What Up? What Up? What Up? For everybody? Thanks for joining
me today on another episode of Let's Ask Paul, the podcast where I Paul
Abernathy answer all your pressing, electrical code related questions and other things related to
the electrical industry. Thanks for joining me if you're new to the podcast or
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right, So with that said, let's kind of get into some questions.
It's been a minute since I have done some uh uh, you know podcasts
that are not been mobile version. One of the things you can always remember
is the ones that are mobile chances are that it's not going to have a
lot of description about the topic. They're probably just me just talking as I'm
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are salesy, I can get it. Some people hate that, but you
know, you got to pay the bills, so it is what it is.
Hopefully you can respect that. But yeah, we have a lot of
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That's taken a while and it's getting better and better. So yeah,
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You know, it's got to be content that's worthy. But we're more than
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Guys, that's been that's been put aside specifically for that program's development and the
talent development program. Okay, all right, so let's get into some questions.
I'm sure that's what you tune in for, is some questions. Seven
minutes in, you've either listened this far or clicked off and not get it,
the tension spans being what they are. But let's go on in and
see if we can't get into some questions. Okay. The first question we
have that was submitted says, Hey, Paul, I always thank you for
what you do and thank you for continuing to answer my questions. I'm grateful
to have a resource like you in the industry. That being said, I
have another one. This one's controversial, okay, says twenty twenty three NEC
Kitchen Island slash Peninsula receptacles. Can they be installed under countertops or not?
I say no, But I've had people say that if a receptacle is optional
and not technically required, it doesn't have to follow the rules under required receptacles.
To me, this is just a result in written poorly written code,
and I'm sure it will be clarified in the twenty twenty six because we all
know what the intention was. Looking forward to your take. Thank you.
Okay. So I have done podcasts and videos on this before. It's one
of those things where it took a lot of people that supposedly talked about children
getting hurt by people pulling things, chords off counters and all this kind of
stuff. I never bought into all of that. And it's not because I'm
a you know, I'm a hater. That that's not the reason. That's
not the reason. I just remember that prior to the twenty twenty three and
I'll explain it. But prior to that, there was so much talk about
people getting injured or hurt because people were putting things like crock pots and other
things on these islands during holidays and they had no receptacles there, or they
didn't have enough receptacles that people were extringing extension chords over and then people were
running into those and pulling them off, and so you know, and I
also remember that the IAI and many other inspection authorities were crying that there wasn't
enough receptacle outlets at islands or peninsulas. And that's why we went from the
original which was a kind of scenario where you're looking at at twelve by twenty
four, and they went to, well, let's go to a square foot
method. First nine square feet gets one, and every eighteen square feet after
that gets another because they felt we didn't have enough. Then all of a
sudden, out of nowhere. You know, it's not like we had a
massive run people dying from this or kids getting hurt. I mean, again,
there is a certain level of accountability and responsibility. We can't necessarily save
everybody from themselves. But it seems like when it came to this time in
the twenty twenty three, during that development stage, it seems like everybody jumped
on the bandwagon that oh, we don't need them, And if you are
going to have them, then the receptacle has to be above or that can
be in the surface or pop above it. As long as they're not more
than twenty inches, then you have there. Then you can have the receptacle
outlet, or if you do want them at the island or peninsula, then
they have to be one or above and it can't be higher than twenty inches,
right, Okay, So basically that eliminated the ability to have it below
the countertop. And if you remember in previous code cycles, it could be
below the countertop if it was flat across the surface you had no backsplash.
It's just an ireland or peninsula with no countertop with no backsplash, for example.
Then you're able to put the receptacle below it as long as it's not
under an overhang more than six inches from the base, or any part of
the receptacle is not down below more than twelve inches. Okay. So that's
where we were, And so twenty twenty three comes around and it removes all
that and it puts a provision that says, okay, you're not required to
have the receptacle outlets at an eyland or peninsular, but you have to make
sure that there's provisions there for the future in case somebody wants to put one,
and oh, by the way, if they want to put one,
then they can, but then they have to follow all the rules that say
that again that it has to be on or above and not more than twenty
inches above. So you didn't have any provision to put them below. Okay,
Now, I think one of the things that confuses folks is that you
could always have a receptacle that was lower than twelve inches below the countertip.
