WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.439 --> 00:00:06.639 Is sponsored by Wallstreet, Window dot Com and listeners like you, yeah, 2 00:00:06.679 --> 00:00:15.599 yeah, and now Media. October nineteen, Yeah, it looks like that. 3 00:00:15.679 --> 00:00:19.199 October nineteen, twenty twenty three. Allegedly, according to that thing we 4 00:00:19.280 --> 00:00:23.039 call a calendar, this is the o'celly effect. And we are live here 5 00:00:23.079 --> 00:00:26.559 on a Thursday, so this is going to be an interesting one. Now. 6 00:00:26.640 --> 00:00:29.600 I know that you might have noticed lately I'm doing a few shows on 7 00:00:29.719 --> 00:00:33.240 JFK. I know, last night we did something on FDR, and this 8 00:00:33.320 --> 00:00:36.359 week I've gone to a lighter schedule because my back is thrown out. But 9 00:00:36.600 --> 00:00:39.679 uh, that's what happens when you try and do too much on a Saturday. 10 00:00:40.399 --> 00:00:43.960 So you know, just going to try and heal before I go to 11 00:00:44.039 --> 00:00:48.039 Lancer. And guess what got two guys with me tonight that are involved in 12 00:00:48.119 --> 00:00:52.280 Lancer. Mike Swanson, the guy behind Wallstreet Window dot Com, being the 13 00:00:52.320 --> 00:00:56.119 no go to Wallstreet Window dot Com. It's not just about Wall Street. 14 00:00:56.200 --> 00:01:00.000 He's also the author of the War State and Why the Vietnam War, which 15 00:01:00.039 --> 00:01:03.519 is the first in a series on that conflict, and you might have heard 16 00:01:03.560 --> 00:01:08.680 those audio commercials during my podcast. In addition, as somebody who we have 17 00:01:08.799 --> 00:01:14.840 not done much in a while, but he has been on here a lot 18 00:01:14.879 --> 00:01:21.079 in the past. Carmine Savastano his website tapak tpaak dot com. What does 19 00:01:21.120 --> 00:01:23.400 that stand for? Oh, just so happens to line up nicely to a 20 00:01:23.400 --> 00:01:27.480 book he wrote called Two Princes and a King, the two princes being the 21 00:01:27.560 --> 00:01:33.599 Kennedy's John and Robert, and of course the king being Martin Luther King Junior. 22 00:01:34.040 --> 00:01:38.760 His concise review of three political assassinations, and that's what the website is 23 00:01:38.840 --> 00:01:44.079 named after. He's also the author of another book, which we never did 24 00:01:44.079 --> 00:01:48.319 get quite breakdown entirely on this show, but one of these days I might 25 00:01:48.319 --> 00:01:52.719 have arguments with him about it, a bit more of a sociological study which 26 00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:57.799 I find to be less than optimistic about the human condition and what it could 27 00:01:57.879 --> 00:02:01.000 be. But anyway, the history and what it is is usually what Carmine 28 00:02:01.079 --> 00:02:05.239 is about. So that's who I've got with me tonight, and we're gonna 29 00:02:05.280 --> 00:02:08.719 do this for about an hour, but it might take more. Carmine will 30 00:02:08.759 --> 00:02:13.599 be appearing at the Lancer Conference, okay in November, but he'll be there 31 00:02:13.680 --> 00:02:17.520 virtually. Mike Swatson and I will be in the breakout room and I will 32 00:02:17.520 --> 00:02:22.680 have some of Mike's books with me. Hopefully he'll be willing to sign some 33 00:02:22.680 --> 00:02:25.000 stuff for you guys, all that good stuff. And uh yeah, the 34 00:02:25.039 --> 00:02:29.520 whole tenth anniversary of the Ocelli effect going on in the room, sometimes in 35 00:02:29.599 --> 00:02:32.479 the media room, et cetera. We're gonna do breakouts and on the MC 36 00:02:32.840 --> 00:02:38.000 of the Lancer conference this year. So that's the way that's going. Okay, 37 00:02:38.039 --> 00:02:42.759 now I've gotten it all out of the way first, Mike. You 38 00:02:42.800 --> 00:02:46.199 know, I know Carmine is going to have the majority of the material tonight, 39 00:02:46.319 --> 00:02:47.840 but you and I are going to be in the great position to being 40 00:02:47.879 --> 00:02:52.080 able to comment on it as he goes through. And we got to catch 41 00:02:52.159 --> 00:02:54.680 up with a bunch of things because haven't had Carmine on to discuss a whole 42 00:02:54.680 --> 00:03:00.680 bunch of things that have emerged regarding the JFK case. But before we get 43 00:03:00.719 --> 00:03:02.240 into all of that, how are you doing tonight, Mike? Oh, 44 00:03:02.280 --> 00:03:07.159 I'm doing great. Yeah, I'm really looking forward to hearing what Carbon has 45 00:03:07.199 --> 00:03:13.000 to share with us. He's been doing a lot of research into maybe figures 46 00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:17.479 that people don't even know about in the history of the CIA and the KGB 47 00:03:17.719 --> 00:03:22.280 and the whole intelligence world, right, I mean, and if you go 48 00:03:22.319 --> 00:03:24.360 to his website you can see a lot of that stuff he's got, and 49 00:03:24.400 --> 00:03:28.560 he's going to tell you about it, I'm sure. But I mean there's 50 00:03:28.599 --> 00:03:32.000 a lot of stuff going on there, brand new material even that has been 51 00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:36.199 going up in the past few months. I was rather fascinated by an article 52 00:03:36.240 --> 00:03:39.960 about the destruction of evidence, and oh gee, since I do have Carmine 53 00:03:40.000 --> 00:03:43.719 on, we might have to talk about evidence, since that's usually what we 54 00:03:43.800 --> 00:03:51.479 cover, right, actual evidence, not fan fiction speculation or somebody's romantic machinations. 55 00:03:51.800 --> 00:03:55.120 Has he talked about that on your show? I think he has that 56 00:03:55.599 --> 00:04:00.919 file he found Oh no, no, not just yet. We never got 57 00:04:00.919 --> 00:04:01.960 to it. We never got to it, but I think we're going to 58 00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:05.800 get to it tonight. Plus didn't get Carmine's view on the Paul Landis thing 59 00:04:05.840 --> 00:04:09.680 that came out not too long ago, you know, great selling book on 60 00:04:09.719 --> 00:04:14.840 Amazon. There you hear that here there's crickets, I do, because I 61 00:04:14.840 --> 00:04:19.560 ain't reading that crap the revelation anyway, whatever it is. Carmine, how 62 00:04:19.600 --> 00:04:26.040 you doing, man? Doing good? Good to be back again. I'm 63 00:04:26.040 --> 00:04:29.319 so glad to have you on. I mean, let's let's dispose of the 64 00:04:29.839 --> 00:04:33.759 larger elephants in the room first, right, you know what, what was 65 00:04:33.839 --> 00:04:39.720 your view on the Paul Landis revelation from you know, some weeks ago now, 66 00:04:39.839 --> 00:04:44.639 which you know oversold the advanced orders on Amazon. I mean, it 67 00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:49.079 made that book sell really well, didn't it. We can observe that publicly. 68 00:04:49.800 --> 00:04:53.879 But what about the evidence? What about the revelation, Carmine, what 69 00:04:53.879 --> 00:04:57.560 do you think of the I actually took the bullet and put it by Kennedy's 70 00:04:57.600 --> 00:05:02.040 head there on a table in the hospital and all this. What was your 71 00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:08.120 thoughts on Paul Landis, Well, there's I think quite a bit to be 72 00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:14.040 said about it, But largely the problem is is now we're at such a 73 00:05:14.079 --> 00:05:18.639 distance from the date of the event that for him to change his story so 74 00:05:18.759 --> 00:05:26.000 utterly makes it really hard to believe. And if you want to believe it, 75 00:05:26.040 --> 00:05:31.240 that's fine. But just as if someone you know, from the other 76 00:05:31.279 --> 00:05:34.839 side of the case were to come out now and say, oh, by 77 00:05:34.920 --> 00:05:39.399 the way, I knew all these people or I did all these things. 78 00:05:39.560 --> 00:05:43.040 I do believe. We've heard that before. Yeah, it's amazing. It's 79 00:05:43.120 --> 00:05:46.360 the it's the exact same thing. The credibility problem is you know, you 80 00:05:46.399 --> 00:05:49.560 can't say one thing. That's why Maria Oswald, in my opinion, has 81 00:05:49.560 --> 00:05:54.959 always been untrustworthy because she gives you two stories. If you tell multiple stories, 82 00:05:55.759 --> 00:05:58.519 and if there's a lot of distance in between them, that makes it 83 00:05:58.560 --> 00:06:02.439 even harder to substantiate. Well, well, Marina though, see now I 84 00:06:02.560 --> 00:06:08.920 would defend Marina more than I would Paul Landis because Marina was under different pressures. 85 00:06:09.439 --> 00:06:13.360 There was a language barrier, there was a translation issue, you know, 86 00:06:13.839 --> 00:06:16.000 there were there were reasons why she could have why she could have had 87 00:06:16.199 --> 00:06:20.759 different versions to some extent. But my whole thing with Marina is is that, 88 00:06:21.360 --> 00:06:26.199 as far as Oswald goes, she told two different entire stories the day 89 00:06:26.279 --> 00:06:30.759 of the crime. M Like, she told the FBI that she made him 90 00:06:30.759 --> 00:06:32.720 breakfast, that he got up, that she saw him leave, But she 91 00:06:32.759 --> 00:06:35.920 also told the FBI that she was in bed, that he left before she 92 00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:41.519 got up. Oh yeah, I mean, big problems with her story and 93 00:06:41.519 --> 00:06:46.240 and and but this is even worse because what Landas is saying is not only 94 00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:51.600 did he let the the which I still think is improbable, story of the 95 00:06:51.639 --> 00:06:57.120 magic bullet go on for all those years and support that lie his entire life 96 00:06:57.240 --> 00:07:01.360 until he finally wanted to put out a book, right, which makes it 97 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:06.040 makes it worse, just another reason why it's hard to believe. I knew 98 00:07:06.040 --> 00:07:10.079 we were going to get some laughs out of you on this, because here 99 00:07:10.120 --> 00:07:13.560 we go. It is laughable. I mean, for somebody to come out 100 00:07:13.560 --> 00:07:16.360 with this story so so long late, you know, so much, so 101 00:07:16.399 --> 00:07:21.399 many years later. And on top of it, look, here's the here's 102 00:07:21.439 --> 00:07:26.360 the other problem. If you took that story at face value, I mean, 103 00:07:26.399 --> 00:07:29.199 you know, exactly what charges does this guy need to be put up 104 00:07:29.199 --> 00:07:31.879 on tampering with evidence? Oh? Wait, the jurisdiction, would you know? 105 00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:35.879 I mean, the statute of limitation would be gone. But I mean 106 00:07:36.199 --> 00:07:40.639 still, you're telling me you tampered with history and you had no idea. 107 00:07:41.040 --> 00:07:43.720 That's the other weird part of the story, right where it's like, well, 108 00:07:43.720 --> 00:07:46.560 I had no idea that this was a big controversy, Like did you 109 00:07:46.600 --> 00:07:51.680 see that part of it? His interviews and stuff. I saw a couple 110 00:07:51.720 --> 00:07:55.759 of them, but I probably didn't see all the ones you might have seen 111 00:07:55.759 --> 00:08:01.199 that. I'm sorry, ah, goodness, I'm interrupted you. Yeah, 112 00:08:01.480 --> 00:08:07.040 Well, he you know, he was who he said he was, you 113 00:08:07.079 --> 00:08:11.319 know, And that was the first thing I looked at he really was a 114 00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:18.680 secret service agent. He really was at the Parkland Hospital, and he really 115 00:08:18.920 --> 00:08:24.920 was spent a lot of time with Missus Kennedy at the hospital and then over 116 00:08:24.920 --> 00:08:28.560 the course the next at least six months, think longer than that, along 117 00:08:28.600 --> 00:08:33.000 with Clint Hill. And he claimed that, you know, him and Clint 118 00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:41.360 Hill were really good buddies, and they simply never spoke about assassination together and 119 00:08:41.399 --> 00:08:46.240 that's why he didn't tell the story. That's his claim about why he didn't. 120 00:08:48.080 --> 00:08:52.039 They just didn't discover, which is hard to believe. I don't really 121 00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:56.720 know how they would not discuss it. You know, I would think it's 122 00:08:56.759 --> 00:09:03.039 impossible number one. Number two, it's anything is possible, but it's certainly 123 00:09:03.080 --> 00:09:07.480 improbable. And here's the thing. The best case scenario what we have here 124 00:09:07.639 --> 00:09:11.919 is is because this year my speech at Lands are gonna be talking about altered 125 00:09:11.960 --> 00:09:16.200 evidence. So if we believe him, he altered evidence drastically right, and 126 00:09:16.240 --> 00:09:20.879 then let the American public be misled for sixty years, That's that's the best 127 00:09:20.879 --> 00:09:26.039 case scenario. Or the worst case scenario is he's lying just to sell more 128 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:31.759 books. But once again he's an official that's muddying the evidentiary waters for the 129 00:09:31.799 --> 00:09:37.039 public. Well, I would say he could also be if his story is 130 00:09:37.120 --> 00:09:43.080 true, then he's like a moron. Well is it a patsy? Certainly, 131 00:09:45.240 --> 00:09:50.759 you know that's possible, or he's you know, got memory problems. 132 00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:54.759 Well that's another problem here, because look, the way that I line it 133 00:09:54.840 --> 00:10:00.000 up is based on a whole bunch of other corroborating evidence. That's a separate 134 00:10:00.039 --> 00:10:03.480 bullet from what was found, because this bullet was not something that was placed 135 00:10:03.480 --> 00:10:07.320 anywhere near Kennedy's head. He says he put this thing near his head. 136 00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:13.759 Okay. In other words, if you believe how the bullet was found in 137 00:10:13.799 --> 00:10:18.080 the first place, right, according to all the evidence, all the stuff 138 00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:22.679 the FBI reports, et cetera, Right, this is now a different bullet. 