saw Janet floating up and down 110 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:43,919 through the window and she must have been at least three feets in the air 111 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:48,600 to be visible from the street level. And then of course this large cushion 112 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:54,480 appeared on the roof in full view of the baker still hasn't got over it 113 00:09:54,639 --> 00:10:00,320 even today. He just won't talk about it. Well today. Tried to 114 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:05,320 get hold of him back two years ago, and he just wouldn't discuss it. 115 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:07,679 It's kind the hell out of him. You know. He's walking along 116 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:13,440 the pavement directly towards the house, and nobody was opening windows or in the 117 00:10:13,519 --> 00:10:20,120 garden or anywhere near it. And suddenly this very large sofa cushion appears on 118 00:10:20,159 --> 00:10:22,159 the roof, just from one frame to the next, as it were, 119 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:26,360 And that was done improbably well. All kinds of people saw that, but 120 00:10:26,639 --> 00:10:31,519 he was the only one who was prepared to talk about it. Luckily we 121 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:39,159 grabbed him pretty soon after the event before he'd cammed up, which which he 122 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:48,080 now has. So it was things like that that we're pretty unusual and better 123 00:10:48,279 --> 00:10:54,519 witness than you normally get it because this was in a fairly busy residential street 124 00:10:54,960 --> 00:11:01,120 and there was lots of people. The house was right on the street front, 125 00:11:01,159 --> 00:11:05,480 and it wasn't nice of eated at all. It was semi detached. 126 00:11:05,519 --> 00:11:09,120 They had next door neighbors who were well aware of what was going on, 127 00:11:09,159 --> 00:11:13,639 and they could hear quite a lot of it, so it was it was 128 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:18,039 well witnessed right from day one. Right now, why do you think Janet 129 00:11:18,159 --> 00:11:22,519 was more affected that more than her sister, because I believe she was the 130 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:28,120 focus of the activity. Well, they both were, Janet more so certainly, 131 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:33,039 yes, that that we simply don't know. I mean, the Poltic 132 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:39,720 guys do appear to attach themselves to one single individual, which is very often 133 00:11:39,759 --> 00:11:48,159 the teenage girl or boy. They can be both and sometimes much older. 134 00:11:48,159 --> 00:11:52,200 I mean, we've had Morris and I did a case where were the only 135 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:58,919 occupants were a young couple in their thirties, no children at all, just 136 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:05,559 the husband and wife and boy bund dog. So you don't have to have 137 00:12:05,639 --> 00:12:09,240 children, but it doesn't need to help, and it seems to be something 138 00:12:09,279 --> 00:12:15,240 to do with available energy. I don't know that she needs to certainly have 139 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,039 more of that than most of us. Yeah, but the whole thing is 140 00:12:18,039 --> 00:12:22,039 of a total industry. We really don't know anything about publications at all, 141 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:26,000 and I don't try to pretend that I do. All I can tell you 142 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:31,159 is how they behave This is it now. We've got a couple of questions 143 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:37,320 in the chat room, and the Damon and the viscounts similar questions. Actually, 144 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:43,279 what do you think when people claim that it was all fake? Other 145 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:46,320 than the why would anyone want to fake it back in those days? But 146 00:12:46,399 --> 00:12:50,000 the viscount says, many people say that the daughter was faking it, example, 147 00:12:50,399 --> 00:12:56,799 whistling and barking noises coming from Janet's general direction. Well, I don't 148 00:12:56,799 --> 00:13:01,240 sorry, that wouldn't do, because we actually had a professional speech sorapist up 149 00:13:01,279 --> 00:13:07,559 there and she heard this voice and said she never heard anything like it. 150 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:13,480 And we also got a professor of phonetics from London University and lenders at Larringo 151 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:18,440 graph which you camp under the neck and you'll record signals from the larynx, 152 00:13:20,759 --> 00:13:24,960 and this established beyond any doubt that the voice was not made by the normal 153 00:13:26,039 --> 00:13:31,080 vocal cords. Now you can't do that, and it's what they use for 154 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:35,480 the sort of proudly voices and radio commercials. Yeah, you know, talking 155 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:39,000 about horror films and that kind of thing. But you can't keep that up 156 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:43,120 for very long without getting one hell of a sore throat. And Janet could 157 00:13:43,159 --> 00:13:48,000 keep it up for literally for hours, So that excuse shortly, it won't 158 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,559 do. They've got to do better than that. There was a researcher, 159 00:13:50,639 --> 00:13:56,600 Anita Gregory. She claimed that the uncles told her that he thought Janet had 160 00:13:56,639 --> 00:14:01,919 taught herself to talk in a deep voice and love to treat strangers. Yes, 161 00:14:01,039 --> 00:14:05,240 and Lisa Gregory went there, I think twice. I went there about 162 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:09,519 one hundred and twenty five times. I think I'm in a better position to 163 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,799 judge what went on there than she was. And she seemed to be determined 164 00:14:13,799 --> 00:14:16,720 to demank the thing before she even got there. So you get used to 165 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:20,480 that sort of thing. It goes with a job, and it doesn't really 166 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:26,559 bother me. She was in a very small minority of nitpickers. And I 167 00:14:26,559 --> 00:14:31,120 certainly don't believe that the uncle. He was very supportive of Janet all the 168 00:14:31,159 --> 00:14:35,000 way through, and I don't think he would have accused her of anything. 169 00:14:37,039 --> 00:14:41,279 He certainly would have told me if he caught her cheesy anyway, So I'm 170 00:14:41,399 --> 00:14:45,799 sorry, I reject the testamenty completely. Did they ever play any pranks? 