And it hits me, Oh my gosh, this is a triangle. You
know, there's explanation for everything that occurred in the randallsham Pars incident. It
doesn't involve aliens at all. It was completely silent. It comes right over
our heads classic. He's also really standing into clearing. He turned over to
my father and held his hand, and he looked in his eyes and said,
we're not alone. Welcome to Podcast UFO for our live show. During
the show, feel free to participate live in our chat room, and don't
forget to like us on our very active Facebook page. Hello, and welcome
to the show on Martin Willish, your host. Hey, after a new
headset. We're going to see how this works. You know, I've been
trying to find something that would work better for so I don't have to keep
leaning up to the mic all the time. And I had I had doctor
Michael masters On who had a headset that sounded great, so I ordered it.
It's here. Hopefully it'll sound as good as it does when he's using
it. Also, other people are using the same mic in the trade,
so we'll see how this works out. My guest tonight is doctor Bruce mcabee,
He'll be coming up in a little bit first, filling in for Alejandro
as the one and only Lee Spiegel. He'll be on in just a second.
I want to say that next week I have, as you know,
long time listeners especially, I've always figured out a way to do a show
even when traveling overseas or anywhere. But this next week it's absolutely impossible,
and I have to support my lavish lifestyle. I guess I am going to
be working at a location on an estate where there's absolutely no internet, just
barely a one or two bars signal, and I have to stay there at
the house for the entire week next week, so I'm not going to be
available for a show. However, I already have set up a first time
YouTube is an interview back in twenty thirteen and or even earlier, I believe,
yeah, twenty thirteen. I have an interview setup that you will find
most enjoyable, and that's also going to be a rerun for all of the
longtime podcast listeners and supporters. The free show and the member show is all
going to be that. Speaking of members, a number of people have told
me they have had trouble that they do not want to use PayPal, and
I guess Patreon has other ways of people supporting a show, So I have
a membership now on Patreon. I already have a supporter, Thank you Chris.
He's also the one that strongly suggests that I do it, So that
is now available. The link is right on podcastufo dot com. If anyone
wants to support through Patreon, and I will. Once you support the show,
I will give you the link and the free I mean the access to
the two hour shows and a complete guide on how to set that up with
your media player. So again, where you can support the show through our
website or you drop down menu there and to support the show, or through
Patreon, and anyway, thank you all for supporting. If you can't support
the show, I still appreciate you listening. And with that, we'll start
out with our fill in news guy today, Lee Spiegel. Hey Lee,
welcome to the show. Well, hello, Martin, I'm very happy to
be your current fill in guide. Yes, thanks for filling in, but
you also I was inviting you on anyway because you have you know, you
want to talk about your new show coming up, So let's do that first.
Let's just talk about your show coming up. The time whereas someone can
watch it and all the info you can give us, well not are we
talking about radio or oh yeah, otherwise no, no, let's talk about
We'll talk about the part later. Yeah, okay, Well, you know,
I'm actually I'm looking very much forward to joining you and the KGRA family
when I premiere my new radio show next week. It's right around the corner,
and it's called Edge of Reality Radio, and it's kind of a kind
of a half premiere and half resurrection of my previous talk show that was called
coincidentally, Edge of Reality that it first hit the airwaves nearly forty years ago
on NBC Radio in New York. And wow, a lot has happened since
then in the whole field of UFO studies. And as you know from all
the work that you're you've done, the people you've interviewed, we're at a
point right now historically where the ridicule factor has diminished a great deal. People
aren't as afraid of reporting strange things that they've seen in the day or night
sky. Plus the way that the meteor reports close encounters, that's evolved to
the point where it's not just kind of relegated to a news item that's saved
for the very end of the eleven o'clock news each night. That seems to
be a thing of the past. I'm happy to note that you're absolutely right
about that, and it makes uh. I think I talked about it last
week. I'm not so embarrassed to actually talk about it, and when I'm
out and about and actually doing my professional life, I'm not so worried about
it anymore. Oh. That's an interesting point because there are many people who
have other things that they do for a living and the UFO part of their
world is almost secondary, and they make many cases it should be because people
need to actually live and earn a living, But it doesn't mean that they
can't be serious investigators of something that seriously needs to be investigated. And you
know that you know much closer than those people. I know. That's right.