139 00:10:24.840 --> 00:10:28.320 How many bullets do we have here? Okay, especially considering some of 140 00:10:28.360 --> 00:10:30.840 this stuff was dug out of the rug and so on and so forth. 141 00:10:30.919 --> 00:10:35.200 Right, some of the fragments he's talking about a full bullet here? How 142 00:10:35.240 --> 00:10:39.559 many full bullets are there? Is it even potentially the CE three ninety nine 143 00:10:39.600 --> 00:10:43.399 bullet? Not according to his description? You know, there's all sorts of 144 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:46.799 problems here, And I find it funny, of course, that you know, 145 00:10:46.919 --> 00:10:50.759 Yeah, he pre sales on a book first off. Second, Apple, 146 00:10:52.399 --> 00:10:56.000 I think it's Apple as a brand new it might. I think it's 147 00:10:56.039 --> 00:11:00.159 Apple has a brand new three part mini series now where you know Clint Hill 148 00:11:00.240 --> 00:11:03.879 is also on it. And Clint Hill came out right away and basically said 149 00:11:03.879 --> 00:11:07.720 he didn't buy Landis's story, which was interesting because you know, the guy's 150 00:11:07.720 --> 00:11:11.679 got he's on oxygen. He's sitting there. I mean, Clint Hill look 151 00:11:13.360 --> 00:11:16.799 sixty years later. You know, I'm surprised Clint Hill is still with us, 152 00:11:16.519 --> 00:11:18.639 to be honest with you, Well, and if you want, if 153 00:11:18.639 --> 00:11:22.679 you want to get even into you know, a sub depth to all of 154 00:11:22.720 --> 00:11:26.080 this. Maybe this is intentional. See, maybe this is another thing they're 155 00:11:26.120 --> 00:11:31.279 throwing out there to muddy the waters intentionally because they're running out of files to 156 00:11:31.360 --> 00:11:35.320 produce. Well, then, well, I think you're onto something right there. 157 00:11:35.399 --> 00:11:37.919 Not. I don't know if it's intentional. I don't know it's intentional, 158 00:11:39.440 --> 00:11:46.679 but I would say this that this story when it hit and came out, 159 00:11:48.159 --> 00:11:52.639 it dominated the news cycle. It was on like every single news website 160 00:11:52.679 --> 00:11:56.600 you can look at, right. It was on all the major networks, 161 00:11:56.639 --> 00:12:03.360 Fox News and full spread across corporate medium. Yes, everywhere, drudge everywhere, 162 00:12:03.440 --> 00:12:07.759 everywhere. And the thing about it is, this is like the perfect 163 00:12:07.840 --> 00:12:13.600 story for them to want to talk about. I mean, it was in 164 00:12:13.639 --> 00:12:16.519 the New York Times for gonna sake, like on the front, you know, 165 00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:20.879 the front page of it. This is like the perfect story for them 166 00:12:20.240 --> 00:12:28.559 to talk about the Kenny assassination because here we go again, let's talk about 167 00:12:28.759 --> 00:12:33.879 the bullet or some you know, thing that you can't prove one way or 168 00:12:33.919 --> 00:12:41.159 the other because of the problems you've cited with the guy's account, and it 169 00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:48.559 leads nowhere, and it's a great distraction from something is simple and more important, 170 00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:52.879 such as the file you got a Carbine show. There's a lot of 171 00:12:52.919 --> 00:12:58.840 structured documents, and I'm going to bridge into that in a moment. I 172 00:12:58.879 --> 00:13:01.440 just want to finish with because this is important. I want to make sure 173 00:13:01.480 --> 00:13:07.639 that people understand we're not sitting here saying that there is an intentional program out 174 00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:11.600 there to muddy the waters by the officials, not even saying that that is 175 00:13:11.639 --> 00:13:15.960 what's going on. But I would say that there's a passive endorsement here, 176 00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:18.519 because the more muddy it is, the less likely it is that anybody is 177 00:13:18.559 --> 00:13:24.320 ever going to get to any sort of culmination regarding the overwhelming weight of evidence. 178 00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:28.480 Okay, And that is how this is useful. Immediately you have people 179 00:13:28.559 --> 00:13:33.279 like you know, Jefferson Morley and Gary Aguilar and other people that are extremely 180 00:13:33.360 --> 00:13:39.559 good at making very good points, okay, and debating the talking heads that 181 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:41.639 they dragged out in the MSM. Because right away, who are we confronted 182 00:13:41.679 --> 00:13:48.720 with but Gerald Posnerner okay, you know, and others. Right there was 183 00:13:48.759 --> 00:13:52.320 a couple other people that I didn't even know, Roe Kennedy books by the 184 00:13:52.320 --> 00:13:54.600 way, that that we're so pulled out. Yeah, after the loss of 185 00:13:54.679 --> 00:13:58.360 McAdams, they really have no one that has served assert of the champion of 186 00:13:58.480 --> 00:14:07.919 the boy and your favorite Vince, Yeah, Vince is gone too, that's 187 00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:11.840 right. With both of them gone, they really have no you know, 188 00:14:11.480 --> 00:14:16.440 yeah, dominant voice that is. And honestly, now with once again with 189 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:20.279 Landis, like I said, the best case scenario is he altered evidence. 190 00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:24.759 Well, and speaking of I know, that's that's the funniest part is if 191 00:14:24.799 --> 00:14:28.799 you buy this story, then he altered evidence completely, you know, just 192 00:14:28.840 --> 00:14:33.120 as much as the guy did with the sponge and the bucket. Okay. 193 00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:37.120 Mopping up blood in the limousine. Just as much as that happened, this 194 00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:41.960 guy's altering evidence period, because nobody is going to contend that the car is 195 00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:46.440 a murdercy period. Okay, therefore people were destroying evidence. Oh and by 196 00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:50.919 the way, you know those people that say, well, they don't destroy 197 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:54.639 evidence, they can't get away with it. Look, I don't often say 198 00:14:54.639 --> 00:14:58.440 that. I don't default to that because a lot of people default to it 199 00:14:58.480 --> 00:15:01.720 overall and say, look, all the evidence that is useful has been destroyed. 200 00:15:01.480 --> 00:15:05.879 I don't buy that because I don't think anybody is familiar enough. Well, 201 00:15:05.960 --> 00:15:09.279 there's too much. The thing is, nobody is familiar enough with this 202 00:15:09.320 --> 00:15:15.240 stuff. Well, those kind of people too often use that as excuse not 203 00:15:15.320 --> 00:15:20.159 to look at them any of the evidence exactly, And therefore they just declare 204 00:15:20.159 --> 00:15:22.879 it all fake, and whatever was in fake is destroyed, and then you 205 00:15:22.960 --> 00:15:28.360 have a whole other issue about muddying the water. But guess what, there 206 00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:33.039 are actual pieces of proof outside of the hosty thing, which I bring up 207 00:15:33.080 --> 00:15:35.039 all the time. When people say, oh, there was no destruction of 208 00:15:35.080 --> 00:15:41.000 evidence, I go, yeah, what about hosting? Because that's easily demonstrable 209 00:15:41.759 --> 00:15:45.960 he destroyed evidence. If Oswald wrote a note ahead of time, and he's 210 00:15:45.960 --> 00:15:50.080 your prime suspect. That's evidence in this case. I mean, anybody want 211 00:15:50.120 --> 00:15:52.679 to dispute that. I know you guys aren't going to dispute that, but 212 00:15:52.759 --> 00:15:56.480 I mean, I'm just saying, if that's your position as the official, 213 00:15:56.559 --> 00:16:00.039 you know position, you got a problem here because host destroyed evidence. But 214 00:16:02.200 --> 00:16:07.639 Carmine, you wrote an article which is based on some of these new files 215 00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:12.080 and interesting what you discovered there. So I'd love for you to talk about 216 00:16:12.080 --> 00:16:18.840 that a bit before we get into some other issues here. Okay, Yeah, 217 00:16:18.879 --> 00:16:22.440 So initially when I was, you know, I was talking to Mike. 218 00:16:22.480 --> 00:16:26.919 I've been writing articles on my website but also for Mike's website for the 219 00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:30.080 Wall Street Window, and we're trying to come up with, you know, 220 00:16:30.279 --> 00:16:34.399 just we didn't want to As I was looking through and Mike was looking through 221 00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:38.240 the new files, we didn't want to just put out the same stuff that 222 00:16:38.279 --> 00:16:41.799 ever, because a lot of them are re releases with a little bit less 223 00:16:41.840 --> 00:16:44.919 redaction, which on some of my pages I updated stuff to keep it, 224 00:16:44.960 --> 00:16:48.960 you know, current twenty twenty three, but some of the files are actually 225 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:53.279 new, and one that I came across that actually got some people that I 226 00:16:53.440 --> 00:16:57.559 was surprisingly even you know, some of the minor media paid attention, and 227 00:16:57.639 --> 00:17:02.240 some of the people you know, like you know that we've talked to before, 228 00:17:02.279 --> 00:17:06.880 like Jefferson Morley and James D. Junior and others actually put it out 229 00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:10.640 there, which I thought was pretty cool. But because I think it escaped 230 00:17:10.839 --> 00:17:12.759 the mainstream media, like you were saying, Paul Landers, the story was 231 00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:18.839 top of the bill for so long that they didn't hear about what the DA 232 00:17:18.960 --> 00:17:22.720 had done. And for those who don't know, the DA is the Defense 233 00:17:22.759 --> 00:17:29.240 Intelligence Agency and it was created in the early sixties and it was basically the 234 00:17:29.799 --> 00:17:33.519 clearing house for all military intelligence, so the Army, Navy, Air Force, 235 00:17:33.599 --> 00:17:37.039 Marines. Right, And since we don't have Larry here, let me 236 00:17:37.240 --> 00:17:41.119 provide a little bit of context because at the time when John F. Kennedy's 237 00:17:41.119 --> 00:17:48.440 administration was struggling to communicate properly with the CIA, which you know, if 238 00:17:48.519 --> 00:17:51.640 you think about it, the CIA should have been the clearinghouse for like all 239 00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:55.920 of the intelligence, right. Yeah, that's why they made it, that's 240 00:17:56.119 --> 00:17:59.000 what it did. Well, it was supposed to be the central intelligence. 241 00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:03.279 But anyway, he was having trouble there. He was transferring responsibilities over to 242 00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:08.000 the DIA. He was doing that at the time when he was still alive, 243 00:18:08.200 --> 00:18:12.519 Okay, and his brother was involved in that. Now am I saying 244 00:18:12.519 --> 00:18:17.400 that the DIA is involved in the assassination? New New? But what I 245 00:18:17.440 --> 00:18:22.519 am saying is that they are not minor players here in that his struggles with 246 00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:26.039 the intelligence business, so to speak, were ongoing, and he was turning 247 00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:33.240 over responsibilities to them, because consolidating military intelligence with the Defense Intelligence Agency sort 248 00:18:33.240 --> 00:18:38.359 of makes sense, especially if you're having trouble controlling your central intelligence agency, 249 00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:41.960 right, this would be one way of parsing it out. Okay, So 250 00:18:42.039 --> 00:18:45.680 what do we do with the civilian operations? Not sure yet, but at 251 00:18:45.759 --> 00:18:51.200 least we could centralize the military operations. This is what is apparent if you 252 00:18:51.279 --> 00:18:53.319 study what was going on then, and I think Mike you would agree with 253 00:18:53.359 --> 00:18:57.480 that, right, that was something that was ongoing even at the time of 254 00:18:57.519 --> 00:19:00.920 the assassination. It appeared to me, would would you agree with that? 255 00:19:02.599 --> 00:19:04.920 Yeah? I concur of what you're saying. Okay, No, I just 256 00:19:04.920 --> 00:19:07.480 want to make sure because again, if Larry was here, he would provide 257 00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:11.000 some context and I can't do it as well, but I'm gonna try. 258 00:19:11.960 --> 00:19:14.720 But there you go. So the DIA is an important player here. They're 259 00:19:14.759 --> 00:19:18.759 not just nobody. And it's also not the Office of Naval Intelligence on its 260 00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:22.759 own. It's not just you know, air Force intelligence, Army intelligence. 