Hello, fellow freethinkers. A Wisconsin based nonprofit, the Freedom from Religion Foundation,
has urged at Sneed State Community College in Alabama to stop holding prayers at
staff events and including religious messages in official communications. The frf's letter was prompted
by complaints from a staff member and in highlights concerns from the staff about feeling
uncomfortable and pressured to participate in Christian prayers. Now, the FREF has contended
that such practices violate the First Amendments Establishment Clause, which I agree with,
and it's calling for government neutrality in matters of religion. The organization does have
a history of advocacy for separation of church and state, including cases in Alabama.
This article is entitled the Alabama Community College President's staff prayers pushing religion group
says and then from al dot Com, written by William Thornton, published September
thirteenth, twenty twenty three. And they hand it off to Infidel. What
do you got for us? Infidel? Well, you know, Kelly,
first, I have to say Alabama again. You know, I think sometimes
I wonder if Alabama's just not trying to be the poor cousin of Florida or
Texas. It's just another place with outdated, bad ideas flourishing and thriving.
And you know, this whole thing about prayers before meals and a staff events,
I mean, it really should be a no brainer. It really we're
past You would think we would be past this point by now. And I
did notice it talked about Joe Whitmore presenting a guiding Bible verse for the staff
every year, and all I could think of was, Joe really sounds really
fun at party. I mean, who loves anything more than a good moralizer
standing in the corner yelling at everybody. I mean, it's it's the reason
I go to parties, you know, it's it's the only reason to go.
But you know, hearing about the staff member being forced to participate in
this and being uncomfortable with it, I know that there's going to be some
pushbacks saying, oh, you know, it's it's just just you know,
us doing our thing. It's not a big deal. You know, why
is some group from Wisconsin coming in here and telling us, well, we
should be doing here in Alabama? Well, you know they look at it,
you know, And we talked about many times about how you know,
there're certain people, you know, once again, this religious right who LGBTQ.
You know, if they just see somebody existing, well that's an agenda.
Well you know they're they're actually literally pushing an agenda here. But but
that's okay. Now, I know SNEED is a state college, now,
you know, but it started out as a religious school in eighteen ninety eight,
became part of the system in nineteen sixty seven. But it's not in
eighteen ninety eight, it's not even nineteen sixty seven. It's twenty twenty three,
and even in Alabama. So what do you think, Jimmy, I
think that was a perfect point to hand it off to me because I couldn't
agree more with the fact that not only are we not in the eighteen hundreds
and were not in the very tumultuous nineteen sixties as far as civil rights are
concerned, but in this day and age, this school, this under the
alibut Alabama State Board of Education, UH and having these these uh these prayers
and these these Bible studies, et cetera. UH, just goes against what's
guaranteed in the Constitution, and that is, uh, the right of us
as Americans to not be in a system that is sponsored or in which,
excuse me, get a little tongue twisted to not exist in the system where
the state sponsors religion. That's what I was trying to say. And so,
uh, this is going back way back in time to where it did
start as a seminary, and I would just say this is probably an example
of old habits dying really hard, because I really would expect nothing less.
And we've talked in segments before where I have to have some self awareness of
my own biases when I consider the religious right, uh, and the the
white nationalist conservative movement. Uh, it is really kind of propagated by institutions
like these down in the Deep South. And so I'm not surprised. It's
not right, but I'm not surprised. And so, uh, there's still
some work to be done in that area. I think it's going to be
a long road. And yeah, Kelly, what do you have to say
about that? You know, as Infidel mentioned, it's school was once a
Christian seminary and it's almost like they didn't change management. The same management is
there. I know it's not, but it sure looks the same. And
what I found interesting and it mentioned in the article is that the team name
is the Parsons. The Parsons. Really, they couldn't even come up with
a secular name for the sports team. They actually hadn't named it after a
type of a holy man. What the hell is going on down there in
Alabama? Do they teach evolution in the biology classes there? Do they even
have science classes at all, you know, besides the intelligent design classes.
I just don't get it. I'm not against somebody praying at school. It's
legal, you can do it whatever you want, but the school itself can't
sanction it if it's a public run school, period. They just can't.
And when you have the president of the school leading prayers before meals and the
empis and before meetings on campus, he has crossed over the line because he
is the school, he's representing the school at a school event. I yeah,
this is just egregious breaking the rules. So yeah, I don't even
know where to go at this. Infinitely want to follow up with I mean
from here from there in a little tongue called myself there and Jimmy, I've
got to say that having a little bit of experience of being aware of what
a ripoff concessions can be at a high school game, Parsons might be a
pretty honest representation because you know, there's probably some theft going on pretty bad.
