Welcome to this edition of The High Strangeness Factor. Copyright it on the Paranormal UK Radio Network. I am your host, Steve Ward. On The High Strangeness Factor. Andy Mercer and I have explored many aspects of the paranormal and unexplained with interesting guests, researchers, investigators and authors. We are now in our fifth year. Tonight we have another great guest that I will introduce in just a moment. Andy Mercer cannot be with us tonight, but we have a return visit from Susie Bastill. Susie, welcome back to The High Strangest Factor. Steve, how's it going really good? You were just here on as a guest and now you're here as a guest co host. I don't know if that's a sideways move or to go up and pay or down and pay. I will try going to ask if that was a promotion or demotion. I'm not sure yet. When we're done, I'll check with human resources. So anyway, it was it's great to have you back. And UH, we want to let people know that your show has been up for a couple of weeks. I guess and uh you discussed the UH the infamous Bridgewater Triangle, the hack Amock Swamp, some of the critters that are are supposed to have been seen there, like the puck Wedgies and thunderbirds and so forth. And so I invite people to go back to the High Strangeress Factor on the Paranormal UK Radio Network and check that out. And also you have a blog. Tell us what you're how to. People can find your blog. It's Puckwodgis dot blogspot dot com. Okay, and I'm gonna I'm gonna spell puckwaj jez because it's a rough one. It's p u k w u d g I E. S Poges dot blogspot dot com. Is how you find me? And also you just put up a can if they go to your blog, can they find your YouTube video? Yeah? Absolutely, it's the newest post. There's a link to it. And what's the name of the gentleman you interviewed Bill Russo who is the infamous Puckwagy sighting from the Bridgewater Triangle documentary? Okay, very good? And now you have been on several shows lately. Some are available and some will be available. You want to give us some idea of what people should look for. To find those shows. Yeah, I did Monsters on the Edge with Barnaby Jones two to two paranormal podcasts Beyond the Woodline podcasts, and those are Monsters on the Edge and Beyond the Woodline or both videos on YouTube. Also, I just recorded an episode with Sas Squashers that will be coming out shortly. I'm not sure exactly when, I believe next week, okay, which means that by the time this show airs it might already be out. It might be yeah, okay, that's just the way these things go. And also, you and I just did Mac Maloney's Military X Files, and I'm not really sure when that'll be out. It'll probably be out by the time this one's out, So everybody just be alert and look around, okay. And anything else going on that we should know about, No, I think I have been busy lately. I'm sure I'm missing something, but I think okay, wait, we can always revisit it. Well, yeah, so let's introduce our guest. Dean Bertram has a PhD in history from the University of Sydney, Australia. His doctoral dissertation was titled Flying Saucer Culture, a Historical Survey of American UFO belief. His writings have been featured in a range of publications including forty ten, Times, People Magazine, The Spectator, and The Australian. He hosts the podcast Talking Weird on the Untold Radio network. Dean is also a filmmaker and film festival programmer. He runs Midwest weird Fest and a Night of Horror international film festivals, both based in Auclaire, Wisconsin, and he is currently shooting a feature documentary about Raymond A. Palmer, the Shaver Mystery and the birth of modern UFO belief titled The Man Who Invented Flying Saucers. Dean, Welcome to the High Strangers Factor. Thank you so much much for having me, Steve, and it's great to meet you too, Susie. Well let's see, there's uh, there's so much to cover. And by the way, it's been been great being on your show a few times, so that's always been fun. Oh, you're always one of my favorite guests, Steve. I love having you on. Oh, I appreciate I think we're both we're both kind of on the same wavelength. Now. I don't know if that's good or bad, but we'll let well, let's we'll let Susie decide that later at the end of the show, we'll do an exit interview and I'll give you lady at the end, fantastic. Make sure human resources is on watching every minute. Uh, let's see. I do want to get into Uh. You know, you grew up in Australia and at some point you you came over this way and you live up on the How far up in Wisconsin do you live. I'm kind of in the center of the state. I mean, I say the north Woods were probably the base of the north Woods, but I'm in the middle of nowhere. I leave in a cabin in the woods and it's very different the Sydney, Australia. But I love it here. I love the slower pace in lifestyle. It gives me more time to think and contemplate weird Fortien mysteries. I suppose very good, a good place for it. Now. You just got done with one of your film festivals, right, Yeah, we just wrapped Midwest Weird Fest. It was the eighth Midwest Weird Fest and this year I actually transported a festival that I founded in Sydney back in two thousand and six and have been running there ever since. Called a Night of Horror International Film Festival, and I couldn't really run it adequately anymore. I mean I was still going back when my daughter was first born, but just became harder and harder to do. So I thought, rather than let people continue to kind of manage it there, I'll bring it here. So we ran that festival next to Midwest Weird Fest in a cinema with two screens, which was great. So we had two, both of the festivals running simultaneously and it was just a spectacular year, so much fun. So what happens at one of these festivals? What kind of films do we see? And what kind of a crowd do you have? We have a really healthy crowd. I mean, it's wonderful because in a big city people are so used to being Like in Sydney there was film festivals every week, sometimes it was more than one. But in a city like Euclaire, which is a small college town, which is where I run the festivals, out of the locals who were into that type of cinema, weird cinema, horror cinema, paranormal documentaries, they're i think, super excited to have this type of event in their town. So over the years, more and more people have continued to come. So now I look into the audience, I recognize almost half of the faces as repeat people who continue to come, and so a lot of people come with it. You can get very affordable season passes and so yeah, people come and they can enjoy a range, particularly a Midwest Weirdfest, which also has some horror content, but there's things like paranormal documentaries. We had a fantastic film this year called The UFOs of Suisterburg, which is about a very famous, perhaps the most important UFO wave and flap in the Netherlands. We had an incredible film from the UK called The Pocket Film of Superstitions, which is what it sounds like. It looks at an array of superstitions and a kind of a irreverent tone and in a very dreamy, mesmerizing type manner. And then a wide range of independent small documentaries which are just shorts and various you know length other programs, and also a lot of just I suppose genre and speculative and underground type content. We had everything from Neon Nois dark romances to a fantastic superhero comedy called Villains Inc. Through to the type of films I mentioned to, you know, nasty home invasion movies. You know, so it's a what Midwest Widfest is a very broad tent. A night of horror, as the name suggests, is probably more focused on horror movies. But anybody who likes weird content I think is very happy and has a family at Midwest wed Fest. And that's what we like there with a Midwest Wedfest and that horror, we really are a family. In fact, we're rated consistently on film Freeway, which is the world world's major film festival submission site's where filmmakers submit their films to film festivals. Those are the twelve thousand film festivals on film Freeway. We're always in the top one hundred filmmaker reviewed festivals, usually in the top fifty or higher. And that's out of twelve thousand festivals around the planet, which goes to show how much filmmakers at least enjoy the festival. Well, that's great. Now these are all original entries. Yeah, there are we I program probably, and that's another reason I think the festival's popular is I program probably almost eighty to ninety percent of the content from cold submissions. Occasionally I might source a film, or somebody who's a programming consultant might say, hey, Dane, you really need to see this movie I saw at another festival. But the vast majority of just filmmakers who submit. And while I've done retrospective films at both festivals in the past, usually the content is at least ninety five percent brand new. This year, I don't think there was no retrospective content, so everything was brand new. So do you have to review dozens and dozens of films, hundreds hundreds of films I probably watched without I probably watched over a thousand films for both festivals this year. Oh my god, I guess that's that's well. It could be fun, but a lot of very time consuming. Well I don't consume a whole lot of other content anymore because of it, you know. And as much as I love horror, it's funny when I do unwind, I'm not like I used to be, you know, twenty years ago. Let's throw in a horror movie, because probably that week I already watched ten horror movies. So it's not like unwinding in your downtime. But I mean, I can't complain it's not like digging ditches. It's I'm blessed to be able to do this kind of work. And the quality runs high. Oh, the quality is amazingly high. I think a lot of times when people think about independent cinema, they think of, you know, it's especially horror movies. It's kids with a handicam using tomato sauce to pretend that their best friend's been killed. And while you might get the occasional submission which is as actually that kind of film, the vast majority is just like something you'd see if you turned on I don't know, Netflix, or went to the cinema. But that said, it's very independent, so it's very fresh, it's very new. It's not something you're going to have any other chance of experiencing, perhaps for six months to a year outside of the festival experience. So audiences for this example, this year we had I think three or four world premiere films, and those films will all go on to do, you know, bigger things and play elsewhere. But to be able to sit in an audience and know you're the first people in public to cast your eyes on this material, often with the director and or the producer and or cast and other cast and crew there to Q and A and to introduce the film. It is very different to an experience you get when you go to a cineplex. That's really cool. You're familiar, of course with Bruce Campbell. Oh I love Bruce Campbell. Yeah, well he Have you read his memoirs, If Chins Could Kill? You know? I should? I should have read it. I haven't, but I'm aware of it. I've got I've got to read it one of these days. It is, it is. It is so funny. And he grew up a little bit nor. He grew up in the Detroit area, not too far from where I used to live. In fact, my sister of brags that she rode down to Wayne State University with Bruce Campbell's brother. Well, you know, I can't beat that, I guess. But If could Chin's Colqulle talks about how he and Sam, Ramie and Ted Ramie, they were all buddies together. They were always making these amateur films and they even got them run at the local Royal Ok theater. I guess, but it's just a minute. It talks about how they created the first Evil Dead movies and how they went to Tennessee because of the laws of the cheap print or whatever, and they were learning how to do special effects by the seat of their pants. So I think that you would really enjoy that book. And he has a sequel too. But if Chin's could kill, it's just a blast. Oh hunt it down and read. I love film memoir, so I'm sure I'll enjoy Campbell's. So when did you come When did you leave Australia? Well, immigrated here in twenty fourteen when I married my ex wife. I'm obviously divorced, and that's the reason I moved here, I guess because of the