You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas.
I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now
trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other
victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway
murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together
with Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a
researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social
media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner
in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind of a Murder. I'm Kristin
Dilley and I'm Bill Thomas. We're joined today by Colleen Fitzpatrick, a pioneer
in the field of forensic genetic genealogy and rocket scientist, one of our favorite
people to talk to. Colleen, welcome back to the podcast. Thanks for
having me, glad to be here. We wanted to talk to you about
a couple of pretty interesting things that have come across the radar recently in the
field of investigative genetic genealogy. So we want to talk to you specifically today
about Summerton Man. Yeah. This was a great case. Yeah, it's
my favorite so far. I have all my cases or favorites, but I
like this one the best. Yeah, A little bit of information about the
Summerton Man case. The Somerton Man case was the most well known case in
Australia, the well known, most well known cold case in Australia. It
was a man who was found dead on a beach in Adelaide, near Adelaide
in nineteen forty eight. He had no tags in his clothes. He had
apparently died. The autopsy said by poison, but no poison could be found
in any system. So this became a mystery because nobody knew who he was,
and I guess Adelaide's not that big a town. So they put it
the news in the paper and so on. Nobody identified him and then they
The first thing that happened was they found his suitcase in the Adelaide train station.
He had checked it. Then he had taken I think taken the trolley.
I think he had he had bought a bus ticket but he took the
trolley to the beach, and then he wound up dying on the beach.
He's sitting there, fully clothed, with his back against the seawall dead.
He didn't wash up on the shore or anything like that. The fact that
he's at the beach. He wasn't in the water or anything like that.
As far as they know, he appears to be not have died of natural
causes, but have committed suicide. But they don't know how. No,
it was indeterminate. He was wearing a suit and a tie, his shoes
were clean. They weren't. It wasn't like he was walking in the mud
or the soil of wet sand. He yeah, they couldn't. They thought
he was poisoned. They thought he had eaten a pasty earlier in the day
for something, and some of his organs were gorged with blood, which is
an indication of poison. But they could not find any poison in his system,
so there was They couldn't say he was poisoned. They couldn't say he
wasn't poisoned. He could have died of natural causes. It was so indeterminate,
and the inquests, whatever the corner did led nowhere. The media led
nowhere. The contents of the suitcase led nowhere. There were the tags were
taken out, the clothes in the suitcase. He had ties, he had
bathrobe, he had shirts, you know what you'd think you'd pack for a
few days away, and a few tools, postcards, a few pencils,
nothing really that jumped out at you. And they had actually one of the
clues that one of the few clues at that time was that three articles in
the suitcase there I think like a duffel or a clothing bag, a T
shirt which was called a singlet, and a tie and they were marked in
India ink with the name Keene k e a n e A k e a
n and the first initial was either T or J. Immediately this being one
of the only clues the authorities were looking for mister Keane and went nowhere too.
The man was buried, and so he takes a strange turn. At
that point. When the man was buried, they did a couple of things
happened. They made a plaster cast of the upper torso of his body,
and that was to keep some kind of record. They took autopsy photographs.
But then they did this plaster cast. And they also eventually about that time,
they buried him and they were putting his clothes away as evidence, and
they found a small fob pocket, like a watch pocket that they had not
noticed. This is where the story take. It's kind of a bizarre turn
because there was a small piece of paper in the pocket and it had two
words on it, and it's tomin should And at first nobody really knew what
that meant, but in talking to people in the area, there was a
journalist who knew what it was, and it was the last two words of
a love poem called the Rubaiyat by Omar Khayam. I think he was an
eleventh century Persian poet or something. The phrase a loaf of bread, of
juga, wine and dao, and that all a lot of that comes from
the road. And it turns out that those two words mean it's finished,
or the end. It's a very clear the end of a romance. It's
a love poem. It leads to the end. Yeah, no, the
whole poem, it's a whole book. It's not just one poem. It
goes on and it talks about the fleeting nature of life and how the moving
finger writes, and having written, moves on and not want any of your
tears will erase a word of It's the transience of life, and it's a
very beautiful kind ode to living in life and live life to the fullest.
