WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.679 --> 00:00:11.080 Hey, folks, welcome to another episode of JavaScript Jabber. This week, 2 00:00:11.080 --> 00:00:16.079 on our panel we have Steve Edwards. I'm gonna stop in for aj and 3 00:00:16.079 --> 00:00:19.239 say yo yo yo, coming out to you from his Sonny in Blue Portland. 4 00:00:20.120 --> 00:00:24.000 We also have Dan shapiir Hey from a warm and sunny Tel Aviv. 5 00:00:24.399 --> 00:00:31.679 And here we lost Steve right nice Sonny. There it goes Charles Maxwood from 6 00:00:31.719 --> 00:00:35.320 top Endevs. A couple of quick things. One, I'm looking for work, 7 00:00:35.399 --> 00:00:38.439 so if you want to hire me to help you with podcasting or with 8 00:00:38.679 --> 00:00:43.240 programming, let me know Chuck at topendevs dot com. And then I'm also 9 00:00:43.280 --> 00:00:48.000 launching JavaScript Geniuses this week, so go check that out at JavaScript Geniuses dot 10 00:00:48.039 --> 00:00:51.399 com. I usually hold that to the end, but I anyway, we 11 00:00:51.439 --> 00:00:54.719 have a special guest this week, and that is Rich Harris. Rich, 12 00:00:54.880 --> 00:00:58.960 do you want to say hello? Hello from Brooklyn, which is not sunny 13 00:00:59.000 --> 00:01:03.079 at all today? It is in fact quite gray out there. Yeah. 14 00:01:03.879 --> 00:01:11.159 So you know, I think everybody knows you as the guy behind sveelt I 15 00:01:11.159 --> 00:01:12.799 think that's the big thing. Are there any other things that people ought to 16 00:01:12.879 --> 00:01:22.200 know? Uh? Yeah, I ow I was the original creator of roll 17 00:01:22.280 --> 00:01:26.680 up. Although I haven't been maintaining it for many years. It was taken 18 00:01:26.719 --> 00:01:30.760 over by by Lucas who has been a much better maintainer than I ever was. 19 00:01:30.959 --> 00:01:36.120 And it's really since then that it's become this sort of essential piece of 20 00:01:36.120 --> 00:01:41.400 the Jilbdscriet ecosystem. Yeah, it's part of FAT, isn't it on top 21 00:01:41.439 --> 00:01:45.920 of it? Although its amazing It just came out that Beat is starting to 22 00:01:45.920 --> 00:01:49.480 write their own tool for that based on Rust, so that they can sort 23 00:01:49.480 --> 00:01:53.319 of have complete control over that portion of their process. But yeah, until 24 00:01:53.319 --> 00:01:57.280 now it has been part of BEAT. Dan invited you, and I don't 25 00:01:57.280 --> 00:02:00.719 know if he had something in particular that he wanted to go to first, 26 00:02:00.840 --> 00:02:06.840 or I'll start with a story because I know that's what you like, Chuck, 27 00:02:07.959 --> 00:02:12.759 and it's something were Yeah, it's something we spoke about a little bit 28 00:02:12.800 --> 00:02:15.960 before the we started recording, which is about the first time that I actually 29 00:02:16.199 --> 00:02:22.759 met Rich in person, and that was at a conference called YGLF or you 30 00:02:22.840 --> 00:02:28.120 got a lot front end where Rich gave what turned out to be like a 31 00:02:28.159 --> 00:02:31.319 seminal talk. Kind of blew my mind at the time, And the name 32 00:02:31.560 --> 00:02:38.080 was Rethinking Reactivity, Right, that's the name, and it was right when 33 00:02:38.080 --> 00:02:44.039 you introduce SWELT three, which kind of turned everything on its head in a 34 00:02:44.360 --> 00:02:50.319 lot of ways. And now it seems that you're about to do it all 35 00:02:50.360 --> 00:02:55.439 over again with the swelled five and ruins, and you know, you tell 36 00:02:55.520 --> 00:03:00.000 us, so I thought it would be a great opportunity to kind of speak 37 00:03:00.039 --> 00:03:05.280 with you again and listen to what the new hotness is going to be. 38 00:03:06.400 --> 00:03:12.319 Yeah, you could say that we're rethinking, rethinking reactivity. You know, 39 00:03:12.360 --> 00:03:16.520 we had a we had a lot of really interesting ideas with felt free. 40 00:03:17.479 --> 00:03:23.560 The idea was to see how far you can take a compiler centric framework design 41 00:03:23.240 --> 00:03:30.000 and push that in order to have like this really idiomatic way of describing a 42 00:03:30.039 --> 00:03:35.680 reactive user interface, and a lot of it really succeeded. Like people, 43 00:03:35.800 --> 00:03:39.960 it turns out, love this style of authoring components, and we've got it 44 00:03:40.599 --> 00:03:46.199 to you know, to power some really larger and complex applications, and people 45 00:03:46.280 --> 00:03:49.159 have had a great time working on it. People have had a great time 46 00:03:49.199 --> 00:03:53.479 building stuff with it. But as the years have gone on, we've started 47 00:03:53.520 --> 00:03:59.280 to like butt up against the limits of what you can do with static analysis. 48 00:04:00.360 --> 00:04:05.960 And at the same time, there's been this renaissance of the idea of 49 00:04:06.120 --> 00:04:15.080 Signal based reactivity really spearheaded by the SOLID team, taking ideas that were like 50 00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:20.759 first being explored in the jovscript world in like around two thousand and nine twenty 51 00:04:20.879 --> 00:04:26.120 ten, maybe with Knockout, and bringing that into the modern era. Nowadays, 52 00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:30.480 most frameworks are using signals through their reactivity. SPELT was really one of 53 00:04:30.480 --> 00:04:33.800 the two odd people out s Felt and React, both doing things very differently 54 00:04:33.800 --> 00:04:39.720 to everyone else, and essentially we decided to fall in line. We decided 55 00:04:39.759 --> 00:04:45.360 that it's it. Signals are the right primitive to build a reactive framework on 56 00:04:45.439 --> 00:04:50.000 top of, but we have a slightly different relationship with them than other frameworks, 57 00:04:50.680 --> 00:04:54.959 and so I guess we can get into what I mean by that over 58 00:04:54.959 --> 00:04:59.639 the course of this podcast, but essentially we are rewriting SPELT from the ground 59 00:04:59.759 --> 00:05:03.399 up. It's going to be the same authoring experience that people are familiar with 60 00:05:03.399 --> 00:05:06.839 to a very large extent, but it's going to get rid of the rough 61 00:05:06.959 --> 00:05:12.079 edges that people have found with the old static analysis based reactivity. And I'm 62 00:05:12.079 --> 00:05:15.279 pretty excited about the things that we're able to do now on top of this 63 00:05:15.319 --> 00:05:20.279 new foundation. I think a good thing to do just for folks that aren't 64 00:05:20.279 --> 00:05:25.480 as familiar. Can you just give people like a really short explanation of what 65 00:05:25.519 --> 00:05:29.360 signals are, and then you can explain what's felt is doing and why you're 66 00:05:29.439 --> 00:05:33.240 changing it. Absolutely. So. The idea of signals is that you have 67 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:40.079 an object that represents some value that is changing over time, and then you 68 00:05:40.199 --> 00:05:45.680 have other parts of your code base that read those signals, and then you 69 00:05:45.759 --> 00:05:49.279 have a scheduler that is sort of aware of which functions are running and which 70 00:05:49.279 --> 00:05:55.040 functions are reading these reactive values, and so when those reactive values change, 71 00:05:55.839 --> 00:06:00.480 the scheduler is able to re execute that code to for example, keep a 72 00:06:00.519 --> 00:06:03.639 text mode up to date with some piece of state that has changed in your 73 00:06:03.639 --> 00:06:15.399 application. And where signals differ from some other related primitives like observables is they're 74 00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:21.120 very effective making sure that your code runs in a efficient and glitch free manner. 75 00:06:21.959 --> 00:06:27.879 The code that relies on these reactive values doesn't overfire, It never fires 76 00:06:27.920 --> 00:06:31.120 prematurely. Everything just kind of flows in a very natural way down from your 77 00:06:31.120 --> 00:06:35.560 reactive state down to what we call the effects, which is the updating in 78 00:06:35.600 --> 00:06:42.839 response to that state changing. And by building on top of signals, we're 79 00:06:42.879 --> 00:06:47.000 able to achieve this very surgical approach to updating the page. Instead of having 80 00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:53.279 to re render things frequently or having to do a lot of checking to see 81 00:06:53.480 --> 00:06:56.560 if things are dirty or not, we can just sort of let the reactive 82 00:06:56.600 --> 00:07:01.879 graph do its thing and things naturally at in the optimal fashion. So you 83 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:08.199 mentioned Solid before, and of course the guy who created Solid, Ryan Corneato. 84 00:07:08.319 --> 00:07:13.720 Sometimes people refer to him as the CEO of Signals, and he we 85 00:07:13.800 --> 00:07:16.680 had him as a guest several time on the podcast, and he likes to 86 00:07:16.720 --> 00:07:25.879 say about the Solid that Solid is effectively a state management framework which happens to 87 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:30.040 update the user interface or the door, that it's almost like a side effect 88 00:07:30.040 --> 00:07:39.319 of what it is. Is your approach with the SVELT or swelt five kind 89 00:07:39.319 --> 00:07:45.839 of similar or is it more you're just leveraging signals but still very much staying 90 00:07:46.600 --> 00:07:50.920 you know, front and framework. So I think the outcome is essentially the 91 00:07:50.959 --> 00:07:56.279 same, but we are approaching it from very different directions. Ryan and I 92 00:07:58.040 --> 00:08:01.040 we have almost opposing approach, which is to a lot of a lot of 93 00:08:01.040 --> 00:08:07.120 problems. Ryan is really incredible at thinking in terms of primitives and how those 94 00:08:07.160 --> 00:08:11.399 primitives fit together, and Solid is just this really elegant example of that we 95 00:08:11.480 --> 00:08:16.720 have these primitives that represent these reactive concepts and they tie together in a really 96 00:08:16.759 --> 00:08:20.439 beautiful way. Whereas on the Spelt team, we tend to sort of work 97 00:08:20.600 --> 00:08:26.600 backwards from what we want the authoring experience to be like, and so, 98 00:08:26.040 --> 00:08:31.480 you know, we have this idea of what it should what should go into 99 00:08:31.519 --> 00:08:35.799 a web framework, like what features are involved in creating a user interface, 100 00:08:35.720 --> 00:08:41.840 and from there we work backwards to what do we need to implement for that 101 00:08:41.960 --> 00:08:46.159 to work, and they kind of meet in the middle. These two approaches 102 00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:50.840 meet in the middle, but we have these slightly different emphasies and it's actually, 103 00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:56.759 I think really healthy to have two projects like these in the same sphere 104 00:08:56.799 --> 00:09:01.519 because we can sort of bound off each other a little bit and learn from 105 00:09:01.519 --> 00:09:05.080 each other a little bit, but also give people multiple options for how they 106 00:09:05.080 --> 00:09:11.159 want to build their applications based on their preferences. I think one interesting way 107 00:09:11.240 --> 00:09:16.720 in which we have sort of converged on that idea of it being a state 108 00:09:16.759 --> 00:09:22.000 management system with you know, domb manipulation bolted on top is the previously Spelt 109 00:09:22.120 --> 00:09:28.080 was a component library essentially kind of bills the same niche as react or view 110 00:09:28.159 --> 00:09:33.720 or something like that, but we're Spelt five. We're introducing this idea of 111 00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:41.679 universal reactivity. And so whereas previously you had this sort of magical reactive behavior 112 00:09:41.799 --> 00:09:43.440 inside your components, but then as soon as you needed to write code in 113 00:09:43.480 --> 00:09:46.559 javascripts, you were sort of left out in the in the boring, old 114 00:09:46.559 --> 00:09:52.480 black and white world of normal JavaScript. With Felt five, you can take 115 00:09:52.559 --> 00:09:58.919 your reactive constructs and you can bring them into your JavaScript modules and your tuches 116 00:09:58.919 --> 00:10:05.320 withrop modules, so that we no longer have this nice, exciting reactive world 117 00:10:05.399 --> 00:10:09.639 inside components and then the world outside. It's all one thing. And we've 118 00:10:09.639 --> 00:10:16.759 done that by kind of bringing reactivity into the language itself rather than by exposing 119 00:10:16.159 --> 00:10:22.320 these primitives for people to use. So functionally, then if your writings felt 120 00:10:22.360 --> 00:10:26.399 it's Felt four versus Felt five, how is it going to feel different? 121 00:10:26.440 --> 00:10:31.480 How is it going to look different? So the most obvious example would be 122 00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:35.720 it would be how that you how you represent state in a component in s 123 00:10:35.759 --> 00:10:41.000 Felt three and four. Somewhat famously, if you have a variable that needs 124 00:10:41.039 --> 00:10:46.000 to update and you want to have your component update in response to that changing, 125 00:10:46.159 --> 00:10:48.519 then you would just declare it using let va. So you might have 126 00:10:48.639 --> 00:10:52.639 let count equals zero, and then inside a click handler you might do count 127 00:10:52.639 --> 00:10:56.080 plus equals one, So you click on a button that invokes that handler, 128 00:10:56.399 --> 00:11:00.960 and then wherever count is referenced inside your ten plate, it will update. 