1 00:00:18,359 --> 00:00:21,800 We're back with another edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Jashinsky, 2 00:00:21,839 --> 00:00:24,679 culture editor here at The Federalist. As always, you can email the show 3 00:00:24,719 --> 00:00:28,000 at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on accet, FDR, 4 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:31,519 LST, make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts, and of course 5 00:00:31,519 --> 00:00:35,359 to the premium version of our website as well. Today, I'm very excited 6 00:00:35,439 --> 00:00:38,960 to be joined by Brody Mullins. Brody is the author of the new book 7 00:00:39,039 --> 00:00:43,079 The Wolves of K Street, The Secret History of How Big Money took Over 8 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:48,200 Big Government. The book is as tantalizing as it sounds. It's a behemoth. 9 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:51,200 Brody. First of all, I just want to congratulate you on this 10 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:53,920 book, which you co wrote with your brother, and I just also wanted 11 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:56,520 to thank you for coming on the show. Definitely, thanks for having me. 12 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:00,719 It's a super fascinating topic. It's really important right now. Yeah, 13 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:03,359 absolutely. And you at the Wall Street Journal, I wanted to see if 14 00:01:03,359 --> 00:01:06,959 you could tell us a little bit about how you got into reporting on K 15 00:01:07,079 --> 00:01:08,760 Street just in the first place, you know, what led you down this 16 00:01:08,879 --> 00:01:15,000 path? Yeah, great question. So I'm one of those strange people who 17 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:19,000 are from Washington, DC. So I sort of grew up with politics in 18 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:22,480 my blood, and for some reason, I guess from having like the nightly 19 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:26,680 news on all the time and reading the Washington Post growing up, I kind 20 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:30,920 of fell into journalism. And when I grew up in high school and early 21 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:37,920 college, I wanted to be a political reporter, and I liked reading biographies 22 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:42,200 of presidential campaigns and White House actions and stuff. And by the time I 23 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:48,359 got around to being a graduate college and going into journalism, I was reading 24 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:52,319 the Wall Street Journal regularly. And the Journal, as you know, is 25 00:01:52,359 --> 00:01:56,000 a sort more of a business newspaper, and I get a little more down 26 00:01:56,000 --> 00:02:00,599 in the middle, and it wrote more about industry and companies and what companies 27 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:05,519 want in Washington than other papers, and I really like that. I those 28 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:08,319 were fascinating to see how companies try to interact, how to try to get 29 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:14,759 what they want in Washington using lobbyists and campaign donations. I always all the 30 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,080 stories was sort of smarter, and to me, they were more interesting and 31 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:22,680 they were just different. So I sort of gravitated toward trying to write stories 32 00:02:22,719 --> 00:02:27,159 about companies and what they wanted in Washington. So I was sort of doing 33 00:02:27,159 --> 00:02:30,159 that around the two thousands and ultimately got two the Walls of Journal, which 34 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:34,759 was a dream that the paper I always wanted to work at, and I've 35 00:02:34,759 --> 00:02:40,520 been covering business and lobbying and campaign money and scandal ever since. So this 36 00:02:40,599 --> 00:02:45,080 is actually fascinated and realized that you were one of the rare DC natives. 37 00:02:45,439 --> 00:02:51,719 But I'm curious also how you would describe the cultural changes in DC. I 38 00:02:51,719 --> 00:02:53,439 mean, this book is so rich with it, but just having grown up 39 00:02:53,439 --> 00:02:59,319 in d C the changes as lobbying, you kind of trace the arc of 40 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:02,039 lobbying and subhead of the book is literally the secret history of how big money 41 00:03:02,039 --> 00:03:07,520 took over big government. But DC itself seems to have been changed dramatically by 42 00:03:07,599 --> 00:03:09,400 lobbying. I moved here in twenty eleven. I feel like I saw a 43 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:13,319 lot of that, just with tech and the Obama administration, and you write 44 00:03:13,319 --> 00:03:16,120 about that. But having grown up and seen d C over the course of 45 00:03:16,199 --> 00:03:21,439 decades, how is lobbying maybe changed the culture of DC from your vantage point? 46 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:23,879 Yeah, that's a great question. I feel like, as you know, 47 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:30,039 Washington right now is an incredibly wealthy area, but it was always wealthier 48 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:32,639 than other parts of the country. I just feel like it's sort of like 49 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:37,280 on the steroids now. So when I grew up, it was more of 50 00:03:37,319 --> 00:03:39,280 a blue collar town. I mean, my parents work for the government and 51 00:03:39,319 --> 00:03:42,879 we get to you know, go to school and a board a car at 52 00:03:42,919 --> 00:03:45,159 a house. Whereas now, if you live in Washington, d C. 53 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:46,840 You know, you need to be a lobbyist to work for a company or 54 00:03:46,879 --> 00:03:51,159 make millions of dollars because real estate is so expensive and the cost of living 55 00:03:51,199 --> 00:03:53,039 is so expensive that no one can actually live, you know, anywhere close 56 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:57,719 to the city. But you know, I do remember reading in the Washington 57 00:03:57,759 --> 00:04:00,199 Post back then when I was like six, eight or eighth grade or sophomore 58 00:04:00,199 --> 00:04:04,000 in high school or something. You know, these stories once a year about 59 00:04:04,039 --> 00:04:09,680 how they're all the richest counties in the country were all around Washington, d 60 00:04:09,719 --> 00:04:13,159 C. They was sort of a ranking of the top ten wealthiest counties, 61 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:16,360 and it would always been you know, six or seven or five around Washington, 62 00:04:16,399 --> 00:04:20,639 d C. And that struck me as odd because we don't make anything 63 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:24,720 in Washington. I mean, these are wealthyes counties in San Francisco and in 64 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:28,639 Chicago and in New York, and those places make things and do things, 65 00:04:28,959 --> 00:04:31,040 and here in Washington at the end of each year, it took everything we 66 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,360 made or produced and you threw it into a bucket, there'd be nothing in 67 00:04:34,399 --> 00:04:39,839 the bucket. So all of this money comes from just lobbing and pushing legislation 68 00:04:39,959 --> 00:04:44,439 and words, you know, not actually producing widgets or cars or computers. 69 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:46,639 So that always sort of blew me away, sort of showed me, you 70 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:55,399 know, that the influence industry in Washington is enormous. This is going to 71 00:04:55,439 --> 00:05:00,519 make me sound maybe a little silly, but you're probably familiar with what tried 72 00:05:00,519 --> 00:05:03,399 to do with the Real Housewives of DC early in the Obama era because of 73 00:05:03,439 --> 00:05:08,360 the Salahis and I want to say, like Julianna Glover was in it, 74 00:05:08,439 --> 00:05:13,639 something like that one episode maybe, But it was interesting because it kind of 75 00:05:13,639 --> 00:05:17,079 caught DC in this moment between sort of Georgetown cocktail party d C and you 76 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:24,240 know, U Street luxury apartment buildings with you know, fancy restaurants that weren't 77 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:27,800 just expensive but were also really hip. And I wonder, I mean, 78 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:30,360 this is again someone who moved here in twenty eleven, so I haven't seen 79 00:05:30,399 --> 00:05:33,600 what you've seen, but it does seem like the tech money really also came 80 00:05:33,639 --> 00:05:36,720 in and changed the culture of d C from this the sort of sleepy Georgetown 81 00:05:36,759 --> 00:05:42,199 cocktail party circuit into something that was almost more fashionable during the Obama administration. 