Life is beautiful and love is beautiful. And it goes on and then the
last two words are tom and should, meaning the end with thou and I
with fate conspire to understand the scheme of things, sorry, schemes of life
and tire and shattering it to bits, remold it near the heart's desire,
and it goes on about life and death and if you come through the garden
to find me, I won't be here anymore, and look for me in
the grass. Yeah, it's a very beautiful point. It's sad though on
some level, particularly when you think about those two words just being tucked in
this little piece of paper, But it adds to why a man dead on
the beach and he's got the words the end in part of the RUBI.
You can't make this stuff up. This is a beautiful love story for Netflix.
At one point they find okay, so this piece of paper starts to
go in the newspaper. It's another hand clue. Everybody's talking about this,
and then a man comes forward, or it's unclear whether it was one person
or two guys, and they say, two guys came forward, and they
said, we parked our car near the beach the night the man died,
and we came to get it the next morning. And when we did,
we found a copy of the Rubi out on the back seat there by someone
I thought he owned it. He owned thought I owned it, and put
it in the bluff compartment. Wow. However, when we read your newspaper
article. Yes, we opened the back and guess what, the last two
words have been torn out. Okay, they have the book, and in
the back of the book there was a phone number forever. This is great.
You've got to work the clues. You have, yeah, and a
phone number. Okay, the phone. First, they have two things.
They have a code. The code just a bunch of letters and four lines
of letters of some kind, and then they have the phone number. The
code is a basis for the rumor that develops and he's a Russian spy.
Okay, then that develops. Let's hold that in reserve for a few minutes,
right, Just to remind everybody, this is nineteen forty eight, so
this is a few years after the end of World War Two, and this
is in Australia. So the conflict between the Russians and the Western pours,
if you will, is now building now that World War Two is over.
This idea that this man is a Russian spy is one of the things that
starts to develop over time. That is correct. And in fact, there
was a top secret I think weapons station built really near Adelaide in Australia at
that time. Now, I don't think everybody knew that, but certainly eventually
it got out or some people were hired to work there. Some people knew
about it, and that probably didn't hurt the story about the man being a
spy. And so you were talking then about a phone number is found in
the book and law enforcements begins to look into who owns this phone number?
Yes, do you want to know who owned the phone number? Is that
we should? We ended here? I don't know who the phone number we
want to know? We don't get to say. Tune in next week,
Yeah, tune in next week and the phone number. Follow us on Patriot
and you oh yeah, yes, some of our podcasts friends have a higher
level of subscriptions. We haven't gone down that road. Let's do that.
Then let him pay rug balls. The phone number the mystery. I'll let
the cat out the bag. Here. The phone number belongs to nurse who
lives a few hundred yards from the beach. Oh, it's all right,
it's not known who her name was. Too much later, i'll tell you
her name. Her name was Joe Thompson. But she was in those days
they didn't interrogate people very thoroughly, so they didn't release her name. We
were in a different era and they were softballing her. So they go over
to her apartment and they say, and it's not really clear what happens.
It's do you know about the Rubaiyat? And they weren't sure whether it's unclear
whether they were asking do you know what that is? Or do you know
the Rubaiyatt I'm holding in my hand we found in the back of the car.
And she said, I did give a copy of the Ruby to a
friend of mine a couple of years ago when I was studying nursing in Sydney.
What would you do at that point? I want to know who the
friend was. Yeah, the friend is alive and well and living outside of
Sydney, Drasney, and he still has his copy, so he's not the
guy he's now. And so now it's a murky what happens because they she
does go down to the police station, she does look at this plaster cast,
and by various accounts, she passes out to one version. Another version
is she doesn't act quite rights like varying degrees of discomfort there all right,
Now, Justin is her pen name, and when she signs the other book,
Justin to her friend. So she's basically known as Justin for many years.
Okay, so Justin, let's go down find out who Justin. She's.
