1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:07,200 You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,719 --> 00:00:12,039 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,000 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,640 murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together 6 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:28,440 with Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a 7 00:00:28,519 --> 00:00:32,439 researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social 8 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:37,759 media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 9 00:00:37,799 --> 00:00:47,679 in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind of a Murder. I'm Kristin 10 00:00:47,759 --> 00:00:52,679 Dilley and I'm Bill Thomas. We're joined today by Colleen Fitzpatrick, a pioneer 11 00:00:52,719 --> 00:00:58,399 in the field of forensic genetic genealogy and rocket scientist, one of our favorite 12 00:00:58,399 --> 00:01:00,840 people to talk to. Colleen, welcome back to the podcast. Thanks for 13 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:04,159 having me, glad to be here. We wanted to talk to you about 14 00:01:04,159 --> 00:01:08,799 a couple of pretty interesting things that have come across the radar recently in the 15 00:01:08,799 --> 00:01:14,400 field of investigative genetic genealogy. So we want to talk to you specifically today 16 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:19,400 about Summerton Man. Yeah. This was a great case. Yeah, it's 17 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:23,000 my favorite so far. I have all my cases or favorites, but I 18 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:26,760 like this one the best. Yeah, A little bit of information about the 19 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:33,000 Summerton Man case. The Somerton Man case was the most well known case in 20 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:38,439 Australia, the well known, most well known cold case in Australia. It 21 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:42,879 was a man who was found dead on a beach in Adelaide, near Adelaide 22 00:01:44,079 --> 00:01:48,560 in nineteen forty eight. He had no tags in his clothes. He had 23 00:01:48,599 --> 00:01:53,480 apparently died. The autopsy said by poison, but no poison could be found 24 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:59,239 in any system. So this became a mystery because nobody knew who he was, 25 00:01:59,359 --> 00:02:01,760 and I guess Adelaide's not that big a town. So they put it 26 00:02:01,879 --> 00:02:07,200 the news in the paper and so on. Nobody identified him and then they 27 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:12,360 The first thing that happened was they found his suitcase in the Adelaide train station. 28 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,680 He had checked it. Then he had taken I think taken the trolley. 29 00:02:15,719 --> 00:02:19,120 I think he had he had bought a bus ticket but he took the 30 00:02:19,199 --> 00:02:22,919 trolley to the beach, and then he wound up dying on the beach. 31 00:02:23,599 --> 00:02:28,159 He's sitting there, fully clothed, with his back against the seawall dead. 32 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:31,439 He didn't wash up on the shore or anything like that. The fact that 33 00:02:31,479 --> 00:02:36,120 he's at the beach. He wasn't in the water or anything like that. 34 00:02:36,159 --> 00:02:39,439 As far as they know, he appears to be not have died of natural 35 00:02:39,479 --> 00:02:44,800 causes, but have committed suicide. But they don't know how. No, 36 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:47,879 it was indeterminate. He was wearing a suit and a tie, his shoes 37 00:02:47,879 --> 00:02:52,360 were clean. They weren't. It wasn't like he was walking in the mud 38 00:02:52,439 --> 00:02:57,759 or the soil of wet sand. He yeah, they couldn't. They thought 39 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:02,000 he was poisoned. They thought he had eaten a pasty earlier in the day 40 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:07,960 for something, and some of his organs were gorged with blood, which is 41 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:13,159 an indication of poison. But they could not find any poison in his system, 42 00:03:13,599 --> 00:03:16,120 so there was They couldn't say he was poisoned. They couldn't say he 43 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:22,280 wasn't poisoned. He could have died of natural causes. It was so indeterminate, 44 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:27,439 and the inquests, whatever the corner did led nowhere. The media led 45 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:32,400 nowhere. The contents of the suitcase led nowhere. There were the tags were 46 00:03:32,479 --> 00:03:37,520 taken out, the clothes in the suitcase. He had ties, he had 47 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:40,560 bathrobe, he had shirts, you know what you'd think you'd pack for a 48 00:03:40,599 --> 00:03:46,360 few days away, and a few tools, postcards, a few pencils, 49 00:03:46,639 --> 00:03:52,560 nothing really that jumped out at you. And they had actually one of the 50 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:57,879 clues that one of the few clues at that time was that three articles in 51 00:03:57,919 --> 00:04:02,639 the suitcase there I think like a duffel or a clothing bag, a T 52 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:08,919 shirt which was called a singlet, and a tie and they were marked in 53 00:04:08,919 --> 00:04:13,039 India ink with the name Keene k e a n e A k e a 54 00:04:13,319 --> 00:04:18,000 n and the first initial was either T or J. Immediately this being one 55 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:24,040 of the only clues the authorities were looking for mister Keane and went nowhere too. 56 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:28,279 The man was buried, and so he takes a strange turn. At 57 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:31,399 that point. When the man was buried, they did a couple of things 58 00:04:31,439 --> 00:04:36,439 happened. They made a plaster cast of the upper torso of his body, 59 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:41,639 and that was to keep some kind of record. They took autopsy photographs. 