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Some great guests here. I think
you guys know me and opposite Prime Minister,

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but if you guys could introduce yourselves
and say a bit about you and

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you know you've done both done amazing
things, so please let me shy.

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Sure thing. So I'm Greg Brockman. I'm the president and co founder of

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Open Aie. But we started Opening
Eye out of my apartment in twenty fifteen,

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twenty sixteen. So yeah, it's
been a really exciting time to just,

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you know, be able to help
not just move this field forward,

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but try to help steer it in
a positive direction. I think that's really

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foundational to how I think about AI. What got me excited about this field

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is the fact it's going to be
so transformative and I think it can benefit

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everyone in huge ways, but we
also really need to mitigate the downsides.

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And so I think that's something that
really resonated with me about the earlier conversation.

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I hope we'll talk about a lot
upcoming minutes. And since Greg was

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too modest to say so, I'm
going to add something to your introduction of

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yourself there, which is just a
few years ago when Greg and his colleagues

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were saying, yo, in a
few years we can act. We believe

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we can actually build AI that can
master human language and common knowledge. A

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lot of my colleagues and AI were
like, that's crazy science fiction. It's

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going to take decades, but you
did it. We literally had an intern

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in twenty six teams our very first
summer who we had this conversation about how

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to solve the touring test, and
we had all these ideas and whatever,

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and we were like, all right, three years, we'll solve the touring

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test. And that intern told me
I'm out, like I'm not joining full

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time, like you guys were crazy. And three years later we had GPT

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two, so we didn't quite solve
the Turing desk. So he was right,

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But I think that we had far
more progress than I think most people

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thought possible. So I'm Max tech
Mark, professor doing AI research at MIT,

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and I think it was fought on
what we heard earlier here from you,

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that artificial intelligence will be both a
blessing and a curse. I've very

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for a long time and very excited
about the blessing part, how we can

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use it to solve all the problems
that we haven't been smart enough to solve

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before. And go for beyond and
help life flourished for billions of years on

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Earth and beyond. And I also
I'm very concerned about the curse part.

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So nine years ago I founded this
nonprofit called the Future Life Institute. Together

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with Elon we launched the first ever
attempt to the mainstream AI safety by launching

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a worldwide grants program and educate and
do conferences and so on that you Greg

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participated also to make sure we can
steer this every more powerful technology away from

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the curse towards the blessing direction.
Well, can I say that I want

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to plug this book? He wrote
this book and I read it. It's

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a good book. It's a very
good book. Was it chat guptwo or

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I have an alibi because not even
Greg was fast enough to have it written

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by the time chat gupt ain't good
enough yet to do this. But from

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what I hear you guys saying,
it's good. Yeah, give it a

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minute. It was thirty seconds.
Well you see, Well let's talk about

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that, because you know, I
think that the kind of things that you

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ring here are I think a monumental. You know, when I see the

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talent on this stage, excluding myself, I'm reminded of what JFK. John

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Kennedy said, you know, when
he brought his Gifted team into the White

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House. He said, this is
the most gifted team ever since that's sat

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here, ever since Thomas Jefferson dined
alone. So I think you're about to

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surpass that, and you are changing
history. And I'm sure you know when

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such power comes enormous responsibility. And
I think that's the crux of what we're

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talking about here is how do we
inject a measure of responsibility and ethics into

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this, into this exponentially changing development. How do you do that? That's

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really what I'd like to know from
you. I think that this should be

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a very interesting discussion. And you
know, I think I know almost everyone

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in AI, and I think I
really can't think of anyone who's got bad

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motivations and AI. I think everyone
I know an AI has good motivations.

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They want to create technology that helps
the world. But one you can also

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say, if you think of someone
like Einstein, who was obviously a very

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sort of peace loving person, and
you know, he didn't think that there

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would be a nuclear bomb created as
a result of his discoveries in physics.

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He wasn't thinking, let me,
let's make super weapons. He was thinking,

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let's try to understand that the truth
of the universe. So it's just

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important too. I always want to
just preface, you know, any criticism

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of AI development with it not being
a criticism of the people doing it,

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but just fair in mind that just
as Einstein didn't expect his work in physics

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to lead to nuclear weapons, we
need to be cautious that even with good

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intentions, the best of intentions,
that we could create something bad, that

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that that's one of the possible outcomes, and we want to try to take

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whatever actions we can to ensure that
the future of humanity is good and that

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is much more blessing than That's definitely
why I work on it. I think

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that not for evil it turns out, But I think that balance is really

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key, and I think that one
of the things that is important is to

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really calibrate the choices with respect to
the technology, right because I think this

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technology it has this way of being
very surprising, the way that people pictured

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like you read asthmav you read kind
of all the science fiction you read Ellie

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as you're a Kowski, and kind
of all this thinking people are doing about

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very smart machines that are smarter than
humans, and somehow none of it really

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predicted GPT three, right. Somehow
the technology that we're building, it's just

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surprising. It has very different properties. And I think that even from you

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think about like chess, people used
to think chess would be we solve that,

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we solve human intelligence, and it
turns out that's the first thing to

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go. And so I think that
what we're really seeing is that we need

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to be calibrated and see not just
what the current systems are doing. And

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this is one of the reasons we
deployed chat GPT is it's just really important

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to not get in our heads and
think, oh, this is how it's

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all going to play out, this
is how people are going to misuse it.

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But you need to actually see that. You need to actually have people

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spending a lot of time thinking about
where the slots in, where it works,

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where it doesn't, but also to
really try to peer ahead. And

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so we've been putting a lot of
effort into capability prediction. One of the

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things that I think was kind of
undersung in our GPT four release is that

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we actually had very good predictions of
exactly how good GPD four would be before

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we even trained it, and that's
something we can never do with previous models.

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And I think that this and doing
that it's a sidal scale, Like

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I think that's one answer for how
do we actually get this right? Because

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if you can see around the corner, then you have an answer and an

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AI. It's always been the opposite. We've always been taken by surprise.

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Well, I want to ask you
because there are sort of layers of questions

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here. The Max's book takes you
to the existential question of whether you know

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you project basically machine intelligence or human
intelligence into the cosmos, human intelligence turned

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into machine intelligence into the cosmos and
so on. That's a big philosophical question.

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I'd like to think we have about
six years for that, okay,

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But the other questions that I'm dealing
with as a leader of a country that

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is blessed with a lot of AI
talent rated about number two and talent relative

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to population size and AI. But
I wanted to be among the top three

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because it's important to advance the country. But I think also for it raises

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questions that we raised before. But
here's another one. Okay, as chat

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GUP four or chat. GPT eight
comes into being, and you have Hollywood

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strikes already about screenwriters and directors and
actors. Okay, what do you think

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will happen to the job market?
I mean, we had this conversation,

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what do you think will happen?
I mean, you know, you can

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tell me, you can comfort me
with all previous revolutions that there were more

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jobs, many more jobs created than
lost. But you really believe that now?

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Yeah, I think it's I think
it's far from obvious. I think

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it is a correct question. And
I also think that it's important to kind

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of look at the whole picture of
for sure, their jobs are going to

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go away, what's going to be
the balance of like, you know,

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marginal job creation? And you can
tell the story of oh, it's going

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to be very comforting you look at
every previous technology. I do think AI

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is not like every previous technology,
right that this is usually we kind of

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are seeing automation of mechanical parts of
creation, and here it's almost this creative

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aspect of creation. But I think
that we want to even go one step

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further from where we've been, right
and not just okay, like you know,

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I could have been an artist and
now an AI is a competing artist,

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but you want AI that can help
us come up with ideas and solve

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problems that we just couldn't before.
And so what does that world look like?

