WEBVTT

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From the CHECKO Kelly, And he's
been known too many years of applying GfK

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researcher specializing in an Intellivit agency involvement
in multiple assassinations prob again and other global

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criminal operations in the twentieth and twenties
first centuries. And your listeners are extremely

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March tab Yeah, yeah, that's
good. Best activated place in a media

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Kelly, August six. Allegedly,
according to that thing we call a calendar,

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twenty twenty is the year supposedly,
And here we are on a Thursday

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or Thursday night anyway. That is
what it is as I go live here

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at O'Kelly dot com. But you
could be hearing us further on down the

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stream via your final slab of choice, via the podcast, or possibly on

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one of the amr FM affiliates.
Brand new one being added this week is

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w CET in South Carolina. So
welcome to all of this, my friends.

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It's gonna be an interesting ride tonight. Carlin Sabastano, the author of

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Human time Bomb, The Violence Within
Our Nature and Two Princes and a King

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is with Me. His website is
website website very good. Website is teapoktpaak

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dot com and hopefully I don't trip
over my tongue anymore than usual. And

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with us tonight is Larry Handcock.
Now, Larry has written so many books.

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I'm not gonna take the time to
list them all because I've only got

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you know, two hours with these
guys. However, one of the latest

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ones and greatest ones as far as
I'm concerned, is in Denial. That

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is the main title, but of
course it is a longer titled book,

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and you can find out all about
that at Larry Hyphenhancock dot com ps Shadow

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Warfare The Awful Grace of God,
which he co authored someone would have talked,

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I mean, well a lot of
stuff. There sis a whole bunch

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of books Larry Hyphenhancock dot com.
Check out his blog, check out his

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stuff. You can get most of
his material on Amazon dot com, if

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not all of it, and you
can also get Carmine's books there as well.

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So there we go. Now I've
given the introductions, and tonight what

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we're going to do is we're gonna
focus a bit on the Kennedy assassination.

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For sure. Is this a myths
episode? Not necessarily, but there may

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be some mythological ideas that we're going
to kick around and discuss. So let

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me find out how everybody is first
before I actually go into something that I

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want to cover based on a past
email. Carmine, first of all,

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my friend, my co host every
other week. How are you doing,

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sir? I'm doing okay considering reality
currently. Well, we're all living through

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that, brother. I mean,
really, listen, if you feel a

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little nauseous, a little tired,
a little exhausted, welcome to twenty twenty.

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Uh, you might actually not have
your head firmly planted, you know,

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in your backside. Okay, I'm
going to be as friendly about it

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as possible. If you are disturbed, then you're probably breathing. I mean,

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it's just that simple, right.
Excuse me. Still have the cough

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by the way, in case anybody
was wondering. It's about like nine ten

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days here. Yeah, I feel
like crap, but I am getting better,

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so hopefully I won't cough on you
guys too much. However, I

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do wind up laughing a bit,
especially when I do this with Carmine and

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Larry is with us. Larry Hancock, man, listen, I have a

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great time every time you're on the
show. I'm very happy to have you

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along as as a matter of fact, we got to get you on more

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often. I do want to discuss
your new book one more time on the

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show because I wasn't fully read through
it the last time we spoke about it,

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But so we might have to do
another in Denial episode very very soon,

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if you're available, sir. I
know you're busy, and I know

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you're always writing, always blogging again, Larry Hyphenhandcock dot com is the place

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to go. But Larry, how
are you tonight, sir? I I'm

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I think, CARMI, I'm pretty
well captured it. I'm I'm doing as

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well as can be expected. Health
is good, energy levels aren't what I

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think probably any of us would hope
they would be. I'm looking forward,

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Like I saw a post basically somebody
said, I'm looking forward to celebrating you

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years. I'm going to stay up
not to watch the new one in,

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but to make sure the Owen leads. I think that pretty well captures things

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for the moment. But yeah,
I'm doing good and more. You know,

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I really expected this. Lots of
things have been canceled, lots of

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things I'm normally involved with like fairs
and festival and activities have been canceled.

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And I really thought it would be
quiet, and it's more lively than I

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had expected it would be. So
I'm awake and I'm sort of alert.

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Yeah, it's getting stranger out there. I mean, and here's the funny

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thing. There's still action going on
in the street regarding the topic of police

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brutality. Interesting that there has been
such a long stretch of protests and meanwhile

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a lot of us not really even
paying attention to that anymore. I mean,

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nothing's burning, So who cares?
Right is that where we're at?

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I mean, what a weird time
and history still with the pandemic and the

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other disease that's occupying the White House, and who knows what is going to

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come next? I mean, could
we have serious political upheaval because the selection

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process might be postponed, delayed,
or deluded to such a point that maybe

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there is no legitimacy. Nobody's going
to bother to accept the results, the

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counts or anything else. And man, this is a long, long year,

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Larry. I mean, if nothing
else, even if you're not disturbed,

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you gotta admit this year is taking
its sweet time. Grinding itself out

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of us. What do you think? Yeah, it just it kind of

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sucks everything out, you know.
I mean whatever you had planned, you

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know, something different is happening.
So whatever you had on your schedule,

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you know, that's no good.
Throw away the calendars. And I'm experiencing

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a serious time dilation effect. It's
like, wait a minute, what month

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is it? Is it all already? Did we have the election? You

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know? Has this not been going
on for five years already? Yeah,

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it's just like my whole it's like
filerhythm. The cycles are just like,

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oh, I just want to It's
like when you were sitting in third or

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fourth grade and you looked up at
the clock and you wondered when class was

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going to be over, And I
felt like seventy years between the time you

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looked up at the clock and you
looked back down at the teacher talking amazing

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stuff. I mean time dilation.
That's that's a perfect phrase, because that's

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what it's like. I mean,
just everything is stretching out, and I

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do feel kind of like like Carmine
said, like when I was a child,

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and it's like that's going to be
two hours from now, that's forever

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every hour. Right, It's like, well, I don't have to I

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don't have to worry about that until
tomorrow. That's a long way away from

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now. And you know, the
distortion and time is palatable. And it's

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funny because no matter what your persuasion
is, politically, socially, anything else,

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everybody has to admit that there is
at the very least a displacement in

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the feel as to how time is
actually moving, you know, one way

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or another. People don't know what
day it is, they don't know what

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month it is. They they have
no reason to keep track of these things.

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A lot of those marked events that
maybe people made habits out of,

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like Larry was talking about with the
festivals. I mean a lot of that

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stuff. If it's the you know
what, what do we have here?

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The oh my, it's it's the
some blossom festival is here? I don't

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remember if it's the gin blossom or
the honey blossom festival that is canceled,

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you know, near where I am
a lot of other street fairs that might

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have taken place in your locality wherever
you may be. Mister and missus listener,

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uh, you know, the the
the cultural affairs, all this stuff

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out the window. I mean,
it's not just the NFL and the you

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know, in Major League Baseball.
But go ahead. I just wanted to

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say, you know, and what
I think is two as you and I.

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I think both of us actually are
all three of us. I've just

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discussed this with Larry an Chuck off
the air. But I had a friend

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who read my books and something say, you should have wrote this year earlier.

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Yeah, well sorry, I can
only research so fast. I had

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no idea that people were going to
act almost textbook. Yeah well, if

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I had known I was fifteen,
I would have written it then. Okay,

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yeah, yeah, you know it's
we can only find the information.

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I didn't know we were going to
get a crash course in what happens in

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the degeneration of people in the society, right if they you feel bad?

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I mean here, I wrote a
book called Creating Chaos and the Curve.

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All right, that's really going to
make it feel bad. Yeah see that,

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you know what. I wasn't going
to say that to Hilarry, but

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it really sucks that you put out
Creating Chaos when you did, because quite

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frankly, it should have been put
out this year. And I mean it's

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just yeah, those would have been
two yeah, pre yeah, two good

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precursor books to have a look at
the systems and action. Now. Yeah,

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but but it would have been so
time, you know. I mean,

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I'm expecting some other author to hijack
you know, Larry's at least a

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general idea on the surface and come
out now and say, you know what,

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or maybe that's already happened. I
don't know. Well, and I

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would just add that you know,
what Larry said and what I said a

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lot of people is that it's been
said for There have been people that have

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been at the edges of society yelling
for us to pay attention that something like

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this was going to happen, and
no one wanted to believe it. Everyone

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wanted to believe that people would just
always defer to logic and they would always

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defer on the whole anyway to rationality. But that's not the way humans work.

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We're animals, we really are,
and we behave in certain patterns,

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and if you put enough pressure on
us, we snap. So you add

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all of the political division, to
the isolation, to the media with ceaseless

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division to normally occur in stress and
boom, Yeah, well, the good

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news is the good news is we
man through one question. If there was

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any question what our particular limiting cycle
was, like how often do we go

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all jump off clifs. We now
know seventy five years roughly about the lass.

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I's it. Seventy five years.
Yeah, interesting, seventy five years

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is actually a fascinating, reoccurring thing. I urge people to look that up.

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Seventy five year cycles are very interesting
for a lot of things. But

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back to this idea that you know, there are people living seemingly in alternate

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realities because they may have snapped.
I want to deal with this email.

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And it's an old one, and
it's funny because I was talking to Carmine

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earlier off air about the ridiculousness of
YouTube commentary and somebody who had gone back

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into episodes Myth six and it was
episode six of the JFK Myth series and

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it had started on me about you
know, first of all, I'm looking

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at people criticizing sherf fees. Then
I was looking at because she was on

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that one. Then I was looking
at the fact that there was somebody very

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recently making a comment that I was, you know, disinformation because I would

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not accept that George hw Bush was
in Deely Plaza. Okay, even though

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I've already given many a presentation regarding
this on more than one Myths episode.

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We've talked about it, we've mentioned
it, we've sub referenced it, we've

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shown you the pictures, We've done
all kinds of stuff, and I'm disinformation

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because I won't admit to that.
But okay, fine, that's YouTube.

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It's successful. I get it,
And welcome to our listeners on YouTube.

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I know there's some of you out
there that that's all you do, but

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sadly, look at the comments under
my shows and you'll see why I'm frustrated.

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All right, anyway back to this
or maybe you'll agree with them and

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you'll pile on whatever have at it. But here's the thing. Yeah,

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I just wanted to add so just
for show title ideas Myths letters from the

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public, because basically, these are
going to be a lot of responses to

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enduring myths that we hear over and
over that we've covered some of them,

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but they just won't go away,
so apparently they need to be brought up

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again. Yeah, Unfortunately, which
is why there's a lot of repeat material

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that's gonna occur, which is why
I haven't done a myth series lately,

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because it's like, I don't want
to do the same ones again. I

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want to do some new ones.
And we could do like, you know,

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the greatest hits run down in the
last thirty minutes or something, but

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I want to hit the new stuff. Anyway. You can't because of new

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stuff. Well, aha, there
you have it. It's the recycling of

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the same old that we end up
having to bat down over and over.

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Yeah, they recycle it. They
put a new twist on it. It's

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like, look, this is a
baseball bat and it's colored, uh,

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purple. It's like, yeah,
but it's still a baseball bat, you

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know, but it's purple. Yeah, but it's a baseball bat, dude,

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it's the same thing it was before. He is. Uh. Ideas

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are like rocks. Some people build
things with them, and some people bash

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other people in the head with them. That's perfect. Where did you get

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that from? I made that up, and that was something I said to

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somebody once. Nice Okay, quote
Carmine Savastano on that one. Ideas are

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like rocks, Some people build with
them and some people beat each other over

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the head with them perfect. Uh. On that note, I got an

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old email a while back because you
and I have discussed mk ultra, and

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we discussed it recently at length,
right, but other times that we brought

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up mk ULTRA and I talked about
the ethics involved with testing unnowing subjects with

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chemicals. Uh. And and I
talked about how this, you know,

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literally violates you know, the the
Geneva Conventions against Medical Testing international law on

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several levels, YadA, YadA,
YadA. And yet the government does participate

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in this. I pointed out in
a couple of shows and said that something

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called Shad Operation Shad had occurred under
JFK. And I got an email a

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while back and really just kind of
let it sit in my inbox because I

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didn't get a chance to address it. But I had somebody give me a

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two or three paragraph complaint about how
I made this up. And here's the

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sad thing. Right before we went
to air tonight, I asked Larry Hancock,

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do you remember Operation Shad or do
you remember a Project one twelve?

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And look, nobody can remember everything. Larry's an expert on stuff like this,

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and probably we'll find it interesting in
context, but not necessarily. Everything

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is in Larry's head at all times. So he said, no, I

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never heard of it. I said, well, I assure you it exists.

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I'll tell you what. Why don't
you just do a take whatever search

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engine you got, open it up, and just enter the following phrase ship

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board hazard and defense, which is
what shad shad stands for. If you

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do that, you will come up
with government websites admitting that this happened.

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Now, why is this worthy of
mentioning in this context? Because JFK authorized

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and Robert McNamara authorized testing basically of
exposure to chemical and biological agents to military

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men who did not know they were
being exposed to said agents. And this

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happened in the Pacific South Pacific,
excuse me, And happened in the waters

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just off the coast of I believe, Alaska, and so on and so

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on. Meanwhile, Project one twelve
is one of one hundred and fifty examinations

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of things that we're supposed to go
on during that time period. Now,

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I'm not saying that this is you
know, major headline news or anything,

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but a simple search on the Internet
would reveal to you that I didn't make

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it up. Now, I can
make mistakes, but being accused of making

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up things out of thin air because
I want to a smear John F.

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Kennedy, I'm really not one of
these guys who worships the ground he walked

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on. Nor am I one of
these guys who wants to demonize him.

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I want an objective view of his
historical relevance to be had, and I've

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got my arguments about things he did, things he didn't do, whatever.

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But bottom line is, I didn't
make it up. And I'm not even

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going to give you the link to
Shad. Here's what I want you to

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do. Google exactly the phrase,
or use whatever search engine you like Shipboard

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Hazard and Defense. Just do that
and you'll see that I didn't make it

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up. You can interpret it slightly
differently from me or whatever. But my

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point about it was test subjects and
biological or chemical agents. That was the

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point of it, and that's why
I brought it up, and that's why

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I didn't expound upon it, because
it wasn't part of MK Ultra or anything.

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It was an example of something else
where the government had participated in,

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something that was not meant to be
seen by the public. Even if you

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look at the National Security Action Memorandum
connected to it, you'll find that the

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agency in charge basically said, yeah, we don't think anybody's ever going to

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question this adequately. They're not going
to find evidence that we did this.

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I'm not kidding. By the way, go ahead and look it up.

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Please, it happened. Okay,
sorry, CARMI, go ahead. They

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might want to look up Project shed
Okay, fair enough, Project shatter,

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Project one twelve. Yeah, those
two things will work. Yeah. And

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that's you know, I mean,
it's not just the case with the Kennedy

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government. It's the case with prior
governments. It's the case with later governments.