171 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:48,720 Yes, they did, and we knew that, and he knew, we 172 00:14:48,799 --> 00:14:52,080 knew, we all knew, and I didn't make a big dealer of it 173 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:54,960 at all because it's their house. They can do what they like. It's 174 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,399 not my job as an investigator told children how to behave in their own home, 175 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:01,919 is it? No? This is it. And also for children to 176 00:15:03,039 --> 00:15:05,960 any tape what they see going on around them, that's how they've learne I 177 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:09,279 mean, that's the basis of all education. And it's very very common on 178 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:15,039 politicized cases that once they've been going for a few weeks or longer, that 179 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:20,399 the children think this is a sort of new game or whatever and they join 180 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:24,320 in. There's also evidence that I've seen where they can do kind of unconscious 181 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:28,799 cheating, where something seems to get into them and they do things without knowing 182 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:33,399 why. You know, I've had one very clear case of that. So 183 00:15:33,639 --> 00:15:37,039 this is not quite as simple as the so called skeptics to pretend. Do 184 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:41,519 you think it's possible that they're thinking about what they did? Fake is making 185 00:15:41,519 --> 00:15:45,919 them doubt what actually happened. Do you think that could be the possibility. 186 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:48,279 Well, what they did fake was so easy to discover. I mean, 187 00:15:48,559 --> 00:15:54,320 one lovely example, which I never forget, was when I got back from 188 00:15:54,639 --> 00:15:58,559 the pub where I've been having my evening meal and found my tape recorder was 189 00:15:58,679 --> 00:16:03,360 missing. And the girls said, oh, yeah, the ghost stolen something. 190 00:16:03,399 --> 00:16:10,080 So I had to look around and I found it immediately cupboard, and 191 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,440 they took on to turn it off. It was still recording, so they 192 00:16:12,559 --> 00:16:18,039 recorded the evidence themselves. You know, let's put it in the cupboard and 193 00:16:18,039 --> 00:16:22,120 tell him the culture I is told. And they really weren't very good at 194 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:25,759 it. And then after a while I just sort of said, please, 195 00:16:25,799 --> 00:16:29,480 don't play around and might take recording because they were quite expensive in those days. 196 00:16:30,159 --> 00:16:34,480 And we never referred to it again. I mean, it was normal 197 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:40,240 kind of twelve year old behavior. It's nice to know that with all the 198 00:16:40,279 --> 00:16:42,559 fear that they were going through, they could still act like children, if 199 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:47,120 you understand I'm saying, Well, we almost encouraged them in some ways. 200 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:53,639 I mean, we tried to defuse the situation right from the start and get 201 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:59,799 rid of this sort of idea of demonic possession or terror or something. I 202 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:03,480 just look this is just a sort of It's like a dose of the measle 203 00:17:03,559 --> 00:17:07,440 It will pass. It's a disease, and it's not your fault. It 204 00:17:07,519 --> 00:17:10,079 just happened. It will go away. And eventually, of course he did, 205 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:14,720 but it took much longer than normal. There was an instant with marbles, 206 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:19,240 I believe. Could you say where the children were when this happened. 207 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:23,480 I believe they fell from the ceiling or something, and always lego or something. 208 00:17:25,079 --> 00:17:30,640 We had lego all over the place, and the unfortunate Daily Mirror photographer 209 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,799 got whacked on the forehead very hard by piece of lego while he was actually 210 00:17:33,799 --> 00:17:38,359 taking a photo. So I mean, who threw it, you know, 211 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:42,119 but nobody's throwing it. In the photo you could see exactly where all the 212 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:48,000 children's hands were. And also you can't throw a piece of lego hard enough 213 00:17:48,039 --> 00:17:52,480 to make a large bruise on the poor fellow's for it. And I saw 214 00:17:52,559 --> 00:17:57,319 that day after it happened. It was a great, big red blob in 215 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:02,000 the middle of his forehead, quite nasty. And then if he had gone 216 00:18:02,039 --> 00:18:03,839 into his eye it would have been the end of that one. Can we 217 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:11,359 ask them on a technical side what equipment was used during the case, oh 218 00:18:11,519 --> 00:18:22,440 lots of it. The mirror photographer had all kinds of super computer driven flash 219 00:18:22,519 --> 00:18:26,839 which would four times a minute there, four times a second, and could 220 00:18:26,839 --> 00:18:32,839 take a sort of sequences of moving film which we've got several of those where 221 00:18:32,839 --> 00:18:38,759 you get i think it's six actually still still photos taken their intervals of about 222 00:18:41,839 --> 00:18:45,960 I'm sure exactly, but it's it's about about a second or less, so 223 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:49,599 you get you get a little brief moving clip, which is very very important. 224 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:56,279 We've got quite a few of those which are very good evidence of things 225 00:18:56,319 --> 00:19:03,000 moving without anybody anywhere near them, several of those. And Maurice Gross had 226 00:19:03,039 --> 00:19:11,440 a very large reel to reel tape recorder. BBC reporter had a er which 227 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:15,400 is absolutely the top of the range the when they used for outside broadcast, 228 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:22,920 perfect wonderful quality and very reliable. Of course, the first thing it did 229 00:19:23,039 --> 00:19:32,119 was was was not work. It jammed the tapes completely solid into the machine 230 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:37,559 and the technician BBC had to take it apart. He said he'd never seen 231 00:19:37,559 --> 00:19:41,759 that before, and then he hadn't put it out on a polticized case before. 232 00:19:41,839 --> 00:19:53,359 So that's what happens. Talking about the equipment and stuff, David and 233 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:59,880 Dave Lloyd would like to know that. Could I ask you why what you've 234 00:20:00,079 --> 00:20:07,440 feel about the new technology technology being used on investigations today, such as spirit 235 00:20:07,599 --> 00:20:14,119 boxes, imited cameras and full spectrum cameras well a thermal imaging is interesting. 236 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:18,519 You should say that because it's just been done by an Australian colleague of mind, 237 00:20:18,599 --> 00:20:26,039 Paul Cropper, who is rapidly becoming one of the most diligent politicist chasers 238 00:20:26,039 --> 00:20:30,759 in the world. He's been several other countries in search of them and he's 239 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:37,400 just written a whole book called Australian Politiceist, which is quite an eye opener. 