1 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:22,359 We're back with another edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily t Henski, 2 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:24,960 culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the 3 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:28,440 show at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on x at fd 4 00:00:28,559 --> 00:00:31,839 R l s T. Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts, 5 00:00:31,879 --> 00:00:35,399 and of course to the premium version of our website, The Federalist dot com 6 00:00:35,439 --> 00:00:40,000 as well. We're joined once again today by Faithmore, who has a podcast 7 00:00:40,039 --> 00:00:45,560 out called story Time for Grown Ups with Faithmore. She's the host of the 8 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:50,200 podcast. You can find out more information about Faith at Faithkmore dot com. 9 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:54,159 That's more m oo r e. Faith, Welcome back to the show. 10 00:00:54,479 --> 00:00:56,759 Thank you so much for having me again. It's so good to be here. 11 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:00,320 Of course, yes, I hope everybody remembers the PODCA. I guess 12 00:01:00,359 --> 00:01:04,319 read about your book Christmas Carol during the holiday season. Now tell us Faith 13 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:07,840 about Storytime for grown Ups. Like the basic concept. I think the concept 14 00:01:07,879 --> 00:01:11,439 is super cool, but if people aren't familiar with it, tell us a 15 00:01:11,439 --> 00:01:15,200 little bit about Storytime for Grownups and what you're doing with this podcast. Thanks. 16 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,200 Yeah, So, Storytime for Grown Ups is a podcast designed to help 17 00:01:18,239 --> 00:01:22,040 people learn to read classic literature. So it grew, I think out of 18 00:01:22,079 --> 00:01:25,400 my own frustration, as you know, growing up as a young adult and 19 00:01:25,439 --> 00:01:29,680 a child. I grew up in a very intellectual family, and I was 20 00:01:29,719 --> 00:01:33,040 always being handed the classics to read, you know, like I was. 21 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:34,840 People were pulling things on off the shelf all the time and handing me like, 22 00:01:34,879 --> 00:01:38,840 you know, here's a Dickens book, here's a Jane Austen whatever. 23 00:01:38,079 --> 00:01:41,719 And I would read the back and I would think, Yeah, this sounds 24 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:44,239 really great. I love this idea for a story. And I would open 25 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:47,920 the book and start to read, and I literally couldn't understand what was in 26 00:01:47,959 --> 00:01:51,040 there. And I think that secretly a lot of people are still having that 27 00:01:51,159 --> 00:01:56,000 experience, and so I wanted to create a podcast that would help us not 28 00:01:56,359 --> 00:02:00,799 just hear about the classics and know what they are, but read them. 29 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:04,799 So the way that it works is every season I choose a classic book. 30 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:08,360 Season one is Jane Eyre by Charlotte Bronte, and each episode of the podcast, 31 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:14,479 I read the book aloud, one chapter per episode, and I pause 32 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:17,639 from time to time to just offer a little bit of explanatory notes, not 33 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:22,400 commentary, but just I'll explain a word, or I'll kind of give a 34 00:02:22,439 --> 00:02:27,759 one sentence summary of what just happened if the passage was particularly tricky. And 35 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:31,960 it's like an audiobook with built in notes. And the idea is that the 36 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:36,159 more you listen, the easier this language will become to you, and the 37 00:02:36,159 --> 00:02:38,960 more that you will be able to go away and read books like this yourself. 38 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:43,680 So that's the hope. I also answer questions about each chapter as we 39 00:02:43,719 --> 00:02:46,199 go along, so it's becoming more and more like a kind of book club 40 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:49,680 where people write in and they ask questions and then I talk about it, 41 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,560 and so we're having a lot of fun reading Jane Ayir for this first season. 42 00:02:53,159 --> 00:02:54,199 Yeah, I was just going to say it feels like a book club. 43 00:02:54,240 --> 00:03:00,479 I was looking at the page for the podcast on Apple, and you 44 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:05,960 have so many good reviews, like you like really taking off. People seem 45 00:03:06,039 --> 00:03:08,879 to really want this, so Faith, That's another question I have for you, 46 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:14,199 is you know, why is it that you know you're talking about your 47 00:03:14,199 --> 00:03:15,719 own experience. And of course I like to picture you as being like two 48 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:23,319 years old struggling with bronte. Your dad just hands you a book when you're 49 00:03:23,319 --> 00:03:27,800 two and says, yeah, you read Janeair it kind of felt like that, 50 00:03:28,199 --> 00:03:32,439 to be honest. But Okay, so why is it that we have 51 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:38,719 a harder time maybe accessing these works now? Obviously the language is different, 52 00:03:39,159 --> 00:03:42,199 but also, you know, we have shorter attention spans. There are all 53 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:45,960 kinds of things going on in the modern world that make it difficult. What 54 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:50,000 do you think some of those factors are. Yeah, I think it's primarily 55 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:53,560 the language. I mean, obviously, just explaining to people that these books 56 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:58,159 are important is kind of a big ask in modern society. But I think 57 00:03:58,159 --> 00:04:00,879 if we're talking just about people who actually want to read these books but are 58 00:04:00,919 --> 00:04:04,560 struggling, I think it's the language. There's a lot you know, as 59 00:04:04,599 --> 00:04:08,439 I've been doing this show and kind of reading through, there's just a lot 60 00:04:08,479 --> 00:04:12,560 of kind of expressions that are really outdated that we don't understand, words that 61 00:04:12,599 --> 00:04:15,680 we don't understand, long kind of descriptions of things that we can get lost 62 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:18,560 in. And so I think when we kind of pick these books up, 63 00:04:18,639 --> 00:04:25,560 even if it sounds great to us the story, we we kind of begin 64 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:28,240 to read and think, wow, I cannot it's like work, you know, 65 00:04:28,319 --> 00:04:30,920 I can't sit down and read this. This is no fun and so 66 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,439 I think these books are kind of getting thrown aside for things that are maybe 67 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:38,560 more modern or more easy or easier to digest, and so they're kind of 68 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:43,600 falling by the wayside. I think there's there isn't a whole bunch of support. 