Hello everyone, This is Martin Willis, and I'm introducing a new show that
I do with four people generally all together, that is Chris DePerno on Ecker
Mandicbra. This week, however, Kevin Randall is taking Commanded Kobra's place,
and it's called UAP Crossfire. I'm playing the audio to this one particular show
to introduce it and to let you know that you can get this show every
single week on Thursday evenings at eight to ten pm Eastern live on our YouTube
channel, or watch it any following time after that. Down below you will
see a link to our YouTube channel. And this is over at KGr A
Radio. UAPs unidentified anomalist phenomenon. Are they extraterrestrial interdimensional time travelers in origin
or are they simply a result of top secret and military blacks, false flagged
alien invasion psyop, drones or other human made aircraft. Joined UFO historian Don
Ecker move On, State Director for New York, Chris Staperno, retired Federate
pilot Commanda Cubra, and Willis dean host and researcher Martin Willis, as they
discussed the latest news and topics regarding UAPs with a no holds barred approach on
UAP boss Line. Hello everyone, and welcome to UAP Crossfire. I'm Martin
Willis, and over here we have Christaperno. He is a former investigator and
also involved in mofon. Down here we have Don Ecker, who's been at
this a very very long time. He was involved with the UFO magazine years
ago and has written many great articles and books. And speaking of books,
right down here, Kevin Randall joins us, taking the place of Commander Cobra.
Now, these are all veterans, and I want to wish you all
happy belated Veterans Day and all you out there as well. I'm the only
non veteran in the house here tonight, and thank you all for your service.
Now, a couple of things we're going to be talking today. We're
going to be talking a little bit about a r O in the whole situation.
And Kirkpatrick, I watched this live last night. He was involved in
like it was called UAP Clarity, and so I want to talk a little
bit about that. He was joined by David Priest. He's an NSI speaker
on National security. Of course, Doctor Shearon Sean Kirkpatrick he is the head
of a r O, which is all Domain Anomaly Resolution Office, and also
Shane Harris, who reports on US and intelligence for the Washington Post. And
I should mention this that Shane, for one, claims that he had a
lifelong interest in UFOs. So the one thing I want to say that I
get out of this whole thing, that I want to caution everybody about and
point attention to really quickly, and that it should never ever happen, and
that is Sean Kirkpatrick is not naming people that are involved in I'm trying to
think what he called it. It was a technical office that helps them out.
He's not naming any names, and solely because he himself has been totally
attacked and harassed, even his son, and I think there is no place
in the world for that type of behavior. It really makes all of us
in the UFO community look bad, a black eye in my opinion, and
I just whoever's doing that, don't do it anymore. Please. It's it's
it's a terrible thing, but I believe. So I'm going to go around
and ask, you know, different opinions, And first of all, I'd
like to start with Kevin Randall who is filling in for a command of Cobra.
I want to ask what do you think of the aa R and Sean
Kirkpatrick's his job that he's done so far, we've seen it all before.
I think of this as you know two point oh maybe three point oh.
If you go back to nineteen forty seven when the first UFO's flying saucers appeared
on the scene, there was a serious investigation that they started to learn what
was going on. It quickly degenerated into the debunking and ignoring the problem,
and we're doing the scene the same thing here. We've had seriousness in the
beginning, but nothing has happened, nothing has changed. We hear about transparency,
but there is none. We are told that they've investigated eight hundred some
cases now, but they haven't told us exactly what those cases are. They
haven't told us much about the resolution of those cases, other than to suggest
that there was no evidence of alien visitation or extraterrestrial presence. We're getting absolutely
nothing. They've been distracted by I think people who are less incredible talking about
crash retrievals. Twelve crash retrievals, including some that we know our hoaxes.
They don't seem to have any discrimination. I'm just not impressed with the thing.
I mean, we're way down the road and we really don't have any
more information today than we had two or three years ago. Right, anyone
else want to jump in on your opinion, John, Yeah, this is
an extenuation, in my opinion, of the same dog and Pony sex show
that the Pentagon and the intelligence people have been doing going on eighty years now.
Look, the bottom line is, none of those people, Kirkpatrick,
none of those people have been read into the program. When you have the
former director of the Defense Intelligence Agency tell Is told purportedly that you don't have
a need to know, Okay, the guy that was heading up the DEIA,
then hey, buddy, the fix is in. It's in. And
recently a paper I wrote, I basically stated in there that whatever this core
secret is, it will never be exposed simply because they discovered something. They
the powers that be discovered something back in the late forties the early fifties that
they were terrified would eventually get out into the public, and they've shut it
down forever and a day. And the bottom line is, if you get
right down to it, we're spinning wheels, all right, Chris, If
I have to agree with Kevin Randall, first of all, I think this
is a bunch of garbage. I mean, we've seen them try to make
fake things into real that's ridiculous. We've seen people who we take are highly
credible, like let's take the guy of naval intelligence. I say this all
the time. I knew the minute he opened his mouth, I knew there
would never be disclosure. When he turns around and he goes, oh my
god, look at this triangle up here. We analyze this for months,
and we came to the conclusion that this was a drug over a naval battleship
or a cruiser or whatever with the most sophisticated radar equipment that was on that
shift. And they can't tell that it was a drone immediately. Come on.
I mean, you know there's a bridge for U sale, but I'm
not buying it, so I can tell you this. I don't think disclosures
come in. And I have to agree with what Don says. I think
there's something maybe idious that they don't want to tell us, because if they
do, we're going to start asking secondary questions, and the secondary questions they
don't want to answer. Now, I'm going to go a little step farther
and I'm going to put this out there because I you know, in some
of the move On reports, some of the people know whether I cannot vouch
for this, but I will tell you that people have said there have been
body parts and mutilated people when some of these crashes happen. Now, I'm
not saying that that's been vetted. I will I will not stand and say
that's vetted. However, people have reported. So let's just say this is
true. Let's just say that they are doing bad things to us. And
the US government goes, oh my god, if we put this out here,
how are we going to justify and handle all this? Well, guy,
it's the guy that originally did human mutilation research starting back in the late
eighties. Number one, I think talking about this, there's more than one
group of visitors, let's call them visitors coming here, more than one,
but one of them, in fact, has basically dealt in not only cattle
mutilations and mutilations of many other animals, including horses, bison, sheep,
but also the odd human. It has happened, as a matter of fact,
the other day. Two days ago, I just discovered another case of
human mutilation from Brazil that had been hidden until nineteen ninety four. I had
never heard of it. And believe me, back in the early nineties I
was up to my eyebrows in that research. But yeah, there have been
those things that have happened, and if that's part of the equation, hey,
they're never going to talk about that ever ever, Martin. One little
thing when I talked about this one of the Senate here congressional hearings, and
this is the thing that just got me. When the head of Naval Intelligence
gets there and says that we don't have a good enough computer to give you
a better shot of what was projected on the screen there. Do you remember
that he says, oh, our computers can't can't handle this. He brought
a maybe a lousy laughtop with him to try to show a picture at one
of the congressional heroes. We had some of the most sophisticated equipment in the
world. You can't tell me that they couldn't couldn't get a very sophisticated computer
to show a congressional hearing. That that was just a joke. Well,
if I can jump in. I'd like to say one thing about the same
hearing. I noticed they asked one of the representative asked about the the mals
from Air Force Base cutting down the missiles and the Navy guy that you've been
talking about. Chris said, well, we haven't heard about that. We
don't know anything about it. Later on, later on he actually said,
well, I do sort of know about that, so we've got him caught
in a fabrication. Wilson was either ken right, yeah. They he looked
like a deer in headlights when they asked about Ambra Wilson, let's see.
Yeah, Well, you know, I'm in touch with a guy that's down
in Washington, d C. And he's been doing a deep dive into,
you know, the transparency of UAP. I don't know if anyone's heard of
Kevin Wright the Soul Foundation, that he's trying to really dive deep into what
is being what are they're being transparent aar, what are they being transparent about
or not. He thinks it's a total disinformation operation and I kind of agree
a bit with that. One of the things that I was watching last night
and kirk Patrick was asked the question, what about the uh, what about
doing research on the TIC TAC you know, situation off in two thousand and
four, And he said, well, first of all, it's about in
two thousand and four, and all the data we have on that is the
data that you all have on YouTube. And you know what I call on
that, I call that BS total BS. They have more data on that,
you know, they do. The data bricks were taken off from the
Hawkeye, the Grumm and Hawkeye that was that. You know, there's more
than one witness that has saw those data bricks taken away, so you know,
somewhere maybe it's compartmentalized, but he should have access to it. He's
supposed to have access to all these these you know, defense segments that are
out there. You know, could they hide something like that? Why would
they hide it? All that? And the whole thing about the TIC TAC
that I think is really bizarre, that whole situation is that it seems to
me that the people in command would really want to know what the heck's going
on, and they it was just kind of like you know, casual,
Yeah, it'll send someone out there and take a look, you know,
and then after they viewed what they saw, that they didn't do more exploration.
