1 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:21,120 We're back with another edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Kashinski, 2 00:00:21,199 --> 00:00:24,160 culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show 3 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:28,039 at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on Twitter at fdr LST. 4 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:32,280 Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts into the premium version of 5 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:36,960 our website as well. Today we are joined by author Alexandra Hudson. She 6 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:41,079 is out with a new book called The Soul of Civility, Timeless Principles to 7 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:46,240 heal society and ourselves. She's also going to be hosting a Civility Summit on 8 00:00:46,439 --> 00:00:51,479 October ninth with some really interesting people, and some really interesting people have blurbed 9 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:54,920 this book. Alexandra. You have Fukiyama, you have Jonathan Haide, you 10 00:00:55,119 --> 00:01:00,799 have Tyler Cowen, just so many positive reactions to the book so far. 11 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:03,959 So first of all, congratulations and welcome to the show. Thanks Emily. 12 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,560 Great to be with you here, and yes, please do consider joining the 13 00:01:07,599 --> 00:01:14,079 Civilities on the ninth. Just google civility overrated or Underrated and that should come 14 00:01:14,159 --> 00:01:18,400 up on event right to join the dialogue with some of the most thoughtful people 15 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:22,799 of our day. Wonderful and you know, we were talking before we got 16 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:26,760 ready to start recording here, and I have to say, because you mentioned 17 00:01:26,799 --> 00:01:30,719 Brie, I'm just going to mention that, Alexander, you knew the great 18 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:36,120 Brie Peyton, who we miss every day. You guys met through Claremont, 19 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:38,560 right we did. Yeah, Bri and I were Claremont fellows together. We're 20 00:01:38,599 --> 00:01:42,400 Publius fellows. And this won't surprise you, Emily, but it was a 21 00:01:42,439 --> 00:01:46,159 little bit male heavy. We were like, you know, one of the 22 00:01:46,439 --> 00:01:49,879 one of like three women, this Clarmont Milicius sa Us girl kind of bonded 23 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:53,480 together. Over that two week wonderful, wonderful Fellow show. We had so 24 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:57,560 much fun, you know, reading Lincoln and Lincoln speeches and Douglas's speeches and 25 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:04,920 pouring over founding documents of our of our country and just like foundational political text, 26 00:02:05,079 --> 00:02:07,719 political theoretical text that I actually growing up in Canada, I had never 27 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:13,199 had the opportunity to study closely before, and so real privilege to be there. 28 00:02:13,199 --> 00:02:15,680 And you know, I got to learn with and alongside Breed and from 29 00:02:15,719 --> 00:02:20,199 her. She's so smart, she was so smart and just so thoughtful. 30 00:02:20,319 --> 00:02:23,120 So yeah, I missed for a lot. Yeah, Well, we always 31 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:25,479 I can never turned down an opportunity to mention Brie and give a shout out 32 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:30,360 to the whole Peyton family. If folks have joined us sometime in the last 33 00:02:30,439 --> 00:02:32,960 four or five years, they may not have heard of Brie, but you 34 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:37,400 should google b Repayton if you Payton. We miss her every day at the 35 00:02:37,439 --> 00:02:39,719 Federalists, and people around the world, around the country miss Prey every day. 36 00:02:39,759 --> 00:02:44,520 So Alexandra, thank you so much for giving this the opportunity just to 37 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:47,080 talk a little bit about our friend Measure. All right. So the book 38 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:51,400 again is called The Soul of Civility, and I want to just start by 39 00:02:51,439 --> 00:02:55,520 asking, you know, Alexandra, to actually define civility because I sense, 40 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:59,159 and we can get into this a little bit that some of the problem has 41 00:02:59,199 --> 00:03:05,360 to be surrounding how we have different definitions now in ways we may be happened 42 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,960 in the past of what is considered civil. Thank you for that question. 43 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:13,759 It's the perfect question. It's the question of my book because everyone thinks that 44 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:19,199 they understand what civility is, and in reality virtually no one does. Heads 45 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:23,319 the need for my book. So anyway, I argue there's this essential distinction 46 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:29,000 between civility and politeness. So they're very, very different things. So part 47 00:03:29,039 --> 00:03:31,639 of my story is that I love ideas, I love learning, I love 48 00:03:31,759 --> 00:03:37,520 education. And it was the big break of my career to be offered a 49 00:03:37,599 --> 00:03:42,280 job at the United States Department of Education. And I went in there, 50 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:44,680 bright eyed, bushy tailed, twenty four years old, right at a grad 51 00:03:44,759 --> 00:03:49,319 school, newly married, very naive and ready to like change the world for 52 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:53,560 the better, even just marginally. And I could not have been more disillusioned 53 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:58,639 or discouraged by my season in government. This is twenty seventeen to twenty eighteen, 54 00:03:59,479 --> 00:04:02,599 and I was just so surprised. I had never been so essentialized and 55 00:04:02,639 --> 00:04:06,840 reduced by one aspect of who I was. I just experienced this kind of 56 00:04:06,919 --> 00:04:11,280 vitriol. I was there because Secretary de Oce was my boss. She was 57 00:04:11,319 --> 00:04:15,240 the secretary, and I was, you know, one of her staffers, 58 00:04:15,719 --> 00:04:18,399 and people were afraid, you know, and people do vicious things when they're 59 00:04:18,399 --> 00:04:21,439 afraid, and they were afraid that she was going to you know, they 60 00:04:21,439 --> 00:04:25,120 didn't know what she was going to do. And we fear the unknown as 61 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:27,800 well, and so I kind of got the brunt of that in the day 62 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:30,720 to day with you know, many of the people that I worked alongside in 63 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,879 government, and people shouted at me, yelled at me out of meetings down 64 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:40,000 hallways, and I worked so hard to kind of just show them that I 65 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:42,959 loved education and I was a decent human being, and I wasn't. I 66 00:04:42,959 --> 00:04:47,720 didn't want to destroy the lives of America's students. I brought in Christmas cards 67 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:53,040 and Easter cards for my career staff. I was the only political appointee for 68 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:58,399 several months in this office that administered thirteen billion dollars annually, and I had 69 00:04:58,439 --> 00:05:01,040 three hundred career staff, many whom just despised me. They didn't even know 70 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:04,639 me, they despised me, and so I tried to kind of just chip 71 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:10,000 away that prejudice, just with basic decency and kindness. So I took them 72 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:13,519 for coffee outside of the office, took them for lunch, I invited them 73 00:05:13,519 --> 00:05:17,800 into my home. I brought in cupcakes when my career civil servant's birthday, 74 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:20,759 because I'm like, you know, who can hate someone bearing cupcakes? Right? 