1 00:00:18,199 --> 00:00:22,239 We're back with another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Dashinsky, 2 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:25,359 culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show 3 00:00:25,399 --> 00:00:29,320 at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on exit fdr LST. 4 00:00:29,559 --> 00:00:32,600 Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts, and of course to the 5 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:36,799 premium version of our website as well. Today we are joined by Ali Murray. 6 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:42,600 She is the executive director of the American Parents Coalition. Ali, thank 7 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:47,000 you for joining the show. Thank you for having me. Of course, 8 00:00:47,079 --> 00:00:49,840 before we start, could you tell us just a little bit about the American 9 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:54,600 Parents Coalition, what you guys do, and how you got involved with a 10 00:00:54,640 --> 00:01:00,200 group. Sure, so, we are a pretty new organization and it was 11 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:03,319 birthed out of, I guess, kind of a labor of love. So 12 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:08,719 in twenty twenty one, I started the CA to twelve advocacy group called Free 13 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:15,040 to Learn, and after working through endless challenges they're in the education specific world 14 00:01:15,599 --> 00:01:23,519 related to transparency, curriculum, meritocracy, it became really clear that a lot 15 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:29,120 of the issues that we as parents were facing reached far beyond the classroom walls, 16 00:01:29,519 --> 00:01:32,959 and that's what kind of led to the establishment of this organization so that 17 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:38,040 we could really zoom out and look more broadly at the challenge is specific to 18 00:01:38,599 --> 00:01:42,200 parental rights and influence. So as someone who's now worked in this space for 19 00:01:42,239 --> 00:01:47,599 a while, and also as a mother of three, I've noticed that the 20 00:01:47,719 --> 00:01:51,959 landscape of threats is constantly evolving and growing. It's more challenging every day, 21 00:01:52,599 --> 00:01:56,239 and the risks aren't just to our kids' physical safety, but also their mental 22 00:01:56,239 --> 00:02:00,599 well being. And that kind of relates to this broader case campaign that we 23 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:06,480 kicked off the launch of our organization with specific to targeting TikTok, but for 24 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:12,000 the organization as a whole, our goal is really to empower parents to determine 25 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,960 how to raise their children and provide really practical resources for doing so. We 26 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:22,840 want to help parents reclaim their parental authority, and we believe basically the essential 27 00:02:22,879 --> 00:02:27,159 premise is that nothing should stand between a pair and their child, the government, 28 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:30,879 our school's medical establishment, et cetera. And so that's kind of where 29 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:36,879 our organization evolved from and how we got off the ground. As we said, 30 00:02:36,879 --> 00:02:39,840 that's very politically incorrect because as a community, we own all of the 31 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:47,840 children. Of course, yes, our current president believes so it takes a 32 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:52,000 village, as Hillary Clinton said, and we've had you know, Tim Fernion 33 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:57,719 and others who've talked about how obviously having tit nique communities is important for children, 34 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:01,360 but that kind of legal concept of who has ownership over children. I 35 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:07,319 mean, we have seen some shocking quotes come from teachers, from teachers organizations 36 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:13,199 over the last several years about particularly whether parents actually know what's best for their 37 00:03:13,319 --> 00:03:16,439 children. And Ali, I'm curious to what extent that is a part of 38 00:03:16,479 --> 00:03:22,560 what you're trying to push back against. It's a huge part. You know, 39 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:28,039 as parents, our foremost duty is to our kids. We sacrifice every 40 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:30,199 day, we teach them, we protect them, We set boundaries, and 41 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:37,240 our ability to perform those duties and do so in a way that works is 42 00:03:37,319 --> 00:03:42,759 constantly threatened and undermined by exactly what you just outlined. And so that again 43 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:47,120 is kind of why we launched this broader organization. We spend some time breaking 44 00:03:47,199 --> 00:03:53,680 down where the challenges are and basically put them into three buckets. There's education, 45 00:03:53,879 --> 00:03:58,560 which is where I immediately came from and it was familiar with. Then 46 00:03:58,599 --> 00:04:03,759 there's healthcare, and of course culture more broadly to include social media and gaming 47 00:04:04,439 --> 00:04:08,240 and just what's happening out in the world. You know, we used to 48 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:14,280 be able to go to a baseball game or sporting event and leave talking about 49 00:04:14,479 --> 00:04:18,160 the score of the game and what players were great, and now it has 50 00:04:18,399 --> 00:04:21,839 become much more insidious, and that's not always what we leave talking about. 51 00:04:21,879 --> 00:04:29,000 And so just this broader approach to not just parental rights, but parental influence 52 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:33,319 and authority and our ability to determine what's best for each of our unique families. 