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And. It's not your fault. You

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know that, right, You were
not warm normal? Yes, no,

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you weren't. No you weren't.
Yeah, no, no, no,

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no, no, it doesn't matter. You don't have the same chemical makeup

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as other people. You don't have
those conconents. You don't can't have the

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same sensory is there? Oh?
You do you know the difference in right

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and wrong? You do? You
absolutely correct, not kind of. You

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know what's right and you know what's
wrong because because you've read it. So

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from the beginning of your life you
feel that she did not know the difference

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of right and wrong. But because
of educating yourself, you now know the

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difference between right and wrong, and
cares and some values. And yeah,

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you lived in defiance your entire life, right, which is typical typical,

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Well, no, it's typical of
one who is in your position. The

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relationship between Kelly Cochrane and Detective Jeremy
Ogden has become one of the more compelling

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aspects of the story of Kelly,
and another key to how one might discern

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her lies from her truths. She
seems to simultaneously respect and admire Ogden while

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also attempting to manipulate him. Interestingly, and not dissimilar from Russo and Israel

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Keys, Ogden appears to be shockingly
honest with Kelly, but unlike with Keys,

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Kelly seems incredibly responsive to and adoring
of Ogden's honesty. The more honest

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and transparent Ogden is with Kelly,
the more she seems to try to give

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him what he wants, and yet
the more honest he expects her to be,

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the more defiant she becomes with the
truth. As a Keen listener put

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it, Kelly appears to be oppositional
defiant. Kelly wants to confess on her

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own terms and on her terms alone, So whenever Ogden presents information he has

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or asks her a leading question that
she doesn't want to confirm, she refuses

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to answer, agree, or confirm, because, similar to Keys, Kelly

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has to be in control of the
interviews in the information, and yet her

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narcissism drives her to sustain the conversation
and regain control of it. For example,

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when Ogden asks Kelly about having a
trophybag. Kelly responds by saying that

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there are two trophy bags, one
in Ottawa Park and the other which seems

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to float around. Sometimes it's in
her parents' attic, sometimes it's in her

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house in Caspian, and most recently
it's with her boyfriend, a man she

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won't name who doesn't even know he
has it. The point is Kelly has

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to prove to Ogden that she knows
more than he does, and by presenting

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two trophybags rather than one, she
gets to be right and sustain the conversation

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while regaining control of it. The
second trophybag is obviously a lie. It's

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Kelly's way of regaining control of the
interview and the information. She in essence

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has to one up Ogden and in
doing so makes a strange and false confession.

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And when you look at her crazier
confessions through this lens, you get

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a better sense of when and why
she's lying, usually in response to being

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caught for something she doesn't want Ogden
to know, or when she feels like

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Ogden has outsmart at her. Kelly
has to feel like she's the smartest person

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in the room, even if she's
lying to feel that way. As Laura

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Frizzo said, the relationship is weird
and how it straddles friendly and adversarial,

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both indelicately and genuinely. In a
lot of ways, Kelly and Ogden need

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each other. Kelly needs Ogden to
get what she wants, and Ogden needs

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Kelly to close the case and bring
justice to her victims and their families.

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And as I've learned from Keys,
when you devote years of your life to

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a case or an investigation, no
matter the resolve, it never fully goes

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away. Kelly and Ogden are forever
linked in the most fucked up of ways,

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and somewhat codependently, and it's a
codependency both benign and malignant. There's

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really nothing either can do to the
other. Kelly's in jail for life.

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She can't physically hurt Ogden nor harass
him, and he, by no means

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has to deal with her. And
Ogden can't really punish Kelly any more than

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she already has been punished. The
stakes are incredibly high for both of them,

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but it's a leveraged relationship where neither
party genuinely has any functional leverage.

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Neither of them will likely ever give
the other one what they want, and

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so the relationship, the codependency,
just goes on and on and on.