240 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:41,480 The case has been never heard of from Australia. On the last on 241 00:20:41,559 --> 00:20:48,960 the case from the nineteen nineties in a little place with the denightful name of 242 00:20:48,039 --> 00:20:56,880 Humpty Dew in the Northern Territories, the local TV people came in and they 243 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:00,759 did bring a thermal imaging camera and they were the film stones that have just 244 00:21:00,799 --> 00:21:07,519 been strown and find that there were no fingerprints on them because they fingerprints show 245 00:21:07,599 --> 00:21:14,480 up very very very clearly on thermal imaging. And also the stones were uniformly 246 00:21:14,519 --> 00:21:18,599 hot all over, which can only be done by deliberately heating them, and 247 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:25,440 even in very hot Australian climate, this was you know, they weren't just 248 00:21:25,599 --> 00:21:30,200 warm, they were hot, and he filmed them repeatedly until the stone cooled 249 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:34,839 down and you could see the whole process from start to finish. I mean 250 00:21:34,839 --> 00:21:41,039 that's very precise evidence. So that's been done, yes, and then that 251 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,920 certainly will be done again, at least in Australia, where they seem to 252 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:49,160 be having a more more interest in these things than here. If you could, 253 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:52,599 would you go back with them or you know, would you have used 254 00:21:52,599 --> 00:22:00,960 today's technology if it was now? Well, I wouldn't do a case like 255 00:22:00,039 --> 00:22:03,839 that again, I mean one is enough and they are. I was just 256 00:22:03,839 --> 00:22:08,119 thinking that if it was today the case, would you use today's technology like 257 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:14,680 spirit boxes and stuff like that. I don't. I don't not think not 258 00:22:14,799 --> 00:22:18,559 really no. I mean we we we get a lot of reports in the 259 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:25,960 spr We have a special committee for members of the public who send in accounts 260 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,039 of all the things that happened to them, and we try to investigate as 261 00:22:29,039 --> 00:22:33,119 many as we can, and we have we have done. Colleagues of mine 262 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:41,519 have investigated other poltigeous with various bits and pieces and things. But I've always 263 00:22:41,599 --> 00:22:47,440 rather felt the GIRLD fashioned reporting with a tape recorder and a notebook is all 264 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:55,839 you need. Nothing ever, seems to be conclusive. I mean you can 265 00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:00,839 prove or something as you can. I mean, like we we managed to 266 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:06,079 get the wrapping thumping oops oh sorry, and most traps went off. I 267 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:14,759 wasn't apologist. I didn't like it. Where was I? Yeah, we 268 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:21,359 we recorded a lot of these knocking rapping sounds on the infield, and I 269 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:26,400 thought at the time it might be interesting to analyze them on a spectrum oscilloscope, 270 00:23:27,039 --> 00:23:32,960 which which shows the what they call the acoustic signature. And we couldn't 271 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:34,440 do that at the time. We didn't know anybody who had the equipment. 272 00:23:34,519 --> 00:23:41,920 And luckily one of our members, Barry Colvin, who has all the gear. 273 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:47,720 He's got his own laboratory and he did analyze about twelve recordings from different 274 00:23:47,759 --> 00:23:52,079 cases, including three or four of mine from from Brazil where it used to 275 00:23:52,079 --> 00:23:59,680 be, and he found in every single case the pologize raps do not look 276 00:23:59,799 --> 00:24:02,680 like normal ones at all. In fact, you cannot fake them with a 277 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:10,039 very elaborate methods which the average twelve hold go would not have, and so 278 00:24:10,079 --> 00:24:14,200 that's more evidence. We do manage to get some proper evidence on these things. 279 00:24:14,279 --> 00:24:17,440 We don't just sort of fool around, you know, to try and 280 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:22,400 contribute to the sum of scientific knowledge about these things, and we have. 281 00:24:23,839 --> 00:24:32,720 And the apart from anything else, this technique is very useful with distinguishing genuine 282 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:37,599 raps from fake ones, because if somebody is faking one, who will catch 283 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:42,359 them easily? Straight off? Yeah? Yeah, When Janet admitted to faking 284 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:51,200 phenomena, this is from Damon is to say, what if you and Morris 285 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:55,759 could tell what went through your mind and what did you think what made her 286 00:24:55,839 --> 00:24:57,880 fake it? I I didn't think about it. I mean, look, 287 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:02,880 for the sake, this was children behaving in their own house, and I 288 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:07,720 don't expect them to sort of sit neatly in rows reading their Bibles. I 289 00:25:07,759 --> 00:25:12,079 mean there were a couple of very lively then kids in the in their their 290 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:17,240 own house, and we were visitors guests. I didn't tell them what to 291 00:25:17,279 --> 00:25:19,960 do. I mean, that's that's not I didn't worry about it. I 292 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,519 mean they didn't do it very often, and they weren't very good at it, 293 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:30,039 so we did. We just didn't make a big deed that did you 294 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,680 any time think that they were at risk to their lives? No, certainly 295 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,359 not. No, you didn't think that anyone was going to you know, 296 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:45,319 poltergeist wasn't going to hurt them. Well, Janet did have some very severe 297 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:52,119 what looked like Chancey's. They were, they were a bit a bit concerning, 298 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:53,920 I mean, because again, nobody would do anything about it. The 299 00:25:56,799 --> 00:26:00,400 mother took her to the local doctor and he just gave her a pill and 300 00:26:00,519 --> 00:26:07,720 centered away. And they called in the child welfare psychiatrist who thought the whole 301 00:26:07,759 --> 00:26:11,720 thing was a complete joke, and he just went away without doing anything at 302 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:18,279 all. I think he should have been struck off for negligence and they couldn't 303 00:26:18,279 --> 00:26:22,799 get anybody to give him any help at all. We were there one night 304 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,799 when when she was coming a very violent it looked more like an epidemtic fit. 305 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:32,039 I mean, there may be a distant connection between the two. And 306 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:37,920 the emergency night doctor came along, gave a ten cec of value which we 307 00:26:38,039 --> 00:26:44,079 actually saw a take, and two hours later she was flung out of bed, 308 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:49,079 sound asleep. Again, how