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Hey, folks, welcome back to
the Ruby Dev Summit. I am here

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with Federico Yakati. It's we've worked
together on different projects and chatted off and

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on over the last several years.
And uh yeah, I thought he'd have

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some interesting ideas around what the future
of Ruby looks like. He lives down

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in Argentina and so he interacts with
kind of a different circle sometimes than I

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do. So yeah, Federico,
what looking at where things are with Ruby?

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What is the future of Ruby?
Well, to answer your question,

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there are there are like two big
things I could think of, the things

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I see where it's going and the
things I wish you're gonna go. Uh

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huh uh. In terms of what
I see Maine on the form the rook

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Coors, I think they are focusing
a lot on performance, and I really

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like that. I like the idea
of thinking of Ruby as a language I

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can just drop in and do whatever
I want without thinking of Okay, it's

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not gonna work it's too slow,
and I really like that they are focusing

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on that right now. Mm hmm. I also see changes on the comparser

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and parsers, which I also like
the idea of being able to for example,

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ah have I don't remember the exact
name, but like a partial partser

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where if you find an error in
the in the cold, the partser can

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continue. So you have a you
can see Okay, you have an error

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here, please change it. But
you also see that the rest of the

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file is uh still working. Uh. There has been a lot of changes

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in terms of syntax, which okay, Ruby always had those kind of changes.

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There are a lot of syntax changes
that I don't really like, but

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I like that Ruby allows me to
choose uh huh, which always has been

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the Ruby, the Ruby mind right. Uh. They are moving towards removing

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the use of native libraries, which
is also great because you sometimes you get

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stuck in Okay, I'm studying I
don't know nogiy in rails and you're running

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it on a doctor on a doctor
container, and then you have to stop

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on your feet and start packaging or
debout what happened, this didn't work.

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I like the idea of basically simplifying
installation of gems, right or yeah,

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or even the main the rubic core
library. Yep. So let's let's stop

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for a minute, because I mean, you gave me a list of like

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four or five things, but let's
talk about them, right. So so

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performance, right, what are you
seeing in the way of performance? Because

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I don't know if I like directly
measure anything that I'm doing. I can

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tell you it's getting faster because I'll
run a rails app or run a script

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or something, and the numbers I'm
getting back as far as hey, this

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took you so many milliseconds or whatever, that number is definitely getting lower.

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I couldn't tell you what they did, but it's getting faster. Yeah,

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well, I couldn't tell you either. I know why it's a big thing.

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I don't really understand it yet because
I haven't gotten deeper into it.

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But I know since uh before three
was out, they they have been moving

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towards making movie three times faster.
And I think that they achieved a lot

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of that with some with some regressions
and some advances. But yeah, what

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I see in terms of performance is
what I what I said before, and

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what you said. I don't like
measuring things as well. I like it.

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I like to think of going into
a language and not having to think

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about performance. Of course, performance
in an application comes from a bunch of

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different things. I like to exclude
the language from those things, right,

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Yeah, absolutely mostly, And I
agree with you mostly because the the language

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stuff is not something that's in my
control. Whereas database optimizations or writing the

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code in a performant way, or
you know, taking advantage of some concurrency

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feature in Ruby or something like that, those are all things I can do,

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right, Yes, And so yeah, the language itself maybe not so

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much as far as wijit goes.
Yeah, I need to reach out to

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to Kashi Kokaboom and see if he
can come on and talk to us about

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that, because it's really really cool
stuff. Now. I think in Ruby

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three to two you had to set
a flag to use wyjit. But I

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think if I remember right in three
dot three, they were planning to turn

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it on. I never actually looked
to see if they did it. Yeah,

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they were planning to turn on.
By the fault. I think you

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would be able to disable it,
but I'm not sure about that. Yeah.

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But the thing is is that we've
seen in other languages too, like

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there, you know, we've seen
some JIT compilers come into JavaScript and a

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lot of that stuff. Yeah,
it's interesting because you'll you'll watch it and

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it'll turn through some stuff and then
it'll decide, Okay, I've run this

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enough times. That's usually how JITs
work, and so I'm going to compile

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it to something that you know,
I can run on the mischine faster.