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You know. They they did things
to prison populations, they did things

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to student populations, they did things
to military people. I've met some of

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the victims of Agent Orange that Kennedy
dispatched as well. Well. But there

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you have it. My point was
not necessarily to point at JFK aspre but

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but that was the thing. Is
even the guy that that people think of

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as squeaky clean was you know,
well, will we know about mongoose?

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No, no, no, no, no. There's plenty of stuff that

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went on, and this is just
the way of doing business. For our

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government, understand that part of it. The one person alone can stop it

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or change it. There you have
it. But my point again was only

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that you know, people always like
to say, well, Kennedy was absolutely

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opposed to covert operations and wasn't ever
part of anything that was kind of dirty

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and yet not really true. I'm
just just saying, God, go ahead.

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I was just gonna say, you
don't get to that office if you're

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not part of something dirty, thank
you. Okay, that was my whole

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point in a nutshell, And I
know I just took up time and I

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apologized, But here we go.
This is the problem with people, though,

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that want to make assertions and decide
that people are disinformation or misinformation agents

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on one level or another. But
here's your problem. If you don't have

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any information to begin with, how
are you even making that sort of claim

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against me? Okay, so first
first, maybe do a Google search or

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search on bing or I don't care
what your search engine is, Duck duck,

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go, doesn't matter. Do something, look something up before you accuse

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me of, you know, just
making up things out of thin air.

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I really don't do that on here
anyway, And I don't allow others to

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do it either. I mean,
we can speculate and we can discuss theories

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or whatever, but generally speaking,
I'll always turn to, well, what

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do you have to back that or
to make that make sense? What do

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we know in general that can be
pointed to to make it make sense.

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Sorry, that's part of my methodology, but it's never going to be made

276
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up anyway. Enough of all of
that, because now we're like twenty minutes

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deep, and I didn't mean to
even go this far. We want to

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discuss some of the prevalent myths in
the official record regarding the JFK assassination.

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Of course, we already discussed the
George HW Bush thing. But anyway,

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Larry, by the bye, I
did mention you and and used you as

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an example there, But I mean, I'm telling the truth here. This

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is exactly what went on before we
went to air, right, Oh?

283
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Absolutely. And I thought it was
interesting that the first line item that came

284
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back up in my search was a
US government public health website releasing an internal

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document study on the project. So
it wasn't it wasn't you know, questionable

286
00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:56.279
it. I was kind of actually
surprised to see something that authority show up

287
00:21:56.279 --> 00:22:02.839
as the first hit, and it's
very comprehensive in a neat event. So

288
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yeah, absolutely, yeah, And
I'm not even saying I told the whole

289
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story. It's just I'm explaining the
reference, you know, And if you

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go look for it for yourself,
as Larry did, you'll you'll find out

291
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maybe why. And it's not something
I you know, wow, he discovered

292
00:22:18.559 --> 00:22:25.000
this, It was not hard to
discover. It's just there anyway, other

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things that may or may not be
hard to discover. For that, I'm

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going to begin with Carmine and let
him sort of lead off here as we're

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already, like I said, more
than twenty minutes deep. But I want

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to get to some of this other
stuff, and who knows, we may

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have to make other references to things, maybe not necessarily on the official story,

298
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so to speak. But go go
right ahead, sir. Well I

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figured we would, you know,
we want to do both. You started

300
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with a public myth, so you
know that's recurring that people just don't seem

301
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to be you know, that they
want and that you know, And I'll

302
00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:02.480
go right into this in a second, but just to speak to that one

303
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more second, and I'm sure Larry
might have something to say about it.

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But we've all dealt with and unfortunately, we all will deal with people who

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will just make the false claim that
what you're saying is untrue or disinformation because

306
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they have no evidence for what they're
saying. In fact, we know some

307
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people can writ a series of books
like that anyway. Uh you know,

308
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I mean that's that is the unfounded
criticisms basis. They really don't have any

309
00:23:29.200 --> 00:23:32.680
evidence, They really don't have anything
to offer, so all they can do

310
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is try to tear down the person
with evidence. I mean, that's really

311
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the only defense left to them.
But it needs to be recognized that just

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criticism without any sort of basis and
rationality is useless. Being critical exactly,

313
00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:52.359
but be reasonably critical. Oh no, listen, I'm all for challenging the

314
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assertions of nearly anyone. Yeah,
you know, go for it, Bass,

315
00:23:57.440 --> 00:24:02.240
But yeah, bring something to challenge
it with, That's all I'm asking.

316
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I mean, even if you have
an anecdote from somebody who is a

317
00:24:04.200 --> 00:24:10.240
relevant witness that contradicts the official story, and you just have one anecdote,

318
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at least that's something, you know, I mean, you should bring more

319
00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:18.079
than that, because just a witness
to something happening is not really good enough

320
00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:26.359
to make a full spectrum assertion because
an individual's memory is fallible and things like

321
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this and could be mistaken. Their
perspective could have been restricted. You might

322
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not have a full view from their
vantage point being represented here. They might

323
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have missed a lot of things.
But you start putting together a bunch of

324
00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:45.480
them. You start putting together,
Oh, here's some documents that contradict this.

325
00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:49.079
Here's some other elements where there are
assertions made, and we have something

326
00:24:49.119 --> 00:24:52.960
contradicting. You know, say a
vehicle or something is supposed to be in

327
00:24:52.960 --> 00:24:56.920
a particular position at a certain time
and you find evidence that it was not

328
00:24:57.039 --> 00:25:02.200
there because it happened to be elsewhere. Now you start to have a whole

329
00:25:02.240 --> 00:25:06.319
lot of things for your argument.
Yeah anyway, yeah, yeah, you

330
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make a basis of substantial evidence.
You know, if you're gonna be critical,

331
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fine, that's good. We should
all be skeptical of everything. But

332
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you have to have a basis of
substantial evidence to be critical effectively. Otherwise

333
00:25:15.519 --> 00:25:22.200
you're just yelling exactly, And and
that's unfortunately it's not just limited to one

334
00:25:22.279 --> 00:25:27.119
side. Ah, both sides just
love to yell at each other, and

335
00:25:27.160 --> 00:25:30.440
that was one of the things I
wanted to bring up first. I think

336
00:25:30.480 --> 00:25:33.319
one of my favorite things that I
see happen over and over is people using

337
00:25:33.400 --> 00:25:38.720
outdated material to try to lecture other
people. Yeah, well that's that's one

338
00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:41.599
of my favorites. Well see,
and that's the other thing. And again,

339
00:25:41.599 --> 00:25:45.319
I'm gonna off road for a second
year because uh, you know,

340
00:25:47.039 --> 00:25:51.000
Larry just put out this book in
Denial and again I I do. You're

341
00:25:51.039 --> 00:25:56.960
gonna hear a commercial for it during
the break even and there is brand new

342
00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:03.119
information in that book, okay,
regarding the Bay of Pigs in the circumstances.

343
00:26:03.480 --> 00:26:06.960
Now, I'm not going to entirely
spoil it. We had a discussion

344
00:26:07.160 --> 00:26:11.799
which partially hit upon it the last
time that Larry and I did a show

345
00:26:11.880 --> 00:26:15.160
on the book. But here's the
thing. At all times, new information

346
00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:19.640
can be added to an equation,
and in fact, you've got to be

347
00:26:19.640 --> 00:26:25.640
careful to not have outdated information no
matter what your position is. And you

348
00:26:25.680 --> 00:26:29.160
know, Larry, if you wouldn't
mind speak to that for a second.

349
00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:33.799
Sure, I think one of the
one of the things that we're facing is

350
00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:38.839
that, especially in regard to JFK
or the Baya pis. We're so far

351
00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:45.200
from the event that most people have
locked in their heads either an opinion about

352
00:26:45.240 --> 00:26:48.920
it or their personal take on it, and they really don't want to leave

353
00:26:48.920 --> 00:26:53.160
that. And sometimes, you know, you're making a point that new information

354
00:26:53.319 --> 00:27:00.200
becomes available. I don't know if
they if they don't want to engage with

355
00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:04.359
it because they're concerned that they might
have to do just that engage with it,

356
00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:07.960
like, oh geez, if I
really take this seriously, I might

357
00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:14.640
have to change my opinion. And
you know, we've learned by now.

358
00:27:14.920 --> 00:27:19.440
The other thing I've learned for sure
is that whenever I say something that agrees

359
00:27:19.519 --> 00:27:27.079
with someone, I'm just a lot
smarter than the opposite. They do not

360
00:27:27.319 --> 00:27:30.480
want to hear what I have to
say. They want me to say what

361
00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:37.480
they're saying. You know, that's
just that's reality. And so yeah,

362
00:27:37.599 --> 00:27:41.640
it's just human nature. So for
whatever reason, there's a lot of a

363
00:27:41.839 --> 00:27:47.720
version it seems like to engage if
you go on to the forums and so

364
00:27:47.920 --> 00:27:51.599
okay, I introduced a new book, as Chuck said, and I was

365
00:27:51.640 --> 00:27:56.119
pretty specific in saying, we now
know of things about JFK and the Bay

366
00:27:56.119 --> 00:28:00.640
of Pigs that we didn't know when
the history books were, and in fact,

367
00:28:00.759 --> 00:28:06.119
we haven't known them up until this
decade, and we know things about

368
00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:11.039
the Bay of Pigs that JFK didn't
know his actions, you know, what

369
00:28:11.160 --> 00:28:15.480
he did right or wrong. He
wasn't aware of all that was going on,

370
00:28:15.480 --> 00:28:19.799
and now we know this. Okay, So that's that's a pretty striking

371
00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:26.440
historical event. So you would expect
things, especially JFK fans, if you

372
00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:30.559
would, people interested in his presidency, to engage with that. Certainly I

373
00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:34.720
did. But what I found was
after I had said that, and after

374
00:28:34.799 --> 00:28:40.759
I'd posted a couple of times,
almost like in a teasing or challenging manner,

375
00:28:41.079 --> 00:28:42.799
there was no response. And I
look back, and what I see

376
00:28:42.839 --> 00:28:49.920
are people discussing the rifle in the
school book depository. You know, who

377
00:28:51.079 --> 00:28:55.839
was Jack Ruby really, or things
that you know, things that we have

378
00:28:56.039 --> 00:29:00.440
been things that are already decided like
decades ago, fifty play and you know,

379
00:29:02.039 --> 00:29:04.599
and they're discussing them with no information. Okay, I think that's the

380
00:29:04.880 --> 00:29:08.400
that's the other point that you were
just bringing up. They're discussing them with

381
00:29:10.119 --> 00:29:17.000
the same information that we've had all
along. So how where can that possibly

382
00:29:17.240 --> 00:29:26.720
lead? I can't explain it,
but it's it's it's yeah, yeah,

383
00:29:26.799 --> 00:29:30.519
I guess it does because and it's
it's also a little bit different. I

384
00:29:30.559 --> 00:29:34.079
see. Maybe it's a comfort level, but I see more and more people

385
00:29:34.359 --> 00:29:41.279
dropping back into not what I could
would consider critical exchanges. Uh, but

386
00:29:41.680 --> 00:29:48.480
defending ter h without naming names,
I will. I recently saw a very

387
00:29:48.519 --> 00:29:55.480
good historical researcher come on to a
form and try to do a point counterpoint

388
00:29:55.960 --> 00:29:59.319
and it just didn't work. And
he dropped me a note and and said,

389
00:29:59.359 --> 00:30:03.799
you know, is this am I
wasting my time? And the answer

390
00:30:03.880 --> 00:30:10.839
really was yes, you are,
because it's it's not an open minded approach

391
00:30:10.920 --> 00:30:15.599
to the subject. People have become
fans, you know, there are fans

392
00:30:15.640 --> 00:30:19.279
of various positions, and it's like
being a fan of an entertainer. Once

393
00:30:19.319 --> 00:30:26.440
you become a fan, like if
people don't like the person you're a fan

394
00:30:26.519 --> 00:30:30.599
of, who cares? They're evil? They're you know, they you just

395
00:30:30.759 --> 00:30:33.200
don't want to hear a problem.
You know, I love this person,

396
00:30:33.400 --> 00:30:38.000
so don't even talk to me.
But that's where we are now in in

397
00:30:38.160 --> 00:30:44.079
historical research, which okay, you
can be that way as far as entertainment

398
00:30:44.119 --> 00:30:49.960
tonight is concerned, that's fine.
But history shouldn't be that way. Absolutely

399
00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:55.119
true. I just wanted to quickly
add, and I think you're correct,

400
00:30:55.160 --> 00:30:57.480
Lary, But I think what it
is is that some people don't realize the

401
00:30:57.519 --> 00:31:04.920
difference between historical research and historical fandom. They believe that historical fandom is historical

402
00:31:04.960 --> 00:31:11.039
research, and it's not because historical
fandom doesn't have evidence. Historical fandom doesn't

403
00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:17.759
have standards. Historical fandom as people
threatening each other's lives over dead people,

404
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:22.240
which is ironic. It's almost like, Okay, I want to fit history

405
00:31:22.279 --> 00:31:26.400
to my other agendas. You know. It's not history, is what it

406
00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:30.720
is. It's just I have some
other attitudes and agendas and let me look

407
00:31:30.759 --> 00:31:34.759
for some history that supports that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, how can

408
00:31:34.759 --> 00:31:40.559
I mold the story to what I
want it to be? And that's the

409
00:31:40.599 --> 00:31:44.319
danger of the parlor game. Yeah, which is fine when you're trying to

410
00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:49.200
bolster an assertion of opinion, you
know, like, look, I want

411
00:31:49.240 --> 00:31:55.720
to say that the US government does
things in the dark quite often and the

412
00:31:55.759 --> 00:31:59.400
people don't know about it, So
let me show you examples of that in

413
00:31:59.400 --> 00:32:06.680
the history. Fine, that's fine, but you can't just ignore the new

414
00:32:06.759 --> 00:32:10.839
information that doesn't put this in context. That's the thing. You know,

415
00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:17.240
all the time I go to l
Larry context. Go ahead, because this

416
00:32:17.400 --> 00:32:23.640
is important, you know, need
and absolutely needed, you know, to

417
00:32:23.799 --> 00:32:30.000
make the assertion that, you know, the the US government has always got

418
00:32:30.039 --> 00:32:34.880
the the moral high ground in every
circumstance. Okay, Look, if that's

419
00:32:34.920 --> 00:32:40.519
your opinion, that's fine, but
you're gonna have to really produce some interesting

420
00:32:40.559 --> 00:32:46.079
information to prove that one out,
you know. And I'm not saying that

421
00:32:46.119 --> 00:32:51.880
they're always on the low road either. It's just a matter of there is

422
00:32:51.920 --> 00:33:00.279
a dynamic and it emerges out of
necessity or perceived necessity. And a lot

423
00:33:00.279 --> 00:33:04.839
of circumstances are not even necessarily tied
to an agenda. They're tied to a

424
00:33:04.880 --> 00:33:09.759
reaction, and you have to examine
it understanding that there could be a variety