woman I married, and then I had a child, which is probably why I'm still in the Northwards, although I do love it here, and basically that led to me eventually wanting to do festivals here. I'd already done them in Sydney for like over a decade, and so I launched Midwest Weird Fest here because I was like, Hey, this is a place which feels like it could use a strange festival. I'd read Linda Godfrey's book when I first got here, Weird Wisconsin, and I was like, my goodness, is this state just filled with the most like there's UFO Landing Ports, there's this supposed hauntchy Ville where X retired circus midgets live and they'll kill you with you visit there. And ed Geane lives up the road from where I used to be and which a story after story of course, the Hodagg the Beast of Bray Road. And I thought I could do a festival here that isn't just a horror festival, which I obviously loved and I've been doing Sydney forever a decade, but I could do something which was a broader tent of all things weird and all things dark. And that's kind of how Midwest Weird Festival was born. It was because I was living in the wed environs of the north Woods. Really, I guess I should ask, if somebody wants to give you a submission for a film, what do they do? Sure that actually, we've opened submissions again for twenty twenty five now, so they can just go to Midwest Wedfest dot com and enter their film there, and we take horror films there as well. But if they have something they specifically want to enter into a horror festival, they can go to a Night of Horror dot com. Both of those festivals are currently open for submissions, and when you go there, you'll be able to click through to that site I talked about before film Freeway directly to either festival's submission page and then all of the details are there and they can submit literally online. They don't have to In the old days, when I first started doing this, you would get DVD screeners and VHS's and things sent to you in the mail. But now it's literally just a screen, a link on Vimeo or on YouTube or through that film Freeway's own platform they have, and so it's all done. Just yeah, you can probably do it. You can probably enter a film festival in a matter of minutes online these days. Wow. But the only thing about that is I'm the guy that I know. You can stream everything these days, but I want the disc in my hand. I want to be able to walk over to the DBD player, put the disc in, and not only watch the movie, but watch all the extras. Man, I'm a real sucker for extras. I think physical media makes more and more sense all the time, and we see various streaming services dropping content and you never know what you were able to watch yesterday is available tomorrow, and then there's modern edits of things, and you don't know if anything, a film which once might have been totally acceptable becomes politically untouchable today, so you're not going to be able to get it on a streaming a screening platform anyway. So yeah, I think physical media is still king. I think people are starting to realize there was a big movement away from physical media, I think. But I think people are starting to go, hey, I can't find this movie you once had on VHS on any streaming platform anymore. I really want to see it. So I think we're going to state exactly what you were talking about, people turning back to physical media. I really hope. So, Susie, I've been hogging in the conversation. Is there anything you wanted, any direction you wanted to go at this moment? So I promised this is going to be my last Puckology reference, but I did have to point out, since we brought it, we want stuff in Wisconsin. Oh, yes, go ahead, There are apockologies in Wisconsin. They are the bowl cut variety, though they're not the mean ones that we have here. I actually have newspaper clippings from Stratford Wisconsin. You know what, I'm giving away a part of my location. I regularly draw through Stretford get out of town regularly. Yeah. So they were spotted. There was a glowing green light that they saw first, and then they saw the eyes of these little people, and they said they're about two and a half feet tall. They had hair on their faces, and they were wearing blue clothing and shiny belt buckles, and they were very fast. It said, wow, something to look out for, Deane. I know, I'll have to tell my daughter as well. Where I've raised her with a solid sense of fairy faith, So any indication that there might be little creatures living near or so, I'm sure she'll be delighted to hear. And also tell and tell Dean of the audience what the difference is between the blue clad pug wedgies and the ones closer to your neck of the woods. So out here the puckwadgies have huge potbellies and quills on their head and their back. The Midwest puck wedgies are a little bit softer, more conservative. They have blonde hair that they wear in bowl and their ears they have the pointy ears that stick out of the bowl. Cuts, and they are generally sighted wearing blue clothing, which is usually described as a smock. Wow, the very stylish. I'll be keeping my eye outs for the park watch us. Now, Steve suggested, well, listen, when you do find them, we'll have you back on. That would be fantastic. I mean we had a big foote. In fact, in one of Linda's books, there's a big foot sighting literally just up my road, like so close to here. And when I was reading it, I was like, I was listening to the description between the two towns that it said, and I said, I'm directly between those two towns. And then I looked at the road and I'm like, that road is just like literally I drive up my road, I don't know, like one hundred feet in turn left and I'm on that road. So I went to wear that side. I said, yeah, this neck of the woods. Oh. And also there was in one another one of Linda's books, there was one of the early dog man wear wolf Side in Wisconsin going back to the nineteen fifties. Was literally in my town, supposedly a farmer and I'm outside of town, but the town closest to me a farmer drove furiously into town one day and jumped out of his truck and was in hysterics about a wolf the size of a horse terrorizing his property. So there could very well be puckwadges here. There's bigfoot, there's sasquatch, there's you know, and Stratford is not too far away, so there may well be puckwags even in my woods. If I ever see one, I want to see one with a ball cut. I want to. I don't know who was our Harry Dresser well, speaking of the speaking of the we folk and things living underground like. Of course, one of the reasons, supposedly Richard in Shaver that I'm sure we're going to get into decided move to Amherst, which is also near me, according to Gray Barker at least, and they knew too much about flying sources, was that there was meant to be a colony of terror who were the friendly underground humanoid dwellers in the shaven mythology living near Amherst. And Amherst isn't far from me either, so this terror as well, that near me. So yeah, I'm sure the puckwads he's a part of that gang, and For those that don't know Gray Barker, he's in the state, grew up in the state that I'm living in, West Virginia, Clarksbury. He had so Syrian publications. His book, his first book, They Knew Too Much About Flying Saucers, was about the infamous Men in Black who supposedly harassed and silenced UFO witnesses. And maybe that's something we can get into later. But he actually I remember John Keel talking about it. Of course, John Keele Mothmann prophecies. John Keel said that Gray Barker started writing that book and he got about halfway through, threw his hands up in the air and just started making it up. Well, you know, it's funny because Barker, obviously is somebody who liked Moseley was a prankster. You know, I knew Jim Moseley. I never met Ba Baccapast before I was looking at any of this stuff at a serious level. But those people, while they were pranksters, I think there's still a level of sophistication, and obviously their writing's fantastic. But for example, I mentioned Barker talking about Shaver saying he moved to Amherst because there was a colony of good terror nearby. Whether that's true or not, I have no idea. But the breakdown on the Shaver mystery in the beginning of They Knew Too Much about Flying Sources is probably one of the greatest breakdowns of the Shaver mystery I've ever seen. Like Barker does a thorough job as a journalist of covering the Shaver mystery within I don't know half a dozen pages in that book. So while yes, I do think there's no doubt a prankstery element to people like Barker and maybe even Keel by the way, but that's another story. Still, they're writing. All of those men's writing, Keel, Moseley, Barker, it still surpasses almost anything being written today. I was just reading one of his columns from Chasing the Flying Saucers that Barker did, and his writing was captivating. He was talking about the first time he met James mostly and to his apartment and so forth, and then they were on Long John Neble's radio show, and of course Long John Neble was the predecessor to Art Bell. But yeah, good good stuff. And I also met Gray Barker briefly, never met James Moseley. It was I'll give you my Gray Barker story. It was nineteen seventy six. And of course, Susie, you remember the seventies, right, yeah, oh yeah, yeah, Okay, it was nineteen seventy six. It was a New Fhon symposium in ann Arbor, Michigan. It was ten years after the swamp Gas fiasco, and doctor Heinik was there speaking. The name of his talk was swamp Gas plus ten and counting, and a very serious talk but with a lot a lot of humor in it, talking about some of the mistakes he made the old days. But and of course they never would have let Grey Barker actually speak there. But he came up with an armful of his Socerian publications. And I saw him in the lobby. He was between where the speakers would stand, and that had like book tables, and I forget what he dropped. He was telling a joke. He dropped an F bomb and everybody just cracked up. I don't know if I actually heard it or missed it, but you know, he was this really tall guy. All the pictures I had seen of him, he had had like the close cropped hair, but he had kind of longish hair. He looked like somebody you'd see in the fifties in a coffee shop, like a beatnik, you know, reading some kind of horrible poetry or about something. But he had he had these super thick glasses, he had a stigmatism in one eye, this baggy suit, and I kind of I had them off because my friend of mine, Kevin, he had gone to the nineteenth You guys just have to indulge me with this for a few minutes. He had gone to the nineteen sixty seven Congress of Scientific youuthologists and at the Commodore Hotel in New York City, you know. And I was supposed to go that. We were in junior high and his mom was offered to take me. My parents decided I wasn't going to go to New York City. So that was that I had to. I had to live vicariously through Kevin. But Kevin met all these guys, He met Barker, he met Moseley and all this stuff. So one of the first questions I asked Barker was do you remember Kevin. He's, oh, yeah, you know, and actually Kevin used to uh. We had we had an amateur publication Kevin used to swipe one of his pictures every once in a while and put it on the cover, and then afterwards he called up Gray and said, hey, Grey, I used to picture from such and such, and Great said, oh, okay, did you give credit Tosian publications? And he'd say, yeah, okay, have an nice day. Things were so easy in those days, so happy times. And then I asked him about, uh, you know, there were some people said that his book The Silver Bridge. They said that he ripped off Keel or whatever. Now I had never read The Silver Bridge, and of course he didn't if you read it. But I asked him, I said, people have claimed that Keile, you know, ripped off your your book. And he says, I wish I could imitate him, but he said something like, oh no, I'm sure John wrote his own book. And I asked him about a man in black kin kind of an attack in New Zealand. The ever read the UFO warning by John Stewart. No, I haven't read it. Okay, that's that's just a really one of these bizarre bender like cases. Anyway, I won't won't belabor this, but yeah, that was my Uh. I kind of did a