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Yeah, much faster. I can
run it on the VM in native code

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and boom, you just see it
immediately take off. And so I think

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that's really cool, And yeah,
it's not. I have some friends that

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are big like go fanatics or you
know, what have you, and they,

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you know, they compile, compile
it and they're like, well,

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ours is fast from the get go. Well sure, but you know,

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there are a lot of features that
come out of Ruby that are very very

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nice that yeah, I'm willing straight
off for the the fast eventually. Yeah,

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and then you have to actually compile
it every time you run to run

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or change something. So yeah,
there's that then, well yep, absolutely

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so. Yeah, the jit's definitely
a thing. I think they've cleaned up

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some of the memory managements have to
made that a little bit faster. Are

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there any other features that you've looked
at that that make it faster that you're

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excited about or is it primarily no? To be honest, I've watched a

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couple of tender log talks. But
I don't recall any other features. Okay,

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yeah, so let's let's move on
to the partiers. Then you mentioned

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the parser. Are you talking about
the prison parser? Are you talking about

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something else? Uh? Yeah,
prison in general? Okay, again something

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I haven't looked to live into.
Uh. I watched a couple of talks

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and I got really excited about ah
about basically into how you said, Yeah,

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integrating a parsa with with my editor
and things of that sort. Yeah,

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we had Kevin Newton's scheduled to do
the summit and then he realized the

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added check with his employers, so
we are trying to get through some red

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tape, so to speak, or
line up somebody else who's worked with him

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on that. But I mean,
it's it's so interesting just what a different

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some of the stuff can make and
what the capabilities are when you have a

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parser that does more than just kind
of the fundamental stuff. Yeah, yeah,

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totally. Yeah. So what else
did you mention? I can't remember

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all of it? Syntax changes?
Oh yeah, I normally don't automatically take

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new changes to the syntax. The
latest one I've taken and really liked is

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I don't remember the exact name,
but one line method definitions okay, thost

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into clean up a bit the h
the code uh huh, and yeah,

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I really like in this uh for
this point, I really like that really

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allows you to write the code you
want. Mm hm. So yeah,

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syntaxis are always welcome. Yeah,
I don't usually like new changes. I

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think the the one I mentioned and
a harsh syntax uh are the the two

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changes I actually really enjoyed. Enjoy
it, right, I usually I don't

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used to. Sorry, I don't
usually take up new changes. But again,

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I really like the possibility to yeah, to write yeah, the key

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word you want. I use those
everywhere. Yeah. When I resisted for

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a long time, I was like, yuck, I don't like this.

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I don't like this. I don't
like this. Hey, it's telling me

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what it is. I like this. I like this. Yes, yeah,

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kind of practically exclusively now yeah,
yeah, but yeah. The thing

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that I like about in particular,
and I'm just going to chime in on

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the things you're bringing up about Ruby
in particular, and I think the thing

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that draws a lot of people in
is sort of the intuitive nature of how

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you look at things and go oh, I get what that does, or

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oh, I understand why what that
feature is, or oh I get why

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this library is set up that way. There are so many things in Ruby

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that just really lend themselves cleanly that
way, and Rails has very nicely extended

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that. And then you see it
in some of the other frameworks too,

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if you're using Hanami or things like
that. You know, yeah, it's

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it's a little bit of a mindset
shift from Rails to Hanami. But again,

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it has that that intuitive nature to
Okay, I understand why there's structure

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during things this way, and this
is very expressive way of doing it.

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And so yeah, I think Ruby
drives us to to do things like that,

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to do things in a with a
DSL or with very terse code or

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very expressive code. So, uh
yeah, Raise is the primary example of

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that because they do it almost to
a fault, but they put an active

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support, they created active support,
and that adds a whole nother layer of

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that kind of thing. Yes,
yeah, exactly, So yeah, that

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that's I think, uh Race is
a primary example. But Ruby itself,

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it's a it's a language that leads
you to to work in that kind of

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way. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, what what what? What was?

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Weren't there like for five things or
did I? Yeah? No, The

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last one I mentioned was removing the
use of native libraries. Oh yeah,

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and I took that from the change
block because I I was just reading the

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change changelog for the last Ruby version
and they are removing the dependency on on

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read line for example. Oh really? Oh yeah, yeah, they are

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doing it natively on the in the
language now with the library. So yeah,

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it's something. As I said before, many times I started working either

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on a new machine or doc doctor
container or viitual machine or whatever, and

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suddenly you have to stop because you
have to compile a native library to install

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a package, to write whatever.
And I think this last point, with

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the first one, I think they
are actually being able to do that now

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because of being able to work on
a language, a more performal language right

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now. So they are relying less
and less on external libraries. That's that's

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awesome for me. Yeah, that
makes a lot of sense, And it's

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interesting because I don't know, I
don't know that I would expect them to

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not take advantage of those, especially
if you're starting a new language. But

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yeah, once you get to a
certain point, then it's all right.