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But even before Kelly and Ogden found
themselves talking through bars, the relationship was

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odd. Kelly repeatedly claimed that she
chose Ogden to be the man to investigate

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her, going as far as to
insinuate that she killed Jason in Hobert so

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that the murder would be investigated in
Ogden's jurisdiction. And, like with all

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things Kelly, this is probably bullshit. But there's also evidence that makes it

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plausible. Ogden was involved in the
arrest of or had multiple run ins with

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various people close to Kelly, including
her brother and two ex boyfriends, all

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prior to Kelly's move to the up. So it's not out of the realm

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of possibility to believe that Kelly,
a known stalker, knew who Ogden was

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and preyed on him in some strange
way. Now, do I think Kelly

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killed Jason and Hobert simply to get
access to Ogden, Not even remotely.

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But do I think it's possible she
had an interest in him prior to his

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involvement in her case? Sure,
and Kelly even admitted on several occasions to

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driving past Ogden's house or following him
around Herbert, and she admitted it was

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because she wanted Ogden to believe or
know that she was a threat to him.

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The things. No joking about that
one other times. Yeah, uch

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surveillance if you done truthfully, it's
the truth, hears. Yeah, what

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do you know about me? M
Yeah, but this is just a conversation,

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right, you and I get to
have this conversation. Well, I

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mean this is the way our conversations
will always occur. Yeah, yeah,

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okay, what do you know about
me? That the right? What got

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shun? Play? Yeah, come
on, you can get a break,

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Jason's get a break, res An, tell the truth. Don't play games

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with me. No, tell the
truth. You are playing a game when

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you say that happen so much,
RESI, bullshit, bullshit. That's all

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you do. If you research on
everything before you get involved in it.

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Use a computer. Use a computer, oh yeah, you do. Use

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at the public library, use it
at perdue, use other people's log ins

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in order to be able to research
things so that you don't get caught.

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Do it. That's a SMI idea. It is, and it's amazing.

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I'm glad I thought of it all
on my own. Thank you for the

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tip. Yeah, thanks time.
I already know that you did. I

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already have all the subpoenas studying on
my desk and it doesn't matter. You're

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right, it doesn't matter. But
that's what you do. So what do

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you know about me? Jeri?
Good cop? What else? You've had

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some issues? What are those here? Shoes? This sue mare? All

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right? Point them out? Not
judging me? Why aren't you judging me?

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Right? Because I didn't judge you? Are you good it? You

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have to, it's your job.
M No, it's not true you feel

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I judged you. They haven't judged
you. I'm not gonna play your fault

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like that, especially kinds of stuff
that I know that'd be wrong. Why

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I don't think it's wrong. I
think it's respectful. When I asked the

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question, I asked, it's not
as though you're setting you're priding at me

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and I'm human, that's I already
I've done the research. You know you

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do. You have done research,
and you do know it's not that IM

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part doesn't make you. Why you
said what you said to me sitting here

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this morning, which fat, it's
about shooting someone, I think. I

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No, that's exactly why you said
it. No, but that's exactly why

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you said it, because you know. Yeah, tell me you're right.

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I didn't tell you you're doing your
job. That was it's different than the

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kind of killing that you do.
I wasn't judging you know that. I

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didn't say that's tru I don't think
you weren't trying to hurt me, not

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at all. But as Kelly is
want to do. She flips back and

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forth between contradicting statements. You mean, well, you're a good guy.

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Oh I am, yeah, inertial? Now have you thought of jelling me?

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Never? Why you're gonna kiss me
off? Why? I don't know.

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Is that unusual? O? Good? God, don't matter? Truth

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mission. I wasn't interested in doing
that too. What are the way did

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you have done? Yeah? Yeah, tell the truth. You've done your

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horn for coffee? Are you're sleeping? Well? I was sleeping where and

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try when where? Else where else
I can talk about? Oh no,

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that's not true. You've actually you've
actually thought about me and you've actually watched

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me. Oh yeah, I didn't
say that. I'm asking you. We're

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else with an opportune moment, nor
what's super horror? Yeah, you should

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carry an efe. I know you
known you had a big bird day.

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You've got me down each time,
right, being like men into so get

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away right, it's not a type, but I get the super super work.

