WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.640 --> 00:00:04.440 This is doctor Wendy Walsh and you're listening to KFI AM six forty the Doctor 2 00:00:04.440 --> 00:00:08.919 Wendy Walsh Show on demand on the iHeartRadio app. Welcome back to the Doctor 3 00:00:08.919 --> 00:00:14.080 Wendy Walls Show on KFI AM six forty. We're live everywhere on the iHeartRadio 4 00:00:14.119 --> 00:00:18.239 App. I have a special guest who's one of my favorite friends of the 5 00:00:18.280 --> 00:00:25.559 show because he's a researcher in attachment theory and everything else and neuroscience, and 6 00:00:25.640 --> 00:00:30.320 he doesn't talk like a bumbling scientist. He talks like a regular media person, 7 00:00:30.640 --> 00:00:34.320 which is the best of the best. He is professor at the Department 8 00:00:34.320 --> 00:00:39.320 of Psychology the University of Kansas, and he's spent more than two decades doing 9 00:00:39.439 --> 00:00:44.039 research on close relationships. He teaches psychology, he mentors students. He's been 10 00:00:44.079 --> 00:00:49.679 published in over a hundred publications. Welcome Doctor Omri Gillett. How are you. 11 00:00:50.719 --> 00:00:53.479 I'm great. Good thing it's on a radio because you can't see how 12 00:00:53.479 --> 00:00:57.439 I blush here. Yeah, it's great to be back. It's wonderful. 13 00:00:57.479 --> 00:01:00.719 And I continue to read your work and I'm just jealous and envious because I 14 00:01:00.759 --> 00:01:04.480 have like a secret desire to be in a research lab, but I think 15 00:01:04.519 --> 00:01:08.760 it's important that I also do the work of translating a lot of this research 16 00:01:08.879 --> 00:01:12.280 to the general public, so it's news you can use. As I like 17 00:01:12.359 --> 00:01:15.439 to say, absolutely, I think it's super important what you do, and 18 00:01:17.280 --> 00:01:23.120 it's something that we academics should do more get it out there. So I 19 00:01:23.200 --> 00:01:27.200 want to talk about attachment theory. When I was in graduate school and I 20 00:01:27.239 --> 00:01:32.159 first started learning about John Bulby, well, I learned about many many theorists, 21 00:01:32.480 --> 00:01:36.439 but it was the one theory that spoke to me because it was so 22 00:01:36.560 --> 00:01:38.920 easy for me to understand. It was so practical. There was so much 23 00:01:40.040 --> 00:01:44.799 data and research compared to jungi In and Freudian and all this other kind of 24 00:01:44.920 --> 00:01:49.040 clinian and here was this guy who put data to it. Can we talk 25 00:01:49.079 --> 00:01:53.719 a little bit about the early days of attachment theory and how we got to 26 00:01:53.760 --> 00:01:57.040 this place where we're today where people ask on a first date, hey, 27 00:01:57.079 --> 00:02:02.680 what's your attachment style? Yeah, it's it's it's quite amazing. You know, 28 00:02:02.959 --> 00:02:07.239 if if you if I know that you are on social media, it's 29 00:02:07.599 --> 00:02:12.199 you can get so much information today about attachment and and you know, on 30 00:02:12.280 --> 00:02:14.439 the one and it's great. You know, you can get a talk of 31 00:02:14.560 --> 00:02:17.319 thirty seconds about attachment and attachment style. And at the same time, I 32 00:02:17.319 --> 00:02:23.759 think that sometimes people missed the main points. But the beginning of attachment was 33 00:02:23.759 --> 00:02:27.080 was the early work of Bobby, who was who was trying to become a 34 00:02:27.639 --> 00:02:30.479 surgeon at first, like his dad and his granddad before him and so forth. 35 00:02:30.520 --> 00:02:34.639 And then he got bored of being a surgeon and actually, you know, 36 00:02:34.719 --> 00:02:39.560 change it into studying and psychology and psychiatry. And he was looking at 37 00:02:40.039 --> 00:02:46.400 some of his interactions with kids and what is sort of kids have these styles 38 00:02:46.520 --> 00:02:51.919 and they seemed to be behaving in different ways that are associated with their early 39 00:02:52.039 --> 00:02:54.520 relationships. Um, so a lot of what he was looking at was about 40 00:02:54.560 --> 00:03:00.680 separation and losing someone special, you know, like a p aaron over sibling, 41 00:03:01.879 --> 00:03:08.479 and this laws is what got him thinking about these processes of attachment and 42 00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:13.479 laws, and so that was his kind of early beginnings. He was talking 43 00:03:13.520 --> 00:03:16.439 about specific two kids, one of them that was flowing him around like a 44 00:03:16.479 --> 00:03:22.800 shadow, almost like trying to merge with him, which later on he called 45 00:03:23.080 --> 00:03:27.800 an attachment an anxious attachment style, and the other one, the other kid, 46 00:03:27.879 --> 00:03:30.000 was more like, you know, hiding and not wanting to come into 47 00:03:30.039 --> 00:03:34.199 contact too much, and it was more avoiding, and that was the avoiding 48 00:03:34.240 --> 00:03:38.960 attachment. So Bobby started talking about that, started talking about, you know, 49 00:03:38.400 --> 00:03:44.000 experiences of for example, parents going to the hospital and leaving their kids 50 00:03:44.039 --> 00:03:47.599 there for for a long while because they had to go through a procedure. 51 00:03:47.759 --> 00:03:53.400 And he actually at the same time that germ theory was happening, and so 52 00:03:53.560 --> 00:03:55.879 parents and families were told, don't visit your sick kid in the hospital. 53 00:03:57.039 --> 00:04:01.000 We'll give them terms, and as any they abandoned these poor little kids. 54 00:04:01.719 --> 00:04:03.800 Yeah, it was I mean, you can see the movie. It's it's 55 00:04:03.840 --> 00:04:08.960 online, you can just YouTube it, and you see the little girl loris 56 00:04:09.039 --> 00:04:11.400 there, you know, and it's crying. How you know, she's being 57 00:04:11.439 --> 00:04:15.519 basically torn from her parents. So Bobby looked at that and and his first 58 00:04:15.600 --> 00:04:17.600 kind of thing to do, well, they actually say, you know what, 59 00:04:17.639 --> 00:04:20.639 we got to stop. This is not the right way to go about 60 00:04:20.680 --> 00:04:24.360 that. And that was one of the big changes that it made, was 61 00:04:24.399 --> 00:04:28.759 that basically parents should be around their kids even when they're staying at the hospital. 62 00:04:28.800 --> 00:04:30.439 And you know, obviously today you know, parents can stay with their 63 00:04:30.480 --> 00:04:34.279 kids in the same rule and so on. So so that was the early 64 00:04:34.319 --> 00:04:38.399 beginnings. Then he started kind of like thinking where it's all coming from. 65 00:04:38.519 --> 00:04:43.079 And he was, you know, highly educated, very kindnowledgeable, and all 66 00:04:43.160 --> 00:04:46.959 kinds of different disciplines, and he started putting things together. So he looked 67 00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:50.879 at things like control theory, so you know, how are we controlling things? 