We're back with another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Dashinsky,
culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show
at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on exit fdr LST.
Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts, and of course to the
premium version of our website as well. Today we are joined by Ali Murray.
She is the executive director of the American Parents Coalition. Ali, thank
you for joining the show. Thank you for having me. Of course,
before we start, could you tell us just a little bit about the American
Parents Coalition, what you guys do, and how you got involved with a
group. Sure, so, we are a pretty new organization and it was
birthed out of, I guess, kind of a labor of love. So
in twenty twenty one, I started the CA to twelve advocacy group called Free
to Learn, and after working through endless challenges they're in the education specific world
related to transparency, curriculum, meritocracy, it became really clear that a lot
of the issues that we as parents were facing reached far beyond the classroom walls,
and that's what kind of led to the establishment of this organization so that
we could really zoom out and look more broadly at the challenge is specific to
parental rights and influence. So as someone who's now worked in this space for
a while, and also as a mother of three, I've noticed that the
landscape of threats is constantly evolving and growing. It's more challenging every day,
and the risks aren't just to our kids' physical safety, but also their mental
well being. And that kind of relates to this broader case campaign that we
kicked off the launch of our organization with specific to targeting TikTok, but for
the organization as a whole, our goal is really to empower parents to determine
how to raise their children and provide really practical resources for doing so. We
want to help parents reclaim their parental authority, and we believe basically the essential
premise is that nothing should stand between a pair and their child, the government,
our school's medical establishment, et cetera. And so that's kind of where
our organization evolved from and how we got off the ground. As we said,
that's very politically incorrect because as a community, we own all of the
children. Of course, yes, our current president believes so it takes a
village, as Hillary Clinton said, and we've had you know, Tim Fernion
and others who've talked about how obviously having tit nique communities is important for children,
but that kind of legal concept of who has ownership over children. I
mean, we have seen some shocking quotes come from teachers, from teachers organizations
over the last several years about particularly whether parents actually know what's best for their
children. And Ali, I'm curious to what extent that is a part of
what you're trying to push back against. It's a huge part. You know,
as parents, our foremost duty is to our kids. We sacrifice every
day, we teach them, we protect them, We set boundaries, and
our ability to perform those duties and do so in a way that works is
constantly threatened and undermined by exactly what you just outlined. And so that again
is kind of why we launched this broader organization. We spend some time breaking
down where the challenges are and basically put them into three buckets. There's education,
which is where I immediately came from and it was familiar with. Then
there's healthcare, and of course culture more broadly to include social media and gaming
and just what's happening out in the world. You know, we used to
be able to go to a baseball game or sporting event and leave talking about
the score of the game and what players were great, and now it has
become much more insidious, and that's not always what we leave talking about.
And so just this broader approach to not just parental rights, but parental influence
and authority and our ability to determine what's best for each of our unique families.
Yeah. Absolutely, it's surprising, I think to many parents how quickly
things have changed. And I'm curious, actually, I know you have kids,
do you hear complaints like this from parents who maybe aren't super political who
you know, maybe they're right of center, or maybe they're just center and
are kind of looking around right now slack jawed, wondering what changed so quickly?
You know, are basically are you hearing from other people that it might
even be outside of what we think of as the conservative bubble all the time.