brief interview in the lobby there with Gray Barker. And then the PostScript to that is I've been to the Barker archive a couple of times and I opened up one of the drawers and there were the six issues of our magazine, The UFO Phenomenon, right in the Gray Barker archive. So, my goodness, I can I can just I can just quit now and go home? I think, so you really can't. Of course, the Silver Bridge is a fantastic book. It's very different to Mothman Prophecies. But while it was published under the Soorcerian Press published you know, imprint. You know who print that book, right? I know who did the reprint, but I'm not the original. Was it Palmer? Yeah, I have a copy of it here for that very reason. Okay, very good. Yeah, so literally got printed down the road from again where I am. So it's another weird part of this part of the States. So apparently Palmer printed. And I only know a lot of this because Gabriel McKee is coming out with what I imagine is going to be just a spectacular autobiography about Barker, and I interviewed him for the Man who invented Flying Sauces, just like I interviewed you, Steve, and then we've kept in touch and we've talked about these things. And I was like, can you give me a list of every Barker book that Palmer published when he was in Amherst And he sent me a fairly It was like, these ones are for sure, and silver Bridge was on that these are almost definite, and these are probable because obviously Palmer wasn't dropping his own imprint on these because they were the sorry in press or Sarah and how have you pronounced the press? But he published an awful lot of Barker stuff, and of course Barker was I think what was his title in Flying Sources Flying Source of magazine, which Palmer published, was like assistant editor or he had some title in all of those those early Raymond Palmer Flying saurce On magazines as well. No, I didn't didn't realize that he had was publishing the Sarcerian boods, yeah, because I think, well, yeah, he had an actual he had a printing press there, so well he was printing out his own stuff, which was fairly extensive. Of course, the Coming of the Saucer and Flying Source of pilgrimage and he I mind you, I think the Shaver book he published was before he had the printing press in when he republished I remember, I remember Amuri in the Return of Satanas when he actually did a book version of that, that was just before he was an amherst. But as you know, I'm sure, and I'm sure in your libraries, Steve, because you've got an extensive library, I bet you we could pull out ten or twenty Palmer published publications. No, I'm not even coutting the magazines, which I'm sure you have as well. I just made the physical book. So he was really the number one publisher and prince of probably a flying source of material in the US for a long time. Again, one of the sad stories that Palm has been almost forgotten. I mean not by you and I, but I'm in the broader UFO community well. And actually some of Barker's publications blur a little bit with Timothy Green Beckley because he kind of, you know, the mantle was sort of passed to him. And you know what, I think back to some of those books, I can't remember, was it you know, Global Communications or was it usau Sarian right, kind of Seamless. But I want to mention that Susie has all also been kind of infected by John Keel. She has recently read Maybe maybe I should let you say what you have recently read by John Keel. I've read the Mockman Prophecies that started with that you have to and then I just finished The Eighth Tower, a fantastic and I was very upset with Deeve when I read the Mothman Prophecies because there is mention of little people in that, and no one ever told me I would have read it years ago. Well, the the I think what I think what might have enticed was that, uh, she has done a lot of research into the thunderbird phenomena, the large bird phenomena in connection with the uh Bridgewater triangle. And of course John Keel has that great chapter in there, the Flutter of Black Wings, where he covers all kinds of uh bizarre winged creatures them right, yes, yes, right, yep, No go ahead now now you guys, Steve, I'm sorry, Oh no, no, go ahead, I was just uh, I was just trying to fill in the pause there. Please go ahead, I think ken't. I'm not sure if he still is I know for me because it was before the Mothman Prophecies film obviously, and you were even were in the quel earlier, but seemed to be the gateway book for many people to start to look at the UFO phenomenon more broadly than just the nuts and bolts interpretation that was obviously the popular one, which we'd all been raised on with science fiction movies and in search of and everything else. It was Keel that seemed to let us be able to go, oh, there's weird big birds. There's also strange little men. There's also flying sources, there's also all of this other nonsensical stuff. It was very much like Charles fort and returns conscious of everything that had happened in the last fifty years, and rewritten and restructured his ideas of how weird the world was with modern stories. Because the Forti in spirit, the spirit which is suspicious of orthodoxies, I don't think really is held by people who are traditional euthologists, so people who were traditional cryptozoologists, so people who are traditional ghost hunters. I think all of those people still look to a scientific method to somehow solve this problem. And we can bang on the doors of the scientific institutions long enough, with enough proof, and eventually they're going to open the doors and will be accepted. Of course, Charles Fort said, that's nonsense. That's never going to happen. It's not the way science works. And throughout John Kill's writings you have this similar sense, an updated sense, but a similar sense that so much of this is just not going to be able to be worked out by any type of scientific or positivistic or empirical model. It's all far too strange. And that's the real value I think of both Thought and Kill, the fact that everything people like you, Steve and I and Susie are interested in is far more complicated than what a lot of mainstream uthology, mainstream cryptozoology, mainstream specta chasers are ever going to, you know, put forwards as the reality of the weird, and Susie when you're reading Keel I don't think you found it writings like a terrible shock. I well, it was a shock in the aspect that I said, people have already come to the same conclusions I have independently there are other people that think the same way, which was a little bit of emotional rollercoaster for a while so you know it wasn't his His theories were not shocking to me. It was more of a shock that, you know other people think the same way, Okay. I for me, when I read Strange Creatures from Time and Space before it became the complete guide to mysterious beings in the old days, it had that great Frank for was that a painting was so wonderful. It's such a it's such a beautiful artwork to cover that original paperback is amazing. And they never I never made a poster out of that. I always wanted to that. I've got the big mothban one that came up was on the High Times magazine cover. But you know what I'll tell you, just quickly staved to cut in that. You can get a poster of it from the Frank Frazetta store, I think, But there's no man in the middle, you know, the man in the kind of I don't know, the Safari suit or something looking at the monsters, which I guess I always took to be John Keel himself. Right, you can get the artwork, but that for some reason, I don't know what happened. But the artwork you can buy. The poster you can buy does not have the man in the safari suit looking at the monsters. I think he was supposed to be a a like a constable, like a policeman, but with the wide brimmed hat. That was my impression, gotcha. I always though it was just meant to be Keel out in the wild's exploring. I have no idea, but it's so cool because he's got his he's got his hand up, you know, and we've got this array of creatures coming at him, like like his hand up is going to have stopped him somehow. But anyway, that's where Keel kind of just nudges us a little bit, and so talking about window areas, trying to come to grips with how is it that these things seem to all of a sudden show up and they disappear, but we can't catalog them, we can't catch them, and so forth. But I have to say, Susie, when I first read Operation Trojan Horse, I wouldn't. I didn't read it for a few years after it came out, and I didn't. I was still a nuts and bolts guy. I just didn't want I mean, I could handle extra dimensional passageways, I guess but the pulling all that together. And I confessed this on a pass show Dean. When I used to get my Fate magazines back in the sixties, I had no use for anything but the UFO article. I cut out the UFO article and threw the rest of the magazine away. Well, that's that's kind of indicative of what most people are like though, right Like most people traditionally have either been interested in they've been interested in one specific aspect of the fourteen roalm. That's why so much was lost, as far as the type of comparative analysis which people like Kiel and Lay and then leader Patrick Harper and now people like Joshua Cha do so well, but we lost it. And you know, just as a quick aside, it's funnily enough, I just bought the first seventy issues of Fate magazine the other day, except Issue one. It wasn't included in the lot because Issue one's worth so much money. Right. You can actually from Fate Magazine themselves. They do a reproduction of Issue one. I think can buy from like twenty four bucks. I have a PDF I downloaded, but I will buy that from Fate one day, or I'll pay the thousand dollars if I had the money for Fate one. But I bought the first seventy issues. And what's fascinating about this? I'll ask you this question. See if you guys can get it. We think about the world of when we think about the world of the weird, now the broader forty in the world, which is often I think used incorrectly that term, but we'll use forty today. We think about all these different things, right obviously, and I won't say what they are all well my question, but the covers of Fate had all kinds of different things on them in that first run from this this is a run that goes through Parma. But what wasn't on any of those first covers do you think, you guys, which now you couldn't imagine not being on like ten years worth of issues of a broad magazine that was looking at all things weird. I you got me any idea, Suzie. No, Well, there's there's UFOs. There's there's things like Voodoo the Things. There's things like Easter Island as you we'd imagine, there's things like the Lockanness Monster. There's more UFOs, there's more ghostly things, there's more haunting things. There's no Bigfoot on one car, right, And so it's funny how essentral Bigfoot is to this whole realm now, right. But because of course this is before the Jerry Crew photos, or certainly before of Jerry Crew footprints on. Certainly before the Patterson Gimmel on footage, Bigfoot wasn't a thing. And I think this is the most valuable thing. My time may be wasted in academia, I don't know, but the most valuable thing I learned as an historian looking at the weird is that the way we imagine the timeline of our beliefs or everything else is actually inaccurate to what the perceptions were of the paranorm on the strange. It's like today when you tell people nobody was talking about dog Man ten to fifteen years ago, right, and they go, well, there was there was this report out of Texas in and I'm like, yeah, I know that, I understand, but it wasn't on it. You can watch the whole run of In Search Of and there's no dog Man episode. Can you imagine a Monstery show today or a broad forteen show today that didn't talk about dog Man? So our beliefs and our perceptions, and they change so much dependent upon the culture. And you can see that in microcosms as well. You can see that in UFO law. You can see that within the things we believe about what UFO occupants are, like what the intentions of the EUPHO noughts are. We're so bound historically and culturally. We can get lost in amen and we can reassess history through our own lens, and we can kind of telescope