68 00:04:51.519 --> 00:04:56.079 Think about early AI can work all the way back then, you know, 69 00:04:56.240 --> 00:05:01.160 understanding publitive processes and evolutionary psychology. You know, again the early beginnings 70 00:05:01.160 --> 00:05:06.319 of that. And he talks about the existing of an attachment system, so 71 00:05:06.319 --> 00:05:11.879 we all like, we have this model inside our head, this blueprint for 72 00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:17.920 love that starts early in life. Was Bobby aware early on that this could 73 00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:26.519 be a predeterminant of our adult romantic relationships. He didn't mention in so many 74 00:05:26.519 --> 00:05:29.480 words, but he definitely talked about a touchment being an important part of our 75 00:05:29.480 --> 00:05:32.959 lives throughout of our lifespans. He said, it's it's from the cradle to 76 00:05:33.000 --> 00:05:39.360 the grave, and it's it's going to be there always, and so theoretically, 77 00:05:39.439 --> 00:05:43.720 yes, practically he wasn't quite there. He focused more on kids, 78 00:05:43.720 --> 00:05:46.519 and then he worked with Mary Ann's Verse who was one of his collaborators, 79 00:05:46.519 --> 00:05:49.879 and they developed what we call the Strange situation. So it's a procedure in 80 00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:56.399 the lab that allows you to classify and infants into into specific attachment styles. 81 00:05:56.439 --> 00:06:01.480 But they both focused mainly on the kids and tolders and so on, and 82 00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:09.079 it took a while until people like Robert Wise and Hasan and Chaver suggested, 83 00:06:09.120 --> 00:06:12.480 well, you know what, you can actually take the same seeing and same 84 00:06:12.519 --> 00:06:19.160 ideas and conceptualizations and classification and apply them to adults and to specifically romantic clouds. 85 00:06:19.759 --> 00:06:23.519 So I want to say something about attachment style. You mentioned it's a 86 00:06:23.560 --> 00:06:26.560 system from the cradle to the grave. So I want people who are listening 87 00:06:26.560 --> 00:06:30.600 to understand that Bobby did believe that whatever attachment style you had you developed early 88 00:06:30.600 --> 00:06:32.720 in life, it stayed that way for the rest of your life. But 89 00:06:32.879 --> 00:06:39.600 now I think, doctor Gilat, you know that attachment style can change across 90 00:06:39.600 --> 00:06:42.839 the lifespan, that it can be different in terms of how you relate to 91 00:06:42.920 --> 00:06:47.680 different people, That attachment injuries can be healed or worse, in my opinions, 92 00:06:47.720 --> 00:06:51.839 and now I'm showing my biases. That people can learn to be less 93 00:06:51.959 --> 00:06:56.480 intimate and not catch feelings. You know, it's something that can change, 94 00:06:56.600 --> 00:07:00.319 right right, So, and even Boby, you know left an opening for 95 00:07:00.399 --> 00:07:04.360 that. He was talking about, you know this dynamical system, and and 96 00:07:05.720 --> 00:07:09.639 today more than ever before, we're showing that that you know, so things 97 00:07:09.639 --> 00:07:15.399 like therapy, experimental work, and you know, new partners, you can 98 00:07:15.439 --> 00:07:19.040 definitely adopt new attachment attachments. So it can be, you know, a 99 00:07:19.120 --> 00:07:23.079 momentary, it can be something that you feel right here right now more or 100 00:07:23.160 --> 00:07:26.560 less secure, Or it can be with a specific relationship. So for example, 101 00:07:26.560 --> 00:07:29.439 your relationship with mom is going to be different than yourship who's your dad. 102 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:32.240 But it also can be the case that you know, maybe you got 103 00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:36.959 into a romantic relationship and your partner cheat on you, and and and we 104 00:07:38.040 --> 00:07:41.439 trade you and you you feel like, you know, you can't trust anyone 105 00:07:41.480 --> 00:07:45.439 anymore, and then brought you from a secure person to be an insecure person. 106 00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:50.399 And yeah, because of those experiences right right, I was reading lately, 107 00:07:50.920 --> 00:07:57.199 how now there's so much emphasis on teenage relationships that they can be so 108 00:07:57.279 --> 00:08:01.959 predetermining of what happens later in adult rooms. So those early first love relationships, 109 00:08:03.199 --> 00:08:05.639 yeah, they may be an echo of what happened with parents or caregivers 110 00:08:05.680 --> 00:08:09.399 early in life, but they really can dictate what's going to happen in your 111 00:08:09.399 --> 00:08:16.079 twenties, right. And also also you know the transition from having you know 112 00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:20.319 only mom or mom and dad as your attachment figures as we call these clothes 113 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:24.319 others two peers, you know, having friends, and whether or not you 114 00:08:26.160 --> 00:08:30.319 develop specific social skill is so important to think about. What's happening to us 115 00:08:30.399 --> 00:08:37.320 right now. Was COVID in everything right where all this generation basically was staying 116 00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:41.399 at home wearing a mask, not having these interactions. In fact, we 117 00:08:41.480 --> 00:08:45.799 have to go to a break, but I definitely want to focus on that 118 00:08:45.840 --> 00:08:48.919 when we come back. Like you, I also teach undergraduate students and I've 119 00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:52.159 noticed a big change in the last couple of years since we've been back in 120 00:08:52.159 --> 00:08:54.840 the classroom. Let's talk about it when we come back. You are listening 121 00:08:56.120 --> 00:09:01.639 to the Doctor Wendy Walls Show at KFI AM six forty guest doctor Omri Gillatt, 122 00:09:01.759 --> 00:09:07.240 Department of Psychology at the University of Kansas. You're listening to Doctor Wendy 123 00:09:07.279 --> 00:09:13.320 Walsh on demand from KFI AM six forty. Welcome back to the Doctor Wendy 124 00:09:13.320 --> 00:09:18.080 Walls Show on KFI AM six forty. We're live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, 125 00:09:18.559 --> 00:09:22.159 my guest doctor Omri Gillatt from the Department of Psychology at the University of 126 00:09:22.279 --> 00:09:28.360 Kansas, who has been studying attachment and close personal relationships for decades. Before 127 00:09:28.360 --> 00:09:33.679 the break, we were talking about what was lost during the pandemic with teenagers 128 00:09:33.799 --> 00:09:39.200 and young adults and doctor Gillett, I teach undergraduates, and I cannot believe 129 00:09:39.679 --> 00:09:45.200 the amount of social anxiety that I see out of these students that I did 130 00:09:45.279 --> 00:09:48.519 not see before the pandemic. Am I imagining things or did something go wrong 131 00:09:50.080 --> 00:09:54.840 unfortunately or not? And the numbers are there to support it. And we 132 00:09:54.960 --> 00:10:00.559 see high levels of mental health issues, so anxiety, depression and all that. 133 00:10:01.120 --> 00:10:05.759 And at the same time we see low numbers of relationships. So it's 134 00:10:05.799 --> 00:10:11.840 true for romantic relationships, for friendships, for sex and you know, so 135 00:10:11.879 --> 00:10:15.320 it's not that the people becoming asexual. You see, for example, there 136 00:10:15.360 --> 00:10:22.480 is an increasing in consumption of porn, but people are not interacting as they 137 00:10:22.679 --> 00:10:26.720 used to, face to face and creating relationships. And in fact, you 138 00:10:26.720 --> 00:10:31.240 can see some of these numbers are scaring. Are you're talking about especially young 139 00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:35.159 males between the ages of twenties and thirties, who you know about sixty percent 140 00:10:35.240 --> 00:10:39.600 or more of them are not in a relationship, which is a bigger problem 141 00:10:39.720 --> 00:10:43.879 than what we used. Yeah. Yeah, we need to keep guys like 142 00:10:43.080 --> 00:10:48.519 quiet and happy and relaxed. They need they be having a girlfriend and cuddling 143 00:10:48.639 --> 00:10:52.879 somewhere, not out buying guns. And you know, there is a very 144 00:10:52.919 --> 00:11:00.240 strong connection between between being secure and safe and and happiness and well being and 145 00:11:00.639 --> 00:11:03.080 so so you know, there are many studies, including men analysis, which 146 00:11:03.159 --> 00:11:07.279 is the combination of a bunch of different studies to one the big kind of 147 00:11:07.320 --> 00:11:13.559 analysis that show that if you don't have these social interactions, if you don't 148 00:11:13.559 --> 00:11:18.759 have these close relationships, your chances are being sick mentally and physically and of 149 00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:24.320 dying younger are much higher. So can you explain why I just want to 150 00:11:24.320 --> 00:11:28.120 interrupt and go back a little bit. Can you explain why teenagers and young 151 00:11:28.159 --> 00:11:33.759 adults more than any other group need that social interaction at particularly that vulnerable stage 152 00:11:33.799 --> 00:11:37.879 of life, because this is when they learn how to do this thing, 153 00:11:37.960 --> 00:11:43.840 This is when they establish these these styles, these relationships when they're supposed to 154 00:11:43.879 --> 00:11:50.399 do the transition from you know, growing up and having only their parents or 155 00:11:50.399 --> 00:11:54.200 maybe parents and sibling as their main a touchment figures to actually developing the social 156 00:11:54.200 --> 00:12:00.159 skills and the interactions and the relationships that would serve at to guidance throughout your 157 00:12:00.200 --> 00:12:03.720 lives. And if you miss that, if you if you think about it, 158 00:12:03.799 --> 00:12:05.399 just just the mesk for it for an example, Right, if you 159 00:12:05.559 --> 00:12:13.159 miss the critical period of learning how to read others, how to interact with 160 00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:16.639 others, how to understand others, that's going to infect you. Right, 161 00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:22.600 If you don't develop the social skills that allow you to, for example, 162 00:12:22.759 --> 00:12:28.639 compromise or or to get along, or to again have emotional intelligence, all 163 00:12:28.679 --> 00:12:31.200 of that is going to work against you, and you would be, as 164 00:12:31.240 --> 00:12:37.799 you suggest, anxious of any kind of social interaction and to you just avoid 165 00:12:37.840 --> 00:12:41.960 it. You know. I one thing since we got back into the classrooms 166 00:12:41.159 --> 00:12:46.240 are doing face to face teaching is I allow twenty to thirty minutes of every 167 00:12:46.320 --> 00:12:52.360 class where I force them into group discussions and I move around from group to 168 00:12:52.440 --> 00:12:56.639 group helping and talking and listening. And I'm shocked at how many are just 169 00:12:56.679 --> 00:13:03.159 staring at their phones in their group. They're not even talking. And I'm 170 00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:05.039 like, you guys have to talk to each other, okay, right, 171 00:13:05.159 --> 00:13:09.639 And it is there. And then if I ask them to speak up in 172 00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:13.120 the middle of class. I see the shaking. One student told me later 173 00:13:13.360 --> 00:13:18.720 that her heart rate monitor on her Apple Watch just exploded just because I called 174 00:13:18.080 --> 00:13:22.279 upon her. And you know, it's interesting what you're saying about the phones, 175 00:13:22.360 --> 00:13:28.960 because the phone's becoming this super important and almost partner. Right. So, 176 00:13:28.960 --> 00:13:33.200 so phones today, especially with AI, which is some of the research 177 00:13:33.279 --> 00:13:37.960 that we're doing in the lab, are are replacing and real human beings. 178 00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:46.240 So you can today download and artificial intelligent girlfriend or boyfriend and design them to 179 00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:48.440 be, you know, however you want them to be, to look however 180 00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:52.000 you want them to be, and then you just skip the whole messiness of 181 00:13:52.159 --> 00:13:56.399 real relationship. And what do you say to students, Because students do bring 182 00:13:56.399 --> 00:14:00.519 this up, they go, what's wrong with that? Well, the issue 183 00:14:00.559 --> 00:14:05.120 is that we were not evolved to have a computer chip or a cell phone 184 00:14:05.600 --> 00:14:09.559 as a partner. We need we need the face to face to touch, 185 00:14:09.919 --> 00:14:16.720 the closeness, the embrace, the authenticity of the of the relationship. So 186 00:14:18.159 --> 00:14:22.399 if you just build something that is almost too good to be true, it 187 00:14:22.480 --> 00:14:26.360 doesn't provide you with the same fulfillment of needs. An attachment, at the 188 00:14:26.440 --> 00:14:30.399 end of the day, is a need. We have an attachment need. 189 00:14:30.519 --> 00:14:33.879 We need to be long, we need to be with someone and the good 190 00:14:33.919 --> 00:14:39.679 and bad, and we're kind of building this by going through these hard experiences. 