As you mentioned, I have three kids. They're young, they're five
and under, and so I'm very much quote in it with my kids that
require like constant and they have constant needs and require constant supervision. And so
my group of mom friends and I talk very regularly about the things that we're
facing in the challenges that we're seeing. And a lot of my friends from
quote real life versus who I encounter in my line of work tend to actually
skew a little bit left of center from me, and I hear things from
them where they're surprised with some of the policies, especially in school and childcare
settings, and then I'll use it as an opportunity to stay to them like,
yes, we're on the same page, this is exactly what I'm talking
about, and kind of just taking a step back and reframing those conversations from
where people are coming from from, you really realize that our coalition is much
broader than especially like the mainstream or legacy media wants you to believe. I
have a good friend who would probably bill herself as very liberal and crunchy,
and she doesn't give her kids any food dies and we were talking about some
of the policies at school about kids receiving you know, medication or nacs and
stuff like that, and she was upset that her kid had been given tail
and all, which she doesn't allow them to take because the Red Food Die
stamp on it. And I said, yes, exactly, that was done
without your consent. This is exactly the conversation that we're having that schools,
and not just schools, but you know, these entities that care for or
supervise our children are making these decisions without parents involved because it's something that they
have deemed to be appropriate and within doubts and people. I think once you
start having these conversations and really like practical and honest terms, it starts to
demystify and take away that you know, boogie man effect that the media loves
to apply to these more center right conversations, right, like it's only about
banning Tony Morrison books basically, right, Yeah, yeah, you know it's
This is a great point, I think to pivot to the TikTok ad campaign
that you all have launched, and I'm eager to hear about it because I
know you're putting tons of money behind it. But is it surprising to you,
who someone who works in this space, how much parents in some cases
have willfully sort of outsourced their duties to things like TikTok because you know,
I don't have kids, but it is surprising to me sometimes how normy,
you know, maybe even right of center parents are okay with their children consuming
a crazy amount of sort of ideological and political conditioning from TikTok just because you
know, they also sort of like the dance videos. I have actually found
that surprising. But it seems to me that there's a lot of just you
know, of course, go ahead and take TikTok. I know you're going
to be getting a lot of cultural political instruction from it, but it's what
everybody's doing. Yeah, it's a It's such an interesting space and conversation to
have because I think too some of it is we have to take a step
we have to like look at it and then take a step back as to
like how did TikTok enter into our world and our social media ecosystem. I
think, first of all, it's important to acknowledge TikTok is the most popular
social media app in the under eighteen demographic, and so if you're looking at
the kids in that age group and when they started using smartphones and you know,
social media technology, it was before the app was really as popular as
it is now, and before we understood some of the risks of it.
And so I say that because I think when many parents, especially five six
years ago, we're assessing the risks of smartphones at large, but also social
media, they were thinking about it in terms of the social media that we
use and are familiar with, which tends to view more towards Facebook, Instagram,
and x which while these apps are certainly not immune from criticism, TikTok
is a totally different beast and has a unique threat because of the control and
influence by the Chinese Communist Party, And so we see parents as a very
important constituency for affecting change specific to TikTok, and it's why we're putting so
much effort and financial support behind our TikTok campaign to like broad in that understanding
of the threats that are unique to TikTok, to kind of come to the
parents who are in that site right now with teens and tweens and say,
like, here's the information you need to understand to know, like what risk
your kid is carrying around in their pocket. Because I think for many who
may have given their kids a smartphone because they were on Facebook. When TikTok
got downloaded, then the genie was out of the bottle and then what do
you do? And so hopefully with our ads and some of the resources that
we're putting together, we're giving parents the information that they need to be able
to see like, oh wow, this is totally different and we need to
just you know, rip the band aid off and take it from our kids.
Yeah, and enter your ad campaign. So tell us a little bit
about, you know, how much money is behind it, what this ad
is conveying, where it's going to be running, and all of that stuff.
Yeah, So last week we launched a seven figure awareness campaign targeted against
TikTok. It's running nationally, but then we focused also in Pennsylvania, Ohio,
Montana, and DC. And again, to be clear, no policy
intervention or number of parental controls will ever replace the hardware of parenting and setting
clear boundaries in the digital age. But that doesn't mean there aren't unique challenges
and dangers presented by TikTok. So our ad highlights those dangerous things, specifically
by calling out first three really alarming statistics. First, forty one percent of
American you spend one hundred and twenty minutes on TikTok a day. Now,
to put that into perspective. When you have tweens and teens, if they're
in school and doing any sort of after school activity or sport, that's more
time than many kids spend with their parents in a day. Within two minutes
of use of the app, the algorithm starts serving content about self harm or
suicide, and then within eight minutes content about weight loss and eating disorders.