Her name is Joe Thompson. He has an eighteen month old son named
Robin. You get it, okay, now, Justin. In the end,
she says, I'm a nurse. My name is Joe Thompson. She
was not actually married yet to her future husband Prosper, because he was trying
to divorce his wife to marry Justin and she had not completed her nursing yet,
but she represented she's Joe Thompson. She's a nurse, and she has
an eighteen month old son named Robin. Okay, so let's talk. Let's
find out what happened to Robin now. Derek Gabbott is a professor at Adelaide
University. He became interested in the story about ten years ago and he found
out tried to find out what happened to Justin if she was still around,
to interview her. He tried to find Robin, and Justin had died a
couple of years earlier, but Robin had only died a few months earlier.
So he missed talking to Robin by a NAT's eyebrow. Wow. But he
was persistent and he let's see. So some of the things he used sort
of modern forensics to do a little bit of investigation. The Summerton Man was
athletic. He was in good shape. Aside from the fact his organs were
gorged with blood, let's sorry about that, but he otherwise his legs were
very muscular. He was in good shape. Let's talk about Robin for a
minute. Robin became a world class ballet dancing he died. He danced with
the Royal Australian Ballet in the cord To Ballet. So Robin also had a
kind of unusual feature in that he was missing his lateral incisors. So you
have your center incisors, you have the two teeth next to those, and
then you have the rest of your teeth. And some people have a condition
called hypodontia, and that means either boy with not enough teeth or too many
teeth. No, wait, no, it's normal. Freddie Mercury had two
extra sets of molars, and that's part why he could sing. The acoustics
of his mouth were unusual, and he had a chance to get him removed,
but he didn't want to do it because he was afraid the architecture would
change and he couldn't sing like he did. I had no idea build as
you know that I did. And then if you look at pictures of Freddie
Mercury, he has a peculiar overbite, which he was a bit self conscious
about. Like Barbara streisand who was advised years before, oh, you'd be
so much more beautiful if you've got a nose job, she didn't want to
change characteristics of her nose for fear that it would damage her incredibly beautiful voice.
And Freddie Mercury felt the same way about changing the characteristics of his mouth.
Because the guy did have a spectacular voice. And if I was him,
I wouldn't have done anything either, because that cat could sing. I
had no idea. That's really cool, all right, I learned something.
I've learned multiple new things today, but that one's pretty excellent. So you
can hear about Barba Streisan. That's pretty interesting. But you're right, you're
right. In this case, Summerton Man has fewer teeth than the average bear.
Both Robin and the Summerton Man are missing nilateral incisors, and it's just
natural. If they didn't fall out, they just never were there. Born
that way. Yeah, they were born that way. Tom Cruise has the
same thing. He's missing one of them. So watch a picture of him,
smile. You're gonna see he's missing one tooth on one side. And
I think he actually got it fixed later when he became a big movie star.
But if you look in the early days, back when he was Tom
Mepother as a young actor, I don't know if that's possible, because you'd
have to move all your teeth. You'd have to wear braces to make room
for that. Yeah, he did definitely change his teeth after he had some
success. Interestingly, then Robin shares this characteristic with the Summerton man and the
well developed calves and everything. Yeah, and he also has an unusual ear
formation. I think the big part of your ear is at the bottom and
the small ear lobe. He's got that reverse, just like Robin does.
Very interesting to see where this is headed, right, Yeah, unique physical
characteristics. Okay, you would like to go down the rabbit hole now about
Robin? Sure? Why not? Why not? This is the story the
gift that goes on givings. I hope you have the rest of the week
to finish this podcast. Here's what happened to Robin. Robin becomes a real
world class ballet dancer. He's good. And Derek goes around trying to interview
these key characters in a story and finds out Justin has gone and Robin has
just died. However, again, Robin has a daughter. He has a
daughter with another ballet dancer called Roma. They never get married, but they
have this daughter. Roma and Robin have Rachel's all right, So of course
Derek catches up with Rachel and she gives the interview about who whatever she can
say, and they actually hit it off and they wind up getting madish I
thought this was such a crazy twist here she marries Professor Abbott, Derek Abbott,
the University of Adelaide professor who's looking into her father's potential origins. Yeah,
so he could be the grandson in law of the Somerton Man. Wow,
And you can't make this stuff up if we are writing a novel.