261 00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:29.079 No, this is all of this stuff is supposed to be centralized, right 262 00:19:29.319 --> 00:19:34.559 again, a clearing house for the military intelligence. Okay, Defense Intelligence Agency 263 00:19:34.759 --> 00:19:38.319 sort of makes sense when they name things that way. I mean, government 264 00:19:38.359 --> 00:19:41.519 does that once in a while, they actually name things what they are. 265 00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:47.359 So with that in mind, though, you would think that they might have 266 00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:52.160 some angles on people that were former military, that were oh wait a minute, 267 00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:57.279 the prime suspect he was former military, huh, and had worked well 268 00:19:57.400 --> 00:20:02.000 somewhere in the intelligence court because he was involved with the U two, et 269 00:20:02.079 --> 00:20:04.440 cetera. Again, I'm not making this guy into James Bond because my name 270 00:20:04.480 --> 00:20:10.279 made Judy. Sorry. Anyways, point is, though, Carmine, that 271 00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:15.680 this would be a place where some information might have been oh, I don't 272 00:20:15.720 --> 00:20:18.519 know, gathered. It would make sense at that time, wouldn't it. 273 00:20:21.319 --> 00:20:26.680 Well, And what happened was was basically an exponential growth rate with the DA, 274 00:20:26.039 --> 00:20:30.720 kind of like what happened with the CIA. It exponentially grew in years 275 00:20:30.799 --> 00:20:33.839 that since its creation. So I actually talked to Larry a little bit about 276 00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:40.200 this, because there are multiple interpretations you can have of the ultimate results of 277 00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:45.119 what happens here. But because we have so little specifics, we can only 278 00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:48.680 go off of and I, you know, I'm only willing to go off 279 00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:52.240 of what evidence we have. So the DIA gets created in sixty one by 280 00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:57.160 McNamara and he creates them, and I think it's just a few dozen, 281 00:20:57.839 --> 00:21:00.599 less than a few dozen. I think might be like twenty five people. 282 00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:07.480 Is the original little cell of people that are the Defense Intelligence Agency from each 283 00:21:07.480 --> 00:21:11.640 of the military agencies. And what people don't understand is that the military agencies 284 00:21:11.720 --> 00:21:15.799 argued with everyone, even amongst themselves, as far as who had control over 285 00:21:15.880 --> 00:21:21.200 intelligence in certain arenas, Like the earliest even before the CIA existed, when 286 00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:25.160 Donovan was in charge of the OSS, he was always arguing with the Joint 287 00:21:25.240 --> 00:21:27.599 Chiefs about what the power of the OSS was, what it extended to, 288 00:21:27.759 --> 00:21:33.079 what theaters they were allowed to operate, And like MacArthur didn't want the OSS 289 00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:37.000 operating in his part of the Pacific. That's why they were constrained to China 290 00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:44.000 in other areas right, and these territorial disputes actually occur in the intelligence community 291 00:21:44.200 --> 00:21:48.559 all the time. The FBI argues with the CIA about what their policing responsibilities 292 00:21:48.599 --> 00:21:52.400 are. I mean, and we have the FBI, which is the Federal 293 00:21:52.440 --> 00:21:56.960 Bureau of Investigation with all these sorts of foreign offices. It metastasizes into different 294 00:21:56.960 --> 00:22:03.319 things as time goes on. Not only does the bureaucracy grow, but the 295 00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:06.920 reach of these agencies, the activities of these agencies. We talked about it 296 00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:08.440 not just the stuff that's off the books, but the stuff that's even on 297 00:22:08.519 --> 00:22:12.039 the books. Anyway, I think it's all important that. Yeah, you're 298 00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:17.519 right, there's lots of ways to interpret the exponential growth of the DA. 299 00:22:17.880 --> 00:22:22.079 Okay, so what do we know from the evidence? Good. So basically 300 00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:29.359 by the end of the sixties, the DA is thousands of people, right, 301 00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:33.000 it is by the middle hundreds. So we go from twenty five to 302 00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:40.000 hundreds to thousands to today currently it's four thousand people right roughly. The Okay, 303 00:22:40.039 --> 00:22:42.960 so they're collecting all the intelligence for the military, which only the military 304 00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:45.559 has access to. That's something else that we need to keep in mind. 305 00:22:45.960 --> 00:22:52.039 The CIA gets intelligence from its military assets, that's true, but it doesn't 306 00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:56.319 have the upper level military intelligence that the Joint chiefs and others will see, 307 00:22:56.559 --> 00:23:00.680 and that isn't always shared, just like the CIA does. We share its 308 00:23:00.680 --> 00:23:08.279 intelligence product with the military. Right, So what happened was is and I 309 00:23:08.440 --> 00:23:14.200 just it. People always, as we've talked before, always seem to focus 310 00:23:14.240 --> 00:23:18.200 on the CIA and the FBI as if the other sixteen plus agencies don't exist. 311 00:23:19.359 --> 00:23:22.480 You know, they've always said the killers must be from there in most 312 00:23:22.519 --> 00:23:27.559 assassination cases, whether there's RFKMLKJFK, Now, they've always said that it had 313 00:23:27.559 --> 00:23:33.279 to be the others that you know, we're responsible for the cover up or 314 00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:37.519 you know, destroyed the most files. Well it turns out they were wrong. 315 00:23:37.480 --> 00:23:41.400 Well, now the CIA destroyed a lot of files instead of the FBI, 316 00:23:41.559 --> 00:23:45.279 but they can't touch the DA. Well, and here's the funny part, 317 00:23:45.319 --> 00:23:48.319 like, look who's involved in the cover up all of them? But 318 00:23:49.480 --> 00:23:52.720 now you know, like you said, though, people focus on the CIA, 319 00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:59.119 FBI and don't bother to look at the rest of the field. Has 320 00:23:59.119 --> 00:24:02.720 another good one essay is the great one in my mind, because they're supposed 321 00:24:02.759 --> 00:24:07.680 to be monitoring communications and I'm thinking to myself, if there was any sort 322 00:24:07.720 --> 00:24:10.759 of covert communications that people were trying to, you know, keep out of 323 00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:15.359 people's reach. The NSA was supposed to know about it, okay, especially 324 00:24:15.400 --> 00:24:18.559 if it involved anybody foreign in any way, you know, much like that 325 00:24:18.799 --> 00:24:22.640 what is that History Channel series tries to hang it on some sort of Russian 326 00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:26.559 plot nowadays, you know, and things like this, okay, which I 327 00:24:26.599 --> 00:24:32.319 don't buy either, But point is back to it. The NSA doesn't say 328 00:24:32.440 --> 00:24:36.599 much. Now. They did add some files that weren't even scheduled for release 329 00:24:37.160 --> 00:24:42.079 in these releases, which I found fascinating. But this is not as fascinating 330 00:24:42.119 --> 00:24:45.160 as what you're gonna tell us about. And what you said is that and 331 00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:49.440 here was your statement. I love it. They can't even touch what the 332 00:24:49.480 --> 00:24:55.359 DEA did with destruction of evidence, the FBI and the CIA. We don't 333 00:24:55.400 --> 00:24:59.039 know what the NSA had. It's pretty much like like I brought up the 334 00:24:59.680 --> 00:25:04.359 you know, the Congressional Committee, the Council on American Activities, right how, 335 00:25:04.359 --> 00:25:07.480 we don't have those files, so I don't know the extent of surveillance 336 00:25:07.519 --> 00:25:11.519 they had on people, etc. I brought that up last night during the 337 00:25:11.599 --> 00:25:17.799 FDR discussion because of his war on the Bill of Rights. David Beatos book 338 00:25:17.799 --> 00:25:22.880 which is actually really good and discussed that last night. There's certain unknown still 339 00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:29.119 to the public. But this is fascinating to me because what do you mean 340 00:25:29.119 --> 00:25:33.559 the DEIA destroyed more evidence than the CIA and the FBI. Car Mine explained 341 00:25:33.559 --> 00:25:40.680 that. So what happened was is over the years, as I'm sure the 342 00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:45.799 other agencies did, they amassed evidence on various topics, including of course the 343 00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:55.039 JFK case, and none of the investigators, the Warren Commission, Church Committee, 344 00:25:55.279 --> 00:26:00.000 no one up until the How Select Committee had thought we asked the DA 345 00:26:02.559 --> 00:26:06.079 and see what files they might have, because they have all the military files, 346 00:26:06.319 --> 00:26:08.079 so at the very least they're going to have something on Oswald in the 347 00:26:08.119 --> 00:26:11.480 early years that we might not have seen, or maybe they have some chatter 348 00:26:12.359 --> 00:26:17.480 over, you know, a plot here, just something that might have contributed 349 00:26:17.519 --> 00:26:22.759 to the historical relevancy of the case. So the House Select Committee investigators asked 350 00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:26.640 the DA, can we have all of your files, just like they requested 351 00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:30.759 the CIA and everybody else. And you know, the most famous ones are 352 00:26:30.759 --> 00:26:36.079 the exchanges, and I personally enjoy them just because I love watching officials go 353 00:26:36.200 --> 00:26:41.079 back and forth like school children. Sometimes, like when Scott Breckenridge and the 354 00:26:41.240 --> 00:26:45.640 HCA staff would go back and forth like with you know, angry letters to 355 00:26:45.720 --> 00:26:49.400 each other over access to certain things. So anyway, so they send the 356 00:26:49.480 --> 00:26:56.759 DA this request and a gentleman named Roger Denk from the DA responds to them 357 00:26:57.200 --> 00:27:03.559 that they cannot provide any any tennedy material to them because they destroyed it all 358 00:27:03.559 --> 00:27:08.720 prior. That's it, not when, not how much, which, if 359 00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:12.960 you want to go on the conservative side, thousands of files, if you 360 00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:18.720 want to go on they didn't do it until before the HCA, tens of 361 00:27:18.759 --> 00:27:22.680 thousands of files, and that's still conservative if you look at the numbers produced 362 00:27:22.680 --> 00:27:26.680 by the CIA NFI. Now this is the entire military, right, that's 363 00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:30.640 a lot of people. So that means the Office of Naval Intelligence, which 364 00:27:30.680 --> 00:27:33.680 people would say, well, there must be stuff on Oswald in the Office 365 00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:40.440 of Naval Intelligence at least, right just I guess if there was anybody else 366 00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:45.480 involved who had any sort of military connections here, the DEIA should have had 367 00:27:45.519 --> 00:27:48.000 all this stuff, plus should have had the MG two, should have had 368 00:27:48.160 --> 00:27:52.359 the Marines should have had every file that they could have wanted as far as 369 00:27:52.440 --> 00:27:56.720 military goes, which, by the way, the Marines have these special little 370 00:27:56.799 --> 00:27:59.920 units that collect intelligence and then submitted back and it ends up with the old 371 00:28:00.200 --> 00:28:03.799 because they are under the O and I okay, far as I can tell, 372 00:28:04.799 --> 00:28:07.720 so you'd figure that that stuff would eventually track back to and this would 373 00:28:07.720 --> 00:28:11.960 be again the whole of the military, right, the Defense Intelligence Agency, 374 00:28:11.000 --> 00:28:15.720 This should be all of their intelligence. Yeah, even something that is benign. 375 00:28:15.720 --> 00:28:18.640 It is just the discussions of the Joint chiefs of what they said after 376 00:28:18.680 --> 00:28:22.440 it happened. There you have it. Now, what's funny to me is 377 00:28:22.759 --> 00:28:29.119 that this was never brought up when the you know, the Assassination Records Review 378 00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:33.759 Board was in session. That I remember because I mean, according to all 379 00:28:33.799 --> 00:28:37.039 the stuff I read, I didn't see them discussing the destruction of files with 380 00:28:37.079 --> 00:28:40.400 the DIA. I don't think they knew. I don't think they knew either. 381 00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:45.640 Yeah, which kind of like Joiny these with the HCA. Yeah, 382 00:28:45.240 --> 00:28:48.480 now that he had ran the dire And meanwhile, by the way, when 383 00:28:48.519 --> 00:28:52.519 you're talking about they're declaring that they destroyed all these files, what year did 384 00:28:52.519 --> 00:28:56.960 they declare that to the HSCA. It couldn't have been I was thinking it 385 00:28:57.000 --> 00:29:00.839 was seventy eight, and yeah, couldn't be any later than seventy eight, 386 00:29:00.920 --> 00:29:06.480 because they concluded their work in seventy nine, and I think preliminary work started 387 00:29:06.519 --> 00:29:11.559 in what seventy six? So yeah, right, I mean there's your pocket 388 00:29:11.599 --> 00:29:15.680 of time where they would have been sent to request and then responded in seventy 389 00:29:15.720 --> 00:29:18.160 eight. Who knows, maybe they sent it to him in seventy seven initially. 