53 00:04:34,639 --> 00:04:40,639 Yeah. Absolutely, it's surprising, I think to many parents how quickly 54 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:42,879 things have changed. And I'm curious, actually, I know you have kids, 55 00:04:43,439 --> 00:04:47,759 do you hear complaints like this from parents who maybe aren't super political who 56 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,160 you know, maybe they're right of center, or maybe they're just center and 57 00:04:51,439 --> 00:04:57,439 are kind of looking around right now slack jawed, wondering what changed so quickly? 58 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,240 You know, are basically are you hearing from other people that it might 59 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:04,680 even be outside of what we think of as the conservative bubble all the time. 60 00:05:05,519 --> 00:05:09,040 As you mentioned, I have three kids. They're young, they're five 61 00:05:09,079 --> 00:05:14,839 and under, and so I'm very much quote in it with my kids that 62 00:05:14,959 --> 00:05:19,079 require like constant and they have constant needs and require constant supervision. And so 63 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:25,920 my group of mom friends and I talk very regularly about the things that we're 64 00:05:25,959 --> 00:05:30,879 facing in the challenges that we're seeing. And a lot of my friends from 65 00:05:30,759 --> 00:05:35,519 quote real life versus who I encounter in my line of work tend to actually 66 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:39,839 skew a little bit left of center from me, and I hear things from 67 00:05:39,879 --> 00:05:45,120 them where they're surprised with some of the policies, especially in school and childcare 68 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,759 settings, and then I'll use it as an opportunity to stay to them like, 69 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,879 yes, we're on the same page, this is exactly what I'm talking 70 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:56,800 about, and kind of just taking a step back and reframing those conversations from 71 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:00,199 where people are coming from from, you really realize that our coalition is much 72 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:04,360 broader than especially like the mainstream or legacy media wants you to believe. I 73 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:11,319 have a good friend who would probably bill herself as very liberal and crunchy, 74 00:06:12,079 --> 00:06:15,279 and she doesn't give her kids any food dies and we were talking about some 75 00:06:15,319 --> 00:06:21,879 of the policies at school about kids receiving you know, medication or nacs and 76 00:06:21,879 --> 00:06:27,920 stuff like that, and she was upset that her kid had been given tail 77 00:06:27,959 --> 00:06:32,079 and all, which she doesn't allow them to take because the Red Food Die 78 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:35,199 stamp on it. And I said, yes, exactly, that was done 79 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:40,480 without your consent. This is exactly the conversation that we're having that schools, 80 00:06:41,959 --> 00:06:45,240 and not just schools, but you know, these entities that care for or 81 00:06:45,319 --> 00:06:49,279 supervise our children are making these decisions without parents involved because it's something that they 82 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:54,879 have deemed to be appropriate and within doubts and people. I think once you 83 00:06:54,920 --> 00:07:00,199 start having these conversations and really like practical and honest terms, it starts to 84 00:07:00,639 --> 00:07:03,199 demystify and take away that you know, boogie man effect that the media loves 85 00:07:03,199 --> 00:07:10,560 to apply to these more center right conversations, right, like it's only about 86 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:15,959 banning Tony Morrison books basically, right, Yeah, yeah, you know it's 87 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,800 This is a great point, I think to pivot to the TikTok ad campaign 88 00:07:18,839 --> 00:07:21,199 that you all have launched, and I'm eager to hear about it because I 89 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:26,240 know you're putting tons of money behind it. But is it surprising to you, 90 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:30,439 who someone who works in this space, how much parents in some cases 91 00:07:30,639 --> 00:07:36,399 have willfully sort of outsourced their duties to things like TikTok because you know, 92 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:41,519 I don't have kids, but it is surprising to me sometimes how normy, 93 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:46,360 you know, maybe even right of center parents are okay with their children consuming 94 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:54,319 a crazy amount of sort of ideological and political conditioning from TikTok just because you 95 00:07:54,319 --> 00:07:58,319 know, they also sort of like the dance videos. I have actually found 96 00:07:58,319 --> 00:08:01,480 that surprising. But it seems to me that there's a lot of just you 97 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:03,240 know, of course, go ahead and take TikTok. I know you're going 98 00:08:03,279 --> 00:08:07,240 to be getting a lot of cultural political instruction from it, but it's what 99 00:08:07,279 --> 00:08:13,439 everybody's doing. Yeah, it's a It's such an interesting space and conversation to 100 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:18,519 have because I think too some of it is we have to take a step 101 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:20,800 we have to like look at it and then take a step back as to 102 00:08:20,839 --> 00:08:26,399 like how did TikTok enter into our world and our social media ecosystem. I 103 00:08:26,439 --> 00:08:31,199 think, first of all, it's important to acknowledge TikTok is the most popular 104 00:08:31,199 --> 00:08:37,320 social media app in the under eighteen demographic, and so if you're looking at 105 00:08:37,759 --> 00:08:43,919 the kids in that age group and when they started using smartphones and you know, 106 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:50,360 social media technology, it was before the app was really as popular as 107 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:54,159 it is now, and before we understood some of the risks of it. 108 