They just went out and they filmed a little bit and that's it.
Now would be like, oh my god, I'd want to find out only
Don, only Don, I could call it that. Kevin, I have
a question for you now, you've been in the military, you've written many
books, and you're probably one of the leading authorities on this, and I'm
going to ask you about disclosure. Why what, in your opinion, why
are they putting on this such a dog and pony show when most of the
people in the world believe in UFOs. Now, I think they're trying to
as Don has said, they're covering up the ultimate truth. They can't go
to disclosure, and in intelligence, one of the things you do is you
deny everything. If you classified material, if you're called about it, you
deny everything, even if the other side can out the information. I'm thinking
we say there's no UFOs, Well, if they land here, that pretty
well ends the conversation. But they haven't done that, so we can keep
our secret because they haven't cooperated in that sense. There's clearly something going on.
There's clearly something that they're hiding. And I think the other problem is
it all has to do with power. If they admit that they don't have
the answers, they begin to lose power, they lose financial gain. It's
all related to that, keeping power and keeping the financial gain. The other
thing we have to remember is at the very top of the leadership are all
elected officials or appointed officials to come and go with the administrations. It's the
bureaucrats at the lower levels that go on from administration to administration. They're the
ones keeping the secret, and they can keep it from their bosses. I
think the one thing you do, well, how can you keep it from
the president? And I think I've always said, well, if I was
a president, I would call the director of CIA and says, what can
you tell me about UFOs as well as CLASSIF? But I can't tell you,
mister president. And my answer is you're fired, bring your deputy in.
But I think the real answer is, well, mister President, this
information is scattered over a number of agencies. Here. Let me pull together
a comprehensive report for you and we'll get back to you. And somehow that
report never gets written, and pretty soon something happens and the interest wanes and
they can go on to something else. And then pretty soon there's a new
administration in town and we can start all over again. So I think it's
just all of that combined. But I don't think they're moving toward disclosure.
I thought at one time they were, but it's clear that there is no
transparency there bringing in people who have no sense of history of what's going on
to talk about the UFOs. I know that at one point they weren't interested
in looking at the history. They don't want to see anything later than two
thousand and four, two thousand and five. I'm thinking, to understand this
whole phenomenon, you've got to go back to the very beginning and see how
it's gone and how we have come to the point where we're almost going to
hear about it. We're about to hear about it, and then pretty soon,
no, we're not going to hear about it. And we can point
to specific places in the history nineteen forty eight with the estimate of the situation,
and the Chief of Staff of the Air Force says, no, you
didn't make your case. I want it rewritten, taking out the conclusion it
was InterPlaNet. The craft were interplanetary as opposed to interstellar. We go to
nineteen fifty two. We've got ed Rupolt in there working hard to gather the
information, and the next thing you know, the CIA is holding a panel
on the panel says, hey, there's nothing to this, and the attitude
of Project Global changes to not one of investigation, but one of debunking and
one of hiding information. We get to the late nineteen sixties and we have
the Air Force commissioning the University of Colorado to study UFO. But what we
learn now in today's environment, and we have the documentation to prove that,
is that the conclusions were drawn before the contract was signed. A guy named
ed Robert Robert Hitler Robert Hitler, who was a lieutenant girl in the Air
Force, wrote to the Conton Committee and said, here's what we'd like you
to find. That there's nothing to this. The Air Force has done a
good investigation and we should end the project. And lo and behold, we
get down to the end of the project and what do they find. Well,
the Air Force had done a good job, there's nothing of scientific value
to be learned, and Project Blue Book should be closed. And that's what
they did. Yet they continued the investigation under other names, moving on and
then we find out in today's environment they've been actively doing this since for nearly
two decades. So I don't think we're close to disclosure. And I think
they're doing a wonderful job of hiding everything and diverting attention from don't look here,
look over here, where something else is going on. And I think
we're being led down the primrose path. And what's the end goal? That's
that's the most amazing thing, is what is the end goal for this?
Because there's there's got to be some agenda that they have with this. With
this, I'll tell you where it started. I believe December sixteenth, twenty
seventeen, when that Pentagon article came out. I think that's what this is
all about, and just trying to kind of make some type of effort to
make it look like they were actually doing something. I don't know. I
mean, it seems like that that's where all this spawned from. But Martin,
here's the deal. It's just like Kevin said, they don't want to
know nothing before two thousand and four, two thousand and five, which we
know if we look back that far, we know it's not the Chinese because
Pephansmatric said, well, we got to make sure it's not the Chinese.
We got to make sure it's not the Russians. They might have this technology,
we're not aware. That's bullshit, because well, the Chinese needed our
planes in World War Two to defend their country. Don't forget Bill Clinton gave
them technology so they could launch the rockets in the nineties. So that's why
I say, disclosure, Is that anything soon? Martin? Well, there's
also the fact that you just threw me for a loop down because you got
me thinking about something else that's going on this track. The senior moment as
they say, uh, oh, that's a Biden moment. I know,
let's not go there, let's not go there, but uh you know,
I think the bottom line with a ro O is that you know, they're
going to have a new director and everybody's curious. They have a temporary one
right now. Can't remember his name, but everybody is looking to them as
if they're going to have information. Now. If I was on the outside
and I just started looking into this topic and I watched that program last night,
I would just simply say, well, hey, there's time to move
on. There's really nothing. It sounds like they can resolve everything. And
by the way, the spherical UFOs, the orbs or whatever, now they're
they are making drones. So now just disregarding the fact that they've seen them
all the way back since the FOO fighters, now they're just saying, yeah,
that's what that's what people are seeing is possibly you know, it's either
a balloon or a drone. These spherical you know, orb shaped drones now
they have Well, there's something I think that the Pentagon and the intelligence people
are low to address, and that is the simple fact that since the very
beginning, okay, even when we were still in the process, we the
United States of developing atomic warheads, UFOs, food fighters, whatever you want
to call them, had an inordinate interest in our nuclear program, our atomic
program from day one. Kevin mentioned Malstrom. There were several cases in the
United States where these objects came in and interfered with our ICBMs to the point
that literally a number of them became unusable. They had to replace them.
George Knapp, after the fall of the Soviet Union, traveled to the former
Soviet Union and discovered that UFOs also interfered with their nuclear weapons. And this
has been clearly documented. Okay, today probably the majority of the public have
no knowledge of this whatsoever. This is something coming out of the blue,
and I can see some of these people out there going, oh yeah,
right, Well, the fact of the matter is it happened, and the
government does not want to talk about that. Anyone follow up on that one,
Well, I would just say that I think that if an outside force
can disable our retaliatory capabilities, which is the whole thing about Maelstrom, that's
a national security issue. And you can see why the government would want that
covered up. They don't want our competitors in the world to realize an outside
force can influence the capability of retaliatory strike. That makes sense to me.
But you look at other aspects of the UFO phenomenon and there really is no
reason to hide some of the great cases. I think of level Land,
for example, which was nineteen fifty seven. November of nineteen fifty seven were
the objects installed cars. The sheriff said that he'd gotten hundreds of phone calls
on the night of November second. In morning November third of this UFO around
Levelland, Texas, I found out that Air Force officers were actually involved in
one of the cars that the Air Force officer was driving was stalled by the
close approach to the UFO, which is something that had not come out.
I outlined that in a book I cleverly called level Land, But it was
an investigation like that, And so you've got a capability that these things have
manifested that we have no defensive ability to reject. And the other thing you
have to remember, if I was an alien race and I wanted to invade
another planet, I just stand outside the atmosphere and throw rocks at it,
meaning pushing asteroids and meteors down, and if they attack that way, there's
nothing we could do about it. That might be another reason they don't want
to discuss it, because we are so vulnerable in that fashion. So we
look at all of those sorts of things and disclosure makes no sense in the
world today. They don't want to do that because they'll lose power, they'll
lose influence, and I think that's the driving force behind most of what's going
on here, not to mention the fact they really don't have all the answers.
They just know there's visitation going on, but they really don't have all
the answers about it. I personally think that's the biggest part of it.
That they don't have the answers they they may know just part of it,
but I mean one of the things, as you say, you know,
if they've known at least something for a long time, they've got a lot
of explaining to do. And also the fact that they don't know whether they
can protect us from something that's in our skies. I think that's where the
fear, you know, the fear base of this whole thing comes from,
and why they would try to keep it, you know, under cover what
the actual you know, what is going on and kind of brush it away.
And you know, you think of all the different things that they've done
over the years, the Robertson panel in fifty three and stuff like that,
just to try to calm people down, the dal start the ridicule. Okay,
so you're only a fool if you're looking into this. Still that still
goes on, not as much. It still goes on today. If you
go back to nineteen forty seven, one of the headlines that Don Schmitt and
I found in a newspaper it said, you are flying saucers seen in thirty
eight states except Kansas, and the gag was Kansas was a dry state.