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We have to be able to do
a build target that works on Linux and

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Mac and Windows and anything else.
And yeah, I mean if you have

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fewer dependencies on some of the native
things, then you don't have to worry

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about what version it is, or
whether the machine has it, or whether

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the machine has a you know,
sometimes they have different compile targets and if

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you have the one then it works
and the other it doesn't. Then so

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just just getting rid of that,
let's see on some external factor makes a

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lot of sense. Yeah, yeah, absolutely so I stopped you. Did

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you have other things on your list? Uh? Actually for the first channel

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of information I have, it's just
that you still be in the right place

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in just a second. Yeah.
Other things I'm seeing in the in the

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really community outside the de actual language
regarding the future of Ruby, I'm seeing

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less and less applications, applications written
in Rovie. I'm not sure if that's

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correct, if my if I'm not
seeing that correctly, but I'm seeing a

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decay on greenfield projects. I'm not
worried about it. I think there's plenty

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of bowing work for everyone who wants. But that's something I actually noticed in

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the last few years. Yeah,
if you notice that, I've seen kind

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of conflicting reports to that effect.
So I've seen people say, hey,

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there's there are fewer Ruby projects out
there, and so you know, Ruby

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is dying, and like you said, I don't know that I'm really that

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worried about it, and I don't
The other thing is is that a lot

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of the reports that I see that
they're citing, they're not citing like actual

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numbers, right, They're not saying
last year we tracked two thousand, and

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this year we tracked nineteen hundred.
Usually what I'm seeing is is, you

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know, the overall landscape of new
businesses that are starting, you know,

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a larger percentage of them are using
things like Python or JavaScript as opposed to

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Ruby, and so you know,
if the pie is getting bigger, right,

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So if we have you know,
three million new businesses start, I'm

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sure that's an unrealistically high number.
Let's say three million new businesses are starting

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this year and there were two point
five million last year, and so Ruby's

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percentage is shrunk a little bit.
The overall number of applications may actually be

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growing. So I don't know,
I haven't seen good numbers that make me

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worry, and I haven't seen good
numbers that make me hyper optimistic either,

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you know, like it was back
when the heyday of rails or Ruby,

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when every startup in San Francisco was
using rails to start, And so I

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don't know, it seems like some
of the other measures of community, like

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you know, how well do video
series like Drifting Ruby or Go Rails sell

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or how much you know business or
traffic do some of the other Ruby or

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rails related things get how well do
the conferences sell out? And that those

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issues don't seem to really be an
issue. There are plenty of people that

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interested. So I don't know.
I don't know what the benchmark is or

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what the right thing is. But
yeah, I'm not seeing it declined in

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such a way that makes me think, Okay, maybe it's time to pull

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the plug on this. Yeah,
in my opinion, and this is absolutely

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my opinion. I don't think there
will be a time to pull the plug

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on Ruby, I think, or
for any language. I think languages will

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be so we still have applications written
in coobol, so right that should say

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though I think, yeah, yeah, it's harder to find professionals that will

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write cobal or that even can write
coboal. Yeah, but you know that's

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a different thing and it has more
to do, I guess with the life

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cycle of software. But I guess
the other thing speaking to where it may

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go in the future. And I'm
supposed to be interviewing you and I'm going

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to be putting out my own videos
about what I think. But for example,

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David dhh, I was calling David. I don't know why, but

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anyway, he he came out and
said that Rails eight is going to be

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a platform where they take advantage of
all the progressive web app web app and

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kind of native web features and so
and then the other thing is is he's

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hyper focused on making Rails one developer
friendly platform. Right. Sure, it'll

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continue to support enterprises like get hub
it Spotify, but you know, at

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its core it will also be something
that you or I could spin up a

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startup in you know, however long
and you know, be all over and

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so you know that that also speaks
to me in a certain way as far

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as, hey, you know,
the capabilities of the not necessarily Ruby itself

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informing this, but of Rails of
Hanami, of you know, maybe Dragon

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Ruby or ruby wa WASM. I
talked to Utah Psyto this morning about ruby

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wa wasmuh, you know, and
so that that expands into a lot more

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platforms and just all of these different
places where you may see Ruby become,

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you know, a preferred way of
doing some of this stuff. Yeah.