425
00:33:09.799 --> 00:33:15.680
of motives for these things. Okay, And again, new information is always

426
00:33:15.720 --> 00:33:21.720
good. I mean the stuff in
Larry's book. Again, you know,

427
00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:30.759
it should be added to the historical
understanding of a key circumstance when examining the

428
00:33:30.799 --> 00:33:36.240
presidency and even the assassination of John
F. Kennedy. Yeah, okay,

429
00:33:36.279 --> 00:33:40.480
it is significant in any new information, even beyond what Larry has put out

430
00:33:40.599 --> 00:33:45.119
or beyond, you know, the
the revelations about well gee, you know,

431
00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:50.839
field commanders might have had control of
what they call tactical nuclear weapons during

432
00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:54.519
that time. This is relevant stuff. Whether it was known at the time

433
00:33:54.640 --> 00:33:59.599
or not, whether it was known
twenty years later or not, it's relevant

434
00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:04.440
and you got to examine the whole
of the circumstance anyway. With that,

435
00:34:04.799 --> 00:34:07.720
like I said, I turn it
back over to your Carmine. Well,

436
00:34:07.839 --> 00:34:09.039
yeah, no, no, I
think that those were good points, and

437
00:34:09.079 --> 00:34:14.960
I think what Larry said is important
because a lot of people are engaged,

438
00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:17.800
and I'm sure all three of us
and maybe even many of the listeners have

439
00:34:17.880 --> 00:34:25.000
experienced people who are unreasonable, people
who are not there, and unfortunately it's

440
00:34:27.320 --> 00:34:30.840
troubling. But I suppose to me
because I saw it so much at one

441
00:34:30.880 --> 00:34:36.159
time, amusing at the same time
that there are actually people creating little mini

442
00:34:36.239 --> 00:34:43.360
conspiracies amongst themselves to prove the bigger
conspiracy. So there are competing factions among

443
00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:49.760
factions as where like you'll notice on
the people who support the government's position are

444
00:34:49.800 --> 00:34:52.400
pretty monolithic for the most part,
not all of them. I think that

445
00:34:52.440 --> 00:34:57.760
we have some friends that aren't part
of the monolith who are who might disagree

446
00:34:57.800 --> 00:35:00.159
with us on the end of the
case, but they agree with us there

447
00:35:00.159 --> 00:35:04.960
are certainly problems and there were certainly
illegalities that occurred that need to be investigated.

448
00:35:05.719 --> 00:35:07.599
So and I think that's the most
reasonable position the people who are somewhere

449
00:35:07.599 --> 00:35:10.159
in the middle, not the people
who think it had to be a huge

450
00:35:10.159 --> 00:35:15.000
plot, which it wasn't because they
can't prove that, or the people who

451
00:35:15.079 --> 00:35:17.360
think nothing happened except for Lee Harvey
Oswald, because that can't be proven either

452
00:35:19.400 --> 00:35:22.400
was he. And there's the thing
we can come to an agreement though,

453
00:35:22.599 --> 00:35:25.559
that you know, his his right
to legal representation, that he was complaining

454
00:35:25.559 --> 00:35:30.519
about Lee Harvey Oswald, that is
is a valid complaint, Yeah, Or

455
00:35:30.559 --> 00:35:35.159
the presumption of innocence, or the
not using criminal standards, or that he

456
00:35:35.239 --> 00:35:38.079
was murdered before he got any sort
of due process or you know. Yeah,

457
00:35:38.159 --> 00:35:40.920
there's a lot of good, legitimate
legal complaints to be made, and

458
00:35:40.960 --> 00:35:46.239
to dismiss those because you believe what
the government says is the same as dismissing

459
00:35:46.280 --> 00:35:50.880
all of the government's claims because you
believe in what Judy Baker says. Yeah,

460
00:35:50.920 --> 00:35:53.280
exactly. So with that, like
I said, let's get into this

461
00:35:53.320 --> 00:35:55.960
specific well, and I'm going into
it. So let's go into some of

462
00:35:57.000 --> 00:36:00.599
the ridiculous things that just in the
last ten years, uh, some of

463
00:36:00.639 --> 00:36:04.199
them from some of us, you
know, not just people here, but

464
00:36:04.239 --> 00:36:07.119
people we know, you know,
from the the people who are actually what

465
00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:09.679
I consider more reasonable, that are
using evidence to prove things rather than trying

466
00:36:09.679 --> 00:36:15.320
to beat people about the head with
their ideas. And one of the people

467
00:36:15.519 --> 00:36:20.440
a name I would offer is Jacques
Richardson, and I'll throw in the references

468
00:36:20.480 --> 00:36:23.960
the show we did on him.
But Jacques Richardson, who for a long

469
00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:30.800
time was known as Thomas Casson or
Cassison, I always mispronounced off to ask

470
00:36:30.880 --> 00:36:36.880
Allen Dale again, has I believe
that because it rhymes with assassin or sounds

471
00:36:36.920 --> 00:36:40.360
like assassin, I always pronounced it. But that's okay, Yeah, I

472
00:36:40.400 --> 00:36:45.639
know I've heard Casasin, Cassassin,
Cassison, and I never even try to

473
00:36:45.679 --> 00:36:49.039
pronounce it. I have a hard
enough time of spelling it, so I

474
00:36:49.079 --> 00:36:52.760
think that most fair enough. But
now we know who we're talking about.

475
00:36:52.880 --> 00:36:55.880
Yeap, Yes, but his real
name is Jaques Richardson. Let's let's throw

476
00:36:55.920 --> 00:37:02.280
away the harder to pronounce pseudonym Richardson. So Jackson Richardson is a person who,

477
00:37:02.360 --> 00:37:07.119
in an official cable, told another
CIA officer that he considered using Lee

478
00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:13.039
Harvey Oswald. But every day almost
we hear in a group or online or

479
00:37:13.039 --> 00:37:16.760
by the press that they would never
have considered using him. Yeah, guess

480
00:37:16.760 --> 00:37:22.960
what, that's not true. They
lied to you. They would they might

481
00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:28.719
have they And that doesn't mean that
the whole of the CIA was in agreement,

482
00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:32.000
No, No, it just means
this one guy told another guy,

483
00:37:32.079 --> 00:37:37.280
who both happened to be CIA officers, on the record that you know what,

484
00:37:37.400 --> 00:37:39.639
he might have some information we could
use. Yeah, and we've also

485
00:37:39.800 --> 00:37:45.599
had a show where we've discussed how
there was no problem using a paranoid schizophrenic.

486
00:37:45.679 --> 00:37:51.239
Basically, yeah, forty operation callery, right. I mean to say

487
00:37:51.280 --> 00:37:54.039
that, oh, they wouldn't have
used somebody because they weren't, you know,

488
00:37:57.880 --> 00:38:01.360
you know, is absolutely ludical.
I mean. And also even here's

489
00:38:01.480 --> 00:38:07.320
here's another thing. Let's let's do
this really quickly, dirtily, dirtily.

490
00:38:07.400 --> 00:38:14.719
That's funny. You know, when
the CIA did collaborate with organized crime,

491
00:38:15.599 --> 00:38:22.320
do you think they gave them psychological
evaluations before they decided to work with them.

492
00:38:22.320 --> 00:38:25.360
Mister ROSELLI tell me, have you
ever slit someone's throat and had bad

493
00:38:25.480 --> 00:38:31.039
thoughts afterwards? Does that give you
nightmares? Sir? You know, come

494
00:38:31.079 --> 00:38:37.159
on, let's get right. When
you're robbing a business, do you feel

495
00:38:37.199 --> 00:38:40.519
bad afterwards? Yeah, after you
bust out a local business owner, I

496
00:38:40.519 --> 00:38:46.920
mean, are there are their feelings
of regret? However, let me offer

497
00:38:46.960 --> 00:38:52.480
a counter All that is true.
However, there's another thing we've learned,

498
00:38:52.480 --> 00:38:59.719
and after having read umpty ump psychological
profiles and polygraphs, what they were interested

499
00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:07.519
in was whether or not someone would
a be useful and be reliably useful.

500
00:39:07.719 --> 00:39:12.559
They might not have been concerned about
any Let let's take a look at at

501
00:39:12.760 --> 00:39:17.960
staff D. Staff D in the
CIA under William Harvey, its role was

502
00:39:19.079 --> 00:39:24.199
to uh do burglaries, to do
break ins, to do strong arm attacks

503
00:39:24.239 --> 00:39:32.880
on couriers, basically to do whatever
was necessary to get codebooks and coded messages

504
00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:39.880
and and basically stuff that the NSA
and that the other side of the CIA

505
00:39:40.079 --> 00:39:45.360
was doing analysis could use. So
were they concerned about using career criminals?

506
00:39:45.679 --> 00:39:52.199
No, they needed career criminals their
It's like here's my profile. It's like,

507
00:39:52.320 --> 00:39:57.400
okay, I want somebody who's really
reliable, who's done this lots of

508
00:39:57.480 --> 00:40:01.679
times, does not make mistakes,
is really effective, and you know,

509
00:40:01.920 --> 00:40:08.000
so they went out and the Office
of Security essentially contacted the FBI said kind

510
00:40:08.039 --> 00:40:13.360
of like, who can't you catch? You know who does this stuff?

511
00:40:13.719 --> 00:40:19.159
And I want them, and it's
okay, I'll tell you when I'm using

512
00:40:19.199 --> 00:40:23.880
them so you don't arrest them.
Then okay, but you've also got to

513
00:40:23.880 --> 00:40:29.039
put yourself in that. The CIA
is, you know, from a task.

514
00:40:29.119 --> 00:40:31.800
It's this is my task, So
who do I want the same thing

515
00:40:31.880 --> 00:40:39.679
with DEA. With when the CIA
started expanding its operations in Latin America in

516
00:40:39.800 --> 00:40:46.400
the sixties, basically it went to
DEA and said, you know, I'd

517
00:40:46.400 --> 00:40:52.599
really like list of the drug smugglers
that you're aware of, because I really

518
00:40:52.679 --> 00:40:55.400
want the big ones, the good
ones, the ones you guys can't catch,

519
00:40:55.920 --> 00:41:00.920
because I may, indeed to smuggle
some stuff out or in, and

520
00:41:01.679 --> 00:41:05.760
you know, would you set me
up? And then you find a letter

521
00:41:05.800 --> 00:41:08.400
coming back from the DEA saying,
well, we gave you that list,

522
00:41:08.440 --> 00:41:14.719
but now we find out those people
that we were using as sources on smuggling

523
00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:19.079
aren't talking to us anymore, and
we think they're just talking to you and

524
00:41:19.119 --> 00:41:25.559
that you stole them. So there's
also a very pragmatic, practical reality check

525
00:41:25.599 --> 00:41:30.119
on this too. It's not just
ethics. Of course, they will use

526
00:41:30.159 --> 00:41:34.199
people that they need to do things
that are good at doing those things.

527
00:41:34.679 --> 00:41:37.239
Yeah. Yeah, no, no, I totally agree with that. I

528
00:41:37.239 --> 00:41:40.000
think the problem is that where we
run into problems is is no matter how

529
00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:45.440
well intentioned they are, there's two
things that automatically occur when they do so

530
00:41:45.519 --> 00:41:49.599
that we saw happen over and over. One, they're bad judges of character.

531
00:41:50.719 --> 00:41:54.639
They're very bad judges of character,
fair enough, but in the queues,

532
00:41:54.960 --> 00:41:59.960
Yeah, they automatically connect themselves to
criminality forever. That will be discus.

533
00:42:00.639 --> 00:42:06.119
Oh, although I might argue her
mind that I'm maybe they're really good

534
00:42:06.199 --> 00:42:12.639
judges a character because they picked the
guys that are the most benal. I

535
00:42:12.639 --> 00:42:15.960
mean maybe, but I'm talking about
what your qualifications were. Well, okay,

536
00:42:16.039 --> 00:42:22.480
yeah, what you said earlier,
like that they were reliable effective,

537
00:42:25.599 --> 00:42:29.960
That's how effective they were. Yeah. It brings to mind a couple of

538
00:42:30.199 --> 00:42:36.519
uh of things from the jfk assassination, where you know, someone would refer

539
00:42:36.639 --> 00:42:42.559
a lead to an investigative committee or
whatever, and the response would be,

540
00:42:43.199 --> 00:42:46.639
well, you said that I should
go talk to these people, but you

541
00:42:46.679 --> 00:42:53.199
know they have criminal connections, and
you know, should I believe them or

542
00:42:53.239 --> 00:42:57.000
they've been involved in crimes. You
know, it's just going to be a

543
00:42:57.079 --> 00:43:00.400
useful lead. And it's like the
response would be, well, we could

544
00:43:00.440 --> 00:43:06.800
introduce you just to like the local
charities and you know, a covenant of

545
00:43:06.920 --> 00:43:09.480
nuns, and you know you could
go talk to them, but they probably

546
00:43:09.559 --> 00:43:15.719
don't know what you want to know. And see that's the thing. And

547
00:43:15.880 --> 00:43:19.760
also, let's keep in mind,
does get away from criminality for a minute.

548
00:43:19.760 --> 00:43:23.840
If you just need an actor to
go out and sort of ferret out

549
00:43:23.920 --> 00:43:29.840
other people, you could say,
hire somebody who is quite happy to make

550
00:43:29.960 --> 00:43:32.559
a spectacle out of themselves, like
say, by I don't know, handing

551
00:43:32.599 --> 00:43:40.119
out pro Castro flyers in an area
where it's going to either upset anti Castro

552
00:43:40.239 --> 00:43:46.360
people or draw out others who might
be sympathetic. Because this person is just

553
00:43:46.440 --> 00:43:51.360
simply willing and happy to go out
and do that. They don't have to

554
00:43:51.400 --> 00:43:54.599
be proficient in anything else. They
can be useful as sort of a phishing

555
00:43:54.679 --> 00:44:00.519
lure one way or another. So
again it's situational Larry, isn't it.

556
00:44:01.239 --> 00:44:06.599
Oh, it's absolutely and I think
you really captured something there. It's totally

557
00:44:06.679 --> 00:44:13.039
situational and and in reality, you've
got to put yourself in the mind of

558
00:44:13.639 --> 00:44:17.960
the portion of the CIA that might
find a use for Lee Oswell. You

559
00:44:19.000 --> 00:44:22.840
know, a bland statement that we
would not use Lee Oswell as a spy

560
00:44:23.519 --> 00:44:28.760
is as you know, that might
be sane, But the point is Lee

561
00:44:28.840 --> 00:44:34.840
Oswell's been to Russia and he comes
back, and if I'm in domestic operations,

562
00:44:35.360 --> 00:44:38.039
am I not going to try to
get information from this guy? Well?