69 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:45,720 You know, this is what this podcast is supposed to be. It's 70 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:49,279 supposed to offer support for people to learn how to read these books themselves, 71 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:54,600 and we don't have that because I think we're hearing from our beloved kind of 72 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:58,199 public intellectuals who are really important. You know, we're hearing like, oh, 73 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:00,439 you've got to read You've got to read Shakespeare, you got to read 74 00:05:00,439 --> 00:05:01,439 Dickens, You've got to read all these things. And we're like, yes, 75 00:05:01,519 --> 00:05:04,120 yes, we want to, we really want to, but we don't 76 00:05:04,199 --> 00:05:08,279 know how and we can't. And then I think it's it's embarrassing. I 77 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:11,519 think there's a level of shame going on as well. People don't want to 78 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:15,120 admit that they can't do this, that these books are too hard, or 79 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,240 they feel stupid. And I don't want them to feel that way anymore, 80 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:21,040 because these books are hard and they come from a different time and we don't 81 00:05:21,079 --> 00:05:25,680 live in that time anymore. But these books inform the time that we do 82 00:05:25,759 --> 00:05:28,639 live in, and so we can't let them go. We have to find 83 00:05:28,639 --> 00:05:31,879 a way back in, even though they don't feel as accessible to us now 84 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:36,519 as they did to the readers who were ingesting them at the time. And 85 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:41,360 I'm very interested in why you chose Jane Eyre to begin with. Can you 86 00:05:41,399 --> 00:05:44,279 tell us a little bit about that? Yes, So there were two reasons. 87 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:46,720 The first was, Jane Eyre is my favorite book of all time. 88 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:50,240 I've read it more times than I would like to admit. It's a great 89 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:53,720 reason. Yeah, well, I own. Well. The reason was I 90 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:57,920 thought, well, if nobody listens to this podcast, at least I'll be 91 00:05:57,959 --> 00:06:00,519 reading a book that I enjoy. That was my first reason. But it 92 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,720 turns out that people are listening, which is great. So my second reason 93 00:06:03,759 --> 00:06:08,319 is I wanted to pick something that had a little bit of something for everyone. 94 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,720 I didn't want to pick something that would only appeal to, you know, 95 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,000 readers of a certain genre or a certain age category or something like that. 96 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:21,000 I wanted to pick something that people could really find something in it to 97 00:06:21,079 --> 00:06:24,439 hold on to. Because that was kind of the idea is this is going 98 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:28,160 to be tricky, this language is tricky. These books are not things we 99 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,199 normally pick up, So why should I care about this book? And Jane 100 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:33,560 Are is a book that, of course, yes, at its heart, 101 00:06:33,639 --> 00:06:38,560 it is a romance, and I think mostly it's women that enjoy this book. 102 00:06:38,639 --> 00:06:41,399 When you ask you know, what's your favorite book, it's if it's 103 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:46,000 Jane Eyre, it's usually a girl. But there's a mystery at the center 104 00:06:46,079 --> 00:06:51,319 of this book. So if you're into mystery, there's that. There's a 105 00:06:51,399 --> 00:06:55,720 there's a lot of Gothic elements in the book, so you know, a 106 00:06:55,759 --> 00:07:00,959 lot of talk about the supernatural and ghosts and scary and things like that. 107 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:04,720 So if you're into the supernatural, horror, fantasy, that kind of thing, 108 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:11,199 you're going to like this book. There's a ton of kind of spiritual 109 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:15,360 theological meditation going on in the book. There's a lot of there's a huge 110 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:19,319 through line about Christianity and religion and spirit spirituality and what makes a good Christian. 111 00:07:19,759 --> 00:07:25,959 There's all of that. Is there really interesting kind of like phroto feminist 112 00:07:26,439 --> 00:07:30,519 stuff is going on in the book, and that all has you know, 113 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:33,120 repercussions in today's society. So I felt that it was a book that had 114 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:36,079 a little bit of something for everyone and that if you didn't like one part, 115 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:39,560 you could hang on to the other. And so I wanted to pick 116 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:46,680 something that you know, everyone could potentially like. There's so much there because 117 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:50,000 as you were just talking about the different themes and the relevance to today, 118 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:57,319 when you went back and started reading this book again, particularly for this project, 119 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:01,240 does anything jump out at you as like the big or maybe there are 120 00:08:01,279 --> 00:08:05,079 multiple things. I would imagine there are multiple things like a big maybe lesson 121 00:08:05,439 --> 00:08:11,680 or a way that Bronte kind of weighed in on something happening right now in 122 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:15,399 ways people might forget. Yeah, so I would say that the religion piece 123 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,639 is a huge one. You know, obviously this is a sort of evergreen 124 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:20,759 topic, is what makes a good Christian? Or what does it mean to 125 00:08:20,759 --> 00:08:26,800 be spiritual? And you know, Bronte without giving too much away, because 126 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:28,560 the whole idea of this podcast is that people should read the book with me, 127 00:08:28,639 --> 00:08:33,440 but without giving too much away, you know, Bronde populates the book 128 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:39,080 with characters who each offer different ideas of what it means to be a Christian. 129 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:43,080 And because of this, she was criticized at the time for writing a 130 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:46,759 book that was anti religion or anti Christian, But she was very clear that 131 00:08:46,759 --> 00:08:50,320 this was actually not all her intention, but that she was trying to kind 132 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,000 of highlight the ways in which perhaps, you know, for example, at 133 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:56,799 the beginning of the book, there's a character named mister Brocklehurst, who is 134 00:08:56,799 --> 00:09:05,039 a kind of hypocritical priest or pastor who you know, who makes the girls 135 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:07,879 at the orphanage that he runs cut off all their hair and dress very simply. 136 00:09:07,919 --> 00:09:09,720 He doesn't feed them well, and he thinks, you know, he 137 00:09:09,759 --> 00:09:13,039 tells them this is godly, but then of course his own family is living 138 00:09:13,039 --> 00:09:18,279 in the lap of luxury. So she's offering this picture of the kind of 139 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:22,159 bad, bad vicar, the bad priest. But then you know, you 140 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:28,559 have other characters like Helen Burns who basically only believe in the spiritual and they 141 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:31,919 feel that their bodies are somehow they're just corrupt and they can't wait to die 142 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:35,960 and throw off their bodies and be pure spirit. And I think Bronte is 143 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:39,320 sort of saying, well, no, that's not right either. So she's 144 00:09:39,399 --> 00:09:43,480 really grappling with this notion that I think that we're still grappling with today. 