Probably all this stuff really Okay? And they have children, so now his
children could be the potential great grandchildren the star. You're listening to mind over
Murder. We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back
here at Mind Over Murder. When DNA starts kicking in a few years ago,
Okay, Robin's dad, now, Derek has an infinite source of Robin's
DNA through his daughter and through his mother in law. Okay, he takes
his daughter, his wife's DNA, Robin's daughter Rachel, and he takes her
mother's DNA, and he backs out Robin's DNA has to be so you follow
all that he now has Robin's DNA. Yes, he notices that he does
what is almost NIP testing whatever, and he finds out that Robin. Let's
see, Robin's DNA has certain American characteristics in it. It's got a little
swife of Native American. And some of the segments are in common with the
sentence of Thomas Jefferson. I have a big Jefferson DNA study, and he
finds out and they have all the Jefferson descendants have certain segments certain DNA in
common because they all come from that same family, and Robin has some of
those. So now Robin might be American, part American. We know Robin's
mother, Justin is not know all that, but we don't know who Robin's
father is, all right now. And some of the stuff in the suitcase
was American. And they had five, four or five ties in the suitcase.
I think he was wearing one and he had four others. And American
ties go in one direction with the diagonal and British ties go in the other
direction, and he had both. Wow. Interesting, all right, So
now Justin was the subject of mystery. Now Robin becomes the subject of mystery.
About two years ago, one of our genealogists offered to do an adoption
surge based on Robin's and you can do that if you're an adoptee, give
your DNA. We'll figure out who your parents are. We knew that,
okay, we knew Jess and we already knew her, so we essentially had
Robin's DNA and we did an adoption search to find out who his father was.
Hoping on the edge of our chair, we would crack the mystery wide
open and be world famous and they'd have ticker tape parades in New York City
for it. We'd be fabulously wealthy, flying over the world in our private
jets. And alas, it was not to be, because drum roll,
Robin's father was prospered Thompson. Oh the fiance, the later husband, It
was divorcing his wife to marry Joe Thompson's There was we stumble on, like
a seventy year old Peyton place that, yeah, a little overlap between his
relationship with his ex wife and his soon to be wife. These things happen,
can happen, It can happen, all right, but we didn't.
I don't know if we really haven't said anything about that, but secretly we
knew that in spite of all of these coincidences. Nope, although you did
just say it on Mind over Murder. So there you have it. It's
not a secret anymore. Yes, you can be the first one. I'll
share the private jet with you someday. Okay. It was funny because along
the way we're looking through the suitcase, Derek asked me for help with I
met Derek in twenty fifteen. I was down in Adelaide and we hit it
off. He's very nice Sola, and we looked through He told me about
the suitcase. We looked through all the things. He asked me to look
up whether they were American items. A lot of them were Rigley Spearmint,
Gone Gone Home and things. And where was I going with that? He?
Oh? Yeah. We didn't really release that. But one of the
one of the real red herrings that is very interesting is that at some point
Robin's middle name was McMahon and we started wondering about where McMahon from. Was
that the summer to man's real name McMahon was he named secretly after his dad.
And we found a family of McMahon's in the UK that ran to the
Vallet School and they were like a farm team for the Royal Ballet. So
you'd go to the school and they'd pump you up and prep you and then
you could audition for the Royal Ballet, and they got a lot of their
students into the Royal Ballet, and they were missing their lateral incisors. Darn.
So we're checking some boxes here and it was a coincidence we had them
DNA tested. But see, thankfully the science that you brought to the table
in terms of this investigation and exploration of the background. Now you're able to
pin things down scientifically in terms of actual DNA relationships, which obviously they didn't
have back in nineteen forty eight or at any point until the much more recent
past. Well, I agree, I don't know how investigations like this that
have gone on before the era of DNA. I can see all kinds of
mistakes now, even starting to Salem which trials, So let's face it,
where just people said, hey, the guy's guilty. He was wearing a
red shirt. And I saw somebody standing in the corner wearing a red shirt.
I know. That's the murder of wonder how we survived. Yeah,
and of course the Salem with trials are one of Kristen's favorites. She's yeah,
been up to Salem to check that stuff out. Really, we'll have
to talk about that, because I actually have some really interesting information about that.
Oh I'd love to hear about that, how the weather may have caused
the hallucinations, but I would talk about that the moldy crops the earth.