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And you know, if your post
scarcity world but people don't have to

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work to survive, you know what
set of people? Because people I identify

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themselves, you know, your whole
identity is around your work. You identify

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yourself by your job, yes,
exactly, And so what will happen then?

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And what does that look like?
And so I don't come with an

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answer to this question of exactly what
the balance will be like. I think

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there will be fundamental changes and how
we even relate to work and to meaning

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that will happen and may result in
a landscape that just looks very different.

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That the answer to that question is, you know, if you're a hunter

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gatherer and someone's like, you know, what's going to happen to our hunter

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gatherer job post agriculture of revolution,
it's just a weird question, right,

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It's like the framework changes on you. And so that's that's not a cop

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out, right. I think that
it might be the case that actually many

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more jobs go away than get created, and there's a lot of chaos and

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turmoil, but I think we got
to be ahead of it. And the

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more that we can predict it,
the more that we can greet answers.

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And we have teams that try,
right, But I think that we're just

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getting started and we need help.
Well, it'll change our economic models.

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Okay. I'm a clear free market
guy. I liberated and I helped liberate

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the Israeli economy to make it a
sort of a technological powerhouse. But that's

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because of free markets, and free
markets means open competition. And it's fine,

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but you stop at the monopolies and
monopolies edge. Okay, well you

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do that. I had a conversation
with one of your colleagues, Peter Tail,

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and he said to me, oh, it's all scale advantages, it's

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all monopolies. I said, well, yeah, I believe that, but

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I think we have to stop it
at a certain point because we don't want

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it to press competition. Okay.
Well, Ai is producing you know these

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this wall and you have these trillion
dollar companies that are produced to one overnight,

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okay, and they concentrate enormous wealth
and power with smaller and smaller number

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of people. Okay, and the
question is what do you do about that

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monopoly power? What do you do
about competition? And if you are going

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to if you are going to cannibalize
a lot more jobs than you create,

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then we have to change the structure
of our economic policies and our political policies

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to take care of the people who
are not going to find jobs. We're

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not going to contribute added value to
the economy. We have to make sure

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that they have a living, a
decent one, and they have all the

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services. Will probably have the money
to do that, but it requires a

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challenging model, certainly for a free
market guy, a free market disciple like

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me. And that's coming very fast. It's not going to come slowly,

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and we have time to adjust.
I like how you challenge the question what's

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going to happen? I like to
continue on that thing because I think if

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we asked this very passive kind of
question, what's going to happen to us,

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let's just sit here and eat popcorn
and wait for the future to happen,

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then we're steading straight for the curse. I think this is a sort

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of very passive approach which I think
is just gonna you know, We've done

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this experiment before when a new species
showed up on the planet that was smarter

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than all the other ones, and
what happened was then the underthal automentics think,

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if we just very passively go into
this, I think it's very likely

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humans will go extinct. Also,
I think that's and I think that's the

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wrong attitude. Even in economics in
a country, you don't just sit back

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and wait to see what happens and
get child labor and the super monopoly of

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doom. No, you ask yourself
what do you want to happen, and

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then you put in place institutions,
you ban child labor, you put an

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anti trust. And in this case, I think the analogous question is how

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do we make sure that with this
ever more powerful tech, it's we who

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control the AI rather than the other
way around. Right, So I was

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honored that you had this book.
If this book still hasn't put you to

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sleep, because this is a technical
nerd paper I wrote with this one's written

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with technological approach to how we can
control machines that are even smarter than us

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by actually having other AIS formally prove
that the I is safe. And the

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reason why I'm so excited about the
proving part is, you know, the

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only way you can trust something much
smarter than you to still do what you

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want is if you can prove it, Because no one, how clever it

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is, it can never do what's
provably impossible, and it turns out it's

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super It's much harder to come up
with proofs about math or about what a

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program is going to do than it
is to check that the proof is correct.

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You can write a three hundred line
computer program which will check any proof

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claiming anything about anything else. We
can understand that if we force AI to

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prove things to ourselves, to us
humans that's going to meet our specifications,

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then we actually have a reason a
way we can control things that are smarter

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than us. How do you know? How do you know that the proof

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is not disputable? That's the beauty
of mathematics. You can actually check even

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if it's a brilliant proof, rather
than I couldn't come up with myself.

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I can just see I just plug
this into this and this, Yeah,

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you know it checks out. And
there's a big science in doing this with

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proving things about programs for cybersecurity because
companies are so fed up with losing millions

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of dollars by begetting hacked all the
time because yet another bug was found and

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or a shell or whatever. That
there's been years of investment. Greg and

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I had a fun conversation actually just
before we went on stage here about how

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this field of trying to prove that
things are safe is still in the stone

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age and there's pre large language model
phase where it's most the humans trying to

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make the proofs. I think it's
ripe for a revolution where the kind of

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technology that Open Eyes building can totally
turbocharge our ability to prove things about the

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code. And I think there's a
bigger picture too, because in my mind,

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if you think about cybersecurity, it's
always a cat and mouse game.

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You have attackers, you have defenders. Each one's leveling up defeating the other.

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Is there ever going to be a
time when the defenders totally win?

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Is there going to be a time
when the attackers totally win? And I

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think with AI that balance can change. And I think that formal verifications an

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example where maybe you can have defenders
just win once and for all. And

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I think there's a lot of asterisks
there. I think it's definitely a maybe,

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But I think that at least at
a technical level, formal verification has

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been this idea of if you could
mathematically prove these systems are safe and good

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and that you don't have bugs,
and you're linings, colonel, then all

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these bugs we've seen we were talking
about heart bleed and shell shock and all

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these these bugs from the past ten
years, those would be solved, those

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would go away. You would know
there'd be no future one of those.

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Now you need to be very careful
because you need to make sure that your

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undergoing machine model is like actually correct
in a bunch of details like that.

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But it's just interesting to think that
these fundamental things we believe about how security

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works might just be up it.
And we've never had an opportunity for this.

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That will give us a lot of
free time exactly. And it's worth

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adding for the nerds listening to this
to like the code. You know,

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normally, debugging, all that ever
does is is all it can never accomplish

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is proved that there is something wrong. If you don't find any bugs,

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is there one more? What when
you prove it? When it's what's called

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formal verification, As Greg said,
that means guaranteed you'll seal the deal.

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Seal the deal, all right.
That assumes, by the way, that

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mathematics is, you know, that's
it. It's the law of the universe.

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It's not going to change. You're
not going to get alien mathematics.

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You don't need to assume that.
Actually, well you're sort of getting the

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girls incompleteness theorem and things like that. That has comes in a big way

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when you're dealing with infinities of various
kinds. All the computers, even Gregg's

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very biggest servers, it's all finite. I would say, you still got

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to watch out for the alien mathematics. But you can totally formalize what it

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means that it's impossible to hack into
his laptop, and if you have a

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rigorous proof, I think that's heals
the deal. So I think that beyond

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these, you know, these enormous
questions that you raise, I think from

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me, the immediate problem is to
fashion a national policy, which I tend

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to announce in a few months,
and you guys are simulated me. I

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have to say this visit, but
you sort of think, Okay, what

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is it that you what is it
that you were trying to achieve. You're

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trying to better all the systems transportation, health, education, agriculture, production,

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everything for government, for the private
sector, for philanthropy, for academia

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and so on. And what is
the role of the government in this?