So when you have a kid who's spending one hundred and twenty minutes a day
on TikTok, you know that they're not only seeing that information, but if
they're engaging with it at all, the algorithm is then only elevating it,
and it doesn't take much before they start, you know, coming down the
slippery slope of seeing it more and more and more, and it starts,
it starts to think in So a kid may join with the intent of watching
a funny, you know, cat video or learning dance moves, but instead
of being pushed that or even neutral content, they're instead being directed towards the
self harm, body shaming, those dangerous challenges. And for example, these
self harm videos are including tags and language about you know, enacting some of
these things in private. So that and you need to make everyone think that
you're fine, so you have the privacy to be able to do these things,
and it's just sick. And again, much of this is of course
credited to the Chinese Communist Party control So in addition to these addictive algorithms which
elevate this content, they also have really poor parental controls. And TikTok also
collects personal data from its users, including your information about your location. So
I guess the content that's being pushed weren't bad enough. But also you're handing
a location beacon on where your kid is and also about your household to the
CCP, So there's just, honestly, there's a little something for everybody to
hate. Yeah, so you mentioned the relative importance and you know, I
don't know how to put it quite but the scope of potential policy intervention.
And I think you made such an important point that in the context of this
massive discussion about the bill that passed through the House and is now kind of
sitting on the Senate side. By the way, Chuck Schumer's daughters work for
tech companies, so I'm not sure that he'll actually bring that bill up.
He talks a lot about tech. But whatever happens with that bill. You
know that that's not enough. That you could have the most powerful bill in
the world and parents are still going to have to intervene on TikTok and on
other social media apps set have taken their cues from TikTok, like Instagram.
So let me first ask there's some really interesting conservative discussions and disagreements about the
bill itself. Do you have a position on the bill. Do you think
there's anything people should know about the bill as it pertains to how you think
about these issues. Yeah, I think, especially on the right, a
lot of the concern, of course, comes from the free speech angle,
and that's where I think you get into the conversations about parenting versus you know,
what can legally be done. And I think what's important to note as
part of that free speech conversation is that an algorithm is not free speech.
And that's what makes TikTok so uniquely dangerous is as kids engage with the app,
it's deciding on its own or appro you know, business program what your
kids sees. So it's not that the content exists, like unless you self
select out of society, your kids are always going to be exposed to things
that are harmful, and that exposure still exists on other apps and out in
the you know world of social media. But what makes TikTok so uniquely dangerous
is the algorithm and the way that that information and what we know to be
harmful and dangerous information is served to the kids. And I think that that's
a really important distinction. And also that we know that the bill writ large
targets connection to China, Russia and North Korea and Iran, not to you
know, technology more broadly. So it is a pretty the way that it's
written is pretty narrow, and I think those two factors are important to consider
when evaluating support of the bill. But I do think that it would it
would certainly make a difference in the way that Tikta of course is able to
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and again there's some really interesting conversations I think, in general happening about this
bill, and there's some things I'd like the Senate to definitely take a look
at in terms of, you know, the scope or the language. But
on that point, your argument that this bill in and of itself can't do
what parental awareness can do, and that's part of this ad campaign that's so
important have you had conversations with parents just people not realizing the extent of the
Chinese Communist parties oversight of TikTok. They're One thing that gets talked about a
lot is their potential control of the TikTok algorithm, which is obviously bite in
Beijing headquarters, obviously a serious threat, I think, a huge latent threat
if we ever alerged towards a hot war with China. But also that we
actually know and maybe you can tell us more about this, that the Chinese
Communist Party that Bye Dances, for example, staffed by many members of the
Chinese Communist Party, which is not unusual that they have used their power in
Beijing over TikTok to make changes in Project Texas. That people who are involved
in Project Texas aren't comfortable with Beijing's influence over it. Have you had conversations
with parents that just explaining some of the stuff people don't necessarily realize it.