75 00:05:21,319 --> 00:05:25,360 And mixed success, squarely mixed success, But you know, it was 76 00:05:25,439 --> 00:05:29,120 just very discouraging, very delision. I also saw and this was a long 77 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:30,959 not just you know, career staff. This is among everyone I worked with 78 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:35,560 the government, my own political team light included. I mean, there were 79 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:41,519 people with sharp elbows. There were people who were willing to step on anyone 80 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:44,560 to get ahead, Like you just knew they were hostile. I knew to 81 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:46,759 avoid them, not my cup of tea. On the other hand, there 82 00:05:46,759 --> 00:05:53,360 were people who were polished and suave and polite, and at first I was 83 00:05:53,399 --> 00:05:55,480 like, Okay, these are my people. I can do business with these 84 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,720 people. And I realized, though, that these were people who would smile 85 00:05:59,079 --> 00:06:02,360 at me and and flatteress one moment and then stab us in the back the 86 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:06,519 next, the moment that we no longer serve their purposes. And that really 87 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:10,319 threw me for a lot because my mother had said to me growing up that 88 00:06:11,319 --> 00:06:14,519 my mom is kind of a manner as an etiquette expert, but she has 89 00:06:14,519 --> 00:06:17,959 said to me that manners mattered because they were an outward extension of our inward 90 00:06:18,079 --> 00:06:21,839 character. And yet I was surrounded by people who were well mannered and yet 91 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:27,439 ruthless and cruel. So that really puzzled me. And at first I thought 92 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:30,319 these modes were two polar opposites, but I realized, actually they're quite similar. 93 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:34,639 They're actually two sides of the same coin. Both extreme hostility and extreme 94 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:42,360 politeness both instrumentalize others. They see others as means to their selfish ends, 95 00:06:42,399 --> 00:06:46,600 as opposed to seeing others as our fellow human beings with dignity and equal moral 96 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:50,759 worth, who are worthy in respect in and of themselves. And that clarified 97 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:57,639 for me, this experience in government, this essential distinction between civility and politeness. 98 00:06:57,639 --> 00:07:00,879 That civility is just manners alone. It's the super official stuff. It's 99 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:06,800 etiquette, it's behavior, it's technique. Civility is internal. It's a disposition 100 00:07:06,959 --> 00:07:12,839 of the heart that sees others as our moral equals and sees them as being 101 00:07:12,839 --> 00:07:15,319 worthy of respect. In light of that, just because we're people, we're 102 00:07:15,319 --> 00:07:19,959 all entitled, entitled, and oh others a bare minimum of respect by virtue 103 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:26,040 of being or shared moral status as members of the human community. Crucially, 104 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:31,800 emily, sometimes actually respecting someone, actually being civil, requires being impolite, 105 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:36,519 It requires breaking the rules of etiquette in order to tell hard truths, engage 106 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:41,639 and robust debate like that's the stuff of actually respecting someone, instead of tone 107 00:07:41,639 --> 00:07:46,519 policing, silencing a disagreement or diminishing polishing over a difference, which is the 108 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,519 realm of politeness. So you know, and there are these two contingents today. 109 00:07:49,519 --> 00:07:53,560 On one hand, there are people who say they harken back to this 110 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:56,560 golden era of gentility and show where they say, we just we need more 111 00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:00,720 civility and politeness and they wish they look at the back of the golden era. 112 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:03,000 And I think that more civility and plantness is going to heal our divides. 113 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:07,959 Now, another contingent says, no, civility and politeness is part of 114 00:08:07,959 --> 00:08:13,160 the problem. They it's the tool of the patriarchy, white supremacists. It's 115 00:08:13,199 --> 00:08:18,160 the weapons of people in positions of power to keep the powerless powerless and out 116 00:08:18,199 --> 00:08:24,279 of society. And I say, both misunderstand what civility is. They conflate 117 00:08:24,319 --> 00:08:28,759 these two ideas. They make the same mistake of interchanging politeness and civility when 118 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:33,639 actually they're different things. Politeness, again manner is civility a disposition of seeing 119 00:08:33,639 --> 00:08:39,240 our others as equal moral worth, and that sometimes requires being impolite, telling 120 00:08:39,279 --> 00:08:43,440 hard truth, engaging and robust debates. So everyone thinks they know civility, 121 00:08:43,759 --> 00:08:48,879 No one actually does until you read my book Emily Well, so you draw 122 00:08:48,919 --> 00:08:52,600 a line between politeness and civility basically, is that? Is that correct way? 123 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:56,559 Because I'm thinking back to like the ty Party years. Yes, and 124 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:03,519 there were parents not dissimilar from or I should say there were people not dissimilar 125 00:09:03,519 --> 00:09:07,559 from parents descending on school board meetings across the country now furious and rightfully so, 126 00:09:09,159 --> 00:09:13,600 with righteous indignation against their school boards, teachers, et cetera. The 127 00:09:13,639 --> 00:09:16,279 Tea Party years, people were showing up at town halls. The media was 128 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:18,919 saying, you know, we just need to get back to civility. But 129 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,000 if you had talked to the people showing up at town halls, yeah, 130 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:26,279 that's the same thing. They would have said, yes, late civility, 131 00:09:26,919 --> 00:09:28,639 but they would have been, you know, breaking the media's and the elite 132 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:33,240 sort of definition of what is civility. So it's that question of what is 133 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:37,000 politeness and what is civility? Is that right? Totally? And let's go 134 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:39,759 back to even the original Tea Party Emily, which is where I thought you 135 00:09:39,799 --> 00:09:41,200 were going, Like, that's why I thought we were talking about itaphors, 136 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:46,879 which is of course an act of civil disobedience, right, Like that is 137 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:52,679 Americans during the revolutionary work. I guess pre revolution, saying we are rebelling 138 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:56,879 against these unjust laws of the day to make a social statement, and as 139 00:09:56,879 --> 00:10:01,360 a social statement was expressing at a firm our ideals of equal treatment under the 140 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:07,080 law and foundational equality. And so in my conception of civility, I reclaim 141 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:13,039 the whole tradition of civil disobedience, civil protests. So I'll just tell you 142 00:10:13,039 --> 00:10:18,519 that a kind of pneumonic trick to clarify this distinction. I love etymology. 143 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:20,679 I love the origin of words. That's all throughout my book because it's often 144 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:24,000 so clarifying and it gives us a little bit of a story to hang ideas 145 00:10:24,039 --> 00:10:28,159 on. So politeness, So the etymology these two words supports this distinction. 146 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:33,639 So the etymology of politeness is the Latin poly year, which means too smooth 147 00:10:33,799 --> 00:10:37,279 or polish. And that's what politeness does. It's external, and it's superficial, 148 00:10:37,279 --> 00:10:41,240 and it papers over difference as opposed to giving us the tools to grapple 149 00:10:41,279 --> 00:10:46,960 with difference head on. The Latin root of civility is kivetas, and that's 150 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:52,720 the root word for citizen city and citizenship, and that's what civility is. 151 00:10:52,759 --> 00:10:58,039 It's the habits and sometimes the duties of citizenship to tell hard truths, to 152 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:03,000 take action even in the of like including civil disobedience, which is an expression 153 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:07,559 of respect for our country, to say, look like, you know, 154 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:11,600 we're taking a stand in the name of higher ideal such as equality under the 155 00:11:11,639 --> 00:11:15,279 law, which is exactly what you know what doctor King was doing with it 156 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:18,759 with his peaceful, non violent resistance. And really and similarly what the Tea 157 00:11:18,799 --> 00:11:22,440 Party did, you had taking a stand and taking action in the name of 158 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:24,559 higher equality, define the authority of the day, the name of a higher, 159 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:31,919 higher ideal. So I think we all know. It feels like we 160 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:37,360 are teetering on the brink of an economic crisis that could threaten to wash away 161 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:41,919 your savings and your retirement that you've worked so hard to save up over years. 