129 00:11:01.080 --> 00:11:07.759 And that's still true, but now instead of that just being automatically reactive, 130 00:11:07.840 --> 00:11:15.440 you do let count equals dollar, state parentheses zero. And what that is 131 00:11:15.440 --> 00:11:18.919 is an instruction to the compiler. We call it a roun that is telling 132 00:11:18.919 --> 00:11:22.399 the compiler of this piece of state right here, or this variable count is 133 00:11:22.440 --> 00:11:24.759 a reactive piece of state. It's going to be part of the reactive graph 134 00:11:24.759 --> 00:11:30.080 that you need to track, and when it updates, everything that depends on 135 00:11:30.120 --> 00:11:33.679 it is also going to need to update. So we've made things a little 136 00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:39.639 bit more explicit, and in return, you now have code that is super 137 00:11:39.639 --> 00:11:45.440 easy to refactor. It can be moved between components or outsider components, multiple 138 00:11:45.480 --> 00:11:50.480 things can reference the same reactive primitives throughout your application, and it really gives 139 00:11:50.519 --> 00:11:56.200 you a lot of flexibility and power in how you define the like which parts 140 00:11:56.240 --> 00:12:01.159 of your application are reactive and which parts are not. So when you talk 141 00:12:01.200 --> 00:12:03.639 about state, you know, I'm a primary view developer and haven't done a 142 00:12:03.639 --> 00:12:07.399 lot of Spelt. I'm thinking of, you know, view X or where 143 00:12:07.399 --> 00:12:09.759 you have a separate state you know, I think it's what does it react 144 00:12:09.840 --> 00:12:15.960 uses for state management? I forget or yeah, reducts or something like that. 145 00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:20.960 Okay, so is this am I understanding that this is as simple as 146 00:12:20.960 --> 00:12:26.279 if you declare a variable with your your ruin inside a component. Is it 147 00:12:26.320 --> 00:12:31.919 automatically available in other components without having a separate library like a redux or a 148 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:35.600 view X to manage that or how is that working? Yeah? So you 149 00:12:35.639 --> 00:12:39.360 can you just use that inside a dot spelt file, which is where you 150 00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:43.759 all feel components. You can put it inside a dot spelt dot JS file 151 00:12:43.840 --> 00:12:48.240 or dot spelt dot ts file and then you can just export that and use 152 00:12:48.279 --> 00:12:50.519 it in the context of other components. It's pretty unlikely that you would need 153 00:12:50.559 --> 00:12:56.399 a full blown state management library because it's all just kind of built in, 154 00:12:56.440 --> 00:13:00.240 and you can pass these things around as component props, and you can you 155 00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:05.759 know, pass them into functions and so on, and you know that that 156 00:13:05.919 --> 00:13:11.679 idea of state management just kind of falls out naturally from the way that the 157 00:13:11.679 --> 00:13:15.519 way that Spelt is designed. It's pretty unlikely that you're going to need to 158 00:13:15.559 --> 00:13:18.600 have a State Management library. On top of that, the one exception that 159 00:13:18.679 --> 00:13:22.919 I would maybe consider worthwhile is if you had some complicated logic that you wanted 160 00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:26.960 to model as a state machine. Like we don't have a state machine primitive 161 00:13:26.960 --> 00:13:31.159 built into the framework, but it's really easy to build those sorts of abstractions 162 00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:35.080 on top of the ruins that you get with the framework. So how do 163 00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:39.799 you handle mutability issues then? So you know, it seems to me if 164 00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:45.399 you're just you're declaring a state variable in one of your spelt dot whatever files, 165 00:13:45.480 --> 00:13:48.279 right, and then you've got it available somewhere else, maybe you mutate 166 00:13:48.279 --> 00:13:52.480 it in one place and it messes up something somewhere else Whereas you know, 167 00:13:52.519 --> 00:13:58.039 I'm used to the viewx pattern where you have state actions and where you commit 168 00:13:58.080 --> 00:14:03.399 your change. They cant believe on blanking out on it. You can control 169 00:14:03.519 --> 00:14:07.279 where the mutability happens, where the actual changes happen, so you're not accidentally 170 00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:09.360 you're mutating something somewhere else. And it seems like if you just have a 171 00:14:09.440 --> 00:14:13.120 variable okay here, it is not available over here, you could actually mutate 172 00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:16.840 it in another place and you're screwing up where you really don't want to mute, 173 00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:22.559 you know, affect your person template. Yeah, so it's up to 174 00:14:22.559 --> 00:14:28.679 you how you expose the state that you create other parts of your application. 175 00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:33.600 And there's a few ways that that manifests. If you define some state inside 176 00:14:33.639 --> 00:14:37.840 a component and you pass it down to another component as a property, then 177 00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:41.000 if that component tries to mutate that state, we will actually say, hey, 178 00:14:43.080 --> 00:14:45.360 you shouldn't be doing this. And the way that we do that is 179 00:14:45.360 --> 00:14:48.799 we have this concept of ownership validation. So if one component, say component 180 00:14:48.879 --> 00:14:52.679 A, owns a piece of state, and it passes it down to component 181 00:14:52.720 --> 00:14:56.679 B, component B then tries to mutate it, it will say component B 182 00:14:56.919 --> 00:15:01.399 is trying to mutate some state that it does not own. That state was 183 00:15:01.399 --> 00:15:05.759 created in component and if you want component B to be able to mutate it, 184 00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:09.080 because actually it's very often quite useful, like if you're building something you 185 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:13.600 want to break it up into multiple components, then it's kind of useful if 186 00:15:13.639 --> 00:15:16.159 they can all share ownership of a piece of state. And the way that 187 00:15:16.159 --> 00:15:20.159 we do that in SPELL is with bindings. Instead of just passing a property 188 00:15:20.200 --> 00:15:24.960 down to a component, you can pass it down as a binding and that 189 00:15:24.039 --> 00:15:28.879 effectively gives the child component read write access to the original piece of state. 190 00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:33.559 So that's sort of like passing something by reference, you know, like a 191 00:15:33.639 --> 00:15:37.039 PHP you talk about how you pass something whereas just you can just see it 192 00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:41.440 versus you can actually mutate it, you know, in terms of mechanics, 193 00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:43.960 no, but in terms of like conceptually, yes, that's exactly what it 194 00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:50.240 is. You're literally passing ownership of the same piece of state as opposed to 195 00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:54.799 giving someone else a read only view of it. You have to specifically declare 196 00:15:54.879 --> 00:16:00.200 that possibility on both sides. Yeah, So the component needs to say this 197 00:16:00.279 --> 00:16:04.679 is something that I want to mutate. This needs to be a bindable property, 198 00:16:06.200 --> 00:16:11.759 and then the consuming component needs to actually invoke the binding with the So 199 00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:15.720 where you pass in a proper you do bind colon count equals count instead of 200 00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:22.080 just count equals count. So here's the thing about it, and I've encountered 201 00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:27.440 it in the context of Solid, where you know, Solid is kind of 202 00:16:27.480 --> 00:16:33.039 deceptively similar to React in the way that it looks because it uses gsx and 203 00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:41.039 the syntax looks very, very similar. But then you realize that the concept 204 00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:48.600 of components in Solid is much more diluted than it is in React because in 205 00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:55.559 React, components are really self contained, and you really need to be explicit 206 00:16:55.639 --> 00:17:00.279 about how you pass stuff into them or out of them, whereas in solid 207 00:17:00.440 --> 00:17:07.279 you can share signals around or you can put signals totally external to components. 208 00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:14.160 And and therefore components just kind of become a unit of code rather than necessarily 209 00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:22.759 a unit of of of rendering or of logic. How how does where it 210 00:17:22.759 --> 00:17:27.839 does svelt kind of stand in this regard, if anything, we've taken that 211 00:17:27.880 --> 00:17:33.480 idea to its logical conclusion. So some years ago I wrote a blog post 212 00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:37.000 called virtual dom is pure overhead. Oh yeah, this is this is about 213 00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:44.440 people cry, I'm sure. Yeah, this is about trying to correct some 214 00:17:44.519 --> 00:17:48.839 misconceptions that people had about reacts rendering model and whether it was faster than the 215 00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:52.640 real arm or whatever. The details of that aren't so important. It was 216 00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:59.440 just that this X is the new overhead became sort of a a theton that 217 00:17:59.559 --> 00:18:03.680 I could like to be head with by Ryan who wrote an article called components 218 00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:07.759 are pure overhead, And so it's become this this fun little meme. I 219 00:18:07.759 --> 00:18:11.920 think there's a quick blog post somewhere called hydration is pure overhead and so on, 220 00:18:12.519 --> 00:18:17.599 and what components of pure overhead was arguing was that you know, a 221 00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:21.079 lot of frameworks, as you say, have this idea that a lot of 222 00:18:21.079 --> 00:18:26.319 the stuff lives in the component. In reaction, you don't qualifying as you 223 00:18:26.359 --> 00:18:29.519 do like React dot create component, and then you pass in the component constructor, 224 00:18:29.839 --> 00:18:33.240 and then when that component is rendered, there's all of this book keeping 225 00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:37.559 that happens, so that like all of your hooks belong together and you know, 226 00:18:37.599 --> 00:18:41.759 so on, whereas in solid it's it's a lot more kind of transparent, 227 00:18:41.079 --> 00:18:45.680 Like a component can literally just return the result of calling document dot create 228 00:18:45.720 --> 00:18:52.079 element and that's that's totally legitimate and solid. And that was, you know, 229 00:18:52.359 --> 00:18:57.640 a really smart blog post and it's spelt five. I think is probably 230 00:18:57.680 --> 00:19:03.359 the purest expression of that idea. Because in spelled vive, components are literally 231 00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:07.119 just function calls. If you have you know, angle brackets, capital left, 232 00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:11.759 foo to create a food component in your inside another component. The compiler 233 00:19:11.799 --> 00:19:18.119 takes that and it turns it into a function call whose carey is just the 234 00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:23.279 foo function and whose first argument is the anchor node that it should be prepended 235 00:19:23.319 --> 00:19:27.519 to, followed by an object of properties. And there is a little bit 236 00:19:27.559 --> 00:19:30.720 of book keeping that happens in side components, you know, we push onto 237 00:19:30.839 --> 00:19:36.799 a stack so that we can have a context API for example, and for 238 00:19:36.839 --> 00:19:40.960 some life cycle purposes, we keep track of when effects are running so that 239 00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:45.160 we can control the timing of effects because we think it's very important that things 240 00:19:45.240 --> 00:19:48.480 run in a certain predictable fashion. But there's almost no work happening when you 241 00:19:48.559 --> 00:19:52.400 create a component. And it was really Dominic Ganaway who opened my eyes to 242 00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:56.759 the power of this when he joined the team and had been working on an 243 00:19:56.799 --> 00:20:03.119 experimental framework of his own called Optane, sort of showed that if that's what 244 00:20:03.160 --> 00:20:07.319 your components are, if they are literally just function calls, then tooling can 245 00:20:07.359 --> 00:20:11.480 take that and it can inline some of those function calls, and it can 246 00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:18.880 really be smart about minimizing the overhead that is involved in composing multiple components together. 