191 00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:43.519 And if we just going to play a computer game, that's not going 192 00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:48.399 to give us what we need. So what advice which I know you're not 193 00:14:48.440 --> 00:14:50.720 an advice giving world. You're in the research world and pulling data, but 194 00:14:52.440 --> 00:14:56.279 you're a parent. If their parents out there listening, who have a teenager 195 00:14:56.320 --> 00:15:00.799 young adult who's still in their room on their phone and not out with other 196 00:15:00.840 --> 00:15:05.559 teenagers or young adults, what advice could you give these families? So I 197 00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:09.360 think last week or I think this would maybe earlier this week. APA the 198 00:15:09.399 --> 00:15:13.200 American Psychological Association came up with some guidelines, so you know, you can 199 00:15:13.240 --> 00:15:20.600 find that online, but they specifically say limit the interactions who have their phone, 200 00:15:20.759 --> 00:15:24.679 limit time on computer, just just you know, say even if it's 201 00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:26.480 you can drop it for one hour a day, if you can, say 202 00:15:26.799 --> 00:15:31.759 one day out of the weekend, if you can get them to get off 203 00:15:31.360 --> 00:15:35.360 the computer and the screen and the phone and as you say, sit next 204 00:15:35.360 --> 00:15:39.159 to each other and be a role model. You know, during dinner, 205 00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:43.200 don't have your phone open. Just sit there and have a conversation, you 206 00:15:43.240 --> 00:15:46.679 know, bring friends home, have have events where you know, we have 207 00:15:46.759 --> 00:15:50.039 people around the table or in a picnique or what have you, and and 208 00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:54.519 create the right modeling for them that they would learn, because you know, 209 00:15:54.600 --> 00:15:58.000 we think that this is something either you have it or not. It's not 210 00:15:58.000 --> 00:16:02.240 true. You need to grow into it, need to see muzzles and sieguard 211 00:16:02.279 --> 00:16:04.480 away. To do it in an environment that he's noticed a stressful as you 212 00:16:04.519 --> 00:16:07.279 said, you know in class he can be very stressful. You have already 213 00:16:07.320 --> 00:16:11.559 the academic stress and a bunch of other things. Maybe at home you can 214 00:16:11.559 --> 00:16:14.519 do it in a less stressful way. And you know, doctor Gillett, 215 00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:18.360 as you said, put down the phone. I watched young person producer Kayla 216 00:16:18.679 --> 00:16:25.679 put down her phone. I get and we got one right now. You 217 00:16:25.720 --> 00:16:30.399 know, before we go, I want to say, there's a I don't 218 00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:33.519 want to call a game. A behavior that my nephew told me about that 219 00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:38.159 his college practiced in their cafeteria and they had round tables. So when you 220 00:16:38.200 --> 00:16:41.679 would sit down with your tray, you often had to sit with strangers and 221 00:16:41.799 --> 00:16:45.240 everybody was on their phone, usually because they didn't know the people and so 222 00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:49.960 they had a rule called respect the phone stack. So in the center of 223 00:16:49.960 --> 00:16:53.279 the round table, whoever would sit first would put their phone face down in 224 00:16:53.320 --> 00:16:56.759 the center of the table. The next person would sit put their phone and 225 00:16:56.759 --> 00:17:00.480 create a stack, and then they would have to talk to each other because 226 00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:03.119 there were no phones, and in order to go into the phone stack, 227 00:17:03.839 --> 00:17:08.000 you had to get the consent of everybody at the table. So let's say 228 00:17:08.039 --> 00:17:11.079 you were trying to think of the name of a movie you wanted to refer 229 00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:12.640 people to, or an actor, or maybe that's just me quoting myself, 230 00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:17.519 but anyway, trying to but you know you're trying to think of a fact, 231 00:17:17.880 --> 00:17:19.119 then you have to get the whole table to say, yes, we 232 00:17:19.160 --> 00:17:22.039 need to go to the internet for that. Nobody in this brain trust has 233 00:17:22.039 --> 00:17:26.240 it, We don't have it. Is that a great idea? It's a 234 00:17:26.279 --> 00:17:29.880 great idea. And and and the more you I mean, I don't want 235 00:17:29.880 --> 00:17:32.839 it to sound like, you know, this is something you know against scary 236 00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:36.920 or or or you know, stressful, because I can see how how young 237 00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:38.359 adults might say, Okay, I'm not going to go to the to the 238 00:17:38.599 --> 00:17:41.880 you know, to this place to get my food. I'm going to stay 239 00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:44.680 you know, in my apartment or buy a sandwich somewhere because so stssful. 240 00:17:44.680 --> 00:17:48.240 But no, I mean, if you can get into be a fun event 241 00:17:48.480 --> 00:17:52.039 where people actually get a chance to talk to each other, that's that's awesome. 242 00:17:52.119 --> 00:17:55.480 And you know, there's nothing wrong about going hiking in a group or 243 00:17:55.880 --> 00:17:57.519 or you know, biking or what have you. Right, it's just do 244 00:17:57.680 --> 00:18:03.400 things together with out relying on your streams all the time. We all need 245 00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:06.119 to do that, all right. When we come back, there's a new 246 00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:08.200 study I just read that you were one of the authors of called I'm going 247 00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:12.079 to give you some psychobabble to the world now, attachment security priming, affecting 248 00:18:12.079 --> 00:18:17.480 mating strategies, endorsement among college students. Okay, I'm going to translate that 249 00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:21.079 when we come back, because this is very interesting news. You're listening to 250 00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:23.920 the Doctor Wendy Walls Show on KFI AM six forty. We're live everywhere on 251 00:18:25.000 --> 00:18:30.000 the iHeartRadio app. You're listening to Doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from kf I 252 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:37.680 AM six forty. Welcome back to the Doctor Wendy Walls Show on kf I 253 00:18:37.799 --> 00:18:41.079 AM six forty. My guest doctor Almrie Gillett at the Department of Psychology the 254 