00:08:54,519 --> 00:08:58,279 And so I say that because I think when many parents, especially five six 109 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:05,080 years ago, we're assessing the risks of smartphones at large, but also social 110 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:09,039 media, they were thinking about it in terms of the social media that we 111 00:09:09,279 --> 00:09:13,919 use and are familiar with, which tends to view more towards Facebook, Instagram, 112 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:18,240 and x which while these apps are certainly not immune from criticism, TikTok 113 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:24,960 is a totally different beast and has a unique threat because of the control and 114 00:09:24,039 --> 00:09:31,320 influence by the Chinese Communist Party, And so we see parents as a very 115 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:37,080 important constituency for affecting change specific to TikTok, and it's why we're putting so 116 00:09:37,159 --> 00:09:45,919 much effort and financial support behind our TikTok campaign to like broad in that understanding 117 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:48,000 of the threats that are unique to TikTok, to kind of come to the 118 00:09:48,039 --> 00:09:52,720 parents who are in that site right now with teens and tweens and say, 119 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:56,919 like, here's the information you need to understand to know, like what risk 120 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,759 your kid is carrying around in their pocket. Because I think for many who 121 00:10:01,759 --> 00:10:05,919 may have given their kids a smartphone because they were on Facebook. When TikTok 122 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:09,000 got downloaded, then the genie was out of the bottle and then what do 123 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:13,720 you do? And so hopefully with our ads and some of the resources that 124 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:18,320 we're putting together, we're giving parents the information that they need to be able 125 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:20,679 to see like, oh wow, this is totally different and we need to 126 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:24,360 just you know, rip the band aid off and take it from our kids. 127 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:28,000 Yeah, and enter your ad campaign. So tell us a little bit 128 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:31,320 about, you know, how much money is behind it, what this ad 129 00:10:31,639 --> 00:10:35,240 is conveying, where it's going to be running, and all of that stuff. 130 00:10:35,799 --> 00:10:43,759 Yeah, So last week we launched a seven figure awareness campaign targeted against 131 00:10:43,879 --> 00:10:48,159 TikTok. It's running nationally, but then we focused also in Pennsylvania, Ohio, 132 00:10:50,399 --> 00:10:54,039 Montana, and DC. And again, to be clear, no policy 133 00:10:54,080 --> 00:11:01,320 intervention or number of parental controls will ever replace the hardware of parenting and setting 134 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:05,240 clear boundaries in the digital age. But that doesn't mean there aren't unique challenges 135 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:11,240 and dangers presented by TikTok. So our ad highlights those dangerous things, specifically 136 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:18,519 by calling out first three really alarming statistics. First, forty one percent of 137 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:22,360 American you spend one hundred and twenty minutes on TikTok a day. Now, 138 00:11:22,399 --> 00:11:26,000 to put that into perspective. When you have tweens and teens, if they're 139 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:31,639 in school and doing any sort of after school activity or sport, that's more 140 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:37,159 time than many kids spend with their parents in a day. Within two minutes 141 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:43,279 of use of the app, the algorithm starts serving content about self harm or 142 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:48,519 suicide, and then within eight minutes content about weight loss and eating disorders. 143 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:52,679 So when you have a kid who's spending one hundred and twenty minutes a day 144 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:56,120 on TikTok, you know that they're not only seeing that information, but if 145 00:11:56,120 --> 00:12:00,639 they're engaging with it at all, the algorithm is then only elevating it, 146 00:12:01,039 --> 00:12:03,919 and it doesn't take much before they start, you know, coming down the 147 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:07,399 slippery slope of seeing it more and more and more, and it starts, 148 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:13,879 it starts to think in So a kid may join with the intent of watching 149 00:12:13,879 --> 00:12:18,919 a funny, you know, cat video or learning dance moves, but instead 150 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:24,080 of being pushed that or even neutral content, they're instead being directed towards the 151 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:31,759 self harm, body shaming, those dangerous challenges. And for example, these 152 00:12:31,759 --> 00:12:37,600 self harm videos are including tags and language about you know, enacting some of 153 00:12:37,639 --> 00:12:43,080 these things in private. So that and you need to make everyone think that 154 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:46,639 you're fine, so you have the privacy to be able to do these things, 155 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:50,759 and it's just sick. And again, much of this is of course 156 00:12:50,919 --> 00:12:58,559 credited to the Chinese Communist Party control So in addition to these addictive algorithms which 157 00:12:58,639 --> 00:13:03,679 elevate this content, they also have really poor parental controls. And TikTok also 158 00:13:03,759 --> 00:13:09,159 collects personal data from its users, including your information about your location. So 159 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:16,200 I guess the content that's being pushed weren't bad enough. But also you're handing 160 00:13:16,039 --> 00:13:22,559 a location beacon on where your kid is and also about your household to the 161 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:26,399 CCP, So there's just, honestly, there's a little something for everybody to 162 00:13:26,399 --> 00:13:33,480 hate. Yeah, so you mentioned the relative importance and you know, I 163 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:39,120 don't know how to put it quite but the scope of potential policy intervention. 