do you fake that? She should have 309 00:26:49,079 --> 00:26:55,480 been absolutely knocked out after that nose And yet and she won't. In fact, 310 00:26:55,519 --> 00:26:57,960 she did. She was still asleep when we found her across the room, 311 00:26:59,599 --> 00:27:03,599 something absolutely out of it. So that was a bit harry. But 312 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:10,279 then, luckily, as luck would have it, for whatever, a couple 313 00:27:10,279 --> 00:27:14,559 of friends of mine from Brazil turned up and they did a sort of spiritus 314 00:27:15,039 --> 00:27:21,640 routine and completely cured it straight off, and that never happened again. It 315 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:26,680 was approved. It was proved at time that Janet had the ability to bend 316 00:27:26,759 --> 00:27:32,000 metal without touching them. Yes she did. And that was also recording on 317 00:27:32,039 --> 00:27:37,039 a strain gauge, which you can't faith without what you can, but not 318 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:42,680 easily. And it was supervised but by a student from Burgbank College who knows 319 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:48,839 how to operate these things. Yeah she did. I mean we did that 320 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:56,480 the suggestion of Matthew Manning, who came along to sort of encourage the family 321 00:27:56,519 --> 00:28:02,599 and tell them that these things do get better, and he thought it was 322 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:04,799 a good way of drawing off the energy as it worked. That's what he 323 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:10,240 did when he had a very severe politicised attack when he was at school, 324 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:17,759 and he decided to do automatic writing and drawing as a way of, as 325 00:28:17,799 --> 00:28:22,119 he saw it, sort of diverting the energy and It certainly worked him, 326 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:26,440 and he stopped. He stopped bending spoons, and he kept on doing paintings 327 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,960 and so and then he became a helo, very good one. He cured 328 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:37,480 me a very unpleasant problem. So you don't think a metal bending was down 329 00:28:37,519 --> 00:28:41,400 to telekinesis, then well you can call it what you like. I mean, 330 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:47,759 the fact is that she did actually bended teaspoon which was wired up to 331 00:28:47,799 --> 00:28:53,920 a strange gauge. And I can remember one day when we just found a 332 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:59,799 bent spoon on the kitchen table, which everybody firmly denied having bent, and 333 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:07,000 there was no reason why they should. And also found that the girls were 334 00:29:07,039 --> 00:29:10,839 extremely truthful. They never added to their stories at all. We would frequently 335 00:29:11,839 --> 00:29:18,200 question them again about something we asked them about several weeks previously, and they 336 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:22,640 didn't change their stories. Ever. They were a very sort of matter of 337 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:27,240 fact and they stuck to what they'd observed and didn't make things up. Didn't 338 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:33,680 have to. One question that's come up in the chat room is were you 339 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:41,559 contacted at all regarding the BBC's ghost Watch episode that came on that. Yes, 340 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,920 I was typical sort of steaky way of doing it, and they wanted 341 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:49,799 They told me they were doing a drama, fictional drama about positic hoists, 342 00:29:49,799 --> 00:29:56,480 and they wanted technical advice as to how they worked. So as soon as 343 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,279 I read the script, I realized that it was a complete rip off of 344 00:29:59,359 --> 00:30:03,279 them. Yeah book, so I sue them and approach. We needn't go 345 00:30:03,359 --> 00:30:07,039 into that now, but I won. I had a very nice holiday on 346 00:30:07,079 --> 00:30:11,680 the proceeds. So you finally got your holiday. I did, and I 347 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:18,759 went to Denmark in a lovely time. And well, I mean, I 348 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,319 don't really want to go into the details, to be honest with you. 349 00:30:21,599 --> 00:30:25,039 I've heard so much about it, and I only really saw it last year, 350 00:30:25,799 --> 00:30:30,359 and I didn't think much of it. But that's by the bye. 351 00:30:30,759 --> 00:30:36,119 Damon Liz would like to know, Sorry, I was looking at something else. 352 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:41,359 Damon lis would like to know what got you interested in the paranormal crum? 353 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,640 Well, I'm not really interested in the paranormal. I don't like the 354 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:52,920 word. So what what would you like to call it? Research? Or 355 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:56,839 scientific research? Well, I'm interested in anything that I can write about. 356 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:03,559 I've written all sorts of stuff about subjects that are entirely unrelated to Poltigeist, 357 00:31:04,519 --> 00:31:12,000 and more recently haven't been in that sort of area at all. I've been 358 00:31:12,039 --> 00:31:18,319 a member of the Society for Psychical Research for forty years and written quite a 359 00:31:18,359 --> 00:31:22,000 lot of stuff from them about all kinds of things. Are really interested in 360 00:31:22,039 --> 00:31:26,440 anything that hasn't been explained, Yes, I think you could call it, 361 00:31:26,599 --> 00:31:33,319 Well, the word I prefer is anomaly anomalies. Is that why you joined 362 00:31:33,319 --> 00:31:41,880 the society? I think I joined it when I was living in Brazil and 363 00:31:41,039 --> 00:31:45,720 working with a local group there. We were chasing after politgeist where they had 364 00:31:45,759 --> 00:31:52,160 plenty of them going on, and I met some of these mysterious psychic surgeons 365 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:57,319 and the rip people open with their bare hands, and some interesting mediums, 366 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:07,119 including Sika Chevier, extraordinary man who's written, who wrote about four hundred and 367 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:14,839 fifty books in automatic writing. And Brazil where it was all happening in the 368 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:19,599 seventies it was. It was quite exciting stuff. So when I came back 369 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:27,200 to England nineteen seventy five, I thought i'd joined the SBR and keep up 370 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:32,799 to date with developments over here, which I have and still am. Another 371 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:38,720 question in the chat room is what do you think of mediums? Well, 372 00:32:38,799 --> 00:32:43,599 I mean you say, what do I think of people? They're all different. 