That's right. So let's see. They can catch it right here.
Actually, if you're listening live on KGRA A right now, you can catch
it there. And it's Thursday evenings again, what is it? Eight to
ten? Is that? Yes? Edge of Reality Radio will premiere Thursday,
August first, from eight to ten pm Eastern Time on KGRA aight, and
and just so that you and your audience knows each week won't just be about
UFOs. There's a lot of road to cover in what I like to call
the overlapping world of science and unexplained phenomena. We're going to look at things
like ghosts, the possibility of life after death, the scientific search for all
the realities and universes, one of my favorites, time travel, straight creatures
reported from around the world, and you know, recent advances in what we
now know about human consciousness, and there's a lot going on with that kind
of research. So I'm I'm looking forward to just taking the listeners on an
eye opening excursion of the wonders of the world that are all around us,
because I'll learn in the same process as the listeners will. That's why that's
why I do this, Martin, is because I don't know everything about all
of these things. This is a great idea. It's a great ability for
me to learn as much as I hope to bring to the audience. So
this is great for all of us. I think, I totally I totally
understand. Although I will say how many years have I doing this show?
Eight years? Just about eight years I know just as much as I did
in the beginning about UFOs. You know, I don't don't want to say
that I know anything more about UFOs. However, I will say that I've
heard in the eight years that I've been doing this show, I've heard some
amazing things that enough to keep me going. And it's it's actually still exciting
for me. And you know, just to listen to you know, even
if I don't agree with what someone is saying, it's still very interesting to
me to hear people's thoughts about the possibilities of what we may be seeing.
I think it's all fascinating. Listen, I think you're wrong. I think
yeah, but only only on one point. I think you, Martin Willis,
you do know more now than you did when you first started reporting in
this And what I mean by that is to people who who say to me,
oh, I can't believe that stuff you're interested in. I'm a real
scoffer at that kind of stuff, my response to them is, how much
personal time have you looked into this particular subject? How much time have you
either read books or watched anything else besides ancient aliens on TV? I mean,
what have you done for yourself to give yourself a valid opinion on the
subject, and in this case UFOs, and people will say, well,
I really haven't done much and yeah, I catch a couple of things on
TV, and I have no problem saying to people Martin, in that case,
you don't have a valid opinion on UFOs because you haven't spent the time
to create an opinion. You're just going by what you've maybe instinctively or what
you just believe inside. People want to believe in something. Everybody wants to
believe in something. But that's okay to have a personal belief in something.
But isn't it better to know that your opinion is based on what you've really
found out on your own and that will make the water cooler conversation with you
much more interesting the next day. You know, I do agree with that
that part of it. Absolutely, Like, if I'm out and about and
the conversation happens to come up, I do have plenty to talk about,
that's for sure, without sure, without a doubt. And if you're just
listening to this show, that means that you probably know more about it in
that way that Lee is talking about than the average show. Really, I
would hope. So, yeah, I hope that that people are really interested
in what you present, what I present when our friend Alejando presents, um,
we have other colleagues who are on KGRRA who are doing the same thing.