162 00:11:41,159 --> 00:11:46,320 Inflation has searched to levels unseen in forty years. Prices are spiraling out 163 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:50,279 of control, Our money buys less and less, and Americans are incurring more 164 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:54,279 debt just to stay afloat. You budget your expenses carefully, but each trip 165 00:11:54,279 --> 00:11:58,519 to the grocery store feels like a wallet pinching experience. 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So interesting, 187 00:13:35,039 --> 00:13:41,279 and I'm thinking now about how you grew up with a mother who is 188 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:46,559 an expert in manners, and I have to ask how that you think shaped 189 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:50,960 influenced the way you approach this question of civility, because it seems to me 190 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:56,679 that manners are sort of the if you want to talk about politeness, but 191 00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:01,480 a politeness that's kind of rooted in something deeper that maybe that's something deeper that 192 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:07,080 soil would be civility. You have the sort of Western idea of moral equality 193 00:14:07,799 --> 00:14:11,840 just by virtue of being a human being, and we decide then that manifests 194 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:16,840 itself in particular ways. I don't want to put words in your mouth. 195 00:14:16,879 --> 00:14:20,360 I'm just guessing tell us you know from your perspective, how all of that 196 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:24,000 must have shaped the way you saw this topic. So, my mother is 197 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:30,600 an extraordinary human being. She's someone who is passionate about what the self help 198 00:14:30,639 --> 00:14:33,519 writer Dale Carnegie he called it the fine art of getting along, like she's 199 00:14:33,559 --> 00:14:39,240 passionate about the human social project. She loves bringing people together. There's something 200 00:14:39,279 --> 00:14:41,279 she loves more than just being with others. She's very much a vehement like 201 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:46,840 social butterfly, so she cares about the rules of etiquette and propriety to the 202 00:14:46,879 --> 00:14:54,679 extent that they facilitate human social life and friendship and community. She's also unbelievably 203 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:58,679 hospitable and kind and gracious, so she both cares about the form of the 204 00:14:58,759 --> 00:15:03,600 rules but also the substance of true civility. She's my whole life, my 205 00:15:03,639 --> 00:15:07,600 whole childhood. Growing up, my home was a revolving door for exchange students, 206 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:13,159 international students, immigrants, like newcomers to our community. She was passionate 207 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:18,320 about making the outsider an insider and the stranger of friends. She literally has 208 00:15:18,399 --> 00:15:22,000 never met a human being that she didn't want to be best friends with. 209 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:26,159 It's incredible, Like it exhausts me just thinking about that sort of like extra 210 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:28,320 version. And my grandmother, if you can believe it, her mother was 211 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:33,840 like an order of magnitude more intense about human social interactions, my late grandmother 212 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:37,360 who passed away, yeah, three three and a half years ago, right 213 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:39,799 before my son was born. And I do talk about both her and my 214 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:46,240 grandmother in my book. So what was that? Like? I always questioned 215 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:50,200 social norms. This might not surprise you, and maybe you can empathize emily. 216 00:15:50,519 --> 00:15:54,879 I am constitutionally allergic to authority. I hate rules, I hate being 217 00:15:54,879 --> 00:15:56,799 told what to do. I like if someone tells me, I want a 218 00:15:56,919 --> 00:16:02,320 very good explanation for what. And so my mother would tell me to do 219 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:04,759 these things, and I always questioned them, like wh why do we set 220 00:16:04,759 --> 00:16:07,399 the table just this way? Why do we use works at all and not 221 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:11,519 just our hands or chopsticks? You know, Like I just always had these 222 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:15,759 questions in the back of my head that my mother never had thoughtful answers for, 223 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:18,080 like I empathize now as a mom my son asks why to everything. 224 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:21,679 I'm like, don't ask, just do it, you know, like I 225 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:25,960 get it. I get it. So these questions pervaded my childhood and always 226 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:29,679 kind of lingered with me, and I always hungered for the why of what 227 00:16:29,759 --> 00:16:33,960 we do and why we do them in the origin of them, And in 228 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:37,759 the course of writing this book, you kind of got to this in your 229 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:41,720 question talking about like the Western context. But I was curious about that, 230 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:47,519 like is there something timeless about civility and are there an are or is there 231 00:16:47,559 --> 00:16:51,799 something universal about it? And what I discovered is that well, I mean, 232 00:16:51,799 --> 00:16:55,240 there's a reason I wrote this book now. I believe that divisions in 233 00:16:55,279 --> 00:16:57,840 our country are dangerous and perilous. It's not just a crisis for our democratic 234 00:16:57,879 --> 00:17:03,319 institutions because our politicians can't work together and and and and do things together, 235 00:17:03,359 --> 00:17:07,920 but it's also a crisis for us as citizens. We have the loneliness crisis, 236 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:11,480 the the opioid epidemic, we have deaths of despair, We have so 237 00:17:11,559 --> 00:17:15,400 many social and cultural challenges that are reflective from the you know, the macro 238 00:17:15,519 --> 00:17:21,079 to the micro of this kind of crisis of alienation, and we long for 239 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:25,359 community. So there's a reason I wrote this book now. But this question 240 00:17:25,599 --> 00:17:30,880 is also timeless, this question of how do we flourish together even even when 241 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,920 we differ and disagree. This is kind of this is the defining question of 242 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:40,640 democracy, of the of the classical liberal project. How do we respect freedom 243 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,960 and flourish at the same time. And this is the question of our species 244 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:48,599 in fact as well, because as human beings, we've as long as we've 245 00:17:48,599 --> 00:17:52,480 been around, we have wanted to come together in groups. We are deeply 246 00:17:52,559 --> 00:17:57,119 social, we become fully human, we thrive in relationship and community, and 247 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:03,079 yet morally and biology, we are driven to meet our own needs before others. 