563
00:44:38.119 --> 00:44:42.800
Of course there are parts. There
are lots of parts to the CIA,

564
00:44:43.320 --> 00:44:46.039
and if I didn't, I wouldn't
be doing my job. The thought,

565
00:44:46.280 --> 00:44:52.320
the thought, and of course now
we can prove it that domestics contacts

566
00:44:52.320 --> 00:44:57.280
did get information from him and was
interested in him. But it's just there's

567
00:44:57.280 --> 00:45:00.119
got to be a sanity test on
that. Of course, there are are

568
00:45:00.239 --> 00:45:05.039
elements of the CIA and that for
that matter, of the FBI. We

569
00:45:05.199 --> 00:45:09.480
know that the FBI contacted le os
Will after his return, and it's in

570
00:45:09.559 --> 00:45:13.800
their report that he says, oh, yeah, I will let you know

571
00:45:14.639 --> 00:45:21.280
if anyone comes in contact to me
that might be subversive or you know,

572
00:45:21.920 --> 00:45:28.360
interested in violating what he volunteered to
be a source for the FBI. So

573
00:45:28.480 --> 00:45:31.800
why would you be surprised when after
he gets abusted in New Orleans he wants

574
00:45:31.840 --> 00:45:37.719
to talk to the FBI? Right, just amazing? Well, yeah,

575
00:45:37.760 --> 00:45:40.639
and look from a more pragmatic standpoint
in case somebody's saying, okay, well

576
00:45:40.679 --> 00:45:46.000
this is very fanciful and very interesting. I mean, what is useful and

577
00:45:46.039 --> 00:45:49.960
what is situational? Well, let's
look at it this way, and how

578
00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:54.079
much of an asset does somebody have
to be to be useful in an operation.

579
00:45:54.639 --> 00:45:59.239
Let's take it to a whole other
realm. You want to find out

580
00:45:59.239 --> 00:46:02.599
where the drug deals are. Ask
a junkie. Now, is that junkie

581
00:46:02.599 --> 00:46:08.679
normally reliable? Is he normally the
guy you want to go to for information?

582
00:46:08.840 --> 00:46:13.800
Not necessarily so, But I bet
if you have a little bit of

583
00:46:13.800 --> 00:46:16.719
pressure on him, like, hey, look, we won't bust you for

584
00:46:16.840 --> 00:46:21.320
possession this time or put you in
for three years because you got caught.

585
00:46:22.599 --> 00:46:25.679
If you just tell us where a
couple of drug dealers are, Suddenly the

586
00:46:25.760 --> 00:46:32.000
junkie's pretty useful if they don't know
where the dealers are. And yeah,

587
00:46:32.159 --> 00:46:37.920
yeah, and it becomes dangerous to
the people that provide him with the drugs

588
00:46:37.960 --> 00:46:43.400
because he could become an informant.
And that makes a lot more sense to

589
00:46:43.480 --> 00:46:45.599
explain some of the You know,
as I've said before, it's not definitive

590
00:46:45.639 --> 00:46:47.800
any in any way. Anyone that
tells you they know the answer of the

591
00:46:47.880 --> 00:46:52.119
JFK case is lying to you.
Right, No one knows the answer yet,

592
00:46:52.840 --> 00:46:58.039
but there is certainly a substantial amount
of evidence to suggest that it is

593
00:46:58.119 --> 00:47:00.639
not the official answer. And as
I was talking about outdated information, you

594
00:47:00.679 --> 00:47:02.880
know, just the other day in
one of the groups that I'm one of

595
00:47:02.880 --> 00:47:09.719
the Edmunds in, somebody brought up
Gerald Posner's book from nineteen ninety two that's

596
00:47:09.840 --> 00:47:16.400
before the the ARB. Well,
not only does he not have any of

597
00:47:16.440 --> 00:47:20.639
that evidence, he doesn't have any
of the new evidence. So how could

598
00:47:20.639 --> 00:47:24.079
you possibly say that that book is
in any way definitive about anything. You

599
00:47:24.159 --> 00:47:29.719
might as well go read the Warren
Commission. There you have it. That's

600
00:47:29.719 --> 00:47:35.280
about how contemporary it is. Well, and let me add a piece of

601
00:47:35.360 --> 00:47:38.719
new information. I think that it
actually is going to be showing up in

602
00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:44.559
my final work, which should be
out by the end of the next month.

603
00:47:44.559 --> 00:47:50.079
On the Mary Ferrel site. We've
all there's been a statement made that

604
00:47:50.199 --> 00:47:55.800
you know, nobody in the CIA
CI operations, CIA, say at JM.

605
00:47:55.840 --> 00:48:07.079
Wade really would have known about Lee
Oswald. Now, what is interested

606
00:48:07.199 --> 00:48:12.679
is a piece of new information that
and I can only touch on it here.

607
00:48:12.719 --> 00:48:16.800
But the point is, if you
look at his activities in New Orleans,

608
00:48:17.760 --> 00:48:24.000
the first person that he contacted about
kind of entering the Cuban scene in

609
00:48:24.079 --> 00:48:30.440
New Orleans was fellow at the A
Language School. Well, as it turns

610
00:48:30.480 --> 00:48:34.199
out, the fellow at the language
school was not a not only a close

611
00:48:34.239 --> 00:48:43.199
friend to Brinear, he was Yeah, he was the brother of a senior

612
00:48:43.519 --> 00:48:52.800
SaaS CIA officer stationed at jam Wave
who was working projects against Cuban diplomats in

613
00:48:52.840 --> 00:49:00.079
New York City and Mexico City.
This guy's father was also New Orleans ultra

614
00:49:00.159 --> 00:49:04.760
right. But the point is you
had the first person that contacts the first

615
00:49:04.760 --> 00:49:09.480
person that would have known anything about
Lee Oswald, and the first person who

616
00:49:09.559 --> 00:49:17.360
actually tapes the debate with Lee Oswald
and the guy from INCA and integrates it

617
00:49:17.400 --> 00:49:28.559
into propaganda is the brother of a
SASS information's officer or an inteligence officer at

618
00:49:28.639 --> 00:49:34.440
Jmway. And if you don't think
that that information was shared between New Orleans

619
00:49:34.639 --> 00:49:39.760
and Jmway, you are being awfully
nigive. Well, I just wanted to

620
00:49:39.760 --> 00:49:44.280
add real quick too, that you
know at all of that, then you

621
00:49:44.360 --> 00:49:49.119
look at I mean even before decades
ago, when people found out Richard Sneyder's

622
00:49:49.119 --> 00:49:53.480
connection to the CIA. When Oswald
gets there, Oswald, it's a net.

623
00:49:54.480 --> 00:49:58.840
The whole thing is a net.
There's no way the CEA I didn't

624
00:49:58.880 --> 00:50:02.400
know. And Richardson firms that they
knew about Oswald while he was in Russia.

625
00:50:04.159 --> 00:50:08.639
They've known about him for years at
that point, so to say that

626
00:50:08.719 --> 00:50:12.880
they didn't know is just a lie. We can see in their files they

627
00:50:12.920 --> 00:50:20.719
knew. But we still find that
disgust. It's just to make a list

628
00:50:20.800 --> 00:50:23.719
of things that we really just don't
even worry about anymore, you know,

629
00:50:23.840 --> 00:50:30.400
take this for granted. Uh,
Yeah, Oswald was a source. Oswald

630
00:50:30.519 --> 00:50:37.280
well known he was. I was
shocked, I had to say, and

631
00:50:37.440 --> 00:50:40.199
here's a confession. Shock of the
many things I don't know, I was

632
00:50:40.239 --> 00:50:46.239
shocked to find out and researching that
particular thing, that information had been provided

633
00:50:46.280 --> 00:50:53.159
both to ciapace officers and d R
E. Headquarters in Miami, and that

634
00:50:53.480 --> 00:51:01.320
in late August and September, multiple
Cuban exile organizations had written pieces about Leonswald

635
00:51:01.679 --> 00:51:08.039
and written complaints to Congress naming him, naming him as a danger as an

636
00:51:08.039 --> 00:51:15.360
illustration of how Cuba was subverting I
mean, this guy, this lone nut

637
00:51:15.519 --> 00:51:20.960
that nobody knew about, was the
subject of multiple let protest letters to Congress

638
00:51:21.159 --> 00:51:27.280
from Cuban exile groups. The same
Cuban exile groups were holding supposedly secret meetings

639
00:51:27.320 --> 00:51:30.519
in Chicago that Richard Kine said he
heard about where they were talking about assassinating

640
00:51:30.559 --> 00:51:36.760
the president. Yes, it just
the fact that you could complain that this

641
00:51:37.000 --> 00:51:39.800
was a guy was a loan nut
and totally off the radar, like kind

642
00:51:39.800 --> 00:51:43.840
of like Phillips does in Mexico City's
like, oh, he was never even

643
00:51:43.840 --> 00:51:47.360
on the radar. What ard were
you looking at, David? You know,

644
00:51:47.519 --> 00:51:51.280
he's on all of the radars.
That might have been true for a

645
00:51:51.280 --> 00:51:53.920
couple of the days he was there. One of them, he wasn't on

646
00:51:53.960 --> 00:51:59.039
the radar because someone else calling themselves
in once we checked at eleven pm at

647
00:51:59.119 --> 00:52:02.360
nine and he was not on the
radar on a well and you know of

648
00:52:02.360 --> 00:52:06.920
course Jade Or Hoover never heard of
him either, right, I mean again,

649
00:52:07.840 --> 00:52:12.119
yeah, after he called to what
Hosty and the guy in New Orleans.

650
00:52:12.360 --> 00:52:15.880
I can't remember that guy's john something
Liggett is that I can't remember his

651
00:52:15.960 --> 00:52:20.360
name? Oh no, No,
Liggett was one of the medical people.

652
00:52:20.519 --> 00:52:27.800
Uh yeah, Oh that should come
to me, the one FBI officer in

653
00:52:27.880 --> 00:52:34.599
New Orleans that was actually blocked by
Lindon Johnson from offering information to the Garrison

654
00:52:34.639 --> 00:52:40.760
investigation. Oh anyway, so yeah, I think we could pretty well,

655
00:52:42.360 --> 00:52:45.440
I think we can pretty well kill
that as a myth at this point in

656
00:52:45.519 --> 00:52:49.639
time. It's just like, do
not use any more calories of energy discussing

657
00:52:49.719 --> 00:52:52.960
that. Yeah. No, he
had to have been known to most of

658
00:52:52.960 --> 00:52:57.360
the intelligence groups and likely others like
the NSA, who might have kept all

659
00:52:57.360 --> 00:53:00.559
the copies of everything that they got
from everyone else. See. The only

660
00:53:00.599 --> 00:53:06.039
intelligence organization that I believe had no
awareness of Oswald was guess what, the

661
00:53:06.079 --> 00:53:12.679
Secret Service. I don't think they
were ever communicated to about this, but

662
00:53:12.840 --> 00:53:19.119
every other agency pretty much that was
concerned with intelligence had this guy somewhere in

663
00:53:19.159 --> 00:53:22.679
their files one way or another.
I mean, oh, go ahead,

664
00:53:22.719 --> 00:53:24.960
you're right, Jack, and you
know why the Secret Service didn't know Now

665
00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:30.039
this is you want to talk about
irony and black humor. The only reason

666
00:53:30.119 --> 00:53:35.000
the Secret Service would have known about
Lee Oswald if he had been is if

667
00:53:35.039 --> 00:53:39.840
he had been reported as a threat, and you'd to protect a services file

668
00:53:40.480 --> 00:53:46.440
like okay, no, everybody else
is doing collections, but the Secret Service

669
00:53:46.519 --> 00:53:50.760
is only interested in threats. And
no, he's not a threat. Never

670
00:53:51.119 --> 00:53:54.679
nobody ever suggested him being a threat. He never, he never said a

671
00:53:54.760 --> 00:54:00.000
word. Just about that for a
minute. This guy is in doubt,

672
00:54:00.760 --> 00:54:04.360
right, he's in He's in the
heart of what we now consider, you

673
00:54:04.400 --> 00:54:08.360
know, a red state, as
anti Castro, anti Cubans, fossil and

674
00:54:08.440 --> 00:54:13.519
he's he talks to lots of people. He talks to people at work.

675
00:54:13.599 --> 00:54:17.039
He does talk to people. But
clearly you know in the one place that

676
00:54:17.119 --> 00:54:22.880
you might expect a threatening comment to
report. Oh this dirty comedy doesn't like

677
00:54:22.880 --> 00:54:28.559
the resident. Nope, nothing about
Lee Oswell ever, right right, and

678
00:54:28.559 --> 00:54:30.280
and not as though they didn't have
a list of names, they had these

679
00:54:30.320 --> 00:54:35.960
little books that they used stab with
the with the picture and the vital statistics

680
00:54:36.000 --> 00:54:37.679
on everybody who would have been a
threat. This is part of what the

681
00:54:37.679 --> 00:54:44.280
advanced teams. Did you know.
I'm not exactly thrilled with the Kennedy detail

682
00:54:44.320 --> 00:54:51.119
book, but it illustrates exactly how
these guys would behave and Osweald's not part

683
00:54:51.159 --> 00:55:01.400
of that book of possible threats in
the area. Just yes, okay,

684
00:55:01.440 --> 00:55:05.440
and here's another myth. Okay,
I'm gonna I'm gonna bring this up as

685
00:55:05.440 --> 00:55:08.480
a myth. Commie, all right, you may have already a listed Let's

686
00:55:08.519 --> 00:55:12.840
talk about security in Dallas. I
mean, one of the myths that I

687
00:55:12.920 --> 00:55:22.400
still see discussed constant is you know
the Secret Service didn't you know JFK was

688
00:55:22.480 --> 00:55:24.760
sacrificed in Dallas because they wanted to
be killed. They were part of the

689
00:55:24.760 --> 00:55:32.880
conspiracy. What we know now is
that the Dallas police and the Secret Service

690
00:55:34.440 --> 00:55:38.559
went to an immense amount of trouble
because Dallas had been a hot bed of

691
00:55:38.639 --> 00:55:44.880
violent protest. I mean, Linda
Johnson and Ladybird had been chased down streets

692
00:55:44.880 --> 00:55:51.639
in Dallas and hidden in hotels by
what violent women's protesters. You had Atlie

693
00:55:51.679 --> 00:55:57.559
Stevenson beaten with signs in Dallas.
There was a real concern in Dallas.

694
00:55:57.920 --> 00:56:02.400
And when Lawson says in his Secret
Service report, that they took special considerations.