You couldn't legally buy alcohol in Kansas at the time, So they are implying
that if you see flying saucers, you of course are drunk, and that
kind of ridicule manifests itself today. Still, let me take you back on
what Kevin Randall said. Here's the thing that gets me is that perhaps maybe
they don't want to find the answers because they're scared of what the answers will
be. Because we've talked about them turning off you have nuclear weapons, but
there's been reports that they've turned the mind. And that's very frightening that they
not only can turn them off, they have been reported to turn the mind.
Now, if they can do that, that that is an absolute national
security threat because there's somebody could turn on a new who's to say next time,
they'll say, well, let's just fire one. I think the other
thing you have to remember is is when you're when you're looking at that heard
of that sort of thing, the national security aspect of it. They don't
want, meaning the government, our government doesn't want our competitors to realize that
our missile defenses can be influenced by outside forces. Uh, they're so supposed
to be immune to that, and yet we have good evidence that it has
happened more than one time. Malstrom was the first one. But I've talked
to missiliers from various bases like Franceasy, Warren, and Shy and Wyoming who
talked about similar things happening there. So it's a widespread phenomena. And at
Chris, your point is very good. If you can turn it off,
you can turn it on, and that's something that we really don't want anybody
else to know. Yeah, go ahead, and I'm sorry, Mark,
No, I'll go finished the thought I was going to kind of change a
little. No, I'm saying I think because of those situations like that,
there's probably people in the Pentagon say, if we put our head in the
sand, because they've done it before, if we put our head in the
sand, maybe it'll just go away and we don't have to worry about it.
Well, the one thing you have to look at is back in nineteen
forty seven, they were very concerned about what was going on, and slowly
that concerned evaporated because the invasion force never happened. There was no really consequence
of the appearance of the flying saucers, and here we are nearly eighty years
later, still nothing has happened, so they feel kind of comfortable in this
idea. Well, if it was going to happen, it would have happened
by now, so we can just sort of ignore the problem, at least
publicly ignore the problem. So Mario Woods, I've had him on my show
a couple of times, and he was in the Air Force in security and
he was at Ellsworth I think that's in the Dakotas. And what had happened
there many times after during a UFO sighting, and you don't hear much about
this, was that a warhead would go into launch mode. So he would
take their truck, their security truck, and drive it on top of the
launch door that gets blasted off, put it in neutral, and leave it
and hoping that if the thing went into launch mode, the blast will go
up and the truck might fall in and jam the missile and make it a
non launch. This happened many times, so so there are there are sometimes
that they were messed with, but none of them ever launched, that's the
bottom line. But there was that's a real interesting case because he he showed
up when there was all the alarms are going off, and there was a
big orb over one of the missile heads and uh, one of the I
don't know the launch sites, I guess you'd call it. And well,
let's look at what would happen if if one did get launched. M okay,
terrible, that would open up Pandora's box if we launched one, or
if the Russians launched one or the Chinese. My god, even today North
Korea purportedly has an ICBM capability with noakes. What would happen everybody ultimately would
end up launching, and what would happen to the planet. The planet would
in essence be destroyed. Now, if those people, in fact, those
people, those entities, those visitors, if they do have an interest in
planet Earth, and obviously they must have some kind they don't want to see
the planet destroyed. So yeah, there there's there's there's a dichotomy there.
I have thought about what in the world is truly happening? Hmm, I'm
not sure. I Dan, we talked about this before. I don't think
they give a damn. I really because if they really cared a lot,
they I think they would maybe do a lot better job of helping us.
I mean, everybody says, oh, you know, the aliens, they're
kind, they're pe I haven't seen any of that. I'll tell you that
we talked about it on your show, and I will tell you that I
haven't seen anything that they've done that one would would help our planet. Well,
you know, I've been banging away at this since the eighties, and
the one thing that I've heard from I couldn't begin to tell you how many,
how many people, and from all walks of life, there are more
than one group purportedly that have been coming here. It's kind of like we're
just off the freeway, off ramp. Okay, planet Earth is just off
the freeway. And I was informed that a number of these groups are very
benign. They're tilted kindly toward human beings. Others are here simply as a
matter of scientific curiosity. Let's go to the zoo and see what the animals
are doing. But I was told there is one, at least one group
that have an imnical hatred for humanity. Now I could never quite figure that
out. I mean, my god, we can barely get out into space
today by all accounts, what could they possibly have against us until I had
a really long involved conversation with Ingo Swan. Now, Ingo Swan, for
those of you who may not be aware of him, was the man that
designed the protocols for the CIA and DIA's Stargate program. Okay, and it's
a long involved story. I'm not going to go into all of it now,
but the bottom line is all human beings have, to a certain extent
a psychic talent. Now, Chris, and I will tell you that as
cops, as police officers, when we were out on the street, often
we'd get what we would call a hunch or my gut would tell me,
am I right, Chris, Oh yeah, sixth sense. We just kind
of like something right with this. Yeah, it's psychic talent. And according
to Swan, this group of ets I will call them that are visitors see
that as a solid threat because they have a very strong, according to Swan,
psychic talent. Perhaps that's part of the equation. But uh, you
know, hey, look, not not all of them are are in it
for our you know, for our blood, but but there apparently there are
some so well, I could I could tell you that if you're abducting people
and you're taking stuff from their body without their permission. If you're doing all
that type of stuff, that's not that's not you know, there's no consent
to that. You know, some people call it an abduction or whatever experience.
That's what did you tell that? By the way, I'd love to
tell Steve Greer a lot of things, I'll tell you that, but I
will tell you I call it kidnapping an assault. If you take me without
my permission and float me through a wall and it started taking stuff from my
body without permission, that's they're treating me like they would treat a dolphin or
a seal or a whale like we do on this planet. I'm nothing more
than a specimen of them, and to me, that's not right. Hmm.
Well, let's let's get back a little bit more to how we think
this whole thing is going with do I want to say, transparency with our
government when it comes to this topic. Kevin, you mentioned, you know
what we've heard all the way along, and it seemed to me, like
you just said when we were talking about this in the beginning, that it
did seem to me like, wow, we were really this is a real
exciting time to be involved in this topic because it seems like, you know,
the scientists are now getting that's something we didn't have before. Science is
really looking at this seriously. A lot of people in science are and it's
because of that article, you know, I believe. But in that regards,
do you think that there still could be a possibility that we're heading in
the direction of knowing more with all the scientists involved, And that's directed at
you, Kevin Well the problem Avid Lobe is looking for probes, probably without
any kind of organic component to it. When I talked to him about that
am he's talking about them sending out these these probes around the galaxy that would
take tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of years to get to their locations.
So he's moved in that direction. We have SETI, which is I
guess a scientific endeavor and an attempt to find radio signals from another civilization.
And I've always wondered, well, maybe they've advanced beyond radio signals and they
don't use that radio anymore, and so we're kind of looking for for nothing
there. And on the other side of that coin, do we really want
the aliens to be looking at our radio signals? That would include programs like
Laverne and Shirley, you know about the two poor girls from Milwaukee. You
get an idea of the level of our intelligence in that direction. I think
that when we look at the idea of moving toward disclosure or more openness about
it. Look at the report Congress mandated they do a report, and when
it finally dropped in June of was it two thousand and two or twenty twenty
one, When it finally dropped, it looked like a poor high school report
is what eighteen pages. I said, Well, we've been doing this and
we've been doing that, and we haven't really found anything. We've got one
hundred and forty four reports and we only solved one and then we've got to
do another one in six months. But that really didn't happen. And now
we're to the point where, yeah, we're doing these reports, but if
you look at the reports, there's still nothing to them. It's always the
same thing. What we plan to do is investigation. And we've gotten all
these cases, and we're working with these other agencies and we're designing forms and
we're designing reporting protocols and that sort of thing, but we're not learning about
any of the cases, we're not learning about what they're finding. Instead we
get diverted into other things. And so I think it's just all a big
distraction until public interest wanes in the topic and they can go back undercover.
There's other people besides AVI, you know, involved, There's there's a lot
of scientists involved this that you know where. But then again, I don't
know what type of research they're actually doing, you know, how far they're
getting with their different types of detectors. Some of them have talked about that,
but but I haven't seen I've seen the interest. I haven't seen any
real forward movement. You know, there's equipment that they've been using, you
know, to detect things, but I just don't know how much they are
seeing and how much they can use, you know, when it comes down
to the data that they always talk about. One of the things Kirkpatrick said
over and over again last night, as I'll follow wherever the data and the
evidence takes me, no matter what, and so and I think that's a
very good approach. But I don't think that I think that, And I
should say that I know that he's been told things, but that you know,
what are really important. It has to do with For instance, I
just mentioned Mario Woods. He did a four hour testimony with them with AA
r O and told them everything he's told me, and we're talking beings and
everything. But here's the problem. It's like, Okay, they can take
his testimony, but that's not evidence, and that's we don't that's the problem
with the whole thing to get the hard evidence. It's always been such a
problem, and I think that's the witness testimony is not is not covering it
enough, according to you know, the people that are in Aro and the
Pentagon, and that goes down to my paper. Okay, there is a
core secret about the UFO UAP phenomenon and it is covered enclosed by a special
access program. You don't get any more ultra top secret than that. And
unless you are on their bigot list, that's the list of people that are
authorized to deal with this actual real information. Ah, you're going to get
is bullshit. Okay. Admiral Thomas Wilson discovered that. And I don't care
how much he denies the report that names him in it. Okay, he
is required by law to lie about that. The SAP even acknowledging you know,
there is an SAP would put him in violation of federal statue. Okay,
so he's got no recourse except to lie lie lie, And any of
those people that have any real knowledge about this are going to lie lie lie.