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And you know, various kind trees
are seeking solutions to this. What do

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you do? What kind of instruments
do you build? I think the larger

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question is you still have the monopolization
of AI power in small concentrations because of

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what you said before, Elon,
you said, basically, it's still big.

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You know, you need the big
data, you need the big you

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know, the big computational power,
you need the talent for creating the algorithms,

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and that's concentrated in a few countries. We have another test, not

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only to make sure that we take
care of ourselves, but how we have

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these benefits percolate to you know,
the rest the scientific and technological have nots.

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And I think that's that's another real
issue. But so far, you

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know the advances that we've made,
at least in Israel, I don't know

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anything from disconquy. Remember that you
used to have something like that, And

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I don't know that a drug,
the camera pill that goes into your intestine

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or any other thing that you have, from ICQ to cherry tomatoes that benefits

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everybody. Drip irogation, okay,
in Ai, it seems to me that

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you're gonna have concentration of power that
will create a bigger and bigger distance between

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the haves and the have nots.
And that's another thing that causes tremendous instability

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in our world. And I don't
know if you have an idea how you

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overcome that. Well, first of
all, I want to say just on

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the talent density front, we have
a number of Israeli engineers, scientist managers

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and they are top notch, no
question. We have a manager who runs

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one of our core teams who is
ex Special Forces and there's nothing that phases

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him. So I think there's something
about the Israeli way that I think is

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actually very conducive to this field.
And I think that it is really important

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to counteract this rich, get richer
phenomenon, at if it comes at the

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expense of everyone else. Right,
I think that there's a the world we

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should shoot for is one where all
the boats are rising, and I think

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that there will be some sort of
inequities in the landscape, and I think

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that's something to address, and that's
something that I think that leaders such as

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yourself, I think need to be
very cognizant about. You know, I

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think that we've talked about UBI like
opening actually has run. I think the

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world's most comprehensive UBI. Something people
talk about universal basic income, the idea

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of just the government just distributes money, right, that's just what it does.

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If most people are not working,
producing, you know, dollars themselves,

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and there's a world of plenty.
Is that a mechanism that can work?

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Maybe it can, maybe it can't. There's a lot of assumptions that

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would go into a world where it
works. It's clearly I think also has

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a lot of downsides to it.
But I think that we need to have

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creative solutions because again, I think
that just like defense versus offense might fundamentally

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change economic production and what it takes
to actually build even a stable society I

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think is going to fundamentally change.
Well, Ellen, you said when I

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asked you this question one of our
nighttime conversations. I asked you, well,

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what are you gonna do when people
don't have jobs and we shell out

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money for them and you said.
I think you said, oh, what's

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bad and living in paradise? Right, I think you said that, Yeah,

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I mean it's I mean this is
a question of like, you know,

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the concept of heaven. Now,
in heaven, I don't think you

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need to work in heaven. Haven't
read that anywhere, So they're not laughing,

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you know if you want so,
you know, the very positive scenario

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of AI is actually in a lot
of ways the description of heaven in that

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really nobody would need to work.
I wouldn't even quote universal basic income.

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I'd say it's probably universal high income. I'm describing the best case scenario here,

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so I'm not saying this is definitely
what occurred. There's a range of

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scenarios from very negative to very positive. Very positive scenario is basically sounds like

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heaven. You can have whatever you
want, you don't need to work,

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you have no obligations. Any illness
you have can be cured. And when

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do we die? Well, that's
a good question. I think it'll be

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a choice. I think it probably
ends up being somewhat of a choice.

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So you want this world, well, I'm not saying I don't know.

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There's some there's a sort of a
philosophical debate is the concept of heaven as

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it is normally described. Actually,
what do you want? I mean,

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do you want to be in a
future or world where you know the in

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the AI sense that a I could
do everything better than you by far?

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That's that's because you know you have, like man, search for meaning questions

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thing good work and what meaning if
you if, like I said, if

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I can do everything better than you
do, we live a life of hedonism.

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I don't know, it's hard to
say, but that is where things

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ahead. In a positive scenario is
that there would be no scarcity of goods

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and services. The robots and computers
can make as much as much of whatever

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you want, for as many people
as you want, with really no limitation.

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Any scarcity we have would be artificial, meaning like if you define that

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in particular artwork done by a human
is unique and special, then it's artificial

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scarcity. But there will be no
actual scarcity unless we define it arbitrarily,

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define something to be scarce. So
I think for a lot of people that

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is a good, good future.
I might be personally a bit frustrated because

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I'm like, well, what am
I supposed to do? Now? You'll

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think of think of something. I
think that this is a very interesting set

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of challenges. What would we do
if people have no jobs? But I

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think it's important to remember that we're
not automatically going to end up in this

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situation in the way we're thinking about
it now. We could also, I

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think, very likely end up in
a situation where people have no jobs because

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there are no people anymore, where
we literally go extinct. You know,

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if we had a statement cut that
came out in May, right that I

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think Sam Olmen and you both signed
right saying and ours left under Lyon came

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out with it a couple of days
ago saying we have to take seriously human

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extinction. And if this sounds like
very crazy science fiction, you know we

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were joking. But just a few
years ago all your success sounds like science

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fiction. Two and you said that
we don't have a lot of time.

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These are things that could happen relatively
soon. And there's how it's very important

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to me, because I want the
good future, to think about how we

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steer away from those sort of scenarios. One way in which we could end

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up and this kind of bad future
is pretty obvious. The idea that we

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can lose control to something more intelligent
is not new at all. That Alan

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Turing himself said this in the fifties. That's kind of the natural thing to

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expect. That's what always happened on
our planet before. When a news more

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speechies came in, it took control
over the older ones, and then you

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know, bye bye and Neanderthals by
by mammoths whatever. More concretely, I

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think, even though Hollywood is full
of scenarios where someone somehow loses control of

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AI and it takes over, there
are more sneaky ways in which we could

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end up in this sort of bad
state, even more willingly. So for

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example, right now, I'm a
big fan of the free market too,

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you know, But it's the fact
that if people are competing against other people,

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they will often seed control voluntarily at
the machines to get an edge on

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the other guys. So companies who
replace workers with machines out compete companies who

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don't. Armies who seed control to
machines out compete armies who don't. Once

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we have really powerful any of that, that's better at running companies and countries

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and humans, you know, than
countries that replaced their prime ministers by AI

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might outcompete others, and then we
end up in this future where all these

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things are happening, but it's not
our future anymore, and we're like,

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wait a minute, where did we
go along wrong? Here? It was

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supposed to be for us. But
that's the point, you know, forgiving

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for borrowing a page from your book, literally a page from your book,

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I'm confessing I'm a speciest Okay,
Okay, So I'm for the human species.

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Okay. We can talk about other
evolutions and you know, machine launched

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intelligence and so on, but I'm
you know, I'm for you know,

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in the Jewish tradition, there's a
saying, how do we translate this?

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The impoverished of your own city,
of your own town, proceed the impoverished

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of other towns. So the human
species, as far as I'm concerned,

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is something that I'm vitally interested in
maintaining. And I'll tell you that the

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problem we have is not merely extinction, which I hope you can, maybe

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you can extemporaries just elaborate on.
But here's something else. Even if we

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don't go extinct, how do we
define ourselves? You talked about that,

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Greg, Okay, so we defined
ourselves. We had this myth in the

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Bible, we had heaven, you
know, paradise you can just pick off

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the trees, you know, pick
off the fruit from the trees. You'd

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have to do nothing, and then
the serpent comes and messes things up,

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and then we're condemned to toil for
our labors. Life is a struggle.