They just want to present information that will that will kind of enlarge this
scope of the information for the listeners. That that's really what we're here for,
is to just help people to learn and to and to maybe be entertained
along the way, maybe be be mystified along the way. I have been
mystified by many things over the past forty years, and I loved telling people
about them, and I'm sure that you have too, Yeah, yeah,
yeah, all right, So you also want to talk about what James was
going on as far as the is it called the phenomenon? Is that the
name? Well, you know, a lot of new television series have emerged,
as you know, including the recent History Channel show called Unidentified Inside America's
UFO Investigation, and they had a lot of things there that I felt were
really well presented to the audience. You know, we now know, in
fact that there have been recent congressional meetings with military pilots about their own close
encounters with Unidentified Aircraft. So over the last couple of years, as you
know, I've been working on a new provocative UFO documentary and yes, you're
right, it's going to be called The Phenomenon. I've been doing this with
filmmaker James Fox. This will be kind of the third film in his trilogy,
his UFO trilogy. The first two films were Out of the Blue and
that was followed by I Know What I Saw and now we're doing The Phenomenon
and we have just in the last few days, I will say, we've
signed a contract with a major media distribution company and we're looking to have our
film released to the public, initially as a theatrical release, by the end
of the year. We're very happy about this. Wow, So it actually
will be out in theaters. You're talking about that. Yeah, that's my
understanding, and I've been I've been pressing James for more information and it appears
that part of the deal will be to see how well will it do in
theaters. And you know, I'll be honest, documentaries don't do all that
well in theaters, right, People on fucking to to buy popcorn and coke
to watch a documentary in a theater. So we're really hoping that this has
some far reaching out to the public so that it kind of rocks with them
and people will resonate with this. But part two, this would be well
beyond going to a theater, maybe to get this thing on a place like
Netflix or the History Channel or other places where it'll have a bigger outreach to
people. We just want as many people to see this because we've gathered some
great exclusive information and interviews that won't be seen in other documentaries, right right,
And you know, I got to say, I saw when Jeremy Corbell's
Bob Blazar film went out. It was in theaters in at least LA and
there were people waiting in line to see it. I was surprised to see,
you know, that was maybe a test theater or something like that.
It's now on Netflix, but and you know, listeners, of course no
my mixed feelings about Bob Blazar, but still that that was surprised at the
turnout. And you know for that, well, well, I'll tell you.
I believe it's my understanding that the distribution company that did all the promotional
for that film is the same company that's working with us now and I'm very
happy to hear that, because you need the right kind of promotion behind you
to get the public to realize that there's something playing in their local theater that
maybe you want to see. Hey, there are people in the chat room
that are discussing now about you know, the the previous name seven oh one.
Can you can you tell them why that name was changed on this film?
Well, the original title from the movie, and it goes back five
or six years ago when James started working on this documentary. It was originally
called the seven oh one and that number came from of the I believe,
of the nearly thirteen thousand UFO cases that the military, the United States Air
Force investigated in their Project Bluebook Day. He's back in the sixties, the
fifties and the sixties of the thirteen thousand, seven hundred and one remained unidentified
or unexplained. So that was a number that has always stayed that way.
It hasn't changed at all. It's always been seven oh one. So when
this film started going through a variety of hands, and James was always with
it from the very beginning. When it finally got to his very capable creative
hands, he didn't want it to be just recognized as seven oh one,
and we came up with especially he came up with the idea for the title.
We had all kind of contributed what we thought could be good titles,
and the phenomenon basically came from one of the early documents in UFO history that
I'm always quoting that the General Nathan Twining documents from nineteen forty seven in which
he was with the Air Material Command and he wrote a very famous memo that
was classified at the time, and within the memo he wrote things like,
the phenomenon reported is something very real, not fictitious, and it's extraordinary the
phenomenon. And we thought, well, yeah, let's use that phrase because
in the beginning of our film, we're going to be leading up to where
the title comes in, and we're leading into it in a very dramatic way
that I won't give it away now, but when the title finally appears on
the screen, the phenomenon, the audience will go, oh yeah, I
get it. Well, Lee, thanks so much. And just once someone
was asking our number of people were asking, do you have an idea approximately
when that You're just saying, by the end of the year is that all
you know right now? Yeah, although we know as a timeline, we
believe we want this to be distributed ready for release to the public around the
holiday time, which means that the company is the company is going to do
the distribution. They need to have the final product of it from us in
their hands about three months ahead of time so they can do everything they need
to begin to do the promo work for it. So if we're going to
be in theaters in December, they've got to have the film by September,
and that's around the corner. I got it. All right, Hey,
thanks so much. I really appreciate you feeling in. It's always great talking
to you, whether it's or on the phone, it's always fine. Thank
you, Martin. And have a great conversation with Bruce mccabee. He's one
of my favorite people on the planet. Excellent, all right, you take
care, all right, thank you, Okay, goodnye, guys, all
right, good night, all right, right bye bye. All right.
So my guest tonight Bruce mccabee. He hasn't been on for I think six
years or so, a long time, so it's really good to welcome him
back. He has quite a background. We're gonna be talking about that.
He was involved all the way back in the Navy. When he was in
the Navy, he was researching UFOs um, you know, privately, So
we're gonna be talking about that and a whole lot more. Bruce, welcome
to the show. Thank you very much. Too badly had to go.
