This is a studio Both and production. If you'd like to support this show
and get ad free episodes for as little as two dollars a month, go
to patreon dot com slash studio both And. It's not your fault. You
know that, right, You were not warm normal? Yes, no,
you weren't. No you weren't. Yeah, no, no, no,
no, no, it doesn't matter. You don't have the same chemical makeup
as other people. You don't have those conconents. You don't can't have the
same sensory is there? Oh? You do you know the difference in right
and wrong? You do? You absolutely correct, not kind of. You
know what's right and you know what's wrong because because you've read it. So
from the beginning of your life you feel that she did not know the difference
of right and wrong. But because of educating yourself, you now know the
difference between right and wrong, and cares and some values. And yeah,
you lived in defiance your entire life, right, which is typical typical,
Well, no, it's typical of one who is in your position. The
relationship between Kelly Cochrane and Detective Jeremy Ogden has become one of the more compelling
aspects of the story of Kelly, and another key to how one might discern
her lies from her truths. She seems to simultaneously respect and admire Ogden while
also attempting to manipulate him. Interestingly, and not dissimilar from Russo and Israel
Keys, Ogden appears to be shockingly honest with Kelly, but unlike with Keys,
Kelly seems incredibly responsive to and adoring of Ogden's honesty. The more honest
and transparent Ogden is with Kelly, the more she seems to try to give
him what he wants, and yet the more honest he expects her to be,
the more defiant she becomes with the truth. As a Keen listener put
it, Kelly appears to be oppositional defiant. Kelly wants to confess on her
own terms and on her terms alone, So whenever Ogden presents information he has
or asks her a leading question that she doesn't want to confirm, she refuses
to answer, agree, or confirm, because, similar to Keys, Kelly
has to be in control of the interviews in the information, and yet her
narcissism drives her to sustain the conversation and regain control of it. For example,
when Ogden asks Kelly about having a trophybag. Kelly responds by saying that
there are two trophy bags, one in Ottawa Park and the other which seems
to float around. Sometimes it's in her parents' attic, sometimes it's in her
house in Caspian, and most recently it's with her boyfriend, a man she
won't name who doesn't even know he has it. The point is Kelly has
to prove to Ogden that she knows more than he does, and by presenting
two trophybags rather than one, she gets to be right and sustain the conversation
while regaining control of it. The second trophybag is obviously a lie. It's
Kelly's way of regaining control of the interview and the information. She in essence
has to one up Ogden and in doing so makes a strange and false confession.
And when you look at her crazier confessions through this lens, you get
a better sense of when and why she's lying, usually in response to being
caught for something she doesn't want Ogden to know, or when she feels like
Ogden has outsmart at her. Kelly has to feel like she's the smartest person
in the room, even if she's lying to feel that way. As Laura
Frizzo said, the relationship is weird and how it straddles friendly and adversarial,
both indelicately and genuinely. In a lot of ways, Kelly and Ogden need
each other. Kelly needs Ogden to get what she wants, and Ogden needs
Kelly to close the case and bring justice to her victims and their families.
And as I've learned from Keys, when you devote years of your life to
a case or an investigation, no matter the resolve, it never fully goes
away. Kelly and Ogden are forever linked in the most fucked up of ways,
and somewhat codependently, and it's a codependency both benign and malignant. There's
really nothing either can do to the other. Kelly's in jail for life.
She can't physically hurt Ogden nor harass him, and he, by no means
has to deal with her. And Ogden can't really punish Kelly any more than
she already has been punished. The stakes are incredibly high for both of them,
but it's a leveraged relationship where neither party genuinely has any functional leverage.
Neither of them will likely ever give the other one what they want, and
so the relationship, the codependency, just goes on and on and on.
But even before Kelly and Ogden found themselves talking through bars, the relationship was
odd. Kelly repeatedly claimed that she chose Ogden to be the man to investigate
her, going as far as to insinuate that she killed Jason in Hobert so
that the murder would be investigated in Ogden's jurisdiction. And, like with all
things Kelly, this is probably bullshit. But there's also evidence that makes it
plausible. Ogden was involved in the arrest of or had multiple run ins with
various people close to Kelly, including her brother and two ex boyfriends, all
prior to Kelly's move to the up. So it's not out of the realm
of possibility to believe that Kelly, a known stalker, knew who Ogden was
and preyed on him in some strange way. Now, do I think Kelly
killed Jason and Hobert simply to get access to Ogden, Not even remotely.
But do I think it's possible she had an interest in him prior to his
involvement in her case? Sure, and Kelly even admitted on several occasions to
driving past Ogden's house or following him around Herbert, and she admitted it was
because she wanted Ogden to believe or know that she was a threat to him.
The things. No joking about that one other times. Yeah, uch
surveillance if you done truthfully, it's the truth, hears. Yeah, what
do you know about me? M Yeah, but this is just a conversation,
right, you and I get to have this conversation. Well, I
mean this is the way our conversations will always occur. Yeah, yeah,
okay, what do you know about me? That the right? What got
shun? Play? Yeah, come on, you can get a break,
Jason's get a break, res An, tell the truth. Don't play games
with me. No, tell the truth. You are playing a game when
you say that happen so much, RESI, bullshit, bullshit. That's all
you do. If you research on everything before you get involved in it.