it, and we can miss the fact that, for example, like I just said, Bigfoot wasn't even looked at the first at least on the covers of the first ten years worth of Fate magazine. And I think that's quite telling. I think where we are where historical beings and the things we were interested in are also trapped within this cultural historical lens, and things, like Fort said, they appear at the time that we're kind of ready for them to appear, or certainly that seems to be the way it seems when you look at this stuff historically. I sent a It's funny you talk about being in an area where this paranormal stuff had happened, and you drove down that very road I was. I sent a message to Susie that I was reading a copy of an old nineteen fifty six a UFO Forum newsletter and it's talking about a bigfoot like creature without he was in the word bigfoot and in Marshall, Misschigan, where I used to live, and these three men saw this thing. They called it a monster. They said it had hands instead of pause. It had a really bad smell. And when Gray Barker reported on it, he said it would glide along like the flat Woods monster did. And so it prompted me to check out. You know, when when did the bigfoot name come into the nomenclature, And it was about nineteen fifty eight, I think, so this was just a couple of years prior to that. So, yeah, that's that's really interesting. Now. Was this anything to do with your the dissertation that you wrote when you talked about the UFO phenomenon in the perception of it in the US. Yeah, I think that was one of my main and I used various I guess methodologies to look at it. So I used historical and sociological and psychological and even postmodern as much as I'm not a postmodernist, there was some postmodern theory which kind of made sense, But I think my main takeaway was what I kind of just said. So to apply that to eufology, if you talk to a eupologist today to tell you what the history of UFOs are in America since post World War Two, they'll all start with either the Kenneth Arnold siding, or they will start, of course with the Roswell events, and then the Roswell event transforms into the smoking gun of euthology, where the US government become aware of this, and then there's all these secret deals with the aliens, and then there's all of this, you know, like that's the story now, right. You can't talk about UFO belief without talking about Roswell. And indeed, when they had the recent whistleblower hearings last year in US Congress here you had US congressmen, it might even been a congresswoman say, the American public have been fascinated with the UFOs ever since something crashed at Roswell. Of course, as you and I know, Steve, maybe Susie does. I'm not sure how much in the UFOs she actually is, but as somebody who's perhaps done a deeper dive into the UFO topic. Is that nobody talked about Roswell in the US after the initial newspaper report went out and that went through around the wire services of the world. As soon as the US government the Army Air Force at the time, said it was just a weather balloon. That was the end of the Roswell story. Nobody talked about Roswell until the late seventies, early nineteen eighties. In fact, I've got two. I've got multiple UFO encycled beauties in my library here is I'm sure you do as well, Steve, because your library' is amazing. I've seen photos of it. But I've got one from Ronald's story I think, and one from Margaret Sachs. I think they were both published in nineteen eighty. Neither of those referenced, certainly, not the Story one, I think the Sacks one's the same. None of them even mentioned Roswell. It's not even a word in there, let known an entry. So it goes to show that up until nineteen eighty, this wasn't something anybody who was a UFO believer even thought about in America. Now that's inconceivable today when you ask somebody to tell the historical narrative and what happened, well, they say, and I've heard people people have been angry with me. They're like, well, that's before Stanton Friedman and William Moore went out there and did all of that research. And I'm like, that's by the bye. The point is that nobody talked about Roswell the day they do the way they do today. And of course William Moore ends up being an AFOSI asset under Richard Dody anyway, And I think so much of what we believe today about what your average UFO believer believes today is I call X files upology today because that's a very simple explanation. In other words, what I was saying, UFO crashes, secret government deals, underground bases, reversed engineered UFOs, all of this type of stuff. None of this stuff becomes influential at all in the thinking of most eufologists until that period where William Moore writes the first book with Charles Burlitz, which Stanton Friedman does some of the research on. And I can't say who or that. Maybe no, I won't because I'm not sure, but they did say it in the Show of Mind. Somebody who's very high in the paranormal community told me that they were talking to Stanton Friedman and they called him once and it was definitely at a in a government office, let's just put it that way. So their implication was maybe Friedman was on the payroll, just like William Moore was. So who'd be surprised, right, who'd be surprised? Really? But everything we think about the x Foles version of UFO belief, it all comes out of this cadre of very small individuals. William Moore and Jamie Shandera get the MJ twelve papers. William Moore is already an asset of Richard Dody before that, supposedly before he was an asset who the devil knows he wrote the he was the Berltz's name was really on the cover. But the main person who did most of the legwork was was was William Moore, along with some stuff from Stanton Friedman, the Dulci underground based stuff, the cattle mutilation stuff. All of this comes from literally four or five people, like I mean, I literally just named them, and that that stuff's so essential to what people believe about UFOs now, before that it didn't exist and doesn't say that. I mean some of these names you've mentioned, but parably, some people are just kind of blurring. They don't know what what we're talking about, but they're kind of like Richard Doughty, and so for it, I think of disinformation guys. I mean, yeah, I had Richard Dody on talking Wed sometime ago. Personally, I really like Richard Dodiy. I got him very well with him. But Richard Dodi the charles Burg. So if we're going to talk about the Paul Bennowitz affair, and I can just say it very briefly and then we'll move on. But Paul Benowitz was an electrical engineer private businessman who lived opposite Kirkland Air Force Base in New Mexico. And he started seeing strange lights and he thought he was picking up weird messages from the base. So as a good patriot, he went to the base and said, I think there's UFOs and weird stuff happening around here now, the base apparently according to Greg Bishop. And I think, also, what's the other great book the kook Spooks and sauces books anyway, Yeah, Adam go Rightley's book. So Greg Bishop's book project Beata which is phenomenal. Go rightly, his book is amazing as well. But as they say in that book, and let's stick with Bishops, that there was actually a high end Air Force laser communication thing happening in that base. And I think Dody said similar things too, even though he says the Doughty says there really are UFOs and aliens and everything else. But instead of just swearing Paul Benowitz to secrecy, the AFOSI operation within that base headed by Paul Benowitz, well not headed by Paul Benowitz, he was the victim, headed by Richard Dode, who decided, well, we're going to just spin the information and make him think there really are aliens that he's hearing and UFOs that he's seeing. And so they just fed into Paul Benowitz's belief that there was this alien presence around the base. Supposedly, Richard Dody, the head AFOSI agent on the case, even flew Benowitz, and I think Dorty talks about this himself, flew Benowitz over the dulcy Mesa and said, look, there's a crash saurcer there, or there's an entrance there, fueling all of this belief about underground bases, in the area. Now. In Adam go Rightly's book, and this is a difficult thing to say, but it's in go Rightly's book, which I just mentioned. Go Rightly says that the computer that everybody has heard about that was given to Paul Benowitz to supposedly decode the alien messages, and all it was was this US intelligence built computer which fed him all these crazy alien messages. Supposedly, according to go Righty, was Heineck himself was part of that sting and gave Benowitz that computer system himself. So if that's the case, eupology is so dirty. Even without the Heineck's story, eupology is so dirty. William Moore argue, the most significant UFO journalist writer in the field in the late seventies through the early eighties. Again, he's the person who wrote the initial Roswell book. He's the person who broke the MJ twelve document scandal. He's the person who later had a moof On symposed him. In nineteen eighty nine, stands up on tape and says, I have to confess under Richard Dody, I'm an asset for the AFOSI. We've been spying on you all we've been gathering data and we've been feeding you nonsense. Now the funny thing is you folowed you didn't go well. Hang on. The Roswell story, the Dulci story, the cattle mutilation story, the MJ twelve documents, all of that comes from William Moore, and he just said it's all nonsense. Instead, all they did was hate William Moore and Richard Dody and double down on their belief system. Because this is years before the X Files, this is years before the paranoia hit the height in the nineteen nineties. This is eighty nine. So ufology didn't learn its lesson. Even when William Moore stands in front of them and amidst the thing that he was, he was playing them and was still suffering from that delusion. That's a bizarre And even the uh the crash saucer with the little Men, the one that people confused with Roswell sometimes is the one that uh it was actually Aztec uh the behind flying Saucers by Scully, and that apparently was a hoax. A couple of con men created that. So that there's so much of this that just just kind of falls away. Let me do a brief station identification. Here you are listening to the High Strangeness Factor conprorided on the Paranormal UK Radio Network. Susie Bastille and I are talking to Dean Bertram about his various projects and all things paranormal. I love the way this conversation is just going everywhere, Susie, Any any questions, any any interjections at the moment. No, But I think it's a great point that you know, one or two people an agenda or a bias can really almost shape the history of a phenomenon. And everyone kind of looks at life through a certain lens. And you can even have you know, two people experiencing the same event that takes something different away from it. Like one person might see two people might see the same endstee. One person thinks it's an alien, the other person thinks it's an angel, depending on the way you're looking at it. And you know, whoever the louder person is, that's what the common belief is going to be at the time. Absolutely, I'd like to move into the shaper mystery a little bit, but I do. I am curious about what was your pathway to get here? Were you interested in these sort of subjects when you're in Australia and did you carry it with you over to the States or what you know, when did you discover John Keel? What was what was kind of your pathway to get where you are? Oh my gosh, it's such a long story. I'll have to give you. I'll give you a very abbreviated one. What would be another hour conversation. So when I was young, I had I think some type of I don't know how, a dream, a recurring dream, or some type of night terrors, although they were different to other night terrors where I thought a little man was coming to my room and taking me away. And I had very clear memories about this as well. Anyway, long story short, without going into those details. Many years later, in the nineteen nineties, I discovered a book by Edith Fiora, her book Encounters. So it's not the normal alien inbduction Gateway book, which would have back of then been Whitley