695
00:56:02.440 --> 00:56:07.840
Yeah, they built, they built
mug file books, they built they

696
00:56:07.880 --> 00:56:12.960
went out and interviewed people, They
interviewed reporters, they collected photos, and

697
00:56:13.079 --> 00:56:17.840
they built up this big case book
of people that were felt to be likely

698
00:56:17.920 --> 00:56:25.239
to be violent, violent and protesting
demonstrations. There was a large effort to

699
00:56:27.159 --> 00:56:32.199
deal with that because they considered the
security threat primarily to be violent demonstrations and

700
00:56:32.280 --> 00:56:38.119
primarily at the Trade Center, right, And that's why everybody, really from

701
00:56:38.519 --> 00:56:43.719
the head of the Dallas Police security
detail for the trip was at the Trade

702
00:56:43.760 --> 00:56:47.199
Center. That's so. I mean, you can argue about what happened on

703
00:56:47.280 --> 00:56:52.599
Elm Street all you want to,
but the thought that the Secret Service and

704
00:56:52.719 --> 00:56:58.199
the Dallas Police were not concerned about
security or threats to the president that they

705
00:56:58.239 --> 00:57:02.679
were aware of is simple not correct. Well, Also, Decker Sheriff's Department

706
00:57:02.760 --> 00:57:07.199
did work in advance of this.
Uh you know, Jesse Curry had commented

707
00:57:07.280 --> 00:57:12.159
on it a bit before he died, for sure about the fact that there

708
00:57:12.159 --> 00:57:15.400
were preparations in places that were taking
by law enforcement. Now you can say

709
00:57:15.400 --> 00:57:20.599
that they were inadequate, obviously because
the man's dead. But I mean,

710
00:57:20.679 --> 00:57:22.679
I'm just saying that there were efforts
taken here. It was not like,

711
00:57:22.800 --> 00:57:27.559
Okay, everybody take a break and
have a beer. That didn't happen,

712
00:57:27.960 --> 00:57:32.360
although although I was gonna say,
I would note at least four Secret Service

713
00:57:32.360 --> 00:57:39.159
agents did decide had been drinking.
Again, I'm not trying to defend individuals,

714
00:57:39.480 --> 00:57:45.559
but but the point is from a
from a an agency level, from

715
00:57:45.639 --> 00:57:52.199
a loss and level, from a
it's just making a general blanket statement that

716
00:57:52.440 --> 00:57:58.239
there were no security cautions and nobody
worried about it. Basically, what they

717
00:57:58.239 --> 00:58:02.039
were doing is and this is you
know, it's nothing new. You tend

718
00:58:02.119 --> 00:58:07.079
to prepare for the threats that you
know about and anticipate, and the Secret

719
00:58:07.119 --> 00:58:14.239
Service was tuned in to close and
personal. You look at the presidents who

720
00:58:14.280 --> 00:58:19.280
had been attacked and killed, they
were done close range. Why people with

721
00:58:19.360 --> 00:58:22.840
pistols and so in Dallas, they
were really concerned about that. They were

722
00:58:22.880 --> 00:58:28.039
worried about people getting too close to
them, and they were worried about the

723
00:58:28.079 --> 00:58:31.000
protest. Now, right, the
is that you always get out flanked.

724
00:58:31.079 --> 00:58:35.840
It's kind of like nine to eleven. It's the one that gets you is

725
00:58:35.880 --> 00:58:39.000
the one that you weren't preparing well. Right, And look evidence really quickly

726
00:58:39.039 --> 00:58:43.719
before we go to break here.
Evidence of the fact that there was some

727
00:58:43.800 --> 00:58:50.039
forethought involved here can be seen in
the reality that Jesse Curry, the day

728
00:58:50.079 --> 00:58:55.199
before his visit to Dallas, was
on television basically stating that no sort of

729
00:58:55.599 --> 00:59:00.920
you know, protest or you know, a disturb would be tolerated, and

730
00:59:01.079 --> 00:59:07.239
all this kind of stuff happened in
advance of Kennedy getting there. So I'm

731
00:59:07.320 --> 00:59:12.079
just saying there were efforts taken.
Now, were they adequate, Well,

732
00:59:12.280 --> 00:59:15.880
we already know that they weren't.
But that's not the case that it was

733
00:59:16.039 --> 00:59:20.239
just, you know, well just
let it all happen. It didn't go

734
00:59:20.320 --> 00:59:22.960
down that way, and that assertion
is still being made today. Anyway,

735
00:59:23.320 --> 00:59:28.360
Larry Hancock and Carmel and Savastano were
with me, and we've just basically started

736
00:59:28.400 --> 00:59:32.639
to scratch the surface about some mythologies
here. This may not be an official

737
00:59:32.679 --> 00:59:37.559
Myths episode, but some myths will
be taken down. Anyways, stick around

738
00:59:37.559 --> 01:00:05.400
the O'Kelly effectively be right back,
Ocelly dot com, Wallstreet Window, Dott

739
01:00:07.360 --> 01:00:16.000
Gold Silver, the stock market,
Wall Street Window dot dot. Perhaps you're

740
01:00:16.000 --> 01:00:21.199
invested deeply, perhaps you're not in
deep enough. Maybe you're thinking about getting

741
01:00:21.239 --> 01:00:27.119
started. Wall Street Windows on Condo
don com. Michael Swanson, the brilliant

742
01:00:27.119 --> 01:00:30.960
author of the War State, understood
these trends professionally for many years, and

743
01:00:31.039 --> 01:00:37.519
now he gives you the benefit of
his knowledge. Wall Street streetdo dot Dot

744
01:00:38.880 --> 01:00:44.880
go there, now go there,
Now go there Now. In Denial Secret

745
01:00:44.920 --> 01:00:51.480
Wars with air strikes and Tanks by
Larry Hancock. Secret wars became a staple

746
01:00:51.480 --> 01:00:55.880
of US covert operations that are still
happening today. Larry Hancock's book In Denial

747
01:00:57.039 --> 01:01:00.199
rips the cover off many of them, using new five else it exposes things

748
01:01:00.239 --> 01:01:04.880
about the Bay of Pigs that no
one has ever written about before. It

749
01:01:05.000 --> 01:01:08.039
shows why it really failed and why
the United States did not learn from it.

750
01:01:08.280 --> 01:01:14.199
Secret wars became a staple of US
covert operations that are still happening today.

751
01:01:14.480 --> 01:01:19.440
It also shows why other countries today
are doing secret operations with more success.

752
01:01:19.719 --> 01:01:22.920
This is the book that puts what
some want to deny into the light.

753
01:01:23.320 --> 01:01:30.079
In Denial, Secret Wars with air
strikes and Tanks Larry Hancock. For

754
01:01:30.199 --> 01:01:34.760
more information, go to Larry hyphen
Handcock dot com. Pick up your copy

755
01:01:34.800 --> 01:01:39.320
of In Denial at Amazon dot com
In digital or physical force. Barmind Savastano

756
01:01:39.599 --> 01:01:45.119
Human time Bomb, The violence within
our nature, poses significant questions and considers

757
01:01:45.119 --> 01:01:52.360
the evidence that violence shapes the past
and present. Author and professor David Tbiato

758
01:01:52.679 --> 01:01:58.519
calls it an impressive tour deforce.
Savastano shows a mastery of relevant work in

759
01:01:58.559 --> 01:02:04.480
biology, anthropology, and intelligence.
Each chapter will challenge readers to rethink old

760
01:02:04.519 --> 01:02:09.119
assumptions. Doctor of Psychology are Blackstock
notes it is a long, hard look

761
01:02:09.119 --> 01:02:15.760
into the potency of our collective shadow
that is extremely relevant in today's socio political

762
01:02:15.880 --> 01:02:21.519
climate. Historian and author Larry Hancock
declares this work is a slap on the

763
01:02:21.519 --> 01:02:24.679
back of the head, a wake
up call, and a serious reality check

764
01:02:24.760 --> 01:02:30.480
as to the true human condition.
Order your digital and print copies now on

765
01:02:30.599 --> 01:02:36.360
Amazon dot com. For more information, visit tpaak dot com. June Fan

766
01:02:36.440 --> 01:02:39.679
of the calls in to the Ocelli
Affair. I just wanted to call in

767
01:02:39.760 --> 01:02:45.199
and tell you and Michael Swanson and
JP Fapilion all of Baguett that you have

768
01:02:45.320 --> 01:02:49.079
how much I love your show.
Always interesting, is always informative. I

769
01:02:49.159 --> 01:02:52.599
just wanted to tell you in person
on the phone, I mean I love

770
01:02:52.639 --> 01:02:55.480
you. I love your show I
love everything you do. I will always

771
01:02:55.559 --> 01:02:59.480
be there to support you. You
know that we appreciate you so much.

772
01:02:59.800 --> 01:03:02.559
You have no idea thanks. Most
of our fans just hate mail and death

773
01:03:02.559 --> 01:03:44.440
threats. This is changing, seems
less more frequently say we are now known

774
01:03:44.920 --> 01:04:16.239
soroun that fascot listen and not gnaw
real So the past choose as the sun

775
01:04:16.559 --> 01:04:29.119
says, song, not the day, as two said, well, so

776
01:04:30.239 --> 01:06:29.079
besmust not w never say never do
now you'll have tsar choose as that song

777
01:06:29.440 --> 01:06:41.239
says, song, not a day
all rest said? When well, don

778
01:06:43.119 --> 01:07:09.199
that supposed to be nothing? Way, go ahead, call it the truth

779
01:07:09.239 --> 01:07:11.880
about the JFA assassination. Right,
well, what do you want to know?

780
01:07:12.000 --> 01:07:15.920
Toddy Baker's wild claim Oswald girlfriends he
knew? Ruby and Barrie answer weapons.

781
01:07:15.960 --> 01:07:18.679
Really, I imagine I could claim
I have four wheels. It doesn't

782
01:07:18.679 --> 01:07:23.360
make me a wagon. But okay, Oswald on the building and trying to

783
01:07:23.400 --> 01:07:26.599
prevent the murder of John Kennedy,
Come on now has a real effort on

784
01:07:26.679 --> 01:07:30.320
the Dafay assassination. Book into her
claim. Go to Amazon dot com enter

785
01:07:30.480 --> 01:07:34.880
Judith Baker in her own words.
You'll get the results for a digital copy

786
01:07:35.000 --> 01:07:40.559
of a book. Where Walt Brown
utilizes her own words and the known evidence

787
01:07:40.599 --> 01:07:45.360
in the case to get at well
a different perspective. Let's say you can

788
01:07:45.400 --> 01:07:49.039
get Judith Barry Baker in her own
words from the author himself, signed if

789
01:07:49.079 --> 01:07:55.559
you request it by contacting doctor Brown
at k I A s JFK at aol

790
01:07:55.800 --> 01:08:00.800
dot com. It's a fun book
and it actually dissects the many men fantastic

791
01:08:00.920 --> 01:08:09.639
claims. Juda's very Baker in her
own words, Thank you information we should

792
01:08:09.719 --> 01:08:15.640
learn from craft. We can get
bring my brother where I'm coming from the

793
01:08:17.079 --> 01:08:35.600
best activated grade check the second hour
of the Ocelli effect continues now here at

794
01:08:35.640 --> 01:08:39.399
Ocelli dot com. Course, like
I say all the time, you could

795
01:08:39.439 --> 01:08:42.640
be hearing us elsewhere, and we
appreciate you no matter where you are when

796
01:08:42.680 --> 01:08:46.439
you are anyway with me Tonight is
Carlin Savastano. Te pok T P A

797
01:08:46.640 --> 01:08:53.039
a k dot com is his website, and you can go and investigate Human

798
01:08:53.279 --> 01:08:58.079
time Bomb The Violence Within Our Nature, which is the latest work from Carmine

799
01:08:58.119 --> 01:09:01.199
to be released. Uh, there's
probably more work in the works if you

800
01:09:01.279 --> 01:09:05.640
don't mind. But two princes and
a King, for which the website is

801
01:09:05.720 --> 01:09:12.359
named after, tacoctpaak dot com is
a concise review of three assassinations from the

802
01:09:12.479 --> 01:09:17.000
nineteen sixties. But anyway, we're
having a discussion about the mythology about one

803
01:09:17.039 --> 01:09:24.039
of those assassinations tonight and Larryhancock is
with us again. Many many books.

804
01:09:24.640 --> 01:09:30.279
Surprise Attack Let's see in Denial is
the latest, but whole world of stuff

805
01:09:30.399 --> 01:09:35.760
over there at Larryhypenhancock dot com,
including Creating Chaos, which I argue he

806
01:09:35.880 --> 01:09:41.039
released a little too early, but
anyway, it is what it is.

807
01:09:41.319 --> 01:09:44.600
Lots of work from Larry and an
upcoming piece is going to be published at

808
01:09:44.600 --> 01:09:49.279
the Mary Farrell website and can't wait
to see that. But anything that you

809
01:09:49.399 --> 01:09:53.560
can find out about Larry's work,
his thoughts, his blog, whatever,

810
01:09:54.079 --> 01:09:59.600
Larry Hyphenhancock dot com is where you
go, and there will be links in

811
01:09:59.720 --> 01:10:04.960
the own notes. We are discussing
the more more or less, although we've

812
01:10:05.039 --> 01:10:10.239
kind of gone off road a few
times here. Uh, official mythologies and

813
01:10:10.680 --> 01:10:15.319
the things that people parrot based on
the official mythologies we already covered in the

814
01:10:15.359 --> 01:10:18.560
first hour. Lee Harvey Oswald would
have never been considered to be used by

815
01:10:18.920 --> 01:10:27.760
intelligence agencies. Yeah, first of
all, false doesn't mean that you know,

816
01:10:28.000 --> 01:10:31.079
Alan Dulles wanted to use him,
uh, But it does mean that

817
01:10:31.279 --> 01:10:35.039
there were people that considered it seriously. There were people monitoring him from all

818
01:10:35.239 --> 01:10:40.960
sorts of agencies. And I point
out again that one of the least cooperative

819
01:10:40.960 --> 01:10:45.319
agencies out there when it comes to
Kennedy assassination records we well know is the

820
01:10:45.800 --> 01:10:51.760
NSA, who knows what's in their
files necessarily that you know, I don't

821
01:10:51.760 --> 01:10:56.640
even know what the solution is at
getting at those uh at this point in

822
01:10:56.760 --> 01:10:59.520
time. But we also had difficulty
with the O, N, I and

823
01:11:00.279 --> 01:11:04.199
G. The CIA did have stuff
in their files about Lee Harvey Oswold previous

824
01:11:04.760 --> 01:11:10.800
to his engagement as the alleged assassin, would pay no attention to that,

825
01:11:12.119 --> 01:11:15.560
or the CIA officers that worked you
know, with him or around him,

826
01:11:15.760 --> 01:11:20.199
or were somehow placed in his proximity
continuously throughout his very short life. Yes,

827
01:11:20.279 --> 01:11:24.199
Karl, and then that's what I
wanted to add, just to belabor

828
01:11:24.239 --> 01:11:27.600
the point that you I and Larry
made I think credit succinctly the last time.