Oh yeah, I know he's always always a lot of fun. Um.
So I'm gonna try to boost your audio just a little bit. Um So,
Bruce, Uh, you know, since you have been on, you
know a lot has happened in UFOs in general, and I know that you
have done a ton of work on whether it's video or uh, you know,
photograph, um, you know analysis. Your background has a lot to
do with that. Can you, uh, since you've been on, I
have a lot of new listeners. Can you give in a nutshell your background
and we'll get right into your thoughts and what's going on today and what some
of the work you did in the past. Well, I got I'm seriously
interested interested in investigating the subject in the late nineteen sixties at the time when
the Content Report was going on, funded by the Project Blue Book and the
Air Force, and there was a period of time there where you could talk
about UFOs about having a bag over your head. But that ended in nineteen
sixty nine when the Air Force closed the Project Bluebook and everybody, including mainly
including the press sort of assume that the UFOs had been explained and there was
nothing to it and it was all going away. And then in nineteen seventy
three it was we're back. And the summer, late summer, a flap
of sighting started in the southeastern United States, and sort of the flap sort
of moved around towards the northeast somewhat, and there were a couple of settings
that made national news, the Hixon Parker abduction and had passed the Golugle Missippi,
and Larry Point helicopter case north of Columbus, Ohio. I also made
national news, and it was unusual for ufolks sittings to make it into the
national news, and that was two that did anyway. At that point it
was clear to me that UFOs weren't going away. I had joined Nightcap in
the late sixties, and so I was a familiar some extent with what NCAP
did. That got me on some of the UFO investigations. I went out
with people who had done this before, and investigated a few cases, it
was apparent that I was wasn't running up against cases being people being nuts,
are trying to hoax things, and so on. So and after the nineteen
seventy three I began doing my own my own research work, I guess you
could say, starting off bistically reanalyzing the Special Report fourteen, a Project blue
book that has been published about twenty years earlier. I spent time on that.
I tackled a photo case known as the Minville photo Casementville, Oregon,
nineteen fifty Paul Trent and his wife got two pictures of an object flying by
their farm. The image of the object is large enough and clear enough so
as either the real thing or a hoax is no halfway point. And that
was analyzed by William harmon And during the time of the Condon study in sixty
eight sixty nine, and he concluded that he couldn't prove there wasn't a fake,
but it seemed to him it was real. And he said all things
investigated seemed to be consistent with the idea that this extraordinary flying object had gotten
within the past them on the side of the two trends and here it was
in a multi page, hundreds of pages document devoted to all sorts of studies
of e fology from history to the history of the subject, along with the
histories of numerous sightings that they investigated and so on. And this is the
one sighting that William Hartman suggested might be real essentially, And you would think
that the funded organization, like the funded study like this, funded by the
government and carry out of the university, that if they came up with something
positive, everybody else would jump on it and see if they were right.
But to my greatest surprise, nobody jumped on it. So I jumped on
it and to see if if I could reproduce what Hartman claimed and also go
beyond what he said. So over the next well, from nineteen seventy four
on about seventy seventy seven seventy eight, I did studies of the trend photos
and all the things are going on with interest of interviewing them and interviewing people
who knew them, and doing all analysis of the theory. This is all
on a website I might give up right now. It's brumac dot my site
dot com. That is b r u m Ac dot M, I,
S, I, T E dot C, M, BROOMAC dot mysite dot
com and you can search the site for various UH. There's other bankabytes,
I guess of analysis of zillions of sightings, ranging from the Trent Case Skylab
three sighting UFOs by astronauts UH and UH, the nineteen eighty six nineteen eighty
six Japan Airlines case Flight sixteen twenty eight over Alaska, the two thousand and
four Mexican Air Force sighting over the Utah Pa Pninsula. Lots of lots of
stuff. Golf briefs fits in there, other things that many many people have
never heard of. But anyway, I started doing investigations of various thing that
one of the most important ones that I did, I lucked out, you
might say, to be the person investigating the famous New Zealand sittings when they
occurred in December nineteen seventy eight, involving people on boarding airplane and two radar
engineers in the the radar of Port. Anyway, I wrote of a big
report on that, and that sort of led me through my contact with the
CIA, which is another serious interesting story. I might mentioned it since I
was on with you, I guess five or six years ago, um I
published four books on the subject. The flagship book is The flagship book is
called the FBI CIA UFO Connection FBIICA UFO Connection, and that's available at amazon
As are the other ones. The Obvection in My Family is another second book.