390 00:29:18.559 --> 00:29:22.759 Either way, By nineteen seventy eight, which is only fifteen years later, 391 00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:29.039 the DEA says, we destroyed all this stuff. Yeah not why not? 392 00:29:29.119 --> 00:29:33.000 Who gave the order? Nothing? It was just seriously almost like eight 393 00:29:33.880 --> 00:29:37.079 auto response. I mean no, no, far sorry, we don't have 394 00:29:37.160 --> 00:29:41.720 anything you're looking for that's destroyed. Have no no lame excuse, like you 395 00:29:41.759 --> 00:29:45.880 know, we're making space, we were transferring things over to the digital or 396 00:29:47.599 --> 00:29:49.839 exactly. Yes, they didn't give the Mexico City. Well we had to 397 00:29:49.920 --> 00:29:53.200 use those tapes again, so we had to tape over the old tapes. 398 00:29:53.200 --> 00:29:56.880 And it just so happened with the Oswald tapes. Yeah, I mean we 399 00:29:56.920 --> 00:30:00.319 had to reuse the tapes, you know, I don't know we record over 400 00:30:00.359 --> 00:30:03.680 the vhs no, none of that, just nope, gone, we just 401 00:30:03.759 --> 00:30:08.680 tried it. Now what like you know, as somebody who has been familiar 402 00:30:08.680 --> 00:30:12.000 with this kind of stuff for a while. Also, what were your thoughts 403 00:30:12.039 --> 00:30:17.319 when you read that? Because I was I found that remarkable. What did 404 00:30:17.359 --> 00:30:23.880 you think of that when you read that? I mean, it is pretty 405 00:30:23.880 --> 00:30:32.960 crazy. I mean, I mean the Defense Intelligence Agency, I mean today 406 00:30:33.519 --> 00:30:40.039 it's it's gigantic, right. So well, because here's the thing he said, 407 00:30:40.079 --> 00:30:41.559 it started with twenty five people. Now you're looking at you know, 408 00:30:41.599 --> 00:30:47.319 three four thousand people. It's even I think it's actually bigger than that. 409 00:30:47.680 --> 00:30:51.279 It should be larger than that. It's And the other thing is with force 410 00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:53.720 multipliers, Mike, you're not now talking about guys that are sitting there doing 411 00:30:53.759 --> 00:30:59.160 mimeographs, okay, and making xerox copies. You're talking about people that are 412 00:30:59.200 --> 00:31:02.200 able to work with high tech digital stuff, which means they can do it 413 00:31:02.279 --> 00:31:06.039 much faster. That means that you're talking about, I mean, an exponential 414 00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:10.440 group of people with exponential technology. They should be able to work faster, 415 00:31:10.599 --> 00:31:15.240 harder, and be able to consolidate intelligence quicker than they ever could. And 416 00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:18.000 yet it's still growing. So I mean, yeah, go ahead. I 417 00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:21.640 mean, what are your other thoughts about this? Because to me, it's 418 00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:26.160 like, wow, that's crazy. Fifteen years later they destroyed all this guaranteed 419 00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:30.519 by then they did when they didn't know exactly what. Yeah, but yeah, 420 00:31:30.559 --> 00:31:40.519 I mean, let mean read you something. It's pretty strange unusual on 421 00:31:40.640 --> 00:31:47.759 Wikipedia. Okay, the da Let me back up for a second. This 422 00:31:47.799 --> 00:31:52.039 is a little bit of a detour. But one interesting little signe note to 423 00:31:52.079 --> 00:32:00.480 this is that the DEA was founded by an Air Force general named James Carroll. 424 00:32:01.400 --> 00:32:07.960 Now, he actually was started out in the government as an FBI agent, 425 00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:16.359 a counterintelligence agent, and like security agent was his specialty, and he 426 00:32:17.319 --> 00:32:22.119 went in Then he moved into the Air Force kind of having the same duties, 427 00:32:22.680 --> 00:32:29.160 and then became in charge of security for the entire Air Force, basically 428 00:32:30.079 --> 00:32:37.160 before becoming the founder, the first head of the DEA under McNamara. As 429 00:32:37.240 --> 00:32:46.880 Karma mentioned now as a side note, he had a son named James Carroll. 430 00:32:47.440 --> 00:32:54.079 Okay, and he wrote a book about twenty years ago titled House of 431 00:32:54.200 --> 00:32:59.720 Ward, The Pentagon and the Disastrous Rise American Power. And I got the 432 00:32:59.720 --> 00:33:06.960 book, can read it, and that book it is like people talk about 433 00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:12.720 the Kenny assassination. For people to the James Douglas book if anyone wants to 434 00:33:12.720 --> 00:33:20.799 read you know about the National security state, the wars, how this whole 435 00:33:20.839 --> 00:33:24.160 system works. That is the one book I tell people to read. It's 436 00:33:24.200 --> 00:33:32.839 real fascinating, so and it's a it's a history basically, I think started 437 00:33:32.880 --> 00:33:39.279 a round covers World War Two up until maybe the end of the Cold War 438 00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:42.440 a little bit after. It's been a couple of years since I read it. 439 00:33:42.720 --> 00:33:49.680 But as to get even deeper into this, one thing the son noted 440 00:33:49.720 --> 00:33:53.000 in the book is that he grew up, you know, in his dad's 441 00:33:53.079 --> 00:34:00.799 house, and they lived right next to General Curtis le May their next door 442 00:34:00.799 --> 00:34:06.079 neighbors. And he's got a couple of little different, little personal stories. 443 00:34:06.440 --> 00:34:14.679 But when the Vietnam War was taking off, after the Kenny assassination, the 444 00:34:14.760 --> 00:34:19.639 son became again. He turned against the war, became a demonstrator, became 445 00:34:19.760 --> 00:34:25.000 very religious, and the father and son had a split over that. Now 446 00:34:27.320 --> 00:34:32.920 the name the father Joseph Carroll. This is kind of bizarre. On Wikipedia, 447 00:34:35.199 --> 00:34:40.159 I've never seen an entry that says this, but says controversy. First 448 00:34:40.159 --> 00:34:46.000 Amendment rights helped produce some of the most curious non fiction literature. One of 449 00:34:46.079 --> 00:34:53.559 the most dismissed projects within the world's eleven twenty twenty two community even among those 450 00:34:53.559 --> 00:35:01.679 who believe in conspiracy, was entitled Nomenclature on Assassination Cabal, written by in 451 00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:09.719 nineteen seventy by Texan who not uses a name quite widely circulated within that eleven 452 00:35:09.800 --> 00:35:16.280 two community. Is author William Torbitt, used the name Joseph Francis Carroll on 453 00:35:16.400 --> 00:35:22.239 eight occasions in the project, thereby implicating him as being in command of the 454 00:35:22.280 --> 00:35:30.719 Defense Intelligence Age Sheet while it was underlings within the Defense Industrial Security Command assisted 455 00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:37.079 in bringing about the assassination. That document and I've read it. I got 456 00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:40.960 it now somewhere. Yeah, I've got a copy somewhere to you. It 457 00:35:42.159 --> 00:35:47.800 basically says Carol was the planner, mastermind, mechanic of the assassination. I 458 00:35:47.840 --> 00:35:52.239 don't believe any of that. Now. You might see that published somewhere as 459 00:35:52.360 --> 00:35:57.920 NASA Nazis in the JFK assassination the Torbett document, which is later on, 460 00:35:58.679 --> 00:36:02.559 Yeah, later on, but it was a long circulated, underground sort of 461 00:36:04.159 --> 00:36:08.280 monograph for the longest time. And yeah, it does indicate this guy, 462 00:36:09.039 --> 00:36:14.360 implicate excuse me, this this person that we're talking about here, which is 463 00:36:14.360 --> 00:36:21.880 really strange because most legitimate researchers eventually dismissed this thing as ridiculous, which I 464 00:36:21.920 --> 00:36:27.679 did, you know, because it involves this whole thing about NASA and Johnson's 465 00:36:27.679 --> 00:36:31.079 involvement with NASA is somehow important, and the FBI is involved in the assassination 466 00:36:31.199 --> 00:36:36.639 directly. And I mean it's bad, it's pretty bad. It's probably some 467 00:36:36.760 --> 00:36:39.559 sort of red hairry. Yeah, it's clearly something that was laid out there, 468 00:36:39.639 --> 00:36:44.679 that was custom made for the time when I think it was initially distributed 469 00:36:44.719 --> 00:36:49.719 in the late seventies, I believe early seventies, early seventies. It is 470 00:36:49.800 --> 00:36:52.400 after the Garrison Trial. I mean it names a lot of figures in the 471 00:36:52.480 --> 00:36:57.239 g you know, surrounding the Garrison Trial, or are named in it, 472 00:36:58.159 --> 00:37:00.840 like the UFO guy. What's up up? Get his name? We talked 473 00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:02.679 about him on your show. Oh yeah, no, absolutely, But there's 474 00:37:02.679 --> 00:37:07.559 a whole bunch of it. It's almost irrelevant because it's just it's this ridiculous 475 00:37:07.599 --> 00:37:10.920 sort of like catch all of stuff that was popular at a certain point. 476 00:37:12.119 --> 00:37:15.079 Which is funny because again, when I was a teenager and got into this 477 00:37:15.159 --> 00:37:20.039 case, that was one of the first things I acquired was this Torbet document. 478 00:37:20.119 --> 00:37:22.679 Right, it was like the underground the insider scoop, you know, 479 00:37:22.360 --> 00:37:27.119 still even in the eighties. All right, So like here's another fifteen year 480 00:37:27.159 --> 00:37:30.559 time period, fifteen years probably after this thing first hit you know, the 481 00:37:30.599 --> 00:37:35.079 streets. I'm getting it in my hands, and people talked about this all 482 00:37:35.079 --> 00:37:38.880 the way through the nineties, I know for sure. But it's one of 483 00:37:38.920 --> 00:37:44.760 those widely distributed and now fully discredited pieces of work. And again, you 484 00:37:44.760 --> 00:37:47.400 know, much like the odds sort of, you know, the Roger Craig 485 00:37:47.480 --> 00:37:51.800 thing at a certain point, there's a whole bunch of stuff out there that's 486 00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:55.079 been like, we can't prove who authored this, but you know, and 487 00:37:55.159 --> 00:38:00.400 it's out there. But anyway, that's true. That's pretty strange, and 488 00:38:00.039 --> 00:38:06.360 I forget the point you were making about this. It just that's okay. 489 00:38:06.360 --> 00:38:12.800 But but that's it's to suggest, you know that for them to destroy all 490 00:38:12.880 --> 00:38:15.920 you know, he he probably is the one that ordered the destruction of all 491 00:38:15.920 --> 00:38:21.639 these documents. So it's yeah, because because we don't have the exact time 492 00:38:21.639 --> 00:38:25.800 period, but he has the longest period of being running the agency during which 493 00:38:25.800 --> 00:38:30.679 it could have occurred, because he was in charge until sixty nine. Yeah, 494 00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:34.199 and nobody else was in charge as long as he was so chances are 495 00:38:34.239 --> 00:38:40.079 they were destroyed under Carol. Why is certainly a question that he I mean, 496 00:38:40.119 --> 00:38:45.280 this is the biggest evidentiary destruction in the case. They destroyed everything. 497 00:38:45.320 --> 00:38:51.440 Nobody destroyed everything besides the DA. That's like the CIA. We choot on 498 00:38:51.519 --> 00:38:54.000 them for how long? Because thirty of Oswald's documents are missing from his two 499 00:38:54.039 --> 00:39:00.559 to one file that has millions of documents of them, right right, No, 500 00:39:00.639 --> 00:39:01.639 I mean, it's it's insane to think of it. I mean, 501 00:39:01.960 --> 00:39:06.519 and here's the fact, we don't even know the number of files destroyed. 502 00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:10.000 It's got to be between, like I said, thousands to tens of thousands, 503 00:39:10.719 --> 00:39:15.559 minimally. By sixty nine, they're operating at least with a thousand people. 504 00:39:15.039 --> 00:39:20.679 They're generating so much paper at that point that they've got tens of thousands 505 00:39:20.719 --> 00:39:23.480 of files about whether I'm not saying, you know, it's all exactly about 506 00:39:23.480 --> 00:39:28.239 the Kennedy case, but it's about Oswald. It's about Oswald's younger years. 