247 00:20:19.240 --> 00:20:23.119 And so, you know, Ryan was right, and we have absolutely 248 00:20:23.160 --> 00:20:27.519 no shame about stealing the best ideas from other frameworks, and that is no 249 00:20:27.559 --> 00:20:34.880 exception. So components are really just a method of organizing code rather than having 250 00:20:36.039 --> 00:20:41.839 any runtime consequences. What you're saying, if I'm understanding you correctly or hardly 251 00:20:41.880 --> 00:20:45.400 any runtime consequence that is, yeah, that is sort of the north star. 252 00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:51.440 There was the talk that you referenced earlier in this podcast, rethinking reactivity, 253 00:20:51.440 --> 00:20:55.200 had a slide in which I say frameworks are not a tool for organizing 254 00:20:55.200 --> 00:21:00.519 your code, they are a tool for organizing your mind. And I don't 255 00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:06.400 think Spelt prior to version five really lived up to that, But now I 256 00:21:06.440 --> 00:21:10.920 think we we really are. Like how you offer your components and how that 257 00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:18.359 manifests in terms of the code that gets actually executed in the browser, they 258 00:21:18.359 --> 00:21:22.279 don't need to be the same thing. You can you can optimize things by 259 00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:30.119 treating them as something other than than how you wrote them, if that makes 260 00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:34.200 sense. So, going back to the practicalities, you said that if I 261 00:21:34.279 --> 00:21:41.160 want to create a reactive value in spelled five, instead of just doing let 262 00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:47.519 counter equals zero, I do let counter equals dollar state zero. First of 263 00:21:47.519 --> 00:21:51.119 all, it's interesting that you put dollar at the front rather than at the 264 00:21:51.240 --> 00:21:56.519 end like solid and quick. I actually approve I like dollar in front because 265 00:21:56.559 --> 00:22:02.079 I think it makes it clearer you don't need to be dollar key. And 266 00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:04.200 then you see a drop down list of all of the ruins that are available 267 00:22:04.240 --> 00:22:08.680 to you. Yeah, there's that obviously. Also the fact that just when 268 00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:12.000 you read the code. It's up front. You don't need to read the 269 00:22:12.119 --> 00:22:19.519 entire word to realize that it's not, you know, just a regular function. 270 00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:25.759 And I'm guessing it even makes parsing simpler because you see dollar upfront, 271 00:22:25.799 --> 00:22:29.279 and you know you don't need to like but you know, put it aside. 272 00:22:29.640 --> 00:22:36.079 My question is actually different. What happens if I have old Spelt code 273 00:22:36.440 --> 00:22:42.039 that just has let counter equals zero. Will my counter stop being reactive? 274 00:22:42.119 --> 00:22:47.160 Will I need to do a global search and replace across my entire code base? 275 00:22:47.240 --> 00:22:49.039 What happens? This is an excellent question, and I'm very happy that 276 00:22:49.079 --> 00:22:52.519 you asked it. The answer is, it will can seem to work. 277 00:22:52.200 --> 00:22:59.000 We have spent a lot of time making sure that Spelt ve is as backwards 278 00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:02.079 compatible as it possibly can be. In fact, the first thing that we 279 00:23:02.079 --> 00:23:06.160 did when we started working on this code base was we ported over the Spelt 280 00:23:06.160 --> 00:23:10.319 for test suite. So as we've been building Spelt five, we've been building 281 00:23:10.359 --> 00:23:14.440 it against that existing test suite. So essentially there are two ways that you 282 00:23:14.440 --> 00:23:18.400 can write a Spelt component. Now, there's what we internally call legacy mode. 283 00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:22.440 I guess it would be nicer to call it classic mode or something like 284 00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:26.680 that so that people don't feel like their code is now technical debt. And 285 00:23:26.720 --> 00:23:32.079 then there is Rune's mode, and you can opt into runs mode explicitly by 286 00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:34.440 setting a compiler flag. But really the way to do it is just start 287 00:23:34.480 --> 00:23:38.839 writing runs. If you have a roune in your component, then the compiler 288 00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:44.960 will opt you into runs mode and then you'll get the new style of reactivity. 289 00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:47.279 But if you don't do that, if you have an existing component, 290 00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:49.319 or if you're using a library that was built for Spelt free and four, 291 00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:55.599 then even though the mechanics under the hood it's still signal based, it's using 292 00:23:55.640 --> 00:24:03.799 this modern ultrafast system, the authoring is exactly the same. And it's very 293 00:24:03.839 --> 00:24:08.640 important to us that people are able to migrate their applications incrementally upgrade from Swelt 294 00:24:08.680 --> 00:24:14.319 part to five. Everything should in theory keep working, and then as you 295 00:24:14.359 --> 00:24:17.799 have time, you know new components will be runs mode, and you can 296 00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:22.200 gradually migrate your own components to runs mode to take advantage of some of the 297 00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:26.200 new features. But it's a very important question, and I'm very glad that 298 00:24:26.240 --> 00:24:27.519 you gave me the opportunity to answer it. This is something that we take 299 00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:33.160 very seriously, so I now have a new role for components in Swelt. 300 00:24:33.200 --> 00:24:37.920 There are a unit of versioning of Swelt. Basically, if I'm understanding you 301 00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:41.200 correctly, you're saying, if I in my component, I had let x 302 00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:47.200 equals one and let y equals two or both of them are reactive. But 303 00:24:47.359 --> 00:24:52.759 now if I do let X change just the x, let x equals state 304 00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:57.920 a dollar state one and leave the wise it is X is still reactive. 305 00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:03.440 But why is no longer react? That's right. You need to migrate the 306 00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:07.480 entire component to runs mode, otherwise things will stop working. We plan to 307 00:25:07.559 --> 00:25:14.319 offer some automated migration tools to make that a little bit easier for folks, 308 00:25:15.319 --> 00:25:19.759 although at our current stage of development that's not our top priority. But before 309 00:25:19.759 --> 00:25:23.279 we have a stable then that will be something that we offer. So who 310 00:25:23.319 --> 00:25:26.680 is the fantasy fan that named things ruins? Is that you? Or is 311 00:25:26.680 --> 00:25:34.720 that so? I have one of one of these guys? The this is 312 00:25:34.759 --> 00:25:41.880 the the meta Quest three and on there there is a game called Ragnarok. 313 00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:47.799 Oh yes, and it is the Drumming one. So the like I'm sure 314 00:25:47.839 --> 00:25:51.400 a lot of people are familiar with games like Beat Saber, the rhythm games 315 00:25:51.400 --> 00:25:53.960 where you have sort of things flying at you and you need to either bat 316 00:25:55.000 --> 00:25:57.559 them away or punch them away, or like simulate playing some sort of musical 317 00:25:57.559 --> 00:26:03.640 instrument. The stick of Ragnarok is that you are the drummer on a Viking 318 00:26:03.720 --> 00:26:08.480 ship and you need to motivate your rowers to row faster to Valhalla by smashing 319 00:26:08.519 --> 00:26:11.160 the ruins as they come past you, and you have these drums in front 320 00:26:11.160 --> 00:26:15.119 of you. It is so I don't play a lot of video games. 321 00:26:15.119 --> 00:26:18.079 I don't. I wish I had enough time to, but I don't. 322 00:26:18.759 --> 00:26:22.559 I love this game so much. It is incredibly fun and a really good 323 00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:26.480 workout. And so one day, you know, we're thinking about what what 324 00:26:26.519 --> 00:26:30.559 can we call this concept? What is a good name for something that is 325 00:26:32.039 --> 00:26:37.240 it's sort of like it's a magical symbol. You're adding some you're invoking some 326 00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:41.480 magic within your code, and it's it's changing the nature of its surroundings. 327 00:26:44.039 --> 00:26:48.599 We want a word that is memorable that a lot of people would associate with 328 00:26:48.599 --> 00:26:56.039 with that sort of thing, ideally a single syllable, and that is what 329 00:26:56.160 --> 00:27:00.599 we settled on. And the idea very much came from this stupid game where 330 00:27:00.839 --> 00:27:03.440 you have to make your Viking rows row faster. Well, funny story. 331 00:27:03.440 --> 00:27:06.599 I mean when I think of Elf runs, I think a Lord of the 332 00:27:06.680 --> 00:27:11.440 Rings because they're mentioned quite a bit and worn runs or ruins. Yeah, 333 00:27:11.440 --> 00:27:15.920 anyway, I thought it was Elf. Anyway, the Elphins have an Elvis 334 00:27:15.960 --> 00:27:19.240 script, right, okay, or runs and Elvis scripts. Sorry I failed 335 00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:23.920 in my lot R terminology. But you talk about Ragnarok. A couple of 336 00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:30.359 years ago, my company were remote and we had a get together in Arlington 337 00:27:30.359 --> 00:27:33.680 and Washington, DC area and for a fun activity, we went to a 338 00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:37.720 place that uses the quest metaquest had said it was a whole br experience. 339 00:27:37.799 --> 00:27:41.319 This little is down in a basement and we had a couple hours to play 340 00:27:41.400 --> 00:27:44.640 games and I came out of there sweating like a pig and had a killer 341 00:27:44.680 --> 00:27:47.799 workout at the first game we played for probably a half hour, was Ragnarok, 342 00:27:48.680 --> 00:27:52.039 and so yeah, I was that was just crazy, just trying to 343 00:27:52.119 --> 00:27:56.319 keep up. There's like five different levels. You know, when the first 344 00:27:56.359 --> 00:27:57.839 level was you know, pretty straightforward. You get to level five and it's 345 00:27:57.880 --> 00:28:02.000 like, you know, drummer for a rock band is just some of the 346 00:28:02.039 --> 00:28:04.519 craziest rhythms that you have to try to keep up with, and it has 347 00:28:06.279 --> 00:28:08.000 You're on the ship and you're racing with each other, and the faster you 348 00:28:08.039 --> 00:28:11.599 go, the faster your ship goes as compared to the other people. And 349 00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:15.279 there are circles coming at you, and you have your you know, your 350 00:28:15.319 --> 00:28:19.039 actual it looks like drumsticks in the video game, and you have to hit 351 00:28:19.079 --> 00:28:22.880 on the ones with the ex or however they mark them to get the right 352 00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:25.519 rhythm. And so the more accurate you are, the better your score is, 353 00:28:25.559 --> 00:28:26.680 and the faster your ship goes. But man, it's a workout. 