248 00:18:04,839 --> 00:18:08,839 We're fallen as a species. Those two aspects are intention. The social 249 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:14,759 and the selfish are intention And that is why friendship, community, democracy, 250 00:18:14,839 --> 00:18:18,720 civilization itself has will always be fragile, and it always has been. It 251 00:18:18,759 --> 00:18:25,319 is never a foregone conclusion. And I realized as I surveyed other cultures etiquette 252 00:18:25,319 --> 00:18:30,519 handbooks and civility manuals across time and across history, and I had this amazing 253 00:18:30,519 --> 00:18:33,880 realization that while the rules of etiquette and propriety change, those are subject to 254 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:40,440 taste and subject to fashion, and they often are, you know, things 255 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:45,279 that people in positions of power or the wealthy and society they set these rules 256 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:49,799 of etiquette and propriete and fashion to distinguish themselves from Alzheider's you know, within 257 00:18:49,839 --> 00:18:56,799 their own society. But the rules of civility, of sacrificing the self, 258 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,279 the ego for the sake of the social project and for human floor wishing, 259 00:19:00,799 --> 00:19:04,000 those are remarkably timeless all the way back. Did you know that the oldest 260 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,640 book in the world is a civility book. It's given to us from ancient 261 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:12,119 Egypt twenty seven hundred BC, so five thousand years ago. And you read 262 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:15,599 this book, Emily, it's called the Maxims or the Teachings of Patahoe Tep 263 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,240 And they could be, you know, in mis Manner's Washington Post column, 264 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:23,279 like they're just timeless conventional wisdom about how to do well together, like, 265 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:27,039 for example, don't gossip, don't be good to your friends just when you 266 00:19:27,079 --> 00:19:32,200 want something, be good to them all the time. Don't abuse your power 267 00:19:32,319 --> 00:19:34,440 over others, like be good to people who are weaker and more vulnerable than 268 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:41,119 you. Just remarkable how people, thoughtful, people who have studied human behavior 269 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:45,000 have come to these same principles about how to do life together. Those and 270 00:19:45,039 --> 00:19:48,480 it's all about restraining the selfish, restraining the ego, so that the social 271 00:19:48,519 --> 00:19:52,160 aspects of ourselves, the higher part of ourselves can flourish. And those are 272 00:19:52,319 --> 00:19:57,160 remarkably timeless across history and across culture. I was going to ask, I 273 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:03,799 know, you looked into some sort of cultural analyzes or differences, and it 274 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:07,240 sounds like at their root, a lot of at their roots, a lot 275 00:20:07,279 --> 00:20:14,079 of different concepts of civility internationally but also throughout history, so internationally over history 276 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:18,240 as well. Yes, come down to some basics. There's some basics that 277 00:20:18,279 --> 00:20:21,480 we as humans have sort of always agreed on. Yes, there is sort 278 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:26,200 of this universal language when it comes to when it comes to civility. For 279 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:30,559 example, a smile. There's something like biological about a smile, Like sure, 280 00:20:30,559 --> 00:20:33,119 we there the stereotypes, but some culture it's like Russians, you know, 281 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:37,599 never smile. They're just like kind of a chronically austere and like, 282 00:20:37,759 --> 00:20:40,640 you know, unhappy culture. But there's something like you know what, a 283 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:44,799 baby smiles at you. That's like a universal expression of joy and warmth. 284 00:20:45,559 --> 00:20:49,319 And I love this, So I love etymology. The word comedy cm it 285 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:55,359 t y is this old word that means kind of unity and social harmony. 286 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:59,640 We don't really use this word anymore, but it's related to this old Sands 287 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:06,960 Kurt word for smile. And I love that because because the way that friendship 288 00:21:07,039 --> 00:21:10,400 can can bring a smile, and smiling can foster friendship, there's just like 289 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:15,079 this reciprocal relationship. So I love your question because yes, there is sort 290 00:21:15,079 --> 00:21:19,720 of this universal grammar when it comes to the timeless principles of human flourishing, 291 00:21:21,039 --> 00:21:25,000 that the ephemeral, like that the manners, the etiquette, that those change 292 00:21:25,279 --> 00:21:30,559 within a culture and between cultures over time and overplace. But this is my 293 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:36,559 chapter two in my book, that the solution that the timeless principles of civility 294 00:21:36,599 --> 00:21:41,400 about restraining the self so the social can flourish, those are remarkably there's a 295 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:47,400 remarkable continuity. Caitlyn Flanagan, I was a wonderful writer over at The Atlantic, 296 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:49,480 made a fascinating point. This is going to sound like a hard pivot, 297 00:21:49,559 --> 00:21:56,400 but about John Fetterman's sweats that he's that was wearing to the Senate before 298 00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:00,440 truck Schumer was sort of shamed into allowing the vote for a dress code after 299 00:22:00,559 --> 00:22:04,559 initially allowing, you know, changing the rules or people's perception of the rules 300 00:22:04,559 --> 00:22:08,039 to allow John Fetterman to wear sweatshirts and whatever he was wearing to the Senate. 301 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:14,559 What was interesting about Kaitlyn Flanagain's point was that she said working class people 302 00:22:14,559 --> 00:22:19,160 would never show up to an important job dressed in sweatpants. You would dress 303 00:22:19,319 --> 00:22:23,559 up for the occasion. And John Fetterman is not from a working class background. 304 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:27,680 But if you look at other people like Mark Zuckerberg, for example, 305 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:33,880 who will wear a sweatshirt to the fanciest thing in the world, there's something 306 00:22:33,319 --> 00:22:37,440 or even like the Tesla, which is a luxury vehicle but looks, you 307 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:41,880 know, almost like the Mark Zuckerberg sweatshirt of cars. Like it is just 308 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:45,079 we have this interesting aesthetics thing, aesthetic thing going on in our culture right 309 00:22:45,079 --> 00:22:49,599 now. But I want to ask you about the question of class and civility, 310 00:22:51,559 --> 00:22:55,920 where it seems as though there's always been a perception in America that the 311 00:22:55,960 --> 00:23:00,720 lower you go down the socioeconomic rung. And maybe this isn't true throughout American 312 00:23:00,759 --> 00:23:03,319 history, but recent American history, the less sort of civil people are the 313 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:08,640 less civilized people. And now it's just so interesting to see in some ways 314 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:12,279 this weird inversion of that. I don't know if you agree with it, 315 00:23:12,319 --> 00:23:18,680 but where does class kind of come into historically, at least in the West, 316 00:23:18,839 --> 00:23:22,200 this question of civility and its standards. Well, it's a great question, 317 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:26,240 and I love that you brought up the question of dress code because it's 318 00:23:26,279 --> 00:23:32,920 true. It's a luxury status symbol of the privilege to not have to care, 319 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:37,720 right that the underprivileged, the working class, they have to do everything 320 00:23:37,759 --> 00:23:41,119 they can in their power to put them at an advantage. But if you 321 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:42,079 don't care, you don't have to dress the part, right, like you 322 00:23:42,079 --> 00:23:52,160 don't need anything from anyone. And I mean there's this whole vibe on social 323 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:56,720 media right now about quiet luxury right in the wake of succession, Like it's 324 00:23:56,759 --> 00:24:00,000 like giving off this vibe of I don't have to try, but like it's 325 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,400 you know, I dress for me, I have I have that that that 326 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:08,680 yeah, so quiet luxury, and it's it's really interesting in the context of 327 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,200 of Congress like that that whole debate will just pivot there really quickly, because 328 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:15,519 it's laughable that you know, we're in the face of a government shutdown right 329 00:24:15,559 --> 00:24:21,480 now, like our our our are our leaders cannot work together. They're not 330 00:24:21,519 --> 00:24:25,119 working together across difference, right like as our institutions are built for them to 331 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:27,960 do. And yet we just recently had a debate about etiquette. It's like 332 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:33,200 they're they're posturing about about decorum, about dress code, right, Like they're 333 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:37,920 posturing about, you know, maintaining the integrity of the institution by what we 334 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,839 wear and which is the stuff of politeness. Right Like they're they're kind of 335 00:24:41,839 --> 00:24:44,519 doing the sort of bait and switch, like they want they want to folk 336 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:49,599 distract with politeness and and and to hide at least temporarily that that that the 337 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:53,400 basic instivility, but that they're not able to. We're at this historic love 338 00:24:53,440 --> 00:25:00,359 where we're not able to our our our our institutions are not function as they 339 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,880 should because our leaders cannot work together. And yet we're having debate about about 340 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,480 etiquet and dress code and propriety. But I love that question about class. 