They have to Hmmm. I have a question for the entire group,
because this has been plaguing me. Why would Sean Fitzpatrick leverrow what he's got
the greatest think about this. He's working on the greatest question in the world.
Are we alone in the universe? And he supposedly he should be able
to have David Brush says he doesn't, but I would think that he would
have unbelievable information coming into it. So if you're working on probably one of
the most important questions in the world, and you've got, you know,
money, you've got govern and stuff, why do you leave? Why did
he Why did he leave? Kevin He's been he's being pushed out, and
I imagine that I'm getting to that, but it's all but it's all speculative
because we really don't know. We know that several weeks ago somebody else was
appointed over him. He's still the director, but there's somebody else that now
is sort of in charge. And then he says, well, I'm going
to retire now. So he's being he's being forced out. But it may
be that they feared that he was going to leak things into the public arena
that they didn't want leaked into the public arena, and so the way to
do that is force him out. And I don't know what kind of pressure
they might have applied to do that. And we've got the the people talking
about him not doing a good job, and then they he's now going to
retire. Well, he's been doing a wonderful job. And if you listen
to him talk in the various programs that he's been on, and I've sat
through some of the briefings and in front of Congress or the Senate that we
could watch on through the internet, he never really gave any information about what
was being found. It was always about what, we're going to do this,
and we're moving toward getting this agency to provide us with information and that
sort of thing. It was never about, well, we were looking at
these things and you know, we're really kind of stymied here. We don't
know what's going on, but we've got these wonderful cases. And now they're
talking about how they've solved virtually all the cases that have come to them,
so we but but the real point is we do not know because they're not
being transparent, and that's the real crux of the matter. You were mentioning
the scientific involvement. I've been reading a book about UFO witnesses, and there's
a large number of people involved in the scientists sciences talking about eyewitness testimony and
the reliability of it and how that really is not the best way to conduct
science. You need something that's reproducible, you need something you can take into
the laboratory, and somebody seeing an object in the sky isn't really great science.
And you can draw as much information out of them as you can,
but their memories are all colored by the environment around them. And I have
to take to mention the name but Don Menzel, the great UFO debunker who
was asked to review the Air Force Project Blue Book form on reporting a UFO,
and he says, you've left out an important question, which is did
the witness wear glasses? And was the glasses on at the time of the
sighting? And I'm thinking that's really a germane question. You've got somebody who
wears glasses and see something they can't identify, you've got to know that what
their eyesight is like and how it may have affected their perception of what they're
seeing. So we we have science going on, but it always, it
seems to me, it's more of a debunking nature. Here's what you guys
are doing wrong, not how here's what you've done right, and here's the
cases that are important, as opposed to here's the cases that we have solved
by by looking at them scientifically. So you know, the point is,
yeah, there's more science going on, but it's always sort of directed away
from the idea that there's alien visitation. SETI seti's looking for intelligent life out
there. Well, if we're being visited, they don't have to look very
far. But I said that, sorry, sorry about that. I was
just gonna say, they just don't want to hear about UFOs. They're not
interested in that at all. They and they just got what to two hundred
und fifty million, fifty million donor a quarter of eight billion dollars to continue
their work, and and some of it seems to me that it's just out
of date, looking looking at the wrong looking for the wrong thing in the
wrong places, and there's other ways we could be looking for the intelligence rather
than looking just listening for radio signals. So, but that's just my I
think they do. I think they do more than that now, but I'm
not really sure. I don't know if they actually look at the techno signatures
or if that's just like the James Web. I'm not sure, but I
think they're they're doing more than just radio signals. But I had that conversation
with che Seth Shostak from SETI, and I said, you know what if
they're right here and you're looking everywhere and they're right here. Uh. He
did not want to hear that, and he had an answer for everything immediately
he was he was ready. He's a real passive, aggressive guy. Yeah.
Yeah, I'll say so, we have about six minutes before we go
into break. And when you were talking, don I think it was you
that we talked about special access programs of these private entities. Are they part
of the government. Well, from what I understand, Martin, the recovered
material, and by all accounts we certainly have recovered material was then farmed out
to aerospace corporations. Okay, Now, the Thomas Wilson thing all right.
When he was requested by a number of people, including an astronaut several other
people to look into this. When he was still head of the da he
went back to the Pentagon. Somebody pointed him in the direction Venerospace company out
here in California. Now I don't know which one it was. I have
a very strong suspicion of which one it might have been. I'm not going
to name them, but he called them up. They wouldn't talk to him
on the phone. They said they could only speak to him under absolute you
know, covert means. He flew out, purportedly to the coast out here,
went to this corporation. They took him into a secure vault and he
asked them his questions. Purportedly, the security supervisor pulled out their bigot list,
looked in Wilson's name was not on it, told him, sorry,
we can't talk to you about anything, and politely said goodbye to Admiral Thomas
Wilson, the the guy in charge of the DIA. He was not a
happy camper, and by all accounts, when he went back he was ready
to raise some particular hell until somebody pulled him aside and cautioned him about what
could happen to him before he finally retires from the government. Cooler heads prevailed
and he let the matter drop. But if in fact that's true, and
private corporations, and I personally think that's exactly what they've done with this material,
are now the people that are actually in charge of this and among other
things, they have no worries. They don't have to respond to foyer requests
or anything else because they are private and they are the people that they have
at this point the keys to the kingdom. Well, how could this be
like say, generational, Like let's say we only got about two and a
half minutes left for the break, but how could this be generational? Just
to carry on? Like to say, it's a corporation of private corporation and
they'd be housing this stuff for like decades. There is something else that we've
got to take into account. Okay, Back in forty seven, among several
other things, after the Roswell event, the CIA came into its existence.
The United States Air Force broke away from the US Army Air Corps. It
became its own service entity, and the National Security Act was enacted. Now
that is truly the scary part because under the National Security Act, if something
or someone is deemed to be a threat to national security, anything can be
used against this individual or entity, up to and including premeditated murder. Now
I could see a private corporation whacking somebody much quicker even than the government.
Chris, would you agree with that? Well, David Grusha said, basically
said that, hey, murder has been been committed. Well, he asked,
he brought it up. He says that people over this topics have been
killed. Now, so generational. You got somebody that's retired, and they
saw where all the bones are. I could easily understand them taking somebody like
that out before they would have a chance to talk. All right, Well,
we got to go to break, so hang in there. After these
commercials will be right back with more oops. Sorry about that, everyone,
My camera, my camera, there's my camera. Welcome back. Here we
are again UAP crossfire. We got Chris, Don Kevin and I Martin Willis.
And one of the things I wanted to start off with is and also
in that roundtable or whatever it was last night that I watched with Kirkpatrick,
he was asked by a moderator, are any of the people involved in aro,
we understand the looking for signatures that maybe Russian, maybe Chinese or any
of our adversaries. Is anyone there in aar looking at this for the possible
signature of extraterrestrial And he quickly said no, just like that, And I
thought that was pretty interesting myself. But he did say, you know,
he went on to say that that's up to the academics and the scientists on
the outside that I guess they're contracting with. That's what I took out of
it, and they need to do like peer reviewed papers on how something like
that would look like, how would something like like that look like. He
also said one thing that I thought was pretty interesting is that, and I
have to agree in a way, you know, it makes sense, is
that, you know when people are saying, well, this thing just defies
physics, and he's saying, no, it doesn't. You know, it
just defies what we basically know. And that's I do agree with that,
that's probably true. But he's saying there's theories for every type of physics that
there possibly is. But I don't. I still think there may be unknowns
in physics. But still the bottom line is he He basically saying that there
is really nothing that we're going to look at as far as the possibilities of
extraterrestrial in this program that they're doing. Any thoughts on that, anyone,
Well, I would have to say that, once again, we're dealing with
the Pentagon and intelligence agencies, dog and pony sex show. Okay, Look,
we would know. I would think we have one of the most extensive
intelligence gathering operations ever. I mean, there is a midrid of different groups
within the federal government that collect and analyze intelligence, all right, not just
the CIA, not just the DIA, not just the NROO, not the
NSA. There's a ton of them, and they would know if the Russians,
the Chinese, or anybody else had this advanced technology, they would know
it. So what does that leave us with? Okay, it leaves us
with in my book, one of three possibilities. Number one extraterrestrial, all
right, that's the most obvious. But the second one that we've got to
take a look at is the possibility of inter dimensional travel from a different dimension,
a different universe. And the third, and this is something that I've
only begin begun to consider, probably in the last ten to fifteen years,
the remnants of a very advanced human civilization that abandoned the planet for a while
at the end of the Ice Age, the Younger Driest event, when much
of the planet became uninhabitable after that catastrophic thing that happened, but eventually came
back and may now be living among other places under the oceans or even underground.