Then Three Minutes in June, which is the most complete study of the
Kenneth Arnold case analysis of his descriptions, I'll tapped at plus Fred Johnson,
who was a who saw these objects flying overhead just after the from the can.
And then the most recent book I published called nineteen fifty two of the
Legacy of nineteen fifty two, the year of the UFO were I've been sort
of reliving on Facebook stuff on the year nineteen fifty two and most recently seventeen
years exactly to the day before the moon landing that we were celebrated last weekend.
Yeah, figh house has appeared over Washington, DC on the nineteenth and
twentieth of June. Of July nineteen fifty two, there've been a big build
up of sightings throughout the whole United States starting in April of nineteen fifty two,
and by July nineteen fifty two, Blue book was getting ten or twenty
or thirty sightings a day, far beyond anything they've ever had before. And
then on Saturday, the nineteenth Saturday, the nineteenth June of July, I
mean, radar unknown unknown radar targets appeared over the Washington, DC area,
and there were sightings of the radiar targets of lights during the early morning hours
of July twentieth. And so things are happening seventeen years ago from today.
Yeah, the twenty sixth um next, which would be seventeen years ago next
Saturday, uh, where these objects came back against stayed around for a few
hours. They had had jets chasing them, and it made a big flap
in the press. The most important outcome of that two tree minous concentration of
sightings in the nineteen fifty two was a press conference held by General John Sandford,
the Director of Air Force in Diligence, on Tuesday the twenty I think
it is of July nineteen sixty two. At any rate, his press conference
lasted for over an hour, during which time he said probably the most provocative
thing he said was there were incredible people making incredible reports, or to that
effect, giving some level of credibility to what was going on. Nevertheless,
he tried to pawn off the radar detections as results of also anomalous propagation due
to temperature inversion. Yeah, and the temperature inversion effect has an effect on
radar beam going out. Radar beam supposed to stay up in the sky,
but if there's too much of a radar too much of a temperature inversion,
the radar beam will actually be bent downwards and hits things out in the ground.
And the only experienced radar controller I'll be able to distinguish between appear to
be targets. Yeah, better actually reflections from ground objects and the and the
same distinguished between those radar targets that are not real compared to the ones that
are, and the experience radar controllers. Years week, weeks and years after
these events and General Stamford's press conference, they were absolutely confident that what they
saw real hard targets. So not no right radar effect due to the atmosphere.
Yeah, Bruce, that's I'm some frap. We're a little bit late
for our break. We're going to have to go into that, so hang
in. Everyone will be right back. All right, Everyone welcome back.
We're trying to work on the audio here on Bruce's side. Hopefully it's a
little bit better. Bruce, right before we went to break, you were
talking about Um Sandford back in July nineteen fifty two talking about the radar inversions,
and you said that people were actually saying they were hard target, hard
targets. You want to kind of finish that part of it. Yeah,
The rear controllers themselves testified many times over the years that these are hard targets
as far as they're concerned. Probably the main importance of the event was Channel
Sandford's press conference, where he tried to explain everything is national phenomena, and
as far as the radar targets were concerned, he was saying, it was
all sort of like hot air, at least as the terminology picked up by
the by the press. It was all hot air, and it's becoming It
became important for the sort of the policy of the Air Force took towards UFOs
from then on, mainly that there was nothing to it. There was no
threat to the United States. Forget it. Don't tell us anything we don't
want to know about UFOs and the Air Force. Nevertheless, continue to investigate
because they had sort of had to fulfill his duty to prove that there was
nothing in the sky could hurt the United States. But anyway, that was
nineteen sixty two or seventeen years ago, and were still struggling under the hot
air UH syndrome, he might say, um, yeah, right now and
back. A lot of people will look at the images of the Capitol Building
with the lights over it, and that actually is uh, that's actually an
inversion of lights, isn't it up in the sky that that picture that you
so often see it has nothing to do with UFOs, even though it was
happening at that time. Am I right about that? Well? I can't
imagine an inversion of lights as lights on the ground scene somehow by the closest
you can get would be a mirage, and the angular shame separation between the
object of the mirage and the mirage imast itself has to be less than a
degree uh to the area. So these images of lights of the cattle many
degrees of over the horizontal. So I don't know about these pictures that I
have been floating around the robb buying classicattle. Um, but amage, that's
for sure. Yeah, yeah, I was loosely calling it an inversion just
because I didn't know what to call it. Um, you know, it's
not you know, it's not like a lens flare or anything like that.