00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:48.079 University of Canvas. Canvas it's like Kansas. You know why, because we 255 00:18:48.319 --> 00:18:52.880 use the program Canvas at my university. So whenever I think about a school, 256 00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:57.119 I'm thinking of Canvas, but Kansas it's ka n sas all right, 257 00:18:57.240 --> 00:19:02.759 So I want to go through this step by step and some things that came 258 00:19:02.799 --> 00:19:07.599 to mind in the abstract that I read of your study that was published in 259 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:14.160 Evolutionary Psychology, one of my favorite publications, and basically the title Attachment Security 260 00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:18.079 Priming Affecting Mating Strategies endorsement among college students. If I'm going to translate that 261 00:19:18.119 --> 00:19:23.960 into language everybody can understand it is, let's make the brain trick the brain 262 00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:30.079 before they meet somebody new, and they're going to make a different choice of 263 00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:33.039 whether to have a short term or long term relationship based on what the brain 264 00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:36.799 saw ahead of time. Does that make sense? I did get that kind 265 00:19:36.839 --> 00:19:41.319 of right, Yeah, And that's that's exactly right. And I mean tricks 266 00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:44.880 has you know, has a negative coquotation. It's actually it can be a 267 00:19:44.960 --> 00:19:48.240 very palative thing. Right. Well, you know, when I teach priming 268 00:19:48.359 --> 00:19:52.720 to my uh you know, psych one or one student my one hundred in 269 00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:59.400 the five or six slides before the slides get slowly and slowly and slowly more 270 00:19:59.519 --> 00:20:03.359 yellow. It's just a creeping thing, and they don't realize it. And 271 00:20:03.400 --> 00:20:04.920 then I try to teach them priming, and I say, well, here's 272 00:20:04.920 --> 00:20:10.640 an example of priming, name of fruit. And then the next slide is 273 00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:17.000 was it a lemon or a banana? And then I go back and show 274 00:20:17.039 --> 00:20:19.400 them all the slides and how their brain was primed by this colorization of the 275 00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:26.559 slides. So it is a trick. So yeah, and absolutely, and 276 00:20:26.039 --> 00:20:30.839 what we're doing in the lab is obviously, you know, artificially trying to 277 00:20:30.839 --> 00:20:33.599 put them in a specific mode. Right, It's something that in real life 278 00:20:33.680 --> 00:20:38.519 would be you know, maybe because of a relationship or something that reminds them 279 00:20:38.559 --> 00:20:41.759 something that happened to them. You know. It's it's very different than you 280 00:20:41.799 --> 00:20:45.599 know, showing them pictures or word that we do a lesionally in the lab. 281 00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:48.799 So before we get going on your study and your data, let's talk 282 00:20:48.839 --> 00:20:55.079 a little bit about the background. So it's already been proven that if you 283 00:20:55.160 --> 00:21:02.160 expose people to cues that make them feel unsafe like their future survivability is at 284 00:21:02.200 --> 00:21:06.680 stake, they're more likely to choose a short term mating partner than a long 285 00:21:06.799 --> 00:21:10.960 term mating partner. Why is this right? So think about that, right, 286 00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:15.240 if you're going to die soon, what what you know from evolutionary perspective? 287 00:21:15.319 --> 00:21:18.279 Right if if you if you are you know I do in a way 288 00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:23.000 that seeing you know, the skier's fing or something like that, and at 289 00:21:23.079 --> 00:21:26.119 least for half of us, it makes sense to try and have sex and 290 00:21:27.079 --> 00:21:32.000 pass forward your genes. Right, So for guy and they can just run 291 00:21:32.039 --> 00:21:37.559 around find you know, a willing mate, have sex and if she is 292 00:21:37.799 --> 00:21:41.480 you know, pregnant, then then they basically passing on your genetics. So 293 00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:48.119 again it's it's think about it from a revolutionary perspective. If our purpose here 294 00:21:48.759 --> 00:21:53.400 is to just pass our genetic material to the future, and when you know 295 00:21:53.480 --> 00:21:57.559 that, your opportunities are closing and you're going to do whatever you can to 296 00:21:57.559 --> 00:22:02.240 to try and increase your chances of doing it. So I wonder if there's 297 00:22:02.359 --> 00:22:06.880 data from the pandemic showing that like Tinder did better than match dot com or 298 00:22:06.920 --> 00:22:11.880 something. Yeah, that's that's interesting. I mean there is there are data, 299 00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:15.519 you know, when looking at different countries where countries that are more dangerous 300 00:22:15.640 --> 00:22:19.559 or neighborhoods that are more dangerous, and you see people starting to have sex 301 00:22:19.559 --> 00:22:26.000 when they're younger, having more sexual partners, are actually getting their period at 302 00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:29.599 an earlier age, right, So all these things are happening and our body 303 00:22:29.839 --> 00:22:33.160 is acting even if we're not aware of it, which kind of it's nicely 304 00:22:33.160 --> 00:22:38.880 with the idea of priming that that our body is getting ready to pass on 305 00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:44.839 the genetic materials. So again the idea is coming from life history theory, 306 00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:52.680 where you know, a safe and secure environment is basically getting people to think 307 00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:56.200 about the long term you have. You know, you have a certain amount 308 00:22:56.240 --> 00:23:02.039 of resources that you can use, you can invest them in and small amount 309 00:23:02.079 --> 00:23:07.000 of offspring and make it all much kind of like higher quality. On the 310 00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:11.359 other hand, it's growing up in a dangerous, unsafe environment where you know 311 00:23:11.400 --> 00:23:15.000 you're gonna you know, they are high chances of dying young and you're going 312 00:23:15.079 --> 00:23:18.680 to start early. You're going to try to get as many opportunities to you 313 00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:22.680 know, have sects and get pregnant and so on. So it's so