82 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,680 Yeah, I think that's right there. There's alway if you read your sort 83 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:49,639 of history and your society history of Washington has always been an element of high 84 00:05:49,639 --> 00:05:56,839 society and wealth in Washington. You know, ambassadors and corporate leaders who live 85 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:01,959 in Georgetown and had that Georgetown cocktail network. But now it's much more racy, 86 00:06:02,079 --> 00:06:05,199 like everyone has that kind of money and it's not just the Georgetown set 87 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:10,279 Bristy MacLean said, and the Cherry Jay said, and the U Street set, 88 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:12,560 you know, and Capitol Hiller was on and on and on. So 89 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,199 I think you're exactly right. I had to say, I wish I'd caught 90 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:19,360 up on my Real Wives. Real Housewives are Walking DC, But right around 91 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:25,360 then I had my first child. In my reality television consumption, as drops 92 00:06:25,399 --> 00:06:29,120 them sand Unfortunately you were in luck because they just added the whole season to 93 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:33,120 Peacock. That's a perfect time in well, actually you start this book around 94 00:06:33,319 --> 00:06:38,759 nineteen seventy two, but before you get to the early seventies, you're talking 95 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:42,759 about in some cases Federalists ten, you talk about the robber Baron era a 96 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,920 little bit and how it gave way to the progressive era. So if Brodie 97 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,000 you could start a little bit, maybe earlier than nineteen seventy two and tell 98 00:06:49,079 --> 00:06:56,399 us just maybe how Madison looked at this question of factions and then how technology 99 00:06:56,639 --> 00:07:00,920 in some ways you write about this just the country train changed so dramatic from 100 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,480 what it was when Federals ten was written and the Founders were envisioning this country 101 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:06,439 and riding the constitution. Can you tell to us a little bit about what 102 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:10,800 things looked like before we get to the modern era. Yeah, exactly. 103 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:15,800 So starting with the Federals papers is actually the right place right now? Or 104 00:07:15,839 --> 00:07:17,959 the lobbies are dominant in Washington, and you go back to the founding of 105 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:21,879 the country. The founders knew that they were going to be lobbies or what 106 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:27,879 they call factions. They knew that there would be tension between various factions try 107 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:31,279 to produce legislation in Washington. They knew that Congress didn't act in a vacuum 108 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:35,040 and the President didn't act in a vacuum, and so they foresaw that there 109 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:42,079 would be lobbies and forces trying to impact legislation. What they didn't see was 110 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:46,279 that, excuse me, what they didn't see that there could be an era 111 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:48,959 where there's just one faction that had dominant power, which is where we are 112 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:54,040 now. But what they saw and what did happen for most of our countries 113 00:07:54,600 --> 00:08:00,439 history, is that there were various sort of push and pull tensions that companies 114 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:05,279 would push for certain legislation and they would be opposed by unions or public interest 115 00:08:05,279 --> 00:08:11,160 groups or environmental groups or environmental groups to try to push for clean air legislation, 116 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:13,319 and companies and utilities would push back, and out of that tension, 117 00:08:13,319 --> 00:08:16,959 you sort of come up with a compromise. And that had existed all the 118 00:08:16,959 --> 00:08:20,959 way until a few decades ago, which we can get to later. But 119 00:08:22,079 --> 00:08:24,439 throughout history, there have been periods of time in which one faction, one 120 00:08:24,519 --> 00:08:30,399 interest group has had more power than the other. After during the Industrial Age, 121 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:33,600 we all know about the sort of the monopolists and the JP Morgans and 122 00:08:33,639 --> 00:08:39,720 the railroad titans, and you know, Standard Oil and the Robert barons who 123 00:08:39,759 --> 00:08:45,799 had tons and tons of power and influence over society and industry. But then 124 00:08:45,799 --> 00:08:50,200 that was counteracted a few years later during the New Deal by the government exerting 125 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:56,399 power and creating antitrust law and pro competition law and banning monopolies for the first 126 00:08:56,399 --> 00:09:01,919 time, giving the government the tools to to reign in big monopolis, and 127 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:07,919 creating for the first time the Federal Trade Commission to do so. From about 128 00:09:07,919 --> 00:09:13,240 the nineteen thirties through lbg's Great Society was a period which consumer groups had tons 129 00:09:13,279 --> 00:09:16,840 of power. Ralph Nader at one point was maybe the most influential person in 130 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:22,759 Washington. He took on then one of the biggest companies in the country, 131 00:09:22,879 --> 00:09:26,120 General Motors, and defeated them. That's how much power consumer groups had. 132 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:31,039 And so during that period from the nineteen thirties to the nineteen seventies, the 133 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:37,000 government grew very very quickly. Tons of new departments and agencies, created tons 134 00:09:37,039 --> 00:09:43,600 of new regulations. And interesting thing about that period is that this wasn't democrats 135 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:50,320 or liberals pushing or labor groups pushing this sort of liberal policies. Everyone sort 136 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:54,919 of generally agreed. Companies agreed with the creation of some of these new departments. 137 00:09:54,039 --> 00:09:56,840 Companies thought, you know, there should be more regulation year there, 138 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:00,360 and they were making a lot of money so that they didn't really care and 139 00:10:00,399 --> 00:10:03,360 By the way, Republicans, who didn't have much power during this period, 140 00:10:03,639 --> 00:10:05,960 also agreed with the creation of much of the government, not all of it, 141 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:11,360 but lots of it. For example, the EPA, the environment Environmental 142 00:10:11,399 --> 00:10:16,600 Protection Agency, was created by Richard Nixon with the board of companies and Republicans. 143 00:10:18,159 --> 00:10:22,120 What change was in the nineteen seventies. The economy collapsed and inflation went 144 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:26,679 up. We had stagnation, company profits plummeted, and all of a sudden, 145 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:30,399 corporate CEOs looked around and said, wait a second, we're not making 146 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,840 any money anymore. What's going on? And they saw all these rules and 147 00:10:33,919 --> 00:10:39,440 regulations coming out of Washington that had cost them lots of money, that had 148 00:10:39,519 --> 00:10:43,240 constrained their growth, and companies said, we need to fight back. So, 149 00:10:43,399 --> 00:10:48,360 like any smart business people, they started investing in Washington through lobbyists and 150 00:10:48,399 --> 00:10:54,720 campaign donations to one push against the creation of new regulations, but also to 151 00:10:54,759 --> 00:11:00,519 push back on the regulation that had been created. So at that point started 152 00:11:00,639 --> 00:11:05,080 getting more power and influence, and over the next few decades they pushed labor 153 00:11:05,159 --> 00:11:09,720 unions almost to oblivion. Ralph Nader is no longer a force. Consumer groups 154 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:15,279 don't have much influence and ENVIRONMLS groups don't have much influence. So now you 155 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:20,679 have companies that are incredibly powerful and there's really no one pushing back against them. 156 00:11:20,919 --> 00:11:24,600 And that's where the situation we're in now, where companies have tremendous influence 157 00:11:24,759 --> 00:11:28,559 and no one else does. It's yet right there that is such a like 158 00:11:28,759 --> 00:11:33,960 incredibly