So there are three possibilities that I have personally looked at, and any
one of those three could conceivably be the secret behind these unexplained machines traveling in
our skies. So this guy, the way, he just arbitrarily pooh poohed
that, Well, I don't know about you guys, but that tells me
tons and they still don't want to talk about aliens, anything else but aliens,
because if they talk about aliens, then once again Pandora's box becomes open,
and they don't want to deal with the fallout from that. Well,
he tried to put a spin on it last night, Kirkpatrick, that is,
he said that if it was extraterrestrial, it would have been so much
easier and so much safer than our adversaries. And to me, I know,
to me, it was like, why uh, because extraterrestrial would be
a total unknown, their intentions, their capabilities, the double speak, and
the obscucation, okay, and quite frankly, the pure bullshit of their position.
Hmm yeah, Chris, what do you think of that? Well,
all right, here's what I think. They know it's not the Russians,
and they know it's the Chinese, but they're using narratives so they can get
money. If you're going to say it's Aliens and and and put that out
there like that, I don't. I don't think they want to do that
just yet, but I do know they want money. And I think that
if you kind of love, well, the Russians may have this technology,
we got to catch up, you know, the Chinese may have this technology.
We got to catch up, and it'd be so much easier if it
was them. But we just don't know. We don't know if it's Aliens.
Got so maybe it's the Russian Chinese. Send us more money and so
we could do more. I think money has to play a part into this
whole disc disclosurely because we have changed the narrative. We have gone seventy years
and said they don't exist. We don't know what's flying around the skys and
we could care less to all of a sudden, it's a threat. It's
a threat to national security. It's a threat to our airspace, it's a
threat to our ships. And they're moving the agenda that I don't like because
once you start that going down that road, there's some bad things that can
happen. And I think this is all a playbook for a final outcome,
and I don't like what I think the outcome might be. Mister Randall,
what do you think looking at it from a point of view? I think
Kirkpatrick's point of view is they're too sophisticated to talk about it being aliens,
even though they may be looking for aliens, and they disguise that by suggesting
we're not looking for that sort of thing. But if he's going where the
evidence takes him, I think eventually he would have to have gone to that
location. There's no way around it. So it may be that they're looking
at it as a way of we're going to eliminate the prosaic now before we
get to the exotic, and by doing that we end up at the place
we want to be. I think the place they want to be is to
be able to say, well, there's nothing to it and you all can
go home, there's nothing to see here, move along type thing. But
the fact that he would say, well, we're really not looking for aliens
makes sense to me. Even if they are looking for aliens, but I
think what they're really looking for is I think Chris kind of hit it at
this what our competitors in the world are doing. I'm more worried about that
than aliens, because, as I said, if we go back to the
beginning of the modern era of UFO, and that would be actually with the
food fighters has been going on for quite a long time, and there has
been no overt hostile action that we're aware of. It seems to me that
most of the problems we run into is accidental injuries of people who were approached
too close to the UFO or the UFO approach to approach too close to them,
with some notable exceptions. I think Don alluded to that at one point,
but I just think that that comment is something that the government official would
say to a keep away from the ridicule factor and be knowing full well that
if you're looking for these sorts of you're studying unusual phenomena. Whatever the source
may be, you'll eventually get to where you want to go. You know.
One of the things that Chris just mentioned was the money. And I
think that's really important because that's, you know, the old saying, follow
the money. I think that goes all the way back to Watergate. But
really, when you think about it, NASA's fund funding for looking at the
UAP topic was one hundred thousand dollars. I mean, that's like a lunch
break money for them, you know. So, I mean, I don't
think it's another thing. You know, we haven't talked about NASA, but
it is another thing that I don't think they're really I don't believe that they're
really taking it seriously. I don't know what anyone thinks about that on this
panel. I noticed the same thing when NASA had their big meeting. Whenever
it was I sat through the whole darn thing, and again it was more
of this, we're going to do this, we're going to do that.
But it really didn't seem that they were taking it seriously. They're not really
interested in this. They have other priorities that they're more interested in, and
this is sort of a diversion to them something they really don't want to be
engaged with again because of the ridicule factor. And I would think that if
we were able to demonstrate and interstellar spacecraft that actually visited Earth, the NASA
budget would explode because now we know it's possible. At this point, we
sit here and we say, well, we know interstellar fight is really impossible
because the speed of light is the limiting factor and all of that. Well,
what if they figured out a way to defeat that? And once you
know something is possible, you begin to look at look for it. But
if you think it's impossible, you're not even going to try. So I
would think that they would want to explore this because of the possibility that it
would increase their budgets. But I think that they look at it as something
that's just a diversion and they really don't want to be caught up in the
UFO phenomenon right in NASA. NASA has been disingenuous for a huge part of
their existence. And I'm just going to mention a couple of things. Number
One, back in the sixties and we all were there, Okay, we
were youngsters, but we watched I watched Project Mercury as a kid, and
boy, I'll tell you what I was excited. I watched Gemini, I
watched Apollo, and of course Apollo at that time was the crown jewel.
We were in a desperate race with the Soviet Union to see who could get
to the Moon and return safely first. Well we did it. And during
that period of time, if you will recall, and I'm sure a lot
of this stuff today is online can be tracked down, there were plans galore
about what we were going to do after we got to the Moon. There
were things like lunar colonies being planned. There were things like lunar manufacturing because
there are a lot of processes in that much much less g environment up on
the Moon that we could do faster, easier, cheaper. There were talks
of placing military forces on the Moon. We went there six times. We
had one mission that thank god we didn't but we almost lost the astronauts on
and then suddenly we pulled the plug on it period. And NASA's explanation was,
well, you know, we've been looking at the American public. They
now see these lunar missions as routine. They lost interest. So we're going
to cancel it. Now. I don't know about you, guys, but
I've heard buckets of bullshit before, but that one took the top billing for
me, all right. And we had future missions planned, We had the
equipment, including rockets built, We had the astronauts trained and ready to go,
and they didn't. Then we started hearing rumors that there was another presence
on the Moon well after December of seventy two. Okay, the only thing
we did was going to close Earth orbit with everything up through the Shuttle missions
in the eighties. But then something strange happened, guys, something strange,
and Kevin Randall, will I think acknowledge what I'm about to say, all
right, because he served in an intelligence capacity, as did I in Vietnam.
We suddenly went back to the Moon with the Clementine mission in nineteen ninety
four, and Clementine had two objectives. Number one was to a close asteroid
flyby which they had to cancel because of technical problems, and go back to
the Moon and completely and entirely remap and rephotograph the entire Moon. They took
the BMOD okay, ballistic missile people took two points and NASA NASA was a
part of this two point five million photographs of the moon. Okay, how
many of those have ever been released? They were all classified. Even other
elements within the Clementine hierarchy were not permitted to see these photographs. Now,
Kevin will tell you, and I'll tell you that in war time, okay,
we'll have reconnaissance missions that will overfly something that's interesting and will photograph it,
go back, analyze the photographs, then perhaps wait a little bit,
go back and rephotograph it again to find out what changes may have been made.
Gentlemen, I am convinced, all right that the hierarchy, the people
in the know already knew there were and is a presence on the Moon.
They got photographs of it during Apollo. But Clementine, at least in part,
was to go back completely rephotograph the moon and find out what, if
any changes would be. Now, what could be more impactful to national security?
And if you get right down to what world security, the knowing that
there is probably an extraterrestrial presence that's been on our moon for a long time,
and what the hell are they up to? Gentlemen, do you have
any thoughts about that? Kevin throw the ball to me. Huh yeah,
oh yeah, he mentioned your name a few times. Don is right about
one thing, and intelligence work. You photograph, you do g Reconiz's missions.
You photograph, you go back to see what has changed, to see
what's going on, and that sort of thing. It is curious that we
made the effort to go to the Moon in the sixties, made the effort
to talk about what was going to happen next. We were going to go
to Mars. We should have been on Mars literally decades ago. And yet
they said, well, as Nod has mentioned, the American public was against
it. Well, you know, we spent four hundred million dollars to go
to the Moon. I'm thinking, yeah, but the money didn't go.