fascinating 314 00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:29.279 because I actually I teach developmental psychology too, and precocious puberty and girls is 315 00:23:29.359 --> 00:23:33.799 highly correlated with family conflict, right, so you're in a dangerous homely exactly 316 00:23:34.839 --> 00:23:38.799 fascinating. Okay, now your study did the opposite. It said, what 317 00:23:38.920 --> 00:23:45.599 if we made people feel very secure and safe before they set out to date, 318 00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:52.440 mate, and relate, and would they choose better partners that would be 319 00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:56.119 fit for long term relationships? So the first thing I need to know is 320 00:23:56.319 --> 00:24:00.079 how did you make them feel safe? Well? How did you prime them? 321 00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:03.400 Right? So, so there are different ways to do it, and 322 00:24:03.799 --> 00:24:07.960 you know, specifically in these studies, what we're trying to do is to 323 00:24:07.039 --> 00:24:11.599 prime them in such a way that they wouldn't expose our goals or we didn't 324 00:24:11.599 --> 00:24:15.839 want them to kind of figure out or guess what we're trying to do here 325 00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:18.440 and and then just go along with that. So we wanted to make sure 326 00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:23.519 that this is notving. So we basically expose them to either images for example, 327 00:24:23.519 --> 00:24:26.160 of the mother holding a baby. That can be you know, one 328 00:24:26.200 --> 00:24:32.640 example, or you know, a couple hugging and or anything that would make 329 00:24:32.680 --> 00:24:37.960 them feel loved and and and and embraced and expect and accepted and so on. 330 00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:41.160 It could be also that the word just as I said, you know, 331 00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:44.240 the word love, the word hug, the word kiss, all of 332 00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:48.799 these things can basically make people, based on our previous research and feel more 333 00:24:49.319 --> 00:24:52.720 a safe and secure. Um, So that's that's the way to do it. 334 00:24:53.079 --> 00:24:56.400 And then what would you do? What would you do to see what 335 00:24:56.400 --> 00:25:00.839 about their mate selection? So now you got them feel insecure thinking about love 336 00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:06.039 and hug and safety and mother and baby and closeness and nurturing, and now 337 00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:10.960 what did you do with them? Right? So so then we kind of 338 00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:12.920 depend on the study. There were some studies that we basically asked them to 339 00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:19.319 choose between different scenarios or different options. You know, do you prefer to 340 00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:23.640 have sex without meaning, or do you is it okay to have sex without 341 00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:27.839 love and things like that which represent short term surgeries, or you know, 342 00:25:27.960 --> 00:25:32.160 sex gott to be was you know the right partner or you know, you 343 00:25:32.319 --> 00:25:36.279 gotta have some feelings for a partner before you're having sex with them, right, 344 00:25:36.319 --> 00:25:38.960 So that's one example. We use a self report measure, but we 345 00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:44.160 also use a different study where we can look at the behavior. So we 346 00:25:44.200 --> 00:25:48.960 had them in an interview with supposedly another participant, and at the end of 347 00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:52.000 the interview, the other participants said Hey, you know, I you know, 348 00:25:52.039 --> 00:25:56.480 I don't usually do it, and I know that's sounding awkward, but 349 00:25:56.519 --> 00:25:57.720 you know, I really like you. I think that we have senilar interests, 350 00:25:57.720 --> 00:26:00.839 and how about we go out and have, you know, a coffee 351 00:26:00.920 --> 00:26:04.640 or a drink or something. So basically offering them to go on a date. 352 00:26:06.119 --> 00:26:08.079 And what we wanted to know is whether or not you're going to go 353 00:26:08.240 --> 00:26:15.400 with this other attractive mate after our prime um. So basically we can what 354 00:26:15.480 --> 00:26:18.720 if they that other attractive mate they were thinking that that was going to be 355 00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:22.839 a long term partner, but I mean it could be and we don't know. 356 00:26:23.000 --> 00:26:26.960 But you know, there are two things. A if you are already 357 00:26:26.960 --> 00:26:30.279 in a relationship and this other person is offering you a date, that that's 358 00:26:30.359 --> 00:26:37.079 more like short Yeah there is that. Now if if you're not in a 359 00:26:37.160 --> 00:26:41.039 relationship, you know, we're assuming that if you say yes, that still 360 00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:45.400 suggests a short term even if later on, right, if we follow up 361 00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:48.720 and see if you're actually Obviously that was an imaginary person, so we couldn't 362 00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:52.599 test it, but you could potentially going to follow up and see if in 363 00:26:52.680 --> 00:26:56.319 the long term they change it from a short term to a long term. 364 00:26:56.480 --> 00:26:59.279 But for us It was more about, you know, okay, can they 365 00:26:59.519 --> 00:27:06.279 actually change or preferences based on these subtle queues in the environment, which is, 366 00:27:06.440 --> 00:27:07.680 so, do you have a control group of people that were not given 367 00:27:07.720 --> 00:27:11.680 the priming right. So we had a control group of people that were primed 368 00:27:11.960 --> 00:27:17.400 with other either neutral primes or insecure primes. So we tested these things as 369 00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:19.759 well. Okay, when we come back, I want to hear the results 370 00:27:21.160 --> 00:27:25.359 because I find this really fascinating and I'm going to talk to you about what 371 00:27:25.559 --> 00:27:30.400 single people can do if they're looking for a long term relationship right before a 372 00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:33.559 date, before they go out. You're listening to the Doctor Wendy Walls Show 373 00:27:33.559 --> 00:27:38.079 and KFI AM six forty. We're live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. You're 374 00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:45.200 