60 00:04:41,639 --> 00:04:46,959 But then they did this plaster cast. And they also eventually about that time, 61 00:04:46,319 --> 00:04:50,720 they buried him and they were putting his clothes away as evidence, and 62 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:57,040 they found a small fob pocket, like a watch pocket that they had not 63 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:00,480 noticed. This is where the story take. It's kind of a bizarre turn 64 00:05:00,959 --> 00:05:05,680 because there was a small piece of paper in the pocket and it had two 65 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:13,480 words on it, and it's tomin should And at first nobody really knew what 66 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:16,639 that meant, but in talking to people in the area, there was a 67 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:20,720 journalist who knew what it was, and it was the last two words of 68 00:05:20,759 --> 00:05:26,560 a love poem called the Rubaiyat by Omar Khayam. I think he was an 69 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:30,600 eleventh century Persian poet or something. The phrase a loaf of bread, of 70 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:34,160 juga, wine and dao, and that all a lot of that comes from 71 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:39,000 the road. And it turns out that those two words mean it's finished, 72 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:44,399 or the end. It's a very clear the end of a romance. It's 73 00:05:44,439 --> 00:05:48,160 a love poem. It leads to the end. Yeah, no, the 74 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:51,800 whole poem, it's a whole book. It's not just one poem. It 75 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:58,079 goes on and it talks about the fleeting nature of life and how the moving 76 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:01,680 finger writes, and having written, moves on and not want any of your 77 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:06,879 tears will erase a word of It's the transience of life, and it's a 78 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:13,920 very beautiful kind ode to living in life and live life to the fullest. 79 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:17,360 Life is beautiful and love is beautiful. And it goes on and then the 80 00:06:17,439 --> 00:06:23,959 last two words are tom and should, meaning the end with thou and I 81 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:30,639 with fate conspire to understand the scheme of things, sorry, schemes of life 82 00:06:30,639 --> 00:06:34,160 and tire and shattering it to bits, remold it near the heart's desire, 83 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:40,759 and it goes on about life and death and if you come through the garden 84 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:44,199 to find me, I won't be here anymore, and look for me in 85 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:47,360 the grass. Yeah, it's a very beautiful point. It's sad though on 86 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:53,519 some level, particularly when you think about those two words just being tucked in 87 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:57,439 this little piece of paper, But it adds to why a man dead on 88 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:02,279 the beach and he's got the words the end in part of the RUBI. 89 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:06,519 You can't make this stuff up. This is a beautiful love story for Netflix. 90 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:13,839 At one point they find okay, so this piece of paper starts to 91 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:17,319 go in the newspaper. It's another hand clue. Everybody's talking about this, 92 00:07:17,519 --> 00:07:23,680 and then a man comes forward, or it's unclear whether it was one person 93 00:07:23,879 --> 00:07:27,800 or two guys, and they say, two guys came forward, and they 94 00:07:27,839 --> 00:07:30,759 said, we parked our car near the beach the night the man died, 95 00:07:31,759 --> 00:07:35,480 and we came to get it the next morning. And when we did, 96 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:41,759 we found a copy of the Rubi out on the back seat there by someone 97 00:07:41,839 --> 00:07:44,720 I thought he owned it. He owned thought I owned it, and put 98 00:07:44,759 --> 00:07:50,519 it in the bluff compartment. Wow. However, when we read your newspaper 99 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:55,040 article. Yes, we opened the back and guess what, the last two 100 00:07:55,040 --> 00:08:00,560 words have been torn out. Okay, they have the book, and in 101 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:05,040 the back of the book there was a phone number forever. This is great. 102 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:09,199 You've got to work the clues. You have, yeah, and a 103 00:08:09,319 --> 00:08:13,360 phone number. Okay, the phone. First, they have two things. 104 00:08:13,399 --> 00:08:18,839 They have a code. The code just a bunch of letters and four lines 105 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:22,480 of letters of some kind, and then they have the phone number. The 106 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:26,480 code is a basis for the rumor that develops and he's a Russian spy. 107 00:08:26,759 --> 00:08:31,480 Okay, then that develops. Let's hold that in reserve for a few minutes, 108 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:33,440 right, Just to remind everybody, this is nineteen forty eight, so 109 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:37,759 this is a few years after the end of World War Two, and this 110 00:08:39,039 --> 00:08:48,679 is in Australia. So the conflict between the Russians and the Western pours, 111 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:52,320 if you will, is now building now that World War Two is over. 112 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:58,480 This idea that this man is a Russian spy is one of the things that 113 00:08:58,639 --> 00:09:01,799 starts to develop over time. That is correct. And in fact, there 114 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:09,960 was a top secret I think weapons station built really near Adelaide in Australia at 115 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:13,159 that time. Now, I don't think everybody knew that, but certainly eventually 116 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:18,519 it got out or some people were hired to work there. Some people knew 117 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:24,879 about it, and that probably didn't hurt the story about the man being a 118 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:28,960 spy. And so you were talking then about a phone number is found in 119 00:09:30,159 --> 00:09:35,679 the book and law enforcements begins to look into who owns this phone number? 