It just couldn't serve the countertop. So there are many situations where you might
have an island that was built instead of being cabinets that you butt together,
and that's not really a wall. That's just cabinets, and so they wouldn't
really qualify as wall space because it's just cabinets. But there are many occasions
where those islands are built with a wall and then the cabinets butt against it.
Well, if that's the case, then what you have is a wall,
and if it's two feet or more, then it's required to have receptacles
just like any other wall space. That would be in your kitchen or any
other room, right. So I think the problem with that is is that,
yes, you could have a receptacle down lower, it just wasn't there
to serve the countertop. So any of them that are to serve the countertop
has to follow these rules. So the question is, can I have receptacles
below the countertop in the cabinet? Well, we do that all the time,
right, I mean there's receptacles in there for a cordon plug, for
garbage disposer or incinct waste disposer as everybody likes to say, or a dishwasher,
so there's there's allowances. Obviously, we have receptacles underneath the counter and
so the question is can I put a receptacle in the cabinet of can I
put it in the counter below the counter but it's not serving the counter Then
the answer is yes, We've been doing that forever. So the question really
has to be am I putting the receptacle in to use to serve the counter
or am I putting the receptacle in there because it's now considered wall space and
I'm trying to serve you know, two ten fifty two A the wall space
requirement if that's what it's in there to serve the requirement for the wall space,
then it's not there to serve the countertop or work surface. It's perfectly
okay, it's perfectly fine, you understand. Can I have receptacles that are
inside of the cabinet. Obviously we've been doing that forever, so that's fine
there for that need. Okay. So I think that the question is can.
I think what they're asking is no, I want to put a receptacle
on the side of my cabinet that is down twelve inches like it was before,
and since there's no overhang rule, this is you know, and say
that it's not to serve the countertop. Well, that's where we get into
a little bit of an iffy line, because you know, an HJ is
going to see it close to the countertop and they're going to say, you
know what, you're putting that in to serve the countertop. You're not putting
it into serve a wall space requirement. So there's going to have to be
and that's the thing. Everybody wants the NEC to be so black and white,
and it really can't be. And it's up to the HJ. It's
going to have to make those decis visions. And that's why you need inspectors
that are very open minded and understand that you know what we're dealing with.
Because if I'm an inspector and I see a receptacle six inches down from the
top of the countertop, uh, and I'm in the twenty twenty three NEC,
then I'm going to think that receptacle is to serve that countertop, and
if that's the case, that would be a violation. Right. But if
I see one on the cabinet that is down low, and I noticed that
this happens to qualify as wall space, if it's like a framed up wall
that the cabinets are pushed against that creates the island or whatnot, then Uh,
then I'm going to look at it and go, Okay, then that
that is a wall space requirement, and I'm going to allow that receptacle to
be there. So I think that's kind of the line they have to they
have to cross, just because I think the key here is is that receptacle
outlet installed to serve the countertop or could it be construed that it's there to
serve because you're putting it up closer to the countertop. If that's the case,
then I think you have a problem at least the way the twenty twenty
three code is written. Now, we're going to get some relief from that
in the twenty twenty six it's not a total relief. It has a lot
to do with drawers and how you would place the receptacle outlet in the drawer
and all this other stuff that's going to come out, and it's still being
voted on, so I don't want to go into that yet. Well,
obviously talk about that in future episodes or what they're intending to do at that
code panel two. I'm not altogether sold, but it does give a little
relief, so hang tight. But for many of you, that's a long
way down the road. So in twenty twenty three, that's my opinion on
it. Hopefully that is helpful to you. But again, if you want
to get around that, just put the receptacle down low. If it's to
meet a wall space requirement, and if it's not to serve a countertop,
and you put it down lower like it's normal eighteen inches twenty then I think
your argument could be that it is not there to serve the countertop. It
is there because you have an option that you can put receptacles pretty much anywhere
you want that type of thing, right, and that's what you choose.