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Yes, Oh my goodness. She
says she's never thought about killing him,

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and then she lists a handful of
very specific times, places, and

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ways she could have killed him,
most notably during field trips on the many

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many failed trips were Kelly took investigators
into areas she claimed there were bodies or

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evidence, like in Deep River Park. In fact, on several of these

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trips, including both to Deep River
Park, Kelly joked to Ogden about being

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able to escape if she wanted to
these same trips where she definitely wasn't thinking

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about ways to kill Ogden or others, which poses another question. Was Kelly

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manipulating investigators into taking her to Deep
River Park to intimidate her uncle or to

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establish some sort of agency over her
childhood trauma, or was she hoping,

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after years escalation and multiple proxy kills, to somehow escape and murder her uncle

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before serving life in prison. Everything, are you going to talk to me?

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Or not. Yeah, I am
okay, I'm going to answer you.

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Um. You and my mother both
pointed out the fact that any institution

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I've ever been in, I put
myself in. We know that's true.

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I chose to do this, it
was time. But at the same time,

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my hesitancy is I don't feel it
was done. I feel that that

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I can still finish, but things
have changed. What that is your goal?

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Yeah? Where am I at all
that? You're the good one.

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You're the good one that reached in
and found that small percentage of good that

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actually gives a small shit about people
for certain people. You know it.

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And as much as that irritates me, and you know it does, because

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for me to give a shit about
people frustrate it is. You do understand

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that, right. Yeah, I
can put on the act that I care

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about people all day. You both
have seen two sides of that. You've

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seen me shift tears for stupid shiit. My thing is, it wasn't how

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you said things. It was you
togged at them, like said small percentage,

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then gave a shit twice and only
twice. During her conversations alone with

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Ogden, Kelly mentions a master plan
or some ultimate goal and when pressed she

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gets quiet or irritated or changes the
subject. And in that clip, in

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between trips to Deep River Park,
Kelly mentions her incomplete plan for the last

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time. It's Kelly Cochrane, so
any Cocamimi plan is plausible. But it's

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clear that Kelly was not done killing. After her arrest, she threatened to

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kill multiple cell mates and prison guards. She was caught making shives in her

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cell, and she told Ogden on
several occasions that, quite frankly, her

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urge to He'll never went away,
which is why Kelly spends most of her

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time in solitary confinement these days.
Play well, okay, I try,

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I'm not kidding. What's play well
means that means don't don't get yourself hurt

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or hurt anyone else. I try
not to hurt myself. Every time I

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have to not hurt somebody, I
do get hurt. So that's a part

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of the process. It's one or
the other. Be nice, you know,

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that's not in my DNA. I
will I will see you soon,

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okay, have a good day and
I'll get I'll get on the phone with

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you again here shortly. Thank you, ye bye. If all of the

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interviews are boiled down to their two
most simplest parts. Kelly has a nually

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two differing stories about the murderers committed
either separately or together by the Cochranes.

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One Kelly killed twenty or twenty one
people, all of whom were disposed of

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in four different parks and in one
case the woods behind someone's house. Jason

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was an accomplice in one and only
one of those murders, And while she's

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never come right out and said it, she seems to imply it's the murder

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of Minnesota Jason. Two Jason killed
eleven or twelve people, all of whom

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were either disposed of in the same
parks as Kelly's victims, in the woods

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or in campgrounds, or they were
cut up and fed to their pigs.

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According to Kelly, the details of
all of their murders have been written down

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in multiple composition books which have never
been found, and in Jason's manu script,

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of which only pieces have been recovered. And here's what we can confirm

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about the crimes of Kelly Cochrane.
One Kelly lured Chris Regan to the Cochrane

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home, where either she or Jason
shot him in the back of the head.

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I believe it was Kelly who shot
him. Other than his skull.

