Billy Cunning in the Great American and welcome is war his first day afternon A
the tri State they have a little bit of falling autumn weather and then the
may is a good thing. Redg baseball off today, which is also a
good thing. We're going to kind of reconor to all issues and play in
Chicago over the weekend. There's nothing better than the weekend in Chicago at Wrigular
Field when the REGs are beating the Cubs three straight. At least that's the
plan. But until then, we're continuing to be in jury watch when it
comes to Donald John Trump and whether or not the jury in New York City
is going to convict him of a numerous felonies without the defense council knowing which
felonies what he's on trial for. Plus, we have a report out of
Boston, Massachusetts, where the mayor has issued instructions to the police not to
arrest individuals. She went out to prosecute individuals on shoplifting or driving without a
license all other property offenses. So it's quite sad. But until then,
Rob Sanders, Kent County Prosecutor, welcome again to the Bill Cunning Show and
Rob first of all, you must have hundreds or thousands of cases that you
prosecute every year in Kent County, and you kind of quarter the resources of
the Kent County Prosecutor's office to prioritize those defendants that should be prosecuted and others
that should not be prosecuted. Could you imagine if there was a charge in
Kenton County that's some Kentucky official a misfiled a report and booked something as a
legal fees when it might have been an extortion attempt of a porn star to
pay her off to keep her quiet. And I would think as a felony
prosecutor, paperwork mistakes on forums filed in Frankfort is not a high priority unless
you're a New York City Democrat, in which case it is going to maybe
keep the next president from running for office because so many would be angry at
him if he's a convicted felon. So can you tell the American people as
a line prosecutor, you spend your time in the intestines of Kenton County deciding
when to prosecute a felony and when not to go to felony? What is
that judgment? How do you operate it well. Willie, I think,
is the chief law enforcement officer for Kenton County. It's not my job to
influence the outcome of federal elections, especially not the presidential election. It's my
job to keep the people Kent County safe, to make the safest place in
Kentucky where you can live, work, or raise a family. It's really
not my job to try and disqualify someone from running for a national office.
Nor is it my job to try and incarcerate them or even just tie up
their time so they can't be out on the campaign trail looking for votes and
raising money and doing things that presidential candidates have to do to be successful in
this country. That's something that's really beyond comprehension as far as I'm concerned.
Given the limited time, manpower, and resources that are allotted to prosecutors,
not just in Kentucky but everywhere in this country, it seems to me that
the citizens of New York City would be much better served if their district attorney
was spending his time keeping crime to a minimum, locking up those dangerous individuals
that pose a threat to the public safety, and really spend less time worrying
about the classification or label or title that somebody puts on a business filing that
they did in fact file and you know, pays the taxes that were in
fact due and everything else that they're required to do. But we're squabbling over
what someone classified on expense as. And that's what this case more or less
boils down to. Technically speaking. However, when you start bringing in all
the political complications that go on in the behind the scenes motivations of the individual
making the charging decision in this case, certainly it's a lot more complicated than
that, but certainly nothing that I ever intended to do. You know,
Joe Biden was in Kent and kind of gave speech on the shore of the
Ohio River. I'm sure we could have looked at his expense reports see if
maybe he mislabeled his ice cream cone as something other than a political stunt,
because we know that every politician goes to Greaters to try and get their thirty
seconds of photo ops when they're in Cincinnati. Maybe he labeled that as something
other than a political expense, is a lunch expense or something, and maybe
we should indict that as a felony. But no, that's not anything we're
going to do. That's not my job. That's not the job of any
district attorney, not in this country. I downloaded the jury instructions that was
online. It's about sixty pages long, single space, and this morning Judge
Murshawan read a large section of that jury instruction. It would take a person
with juris doctor to agree with great understanding to go the ins and outs of
what they were saying, especially when the jury instruction the defense did not have
an opportunity to upon witnesses to refute the jury instruction. The jury instruction also
said you don't have to be unanimous if you find the myster mean it was
misfiling a report labeling something is a legal expense when it was an NDA that
you in order to get to a felony level violate federal election law or tax
law or New York state election laws, which is corruptly influencing an election.
And so he also said that the jurors don't have to be unanimous and determining
whether it was an FEC violation, a tax law violation, or New York
state election law violation. And almost all of the legal so called experts,
including CNN's Eliehony, who makes more sense than most, saying this is a
novel approach in criminal law when the jury does not have to find unanimously any
of those three ladders that make it to a felony. And they're saying this
is a new area of law in which jurors don't have to be unanimous to
find the defendant guilty and might send Donald Trump to prison for five years now.