It is obviously not going to serve the countertop. Now you're going to have
some guys that go, dude, if you put it on the island at
all, that I'm thinking it's there because you want it to serve the countertop
or a highland. Well, you know what, I can't. I can't
tell you what the inspector's going to think. And the code is not written
that way, and everybody would love it to be. But they're the same
people that gripe that the code requires too much or it's too deep, and
it makes things difficult. So you know, you can't win for losing in
some cases a code. They're making it this way, and the HJ is
going to have to make the ultimate decision. But I can tell you if
you put it up close to the counter I'm going to say it's there to
serve the counter and under twenty twenty three it can't be. It's got to
be orner above and not higher than twenty inches. And I'm going to say
anything that's remotely close to the countertop or the work surface is being installed to
serve that work surface, and that would be a violation. Does that mean
again that I can't put receptacles inside the cabinet for whatever reason, for specific
applians or whatnot. Absolutely, I don't see anything that would say you can't
do that, because again I can put you know, you know the spacing
rules in a house six foot twelve foot rule typically under the two ten fifty
U A well and more specifically A one. I think that you could put
them every two feet if you wanted. It's okay, So I think it's
the same scenario here, But it's all the intent of where you're putting that
outlet, a receptacle outlet. That's the that's the intent here that you've got
to be aware of. Okay, all right, hopefully I answered that question
for you. I went a little deeper than I probably should have gone with
that one, but hey, it's one of those things where you want to
make sure you're answering folks questions and being as deep as you can. And
you know, I tell people they don't like my Long Window podcast, and
they have every right to not listen. That's your prerogative. All right,
So let's see here, let's go to another question that was submitted, and
this question was submitted again. By the way, folks, all of these
questions are submitted through Paul Abernathy dot com. Again, it's a free service,
Okay. I don't have to beg you to do it. I got
plenty of questions that I can do. But you know that is one way
that is that we kind of give back to the industry and answering people's questions.
You don't have to agree with my opinion. Again, I'm gonna give
you code references where necessary, right, and you know, so where it's
necessary to give them to support it where otherwise you're just asking my thought on
something. We'll do our best to do that. Okay. The next question
comes and says, hey, Paul, I'm getting confused. Confused with Article
two twenty five thirty concerning brand circuits to a detached garage. Let's say that
a detached garage has a single one hundred and twenty volt branch circuits applying it
to serve the general lights and receptacles. But now they need an EV charger.
Okay, says can a separate EV charger branch circuit be run to forty
volts let's say sixty amps and have a means of disconnect at the detached structure,
along with the one hundred and twenty vault branch circuit having its own means
of disconnect, or would the one twenty volt branch circuit have to be abandoned
and a new feeder pulled to be large enough to handle the original one hundred
and twenty vault loads and the new two hundred and forty volt ev charger loads.
The long winded, the longer winded the explanation, the better I'm looking
to understand this as much as poss and not finding reliable enough information. Well,
there's a problem with social media right there. I'm still on the twenty
seventeen code, but newer, updated explanations are welcome since the majority of states
are on the twenty twenty. Thank you for the content as always. Okay,
thanks for the question. We're going to use the twenty twenty three.
So again, you want the latest code, you say twenty twenty, But
you know, I kind of go to the latest code and it is not
any significant changes in this that I see that would warrant it doing any earlier
code. So that we can be a little more general to all the people
that will be listening. As your code cycles start to change and you start
going to twenty twenty three, the twenty twenty is going to be similar.
There is no that I don't see any real change in this, so it's
not going to affect my answer. Okay, So the first thing you're thinking
about here, detached structure. It's very much like a service in a sense.
You cannot how many services can you have to a building? Well,
other than some other allowances, you have one service to a building. I
mean, that's it. Now there's other allowances to be able to do that,
and you just have to get you know, you have to get familiar
with them into thirty dot two right number of services. But this is different
because this one, this twenty five dot thirty is under part two of two
twenty five and it's talking about buildings or other structures supplied by feeders or brand
circuits. So you admittedly, what you have is a brand circuit running to
that detached structure and you're picking up the lights and you're picking up the receptacle.
That's perfectly acceptable. That is one of the allowances there. You don't
have to have a feeder going to remote distribution panel there that's perfectly allowed to
do what you've done or what they've done. So the question here is they
really want to bring another brand circuit to this detached structure. Okay, So
here's what it says in two twenty five dot com and it's titled number of
supplies because obviously it's like two thirty dot two, but we're not talking about
number of services. This is supplies. It says a building or other structure
that is served by a brand circuit or a feeder on the load side of
a service disconnecting means and obviously this would be a remote distribution from the main
panel to this detached structure, shall be supplied by only one feeder or brand
circuit unless permitted in two twenty five dot thirty A through F, and it
says, for the purpose of this section, a multi wire brand circuit shall
be considered a single circuit for this application. All right, So that means
that if I ran a twelve to three there, even though I technically can
get two circuits out of that, you know, a black and a red
sharing a neutral, uh, and it qualifies as two separate circuits. As
far as it's concerned, it doesn't breach anything. That is still just one
brand circuit, so I'm not violating the rules into twenty dot two twenty five
dot thirty where it says only one brand circuit. So it's just telling you,
yeah, I know that a multi wire branch is really two circuits sharing
a neutral but to meet this rule, it's just it's just a single circuit.