120 00:09:35,399 --> 00:09:39,440 Yes, do you want to know who owned the phone number? Is that 121 00:09:39,039 --> 00:09:43,840 we should? We ended here? I don't know who the phone number we 122 00:09:43,919 --> 00:09:46,759 want to know? We don't get to say. Tune in next week, 123 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:54,960 Yeah, tune in next week and the phone number. Follow us on Patriot 124 00:09:56,000 --> 00:10:01,279 and you oh yeah, yes, some of our podcasts friends have a higher 125 00:10:01,399 --> 00:10:05,840 level of subscriptions. We haven't gone down that road. Let's do that. 126 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:11,559 Then let him pay rug balls. The phone number the mystery. I'll let 127 00:10:11,639 --> 00:10:16,519 the cat out the bag. Here. The phone number belongs to nurse who 128 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:22,480 lives a few hundred yards from the beach. Oh, it's all right, 129 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:24,919 it's not known who her name was. Too much later, i'll tell you 130 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,679 her name. Her name was Joe Thompson. But she was in those days 131 00:10:28,919 --> 00:10:33,879 they didn't interrogate people very thoroughly, so they didn't release her name. We 132 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:37,159 were in a different era and they were softballing her. So they go over 133 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:41,759 to her apartment and they say, and it's not really clear what happens. 134 00:10:41,879 --> 00:10:46,519 It's do you know about the Rubaiyat? And they weren't sure whether it's unclear 135 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:52,320 whether they were asking do you know what that is? Or do you know 136 00:10:52,799 --> 00:10:56,000 the Rubaiyatt I'm holding in my hand we found in the back of the car. 137 00:10:56,519 --> 00:11:00,519 And she said, I did give a copy of the Ruby to a 138 00:11:00,639 --> 00:11:05,039 friend of mine a couple of years ago when I was studying nursing in Sydney. 139 00:11:05,399 --> 00:11:07,720 What would you do at that point? I want to know who the 140 00:11:07,799 --> 00:11:13,879 friend was. Yeah, the friend is alive and well and living outside of 141 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:18,600 Sydney, Drasney, and he still has his copy, so he's not the 142 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:24,440 guy he's now. And so now it's a murky what happens because they she 143 00:11:24,639 --> 00:11:28,480 does go down to the police station, she does look at this plaster cast, 144 00:11:28,159 --> 00:11:33,360 and by various accounts, she passes out to one version. Another version 145 00:11:33,639 --> 00:11:39,039 is she doesn't act quite rights like varying degrees of discomfort there all right, 146 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:45,360 Now, Justin is her pen name, and when she signs the other book, 147 00:11:46,039 --> 00:11:50,240 Justin to her friend. So she's basically known as Justin for many years. 148 00:11:50,879 --> 00:11:56,080 Okay, so Justin, let's go down find out who Justin. She's. 149 00:11:56,240 --> 00:12:00,480 Her name is Joe Thompson. He has an eighteen month old son named 150 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:05,840 Robin. You get it, okay, now, Justin. In the end, 151 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:09,919 she says, I'm a nurse. My name is Joe Thompson. She 152 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:15,519 was not actually married yet to her future husband Prosper, because he was trying 153 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:20,559 to divorce his wife to marry Justin and she had not completed her nursing yet, 154 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:26,080 but she represented she's Joe Thompson. She's a nurse, and she has 155 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,799 an eighteen month old son named Robin. Okay, so let's talk. Let's 156 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:35,600 find out what happened to Robin now. Derek Gabbott is a professor at Adelaide 157 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:43,279 University. He became interested in the story about ten years ago and he found 158 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:46,759 out tried to find out what happened to Justin if she was still around, 159 00:12:46,879 --> 00:12:52,399 to interview her. He tried to find Robin, and Justin had died a 160 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:54,960 couple of years earlier, but Robin had only died a few months earlier. 161 00:12:56,879 --> 00:13:00,960 So he missed talking to Robin by a NAT's eyebrow. Wow. But he 162 00:13:01,159 --> 00:13:05,799 was persistent and he let's see. So some of the things he used sort 163 00:13:05,799 --> 00:13:11,519 of modern forensics to do a little bit of investigation. The Summerton Man was 164 00:13:11,759 --> 00:13:16,200 athletic. He was in good shape. Aside from the fact his organs were 165 00:13:16,279 --> 00:13:20,480 gorged with blood, let's sorry about that, but he otherwise his legs were 166 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:26,279 very muscular. He was in good shape. Let's talk about Robin for a 167 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:31,840 minute. Robin became a world class ballet dancing he died. He danced with 168 00:13:33,159 --> 00:13:41,120 the Royal Australian Ballet in the cord To Ballet. So Robin also had a 169 00:13:41,279 --> 00:13:46,320 kind of unusual feature in that he was missing his lateral incisors. So you 170 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:52,039 have your center incisors, you have the