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It's defined as a struggle to define
all the time, as a struggle where

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you're competing with the forces of nature, or with other human beings or with

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animals, and you constantly better your
position. This is how the human race

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has defined itself, and our self
definition is based on that, both as

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individuals, as nations, as humanity
as a whole. Now that could be

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challenged, and it is challenged.
So it's both our self definition throughout human

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history and evolution that is being challenged, and also the question of our continued

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00:24:40,319 --> 00:24:44,519
existence, which you know you can
please explain why you think we're in danger

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of extension. Well, well,
I was gonna say. I mean,

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I think this whole arc in my
mind is all about paradigm shift, right,

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And I think that even the question
of what would that heaven push agi

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positive future look like? I think
even that is hard for us to imagine

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what the true upside could be because
it's not just material abundance. It's not

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just we all get nice cars or
something hopefully I'll tell us, but also

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that everyone gets a great education,
right, you know, everyone has that

396
00:25:08,279 --> 00:25:11,480
story of that one teacher that they
had who paid attention to them and inspire

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00:25:11,519 --> 00:25:15,079
them on a specific subject. Imagine
if you had that teacher for anything you

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00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,799
wanted constantly, and just how much
better if people would we be? How

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00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,839
much better would we relate to others? Like that is just one example of

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the kinds of upsides that are possible. And I think the question of well

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00:25:26,079 --> 00:25:27,400
what does it mean to be a
human? You know, if you back

402
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to how do you predict what's going
to come next? Actually the thinker who

403
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:36,440
I think had the best foresight about
how the AI revolution was going to play

404
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:41,160
out is actually Ray Kurtzwile you know
he yeah, and his book Singularity is

405
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,039
near gets like a lot of shit. I think that people that you know,

406
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:45,440
kind of assume it is going to
be this almost like just sort of

407
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,920
religious text, but instead it's a
very dry analytical text. And he just

408
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,240
looks at the compute curves and he
says this is the fundamental unlock or of

409
00:25:52,279 --> 00:25:56,680
intelligence. Everyone thought that was crazy, and now it's basically true. It's

410
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,119
basically common wisdom. And part of
what he says is, look, what's

411
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:00,119
going to happen is in twenty thirties. First of all, he says,

412
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,640
AGI twenty twenty nine. Yeah,
I keep telling people it seems to be

413
00:26:03,599 --> 00:26:07,440
almost exactly right. It's spooky.
It's spooky. Twenty thirties is when the

414
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:11,680
merge happens. So we've got neurallink
coming, and you know, maybe other

415
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,400
systems like that, And what does
it mean once you actually are kind of

416
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,960
merging with an intelligence. Well,
neuralalink is necessarily moves slower than AI because

417
00:26:21,079 --> 00:26:22,519
when when have you put a device
in a human? You have to be

418
00:26:22,599 --> 00:26:26,480
incredibly careful. So I think it's
not clear to me that the neuralink will

419
00:26:26,519 --> 00:26:30,319
be ready before a GI. I
think AGI is probably going to happen first,

420
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,559
but you know, we'll have the
sort of AGI singularity, you know,

421
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,400
so as digital superintelligence is called like
a singularity, like a black hole,

422
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,640
because just like with a black hole, is difficult to predict what happens

423
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:45,279
after you pass the event. Arison
of black hole, and we are currently

424
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,200
so you know, circling the event
horizon of the black hole, that is

425
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:55,359
at digital superintelligence, the event horizon. So I bet part of the reason

426
00:26:55,559 --> 00:26:59,440
for neurallink, although initially we're very
helpful to people who have brain or spine

427
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,680
injuries, just doing basic stuff like
enabling people who are tetraplegics or like a

428
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:08,920
Stephen Hawking to communicate actually even faster
than I'm communicating with a fully functional body.

429
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:18,039
So and ultimately to improve the bandwidth
between the cortex and your AI version

430
00:27:18,039 --> 00:27:21,640
of yourself. In fact, I
think a lot of people perhaps don't quite

431
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,119
realize that they're already a syebalk.
So you've got your lymic system, your

432
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:29,000
sort of basic drives, your cortex, which is the thinking and planning,

433
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:30,920
and then you have tertiary layer,
which is your computers, your devices,

434
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:36,480
your phones, laptops, all the
servers that exist, the applications. And

435
00:27:36,519 --> 00:27:40,160
in fact, I think probably a
lot of people have found that if you

436
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,960
leave your cell phone, take it
away, if you get if you forget

437
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:47,240
your cell phone, it's like missing
Limb syndrome. You know, you've like

438
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:49,480
read that thing, go Losing your
cell phone is like missing Lin syndrome.

439
00:27:49,759 --> 00:27:53,559
So, because it is your cell
phone is extension extension of yourself, the

440
00:27:53,599 --> 00:27:59,279
limitation is badwidth. So you the
rate which you can input or i should

441
00:27:59,319 --> 00:28:03,240
say output in nation into your phone
or computer is very slow. So the

442
00:28:03,279 --> 00:28:07,160
phone, it's really just the speed
of your thumb movements, and with you

443
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:11,160
know, best case scenario, you're
a speed typist on a keyboard. But

444
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,880
even that data rate is very slow, which we're talking about tens, maybe

445
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:19,079
hundreds of bits per second, whereas
a computer can communicate in trillions of bits

446
00:28:19,079 --> 00:28:23,960
per second. So so the and
this is admittedly somewhat of a you know,

447
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,240
hail Mary shot or whatever lung shot, is that if you can improve

448
00:28:27,279 --> 00:28:33,640
the bad with between your cortex and
the your digital tertiary self, then you

449
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:38,240
can achieve better cohesion between what humans
want and what AI does. At least

450
00:28:38,279 --> 00:28:41,319
that's one theory. I'm not saying
this is a short thing. It's just

451
00:28:41,559 --> 00:28:45,359
one potential iron in the fire.
If ultimately, you know, one hundreds

452
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:51,200
of millions or billions people get a
high bound with interface to their digital tertiary

453
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:56,000
self, their AI self effectively,
then that that seems like that probably leads

454
00:28:56,039 --> 00:29:00,240
to a better future for humanity.
So that's this is I'm getting somewhat esoteric.

455
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,079
Hopefully some of this is making sense, and like I said, it's

456
00:29:03,079 --> 00:29:07,039
a long shot. But you know, what I find interesting is that I've

457
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:11,359
I've not found any human who wishes
to delete either their cortex or their limits

458
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,720
system. I probably I suspect nobody
in this room wants to do that.

459
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,599
It's a role or their cell phone. Well, now I've met people who

460
00:29:18,599 --> 00:29:21,680
want to who don't use a cell
phone. It's rare. Okay, Well,

461
00:29:21,759 --> 00:29:25,640
I confess for years I avoided this, and I avoided it. I

462
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:30,200
didn't even have Not only did I
not have a cell phone within my immediate

463
00:29:30,319 --> 00:29:34,039
radius, I didn't have a television
set. My phones were thirty five year

464
00:29:34,039 --> 00:29:38,599
old phones because I was Prime Minister
Visual and I knew what this means.