341 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:11,599 There's this great book that I reference in my in my book by a commentator 342 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:17,440 called Pull Fusel, and his book is called Class in America and an insight 343 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:22,359 that that he several insights he offers that I think are very fascinating. America 344 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:26,680 is kind of this this this sticky wicket for class, like we kind of 345 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,519 deny it exists, at least in theory, right, Like we're the class 346 00:25:29,599 --> 00:25:34,839 list society. We abandoned the old world. We and with it we we 347 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:40,640 we you know, shoved off the monarchy and the aristocratic you know, rank 348 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,799 and hierarchy, and we build a system of in a way of life where 349 00:25:44,799 --> 00:25:48,359 all men are created equal and anyone can build for themselves the life that they 350 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:52,519 want and become what they want because we have this this this story about the 351 00:25:52,519 --> 00:25:56,200 bootstraps narrative and the ragist richest narrative, Like with hard work and determination, 352 00:25:56,319 --> 00:26:00,039 we can be who we want to be and succeed in life. And what 353 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,960 Paul Fusel says is that you know, class still very much exists, but 354 00:26:04,039 --> 00:26:08,400 we just deny it exists, and we have to It makes them more complicated. 355 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,680 We have to kind of invent new norms and new codes, a new 356 00:26:11,799 --> 00:26:18,079 language because we don't have it given to us by tradition and by you know, 357 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:19,440 our position to the monarchs. We don't have a monarch, so we 358 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:23,480 have to like reinvent it. And so he's absolutely hysterical. It's hard to 359 00:26:23,519 --> 00:26:27,160 know when he's when he's joking, when he's being serious, because it's just 360 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,279 a very ridiculous book. But one point I think he makes, it's really 361 00:26:30,279 --> 00:26:33,680 fascinating, and it kind of gets to this idea that Flanagan was getting at. 362 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:38,480 He says that when it comes to rules of etiquette and propriety, just 363 00:26:38,559 --> 00:26:44,000 guess who would be the most fastidious about the rules. Just just guess, 364 00:26:44,039 --> 00:26:45,400 like, if it's low class, middle class, upper class, who would 365 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,440 you who would you suspect? I think I would guess middle class. That's 366 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,640 exactly right, that's exactly it's the middle class because they're the So as a 367 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,079 country, we're perpetually status conscious, but the middle class are the most status 368 00:26:56,119 --> 00:27:00,559 conscious. And we're mostly a middle class country in America right now. And 369 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,720 so Fusel says, in the middle class, we're constantly, like you know, 370 00:27:03,839 --> 00:27:07,880 striving to be, you know, a little bit better and to make 371 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,920 ourselves feel okay, because we're never perfectly okay. There's always more to grow. 372 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,240 We're not at the top yet, there's always more we could have in 373 00:27:14,319 --> 00:27:18,039 terms of status, status and social approbation. So he says, the middle 374 00:27:18,079 --> 00:27:23,000 classes are the ones who are always looking around them for social infractions, who's 375 00:27:23,039 --> 00:27:27,119 not following the rules and who's pointing fingers because as someone else is breaking the 376 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:33,960 rule that I'm okay at least right now. And I love that because I 377 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:37,200 hope that readers, you know, hear that story and they feel a little 378 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,720 bit more grace for other people who are breaking the rules, like, oh, 379 00:27:40,799 --> 00:27:41,599 like you know, that's a middle class thing to do, and we 380 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:45,119 can have a little more And because it's true, it is a luxury of 381 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,880 the upper classes to be able to break the rules and get away with it 382 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:49,480 because they're going to be okay, they don't need anyone. But I think 383 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,759 that's really a really fascinating insight that that both you and Flanning and got to 384 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,599 hey, y'all, this is Sarah from this Eric Carter Show. Thanks for 385 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:07,160 listening to the Federalist Radio Hour. Healthy blood pressure is so important. 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Superbats is the number one pharmacists recommended beat brand for cardiovascular health 394 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:52,680 support. It's blood pressure support you can trust. Get a free thirty day 395 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:59,319 supply of Superbeats heart shoes and fifteen percent off your first order by going to 396 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,640 get super Beats dot com and using promo code Sarah. Get super Beats B 397 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:10,240 E E T S dot com code Sarah to get fifteen percent off your first 398 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:19,440 order. Get Superbeats dot com promo code Sarah. I remember when John Stewart 399 00:29:21,079 --> 00:29:26,400 sort of famously skewered Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson and kind of historically we think 400 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,519 put an end to crossfire. That's kind of the legend that John Stewart goes 401 00:29:29,559 --> 00:29:34,559 on Crossfire, skewers them to their face, and crossfire goes away. Stuart's 402 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:41,079 argument was basically that there was something that was not civil about arguing about politics 403 00:29:41,079 --> 00:29:47,200 in this kind of theatrical cable news format, and they were killing the country. 404 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:52,000 They were tiring everyone apart. Going back to the dawn of cable news 405 00:29:52,079 --> 00:29:56,599 twenty four to seven news cycles, Fancy Studios CNN. There have always been 406 00:29:57,079 --> 00:30:03,880 complaints that there's something is not civil about mass media and journalism, that kind 407 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,079 of combination yellow journalism even I mean, we can talk about all of those 408 00:30:07,119 --> 00:30:12,839 things, but it strikes me that Stewart was making that point before social media. 