two teeth next to those, and 171 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:56,480 then you have the rest of your teeth. And some people have a condition 172 00:13:56,559 --> 00:14:01,720 called hypodontia, and that means either boy with not enough teeth or too many 173 00:14:01,799 --> 00:14:05,919 teeth. No, wait, no, it's normal. Freddie Mercury had two 174 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:11,799 extra sets of molars, and that's part why he could sing. The acoustics 175 00:14:11,879 --> 00:14:16,120 of his mouth were unusual, and he had a chance to get him removed, 176 00:14:16,159 --> 00:14:20,080 but he didn't want to do it because he was afraid the architecture would 177 00:14:20,159 --> 00:14:24,279 change and he couldn't sing like he did. I had no idea build as 178 00:14:24,279 --> 00:14:28,679 you know that I did. And then if you look at pictures of Freddie 179 00:14:28,759 --> 00:14:33,440 Mercury, he has a peculiar overbite, which he was a bit self conscious 180 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:37,480 about. Like Barbara streisand who was advised years before, oh, you'd be 181 00:14:37,519 --> 00:14:41,759 so much more beautiful if you've got a nose job, she didn't want to 182 00:14:41,879 --> 00:14:48,200 change characteristics of her nose for fear that it would damage her incredibly beautiful voice. 183 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:52,480 And Freddie Mercury felt the same way about changing the characteristics of his mouth. 184 00:14:52,639 --> 00:14:58,120 Because the guy did have a spectacular voice. And if I was him, 185 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:03,080 I wouldn't have done anything either, because that cat could sing. I 186 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:05,480 had no idea. That's really cool, all right, I learned something. 187 00:15:05,679 --> 00:15:07,879 I've learned multiple new things today, but that one's pretty excellent. So you 188 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,919 can hear about Barba Streisan. That's pretty interesting. But you're right, you're 189 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:18,600 right. In this case, Summerton Man has fewer teeth than the average bear. 190 00:15:18,879 --> 00:15:24,720 Both Robin and the Summerton Man are missing nilateral incisors, and it's just 191 00:15:24,879 --> 00:15:28,320 natural. If they didn't fall out, they just never were there. Born 192 00:15:28,399 --> 00:15:31,639 that way. Yeah, they were born that way. Tom Cruise has the 193 00:15:31,759 --> 00:15:35,559 same thing. He's missing one of them. So watch a picture of him, 194 00:15:35,639 --> 00:15:39,000 smile. You're gonna see he's missing one tooth on one side. And 195 00:15:39,159 --> 00:15:43,919 I think he actually got it fixed later when he became a big movie star. 196 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,000 But if you look in the early days, back when he was Tom 197 00:15:46,559 --> 00:15:50,759 Mepother as a young actor, I don't know if that's possible, because you'd 198 00:15:50,799 --> 00:15:54,200 have to move all your teeth. You'd have to wear braces to make room 199 00:15:54,279 --> 00:15:58,360 for that. Yeah, he did definitely change his teeth after he had some 200 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:07,440 success. Interestingly, then Robin shares this characteristic with the Summerton man and the 201 00:16:07,519 --> 00:16:12,080 well developed calves and everything. Yeah, and he also has an unusual ear 202 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:17,240 formation. I think the big part of your ear is at the bottom and 203 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:21,039 the small ear lobe. He's got that reverse, just like Robin does. 204 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:26,360 Very interesting to see where this is headed, right, Yeah, unique physical 205 00:16:26,519 --> 00:16:30,000 characteristics. Okay, you would like to go down the rabbit hole now about 206 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:36,200 Robin? Sure? Why not? Why not? This is the story the 207 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:38,320 gift that goes on givings. I hope you have the rest of the week 208 00:16:38,399 --> 00:16:44,120 to finish this podcast. Here's what happened to Robin. Robin becomes a real 209 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:49,480 world class ballet dancer. He's good. And Derek goes around trying to interview 210 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:56,960 these key characters in a story and finds out Justin has gone and Robin has 211 00:16:56,039 --> 00:17:02,039 just died. However, again, Robin has a daughter. He has a 212 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:06,359 daughter with another ballet dancer called Roma. They never get married, but they 213 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:15,400 have this daughter. Roma and Robin have Rachel's all right, So of course 214 00:17:15,559 --> 00:17:21,119 Derek catches up with Rachel and she gives the interview about who whatever she can 215 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:26,839 say, and they actually hit it off and they wind up getting madish I 216 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:33,000 thought this was such a crazy twist here she marries Professor Abbott, Derek Abbott, 217 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:41,000 the University of Adelaide professor who's looking into her father's potential origins. Yeah, 218 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:47,400 so he could be the grandson in law of the Somerton Man. Wow, 219 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:51,039 And you can't make this stuff up if we are writing a novel. 