Streevers, Communion or one of the books by Bud Hopkins, like Missing Time or Intruders. But when I read that book, and she's very clever, she and this is a woman who fully believes in the UFO experience, she'd read Donald Keho's first book back in the fifties, and she said from that moment on an introduction to the book that I was a full believer in extraterrestrial visitation. So maybe that should have cued me in. But I was in my twenties and perhaps not quite a sophisticated But when I read her book, I was like, maybe I'm in an alien ductee. I have these memories of you know, this little man taking me away and da da da da da. So then I went down the rabbit hole of UFO research. I read everything I could get my hands on, and for a long time, like you, Steve, I was a full nuts and bolts believer and extraterrestrial visitation little man in you know, metallic crafts from outer space. And then I happened to be doing a trip to America and I ended up living in a residential area with some people I met on a long trip that I spent him long before I lived here, and long story short, one of their roommates ended up moved out through will I won't go to the gory see details, but they were hospitalized and then they had to clear out his effects, and I just this is back in I guess ninety I don't know ninety one, n two, ninety three, I can't even remember the year. But in his books was a copy of the month Man Prophecies. I was like, can I read this book? And one of the guys was there like, heah, I've read It's a great book. And that book changed my life because I was already interested in the UFO phenomenon. I was already essentially a believer. And then I read Kill's book and I was like, you know, you can look at this phenomenon without being a skeptic and dismissing it and acknowledging people's experiences, but without having to accept the cultural normative explanations of what's going on. And then I was, you know, I was obsessed. And so I went back to Australia shortly thereafter, and I was just you know, bumming around. So we're do in our twenty sometimes I was like, I'm going to go back to university and I'm going to do a master's degree in history and I'm going to write my long, my master's dissertation, which is much smaller than a PhD dissertation on UFOs. And then I did that, and when I was doing my Masters, I was like, well, you know, I'm just going to be a rabel rouser with a master's, I might as well do a PE. So then I pitched to do a PhD and do a more extensive examination of the UFO phenomenon. So yeah, I was well interested in all of this long before I moved here to the US. That's probably a longer answer than you wanted, but that's what happened. No, that's great. I And did you get any resistance when you Oh I got ye. Yes, Oh my goodness, that's a great question. I think now people riding in academia have it much better than people probably did, you know, thirty forty years ago. Now go to when I was doing this in the late nineties, to the mid two thousands, or the mid nineties actually to the mid two thousands, after I'd done my MA. The woman who ran the masters program at Sydney University really was resistant to somebody within a very reputable, respectable department looking at this type of material. So when to get into the PhD program, you either need to have gone through the BA Honors route, and I was over university by the time i'd done three years in my BA, I foolishly didn't do my honor, but when you go back and do your masters, it was kind of the same thing. So she knew I wanted to do my PhD, and she knew what I wanted to do my PhD because I was doing with my masters. And so there was an essay that she marked, my long essay, which was actually different to my dissertation, and that was such a major part of the mark as well, and she gave me literally one mark less than I needed, I think, to be able to move into the PhD program. And I know she was always resistant, she was always hostile. Thankfully, my supervisor at the time was a heavy hitter within the department, and thankfully the head of the department was a heck of a nice guy. And I went to him and complained, and I said, listen, I think we understand the resistance I'm having here, and I think the quality of this essay is pretty high, and I think I've intentionally been under mark to prevent me from doing this at a PhD level. And God bless the head of the department. He agreed, and he read the essay and he reassessed the mark and the mark increased considerably, and then I was able to move into the PhD program. But if it hadn't been for people who were more forward thinking in that department, if it had been the older guard, because both of those men I mentioned were younger, and the older guard who was the head of the MAA program, there's no I wouldn't have got into a PhD program. I would have been stopped right there. That's a great story. Yeah, absolutely true too. I still remember clearly sitting and sitting in the head of the department's office and just being mad but also kind of somewhat intimidated. It's the head of the department, you know what I mean. So you're trying to pitch your case. But no, he was very understanding. I won't name anybody's names, but that's exactly what happened. Well, very good, okay, I have yes. Well, do you remember how old you were when you were having those nightmares? By any chance? Yeah? It's funny because I often say I believe I was around five years old, so it was difficult to pin it down precisely, but I would would I would say five. Yeah. So the reason I asked is because I listened to a lot of experience or interviews, and I'm going to out myself as a NERVD, but I keep a spreadsheet common denominators to ratify in patterns, and I've noticed a trend of eight year olds specifically having those types of dreams. I think I was a little younger. I think I continue to have weird experiences going forward, but I'm more confident that they were genuine night terrors. While my younger experience was it wasn't like normal sleep paralysis, because I had sleep paralysis later. I very clearly remember sleep paralysis, but my younger experiences were far stranger and far more tactile. Like I have very real physical memories of some of those things, which, of course I always wanted to dismiss it as just just you know, some kind of psychological issue I was working through, or a dream state. But the physical things make me think of like the islamicist Henry Corbyn, who's an academic who dealed with Islamic Islamic mysticism, and he would talk about this kind of this kind of state between the real and the other, this imaginal realm where things seem sometimes to be heightened and seem to be as real, if not more real than your day to day life. And some of my memories, and I'm also very conscious that memories are clouded by time, but some of my memories of my experiences with the Little Man, which is how I've always referred him to, particularly one or two, that there is physically really, if not realer to me than other experiences that I had at that time, like wrestling boys in playgrounds as little kids do, fighting other kids. My memories of my last memory of the little Man, by the way, just as the side was, I knew if I went with him that night, I was never coming back. And when he came, I physically resisted and I fought him, not necessarily like you know Rocky bellbowl boxing or anything, but like wrestling and struggling on the top of the bed. And then I don't know if I can say I beat him, but there was some obviously some kind of impast and he left and he never returned. But that physical memories are very, very very strong memories. Still. Have you read any of paulse and Claire's books. No, I haven't, but I'm guessing I should. He in Yorkshire. He was on my show Fascinating Guy you would love to have him on Talking Weird North and East Yorkshire. He's a guy that you know, boots on the ground. He has documented orbs, dog man like creatures, black panthers, triangles, but he had a whole series of experiences like that. His books are called Truth Proof The Truth That Leaves No Proof. He's written four of them, but after he got past three he took a deviation and he wrote, Oh, come on, what's it called. I can't think of the name right now, but it talks about his childhood into young adulthood and all the bizarre experiences he had. It's called night People. I think that's what he called them. And you know, because of the experiences you've had, I think you'll find this fascinating. You can get them on Kindle anybody that's listening. You don't want to get these from Amazon, either in the US or the UK, because third party sellers have them and they've jacked the prices up. I ordered mine some of them directly from Paul in the UK and just as an aside, he also has a phenomenal documentary called wolf Lands on the essentially he calls them the werewolf, but the essentially the dog man sightings in Yorkshire in England. So it's just just fascinating stuff. So pardon me, I think I'd like to move into the Shaver mystery a little bit. I'd love too. Okay, Now, now Susie is going to have to be vigilant and keep us honest because it would be very easy for you and idine just to talk over everybody's head when we get into shave. So I want Susie to crack the whip if all of a sudden we kind of go off the rails. Sounds good. So how did you get involved in the Shaver mystery? What was your pathway there? Well, it goes back to when I was doing my PhD dissertation and obviously I was doing a deep dive historical I suppose examination of things that led up to UFO belief. And it was actually, again John Keele. It was John Keel's article in fortyen Times the man who invented Flying Sources, which is a I've totally stolen that title for the feature, and I guess the literary hair air of John Keele is probably Doug Skinner, And I told Doug, I'm like, I'm sorry, I've stolen John's title, and he didn't seem to mind, so I don't feel too bad about stealing it. But that article that John Keele wrote in the fortyen Times, I have the issue wherever there was a Winter nineteen eighty one on Winter ninety eighty two issues sometime early in the eighties. Similarly, he'd said similar things in his famous his famous article on the UFO subculture, which he used to sell that he used to sell a booklet version at conferences here. I have a copy of that too, with Doug Skinner's amazing art on the cover. But Keell's point, anyway, I could go see I'm already going on. You should be cracking the whip, Susie, because I can totally go off track well very quickly. A Doug Skinner, for those who don't know, has John Keel dot com, and he has collected all kinds of stuff. In fact, two of my friends John and Tim Frick Uh they were alerted by uh, some of Keel's family members when he died and they were going to clean out his apartment and they couldn't get there to you know, to remove some of the stuff. So they they were instrumental in getting a hold of Doug Skinner. Because of that chain of events, a lot of the stuff has been preserved. But imagine the stuff that has been lost, but thank god, so much of it hasn't been exactly. People playing the Keel drinking game tonight are just passed out by now, Diana. There's a friend of mine, Jeff, talking to and he said, they do whenever I do my show, they do the uh. When ever, I mentioned John Keel, they take a swig and so usually they're they're out by about five to seven minutes. Well, I don't think you can. I don't think you can talk about anything in this space if you're wild like you, and I asked Steve without talking about so was that article. It was also the UFO subculture piece that that k wrote in the Journal of Popular Culture and then sold that booklet for where he I think correctly identified Ray Palmer and in many ways his involvement with Richard Shaver overlaying the groundwork for much of the Flying Source of mythology which would erupt in the mid nineteen In mid nineteen forty seven, because as you and I know, Steve and maybe the listeners don't, Richard Shaver wrote a letter to Amazing Stories in nineteen forty three, and Richard Shaver in that letter said that he discovered this ancient Antediluvian alphabet which all modern languages derive from. And Ray Palmer published that even though his assistant editor Harold