I don't know if you've read many of the jury instructions. Another mistake,
which was critical is that Judge Merschaan did not give each juror a copy
of the jury instructions to take with them into the jury room. He had
to take laborious pains to read a large section of the jury instruction instead of
saying, ladies and gentlemen, here are the jury instructions. Everybody gets a
copy. Go deliberate. Wouldn't it be much better if the defense knew what
they were defending against, and secondly, much better if the judge would simply
give them the jury instructions. Willie, I'll tell you what I am baffled
it the way New York. I don't know if this is just in this
one Judge's courtroom or is this how the whole state does it. I have
all kinds of questions about New York courtroom procedure, but this trial has been
scary enough that I don't want to accept the foot in the state of New
York to find the answers to these questions, because Lord knows, I don't
want to be stuck facing the same kind of situation that Donald Trump's in,
where you have to give your closing argument and then the judge reads the jury
instructions. So I tried hundreds of cases in my career, Willy, and
in every single one, the judge reads the jury instructions. Every juror gets
their own copy of the injury instructions. They get to take them back into
the jury room with them so they can see what the elements of the offenses
are that they are voting on guilty or not guilty. But the judge gives
the instructions, and then you give your closing arguments, so you can argue.
In fact, that probably the most important part of a closing argument,
aside from convincing the jury of your side of the case, probably the most
important part of the closing argument is helping the jurors understand the jury instructions,
which, even in sometimes what appear to be the simplest of cases, can
be very, very complicated when there's lesser included offenses, there's alternate theories,
there's affirmative defenses, These things can go on. I mean some that I've
done have looked like small novels in terms of how many pages of jury instructions
are involved. And if this judge isn't giving them a copy of these instructions,
there's no way they're going to remember all these nuances when they go back
and all the was that an and? Or was that an? Ore?
Which ones the less are included of this? Which things do we have to
get unanimous? Which ones don't we have to get unanimous? Which is a
whole other topic. I can't imagine how complicated these instructions are, nor can
I imagine how you cannot be unanimous about which law you think Donald Trump broke
in order to find him guilty. That's something that makes my head spin.
Also tells me that regardless of what he might be convicted of, if he
is convicted, without a doubt, this case is going to the appellate courts.
Not only is it going to the appellate courts on a state level.
But then if it makes it out of the appellate courts on the state level
with the conviction still intact, you'll see it go to a federal level,
because there is all kinds of federal case law on unanimity of jury verdicts when
it comes to criminal cases. So I have all kinds of questions about what's
going on up there, Whether this judge is just going rogue and making his
own law, or is this the entire state of New York that does things
I've never heard of in twenty five plus years as an attorney and twenty years
as prosecutor. No, what's going on there is not what goes on in
the courtroom on a daily basis in most states, certainly not in Kentucky or
any other state I've ever heard of before. This is something that is novel
at best and bizarre at worst that is probably going to take us years to
sort out, which really puts just a tailspin on this election that who knows
how this is going to play out. If Donald Trump is convicted, He's
not going to be in prison come election day. This will be appealed and
appealed and appealed, and this will probably you know, he'll probably serve out
the next term as president before we ever get a final decision on the numerous
different legal questions being posed in this case. Have you ever heard of an
element of a crime in which the jurors don't have to unanimously agree. That
is a key part of American Jerry Sprunes and Judge Mrshaan told U Shurry that
if for consider it a violation of federal election law, and for consider it
a tax violation, and four other jurors consider it to be a New York
state election law violation, and the others are rejected, that that's okay.
There's no unanimous verdict required on the critical element of the case. And even
CNN's commentators say, man, I've never heard of that before, But that's
passing is due process in New York City with New York City Democrats, which
is absurd. Now, Secondly, I have a memo issued by the Boston
County Prosecutor in Boston, Massachusetts. Her name is Rollin. She says to
her assistance in the Boston Police, the following crimes will not be accepted by
this office subject to prosecution, including shoplifting below one thousand dollars, larceny below
one thousand dollars, any disorderly conduct charge, receiving stolen property below one thousand
dollars, driving with a court order, suspended driver's license, breaking and entering
with property damage once in a malicious destruction of property if it's under one thousand
dollars, criminal threats, and possession of alcohol, marijuana or possession with intent
to distribute marijuana will not be prosecuted. That's Boston, Massachusetts, which is
similar to other democratically controlled large cities. I want to get your reaction.