220 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:56,400 Probably all this stuff really Okay? And they have children, so now his 221 00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:00,599 children could be the potential great grandchildren the star. You're listening to mind over 222 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:08,519 Murder. We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back 223 00:18:08,599 --> 00:18:15,200 here at Mind Over Murder. When DNA starts kicking in a few years ago, 224 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:21,680 Okay, Robin's dad, now, Derek has an infinite source of Robin's 225 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,720 DNA through his daughter and through his mother in law. Okay, he takes 226 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:33,640 his daughter, his wife's DNA, Robin's daughter Rachel, and he takes her 227 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:37,839 mother's DNA, and he backs out Robin's DNA has to be so you follow 228 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:42,920 all that he now has Robin's DNA. Yes, he notices that he does 229 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:48,000 what is almost NIP testing whatever, and he finds out that Robin. Let's 230 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:52,720 see, Robin's DNA has certain American characteristics in it. It's got a little 231 00:18:53,039 --> 00:18:59,640 swife of Native American. And some of the segments are in common with the 232 00:19:00,039 --> 00:19:03,400 sentence of Thomas Jefferson. I have a big Jefferson DNA study, and he 233 00:19:03,599 --> 00:19:08,119 finds out and they have all the Jefferson descendants have certain segments certain DNA in 234 00:19:08,279 --> 00:19:14,240 common because they all come from that same family, and Robin has some of 235 00:19:14,319 --> 00:19:18,599 those. So now Robin might be American, part American. We know Robin's 236 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:22,759 mother, Justin is not know all that, but we don't know who Robin's 237 00:19:22,839 --> 00:19:27,200 father is, all right now. And some of the stuff in the suitcase 238 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:33,720 was American. And they had five, four or five ties in the suitcase. 239 00:19:33,759 --> 00:19:37,559 I think he was wearing one and he had four others. And American 240 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:41,599 ties go in one direction with the diagonal and British ties go in the other 241 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:45,480 direction, and he had both. Wow. Interesting, all right, So 242 00:19:47,039 --> 00:19:52,119 now Justin was the subject of mystery. Now Robin becomes the subject of mystery. 243 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:56,720 About two years ago, one of our genealogists offered to do an adoption 244 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:02,640 surge based on Robin's and you can do that if you're an adoptee, give 245 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:06,599 your DNA. We'll figure out who your parents are. We knew that, 246 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,960 okay, we knew Jess and we already knew her, so we essentially had 247 00:20:11,079 --> 00:20:15,119 Robin's DNA and we did an adoption search to find out who his father was. 248 00:20:15,599 --> 00:20:18,880 Hoping on the edge of our chair, we would crack the mystery wide 249 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:23,240 open and be world famous and they'd have ticker tape parades in New York City 250 00:20:23,319 --> 00:20:27,559 for it. We'd be fabulously wealthy, flying over the world in our private 251 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:34,240 jets. And alas, it was not to be, because drum roll, 252 00:20:34,599 --> 00:20:41,680 Robin's father was prospered Thompson. Oh the fiance, the later husband, It 253 00:20:41,799 --> 00:20:48,240 was divorcing his wife to marry Joe Thompson's There was we stumble on, like 254 00:20:48,319 --> 00:20:52,960 a seventy year old Peyton place that, yeah, a little overlap between his 255 00:20:53,079 --> 00:21:00,880 relationship with his ex wife and his soon to be wife. These things happen, 256 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,559 can happen, It can happen, all right, but we didn't. 257 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:07,359 I don't know if we really haven't said anything about that, but secretly we 258 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:11,279 knew that in spite of all of these coincidences. Nope, although you did 259 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:15,319 just say it on Mind over Murder. So there you have it. It's 260 00:21:15,319 --> 00:21:18,359 not a secret anymore. Yes, you can be the first one. I'll 261 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:23,319 share the private jet with you someday. Okay. It was funny because along 262 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:27,079 the way we're looking through the suitcase, Derek asked me for help with I 263 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,960 met Derek in twenty fifteen. I was down in Adelaide and we hit it 264 00:21:32,039 --> 00:21:34,359 off. He's very nice Sola, and we looked through He told me about 265 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,319 the suitcase. We looked through all the things. He asked me to look 266 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:41,920 up whether they were American items. A lot of them were Rigley Spearmint, 267 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,680 Gone Gone Home and things. And where was I going with that? He? 268 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:48,599 Oh? Yeah. We didn't really release that. But one of the 269 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:53,799 one of the real red herrings that is very interesting is that at some point 270 00:21:55,119 --> 00:22:00,799 Robin's middle name was McMahon and we started wondering about where McMahon from. Was 271 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,680 that the summer to man's real name McMahon was he named secretly after his dad. 272 00:22:04,799 --> 00:22:08,880 And we found a family of McMahon's in the UK that ran to the 273 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:14,920 Vallet School and they were like a farm team for the Royal Ballet. So 274 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,319 you'd go to the school and they'd pump you up and prep you and then 275 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,200 you could audition for the Royal Ballet, and they got a lot of their 276 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:26,079 students into the Royal Ballet, and they were missing their lateral incisors. Darn. 277 00:22:26,319 --> 00:22:30,440 So we're checking some boxes here and it was a coincidence we had them 278 00:22:30,559 --> 00:22:36,240 DNA tested. But see, thankfully the science that you brought to the table 279 00:22:36,599 --> 00:22:41,480 in terms of this investigation and exploration of the background. Now you're able to 280 00:22:41,559 --> 00:22:49,039 pin things down scientifically in terms of actual DNA relationships, which obviously they didn't 281 00:22:49,039 --> 00:22:53,799 have back in nineteen forty eight or at any point until the much more recent 282 00:22:53,920 --> 00:23:00,039 past. Well, I agree, I don't know how investigations like this that 283 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,680 have gone on before the era of DNA. I can see all kinds of 284 00:23:03,799 --> 00:23:08,000 mistakes now, even starting to Salem which trials, So let's face it, 285 00:23:08,519 --> 00:23:12,880 where just people said, hey, the guy's guilty. He was wearing a 286 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:17,920 red shirt. And I saw somebody standing in the corner wearing a red shirt. 