Brown through a trapecan, which is a wonderful story in itself. But after that Palmer knew he was onto something, and so he continued correspondence with Richard Shaver, and Richard Shaver made these claims that he had been in contact, both physically and mentally with underground civilizations which dated back again to antediluvial times, and the evil people were known as the Darrow, and the good people below the surface. As I mentioned before, there's meant to be a colony of the New Amherst just down on the road from me were called the Terrot, and these people, the Darro at least kidnapped people. Eight people were responsible for everything from car crashes to people falling down flights of stairs. They were essentially, as Keel said, and I know you've said as well many times, Steve, it was like a modern devil theory, Okay. But John Keel recognized that this suggestion of this alternative non humanoid race with incredibly advanced technology supposedly abducting people flying out of the caverns in proto flying sources had set the stage for nineteen forty seven when Kenneth Arnold saw flying sources near Mourio. It wasn't near Morial later part of the story near Mount Rainier, and even Amazing Stories that again the magazine that Ray Palmer was the editor of. It had artwork on the back covers of it, particularly but even sometimes on some of the front covers on some of the Shaver stuff that looked very much like flying sources. Before people were talking about flying sources and just ranting about flying sources. There's a great book got by Chris Orbeck which talks about the origin of flying sources, which is worth reading, which is a different story altogether, but if we stay with the Shaver mystery stuff. So Keele acknowledged and recognized how influential the Shaver mystery was in the development of flying saucer mythology. A few years after because that first Shaver letter, I think is published in forty three or forty four, and then Amazing Stories, which was America's major science fiction pulp magazine at the time became for the next two or three years, essentially the Shaver magazine. Mostly covers were Shaver art. Most of the leading stories were stories by Shaver. A lot of the other content that wasn't written by Shaver were similar stories that were backing up the Shaver mystery. Various Fortian it's like Vincent Gaddis and other science fiction authors like Roger Phillips were chiming in and building up the Shaver mystery, and so Amazing Stories was essentially no longer science fiction magazine. It was talking about a genuine non human but humanoid influence interacting us, interacting with us with incredibly advanced technology, including strange flying craft. So Kill pointed out, obviously this is what birth much of the belief about flying sources. So anyway, that's what got me interested in it because as a story in trying to understand I know that's a long answer question, but as a a Storian trying to understand flying source of culture from the nineteen forties onwards or nineteen forty seven onwards, I knew I had to look back and look at some of the influencers, and certainly the Shave of influence was a massive one. And speaking of that, you mentioned Vincent Gatis, who were all these scientific pieces for Amazing Stories. Just before the Kenneth Arnold sighting, I think maybe a month or so, I'm not sure of the actual date, but just a year before that, he wrote a piece called Into the Void and he talks about UFO savings. You know, absolutely before the term flying saus was coined. Well, what's fascinating about that? You were absolutely right, Stephen, that was the June nineteen forty seven All Shaver issue of Amazing That's right, June nineteen forty seven, when Kenneth Arnold first sees the flying sources flying in front of Mount Rainier. That issue has been the most recent issue of Amazing Story. It was already on the newsstands, and you're right, Vincent Gatis is riding this piece reminiscent of Charles for talking about all these strange you know ships in the sky, these weird you know craft before the term flying sources existed. But you read it and it's a flying sorcer article, right, And I have to tell Susie there there's so much to this and we're just gonna not even scratch the surface. But you can find online. Uh. There is this great interview on long John Nevils show w O r uh and he called this has been you know, old days technology. He was talking to Richard Shaver and Ray Palmer in Wisconsin via beeper phone. So you're hearing this conversation going and every once in a while you hear the beep and so they're talking all about the Shaver mystery, and it's just one of the most fascinating conversations. I mean, Shaver's claiming things like there are certain uh skyscrapers in different cities. If you hit the basement button twice, it goes all the way down into the caverns where the darrow are. I mean, it's just it's just absolutely mind numbing. But there are there are stuff. And one of the places you can go to find this stuff is called a Faded Disks Archive. They have a lot of that stuff there. But yes, and go on, Dean, what I mean, there's a I must have I don't know three dozen books related to Shaver Palmer, the Hollow Earth, which is an offshoot of all that. Uh, you know, it's it's amazing. Now you're doing a documentary tell us about I guess maybe you should tell us about the documentary and how you got started doing that. Well, just quickly. It's fascinating you mentioned that long John Nabel show, because yeah, it's a bit of a spoiler, but my documentary starts with that radio interview. Oh excellent, that's how the inn That's actually how the documentary documentary starts. And I'll tell you another as saw it before I talk about how I got started, because I think you'll love the state is when I visited Raymond Bee Palmer, ray Palmer's son, who still lives in Amherst, Wisconsin. When I visited him, he was like, yeah, I still have the original recording of that show that we did on our end of Richard Shaver and my dad, because when you listen to the broadcast, it's very crackle, and you know, it's like nineteen fifties technology. But he has a pristine audio recording of their end of that conversation, amongst hundreds of other things. I'll tell you one other story because I think your listeners will dig this. So I got to spend some time with Ray Palmer's son at Ray Palmer's original home in Wisconsin, in well, not his original home because he was from Milwaukee, but his original home at Amherst, where both he and Richard Shaver moved literally his neighbors. That goes to show how close a friends they were, and that's part that's a story I look at in the documentary as well, because nobody really understands the timeline because nobody went and pulled out the deeds. And another spoiler for the documentary, different people have said, well, Richard Shaver moved there first, and then ray Palmer visited the area and he really liked Amherst, Wisconsin as well, so he eventually moved there. But nobody had been to Portage County. Nobody had pulled the deeds. But I live in the county next door to Portage County, so it wasn't hard for me to go and pull the deeds in the original maps. Richard Shaver and Raymond Palmer bought their properties in Amherst, Wisconsin a month the part now as my old co host on Mysterious Library, Jason MacLean, who's an incredible human being and his books are amazing, but he also works in real estate escrow. He said in the late nineteen forties when they bought these properties a month a part in the closing of the sale was simultaneous. It just meant what bank could do it first. In other words, Raymond Palmer and Richard Shaver were so close that they'd scouted properties in Wisconsin which were neighboring properties on the other side of the road, by the way, not like immediately next to each other, but they're opposite each other, ones on one side, ones on the other side. They scouted that area, and nobody's ever talked about this before. They clearly scouted that area, and they clearly decided to move from Milwaukee together to Amherst's, Wisconsin, in the middle of nowhere, and bought neighboring properties within a month of each other. Those properties were closed, so they obviously looked for properties that close together, and they bought properties that close together. So that's one of the more fascinating things I found doing some of the research of the documentary. And I think you were saying, what led me to the documentary? So I'll keep ranting and then I'll stop. Is I was again with Jason McLean on an old show I used to do called Mysterious Library. I suggested, let's do I remember Limuria because we used to do different books and different articles and things. I said, let's do I remember Imuria. Would be fun, It'd be cute. Let's look at shaev of Palmer. Now I'd been interested in this when I wrote my dissertation in Sydney, Australia. I was tell everybody what I remember La Maria came from. So I remember Lemuria was the following Shaver public this following Shaver story or letter or writing after that initial alphabet story I talked to you about before, which which called mantong which sounds very much like mantongue, and was supposedly when Shaver had cracked whatever what the original universal language was. So Palmer wrote the what was it? A ten thousand work manuscript? Right, Warning the Future Man. So Richard Shaver sent Ray Palmer a manuscript called Warning the Future Man, which apparently wasn't particularly narrative driven. It was more about the kind of Shaver mythology or the shaver of belief system, about the Darro and the Terot, and about how they got underground these beings. And while the ancient you know, Atlans and the Titans had fled to outer space because of the radiation of the Sun and the Darrow had you know, I suppose been so affected by the poison from the ancient mech machines that they had that they turned into these hideous beings that wanted nothing more than a torment and killed the surface dwellers. Well, the Terot, who were more noble, hadn't been so mutated by the machines and wanted to help us and were nice guys. But when that was written to Palma, Palmer saw the genius in it, and so he recrafted it into a story called I Remember Lamia and which we forget. Ray Palmer's responsible for all the buck Rogers e science fiction Captain Kirk people punching each other and tearing their shirts and making out with beautiful alien babes. That's from Ray Palmer. Before that, when other people ran that magazine and there was the competing magazine Astounding, all the fans wanted in there, the hardcore fans, they were only probably about a thousand of them in the country. They wanted like stories which looked at current technological developments and imagined what they would be like in fifty or one hundred years. Well, Ray Palmer was like to his writers. He would literally say the story's boring. Throw another body through the skylight like he want an action and excitement. And so I remember Imuria, which he essentially, you know, goes wrote for Richard Shaver, even though it was under Richard Shaver's byline. Is that it's filled with beautiful alien babes and you know, people being you know, bashing each other and fighting and ray gun battles and the battle for the planet Earth. And it's very much what we're used to seeing in modern science fiction today. But so he transformed that initial story and Ray Palmer wasn't comfortable saying that Richard Shaver had had these experiences in the caves, and that's how he knew because he'd access to the thought records when he visited the caves. So he said something which kind of tied in with psychological theory of the time, people like Jungan, like he said, this is a racial memory story that somehow Richard Shaver has you know, remembered from deep racial memory. In the follow up story, Shaver cut I don't know whether Palm or Shaver wrote it, but the introduction of the follow up story, Shaver comes clean and says this wasn't racial memory. This was I've had access to the Thought records because they've been in the caves, and that was kind of where it's only blew up, because then you have somebody saying, not only is this some ancient story, this stuff's still going on, and I still have