But it was you know those pictures of that people see online if you search
for nineteen fifty two, you know, UFOs over Washington, that's what you'll
come up within. It basically lines up with the street lights perfectly up in
the sky. However that was done. I have no idea, but um,
those aren't. That's a single picture you're talking about, Yes, yeah,
yeah, I'm talking about a movie, a movie of lights moving past
the Forster right, moving past the Capital. Oh okay, I think I've
seen that as well. Well wow, yeah, but that was really the
picture here, the picture you're talking about, taking from the sort of rear
the Capitol building looking towards the Capitol and seen lights up in the stop in
the sky and very bright lights are greatly over exposed at ground level. Those
are known as as flares lens slayers, where they get a reflection in the
optics with the camera reflection that takes some light from an actual light, so
it's extremely bright and reflects it over to some angle away from the center of
the photo, making a dimmer image which is usually not seen. What can
be seen if there's a dark background, then the flare can be seen on
superimposed out of the background. But anyway, the picture you're talking about I'm
familiar with, and as I said, that's a result of lens slayers causing
reflection images that appear in the sky but are not actually in the sky,
right right, So actually I had it when I said it wasn't lens flares,
I was wrong. It actually is lens flares. But yeah, we're
both talking about the same picture, which is which is interesting. But fifty
two was really, um, you know, a year where uh there was
a crazy amount of sightings. Um, you know, to the point where
you know it did bring that uh uh you know, it did did change
a lot of things as far as people taking a hard look at it.
And uh, you know, same FBI file, the FBI file which I
got nineteen seventy seven and which is so summarized in the book The FBI CIA.
The FBI file has some documents and the fall of nineteen well, one
document on the same day as Cinel Sanford's UM press conference UH, the FBI
Asian went to the Office of Air Force Intelligence UH and UH the interview find
out what was going on with all these sightings, and the Asian was told
a couple of percent five pc out of the sightings could not be explained and
that some top level Air Force people were seriously considering interplanetary ships to use a
phraseology that's in the document. So that was pretty interesting. And also in
nineteen fifty two there were so many sightings the CIA got involved, and that
was that summarized also in my book. Those were a lot of sightings and
things that happened in the fifties. The last part of the book discusses my
direct interactions with the CIA, which began in nineteen seventy nine when I was
looking for some help and analyzing the radar detections in the New Zealand sightings of
December seventy eight, and I went it was it was suggested by a person
I knew that I could go to the CIA maybe and get some help on
radar, and so I went there and I explained to about half a dozen
gentlemen who sat there listening what I knew about the those Eveland sightings, and
later on, I oh, I guess I visited the CIA two or three
times and I need seventy nine. Got some information, but it really didn't
make much make much of an impression on me, and I never expected to
go back there again. But just so. Half of the five years later,
I got a phone call from a CIA guy who was interested in the
Navy work I was doing. All his UFO stuff was independent of the Navy.
Of course, the Navy work I was doing at that time was generating
underwater sound using high power lasers. High polaser beam is sapping the water to
create sound, and this CIA agent had been studying comparable paper papers out of
the Soviet Union. He wanted to know whether we were keeping up with the
Russians or not, and so he contacted me and I went there. Well.
On the first phone call he asked me if I could do it.
I said, you are happy to give a description of what we're doing,
and a few hours later he called it up with details on when I should
be there and all that, and hey. He then after, after talking
of the business, he then says, I understand you've been here before,
and my job nearly hit the floor because I had not intended to say anything
about being at the CIA to discuss UFOs. So my cover had been blown,
you might say. For the next ten years or so, I had
considerable interaction with this guy on the on the UFO subject. At the same
time we were talking about laser generated underwater sound. Uh did was there?