287 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:22,000 I know. That's the murder of wonder how we survived. Yeah, 288 00:23:22,279 --> 00:23:26,839 and of course the Salem with trials are one of Kristen's favorites. She's yeah, 289 00:23:27,319 --> 00:23:30,480 been up to Salem to check that stuff out. Really, we'll have 290 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:37,039 to talk about that, because I actually have some really interesting information about that. 291 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:41,759 Oh I'd love to hear about that, how the weather may have caused 292 00:23:41,839 --> 00:23:47,359 the hallucinations, but I would talk about that the moldy crops the earth. 293 00:23:47,759 --> 00:23:49,640 Okay, yeah, I actually i've heard the ergot theory before. I think 294 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:57,039 it's great and very compelling. Yeah, yeah, we'll do that. We'll 295 00:23:57,079 --> 00:24:00,640 do that off air sometime. That sounds great. That'll be another like cul 296 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:06,000 de sac we'll discuss later. Yeah, absolutely, that sounds great. Okay. 297 00:24:06,839 --> 00:24:11,039 At this point, then you're doing traditional investigative work checking things out, 298 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:15,319 the objects in the suitcase and so on, but you're also pinning down the 299 00:24:15,519 --> 00:24:22,839 DNA and familial relationships between these players and potential players like the McMahon with the 300 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:29,640 quarter Ballet the United Kingdom, and some things don't pan out, so that 301 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:34,039 ends up being a dead end in terms of father relationship for Robin. Yeah, 302 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:40,559 so Robin is not connected at all. It was Joe Thompson. Everybody 303 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:45,640 just speculated, and we're talking about your speculation. What does that mean? 304 00:24:45,799 --> 00:24:51,319 You don't have any proof and she's not ratting out Prosper because he's getting a 305 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,440 divorce and heaven knows, what his wife would do to him. She knew 306 00:24:53,559 --> 00:25:00,039 the backstory. This kind of goes on, and so anyway, fast forward 307 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:04,559 between the fifties. Here you have a woman with a baby that might be 308 00:25:04,759 --> 00:25:08,079 his, and he might be a spy, and he may have been poisoned, 309 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,559 but nobody knows any poisoned. And all the tickets are taken out of 310 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:17,319 the clothes. The name Keen dun't pan out. People come forward with other 311 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:22,440 people who have died with the Rubaiyat by their side, or pictures of ID 312 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,880 cards with hey, this looks just like the guy, or hey, I 313 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:30,359 saw somebody really strange hanging around two weeks before and it looks just like him. 314 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,720 All that stuff, and that's brought us to last year. So what 315 00:25:33,839 --> 00:25:41,279 happened last year? All these years, the Attorney General of South Australia refused 316 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:47,359 to allow the man to be exhumed. He said, this is only fun 317 00:25:47,519 --> 00:25:51,920 for curiosity entertained or whatever, no compelling reason to do this. Let him 318 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,279 sleep in peace. Who cares? And there was always the argument that he 319 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:59,759 has a family looking for him. Really there is a humanitarian reason for exuming 320 00:25:59,839 --> 00:26:03,359 him and doing DNA testing, And they were saying no, whatever, and 321 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:07,759 then mister raw went out of office and the new Attorney General came in. 322 00:26:07,839 --> 00:26:11,839 It's a woman, I forget her name, and she said, hey, 323 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,119 it's fine, okay, yeah, you can exume him. And plans were 324 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:22,359 developed to exume him and it was done very tight security. The police were 325 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,880 out there. There's pictures on the internet, people drones having a look and 326 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:30,319 stuff like that, and the results, whatever they got were a secret and 327 00:26:30,599 --> 00:26:33,839 nobody was talking about them. And we were thinking, gosh, I went 328 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,960 to be part of that, and I may have been had it continued on 329 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,960 that same course. But I have to say, however, three, you 330 00:26:42,039 --> 00:26:47,400 go back to the plaster that was made. When they took the plaster cast 331 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:49,880 and removed it, they caught some of the man's hair in the plaster. 