373 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:50,759 Some of them I would say were understandingly good, and some of them 374 00:32:50,759 --> 00:32:53,400 were completely useless. I haven't had much luck with them. I have met 375 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:59,720 one of two very good ones. The best I suppose was that they both 376 00:32:59,839 --> 00:33:06,359 had was quite well known in spiritualist circles, and she certainly wasn't extremely accurate 377 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,839 to tairvoyants. I mean, she could see things that she wasn't supposed to 378 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:15,079 be able to see. And she seemed to have some ability for precognition as 379 00:33:15,119 --> 00:33:24,720 well, and she was fascinating and has a very good reputation for absolute honesty 380 00:33:24,759 --> 00:33:35,319 and integrity. And once I actually gave us sitting to Winston Churchill, which 381 00:33:35,359 --> 00:33:39,160 she wouldn't give me any details about, but I think that's generally established as 382 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:47,680 she did that. And Matthew Manning is another medium I found very impressive. 383 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:57,160 He became a healer and cured me of a slip disc problem which I tried 384 00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:02,279 about fifteen different therapies for which in fact he surely did in one go. 385 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:08,320 I mean that was quite extraordinary, witnessed by orthopedic surgeons who said they just 386 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:13,519 can't explain this. This is normally takes at least two years and for the 387 00:34:13,599 --> 00:34:17,840 ulner nerve to regrow and mine took about half an hour, so they are 388 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:24,800 and that was me, so I know it happened, Yes, And well, 389 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:29,400 I suppose that Urigether can be considered as a medium. I certainly was 390 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:34,599 impressed by him, and we're still very good friends after twenty five years. 391 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:39,320 And I can't think of any others offhand, but there have been, well, 392 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:46,159 some of the Brazilian ones I met were very good, and on the 393 00:34:46,199 --> 00:34:52,119 whole I tender rather steer tear of them because they very often don't need to 394 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,800 lead anywhere. I mean, they come up with all kinds of wonderful remarks 395 00:34:54,800 --> 00:35:00,119 which you can't very high and yeah, I don't really need them. I 396 00:35:00,159 --> 00:35:06,960 mean I just put that rather low down my scale of priorities. Right, 397 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,480 So they don't use them at the society, then we'll use them at all. 398 00:35:09,599 --> 00:35:16,639 I mean people have members have been along to check them out for themselves, 399 00:35:17,639 --> 00:35:28,000 and sometimes they they witnessed things they find interesting and sometimes they don't. 400 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:34,440 So on the whole, it's not really an area the majority of SBR members 401 00:35:34,639 --> 00:35:43,079 concentrate to head on. There are so many others which are rather more amenable 402 00:35:43,119 --> 00:35:50,559 to investigation. Going back to the m Field case. Dave Lloyd would like 403 00:35:50,639 --> 00:35:55,039 to know where it went. Sorry, what was the overall conclusion of the 404 00:35:55,079 --> 00:36:05,480 case in the end or the explanation both? Really? What did you think 405 00:36:05,519 --> 00:36:08,880 of the end? Well, at the end was a colossal anti climax, 406 00:36:09,639 --> 00:36:15,880 because you know, if this was the film, do you expect sort of 407 00:36:16,159 --> 00:36:20,840 dramatic exhaucisms and beams and yells and so on. That we had none of 408 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:27,199 that, and all we had was this rather chassy turned Dutch medium who turned 409 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:31,119 up a Dutch friend of mine and journalists from Membster down and said he knew 410 00:36:31,159 --> 00:36:36,880 a man who said he could stop it. So he said would I liked 411 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,000 him to bring him over? And I said yes, we do want to 412 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:44,400 stop it please. So he brought him over and he stopped it. I 413 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:49,719 mean, that's it. Really. He didn't apparently do anything much. He 414 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,039 took the girls up the road and bought them an ice cream. Is nice, 415 00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:58,480 and then he came back and he sat on his own in their bedroom 416 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:04,239 alone. Well, they were waiting downstairs, and then he came downstairs and 417 00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:07,199 he just said, well, I think it's gone. And this may have 418 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:14,320 been a brilliant piece of suggestion. It was sort of hypnotic suggestion. But 419 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:16,280 whatever it was, it worked, and from from that day on we had 420 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:23,679 only one very brief outburst a couple of months later, which was only a 421 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:29,679 couple of days and not very serious, and then after that nothing, So 422 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:35,039 it really is sort of fade out or rather than climax. Did I mean 423 00:37:35,119 --> 00:37:40,920 somewhere there's a new study going on about it? What about infield? Or 424 00:37:42,159 --> 00:37:47,960 yes? Was there a new study going to be taken on it? Uh, 425 00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:53,599 not that I can think of it. They there was another study of 426 00:37:53,880 --> 00:38:00,000 actually of us, I mean we were investigating gross and they had a special 427 00:38:00,039 --> 00:38:10,800 committee THEESPR called Epic Infield Politicized Investigation Committee, which was headed by lawyer Mary 428 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:16,679 Rose Barrington, who is still with us, thankfully, and they questioned as 429 00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:21,199 many of the witnesses as he could, rather as if they had been in 430 00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:23,440 court, I mean, I mean, rather more gentive. But they questioned 431 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:30,000 all the family and chief investigators, and they concluded that the case was genuine. 432 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:36,199 So that was useful. It was something to do with using some of 433 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:42,400 the recordings from the case apparently, so that's probably what you're talking about. 434 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,119 Well, we still got all the recordings, about two hundred hours of it, 435 00:38:49,119 --> 00:38:53,880 and they are in the process of being transcribed well, in factly they 436 00:38:53,920 --> 00:39:01,159 have been transcribed for five hundred pages of a four single spaced quite a lot, 437 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:07,199 and they will eventually, I hope, find their way onto a disc 438 00:39:07,119 --> 00:39:09,960 so that people can come and listen to them. They can't yet, but 439 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:16,320 they will. It's a massive job and quite expensive that we are getting there. 