There was someone that contacted me one time that thought that you may have actually
worked for the CIA involving UFOs. Uh in some like private capacity. Um
was that just? Is that just a rumor? Uh? Well, I
didn't work for the CIA in the implication of getting paid or something like that.
I shared with them some information that I got this this guy who was
apparently interested in the subject himself. Like virtually every in defense situation or whatever
I went to over the years that I was with the Navy, there were
people who were interested in this subject and they were talking talking about it and
whispering tones. Yeah, nobody, nobody was over the interested, you might
say. But you would find out that there would be a little group of
people who would get together away and that happened just about every defensive solation that
I was at. Bruce. Someone wanted to know what the laser sound was
actually for. We were investigating this for a number of things, but one
of the big east was anti anti submarine warfare ASW, where you could use
the laser beam from an airplane beaming down onto the surface of the water,
generate sound of the surface of the water that goes down into the water and
those down where some submarine with a sensitive hydrophone can be listening, and you
could send a signal from the airplane directly to the submarine by using this interface
method of creating generating a series of pulses of laser pulses on the surface that
generated a series of acoustic pulses in a body of water underneath the surface.
And there were also potential potentiality for using for searching out for minds and other
things like that. But that was the that was the main driver, was
the ASW situation, and that was the interest also the CIA, because they
could see the Soviets doing the same sort of work we were doing, measuring
how far you could transmit a pulse in the water if you created with a
laser beam. Interesting, wow, and is this something that actually was used
or is used in any type of way currently At the time we were investigating
this, the Navy was looking for a way to signal submarines anyone under the
surface whenever when they had done something capital and uh, we knew that they
were working on a project called Sanguine. They had to do with sending low
frequency like i'm agnetic signals out the contact submarines. And there was so minor
say between what we were doing and what they were doing with the electromagnetic the
project saying when methods finally ended up working and so they didn't need to worry
about generating sound with the from above with an airplane. U. So now
I got used. You might say, wow, well that's that's really interesting.
So um, you know, um, since the last time we've talked,
actually, there's so much more technology out there today. UM, not
really, I'm not really talking about anything to do with photo or video,
but all but uh in detection. As you may, I'm sure you keep
up on that stuff. For instance, the Navy, what the Navy has,
and why the Navy is actually seeing a lot more uman I've ever seen
before in the skies because of the different you know, the different equipment that
they have that and who knows what the future is going to bring as far
as technology goes, have you been keeping up on that? One of the
key things in this recent revelation about the Nimits events in two thousand and four
November of two thousand and four, Kevin Day, the guy who was the
radar operator, I was telling me about tracking these objects. And they had
the spy radar, which is a multi beam radar even tracks all different things
at the same time at high speed if you want. What he told me
could not have been determined let's say ten or twenty years earlier, before spire
radar was available. I forget what the first the first ship with the spire
radar, the Princeton, I believe sometime and uh, the late nineties.
I guess it was, oh when I first had the first the first ship
but Tykeer on the road, tyke Onto rogasticks in my mind, But that
might not be it. At any rate, it was it was well proven
by the time it was being used by Kevin Day on the on the Princeton.
Using the spy rayar, he was able to measure these obvious were traveling
at twenty eight thousand feet altitude going one hundred knots, which is which is
a crash velocity of feet. The air is so thin up there that you've
got to go at high speed in order to be able to get left alane
up, shoving air down. Shoving air down to high speed holds a plane
up if you're not going fast enough, Shoving off air down to the hold
the play up. But these things were going along calmly, and when some
F eighteen jets approached, they started dropping downwards, and he said they had
dropped down to the surface of the earth the ocean about fifty feet, and
he estimated point seven eight seconds, about eight tenths of a second, they
would drop from twenty eight thousand feet to fifty feet. That's a considerable distance
to travel in less than a second, four tenth of a second. I
calculated if this were Newtonian mechanics, where we were talking about it, and
some object was pushing me, pushing one of these things downwards to go halfway,
accelerating halfway to get as far as quickly as you came to the halfway
point, and then decelerating from the halfway point to the endpoint. And if
you calculate like this, you come up with some thousand geese or something like
that of acceleration necessary to cover that distance and from twenty thousand feet down to
zero feet and covering fifty feet I should say, covering that distance in less
than eight tenths of a second. It requires thousand a couple of thousand g's
to get up to the speed that you're reaching when you're in the halfway point,
and then you slam on the brakes, I really mean slam on the
brakes, reverse your reverse, your thrust or whatever, and slow down so
that you stop fifty feet above the water. You can think of other ways
of getting from point A to point B, A lot of different ways of
getting from from point A to point B. But the halfway the halfway mark,
accelerate to the halfway point, then decelerate to the endpoint. As a
gives you an estimate of what sort of acceleration you have to have and it's
huge. So yeah, they were able to do these opects were able to
do that, and then they sort of meandered back up to the top.