332 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:56,680 About ten years ago Derek was allowed access to that plaster cast and they allowed 333 00:26:56,759 --> 00:27:02,759 him to remove some of the hair when he removed it. He actually had 334 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:07,039 I would like to say, a hair removal specialist with him. It was 335 00:27:07,079 --> 00:27:11,720 a graduate student that it was bundles of hair that were pulled out and she 336 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,039 carefully took the hair in the middle of the bundle so it wasn't exposed to 337 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:19,920 the chemistry. Of the plastic. He had done some isotope analysis on the 338 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,960 hair. He had done but he had tried. He got the mitochondria Happler 339 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,920 group. He had done some things on it. Last fall we discussed that 340 00:27:29,039 --> 00:27:33,440 he had this hair. And now one of the technical advancements as you can 341 00:27:33,519 --> 00:27:37,680 get DNA nuclear DNA out of rootless hair. We were trying to preserve the 342 00:27:37,759 --> 00:27:41,319 hair with the roots because until a few years ago he needed the roots to 343 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:48,359 get the nuclear DNA. But now there are places companies, research institutes that 344 00:27:48,799 --> 00:27:52,079 can get DNA out of hair shafts. This is obviously of great interest to 345 00:27:52,319 --> 00:27:57,519 us in the Colonial Parkway murders because my sister Cathy had hair in her hand 346 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:02,000 at autopsy. There you go, Bill, there you go. If you 347 00:28:02,039 --> 00:28:07,119 can get the FBI to test the hair appropriate, that's where we find ourselves 348 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:12,519 at this moment. Please continue. So there are top labs who are now 349 00:28:12,759 --> 00:28:19,400 able to extract nuclear DNA, that is a searchable DNA profile from the shaft 350 00:28:19,599 --> 00:28:23,440 of the hair, not necessarily the root material. Okay, now, let 351 00:28:23,519 --> 00:28:26,759 me say it takes a little bit of art to do that, a little 352 00:28:26,799 --> 00:28:30,839 bit of science. The reason nobody knew that for a long time. My 353 00:28:32,039 --> 00:28:36,960 understanding is that the DNA and the hair is actually fragmented and you have small 354 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:42,480 fragments. And my understanding was that you can get mitochondrial DNA from the hair, 355 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:48,799 the female DNA, but it's bigger pieces. So in developing the protocols 356 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:55,680 to obtain the mitochondria, the smaller pieces escaped or escape notice something like that. 357 00:28:55,839 --> 00:29:00,240 Now that's a layman's explanation. People just didn't know to look for smaller 358 00:29:00,279 --> 00:29:04,839 fragments. I think that's what happened. So the smaller fragments need to be 359 00:29:06,039 --> 00:29:11,359 stitched together appropriately to make the kind of file and the data we need to 360 00:29:11,559 --> 00:29:15,119 use. There are two kinds of markers. There's str short tandem repeats, 361 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:22,240 which are like pieces of DNA real estate pieces, and there's snips, which 362 00:29:22,279 --> 00:29:26,279 are just points. So the chance of getting st off the real estate the 363 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:33,880 pieces of DNA out of those fragments is still an area of research. There 364 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:37,359 are people working on that. But snips are points, so even if you 365 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,920 have a little teeny piece of DNA, there's going to be a point of 366 00:29:41,039 --> 00:29:45,000 DNA sitting on that. So snips are not only can you get DNA from 367 00:29:45,039 --> 00:29:51,240 the hair, Now we do snips. We do autosomal snips like Ancestry twenty 368 00:29:51,279 --> 00:29:55,920 from They all use this point system and that's in the last few years. 369 00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:00,640 So the technology had arrived, not only to get the DNA, be able 370 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,039 to stitch it together to make the data we need to do genealogy. Are 371 00:30:04,079 --> 00:30:07,160 you able to tell us which lab did the work on that or is that 372 00:30:07,359 --> 00:30:14,200 proprietary knowledge right now? It was Austraia Forensics and everybody knows about them. 373 00:30:14,559 --> 00:30:17,880 We've heard really good stuff about them. Yeah. Yeah, We've had some 374 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:23,880 very good conversations with Ed Greene and Kelly Harkins kincaide from Estrea And as a 375 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:29,680 matter of fact, my initial contact with them was facilitated by you and David 376 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:33,519 Middleman. You'd both recommended Bill. If you want to learn more about how 377 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:37,920 this technology has advanced, these are the people to talk to. So you 378 00:30:37,079 --> 00:30:42,519 brought in Austraia to take a look at the hair that was left from the 379 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:47,759 mask, which had been sitting there for decades. We did it the other 380 00:30:47,839 --> 00:30:52,759 way around. Derrik had some hair from the police ten years earlier. He 381 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:59,119 had a collection of hair that he was very carefully coveting and protecting God and 382 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:06,160 so we sent some hair to Australia and we got a snip profile maybe January 383 00:31:06,279 --> 00:31:10,960 February that we could use for genealogy. How long did it take them to 384 00:31:11,599 --> 00:31:15,720 create the profile, I'd say a couple of months, so the turnaround time 385 00:31:15,839 --> 00:31:19,680 was quite reasonable given the level of technology and science that goes into it. 386 00:31:21,359 --> 00:31:25,200 Yeah, and a lot of it is not only the extraction but also the 387 00:31:25,279 --> 00:31:30,480 bioinformatics to get that data all together into