440 00:39:17,559 --> 00:39:23,559 A couple of more questions on a different line of subject. People want 441 00:39:23,559 --> 00:39:28,599 to know what you what you think of the programs that are on TV, 442 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,519 like The Ghost of Ventures, Haunted collector Most Haunted. What's the best TV 443 00:39:31,639 --> 00:39:36,840 programs show that you've seen? Or do you not watch? The easy question. 444 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,280 They don't have a TV set, right, that's the answer to that 445 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:45,320 one. Okay, occasionally look at stuff on the on the iPlayer. I'm 446 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:49,400 not in the least interested in these sort of funny programs of work goes. 447 00:39:49,519 --> 00:39:53,000 No, I've never seen any of them, right, Okay. One thing 448 00:39:53,000 --> 00:40:00,719 I'd like to ask is what have you learned about the Polterkaist phenomena after all 449 00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:07,519 these years? Who That's a very tough one, really, I mean, 450 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:15,119 I've learned how they how they behave and roughly what to expect, but as 451 00:40:15,159 --> 00:40:20,480 to the actual explanation of why they happened and why they're so rare, because 452 00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:27,159 they are extremely rare, you know, they it's impossible to say a percentage 453 00:40:27,159 --> 00:40:30,280 of people who suffer that it's well under a fraction of one percent. I 454 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:36,119 mean, it's the farm will actually to be struck by lightning and they have 455 00:40:36,119 --> 00:40:40,840 a pologist in your house. Yeah, it's It doesn't seem to make any 456 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:44,079 sense to me why it should be so rare. I mean, if it 457 00:40:44,159 --> 00:40:46,920 happened at all, it should happen quite often. But everything else seems to 458 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:55,079 happen quite often and well, quite regularly, and under certain conditions that we 459 00:40:55,079 --> 00:40:59,400 we we can't we really can't say what the conditions are. I mean, 460 00:40:59,599 --> 00:41:07,679 they most cases in world literature, they tend to go for the unfortunate, 461 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:13,719 poorer classes rather than the rich ones. Although we are actually checking out a 462 00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:20,360 report right now that there was something that sounds very much like a Poltigeuist in 463 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:28,280 the former residence no less than Margaret Thatcher in Belgradeia somewhere what's it called Chester 464 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:32,679 Square and it was still working on now, and there could be quite fun. 465 00:41:36,039 --> 00:41:40,559 It didn't last very long, and it was apparently only reported one particular 466 00:41:40,599 --> 00:41:45,920 incident, but it was a very odd one. Yeah, and again I 467 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:50,000 think I'd like to wait until we a little bit more. We are trying 468 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:54,079 to track down the original security guard who was there, who is apparently wilting 469 00:41:54,199 --> 00:41:59,880 to talk, but we can't. He had found him, so that should 470 00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:05,280 be quite quite funny. Is the m phil ghost Sorry, the m phil 471 00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:10,280 poltergeist case? Was that the first recorded one in England or anywhere or well, 472 00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:16,400 nothing like They've been recorded since the eighth century. The earliest one has 473 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:23,000 been probably written up was the German town of Bingen. A certain lady I 474 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:31,280 can't remember her name in Bingen who've got Polta ghosted and some local probably the 475 00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:37,840 local priest or somebody anyway, it wrote a quite detailed account of the case. 476 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:42,639 They had him around for more than a thousand years. Yeah, I 477 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:47,119 mean they the church has always taken an interest because they always assumed to be 478 00:42:47,159 --> 00:42:52,880 the work of the devil. Thanks to Martin Lucer, I think Roseburton quite 479 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:57,480 quite often, he's one of the first to use the word pro the ghost. 480 00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:04,079 He didn't coin h as it sometimes suggested. It was definitely in use 481 00:43:04,119 --> 00:43:09,039 in German in fifteenth century, and Luther, of course wrote early in the 482 00:43:09,079 --> 00:43:14,840 sixteenth and he referred to Poltageist as if he assume everybody would know who they 483 00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:19,599 were, and also that they were the work of the devil. So that 484 00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:23,440 was the explanation and stuck for ages, and it still is. I mean, 485 00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:30,360 we get reports from all over the world in the spr and a lot 486 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:37,800 of them from Africa, where they've got all sorts of beliefs in spirits of 487 00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:44,800 various kinds, and they ascribe it to that. And it's different in every 488 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:52,199 culture. They've all got their own traditional belief system, and yet the phenomena 489 00:43:52,199 --> 00:43:59,199 are always the same. It's extraordinary how similar they all are. Was it 490 00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:02,880 that with the event? Was it the only one that you was involved in 491 00:44:04,159 --> 00:44:10,519 that made the newspapers. No, I've been involved in several. There was 492 00:44:10,559 --> 00:44:15,199 another very very good one which we did, tried to do at the same 493 00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:22,079 time in Croydon in a pub which has changed its name now as the one 494 00:44:22,079 --> 00:44:27,880 in the main shopping mountain. The center used to be called the King's Sellers. 495 00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:34,199 He's now called Goody's Wine Bath. And that that was a fascinating case. 496 00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:40,119 It was written up very well by Colin Wilson, who sadly died recently, 497 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:46,480 and he went there and did a very very good job. He turned 498 00:44:46,519 --> 00:44:51,719 out to be assumed a good investigator and wrote it up that I wrote a 499 00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:57,519 old chapter about it in his book on politic Aristan recommend I'll have to look 500 00:44:57,559 --> 00:45:01,760 at that, David Liz, I'd like to know have you ever experienced experienced 501 00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:10,239 time displacement? No? Okay, quick, can't swer us one right. 