829
01:11:27.720 --> 01:11:29.960
But just there are a couple other
names, you know, when people

830
01:11:30.000 --> 01:11:34.399
want to consider if to believe that
he was not on their radar, as

831
01:11:34.600 --> 01:11:41.239
so many people still say, you
have to believe that a seventeen year old

832
01:11:41.680 --> 01:11:45.800
was able to get into Russia by
means of the most convenient spot known to

833
01:11:45.920 --> 01:11:49.279
intelligence. He had to go through
there to get into Russia. Somehow with

834
01:11:49.399 --> 01:11:54.720
that knowledge, he has that knowledge. Somehow he gets into Russia, and

835
01:11:54.920 --> 01:11:59.159
he just so happens. The first
place he goes after settling in his best

836
01:11:59.199 --> 01:12:03.439
he can in the hotel well or
before hotel I'm sorry, is to the

837
01:12:03.520 --> 01:12:09.399
embassy, where he declares that he
is going to give secrets to the communists

838
01:12:09.439 --> 01:12:13.399
and rounds as his citizenship. The
person he says that to is a former

839
01:12:13.520 --> 01:12:19.279
CIA employee. He is then the
former the other CIA employee he who McVicar,

840
01:12:19.560 --> 01:12:26.439
who informs reporters about him and tells
Priscilla Johnson McMillan to have a meeting

841
01:12:26.560 --> 01:12:30.279
with him, which she does and
is later used as the basis to impune

842
01:12:30.399 --> 01:12:34.000
him. He is then told to
other reporters like Aileen Moseby and others that

843
01:12:34.039 --> 01:12:39.680
he's around if they want to go
interview him, so he cannot be not

844
01:12:39.880 --> 01:12:43.840
known to at least that cadre of
CIA people who reported it. Yeah,

845
01:12:44.079 --> 01:12:50.000
former CIA, you said, though, that's why weller or consultant or informant

846
01:12:50.279 --> 01:12:55.479
or But the point is connection established
in the documents. Yep. So it's

847
01:12:55.560 --> 01:13:00.479
not just a coincidence that he gets
handed around by people with connections to intelligence

848
01:13:00.520 --> 01:13:04.079
groups almost everywhere he goes, right, and as Larry stated, when he

849
01:13:04.119 --> 01:13:08.159
comes back to the US, he's
dealing with you know, the anti Castro

850
01:13:08.319 --> 01:13:12.920
Cubans and all these Yeah, it's
funny. Ruth Payne's sister, Sylvia Hyde

851
01:13:12.960 --> 01:13:15.960
Hoki, who worked for the CIA
and asked Ruth Payne about the Oswalts that's

852
01:13:16.000 --> 01:13:24.319
in files too. Oh yeah,
is that another coincidence? Coincidences must we

853
01:13:24.479 --> 01:13:29.359
accept until hey, maybe they knew, maybe they had some idea about the

854
01:13:29.439 --> 01:13:33.439
guy. Yeah, some inkling to
who this man might have been. Mm.

855
01:13:34.439 --> 01:13:38.680
Probably couldn't even fit all those people
in a good sized room during the

856
01:13:38.760 --> 01:13:42.159
age of coronavirus, to be honest
with you, with social distancing in place.

857
01:13:42.279 --> 01:13:46.600
So yeah, there's a lot of
them. Yeah, connections knew about

858
01:13:46.640 --> 01:13:49.840
him. And then there's you're gonna
need to pick a room. You're gonna

859
01:13:49.840 --> 01:13:55.039
need a ballroom probably by the end, yeah, exactly. So yeah,

860
01:13:55.159 --> 01:13:59.239
but but still people will say,
well, there's absolutely no proof that there

861
01:13:59.359 --> 01:14:02.399
was any action. Now, look
to say that he was, you know,

862
01:14:02.680 --> 01:14:08.319
James Bond type character CI agent himself. Uh, you also don't approve

863
01:14:08.359 --> 01:14:11.000
for that. Yes, no,
no, no, there's yeah, it's

864
01:14:11.279 --> 01:14:13.560
he could have been unwitting. That's
another thing I think a lot of people

865
01:14:13.600 --> 01:14:18.319
overlook. Oswald was a young,
dumb kid, Okay, right, He

866
01:14:18.479 --> 01:14:23.720
wasn't a genius, he wasn't a
mastermind. He didn't have any sort of

867
01:14:23.800 --> 01:14:28.760
experience in life. He could have
been easily manipulated. Yeah. I always

868
01:14:28.800 --> 01:14:30.840
find that. Let me close that, let me close that out. And

869
01:14:30.920 --> 01:14:34.039
of course this is anecdotal, but
I think it really kind of closes it

870
01:14:34.159 --> 01:14:40.439
out. One of Joe and Edes
was not his only case officer for the

871
01:14:40.560 --> 01:14:45.960
DRE. Another case officer for the
DRI working actually in New Orleans during the

872
01:14:45.039 --> 01:14:51.279
same time that Lee Oswall was there, and later years was asked by like

873
01:14:51.439 --> 01:14:58.800
his daughter about Lee Oswald and he
he really said, I can't talk to

874
01:14:58.880 --> 01:15:02.720
you about it. But Leoso was
a useful idiot. And I think that

875
01:15:03.479 --> 01:15:10.760
captures exactly what he would have represented
to the intelligence agency. Yeah. And

876
01:15:10.840 --> 01:15:14.560
I think it's the universality of that
phrase that needs to be considered as well,

877
01:15:14.600 --> 01:15:17.439
too, because useful idiot is what
all the agencies called people that were

878
01:15:17.520 --> 01:15:21.399
useful to them. Yep, and
mark the Yeah, the Soviet Marxists used

879
01:15:21.479 --> 01:15:27.600
useful idiots. That's what the Western
Communists were to them. They were intelligence.

880
01:15:28.520 --> 01:15:32.520
That's in the internal dictionary. Okay, useful idiot is okay, yep.

881
01:15:32.960 --> 01:15:35.319
We all know what they are,
right, yeah, and we all

882
01:15:35.439 --> 01:15:41.439
use them. And younger people are
easy to manipulate, well, especially when

883
01:15:42.520 --> 01:15:46.119
especially when based on just about you
know, I don't know at least a

884
01:15:46.319 --> 01:15:53.960
dozen anecdotal accounts about the guy state
that he thought he was a bit more

885
01:15:54.119 --> 01:15:59.439
clever than he really was, I
mean, in other words, and obviously

886
01:16:00.119 --> 01:16:05.720
useful idiot and a loyal one apparently, and a loyal one. That's the

887
01:16:05.760 --> 01:16:11.479
other thing so interesting that I wonder
would that be the right guy to try

888
01:16:11.520 --> 01:16:15.159
and manipulate? Or do you want
the most intelligent, critical thinker possible who

889
01:16:15.279 --> 01:16:20.640
might be questioning things at every turn
and might not think that they just simply

890
01:16:20.760 --> 01:16:24.720
know how all things work and they
are well informed when they are not.

891
01:16:25.359 --> 01:16:30.199
Which one would you prefer as his? As his views of Marxism would show

892
01:16:30.279 --> 01:16:34.359
us there, but they're not right, you know what? What is the

893
01:16:34.399 --> 01:16:42.039
difference between Marxism and uh you know, Marxist Lenistists and communism exactly. Well,

894
01:16:42.319 --> 01:16:45.560
you know there's this many cars here
in Cuba and there's a yeah,

895
01:16:45.600 --> 01:16:50.319
okay, anyway, what else do
we have car mine? Because okay,

896
01:16:50.399 --> 01:16:57.520
so now let's perhaps jump onto uh
oh. And as far as as you

897
01:16:57.600 --> 01:17:00.239
both said, yeah, we always
have to introduce new evidence. You said

898
01:17:00.239 --> 01:17:02.199
that earlier in the New Ark.
We always must introduce it, no matter

899
01:17:02.520 --> 01:17:05.239
if we like it or not,
it must be introduced if we're going to

900
01:17:05.319 --> 01:17:10.039
come to a reasonable conclusion. If
you leave out any evidence, you're not

901
01:17:10.119 --> 01:17:15.680
going to get the right answer.
It's just that simple. So now what

902
01:17:15.880 --> 01:17:18.079
you actually brought up to me that
you got a message about the George W.

903
01:17:18.239 --> 01:17:25.600
Bush thing again, Yeah, yes, I did Daily Plaza. Oh,

904
01:17:26.359 --> 01:17:29.880
the hundreds of people that have been
seen in Daily Plaza that weren't there

905
01:17:30.119 --> 01:17:34.720
is amazing. Gotta say that's that's
one of those things. And before you

906
01:17:34.840 --> 01:17:38.760
go any further, I'd like to
actually turn it over to Larry for a

907
01:17:38.880 --> 01:17:44.600
second, because I'd love to know
what Larry's favorite phantoms of the plaza are,

908
01:17:45.239 --> 01:17:50.479
because you know, over the years, everybody from E. Howard Hunt

909
01:17:50.560 --> 01:17:56.880
to George W. Bush, not
just HW but W Bush have allegedly been

910
01:17:56.920 --> 01:18:00.119
cited. I'm not I'm not making
it up about that one, Okay,

911
01:18:00.720 --> 01:18:03.680
I've been cited in Dealey Plaza.
I was wondering, Larry, what are

912
01:18:03.800 --> 01:18:10.680
some of your favorites that have been
allegedly cited in Dealey Plaza that we we

913
01:18:10.880 --> 01:18:15.479
now know we're a figment of somebody's
blurry imagination while looking at a photo,

914
01:18:15.319 --> 01:18:20.960
what are your thoughts if I if
I want to annoy the maximum number of

915
01:18:21.039 --> 01:18:25.640
people, I would probably say right
at the top of my list is Lansdale.

916
01:18:27.359 --> 01:18:30.119
You know, you face, you
can't really see his profile, you

917
01:18:30.199 --> 01:18:35.039
can only see his back and one
suspicious hand with a ring on it,

918
01:18:35.159 --> 01:18:41.279
right, yeah, uh so that's
I mean, that's got to be right

919
01:18:41.399 --> 01:18:45.520
up there, because you can't even
like do a facial mash. You're doing

920
01:18:45.680 --> 01:18:50.960
like a hand recognition thing. V
Larry was such a good movie. It

921
01:18:51.279 --> 01:18:57.319
was I know, I know,
and then you another one of my favorites,

922
01:18:57.399 --> 01:19:00.399
and I have to admit, okay, I've been doing this for thirty

923
01:19:00.479 --> 01:19:03.600
years. I was so excited I
bought a book. I'm not even to

924
01:19:03.720 --> 01:19:08.479
name of the book now. That
was was all about the Three Tramps and

925
01:19:08.600 --> 01:19:12.880
who the three Tramps really were,
and somebody spent a ton of money on

926
01:19:13.000 --> 01:19:16.039
that book. You had glossy photos
and oh, I know the book,

927
01:19:16.319 --> 01:19:21.159
the overlays and all that stuff.
I mean, it was actually a good

928
01:19:21.199 --> 01:19:30.079
production. And so and I was
like, I've gone through so many falsely

929
01:19:30.239 --> 01:19:33.560
for years, but here's here's what
blew me away. So that that was

930
01:19:33.680 --> 01:19:36.840
someone of my my favorites that I
really wanted to get behind, you know.

931
01:19:36.960 --> 01:19:41.560
Okay, it's like, okay,
that's that's really good. And then

932
01:19:42.359 --> 01:19:46.279
what blew me away on that one
was okay, so the proposition is that

933
01:19:46.760 --> 01:19:51.279
Frank Sturge's was one of the tramps, okay, because he really look a

934
01:19:51.319 --> 01:19:56.159
lot like this guy in some photos. Well, then I then I went

935
01:19:56.319 --> 01:20:02.680
and I found a photo and I
on a photo of Sturgis and Pedro DIA's

936
01:20:02.760 --> 01:20:06.840
Lance and Diaz Lance's brother. And
for those of knew you that are not

937
01:20:08.000 --> 01:20:13.640
into all this, Dias Lance was
a Cuban Air Force commander who defected very

938
01:20:13.760 --> 01:20:17.199
close to Sturgis. In the early
days after Sturgis came out, they flew

939
01:20:17.359 --> 01:20:23.560
joint missions against the cast Or regime
really really tight for a while, and

940
01:20:23.720 --> 01:20:28.319
I went, oh, my god, this Pedro Diaz Lance looks more like

941
01:20:28.720 --> 01:20:31.039
the Tramp than Sturgis does. And
I was convinced it with Sturgis, but

942
01:20:31.600 --> 01:20:34.239
he looks more like And then I
looked over and I went, oh,

943
01:20:34.399 --> 01:20:39.239
geez, and his brother looks even
more like the Tramp. So here I've

944
01:20:39.279 --> 01:20:45.199
got three picture of three guys that
increasingly look more and more like the Tramp,

945
01:20:45.439 --> 01:20:49.399
and I begin to wonder, Okay, this is a random three people

946
01:20:49.479 --> 01:20:57.560
in a picture. How many hundreds
of people? You know? So so

947
01:20:57.960 --> 01:21:02.560
that that really was my favorite for
a while and got blown away at this

948
01:21:02.800 --> 01:21:06.960
point in time. And you know, there was an article that you know,

949
01:21:08.560 --> 01:21:13.960
I think he had a photo analysis
of twelve different people, all suspects

950
01:21:14.800 --> 01:21:18.800
that would be in daily Plaza,
and found, you know, reasonably good

951
01:21:19.000 --> 01:21:25.880
matches, including Richard Bissell, who
I'd love to have in Dally Plaza.

952
01:21:26.159 --> 01:21:30.279
I mean that you read my book
in Denial and you will find why Bistle

953
01:21:30.319 --> 01:21:35.279
would have wanted to be in Deely
Plaza desperately. Not that I think it

954
01:21:35.439 --> 01:21:42.159
was him, but so those are
those there's just no proof that he was

955
01:21:42.319 --> 01:21:45.279
at this point in time. My
position is, if I can come up

956
01:21:45.439 --> 01:21:54.159
with actual documentary evidence that a person
was in Dallas that day and find a

957
01:21:54.319 --> 01:22:00.560
picture of someone in Deally Plaza who
looks a lot like him, I'm willing

958
01:22:00.680 --> 01:22:04.640
to consider that. Other than that, No, No, it's just it's

959
01:22:04.680 --> 01:22:10.119
gonna to be the cut. And
what I would add is that we have

960
01:22:10.279 --> 01:22:14.560
to have some ground rules. It's
fine, as you know, as where

961
01:22:14.640 --> 01:22:16.840
Larry is nicer and more forgiving of
such things. I do not accept any

962
01:22:16.880 --> 01:22:20.000
of it unless it's a clear photo. None of it. Oh yeah,

963
01:22:20.399 --> 01:22:25.720
yeah, Because even if you use
the most modern technology I think one of

964
01:22:25.720 --> 01:22:29.399
them is called chiros, it's just
one of the tech systems to do facial

965
01:22:29.439 --> 01:22:32.760
recognition, you need a clear picture
to even get a solid seventy five percent

966
01:22:32.920 --> 01:22:36.279
match. And if you can't get
that sort of a match, you can't

967
01:22:36.319 --> 01:22:41.000
prove it in court. So I
mean, we can look at photos to

968
01:22:41.039 --> 01:22:44.520
the end of time. It's like
the doorway man photo. People can say

969
01:22:44.560 --> 01:22:46.399
that's Oswald until the end of time, or somebody else on the stairs is

970
01:22:46.439 --> 01:22:50.159
Oswald. But unless you can get
a bunch of witnesses that confirm that with

971
01:22:50.319 --> 01:22:55.920
a clear picture, you have nothing. You are just wasting everyone's time.