354 00:28:27.240 --> 00:28:30.799 It's really a ton of fun too. It's a lot of heavy rock type 355 00:28:30.920 --> 00:28:34.279 music. For sure. I actually have a son who's a professional drummer, 356 00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:37.359 so maybe he would probably do well. Yeah, he would do well with 357 00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:41.799 that. Me not so much. Does it play on the ocula or the 358 00:28:42.160 --> 00:28:45.480 ocular metic quests whatever? Does it play it on the quest too, because 359 00:28:45.519 --> 00:28:52.440 that's the one I have? Yeah, it does it does. Going back 360 00:28:52.519 --> 00:28:57.079 to spell, this was directly relevant, you know that. Yeah, So 361 00:28:57.440 --> 00:29:03.240 we spoke about one room, which is a dollar state. What are the 362 00:29:03.240 --> 00:29:10.039 other routes? So there's the three runs that form the sort of holy trinity 363 00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:15.279 of reactivity, which is state derivations and effects state creates the what are sometimes 364 00:29:15.319 --> 00:29:22.720 called the sources derived dollar derived is the second run which creates a value that 365 00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:27.680 is derived from state. So you know, obvious toy example would be you've 366 00:29:27.720 --> 00:29:33.519 got let count equals dollar state zero, let doubled equals dollar derived parentheses count 367 00:29:33.519 --> 00:29:41.640 times two. And it's a little bit different to other frameworks. If they 368 00:29:41.680 --> 00:29:45.519 have a computer primitive, then typically you'll pass in a function that returns a 369 00:29:45.599 --> 00:29:51.519 value. You can do that with a roune called derived dot buy, but 370 00:29:51.720 --> 00:29:55.799 typically you'll just use derived by itself and you pass in an expression and that 371 00:29:55.880 --> 00:30:00.799 expression becomes reactive. And we do that to discover as people from writing side 372 00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:06.279 effects inside their derivations, which is you know, bad news bears. But 373 00:30:06.359 --> 00:30:08.839 it's like a trap that people will fall into quite often. And it's also 374 00:30:08.920 --> 00:30:15.640 just like more concise and nice little look at and uh these derived To be 375 00:30:15.640 --> 00:30:18.599 a compiler, it is, it is, it absolutely is. We say 376 00:30:18.599 --> 00:30:23.200 this a lot. Every time we're weighing up different designs. We're like, 377 00:30:23.240 --> 00:30:27.160 well, what what can we do that everyone else can't because we don't have 378 00:30:27.200 --> 00:30:32.359 the same constraints And being a compiler, that's exactly true anymore. I mean, 379 00:30:32.400 --> 00:30:37.960 everybody is becoming a compiler these days. It's it's true, but a 380 00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:44.759 lot of a lot of frameworks are using compilers as kind of like an optimization 381 00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:51.720 step. But ah, you know, they're religious about not allowing the compiler 382 00:30:51.799 --> 00:30:56.880 to change the semantics of the code. Whereas we sort of take this view 383 00:30:56.920 --> 00:31:03.039 that changing this romantics of code is it's exactly what frameworks are for. Like, 384 00:31:03.119 --> 00:31:07.720 all frameworks are changing the semantics of code. You know, hooks don't 385 00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:12.359 behave like normal functions, like these sort of functions that remember what the value 386 00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:15.720 was the last time you call them. That's weird. Angela has these things 387 00:31:15.720 --> 00:31:19.359 called zones where like if you do something inside a set time out, like 388 00:31:19.880 --> 00:31:23.400 it will track the stuff that happens inside the set time out. That's weird. 389 00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:26.279 That's changing the semantics. You a view does a lot of stuff with 390 00:31:26.759 --> 00:31:32.319 property assignments because everything is a proxy. That is also kind of weird. 391 00:31:32.799 --> 00:31:36.640 And we just draw the line in a slightly different place. We say it's 392 00:31:36.799 --> 00:31:41.319 okay to change the semantics as long as we're doing it in a clearly understandable 393 00:31:41.319 --> 00:31:48.400 way that improves the authoring experience without sacrificing user experience. And so yeah, 394 00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:52.519 being a compiler just it gives us this this broader design space, and it 395 00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:57.960 gives us a slightly different mentality when when we're figuring out the best solutions to 396 00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:01.880 various problems, and so dollar arrived is it is one example, it's just 397 00:32:01.920 --> 00:32:09.720 a nicer way of declaring derivations than exists in other reactive systems. And the 398 00:32:09.759 --> 00:32:16.559 third one. The third one is the effect room, which basically just defines 399 00:32:16.599 --> 00:32:24.440 a piece of work that happens when some arbitrary dependencies change. A good example 400 00:32:24.519 --> 00:32:30.640 would be you have a canvas element and you want to draw something to that 401 00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:36.920 canvas. You can't really do that declaratively using using markup, because that's not 402 00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:39.640 how canvas works. So that is a case where you would have to use 403 00:32:40.200 --> 00:32:45.880 the escape patch of being able to write imperative code inside and effect. Anything 404 00:32:45.880 --> 00:32:47.400 that you reference inside the effect, if it's a reactive piece of state, 405 00:32:47.480 --> 00:32:53.799 then when that changes, the effect will rerun. So you know, inside 406 00:32:53.880 --> 00:33:00.480 that canvas effect you have canvas dot fill style equals color, and then color 407 00:33:00.519 --> 00:33:04.119 is a piece of state that changes, or it's a property that's passed into 408 00:33:04.119 --> 00:33:07.880 the component and that changes, then that effect will rerun. But what you 409 00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:14.319 don't have to do is explicitly tell the system which things your effect depends on. 410 00:33:14.680 --> 00:33:16.920 Because this is the beauty of signal based reactivity. It will just figure 411 00:33:16.920 --> 00:33:22.839 that out for you. That's the whole purpose. So similarly with dollar derived 412 00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:31.920 exactly. Yeah, so you basically analyze the code inside that rule, identify 413 00:33:32.480 --> 00:33:42.039 which signals it depends on, and then automatically updated execute it whenever any of 414 00:33:42.079 --> 00:33:46.480 these signals changes. Yes, so that this all happens when the application is 415 00:33:46.519 --> 00:33:50.480 running. And this is a big difference with spelt free and four and steal 416 00:33:50.559 --> 00:33:52.480 three and four. We would actually look at the code that you wrote, 417 00:33:52.720 --> 00:33:58.319 and if you had a reactive statement that contained a reference to something, for 418 00:33:58.400 --> 00:34:01.400 example, your canvas dot feel style cause color, we would look at the 419 00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:07.079 code itself and we would see that that reference to a reactive piece of state, 420 00:34:07.599 --> 00:34:13.639 and the compiler would emit code that depended specifically on that piece of state. 421 00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:16.239 But that doesn't scale very well because if you want to take some part 422 00:34:16.239 --> 00:34:21.199 of that code and refractor it out into a helper function, then you're sort 423 00:34:21.199 --> 00:34:23.760 of out of luck because the compiler can no longer see it. And so 424 00:34:23.800 --> 00:34:30.400 the big difference was spelt five is we're relying on the reactive dependency graph to 425 00:34:30.480 --> 00:34:35.599 figure that out at run time, and that turns out to be a lot 426 00:34:35.639 --> 00:34:39.519 more scalable, a lot more efficient. Not quite as cool, honestly, 427 00:34:39.719 --> 00:34:44.159 like, there's something a little bit fun about using static analysis for this stuff. 428 00:34:44.199 --> 00:34:46.920 But it turns out that there are enough cases where that model falls apart 429 00:34:47.239 --> 00:34:52.079 the signal based approach is the right one. Interesting. So in a lot 430 00:34:52.079 --> 00:34:59.119 of ways, even though you're very much still a compiler base, they're actually 431 00:34:59.239 --> 00:35:05.320 much close to JavaScript than you previously were in certain ways. We are, 432 00:35:05.519 --> 00:35:12.760 yes, we are still take in this compiler centric mindset, but I think 433 00:35:12.760 --> 00:35:15.920 we're using it in a slightly more responsible way than maybe we did in the 434 00:35:15.920 --> 00:35:21.840 past. But yes, we will. I have to say that previously this 435 00:35:22.119 --> 00:35:28.519 was one of my hang ups about Sevelt. That I know that you put 436 00:35:28.559 --> 00:35:31.719 it in a cevelt file, which really highlights the fact that this is not 437 00:35:31.800 --> 00:35:37.159 just a regular JavaScript file or a typescript file. But in certain ways, 438 00:35:37.239 --> 00:35:44.639 I used to say that Sevelt was deceptively like JavaScript in terms of syntax, 439 00:35:44.719 --> 00:35:51.760 but very different in terms of semantics, and that that's a problem and at 440 00:35:51.800 --> 00:35:57.719 least in my opinion, And I really like the fact that you're able now 441 00:35:57.840 --> 00:36:04.519 to kind of to create the extend to eliminate this semantic disconnect that existed before. 442 00:36:05.920 --> 00:36:08.360 Yeah, and it means that we don't have to have two separate approaches 443 00:36:08.360 --> 00:36:13.639 to reactivity. Previously, we had let count equals zero inside your component. 444 00:36:13.800 --> 00:36:16.079 But then if you wanted to have some piece of reactive state that we shared 445 00:36:16.119 --> 00:36:21.400 between components, you couldn't then do that. You had to use something that 446 00:36:21.400 --> 00:36:24.199 we called a store. Stores still exist in Spelt five, but they are 447 00:36:24.239 --> 00:36:30.320 sort of de emphasized because now you can create reactive state anywhere in your application, 448 00:36:30.360 --> 00:36:32.880 and you can share it between components very easily, and so everything is 449 00:36:32.960 --> 00:36:37.559 just a lot more unified than it ever has been before. But it still 450 00:36:37.639 --> 00:36:42.760 leads to be inside svelled files. I mean, I can't just use one 451 00:36:42.800 --> 00:36:45.880 of them inside of a regular JavaScript file because then the compiler won't see it, 452 00:36:46.400 --> 00:36:52.760 require my misunderstanding. Right. So, because we are essentially changing the 453 00:36:52.840 --> 00:36:59.119 language, we are adding something to the language, we took the decision to 454 00:36:59.320 --> 00:37:04.119 only do that inside dot spelt dot JS and dot spelt dot t S files. 455 00:37:04.360 --> 00:37:07.880 So you still have the entirety of you know, everything that works with 456 00:37:07.960 --> 00:37:12.280 job scripts and types with it, like all of the tooling works as you 457 00:37:12.280 --> 00:37:15.599 would expect, and these are just normal modules, so you can import things, 458 00:37:15.960 --> 00:37:17.400 you can share things between them as you would with any other module. 459 00:37:19.519 --> 00:37:23.679 But the spelt language extensions will only apply to those dot sell dot s files. 460 00:37:23.800 --> 00:37:29.599 But it gives you a place to put that shareable logic. So as 461 00:37:29.599 --> 00:37:35.079 opposed to previously in the past, a dot svelt file would always be a 462 00:37:35.119 --> 00:37:38.880 component file by definition, and now prom my understanding, it could be a 463 00:37:39.039 --> 00:37:45.480 utility file containing you know, just ruine declarations or helper functions or stuff like 464 00:37:45.519 --> 00:37:51.519 that that just need to undergo the compilation step in order to work with the 465 00:37:51.599 --> 00:37:58.239 rooms exactly. Yeah, that's really cool. I really like that. Yeah, 466 00:37:58.280 --> 00:38:01.840 for a while, we considered just doing it for every file in your 467 00:38:01.880 --> 00:38:07.239 code base, but we decided that that was a little bit irresponsible. Firstly, 468 00:38:07.639 --> 00:38:10.360 it's going to mean that the compiler has to look at a lot more 469 00:38:10.400 --> 00:38:14.559 files, and it means that in any case of ambiguity, we're a little 470 00:38:14.599 --> 00:38:21.320 bit stuck. But it also means that we're sort of squatting on on this 471 00:38:21.679 --> 00:38:24.239 room name space. And if other frameworks were to come along and say, 472 00:38:24.239 --> 00:38:27.480 hey, you know what, that's actually a pretty cool idea. We want 473 00:38:27.480 --> 00:38:30.039 to do some version of it ourselves, Well, that would be really difficult. 