Oh. Absolutely. There is a comment from a few years ago into a
Wildgo I think it was twenty eighteen or twenty nineteen by one of their one
of the leadership members of their team, that said they wanted TikTok's algorithm to
be informed by the quote correct political direction. And that's of course coming straight
out of CCP. And there are a lot of parents who I've talked to
when you say, like, look, this is not it's not even like
hidden. This was set out loud and set out loud a long time ago,
and since then we've only seen the app move further and further in support
of that direction. And having those conversations and actually having a comment like that
to point to out in the open, of course, is really helpful in
making people understand that this isn't just you know, a fear campaign or whatever.
And I think it also it also helps parents who perhaps are defensive and
feel a little bit guilty because it is so bad, and maybe they know
it is so bad, but are afraid to upset their kids. And that's
a whole separate conversation about just you know, parents are at large, but
it does it gives them real data and a tool to be able to lean
on and to be able to feel more comfortable in that position. And when
they say to their kid like, Okay, look we're downloading this app or
we're deleting this app, and I'm pretty I think it was the most TikTok
is the most banned app by parents for like two years in a row running
these last two years, which I think is a good thing and something that
we can also point to when having these conversations with parents, because they are
waking up to it. People are realizing that TikTok does pose a very different
threat then social media writ large and these types of data points, specifically through
the lens of everything being controlled by a foreign adversary. It takes a little
bit of the pressure off the parent to be able to, you know,
stay all right, we're detoxing from this completely. It's gone. Yeah,
and I want to talk more about that, but before we do. That's
one of the counter arguments I'm sure you've heard over the last few weeks from
actually conservatives is essentially the US government and Silicon Valley are acting as a foreign
adversary when they control what you see on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, etc.
Because what we've seen over the last several years is this intense censorship campaign
against taxpayers who are in some respects funding this. And yet you know,
when you have a declared foreign adversary in the CCP of my opinion is that
it's obviously different, although at the same time those arguments are very persuasive and
they are talking about something very real. What do you say to those concerned
that TikTok is just sort of being singled out so that it can be brought
further under the control of our own government, our own sort of intelligence communities
apparatus. When people have those concerns, how do you address the Mallley Well,
I don't think they're unwarranted. Those are definitely conversations that should be had.
But I would also say that it's in China's best interest for us to
take our eye off the ball, and we need to start with our foreign
adversaries. And there's just no reason that the CCP should have a direct line
into the pockets and minds of so many people in America, but specifically our
youth, and conditioning them dislike or hate our country to engage in self harm
or even mutilating practices. And so I think the conversation always needs to start
there. I did see I think it was last week. I saw that
Instagram or Meta updated some of their own algorithm things where like you could it
is now defaulting to not seeing political content and things of that nature, and
that is I think a risk just in and of itself to your point of
the from the censorship side of things. But I do think when to start
with what we know is a pure adversary and poses an actually legitimate danger and
then move on to those conversations, I don't think they're mutually exclusive. Yeah,
yeah, no, I agree with that. To what extent do you
suspect this as a coordinated intentional campaign from the CCP? I know that's been
a huge concern when looking at the algorithm's delivery of, for example, eating
disorder videos. People have done some interesting experiments where they basically sign up,
as you know, fourteen year old girl whatever, watch a couple of cat
videos and then immediately start getting and I'm paraphrasing the exact circumstances of these experiment
experiments, the exact conditions of these experiments, but essentially that you know,
you can send them for Instagram as a teenager that's not expressing any real interest
in binging and purging and will suddenly be delivered really dangerous content about it and
other things as well. So to what extent do you think this is a
coordinated effort? Oh? Absolutely is, And the information that you're citing is
actually exactly what we use in our ad But beyond that, there was an
investigation done by the Wall Street Journal that touches specifically on the eating disorder stuff,
and they interviewed a handful of girls who said exactly what you just noted,
where this wasn't even necessarily on their radar and didn't feel that way,
but they were just served with so much stuff that made them then doubt themselves
and think, oh, well, maybe I'll be enter and then more popular,