interesting I don't know shift, but even the fact that it is a 159 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:37,200 shift is sort of interesting in and of itself, and I want to ask 160 00:11:37,279 --> 00:11:41,320 a little bit about that. I also, though, was reading a Jacobin 161 00:11:41,399 --> 00:11:46,240 review of the new David Lenhart book as I was reading your book, and 162 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:50,039 one of the points Lenheart makes, according to this review, at least I 163 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:54,720 find really compelling, which is that there was also this sense of patriotism, 164 00:11:54,759 --> 00:12:01,759 maybe this sort of subjective sense of patriotism or sense of personal dignity, responsibility, 165 00:12:01,759 --> 00:12:05,600 pride that used to exist sort of among the c suite crowd that at 166 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,559 some point, maybe around mid century, started to shift to the nineteen eighties 167 00:12:09,639 --> 00:12:16,519 kind of Gordon Getck goo I Rand on steroids type of approach to Washington, 168 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:20,279 type of approach to Wall Street. Do you see any of that, Brody, 169 00:12:20,279 --> 00:12:22,399 Because even just as you were explaining that shift that happened, you know, 170 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:26,480 turning towards these regulations that were pushed by considered shumer groups, been Ralph 171 00:12:26,519 --> 00:12:30,879 Nader when the economy got bad, almost to escapegoat them, or to say 172 00:12:30,919 --> 00:12:35,840 we can kind of tinker here by infusing cash onto Capitol Hill. Do you 173 00:12:35,879 --> 00:12:39,879 think the culture, even just the corporate culture changed. Is that part of 174 00:12:39,919 --> 00:12:43,200 this year one hundred percent? Right? Do we have a little bit that 175 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,720 in our book. I didn't mention my last answer so always I thought I 176 00:12:46,759 --> 00:12:48,279 was being too long winded as it was. But you're value right. The 177 00:12:50,159 --> 00:12:54,159 companies fell from the nineteen forties to the nineteen seventies. That you know that 178 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:56,919 we're all sort of together, and we're on the same team. You sponsored 179 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:01,679 a littleague team, you're a good corporate citizen. You look out for your 180 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:05,399 employees, you help them with wages. Everyone was sort of on the same 181 00:13:05,399 --> 00:13:09,480 team and in the same community. And that did change in nineteen seventies. 182 00:13:09,519 --> 00:13:13,600 I think two things happened, you know, one that I mentioned, which 183 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:16,840 is that companies started not making money. And also once they weren't making money, 184 00:13:16,879 --> 00:13:22,360 they weren't really in the same sort of mood or viewpoint to help everyone 185 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:26,679 out there sort of out for themselves. Around that time, this was really 186 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:31,559 interesting. The Business Roundtable, which represents one hundred or two hundred of the 187 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:37,039 biggest CEOs in the country, said that the mission statement of companies should be 188 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:41,200 to help shareholders, and that was the change from before when part of the 189 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:46,559 mission the company was to help their employees and be good corporate citizens. If 190 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:52,200 your number one goal is to help shareholders and increase your stock price, well, 191 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:54,600 all of a sudden, that shifts your mentality about you know, whether 192 00:13:54,639 --> 00:13:58,279 you do spend money sponsoring the litle league team. Maybe that's not a good 193 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:01,879 use of resources. Vesting in your community is not a good idea. Maybe 194 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:07,320 increasing wages for your employees is not smart. So companies really started focusing on 195 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:11,200 shareholders. That led directly to the nineteen eightiesphory that you're talking about, where 196 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:18,600 companies were cutthroat and try to increase revenues and really cut costs. You fight 197 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:24,279 back against government regulations that were a huge source of business costs. What's really 198 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:26,639 in truting to me is if you jump forward just a couple of years ago, 199 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:33,519 the Business Roundtable change that motto and said the shareholders are no longer should 200 00:14:33,519 --> 00:14:37,799 be their top concern. Shareholder interest should be age concerned, but not the 201 00:14:37,919 --> 00:14:41,519 total concern of company, and that reflects maybe a little bit of a shifting 202 00:14:41,759 --> 00:14:50,559 back in how companies operate in the country. Now, all right, today's 203 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:54,039 episode is brought to you by surf Shark. Surf Shark is a cyber security 204 00:14:54,240 --> 00:15:00,879 tool that really improves your online privacy and also protects you from hackers. So 205 00:15:00,919 --> 00:15:03,000 how does surf Shark do that. Well, their main product is a VPN, 206 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:07,639 So basically it acts as a protective shield and it hides your IP address 207 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:13,840 so that everything you're doing online stays private, whether that's just reading the news, 208 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:16,679 googling some dodgy info, which, let me tell you, as a 209 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:20,080 journalist, I have been there streaming some shows, listening to podcasts, or 210 00:15:20,159 --> 00:15:24,559 anything else it stays private. 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If you can't access maybe one website that lets you buy limited 219 00:15:58,759 --> 00:16:03,840 dish sneakers, you can again use the serf Shark VPN. So try serf 220 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:10,080 Shark today, totally risk free with a thirty day money back guarantee. Get 221 00:16:10,159 --> 00:16:15,440 surf Shark VPN at surf shark dot deals slash Federalist, enter promo code Federalist 222 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:19,519 for three extra months for free. You heard me right, that's three extra 223 00:16:19,559 --> 00:16:27,519 months for free that serf Shark dot deals slash Federalist. And now, were 224 00:16:27,559 --> 00:16:32,159 there any legal shifts? Yeah, for people who haven't read the book, 225 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:37,000 were there any legal shifts around the time of the nineteen seventies just in the 226 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:41,840 law because the cultural stuff is super interesting and I think probably underappreciated. But 227 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:45,720 what changed when it came to people's ability to actually lobby in the way that 228 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:51,080 we kind of understand it now in the early seventies, Yeah, a couple 229 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:56,279 of things happened. The most important was Waterby in nineteen seventy four, after 230 00:16:57,559 --> 00:17:00,679 Nixon had left the White House, or about the time that Nicky left the 231 00:17:00,679 --> 00:17:07,359 White House the country. The voters responded to this scandal by electing one hundred 232 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:14,079 new reformist members of Congress who came to Washington to change the system. The 233 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:18,039 people. The American people did not want a president have so much power the 234 00:17:18,039 --> 00:17:22,480 way Nixon did, so Congress passed a series of laws intended to reform Washington. 235 00:17:25,559 --> 00:17:27,960 Among the things they did was take power from the presidency and move it 236 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:33,799 to Congress, and then even make Congress more democratic, as in before the 237 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:38,200 nineteen seventies, there was really only two people in Congress who mattered, the 238 00:17:38,279 --> 00:17:42,440 House Speaker and the Senate Majority Leader. And for fifty years, those were 239 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:45,920 men, and those were Democrats, and they were the only people who mattered. 