listening to Doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from KFI AM six forty. Welcome back 375 00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:48.920 to the Doctor Wendy Walls Show on KFI AM six forty. We're live everywhere 376 00:27:48.920 --> 00:27:52.559 on the iHeartRadio App. I don't often keep a guest this long. It's 377 00:27:52.599 --> 00:27:56.119 just that I am thrilled and curious and amazed at this research. So thank 378 00:27:56.160 --> 00:28:00.240 you so much, Doctor Omriguillatt from the University of Kansas for spending so much 379 00:28:00.240 --> 00:28:06.240 time with us here on KFI. Okay, so your study where you took 380 00:28:06.279 --> 00:28:10.279 two groups of college students. One group you did not prime them in any 381 00:28:10.279 --> 00:28:14.279 way possible and you had somebody basically asked them out on a date. The 382 00:28:14.319 --> 00:28:18.359 other group, you primed them with feelings of warmth, mommy love, hug, 383 00:28:18.599 --> 00:28:26.400 kisses, baby, nurturing feelings that bring us attachment security. All right, 384 00:28:26.839 --> 00:28:30.039 what happened with the two groups, right, So the one that saw 385 00:28:30.200 --> 00:28:33.920 the things like hug and kiss and embrace, and again they didn't see it, 386 00:28:33.960 --> 00:28:38.920 they were exposed because it was a subliminal priming and they were much more 387 00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:48.319 likely to prefer long term mating strategies than short term. So sex without love 388 00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:51.880 was not okay for them, and you know, not finding the right partner 389 00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:55.319 was okay for them, And you learned this by the survey you gave them 390 00:28:55.319 --> 00:28:59.000 afterwards, right right after we did the survey, and also from their behavior 391 00:28:59.039 --> 00:29:02.480 when they said no to the other person who offered them to go on a 392 00:29:02.559 --> 00:29:07.000 date. And the control group, whether it was neutral priming or as you 393 00:29:07.079 --> 00:29:14.240 said, no prime or even insecure prime, usually led people to the opposite 394 00:29:14.319 --> 00:29:18.440 to short term and especially you know, when insecure primes, you can do 395 00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:22.200 it either avoidant or anxious, and avoiding people are the ones who are usually 396 00:29:22.200 --> 00:29:27.240 looking into these kind of like short term mating sieges, playing hard to get, 397 00:29:27.359 --> 00:29:32.279 which is another paper that we have, and they're kind of like more 398 00:29:32.319 --> 00:29:36.000 into you know, playing games than actually having a committed relationship. And this 399 00:29:36.079 --> 00:29:37.680 will be so with the priming. Yeah, I find that people with an 400 00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:42.519 avoidant detachment style, not that I've dated many, oh thousands, they basically 401 00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:49.279 love to find unique ways to obtain sex but not give up any emotional intimacy. 402 00:29:49.400 --> 00:29:52.640 Yea, right, And all these things that you hear about ghosting and 403 00:29:52.759 --> 00:29:57.559 submarining and all that, these are avoiding people who basically developed like new methods 404 00:29:57.599 --> 00:30:00.599 or new names of it's going to do the same thing that they like. 405 00:30:00.759 --> 00:30:06.000 You people have to understand in any given mating market place, they're always going 406 00:30:06.039 --> 00:30:08.880 to be people. Everybody knows how to obtain sex in some way because we're 407 00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:14.839 put on the planet to reproduce. But how they can extract sex without having 408 00:30:14.920 --> 00:30:19.200 to make emotional commitment or reveal emotional to themselves is the purview of the avoidant 409 00:30:19.240 --> 00:30:25.119 group. Now, the anxious people scare people away with their anxiety. I 410 00:30:25.119 --> 00:30:26.640 think if I had to self diagnose back when I was single, I'm in 411 00:30:26.680 --> 00:30:30.440 a very secure relationship. By the way, doctor Amri, you would be 412 00:30:30.519 --> 00:30:34.400 very proud of me. Took eighteen years of therapy and to attachment parenting kids 413 00:30:34.400 --> 00:30:37.759 to raise. So I go, oh, this is what a secure attachment 414 00:30:37.839 --> 00:30:44.480 feels like. But I think I was more anxious ambivalent. So in other 415 00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:47.799 words, I was the come closer, go away girl. Is I always 416 00:30:47.880 --> 00:30:52.240 was attracted to avoidant man guaranteed, guaranteed, they ghosted, they dismissed, 417 00:30:52.240 --> 00:30:55.039 they walked away. I mean I was like a detective trying to figure out 418 00:30:55.039 --> 00:30:56.920 who they were with, where they were going all the time. Right. 419 00:30:56.319 --> 00:31:00.000 But if I met a guy who had a secure attach and style, who 420 00:31:00.119 --> 00:31:04.759 was very open and close and whatever, I would say, oh, he's 421 00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:11.359 too nice, and so it really took them getting used to And I got 422 00:31:11.400 --> 00:31:15.799 this amazing boyfriend who's such a caregiver, and people are like, but don't 423 00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:18.160 you think you now deserve it to be cared for? And I'm like, 424 00:31:18.200 --> 00:31:25.119 oh, this is so great, it's so really great. So let's talk 425 00:31:25.119 --> 00:31:29.799 about people at what your research means to people who might be looking for a 426 00:31:29.839 --> 00:31:33.279 long term relationship and getting ready to go out on a date or go to 427 00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:36.720 an event where they might meet people. Is there anything we could do to 428 00:31:36.799 --> 00:31:41.519 kind of self prime ourselves. Absolutely, And I mean the first thing to 429 00:31:41.599 --> 00:31:45.599 do is to actually figure out what do you want and what's going to make 430 00:31:45.640 --> 00:31:51.079 you feel better? Right, So, not in every situation and in every 431 00:31:51.079 --> 00:31:56.480 relationship you know, meant to be a long term, but if you're ready 432 00:31:56.480 --> 00:32:00.680 for commitment, if you're ready to you know, get into a relationship that 433 00:32:00.720 --> 00:32:05.039 would be you know a bit of a long term rather than the short term, 434 00:32:05.440 --> 00:32:09.240 and then you need to kind of lower your anxieties, be more vulnerable 435 00:32:09.279 --> 00:32:13.599 a little bit, so you know, self priming with security is going to 436 00:32:13.640 --> 00:32:15.480 be good, and also priming your partner with some sort of security. So 437 00:32:15.799 --> 00:32:19.519 it kind of like, you