164 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:43,879 And I think you made such an important point that in the context of this 165 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:48,879 massive discussion about the bill that passed through the House and is now kind of 166 00:13:48,919 --> 00:13:52,639 sitting on the Senate side. By the way, Chuck Schumer's daughters work for 167 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:54,480 tech companies, so I'm not sure that he'll actually bring that bill up. 168 00:13:54,519 --> 00:14:00,360 He talks a lot about tech. But whatever happens with that bill. You 169 00:14:00,399 --> 00:14:05,600 know that that's not enough. That you could have the most powerful bill in 170 00:14:05,639 --> 00:14:09,279 the world and parents are still going to have to intervene on TikTok and on 171 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:13,919 other social media apps set have taken their cues from TikTok, like Instagram. 172 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:18,879 So let me first ask there's some really interesting conservative discussions and disagreements about the 173 00:14:18,919 --> 00:14:22,559 bill itself. Do you have a position on the bill. Do you think 174 00:14:22,559 --> 00:14:26,720 there's anything people should know about the bill as it pertains to how you think 175 00:14:26,759 --> 00:14:31,879 about these issues. Yeah, I think, especially on the right, a 176 00:14:31,919 --> 00:14:35,639 lot of the concern, of course, comes from the free speech angle, 177 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:43,639 and that's where I think you get into the conversations about parenting versus you know, 178 00:14:43,679 --> 00:14:48,879 what can legally be done. And I think what's important to note as 179 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:54,039 part of that free speech conversation is that an algorithm is not free speech. 180 00:14:54,200 --> 00:15:01,840 And that's what makes TikTok so uniquely dangerous is as kids engage with the app, 181 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:09,159 it's deciding on its own or appro you know, business program what your 182 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:13,519 kids sees. So it's not that the content exists, like unless you self 183 00:15:13,559 --> 00:15:16,879 select out of society, your kids are always going to be exposed to things 184 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:22,279 that are harmful, and that exposure still exists on other apps and out in 185 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:28,960 the you know world of social media. But what makes TikTok so uniquely dangerous 186 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:33,200 is the algorithm and the way that that information and what we know to be 187 00:15:33,399 --> 00:15:37,039 harmful and dangerous information is served to the kids. And I think that that's 188 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:43,679 a really important distinction. And also that we know that the bill writ large 189 00:15:43,759 --> 00:15:50,080 targets connection to China, Russia and North Korea and Iran, not to you 190 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:52,519 know, technology more broadly. So it is a pretty the way that it's 191 00:15:52,519 --> 00:15:58,879 written is pretty narrow, and I think those two factors are important to consider 192 00:15:58,279 --> 00:16:03,279 when evaluating support of the bill. But I do think that it would it 193 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:10,799 would certainly make a difference in the way that Tikta of course is able to 194 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:18,240 operate or not based on you know, specifically this algorithm. Debt. It 195 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:22,639 keeps you tossing and turning at night. You can't get away from it. 196 00:16:22,679 --> 00:16:26,639 But the truth is the system is designed to trap you in debt. Insanely 197 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:30,360 high interest credit cards and loans make it nearly impossible to actually pay off your 198 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,799 debt. 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Visit zapmdebt dot 207 00:17:11,279 --> 00:17:21,599 com. That's zapmdebt dot com. Zapmdebt dot com. Yeah. Interesting, 208 00:17:21,759 --> 00:17:25,200 and again there's some really interesting conversations I think, in general happening about this 209 00:17:25,279 --> 00:17:27,519 bill, and there's some things I'd like the Senate to definitely take a look 210 00:17:27,559 --> 00:17:30,720 at in terms of, you know, the scope or the language. But 211 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:37,279 on that point, your argument that this bill in and of itself can't do 212 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:42,319 what parental awareness can do, and that's part of this ad campaign that's so 213 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:48,839 important have you had conversations with parents just people not realizing the extent of the 214 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:53,799 Chinese Communist parties oversight of TikTok. They're One thing that gets talked about a 215 00:17:53,799 --> 00:17:59,880 lot is their potential control of the TikTok algorithm, which is obviously bite in 216 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,559 Beijing headquarters, obviously a serious threat, I think, a huge latent threat 217 00:18:03,559 --> 00:18:08,119 if we ever alerged towards a hot war with China. But also that we 218 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:12,400 actually know and maybe you can tell us more about this, that the Chinese 219 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:17,880 Communist Party that Bye Dances, for example, staffed by many members of the 220 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:22,240 Chinese Communist