465
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,880
Okay, I mean maybe your audience
doesn't know, but we knew. Now,

466
00:29:44,319 --> 00:29:48,079
having spent some time in the opposition, I lapsed into the use of

467
00:29:48,079 --> 00:29:51,519
the cell phone, and I find
it very hard to dissociate from it.

468
00:29:51,559 --> 00:29:53,720
For the reasons that you said.
It's become an extension of, you know,

469
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:59,680
a repository of memory, the ability
to get information very fast, which

470
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,640
you say correctly, is very slow, but compared to what it was before.

471
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:07,039
Remember you had research assistance, have
to go to libraries, things like

472
00:30:07,079 --> 00:30:11,400
that. Where is that that's gone? But this will be seen as very

473
00:30:11,519 --> 00:30:15,119
vastly primitive compared to what you're talking
about. Yeah, I'll just add something

474
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,079
is that to max? But the
I mean, it's it's sort of a

475
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,839
funny thing like if you assume,
like a best case scenario, imagine if

476
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:25,799
if you're the AI and you're trying
to you just want the human to tell

477
00:30:25,839 --> 00:30:30,000
you what it wants, just please
spit it out. But it's speaking so

478
00:30:30,119 --> 00:30:34,000
slowly like a tree. Okay,
Like trees communicate, Okay, they if

479
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,319
you watch a tree, like a
you know, sped up a version of

480
00:30:37,319 --> 00:30:41,599
a tree growing, it's actually communicating. It's communicating with the soil. It's

481
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:45,480
trying to find the sunlight. You
know, it's reacting to other trees and

482
00:30:45,559 --> 00:30:49,319
that kind of thing very slowly.
But from a tree standpoint, it's you

483
00:30:49,319 --> 00:30:52,799
know, not that slow. So
so what I'm saying is we don't want

484
00:30:52,799 --> 00:30:56,279
to be a tree. That's that's
the idea behind a high band with the

485
00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:00,519
neural interface is just even when the
AI it desperately wants to do good,

486
00:31:00,559 --> 00:31:04,200
good things for us that we can
actually communicate several orders of attitude fast,

487
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,160
and we currently can. I love
that you mentioned the trees there, because

488
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:11,720
if anyone is still struggling to understand
why it's so likely that we could get

489
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:17,680
wiped out by AI, you know, as superintelligent AI, we are like

490
00:31:17,839 --> 00:31:22,119
trees. They are as much faster
than us, and they're thinking than we

491
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:23,680
are. The trees. So if
some trees in the rainforest are a little

492
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,960
bit worried that some humans are going
to come chop them down, you know,

493
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,640
and they're like, Oh, don't
worry, We're so smart, we'll

494
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,640
stop those humans. Good luck with
that, right. I love how you

495
00:31:33,799 --> 00:31:37,160
went philosophical here and talked about what
it means to be human, and I

496
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,400
wanted to follow up on that,
and but before that, maybe just continue

497
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:44,759
that. Okay, So, how
you're assuming that the danger of human extinction

498
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:51,880
is that you have machines, supermachines, superintelligent machines that outpass humans by orders

499
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:57,680
and orders of magnitude who will not
necessarily value the continued human existence as we

500
00:31:57,759 --> 00:32:01,440
know it, and basically program is
out. That's basically what you're saying,

501
00:32:01,599 --> 00:32:07,279
so, if we were to be
so dumb as to create the entities that

502
00:32:07,279 --> 00:32:09,200
are much more powerful than us that
don't share our goals, yeah, that's

503
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:13,359
a really bad idea. I mean, in Israel, I think you understand

504
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,400
really well that if you have a
bunch of other beings who are intelligent and

505
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:22,119
don't share your values, you know, it can go really badly, right,

506
00:32:22,359 --> 00:32:25,400
and let's not make that mistake by
giving too much power to machines don't

507
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:30,359
share our values. But of course
we can tackle that in various ways.

508
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:34,160
So coming back to what can we
concretely do, I just want to say

509
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,680
one thing about the philosophical point about
being human, just for myself. One

510
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:42,240
of the things that I really cherish
the most about being human is the agency

511
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,799
that I can actually make choices and
make a difference. And one of the

512
00:32:45,839 --> 00:32:51,519
most beautiful things about what you were
all doing with technology is giving us more

513
00:32:51,559 --> 00:32:54,359
agency. Back in the Middle Ages, we had a life expectancy of freaking

514
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:59,680
thirty years and knowing that we might
starve to death next year because of the

515
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,000
weather. There, you know what
kind of it's so much more inspiring now

516
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:06,559
that we're becoming more of the captain
of our own ship with technology able to

517
00:33:06,599 --> 00:33:08,880
actually have more agency as a species. So I say, let's use that

518
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:13,599
agency to create a wonderful future,
not to throw it away. And three

519
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,359
things I wanted to just suggest for
concrete action items we can do here.

520
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:20,039
I'll say a little more about each
of them. One has to do with

521
00:33:20,119 --> 00:33:23,839
pausing risky stuff, one has to
do with controlling the machines, and one

522
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:29,160
has to do with inspiration for the
future. So for the controlling, we

523
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,680
already talked quite a lot about the
importance of staying in control over these machines,

524
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:37,119
so I don't need to doell on
it anymore. But we are I

525
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,920
think it's saying things like, oh, what is going to happen to us

526
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:44,880
bring out the popcorn. That's too
passive for me. Let's celebrate our agency

527
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,400
and ask ourselves not what we think
will happen, but what we want to

528
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:52,559
happen. And clearly we want to
control these machines we're building them. Second

529
00:33:52,559 --> 00:33:57,240
thing, so, I, you
know, agree with Gregg on many things,

530
00:33:57,279 --> 00:34:00,960
and I greatly respect your work.
One thing where we have a friendly

531
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:04,400
disagreement is you know, I signed
this pause letter saying I think we should

532
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,079
pause the riskiest things, and you
don't. I think that it would be

533
00:34:07,119 --> 00:34:10,960
a good strategy for us to emulate
what biotech does and just have clear safety

534
00:34:12,039 --> 00:34:14,880
standards. You know, if you
want to release a new drug, you

535
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,400
can't just sell it in the supermarket. You have to do a clinical trial,

536
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:21,559
persuade some experts somehow that this is
safe. And I would like to

537
00:34:21,599 --> 00:34:24,760
see really high stakes, very powerful
systems, some sort of system like this

538
00:34:25,039 --> 00:34:29,960
with standards, and then the companies
have and it's on them to, you

539
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:31,840
know, prove that they're safe before
they get released it. Who does the

540
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:37,519
standards? Well, and we've solved
this, It's been solved in Israel.

541
00:34:37,559 --> 00:34:40,199
It's been solved in the US for
biotech, not for biotech. But here,

542
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,599
you know, it's a's a do
you want it? Regulators? Who

543
00:34:44,639 --> 00:34:46,960
do you want it? Legislatures?
I mean, it's not the only choice,

544
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:51,199
but you know, it's a pretty
pretty clear dichotomy. I don't think

545
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:53,920
we need to reinvent this wheel.
The people who decide whether a drug gets

546
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:58,800
approved in Israel is not people in
parliament in the Kinnessets, right, it's

547
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:02,199
Israeli scientists, but the government involved
in approving them. Exactly we can emulate

548
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:06,440
that, and Elon can tell us
all about how we deal with the cars.