240 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:52,920 After nineteen seventy four, Congress created a bunch of committees, and it 241 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:56,160 created subcommittees, and it created subcommittees, and almost everyone on Capitol Hill was 242 00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:00,599 either the top Republican non committee or the top Democratic out on committee. In 243 00:18:00,599 --> 00:18:03,440 fact, one of the lobbyists who we write about who's named it, Tommy 244 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:07,160 Boggs, who we consider that it'd be one of the first modern lobbyists. 245 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:10,599 He joked it, when you went up to Capitol Hill and yelled out, 246 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:14,680 hey, mister chairman, after people in Congress would turn around because someone because 247 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:18,160 they all of them were the chairman of some committee or some subcommittee somewhere. 248 00:18:19,079 --> 00:18:22,279 So Congress really made power and diffuse. And what that meant for lobbying is 249 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:29,319 before that period, lobbyists like Tommy Bobbs I just mentioned could be incredibly successful 250 00:18:29,319 --> 00:18:30,759 if they knew the president, if they knew the Speaker of the House, 251 00:18:30,799 --> 00:18:34,440 and if they knew the Senate majority leader. After nineteen seventy four, you 252 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,680 had know hundreds of people to get anything done. And that sort of created 253 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:44,680 an error where lobbyists proliferated because before a company could hire one lobbyist who knew 254 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:48,039 those three important people. Afterwards you needed to hire dozens of lobbies or scores 255 00:18:48,079 --> 00:18:52,559 a lobbyist to have relationships with all the important members of Congress in Washington. 256 00:18:53,599 --> 00:18:56,799 And this is kind of skipping ahead a little bit, but it's so related 257 00:18:56,799 --> 00:18:59,319 to what you just said. One of the points I really loved that you 258 00:18:59,319 --> 00:19:03,440 made in the book is mentioned how at the dawn of Tony Podesta's lobbying career. 259 00:19:03,279 --> 00:19:07,279 One of the benefits he brought to lobbying operations is that he also could 260 00:19:07,279 --> 00:19:11,759 be taken seriously by Republicans or he had access to Republicans. And maybe some 261 00:19:11,799 --> 00:19:15,119 people don't realize that's the case with Abbing And you can speak to this a 262 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:21,160 little bit, Brodie, that lobbyists are in some sense the last vestige of 263 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,880 old Washington right now, and that they really do have access good ones, 264 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:29,000 have access to people on both sides of the aisle. How true is that 265 00:19:29,039 --> 00:19:33,039 still today, though, because just since Trump things have gotten much more embittered 266 00:19:33,079 --> 00:19:38,240 in Washington, it seems to me like they're still creatures like that haunting k 267 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:42,119 Street. Though. Yeah, I mean you sorted to remember, for you 268 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:48,839 know, our time, from the nineteen thirties to the nineteen eighties, Democrats, 269 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:53,799 to say ninety to the to the two Democrats were the only party in 270 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:57,519 town. Democrats had huge majorities in the House and Senate for fifty years. 271 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:00,559 So if you were a lot or of you're a company and you wanted to 272 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:04,519 hire someone to represent you, you want to hire someone who's in with Democrats. 273 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:08,920 Republicans like almost didn't matter. That has now changed in the last twenty 274 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,960 years in our lifetimes, because it seems like every election, you know, 275 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:15,920 the Republicans take over, the Democrats come back, or the Republicans take over 276 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:19,079 how many times with Nancy Pelosi's Speaker of the House, the minority leader, 277 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:25,200 then back and forth and back and forth again this election. So therefore companies 278 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,160 say, hey, we can't just put all our eggs in the Republican basket 279 00:20:27,279 --> 00:20:32,599 or the Democratic basket. You need to hire a lobbing team or a lobbing 280 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:37,680 firm. There's connections on both sides. Therefore, almost every lobbying firm, 281 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:41,559 although not all of them, I mean ninety nine percent, have Republicans and 282 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:45,799 Democrats. They can sort of serve both sides. Another thing to keep in 283 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:48,759 mind know is that just from the way Congress works, the way Congress is 284 00:20:48,799 --> 00:20:52,039 set up with checks and balances, and how hard it is for a building, 285 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:56,960 from a law that even if Republicans are in charge, it's important to 286 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:02,720 have connections to Democrats because it's very to block legislation. So even a Democrat 287 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:04,519 in the minority or Republican in the minority, who may not have seem to 288 00:21:04,519 --> 00:21:08,559 have much power, can block legislation in the Senate. For example, you 289 00:21:08,599 --> 00:21:14,160 can have ninety nine senators supporting piece of legislation, and if one is upposed, 290 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:18,799 literally one senator can hold up in delay in an important pizza legislation. 291 00:21:18,079 --> 00:21:22,720 So the point is that companies want to have both Overholing and Democrats to be 292 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,000 connected to as many people as possible. And that's a change from most of 293 00:21:26,039 --> 00:21:30,720 the last century when you really only need to know Democrats. So interesting, 294 00:21:30,759 --> 00:21:34,000 well, actually speaking of that, I want to get to black Man Affort 295 00:21:34,079 --> 00:21:37,319 obviously in just a bit, but I also want to start with you, 296 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:41,400 Corcoran Bogs. And the way you write about the sort of modern era and 297 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:45,720 lobbying is that coming out of the era of big government sort of new deal 298 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:52,480 reforms, you new agencies, or the country is changing in so many ways 299 00:21:52,039 --> 00:21:56,799 and Democrats really start to correct me if I'm wrong, But Democrats really start 300 00:21:56,839 --> 00:22:03,119 to organize this industry, this lobbying industry sort of kind of figure out how 301 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:07,400 money can be made in the system because they understand and are in some ways, 302 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:12,920 you know, sympathetic to the big government designs that they've been a part 303 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:15,839 of in some respects. Can you talk to us a little bit about maybe 304 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:19,880 Corkoran. You mentioned Bogs a little bit already, but Quirkoran, you know, 305 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:22,559 in the book, is described as a mega loobbyist. I think that's 306 00:22:22,559 --> 00:22:26,920 actually a quote from someone describing Corkoran. Can you just talk to us a 307 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,759 little bit about how people coming out of that New Deal era, typically Democrats. 308 00:22:32,079 --> 00:22:36,000 I'm sure there were some Republicans too, but typically Democrats started to figure 309 00:22:36,039 --> 00:22:40,759 out what could be done in this space. Yeah, so it's super interesting. 