contact with the Darrow and the Terot, and I've lived with them in the caves for eight years or ten years or however long. You know, he said he'd lived in the caves. It is suicide. Are you still there? I am, I'm following. Okay, good, It's a lot to follow. It's crazy. I can just see smoke coming out of your ears right now, and we're just crashing the surface. I mean, this has so many levels and so many legs. Remember Charles was a Mark cole Coux who was going to go into the Blowing Cave in Arkansas because he was convinced he had this map where he could connect with the Tarot, and he talked about being in Flint, Michigan, and on Christmas Eve in the forties, I even went to the street that he's supposed to have been on in Flint, Michigan, and one of the streets is not there anymore. It has so much changed. But I did not encounter any terror. I can say that. But it's just this is just such a fascinating story. I think people, if they want to delve into this, they should probably start with Richard Toronto's book, don't you know, you think absolutely War over theamuria Is and Savirology the follow up. Those books are they made what I'm doing now and I'm making the documentary. They made it possible. You know, Richard Toronto would already he'd really paved the way for so much I do. For example, because of because of his book where he talks about a cafe in Wisconsin where in Amherst, where where Ray Palmer would go every morning. I saw, I seeked it out and it was still there, and I got it just before it closed. It's closed now. The cafes were still run by the same family, Flemings, Catherine Flemings and the mother of the current owner or what was the current owner. Remember, I had a meeting with her. She's lovely and I was still interview. She's agreed to it. I haven't shot that interview yet, but she remembered Ray Palmer coming in because she worked for her mother in the cafe and she was one of the waitresses, I guess, and they still had memories of Palmer coming in because obviously Ray Palmer's business when he moved to Amherst was still magazines and were still books. So he would go to the post office every morning, I'm assuming to get orders and then to ship out books. On his way to the post office, he would stop at Fleming's Cafe every single morning. And this is Richard Toronto, let me know this. So as soon as I read, I'm like, what's lifting Amherst. Well, Flemy's Cafe is still there. Let's go there and talk to the people there. So again, yeah, anybody who's interested should read should read War Over the Myria. It's one of my It's one of the most influential books in my life, meaning that it's guided me so far on what I'm doing at the moment and what it does. It goes through uh Ray Palmer's life and Richard Shaver's life from the beginning, from the very beginnings, and you see how both these men, regardless of what one thinks about the Shaver mystery, you know, any any validity to it or not, these men both overcame major adversity in their lives and that really is a message that comes through in that book. Well, I think that's going to ask how much do we know about Shaver as a person. Well, thanks to Richard Toronto, we know an awful lot. Because Richard Tarno used to run a fanzine called Shavertron, and you can still buy the collected editions of Shavertron as well. By the way, he was in communication with Richard Shaver before Richard Shaver passed in nineteen seventy five. So thanks to Richard Toronto, we have this wonderful, far deeper understanding of Shaver than we would have had otherwise. And so Shaver was this character who was incredibly sincere in I think everything that he ever wrote, and he talked about these experiences with these non human race as I mentioned, or humanoid but non human race below the Earth, two of them, the Darro and the Terror. But we also know that Richard Shaver, as again Steve's talked about this extensively in the interview I did with him for my documentary, which is fantastic. But we know that Richard Shaver had psychological problems and was institutionalized for much of the period that he said he was living with the terot and the darrow under the earth. Now the question, of course becomes, can you reconcile those things that he had these experiences, but at the time he was living with this subterranean races that he was actually in mental institutions, and Ray Palmer would say yes. Ray Palmer's solution to that was, there was a nineteenth centuriy nineteenth century Biblical or Biblical or Bible I shouldn't say Biblical, a nineteenth century New Age essentially what we say New Age Bible called a WAPs a wasspy, and a wasspy talked about various levels of different spiritual beings that interacted with us, malevolent and benevolent. And it was Roger Phillips, who I mentioned before another for Amazing Stories, who introduced Ray Palmer. I believed to Auspy and Ray Palmer thought that Richard Shaver's experiences were real, but they weren't necessarily contained within the physical world. So when Richard Shaver was catatonic, as Ray Palmer said, when he was in these institutions, he was actually genuinely at another spiritual level where he was having experiences with these non human entities. Now, Richard Shaver, to give Shaver's perspectives, said, that's nonsense. All of this was real and it was physical, and it wasn't this alternative mamby pamby reality. The darro are real, the text reel, the machines are real, and he being guided out of prison and other things by the Tero, by his Terot lover and take and down into the underground area and actually lived with them. But Palmer was Palmer had a unique gift and a unique talent of being able to reconcile the real with the unreal. And perhaps the greatest example of this is when he was a baby. Palmer always claimed to have complete recollection of everything since he was born, and he claimed when he was a baby he could remember his grandmother holding him up to the kitchen window in the house in Milwaukee and showing him Hailey's comet. He was one hundred percent shore that he'd seen that, and later, as he admits in his own autobiography in the Secret World in the Martian Diary, which is part of the Secret World, which people can go and buy this old hardcover addition still on Amazon or maybe on eBay if they look around and get it for a good price. He said that he is one hundred percent sure that he saw how He's commet, but he also recognizes later that people said, well, you were still in utero, you were still in your mother's womb, when Howe's comet had moved out of any ability for a human being to see. But he was able to say, well, it's weird because they tell me that, and I believe that. I don't argue with it, but I know I saw Halle's comet. So Raymond Palmer was able to reconcile the real with the unreal, and to him, it wasn't this kind of modern positivistic world. It was far more of this forty in reality that extended beyond the realms of current science. And it's one of the reasons ray Palmer was probably one of the people most responsible for keeping the ideas of Charles Ford alive because in Amazing Stories, he was constantly talking about Charles Fort in the leading science fiction magazine on the planet, which he edited, and throughout the rest of his career he was constantly talking about Charles Fort so had no problems reconciling what he knew was a fact with what he knew was a memory. Fascinating stuff, I know. And it's on a side in that that four volume set of Shavertron, which is also fascinating. Uh. And the third volume, I believe it is. Richard Toronto scored an interview with John Keel and yes it is, and that's where he reveals that he used the term altra terrestrial as kind of a literary device, and he got he borrowed it from Ivan Sanderson, the great British naturalist. But I got the impression that that Kiel was actually angry with Shaver, because I think as a kid. This is the impression I got that he was reading those stories and they scared the hell out of them. It's funny because it is funny because Keel was aggressive in some of his descriptions or his dismissal of the Shave of Mystery. I don't know what I was saying, whether the Shave of Mystery is real or unreal. Part of the documentary again is oiler is a wonderful bit from Joshua Cutchen where he says that some people dismiss all of this as fiction, and some people believe all of this is totally real. Talking about the Shaver mystery, and Kitchen says that he he walks a line in between because he realizes how this feeds into, you know, far older and far more significant traditions or words to that extent. And I think that that Kill. I think, to be honest, I think I think Kill's approach to Shaver was unfair, and I think you might be right, Steve. I think maybe it has something to do with and the annoyance it had when he was younger, because I'm not sure what Shaver experienced or not, the only thing I'm sure of was that Shaver was one hundred percent sincere. I don't doubt that Richard Shaver was absolutely sincere with what he experienced, whether it was real, whether it was madness, whether it wasn't. But Q was normally far more flexible in his approach to what people experienced, and he wasn't that flexible with with Shaver for some reason. And you can understand how some of the stuff, if people took it to heart, what's scared that the living daylights out of him? It's terrifying. But yeah, that was uh, yeah, that was pretty that was pretty funny, and I just had, you know, I've done it again. I had this great thought Dean that I was going to expound on and now I've just lost the time. It'll it'll come back. But oh that's I know what it was. Uh. The one thing about Shaver is that whatever was going on with him, now we know that. Uh. Richard Toronto gives the example of James Tilley Matthews, who was the Weals Welsh teammergent who who back in the seventeen late seventeen hundreds. He believed U he had kind of a delusion or a mythology like like Shaver did. He believed that there was this Heirloom Gang which was really some kind of a bizarre complex device with baffles and sales and so forth, pneumatically operated air operated that would send out rays and was controlling him, just like the darro were sending out rays trying to mess with with Shaver. And and so that you know, there was that. But the influence, the influencing machine is the psychological description for that belief, Yes, exactly. But Shaver was tapped into something. It was sort of like a channeling thing. He would get, he would get this information would flow through. And we both talked about how I was telling Susie before we came on about how Ray Palmer went to Bartow, Pennsylvania. When he was getting this correspondence from Shaver. He wanted to see what this guy was all about. And of course Richard Ray Palmer is sleeping in the room next to Palmer rather Shaver and his wife, and he starts hearing this conversation. And you know, they're different people, and the supposedly something terrible it happened, and uh and and Ray Palmer interjected himself in this conversation and he was basically told to shut up. Later on he revealed that the voices were coming from Richard Shaver as he slept. And you have a story about that with Ray Palmer's daughter, right, well, yeah, Ray Palmer's daughter. And this is also in one of the Richard Toronto books. It might be in Shavirology, which is if you read War over the Muria. And I recommend everybody with any interest to interest in the unusual or the weird reads that book. It's one of my favorite books I've ever read. He has a companion book called Shavirology, and in that book he has I think Linda wrote it and sent it to Richard Toronto for publication. In the book. But Richard and I also know that that Raymond Palmer, ray Palmer's son, also remembers similar things. Is that when Richard Shaver came to Christmas dinner and to other dinners as they often did, because the Partners and the Shavers again I talked about them clearly being so close, they moved to rural middle of nowhere, Wisconsin. At the same time, when he would lay down on a couch, at least on one occasion, maybe more, when he would fall asleep, he would start to have a conversation with something else, and the sounds that came out of Richard Shaver's mouth weren't his