549
00:35:06,559 --> 00:35:08,199
I don't want to dwell on,
and I just think this is not

550
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:14,480
rocket science. We can put these
standards in place and then we can continue

551
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:16,960
doing all sorts of wonderful stuff with
a tech. Some stuff will wait a

552
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:21,440
little longer for but it'll be worth
the wait because it'll be safe. The

553
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:25,000
last thing I just wanted to say
is I think for us to really seize

554
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:30,239
this agency and work together, not
just between companies but also across borders,

555
00:35:30,519 --> 00:35:36,360
we really need a shared positive vision. And this is something I really appreciate

556
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:38,800
so much about You, Elon have
the guts more than most to talk about

557
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:45,199
like really audacious positive visions for the
future. What is it that makes people

558
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:51,000
collaborate and put little squabbles aside.
It's always a shared positive vision where people

559
00:35:51,119 --> 00:35:53,599
realize that if we collaborate, we'll
all be better off. You know,

560
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:59,840
technology is not a zero some game, right. You can take countries like

561
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:05,840
Sweden and Denmark that had been killing
each other for centuries and flat GDP,

562
00:36:06,039 --> 00:36:08,920
you know, and then technology came
along and they both got dramatically better off.

563
00:36:09,039 --> 00:36:13,920
It's so obvious that the technology that
you're building. You're building you know,

564
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:19,039
can make all humans just spectacularly better
off with AI, and not just

565
00:36:19,119 --> 00:36:22,159
on this planet. I like the
list before we started you had there about

566
00:36:22,199 --> 00:36:25,360
how it can revolutionize healthcare and so
many other things. And I would add

567
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:29,440
to that, you know, why
limit ourselves to this planet when there's this

568
00:36:29,639 --> 00:36:32,360
beautiful universe where life can flourish for
billions of years. If the more we

569
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:37,559
can can just appreciate how huge the
upside is if we do this right,

570
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:43,280
you know, the more incentive we
will have to actually be a little patient

571
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:45,800
where we need to be a little
bit patient, make everything safe and therefore

572
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:52,159
get this wonderful future. Well,
maybe we're sort of lagging behind in our

573
00:36:52,519 --> 00:36:57,119
social and political development. This is
like having nuclear technology and the Stone Age,

574
00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:59,760
what do you do with it?
Which I think is you know,

575
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,039
because more That's the thing that I
talked about in terms of the pace of

576
00:37:02,079 --> 00:37:07,719
development, pacing basically what solutions we
need to put in place to maximize the

577
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:12,679
benefits and limits the risks. I
think we're there. I think we should

578
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:15,760
have a meeting of minds. You
were in you were in the Senate the

579
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:17,679
other day. I presume you were
talking about this. I mean, yeah,

580
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:22,000
you don't have to divulge what you
can divulge, but divulge would you

581
00:37:22,039 --> 00:37:23,000
can? Well, a lot of
people in the meeting, so I don't

582
00:37:23,039 --> 00:37:28,239
think it was secret. It was
just a discussion on AI regulation. And

583
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,599
actually Sam Often from open I was
there and a number of eye leaders were

584
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:36,239
were there. And I think generally
it would be a good idea to have

585
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:42,800
some kind of AI regulatory agency and
start off with a team that gathers insight

586
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:46,760
to get a maximum understanding. Then
you have some proposed rulemaking, and then

587
00:37:47,159 --> 00:37:51,440
eventually you have regulations that are put
in place. And this is something we

588
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:53,639
have for everything that is potential danger
to the public. So if it is

589
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,920
you know, if we're in drugs
in drug administration, we got aircraft with

590
00:37:58,079 --> 00:38:01,760
fa and rockets. You know,
there's ever anything that is a danger to

591
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:06,159
the public. Over time, we
have learned that often the hard way,

592
00:38:06,559 --> 00:38:10,639
after many people have died, to
have a regulatory agency to protect public safety.

593
00:38:12,079 --> 00:38:15,320
I'm not someone who thinks that regulations
some panacea where it's only good.

594
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:19,559
Of course, there are some downsides
to regulation and that things move a bit

595
00:38:19,599 --> 00:38:22,840
slower, and sometimes you get regulatory
capture and that kind of thing. But

596
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:28,440
but on balance, I think the
public would not want to get rid of

597
00:38:28,679 --> 00:38:32,079
most regulatory agencies. And you can
think of it also as like the regulatory

598
00:38:32,119 --> 00:38:36,760
agency being like a referee. You
know, what sports game doesn't have a

599
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,599
referee? You need someone to make
sure that that people are playing fairly,

600
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:45,840
not breaking the rules. And that's
why basically every sport has a referee of

601
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:50,719
one kind or another. So that's
the rationale for AI safety. And I've

602
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:52,280
been pushing this all around the world, and when I was in China a

603
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,920
few months ago meeting with some of
the senior leadership, that my primary topic

604
00:38:57,119 --> 00:39:01,719
was AI safety and regulation and they, after we had a long discussion,

605
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:07,360
agreed that this merit to AI regulation
and immediately took action in this regard.

606
00:39:07,679 --> 00:39:12,760
So so sometimes it will get this
comment of like, well, if the

607
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,280
West does AI regulation surely, then
what about what if China doesn't and then

608
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:21,519
leaves ahead. And I think they
are also taking it very seriously, because

609
00:39:21,559 --> 00:39:24,360
you know the opposite of what of
a moral constraints you program into the system?

610
00:39:24,559 --> 00:39:27,360
I mean, Greg, I don't
know what you what are your thoughts

611
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,719
on this? Yeah, I mean
I think again it's just like this technology

612
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:32,639
is almost backwards from how you'd expect
it to work. Like I think that

613
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:36,679
a lot of people talk about the
paper clips problem of if you think of

614
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,119
that as if we literally program into
a machine make as many paper clips as

615
00:39:39,159 --> 00:39:42,559
possible, and it gets really smart, and it's like, well, there's

616
00:39:42,599 --> 00:39:45,239
all these houses and factories and other
things, they're not producing paper clips.

617
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:47,840
They're all going to be just paper
clip production. Now, all these humans

618
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:51,639
that are in the way paper clip
would be a better arrangement of their atoms.

619
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,199
And that's just not the technology path
we actually seem to be on.

620
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:58,440
You look at GPT three, and
it is a system that gets the nuance,

621
00:39:58,519 --> 00:40:00,519
It gets the common sense. It
has other problems, right, it

622
00:40:00,519 --> 00:40:05,039
makes mistakes that no human ever would
like kind of loses this chain of thought

623
00:40:05,079 --> 00:40:07,280
and says all these weird things and
sometimes make things up like we have real

624
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,360
problems we have to encounter. But
I think that for me, that the

625
00:40:10,519 --> 00:40:14,960
hard thing that I think gets lost
in some of the conversations is the nuance

626
00:40:15,039 --> 00:40:19,159
right of really being coupled to what's
the technology we actually see and particularly how

627
00:40:19,199 --> 00:40:21,800
does it depart from our intuitions about
where we thought it would go. I

628
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:23,559
actually think it's even interesting. You
know, Max mentioned the pause letter.

629
00:40:23,679 --> 00:40:27,800
The pause letter, one of the
key parts of it was to not train

630
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,679
GPD five for the next six months, and we looked at that and we're

631
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:32,840
like, well, we're not training
GPT five for the next six months anyway.