474 00:38:30.079 --> 00:38:32.960 But you know, if in the future, say Preact wants to do 475 00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:37.119 some version of this, then you could do dot Preact dot js and they 476 00:38:37.159 --> 00:38:43.280 could have their own runic name space inside their own code. So it's mostly 477 00:38:43.280 --> 00:38:47.360 out of kind of being trying to be a good citizen, but also some 478 00:38:47.480 --> 00:38:57.360 obviously practical considerations of are you thinking about maybe trying to standardize or even spect 479 00:38:57.400 --> 00:39:06.400 the run signature so different implementations might be interoperable. We have not because we're 480 00:39:06.440 --> 00:39:10.840 still in this kind of exploratory phase where we're figuring out what needs to be 481 00:39:10.880 --> 00:39:17.280 a room and what is potentially just a function that you can import from the 482 00:39:17.320 --> 00:39:24.159 library. And I think it makes sense to start with a working implementation and 483 00:39:24.239 --> 00:39:29.639 then see what happens in the wild, see if it makes sense to collaborate 484 00:39:29.639 --> 00:39:34.480 with other frameworks on something that is a little bit more standards flavored. It's 485 00:39:34.519 --> 00:39:38.960 interesting that at the moment we're having this conversation the day after the signals proposal 486 00:39:39.079 --> 00:39:44.320 was made public. So for the last several months a team has been working 487 00:39:44.320 --> 00:39:49.800 across framework team has been working on designing a signal primitive that will exist in 488 00:39:49.840 --> 00:39:55.360 the language itself, and that was released yesterday. So it has a concept 489 00:39:55.440 --> 00:39:59.920 of there's analogist to our dollar state, and it has a concept that's analogist 490 00:39:59.920 --> 00:40:04.119 to hour dollar derived. And then on top of those two things, you 491 00:40:04.159 --> 00:40:08.880 can build effects and all of these other things. And the idea is that 492 00:40:09.239 --> 00:40:13.920 all of these different frameworks are doing their own signal implementations. Wouldn't it be 493 00:40:13.960 --> 00:40:20.039 great if a there was interoperability between the frameworks. You know, if I 494 00:40:20.119 --> 00:40:22.920 had a library that was emitting some sort of signal, then it could be 495 00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:30.800 used in all of these frameworks. And b potentially these frameworks could get rid 496 00:40:30.840 --> 00:40:34.400 of some of their own runtime code in favor of just using the platform. 497 00:40:35.760 --> 00:40:38.440 And so there's these two things. Does the mechanics of signals themselves and having 498 00:40:38.519 --> 00:40:44.119 that primitive in the language, and then there's the like how do you reference 499 00:40:44.159 --> 00:40:49.199 them in your code? And what we're focusing on is like this idea that 500 00:40:50.840 --> 00:40:54.079 that signals should be essentially a part of the language, not just a primitive 501 00:40:54.119 --> 00:40:58.440 that you interact with like any other object. It's a part of the language 502 00:40:58.519 --> 00:41:01.679 because reactivity is so fun mental to the task of describing a user interface that 503 00:41:01.760 --> 00:41:06.920 it deserves to be a language level concept, and so that those two things, 504 00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:12.960 I think are like separate but parallel conversations that are worth having. So 505 00:41:13.519 --> 00:41:16.519 you keep saying, like the language and the platform, right, And I 506 00:41:16.559 --> 00:41:21.920 think when I talk to people about Spelt usually they're just kind of referring to 507 00:41:21.960 --> 00:41:25.360 it as a framework. Can you kind of explain the different concepts here, 508 00:41:27.880 --> 00:41:31.880 Yeah, it's difficult because Spelt sort of spans a lot of different categories and 509 00:41:31.960 --> 00:41:37.840 it's not it's not a traditional UI library, and in the manner of what 510 00:41:37.960 --> 00:41:43.800 came before, it is a compiler, but it is also a language. 511 00:41:43.800 --> 00:41:46.880 It's a super set of HTML. Compiler takes that language and it compiles it 512 00:41:46.920 --> 00:41:53.960 down to JavaScript. That JavaScript imports code from the Spelt runtime library. That's 513 00:41:54.000 --> 00:41:59.320 how it it, you know, does it's, it's it's updating, and 514 00:41:59.360 --> 00:42:02.440 it's it's rendering and everything. And then on top of that, we have 515 00:42:02.480 --> 00:42:07.159 an application framework called spelt Kit. And the boundaries of all of these things 516 00:42:07.159 --> 00:42:09.840 are a little bit fuzzy. When I talk about the language, what I 517 00:42:09.960 --> 00:42:16.960 essentially mean is in the same way that you have things in the language like 518 00:42:17.039 --> 00:42:22.199 dynamic import looks like a function, but it's not a function. Wouldn't it 519 00:42:22.239 --> 00:42:28.119 be great if there was something akin to that that described reactive values and that's 520 00:42:28.159 --> 00:42:32.960 what we're trying to do with runs. Okay, the other question I have 521 00:42:34.119 --> 00:42:39.159 is it seems like a lot of this is focused around sort of developer ergonomics 522 00:42:39.199 --> 00:42:45.400 and you know, a good developer experience. And I guess you probably won't 523 00:42:45.440 --> 00:42:50.920 know completely the answer to this question, but when people are talking about web 524 00:42:50.960 --> 00:42:55.800 applications, they're also then talking about performance and you know how well it works 525 00:42:55.840 --> 00:43:00.320 in scales and things like that. You know, can I have you know, 526 00:43:00.679 --> 00:43:06.280 fifteen signals or eighty signals or two million signals? You know, how 527 00:43:06.360 --> 00:43:09.880 do the ruins play into all of this as far as you know the capabilities 528 00:43:09.880 --> 00:43:15.280 of the application, but also you know how it's going to perform if I 529 00:43:15.360 --> 00:43:22.079 go and build out some application on it. The performance, honestly is breathtaking. 530 00:43:22.039 --> 00:43:25.440 There is a framework that's very widely recognize, the JASS Framework Benchmark, 531 00:43:25.480 --> 00:43:32.079 which is a really good sanity check for how well your framework does, and 532 00:43:34.639 --> 00:43:38.440 it fluctuates a little bit as we add and remove things. But spelt is 533 00:43:39.679 --> 00:43:45.079 it's basically the fast Felt five is basically the fastest mainstream framework. There's like 534 00:43:45.239 --> 00:43:49.679 a couple of other like very small ones that are very very focused on on 535 00:43:49.920 --> 00:43:52.840 the sorts of tasks that this benchmark tests for. But you know, SPELL 536 00:43:52.920 --> 00:43:58.239 five, it looks like it's probably going to be a little faster than Solid, 537 00:43:58.239 --> 00:44:00.920 which is sort of the gold standard for this thing. Okay, and 538 00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:07.000 you know publicism is that sorry go ahead, no, and oh go on, 539 00:44:07.159 --> 00:44:08.880 you were saying, part of the reason for that, I'm really interested. 540 00:44:10.079 --> 00:44:15.679 Well, again, because we're a compiler, we have luxuries that other 541 00:44:15.760 --> 00:44:19.159 frameworks don't. So you know, for example, in Solid, if you 542 00:44:19.239 --> 00:44:23.440 create a signal and a function that updates that signal, you're creating a pair 543 00:44:23.480 --> 00:44:30.960 of closures, and closures aren't expensive, but they're also not free. And 544 00:44:30.039 --> 00:44:36.719 Spell when you create a source signal, it's just a very simple object. 545 00:44:36.840 --> 00:44:39.280 And when you read that signal, and when you write that signal, you're 546 00:44:39.400 --> 00:44:45.320 using these get and set functions which are shared by all of these sources. 547 00:44:45.679 --> 00:44:52.519 So that's just like one small example of how having the ability to transform your 548 00:44:52.719 --> 00:44:59.480 code allows us to use a slightly more efficient way of reading and writing state 549 00:44:59.599 --> 00:45:04.960 without any ergonomic compromises. You know what this kind of reminds me of. 550 00:45:05.320 --> 00:45:10.800 I'm old enough to remember compilers for languages like C and C plus plus, 551 00:45:12.440 --> 00:45:16.679 and back in the day we are usually for these compilers we had a developer 552 00:45:16.719 --> 00:45:23.960 mode and release mode, where in the developer mode it optimized for compilation time, 553 00:45:24.599 --> 00:45:30.519 whereas in you know, release mode or production mode, it optimized for 554 00:45:30.800 --> 00:45:37.000 execution time, so it would run the compiler much longer, but generate much 555 00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:42.159 more optimized code. And I'm starting to think that that might start being relevant 556 00:45:42.920 --> 00:45:45.800 for you know, some of the stuff that you're doing that maybe during development 557 00:45:45.960 --> 00:45:52.320 you might you know, be willing to generate less optimal code but just compile 558 00:45:52.360 --> 00:45:55.880 as quickly as possible so that the development environment would be nice and friendly. 559 00:45:57.440 --> 00:46:02.079 But then you know, in a release mode you could theoretically like do really 560 00:46:02.159 --> 00:46:08.480 significant compilation, maybe even looking across components and stuff like that one hundred percent 561 00:46:08.480 --> 00:46:13.519 of the case. So we already do a lot of developer time checks. 562 00:46:15.039 --> 00:46:17.360 So earlier I talked about the ownership validation, you know, the mutates state 563 00:46:17.400 --> 00:46:21.320 owned by A then spelt will yell at you, well, we actually only 564 00:46:21.360 --> 00:46:24.119 do that in development, because in production that's just overhead which no one is 565 00:46:24.880 --> 00:46:30.119 really going to benefit from. And so there are certainly cases where we do 566 00:46:30.159 --> 00:46:34.639 the slightly slow but more helpful thing in development mode. But the kinds of 567 00:46:34.639 --> 00:46:39.360 things that you're talking about, like cross component analysis is very much where we 568 00:46:39.400 --> 00:46:45.000 want to take a lot of these ideas. We actually had some experimentation early 569 00:46:45.039 --> 00:46:49.480 on Dominic. It had like a whole trench of work that was looking at 570 00:46:49.599 --> 00:46:53.599 this exact thing, but it was difficult to keep up to date with the 571 00:46:53.599 --> 00:46:58.199 rest of the framework when it was all so very much in flux. But 572 00:46:58.280 --> 00:47:02.239 that is something that we're at the bit to revisit once Spelt five goes stable. 573 00:47:02.519 --> 00:47:07.679 We think there's huge upside here. Yeah. Well, premature optimization is 574 00:47:07.679 --> 00:47:15.760 the root of all evil, you know, son he is. So it's 575 00:47:15.880 --> 00:47:20.679 interesting though again I kind of mentioned it before, but you know, so 576 00:47:20.760 --> 00:47:27.039 obviously you were probably maybe I wouldn't say that you were necessarily the first framework 577 00:47:27.119 --> 00:47:31.000 to use a compiler. I wouldn't be surprised if that's Marco, because Marco 578 00:47:31.119 --> 00:47:36.679 is at first that everything turns out. But you were certainly, I think, 579 00:47:36.719 --> 00:47:40.760 the first one to really promote it in popularize it. But now it 580 00:47:40.880 --> 00:47:45.920 seems like, as I said before, that all frameworks are kind of to 581 00:47:45.960 --> 00:47:53.960 a lesser greater degree embracing compilers. Even React with React forget is embracing compilers. 582 00:47:54.320 --> 00:48:00.840 So how do you see the different compiler the different approaches in this context, 583 00:48:00.920 --> 00:48:07.840 or all of the frameworks effectively converging on the same place. It's a 584 00:48:07.840 --> 00:48:10.519 great question. There's definitely been a lot of convergence just in general in the 585 00:48:10.559 --> 00:48:15.760 space over the last few years. And what I think tends to happen is 586 00:48:15.760 --> 00:48:19.440 there's there's sort of compression as everyone converged on the same ideas, followed by 587 00:48:19.480 --> 00:48:22.480 a period of innovation in which people sort of go off. And you know 588 00:48:22.519 --> 00:48:27.400 now that we've centralized on a course set of ideas, like how do we 589 00:48:27.440 --> 00:48:32.039 differentiate ourselves from one another? And I think we're probably entering into that period 590 00:48:32.599 --> 00:48:38.840 right now when we start to see, you know what, what our different 591 00:48:38.880 --> 00:48:45.840 foundations allow us to do differently, and for us, the kinds of things 592 00:48:45.880 --> 00:48:52.280 that we're thinking about are you know, as everyone else is thinking about a 593 00:48:52.320 --> 00:48:55.719 server first mentality, like everyone is sort of retreating from client side javascripts in 594 00:48:55.800 --> 00:49:00.440 general, we're thinking, well, you know a lot of people still want 595 00:49:00.440 --> 00:49:05.800 to build these richly interactive client side applications, and yes, it's very essential 596 00:49:05.840 --> 00:49:09.920 that you have really tight integration with a back end, like, no one's 597 00:49:09.960 --> 00:49:15.639 disputing the importance of progressive enhancement and service sign rendering and all of these other 598 00:49:15.679 --> 00:49:19.760 things. But at the same time, are we forgetting that there is a 599 00:49:19.840 --> 00:49:25.559 place for local first thinking and for you know, on device computation thinking and 600 00:49:25.599 --> 00:49:30.159 all of these other things that some frameworks candidly are starting to deprioritize in a 601 00:49:30.159 --> 00:49:35.599 way that worries me a little bit. So no spelled server components in the 602 00:49:35.639 --> 00:49:43.400 near future. We do not have a plan right now to make spelt server 603 00:49:43.480 --> 00:49:52.400 components. So rsses are obviously this fascinating, brilliant idea, and they've sort 604 00:49:52.440 --> 00:49:55.239 of shaken up how everyone thinks about a lot of things. Yet again, 605 00:49:55.360 --> 00:49:59.239 because you know, this is what the reacting does, they'll sort of sit 606 00:49:59.320 --> 00:50:04.079 quietly three years and then just blow everyone's minds with some new radical innovation. 