502 00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:15,079 And over the years, obviously you've been involved in a few things. But 503 00:45:15,199 --> 00:45:21,440 on the society side of it, what other things do you actually deal with? 504 00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:24,119 I know we've had you on for the twin therapy. What other topics 505 00:45:24,119 --> 00:45:28,840 do you actually deal with? What other subjects, well, whatever comes along. 506 00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:37,000 I mean, to people a very common appeal as somebody who's heard strange 507 00:45:37,039 --> 00:45:42,840 noises or something funny has happened in the house. And very often we find 508 00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:46,599 that the cause is absolutely normal. It's usually plumbing, yes, or else 509 00:45:46,679 --> 00:45:52,960 expansion joints in houses till the frames. They can make a fantastic racket. 510 00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:57,480 I mean, I live in a very old house and in the summer you 511 00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:00,440 think was a podgosia old time. I mean the middle of the night you 512 00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:07,880 can suddenly hear tremendous got creek and thumbson, and that's that's caused by beams. 513 00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:16,639 And my Solly is noisy around here as well. So there are all 514 00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:22,199 kinds of normal, but coming coming is the main one. I comming to 515 00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:28,239 make a frightful racket every time my neighbor upstairs has a shower that there's a 516 00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:36,000 outbreak of politics in down down down here, and sort of rumbling rattling and 517 00:46:36,079 --> 00:46:40,840 something. I just don't even notice it anymore. So how are the family 518 00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:46,639 now, mister playfair Well? The mothers died a few years ago, sadly, 519 00:46:46,679 --> 00:46:53,639 and the two girls both married and living a long way from Enfield. 520 00:46:54,840 --> 00:47:00,119 And I don't want any more to do with the post at all. I'm 521 00:47:00,159 --> 00:47:07,519 still in touch with Janet, but I have agreed to not to let anybody 522 00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:13,039 have her details and where she is hold of us image, He's not available, 523 00:47:14,119 --> 00:47:23,400 and no, I'm completely oken off contact with everybody else except her. 524 00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:30,159 Yeah, I understand that David Liz would like to know during any of your 525 00:47:30,159 --> 00:47:34,199 investigations, do you have have you ever believed that you may have taken anything 526 00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:42,239 home with you? No? I think Morris Gross may not agree. I 527 00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:45,960 think he did well. I don't think he took them home. I think 528 00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:50,679 they were there already. He was a bit of a medium himself. He 529 00:47:50,679 --> 00:47:54,239 all sorts of very odd things happening, is some of which I witnessed, 530 00:47:54,480 --> 00:48:00,800 and one or two of them really were extremely peculiar. I think I've mentioned 531 00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:08,800 most of them in this in my book. But he bore up very well, 532 00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:14,719 and I don't think he was permanently affected in any way by what he 533 00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:22,800 went through. And I think maybe my experience in Brazil, where they the 534 00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:32,440 local spirits have ways of keeping himself sort of immunized against malevolent attack, seems 535 00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:39,280 to work. And now I was having a chat with my friendly local policeman 536 00:48:40,119 --> 00:48:44,840 at the time, I remember, and he'd just come back from from covering 537 00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:51,760 an extremely violent right in the picket line and he was saying he'd be scared 538 00:48:52,039 --> 00:48:55,199 to go into a haunted house. I thought, hell, I'd be terrified 539 00:48:55,239 --> 00:49:00,880 to do what he does. Couldn't find a mob of screaming the strikers throwing 540 00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:04,239 rocks at him. And he thought it was all part of the job. 541 00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:07,079 And I said, well, this is all part of mine. I mean, 542 00:49:07,119 --> 00:49:10,000 we we have our own speciality, is I couldn't do your job and 543 00:49:10,039 --> 00:49:15,280 maybe you can't do mine. So that's how society works best. I think 544 00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:17,719 if we all do our own thing as well as we can, don't try 545 00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:23,719 to do everything. Now that when we talk about poltergeist they say that it 546 00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:28,679 means noisy ghost. Is this your theory or do you think it's just normal 547 00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:34,320 spirit? Well, it's correct. Poltageist is the German word. Is it 548 00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:38,400 evil? No. Poulton simply simply is the ford meaning to make, make 549 00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:45,280 a racket, and for example, a German for a stag party as a 550 00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:49,320 poulter aband, it means an evening where you get together and have a good 551 00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:53,119 booze up and sing Solomon, make at of rackets and give gives the blank 552 00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:59,360 the good send off. That's what pultan means. And poltageist is simply that 553 00:50:00,519 --> 00:50:07,079 spirit who makes a lot of racket. And in the sixteenth century they also 554 00:50:07,199 --> 00:50:13,199 used to call them rumpelgeist charming, which means much the same and make a 555 00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:17,360 purr uisance of themselves and racket. They are really an extraordinary mystery. I 556 00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:22,199 mean, they've been around in or everywhere all over the world for centuries, 557 00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:25,159 and yet we haven't got a faint idea what they are, or we don't 558 00:50:25,199 --> 00:50:30,480 have any really reliable way of stopping them. There's a bit of first aid. 559 00:50:30,519 --> 00:50:37,480 If anybody's listening, whoever has trouble with the politicist, the immediate thing 560 00:50:37,559 --> 00:50:42,760 to do is to separate the family and send the children off to Auntie or 561 00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:46,480 grandma or somebody that. Just just break the group up, because it tends 562 00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:51,920 to be a collective group thing. You don't get politicost if you do on 563 00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:58,119 your own. I can't think of any offhand. So that's what to do 564 00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:01,440 in an emergency. But of course it's only short term. As soon as 565 00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:06,920 the family come back from Grandma, I don't all start again. But it 566 00:51:07,199 --> 00:51:15,199 gives you certain relief relief at the time. Okay, and one more question. 