145 00:09:43,519 --> 00:09:48,080 So that's one kind of huge theme that is relevant in the book. That's 146 00:09:48,759 --> 00:09:54,279 also because it was wasn't Janeair published under a pseudonym, right, it was. 147 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:58,279 It was published under the name Kerr Bell, which was a sort of 148 00:09:58,399 --> 00:10:03,600 masculine name, and so she was, Yes, she was not outing herself 149 00:10:03,759 --> 00:10:09,559 as Charlotte Bronte at the time. Yeah, that's just really interesting the limitations 150 00:10:09,639 --> 00:10:16,360 of womanhood and the sort of physical world, but sort of also resisting them 151 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:20,639 in the book itself. While really I say this not sarcastic, like blazing 152 00:10:20,639 --> 00:10:26,279 a trail in a sort of clever way. Yeah. And the other piece 153 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:31,840 that I think is huge for today is there are all kinds of interesting you 154 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:35,039 know, as I was sort of saying proto or early feminist ideas in the 155 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:39,960 book that are all kind of related to this notion that a woman's inner life 156 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:43,080 is just as rich as a man's inner life. And I think, you 157 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:48,679 know, we today we kind of all roll our eyes at feminism because now 158 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:54,639 it's all about girl bosses and you know, not wanting children and going off 159 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:58,159 and being just like a man. And I think it's interesting to go back 160 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:03,000 and kind of look at someone like Bronte, who clearly was a feminist in 161 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:05,919 her time and to see what it was that she actually was advocating for, 162 00:11:07,279 --> 00:11:11,600 which was not that women should behave exactly like men behave. I think she 163 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:15,440 would have kind of scoffed at that idea, but rather that women should be 164 00:11:15,639 --> 00:11:20,360 acknowledged as having just as much kind of intellectual power as men. And that's 165 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:24,879 kind of what the story in some ways is about. It's one of the 166 00:11:24,879 --> 00:11:30,120 themes is kind of being seen not for your outward appearance or not for your 167 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:35,080 kind of not for the ways that you are supposed to confine yourself to the 168 00:11:35,159 --> 00:11:39,840 rules of your sex, but rather for your inner self and your inner life. 169 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:43,320 And that's kind of one of the lovely and romantic parts of the story 170 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:48,600 is that Janes is ultimately seen for her in herself and not her outer self. 171 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:52,440 And I think it's that too. It's kind of interesting to think about 172 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:56,559 in Pars and pull apart as we think about what it means to be a 173 00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:05,799 woman today. The Watchdout on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day 174 00:12:05,879 --> 00:12:09,759 Chris helps unpack the connection between politics and the economy and how it affects your 175 00:12:09,799 --> 00:12:13,000 wallet. Did your own tax dollars help pay for the massacre in Israel as 176 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:18,440 the federal government continues to give billions to fund most of the United Nations. 177 00:12:18,519 --> 00:12:22,840 Turns out ten percent of members on their active payroll helped perpetrate amasa's attacks in 178 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:26,960 Israel. Whether it's happening in DC or down on Wall Street, it's affecting 179 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,000 you financially. Be informed. Check out the watch Dot on Wall Street podcast 180 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:33,360 with Chris Markowski on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. 181 00:12:37,159 --> 00:12:43,759 That is so interesting because when you look back at sort of Victorian conceptions of 182 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:50,679 womanhood, there's this whole lost history, especially of you. When we think 183 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:56,840 about Jane Eyre's like a romance novel, but women were writing like incredibly rich 184 00:12:56,799 --> 00:13:03,799 or creating incredibly rich art about womanhood and the advancement of the rights of women. 185 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:09,039 And this is all happening AT's sort of the same times for post Enlightenment 186 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:13,879 or during the Enlightenment. And I want to ask more about that faith than 187 00:13:13,879 --> 00:13:20,279 this. Feminists kind of will either claim Jane Air or fight over whether or 188 00:13:20,279 --> 00:13:24,519 not they should claim Jane, but in doing so, there was this there's 189 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:30,200 this period in the history of uh, you know, call it like the 190 00:13:31,519 --> 00:13:37,200 real first wave the history of feminism where women thought that what needed to be 191 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:41,159 recognized, as you were just saying, is that the inner life of women 192 00:13:41,279 --> 00:13:45,440 was just as rich as the inner life of men that wasn't being recognized. 193 00:13:45,919 --> 00:13:48,200 Talk to us a little bit more about what we find in Jane Eyre as 194 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:54,799 it pertains to that question. Yeah, I think that we do Janeair a 195 00:13:54,879 --> 00:13:58,879 disservice if we think of it as just a romance novel, which I think 196 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:01,480 is kind of the way that it is perceived now. We think of it 197 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:09,000 as kind of the typical byronic hero meets young ingenu kind of story, and 198 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:15,320 it certainly is that it has that within it, but I think that is 199 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:20,960 kind of almost a facade for some of the ideas that Bronte was trying to 200 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:28,440 put forth about women, about spirituality, and about society. I think so. 201 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:35,200 I think in terms of womanhood, there are several examples of women, 202 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:39,080 just as there are several examples of different ways of being a Christian, both 203 00:14:39,159 --> 00:14:46,240 good and bad. There are several examples of womanhood in the book that I 204 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:50,799 think Bronte is using to kind of explore what it means to be a woman 205 00:14:50,879 --> 00:14:58,360 and what it means to be a woman who is completely seen for all the 206 00:14:58,399 --> 00:15:01,840 facets of herself rather than or the kinds of ways that she might be perceived 207 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:07,000 by society. You know. For example, Blanche Ingram is a character in 208 00:15:07,039 --> 00:15:11,960 the book who is the kind of typical woman that maybe they would have expected 209 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,639 at the time, very very kind of beautiful, she does her hair, 210 00:15:16,799 --> 00:15:20,600 she's very interested in appearances, but there's really nothing going on at all beyond 211 00:15:20,679 --> 00:15:26,159 below the surface. And then we have Jane, who is not beautiful at 212 00:15:26,159 --> 00:15:33,320 all and very shy and kind of unassuming, but has this intense moral character 213 00:15:33,879 --> 00:15:37,080 and as we were just talking about, has a very very rich inner life. 214 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:41,279 And then there are a couple of others that I won't spoil who kind 215 00:15:41,279 --> 00:15:45,840 of round out this picture of the different facets of womanhood. And I think 216 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:50,639 it's just a really interesting picture of someone a woman living in this time, 217 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:56,559 living in the Victorian era, trying to kind of puzzle out what it means 218 00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:03,440 to be a woman, and also to put forward theory of womanhood that doesn't 219 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:08,840 completely negate womanhood in the way that modern feminism modern feminism does, but rather 220 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:18,960 offers a fuller picture of womanhood. And I think that's really interesting. And 221 00:16:18,159 --> 00:16:22,919 when we think about Dickens and other writers of this period. I mean, 222 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:25,840 this is, if I'm not mistaken, this is like mid nineteenth century, 223 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:34,399 So you're getting kind of industrial themes and there's this huge industrial effect or influence. 