It still remained here. It was put back into the economy and various aspects
of it. It wasn't like we burned up the cash. But there's curious
things that have been going on in the Moon, and it makes perfect sense
to take a look at it, especially on the dark side of the Moon,
where we rarely get a glimpse of what is happening there. And I
think they're finding things about the Moon that we didn't expect. But I just
don't understand that. And I heard what Don had talked about too about the
Clementine program and that literally millions of photographs that you had had to have special
clearance to see the photographs. What possibly could you have seen on the Moon
that would have to be classified right in the photographs? I mean, there's
no reason for anything to be classified there. You would say, well,
maybe it has to do with the equipment used, and they may gather some
sort of information about our capabilities of photographing stuff from long distance away, And
you're thinking it really wouldn't tell you much of anything, if the pictures of
the Moon wouldn't tell you much of anything. So I don't understand that whole
part of NASA classifying it and keeping that information away, not just from the
general public, but from their own people. In some instances they just didn't
have the need to know. So it's really a conundrum in that respect.
Now doesn't the Moon have isn't helium three that's supposed to be something that they
could actually mine and use? Yes, fusion reaction, Yes, yeah,
I mean I'm surprised that no one's looked more into doing some type of mining,
you know, you know, to talk about mining asteroids, you know,
with all the metals and whatever, and one of the things, you
know, I mean, you think about if they say, like an asteroid
is full of diamonds and platinum and gold or whatever it is. But anytime
you make something I mean, I know I'm going way off topic here,
but if you could harness an asteroid and it had like a million pounds or
a billion ounces of gold, what happens to gold? Right? If gold
is plent plentily available, or if it's contained in one area you know,
would have to be I mean, it's so bizarre how we you know,
we we place values on things and when it has to do with rarity and
stuff like that. But again, I'm going way the hell off topic.
Has nothing to do with UFO. Someone bring me back quick. How about
if I asked Kevin Randall this because I wanted to get this in before.
Kevin, you're really in the hot seat tonight. Yeah, you'll get able
to sit back and just kind of enjoy the conversation. YEA, No,
that's not the way this show rose. We get out of each other.
Next time. Here's here's one of the things you were you were saying,
I remember you say, well, we don't think they're hostile, so we
don't really give it much thought. But listening to David Grush, there was
two things that stuck out with David Grush's interview with News Nation. One,
while they were talking to him, they asked him about Roswell and he said,
I am not authorized to talk about Roswell. Right, you allude to
the fact that he was told leave that subject alone, which tells me he
was briefed before he went on went on any type of news to tell all
this. He was he was instructed that there's certain things you're not going to
talk about. The second thing is he actually did say and and nobody has
really did a big thing about it, but he said there's been hostile encounters
with UFOs. He actually said that, and I was absolutely amazed when he
said that. But he didn't get the specifics. David has never been with
specifics, not certain things. So my question to you is, sir,
what do you think of David Grush, the disclosure of what he says,
because they're back on disclosure Martin, the disclosure of what David Brush said,
and how credible do you think as a professional in uthology David Grush is.
Let me preface this by saying, I really hesitate to say anything nasty about
anybody anymore, because it always comes back to Hautbaker, even when I'm right.
But the problem with Crush is he didn't say anything we didn't already know.
He talked about He talked about this Italian UFO crash from nineteen thirty three,
which had been investigated by some of my colleagues in Italy two decades ago,
and decided it was a hoax. And I'm thinking, how credible can
this guy be if he isn't aware of that investigation. He alluded to Roswell.
But good lord, if you were talking, if you were pretending you
knew something from the inside, you'd have to mention Roswell because everybody knows about
this. Was it twenty years ago? Something like that. Russ estes and
DoD Ecker knows. Russ said to me at one point, nobody knows what
Roswell is. You ask ten people on the street, is what's the big
deal with Roswell? They're not going to know today. You say, what's
you know? You asked ten people on the street, what is Roswell?
They're going to talk about aliens. It's in the public ether around us,
so he had to mention Roswell. But he's given us absolutely nothing. Russia's
giving us absolutely nothing that we can look at. He doesn't name name,
he doesn't provide hints of where things might have happened. He says, well,
there's twelve, twelve incidents. I'm wondering who he's talking to, because
I can point to people that I've been in contact with who talk about various
aspects of this, and I know that they're not telling me the truth,
that they've heard something from someone else and they've just kind of incorporated it into
their stories. I want to know who he's talking to. I want to
know what they've told him. I want to know what the incidents are.
If he says, for example, I take the Las Vegas alleged with Las
Vegas crash from nineteen sixty two, which I think everybody knows. I was
sort of the authority that brought that into the public arena. I am now
convinced that that was a very bright meteor and it's separated from the Utah aspect
of it. There's two separate things going on there. But if you mentioned
something like that, That to me would damage his credibility because I know things
about that that aren't general knowledge. I think that to understand what he's talking
about, we've got to know what the sources are. We've got to know
who the names of the names of the people who he's talking to, how
he came in contact with that information. And I know, Don you're going
to be aware of this as well as I am. You look at the
shadow box that with the picture of him, He's got his medals on it.
The highest medal he's got is a Meritorious Service medal. That doesn't suggest
to me any comment. Well, I wasn't going to say that, but
yeah, but I was thinking of the higher level of those kind of service
medals that you would get if you were really on the interior, and once
you've completed the assignment, then they give you the Distinguished Service medal, they
give you one of the higher meritorious service medal. Clearly he has no combat
awards, and that, I mean, that wasn't that important to me.
I just noticed that he didn't have some of the higher level service medals that
you would expect him to have. He was that inside of what was going
on So there are little things like that that bother me about his testimony in
his story that could be turned around by a couple of simple sentences providing us
with additional information we could check out and we say, okay, yeah,
this guy is credible. Right now, I really don't know. Like I
said, I'm bothered by this repeated mentoring of this nineteen thirty three thing in
Italy which makes no absolutely no sense. Nevin, there is one thing.
There is one thing, one thing, rush, one thing, one thing.
After he went public, there was within the Pentagon a concerted effort to
amge him. Somebody released his medical records and showed that, in fact,
he may be on the the spectrum as far as optism. Okay, Uh.
They tried to embarrass him, They tried to basically shut him down.
And the guy, to his credit, came out and said, yeah,
well this is what happened, and this is how it went on, and
yeah, at one point I did seek some psychiatric counseling. But you know
who today couldn't benefit from some of that. So well, but the point,
but the real point is, you know, somebody tried to embarrass him,
but it may have been just to divert the conversation from what he was
talking about because it was going in a direction they didn't want it to go.
But I don't know what sort of inside knowledge he might have, if
he has any inside knowledge, and none of that has been demonstrated. When
you get to this pacifis, he always falls back onto that, well,
I can't talk about this, We'll talk about that in the classified session.
That doesn't help us understand what's going on, and that tells us that we're
not moving toward transparency or disclosure, because every time we get up to that
point, it's I can't talk about that. Now I'll have to We'll have
to do it in the classified session, and none of that information ever comes
out. We have the same thing with Kirkpatrick, with him running arrow talking
about we're going to do this, we're going to do that, but we
don't get any of the information. We do not understand what's going on.
We hear hints about it, but we don't get the truth, and we
can't evaluate what is really happening without that information. So uh, with Grush,
I just don't know about that. I look at some of the things
that worry me about his military background and that sort of thing. I think
if people looked into my military background, they would probably be disturbed about it
too. But I just I just don't know. I just don't know because
we don't have sufficient information to draw a good conclusion on the viability of that
information and the source of the information. That's the other credible thing that we
do not know. Where did he get this information? Well, I talked
to these people who saw this, that and the other thing. I've talked
to people who claim to be on the inside. We're telling me all these
things. You can't talk about this, but here's where we are. And
without being able to verify that information or know who he's talking to, we
really cannot properly evaluate that information and where he was going. When I heard
about the Italian thing, the very first thing I thought of was someone is
feeding him disinformation. But then I started thinking about it. At what end
would someone do that? I mean, what would be the whole purpose of
it? And why would he? I think, what's happened, and he's
come in to contact people, people who really believed the Italian thing, And
you look at some of the information out there on the internet about it,
you can see some people are not are unaware of how it had been debunked
long ago, so they're still clinging to the to that that story. And
I think he got it from somebody that he trusted, who may have may
have had a high level position who had come across it and believe the story.
But that doesn't make it true. And we don't know who that guy
is, and we don't know how he got the information. That's the problem.
We don't know what the his source is. Now there's been speculation and
I don't know if I should even say this or not, but supposedly one
of the people is Eric Davis. Now I don't know if that's one of
the people he's talked to. Then I don't know what that happened. Boy
got splain and to do Lucy Well. And that's the thing I have heard,
and again I do I have not been able to verify it. I
heard that he was out at Skinwalker Ranch and that would put him into contact
with certain people whose credibility I find less than than exciting. But what another
another thing I've heard out there too? Yeahs outfit but and then that's well
known. But oh okay, but but that would put him into contact with
certain people whose credibility I find wanting. And if they're telling him stuff that
they believe and he believes they're telling him the truth, then we're off.
We're off on a snipe hunt. There's nothing there to be to be found,
but we just but we don't know that, you know, Jerry Clark.