607 00:50:04.960 --> 00:50:08.440 But to my mind, there are the good parts of reacts server components, 608 00:50:08.480 --> 00:50:14.000 and there are the bad parts of React server components. And I think a 609 00:50:14.000 --> 00:50:19.480 lot of the proponents of r scs would probably say that the good parts are 610 00:50:19.480 --> 00:50:22.840 different, But in my experience, just seeing people struggle with the concept, 611 00:50:23.320 --> 00:50:27.880 I would say the good parts of reacts over components are the ability to do 612 00:50:27.920 --> 00:50:30.760 asynchronous data loading. You know, the fact that you can have acyn components 613 00:50:30.880 --> 00:50:36.360 and that just sort of works is very cool. But the bad parts are 614 00:50:36.440 --> 00:50:39.760 the idea that you have these these two separate things running in two separate environments 615 00:50:39.760 --> 00:50:45.000 and the ways that you can combine them the subject to certain constraints, and 616 00:50:45.119 --> 00:50:46.400 like the things that you can use in one environment that you can't use in 617 00:50:46.440 --> 00:50:51.400 another environment is like super hard for a lot of people who don't do this 618 00:50:51.559 --> 00:50:53.480 day and day out all the time to get their heads around. And so, 619 00:50:53.599 --> 00:50:57.039 you know, the kinds of things that we're thinking about are can we 620 00:50:57.199 --> 00:51:02.880 have the benefits of this asynchronic state loading approach, Like can we have a 621 00:51:02.920 --> 00:51:09.119 weight in components in a way that is really orchestrable and and and and and 622 00:51:09.199 --> 00:51:16.199 makes sense from the point of hydration throughout the application life cycle without any of 623 00:51:16.559 --> 00:51:23.079 those sort of offering drawbacks and the confusion that arises from having these two worlds 624 00:51:23.119 --> 00:51:28.079 sort of interleaved like that. And you know, we we have some we 625 00:51:28.119 --> 00:51:30.679 have some ideas, but a lot of it is unfortunately going to have to 626 00:51:30.719 --> 00:51:35.519 wait until after we ship spelt five point oh, because otherwise otherwise we'll never 627 00:51:35.519 --> 00:51:39.199 ships spelt five point zero, so no so for speled five point zher no 628 00:51:39.400 --> 00:51:47.239 innovations associated with hydration. Uh So, our our approach to hydration is it's 629 00:51:47.440 --> 00:51:54.400 pretty efficient. It's it's certainly faster than it was in spelt for because we 630 00:51:54.480 --> 00:52:01.159 have decided that it's acceptable to assume the structure of your application on the client 631 00:52:01.199 --> 00:52:05.880 side is the same as it was on the service side, like you're rendering 632 00:52:05.920 --> 00:52:10.760 the same components, and so as soon as you have that constraint as part 633 00:52:10.800 --> 00:52:14.880 of your model, you can make your hydration a lot faster than if you 634 00:52:15.119 --> 00:52:21.760 try to like gracefully repair every piece of slightly mouthformed done that you encounter. 635 00:52:22.840 --> 00:52:27.159 So right out of the gate, hydration is really fast and spelt five. 636 00:52:28.119 --> 00:52:30.679 Because we're a compiler, we're able to do things that might be a little 637 00:52:30.719 --> 00:52:34.719 bit trickier if you're using say JSX, we can do you know, if 638 00:52:34.719 --> 00:52:38.280 you have I don't know, and if browser block and then you have some 639 00:52:38.440 --> 00:52:42.360 code in there, and then in the else bit you have some other code. 640 00:52:43.800 --> 00:52:45.079 A lot of hydration algorithms will choke on that. They'll be like, 641 00:52:45.159 --> 00:52:49.559 hey, we've got a mismatch here. We might need to throw away some 642 00:52:49.639 --> 00:52:52.159 work and start again. Well, Spelt handles that just fine because the compiler 643 00:52:52.199 --> 00:52:55.519 can can just drop in a little annotation that the run time then knows how 644 00:52:55.559 --> 00:53:00.280 to deal with. So I wouldn't say there are a hug genovations around hydration. 645 00:53:00.559 --> 00:53:05.519 But it's fast, and it's reliable, and it's it's flexible, it's 646 00:53:05.880 --> 00:53:09.239 robust to things changing between the server render and the client render. Yeah, 647 00:53:09.239 --> 00:53:17.320 but you're not trying to avoid let's say, sending down certain code. You're 648 00:53:17.360 --> 00:53:23.239 basically just saying my code is smaller because it's it's generated by compiler. But 649 00:53:23.400 --> 00:53:30.039 I'm going to download the code for for components for client for components because they 650 00:53:30.119 --> 00:53:32.920 might be re rendered on the client. Yeah, because it's a waste of 651 00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:37.880 time. Honestly, there's I know a lot of focus is paid to the 652 00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:43.719 cost of hydrating and application, and that is not where the problem is. 653 00:53:43.719 --> 00:53:51.280 That is not why the performance of websites is sometimes not great. I mean, 654 00:53:51.320 --> 00:53:52.679 it might be if you have like a really slow framework that is slow 655 00:53:52.719 --> 00:54:00.760 to hydrate, but generally speaking, the problems lie elsewhere. And so I 656 00:54:00.800 --> 00:54:05.559 know that there are some frameworks whose whole deal is avoiding hydration cost quick but 657 00:54:06.239 --> 00:54:08.079 I was going to say, you should talk to me because he tells a 658 00:54:08.119 --> 00:54:13.079 little bit different story. Yeah, I mean, of course he does, 659 00:54:13.119 --> 00:54:17.039 because that's like, that's why that framework exists. But you know, every 660 00:54:17.079 --> 00:54:22.199 time we profile SPELT sites that we see in the wild, the problems are 661 00:54:22.239 --> 00:54:25.519 things like, well, they've disabled SSR, so they have a waterfall and 662 00:54:25.519 --> 00:54:30.559 they disabled SSR because of some business requirement, or it's because they've got big 663 00:54:30.599 --> 00:54:34.639 images and we didn't do a good enough job of providing them with the tools 664 00:54:34.679 --> 00:54:38.800 to make sure that images are tightly optimized. It's pretty rare. The hydration 665 00:54:39.199 --> 00:54:45.320 moves the needle in our experience, and so our position is make it as 666 00:54:45.360 --> 00:54:50.639 fast as possible. If there are opportunities to skip hydration in some cases, 667 00:54:50.719 --> 00:54:53.119 then take them. And there are some places where we do that in Spelt 668 00:54:53.159 --> 00:54:57.119 five, like if we have a big blob of HML from a markdown post 669 00:54:57.199 --> 00:55:00.719 or something like that. Just assume that it was the same between Severn client 670 00:55:00.760 --> 00:55:05.039 render. But by and large, I don't worry about it. It's not 671 00:55:05.079 --> 00:55:07.960 where the problems lie. You were also, as I recall, one of 672 00:55:08.000 --> 00:55:14.480 the first frameworks, if not the first, to introduce the concept of progressive 673 00:55:14.840 --> 00:55:21.519 enhancement as related to hydration or am I mistaken? So I mean we've been 674 00:55:21.559 --> 00:55:27.079 on the progressive enhancement bandwagon for some time now. I think the first release 675 00:55:27.199 --> 00:55:31.000 of spelt Kit's predecessor, SAPA was in twenty seventeen and the twenty seventeen and 676 00:55:31.559 --> 00:55:36.360 you know, we launched with service side rendering, but I wouldn't say that 677 00:55:36.400 --> 00:55:40.559 we were the first people to do that. We were essentially copying Next and 678 00:55:40.760 --> 00:55:46.119 Next and even they were copying other prior up Remix was maybe one of the 679 00:55:46.159 --> 00:55:52.280 first. No No Remix was actually pretty late to the game. Oh yeah, 680 00:55:52.440 --> 00:55:55.480 because it was a big thing with Remix, as I recall, like 681 00:55:55.599 --> 00:56:01.239 their first demo where they showed everything effectively running to police server side without anybody 682 00:56:01.320 --> 00:56:06.840 noticing, or something along these lines. Maybe it's worthwhile to quickly explain, 683 00:56:07.000 --> 00:56:09.760 like this is not the point of this podcast, but maybe it's worthwhile to 684 00:56:09.800 --> 00:56:15.559 really quickly explain what progressive enhancement means in this context. Yeah, I mean, 685 00:56:15.559 --> 00:56:19.239 it's possible that we're even talking slightly past each other by using it to 686 00:56:19.320 --> 00:56:22.960 mean different things. But essentially the idea of progressive enhancement is or take the 687 00:56:22.960 --> 00:56:30.719 analogy of an escalator when it's running. When the electricity is on the escalator, 688 00:56:30.760 --> 00:56:32.519 you stand on it and it takes you to the top or it takes 689 00:56:32.519 --> 00:56:37.719 to the bottom. But if the electricity fails, or if there's a mechanical 690 00:56:37.719 --> 00:56:42.599 failure or something, it becomes a staircase and you can still use it. 691 00:56:43.320 --> 00:56:47.440 So we say, yeah, so the escalator is progressively enhanced from a staircase. 692 00:56:47.440 --> 00:56:52.079 You can still use it, but it's just nicer if you have the 693 00:56:52.119 --> 00:56:55.679 things running as as you're using them. And in the context of a website, 694 00:56:55.719 --> 00:57:01.599 what that means is that if you have a page that doesn't have JavaScript 695 00:57:01.679 --> 00:57:06.920 for whatever reason, maybe you're on the subway and the JavaScript failed to load 696 00:57:06.960 --> 00:57:12.000 before you lost connectivity, or maybe you're on a browser that doesn't support some 697 00:57:12.079 --> 00:57:15.480 new JavaScript feature that is being used by that website, or one of the 698 00:57:15.920 --> 00:57:20.760 hundred possible reasons why someone might not be running JavaScript, that website should continue 699 00:57:20.760 --> 00:57:23.719 to work. And that means that links should still take you to their destination. 700 00:57:23.880 --> 00:57:27.239 It means that you should still be able to interact with form elements. 701 00:57:27.320 --> 00:57:30.519 It means that you should be able to submit a form and send data back 702 00:57:30.519 --> 00:57:36.000 to the server. And it's that latter part where Remix added some innovation. 703 00:57:37.360 --> 00:57:43.320 They really prioritized form submissions in a way that other frameworks had kind of said, 704 00:57:43.880 --> 00:57:47.119 you know, this is a problem that is solvable in Newserland, whereas 705 00:57:47.199 --> 00:57:51.079 Remix said, no, no, we're going to make this like a core 706 00:57:51.119 --> 00:57:53.280 part of the framework's offering. And that was a very welcome change. Like 707 00:57:53.480 --> 00:58:00.039 other frameworks certainly sat up and took notice and started doing the same thing progressive 708 00:58:00.079 --> 00:58:04.679 enhancement. More broadly, this idea that if you have a website it should 709 00:58:04.719 --> 00:58:09.280 work without jobs is something that I think frameworks have been prioritizing for many, 710 00:58:09.280 --> 00:58:15.960 many years at this point. Oh and there was one more thing I wanted 711 00:58:15.960 --> 00:58:21.440 to ask. Oh yeah, one of my last questions. A lot of 712 00:58:21.480 --> 00:58:24.679 frameworks, it seems to me, are kind of embracing in certain ways in 713 00:58:24.800 --> 00:58:31.280 very different ways. Concept of RPC as a means of communicating between the front 714 00:58:31.320 --> 00:58:36.039 and the back end. Now this is more a meta framework question than a 715 00:58:36.079 --> 00:58:40.920 framework question, but basically it means that you invoke code on the server side 716 00:58:40.960 --> 00:58:45.599 in a way that's kind of that looks semantically like calling a function. Is 717 00:58:45.639 --> 00:58:51.360 that something that you're also looking at, or thinking about or considering. I 718 00:58:51.360 --> 00:58:58.400 have some real qualms about RPC as it's being implemented by by frameworks today. 