224 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,639 I mean, it really is one of the primary reasons that we start 225 00:16:38,639 --> 00:16:44,600 having these conversations about men and women and they're any separation of labor and all 226 00:16:44,639 --> 00:16:47,799 of that. Is there anything This is not a leading question at all, 227 00:16:47,919 --> 00:16:51,720 but revisiting the book, is there is there anything in there that's dealing with 228 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:55,879 those themes and things we don't think about as technology now, but we're certainly 229 00:16:56,480 --> 00:17:00,240 advancements back then. It's an interesting question because about this too, because you're 230 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:04,160 right, it does take place right kind of in the middle or at the 231 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,799 tail end of the Industrial Revolution. The book was published in eighteen forty seven, 232 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:12,359 I believe. And but what was interesting about the book is that it 233 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:19,920 takes place completely outside of cities, so it is completely removed from the kind 234 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:25,279 of epicenter of those ideas and the as you say, the work and the 235 00:17:25,279 --> 00:17:30,240 way that you know women's work was changing because of the onset of factories and 236 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:34,599 industrialization and all of those things. But this story happens you know. Jane 237 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,920 actually at one point is very clear. Mister Rochester asks her if she's ever 238 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:41,480 been to the city, and she says, no, I've never been to 239 00:17:41,559 --> 00:17:45,319 a city. You know, she's she's never left, you know, the 240 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:49,680 different kind of rural environs, and the entire plot takes place in a very 241 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:56,200 remote and rural place. So that's a kind of interesting. It's an interesting 242 00:17:56,279 --> 00:18:00,160 question because you know, again I'm not a Brounde scholar or or Victorian scholar, 243 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,480 but this book to me seems like it is kind of in some ways 244 00:18:03,559 --> 00:18:11,319 removed from that, but obviously taking place within that Millieau for sure. Why 245 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:14,880 do you think or how do you think? I mean, it's such a 246 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:22,359 it's an incredible skill to write in a way that resonates throughout time, and 247 00:18:22,599 --> 00:18:25,680 you know, going back to the ancients, we have examples of this. 248 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,480 What do you think it is not just about Jane Eyre, but what do 249 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:36,000 you think makes an author successful to resonate with people that are living in completely 250 00:18:36,039 --> 00:18:42,559 different contexts but still you know, capture something and still move people. How 251 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:48,799 do the most successful authors manage to do that? I think it's about capturing 252 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:56,200 the essence of human nature because It's true that times change, and situations change, 253 00:18:56,240 --> 00:19:00,640 and ideas change, and society has changed. But people, there is 254 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:06,039 an essential quality of humanity and essential quality of human nature. And I think 255 00:19:06,079 --> 00:19:10,240 if you're able to capture that, then your story will resonate down the ages, 256 00:19:10,559 --> 00:19:14,240 and there will be no worry that we won't understand it as long as 257 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,279 we can parse the language, you know. I think that's why Shakespeare, 258 00:19:17,279 --> 00:19:22,000 for example, is so profound and has and has stayed with us so long, 259 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:26,839 is because he was kind of the master of capturing the human experience. 260 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:30,119 And I think, you know, when you look at yeah, of course, 261 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,400 you know, Jane Eyre has this what we kind of think of now 262 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,200 as a sort of romance novel trope of the kind of dark, brooding man 263 00:19:37,319 --> 00:19:41,880 with a past and you know, the young ingenu But we're still obsessed with 264 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:48,359 the bad boy today, right, We still are kind of excited by the 265 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:52,279 guy and his leather jacket who you know has a heart of gold. That's 266 00:19:52,319 --> 00:19:56,640 still true. So I think if you're able to capture something that is true 267 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:02,519 about the things that light us up and make us who we are, then 268 00:20:02,559 --> 00:20:06,640 it doesn't exactly matter what's going on in your story. It's going to resonate. 269 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:14,480 I have to ask you about the mystery element of this, because there 270 00:20:14,519 --> 00:20:18,680 are a million different think pieces on the internet right now about what it is 271 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:23,440 with women and true crime and some great theories. But I think it's more 272 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:27,119 than true crime. It's sort of mystery in general. Is there something we 273 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:34,440 can learn from Jane Eyre, Maybe women just loving mystery, women being attracted 274 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:38,880 to mystery, although of course it sounds to me like Bronte actually wasn't writing 275 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:44,359 this specifically for female audience, but it's resonated with women, probably more than 276 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:48,839 men for centuries. Now. Is there is there anything we can take from 277 00:20:48,839 --> 00:20:52,400 that? Or am I stretching here faith? Oh gosh, you know that's 278 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:56,440 such a good question. And I don't want to reveal too much about the 279 00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:00,599 mystery in Jane Air because I think that's like a huge it's the so we 280 00:21:00,599 --> 00:21:03,799 don't want to reveal the end of the of the mystery, the solution to 281 00:21:03,839 --> 00:21:07,680 the mystery. I wonder. I don't know, and I've never thought about 282 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:14,000 this because I myself am not a particularly true crime officionado. I don't quite 283 00:21:14,079 --> 00:21:17,440 understand what is happening, but I agree that it is happening. We are 284 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:22,079 in a time when people are so obsessed with this, But I wonder if 285 00:21:22,079 --> 00:21:26,680 it has something to do with what Grande was talking about and what we were 286 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:32,319 just talking about about a woman's inner life, the way that you know, 287 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:37,200 most of us