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Chris Regan's remains have never been recovered, and there's evidence and stories from multiple

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parties, including Jason, indicating that
the Cochrans cut him up and fed his

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remains to their neighbors. Two.
Kelly convinced Jason to try heroine for the

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first time, injected him with a
lethal dose, then suffocated him with a

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pillow she then threw up into his
mouth to make it look like an overdose

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and accidental choking. Three Kelly lured
Alicia to a park late at night,

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where she gave her lethal doses of
sedatives, sedatives that she told Alicia were

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uppers. She then put Alicia behind
the wheel of a car and told her

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to drive home. And four Kelly
has told multiple people that she has a

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butterfly tattoo representing each of her victims. Kelly has eleven butterfly tattoos. Of

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all the possible Cochrane victims, there
are two that stand out as the most

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likely. Andrew Fugate, a man
who was shot in the back of the

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head while working at a meat plant
within walking distance of the Cochrane's home in

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Maryville just several months before they randomly
uprooted and moved to the up. Surveillance

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cameras at and around the meat plant
show two people exiting a car that resembles

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the Cochrane's truck and approached the crime
scene just minutes before the murder. The

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two can then be seen running back
to the truck and driving out of the

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parking lot. And then there's Jason
Ruder, a man who was shot in

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the back of the head in his
own backyard in Hastings, Minnesota, in

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twenty fourteen the same year and small
town where Kelly claimed to have murdered a

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man named Jason. A week after
Jason Ruter's murder, the Cochranes went camping

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in Ottawa Park, the same park
where Kelly claims she buried trophies from at

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least one of her kills. There
are incredibly strong patterns that are present in

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what we know, what we can
assume, and some of the stories that

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Kelly has told investigators. And the
more we know about Kelly's childhood trauma and

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how it may have manifested in her
crimes, the more we can discern truth

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from fiction in her stories and the
more we know about Kelly's tells, responsive

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irritability and oppositional defiance, we can
even further discern her truths from her lies.

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I've said and alluded to it throughout
the podcast, but I'll say it

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plainly here and now. Kelly's m
has always been to make Jason accountable or

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look accountable for her crimes. And
there is no evidence whatsoever that Jason murdered

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anyone, including Chris Reagan, a
murder which Kelly stresses somewhat irritably, that

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Jason committed and she merely helped cover
up. The other pattern that's emerged is

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that the Cochrane seemed to check themselves
into mental health facilities following their homicides,

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and it's something Kelly even kind of
admits in her discussions with Ogden. She

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used her knowledge of psychology and her
treatments to manipulate other and make people think

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she was mentally unstable. She also
told Ogden that she was partially responsible for

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Jason's psychological disorders, and we know
that Kelly knows that can't be true,

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at least not literally. But there
is evidence to indicate that perhaps Kelly made

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Jason think he was sicker than he
actually was. In their text messages,

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Kelly frequently diagnoses Jason. She also
convinces him in the multiple times he suspects

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or catches on, that she's cheating
on him, that he's suffering from paranoid

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delusions. And following Chris Regan's murder, it's Kelly who convinces Jason to check

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himself in for treatment and an admission
notes for Jason's treatment. Following Jason Router's

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murder, it says his wife urged
him to get help because of Kelly's lies,

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which may be compulsive or maybe organized
chaos. We may never know who

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exactly she murdered, but based on
emerging in known patterns and her behavior,

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we can start to make sense of
when she murdered people, which of her

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stories have the most weight, and
what exactly her m was. And so

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I made a list. She walked
into the backyard and stood out from the

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wrist, bending a tie round her
neck on assumnips and as smiled as I

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past her fiver cigarette dark no lashes, Finn joan a Chase, Oh listen,

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keep my hands in two and this
episode was written, produced, and

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00:25:11.359 --> 00:25:18.359
researched by me your host Josh Hallmark, with research assistance from Decca Kleine.

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This episode featured music by William Hellfire, Chris Zabriskie, Lee Rooseveer, and

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Odetta Hartman. But Lorning, I
felt choose we find, but I can't

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00:26:04.160 --> 00:26:11.599
keep my sins is from there?
Why but you know why? I'm not

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00:26:14.599 --> 00:26:41.079
whoa whacking he makes? Mind?
Why he sussing? Why he makes I

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00:26:41.079 --> 00:27:04.240
supposed to do? Do we want
it back? No? I he remain

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00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:23.640
to miss. No okaidh blow I
my make to this blowkidar Warkids