Okay, yeah, I actually i've heard the ergot theory before. I think
it's great and very compelling. Yeah, yeah, we'll do that. We'll
do that off air sometime. That sounds great. That'll be another like cul
de sac we'll discuss later. Yeah, absolutely, that sounds great. Okay.
At this point, then you're doing traditional investigative work checking things out,
the objects in the suitcase and so on, but you're also pinning down the
DNA and familial relationships between these players and potential players like the McMahon with the
quarter Ballet the United Kingdom, and some things don't pan out, so that
ends up being a dead end in terms of father relationship for Robin. Yeah,
so Robin is not connected at all. It was Joe Thompson. Everybody
just speculated, and we're talking about your speculation. What does that mean?
You don't have any proof and she's not ratting out Prosper because he's getting a
divorce and heaven knows, what his wife would do to him. She knew
the backstory. This kind of goes on, and so anyway, fast forward
between the fifties. Here you have a woman with a baby that might be
his, and he might be a spy, and he may have been poisoned,
but nobody knows any poisoned. And all the tickets are taken out of
the clothes. The name Keen dun't pan out. People come forward with other
people who have died with the Rubaiyat by their side, or pictures of ID
cards with hey, this looks just like the guy, or hey, I
saw somebody really strange hanging around two weeks before and it looks just like him.
All that stuff, and that's brought us to last year. So what
happened last year? All these years, the Attorney General of South Australia refused
to allow the man to be exhumed. He said, this is only fun
for curiosity entertained or whatever, no compelling reason to do this. Let him
sleep in peace. Who cares? And there was always the argument that he
has a family looking for him. Really there is a humanitarian reason for exuming
him and doing DNA testing, And they were saying no, whatever, and
then mister raw went out of office and the new Attorney General came in.
It's a woman, I forget her name, and she said, hey,
it's fine, okay, yeah, you can exume him. And plans were
developed to exume him and it was done very tight security. The police were
out there. There's pictures on the internet, people drones having a look and
stuff like that, and the results, whatever they got were a secret and
nobody was talking about them. And we were thinking, gosh, I went
to be part of that, and I may have been had it continued on
that same course. But I have to say, however, three, you
go back to the plaster that was made. When they took the plaster cast
and removed it, they caught some of the man's hair in the plaster.
About ten years ago Derek was allowed access to that plaster cast and they allowed
him to remove some of the hair when he removed it. He actually had
I would like to say, a hair removal specialist with him. It was
a graduate student that it was bundles of hair that were pulled out and she
carefully took the hair in the middle of the bundle so it wasn't exposed to
the chemistry. Of the plastic. He had done some isotope analysis on the
hair. He had done but he had tried. He got the mitochondria Happler
group. He had done some things on it. Last fall we discussed that
he had this hair. And now one of the technical advancements as you can
get DNA nuclear DNA out of rootless hair. We were trying to preserve the
hair with the roots because until a few years ago he needed the roots to
get the nuclear DNA. But now there are places companies, research institutes that
can get DNA out of hair shafts. This is obviously of great interest to
us in the Colonial Parkway murders because my sister Cathy had hair in her hand
at autopsy. There you go, Bill, there you go. If you
can get the FBI to test the hair appropriate, that's where we find ourselves
at this moment. Please continue. So there are top labs who are now
able to extract nuclear DNA, that is a searchable DNA profile from the shaft
of the hair, not necessarily the root material. Okay, now, let
me say it takes a little bit of art to do that, a little
bit of science. The reason nobody knew that for a long time. My
understanding is that the DNA and the hair is actually fragmented and you have small
fragments. And my understanding was that you can get mitochondrial DNA from the hair,
the female DNA, but it's bigger pieces. So in developing the protocols
to obtain the mitochondria, the smaller pieces escaped or escape notice something like that.
Now that's a layman's explanation. People just didn't know to look for smaller
fragments. I think that's what happened. So the smaller fragments need to be
stitched together appropriately to make the kind of file and the data we need to
use. There are two kinds of markers. There's str short tandem repeats,
which are like pieces of DNA real estate pieces, and there's snips, which
are just points. So the chance of getting st off the real estate the
pieces of DNA out of those fragments is still an area of research. There
are people working on that. But snips are points, so even if you
have a little teeny piece of DNA, there's going to be a point of
DNA sitting on that. So snips are not only can you get DNA from
the hair, Now we do snips. We do autosomal snips like Ancestry twenty
from They all use this point system and that's in the last few years.