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Yeah, I could see this going, you know, getting picked up because

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Python kind of had a little bit
of a dip and then it kind of

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hit its sweet spot with AI and
data science, and it's got kind of

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a renaissance. And I'm wondering if
Ruby or rails or something else out there

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in the ecosystem could do the same
thing. Yeah, I think so.

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My Actually, my next point was
about rails. I really like the where

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races is kidding, h I've had
my ups and downs with liking rails.

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I liked it very much at the
beginning, then it declined at some point.

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I think rails may made things more
difficult in the era. I can

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argue with that. Yeah, yeah, web packer, you had turbo turbo

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links and things that weren't always nice. But I learned to trust in the

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vision of the change. Because yeah, now I think writing a rail's application

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from scratch, it's such easy as
when I first came into Rails. Yeah,

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I agree. And the things that
you brought up with turbo or turbo

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links in particular, and then those
were both things. Yeah, they definitely

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made it harder. What's interesting is
is that turbolinks is now turbo yes,

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in a Rails app. It's kind
of I mean, you don't really have

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to think about it, and it
doesn't cause the weird issues that you had

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to handle in Rails three and four. And then with web Packer. I

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mean, I've heard David explain that
it was kind of a necessary step forward

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in the way that assets are managed
because that's where the Internet was going,

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and it gave better capabilities than sprockets. But at this point now you have

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import maps, and import maps are
awesome. Yeah. So then you look

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at some of this other stuff like
cashing. You know, I had a

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devil of a time with cashing and
managing my reddits instances and making sure that

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everything played nice. And solid cash
makes that pretty darn easy, you know.

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And you're seeing them pulling solid q
and some of the other options and

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just making it. I mean,
there's so many good things coming out with

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Rails these days that I am pretty
pullish on it. Yeah. Yeah,

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so ah, As I said,
there's a curve in rails development where you

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have those stepping stones and then everything
gets simple again. I really like where

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I'm going with hot Wire. I
really like where they're going with Estrada,

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which I haven't played with yet,
but I really like it. No much

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else to say there, but yes, great work. Yeah. On the

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other hand, there's a growing community
around Hanami and dry Erb and that part

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of the ecosystem, which also it's
also great. I think I don't like

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the idea of Bob being rails.
I I like Rails, but I like

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the idea of being it's something and
having many many options. I played just

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a little bit with Hanami and it's
great. I've done a lot of work

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with Roller for example, for for
a web framework. Yeah, and it's

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great. Yeah, It's completely different
to anything else, and it's awesome.

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I'm talking to Jeremy haven't in a
few weeks, so yeah, yeah,

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So I like that these communities are
are emerging, right. I think for

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a long time rails was the the
entry point and the and the all for

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Ruby and and I like the idea
of this changing. Yeah, yeah,

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absolutely, And diversity is great in
that sense. I Well, I think

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the other piece of this that we
look at is, you know, Hanami,

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Like I said, they do things
a little bit differently, but in

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some ways, I mean it makes
it. You know, the way they've

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kind of split up responsibilities on say
data access, for example, it makes

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it pretty easy to reason about what's
going on, and it's not that active

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record most of the time. Is
that much harder. Sometimes it really is.

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But you look at those pieces and
you go, huh, okay,

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and maybe some of that will inform
rails or maybe something that rails innovates.

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It's just kind of makes something brain
dead simple. You know, Hanami will

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pick up and there's always room for
more people to come in here and say,

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hey, what if we did it
this way and then see some benefit

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out of it. Another example of
this is like Bridgetown coming out of Jekyl,

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Right, and so what's his name, Kevin White? Is that his

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name Jared White? I had a
coworker named Kevin White way back in the

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day. Anyway, So he's done
a whole bunch of up there, right.

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He modernized the static assets stuff and
you know, kept a lot of

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the things that were great in jackal
and I see a lot of things that

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will be kind of built off of
each other that way. Yeah, yeah,

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totally, particularly myself right now and
working on on on creating a small

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reframework for just blame grugy applications.
And it's tiny, right, it's just

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for spinning up a small application for
a kata or things like that, right,

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And there are a lot of libraries
that really really help on that regard.