310 00:22:40,839 --> 00:22:45,759 So again, before nineteen seventy four, in the Wartergate reforms, there 311 00:22:45,799 --> 00:22:48,599 was only a handful of members of Commons, handful of people in Washington who 312 00:22:48,759 --> 00:22:52,319 made laws, and it was the president of this view of the House and 313 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:59,279 the sentimentory leader and back starting in the New Deal was wanted. Also, 314 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,960 the White House was tiny, I mean FBR had a staffed with like five 315 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:07,640 And when those people left the White House and a few of them decided to 316 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:11,160 become a lobbyists, they were incredibly powerful because you were the person. You 317 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:15,200 were the first person who saw FDR in the morning, You made him lunch, 318 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,640 you played cards to them, you had drinks of them, you know, 319 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:21,000 you put it in bed at night. You were wired to the most 320 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,559 important person in the country. So if you leave and become a lobbyist, 321 00:23:23,839 --> 00:23:26,400 these guys made tons of money, or there weren't that many of them. 322 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,200 There's is not that many people who worked from the White House, and not 323 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,920 many people had that relationship, and not that many people then tried to cash 324 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:37,920 in on it. Tommy Corkan was one of them. Tommy Corkman was probably 325 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:42,680 the most powerful lobbyist in Washington from the nineteen thirties through the sixties or so. 326 00:23:44,279 --> 00:23:48,799 There's a few other figures like him, including Clark Clifford, who worked 327 00:23:48,839 --> 00:23:52,519 in the as I say, the Truman administration, really worked for Truman in 328 00:23:52,559 --> 00:23:56,160 the Truman White House and he became a huge lobbyist. And then our book 329 00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:02,160 kind of starts with Tommy Boggs, and Tommy Boggs the first modern lobbyist because 330 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:07,599 while he was around before the Watergate reforms and he sort of represented the old 331 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,400 system where he knew the president, he worked for LBJ. He also knew 332 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,680 the Speaker of the House because the Spait House will come to his house all 333 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,759 the time. Because Tommy Wogg's father was a member of Congress, and when 334 00:24:17,759 --> 00:24:23,480 Tommy Wogg's father disappeared in a presumably plane crash in Alaska. His mom was 335 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,720 elected to be on a member of Homers, So Tommy Wogg's mom and dad 336 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:32,319 were both members of Congress. He's the ultimate insider, but then he straddled 337 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:38,200 this era after Watergate, when that system changed and Congress becomes more democratic and 338 00:24:38,279 --> 00:24:42,279 powers more diffuse and bogs. Then though he knows the three most important people, 339 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,559 but he also knows the sub comittee chairman, and he knows the committee 340 00:24:45,599 --> 00:24:51,640 ranking member, and he knew all those folks, so he's still stay powerful. 341 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:53,839 And what our book talks about is that that system sort of the relationship, 342 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:59,000 the cozy relationships between members of Congress and lobbyists, they were built on 343 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:03,039 campaign donations and state dinners. That error is coming to an end. And 344 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,519 what black Man, Ward and Stone represents in our book, we can talk 345 00:25:06,559 --> 00:25:08,839 about them, and some of the other lobbies write out it's how lobbing is 346 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:14,960 now much more sophisticated, is less about cutting inside our deals and more about 347 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,640 trying to manipulate public opinion. Yes, let's definitely talk about that, and 348 00:25:18,799 --> 00:25:23,319 especially I wanted to get you Brody to talk about the Bethlehem Steel example, 349 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:30,720 because I actually did not understand the dynamics fully behind the scenes with the Reagan 350 00:25:30,839 --> 00:25:34,200 era policy and Bethlehem and Steel. But with Bethlehem Steel, but even before 351 00:25:34,279 --> 00:25:38,359 New Gingerti's hostile takeover, you have black Man for it, and of course 352 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:42,359 Stone and Atwater, and you write about this brilliantly in the book coming into 353 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,640 the Picture. So could you tell u us a little bit about what they 354 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:47,720 figured out? I mean, people should bought the book to get the whole 355 00:25:47,759 --> 00:25:49,200 story, but tell us a little bit about what they figured out. Yeah. 356 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,960 So again, part is what we were talking about the rise of corporate 357 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:56,519 power, and part was talking about how lobbing has changed. And this example 358 00:25:56,559 --> 00:26:00,640 sort of showed how lobbing has changed. So in the nineteen eightiesviously, Ronald 359 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:07,799 Reagan is elected and for the first time a Republican is president, in the 360 00:26:07,839 --> 00:26:11,880 first time in a while, I could say, and companies think, oh 361 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,200 crap, you know, we don't know any Republicans. We don't know people 362 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:18,680 who have ends with the Reagan administration, and said they looked to Paul Manniford, 363 00:26:19,039 --> 00:26:22,599 Charlie Black and Roger Stone, who were three guys who worked on Reagan's 364 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:27,359 campaign both in nineteen seventy six. I should say and in nineteen eighty so 365 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:32,720 they went way back with Reagan and they were campaign consultants and they were used 366 00:26:32,759 --> 00:26:37,400 to working president of campaigns or Senate campaigns, where the idea is to get 367 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,680 fifty one percent of the someone's constituents to vote for your guy and you win. 368 00:26:41,279 --> 00:26:45,759 So, after Reagan is elected and companies are looking for people connected to 369 00:26:45,799 --> 00:26:51,960 Reagan to hire his lobbyists, Paul Manafort and Charlie Black say, well, 370 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:56,599 we should be lobbyists. So they started lobbying firm and they start getting hired 371 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:00,400 by big companies, and they did have those insidernction that Tommy Bobs had. 372 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,880 But what they also knew is they were campaign people, so they knew how 373 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:11,000 to go out in state and try to generate support from regular citizens for causes. 374 00:27:11,079 --> 00:27:12,200 In this case, instead of trying to elect a president, they were 375 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,119 trying to pass the law. It was the same idea. They get the 376 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:18,920 support of fifty one percent of the constituents or voters, they thought they could 377 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:23,519 win on behalf of their client. In the case of bethlen and Steel during 378 00:27:23,519 --> 00:27:29,480 the nineteen eighties, Reagan as president Bethlen Steel, one of the largest US 379 00:27:29,519 --> 00:27:34,119 steel manufacturers, back in the day when our country was manufacturing and industrial economy, 380 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,440 which it's obviously not anymore. But Bethlyine Steel was sort of a champion 381 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:44,039 of US industry and they were kind of almost a They were a great resentation 382 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:48,279 of American manufacturing might. But they were facing a big problem, which is 383 00:27:48,319 --> 00:27:55,839 that foreign countries and foreign companies were dumping steel in the US at below market 384 00:27:55,839 --> 00:28:00,000 prices, and that was causing Bethlem Steel a problem because people were buying cheaper 385 00:28:00,039 --> 00:28:04,599 foreign steel and not Bethlin Steel's products. So they hired black Man, Word 386 00:28:04,559 --> 00:28:08,559 and Stone in front of Block. They basically wanted to create terrorists or impoort 387 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:14,680 quotas to stop foreign countries from dumping cheap steel in the US. And so 388 00:28:14,839 --> 00:28:18,359 one thing one of the things that black Man, black Maniport and Stone could 389 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,119 have done have just gone to the Reagan administration or gone to the Commerce Secretary 390 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:26,599 and said, hey, can you impose quotas or terrorists? But instead of 391 00:28:26,599 --> 00:28:30,359 what it is that, they said, hey, let's go around and get 392 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:36,000 steel workers and union leaders and the steel CEOs and executives to do the lobbying 393 00:28:36,039 --> 00:28:38,640 for US. So they had these folks come to Washington make the pitches themselves 394 00:28:40,039 --> 00:28:44,200 to the Commerce Secretary and to other important people in the Reagan administration. And 395 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:48,680 the idea was the commerce sector might listen to Charlie Black and POLM Manford, 396 00:28:48,839 --> 00:28:52,920 but they're really going to listen to the union leaders and to the companies themselves. 