719 00:58:59.239 --> 00:59:04.159 I think there is a real value and at least having to switch between different 720 00:59:04.199 --> 00:59:08.440 files if you're crossing a network boundary. There are too many ways in which 721 00:59:08.599 --> 00:59:13.039 it can go wrong. If you have some code that access a database directly 722 00:59:13.119 --> 00:59:16.400 and you just put that inside some code that is running on the front end, 723 00:59:16.800 --> 00:59:20.599 then even though the compiler is going to get rid of it, you 724 00:59:20.639 --> 00:59:25.599 know there is a non zero chance that you are going to have some sensitive 725 00:59:25.639 --> 00:59:32.159 information in a source map or something like that. And in general, any 726 00:59:32.239 --> 00:59:37.800 type safety that you get across the network boundary is fictional, and I don't 727 00:59:37.840 --> 00:59:43.400 think that these RPC systems give you as much type safety as they as they 728 00:59:43.440 --> 00:59:49.480 purport to. So all typescript type safety is effectively fictional because it's all it 729 00:59:49.559 --> 00:59:52.960 never happens at rue time, and so in a lot of ways it's no 730 00:59:53.119 --> 01:00:00.400 different than whatever other type safety you get from typescript. But it's really funny 731 01:00:00.400 --> 01:00:05.239 because we actually had Sam Salukov on one of the episodes talking exactly about the 732 01:00:05.320 --> 01:00:10.000 scenario just described, because he's the one that did that presentation with a slide 733 01:00:10.000 --> 01:00:16.199 that became a meme about the terrific presentation. Yes, it was embedding some 734 01:00:16.440 --> 01:00:22.360 SQL in line inside the React component, which was yeah, a lot of 735 01:00:22.440 --> 01:00:30.400 people didn't like that. Yes, a lot of people were on one of 736 01:00:30.480 --> 01:00:34.159 two sides of that screenshot. There were the people who were like, oh 737 01:00:34.199 --> 01:00:37.559 my god, this is a giant security hold because they didn't understand that the 738 01:00:37.599 --> 01:00:42.760 sequel in that screen shop was being escaped by the library. And then there 739 01:00:42.760 --> 01:00:45.400 were all of these other people on the other side of the spectrum being you 740 01:00:45.519 --> 01:00:49.199 idiots, it's being escaped, there's no problem here. But the reality is, 741 01:00:49.559 --> 01:00:52.559 yes, that code was being escaped, but it would be so easy 742 01:00:52.599 --> 01:00:57.559 for someone to write a sequel querid that was not being escaped, and by 743 01:00:57.639 --> 01:01:02.280 creating these arbitrary mini end points throughout your application and just like exposing this massive 744 01:01:02.320 --> 01:01:08.599 surface area to you know, to would be evildoers. I think there is 745 01:01:10.000 --> 01:01:15.679 you know, there are some security questions that arise from this way of thinking 746 01:01:15.719 --> 01:01:19.079 about things, and like, look, smart people are thinking about all of 747 01:01:19.119 --> 01:01:22.000 these things, and I don't expect that we're about to experience, you know, 748 01:01:22.320 --> 01:01:30.039 a security apocalypse of RPC causing like all manner of new attacks. But 749 01:01:30.440 --> 01:01:36.320 I do think that just at a conceptual level, as you're writing the code, 750 01:01:36.719 --> 01:01:40.400 it's much easier to understand what's happening if there is a just a tiny 751 01:01:40.400 --> 01:01:45.440 bit of friction between what's happening in the client side and what's happening on the 752 01:01:45.440 --> 01:01:49.519 server side. And for me, like a file boundary is a good place 753 01:01:49.519 --> 01:01:54.440 to express that distinction. In the context of a VT application and spelt get 754 01:01:54.440 --> 01:01:59.840 applications of VAT applications, you can use something like telefunk, which will allow 755 01:01:59.880 --> 01:02:07.960 you to do our PC by importing quote unquote a function from a service side 756 01:02:07.039 --> 01:02:15.920 module and in the client that is essentially, you know, an RPC interface 757 01:02:15.400 --> 01:02:20.400 which allows you to call that function on and stuff, but it's not inside 758 01:02:20.599 --> 01:02:25.159 the same file that is running client side. And this is you know, 759 01:02:25.199 --> 01:02:29.480 maybe a matter of preference. And maybe I'm being overly paranoid about this sort 760 01:02:29.519 --> 01:02:36.760 of thing, but I think there's too much Your scientists are so preoccupied with 761 01:02:36.840 --> 01:02:39.360 whether or not they could they didn't think about whether or not they're not they 762 01:02:39.400 --> 01:02:45.800 should. Everyone's trying to be the like the slickest and most convenient thing, 763 01:02:46.519 --> 01:02:51.880 and sometimes that's right. I mean, I s felt certainly tries to be 764 01:02:51.880 --> 01:02:54.880 slick and convenient in a lot of places, but sometimes friction exists for a 765 01:02:54.960 --> 01:03:00.280 reason and we forget that at our peril. So just final question on my 766 01:03:00.440 --> 01:03:07.639 part because you mentioned sveld Kit, is sweld Kit staying the same in this 767 01:03:07.760 --> 01:03:10.599 release? I mean, the swelt Kit that runs with Spelt five is effectively 768 01:03:10.599 --> 01:03:15.519 going to be essentially the same as swelt Kit that's running with Swelled four. 769 01:03:15.760 --> 01:03:20.960 Is there some are there some changes on that front as well? It's going 770 01:03:21.000 --> 01:03:24.639 to be exactly the same at release, I believe. I don't think we're 771 01:03:24.679 --> 01:03:29.559 going to introduce any new things that you know, use the new state primitives 772 01:03:29.599 --> 01:03:31.760 for for example, straight away, because everything is just going to continue to 773 01:03:31.800 --> 01:03:36.159 work. It should just be like a Seams's upgrade. You can take your 774 01:03:36.159 --> 01:03:38.960 existing spelt Kit two app and upgrade Spelt four to Spell five. Everything's going 775 01:03:39.039 --> 01:03:43.760 to be fine. That said, once we do get Spelled five out the 776 01:03:43.800 --> 01:03:46.119 door, there are certain ways that we're going to be able to capitalize on 777 01:03:46.159 --> 01:03:54.400 it within spelt Kit and longer term, I think we have some some ideas 778 01:03:54.480 --> 01:04:00.360 of where we want to take spelt Kit that are going to be easier because 779 01:04:00.400 --> 01:04:03.679 Felt five exists. So do you have do you have a date. I 780 01:04:03.719 --> 01:04:09.719 know people are wondering, Come on, Charles, don't do me like that. 781 01:04:10.159 --> 01:04:14.840 Oh somebody was going to ask it. Okay, let me ask a 782 01:04:14.840 --> 01:04:19.239 different way then. So I'm figuring you have the roadmap pretty clear. It 783 01:04:19.280 --> 01:04:23.840 sounds like you know what you're putting in, how this is going together. 784 01:04:23.920 --> 01:04:27.159 It looks like you've got a lot of this kind of you know, bolted 785 01:04:27.199 --> 01:04:31.840 in. You know, are are you still bolting pieces in? Are you 786 01:04:32.440 --> 01:04:35.960 polishing? Are you i mean, where are you at? And the life 787 01:04:36.000 --> 01:04:40.519 cycle of releasing something like this. So, in terms of the design of 788 01:04:40.559 --> 01:04:44.960 the framework, I think we're pretty much done. There might still be one 789 01:04:45.000 --> 01:04:47.280 or two little API design questions that needs to be resolved, but it's at 790 01:04:47.280 --> 01:04:51.320 this point it is mostly implementing the things that we said we're going to implement 791 01:04:51.760 --> 01:04:57.320 and fixing bugs. I wouldn't say that we're on the glide path yet, 792 01:04:57.639 --> 01:05:02.480 okay, but we are pretty close. I think we're going to have a 793 01:05:02.559 --> 01:05:08.039 release candidate in the not too distant future and a stable release not too long 794 01:05:08.079 --> 01:05:12.679 after that. I'm just very hesitant to commit to specific things because in the 795 01:05:12.719 --> 01:05:16.519 past, whenever I've done that, people have got mad at me. Makes 796 01:05:16.559 --> 01:05:26.519 sense, It looks like from the comments on YouTube that some folks have been 797 01:05:26.559 --> 01:05:31.679 able to try out Spelt five right, So whatever state it's in and then 798 01:05:31.719 --> 01:05:35.639 able to get you feedback. So let's say that I'm thinking, oh, 799 01:05:35.679 --> 01:05:40.480 I want to try it out, right, whether I'm an experienced Felt for 800 01:05:40.679 --> 01:05:43.320 developer, whether I'm just you know, I'm trying it out, and I'm 801 01:05:43.320 --> 01:05:46.159 like, I may as well just try the cutting edge thing. Where do 802 01:05:46.239 --> 01:05:49.840 I go pick that up? And how do I give you feedback? So 803 01:05:49.880 --> 01:05:55.119 the beach is available on MPM, the NPM installs felt at next you will 804 01:05:55.159 --> 01:06:00.079 get the most indevelopment of version, the most cussing edge stuff. If you 805 01:06:00.159 --> 01:06:02.599 have an existing spelt Kit app, you can do that and hopefully things will 806 01:06:02.599 --> 01:06:05.159 continue to work. If you're creating a new application and you want to try 807 01:06:05.199 --> 01:06:11.199 it out, then when you create your spelt Kit application with MPM create Spelt, 808 01:06:12.039 --> 01:06:15.400 it will present you an option to try out Spelt five and if you 809 01:06:15.480 --> 01:06:20.880 accept that, then you'll be opted into the new stuff. If people have 810 01:06:20.920 --> 01:06:26.199 feedback, it is extremely welcome. Come to get hub dot com, slash 811 01:06:26.199 --> 01:06:29.599 felt JS, slash spelt and there is an issue track of there. When 812 01:06:29.639 --> 01:06:31.760 we are accepting issues and pull requests for Spelt five. A lot of people 813 01:06:31.800 --> 01:06:36.920 have already contributed, and it's been super helpful, really great to have like 814 01:06:36.960 --> 01:06:43.679 an enthusiastic community who will take this very unfinished product and actually start putting it 815 01:06:43.719 --> 01:06:45.920 through its paces. It's helped us find a lot of things that might have 816 01:06:45.960 --> 01:06:48.760 slipped under the radar otherwise. And if you want to be one of those 817 01:06:48.760 --> 01:06:54.840 people, then please come on by. I have to say that I really 818 01:06:54.880 --> 01:07:00.719 admire how brave, very brave you are in the scope of changes that you're 819 01:07:00.719 --> 01:07:04.360 making in this version. I mean, it's not totally not a trivial thing 820 01:07:04.840 --> 01:07:12.559 to take a framework that's already at version five or approaching version five and literally 821 01:07:12.639 --> 01:07:15.880 turning it on its head in a lot of ways. It's like it's a 822 01:07:15.920 --> 01:07:21.400 big gamble, and and I really appreciate you for doing it well, thank 823 01:07:21.440 --> 01:07:27.199 you. And you know, it's a testament to the spoke community that this 824 01:07:27.239 --> 01:07:32.119 has been met with by and large, a lot of excitement and enthusiasm and 825 01:07:32.920 --> 01:07:39.679 not too much grumbling and why did you have to change it? You know, 826 01:07:39.679 --> 01:07:44.039 we have this really great community that I'm very appreciative of, and they've 827 01:07:44.039 --> 01:07:49.599 been super encouraging and helpful throughout this whole process. Yeah, I guess one 828 01:07:49.639 --> 01:07:53.360 other thing that I'm just curious about. Do you do you have some idea 829 01:07:53.480 --> 01:07:59.800 how large the community is out there using spell Let me see the I guess 830 01:07:59.840 --> 01:08:04.920 the best proxy acting give for that is, let's see how many people are 831 01:08:04.920 --> 01:08:11.519 in our discord server right now? I think solo dev slash chat. So 832 01:08:11.559 --> 01:08:15.199 there's eight and forty five members online in our discord right now. I have 833 01:08:15.600 --> 01:08:20.720 sixty five, one hundred and four members. So it is, you know, 834 01:08:21.039 --> 01:08:24.760 next to React and View and Angler and these other things, we are 835 01:08:25.000 --> 01:08:30.279 ten hands product projects. But that's not a small number of people. No, 836 01:08:30.399 --> 01:08:33.520 I'm not exactly sure by the way. I mean, obviously React is 837 01:08:33.840 --> 01:08:40.640 the biggest and and it's effectively as big as all the other frameworks put together. 838 01:08:41.600 --> 01:08:47.600 But once you go beyond React, the order is not as as trivial 839 01:08:47.640 --> 01:08:53.199 as you might expect. From what I've seen. I've been kind of using 840 01:08:53.760 --> 01:08:59.600 the Crux, the Google Crux database as a reference. Now, obviously, 841 01:09:00.199 --> 01:09:03.520 you know, it only shows a certain subset, you know, effectively just 842 01:09:03.840 --> 01:09:11.479 sites that certain sites at Google ranks. But it's better than nothing. And 843 01:09:10.319 --> 01:09:14.760 uh, and then I'll try to look up to see what the current situation 844 01:09:15.079 --> 01:09:18.520 is, but I'm not sure it's it's quite as linear as as you might 845 01:09:18.600 --> 01:09:23.960 think. That's you know, that's what I'm thinking. Well, we're growing, 846 01:09:24.079 --> 01:09:30.039 but you know it's it's mostly upside as far as we're consented. Awesome. 847 01:09:30.119 --> 01:09:33.960 Well, I'm gonna go ahead and slide us into the wrap up of 848 01:09:34.000 --> 01:09:39.520 the show. Rich, you kind of talked about people giving your feedback, 849 01:09:39.520 --> 01:09:43.520 but if they want to follow you or see what you're working on, or 850 01:09:43.560 --> 01:09:47.000 connect in some way, where do people find you on the internet? For 851 01:09:47.119 --> 01:09:53.239 my sins, I still hang out on twister dot com, slash rich underscore 852 01:09:53.279 --> 01:10:00.279 Harris H Yeah, I guess that's where I do most of my opinion thing. 853 01:10:00.960 --> 01:10:06.800 But most of my time is Spelt is spent on getthub. So it 854 01:10:06.800 --> 01:10:13.279 comes to the Spelt organization on GitHub and and joined the join the threads there, 855 01:10:14.279 --> 01:10:17.760 and I thought discortical spelt dev slash chat. Yeah, that seems like 856 01:10:17.800 --> 01:10:21.760 an awesome thing. I just joined the discord. Sorry, I love Discord. 857 01:10:23.520 --> 01:10:26.399 All right, Well, let's go ahead and do some picks, Steve, 858 01:10:26.439 --> 01:10:28.760 do you want to start us off with the picks? All right, 859 01:10:28.800 --> 01:10:30.039 so you want to get to the high point of the episode, first, 860 01:10:30.079 --> 01:10:36.079 I get that, I get that speak early, right, So I didn't 861 01:10:36.119 --> 01:10:41.119 really have any other picks here other than the dad jokes of the week, 862 01:10:41.159 --> 01:10:43.840 which are the high point. Rich. I'm not sure if you're aware of 863 01:10:43.880 --> 01:10:51.720 this, but anyway, uh So, recently I found this diet diary that 864 01:10:51.800 --> 01:10:55.119 I was keeping when I was losing weight, and it says day one, 865 01:10:55.600 --> 01:10:59.000 I removed all of the fattening food from the house. It was delicious. 