Party, which is not unusual that they have used their power in 221 00:18:22,279 --> 00:18:26,720 Beijing over TikTok to make changes in Project Texas. That people who are involved 222 00:18:26,759 --> 00:18:32,519 in Project Texas aren't comfortable with Beijing's influence over it. Have you had conversations 223 00:18:32,519 --> 00:18:36,680 with parents that just explaining some of the stuff people don't necessarily realize it. 224 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:45,440 Oh. Absolutely. There is a comment from a few years ago into a 225 00:18:45,519 --> 00:18:52,880 Wildgo I think it was twenty eighteen or twenty nineteen by one of their one 226 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:56,799 of the leadership members of their team, that said they wanted TikTok's algorithm to 227 00:18:59,319 --> 00:19:03,680 be informed by the quote correct political direction. And that's of course coming straight 228 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:07,880 out of CCP. And there are a lot of parents who I've talked to 229 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:11,279 when you say, like, look, this is not it's not even like 230 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,960 hidden. This was set out loud and set out loud a long time ago, 231 00:19:15,319 --> 00:19:18,200 and since then we've only seen the app move further and further in support 232 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:22,880 of that direction. And having those conversations and actually having a comment like that 233 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:29,359 to point to out in the open, of course, is really helpful in 234 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:34,359 making people understand that this isn't just you know, a fear campaign or whatever. 235 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:41,880 And I think it also it also helps parents who perhaps are defensive and 236 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:45,440 feel a little bit guilty because it is so bad, and maybe they know 237 00:19:45,519 --> 00:19:48,079 it is so bad, but are afraid to upset their kids. And that's 238 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:52,599 a whole separate conversation about just you know, parents are at large, but 239 00:19:52,759 --> 00:19:56,640 it does it gives them real data and a tool to be able to lean 240 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:00,640 on and to be able to feel more comfortable in that position. And when 241 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,160 they say to their kid like, Okay, look we're downloading this app or 242 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:10,200 we're deleting this app, and I'm pretty I think it was the most TikTok 243 00:20:10,279 --> 00:20:15,799 is the most banned app by parents for like two years in a row running 244 00:20:15,839 --> 00:20:18,920 these last two years, which I think is a good thing and something that 245 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:23,680 we can also point to when having these conversations with parents, because they are 246 00:20:23,799 --> 00:20:29,240 waking up to it. People are realizing that TikTok does pose a very different 247 00:20:29,279 --> 00:20:34,359 threat then social media writ large and these types of data points, specifically through 248 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:40,400 the lens of everything being controlled by a foreign adversary. It takes a little 249 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:42,759 bit of the pressure off the parent to be able to, you know, 250 00:20:44,759 --> 00:20:48,759 stay all right, we're detoxing from this completely. It's gone. Yeah, 251 00:20:48,759 --> 00:20:51,559 and I want to talk more about that, but before we do. That's 252 00:20:52,839 --> 00:20:56,960 one of the counter arguments I'm sure you've heard over the last few weeks from 253 00:20:56,079 --> 00:21:06,039 actually conservatives is essentially the US government and Silicon Valley are acting as a foreign 254 00:21:06,079 --> 00:21:12,000 adversary when they control what you see on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, etc. 255 00:21:12,559 --> 00:21:18,759 Because what we've seen over the last several years is this intense censorship campaign 256 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:23,039 against taxpayers who are in some respects funding this. And yet you know, 257 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:30,039 when you have a declared foreign adversary in the CCP of my opinion is that 258 00:21:30,279 --> 00:21:34,240 it's obviously different, although at the same time those arguments are very persuasive and 259 00:21:34,279 --> 00:21:40,319 they are talking about something very real. What do you say to those concerned 260 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:42,519 that TikTok is just sort of being singled out so that it can be brought 261 00:21:42,559 --> 00:21:48,480 further under the control of our own government, our own sort of intelligence communities 262 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:57,039 apparatus. When people have those concerns, how do you address the Mallley Well, 263 00:21:57,079 --> 00:22:02,599 I don't think they're unwarranted. Those are definitely conversations that should be had. 264 00:22:02,599 --> 00:22:06,960 But I would also say that it's in China's best interest for us to 265 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,079 take our eye off the ball, and we need to start with our foreign 266 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:15,240 adversaries. And there's just no reason that the CCP should have a direct line 267 00:22:15,279 --> 00:22:21,759 into the pockets and minds of so many people in America, but specifically our 268 00:22:21,799 --> 00:22:27,720 youth, and conditioning them dislike or hate our country to engage in self harm 269 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:33,839 or even mutilating practices. And so I think the conversation always needs to start 270 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:38,039 there. I did see I think it was last week. I saw that 271 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:45,400 Instagram or Meta updated some of their own algorithm things where like you could it 272 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:49,240 is now defaulting to not seeing political content and things of that nature, and 273 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:56,200 