Can you imagine issuing a memo to Kent County Police Covington Police that the following
charges will not be prosecuted by rob Sanders, suspended driver's licenses, thats orderly
conduct, shoplifting, larceny, receiving stolen property, want destruction of property,
threats, possession of alcohol, marijuana illegally, possession with intent to distribute None
of those are going to be prosecuted. Can you imagine? No, No,
Willie, not at all. Number one, it's not a prosecutor's job
to decide what laws they are going to in effect take off the books or
erase. Prosecutors ought to be enforcing the law as it is passed by the
legislature. Of course, prosecutorial discretion is a pro bred on a case by
case basis of which cases are more important than other cases, which cases are
more egregious than other cases. That's why we have penalty ranges. You know,
not every class D felony is one year in prison. Some of them
are good for five years in prison, other ones are more appropriate for one
year in prison. That's where discretion comes into play. It should not be
in taking laws off the books and telling police not to charge offenses. If
that prosecutor doesn't want those to be crimes, he or she should go lobby
in the legislature and tell the legislature to take those off the books. That's
why we have the second branch of government to control what laws are passed,
what laws are erased. That's their job. The first branch of government,
which is where prosecutors lie. Their job is to enforce the law as it's
been duly passed by the legislature. And if you look at these willis quite
frankly, I think, not necessarily racist in its approach, but certainly classiest
in its approach. Because you talk about property damage being less than a thound
dollars, Well, that means if I go damage your you know, the
Cunningham mansion out there in Deer Park, I'm sure I could just like break
the doorbell and it'd be a thousand dollars worth of damage. But if you
come to the poor part of town, you could break out every window in
somebody's house and not cause a thousand dollars in damage because their house just doesn't
worth that much money. It's a lot easier to commit the offenses that they
will prosecute in the nicer parts of town, and what it does is discriminate
against poor people. The same with a lot of these other offenses, like
the drug offenses. Even nobody wants their kids going out and playing in the
yard if there's a drug dealer on the corner, and if they're not prosecuting
drug laws, then that's what the poor folks are going to get. You
know, the poor folks don't hang out or I'm sorry, the drug dealers
don't hang out in the Indian hills of the world. The drug dealers are
down in the poor neighborhoods, and those are the people that have to suffer
the consequences of having criminals right outside their door. So what this da has
done is make life worse for the poor folks and her jurisdiction. What she
needs to do is the laws it's passed by the legislature and ports it evenly
and ask cour jurors not to discriminate against citizens and her jurisdictions is because they're
poor and have these crimes go on outside their door, that it's no less
important to a poor person to have a safe place to live than it is
to a rich person live in the nicest neighborhood she's got. And the other
issue is Boston police. The head of the union there are demoralized. They're
saying, we cannot have the ability to say if some damage to property or
something is tolen, is it nine hundred dollars, is it eleven hundred dollars?
Who do we arrest? Who don't we arrest? And unless there's violence
against police, resisting arrest won't be prosecuted either. The police have an attitude
now in Boston in many major American cities to stand down, not a big
deal, don't chase anybody, don't go into an alley at night, stay
in your police car, respond to a nine to one one call, don't
pick up warrants during the beginning of a shift to go find people because it's
too dangerous. And so you take away the ability of police to be police,
and the judges, and after all we get the government we deserve,
Rob Sanders. And right now, in many major American cities, sadly,
including Cincinnati, there's massiveless lawlessness taking place, and cops don't feel as if
they're incentivized and backed up by the judges and their political leaders. And in
Cincinnati or Boston or Columbus, police are demoralized thinking, Okay, why should
I be a cop and go through what I got to do and put my
life at risk to arrest people when the system will not allow any prosecution below
property damage of one thousand dollars And kids that have marijuana or alcohol that used
to be okay, citable offense, don't do that again. Now they're not
even arresting anybody in juvenile court. And in Hamilton County we got Judge Kerry
Bloom and Juvenile Court who thinks a nine or two in jail of aficious juvenile
offender is worse on the offender than it is on the victim. And so
this movement is across the country of decriminalizing crime. Then I hear constantly that
the crime going down. No crime's going up, but the arrest are going
down. That's the difficulty. Well, Rob, we got d Willie,
and Covington does Covington. We have a minute remaining, but ken, is
it fair to say that Covington does not have the same view of crime as
the city of Cincinnati. Without a doubt, Willie. We have citizens in
Covington and beyond, all over Boon, cann and Campbell County that all support
our police officers. We want the law to be enforced. We don't want
the problems that we're seeing in Cincinnati. I saw video on Melissa powers office
Facebook page the other day of a juvenile getting jumped by about six or eight
other juveniles and getting beat down on the ground, punched and kicked in the
head while he's on the ground and everybody in there. I don't even think
all of them were caught, but the ones that were all got off with
probation. There was no jail time at all for this savage beating on this
child. We don't look upon it the same way. In Kentucky, we
want laws to be enforced. We want them to be enforced evenly, and
for all communities, rich or poor, black or white, any other color,
every race, ethnicity, nationality, religion, it doesn't matter. Everybody
wants the law enforced evenly. We want to support the men and women that
wear the badge and put their lives on the line to enforce those laws.
And it's not going to happen in a jurisdiction where whether it's the prosecutor or
the mayor or whoever it is, is telling the police that these laws should
not be enforced. The police aren't going to be proactive. Why should they
go put their life on the line take a risk every time they make a
traffic stop or approach the suspicious person on the street. Why should they take
that risk of either getting disciplined or worse, getting hurt or getting killed by
a criminal when that offense that they're going to investigate is something the prosecutor is
not going to enforce or the mayor is going to punish them for having enforced
the laws, and the police are going to slow down their activity. They're
not going to take unnecessary risks if they know there's no benefit to them or
the community, and the voters get the community that they are willing to accept,
and that can be a lawless, dangerous community. If that's the kind
of community that the voters are going to push by their ballot box, by
which people they put in office, which judges they put on the bench,
they're going to suffer the consequences of electing beneficials. Rob Sanders, every great
weekend, and may God bless you and God bless America. Rob Sanders,
thank you for coming on the Bill Cunningham Show. Thank you, Rob.
Thanks for having me, Willie, and give me a call so we can
set up that both the dinner I owe you wall Pitching Post as well as
the Vanilla Ice concert at the luxury box you have over there at the Red
Stadium. I'm looking forward to both. It will happen, Rob, Thank
you very much. Take care, Willie. Let's continue with more your comments.
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