Use a computer. Use a computer, oh yeah, you do. Use
at the public library, use it at perdue, use other people's log ins
in order to be able to research things so that you don't get caught.
Do it. That's a SMI idea. It is, and it's amazing.
I'm glad I thought of it all on my own. Thank you for the
tip. Yeah, thanks time. I already know that you did. I
already have all the subpoenas studying on my desk and it doesn't matter. You're
right, it doesn't matter. But that's what you do. So what do
you know about me? Jeri? Good cop? What else? You've had
some issues? What are those here? Shoes? This sue mare? All
right? Point them out? Not judging me? Why aren't you judging me?
Right? Because I didn't judge you? Are you good it? You
have to, it's your job. M No, it's not true you feel
I judged you. They haven't judged you. I'm not gonna play your fault
like that, especially kinds of stuff that I know that'd be wrong. Why
I don't think it's wrong. I think it's respectful. When I asked the
question, I asked, it's not as though you're setting you're priding at me
and I'm human, that's I already I've done the research. You know you
do. You have done research, and you do know it's not that IM
part doesn't make you. Why you said what you said to me sitting here
this morning, which fat, it's about shooting someone, I think. I
No, that's exactly why you said it. No, but that's exactly why
you said it, because you know. Yeah, tell me you're right.
I didn't tell you you're doing your job. That was it's different than the
kind of killing that you do. I wasn't judging you know that. I
didn't say that's tru I don't think you weren't trying to hurt me, not
at all. But as Kelly is want to do. She flips back and
forth between contradicting statements. You mean, well, you're a good guy.
Oh I am, yeah, inertial? Now have you thought of jelling me?
Never? Why you're gonna kiss me off? Why? I don't know.
Is that unusual? O? Good? God, don't matter? Truth
mission. I wasn't interested in doing that too. What are the way did
you have done? Yeah? Yeah, tell the truth. You've done your
horn for coffee? Are you're sleeping? Well? I was sleeping where and
try when where? Else where else I can talk about? Oh no,
that's not true. You've actually you've actually thought about me and you've actually watched
me. Oh yeah, I didn't say that. I'm asking you. We're
else with an opportune moment, nor what's super horror? Yeah, you should
carry an efe. I know you known you had a big bird day.
You've got me down each time, right, being like men into so get
away right, it's not a type, but I get the super super work.
Yes, Oh my goodness. She says she's never thought about killing him,
and then she lists a handful of very specific times, places, and
ways she could have killed him, most notably during field trips on the many
many failed trips were Kelly took investigators into areas she claimed there were bodies or
evidence, like in Deep River Park. In fact, on several of these
trips, including both to Deep River Park, Kelly joked to Ogden about being
able to escape if she wanted to these same trips where she definitely wasn't thinking
about ways to kill Ogden or others, which poses another question. Was Kelly
manipulating investigators into taking her to Deep River Park to intimidate her uncle or to
establish some sort of agency over her childhood trauma, or was she hoping,
after years escalation and multiple proxy kills, to somehow escape and murder her uncle
before serving life in prison. Everything, are you going to talk to me?
Or not. Yeah, I am okay, I'm going to answer you.
Um. You and my mother both pointed out the fact that any institution
I've ever been in, I put myself in. We know that's true.
I chose to do this, it was time. But at the same time,
my hesitancy is I don't feel it was done. I feel that that
I can still finish, but things have changed. What that is your goal?
Yeah? Where am I at all that? You're the good one.
You're the good one that reached in and found that small percentage of good that
actually gives a small shit about people for certain people. You know it.
And as much as that irritates me, and you know it does, because
for me to give a shit about people frustrate it is. You do understand
that, right. Yeah, I can put on the act that I care
about people all day. You both have seen two sides of that. You've
seen me shift tears for stupid shiit. My thing is, it wasn't how
you said things. It was you togged at them, like said small percentage,
then gave a shit twice and only twice. During her conversations alone with
Ogden, Kelly mentions a master plan or some ultimate goal and when pressed she
gets quiet or irritated or changes the subject. And in that clip, in
between trips to Deep River Park, Kelly mentions her incomplete plan for the last
time. It's Kelly Cochrane, so any Cocamimi plan is plausible. But it's
clear that Kelly was not done killing. After her arrest, she threatened to
kill multiple cell mates and prison guards. She was caught making shives in her
cell, and she told Ogden on several occasions that, quite frankly, her
urge to He'll never went away, which is why Kelly spends most of her
time in solitary confinement these days. Play well, okay, I try,
I'm not kidding. What's play well means that means don't don't get yourself hurt
or hurt anyone else. I try not to hurt myself. Every time I
have to not hurt somebody, I do get hurt. So that's a part
of the process. It's one or the other. Be nice, you know,
that's not in my DNA. I will I will see you soon,
okay, have a good day and I'll get I'll get on the phone with
you again here shortly. Thank you, ye bye. If all of the
interviews are boiled down to their two most simplest parts. Kelly has a nually
two differing stories about the murderers committed either separately or together by the Cochranes.