409 00:30:14,519 --> 00:30:18,759 It wasn't you know, it's directly about social media, and now we 410 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:23,319 have so many of those sort of bigala versus Carlson style conversations, not in 411 00:30:23,359 --> 00:30:27,400 person, not face to face. And Ben Nominat, who we both know 412 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,839 you used to host the show, makes a wonderful point that we like to 413 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:36,119 talk about here on the show that actually having that public debate modeling for people 414 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:40,599 that you can sit face to face across from another person and disagree with them 415 00:30:40,839 --> 00:30:45,240 on existential questions, questions of your faith, questions of everything, was a 416 00:30:45,279 --> 00:30:49,400 really positive thing to have in society. We'd lost when we sort of decided 417 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,799 to move on from that model and we moved on from that model and straight 418 00:30:52,839 --> 00:31:00,240 to social media. Social media is a huge question I imagine you think about 419 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:04,440 all the time, So this is kind of a big point to ask you 420 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,799 to address. But what did social media? What has it done? What 421 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:12,440 is it doing to our norms of stability. Yeah, it's a it's a 422 00:31:12,519 --> 00:31:18,480 really important question. I think it's worth zooming. I mean, tiny footnote 423 00:31:18,519 --> 00:31:21,960 to what you said. I didn't know about John Stewart coming on an ending 424 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:26,039 crossfire, but I did, uh watch that documentary called is it called Firing 425 00:31:26,759 --> 00:31:33,759 Crossfire Fire? Yeah, it's the best of Enemies exactly, and I remember 426 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:37,599 being really it was really evocative that final vignette where it goes from them shouting 427 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,640 into their Gorvidal and Bill Buckley to you know, people in MSNBC and Fox 428 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:45,480 News talking heads screaming at each other like really in quick succession, and of 429 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,480 course it kind of paints that picture that that's where it all began, you 430 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,880 know, that's when things all went off the rails. And I think, 431 00:31:52,079 --> 00:31:57,440 so what's interesting is we those stories are really seductive. We like to have 432 00:31:57,559 --> 00:32:01,240 meat narratives about Okay, this was the point where things went, you know, 433 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:06,960 went to hell in a handbasket. And what's interesting is that people have 434 00:32:07,039 --> 00:32:09,480 been telling those stories for a really long time, and people have been to 435 00:32:09,559 --> 00:32:15,119 crying the state of our public life, wanting more civility, and not just 436 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:20,079 in America, but across human history, across across culture as well, like 437 00:32:20,119 --> 00:32:23,960 all these civility handbooks I I mentioned a second ago from the Middle East, 438 00:32:24,039 --> 00:32:28,720 from ancient Egypt, from ancient Greece, Like people wouldn't have taken the time 439 00:32:28,759 --> 00:32:34,240 to write these things down if they hadn't felt like their society needed it and 440 00:32:34,359 --> 00:32:38,000 society was perfect and okay, right, And you know, on this point 441 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:42,920 about social media, there are a lot of, you know, appropriate concerns 442 00:32:43,359 --> 00:32:46,720 about what social media is doing to our democracy, to our children, to 443 00:32:47,079 --> 00:32:52,200 our public discourse, to our own souls, lots of lots of worthy concerns. 444 00:32:53,279 --> 00:32:57,160 I am grateful. I think it's a privilege to be a student of 445 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,359 history. I love studying the past because I think that it's both a caution 446 00:33:00,079 --> 00:33:05,119 and a comfort. It's a caution to us because it gives you a perspective 447 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,519 like things have been bad before they can get bad again. But it's also 448 00:33:07,599 --> 00:33:10,680 a comfort like they're not as bad as they have and we're not for example, 449 00:33:10,839 --> 00:33:13,640 when it comes to a division, we're on the brink of a civil 450 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:19,480 war, and so that's a comfort to us. But as a student of 451 00:33:19,559 --> 00:33:24,000 history, technology has always been this destabilizing force. Like a new technology in 452 00:33:24,079 --> 00:33:29,519 ters society and people go crazy. They're like, oh my gosh, we're 453 00:33:29,519 --> 00:33:31,759 going to collapse and social trust is down and we're going to have a civil 454 00:33:31,799 --> 00:33:37,480 war. And the example I think that is a really tight analog to social 455 00:33:37,519 --> 00:33:45,279 media and how disruptive it's been to society is what today is considered widely considered 456 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:52,720 the greatest invention of technology of all time, which is the Gutenberg printing Press. 457 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:57,400 So when the Gutenberg printing press was invented in the late fourteen hundreds, 458 00:33:58,359 --> 00:34:01,200 people felt the exact same way that we feel out social media right now, 459 00:34:01,279 --> 00:34:07,920 like, oh, it's destabilizing our institutions and it's causing mistrust. A gentleman, 460 00:34:08,119 --> 00:34:14,400 a monk named Martin Luther, was a really savvy social media practitioner and 461 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:20,800 and he wrote these viral this pamphlets that went viral that so mistrust amongst many 462 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,559 people, amongst like all of you know, Europe, in the institutions of 463 00:34:23,599 --> 00:34:27,360 the day, which were the Catholic Church and the ruling you know, ruling 464 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,719 authorities, and caused a lot of havoc. Shall we say, that's putting 465 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:35,880 it mildly like there was violence, there was war, and but today, 466 00:34:36,199 --> 00:34:37,639 you know, we don't think of the I mean depends on you know, 467 00:34:37,679 --> 00:34:43,039 your religious perspectives. I don't think that the Protestant Reformation was a you know, 468 00:34:43,119 --> 00:34:45,480 laterally bad thing, right. We don't think of the Gutenberg printing process 469 00:34:45,519 --> 00:34:47,239 as you and a laterally bad thing, like we think it was a good 470 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:52,000 thing. But for the same reason people people debated and they did in fact 471 00:34:52,039 --> 00:34:54,000 have censors, right, you had to have a license to print stuff for 472 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:59,159 for a very long time, and so Luther had this underground system of printing 473 00:34:59,159 --> 00:35:04,119 his pamphlets and and distributing them. So there's a lot of really tight tight 474 00:35:04,199 --> 00:35:07,719 comparisons and analogus between that and our current moment where social media is selling this 475 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:15,159 trust between you know, people and their institutions and destabilizing society and the spread 476 00:35:15,199 --> 00:35:17,000 of fake news and misinformation like that was a criticism that was a concern. 477 00:35:17,119 --> 00:35:22,119 Then five hundred years ago do their prostant reformation, And so I think that's 478 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:29,800 helpful because it's interesting how with time and distance history kind of it takes on 479 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,159 new shape and we see things differently. So in the moment now, it's 480 00:35:32,159 --> 00:35:36,159 scary, right, there's a lot we don't know, and there's a lot 481 00:35:36,159 --> 00:35:38,800 of reasons to be concerned. But I also think that again, looking the 482 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:45,159 past and these other destabilizing forces are it's helpful and it's comforting, and it 483 00:35:45,159 --> 00:35:52,320 gives us healthy perspective. It's so funny because you've just sort of walked into 484 00:35:52,559 --> 00:35:57,360 one of the longest running bits on this podcast, which is of our many 485 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:02,960 many Catholic guests and guess House claiming the Protestant Reformation really was a major mistake. 486 00:36:06,119 --> 00:36:08,840 But I'm a Lutheran, so I am firmly in the camp. Yeah, 487 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:13,880 you know where I fall on that too. Yeah. Oh gosh, 488 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:15,719 well, yes, shout out to Chris Bedford and I'm sure he is listening 489 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:20,320 to this. But anyway, the next question I wanted to ask actually was 490 00:36:22,519 --> 00:36:30,039 is there is it the case that sometimes civility or civil civilizational decline and civility 491 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:36,719 is the Canarian a coal mine for broader civilizational decline? Do you see that 492 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,360 across history? Is civility sort of always kind of up in the air, 493 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:45,679 except for maybe like Victorian the Victorian era that we historically kind of associate with 494 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:47,960 it, Or is it, you know, really a Canarian a coal mine 495 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:53,400 for something broader problems? No, I think it's a fascinating question insight that 496 00:36:54,800 --> 00:37:02,239 civilization really does live or die in the in the norms of its citizens. 497 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:08,760 Democracy depends on the norms of its citizens. Samuel Johnson, who you know, 498 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:15,639 didn't invent he transcribed he you know, author the first English Dictionary. 