507 00:39:28.280 --> 00:39:31.199 It's about anyone who knew Oswald and the military. It's about who JFK and 508 00:39:31.239 --> 00:39:34.760 the military. Well, let me ask you this question, because you wrote 509 00:39:34.760 --> 00:39:37.920 this article, do you know how long the search was conducted. Because here's 510 00:39:37.920 --> 00:39:40.599 the thing. You make a request to an agency, right then they have 511 00:39:40.679 --> 00:39:45.320 to conduct a search before they're supposed to tell you there's nothing there. So 512 00:39:45.360 --> 00:39:50.280 they had to have conducted a search according to the fact that it was requested 513 00:39:50.360 --> 00:39:54.440 right to say we don't have anything. Well, let me get you're go 514 00:39:54.480 --> 00:40:01.519 ahead, I've got something to say after you talk, are Well, what 515 00:40:01.559 --> 00:40:04.559 do you think? What do you think the time period was or do you 516 00:40:04.639 --> 00:40:07.400 know the time period between when the request was made and when the answer was 517 00:40:07.400 --> 00:40:10.800 given, because that would give us an idea a time frame for how long 518 00:40:10.840 --> 00:40:15.440 a search could have been conducted. Well, I'm still looking for other documents 519 00:40:15.519 --> 00:40:19.760 that link to this one. This is the only one, the only one 520 00:40:19.800 --> 00:40:24.159 that mentions in any way the request or the destruction. Well, that's weird 521 00:40:24.360 --> 00:40:28.840 too, isn't it, Because look, well I think the HSCA, yeah, 522 00:40:28.960 --> 00:40:31.880 must have. I'm shocked that because there were some real fire brands in 523 00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:37.239 the staff. I'm shocked that nobody said anything to the press quietly, but 524 00:40:37.320 --> 00:40:39.079 maybe they didn't know. Maybe it was kept just to the top levels of 525 00:40:39.159 --> 00:40:45.840 the Well, there's a line in the there's an interesting line in the HCA 526 00:40:45.039 --> 00:40:52.159 report. I'd have to grab it and read it to you. But it 527 00:40:52.599 --> 00:41:00.960 doesn't say anything of it the DEA, but it says something like it casts 528 00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:07.320 a dispersion on Army intelligence, saying I have to grab it, And that 529 00:41:07.360 --> 00:41:13.119 would make total sense in this instance because would Yeah, well, one thing 530 00:41:13.159 --> 00:41:17.960 about what I was going to say is it's the d i A. You 531 00:41:19.000 --> 00:41:22.599 know, people cared us and even if you research this stuff, you know, 532 00:41:23.400 --> 00:41:30.320 you don't what is it exactly doing. What's the purpose of it. 533 00:41:30.519 --> 00:41:37.800 So, as you mentioned, McNamara formed it in nineteen sixty one, and 534 00:41:37.840 --> 00:41:42.360 they did it after the Bay of Pigs. There is a period of time 535 00:41:43.119 --> 00:41:51.360 where Kennedy made changes under you know, McNamara did under his direction, and 536 00:41:51.639 --> 00:41:59.159 they distrusted the Central Intelligence Agency and this was created as a result of it. 537 00:41:59.239 --> 00:42:06.320 But what the CIA does is it's supposed to answer to the President and 538 00:42:06.360 --> 00:42:12.000 the Cabinet and assists them directly. I mean, that's what the Central Toesis 539 00:42:12.039 --> 00:42:23.519 Agency was formed to do. And it's supposed to you know, analyze just 540 00:42:23.800 --> 00:42:30.440 collected intelligence. Yeah, on what it's asked to do or specific issues like 541 00:42:30.559 --> 00:42:36.480 for example, maybe you know, I'm sure they are analyzing the personality of 542 00:42:36.519 --> 00:42:44.119 Vladimir Putin this kind of you know, the headlines of the you know what 543 00:42:44.159 --> 00:42:50.280 we all think intelligence is what you know. The DA was different though, 544 00:42:50.320 --> 00:42:57.440 It's its purpose was and is not to answer directly to the President in the 545 00:42:57.480 --> 00:43:04.239 White House, but to are to the Secretary Defense, the joint use of 546 00:43:04.320 --> 00:43:13.159 status and the different you know, commanders across across the world, and so 547 00:43:13.239 --> 00:43:22.199 its focus is really on the military and the military capabilities of enemies or adversaries 548 00:43:22.280 --> 00:43:28.960 or people were at war with military intelligence, the battle of order and this 549 00:43:29.079 --> 00:43:35.599 sort of business. So back in the sixties, I'm certain that during Kennedy's 550 00:43:35.639 --> 00:43:39.519 time, they would be monitoring the Cuban embassy get you know, a lot 551 00:43:39.599 --> 00:43:45.400 of the information is probably duplicate. They're probably getting all the NSA traffic about 552 00:43:45.480 --> 00:43:52.199 Cuba and problem. Maybe they're mind you know, monitoring the Cuban exiles, 553 00:43:52.280 --> 00:44:00.199 and they certainly be monitored in embassies of just like the NSA does so so 554 00:44:00.840 --> 00:44:07.800 they you know, what would be what was destroyed duplicate information that other agencies 555 00:44:07.840 --> 00:44:15.519 have. But also perhaps the reaction of foreign leaders to this assassination, The 556 00:44:15.559 --> 00:44:22.519 movement of military forces around the world is a reaction to the assassination or a 557 00:44:22.599 --> 00:44:27.119 lack thereof and maybe what some of the Cuban exiles are up to. I'm 558 00:44:27.159 --> 00:44:31.480 just speculating, but yeah, but oh, I would think all that would 559 00:44:31.480 --> 00:44:36.119 be in there. And like I said, the reactions not only of foreign 560 00:44:36.159 --> 00:44:39.000 governments but are internally some of our own military leaders. Well, and there's 561 00:44:39.079 --> 00:44:44.519 a guarantee there were meetings that happened after JFK was assassinating, and strategically there's 562 00:44:44.519 --> 00:44:46.239 no reason not to keep track of what allied forces are doing as well. 563 00:44:46.960 --> 00:44:51.480 Oh yeah, you know, just to say, and I'm just thinking off 564 00:44:51.519 --> 00:44:53.440 the top of my head here that you know, ex military guys who might 565 00:44:53.480 --> 00:44:59.920 be I don't know, attempting to defect. Yeah, you know, my 566 00:45:00.239 --> 00:45:04.119 also be of interest to the day. They might have had collected files on 567 00:45:04.159 --> 00:45:07.119 that there might be more information on that circumstance, not just a guy named 568 00:45:07.119 --> 00:45:10.320 Oswald, but others who What I think we can do too is we can 569 00:45:10.360 --> 00:45:14.840 compare it to what other agencies when other agencies destroyed things, Why did they 570 00:45:14.880 --> 00:45:17.639 do it? The CIA destroyed things sometimes about the assassinated, about assassination programs, 571 00:45:17.639 --> 00:45:23.519 and about the Castro exiles anti Castro exiles because it made them look bad, 572 00:45:23.559 --> 00:45:28.159 because it made the opportunity that they might have financed people who could have 573 00:45:28.159 --> 00:45:30.719 gone off the rails and done something. To me, that's a pretty good 574 00:45:31.559 --> 00:45:36.679 reason. Maybe why did they get rid of some files? Well there's that 575 00:45:36.840 --> 00:45:40.039 plus you know, look the benign explanation, right, why would you destroy 576 00:45:40.079 --> 00:45:43.360 other stuff? Well, you don't want to look like you missed it. 577 00:45:43.480 --> 00:45:45.800 Let's just say you do believe in the whole Oswald thing. Well, how 578 00:45:45.800 --> 00:45:50.840 the hell did the FBI not know this? They had somebody following them around. 579 00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:52.000 How the hell did did this one not know it? How the hell 580 00:45:52.039 --> 00:45:55.079 did that one not know it? If you believe in the lone nut theory, 581 00:45:57.559 --> 00:46:00.920 there's all kinds of problems here. A lot of cya has to happen, 582 00:46:01.239 --> 00:46:04.559 because, yeah, you don't want to be seen as the people that 583 00:46:04.679 --> 00:46:07.639 missed this. I mean, just the fact that we know that Hoover turns 584 00:46:07.679 --> 00:46:12.679 around and drops that you know, uh emergency kind of flash warning on Oswald's 585 00:46:12.719 --> 00:46:17.559 name just before the assassination doesn't look good. You know, now, what 586 00:46:17.639 --> 00:46:22.400 about the d IA guess what we don't know? Right? Be good? 587 00:46:22.440 --> 00:46:25.559 I'm sorry, Mike, go ahead, No God, I'm just chuckling. 588 00:46:25.960 --> 00:46:30.320 Yeah, I was gonna say, and and that I think is not only 589 00:46:30.360 --> 00:46:35.840 the mystery, but the importance of the document is because it shows that just 590 00:46:35.920 --> 00:46:40.039 wholesale destruction of evidence without concern for anyone. I mean, I believe the 591 00:46:40.119 --> 00:46:45.800 quote is this is what Denk said back to the HCA, that the DA 592 00:46:45.119 --> 00:46:49.920 had quote destroyed all of its files which might be related to the assassination, 593 00:46:50.079 --> 00:46:55.079 that therefore had nothing to offer nothing doing. That's it. We sorry, 594 00:46:55.159 --> 00:47:01.519 we burned everything down. Good luck, fine stuff elsewhere. And the funny 595 00:47:01.519 --> 00:47:05.880 thing is that you mean to tell me that there was no because you're supposed 596 00:47:05.920 --> 00:47:08.440 to keep a document when you destroy documents too, you know, as far 597 00:47:08.480 --> 00:47:13.320 as I know, I think that's like just one of those general conventions where 598 00:47:13.360 --> 00:47:16.199 if you destroy a document, you're supposed to note it somewhere. Uh. 599 00:47:16.239 --> 00:47:22.960 Nothing, Just we don't have anything. That's that. I mean, that's 600 00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:25.920 where that lands. Look, I think we're gonna we're gonna come around and 601 00:47:25.960 --> 00:47:30.320 maybe take a break here, uh and get into a couple of other issues. 602 00:47:30.360 --> 00:47:32.360 So we're gonna go on the other side of the break, uh, 603 00:47:32.800 --> 00:47:37.159 which I think Mike has to run. So Mike, anything you want to 604 00:47:37.199 --> 00:47:40.079 add, sort them on your way out the door. Oh No, that 605 00:47:40.320 --> 00:47:45.000 just pro fascinating conversation, and I'll do have to go, but I'll be 606 00:47:45.079 --> 00:47:51.280 listening back get on the recording later on. Yeah, definitely you'll be interested 607 00:47:51.320 --> 00:47:52.679 in the next part of it, because Carmine's gonna stick with me for a 608 00:47:52.679 --> 00:47:57.239 few more minutes and we're gonna go over some other material here on the Ocelli 609 00:47:57.280 --> 00:48:00.760 effect. Stick around. You've expressed, my callers. Is there anyone else 610 00:48:00.800 --> 00:48:02.639 who happens to get on the air of jelly dot com who not necessarily reflected 611 00:48:02.679 --> 00:48:07.119 he views jelly dot com ord Chuck Chilly and we are not responsible for any 612 00:48:07.119 --> 00:49:28.679 stupidity which might ensued. Thank you. M going to Chuck o'chelly. Wall 613 00:49:28.840 --> 00:49:38.639 Street, Window dot go Silver, the stock market, wall Stream, window 614 00:49:38.840 --> 00:49:44.800 dot dot. Perhaps you're invested deeply, Perhaps you're not in deep enough. 615 00:49:44.960 --> 00:49:49.920 Maybe you're thinking about getting started Wall Street, Windows don com, do don 616 00:49:50.039 --> 00:49:53.719 com. Michael Swanson, the brilliant author of the War State, understood these 617 00:49:53.760 --> 00:49:58.599 trends professionally for many years, and now he gives you the benefit of his 618 00:49:58.800 --> 00:50:07.519 knowledge. Rallstream indo dot go there, now go there, now go there 619 00:50:07.599 --> 00:50:13.920 now. In Denial Secret Wars with air strikes and tanks by Larry Hancock. 620 00:50:14.719 --> 00:50:19.639 Secret wars became a staple of US covert operations and are still happening today. 621 00:50:19.920 --> 00:50:24.280 Larryhancock's book In Denial rips the cover off many of them, using new files 622 00:50:24.280 --> 00:50:29.039 that exposes things about the Bay and Pigs that no one has ever written about 623 00:50:29.079 --> 00:50:32.239 before. It shows why it really failed and why the United States did not 624 00:50:32.440 --> 00:50:37.320 earn from it. It also shows why other countries today are doing secret operations 625 00:50:37.360 --> 00:50:42.679 with more success. This is the book that puts what some want to deny 626 00:50:43.039 --> 00:50:49.440 into the light. In Denial secret wars with air strikes and tanks Larryhancock. 627 00:50:50.639 --> 00:50:53.960 For more information, go to Larry hyphen Hancock dot com. Pick up your 628 00:50:54.039 --> 00:50:59.679 copy of In Denial at Amazon dot com. In digital or physical, Quoat, 629 00:51:00.400 --> 00:51:06.039 The War State by Michael Swanson explains the great national transformation that took place 630 00:51:06.079 --> 00:51:09.599 and put the Kennedy presidency in the context of the times and revealed never before 631 00:51:09.639 --> 00:51:15.880 published information about the Cuban missile crisis. President Kennedy would not have been assassinated 632 00:51:15.920 --> 00:51:20.159 if he had been president two hundred years ago. His assassination took place in 633 00:51:20.199 --> 00:51:23.360 the context of the Cold War and the rise of the national security state before 634 00:51:23.400 --> 00:51:28.519 World War II. The United States was a continental republic. In the decade 635 00:51:28.519 --> 00:51:32.440 that followed it became an imperial superpower. Generals such as Curtis LeMay not only 636 00:51:32.480 --> 00:51:37.119 wanted to invade Cuba, but knew that there were short range missiles on the 637 00:51:37.119 --> 00:51:40.400 island Arn't with nuclear warheads that they could not destroy because they were on mobile 638 00:51:40.480 --> 00:51:45.880 launchers. Their invasion could have led to a Third World War, and they 639 00:51:45.920 --> 00:51:50.760 wanted to go to war anyway. The War State by Michael Swanson reveals why 640 00:51:50.840 --> 00:51:53.679 and will show you what President Kennedy was up against. For more information the 641 00:51:53.800 --> 00:51:58.880 Warstate dot com. Go ahead, Colin, I was just the truth about 642 00:51:58.920 --> 00:52:00.639 the das, right, Well, what do you want to know? Dy 643 00:52:00.679 --> 00:52:06.639 Baker's wild claim Oswald girlfriends he knew Ruby and Barry handswer weapons. Really, 644 00:52:06.760 --> 00:52:08.400 I imagine I could claim I have four wheels. It doesn't make me a 645 00:52:08.440 --> 00:52:12.719 wagon. But okay, Oswald was on the building, and I'm trying to 646 00:52:12.719 --> 00:52:15.920 prevent the leader of John Kennedy. Come on now, has a real effort 647 00:52:15.920 --> 00:52:21.920 on the day of hay assassination. Go to Amazon dot com enter Judith Baker 648 00:52:22.079 --> 00:52:24.559 in her own words. You'll get the results for a digital copy of a 649 00:52:24.599 --> 00:52:30.519 book where Walt Brown utilizes her own words and the known evidence in the case 650 00:52:30.639 --> 00:52:36.000 