own. There were other things talking. And you could say, well, maybe that's just Shaver having some kind of weird you know, I don't know, hypnogogic or hypnopomnic fantasy, and he's talking to himself. But it seems far eerier and far creepier than that. And as a very quick aside, this is only something I just bumped into recently listening to David Polid's YouTube videos and polites is I think one of the modern researchers that interests me moth most whether that whether that's because what he's saying is correct, or whether it's because it's just a well told narrative. I'm not sure. He's the one that has written the missing four one one books. Bizarre disappearances. Absolutely, And so he was talking recently, and it was a couple of months ago. He was talking about disappearances in Pennsylvania, which is course, of course, is where Richard Shaver was when he first started having these kind of some of these kind of experiences, and also in Michigan, which is nearby, and one of the towns that Shaver talked about, Shaver had one of the one of the towns that Polites had talked about, Shaver had actually lived in. And he tracked two other people who had those weird missing for one one type disappearances from this town that Shaver also had lived in. And so then you look at it and you go, Okay, so Polite is himself, who's obviously somebody with his finger on the pulse of the history of missing people in this country, perhaps on this planet's pointing to this town is something weird is going on here. And then you go back and new track and you go, Shaver lived in that town and I don't know what to even make of that, to be honest. And when I heard it and I went and I went, I think Shaver lived there. I went looked away, and sure enough it was one of the places that Shaver lived in. I'm not even sure. I'm not even sure what you make of that, you know what I mean? Like, it's so strange, and I'm trying to think work as soon as he worked, and I talking or writing about the Kelly Hopkinsville Goblins, and uh, I just lost his name? Who was born there? The uh? Uh? Edgar Casey? Edgar Casey the prophet, Yes, a modern day prophet. Yes, I was thinking about him as you were talking about Shaver talking in his sleep. Sounded an awful lot like that. And you know, it makes sense. You have different brain waves when you're asleep, so it might be, you know, easier for something to channel through you. That's fascinating, and that's something I think Q looked over with Shaver. I think Keel dismissed Shaver more readily than he dismissed other people that he dealt with. And I don't think that's fair, whether Shaver really again had these experiences or not. I wouldn't be dismissing Shavers as quickly as Kiel did. Right there, there's definitely something to it. Now. I kind of doubt that there is this degenerate race, uh kind of caverns with I hope anyway. I hope not too because I'm not that far at least it's now the terror or not I so they're not too far away from me. But I ever in some kind of a large skyscraper in a big city, I'm not going to press the the ground button twice. That's right, Yeah, you don't press it. It's the basement button twice, basement button, that's right. That's right. You don't hit that twice, or it will go down and you'll go down again, and you'll and that's again in the wonderful long John Nebels show you were talking about. So, when do you have any idea when this documentary will be ready? Not a fair question, but well it is fair because it's taking me longer than I hoped. I will say this. I have one extract of the documentary, and I've I've edited far more than that. But I have one extract of the documentary you just called The Shaver Mystery, and there's three parts of the Shave Mystery in the documentary, so this would be the Shave of Mystery Part one. But I am starting to festival that section now just to get kind of a buzz about the documentary. So I didn't play that at Midwest Weedfest. I've in the history of twenty years almost to me running festivals, I've only played three of my films, and I did play that short this year, and I got some positive feedback, and I'm about to start sending out the Shaver Mystery, which you feature heavily. By the way, Steve, I'm going to start sending that extract out because it stands alone to festivals this year. I hope to finish shooting the documentary this year, and I would like to think by next year the entire documentary The Man Who Invented Flying Sources will be finished, but people maybe will be able to see at least an extract of it at a festival hopefully near them sometimes that year. I'm really looking forward to it. This is a story that I'm so glad you're working on this, because I don't want this to be lost if you simply look at it as some kind of interesting pop pop culture or a footnote in history or whatever, or something monumental. It's something that needs to be told and preserved. I couldn't agree more. And it's fascinating. I mean, yes, the magazine that it was first published in was of course called Amazing Stories, but the story of Richard Shaver and Raymond Palmer and their ongoing relationship is the most amazing story I've ever heard. Like, it's phenomenal. And you kind of teed into it a little bit before when you said they've both gone through hardships. I think Richard Shaver's psychological hardships and Raymond Palmer's physical hardships, which we didn't talk about. But I think when those two people came together, it was like dynamite. It was like mixing two incredibly potent chemicals together and then the sum becomes more than the parts. And the mythological explosion, however real or not real it is, because mythology doesn't necessarily mean it's not real. But the mythological explosion that came out of that meeting is probably one of the most significant in the entire modern period. And the whole thing may have been set off by the fact that ray Palmer and Howard Brown, the other editor, didn't really get along. So when Howard Brown had found that alphabet that Shapeer sent, he called him a crack pot, watted it up, threw it in the basket, and I think probably just despite Howard Brown, Ray Palmer pulled it out and unraveled it and printed it. You know what is funny because you're right. And in Richard Toronto's War Overlamuria he lists of five reasons, like he's like, why did. There's different theories on why Ray Palmer wanted to go ahead and publish it, And one of them is to teach, you know, to teach Brown a lesson. Another one is because he was, you know, going to be like, you know, commercial dynamite. But the third one might be because he believed in the underdog. The the fourth one might be because he thought it might have been real, And the fifth one was because he because all four of the above, and I think maybe it was all four of the above. I think Palmer was canny, but he also was a true believer. I think he thought the world was far weirder than most people were ever comfortable to accept it as and he would say flying saucers are here to make us think. You know what, You're so dead right. And the funny thing is, the very first time I met his son also called Ray Palmer Raymond B. Palmer instead of Raymond A. Palmer. I hadn't been able to get a hold of him. I was driving past his house after I'd been in Amherst filming a Memorial Day parade last year. Drove past this residence and saw him outside gardening, and I thought, that's Ray Palmer's son, and I pulled in and we had a conversation, and one of the very first things he told me is exactly what you said. Then. He was like Dad always thought flying sources were here to make us think. Very good Susie, any any closing comments or thoughts. I think I have my new rabbit hole to go down after hearing all of this. Just don't get too far into the caverns. Whatever you do, well, Dana, I think we will uh, we'll wrap it up here. We could we could just go on, and I'll love to have you come back, because there's uh, there's so much you're You're just you're you're really fascinating in the uh and the work you've done. I just love to hear you, uh talk about your research and the things that you've discovered anytime, my friend, and we need to get you back on Talking Weed in the near future as well. Sounds really good, so I guess uh tell us uh how we can get a hold of you. How people can contact you, Well, they're interested in the documentary, they can go to the shape a Mystery dot com, which is pretty easy to remember, the shave of Mystery dot com and that just at the moment takes you to the Facebook page for the man who invented flying sources. You can always also find me Dean Bertram pretty easily on Facebook. My two festivals are www dot Midwest Wedfest dot com or a Night of Horror dot com, so it's easy to contact me through those as well. And please every Tuesday night at nine pm I go live on the Untold nine pm Central, I should say, not everybody's in my time zone. I go live on the Untold Radio Network with Talking Weed, and you can easily find that on YouTube, or you just go to Untold Radio Am dot com I believe is the website. Anyway, it's pretty easy to find us out there, so I hope some I hope people who listen to your show come in and listen to mine sometime as well. And I hope to have you on sometimes, Steve, and we shall also get you on Talking Weed sometimes, Susie. She's a great guest. By the way, there's nothing dull or boring about Susie. I can tell it'll be fantastic. Let's do that soon, Susie. And let's get you back soon too, Steve, because it's been at least like three or four months since I've had you own, so it's fun to get you back as well. I'd love to. It's just it's wonderful being on your show. One thing before I talked to Susie again and before we go, is it wasnt ed John's. Is that the guy that lived up north of San Francisco and had all that bizarre stuff go on his property. It's in the shaper Home Companion, the guy that thought, well, black cars and some kind of a creature is trying to get in the door. And I mean, the thing is, I just want to mention it briefly. It's like all a lot of the stuff like black cars and mysterious visitors and creatures. Again pre dating the modern day men in black and UFOs and so forth. All happened supposedly to this guy who was a dwarf I think ed ads and he corresponded with Palmer and that the story is fast edding, So people need to check out a shaper Home companion as well. Yeah, and maybe that should be my clothes, because my film's not done. And I think anybody who's interested in this type of material who's only heard about it tonight, if you want to discover more, go and check out Richard Toronto's War over Amuria, or Richard Toronto's Shavirology, or Richard Toronto's seven I think there's four or five volumes of Shavertron, and he also has the rock Fogo two volume companion, which is gorgeous and has all of We didn't even get into that, and we can't tonight. Maybe we can another time. Richard Shaver's Rock Art, where he was discovering rocks in the ground which he believed he could cut into pieces and he could look at these samples and he could see messages from ancient civilizations before us, and the Ruckferger books and gorgeous. But just go and look up Richard Toronto on Amazon and new Fondo of his books and every single one is worth reading. Excellent and thank you again Dean and Susie. Thank you so much for being here tonight. It's my pleasure. And everybody sit tight. I'll do the close out. The High Strangeness Factor was created by Steve Ward and Andy Mercer and as copyrighted on the Paranormal UK Radio Network. I want to thank our fearless leaders here at the network, Iron Alan Block, Mark Johnson and Andy Mercer. Also Andy Mercer as producer and composer of the closing theme, Brian Zeller as composer for the opening theme for The High Strangeness Factor. I can also be heard on mc maloney's Military X Files on this same network and many other platforms. And I am Steve Word, your humble host here on The High Strangeness Factor, displaced Michigander deep in the Ohio Valley in West by God, Virginia, inches from downtown Point Pleasant, living on the same road that the Mothman chased automobiles in the mid sixties. Thank you all for listening. We'll see you all again and and I will see you all again at a fortnight. Take care