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I'm using a side work for a
example, and it simplifies reloading and

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that kind of thing that which is
something that it wasn't pain a few years

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ago. Yeah. So yeah,
it's very interesting and I think that the

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language and the and the community is
what makes it simple because there's a lot

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of work on on a lot of
a lot of different aspects which allows the

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things to be almost yeah, pray
that you don't need to think about a

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lot of things, right, Yeah, there are a lot of things you

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mentioned the language, but then the
community, right, and that's that's the

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other thing that I'm I'm super excited
and kind of see going forward. So

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in October I went to rails World
a buzz sproute paid for my hotel and

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stuff, and uh, you know, that was awesome. But yeah,

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you know, just being there and
feeling the energy right and seeing people get

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excited about what's coming next in Rails, And I think some of that same

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energy is there for Ruby. I
just don't know where that gets placed because

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I don't know that I necessarily I
do. I dare say this, sorry

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people at Ruby Central, but I
don't feel like really conscious necessarily the place

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where that energy shows up anymore.
And you know, it's it's so it's

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it's interesting just to see, you
know, as as we kind of build

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forward, you know what, you
know, what what can be created in

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these spaces and yeah, what people
are excited about being able to do with

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it. Yeah. What I think
in that regard is that the energy there

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is disseminated into different things. I
think the biggest community there is dry RB

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Slash and EMI, which is yeah, the same community. But then there

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are a lot of projects that bring
excitement to Ruby. And there are individual

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projects right now that the once I
can mention side work, as I said,

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Flex Dragon Ruby, those kinds of
projects which yeah, bring excitement and

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simplicity and motivation to do stuff right
wrong the other one mm hmm. I'm

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excited about. Yeah, yep,
absolutely, yeah, But I just I

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love getting together with other rubyists and
there's just there's so much energy there.

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Yeah, it's been around for a
while. You're locky to you In the

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US, we are well, we
are less here, but there are still

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conferences here, like there's Blue Ridge
Ruby and you know Ruby Comff and rails

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Coff are usually here in the US. Rails World next year is going to

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be in Toronto, which isn't in
the US, but it's close. The

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The thing that's interesting is is that
And I think a lot of this could

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be shocked up to COVID. But
I don't see as many of the users

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groups anymore, right, I don't
see people getting together in their local communities,

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and I wish that there was something
that we could do to bring that

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back. I have some ideas of
some things I want to do, but

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it's like fifth on my ten million
things long list, and so I never

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quite get to it. That makes
sense, But yeah, i'd love to

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start seeing that come back too,
in terms of what I see in the

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Rubig community and in the Ruby language
in general. Those were my points what

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I'd like to see, which was
my other big point is a focus on

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machine learning and AI. Right,
I really like to for to compete hand

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to hand with Python and more more
sorry EGUI stuff. I really like ruing

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to be not to be thought as
a web language, but a more general

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language. Right. I've been trying
to get into breed development just for myself,

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and it's more complex at the moment
than right, Right, So yeah,

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to get into Yeah, I'm talking
to Andy Mala next week and we're

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gonna be talking about glimmers. I'm
sure it is one of the UI things,

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but yeah, it'd definitely be cool
to see it expand to more areas.

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You know, we we have Ruby
Motion, but that's mostly focused on

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games, and it'd be nice to
see it, you know, whether it's

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Ruby Motion or some other option you
know, come up. Yeah, in

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the mobile space, so that you
can build mobile business apps. You know,

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the same thing with you know,
something something kind of like what you

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get with like React native, right
where you could then go to like TV

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apps and you know, all those
areas and then yeah, you know the

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UIs on desktop and you know,
yeah, I think Ruby has a wrong

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case for CLIs, but it doesn't
always get picked and so yeah, it'd

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be great to see it pick up
some other areas and become kind of the

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way to go for some of those. Yeah, totally. I really like

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that because I love Ruby and I
I'd like to be able to just pick

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it for whatever project I need.
So yep, yeah, absolutely cool.

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So yeah, it sounds like we
got through your list. Yep. If

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people want to check out what you're
working on, now, how do they

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find you? And becausets dot com. I am working on just starting a

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spring cast series right now. There
are just six episodes and they are all

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about Ruby. The idea used to
expand bey on movie. But right uh

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that's what what's there right now?
Very cool? All right, well thanks

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for coming. We'll go ahead and
wrap it up here until next time,

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Folks max out to