I mentioned this to Jerry Clark, and he said, we'll be very
careful with that information, you know, because is it verified? And I
said, no, it's not verified. We don't know. But if he
was at Skinwalker Ranch, we could That allows us to speculate about who he
may have come in contact with and the credibility of that information he was there.
Then we're at the point where some of those people who were involved with
that I find less than credible, and that makes his information less than credible.
And he's probably he's probably telling the truth as he believes it, but
that doesn't make it part of our reality, our shared reality. I keep
thinking of that the MythBusters says, I reject your reality and substitute my own.
But he uh, I just I just don't know. I'm I'm very
obviously very ambivalent about that, and I don't want I don't want to do
anything to say anything about him, that is unfair. But talking about you're
talking about his statements, Kevin, and and that's not being unfair because he
has said, well, I talked to this guy and this is what this
guy said, and I saw this paper, but I don't have the paper.
And I saw this picture, but I don't have the picture. And
this may all be true. He may have actually saw this and talked to
him. But you know, as far as intelligence goes Martin, you know
this, and don you surely know this, that he can he can be
just the messenger of an agenda that they want to play. Hey, I'm
going to tell you this, you feed it to the public. I'm I'm
I'm over here in left field that I'm not gonna get involved, but I'll
tell you all these great little things. And knowing his personality because they did,
they didn't they briefed them. They briefed them, So knowing his personality
maybe the way he is, they know exactly what was going to happen or
told him to do this. I'm not saying that the information that he giving
is not what he was told. It just may be not true information by
somebody that's talking to him, like you alluded, Kevin, it could be
just correct that they're feeding us. Well, that's that's that's what I was
saying. And we because we don't know the sources, we're stuck with trying
to figure out whether the information is credible or not. We don't know who
told him that. And I have no doubt he believes what he's talking about,
but you know I don't. I'm in the same boat he is.
I've talked to people, I've seen things, I know things, but I
can't prove any of it. So what good does it do me without the
out the evidence? I saw this document, Well, great, what did
the where's the document? I had an argument with a guy quite a long
while ago, but that said, he operated a Air Force communications center and
he saw documents coming through that center, classified documents about a crash in Sweden
of a UFO back in the nineteen fifties. And I said, yeah,
I've seen them too, and they're part of the Project blue Book files and
it's that hoax about the Spitzbergen crash. And yet the guy had seen these
documents and didn't know the follow up. I guess that was the deal.
He'd seen the document, the original documents that alluded to it and suggested it
was something very mysterious, and when we get beyond that, we realized,
well that that was a hoax that had nothing to do with alien visitation.
In the original story, I think they were talking about the cyrillic alphabet being
on the control panels of the UFO that they'd found, the saucer they had
found. But he had seen these documents and he was convinced because they had
come through the communications center, that they was talking about an Anien spacecraft.
And that's where we are with Grush. We don't know what he's seen,
we don't know who's told him what, and we cannot verify it. We
cannot take it beyond that without any additional information, and I'm very weary,
weary, I'm very wary of that. Now we're supposed to get a report
sometime in twenty twenty four that's going to reach out to all these programs that
may or may not house some type of you know, crash retrieval. I
guess the question I have and like to hear everyone's opinion, do you actually
think I mean, when he first came out with that, I'm like,
I went WHOA. That's really quite a statement to me. But maybe it's
not a crazy statement. I mean, maybe there is crashed vehicles that we
do have. You know, there's something I heard recently that you know that
sounds really interesting, But again I don't know if it's true, so I'm
not going to say it on the air. But I guess the question is,
do you believe that the United States has recovered craft? I don't know
who wants to take that. Well I will because I'm the big Rodswell advocate,
and I think that they had recovered alien materials at Roswell. We have
and I say, Tom Kerry, Don Schmid and I spent a great deal
of time running down leads of the possibility of secret projects, and when they
investigated in the mid nineteen nineties, Air Force investigated the mid nineteen nineties,
had there been a secret project that would cover that event up, I mean
prove the event was something terrestrial, they would have trotted it out. Then
is what would be classified in nineteen ninety five that they were doing in nineteen
forty seven, That technology, whatever it was, would be far out of
date. So I leaned toward the extra trust because we don't have a good
explanation. So yeah, I think the government does have crash retrieval materials.
I don't think there's twelve of them. And if there was twelve of them,
that would imply that we engaged in hostile combat with them and knock them
out of the sky, because I cannot believe that you're an alien race and
you've discovered the secret to flying through interstellar space, which would be a technological
it would be next to magic, and then you arrive on Earth and the
first thing you do is you crash. The numbers just don't make sense to
me. But the Roswell case, because of the work that I've done,
the work that donche Mids done, the work that Tom carry has done,
and the work that others have done on that case, suggests that there is
no good trustrial explanation for it to throw that to me. Says there's one,
and Crush alluded to Roswell, but he also alluded to this Italian thing.
So I don't know what other what the other ten would be. And
I think that's important information too, to know which which ten events is he
talking about? Are there ones that we know about, or is it something
else? I did a book called Crash when UFOs fall from the sky,
and I think there's one hundred and eighteen crash is mentioned in that book.
Very few of them, I would say, our actual alien spacecraft. It
things have been reported, it's single witness stuff, it's it's misinterpreted interpretation of
rocket research, and all kinds of other things in these crash stories, including
hoaxes. But I need to know what those ten cases, other ten cases
are that he alluded to, and we don't know that information. John,
you have mentioned before on this show that you think that that would be the
answer that they were shot down, right, Yeah, I uh, I've
for years, Okay, I followed reports of purported hostilities between UFOs. All
right, I personally think now, you know, I in my paper,
I used Grush's figure of twelve possible recoveries. Now, if you get right
down to it, hey, it doesn't matter if it's eight or fourteen or
six. Okay, I think I feel confident that there have been more than
two. But the bottom line is Kevin made a perfectly valid point. If
any of these are interstellar and they are coming from another star system to this
system, and once they get here they crash, well even in my paper
I said that never made any sense to me. But what would make sense
because I saw it with my own eyes in Southeast Asia a combat where aircraft
in that case, aircraft were knocked out of the sky. So these things,
if in fact there were crashes, and as far as that goes,
that could even include the Roswell event. All right, somebody knocked that down.
So I can remember twenty odd years ago there was a theory being pushed
around that it might have been an experimental radar down at Roswell that caused navigational
problems in this object and it crashed. Well, that never made sense to
me either. But a laser, a heat beam, a missile, that
would make money much more sense. So for whatever it's worth. You know,
one of the things this is a question for Kevin again, Kevin,
because you investigated Roswell. So one of the things I think is really curious
is you know they talk about this metal that they found. They can pick
it up, they can bend it and it pops back into the original position.
Then Marcelle says he can hit it with a hammer and it won't do
anything. Well, there was pieces everywhere, so it kind of like Okay,
this is you know, a type of metal, whatever it is,
that is so incredible and get do so much. Yet they talk about pieces
just in shreds everywhere. It almost doesn't even make any sense with the type
of metal that that can't be damaged with an explosion. Martin, Well,
no, I was gonna have to be I was going to say it.
The craft wasn't made up of just one type of thing. How many different
types of surfaces and metals and things are in your car. So you might
have a piece of metal that's very strong and you hit it with the sledgehammer
and there's no damage to it, and you have another piece of metal that
is thin and you can crumple it up. I mean, it's just various
components making up the total craft. So I was never bothered by the discussions
of various kinds of metal. Bill Brasel talked about the metal that was light
as balsa wood had felt like balsa wood. He said, he got out
his pocket knife, which he used to cut barb wire on and he wanted
to get a scraping on it see if there was any stratification. He couldn't
get a shaving on it. So here's this metal that is incredibly light weight
and incredibly strong. You talked about the what we call the metal with the
molecules with a memory. We talked about that. So we looked at we
looked at all of that sort of thing. And he also talked about,
ah, what he called monophilip fishing line that you shine a light in one
end and it comes out the other. We was talking about fiber optics obviously,
so he had a variety of different kinds of things found. So that
the fact that one is incredibly strong and one you could fold up and it
would unfold itself doesn't mean that it was not a component. There were different
components in the craft. Yeah, I just want to answering Martin's question,
and I know he's dropped off. Hopefully I'll come back in. But as
far as crash retrievals go, I think we have crash retrievals. I think
we've we've had probably more than one. I don't know about twelve. That's
a big figure, Kevin, you know what I mean, to have twelve
of them and not have more of the public knowing. But I do agree
that I think we we've been working on direct energy weapons, exotic weapons.