So if there's one thing we know they're good, they can get a
hold of the money. So you know, maybe they're adequately named there.
But seriously, it is no joking map. At the end of the day,
this is exactly what it looks like. And that is a situation where
change is gonna come come about kicking and screaming. No, no one's that
anything till now, so there's no problem, right and and that's a very
dishonest way to look at things. And but you know, that's that's one
way that we see time and again places like Alabama and some of their neighbors,
one of your old states, Jimmy, that uh, you know,
it's a matter of yo. It's it's as long as nobody's saying anything,
everything's really okay. And and then of course if you do say something,
well, what's wrong with them? They really should know their place. And
so we kick back into that old familiar trope of you know, if people
weren't so up at he and just knew what they should be doing, everything
would be just fine, and I think that, unfortunately, that's what we're
probably going to see happen a lot with the people in the surrounding area were
directly impacted with this. But the bottom line is change needs to come about,
whether they're ready for it or not. You know, it isn't as
you mentioned the tumultuous sixties or the late eighteen hundreds. It is twenty twenty
three. It's going to happen one way that sometimes it does look a little
shaky. I have to believe that in the long run, we're going to
see this play out like it should, because this won't last forever. And
Jimmy, yeah, I do so I kind of can relate to what some
of the complaints are here. So the letter to the from the attorney reads
that the people complaining about this feel that they are being forced to bow their
head and anticipate because not doing so I would require them to expose their personal
beliefs to potentially be subject to retribution. Now I can relate to that because
I am in the military, and I do want to say, since I'm
on the subject, my thoughts and opinions are completely my own, and I
don't represent the Department of Defense or military in any way, shape or form.
But you know, we do come from very Christian conservative roots, even
to seeing changes for women's dress and appearance in the last few years. I
mean, up until I think it was twenty nineteen, women had to wear
skirts in their dress uniform. I came into a military that was under the
don't ask, don't tell policy of the Clinton era, and I'm now very
proud that I get to supervise transgender troops underneath me. So I've seen a
lot of growth, but where we lack is the kind of religious growth that
I think a lot of people wish they could see. Right. And so
I'll go to a holiday holiday party, right because it's got to be non
denominational, it's got to be non specific. But the person that gets up
to say the prayer immediately turns it into a Christian a Christian gathering, right,
and the rest of us, you know, unlike what the people in
Alabama experiencing. It's actually kind of fun because everybody bows their head and we're
kind of looking around having a party, like pointing out you know, hey,
oh look an atheists, Look, hey, you don't believe either,
you know, And it's kind of like, all right, man, you
know, so I know who my people are. But I think all that
to say, I'm not really surprised. You know, this is the deep
cell, this is gonna happen. I mean, you can pick your battles.
Sounds like these people pick their battles and want to want something done about
it. In other ways, people may not be speaking up and they may
just deal with it, go get their education, and that's okay too.
I guess you know, I don't want to put any pressure on anybody to
say you have to be an activist, you have to do something, you
really have to do what's right for you. And I'll close out my comments
here with the fact that you know, if these people want to pray,
if they want to be religious in their government funded, government subsidized institution,
then go to a non government subsidie institution, Go find a job somewhere else
where these actions are going to be welcome. Nobody is preventing you from practicing
your faith in a manner that's appropriate for everybody. And so again, whenever
you have a choice to make, you can always be cool, or you
can choose to be an asshole. And it seems like these people are just
choosing the asshole route and they shouldn't do that. So Kelly, what do
you think. Yeah, I think it's important to remember why we have the
separation of church and state and the United States. I think most people and
most religious people in the United States today, I think it's to keep them
out of the government. And that's not really why it was put there.
I mean, that is part of it, but what we really wanted to
do is keep the government out of religion. You have to remember our forefathers
watched as Europe was ablaze with religious force for two centuries. England alone was
officially Protestant and Catholic, and Protestant and Catholic. Several times over the king
or queen would be Protestant and then the Catholics would be persecuted, and hence
the secret priest holes. I don't know if people know about those, but
a lot of old houses in England have little hidie holes for priest will hide
into for when the Protestants came to round them up from Burnham or Hangham.