One Kelly killed twenty or twenty one people, all of whom were disposed of
in four different parks and in one case the woods behind someone's house. Jason
was an accomplice in one and only one of those murders, And while she's
never come right out and said it, she seems to imply it's the murder
of Minnesota Jason. Two Jason killed eleven or twelve people, all of whom
were either disposed of in the same parks as Kelly's victims, in the woods
or in campgrounds, or they were cut up and fed to their pigs.
According to Kelly, the details of all of their murders have been written down
in multiple composition books which have never been found, and in Jason's manu script,
of which only pieces have been recovered. And here's what we can confirm
about the crimes of Kelly Cochrane. One Kelly lured Chris Regan to the Cochrane
home, where either she or Jason shot him in the back of the head.
I believe it was Kelly who shot him. Other than his skull.
Chris Regan's remains have never been recovered, and there's evidence and stories from multiple
parties, including Jason, indicating that the Cochrans cut him up and fed his
remains to their neighbors. Two. Kelly convinced Jason to try heroine for the
first time, injected him with a lethal dose, then suffocated him with a
pillow she then threw up into his mouth to make it look like an overdose
and accidental choking. Three Kelly lured Alicia to a park late at night,
where she gave her lethal doses of sedatives, sedatives that she told Alicia were
uppers. She then put Alicia behind the wheel of a car and told her
to drive home. And four Kelly has told multiple people that she has a
butterfly tattoo representing each of her victims. Kelly has eleven butterfly tattoos. Of
all the possible Cochrane victims, there are two that stand out as the most
likely. Andrew Fugate, a man who was shot in the back of the
head while working at a meat plant within walking distance of the Cochrane's home in
Maryville just several months before they randomly uprooted and moved to the up. Surveillance
cameras at and around the meat plant show two people exiting a car that resembles
the Cochrane's truck and approached the crime scene just minutes before the murder. The
two can then be seen running back to the truck and driving out of the
parking lot. And then there's Jason Ruder, a man who was shot in
the back of the head in his own backyard in Hastings, Minnesota, in
twenty fourteen the same year and small town where Kelly claimed to have murdered a
man named Jason. A week after Jason Ruter's murder, the Cochranes went camping
in Ottawa Park, the same park where Kelly claims she buried trophies from at
least one of her kills. There are incredibly strong patterns that are present in
what we know, what we can assume, and some of the stories that
Kelly has told investigators. And the more we know about Kelly's childhood trauma and
how it may have manifested in her crimes, the more we can discern truth
from fiction in her stories and the more we know about Kelly's tells, responsive
irritability and oppositional defiance, we can even further discern her truths from her lies.
I've said and alluded to it throughout the podcast, but I'll say it
plainly here and now. Kelly's m has always been to make Jason accountable or
look accountable for her crimes. And there is no evidence whatsoever that Jason murdered
anyone, including Chris Reagan, a murder which Kelly stresses somewhat irritably, that
Jason committed and she merely helped cover up. The other pattern that's emerged is
that the Cochrane seemed to check themselves into mental health facilities following their homicides,
and it's something Kelly even kind of admits in her discussions with Ogden. She
used her knowledge of psychology and her treatments to manipulate other and make people think
she was mentally unstable. She also told Ogden that she was partially responsible for
Jason's psychological disorders, and we know that Kelly knows that can't be true,
at least not literally. But there is evidence to indicate that perhaps Kelly made
Jason think he was sicker than he actually was. In their text messages,
Kelly frequently diagnoses Jason. She also convinces him in the multiple times he suspects
or catches on, that she's cheating on him, that he's suffering from paranoid
delusions. And following Chris Regan's murder, it's Kelly who convinces Jason to check
himself in for treatment and an admission notes for Jason's treatment. Following Jason Router's
murder, it says his wife urged him to get help because of Kelly's lies,
which may be compulsive or maybe organized chaos. We may never know who
exactly she murdered, but based on emerging in known patterns and her behavior,
we can start to make sense of when she murdered people, which of her
stories have the most weight, and what exactly her m was. And so
I made a list. She walked into the backyard and stood out from the
wrist, bending a tie round her neck on assumnips and as smiled as I
past her fiver cigarette dark no lashes, Finn joan a Chase, Oh listen,
keep my hands in two and this episode was written, produced, and
researched by me your host Josh Hallmark, with research assistance from Decca Kleine.
This episode featured music by William Hellfire, Chris Zabriskie, Lee Rooseveer, and
Odetta Hartman. But Lorning, I felt choose we find, but I can't
keep my sins is from there? Why but you know why? I'm not
whoa whacking he makes? Mind? Why he sussing? Why he makes I
supposed to do? Do we want it back? No? I he remain
to miss. No okaidh blow I my make to this blowkidar Warkids