That's fine. It says where a brand circuit or feeder originates in these
additional buildings or other structure, only one feeder or brand circuit shop You're permitted
to supply power back to the original building or structure unless permitted in two twenty
five dot thirty A through F. So what that means, by the way,
in in case you didn't understand that that language that came in last cycle
in the twenty twenty is that look that means if I'm going from your house
to a detached structure, and then I want to and not say that's the
branch circuit, let's just say or it could be a feeder, but now
in that detached structure, I want to supply power. Let's say back to
the to the original building that it is going to allow me to do only
one feeder brand circuit is going to be permitted to come back. Now,
this is probably not that practical for residential, but it is when you deal
with like campus systems or where you have these large universities and they may have
feeders that are going out and they might have something like a something powering back
to the original building. Uh, and so this allows you to do that.
Okay, so it allows you. Now with that said, again,
reminder that a lot of this stuff in Part two is dealing with This is
just supplies. This is not services, although it's going to seem very similar
to services, so for those that are used to that. So the reason
I say that is because when you see the number of supplies and you come
down to a which is special conditions, then you'll see things like fire pumps,
emergency systems, legally required, standby optional power, parallel power production systems,
and so forth. And now the one that comes to mind that they
want to use as a special condition is it says electric vehicle power trans transfer
systems. That's typically when you have more than a single branch or feeders,
so not when you're just taking a detached structure like your question, and just
wanting to put one ev in there, so you would not use a seven
for that allowance, okay, And then the other ones are really not germane
to any of these until you get down to E. Now E is different
characteristics, right, So if I have one twenty that is brought to this
detached structure, but now I want to bring a brand circuit that's going to
supply to forty, then it very well could be argued here because it says
additional feeders or brand circuits shall be permitted for different voltages, frequency, or
phases, or for different uses such as control of outside lighting from multiple locations.
So you could conceivably argue here that you have one twenty vault system there
and you're bringing a two forty vault system there. They are definitely different voltages.
So that so that's one of those things, and again you could argue
it is for a different use. Now says such as to control outside lighting
from multiple locations. That's just a such as use. That's not an all
encompassing use. So it's one of those things where you can have a conversation
with your agej your local building official and say, okay, I've got one
twenty and I'll need to bring two forty and that is most certainly different voltages.
Okay, so it didn't say in here one thing. It says you
shop have permitted to have, for example, something to do with phasing or
the phases in a sense it says or phases. But we're not talking about
single phase versus three phase, which would be an easier one. Since it's
all single phase, you got to kind of you got to kind of hang
your head on the different voltages. Here's a caveat to that. You need
to verify with your local agej and it's going to be better for you to
be able to paint the picture for them to kind of express what you're trying
to do. So again, and lastly, there is one under f that's
called documented switching procedures. This is mainly seen in campuses and multi building industrial
complexes. But again, you can make the argument that your detached structure is
under single management and there is a rule in here for documented safe switching procedures.
But again it's got to be established and maintained. I don't know how
you would swing that. Obviously, commercial industrial has a maintenance policy. Maintenance
program, established program. I don't know how you would do that with a
single family dwelling in your case, but I would probably try to use E
for that. And so there'll be others that say, well, that's not
different voltages. Well, last time I checked, one hundred and twenty volt
is different than a two forty volt. So that could be your argument,
and give it, you know. I mean, I'm sure there's the pinheads
that will disagree, and that's fine, but I'm just giving you my opinion
on that. So now, is it an option to do what you said
originally and just turn change it to a feeder and put a panel in.