866 01:11:04.239 --> 01:11:08.439 Side note, I found another diary I kept when I was first born and 867 01:11:08.479 --> 01:11:11.960 said day one, still recovering from the move. In day two, everybody 868 01:11:11.960 --> 01:11:16.680 talks to me like an idiot. I borrowed that one from Stephen Wright. 869 01:11:18.279 --> 01:11:23.680 Continuing along with the food theme, a lot of French words have actually crept 870 01:11:23.680 --> 01:11:29.359 into the English language over the years, or durs for starters, right, 871 01:11:30.000 --> 01:11:35.199 and then you know, I've never really had pets because I'm just not good 872 01:11:35.199 --> 01:11:39.359 with pets. For instance, once I had a fish that could break dance, 873 01:11:39.840 --> 01:11:48.119 but only for twenty seconds and only once. Those are my picks of 874 01:11:48.119 --> 01:11:54.800 the week, all right, Dan, what are your picks? Okay? 875 01:11:54.920 --> 01:12:01.479 So we saw this movie on Netflix which I well, I really enjoyed, 876 01:12:02.920 --> 01:12:10.720 which is called I Care a Lot It's described as an American satirical black comedy 877 01:12:10.760 --> 01:12:15.239 thriller film. It's with Rosamund Pike and Peter Dinklage, and like I said, 878 01:12:15.279 --> 01:12:23.199 we really enjoyed it. It's kind of gritty, dark comedy and it 879 01:12:23.239 --> 01:12:28.439 has a certain message. So yeah, I recommend that. And the other 880 01:12:28.560 --> 01:12:33.680 thing is we've kind of been clearing out our library at home, Like we've 881 01:12:33.680 --> 01:12:36.720 got, like our library got to the point where we had three or four 882 01:12:36.800 --> 01:12:43.159 rows of books, so we thought that we needed to make some space. 883 01:12:44.039 --> 01:12:50.600 And I've been looking through my collection of science fiction and fantasy books and trying 884 01:12:50.640 --> 01:12:55.520 to see which ones I like to keep and which one I toss away, 885 01:12:56.119 --> 01:13:00.239 and some of the ones that I've decided to keep, I'm kind of reviewing 886 01:13:00.359 --> 01:13:05.920 or rereading and thinking about also maybe recommending for our listeners. So an interesting 887 01:13:06.039 --> 01:13:11.319 series that I recall enjoying very very much when I read them, so I'm 888 01:13:11.359 --> 01:13:15.720 now going to reread them and see if I still enjoy them is a series 889 01:13:15.760 --> 01:13:19.680 of books by a woman author. Her name is Julian May. It's called 890 01:13:20.000 --> 01:13:28.439 Saga of Leosen Exile. It's kind of a cross between science fiction and fantasy 891 01:13:28.520 --> 01:13:32.039 in the sense that everything is kind of described in a sciencey sort of a 892 01:13:32.079 --> 01:13:40.199 way, but the settings is actually more similar to a fantasy series. Now, 893 01:13:40.760 --> 01:13:46.319 I will make a certain caveat in some reviews have stated that it has 894 01:13:46.680 --> 01:13:53.399 transformed some transphobic views in it, So if you might find that triggering, 895 01:13:53.600 --> 01:13:57.520 maybe this is not for you. I'm not sure that's the case or not, 896 01:13:57.680 --> 01:14:00.199 because as I said, it's been a really long time since I've read 897 01:14:00.239 --> 01:14:03.640 it, so now I'll reread it again and see if that's indeed the case. 898 01:14:05.600 --> 01:14:10.279 But so that that would be a series of books that I reco that 899 01:14:10.359 --> 01:14:15.920 I'll recommend based on my recollection of it being just an excellent series of books 900 01:14:15.920 --> 01:14:19.560 that I enjoyed reading like a few decades ago, and those would be my 901 01:14:19.640 --> 01:14:26.800 picks for today. Awesome. I'm going to jump in with some picks here. 902 01:14:27.359 --> 01:14:31.600 And I probably picked this board game in the past, but we were 903 01:14:31.680 --> 01:14:35.000 playing it and my eight year old wanted to play games, and so we 904 01:14:35.159 --> 01:14:40.479 pulled out some of the board games, but she wanted to play an adult 905 01:14:40.560 --> 01:14:45.640 game, and so you know, we were pulling out off the kiddie games 906 01:14:45.760 --> 01:14:49.760 right right. And you know, for those of you who haven't listened for 907 01:14:49.800 --> 01:14:54.640 a while, are new I pick a board game every week, so this 908 01:14:54.680 --> 01:14:57.680 one is actually a card game, not a board game. This week it's 909 01:14:57.680 --> 01:15:01.359 Sushi Go Party, and it does have a little board, but it's just 910 01:15:01.439 --> 01:15:08.039 kind of for keeping track of your points, and you have the different sushi 911 01:15:08.159 --> 01:15:11.920 options, right, or sometimes you have other things like a spoon or chopsticks 912 01:15:12.000 --> 01:15:15.239 or something, and so what you do is it's a drafting game. So 913 01:15:15.319 --> 01:15:17.239 you have the cards in your hand. You keep one and you put it 914 01:15:17.239 --> 01:15:21.079 down face down, You pass the left, and then you reveal your card, 915 01:15:21.079 --> 01:15:26.600 and then you pick from the hand that was just handed to you and 916 01:15:26.920 --> 01:15:30.760 do it all over again until all of the cards are exhausted, and then 917 01:15:31.079 --> 01:15:41.439 you score, and the scoring is based on the whatever the different sushi options 918 01:15:41.479 --> 01:15:47.000 are, right, So the nagiri are just straight up the points that they 919 01:15:47.720 --> 01:15:51.520 you know, that are on their face. You've got like miso soup. 920 01:15:51.560 --> 01:15:58.479 Whoever has the most of those I think it's a certain number points. Anyway, 921 01:15:58.479 --> 01:16:00.359 there are a whole bunch of different things and you can trade them out 922 01:16:00.399 --> 01:16:03.600 right, So there are different kinds of sushi that you can swap in, 923 01:16:03.680 --> 01:16:10.199 right, and then you score the desserts at the end, and whoever has 924 01:16:10.239 --> 01:16:14.840 the most points wins. Board game geek has a weight of one point three 925 01:16:15.000 --> 01:16:21.800 zero, so you know, really simple game. She could pick it up 926 01:16:21.800 --> 01:16:29.680 and play it. She actually won the second game we played, but it's 927 01:16:29.680 --> 01:16:32.800 mostly on sheer luck because you know, she's not quite to the point where 928 01:16:32.840 --> 01:16:38.800 she can look at all of the options and put them together in the right 929 01:16:38.800 --> 01:16:42.199 way that works right. But she happened to collect enough of the right cards 930 01:16:42.239 --> 01:16:45.359 to make it happen for her the second time, which is kind of nice 931 01:16:45.359 --> 01:16:49.359 because you know, then she can play it and win. So that Sushi 932 01:16:49.359 --> 01:16:55.199 Go Party. I think it takes twenty minutes half hour to play around of 933 01:16:55.199 --> 01:16:59.680 it so and it'll play up to eight people. So if you have a 934 01:16:59.760 --> 01:17:02.159 big group and you're wanting a game that will play all those people, then 935 01:17:02.239 --> 01:17:06.760 that sometimes that's the issue, and you can definitely do it Sushi Go Party 936 01:17:08.880 --> 01:17:13.960 at home. And I've yet to win. Oh really, that makes me 937 01:17:14.079 --> 01:17:18.319 sad. We don't play Settlers anymore. We have it. I think it's 938 01:17:18.359 --> 01:17:23.680 called Katan now. I think they dropped the Settlers off. Could be and 939 01:17:23.720 --> 01:17:27.159 they have a bunch of variants of that too, which are fun. So 940 01:17:30.319 --> 01:17:32.600 anyway, I'll put an Amazon affiliate Lincoln there too. If you click it, 941 01:17:32.640 --> 01:17:35.800 I get kicked back, but you can just buy it wherever. It's 942 01:17:35.840 --> 01:17:41.760 been around for quite a while, so it's not it's not like a hot 943 01:17:41.800 --> 01:17:47.399 game that's hard to track down. But yeah, if I do it this 944 01:17:47.439 --> 01:17:53.800 way, then people just click and buy it. So other picks. I've 945 01:17:53.800 --> 01:17:58.239 been connecting with people a lot on LinkedIn, which I'm really liking, so 946 01:17:58.279 --> 01:18:01.840 I'm gonna pick that. Mostly what I've been doing is I've either been reaching 947 01:18:01.880 --> 01:18:05.640 out to people that I've worked with in the past or have some connection to 948 01:18:05.760 --> 01:18:09.960 us, like, oh, I'd like to connect with them again. You 949 01:18:10.000 --> 01:18:12.119 know. As I mentioned at the start of the show, I'm looking for 950 01:18:12.159 --> 01:18:16.640 work, and so you know, sometimes people will throw me a connection or 951 01:18:16.640 --> 01:18:19.159 something. You know, they're like, hey, connect with this person because 952 01:18:19.159 --> 01:18:21.760 they may be able to help you. But for the most part, it's 953 01:18:21.800 --> 01:18:26.119 just been nice to connect with people while I'm trying to figure out my work 954 01:18:26.119 --> 01:18:30.640 situation. And then the other two things are going to be the things that 955 01:18:30.640 --> 01:18:33.720 I'm putting together. So I'm I'm putting together JavaScript geniuses and Ruby geniuses. 956 01:18:34.039 --> 01:18:36.720 I think I've mentioned it on the show before, but I've finally got kind 957 01:18:36.720 --> 01:18:40.720 of all the platforms put together and everything, so you can sign up and 958 01:18:40.760 --> 01:18:43.800 do it. It's going to be a weekly call. We talk about JavaScript 959 01:18:43.840 --> 01:18:46.840 stuff. You know, we may invite people like Rich or Dan or you 960 01:18:46.840 --> 01:18:49.920 know whoever else that we've had on the show to come in and just chat 961 01:18:49.960 --> 01:18:55.840 with us about what they're working on. Right, so maybe we'll hit Rich 962 01:18:55.920 --> 01:18:59.000 up when Spelt five comes out and you can talk to us about what's involved 963 01:18:59.000 --> 01:19:03.359 there, or you know whatever when people are available, and then yeah, 964 01:19:03.800 --> 01:19:09.920 just kind of do some coaching, some career connecting. But it's kind of 965 01:19:09.920 --> 01:19:14.520 that weekly meet up vibe that you get. And so if you're into Ruby 966 01:19:14.960 --> 01:19:19.039 or JavaScript, I have basically one for each, and then I just the 967 01:19:19.079 --> 01:19:23.479 other thing is I just barely set up on spreaker. I set up the 968 01:19:23.520 --> 01:19:28.039 premium podcast, so you know, we do insert ads into the audio of 969 01:19:28.079 --> 01:19:31.520 the podcast, and so if you want the version without the ads, or 970 01:19:32.279 --> 01:19:35.960 if you are just you just want to support the show at nine bucks a 971 01:19:35.960 --> 01:19:44.960 month, that really helps because anyway, yeah, I'd like to eventually not 972 01:19:45.000 --> 01:19:47.399 have sponsors, but in the meantime, if you want to help us out, 973 01:19:47.399 --> 01:19:49.680 that'd be great, and you can just get that at JavaScript jabber dot 974 01:19:49.680 --> 01:19:55.079 com. Slash premium. All right, Rich, what are your picks? 975 01:19:56.199 --> 01:19:59.479 Well, after being reminded about it during this conversation, my pick has to 976 01:19:59.479 --> 01:20:04.720 be Ragnaro, go get yourself a quest three down O Ragnarok, You're going 977 01:20:04.760 --> 01:20:08.279 to have a great time. So the reason that we have a quest three 978 01:20:08.880 --> 01:20:13.119 is because I was able to convince my wife that if I spent five hundred 979 01:20:13.159 --> 01:20:15.800 dollars on one of these, I was much less likely to spend three and 980 01:20:15.800 --> 01:20:18.920 a half thousand dollars plus tax on a vision pro And so far that's how 981 01:20:19.000 --> 01:20:28.000 true. Yet to yield to temptation. Can't you get it for cheap now 982 01:20:28.039 --> 01:20:32.000 that everybody is trying to return them? Maybe? Maybe? Honestly, I 983 01:20:32.239 --> 01:20:36.079 haven't even tried one yet, and I'm scared to do so in case I 984 01:20:36.119 --> 01:20:40.600 am then compelled to drop all that money on something that I will end up 985 01:20:40.640 --> 01:20:43.520 probably not using very often. But you know what, I think people are 986 01:20:43.520 --> 01:20:48.119 sleeping on virtual reality generally. I think that it's obviously early and there's a 987 01:20:48.119 --> 01:20:53.840 lot of things that has yet to be figured out. But if I had 988 01:20:54.039 --> 01:20:58.159 more time to spend on hobby projects and I wasn't working every hour that ends 989 01:20:58.199 --> 01:21:02.159 on spelt, then you know, forget about all this AI nonsense. VRS. 990 01:21:02.600 --> 01:21:06.920 Where's it's going to be? I have to mention this. So that's 991 01:21:06.920 --> 01:21:11.239 something like fifteen years ago, I think, more or less. I gave 992 01:21:11.279 --> 01:21:15.720 a talk at a conference where I said that if in a decade from now, 993 01:21:15.840 --> 01:21:19.159 we are still using the same old laptop form factor, I'd be extremely 994 01:21:19.199 --> 01:21:27.319 disappointed with humanity. And here we are still waiting on VR. We're so 995 01:21:27.479 --> 01:21:33.479 close, We're so close. Yeah, all right, well this was really 996 01:21:33.640 --> 01:21:39.239 really interesting, and we do these episodes and then I'm always like I want 997 01:21:39.239 --> 01:21:43.680 to go fry it right now. So anyway, thanks for coming rich, 998 01:21:43.720 --> 01:21:46.000 This was a lot of fun. Yeah, thanks having me. All Right, 999 01:21:46.039 --> 01:21:49.039 folks, we're gonna end it here. Until next time. Max out