632
00:40:34,079 --> 00:40:36,519
And so you know, it's just
like again if you kind of miss

633
00:40:36,639 --> 00:40:39,159
the sort of nuances of what's going
on at a mechanical level. And some

634
00:40:39,199 --> 00:40:43,679
of this does require getting like really
in the weeds and coming and talking to

635
00:40:44,039 --> 00:40:46,880
us and also opening up and showing
kind of in progress work. And I

636
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:51,679
think that's something that will be very
important as you think about moving to these

637
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:54,400
very powerful systems. And I also
think there's another blessing and curse of how

638
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:59,360
the technology is playing out, where
we talk about digital superintelligence and we also

639
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,400
talk about chat. These are very
different things, but somehow there's going to

640
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:07,079
be a smooth continuing between them.
And so I think that the blessing is

641
00:41:07,119 --> 00:41:08,599
that we see a little bit into
the future. We have a little taste

642
00:41:08,639 --> 00:41:13,480
of a system that you know,
I talked about a personalized tutor for everyone.

643
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:15,079
You kind of have it now.
It's not a perfect tutor. It's

644
00:41:15,079 --> 00:41:17,280
got a lot of problems, but
like you know, you can go use

645
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:21,440
shat GPT for free to ask about
anything and it'll give you something. Sometimes

646
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:25,199
it's actually be pretty insightful. Well
fair enough, I'll withdraw the seven and

647
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:28,599
a half, but but you'll get
there. You'll get to a ten.

648
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:30,000
We will, we will, we
will. Definitely, that's right, And

649
00:41:30,039 --> 00:41:34,400
I think it's great for people to
see it while we can still laugh about

650
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:36,599
it. Right. I think that
when it starts coming up with the new

651
00:41:36,639 --> 00:41:38,320
ideas, you type in some problem
you're having at home, trying to figure

652
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:40,320
out how to do something, and
it just comes back with, oh,

653
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,360
you should say this to this person, and you should do that, you

654
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:45,800
should you know, here's say you
should revenge your schedule. And it's just

655
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:49,719
like great ideas, Like that's gonna
feel so different. And then one day,

656
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:52,199
when we're actually having a system that
can actually just autonomously go off and

657
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:55,920
do a bunch of research and say, here's this crazy chemical formula, like

658
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:59,679
please mix them together in these ways. You want to make sure that thing

659
00:42:00,119 --> 00:42:02,400
trustworthy right before we start mixing those
chemicals. And so I think that this

660
00:42:02,519 --> 00:42:07,800
question of how do we separate out
the sort of diffusion of today's AI technology

661
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:10,760
and application and really, you know, all the debates that we're having,

662
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:15,920
let those happen, open source technologies
like everyone's building. We should not squelch

663
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:19,719
those, we should actually promote those. But I think that also looking ahead,

664
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,360
being ahead of the game here and
saying there is going to be a

665
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:24,960
point and it's where we're hitting that
wall, where we're going to be building

666
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:29,559
the most massive machines that humans have
ever built. Like Youan talks about these

667
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,760
massive rows of data centers with all
these computers, like like it's one of

668
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:36,440
those things where you kind of have
to see it to really feel it.

669
00:42:36,519 --> 00:42:38,440
Like I've walked through some of these
data center halls and you just get a

670
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:42,400
sense of the scale of what's being
built. And it's very different when it's

671
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:45,360
abstractly just like you're looking at,
oh is this many GPUs and you know,

672
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:47,840
looking at numbers, it's like you
just realize the mechanical force that is

673
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:52,519
behind what you're building for cognitive intelligence. And I think that kind of thing

674
00:42:52,519 --> 00:42:57,119
we need international answers for. I
fully agree with you. I think,

675
00:42:57,159 --> 00:43:00,639
Chris, of all you know,
with all due respect of the pause button,

676
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:02,000
we ain't going to get it.
It's not going to happen. I

677
00:43:02,039 --> 00:43:06,400
think you can't put the genie back
into the bottle, and I'm not sure

678
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:07,880
you can slow it down. The
only thing you can do is just to

679
00:43:08,119 --> 00:43:12,039
accelerate our own efforts. And I
think you're right. It has to be

680
00:43:12,079 --> 00:43:15,159
international. I think there. I
think you start with a like minded and

681
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,800
like valued states. Start with that. And frankly, I think you know,

682
00:43:19,039 --> 00:43:21,679
obviously, you know what AI stands
for. It stands for America and

683
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:25,039
Israel. Obviously, I'm just plugging
my own country. But it's a it's

684
00:43:25,039 --> 00:43:29,920
not an empty plug, because I
think that there's a concentration of talent an

685
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,320
Israel that makes it more than a
mouse compared to the American elephant. It's

686
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:37,639
more than that. It's a very
nimble mammal, very fast compact, and

687
00:43:37,679 --> 00:43:44,960
it's it's also got this feed of
military AI which moves very fast and takes

688
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:49,280
a very large part of the population. The talents there screens it and it

689
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,039
trains it very quickly. So I
think that you start with a like minded

690
00:43:52,079 --> 00:43:58,239
states, you definitely should have a
very robust conversation. First of all,

691
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:02,320
decide among us what is something there
are things that we wouldn't want to share,

692
00:44:02,519 --> 00:44:07,440
and it's obvious related to our security. There are standards that we have,

693
00:44:07,559 --> 00:44:12,639
ethical standards and other regulations that we
have to achieve quickly among between industry

694
00:44:12,639 --> 00:44:16,440
and governments quickly. And then I
think we have to conduct a robust discussion

695
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:22,159
with the other powers of the world
based on their self interest, as you

696
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:24,639
began to do. And I think
that's a pioneering work, and I think

697
00:44:24,639 --> 00:44:30,159
we have a shot maybe at getting
to some degree of control over our future,

698
00:44:30,199 --> 00:44:34,480
which could be amazing. You know, I'm not sure I want to

699
00:44:34,519 --> 00:44:37,800
live in heaven. It could be
boring. I don't mean the boring company.

700
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:39,840
I mean it could be boring,
But I think we're headed. I'd

701
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:45,920
much rather have a boring heaven than
an interesting hell. So here at Tesla,

702
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:47,960
they have a different name for pause
button. They call it the break.

703
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,960
And when we launched this pause letter, right, I personally didn't think

704
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:57,559
that there was immediately going to cause
a pause for me. The real purpose

705
00:44:57,599 --> 00:45:00,880
of it was the mainstream the conversation
about these issues, which really did happen.

706
00:45:01,199 --> 00:45:06,039
And you know, I really appreciate
you and Sam and your colleagues for

707
00:45:06,159 --> 00:45:09,760
saying very openly that there may come
a time when you will want to pause

708
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:15,199
certain things if you meet certain criteria. Right now, if Elon says that

709
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:19,559
may come a time when he's going
to slow down his Tesla, I would

710
00:45:19,599 --> 00:45:22,840
feel I would trust that more if
I knew that Tesla actually had breaks in

711
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:25,079
it, so that they had like
a mechanism by which you could actually slow

712
00:45:25,119 --> 00:45:28,960
it down. So this is something
I'm very curious to actually to hear it

713
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:34,760
from you about if what criteria and
would you say that you all have can

714
00:45:35,079 --> 00:45:37,639
can you say it in the future, say it already now, Like what

715
00:45:37,679 --> 00:45:39,800
are some things which would make you
want to pause? And and then won't

716
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:45,159
it be difficult with the actual mechanism, like to resist commercial pressures to continue

717
00:45:45,199 --> 00:45:47,599
even if you and Sam want to
pause. Well, I actually kind of