that is I think a risk just in and of itself to your point of 274 00:22:56,279 --> 00:23:00,559 the from the censorship side of things. But I do think when to start 275 00:23:00,559 --> 00:23:07,400 with what we know is a pure adversary and poses an actually legitimate danger and 276 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,319 then move on to those conversations, I don't think they're mutually exclusive. Yeah, 277 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:12,559 yeah, no, I agree with that. To what extent do you 278 00:23:12,559 --> 00:23:18,359 suspect this as a coordinated intentional campaign from the CCP? I know that's been 279 00:23:18,559 --> 00:23:23,680 a huge concern when looking at the algorithm's delivery of, for example, eating 280 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:29,119 disorder videos. People have done some interesting experiments where they basically sign up, 281 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,759 as you know, fourteen year old girl whatever, watch a couple of cat 282 00:23:32,839 --> 00:23:37,799 videos and then immediately start getting and I'm paraphrasing the exact circumstances of these experiment 283 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,359 experiments, the exact conditions of these experiments, but essentially that you know, 284 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:47,839 you can send them for Instagram as a teenager that's not expressing any real interest 285 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:52,200 in binging and purging and will suddenly be delivered really dangerous content about it and 286 00:23:52,279 --> 00:23:56,359 other things as well. So to what extent do you think this is a 287 00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:04,880 coordinated effort? Oh? Absolutely is, And the information that you're citing is 288 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:10,759 actually exactly what we use in our ad But beyond that, there was an 289 00:24:11,599 --> 00:24:15,839 investigation done by the Wall Street Journal that touches specifically on the eating disorder stuff, 290 00:24:15,839 --> 00:24:21,960 and they interviewed a handful of girls who said exactly what you just noted, 291 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:26,960 where this wasn't even necessarily on their radar and didn't feel that way, 292 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:32,480 but they were just served with so much stuff that made them then doubt themselves 293 00:24:32,599 --> 00:24:36,920 and think, oh, well, maybe I'll be enter and then more popular, 294 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:38,759 and then I'll get the guy and whatever if if I followed down this 295 00:24:38,839 --> 00:24:45,880 path, and it's absolutely intentional. And we saw some of that in a 296 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:52,920 completely different lens following October seventh, where the algorithms were lifting up you know, 297 00:24:53,599 --> 00:25:00,720 pro Palestinian content, and you know, it's when you have an adversary 298 00:25:00,759 --> 00:25:06,960 that controls the algorithm, you're always going to see what they want you to 299 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:11,599 see. And we've already seen them kind of pivot that just based on current 300 00:25:11,599 --> 00:25:15,319 events over the last six or eight months, and so I think that that's 301 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:22,039 just absolutely a danger that is undeniable. And getting back to something you mentioned 302 00:25:22,079 --> 00:25:26,440 about how parents, you know, maybe let their kids sign up for TikTok 303 00:25:26,519 --> 00:25:30,599 three years ago, two years ago, whatever it is, because everybody is 304 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,000 on TikTok, and then the sort of effort of singling their child out, 305 00:25:34,079 --> 00:25:37,720 making their kid be the one person in school who's not on TikTok or the 306 00:25:37,759 --> 00:25:41,480 one person in their friend group who's not on TikTok, when so much of 307 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:47,240 their social lives have now been exported to this platform. The pressure on parents 308 00:25:47,759 --> 00:25:51,759 who are already dealing with so many issues, especially post COVID behavioral issues, 309 00:25:51,839 --> 00:25:56,240 learning issues, family issues. It's so difficult and I'm wondering, Alie, 310 00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:00,640 can you speak to that, You've been talking to parents yourself. How powerful 311 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:11,200 is TikTok almost simply because of its social connectivity among kids right now? Yeah, 312 00:26:11,279 --> 00:26:14,839 well, this is where you get into kind of like that broader parenting 313 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,440 discussion, and it loops back to almost where we were both kind of laughing 314 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:22,599 at the beginning of the conversation about how it takes a village, and this 315 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:27,960 is the context when it does, because it's important for parents to surround themselves 316 00:26:29,039 --> 00:26:30,720 also with like parents, so that there's a little bit of that, you 317 00:26:30,759 --> 00:26:33,799 know, strength and numbers kind of things, and you are putting your kids 318 00:26:33,799 --> 00:26:38,920 in positions where they're engaging with other kids whose families have similar values, and 319 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:48,200 a lot of this is a broader reflection of our just culture and society as 320 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:52,640 a whole. In America, we're so much of what our kids engage in 321 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,720 and where they interact is peer driven. You know, we're not they're not 322 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,720 following the lead of their parents and grandparents. There's not that kind of like 323 00:27:00,799 --> 00:27:04,920 generational culture that we see in a lot of other places. And personally, 324 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:10,039 I blame a lot of that on social media ri at large, but by 325 00:27:10,759 --> 00:27:15,839 parents surrounding themselves and engaging with other parents and