a data set that can be used. 388 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,319 You can have those little fragments with snips all over the floor and you've 389 00:31:34,319 --> 00:31:38,160 got to assemble them into the rug, so to speak. So it takes 390 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:42,079 some thought. The smaller the piece, the harder it is to find out 391 00:31:42,119 --> 00:31:47,319 where it fits somewhere in the genome. So it took i'd say a couple 392 00:31:47,359 --> 00:31:49,200 of months, which was reasonable. They're really good at it. They do 393 00:31:49,359 --> 00:31:55,000 well. And were you still calling these samples summerton Man at this point and 394 00:31:55,079 --> 00:31:56,680 that was the name you're working with, right, I'm not sure what we 395 00:31:56,799 --> 00:32:00,079 called it. We didn't exactly say, hey, this is a Summer to 396 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,480 Man, but we don't want to tell you about it. I forgot what 397 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:07,759 we called it. We called we had so we called him Sandy. I 398 00:32:07,079 --> 00:32:16,319 called him because he was found at we always referred to Sandy. We're gonna 399 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:21,839 Sandy McMahon. I think we we called him. I think the original name 400 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:23,880 was Jerry McManus said I didn't like that, so I think we changed to 401 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:29,720 mcmah. I like that. That's great. He probably would laugh to hear 402 00:32:29,799 --> 00:32:32,960 that. So they came back to you with a profile. Was that inn 403 00:32:34,039 --> 00:32:37,359 F format that was allowed you then to begin to do your work on the 404 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:45,559 forensic genetic genealogy side. Yeah, that's sub jet match family tree DNA uploaded 405 00:32:45,799 --> 00:32:52,240 through the whole nine yards. Like you think you've had great success. Wait, 406 00:32:52,279 --> 00:32:54,720 we're not done yet. No, totally not, And this is fascinating. 407 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:59,279 Keep going Okay, No, it gets more fascinating in a minute, 408 00:32:59,279 --> 00:33:02,319 because you got to know who he is. The whole forensic genealogy thing is 409 00:33:02,319 --> 00:33:08,799 an American phenomenon, and the databases are full of American genealogists. So normally 410 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:15,079 you do a case outside of say US and even Canada, and you run 411 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:20,599 into low matches. You run into you would see normally you'd think the matches 412 00:33:20,839 --> 00:33:25,039 anybody on the list are going to be distant matches because he's dead in nineteen 413 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:30,079 forty eight, and maybe he connects to Americans through the UK before they came 414 00:33:30,119 --> 00:33:35,680 to the United States or to Australia. You can really understand a very deep 415 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:39,640 connection. But recent who knows. We got lucky. We got lucky because 416 00:33:39,759 --> 00:33:45,559 the top match was a young man who was like on his second cousin levels. 417 00:33:45,039 --> 00:33:49,240 The rest of them, the rest of them were really low and they 418 00:33:49,319 --> 00:33:52,680 did connect in the UK. There were a lot of Americans that connected to 419 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:57,799 whoever he was a long time ago. This man, his name was Jack. 420 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,119 He was maybe thirty years old, and he didn't know who his father 421 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:06,000 was, and the connection was through his father's line to the Somerton man. 422 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,840 Of course, I spent a weekend and then I wrote him, I said, 423 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,679 we're doing this John Doe case. I really can't talk a lot about 424 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,679 it. You turned out that if you shared your DNA with us, or 425 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:22,679 you shared your story, or you shared your ancestry account, whatever, it 426 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:24,800 would be very helpful to us to find out who this man is. And 427 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:30,519 we didn't say anything else about it. And because I was American, they 428 00:34:30,599 --> 00:34:36,400 didn't really suspect that this was an Australian case. Join us again next time, 429 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:40,760 on mind Over Murder. As we continue our conversation with forensic genetic genealogist 430 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:46,159 Colleen Fitzpatrick, she will tell us the rest of the story about how she 431 00:34:46,599 --> 00:34:52,199 and Derek Abbott, the University of Adelaide professor, and the team at Austreya 432 00:34:52,519 --> 00:35:00,239 Forensics solve the mystery of who is the Somerton Man and why this mystery remained 433 00:35:00,559 --> 00:35:06,880 locked since nineteen forty eight. That's next time on mind Over Murder. Thank 434 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,679 you so much for listening to this episode of mind Over Murder. We'll see 435 00:35:09,679 --> 00:35:23,719 you next time. Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another 436 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:30,599 Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo 437 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:36,000 art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. Mind 438 00:35:36,039 --> 00:35:40,280 Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. You can follow us 439 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:45,320 on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our page on 440 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:50,039 the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas 441 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:54,679 on Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. Thank you for listening to mind Over 442 00:35:54,840 --> 00:36:07,559 Murder. Old