to get at well a different perspective. Let's say you can get Judithbary Baker 651 00:52:36.079 --> 00:52:39.440 in her own words from the author himself, signed if you request it by 652 00:52:39.639 --> 00:52:45.039 contacting doctor Brown at k I A s JFK at aol dot com. It's 653 00:52:45.079 --> 00:52:51.719 a fun book and it actually dissects the many, many fantastic claims Judith very 654 00:52:51.760 --> 00:52:55.320 Baker in her own words. Thank you for all the great information revelation through 655 00:52:55.360 --> 00:53:02.360 conversation, Shelley dot com, Radio net, oh Chili dot com revelation through 656 00:53:02.440 --> 00:53:15.079 conversation, Chuck O. Kelley. And if you know so many years applying 657 00:53:15.119 --> 00:53:20.599 the FK research, you're specializing against any Tellys Jacy involvement in multiple assassinations, 658 00:53:20.599 --> 00:53:27.840 PROPAGAIND and other global criminal operations in the twentieth and twenty first centuries. Yeah, 659 00:53:27.920 --> 00:53:37.519 and now less aggerated and met O Kelly. The second segment of this 660 00:53:37.760 --> 00:53:42.239 Thursday Night, O Chelli Effect is on now. Mike Swatson had to bow 661 00:53:42.280 --> 00:53:45.960 out, he had somewhere to be, but Carlin Sabastano's still with me and 662 00:53:45.000 --> 00:53:51.920 we're not done because there was one more subject to tackle here tonight uh. 663 00:53:51.960 --> 00:53:53.960 And if you did miss it, if you're just tuning it now for some 664 00:53:54.000 --> 00:53:57.920 reason or other, uh, whatever, you might want to go back and 665 00:53:57.920 --> 00:54:00.280 take a listen to what we had to say about Paul Landers, those interesting 666 00:54:00.320 --> 00:54:05.199 revelations, a few other things. Hey, how about the biggest piece of 667 00:54:05.239 --> 00:54:12.719 evidence destruction that we can demonstrate in the JFK case. Overall those things so 668 00:54:12.760 --> 00:54:15.960 far, so far. See you notice I restrain. I don't go ever 669 00:54:16.360 --> 00:54:20.880 know that's it. Ever, I never know because there could be something larger, 670 00:54:21.840 --> 00:54:27.599 because I did not imagine that we were gonna get you know that that 671 00:54:27.599 --> 00:54:30.440 that is, And that's pretty wild that it took this long, by the 672 00:54:30.440 --> 00:54:34.440 way, for that to come out. I stand by your point too, 673 00:54:34.840 --> 00:54:38.000 that it's pretty weird that there wasn't like a little leak that because there was 674 00:54:38.039 --> 00:54:42.800 other leaks to the press to try and get interest in the HSCA where it 675 00:54:42.880 --> 00:54:44.760 was like, hey, listen, you know what's going on over here. 676 00:54:45.159 --> 00:54:46.960 You know there's something about this you might want to you know, I mean, 677 00:54:47.039 --> 00:54:51.079 it seemed like somebody was shoving things over and I have a feeling I 678 00:54:51.079 --> 00:54:53.000 know who, but I have a feeling that, Yeah, Blakey and some 679 00:54:53.039 --> 00:54:57.679 of the others at the top were like, look like idiots. Yeah, 680 00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:02.119 you didn't do anything about an agency destroying all their files, so I think 681 00:55:02.159 --> 00:55:06.239 we need to bury this. Yeah, somebody said, oh wow, you 682 00:55:06.280 --> 00:55:09.159 know, let's make sure this doesn't really which is a good reason why it 683 00:55:09.239 --> 00:55:14.960 might be difficult to find the initial request, even because see somewhere there's a 684 00:55:14.960 --> 00:55:21.320 written request guaranteed a written request was transmitted in some way to the DA that 685 00:55:21.440 --> 00:55:24.719 said hey, can we have your files? Right? Yeah? And where 686 00:55:24.760 --> 00:55:29.400 is it? You see what I'm saying, like, yeah, and I'd 687 00:55:29.480 --> 00:55:31.360 love to hear the response. Well, and what did they say back after 688 00:55:31.400 --> 00:55:36.159 they said we'll destroyed everything? Well, the first thing is I'm thinking in 689 00:55:36.320 --> 00:55:39.119 order there should be a request, then all right, we'll conduct a search. 690 00:55:39.280 --> 00:55:44.400 We'll need this amount of time whatever. Okay, you know, same 691 00:55:44.440 --> 00:55:46.159 thing like they did when they went to the O n I with the ar 692 00:55:46.360 --> 00:55:50.840 RB. Because they went to the O n I and that whole thing. 693 00:55:50.840 --> 00:55:52.599 I mean, you heard about that, and then they turned around. The 694 00:55:52.599 --> 00:55:59.679 court martialed the record's liaison who went to actually to try and see if the 695 00:55:59.679 --> 00:56:04.159 ON I I had files on Oswald. Yeah, they got to conduct the 696 00:56:04.199 --> 00:56:07.960 search to see what they have. How did they automatically know this. They 697 00:56:07.000 --> 00:56:12.320 couldn't have automatically known it. They shouldn't have automatically known it. They couldn't 698 00:56:12.320 --> 00:56:15.960 have assumed it unless this was just you know, frontline office knowledge. Every 699 00:56:15.000 --> 00:56:19.320 secretary even knows we destroyed. Well, that's why I have a feeling that, 700 00:56:19.400 --> 00:56:22.840 Yeah, it might have occurred later than some people might think, because 701 00:56:23.480 --> 00:56:30.079 I think it occurred later in the timeline, because if it was early in 702 00:56:30.079 --> 00:56:34.280 the timeline, there was really no need to destroy the files. Yeah. 703 00:56:34.320 --> 00:56:37.559 See, that's the other on did they really have They didn't really have anything 704 00:56:37.599 --> 00:56:40.960 by sixty three? Well, the only thing I can think of there early 705 00:56:40.960 --> 00:56:45.639 Oswald stuff at most, So there's no need to destroy all that. That's 706 00:56:45.679 --> 00:56:49.840 not going to implicate anybody or be of any sort of concern. Like you 707 00:56:49.920 --> 00:56:52.599 said, if they missed something that would have had to have happened the intervening 708 00:56:52.639 --> 00:56:55.280 heres I would think. Yeah. But the other issue is it could be 709 00:56:55.280 --> 00:56:59.840 because of the mk Ultra thing. And what do I mean by that they 710 00:56:59.840 --> 00:57:01.840 had to conduct a search to go find those files. They'd ended up turning 711 00:57:01.880 --> 00:57:06.360 up the financial documents. You know, in short story here, they end 712 00:57:06.480 --> 00:57:10.400 up turning up the financial documents and reconstructing what happened from that, because somebody 713 00:57:10.400 --> 00:57:15.360 forgot to destroy those and somebody might have said, hey, that's an interesting 714 00:57:15.559 --> 00:57:17.039 lesson. Maybe we need to get rid of all of our stuff. Now 715 00:57:17.599 --> 00:57:21.639 I'm thinking that that one a good time to say, you know, let's 716 00:57:21.679 --> 00:57:27.599 clear things out in case there was because you know, military intelligence and experimentation 717 00:57:27.920 --> 00:57:30.000 is not like you know, that wasn't part of it too. Remember they 718 00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:34.360 were tied to the MK ultra thing. Yeah, I could see somewhere probably 719 00:57:34.360 --> 00:57:37.440 around the Church committee. Yeah, when the CIA started getting blown up about 720 00:57:37.480 --> 00:57:40.599 family jewels, documents and stuff like that, I can see that being around 721 00:57:40.599 --> 00:57:45.920 the time. Yeah. Yeah, maybe it's good trying to be rid of 722 00:57:45.920 --> 00:57:47.000 some things, you know, just saying I mean, you know, we 723 00:57:47.039 --> 00:57:52.199 could search and also destroy, you know, and stuff like that, and 724 00:57:52.599 --> 00:57:55.079 the d IA could have been sitting there going, you know, they might 725 00:57:55.119 --> 00:58:00.679 come to us sometime and maybe we should get rid of some stuff. But 726 00:58:00.679 --> 00:58:05.280 if I want to school, you know, a schoolboy like Colby in charge 727 00:58:05.519 --> 00:58:08.960 like they did with the CIA, and he might actually admit some stuff publicly. 728 00:58:09.239 --> 00:58:14.440 Yeah, that that's a possibility too. Anyway, what's uh, what's 729 00:58:14.480 --> 00:58:17.320 interesting next though, is you you did something even more recently. And uh, 730 00:58:17.599 --> 00:58:22.800 look, and I'm going to provide links to these articles and stuff on 731 00:58:22.440 --> 00:58:25.719 I guess they're on They're on your website mainly, and they were also published 732 00:58:25.719 --> 00:58:30.880 on Wall Street Window, right yep, yeah, so is this most recent 733 00:58:30.880 --> 00:58:34.320 one also on Wall Street Window? Yeah? Okay, I'll get the link 734 00:58:34.360 --> 00:58:36.719 from there too and put it in the show notes. Guys. Yeah, 735 00:58:36.920 --> 00:58:38.559 just three some of the earlier ones, just because I was gonna talk. 736 00:58:38.599 --> 00:58:40.360 I mean, you know, we have a shorter amount of time, so 737 00:58:40.400 --> 00:58:43.719 I'm not really gonna get too deep into any of them, but I'll give 738 00:58:43.760 --> 00:58:45.599 an overview. I'm on the sixth part of it. Basically, it's, 739 00:58:45.679 --> 00:58:51.639 uh, the how the stories of these Cold War Soviet Cold War defectors reveal 740 00:58:51.679 --> 00:58:54.159 the intelligence abyss. And as I was telling you off air, the intelligence 741 00:58:54.199 --> 00:59:00.079 abyss is basically what I would term all that we don't know and all that 742 00:59:00.280 --> 00:59:04.039 is out there in the intelligence arena. I mean, that's the biggest challenge, 743 00:59:04.440 --> 00:59:08.760 kind of like the black space between stars. The biggest challenge is knowing 744 00:59:08.800 --> 00:59:12.760 what's going on in that area where no one can see anything, where no 745 00:59:12.760 --> 00:59:15.800 one has agents. You know, it's always about infiltration, It's always about 746 00:59:15.840 --> 00:59:20.960 using tradecraft to somehow gain information and to somehow use the pieces of information you 747 00:59:21.039 --> 00:59:24.760 already have to create a picture that you can't see yet. Oh, by 748 00:59:24.760 --> 00:59:28.199 the way, there is one live question I want to get to about the 749 00:59:28.239 --> 00:59:34.119 destruction of files, and I'll leave it to you to respond to because what 750 00:59:34.239 --> 00:59:38.119 Wall Brown has been on the show recently and he often mentions the destruction of 751 00:59:38.119 --> 00:59:45.320 Oswald's personal military file, his personnel file, and that was destroyed, you 752 00:59:45.360 --> 00:59:49.599 know, when it was being like thermo copied, you know, apparently they 753 00:59:49.639 --> 00:59:53.599 destroyed it while they were doing that. I mentioned earlier the xerox which people 754 00:59:53.719 --> 01:00:00.960 used as a common expression for photo copying later but xeroxing a different process, 755 01:00:00.039 --> 01:00:05.880 and they used to use this thermo copying methodology to uh, you know, 756 01:00:05.960 --> 01:00:10.960 the technology kept changing. But allegedly his personnel file was destroyed when they were 757 01:00:10.960 --> 01:00:15.920 trying to copy it. Does that fit into it? Well, the d 758 01:00:15.000 --> 01:00:21.559 i A should have had a backup copy of that. That would have been 759 01:00:21.760 --> 01:00:23.639 interesting. We might have been able to retrieve it if the DA had it. 760 01:00:23.679 --> 01:00:28.679 But I mean the question as it's freeze here, I'll read it to 761 01:00:28.719 --> 01:00:32.159 you. Wall Brown always mentions that Oswald's military personnel file was destroyed after being 762 01:00:32.239 --> 01:00:39.480 quote Thermo facts end quote. How does this fit into Carmine's thesis if at 763 01:00:39.519 --> 01:00:45.800 all? Well, I certainly think a copy of it certainly was destroyed. 764 01:00:46.559 --> 01:00:50.760 See that's the thing, at least by the DA. I mean, if 765 01:00:50.760 --> 01:00:55.480 they want to use the Thermofacts story to explain why they destroyed the copy, 766 01:00:55.960 --> 01:01:00.599 that's a possibility, I guess. But yeah, the DA, Mike was 767 01:01:00.639 --> 01:01:05.599 saying about the centralization of the collection of intelligence. That's what the DA, 768 01:01:05.800 --> 01:01:08.599 like you were saying, because of the Bay of Pigs fiasco, because of 769 01:01:08.679 --> 01:01:12.480 all the things that were coming out about the CIA, you know, staff 770 01:01:12.559 --> 01:01:19.159 d conducting assassination programs and right, you know, off the books operations that 771 01:01:19.239 --> 01:01:22.760 weren't sanctioned by the executive They you know, were forming agencies like the DA. 772 01:01:23.239 --> 01:01:27.920 Kind of the way the CIA, you know, went from Coordinator of 773 01:01:27.920 --> 01:01:34.800 Intelligence OSS Central Intelligence Group, Special Services Unit CIA in the way that that 774 01:01:34.920 --> 01:01:37.960 formed the DA was just another way to centralize the collection of intelligence, but 775 01:01:37.960 --> 01:01:42.760 for the military side sort of to match the civilian side, and then if 776 01:01:42.800 --> 01:01:45.079 they were better at it, maybe more of the CIA's powers would be given 777 01:01:45.079 --> 01:01:49.519 to them, right, And it did seem like Kennedy was in the process 778 01:01:49.559 --> 01:01:54.400 of doing that a bit, because again, the Central Intelligence Agency was not 779 01:01:54.639 --> 01:01:58.519 being straight with them. It's just that simple. I mean, the way 780 01:01:58.559 --> 01:02:00.559 I see it, well, it wasn't being st with itself. That's like, 781 01:02:01.239 --> 01:02:05.679 if people want to get a chance, I want to wholly agree with 782 01:02:05.679 --> 01:02:08.880 you there, if people want to get a chance to look at my Intelligence 783 01:02:08.880 --> 01:02:13.639 Obys series articles, I talked about Soviet Cold War, about a mole hunt 784 01:02:13.639 --> 01:02:15.239 that basically has been going on, and it's been discussed before, but I 785 01:02:15.239 --> 01:02:19.320 try to give a view of it that most people don't see internally, from 786 01:02:19.360 --> 01:02:22.800 the defectors themselves, from some of the victims within the CIA, because the 787 01:02:22.800 --> 01:02:27.320 CIA went after one hundred and fifty of its own officers right during the mole 788 01:02:27.400 --> 01:02:32.639 hunts, and it crippled Soviet Intelligenced Soviet Russia Division, and you know, 789 01:02:32.920 --> 01:02:39.039 basically the CIA, it did more damage, the investigation of a penetration agent 790 01:02:39.119 --> 01:02:44.280 did more damage than any agent could have done, which is a wild thing 791 01:02:44.480 --> 01:02:47.000 really. And yeah, and like you were saying it, like I was 792 01:02:47.000 --> 01:02:52.079 saying, they weren't they weren't strict with themselves because even then Angleton, when 793 01:02:52.119 --> 01:02:58.079 he was conducting the mole Hunt wasn't being honest with the Upper Echiolans and was 794 01:02:58.119 --> 01:03:01.559 doing illegal things to other employers. He's of the same group to try to 795 01:03:01.599 --> 01:03:06.559 prove his thesis that you know, there had to be a mole. Right 796 01:03:07.480 --> 01:03:08.679 Well, so we can't even trust him to be honest with each other. 