567 00:51:15,599 --> 00:51:21,360 What was the one investigation that you've been on that may have made you 568 00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:27,079 sit back and think what am I doing? I think that every day about 569 00:51:27,079 --> 00:51:34,679 everything. So well. I mean, when I when I decided to be 570 00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:40,599 a freelance writer, I did whatever came along. I mean, initially, 571 00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:45,400 to start with, I wrote whatever I could sell, and I used to 572 00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:53,480 do very respectable articles about economics, balance of payment, and oil exports and 573 00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:59,480 hydro electric dams. And all that sort of stuff, and then I discovered 574 00:51:59,519 --> 00:52:04,960 the weird outside of Brazilian society with all these pods gusts, which I thought 575 00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,679 were a lot more fun than hydro electric downs, and so they are. 576 00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:15,440 And I just I've written about all sorts of other things, including more recently 577 00:52:16,119 --> 00:52:21,440 twins, which I found extremely interesting. And yes, it was an interesting 578 00:52:21,519 --> 00:52:23,760 interview we had with you. Well that's going very well. Know, I 579 00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:31,679 have a PhD student at London University studying twins and apathy, which has never 580 00:52:31,679 --> 00:52:36,760 happened before anywhere. That's a complete first, and that is thanks to my 581 00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:42,079 book. I'm cats saying. That's really very gratifying. I do like to 582 00:52:42,119 --> 00:52:50,440 do things properly and get useful in evidence. And the twin research is going 583 00:52:50,519 --> 00:52:57,320 very well, and it's we're working on ways of making it repeatable, which 584 00:52:57,360 --> 00:53:01,119 is not easy, and finding out what kind of twin can do it, 585 00:53:01,159 --> 00:53:08,960 which they not all of them can, but it's becoming quite clearer conditions and 586 00:53:09,039 --> 00:53:13,280 also the personalities involved. So we have made a lot of progress in a 587 00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:19,159 short time. And that really is I find the most interesting thing I've ever 588 00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:23,599 done, and certainly planning to do more. Yeah, yeah, well done. 589 00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:29,000 That so well, i'd just like to say thank you for joining us 590 00:53:29,039 --> 00:53:35,760 again today this evening and talking to about the Enfield Ghost, Enville Poltergeist. 591 00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:39,679 Sorry, and it's been a fascinating subject. Everybody really does enjoy it, 592 00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:45,320 I must admit, because I suppose, really and truthfully it was a benchmark 593 00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:50,320 for some people, you know, to try and find out more about the 594 00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:57,840 poltergeist. Well, keep your eyes up for an announcement from Sky. I 595 00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:00,119 don't know what they're going to do with the the story. It might be 596 00:54:00,159 --> 00:54:07,679 complete rubbish that the raised raised the it's going to be called the Enfield something 597 00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:14,840 or other. Yeah. I did see your interview with a Poltergeist on YouTube 598 00:54:15,119 --> 00:54:20,039 this week which was very interesting. Oh yeah, Well, well, this 599 00:54:20,199 --> 00:54:24,199 is a dramatic serial they're doing. I think it's been three parts, what 600 00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:31,079 only sort of a successor to Borgan or The Kidding of Something. It's got 601 00:54:31,079 --> 00:54:37,559 a very classy Danish director coming over and all sorts of quite well known actors. 602 00:54:37,639 --> 00:54:43,000 But I shouldn't give any details until Sky announces, which I'm sure they're 603 00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:46,960 about to do. In fact, I'm meeting them on Tuesday where they'll tell 604 00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:52,679 me then, so you'll be hearing about it I'm sure that they will thank 605 00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:59,400 their published publicity machine into action and everybody in probably in the country will know 606 00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:02,679 about it. I should probably run away and hide, I think, but 607 00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:10,719 at least it's going to make the case to revive interest and hopefully sell more 608 00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:14,159 books, which is what I did for a living, so that'd be nice. 609 00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:15,920 Yes, definitely. Your last book that you wrote on this was back 610 00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:22,239 in April twenty eleven, I believe. Well, I had one reissued. 611 00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:28,400 The last new book was a little short one I did about Secret Chavier, 612 00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:37,519 the Brazilian medium, and I did another one about reincarnation for the Drew's Heritage 613 00:55:37,519 --> 00:55:42,079 Foundation, who commissioned it, and that went very well and did very nicely. 614 00:55:42,159 --> 00:55:50,039 And the twin book is known. It's the third edition, and hopefully 615 00:55:50,039 --> 00:55:53,599 one day there will be a new one. Do you have any messages for 616 00:55:53,639 --> 00:56:01,960 the investigators out there in the mainstream, the mainstream of what you know? 617 00:56:04,159 --> 00:56:08,760 There's so many investigating organizations out there now, do you have any messages for 618 00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:16,199 them? What would your you know, your best advice piece of advice you 619 00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:20,360 would give them. Yeah, I'd say concentrate on the facts and getting them 620 00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:23,719 properly recorded. Don't worry too much about the explanations, as nobody else that's 621 00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:29,400 got them. But what we need is better evidence, and we've now got 622 00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:35,199 all these wonderful portable cameras and mobile phones and whatever, and the evidence is 623 00:56:35,559 --> 00:56:44,880 getting better. And as the Australians demonstrated with that thermal camera, in modern 624 00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:51,199 technology you can't can be extremely useful. So just just get all the ewdents 625 00:56:51,239 --> 00:56:55,760 you can and let us know that the SBR you think it's a really good 626 00:56:55,880 --> 00:57:01,719 case that needs following up, and then write it up yourself and get a 627 00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:07,079 good published somewhere. Okay, Well, thanks very much mister Playfair. It's 628 00:57:07,119 --> 00:57:10,360 been an honor speaking to you again. Hello, welcome and I wish you 629 00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:14,880 were the best of luck in your future endeavors. Thank you. Okay, 630 00:57:15,199 --> 00:57:19,199 and if you have any other topic that comes under this genre that you may 631 00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:22,519 think would be interesting in we'd be loving to speak to you about it.