and then I'll get the guy and whatever if if I followed down this
path, and it's absolutely intentional. And we saw some of that in a
completely different lens following October seventh, where the algorithms were lifting up you know,
pro Palestinian content, and you know, it's when you have an adversary
that controls the algorithm, you're always going to see what they want you to
see. And we've already seen them kind of pivot that just based on current
events over the last six or eight months, and so I think that that's
just absolutely a danger that is undeniable. And getting back to something you mentioned
about how parents, you know, maybe let their kids sign up for TikTok
three years ago, two years ago, whatever it is, because everybody is
on TikTok, and then the sort of effort of singling their child out,
making their kid be the one person in school who's not on TikTok or the
one person in their friend group who's not on TikTok, when so much of
their social lives have now been exported to this platform. The pressure on parents
who are already dealing with so many issues, especially post COVID behavioral issues,
learning issues, family issues. It's so difficult and I'm wondering, Alie,
can you speak to that, You've been talking to parents yourself. How powerful
is TikTok almost simply because of its social connectivity among kids right now? Yeah,
well, this is where you get into kind of like that broader parenting
discussion, and it loops back to almost where we were both kind of laughing
at the beginning of the conversation about how it takes a village, and this
is the context when it does, because it's important for parents to surround themselves
also with like parents, so that there's a little bit of that, you
know, strength and numbers kind of things, and you are putting your kids
in positions where they're engaging with other kids whose families have similar values, and
a lot of this is a broader reflection of our just culture and society as
a whole. In America, we're so much of what our kids engage in
and where they interact is peer driven. You know, we're not they're not
following the lead of their parents and grandparents. There's not that kind of like
generational culture that we see in a lot of other places. And personally,
I blame a lot of that on social media ri at large, but by
parents surrounding themselves and engaging with other parents and families who have similar values and
rules, you know, you're able to kind of whether that be through you
know, just a group of friends, your neighborhood, a church, or
you know, religious entity, you're able to kind of surround yourself with like
minded families and it's a little bit easier to take some of the air out
of that balloon. And look, I mean, that's it's hard, but
that's part of parenting. And you know, if it's not about social media,
it's about having the keys to the car, or it's about being able
to go to a coed sleepover. Those conversations will always happen, They'll always
be hard, and if it's not about social media, it's going to be
about something else. So I know, personally, when I have these conversations
with my friends, that's kind of what I say. It's like, look,
you know, you can have the conversation about TikTok, where you can
have the conversation about letting them go stay overnight somewhere. It doesn't absolve hard
conversations, it just changes what they are. One of the interesting things in
the last couple of years is watching how American social media companies have adapted to
the kind of TikTok universe, have realized how popular these incredibly short form videos
are not quite as short form as Vine, but you know, pretty short
relative to different times of content. And we've seen Instagram move way closer to
reels obviously that's part of meta. Facebook now has stories that are really similar.
We see it on YouTube with shorts that people just scroll endlessly. So
if TikTok, for example, were to be banned out right so to an
American company, it seems like these challenges. We talked about this a little
earlier too, but it seems like these challenges of that like digital that just
addicts people. Jonathan Height, Gene Twinge all have fascinating important research out on
this front too. These challenges are going to be with us for a really
long time, TikTok or not. Because we're now living in TikTok's world.
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more. Oh totally. And that's where I think the conversation always goes back
to first and foremost. You know, I guess, for lack of a
better term, that like do no harm, right, is what is the
purpose behind the algorithm? When we're talking about TikTok, we know it's the
CCP and this kind of influence and changing the worldview of a generation. And
when you're talking about some of these other social media platforms, it's there is
still that addictive nature to it, the constant scrolling whatever, And that's when
I think the parental controls are of course extremely important. But again also then
comes down on to the parents that you know, you can you can set
time limits on your kids interaction with apps on your phone, you can block
the apps outright, and you know, there just need to be those protections
in place so that kids aren't getting down these rabbit holes. I mean,
the statistic of the two hours a day on a single app just floors me.