So the technology had arrived, not only to get the DNA, be able
to stitch it together to make the data we need to do genealogy. Are
you able to tell us which lab did the work on that or is that
proprietary knowledge right now? It was Austraia Forensics and everybody knows about them.
We've heard really good stuff about them. Yeah. Yeah, We've had some
very good conversations with Ed Greene and Kelly Harkins kincaide from Estrea And as a
matter of fact, my initial contact with them was facilitated by you and David
Middleman. You'd both recommended Bill. If you want to learn more about how
this technology has advanced, these are the people to talk to. So you
brought in Austraia to take a look at the hair that was left from the
mask, which had been sitting there for decades. We did it the other
way around. Derrik had some hair from the police ten years earlier. He
had a collection of hair that he was very carefully coveting and protecting God and
so we sent some hair to Australia and we got a snip profile maybe January
February that we could use for genealogy. How long did it take them to
create the profile, I'd say a couple of months, so the turnaround time
was quite reasonable given the level of technology and science that goes into it.
Yeah, and a lot of it is not only the extraction but also the
bioinformatics to get that data all together into a data set that can be used.
You can have those little fragments with snips all over the floor and you've
got to assemble them into the rug, so to speak. So it takes
some thought. The smaller the piece, the harder it is to find out
where it fits somewhere in the genome. So it took i'd say a couple
of months, which was reasonable. They're really good at it. They do
well. And were you still calling these samples summerton Man at this point and
that was the name you're working with, right, I'm not sure what we
called it. We didn't exactly say, hey, this is a Summer to
Man, but we don't want to tell you about it. I forgot what
we called it. We called we had so we called him Sandy. I
called him because he was found at we always referred to Sandy. We're gonna
Sandy McMahon. I think we we called him. I think the original name
was Jerry McManus said I didn't like that, so I think we changed to
mcmah. I like that. That's great. He probably would laugh to hear
that. So they came back to you with a profile. Was that inn
F format that was allowed you then to begin to do your work on the
forensic genetic genealogy side. Yeah, that's sub jet match family tree DNA uploaded
through the whole nine yards. Like you think you've had great success. Wait,
we're not done yet. No, totally not, And this is fascinating.
Keep going Okay, No, it gets more fascinating in a minute,
because you got to know who he is. The whole forensic genealogy thing is
an American phenomenon, and the databases are full of American genealogists. So normally
you do a case outside of say US and even Canada, and you run
into low matches. You run into you would see normally you'd think the matches
anybody on the list are going to be distant matches because he's dead in nineteen
forty eight, and maybe he connects to Americans through the UK before they came
to the United States or to Australia. You can really understand a very deep
connection. But recent who knows. We got lucky. We got lucky because
the top match was a young man who was like on his second cousin levels.
The rest of them, the rest of them were really low and they
did connect in the UK. There were a lot of Americans that connected to
whoever he was a long time ago. This man, his name was Jack.
He was maybe thirty years old, and he didn't know who his father
was, and the connection was through his father's line to the Somerton man.
Of course, I spent a weekend and then I wrote him, I said,
we're doing this John Doe case. I really can't talk a lot about
it. You turned out that if you shared your DNA with us, or
you shared your story, or you shared your ancestry account, whatever, it
would be very helpful to us to find out who this man is. And
we didn't say anything else about it. And because I was American, they
didn't really suspect that this was an Australian case. Join us again next time,
on mind Over Murder. As we continue our conversation with forensic genetic genealogist
Colleen Fitzpatrick, she will tell us the rest of the story about how she
and Derek Abbott, the University of Adelaide professor, and the team at Austreya
Forensics solve the mystery of who is the Somerton Man and why this mystery remained
locked since nineteen forty eight. That's next time on mind Over Murder. Thank
you so much for listening to this episode of mind Over Murder. We'll see
you next time. Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another
Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo
art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. Mind
Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. You can follow us
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the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas
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