That's eight thousand feet again. Anyway, we were talking about the capability of
the instruments to detect that, and you wouldn't have been able to see that
with the ordinary radars they had in the old days where you know, a
single beam is rotating around. Yeah, you're and you're seeing blips appear on
the radar screen. Every type of the beam goes around. M Well,
with a spire ratar, you can lock a beam, mom, And that's
my understanding. You can lock on a beam and just let the track whatever
you're you lock it onto. That's right now. Another you know, another
point in in that in particular is if you if you had any type of
craft that could travel those speeds, Um, you know, it would completely
fall apart, um, just with a thousand Jesus just not even never mind
being being inside of it, um, just the craft itself. I would
think it would shatter with that with that force. Um. I mean,
I don't know, I don't know. I'm just it just seems logical that
it would. Well, it was one of the things which occurred to know
and Kenneth Harnold when he thought about his saying back in June twenty four,
ninety forty seven. He observed these objects and they're very jerky motions as they
traveled along as he compared with a saucer skipping out on the water. And
that's where the serm flying Saucer came from. If you go back you read
my book three Minutes in June and you see you see the complete story of
Kenneth Hanold and deep analysis of his of his sighting. But he as one
of his first thoughts was these things were so jerky that they would h going
at such a high speed and changing directions that they would turn a human being
into a mush very quickly. Yeah, So that's that's sort of the thing
that these new recent admissions by the the TTSA people, lou Alesando and song
Um that these objects have very jerky motion. David Fraber, who was the
one of the f eighteen pilots to see the thing called tick tack. So
it was traveling along in a bossing way like ping pong ball bomasing off the
wall, where you have a very sudden change in direction and you go along
easy, some some velocity and sudding a change direction to some other direction,
and the change in direction with requires an extreme extreme acceleration to do that,
so enough to turn a human being into a jelly. That was already way
way back and ninety forty seven. The first part of this podcast, wet
Spiegel talked about channel. Nathan Twining's letter talked about the phenomenon as being a
real and not fictitious or imaginary, and already by that time when he wrote
that letter in September of nineteen forty seven, they knew that these objects had
very strange characteristics, such as being able to suddenly appear as if dropping down
from a high altitude, so someding to be able to disappear almost like disintegration
as they took off, picking capability of high speed, and no recognizable features
indicate it was like an airplane at all. That's all all that stuff that
has been emphasized as characteristics and recent discussions by the CCSA people. That was
all own back in nineteen forty seven. Yeah, so I asked, I
asked the question, why don't we learned last seventy two years. One of
the things we're just about ready to go in to break here in just a
minute. But one of the things up I have argued more or less when
it comes to people saying, oh, this is just you know, new
technology, could be China, could be Russia, et cetera, et cetera,
et cetera, I will bring up the subject, well, what about
people saying the exact same things or exact capabilities you know, fifty years ago.
How would you explain that, Because if something was out for fifty years,
we certainly would know about it by now, you would think. But
I think we're just about ready to go into break here, so we might
as well go ahead and do that. This is Martin Willis. My guest
tonight is doctor Bruce mcabee, and we'll be right back. Thank you so
much for listening to the show. Remember there's a new way to support the
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today's show. It has to do with good old fashion UFO photo analysis and
that's by Charles Lear. Check that out. So we'll be back next week,
but it will not be a live show. It will be a repeat
of back into twenty thirteen and then we'll be back live as usual after that.
Thanks so much, and remember to keep your rise to the sky