But again, like if it's not TikTok, there's nothing it wouldn't be
something else like Instagram, Reel To your point, and that's dangerous. But
there's a lot of that too that just falls within the tough conversations of parents
in making sure that they're adequate and effective parental controls in place, so that
as parents are having these conversations with their kids, they can step those limits
and if not, get the outlast the film completely. Yeah, I hope
we really are in the midst of a kind of new awakening here because with
Heights Research, Tunji's research, there's a lot of awareness, your ad campaign
that's airing in states around the country. Hopefully there's a lot of awareness and
that'll undercut the surge to right. Yes, that's right, of course.
And just lastly, I'm curious if you could talk to us a little bit
about what you've seen from the pressure campaign that has just descended on Washington in
favor of TikTok over the last again, the last few weeks, roughly,
it's always been there. TikTok is very powerful, by Tings is very powerful,
Silicon Valley is very powerful in Washington. What have you seen from the
perspective of somebody kind of on the anti TikTok side when it comes to all
of the special interests crowding the zone here, and especially those in favor of
TikTok. Yeah, I think they. I mean, I wouldn't say I'm
surprised by it. It's not like they don't have the resources. But I
guess what surprises me? No, you know what, it doesn't even surprise
me. And you know, it's just it's wild. I just can't understand
why the defense for a known foreign adversary, and you know, it's one
thing can muddy the waters to protect you know, commerce in the United States,
and I understand that, but when we know that we're working against a
foreign adversary, to see the kind of like anti pressure campaign coming down the
pike, you know, it's just pretty shallow. It's short sighted, it's
dangerous, and I mean, it's just it's disappointing. Absolutely, Ali,
is there anything before we wrap that we haven't touched on that you think parents
absolutely should know about TikTok or just any final message before we close. I
think the biggest thing to know is, you know, we launched our organization
and we're spending a lot of time talking about TikTok, But you know,
this conversation does apply to social media writ large, and it also doesn't matter
how old your kid is. You know, I mentioned my kids are much
younger, and you know, there have been times where you know, you
turn on YouTube Kids or you know, another streaming service because you want them
to you know, sit for twenty minutes while you unload the dishwasher and just
clean up the kitchen before we all go outside, and they get through ten
minutes of something, and the algorithm there will feed them something that has charged
and not necessarily in line with your family values or you know, what you
would have selected in this like all play feature. And of course there's you
know, children's programming that is just you know, way outside what would have
been the bounds of TV. That's that would have been on air even just
three to five years ago. So the conversation about the algorithm is one thing,
but then there are these broader conversations to be had about about content and
what's appropriate, and our organization does plan to investigate those things as well,
and to provide resources more on the content side of things as well. And
it's also you know, it's not just unique to social media, to streaming.
We touched a little bit on of course, curriculum in the education world,
but also what's going on as it relates to medical practices too. It
is really hard to be a parent in twenty twenty four, and we get
that, and as we move forward with our organization, we will have a
lot of resources and tools to help parents have those difficult conversations both at home
and with their own kids, but also out in the world as you encounter
these types of things, you know when you take your kids to a doctor's
appointment, or you know, engaging with other forms of social media or streaming
services and parental control. So we look forward to being able to be a
helpful resource in that what seems to be only an increasingly difficult conversation and adventure.
I'm sure that is a much needed resource for so many parents. Alie
Murray is the executive director of the American Parents Coalition. You can follow them
on Twitter at USA parent or learn more at Americanparentscoalition dot org. You can
actually watch the ad over there as well. Ali, thank you so much
for joining us. Thank you you've been listening to another edition of The Federalist
Radio Hour. I'm Emily Trishinsky, culture editor here at The Federalist. We'll
be back soon with more. Until then, be lovers of freedom and anxious
for the first I heard the fame, voice the reason, and then it
faded away.