397 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:56,000 And a sort of a genius lobbying strategies to put the companies and the 398 00:28:56,039 --> 00:29:00,640 real American workers at the front center of a lot campaign. And it representative 399 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:07,000 of a shit from lobbying. We using old school relationship tactics to kind of 400 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:12,160 using constituents and using American workers and union workers to get a job done. 401 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:19,640 For corporations, Biden has to spend even more of your kids and grandkids credit 402 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:23,720 cards. The Watchdout on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day Chris 403 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,640 helps unpack the connection between politics and the economy and how it affects your wallet. 404 00:29:27,759 --> 00:29:33,160 After last week's poor GDP numbers, it's gonna be much harder for businesses 405 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,599 to grow. We don't need economists to lie for us on TV. We 406 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:40,480 see stagflation on the ground. Whether it's happening in DC or down on Wall 407 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:42,519 Street, it's affecting you financially. Be informed. Check out the Watchdout on 408 00:29:42,559 --> 00:29:47,200 Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your 409 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:55,880 podcasts, and that you know, there's something I'm really interested to hear a 410 00:29:55,920 --> 00:30:03,720 perspective on how ideologically maybe both the left and the right justify these types of 411 00:30:03,759 --> 00:30:07,920 adventures in lobbying. Do you think I don't mean this as a leading question, 412 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,640 do you think in some respects and you're right about Citizens United? I 413 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:15,319 think this might be maybe the most obvious example from Mitch McConnell. But also 414 00:30:15,359 --> 00:30:17,480 you know, if you look at like Rusfine Gold and John McCain on the 415 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:23,920 other side of this, how have maybe some how has support for some of 416 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:33,079 this activity morphed into or become baked into the ideological sort of cosmology of either 417 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,440 the left or the right, I mean the right. It's most obvious on 418 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:38,759 the right that they repeatedly justify this, but even on the left, you 419 00:30:38,799 --> 00:30:44,880 know you John Podesta was the Clinton campaign chairman, while Tony Podesta was as 420 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,279 you right about, heavily involved in the Ukraine lobbying back in you know this 421 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,960 like twenty twelve, when that whole thing first started. Has it become baked 422 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:56,240 into the ideologies of the left and the right in some respect to kind of 423 00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:00,720 justify the shift that starts around the early seventy Yeah, I think one of 424 00:31:00,759 --> 00:31:07,359 these the companies did start in nineteen seventies is to invest in both local parties. 425 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:11,640 They didn't just say, hey, the Republicans are more naturally our allies 426 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:18,279 because they are for open competition and for limiting government regulation, for lowering taxes 427 00:31:18,319 --> 00:31:22,200 and free trade. They went after Democrats also, and using campaign contributions and 428 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:26,720 connections, they created a pro business center that existed for forty years. I 429 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:32,400 mean, there are some policies where until recently there weren't that many differences between 430 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:36,680 a Republican and a Democrat. Take trade, I mean, most members of 431 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:42,319 Congress Republican Democrats supported free trade for thirty years, and that's changing now. 432 00:31:45,359 --> 00:31:48,279 In the last thirty years they have been starting nineteen eighty six, there have 433 00:31:48,279 --> 00:31:55,720 been several major tax cuts for individuals and corporation, no huge tax increases during 434 00:31:55,759 --> 00:31:59,480 that time. And that's the period when Republicans are president, Democrats are president. 435 00:31:59,519 --> 00:32:02,680 Republicans control house, Democrats control house. So companies create a pro business 436 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:09,039 center on both sides in order to create pro industry positions, to push unions 437 00:32:09,079 --> 00:32:12,640 out, to lower taxes, to open up free trade, and to try 438 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:19,119 to stop government regulations. What seems to be changing now is that more and 439 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:24,079 more Republicans and Democrats are on the extreme ends of the party are turning against 440 00:32:24,079 --> 00:32:30,119 corporate America. A fascinating thing to me is this I think started around the 441 00:32:30,119 --> 00:32:32,559 time Trump was elected, but a little bit before in the Republican Party, 442 00:32:32,559 --> 00:32:37,559 where the party become more populist and more anti corporate. And I think the 443 00:32:37,599 --> 00:32:44,599 fascinating example to me is in the twenty sixteen election when Bernie Sanders, is 444 00:32:44,599 --> 00:32:49,240 on the far left of the political ideology, is coming out against free trade 445 00:32:49,279 --> 00:32:52,079 and saying we need to get readied free trade deals because moving American jobs overseas. 446 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:58,319 And I think a lot of Republicans would see Bernie Sanders as a nut. 447 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,319 But then all of a sudden, Donald Trump said, you know, 448 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:05,640 he's right, we shouldn't have these free trade bills. Why are we helping 449 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,599 China? Why are we helping these foreign companies and countries, And why we're 450 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:13,640 allowing US companies to move jobs there wereseas they should stay here. And that 451 00:33:13,799 --> 00:33:15,599 was sort of amazing for a Republican Party, the Party of Reagan, to 452 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:19,440 turn against free trade, you know, a central tenant of the Republican Party. 453 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,960 What was more amazing is in the response to that, Hillary Clinton then 454 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,880 said I'm against free trade also. So all of a sudden, you had 455 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:30,920 Trump and Hillary Clinton, the two major political candidates of the Patiant election, 456 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:35,359 both against free trade for the first time, studying on the Republican side because 457 00:33:35,359 --> 00:33:38,920 it's the Party of Reagan, and free trade studying on the Democrats side because 458 00:33:39,119 --> 00:33:44,400 the free trade agreements that Hillary Clinton was opposed to were her husband's bill. 459 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,000 Clinton supported all those pre trade deals also. So there really has been a 460 00:33:47,119 --> 00:33:53,119 change in the last five or six years when it comes to the viewpoints of 461 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:57,720 the Republican and Democratic parties on corporate America. And I'm really fascinated to see 462 00:33:57,759 --> 00:34:00,960 where this goes in next five or ten years. Yeah, that's one of 463 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:02,839 the questions I had for you, is just specifically on the right, you 464 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,280 have you quote Senator marciaal blackburns somethings she wrote in The Wall Street Journal about 465 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:12,880 how Republicans you're no longer going to sit back and sort of on the sidelines 466 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,920 as big business does X Y and z and this something we've