So here's the thing that would probably what I would advocate for. Obviously,
as a contractor, I'm you know, it's not that I'm going to make
more money having to put in a feeder, but if I'm going to have
to bring another branch circuit to this structure and it's got to come from the
main panel, then it seems to me like it would just be a better
expansion. They might end up doing more things in this garage. It seems
to me like it would be an opportunity. Since you've got to dig the
trench anyway, it's gonna have to be the same depth, regardless of whether
it's a brand circuit or you're taking a feeder out there. It seems to
me it would be your best interest to just simply convert that and it's real
easy to run a feeder, put a panel and now you know, go
over and feed that same box that originally was getting fed from the dwelling with
that original brand circuit, and just to refeed it from the panel that's being
installed in the detached structure. To me, you're gonna have to bring another
one anyway. So this seems to be the best approach, and I don't
see where it would cost that much more, maybe one hundred and ant remote
distribution panel versus sixty for the brand circuit for the EV. So it seems
like me that would be the best thing. So just giving advice, I
would kind of say, look, you're gonna get more expansion, more capacity,
more use, potentially to add something else in here. So this is,
you know, this is how I would go, And it can't cost
that much more. It really can't that much more. I'm just saying,
all right, so hopefully it answers that question gave you my opinion on that.
You can agree to disagree if you want. That's fine. I don't
have a problem with disagreements. So but that's my thoughts on it. There.
Let's see what else do we got. Okay, all right, so
we got another question here at Darling's actually starred this one for me, so
I guess this must be somewhat of a question but also a self promotion,
because that's usually what she does when she stars these questions from me. Okay,
it says, Hi, my name is Beep and I just recently purchased
one of your programs to help me pass my master's exam for the state of
Texas. Okay, all right, in your opinion, which type of question
excuse me? Which type of calculation questions should I focus on? Lastly,
are there any specific videos that you would recommend from fast Tracks too that would
help me understand how to do those types of calculations? Thank you for your
time and help. Okay, Yeah, So in Texas, if you're taking
your master's exam, it's two separate tests, so you have your look up
skills. What you're gonna learn as you go through our fast Tracks program.
You're gonna get better at looking up things using the chevrons going in and out
of the code. But you're gonna get better at that. Obviously, we
go over single family dwelling, multifamily, dwelling non commercial type, I mean
a non dwelling type of calculations like stores and restaurants, and multifamily you know,
like a six unit complex and a twelve unit complex. One of the
things that I will tell you that as you go through it, and these
are in unit eight, eleven, and thirteen, by the way, in
our programs, whether it's the basic or the enhanced, or the black or
the plus, it doesn't matter, same kind of content. Really focus on
all of the steps that are involved in your multifamily, in your single family
and those things I would say, focus on understanding range calculations. I would
understand how to do appliance calculations, all of those type of things. When
it comes to calculations, really try to focus on the low hanging fruit stuff,
right because a lot of times on exams they realize that there's a certain
number of amount of time and so they're usually not going to get too deep.
But one of the advices I can give you is for you is you
make sure that you really hone down the three wave method that you truly understand
how that method works. Okay, we have a video on that that's over
on the fast tracks Tube. Just in a search feature at the top,
just try type three wave that type of thing, or you can type calculations
and you'll get all of our content that's focused on calculations. If you're on
fast tracks Tube, there is one a eight hour calculations video that is eight
hours. It's worth fast tracks to by itself. Watch that eight hour video,
okay, and we're gonna go over so many calculations in there. Also
in there again, if you do a search at the top and you type
in calculations and you use the search feature, you're gonna get a lot of
our calculation videos and just watch them. Just watch them. You know a
couple of things that you have to get used to on Texas exams, it
could be the same with any exams, is that they're going to ask you
potentially any piece, okay, any piece of a load calculation. And they
may not ask you to do the entire load calc or something like that,
but they might ask you to do pieces of it. Right, and so
you might need to understand the appliances and how to apply appliances into twenty dot
fifty three. You might they might ask you a dryer question to twenty dot
fifty four. They might ask your range question dealing with two twenty fifty five.
So I can't really tell you any specific calcs. And as I say,
most people know that I served with PSI in order to help write some
of the exam questions in Texas, but I've been I've not done that for
a couple for two cycles now. So it's not that they're going to scrap
all the questions that we helped create. It's that would be too much work.