797 01:03:08.920 --> 01:03:13.280 Right Well, that's the thing is that you got this. And look, 798 01:03:13.320 --> 01:03:16.960 Angleton's an interesting character for sure. Uh. And his you know, his 799 01:03:17.159 --> 01:03:22.480 reaction to the the they got infiltrators and they're looking for moles. I mean, 800 01:03:22.800 --> 01:03:27.079 it's going to be harsh. Uh. And it is not going to 801 01:03:27.079 --> 01:03:29.519 be pleasant. It's not going to be all legal. I mean, it's 802 01:03:29.599 --> 01:03:32.400 just it's Angleton. I mean, oh yeah, right. Well, and 803 01:03:34.199 --> 01:03:37.599 like all good Frankenstein stories, eventually it turns on its creator. There you 804 01:03:37.679 --> 01:03:40.679 go. No, I mean it's and we're not quite there yet. I'm 805 01:03:40.679 --> 01:03:44.800 about halfway through the story. I think I'm in sixty six. I started 806 01:03:45.119 --> 01:03:52.840 in the late fifties, and I started with Popov and the Petrovs, and 807 01:03:52.960 --> 01:03:57.480 I went through some of the people we've discussed before, like Strashinski and Reno 808 01:03:57.639 --> 01:04:01.599 Heinen, and I'm just moving through showing people that you know, you see 809 01:04:01.639 --> 01:04:04.840 certain patterns too. With them, and one of the big you know, 810 01:04:04.920 --> 01:04:08.000 I don't want to take too much time with this, but one of the 811 01:04:08.000 --> 01:04:13.280 big clashes that you'll see people who have read into the intelligence of this period 812 01:04:13.480 --> 01:04:16.239 is between Gallatson and the SENKO and you know, false defectors and true defectors. 813 01:04:16.280 --> 01:04:20.880 And I discussed that, and unfortunately, what I think a lot of 814 01:04:20.880 --> 01:04:25.719 them overlooked was that chances are based on the evidence, based on that the 815 01:04:25.800 --> 01:04:29.400 KGB want to kill all of them. They probably were all legitimate, but 816 01:04:29.480 --> 01:04:32.480 some of them are just egotists. It doesn't mean that what they said was 817 01:04:32.519 --> 01:04:36.480 true, and it doesn't necessarily mean it's false if you don't agree with it. 818 01:04:36.840 --> 01:04:40.639 If there's evidence to support it's true. If there's not, it's false. 819 01:04:41.199 --> 01:04:43.559 But you know, people like to take sides more than they were, 820 01:04:43.679 --> 01:04:47.440 like to prove the claims by these people, and they make them well. 821 01:04:47.440 --> 01:04:50.639 And here's the other problem is that you know, when you're dealing with somebody 822 01:04:50.679 --> 01:04:55.159 who is you know, in captivity, who's being held in a box, 823 01:04:55.159 --> 01:04:59.039 who is now like you know, at the mercy of these people that are 824 01:04:59.039 --> 01:05:05.880 interrogating them. Helm's called it durance vile. Okay, explain that it means 825 01:05:05.920 --> 01:05:11.159 it translates to a duration of vile captivity. There you go, Well, 826 01:05:11.199 --> 01:05:13.719 you're basically yeah, because I mean, like you said, they had them 827 01:05:13.760 --> 01:05:17.880 in a twelve x twelve cell, you know, gruel and weak tea. 828 01:05:18.400 --> 01:05:21.800 Right, you don't see people. You get out for a few hours every 829 01:05:21.800 --> 01:05:26.000 week. You don't get reading material, you don't get cigarettes, you don't 830 01:05:26.000 --> 01:05:29.039 get anything. Right, You're in a box. I mean, this is 831 01:05:29.719 --> 01:05:33.079 what the common terminology I always use is you're in a box and you're in 832 01:05:33.119 --> 01:05:38.239 isolation, which, of course it plays with the mind a bit. All 833 01:05:38.320 --> 01:05:43.119 right, So you know, you gotta you gotta give a little bit of 834 01:05:43.159 --> 01:05:46.039 latitude to some of what's being said here, because it is under duress, 835 01:05:46.920 --> 01:05:50.599 no matter if anyway slice it, it's the rest. Uh, it's in 836 01:05:50.679 --> 01:05:56.639 an opportunistic situation. You certainly want to if you're you know, you're selling 837 01:05:56.639 --> 01:06:00.559 out your country, right, you're selling out your intelligence agency to this other 838 01:06:00.599 --> 01:06:06.400 intelligence agency. Uh. You have the the desire to please your captors for 839 01:06:06.519 --> 01:06:11.159 various reasons. Exactly you want to. You want them to be happy with 840 01:06:11.199 --> 01:06:14.480 your bonafides so they'll accept you, so the look a lot of money, 841 01:06:14.559 --> 01:06:17.159 so they'll resettle you nicely. Yeah, you want to get rewarded one way 842 01:06:17.239 --> 01:06:24.800 or another. So look there there is a lot of possible alterations that could 843 01:06:24.840 --> 01:06:28.360 be made. Oh yeah, no, no exaggerations happened. But see as 844 01:06:28.519 --> 01:06:30.440 what I'm hoping that people will see. Though it's not limited in the sink 845 01:06:30.480 --> 01:06:34.760 one gallotzon. No, they all do to some extent. All of the 846 01:06:34.760 --> 01:06:40.400 defectors pretty much that I've looked over, have exaggerated their bonafeedes to some extent 847 01:06:40.480 --> 01:06:44.280 or have tried to make themselves more important so that the country that they're defecting 848 01:06:44.320 --> 01:06:45.880 to will take better care of them. No, not only that, but 849 01:06:45.920 --> 01:06:48.599 look, all you got to do is look at basic interrogation, any law 850 01:06:48.679 --> 01:06:54.519 enforcement interrogating anybody about something major. Okay, And even if you look at 851 01:06:54.559 --> 01:06:59.199 a general local murder case, no name person doesn't make national headlines anything like 852 01:06:59.239 --> 01:07:01.119 that. You take a look at that case and they let somebody come in 853 01:07:01.480 --> 01:07:04.639 and they just tell us, tell us your side of the story. Their 854 01:07:04.679 --> 01:07:10.599 initial storytelling never matches all the facts, right, because what do they have 855 01:07:10.639 --> 01:07:12.679 to do. They have to go get stuff, They confront them with it, 856 01:07:12.719 --> 01:07:15.559 they trick them with it. This and that, there is a back 857 01:07:15.599 --> 01:07:20.559 and forth to this that is just a matter of interrogation for extracting information. 858 01:07:20.760 --> 01:07:24.960 What people volus here is one thing. I'm just saying, there's a lot 859 01:07:24.960 --> 01:07:30.159 of dynamics here to sort of, you know, unravel. So you have 860 01:07:30.239 --> 01:07:33.360 to judge this information based on a lot of those dynamics and take a look 861 01:07:33.360 --> 01:07:39.000 at the circumstances in which this information was collected. Wouldn't you agree to that? 862 01:07:39.679 --> 01:07:43.079 Oh? Totally? And I think that it's a case by case basis 863 01:07:43.280 --> 01:07:46.800 and it isn't a one size fits all absolutely true. Yes, you're dead 864 01:07:46.840 --> 01:07:49.960 on. Yeah. Some people want, you know, they want everybody to 865 01:07:50.000 --> 01:07:54.119 conform to some sort of defector cutout, and that's just not the way they're 866 01:07:54.119 --> 01:07:58.159 people know, they're each different, they each have the foibles. They all 867 01:07:58.199 --> 01:08:01.679 love to drink. That's the other thing is like what I've read about most 868 01:08:02.000 --> 01:08:05.199 yeah, Soviet defectors, they do like to drink. Well. And here's 869 01:08:05.239 --> 01:08:09.800 another thing. Look, I have seen a circumstance where and I'm not going 870 01:08:09.840 --> 01:08:12.800 to describe where or when I saw this, but I've seen a circumstance where 871 01:08:12.840 --> 01:08:16.199 you know, what you give somebody who was sitting there experiencing the dts from 872 01:08:16.239 --> 01:08:21.399 alcohol, Okay, you give them a drink as a way of getting some 873 01:08:21.560 --> 01:08:26.920 relief as a reward for giving you a piece of information. I've seen this 874 01:08:27.000 --> 01:08:30.560 done. They'll say almost anything. They'll they'll they'll pretty much say anything to 875 01:08:30.640 --> 01:08:32.720 get their addiction to stop itching. All right, Yeah, you know, 876 01:08:32.960 --> 01:08:35.439 just saying all right, Well, that was one of the one of the 877 01:08:35.520 --> 01:08:41.000 ridiculous claims that helms because they tried to justify it after the HCA found out 878 01:08:41.039 --> 01:08:44.359 about it later on what they got called in about the SECO because they did 879 01:08:44.399 --> 01:08:45.800 tell the Warren Commission about in the CENCO. But at the times when the 880 01:08:45.840 --> 01:08:50.079 fetes were being you know, Angleton was saying he was false, and people 881 01:08:50.079 --> 01:08:54.039 in Silver Rest Division was saying he was an honest defector, so that was 882 01:08:54.079 --> 01:08:57.800 being argued. So they just never included his information about Oswa, what basically 883 01:08:57.880 --> 01:09:00.399 would have proven and would have put the bed all these nonsense claims that the 884 01:09:00.439 --> 01:09:04.960 Soviets tried to use Oswald to kill Kennedy. They didn't give to them because 885 01:09:04.960 --> 01:09:09.319 they said they couldn't trust Nasenko, And then later on they hired Nasenko and 886 01:09:09.319 --> 01:09:11.720 made him an advisor, So by then you figured they might have let us 887 01:09:11.720 --> 01:09:16.720 know. Yeah, but you know this stuff, see you again, just 888 01:09:16.760 --> 01:09:20.119 like we talked about with the Landis thing. It's not like the uh, 889 01:09:20.239 --> 01:09:25.039 you know, official agencies need to participate in this. People will muddy the 890 01:09:25.079 --> 01:09:29.079 water. And you can get sort of a you know, a passive kind 891 01:09:29.119 --> 01:09:30.920 of endorsement B like, yeah, let him go ahead and do that. 892 01:09:31.600 --> 01:09:33.760 Uh, and let him go ahead and not know this, and let him 893 01:09:33.760 --> 01:09:38.079 go ahead and and know this piece of disinformation. Sure, go right ahead. 894 01:09:38.760 --> 01:09:41.840 Uh why well yeah, and they and they honestly try to do it 895 01:09:41.880 --> 01:09:45.800 like where we saw with U with the Jox Richardson that when I found when 896 01:09:45.800 --> 01:09:49.680 I was able to identify who Cassisen was right the one who said that, 897 01:09:49.800 --> 01:09:53.800 you know, because they said we'd never used Oswald, And then I did 898 01:09:53.800 --> 01:09:56.560 that article about him, and then we all talked about him on the internet 899 01:09:56.600 --> 01:09:58.840 for a while. And then if you go on to CIA dot com now 900 01:09:58.840 --> 01:10:01.760 you can actually find where they say there was this one officer, Yeah, 901 01:10:01.880 --> 01:10:09.159 there was this one life interesting they did consider using him. Now, was 902 01:10:09.199 --> 01:10:13.560 it widely or considered by you know, CIA pro No? No, CIA 903 01:10:13.640 --> 01:10:16.319 proper would have sat there and gone, m this guy's not really that useful. 904 01:10:16.840 --> 01:10:20.760 But it doesn't mean that somebody else didn't think that he was maybe useful 905 01:10:20.880 --> 01:10:24.760 or maybe he was useful to a limited extent, And there you go. 906 01:10:25.319 --> 01:10:28.800 There's a whole lot of limited extent that people are useful to when it comes 907 01:10:28.880 --> 01:10:32.000 to the agency. Also, so that one they get as much worse as 908 01:10:32.039 --> 01:10:35.199 we've gone over with documents before. Oh yeah, no, I'm trying to 909 01:10:35.239 --> 01:10:38.800 be nice about it. I'm just saying that, you know, just in 910 01:10:38.840 --> 01:10:41.479 a general way. You can look at it that way where it's like, 911 01:10:41.560 --> 01:10:44.600 look, there are plenty of people that are useful just because of the circumstances 912 01:10:44.600 --> 01:10:47.239 they're in, and they don't even need to know that they're being useful to 913 01:10:47.279 --> 01:10:51.159 somebody. They can just be encouraged by somebody else showing up and saying, 914 01:10:51.199 --> 01:10:54.680 hey, listen, I want to fund you. Guys, I want to 915 01:10:54.720 --> 01:10:57.840 help you. You're a friend. Maybe I'm gonna take care of your wife's 916 01:10:57.840 --> 01:11:02.439 teeth. You know, it doesn't matter. Okay that that never mind, 917 01:11:02.560 --> 01:11:08.600 somebody might know what I'm referring to there. The thing is George, Yeah, 918 01:11:08.640 --> 01:11:12.880 exactly. You know de Moor and Shield. That's an interesting story there. 919 01:11:13.039 --> 01:11:15.000 Well, yeah, and Emmograds were a big part of the CIA's bread 920 01:11:15.000 --> 01:11:17.920 and butter at the time, too, right, and that was Tashunski, 921 01:11:18.000 --> 01:11:21.039 that one of the guys that we've discussed in that I talk about in the 922 01:11:21.079 --> 01:11:26.000 series. He was a KGB assassin and he was an immigrat and he took 923 01:11:26.000 --> 01:11:30.039 out immigrays that spoke out against the KGB. There you go. So what 924 01:11:30.119 --> 01:11:32.159 do we need to take away regarding this? I mean, because I'm now 925 01:11:32.279 --> 01:11:35.760 talked you into a circle about this, about this issue. Sorry, but 926 01:11:35.920 --> 01:11:40.279 well, well I just hope people take a look at it. It is. 927 01:11:40.439 --> 01:11:42.640 It's gonna take you know, you're not gonna it's not a quick read. 928 01:11:42.880 --> 01:11:46.000 You'll you may have to. But I do have links to a lot 929 01:11:46.039 --> 01:11:48.560 of the evidence the people that I talk about, and I have all the 930 01:11:48.640 --> 01:11:51.279 NARA numbers, so if they want to actually go look at the original documents. 