covered a lot 467 00:34:15,039 --> 00:34:19,400 here. But how durable do you think that is? Honestly, I love 468 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,239 to see it, but I'm incredibly skeptical that it lasts very long, even 469 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:27,559 though there are some like pretty substantive, robust efforts to splinter off from the 470 00:34:27,639 --> 00:34:30,960 Chamber of Commerce and create you know, new anti chamber of commerce but pro 471 00:34:30,079 --> 00:34:35,239 business type groups. And there's lots of stuff happening here. You know, 472 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,559 based on what you've seen so far, Brodie, is this real or is 473 00:34:38,599 --> 00:34:43,280 it like a lot of talk that might have some influence, But at the 474 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,000 end of the day, you know, you're still going to have Republicans basically 475 00:34:46,039 --> 00:34:51,320 representing big business interests if those big business interests, you know, happen to 476 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:53,760 be let's say, automakers or something that's you know, kind of against the 477 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:59,639 green energy push, anything like that. So I think you're asking the most 478 00:34:59,639 --> 00:35:04,199 important question of our time, in fact, so important that I want to 479 00:35:04,199 --> 00:35:09,079 write another book and it's about what you're talking about, because I don't know 480 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:15,519 there is definitely a change the fact that Republicans are against free trade, and 481 00:35:15,599 --> 00:35:20,280 the fact that Republicans, not just Donald Trump, you know, mainstream Republicans 482 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:24,960 are attacking big business. One example that you probably know, the US Chamber 483 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:31,400 of Commerce represents business in America. They are the nation's biggest business organization and 484 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:36,400 lobby in Washington, and for my entire time in Washington, they have worked 485 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,800 in lockstep with Republicans in Congress because Republicans and big business are on the same 486 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:45,039 team. And when I covered John Bayner when he was a House Speaker, 487 00:35:45,119 --> 00:35:47,760 he had a weekly lunch with the top people at the Chamber of Commerce and 488 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:52,519 some other big industry lobbies. We literally plot strategy together. Okay, we're 489 00:35:52,519 --> 00:35:53,440 going to pass a tax bill. How are we going to do it? 490 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:55,760 Who should we talk to? Like what levers do we need to do, 491 00:35:57,039 --> 00:35:59,440 What do we need to do to work together to get this tax bill pass 492 00:35:59,639 --> 00:36:02,800 or this regulation or whatever. They were on the same team. And now 493 00:36:04,119 --> 00:36:08,000 the top Republicans in Congress say that people from the US Chamber Commerce are not 494 00:36:08,039 --> 00:36:12,559 allowed in their office. They refuse to talk to them. That's how bad 495 00:36:12,599 --> 00:36:15,639 the split is between the Chamber of Commerce and the Republican Party. And that 496 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:21,519 is stunning to me. So that's just one example. If you look in 497 00:36:21,559 --> 00:36:27,320 the Senate, there are several bills being proposed right now by Elizabeth Warren. 498 00:36:28,159 --> 00:36:36,599 One of them is to help unions grow. Another is to cap the fees 499 00:36:36,639 --> 00:36:42,800 the credit card companies cap credit card interest rates on consumers, and another is 500 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:46,880 to claw back bonuses for banking executives if those banks fail. Each of those 501 00:36:47,159 --> 00:36:53,000 piece of legislation is cosmonpted by Republicans, including Josh Holly of Missouri. I 502 00:36:53,039 --> 00:36:59,559 mean, the fact that a Republican would work with was born on anything is 503 00:36:59,599 --> 00:37:04,840 studying, but then to work on legislation that hurts credit card company or hurts 504 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:09,039 our financial services company and helps a consumer. It's just not something that the 505 00:37:09,039 --> 00:37:12,840 Republican Party used to do, but it's happening more and more and more. 506 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,320 I'll give you one more example. A year and a half ago, there 507 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:20,280 was a bill in Congress that would increase the fees on big companies that were 508 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:24,800 merging in order to give the FTC more resources to hire more lawyers and hire 509 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:30,519 more litigators, and hire more regulators to review big corporate murders. And so 510 00:37:30,559 --> 00:37:35,519 this is basically giving money from companies to the government, making the government figure 511 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:40,039 in order to crack down on corporate murders. And thirty nine House Republicans supported 512 00:37:40,039 --> 00:37:44,960 that bill which became law. Thirty nine Republicans supported a bill to give the 513 00:37:45,039 --> 00:37:49,880 FTC more power. That's crazy. Again, I'm saying it's crazy because they're 514 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,760 just different from helping used to be. But it seems like that's where we're 515 00:37:52,840 --> 00:38:00,360 moving. And every time you have a traditional Republican Chamber of Commerce, Ronald 516 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:07,639 Reagan Republican leave Congress, you have a more populist member replace them. And 517 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:12,840 look at Rob Cortman who left uh the seat in Decentcy to Ohio copy or 518 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,599 replaced by JD. Vans. That seems to happen time and time again. 519 00:38:15,679 --> 00:38:20,559 So I agree with you. I don't know how far this is going to 520 00:38:20,559 --> 00:38:22,920 go, and I'm a little skeptical, but if you just look at the 521 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,519 evidence, we keep moving in that direction. You know, even the Reagan 522 00:38:25,519 --> 00:38:30,840 thing is such an interesting arc for the Republican Party because you write about Goldwater, 523 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,000 and Reagan was obviously electrified by Goldwater and was seen as this kind of 524 00:38:34,039 --> 00:38:38,079 upstart renegade. But then you have you have like black Manafort coming in and 525 00:38:38,119 --> 00:38:44,480 sort of baking into the new ideology of these people who are you even quote 526 00:38:44,519 --> 00:38:46,519 Stone in the book talking about how he was super animated I think he says 527 00:38:46,559 --> 00:38:51,920 I became a Zealot when he heard Barry goldwan And speak. And then what 528 00:38:52,079 --> 00:38:55,719 gets baked into that ideology. And Maniford is such a good example, you 529 00:38:55,760 --> 00:39:00,679 know, the you have an epilogue in the book that's just profoundly depressing because 530 00:39:01,199 --> 00:39:04,719 Manifol, it's really one of the only people that's face consequences for this, 531 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,920 and maybe Brody you can talk a little bit too about what consequences have you 532 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:13,519 know, come upon, Like Tony Pedessa is a really good example. Obviously, 533 00:39:13,599 --> 00:39:15,440 the Pedesta group is no longer, so that's a pretty stiff consequence. 534 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:21,400 But it does seem like, you know, just businesses as usual. People 535 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:23,760 are kind of ducking and maybe starting to be a little bit lower profile. 536 00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:29,320 But it's amazing how even on the right, some of this became just baked 537 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:31,719 in the ideology. Then it goes to Citizens United and it becomes about free 538 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:37,639 speech and patriotism and Americanism to just let big business, you know, run 539 00:39:37,199 --> 00:39:44,000 rampant through American culture and life and communities and all of that. And here 540 00:39:44,039 --> 00:39:45,159 we are, and it's like Paul Manifor, it seems to be one of 541 00:39:45,199 --> 00:39:52,440 the only people who's been facing any serious consequences for that shift on the right 542 00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:53,960 at least. Well, you know, there's so much talk about here, 543 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:59,039 but you know, you mentioned Paul Manaphort. Was interesting that him is that 544 00:39:59,159 --> 00:40:00,400 you know, he looks like the big loser, right, like he went 545 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:05,760 to jail, but he could be the big winner if Donald Trump is elected. 