And I can promise you from somebody that sits there and helps develop the
test questions. We don't reinvent the wheel. All we do is look at
questions to see if there's a if they're still relevant, if it wasn't code
change specific, if it wasn't like a twenty twenty and now that's changed for
the twenty twenty three. We spent a little time doing that, but we
didn't really spend a lot of time trying to rewrite or reinvent the wheel.
Now we were asked to write new questions and submit them each day to try
to help build up the question pool. And then we did a lot of
time looking at questions that were underperforming or some that were too hard or some
that were too easy, and could we rewrite them to balance it out a
little bit. But yeah, we didn't sit down every time three days that
were there and just try to write a bunch of questions. There's already thousands
of them in the data pool, so all we did was look at ones
that were performing good or bad. Really and it adding a few here and
there. So I can tell you with all confidence that the questions are not
difficult, but there's a lot and they press on you. As a master
test, it's a totally separate exam, whereas a journeyman the calculations are mixed.
In the master it's not and many states are going that way. All
I can tell you is just focus on the question and if you're in our
program unit eight eleven and thirteen, if you don't get above eighty five,
or you get in the mid eighties. If you get below that, don't
be satisfied. Go over it again, look at it again, spend some
extra time in there, and even create your own question based on the competency
reviews that we give. You just change the numbers around, like instead of
instead of two small appliance brand circuits, make it three, or make it
four or two laundry circuits, or change the square footage and you can get
very creative and you should be testing yourself that type of thing. But that's
the kind of questions they're going to ask you. Very basic. They might
ask you a simple question for calculation to understand. Do you understand continuous loads?
All right? So all those type of things. So again I can't
tell you any specific question you know calculations you should be looking for, except
I can promise you that you're probably going to get a question about an all
electric restaurant. Okay, so you need to understand how to do that calculation.
And it's pretty simple, it's pretty straightforward, but you got to make
sure you understand how to do it. A lot of times they have a
question where it wants to know how to size something. If it's a four
wire three phase system and it's a for example, a four wire three phase
y system, and for these individual dwelling units, it's branching off of that
with three wire systems Okay, So two hots of neutral and an equipment ground.
And when you hear people say three wire, they're not including the equipment
ground. So when you see three wires, it's really two hots and neutral
and an equipment ground. Okay, So don't get fooled by that. Okay,
when you see somebody say a four wire three phase, then that is
three phases, a neutral for the most part, and then you're still going
to have an equipment ground. So don't get confused in that when you hear
stuff like that. So a three wire system that's derived from a four wire
three phase system, okay, when it derives from it, it's just deriving
two phases. And that's the case. You need to know how to do
the system, how to convert that type of thing to to turn. And
let's say if you have a certain number of ranges. Now here's a tip
for you. We have a video that explains that it's available over on fasttracks
Tube. Just type in ranges it'll come up. But remember there's an informative
index D that already has an example of that as well, to help refresh
your memory on how to do that math. Okay, in order to be
able to determine the number of actual ranges you have, and then you can
go and apply all of the rules in two twenty nine to fifty five.
So just know that that's probably coming and we do have videos for both of
those, okay, But other than that, just study, spend a lot
of time in eight eleven and thirteen. Focus. Don't be in such a
hurry to finish. Don't be such a hurry to submit it for us to
grade it. And if you're in the Basic in the enhanced program, you
still got the same complicated question on the competency just before you go looking at
the answers, take your time and really work it out. Work it a
couple of times as if you keep getting the same answer, and then when
you do, look at the answer key and if you get it wrong,
then spend extra time trying to figure out why you got it wrong. And
then remember that you can always reach out to me and I will explain it
more detail. I mean, that's the beautiful thing about our program. Whether
it's your the basic or enhanced, where you don't have my personal grading,
I'm still here. I'm still available for you to ask me questions on Paul
Abernathy dot com. You can go to our message board that's on the website.
There's many ways that you can get questions answered. And it's it's yours.
It's your fault if you don't try to get those questions answered. I
want you to come away feeling confident. That's key. Confident and that's the
kind of passion I put into it, and I want you to be able
to feel the same way. Okay, all right for those that listen,
that's it for this today's episode. We obviously have more coming out, So
if you again, make sure you subscribe and do me a favor. If
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right, folks, that's all I've got. Hopefully you enjoyed something to learn
something from this. Until next time, Stay safe, God bless and we
will catch you on the next episode of let's Ask Paul. Both both taskball
mothings mask nothing,