And then a few years later a Catholic ruler would take the throne and the
reverse would happen, then it would be Protestants being let off to the stakes.
So I don't think this is really what Christians want. I think for
the government to choose one religious sect over the others is something that they really
really don't want, and they should start thinking about how much they want to
interject themselves into the government. I think they think it's okay because they feel
like, well, where the number one religion in America? We're you know,
we're Christians, so that is the one true religion. Of course we're
right, So it's okay for us to be this way. But you know,
how do you decide which sect of Christianity takes over? Would it be
the same when the president is that? Does that make any sense? Then
we'd all have to be Catholics right now and nothing else. Right That's it.
And I don't know what Trump what church Trump belongs to, So I
don't know where we can go for that one some crazy right wing evangelical church.
I'm guessing he would endure something that uh paula white church maybe, And
can you imagine the chaos it would cause if the official national church had changed
every four to eight years. Yeah, honestly, you don't have to imagine.
You just gotta go read some sixteen seventeen europe said century European history to
see what would happen. Len you want to add anything to that, well,
you know, I had to say that I think I know exactly what
church he would shoot, and it's called the highest Bidder because that's just you
know, we we we know that answer. And that may change weekly too,
And he's pretty good at the backstab as well, so that may change
on a regular basis. But but seriously, you know, I was raising
a religious faith that we were heretical. We were on a very small minority,
and this whole idea of a Christian leadership would have been unheard of them
because we knew we'd have fell on the wrong end of it. But now
people seem to forget that, and they think that they all want to say
that at least think that if the Christians are in power, it's going to
be the Christians, like, uh, you know, whatever us is,
you know, that's going to very according to what group you have, but
it's going to be our kind, you know, the good kind of Christian,
the real Christian. And you know, I think that Jimmy's right when
he mentioned picking battles as well, because you know, the truth is is
that a lot of this does reek of the same, uh where you know,
where they go around, you know, have a blessed day. They're
go ahead and they're they're they're underlying that, undertoning that in to get a
feel feel you out, going ahead with that, you know who I am
and what I am. I get a lot of this in this case too,
because come on, really, at the end of the day, I
doubt that the head of the school is, you know, dedicating his life
for the betterment of Christianity. No, he's just being a smug typical Christian,
smearing it in everybody's face, even when often enough he probably doesn't even
realize he's doing that. It's just, well, it's what the people around
me do. I'm I'm being that you know, glorified Pharisee, and I'm
going to present and show myself who I am. And that's really what it
all really reeked to me. Because the Bible says keep you praying private.
So he's already breaking one of the basic rules in the first place. So
I don't know what his deal is, but I think the courts will rain
this in in the long run, because it's really quite clear, it's not
really debatable at all. Now, Jemmy, Yeah, great point. It's
a lot to go off of their I think Kelly's history lesson was excellent,
and I think it's a it's a factor that we forget about a lot,
and uh, you know, it ties directly into what you're saying, Infidel
because uh, you know what if this precedent was set where some sect of
Christianity or Christianity in general, let's say, is just a state sponsored religion,
and then the tides turn and now we have a Hindu or we have
a Muslim religion that starts to take hold. Now, those Christians that were
such proponents of that change have to live with the consequences of their own decisions,
something that they thought was going to benefit them. And I think that
Kelly's historical analysis and your your contemporary analysis are are perfect data points for explaining
why exactly this is not this is you know, not good for society as
a whole. And your point about infidel, your point about the highest bidder
was spot on, not only you know, theoretically right. It's funny when
we talk about you know Trump and his business tactics, right, but in
reality, what's stopping anybody from buying church allegiance and buying the church's checkbook or
at least endorsing the church's checkbook? Right? I mean, we have to
keep that far far away. And so I think that those were excellent points.
I think, you know, understanding the constitution of where it comes from,
even though it was written by men who raped their slaves, uh,
you know, does have some strong points to it. And so I just
thought that was really good. I did have another point that kind of slipped
my mind in your expert commentaries that I might have to just find it,
you know, some other time. But great discussion, Yeah, it was.
It was a really good discussion. I'm glad we had it. And
I guess with that will wrap it up. And if you're going to be
in the Austin area September twenty fourth, you should stop by their Free Thought
Library for live recordings of Talk Heathen and Atheist Experience. It's a lot of
fun. I've done it twice so far this year. I would do it
every month if I didn't live so far away, because it is so much
fun. And do it and and If you want to hear more from the
non profits, you can get it right here.