499 00:37:15,639 --> 00:37:16,679 He has this great line in seventy to fifty five. He has this great 500 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:22,079 line that civilization, the test of true civilization is how society cares for its 501 00:37:22,079 --> 00:37:25,840 weakest and most vulnerable. And so he's, you know, he's saying that 502 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:31,519 like civilization lives or dies in the in the character of its citizens, are 503 00:37:31,559 --> 00:37:36,960 we is a civilization full of citizens who care about the vulnerable, care about 504 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,639 the oppressed, care about justice, care about equality for all? Or is 505 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:44,599 it is it comprised of people who are indifferent to those things, and that 506 00:37:44,599 --> 00:37:50,760 that is the stuff of barbarism in the decline of civilization. But I think 507 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:53,599 it's a really interesting point, and I talk about this in the book, 508 00:37:53,679 --> 00:38:01,000 that our daily decisions to affirm the dignity, the humanity and the personhood of 509 00:38:01,159 --> 00:38:07,039 everyone we meet, our uber driver, our clerk at the grocery store, 510 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:12,320 that is the stuff that gives us all resolved to kind of keep doing this 511 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,519 hard thing of life together, or to want to give up Like I think 512 00:38:15,519 --> 00:38:20,320 we insufficiently appreciate the way that the small things that we do every day have 513 00:38:20,679 --> 00:38:23,800 huge, serious consequences for society. So to that extent, I think you're 514 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:30,440 right that it is appropriate to take the daily exchanges that we have and extrapolate 515 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:35,000 it like, Okay, how healthy is a society? How? Because it's 516 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:39,519 like how committed are we at the individual level to this joint partnership of self 517 00:38:39,519 --> 00:38:45,079 governance that is a democracy? And self governance is key there because that's what 518 00:38:45,119 --> 00:38:51,760 civility is. It's voluntarily choosing to restrain what we want, our our immediate 519 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,280 desire, our impulse for the sake of society. We live in community, 520 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:59,719 we live in civilization, and we can't just monolithically, unilaterally do what we 521 00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:01,440 want to do at all times in all places. Like that's the if you 522 00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,719 live in an island, go ahead, but you don't. If you don't, 523 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:07,559 if you choose to lean society, you have to consider the needs and 524 00:39:07,559 --> 00:39:13,159 well beings of our fellow persons and our citizens alongside of ourselves. That's that's 525 00:39:13,199 --> 00:39:15,800 just part of the social contract. We have to do it. And and 526 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:21,880 this is this is an explore in the book that when enough people fail to 527 00:39:22,039 --> 00:39:27,199 do that, autocrats past and present have tried to get involved. And I 528 00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:31,719 tell several stories, one of which is of Mayor Michael Bloomberg's Politeness campaign when 529 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:37,199 he was mayor of New York City. He you know, had thought, 530 00:39:37,519 --> 00:39:40,119 or people thought, that there had been a fever pitch of incivility in New 531 00:39:40,199 --> 00:39:45,960 York and that it was time to do something about it. And so he 532 00:39:45,039 --> 00:39:50,760 instituted all of these laws to mandate common condecency and courtesy, all these these 533 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:54,000 laws against petty rudeness, uh, you know, putting your feet on the 534 00:39:54,039 --> 00:39:59,440 subway next to you, if you're a kid at your at your child's baseball 535 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:01,360 game, if you're too rowdy, find fifty dollars. If you're texting the 536 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:05,440 movie, you're fined fifty dollars. If you spit on the street, Yeah, 537 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,320 that's gross, but fined fifty dollars, you know. And New Yorkers 538 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:13,280 did not like being civilized by their local government. And it was also didn't 539 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:15,159 work. It was impossible to enforce, so that didn't That was very short 540 00:40:15,199 --> 00:40:20,760 lived. But it's a cautionary tale because in our democracy, our our limited 541 00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:25,039 government, our free and flourishing way of life depends on our decisions every day 542 00:40:25,159 --> 00:40:30,440 to restrain ourselves for the sake of others, and so we can flourish because 543 00:40:30,519 --> 00:40:36,639 there's high promise in community. Life with others is the highest and best life. 544 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:39,800 But it is hard. It's very hard, and we each have decisions 545 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:43,760 to make each day about how committed we are to this project. But we 546 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,199 each have a role to play in it. Yeah, it's weird to think, 547 00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:52,039 you know, sort of over time of these you know, wealthy plantation 548 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:57,360 owners who were imbibing the finest art, the finest everything at the time, 549 00:40:57,519 --> 00:41:01,440 or a certain you know, twenty cent tree dictator who famously didn't eat meat 550 00:41:01,519 --> 00:41:07,519 because it was just barbaric what we did to animals while doing awful, unspeakable 551 00:41:07,519 --> 00:41:13,559 things to human beings. The definition of civility seems to be so easily weaponized, 552 00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:17,880 or like it seems like you're easy. It's easy for people to reprogram 553 00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:22,280 their ideas of what it is right. I mean, this is the beauty 554 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,880 of the English language. So I mentioned Samuel Johnson earlier when he defined the 555 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:30,719 English language. He defined every word in English in seventeen fifty five. He 556 00:41:31,079 --> 00:41:39,760 took a descriptive approach. He just defined words as they were currently used in 557 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:45,400 everyday conversation. And that's different from other other languages. For example, French, 558 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:50,880 there's the institution called the Academy Francis that they decide what words mean, 559 00:41:51,159 --> 00:41:54,119 and even if they're slang or you know, words take on different meanings outside 560 00:41:54,119 --> 00:41:58,199 of their definition. They don't acknowledge it. They don't recognize a very inflexible, 561 00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:00,480 structured language that that's like the custom of the French culture. How dare 562 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:04,480 you? You know? But but English is very loose and free flowing and 563 00:42:04,559 --> 00:42:07,519 it's and so I think that it's appropriates very much in keeping with what English 564 00:42:07,679 --> 00:42:13,480 is as a language to say, look, we need clarity about this concept, 565 00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:17,159 and this concept being what civility is. And I will say, you 566 00:42:17,199 --> 00:42:21,320 know, for all of his virtues, Samuel Johnson, I think got it 567 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,639 wrong. He defines civility in terms of politeness, politeness in terms of civility, 568 00:42:24,679 --> 00:42:29,440 and we've been doing it ever since. If you go to dictionary dot 569 00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:32,280 com right now, you will see civility in terms of politeness, fin civility 570 00:42:32,639 --> 00:42:37,320 and so. But so I think we need to disinviguate them and to robust 571 00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:39,840 to define him them as as I as I have to help us think more 572 00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:44,840 clearly about what do we want less of in a society. And I think 573 00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:46,960 we want less home policing. We want less to focus on, you know, 574 00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:52,320 pretending to be good and just shuring at respecting people. And I think 575 00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,639 we need more civility in society, actually being good, actually respecting people, 576 00:42:55,679 --> 00:43:00,639 even if that makes us uncomfortable and requires demands