are not going to go off and solve a mystery. Most 288 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:40,680 of us are not unless we are police officers or detectives. Most of us 289 00:21:40,759 --> 00:21:47,720 are not going to kind of even even ferret out the different kind of emotional 290 00:21:48,279 --> 00:21:51,559 backlog of our friends' issues. You know, we're not going to do that. 291 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:57,079 But we do have this kind of rich and intense inner live life that 292 00:21:57,279 --> 00:22:03,400 does often for women, a circle around emotions and people and the ways that 293 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:07,960 people interact with each other and their relationships and all of those things. And 294 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:11,799 that makes us really really good at kind of solving solving mysteries that I don't 295 00:22:11,839 --> 00:22:18,079 Know's that's all I've got, No, it's it's extremely interesting. I think 296 00:22:18,079 --> 00:22:22,119 there's probably a lot of truth to that. Is there going to be a 297 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:26,240 great millennial novelist faith? Because Bronte was fairly young when writing this? Am 298 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:30,839 I wrong about that? She was? Yes, I don't know her actual 299 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:34,319 exact age, but she was fairly young and died fairly young, right, 300 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:37,559 Okay, so I mean I don't mean to just say millennial, but that 301 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,359 was another one of those questions that a million different think pieces of dressed will, 302 00:22:41,559 --> 00:22:45,400 would there ever be a great millennial writer? And you know what we 303 00:22:45,559 --> 00:22:49,480 got was, what was that awful Irish novelist? Maybe you like the book, 304 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:57,279 probably not they made it into a movie. Anyway, it was bad. 305 00:22:57,319 --> 00:23:04,200 It was like the writing was so stilted and you know, taken clearly 306 00:23:04,279 --> 00:23:11,079 from a world of text messages and email and social media. It just felt 307 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,319 like that. And maybe that's a controversial. It's called something with friends, 308 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:18,079 I think anyway, I think it sounds like it was a good thing. 309 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,519 But you know, the when you read the pros of Bronte, uh, 310 00:23:25,839 --> 00:23:27,720 you read the pros of Dickens, as we talked about before, there's a 311 00:23:27,839 --> 00:23:33,839 richness to it that it seems difficult to Uh. I have a hard time 312 00:23:33,839 --> 00:23:38,880 imagining anybody who lives in the modern world and not you know, full unibomber 313 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:44,960 and a cabin by themselves, sitting down with you know, their their keyboard 314 00:23:45,039 --> 00:23:49,640 or pen and writing that way. Do have thoughts faith on whether you know, 315 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:56,200 there's really something being lost that as an industry, publishing is going to 316 00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:00,319 have a hard time recapturing. Well, I think that the one perhaps silver 317 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:06,480 lining or positive thing that we can say about this is that the novels of 318 00:24:06,519 --> 00:24:11,519 the past have the benefit of time. We have the benefit of having now 319 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,799 these books that have the other books have been weeded out. You know, 320 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,119 like there was a lot of bad literature going on at the time too. 321 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,759 You know, there's a lot of bad Victorian literature. There's a lot of 322 00:24:21,799 --> 00:24:25,000 bad literature going on in Shakespeare's time. There's a lot of bad literature all 323 00:24:25,039 --> 00:24:29,359 the time. And yet you know, because of because of time and the 324 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:33,559 sort of quality of winnowing things out, and the fact that these books really 325 00:24:33,599 --> 00:24:37,160 are great, we get to keep these books and then we think of them 326 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:41,000 as Victorian literature. But I mean, there was there was a lot of 327 00:24:41,039 --> 00:24:44,720 garbage going on back then too, just like there is a lot of garbage 328 00:24:44,759 --> 00:24:48,079 going on right now. And I think the question is are there little gems 329 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:52,319 in the garbage that eventually will rise to the surface, or however, we 330 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:57,480 want to complete this metaphor and you know, be the texts that people one 331 00:24:57,519 --> 00:25:02,480 hundred years from now, we're member or is it going to be like our 332 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:04,599 text messages and our emails, and it's just going to be, you know, 333 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:11,599 horrible, horrible nonsense. I I really don't know. It's certainly true 334 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:21,480 that we are in a moment where fiction and stories are really devalued. People 335 00:25:21,519 --> 00:25:26,920 I think today often don't really understand the point of stories. They don't they 336 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,359 want to read the news, they want facts, they want to know what's 337 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:33,960 going on in politics, and all of those things are important. But stories 338 00:25:33,039 --> 00:25:40,200 are the underpinning of life. They're the underpinning of society. The things that 339 00:25:40,319 --> 00:25:44,799 happen in these old books that seem sort of dusty and unimportant to us now 340 00:25:45,319 --> 00:25:48,720 are the things that inform our current thinking. I mean that example I just 341 00:25:48,839 --> 00:25:52,440 used of kind of we still love the Bad Boy is kind of a flip 342 00:25:52,519 --> 00:25:55,480 example, but it does kind of show this through line of like we are 343 00:25:55,559 --> 00:26:00,279 still thinking this way. We wouldn't we wouldn't know about the bad Boy trope. 344 00:26:00,559 --> 00:26:03,519 If you know, there hadn't been Lord Byron and then after him, 345 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:07,519 people like Charlotte Bronte, who wrote these characters, we wouldn't know about that. 346 00:26:07,559 --> 00:26:14,839 We wouldn't have that trope at all. So I think it's possible that 347 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:19,599 there is nothing today that parallels the books of the past, but I also 348 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,839 think it's possible that there is, and that those things will kind of get 349 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:27,880 shaken out in time. I you know, there are authors that I really 350 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:33,240 do love today. One of them is a woman named Curtis Sittenfeld, whose 351 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,720 politics I completely disagree with, but her books are fantastic because of the way 352 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,920 that she writes, and because, as I was just talking about about these 353 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:48,359 authors of the past, she really understands people like the human experience, and 354 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:52,720 the way that she writes, you just get very wrapped up in who these 355 00:26:52,759 --> 00:26:55,480 people are. And so you know, if her books were to kind of 356 00:26:55,759 --> 00:26:59,720 stand the test of time, that wouldn't surprise me. So I'm hopeful. 357 00:26:59,839 --> 00:27:03,000 But it is a little it's a little dicey. I think I have been 358 00:27:03,079 --> 00:27:08,720 watching the hilarious videos of people with their new Apple goggles on through New York 359 00:27:08,759 --> 00:27:14,319 City and Los Angeles all weekend. So your optimism is just a breath of 360 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:18,119 fresh Well, if I had been watching those videos, I think I would 361 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:22,640 probably be a lot less optimistic. That's scary, that's really frightening to me. 362 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:26,119 The book I was thinking of is called Conversations with Friends by Sally Rooney. 