931 01:11:54.239 --> 01:11:56.439 But basically, I'm trying to take everyone, like I said, the 932 01:11:56.479 --> 01:12:00.000 intelligence abyss, I'm trying to show people the areas around, you know, 933 01:12:00.039 --> 01:12:03.159 where everyone has made a large deal about, like I said, the the 934 01:12:03.239 --> 01:12:06.439 Senko Galotzen clash, or they've made a large deal about a specific defector. 935 01:12:06.520 --> 01:12:10.479 But I think there's a bigger picture to be painted. I think we can 936 01:12:10.560 --> 01:12:14.800 learn a lot from putting all these defectors together and seeing what they've all revealed, 937 01:12:14.840 --> 01:12:17.319 how they've all acted, and what it can lead us to believe about. 938 01:12:17.399 --> 01:12:27.880 Because what Peter Popov, what Michael Golanuski really hammered into the CIA, 939 01:12:27.960 --> 01:12:30.640 and what Gallotzon in my opinion, took advantage of was a Russian term called 940 01:12:30.640 --> 01:12:39.640 does informatzia disinformation, and it was their belief in a grand disinformation campaign that 941 01:12:39.680 --> 01:12:43.560 really sparked off all of these mole hunts and the search for people because they 942 01:12:43.640 --> 01:12:46.239 believe that everything must be disinformation then, and we can see that in some 943 01:12:46.279 --> 01:12:51.760 conspiracy ideas right that same exact as Engleton called it, the wilderness of mirrors. 944 01:12:51.840 --> 01:12:55.479 Well, but that's the problem here, is that if you create a 945 01:12:55.520 --> 01:13:00.199 large enough wilderness, people can don't have time to examine the trees, or 946 01:13:00.279 --> 01:13:02.119 you can put some of the real trees in the fake forest if you want, 947 01:13:02.760 --> 01:13:06.600 because it doesn't matter anymore. You're lost. And that's what's kind of 948 01:13:06.600 --> 01:13:12.520 happened in conspiracy land, that's what does happen in the intelligence abyss because quite 949 01:13:12.560 --> 01:13:15.720 frankly, if you go digging into all of this too long, I don't 950 01:13:15.720 --> 01:13:19.439 know how you get out of that labyrinth, because it's just it's endless. 951 01:13:19.479 --> 01:13:24.479 It seems endless. So you know, and look, I'm gonna give you 952 01:13:24.520 --> 01:13:28.159 guys the links along with the show notes to U. Looks like you've got 953 01:13:28.199 --> 01:13:31.159 three parts up so far at teapok dot com. So I'm gonna give them 954 01:13:31.159 --> 01:13:34.560 the links to those. Yeah. Yeah, well all six are up there. 955 01:13:34.600 --> 01:13:38.079 There'll be links on each of those to the other ones too. Oh 956 01:13:38.119 --> 01:13:41.479 excellent. So at the bottom of there. Yeah, and you're still working 957 01:13:41.520 --> 01:13:45.279 on this, yep, yeah, probably another few more, try to get 958 01:13:45.319 --> 01:13:49.560 it to the end. Basically to win Angleton is booted by Colby. Wow, 959 01:13:49.720 --> 01:13:53.439 that's okay, So you got you got a little ways to go because 960 01:13:53.840 --> 01:13:56.399 you said you were up to sixty six and what year did that sixty six? 961 01:13:56.680 --> 01:13:59.760 Yeah, that's seventy five, I believe. So you start doing a 962 01:13:59.760 --> 01:14:01.800 couple of years throwing a couple more. But I want to also a lot 963 01:14:01.840 --> 01:14:04.680 of people when they when they talk about the mole hunts and everything, they 964 01:14:04.680 --> 01:14:09.479 don't go into the people doing it and also the internal Like I wanna, 965 01:14:09.840 --> 01:14:13.359 I'm going to focus on some of the members of not only the defectors and 966 01:14:13.600 --> 01:14:15.680 the you know Angleton and the officers we know, but some of the members 967 01:14:15.720 --> 01:14:20.079 of c I SIG and the kind of intelligence group that under Angleton and what 968 01:14:20.119 --> 01:14:24.079 they were doing. I mean, there was actually one guy in the group 969 01:14:24.079 --> 01:14:26.359 that was telling the rest of them were totally off track, what the hell 970 01:14:26.359 --> 01:14:30.680 are you guys doing? Why are we investigating our own people? Right? 971 01:14:30.880 --> 01:14:33.039 Well, and there you go, yeah, yeah, and he went quickly, 972 01:14:33.720 --> 01:14:36.920 well, and that's special intelligence. But yeah, you don't last long 973 01:14:38.000 --> 01:14:42.439 if you're pushing against the major operation. Uh that's just the way it goes, 974 01:14:42.479 --> 01:14:45.600 because okay, you're not a team player. Uh, special intelligence group 975 01:14:45.800 --> 01:14:48.720 kind of works that way. So how do we tie a bow on this 976 01:14:48.760 --> 01:14:50.880 one? Carmine? What are you think? And by the way, you 977 01:14:50.920 --> 01:14:56.199 can go to either Wall Street Window dot com and check out some of Carmine's 978 01:14:56.279 --> 01:14:58.840 articles, or I'm gonna give you the links to TEA pok T p A 979 01:14:59.039 --> 01:15:02.000 a K dot com again. Two Princes and a King, which is the 980 01:15:02.039 --> 01:15:10.359 title of Carmine's first book, and you know, there's there's a lot to 981 01:15:10.479 --> 01:15:14.079 be said for that. And also you were working on some of the consolidated 982 01:15:14.119 --> 01:15:18.199 CIA files. There's a lot of information on Carmine's website if you explore it. 983 01:15:18.279 --> 01:15:23.840 So not so many links to my shows anymore. But you know, 984 01:15:23.920 --> 01:15:27.119 YouTube did a job on me. Boy. Yeah, I got rid of 985 01:15:27.119 --> 01:15:29.680 all the dead one I do have some. I've gone onto your site and 986 01:15:29.680 --> 01:15:31.239 put all the ones that are on there, and then any of the speaker 987 01:15:31.359 --> 01:15:34.720 and other stuff I grab. That's great, but you know, but none 988 01:15:34.760 --> 01:15:39.159 of that stuff is long long for this world. It seems like every time 989 01:15:39.199 --> 01:15:42.479 I turn around, I'm getting knocked off of something or other. But best 990 01:15:42.520 --> 01:15:45.680 I can, and I'm actually coming up with a way where I'm going to 991 01:15:45.720 --> 01:15:49.079 be able to consolidate the ten years worth of the archive into a single device 992 01:15:49.640 --> 01:15:54.880 and offer those for sale soon. Actually, I've got some bullet shaped thumb 993 01:15:54.960 --> 01:16:00.720 drives, so I was thinking about offering the magic bullet basically nice and uh, 994 01:16:00.840 --> 01:16:03.720 of course my magic bullet doesn't look like their his minds are pointed. 995 01:16:04.279 --> 01:16:08.159 Uh, they're they're kind of like hunting looking bullets, sort of like the 996 01:16:08.159 --> 01:16:13.560 one that Landa said evidence mine mine. I actually know where it came from 997 01:16:13.560 --> 01:16:16.159 and everything. So yeah, there there is a chain of evidence. Uh, 998 01:16:16.199 --> 01:16:20.760 it is marked. I didn't put my initials on it, but it's 999 01:16:20.800 --> 01:16:26.560 marked and anyway, so that that's all going on. But uh, how 1000 01:16:26.560 --> 01:16:29.279 do we tie a bow on all of this. I mean, I'm gonna 1001 01:16:29.279 --> 01:16:33.119 try and get you in one more time before Lancer, because you're gonna be 1002 01:16:33.119 --> 01:16:38.239 appearing there virtually, Mike and I'll be there in person, which, by 1003 01:16:38.279 --> 01:16:41.960 the way, I I got it. I got a funny thing just the 1004 01:16:42.000 --> 01:16:45.560 guy, the guy I'm on the road trip with, right uh, I'm 1005 01:16:45.560 --> 01:16:48.520 going to Dallas with him. He is insistent that he wants to go to 1006 01:16:48.680 --> 01:16:57.039 where somebody else is having a convention and offer Walt Brown's book for sale outside 1007 01:16:57.159 --> 01:17:00.600 of that convention, which you know, we're obviously gonna have to film, 1008 01:17:00.680 --> 01:17:06.800 and he's gonna prepare some bail money for uh. So this could be an 1009 01:17:06.880 --> 01:17:13.680 interesting weekend in Dallas that you might have to watch virtually, Carbine, But 1010 01:17:13.760 --> 01:17:17.840 I promise you I'm gonna video everything I can. Unless the cops confiscate phones. 1011 01:17:17.880 --> 01:17:24.399 I don't know, we'll find out. So while I'm not em seeing 1012 01:17:24.560 --> 01:17:28.640 the Lancer stuff that might go on, I thought you might find that funny. 1013 01:17:28.640 --> 01:17:30.359 Though. He actually wants to get a sandwich board and walk around with 1014 01:17:30.439 --> 01:17:34.680 it, like you know, and offer it to people walking into another hotel. 1015 01:17:36.079 --> 01:17:40.680 But anyway, you'll be appearing virtually, so that'll be interesting. A 1016 01:17:40.680 --> 01:17:44.279 bunch of other people are as well, But there's gonna be a lot there 1017 01:17:45.199 --> 01:17:47.640 Friday, and then if they decide to do I don't know, because they 1018 01:17:47.680 --> 01:17:49.560 have a lot more They have a ton of speakers of this year, so 1019 01:17:49.560 --> 01:17:53.920 I don't know if they're gonna be doing any of the like the group chat 1020 01:17:53.960 --> 01:17:56.760 we did last year. Well, we have panel stuff that's going to be 1021 01:17:56.800 --> 01:18:00.159 in a separate breakout room and there's all going to be a media room. 1022 01:18:00.319 --> 01:18:04.520 This is a little different arrangement. So uh yeah, there's gonna be a 1023 01:18:04.520 --> 01:18:09.760 lot going on and some things will be simultaneous. Yeah, you know. 1024 01:18:10.039 --> 01:18:13.520 And I'm telling you now, if you're not able to attend, you the 1025 01:18:13.560 --> 01:18:16.159 listeners, you guys, if you're not able to attend, you're probably gonna 1026 01:18:16.199 --> 01:18:19.840 want to purchase the downloads of this because there's gonna be a lot of video 1027 01:18:19.920 --> 01:18:24.039 content that's going to come out of that weekend. It might be many, 1028 01:18:24.079 --> 01:18:28.680 many hours, even more than what you see on the schedule, because I'm 1029 01:18:28.680 --> 01:18:32.039 thinking some people are going to run over on their time, and there's no 1030 01:18:32.119 --> 01:18:35.159 way the schedule is gonna work exactly the way they got it laid out. 1031 01:18:35.239 --> 01:18:39.439 Well, it never works, nothing no planned that never works. Out exactly 1032 01:18:39.479 --> 01:18:42.840 how it's supposed to hear. There's always time delays and stuff. Yeah, 1033 01:18:43.039 --> 01:18:45.279 yeah, yeah. Another thing I was going to say too is now I 1034 01:18:45.279 --> 01:18:50.159 have my twenty eighteen up. I'm gonna have my twenty two twenty twenty twenty 1035 01:18:50.439 --> 01:18:57.520 two presentation of this month too before the new one. Oh hopefully, as 1036 01:18:57.560 --> 01:18:59.479 soon as I can get the new one, I'll get it up. I'm 1037 01:18:59.520 --> 01:19:02.800 doing that greats on the website and the YouTube, just trying to get stuff 1038 01:19:02.840 --> 01:19:06.399 like you know, right, trying to do you have that everything? Yeah, 1039 01:19:08.159 --> 01:19:10.479 I'm sorry. Do you have that group video that we did up on 1040 01:19:10.520 --> 01:19:15.840 YouTube? Yet? Uh? No, I gotta I think I still have 1041 01:19:15.960 --> 01:19:17.319 it. I saved most of my files, but I had to kind of 1042 01:19:17.319 --> 01:19:23.359 recreate part of the website which I lost when the whole hacking and everything. 1043 01:19:23.520 --> 01:19:26.359 I had to get rid of that hard drive, so I lost a lot 1044 01:19:26.359 --> 01:19:30.680 of that. I had to actually copy pictures from my website onto my new 1045 01:19:30.680 --> 01:19:32.840 heart drive. I had to do some weird stuff too, because there was 1046 01:19:32.960 --> 01:19:38.159 a hack attack that screwed up my data. My database was disconnected from my 1047 01:19:38.199 --> 01:19:44.239 website. Somehow nobody could explain that to me. Yeah, oh yeah, 1048 01:19:44.319 --> 01:19:48.199 yeah, fun stuff happens when you I don't know, I guess irritate the 1049 01:19:48.239 --> 01:19:54.800 wrong people. But anyway, Carmine, it's it's great to talk with you 1050 01:19:54.840 --> 01:19:58.000 again, and I do look forward to having you back on again very soon. 1051 01:19:59.319 --> 01:20:00.560 And obviously, as you keep writing this, I want to go into 1052 01:20:00.600 --> 01:20:04.600 more of this stuff because you know, these defectors and what went on with 1053 01:20:04.680 --> 01:20:10.840 them is an interesting thing for sure. You know, does it get us 1054 01:20:10.880 --> 01:20:15.520 closer to a solution on some stuff? Well, it might give us some 1055 01:20:15.520 --> 01:20:19.279 clarity as to what was actually going on at the time. Well, this 1056 01:20:19.319 --> 01:20:23.439 is what i'd say. I'd say, the one thing we can take away 1057 01:20:23.760 --> 01:20:30.000 that where it applies to the JFK case directly is manpower and hundreds of thousands 1058 01:20:30.039 --> 01:20:36.399 of dollars were being wasted chasing penetration agents that likely didn't exist instead of investigating 1059 01:20:36.399 --> 01:20:43.159 the JFK case. There you have it, plus the largest destruction of evidence 1060 01:20:43.680 --> 01:20:47.640 you know up down now that we know of, okay by an agency also 1061 01:20:47.720 --> 01:20:54.479 discussed earlier, and we got into the Paul Landis revelation. Revelations supposedly you 1062 01:20:54.520 --> 01:20:57.520 know, what he used to sell a book and all that good stuff. 1063 01:20:57.960 --> 01:21:00.239 But you know, Kelly effect is all done guy, no matter who you 1064 01:21:00.279 --> 01:21:04.279 are, where you are when you are remembering ammerely o' shelli