families who have similar values and 326 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:21,359 rules, you know, you're able to kind of whether that be through you 327 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:22,920 know, just a group of friends, your neighborhood, a church, or 328 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:29,519 you know, religious entity, you're able to kind of surround yourself with like 329 00:27:29,599 --> 00:27:33,480 minded families and it's a little bit easier to take some of the air out 330 00:27:33,519 --> 00:27:37,119 of that balloon. And look, I mean, that's it's hard, but 331 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:42,519 that's part of parenting. And you know, if it's not about social media, 332 00:27:42,559 --> 00:27:45,599 it's about having the keys to the car, or it's about being able 333 00:27:45,599 --> 00:27:52,279 to go to a coed sleepover. Those conversations will always happen, They'll always 334 00:27:52,319 --> 00:27:53,880 be hard, and if it's not about social media, it's going to be 335 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,640 about something else. So I know, personally, when I have these conversations 336 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,559 with my friends, that's kind of what I say. It's like, look, 337 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,599 you know, you can have the conversation about TikTok, where you can 338 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:08,960 have the conversation about letting them go stay overnight somewhere. It doesn't absolve hard 339 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:14,079 conversations, it just changes what they are. One of the interesting things in 340 00:28:14,079 --> 00:28:19,599 the last couple of years is watching how American social media companies have adapted to 341 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:27,599 the kind of TikTok universe, have realized how popular these incredibly short form videos 342 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:32,480 are not quite as short form as Vine, but you know, pretty short 343 00:28:32,519 --> 00:28:37,720 relative to different times of content. And we've seen Instagram move way closer to 344 00:28:37,839 --> 00:28:42,559 reels obviously that's part of meta. Facebook now has stories that are really similar. 345 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:48,640 We see it on YouTube with shorts that people just scroll endlessly. So 346 00:28:48,799 --> 00:28:52,440 if TikTok, for example, were to be banned out right so to an 347 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,440 American company, it seems like these challenges. We talked about this a little 348 00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:00,960 earlier too, but it seems like these challenges of that like digital that just 349 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:07,720 addicts people. Jonathan Height, Gene Twinge all have fascinating important research out on 350 00:29:07,759 --> 00:29:11,519 this front too. These challenges are going to be with us for a really 351 00:29:11,799 --> 00:29:17,480 long time, TikTok or not. Because we're now living in TikTok's world. 352 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:25,240 You've probably noticed volatility in the market lately. The stock market has seen unprecedented 353 00:29:25,279 --> 00:29:30,519 fluctuations over the last three years, and silver has historically been considered a safe 354 00:29:30,519 --> 00:29:34,920 haven asset during times like this of market volatility. 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You know, I guess, for lack of a 379 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:48,759 better term, that like do no harm, right, is what is the 380 00:31:48,839 --> 00:31:52,240 purpose behind the algorithm? When we're talking about TikTok, we know it's the 381 00:31:52,319 --> 00:31:59,559 CCP and this kind of influence and changing the worldview of a generation. And 382 00:32:00,119 --> 00:32:06,519 when you're talking about some of these other social media platforms, it's there is 383 00:32:06,759 --> 00:32:09,920 still that addictive nature to it, the constant scrolling whatever, And that's when 384 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:15,000 I think the parental controls are of course extremely important. But again also then 385 00:32:15,119 --> 00:32:19,200 comes down on to the parents that you know, you can you can set 386 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:23,640 time limits on your kids interaction with apps on your phone, you can block 387 00:32:23,839 --> 00:32:29,880 the apps outright, and you know, there just need to be those protections 388 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:34,640 in place so that kids aren't getting down these rabbit holes. I mean, 389 00:32:35,079 --> 00:32:38,200 the statistic of the two hours a day on a single app just floors me. 390 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,400 But again, like if it's not TikTok, there's nothing it wouldn't be 391 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:47,160 something else like Instagram, Reel To your point, and that's dangerous. But 392 00:32:47,319 --> 00:32:52,000 there's a lot of that too that just falls within the tough conversations of parents 393 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:59,640 in making sure that they're adequate and effective parental controls in place, so that 394 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,319 as parents are having these conversations with their kids, they can step those limits 395 00:33:04,039 --> 00:33:07,000 and if not, get the outlast the film completely. Yeah, I hope 396 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,160 we really are in the midst of a kind of new awakening here because with 397 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:15,799 Heights Research, Tunji's research, there's a lot of awareness, your ad campaign 398 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,400 that's airing in states around the country. Hopefully there's a lot of awareness and 399 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,119 that'll undercut the surge to right. Yes, that's right, of course. 