363 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,680 It was like massively yes, right, right, right, okay, 364 00:27:29,759 --> 00:27:30,640 Yes, I didn't read it, but I did. I have heard of 365 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:37,400 it. Yeah, don't thank you loved it though, you know. Another 366 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:41,039 book that I didn't like was Daisy Jones in the six Did you read that 367 00:27:41,079 --> 00:27:42,640 one? I didn't read that. I you know, to be honest, 368 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:47,799 a lot of these books I can just sort of tell from looking at them, 369 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:55,240 no thank you books. The popularity of books is really no comment on 370 00:27:55,559 --> 00:28:00,599 their actual value and whether they're could. You know. I just think sometimes 371 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,279 things grab the zeitgeist and run with it, but in the end they're not 372 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:07,880 very good. Well, and I think, but knowing what's popular in books 373 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,160 now, because books are like, actually buying books is sort of a niche 374 00:28:11,279 --> 00:28:15,680 slice population. People don't buy books, so it's a really easily manipulated market, 375 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:22,279 Like the charts are very responsive to people with disproportionately huge platforms, and 376 00:28:22,799 --> 00:28:27,200 man, and I have no I'm you know, I don't read a lot 377 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,000 of novels. I have a hard time writing novels. I like nonfiction, 378 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:34,440 but when I do I'll go to the charts, usually because I just want 379 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,400 something easy that I'll get my brain out of like an Internet pattern. I 380 00:28:38,559 --> 00:28:45,480 just want to sort of look at a page virtual and it's just it's hard. 381 00:28:45,599 --> 00:28:48,960 Now I'm not I don't have a problem with like, you know, 382 00:28:49,119 --> 00:28:55,599 super super popular and you know, mid level written for the lowest common denominator 383 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:59,759 stuff, But Daisy Jones and the six which is massively popular. Conversations with 384 00:28:59,799 --> 00:29:03,559 friends, it's massively popular. I've just found the writing to be so bad 385 00:29:03,599 --> 00:29:06,960 that I can't get through it even with people who I trust. But it's 386 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:11,039 just it's really hard to respect the pros. It's distractingly bad. I agree, 387 00:29:11,079 --> 00:29:17,559 I have a really hard time reading bad writing. I really struggle to 388 00:29:17,599 --> 00:29:19,240 get into a plot if the writing is bad. But I think what you 389 00:29:19,279 --> 00:29:22,640 just said a minute ago about, you know, having more to do with 390 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:27,640 the popularity of either the author or the person who's promoting the book is huge. 391 00:29:27,839 --> 00:29:32,640 You know, publishing has really changed a lot. You Know, it 392 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,279 used to be that Bronte could publish this book under the name Courbella and no 393 00:29:36,279 --> 00:29:38,480 one would know who she was. Right the book would come out and people 394 00:29:38,519 --> 00:29:41,039 would just think, oh, it's by some guy, mister bell you know, 395 00:29:41,119 --> 00:29:45,880 and nobody asked. But now the author is part of the package, 396 00:29:45,359 --> 00:29:48,720 you know, which I of course learned when I published my novel. Or 397 00:29:48,839 --> 00:29:52,279 the author is part of the package, and the author is expected to be 398 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,480 someone that people can look at and say, not so much. Oh am 399 00:29:56,519 --> 00:30:00,759 I interested in this story? But am I interested in this person? And 400 00:30:00,799 --> 00:30:04,119 then I'm willing to give this person my money, my time, my attention. 401 00:30:04,599 --> 00:30:10,440 And if that's the case, then it sometimes doesn't matter what's actually in 402 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,079 the book, if what you're going for is more, you know, a 403 00:30:14,119 --> 00:30:17,720 relationship with the person who wrote it. And it's an interesting shift that's going 404 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:21,079 on that I've been kind of watching for the last few months or so. 405 00:30:22,279 --> 00:30:25,680 How do you feel about reading a kindle? This is such a specific question, 406 00:30:25,759 --> 00:30:27,400 but I'm just going with it because this conversation is really interesting to me. 407 00:30:27,759 --> 00:30:33,160 So this is really controversial. This is a really controversial topic because I'm 408 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:37,359 going to throw in audio books also, who you just poured gasoline all over 409 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,200 the fire? I really did? I really did. Because I feel like 410 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:45,160 the question now is what does it mean to read rite quote unquote read? 411 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,920 Are you reading if you are on a kindle? Are you reading if you 412 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,279 are listening to the book, or do you have to be holding a physical 413 00:30:53,720 --> 00:31:00,119 book. So I am a physical book person. I really feel like I 414 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,759 don't get the full experience of the story unless I am holding the book in 415 00:31:03,799 --> 00:31:06,759 my hands. I can feel with my thumb how many pages are left. 416 00:31:06,759 --> 00:31:08,480 I don't like on the kindle that I you know, of course tells you 417 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,640 what percent, But what do I know about what percent? You know, 418 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,839 I want to feel with my thumb, this is how many pages are left. 419 00:31:14,839 --> 00:31:18,000 I want to turn the page and kind of experience that. That's part 420 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:22,119 of my experience of reading. On the other hand, a kindle is really 421 00:31:22,119 --> 00:31:26,079 really useful, and you know, you can just throw it in your backpack 422 00:31:26,119 --> 00:31:30,319 and your purse or whatever and go and if it makes it so that you 423 00:31:30,359 --> 00:31:34,000 read more, then I think there's nothing wrong with the kindle. I used 424 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,559 a kindle for a long time when my kids were small, and I was 425 00:31:37,599 --> 00:31:41,039 like feeding them or doing something with one hand. You know that I could 426 00:31:41,079 --> 00:31:45,319 like look at the kindle with the other. So I just kind of transitioned 427 00:31:45,319 --> 00:31:48,599 back to books because I decided I didn't want to be a kindle person. 428 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:53,759 But I have nothing against kindles or kindle people. It does. It's the 429 00:31:53,799 --> 00:31:56,960 screen, you know, if you feel like, oh, I don't want 430 00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,759 the light in my face or whatever. There's that, and then you know, 431 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:06,079 listening. I have never gotten into audiobooks. I can't. I don't 432 00:32:06,119 --> 00:32:09,720 experience them the same way as I do when I'm reading. It's not my 433 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:14,680 voice that's coming into my head. It's someone else's voice. So I think 434 00:32:15,039 --> 00:32:16,519 this is where people are going to. You know, please don't write me 435 00:32:16,559 --> 00:32:21,599 angry letters. But I think that if you're listening to a book instead of 436 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:25,359 reading it, you have the book in your mind just as much as I 437 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,759 have the book in my mind. So we can have a conversation about the 438 00:32:28,759 --> 00:32:31,160 book at exactly the same level as if you had read it. But I 439 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:36,119 think they're two very different experiences. I think you've done something different than I 440 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,319 have done, not necessarily worse. Although for me, I prefer to read 441 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,960 the book. I'll just leave it there. No, No, it's a 442 00:32:44,079 --> 00:32:49,440 really worthwhile conversation. I think I love the Kindle, but I prefer books. 