that we have tough conversations, 577 00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:04,559 but we need to have. That's what democracy is. We have to have 578 00:43:04,599 --> 00:43:13,719 those conversations to flourish and do this thing called life together. The Watch dootwn 579 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:17,039 Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day Chris helps unpack the connection between 580 00:43:17,039 --> 00:43:21,400 politics and the economy and how it affects your wile. Every crisis is an 581 00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,280 opportunity for government to take our freedoms away. The Wall Street Journal reports that 582 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:30,000 the Security and Exchange Commission has created a database to track every single stock transaction 583 00:43:30,159 --> 00:43:32,000 in your portfolio. Whether it be nine to eleven, the Patriot Act, 584 00:43:32,039 --> 00:43:35,639 When is this going to end? Whether it's happening in DC or down on 585 00:43:35,679 --> 00:43:37,519 Wall Street, it's affecting you financially. Be informed. Check out the Watch 586 00:43:37,559 --> 00:43:42,280 Down Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get 587 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:50,880 your podcasts. Well, this is my last question. You have a book 588 00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:57,480 coming out the week after the historic first yanking of a Speaker of the House 589 00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:00,559 from the chair, the first successful notion of vacate House of Representatives, famously 590 00:44:00,639 --> 00:44:06,880 the sort of chamber of the messiness of democracy. So I wanted to ask 591 00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,039 just looking back, we're kind of in the middle of now we're recording this 592 00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:15,239 the day after McCarthy was actually ousted. But looking back on everything that just 593 00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:19,159 transpired, we had a Democrat pulling the fire alarm over the weekend, Republicans 594 00:44:19,639 --> 00:44:23,079 sniping at each other on the floor of the House. As somebody who's just 595 00:44:23,079 --> 00:44:29,159 written a book on civility, how do you analyze what just happened or how 596 00:44:29,159 --> 00:44:34,519 do you see in this context of American civility what just transpired in the House. 597 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:39,320 So there there, it's crazy, right, it's a spectacle. It's 598 00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:42,800 insane. Like I have friends on the on the hill I was texting with 599 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,280 yesterday're like everyone's at a tizzy, like literally no one knows what to do. 600 00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:51,079 And you know, this is kind of tame, really compared to what 601 00:44:51,159 --> 00:44:54,039 things have been in Congress before again, history is such a good, healthy 602 00:44:54,239 --> 00:45:00,760 ballast. It helps us keep perspective. So here's you know, here's the 603 00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:07,559 story of of uh that that shows this. During the debates about abolition, 604 00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:12,960 there was a congress person, uh no, there was a Senator, Charles 605 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,519 Sumner, and he was vehemently you know, anti slavery, right, and 606 00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:21,840 he on the Senate floor one day he gave a speech that got personal. 607 00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:28,039 He called out a particular congress person and for being pro slavery. And that 608 00:45:28,079 --> 00:45:31,800 congress person's brother or cousin, I forget. A congress person named named Preston 609 00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:36,519 Brooks came over, you know, from the House side to the Senate side, 610 00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,239 and and and beat similar to death, almost to death, within an 611 00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:44,280 inch of his life. And he took he took three two or three years 612 00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:49,119 to recover from this, basically an assassination attempt on the Senate on the Senate 613 00:45:49,159 --> 00:45:53,559 floor. And what's interesting about this, you know, that's a very famous 614 00:45:53,559 --> 00:45:57,679 instance of you know, shall we say, in politeness and in civility, 615 00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:00,880 like beating someone with an inch of their life is neither nor civil. But 616 00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:06,920 what's interesting about this is that there was this hole in the South. There 617 00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:13,519 was this whole culture, this whole artifice at this time of politeness, of 618 00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:19,360 gentility, and they loved King Arthur and the Knight's the rounds table and it's 619 00:46:19,559 --> 00:46:22,000 you know, it's sweet because I'm my son's name is Perceval, and we 620 00:46:22,079 --> 00:46:24,039 read those stories to him every night, like the stories of like Enchantment and 621 00:46:24,079 --> 00:46:29,159 Marlin, and it's beautiful. But they love those things and they literally recreated, 622 00:46:29,159 --> 00:46:32,320 they consciously self created their whole society around recovering these ideals of chivalry and 623 00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:37,199 gentilic. They jousted, they've literally you know, jousted in the South, 624 00:46:37,559 --> 00:46:40,119 and yet that was a pretty you know, polished, refined exterior on an 625 00:46:40,199 --> 00:46:45,239 unjust society that subjugated half of their population or you know, like African Americans 626 00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:52,000 and through through slavery and so anyway, the point is that when Preston Brooks 627 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:58,239 attacked Charles Sumner, he did not attack Sumner as he would an equal, 628 00:46:59,199 --> 00:47:01,280 and he would if he had seen Sumner as as his equal, as his 629 00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:07,039 moral equal, he would have what would he have done, challenge him to 630 00:47:07,119 --> 00:47:09,920 a duel, you know like that, that's how gentlemen you know, quarreled 631 00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:15,880 back then. But instead he approached him from behind and beat him to almost 632 00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:19,760 death like he would a slave, because he didn't respect him as as as 633 00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:23,800 is moral equal. And that was a whole concern tiny foot note with the 634 00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:28,320 character of this of the South, there was a whole whole concern that slavery 635 00:47:28,679 --> 00:47:30,679 owning, that the whole entity of owning a slave to form the soul of 636 00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:37,199 a slaveholder and made them unfit for self governance and democracy. Being cruel and 637 00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:39,719 literally owning another person's property made them unfit for tomorrow. That was a whole 638 00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:44,480 debate during that time, and I think that's really well embodied in this instance 639 00:47:44,559 --> 00:47:46,920 where a congressman beats the center than an end of his life as he would 640 00:47:47,119 --> 00:47:52,559 slave. They did that. Southerners look down on and didn't respect Northerners as 641 00:47:52,599 --> 00:47:54,440 their moral as their moral equals. So all that is that. I think 642 00:47:54,679 --> 00:47:59,280 it's a powerful story for many reasons, most of which this is again, 643 00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:02,639 this is tame. This is tame compared to compared to what our country has 644 00:48:02,679 --> 00:48:07,199 been through before. So I have hope. I think we'll make everyone's in. 645 00:48:07,199 --> 00:48:08,840 It's hissy, but I think we're okay. There you go. The 646 00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:15,880 book is called The Soul of Civility, timeless Principles to heal society and ourselves. 647 00:48:15,159 --> 00:48:20,239 The author is Alexandra Hudson you've been listening to on this edition of the 648 00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:25,280 show, Alexander. Alexandra is the founder of a Civic Renaissance and is hosting 649 00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:30,400 a Civility summit on October ninth. The book is out on October tenth. 650 00:48:30,559 --> 00:48:35,000 Alexandra, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. 651 00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:38,000 Emily. Of course you've been listening to another edition of The Federalist Radio 652 00:48:38,079 --> 00:48:40,840 Hour. I'm Emily Dashinsky, culture editor here at the Federalist. Will be 653 00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:57,800 back soon with more. Until then, new lovers of freedom and anxious for the Fray