400 00:33:23,279 --> 00:33:28,240 And just lastly, I'm curious if you could talk to us a little bit 401 00:33:28,279 --> 00:33:37,920 about what you've seen from the pressure campaign that has just descended on Washington in 402 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:42,799 favor of TikTok over the last again, the last few weeks, roughly, 403 00:33:42,839 --> 00:33:45,319 it's always been there. TikTok is very powerful, by Tings is very powerful, 404 00:33:45,359 --> 00:33:49,920 Silicon Valley is very powerful in Washington. What have you seen from the 405 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,920 perspective of somebody kind of on the anti TikTok side when it comes to all 406 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:57,920 of the special interests crowding the zone here, and especially those in favor of 407 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,920 TikTok. Yeah, I think they. I mean, I wouldn't say I'm 408 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:07,720 surprised by it. It's not like they don't have the resources. But I 409 00:34:07,759 --> 00:34:12,119 guess what surprises me? No, you know what, it doesn't even surprise 410 00:34:12,199 --> 00:34:17,840 me. And you know, it's just it's wild. I just can't understand 411 00:34:19,559 --> 00:34:24,840 why the defense for a known foreign adversary, and you know, it's one 412 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:30,920 thing can muddy the waters to protect you know, commerce in the United States, 413 00:34:31,079 --> 00:34:37,679 and I understand that, but when we know that we're working against a 414 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:43,079 foreign adversary, to see the kind of like anti pressure campaign coming down the 415 00:34:43,079 --> 00:34:46,679 pike, you know, it's just pretty shallow. It's short sighted, it's 416 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:55,480 dangerous, and I mean, it's just it's disappointing. Absolutely, Ali, 417 00:34:55,559 --> 00:35:00,000 is there anything before we wrap that we haven't touched on that you think parents 418 00:35:00,039 --> 00:35:07,519 absolutely should know about TikTok or just any final message before we close. I 419 00:35:07,559 --> 00:35:12,800 think the biggest thing to know is, you know, we launched our organization 420 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,360 and we're spending a lot of time talking about TikTok, But you know, 421 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:22,679 this conversation does apply to social media writ large, and it also doesn't matter 422 00:35:22,079 --> 00:35:24,599 how old your kid is. You know, I mentioned my kids are much 423 00:35:24,639 --> 00:35:29,559 younger, and you know, there have been times where you know, you 424 00:35:29,639 --> 00:35:35,800 turn on YouTube Kids or you know, another streaming service because you want them 425 00:35:36,199 --> 00:35:39,840 to you know, sit for twenty minutes while you unload the dishwasher and just 426 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:45,360 clean up the kitchen before we all go outside, and they get through ten 427 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:51,199 minutes of something, and the algorithm there will feed them something that has charged 428 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:57,920 and not necessarily in line with your family values or you know, what you 429 00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,400 would have selected in this like all play feature. And of course there's you 430 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:07,719 know, children's programming that is just you know, way outside what would have 431 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:12,239 been the bounds of TV. That's that would have been on air even just 432 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:17,360 three to five years ago. So the conversation about the algorithm is one thing, 433 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:22,840 but then there are these broader conversations to be had about about content and 434 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:30,519 what's appropriate, and our organization does plan to investigate those things as well, 435 00:36:30,599 --> 00:36:35,639 and to provide resources more on the content side of things as well. And 436 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:40,519 it's also you know, it's not just unique to social media, to streaming. 437 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:45,000 We touched a little bit on of course, curriculum in the education world, 438 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:51,039 but also what's going on as it relates to medical practices too. It 439 00:36:51,119 --> 00:36:54,920 is really hard to be a parent in twenty twenty four, and we get 440 00:36:54,960 --> 00:37:00,119 that, and as we move forward with our organization, we will have a 441 00:37:00,159 --> 00:37:07,599 lot of resources and tools to help parents have those difficult conversations both at home 442 00:37:07,679 --> 00:37:10,599 and with their own kids, but also out in the world as you encounter 443 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:15,519 these types of things, you know when you take your kids to a doctor's 444 00:37:15,519 --> 00:37:21,559 appointment, or you know, engaging with other forms of social media or streaming 445 00:37:21,599 --> 00:37:25,119 services and parental control. So we look forward to being able to be a 446 00:37:25,159 --> 00:37:35,199 helpful resource in that what seems to be only an increasingly difficult conversation and adventure. 447 00:37:36,039 --> 00:37:38,440 I'm sure that is a much needed resource for so many parents. Alie 448 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:43,480 Murray is the executive director of the American Parents Coalition. You can follow them 449 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,960 on Twitter at USA parent or learn more at Americanparentscoalition dot org. You can 450 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:51,159 actually watch the ad over there as well. Ali, thank you so much 451 00:37:51,159 --> 00:37:55,400 for joining us. Thank you you've been listening to another edition of The Federalist 452 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:59,400 Radio Hour. I'm Emily Trishinsky, culture editor here at The Federalist. We'll 453 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:01,960 be back soon with more. Until then, be lovers of freedom and anxious 454 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:15,559 for the first I heard the fame, voice the reason, and then it 455 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:21,000 faded away.