know, a think about where you're finding your 438 00:32:19.559 --> 00:32:22.720 partners, right, So, as you said, finding them on Tinder might 439 00:32:22.839 --> 00:32:27.640 be to begin with a prime towards the short term, right, because this 440 00:32:27.799 --> 00:32:30.960 is kind of the reputation that we get from Tinder. So maybe maybe find 441 00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:36.200 them in different places, you know, Facebook or or or you know U 442 00:32:37.519 --> 00:32:40.480 E enharment and stuff like that, or real life groups. What about going 443 00:32:40.599 --> 00:32:45.160 out to meet ups and actually see hiking groups groups of people. Absolutely that 444 00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:49.359 would be even better. And the other thing is is to kind of like 445 00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:52.079 think about how you build it and what you're doing. So if you're into 446 00:32:52.599 --> 00:32:59.480 if you're starting by by kind of playing them and and trying to have you 447 00:32:59.519 --> 00:33:00.960 know, on over them and stuff like that, that's not going to be 448 00:33:01.039 --> 00:33:07.680 a good way to build a trusting relationship. Um or if you if you're 449 00:33:07.680 --> 00:33:10.200 putting it in in such a again an environment where it's you know, you 450 00:33:10.240 --> 00:33:15.440 feel the threat and the danger and you know, that can end up again 451 00:33:15.559 --> 00:33:22.359 not not bringing the right of the strategies that you would expect from a long 452 00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:25.279 term relationship. So the people us want to fall in love with you just 453 00:33:25.279 --> 00:33:29.240 take into a bull fight, right so that they would be all kind of 454 00:33:29.279 --> 00:33:34.240 like flustered and excited, and they would misattribute this into you know, falling 455 00:33:34.279 --> 00:33:37.279 in love. Oh, speaking of misattribution, I'm sure you've read this famous 456 00:33:37.279 --> 00:33:39.759 study. I think it was done in Vancouver on that famous suspension bridge that's 457 00:33:39.799 --> 00:33:46.400 so high and so terrifying. They had a young woman confederate of the of 458 00:33:46.000 --> 00:33:51.480 the of the research study, walk across the bridge and to a strange man 459 00:33:51.599 --> 00:33:53.559 she would just start a conversation and at the end the researcher would say to 460 00:33:53.559 --> 00:33:55.839 the man, oh, by the way, that woman that walked across the 461 00:33:55.839 --> 00:33:59.519 bridge with you, did you find you know, attractive with They all had 462 00:33:59.519 --> 00:34:02.119 these feelings of love because it was co morbid with fear. They were all 463 00:34:02.119 --> 00:34:05.799 mixed up with the fear in their stomach and said. And there's also been 464 00:34:05.839 --> 00:34:07.800 stories of people like, oh, we were on this plane and there was 465 00:34:07.800 --> 00:34:12.000 all this turbulence and I was walking down the island. I fell right into 466 00:34:12.039 --> 00:34:15.840 his lap in the turbulence and we ended up getting married. Right, So 467 00:34:15.920 --> 00:34:20.079 I mean, yeah, the stories are great, and the science is there. 468 00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:22.519 The question is just where does it lead right and right? And if 469 00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:28.280 if, if it started with this excitement, and would it survive when there's 470 00:34:28.360 --> 00:34:32.519 no excitement exactly? How would you look? Yeah? My first book that 471 00:34:32.559 --> 00:34:37.559 I wrote before I had any education in this area was called The Boyfriend Test. 472 00:34:37.639 --> 00:34:39.920 How do we evaluate his potential before you lose your heart? And one 473 00:34:39.920 --> 00:34:45.480 of the questions in the boyfriend Test was is he coming off a big win? 474 00:34:45.920 --> 00:34:50.000 Has he just won like a Heisman or a Super Bowl ring or an 475 00:34:50.039 --> 00:34:52.079 award at work? This is not the time to meet him. Okay, 476 00:34:52.199 --> 00:34:59.519 he's not ready to settle down. So absolutely, there's something about this this 477 00:34:59.719 --> 00:35:05.480 like made value worthy feel invincible and they would just go and conquer more and 478 00:35:05.559 --> 00:35:07.920 more and more, as you said, and it would be the best. 479 00:35:07.960 --> 00:35:09.800 I'm too settled down. No, you want to meet them on a low, 480 00:35:13.320 --> 00:35:15.599 So who you want to be there? High? You want to be 481 00:35:15.639 --> 00:35:21.679 there high? Exactly why they're there? So let's let's talk as we close. 482 00:35:22.639 --> 00:35:28.199 In summary, I want to tell people that love is real, love 483 00:35:28.280 --> 00:35:31.159 is out there, we are wired to connect, and that at any given 484 00:35:31.239 --> 00:35:37.320 time of your life you can make love happen. And sometimes it's about doing 485 00:35:37.320 --> 00:35:40.920 the internal work of learning to make different choices. And for me, that's 486 00:35:40.960 --> 00:35:45.440 what happened is that I was choosing these quote unquote bad boys for so many 487 00:35:45.519 --> 00:35:50.159 years because I like the high of it, I like the anxiety of it. 488 00:35:50.440 --> 00:35:53.440 And once I got tired of that anxiety and wanted the feelings of safety 489 00:35:53.440 --> 00:35:58.599 and security, everything changed for me. I met so many just kind, 490 00:35:58.760 --> 00:36:02.239 giving people, and I think that's the big message about attachment overall, is 491 00:36:02.280 --> 00:36:07.320 that we do have some control, but we have to become aware of our 492 00:36:07.360 --> 00:36:12.199 patterns. Would you agree absolutely that is the way to do it well. 493 00:36:12.239 --> 00:36:15.760 I It is always a pleasure to have you on the show. If people 494 00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:19.679 can you have a website, don't you? Doctor Omri Gillett I do Omri 495 00:36:19.880 --> 00:36:22.920 spelt O m r I and his last name like the beautiful resort town in 496 00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:28.559 Israel Elat, It's Gillett g I L L A T. H At the 497 00:36:28.599 --> 00:36:32.000 Department of Psychology, University of Kansas. Keep sending your research my way. 498 00:36:32.079 --> 00:36:36.760 It's always a pleasure to read. Thanks for being with us, absolutely, 499 00:36:36.760 --> 00:36:38.400 thank you very much, and we'll be back after this. You're listening to 500 00:36:38.440 --> 00:36:43.360 the Doctor Wendy Walls Show on kf I AM six forty're live everywhere on the 501 00:36:43.360 --> 00:36:47.719 iHeartRadio app. You've been listening to Doctor Wendy Walsh. You can always hear 502 00:36:47.800 --> 00:36:52.480 us live on kf I AM six forty from seven to nine pm on Sunday 503 00:36:52.679 --> 00:36:54.719 and anytime on demand on the iHeartRadio app.