443 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:51,839 Yeah. The Kindle, yeah, exactly, like you said, it 444 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:53,720 has so many uses. It's so easy. You don't have to wait a 445 00:32:53,759 --> 00:32:57,880 few days to get a book. You can just exactly then where your interests 446 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:04,000 go. You can get Kindle unlimited and all of that. You really can 447 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,599 broaden your horizons and hop around between different books, almost like you're in a 448 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:09,839 library. Yeah, no, it's great. I mean I'm always like requesting 449 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:14,319 things from my library and then waiting several weeks because like somebody else has it 450 00:33:14,319 --> 00:33:16,119 on hold, and then I have to actually go physically to the library and 451 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,440 get the book, whereas yeah, the Kindle, it's just right there, 452 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,319 right there, and you know, then your interest, doesn't you wane or 453 00:33:23,319 --> 00:33:28,039 whatever in any given topic. Although this is mostly applies to nonfiction from my 454 00:33:28,119 --> 00:33:30,640 perspective. Sure, but my friend Snager swears that if you listen to the 455 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:35,119 audiobook, it's the exact same thing as having read the book. I'm also 456 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:40,559 not in audiobooks. I've been trying really slowly to get through Neil Ferguson's Empire 457 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:45,960 on audiobook, which is so I mean, it's taking me forever because I 458 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:50,359 have to keep pausing to absorb the information in a way that when you're reading 459 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,480 you can take notes in the margin, or it just you feel like it's 460 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:57,400 absorbing. Maybe it's just me, but you feel like it's absorbing into your 461 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:01,200 brain in a way that if you're listening while you so you're multitasking. It 462 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,960 doesn't quite sink in. Yeah, I mean, I think it's true that 463 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:10,559 people learn differently. So there are kind of people who take in information auditorially, 464 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:15,119 but there are other people who take in information visually through reading. So 465 00:34:15,159 --> 00:34:17,880 I think that, like, you know, my experience, because I have 466 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,760 the same experience. If I listen to an audiobook, like my brain just 467 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,920 goes somewhere else. I have to stop and go back because I missed everything 468 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,880 because I was thinking about something else, versus if I'm actually reading, I'm 469 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:30,599 much more engaged with the text. But I think other people are the other 470 00:34:30,639 --> 00:34:34,719 way around. You know, when they try to read a physical book, 471 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,320 their mind wanders, but then somehow when they're listening, their mind is much 472 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:42,360 more engaged. So I think it's there is probably something to be said about 473 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,480 sort of just the different ways that people ingest information. But I do think 474 00:34:46,519 --> 00:34:52,480 that it's not true to say that experiencing an audiobook is reading. I think 475 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:57,320 that's not what reading is. Agree totally agree. It's amazing what they do 476 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,519 with audiobooks with the voice acting and something like Harry. I've heard those like 477 00:35:00,599 --> 00:35:05,679 mystery novels Oh yeah, I'll get into it. It's a different experience, 478 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:07,599 you know. I mean, I'm sort of realizing this with this podcast, 479 00:35:07,639 --> 00:35:12,199 because in essence, what I'm doing is an audiobook of Jane Eyra. But 480 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:15,280 I'm just kind of offering a few notes. So it's an interesting thing where 481 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,360 I'll get to something and be like, oh, well, wait, how 482 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:21,840 does this person talk? You know, I hear their voice in my mind, 483 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:25,159 but I can't I can't make that happen, right, So, I 484 00:35:25,159 --> 00:35:29,559 mean that's kind of what is so interesting to me is that all of these 485 00:35:29,679 --> 00:35:31,400 characters, I mean, take Jane Air again, but all of these characters 486 00:35:31,599 --> 00:35:37,519 when I read the book have very specific voices in my head, you know. 487 00:35:37,639 --> 00:35:42,960 And but now I'm one person. I'm a woman, So then there 488 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,440 are male characters. What do I do about that? And so I think 489 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:51,519 when we're experiencing these books via someone else reading them, we have to deal 490 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:57,840 with the limitations of their acting ability, of their voice quality, of the 491 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,079 fact that they're a man or a woman, and different characters are different genders, 492 00:36:01,079 --> 00:36:06,000 et cetera. And it makes for a totally different experience, more of 493 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:10,519 a theatric experience than a sort of internal reading experience. Yeah, it's like 494 00:36:10,559 --> 00:36:15,199 the old time radio shows exactly. Yeah, which I sat podcasts that do 495 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:22,119 that too. What is it like breaking down that Victorian rhetoric as you're trying 496 00:36:22,159 --> 00:36:27,199 to, you know, help people find these texts more accessible and approachable? 