546 00:40:06,679 --> 00:40:12,039 Paul Maniport went to jail for Donald Trump. And Donald Trump is a 547 00:40:12,079 --> 00:40:15,639 guy who lives and breathes loyalty, you know, especially a frong this this 548 00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:20,679 trial right now, all the comments that are talking about how important loyalty is 549 00:40:20,679 --> 00:40:23,119 a Donald Trump. Paul Manwerck went to jail for Donald Trump. So when 550 00:40:23,159 --> 00:40:28,480 Paul Maniport, if Donald Trump wins, Paul Manfort is going to start, 551 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:32,760 you know, Paul Manifort lobbying and associates and every company and every country in 552 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:37,039 the world is going to know that that guy has Donald Trump's ear. So 553 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,559 Paul Manafort could end up being the biggest winner of this story. Oh that's 554 00:40:40,599 --> 00:40:50,039 a great point. Another depressing reality. Yeah, that's and just as you 555 00:40:50,039 --> 00:40:54,320 were talking a little bit about Josh Howley, Elizabeth Warren potential new coalitions down 556 00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:59,559 the road, there was this era where you had there's the kind of gift 557 00:40:59,639 --> 00:41:02,800 band era. This is sort of like early Obama administration. Of my memory 558 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:07,480 is correct, you had the left sort of rallying against citizen Citizens United. 559 00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,639 Basically nobody on the right. I mean maybe a couple of people opposing it 560 00:41:10,679 --> 00:41:15,400 at the time. But if people look at the stock bands, like, 561 00:41:15,559 --> 00:41:19,079 what was it called the Stock Act? I think that was twenty twelve. 562 00:41:19,559 --> 00:41:22,280 So many of these regulations, and you write about this with the gift band 563 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:30,760 have unintended consequences. Revolving door regulations can have unintended consequences. Is there anything 564 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:35,039 on the table right now that you know you feel brody won't be co opted 565 00:41:35,079 --> 00:41:38,840 by special interests themselves, won't have carve outs that are influenced by lobbyists who 566 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:43,519 want to kind of keep the racket going, you know. Sadly, I 567 00:41:43,559 --> 00:41:46,320 think the answer is no. I mean, as a reporter, we're always 568 00:41:46,559 --> 00:41:52,119 required to say more disclosure is better, and that's true. I think that 569 00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:57,360 one of the problems we have now is that if you are a quote unquote 570 00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,800 lobbyist, if you talk to members of Congress on behalf of a company or 571 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:06,000 a country, in order to influence policy, you have to disclose your activities 572 00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:10,519 as a lobbyist, and me or the public or reporters can go see whose 573 00:42:10,599 --> 00:42:14,440 lobbists represent, how much money they're getting paid, and what they're doing, 574 00:42:14,559 --> 00:42:17,599 and the American citizens can decide whether that's good or bad. But a lot 575 00:42:17,599 --> 00:42:23,119 of lobbying is now moved to the states and to trying to get constituents to 576 00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:30,400 lobbies are on behalf of corporations that lobbying is not disclosed, so we don't 577 00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:32,519 know who's out there. We don't know who's running social media ads, we 578 00:42:32,519 --> 00:42:37,719 don't know who's influencing individuals or groups to try to get them just to push 579 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,480 for a trade bill or a tax cutter or whatnot. So I think that 580 00:42:40,519 --> 00:42:45,559 could be one reform, but other reforms. I mean, if you can't 581 00:42:45,559 --> 00:42:49,480 take money out of politics because of the Constitution, and you can't say that 582 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,519 lobbyists or individuals or Americans can't petition their government because that's in the First Amendment, 583 00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:58,760 and obviously we don't want to take that away. But as a result 584 00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,000 of that, companies are always have lots of power because they have the money 585 00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:07,360 and they have the power to hire lobbyists. So every time there's been a 586 00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:14,519 well intentioned reform of our system passed by Republicans or Democrat lobbyists find their way 587 00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:17,360 around it. So sorry to be depressing on this one, but you know, 588 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:22,079 one of the quotes we have in our book is from Tony Podesta, 589 00:43:22,119 --> 00:43:28,280 who's one of the most successful Democratic lobbyists of our time, and when when 590 00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:30,639 Barack Obama was elected, Barack Obama was talking a big game about drinking the 591 00:43:30,639 --> 00:43:34,000 swamp, you know, just like Donald Trump, and getting rid of the 592 00:43:34,199 --> 00:43:38,360 He's lobbyists and getting rid of money in politics, and Tony Podesta said, 593 00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:43,079 you know, if they if they if they say that lobby if they passed 594 00:43:43,079 --> 00:43:45,960 a law they said that lobbyists can't drive cars, well let's go get drivers. 595 00:43:46,159 --> 00:43:49,760 And that's really how it is. Lobbyist will always find a way around 596 00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:54,000 whatever rule. There is. So depressing, but you know, there's something 597 00:43:54,000 --> 00:44:00,280 poetic I think about the man of Fort Podesta, and I admit I had 598 00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:02,920 totally forgotten about Vin Weber's involvement in all of this, and you address that 599 00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:06,599 towards the end of the book too, But in some sense, says you 600 00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:08,880 trace this arc from nineteen seventy two to now, there's just something so poetic 601 00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:14,920 about them both representing the Party of Regions respective Do you see it that way, 602 00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:15,880 Brody? I mean, it just kind of blows my mind. But 603 00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:19,719 at the same time, it's so obvious and so predictable. You know. 604 00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:23,639 Obviously, my brother and I like our book a lot because we spent so 605 00:44:23,679 --> 00:44:27,000 much time anyway, and we did it, but there are some things in 606 00:44:27,039 --> 00:44:30,280 there that, like, we just blew our minds. The fact that all 607 00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:35,159 these characters end up collapsing and having their you know, scandals and falling apart 608 00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:39,440 and going to jail, and one of our main characters sadly commit suicide. 609 00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:45,159 And this Russian Ukraine thing. The fact that Podesta and Man of War, 610 00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:51,480 two people who represent you know, lots of what's wrong with corporate lobbying, 611 00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:58,559 come together in this scandal where they're representing the interests of the Russian Party in 612 00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:01,840 Ukraine, and then the collapse together. It's just it's just stunning. It's 613 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:05,920 almost like if we sat down tried to make up a good story of maybe 614 00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:09,119 what we would have made out, but it's true, incredible. Well, 615 00:45:09,119 --> 00:45:13,039 I can't recommend this book enough once again. It's called The Wolves of k 616 00:45:13,159 --> 00:45:16,000 Street, The Secret History of How Big Money Took over big government. It 617 00:45:16,079 --> 00:45:20,440 is an achievement. It is a behamoth so brody. It was really a 618 00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:22,239 privilege to talk to you about this book today. Awesome. Thank you having 619 00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:25,760 this up. Of course you have been listening to another edition of The Federalist 620 00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:30,440 Radio Hour. I'm a Lugianski culture editor here at the Federalist. We'll be 621 00:45:30,519 --> 00:45:32,559 back soon with more. Until then, the lovers of freedom and anxious for 622 00:45:32,599 --> 00:45:39,159 the friend you right well, you know