972
01:22:58.680 --> 01:23:03.600
So have at it. Just to
be perfectly transparent. Okay, you asked

973
01:23:03.640 --> 01:23:06.880
the question, Chuck. So at
this point in time, I do have

974
01:23:08.039 --> 01:23:15.119
one person who is a favorite,
because, as Carmine just said, you

975
01:23:15.159 --> 01:23:18.960
know, we have a frontal shot. It's a fairly clear photos. Matter

976
01:23:18.960 --> 01:23:23.960
of fact, we have frontal and
side angles, and this is the dark

977
01:23:24.039 --> 01:23:30.760
collected complexion man on ELM Street.
And I do have I speculate that that

978
01:23:31.119 --> 01:23:36.920
was Philip Avid Doll Santiago because I
can prove he was in Dallas that day.

979
01:23:38.359 --> 01:23:45.199
FBI documents prove that, because he
looks like him, and because interestingly

980
01:23:45.359 --> 01:23:50.560
enough, I also have photos of
him wearing exactly the same type of beret

981
01:23:51.239 --> 01:23:56.399
in the same manner as he shows
in that photo. Now, having said

982
01:23:56.479 --> 01:24:01.079
all that, that's still speculative,
but that would that would be the only

983
01:24:01.199 --> 01:24:04.760
one so far that I'm even willing
to offer up with, you know,

984
01:24:04.840 --> 01:24:10.479
like a touch of sanity. Yeah, and that I think is reasonable.

985
01:24:10.600 --> 01:24:13.279
I mean, if you've got some
evidence, which you do get evidence for

986
01:24:13.319 --> 01:24:16.079
the things that you claim, that's
I am totally willing to entertain such things.

987
01:24:16.119 --> 01:24:21.079
I just think that it's ridiculous that
people are coming into groups and misinforming

988
01:24:21.159 --> 01:24:27.039
other people that they have the definitive
answer when they have blurry pictures that they've

989
01:24:27.079 --> 01:24:34.239
convinced themselves look like something. And
I know why Larry's laughing, because every

990
01:24:34.359 --> 01:24:41.800
so often, almost anybody who's ever
discussed this on more than one occasion in

991
01:24:41.880 --> 01:24:49.680
public will get inundated with photographs.
And the photographs are really hilarious. I

992
01:24:49.800 --> 01:24:55.479
I would love to see a composite
poster of this stuff one day, just

993
01:24:56.239 --> 01:24:59.600
just as a piece of art.
When they are well, that's the thing.

994
01:24:59.720 --> 01:25:01.479
It's like, Look I dumped a
whole bunch of yellow into the black

995
01:25:01.520 --> 01:25:04.520
and white photo with photoshop, and
now it looks like And I'm like,

996
01:25:06.680 --> 01:25:11.640
you know what I'm talking about,
don't you, Larry? Uh yeah,

997
01:25:11.880 --> 01:25:18.159
yeah, that's some Jackson. Now, once you get into that subject,

998
01:25:18.800 --> 01:25:25.600
everybody, I mean everybody wants to
play with photoshop. Everybody wants to play.

999
01:25:26.039 --> 01:25:28.880
And not that there aren't some people
that are good at it, but

1000
01:25:30.199 --> 01:25:34.239
you know, well, it disrupts
the chain get lost in it forever.

1001
01:25:34.960 --> 01:25:39.720
Yeah, I would just add it
disrupts the chain of evidence because as soon

1002
01:25:39.760 --> 01:25:45.119
as you manipulate something, it's no
longer credible. You've changed it. You

1003
01:25:45.239 --> 01:25:49.680
need the original, The original evidence
is what's going to prove what you want,

1004
01:25:49.800 --> 01:25:53.760
you can't say. Well, after
I've done all of these adjustments and

1005
01:25:53.800 --> 01:25:56.439
all of these photos, and now
that I've changed the blurs to look more

1006
01:25:56.520 --> 01:25:59.039
like I want them to, this
is what I think it looks. It

1007
01:25:59.119 --> 01:26:03.880
doesn't make any sense the paint.
That's the hilarious thing. Like about Oswald

1008
01:26:03.960 --> 01:26:08.560
in the doorway, right, I'm
not gonna get into this at length,

1009
01:26:08.640 --> 01:26:12.439
but I want to address it really
quickly. The funniest part of that to

1010
01:26:12.560 --> 01:26:17.399
me is do people know what the
original photograph looked like and what the size

1011
01:26:17.640 --> 01:26:25.399
was, because the blow up of
this little tiny portion of the photograph by

1012
01:26:26.119 --> 01:26:30.880
it's just by the fact that you've
blown it up, is now ridiculous.

1013
01:26:30.800 --> 01:26:35.039
I mean, it's not even Yeah, they've lost so much clarity just to

1014
01:26:35.119 --> 01:26:38.880
get to what they want to say. The blur looks like yeah, I

1015
01:26:38.920 --> 01:26:43.119
mean. And that's the funny thing
is take a postage stamp basically and turn

1016
01:26:43.199 --> 01:26:47.279
it into a poster. Okay,
that's what they've done, relatively speaking,

1017
01:26:48.239 --> 01:26:53.960
And I understand when people did this
in the seventies. I really do,

1018
01:26:54.560 --> 01:26:59.600
Like Chuck, I just want to
I have to note the universal irony of

1019
01:26:59.720 --> 01:27:02.039
the partly blind guy having to lecture
people about looking at pictures too much.

1020
01:27:02.079 --> 01:27:05.119
Go ahead, Yeah, I know, it's great, isn't it. That's

1021
01:27:05.159 --> 01:27:09.000
the thing, though, is that
I've actually gone through the process of blowing

1022
01:27:09.079 --> 01:27:14.159
things up properly in order so that
I had better access to them. Okay,

1023
01:27:14.439 --> 01:27:19.520
I mean hundreds and thousands of times
magnification in some cases, in order

1024
01:27:19.600 --> 01:27:21.760
to examine some of this stuff.
And at the end of the day,

1025
01:27:23.640 --> 01:27:30.279
you've lost detail. I mean,
it's just it's no longer there examining the

1026
01:27:30.359 --> 01:27:33.880
original thing is this little tiny air. And that's the funniest part of it

1027
01:27:33.960 --> 01:27:38.720
all is that they take up a
piece of a wall and here's a shadow

1028
01:27:38.800 --> 01:27:42.680
and it looks like somebody standing there, And it's just all day long with

1029
01:27:42.800 --> 01:27:46.039
this stuff. So I don't know
what's worse. We've found somebody in Dealey

1030
01:27:46.119 --> 01:27:51.119
Plaza ranging from this person, this
person, that person, regardless of where

1031
01:27:51.159 --> 01:27:58.640
we think they actually were at the
time, versus here's a blur and now

1032
01:27:58.840 --> 01:28:01.319
I think it looks like a person
that might be holding a gun. Well,

1033
01:28:01.880 --> 01:28:04.800
yeah, And it's just going to
assure that in the future, if

1034
01:28:04.840 --> 01:28:09.319
someone is committed enough, they're going
to find the evidence. And you're gonna

1035
01:28:09.359 --> 01:28:15.600
look foolish because that's happened multiple times
on the show where I and Larry and

1036
01:28:15.720 --> 01:28:19.880
Chuck and a lot of other people, you know, Bill simpicch and you

1037
01:28:19.960 --> 01:28:25.479
know and Stu Wexler and all sorts
of researchers and people actually go and find

1038
01:28:25.520 --> 01:28:29.439
the evidence have shown that those people
were not where a lot of people are

1039
01:28:29.479 --> 01:28:31.840
claiming they were. Like Miltierre,
we took him apart on the show where

1040
01:28:31.840 --> 01:28:36.239
we showed he was in quipment Georgia. He was at home. They confirmed

1041
01:28:36.359 --> 01:28:41.199
visually that he was there. Yeah, so there is no way he was

1042
01:28:41.279 --> 01:28:45.239
in Deally Plaza. He was traveling
around the country. He wasn't in Texas.

1043
01:28:45.600 --> 01:28:48.680
Right, And look, my last
little comment, and that is a

1044
01:28:48.720 --> 01:28:53.239
perfect example of something that went on
for years and years, and still,

1045
01:28:53.600 --> 01:28:58.600
by the way, is going on. I'll give you one final example about

1046
01:28:58.600 --> 01:29:02.680
this photographic nonsense. And and you
know we we did steer away from the

1047
01:29:02.720 --> 01:29:06.000
official step and we're gonna go back
to it. Hold on. But one

1048
01:29:06.119 --> 01:29:15.279
last comment needs to be made,
and that is about the badgeman because up,

1049
01:29:15.560 --> 01:29:17.680
well, but that's the thing about
it is that I understood when the

1050
01:29:17.760 --> 01:29:23.880
technology was not there for this,
and I understood that at a glance and

1051
01:29:24.000 --> 01:29:29.319
looking at it, it appears this
way. The problem is to literally have

1052
01:29:29.760 --> 01:29:33.920
that figure where it is and to
do the measurements to put it at the

1053
01:29:34.039 --> 01:29:40.119
size it should be. I mean, unless somebody saw a step ladder behind

1054
01:29:40.159 --> 01:29:44.199
the fence, I don't understand how
you have it. I mean, you're

1055
01:29:44.199 --> 01:29:45.640
gonna tell me that he's standing on
the bumper of a car. Maybe,

1056
01:29:46.720 --> 01:29:54.159
uh, even though you have a
really awkward position here that nobody else saw.

1057
01:29:55.920 --> 01:29:59.720
Yeah, you know, people,
I think people should apply the I

1058
01:29:59.760 --> 01:30:04.359
think the term for it is Hitchens
razor after Christopher Hitchens. Basically, if

1059
01:30:04.399 --> 01:30:09.680
there is no evidence for the suggestion, there's no real you don't need any

1060
01:30:09.800 --> 01:30:14.119
to disprove it. It didn't happen, or Ockham's razor. The simplest answer

1061
01:30:14.239 --> 01:30:16.479
is likely the most. So if
there's a step ladder, it probably didn't

1062
01:30:16.479 --> 01:30:21.520
happen. If these crazy things are
required, it didn't happen. There you

1063
01:30:21.640 --> 01:30:25.960
have it. But anyway, and
look, I don't want to get into

1064
01:30:26.000 --> 01:30:30.560
any other strangeness because there are witnesses
that made claims about things and bla blah

1065
01:30:30.560 --> 01:30:36.760
blah blah. But at the same
time, there is not a foundation of

1066
01:30:36.960 --> 01:30:44.479
evidence coalescing around a whole lot of
assertions. And here's the funniest part about

1067
01:30:44.520 --> 01:30:48.039
you know, say, like Badgeman
even firing from there. And I don't

1068
01:30:48.039 --> 01:30:53.159
even discount the idea that somebody could
have fired from the grassy knoll behind the

1069
01:30:53.239 --> 01:30:58.399
fence. I'm not discounting that because
there is some evidence actually that maybe there

1070
01:30:58.479 --> 01:31:01.039
was a shot fired from there,
and it comes from more than one place.

1071
01:31:01.279 --> 01:31:09.239
But but we don't actually have evidence
of it hitting Kennedy. Yeah,

1072
01:31:09.840 --> 01:31:14.760
and there is a problem there,
So is it relevant? Possibly? Is

1073
01:31:14.840 --> 01:31:18.720
it all true. It's a little
shaky, But I'm so sick of people

1074
01:31:18.800 --> 01:31:24.039
still bringing up Badgeman to me.
Well, and I think that it goes

1075
01:31:24.119 --> 01:31:27.720
back to any of these famous figures
that people and feel free to jump in,

1076
01:31:27.840 --> 01:31:29.760
Larry, I don't want to.
I know we both will go forever

1077
01:31:30.880 --> 01:31:38.399
on the subject. But I think
that the the problem is is that you

1078
01:31:38.520 --> 01:31:41.760
have to get into the mind of
the person that you are trying to pin

1079
01:31:41.880 --> 01:31:45.000
this on. So as in the
case of George h or as in the

1080
01:31:45.039 --> 01:31:48.079
case of George H. W.
Bush, do you think that they are

1081
01:31:48.239 --> 01:31:54.920
so foolish that they would go to
the crime scene? Is that what you

1082
01:31:55.079 --> 01:32:00.680
think you think they're a mastermind,
but they'll allow themselves to be in a

1083
01:32:00.720 --> 01:32:08.680
photographed Yeah. And the other thing
to compliment that, and and I've had

1084
01:32:08.720 --> 01:32:15.039
this discussion with the main proponent is
what good what role would it play,

1085
01:32:15.239 --> 01:32:24.119
what purpose in the context of a
shooting conspiracy? What value would there be

1086
01:32:24.279 --> 01:32:30.880
to have that person there? You
know, just risk everything everything, And

1087
01:32:30.199 --> 01:32:33.399
it's it gets back to here.
Here's a myth that if you want to

1088
01:32:33.800 --> 01:32:40.840
a myth that we're dealing with from
decades ago, was this was an event

1089
01:32:41.039 --> 01:32:46.359
of such a scale that everyone that
was involved in it, from different agencies,

1090
01:32:46.439 --> 01:32:53.520
different parts of government, senior government
officials wanted to be in Dallas to

1091
01:32:53.640 --> 01:33:00.520
see John Kennedy killed. They hated
him that much that I mean, you

1092
01:33:00.680 --> 01:33:08.119
both the big event, So dozens
of people went to Dallas just to watch

1093
01:33:08.159 --> 01:33:12.600
it in person. And I would
have to make the counter argument it may

1094
01:33:12.680 --> 01:33:15.600
be in some occasions, you know, with with pyromane acts, that they

1095
01:33:15.680 --> 01:33:21.159
do watch their crime in person.
Uh, there are crimes where someone hates

1096
01:33:21.439 --> 01:33:28.439
someone enough that for personal reasons they
would do. I don't think you could

1097
01:33:28.520 --> 01:33:33.880
make that case for Bush. And
I can absolutely make the case that none

1098
01:33:34.000 --> 01:33:42.840
of a an experienced shooting team,
nobody that was willing to go into Dallas

1099
01:33:43.560 --> 01:33:48.479
as part of an orchestrated professional or
experience operational effort. You don't want George

1100
01:33:48.479 --> 01:33:51.239
Bush around, I mean, you
don't need him. You don't want him.