497 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,159 What is it? What is it like as you're kind of parsing the pros 498 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:38,079 from Bronte and and you know, wading through it to help people find it 499 00:36:38,119 --> 00:36:44,000 to be more accessible. What are the challenges or maybe even the pleasures of 500 00:36:44,079 --> 00:36:47,800 doing that. It's been fascinating because I've read this book so many times, 501 00:36:49,199 --> 00:36:52,559 but there are still things where I'll stop and say, I don't know what 502 00:36:52,599 --> 00:36:53,840 that means. I don't have to go away and look it up. And 503 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:59,039 then there's the question of well, how much do you need to know in 504 00:36:59,119 --> 00:37:02,440 order to understand the book? I could explain so much more than I am, 505 00:37:02,519 --> 00:37:06,119 but then it would just be me talking instead of the book, and 506 00:37:06,159 --> 00:37:08,000 I think people would hate that. So for me, it really is a 507 00:37:08,079 --> 00:37:15,280 question of, okay, how what are the absolutely essential things for you to 508 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:19,840 know that might not be clear to a modern reader, And I will explain 509 00:37:20,079 --> 00:37:22,800 those. And then that's why the kind of question and answer section of the 510 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,760 show is so great because then people write in and say other things that they 511 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:30,519 want me to explain. You know, today's episode has a whole conversation about 512 00:37:30,559 --> 00:37:35,920 the expression gall and wormwood, what it means to have ball in wormwood in 513 00:37:36,599 --> 00:37:40,039 your speech, and the person that wrote in related that to wormwood from the 514 00:37:40,039 --> 00:37:44,239 Screwtape Letters by C. S. Lewis and wanted to know if those things 515 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,559 were related. So you can do these really really deep dives and go into 516 00:37:47,599 --> 00:37:52,719 these crazy rabbit holes, and I love to do it, but I'm always 517 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:58,000 also very very careful to not do it in the actual chapter portion because I 518 00:37:58,039 --> 00:38:02,519 think you don't need that. And that's kind of the problem actually with modern 519 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,599 lectures or English classes. You know. I was an English major in college, 520 00:38:07,599 --> 00:38:10,599 and I remember I took a class on Wordsworth and we had one day 521 00:38:10,679 --> 00:38:16,440 where we spent the entire class on like two words in a Wordsworth poem, 522 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:22,000 and I walked away feeling like that's terrible. No one should do that. 523 00:38:22,199 --> 00:38:27,960 You shouldn't do that if unless you are an actual Wordsworth scholar who spends their 524 00:38:28,119 --> 00:38:31,400 entire day thinking about Wordsworth, you know, because when we do that to 525 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,480 people, we make them think that that's the level at which they should be 526 00:38:35,519 --> 00:38:40,199 reading these stories. They should understand every single little reference, every single little 527 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:45,360 phrase. And the truth is these are good stories. There are good stories 528 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:49,360 in the same way that a modern novel is a good story, and you 529 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:53,360 can read them without having to analyze them or parse every little thing. We 530 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:57,719 think because they're old and because they're classics, we have to analyze them, 531 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,000 we have to really delve deeply in to them. We can, and it's 532 00:39:00,039 --> 00:39:04,440 super fun to do. But also we should just be able to read them 533 00:39:04,599 --> 00:39:07,079 and enjoy the story and the characters, these people and what's going on with 534 00:39:07,119 --> 00:39:13,239 them, because it's really exciting and engaging to do that. So for me, 535 00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:15,480 it's been about that balance. You know, how do we balance the 536 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:20,679 level of understanding that we need in order to get the story in order for 537 00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:27,079 the story to kind of come into our minds and paint itself there without bogging 538 00:39:27,079 --> 00:39:30,239 ourselves down. And you know, like, what is the significance of you 539 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:34,119 know, the red room in chapter three? You know, we don't we 540 00:39:34,159 --> 00:39:36,920 don't want to do that unless that's what we want to do, and then 541 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,239 we can we can go down those those deep dives because I do I do 542 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:43,559 enjoy them, I must confess, but they're not. You don't need them 543 00:39:43,599 --> 00:39:46,559 in order to understand the story. I love that. Have you seen the 544 00:39:47,159 --> 00:39:51,159 episode of Friends? Do you know where I'm going with us? Where? 545 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:53,119 No? I mean I have, because I've seen all the Friends. But 546 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:58,159 there's a Janare episode of Friends. Yes, and it's fantastic. It's really 547 00:39:58,159 --> 00:40:00,920 the best sort of subplots. Yeah, it's a be storyline where Phoebe and 548 00:40:01,039 --> 00:40:09,280 Rachel sign up for like a community college class on classic literature, and Rachel 549 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:15,039 doesn't do the reading. And this is now ringing a very very distant bell. 550 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:22,119 It's Jane Eyre and Rachel Phoebe there. They're stealing these like really esoteric 551 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:29,079 readings of Jane although they're coming. It's so good. It's so good. 552 00:40:29,159 --> 00:40:30,280 But I was curious, Faith, if you had seen that, because it's 553 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:35,639 a the fact that they chose Jane Eyre for these two kind of thirty something 554 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:42,800 women in New York City the book where you can have that kind of intellectual 555 00:40:43,199 --> 00:40:47,519 takeaway. And one of the I forget whether it's Phoebe realizes that Rachel has 556 00:40:47,559 --> 00:40:52,599 been cribbing from her. So one of them tells the other that the book 557 00:40:52,639 --> 00:40:55,599 is like actually about robots because they hadn't read She says it in front of 558 00:40:55,639 --> 00:41:00,000 this like sweater vest wearing profess than she likes the robots, right right, 559 00:41:00,599 --> 00:41:04,440 They're great. The robots are great. We're going to get to that in 560 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:07,920 the podcast. Yeah, those robots. Okay, So keep listening to storing 561 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:13,559 time for grown ups to hear about the robots and Jane Air exactly. Yes, 562 00:41:13,639 --> 00:41:15,119 and you know, and write to me about them when you when you 563 00:41:15,199 --> 00:41:22,119 notice them, because they're subtle. Can people pick up the podcast right now, 564 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:27,760 jump in and you know, maybe catch up on the previous episodes. 565 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,159 Yeah. So the best thing to do is if you have never read Janeair 566 00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:35,039 at all, the best thing to do is go back back and started episode 567 00:41:35,039 --> 00:41:37,920 one, because we are reading the book in its entirety, So start with 568 00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:40,719 one. If you have read Jane Air, but you're just interested in hearing 569 00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:46,360 the kind of notes and the comments and listening to the questions and the analysis, 570 00:41:46,519 --> 00:41:51,519 then you can jump right in. So Jane Air Complete movies should start 571 00:41:51,559 --> 00:41:54,599 with episode one, but people who have some familiarity with the story can jump 572 00:41:54,679 --> 00:41:58,480 right in. Where we are. I love it all right. Well, 573 00:41:58,519 --> 00:42:00,800 the podcast once again is called story Time for grown ups with Faith Moore. 574 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:05,760 You can find out more information about Faith in her work at Faith Kate Moore 575 00:42:06,119 --> 00:42:08,960 m o o r e dot com. Faith thank you so much for coming 576 00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:12,360 back on the show. Thanks so much for having me. This was lots 577 00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:15,480 of fun. Of course, you have been listening to another edition of The 578 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:19,079 Federalist Radio Hour. A Memily Dratchenski, culture editor Cure at The Federalist. 579 00:42:19,119 --> 00:42:22,360 We'll be back soon with Until then, be lovers of freedom and anxious for 580 00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:42,039 the fray her and the fav ser reason. And then it faded away.