If you talk to people like Ken Jordan, who was the head of the
Future Army's weapons lab, they've been playing with plasma for years. I know
in the Hudson Valley at Tuxedo Park, Alfred Loomis, who was a billionaire
and a brilliant physicist, had a secret lab there that they were working on
direct energy weapons and all kinds of other different things at that park years and
years and years ago. So is the possibility we had something something to shoot
these things down? Yeah? Do I think we shot down twelve or twelve
crash because I'm in The thing is, if you have the ability to come
late years here at the speed of which they can do and travel through that
the probability of them crashing here is pretty remote. I mean, it just
doesn't make sense for that. Well, I've always said on that you know
what made him crash? And I said, well, maybe somebody pushed the
wrong button, you know, I mean the beings in there may not be
infallible. But the other thing, if there was twelve that crashed here and
we recovered them, what about South America or Africa, or Asia or Europe,
why aren't there similar events there? Yeah, we talk about that,
but we don't have the same kind of evidence for something happening in those locations
that we do for the Roswell case. For example, reports have come out
of Russia. Yes, yeah, but I talked back in the very very
early nineties after the collapse of the Soviet Union, when doctor Marina Popovich came
over and I talked to her extensively through an interpreter. Her English was not
good at all. I speak no Russian. But they had, according to
her, at any rate, they had incidents where these things went down there
now went down. Why I don't know, but they did. They did
suffer crashes. Well, we think about shag Harbor two up in Canada.
But my point simply is this, if they were coming down raining from the
sky, clearly something would have happened in a location where they couldn't cover it
up. You know, Ronald was unique because of the location of the base,
the access to the military, or the military could control access to the
media in the local community of that sort of thing, so it didn't get
out. But what if it had crashed in near New York City or some
other hub where the military couldn't control the information getting out. We'd have a
whole different conversation. And the point simply is, the more crashes you have,
the more likely something is going to happen in a location where they couldn't
possibly cover it up. There would be too many people involved, too many
people would have seen something and that sort of thing. And that's really my
point. It just it just doesn't make good logical sense to me. You've
got to You've got it's got to be when you have the crash, it's
got to be in an isolated location where the government or the military or the
law enforcement can control the information until they can get it cleaned up. And
the more crashes you have, the more likely they are going to be unable
to do that. But Kevin, if we had these I mean, if
we had so many crashes, as they say, when we have so many
whistlebl I mean, let's face it, if by crashers, it's not going
to take five or six people to get this thing. You're going to need,
you know, forty fifty one hundred you know, personnel to get this
craft. Out of those one hundred personnel. If you have that many crash
there'd be a lot more people talking about crashes. Yeah, But I mean,
come on, with the Roswell case, we found an awful lot of
people who were in Roswell. We were very fortunate that Walter HoTT, the
public affairs officer, had created a yearbook in the summer of nineteen forty seven,
so we had basically a list of virtually everyone who is on the base,
and we could we could target them, and we could we could find
people who would be in specific positions to tell us information and we would get
some stories. A guy named Robert Smith talked about how he had been building
crates and they were loading crates on the on the aircraft to fly this stuff
out, but the crates seemed like they were empty because they the material was
so light, late weight. And he talked about a sergeant who had stolen
one of the pieces of memory metal that we talked about and showed it,
showed it around. But of course we don't know who that sergeant was,
and we could never get to get our hands on the metal. But the
real point is you're absolutely right if we the more times we have to deal
with that, the less likely they're going to be able to keep it under
wraps because too many people are going to know. And so that's why I
think there's a limited number of crashes. And on the Soviet Union, don
if they'd had crashes, I can understand them keeping you under wraps because their
society was certainly a lot different than ours. But if you've got crashes in
the Soviet Union and the United States, and you're going to have them in
South America, you're going to have them in Africa, you're going to have
them in Europe, You're going to have them all over the world. And
in that case, something is, something more tangible, is going to leak
than is leaked so far. You know, they said, well they couldn't
keep a secret that long. Well they kept they didn't really keep the secret
Roswell, but they managed to keep enough of it buried that we still argue
about the reality of it. But he agree something fill at Roswell. The
question is what was it? So we've got to look at this totality of
the number of crashes, and we need information about where they happened and who
was involved in it so we can validate the information, and we just have
not been able to get that. I think that the idea of twelve of
them is way too high, given the what that would suggest about the rest
of the world, Kevin. Since we're on Roswell right now, why would
the Army Air Force in the first place announce that it had captured a flying
disc? I mean, why would they just not say nothing? I know
that's not good English, but you get my point. I don't know what
you're talking about, Martin. That's a question that's been pondered. One of
the things that we were told is that they did it on purpose because they
had the lower headquarters, the five to ninth bomb Group in Roswell saying we've
got a flying saucer, and then they divert attention to Fort Worth, where
the higher headquarters, the ate their force is and they say, well,
no, no, it's just it's just a weather blown and so you're kind
of throwing the guys in Roswell under the bus, but you're doing it to
hide the ultimate secret. That's something really important was recovered there. I don't
know if that's that they were I don't know if they were clever enough to
figure that out at the time or not, or or Colonel Blanchard, who
was the base commander. Because of the circumstances that we had been involved with
the big UFO the Flying Saucer craze for about two weeks when Roswell happened and
he says, well, we've now got something that'll prove it. And then
they realized it was something much more extraordinary than they expected and they had to
they had to cover it up. But he was trying to well, we've
got we've got a flying sauce. You don't need to worry about them anymore.
And then it was oh my god, we can't tell them about this.
So I really don't know why Blanchard would have issued the press release.
And contrary to what people have said, the press release had to come from
the from the office of the commanding Officer. I mean, Walter HoTT couldn't
have issued the press release on his own authority, or Jesse Marcell couldn't have
he issued the press release on his own authority. But of course I'll pardon
me. I just say go ahead. Yeah. It's just one of those
sort of enigmas that we don't have a good answer for. All we can
say is, yeah, they did make the announcement, but within three hours
they'd killed the story. If you take a lead debris scattered everywhere in the
debris field. And do you think they thought it might be a flying saucer
because not because of its shape, because obviously it was scattered all over the
place, but because of the odd metal. Is that why did they think
they had a flying saucer? Were? There were three sites. There was
the debris field, which one we always were talking about. There was another
site where some stuff came down, and then there was the impact site where
they found the main main craft of the main the main body of information where
the bodies were located. And that was much closer to Roswell. And I
think that when Brazil came in, he had the medal with him when he
went to the Sheriff's office, and we've verified that through the sheriff's daughter,
Phillis Maguire told us that she had been in the office when it came in.
The sheriff in nineteen forty seven. The sheriff's family lived above the jail
and so the family was in and out of the jail all the time.
In fact, his wife wrote an article called three or four Years in the
County Jail, which was about their experiences as him being the sheriff. keV
Kevin I got a quick question dealing with this years ago, and it was
before he self imploded in Las Vegas in eighty nine. But Bill Moore said,
and of course Bill Moore wrote the first book on the Roswell event,
said that there was a mysterious flu virus that hit the area after this thing
happened. Do you know anything about that? Is that true? Or is
that? Pid? Me, Martin, do you know anything about that?
There? No, I said it interesting. I never heard of it.
Okay, okay, No, I hadn't heard anything like that. And we
we talked an awful lot of people in the area and they never talked about
anything like that. My point was Phi. My point with Phillis Maguire was
she was in the office. So when Braso came into the office, he
had some of the debris with him, and if it had been a weather
balloon, Marcel or somebody at the base would have identified it as such.
But they thought enough of it that they sent that material on to Washington,
d c. And that was on Sunday night before Marcel and Cavot went out
to the Debree field to pick up the debris. So, yeah, the
the the mysterious metals, uh, it was it was strange enough that they
thought that they had a special flight into Washington, d C. With that
stuff. So it's, you know, it's kind of those things we talk
about crashes prior to nineteen forty seven, before Roswell, and I'm thinking if
that had happened, and the Italian thing fits in here, in Cape Girardo
in nineteen forty one, by the way, fits in there as well.
If that had happened, the response by the military would have been different because
they would have known about these things earlier, and they were kind of caught
off guard by what happened by the whole UFO thing starting in June of nineteen
forty seven and the whole Roswell thing. So that suggests to me that there
was not something that preceded Roswell based on that, but the metallic debris that
they found on the field, and Marcel Jesse Marcel both senior and junior,
and other people described it. Bill Brasel described it to us as well,
that it clearly was nothing of terrestrial manufacturer. They might not have known that
right at the time, but they knew it was something strange enough. I'm
surprised that Brasel took it to Roswell as opposed to Alamagordo because his family had
been living in Tularosa during the school year for the kids could go to school.
And Tularosa is right near Alamagordo, which was the Alamagordo Army Airfield.
So I'm not sure why Brazl took it into Rosalo. That's where he took
it, and the sheriff didn't know what it was. Marcelle came out and
looked at it, didn't know what it was, and they arranged for some
of the materials to be shipped to Fort Worth and then on to higher headquarters
on the Sunday afternoon. Gentlemen, we are out of time. Thank you
all so much, Thank you all for listening, and thank you Kevin for
filling in. Thanks Dawn, Thanks Chris, and we'll be back next week
eight pm to ten pm Eastern Time on Thursday. Thanks again,