718
00:45:47,639 --> 00:45:52,519
agree with both of you right that, I think that my picture of how

719
00:45:52,559 --> 00:45:55,159
the future is going to play out
in terms of AI development is not as

720
00:45:55,199 --> 00:45:59,159
simple as oh, you're scaling models
and then you see something a little bit

721
00:45:59,199 --> 00:46:01,440
weird and then you like stop all
scaling and you all go home or something,

722
00:46:01,519 --> 00:46:04,760
right'. It's it's definitely not going
to be that. I think that

723
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:09,199
we need to be making maximum velocity
efforts towards a good future, right,

724
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:12,719
And I think that is something that
you don't want to pause. You actually

725
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:15,000
want to put the foot on the
pedal. Now, of course, the

726
00:46:15,079 --> 00:46:17,960
question is what actions actually get you
towards there, which ones are against it,

727
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:21,880
you know, Like I think that
nuance is something that I think is

728
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:23,480
what we should be debating. But
that's why I actually bounce a little bit

729
00:46:23,519 --> 00:46:27,800
off of the framing of a pause, because I think even to the point

730
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:30,920
of GPD four, doing all this
prediction work ahead of time, like if

731
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:32,280
that prediction work was a little bit
wobbly, weren't quite there, and we

732
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:35,960
actually do this all the time,
that there's like some experiment that came back

733
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:37,639
a little bit strange, we're not
really sure we understand it. We actually

734
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:40,519
spend a lot of time to fix
that. And it's not even you know,

735
00:46:40,519 --> 00:46:43,960
even if you forget about the safety
reasons, and actually one of the

736
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:45,519
reasons we do it is safety motivated. But if you even forget about that,

737
00:46:45,519 --> 00:46:47,480
you're just not going to build a
good system. And so I think

738
00:46:47,519 --> 00:46:53,239
that there's a lot of places in
AI where there's actually great alignment between capability

739
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:57,679
and safety, between building something useful
and something that is safe. It's not

740
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:00,400
perfect, but I think it is
actually surprising where there are divergences. Actually,

741
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:05,199
the single biggest divergence we've seen has
not been owe too much pressure to

742
00:47:05,199 --> 00:47:07,119
deploy quickly because I actually think that
getting things out, Like you can see,

743
00:47:07,159 --> 00:47:10,440
the market it hates hallucinations, It
hates it when the model makes something

744
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:13,800
up. All the jokes we made
about oh it doesn't give you good insights,

745
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:15,039
the market hates that stuff, right, And actually I think it's very

746
00:47:15,079 --> 00:47:19,920
aligned with safety to fix them.
But what the market actually pushes us against

747
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:22,400
is actually when it comes into conflict
with other values, for example privacy.

748
00:47:22,639 --> 00:47:27,440
Right, So that the way we
launch the initial gpt APIs was that we

749
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:29,880
said, hey, we're going to
monitor everything. We're going to record everything,

750
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:31,599
like if something sketchy comes up,
we'll go and look and we'll be

751
00:47:31,599 --> 00:47:34,519
able to look back in the logs. We'll be able to see what you

752
00:47:34,559 --> 00:47:37,719
did. People hate that, right, like you know you kind of want

753
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:39,880
that for everyone else, but for
yourself you want privacy. And so how

754
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:44,039
do you balance those two factors?
And we actually see this very much in

755
00:47:44,159 --> 00:47:47,119
terms of to actually win deals to
decide to be able to give companies the

756
00:47:47,119 --> 00:47:50,119
assurance that hey, we're not going
to retain any of your data, will

757
00:47:50,159 --> 00:47:52,920
delete it immediately. That removes our
ability to do any investigation post talk.

758
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:55,519
And so this is actually a place
where I think government can be very helpful,

759
00:47:55,519 --> 00:47:59,880
where norms can be very helpful to
say, hey, even though you

760
00:48:00,079 --> 00:48:04,719
know that this is what would be
you know commercially most viable, that this

761
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:06,559
is what the rule is going to
be, and everyone has to play with

762
00:48:06,559 --> 00:48:08,360
it. You don't ever race to
the bottom. So I think that again,

763
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:12,079
it's all going to be nuanced,
it's all going to be I think,

764
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:15,559
like I've just accepted that this field
it's totally counterintuitive, Like everything we

765
00:48:15,639 --> 00:48:20,199
learn this is like it just would
make you just like if you told yourself

766
00:48:20,199 --> 00:48:22,000
ten years ago you have said,
there's no way. That sounds totally crazy,

767
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:25,639
and somehow we have to navigate through
that. Well, the only thing

768
00:48:25,679 --> 00:48:30,039
that I can add to this conversation
is to invite you all to as well.

769
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:34,000
I'd like to, in fact continue
this conversation, in fact, bring

770
00:48:34,119 --> 00:48:38,280
a few more of your colleagues and
a few leaders to discuss this international strategy

771
00:48:38,599 --> 00:48:44,719
for like minded states to begin with
that, you know, first like minded

772
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:46,880
states, then the world. Okay, how about that as a plan of

773
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:52,320
action. But I think that I
think that the work that you're doing is

774
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:54,920
amazing. Nothink short of it.
You know, Elon was saying, what

775
00:48:55,039 --> 00:49:00,280
is a human being? It's sort
of this two legged thing ape like true,

776
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:05,320
with a cortex and a computer and
its wants, desires and a brain.

777
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:07,679
But the brain is developing in ways
that we couldn't possibly imagine, and

778
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:12,639
it just doesn't stop. Well,
I mean, from my other comments,

779
00:49:12,679 --> 00:49:16,519
like the thing that paps should provide
some hope for digital not being controllable in

780
00:49:16,519 --> 00:49:21,679
a very very specific way but acting
in a way that is beneficial to humans

781
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:25,440
is that our cortex and our limc
system, the cortex is actually in service

782
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:29,840
to the limits system. So you
know, the cortex, the thinking part,

783
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:32,039
is constantly trying to make the instinctual
part happy, even though it is

784
00:49:32,119 --> 00:49:37,199
much smarter than the instinctual part.
And so I think there's hope there that

785
00:49:37,519 --> 00:49:40,400
digital superintelligence, even though it is
much smarter than our cortex, will none

786
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:45,199
less want to make the cortex happy
and ultimately LIMICS system happy. I mean

787
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:49,159
not to get too off color here, but the sheer amount of thinking and

788
00:49:49,559 --> 00:49:53,599
about two that people have done to
have sex is a lot, but not

789
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:59,079
sex will procreation, just for the
to make the limics system happy. So

790
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:02,159
you know, given how much you
know thought has gone into getting laid essentially,

791
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:06,280
but for the sole purpose of getting
laid, not procreation, and all

792
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:08,599
that does is make the limbic system, you know, give us block of

793
00:50:08,679 --> 00:50:14,480
joy that gives. I think that's
actually suggests that there is a good future

794
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:19,039
where even if we don't understand the
digital superintelligence, just as the Olympic system

795
00:50:19,079 --> 00:50:22,599
does not under understated the cortex,
it might still actually at the end of

796
00:50:22,599 --> 00:50:23,920
the day, if you're trying to
make our limbic system and cortex happy,

797
00:50:24,199 --> 00:50:27,519
is that a happy note to end? I think it's a great note to

798
00:50:27,599 --> 00:50:30,840
end on. Thank you, Thank
you everyone, Thank you athletes. So

799
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:30,599
that's really amid