1101
01:33:53.000 --> 01:33:57.279
Why is he there? And they
wouldn't reason, he has no functional

1102
01:33:57.359 --> 01:34:01.760
reason. See, they get confused
because we know certain historical facts like John

1103
01:34:01.840 --> 01:34:06.600
Gotti was not too far away when
Paul Castellana was killed. Okay, so

1104
01:34:08.399 --> 01:34:14.159
that that that's a reality. But
I think the locational get taken as evidence

1105
01:34:14.800 --> 01:34:21.640
is there. But but there you
have it is that there are circumstances though

1106
01:34:21.680 --> 01:34:27.319
that Larry just hinted at, where
it does make sense that someone would want

1107
01:34:27.359 --> 01:34:30.479
to see that the job got done, that someone would want to be there

1108
01:34:30.560 --> 01:34:35.119
as a backup somehow, that someone
would want to make sure that maybe the

1109
01:34:35.239 --> 01:34:41.880
assassin themselves did not escape because they
were personally vested in the situation. I

1110
01:34:42.039 --> 01:34:45.720
get it, But I don't see
how that argument ever works regarding you know,

1111
01:34:45.840 --> 01:34:48.399
George H. W. Bush and
also bringing his son with him.

1112
01:34:49.199 --> 01:34:54.920
You know, that's even more ridiculous, how much more sitbout Let me give

1113
01:34:54.920 --> 01:34:59.680
an example. Okay, on the
conspiracy side, rationally, I could make

1114
01:34:59.680 --> 01:35:02.680
an arm argument and give you a
psych profile and everything else. It said

1115
01:35:02.680 --> 01:35:10.960
that Richard Bissell truly did hate JFK
and make an argument that he would be

1116
01:35:11.079 --> 01:35:15.079
the kind of person that would like
to see him dead. It's a revenge

1117
01:35:15.159 --> 01:35:18.920
thing, Okay. I can make
the argument that if Rip Robertson were running

1118
01:35:19.039 --> 01:35:25.439
a team, that team would want
to know that he was there with them.

1119
01:35:26.000 --> 01:35:29.880
He always been, had been them
on missions into Cuba. It's sort

1120
01:35:29.920 --> 01:35:32.399
of like, I'm going to do
this, but I got to know that

1121
01:35:32.560 --> 01:35:36.800
my guy is there with me.
And at least those are logical arguments,

1122
01:35:38.199 --> 01:35:45.199
either psychological or operational, for someone
being there. George Bush, it doesn't

1123
01:35:45.199 --> 01:35:50.720
apply to Howard Hunt for God's sake, and once again person in the whole

1124
01:35:50.800 --> 01:35:57.119
world, but highly identifiable. Why
do you do you want him there?

1125
01:35:57.640 --> 01:36:00.359
Well, and it goes against the
most basic prints military thinking, which is

1126
01:36:00.399 --> 01:36:03.479
why likely none of the military commanders
were there. If you don't want to

1127
01:36:03.520 --> 01:36:10.920
compromise your operation, you don't use
identifiable people. That's always a good strategy.

1128
01:36:12.920 --> 01:36:15.720
Well, and we might as well
surface another one that's come up lately,

1129
01:36:15.800 --> 01:36:21.520
and it will will make me no
goodwill, but it's the argument that

1130
01:36:23.159 --> 01:36:29.880
that Allen Dulles would make sure that
he was at CIA headquarters that day when

1131
01:36:29.920 --> 01:36:33.560
it was going to happen, when
during the Bay of Pigs, he had

1132
01:36:33.960 --> 01:36:38.520
gone to great effort, not even
to be in the country for the most

1133
01:36:38.600 --> 01:36:42.399
important operations that the CIA had ever
done up to that point in time.

1134
01:36:42.720 --> 01:36:46.760
But he's he's known as having been
fired at Kennedy, not being a fan

1135
01:36:46.880 --> 01:36:51.359
of Kennedy. But rather than staying
home in his garden, he's going to

1136
01:36:51.439 --> 01:36:58.279
go to CIA headquarters that way and
do what what? What? What's he

1137
01:36:58.359 --> 01:37:02.439
going to do at CIA headquarters.
That's kind of like another well, Larry,

1138
01:37:02.479 --> 01:37:12.000
don't you understand that's his alibi.
Larry's champagne. Yeah, Okay,

1139
01:37:12.039 --> 01:37:15.439
we're having an after party, Okay, Yeah, but not at the house.

1140
01:37:15.479 --> 01:37:19.159
We're gonna do it at headquarters.
Okay, so they can implicate us.

1141
01:37:19.960 --> 01:37:24.840
That's just about his operationally stupid you
want another myth? There was a

1142
01:37:25.000 --> 01:37:31.159
History Channel program about this with a
CIA officer, Okay and I Will who

1143
01:37:31.239 --> 01:37:39.359
went to great links trying to prove
that Fidel Castro had a radio link set

1144
01:37:39.479 --> 01:37:47.359
up from Havana to Dallas so that
he conceptually could personally tune in to Dallas

1145
01:37:47.520 --> 01:37:55.039
Police radio, Dallas news channels,
or the f wire. Okay, like

1146
01:37:55.199 --> 01:38:01.520
okay, but somehow he needed to
hear from Dallas Police channel too, like

1147
01:38:01.720 --> 01:38:06.359
coordinate the attack. It's like,
okay, this is Fordle you guys in

1148
01:38:06.479 --> 01:38:13.439
Dallas stop because the police are suspicious. Yeah. Yeah, and you guys

1149
01:38:13.560 --> 01:38:17.159
see program on TV. I mean, I mean it's it's they send out

1150
01:38:17.279 --> 01:38:25.039
votes to intercept signals and it's just
amazing. Well and again it's ridiculous because

1151
01:38:25.079 --> 01:38:28.560
if you look at it, Okay, so what what what that proposes is

1152
01:38:28.760 --> 01:38:32.399
is that a country who was still
trying to get its food system together because

1153
01:38:32.399 --> 01:38:38.760
the revolution was only four years earlier, was doing high tech things. That's

1154
01:38:38.800 --> 01:38:45.359
the proposition. We were redirecting the
Yeah, they just had so much going

1155
01:38:45.399 --> 01:38:50.399
on the Dallas Police channel. And
remember now, which I defy you wait

1156
01:38:50.439 --> 01:38:54.039
a minute, Larry, hold on
a second. I defy anybody to go

1157
01:38:54.199 --> 01:38:58.840
listen to the Dallas Police dicta Belts
and you know, try and even sort

1158
01:38:58.880 --> 01:39:02.399
out what the hell is going on. That is absolutely stupid. No,

1159
01:39:02.720 --> 01:39:05.880
seriously, I mean there's a I
mean, I know a lot of what

1160
01:39:06.079 --> 01:39:12.159
happened second by second indialy Plaza and
still listening to Dallas police radio. I'm

1161
01:39:12.199 --> 01:39:15.680
going, what what is that?
And you mean to tell me in another

1162
01:39:15.840 --> 01:39:24.199
language? Uh, these terrible CB
radio issues. You're going to amplify that

1163
01:39:24.359 --> 01:39:30.359
signal to make sure to relay it
to Castro. How I hope you have

1164
01:39:30.439 --> 01:39:35.760
a lot of transmission line read the
books. That was my first questions,

1165
01:39:35.800 --> 01:39:40.119
sort of like, and now there's
a Cuban who said he did this right,

1166
01:39:40.239 --> 01:39:43.319
So this is the basis of the
whole story. I was in Cuban

1167
01:39:43.399 --> 01:39:47.840
intelligence. I worked for Castro.
I monitor American communication. Well, okay,

1168
01:39:48.439 --> 01:39:55.199
what American you know? Where?
Who? What did you monitor for

1169
01:39:55.359 --> 01:40:00.279
Dallas? Castro ordered me to redirect
vi attan antenna like, well, okay,

1170
01:40:01.800 --> 01:40:11.880
redirect my antennas to pick up conversations
in Dallas. A little more detail

1171
01:40:12.079 --> 01:40:15.319
would be good. On the surface. That just makes no sense at all.

1172
01:40:15.239 --> 01:40:20.279
Well, it's it's kind of like
when that Bob Bears CIA program by

1173
01:40:21.760 --> 01:40:26.239
yeah way trying to say everything that
happened in Russia was like the CIA said,

1174
01:40:26.279 --> 01:40:29.239
And as we've dissected on the show
multiple times, no that's not what

1175
01:40:29.399 --> 01:40:31.760
happened. In fact, you can't
even prove he made every visit. You

1176
01:40:31.880 --> 01:40:36.520
just took the word a KGB agents
and hoped it was the truth. A

1177
01:40:36.680 --> 01:40:42.680
mess, an absolute mess on both
sides. And that's and that's the real

1178
01:40:42.760 --> 01:40:46.000
message, is that whoever things they
know what happened is lying to themselves.

1179
01:40:46.199 --> 01:40:50.560
You still have no clue about major
portions of this case. There are a

1180
01:40:50.600 --> 01:40:54.720
lot of so much more to be
looked at. Yeah, absolutely true.

1181
01:40:54.920 --> 01:41:00.399
Okay, so let's try and get
through at least one more of these interesting

1182
01:41:00.520 --> 01:41:04.119
points, car because we've got about, I don't know, twenty minutes left

1183
01:41:04.159 --> 01:41:08.439
at most, so I'd love to
get through a couple more if we could,

1184
01:41:12.720 --> 01:41:15.520
Carmine, Yeah, yeah, Yeah. One of my favorites is and

1185
01:41:15.600 --> 01:41:17.960
I hope people won't think this is
too overly simplistic, but it's one of

1186
01:41:18.000 --> 01:41:21.159
my favorites because it was one of
the things that I got to contribute something

1187
01:41:23.279 --> 01:41:27.560
that helps our you know, And
and I do attempt to be neutral,

1188
01:41:27.640 --> 01:41:30.119
but I do believe in a feasible
conspiracy. So I do not support the

1189
01:41:30.159 --> 01:41:33.560
government's position, but I do respect
some of the people who do, but

1190
01:41:33.720 --> 01:41:38.680
I don't respect many of the officials
that do. But right, so,

1191
01:41:40.359 --> 01:41:44.000
one of the holes in their case
that I was proud to help contribute was

1192
01:41:44.880 --> 01:41:48.520
the thirty hour hole, which is
motive means an opportunity. So they have

1193
01:41:48.680 --> 01:41:55.039
never demonstrated a motive even to this
day, official or official supporter has ever

1194
01:41:55.199 --> 01:42:00.119
demonstrated with evidence a proven motive.
No, not a not a dim not

1195
01:42:00.199 --> 01:42:05.159
a demonstrable motive that has never existed
in the case. In fact, there

1196
01:42:05.279 --> 01:42:13.399
are contradictions to even possible motives that
are documented. Yeh, but but there

1197
01:42:13.439 --> 01:42:15.119
you have it. But it doesn't
matter. He was just crazy, right,

1198
01:42:15.239 --> 01:42:20.159
Okay, So yeah, they have
no motive. So means, as

1199
01:42:20.199 --> 01:42:25.199
we know, there are many problems, not even even if you because I'm

1200
01:42:25.239 --> 01:42:30.600
one of the people who believes that
the as I learned recently Carcino that the

1201
01:42:30.720 --> 01:42:35.239
carcano was it had reasonable flaws,
but it was an average weapon. But

1202
01:42:35.279 --> 01:42:40.560
it was an average resale weapon,
which other examples of the same lot blew

1203
01:42:40.680 --> 01:42:44.439
up. So it wasn't great,
it wasn't horrible, but it certainly wasn't

1204
01:42:44.439 --> 01:42:49.239
a good weapon, and it had
flaws. So are the means strong enough

1205
01:42:49.439 --> 01:42:56.359
to say definitively no? But not
so he doesn't have a motive, He

1206
01:42:56.439 --> 01:43:00.359
doesn't have any definitive means. He
has possible means, And we go to

1207
01:43:00.399 --> 01:43:03.079
the park that I love most opportunity
because, based on the evidence that the

1208
01:43:03.119 --> 01:43:08.359
government has given us, he has
roughly thirty hours over three days of incremental

1209
01:43:08.399 --> 01:43:12.039
time to do everything, including come
up with why he wants to shoot JFK.

1210
01:43:12.760 --> 01:43:16.279
If he's acting alone, because he
can't know before the newspaper put out

1211
01:43:16.319 --> 01:43:24.920
the parade route. It's just that
simple real motive. Questionable means little opportunity,

1212
01:43:26.199 --> 01:43:31.880
And the only way to expand his
opportunity is to say that he was

1213
01:43:32.199 --> 01:43:41.079
informed by someone who had been in
the know, which means you have somebody

1214
01:43:41.199 --> 01:43:45.039
helping him, at least from a
logistical point of view. Hey, look,

1215
01:43:45.680 --> 01:43:48.640
we know next week, this is
where the man's going to be get

1216
01:43:48.720 --> 01:43:54.079
ready. If you give him seven
days, that's a little better, isn't

1217
01:43:54.119 --> 01:43:57.640
it. Well, it's a hell
of a lot thirty and thirty hours at

1218
01:43:57.720 --> 01:44:00.479
best. Yes. And here's another
thing. If he was so committed,

1219
01:44:01.119 --> 01:44:05.359
if all you have is a thirty
hour window, one thing you might want

1220
01:44:05.399 --> 01:44:12.600
to do is practice. But he
never did that. In fact, there's

1221
01:44:12.640 --> 01:44:18.319
actually no reliable evidence that we can
show for in practicing purchasing ammunition. The

1222
01:44:18.479 --> 01:44:24.000
FBI attempted to find those things,
and we have, you know, a

1223
01:44:24.119 --> 01:44:28.680
couple of anecdotes about a shooting range
incident, one with which they couldn't prove

1224
01:44:28.720 --> 01:44:30.920
that the Commission had to dismiss them. So even they don't get behind that,

1225
01:44:31.600 --> 01:44:36.439
right. I think it was Garland
was the guy's last name that stated

1226
01:44:36.479 --> 01:44:42.079
that he saw oswalded a shooting range
shortly before. But that's it. Yeah,

1227
01:44:42.199 --> 01:44:45.920
that's all he got. Yeah,
and they can't even so, so

1228
01:44:46.039 --> 01:44:49.479
he's got no practice. So where
are his motive means an opportunity? They

1229
01:44:49.520 --> 01:44:51.680
don't, As someone pointed out to
me in one of the groups, they

1230
01:44:51.720 --> 01:44:55.600
don't have to prove that legally.
Well no, once they lowered the legal

1231
01:44:55.680 --> 01:45:00.159
expectations, they don't. But those
are pretty standard. Most cases, from

1232
01:45:00.159 --> 01:45:03.920
the simplest to the most complex,
can prove those things. Judges look for

1233
01:45:04.039 --> 01:45:12.960
those things. What are your thoughts, Larry Well, I mean I've heard

1234
01:45:13.039 --> 01:45:17.800
it. Motive well, I won't
even go there, but I mean I've

1235
01:45:17.840 --> 01:45:24.279
heard that the time cut from thirty
hours to about eight hours. Carmine,

1236
01:45:24.600 --> 01:45:29.720
I mean and serious seriously promoted to
the fact that there was no planning,

1237
01:45:29.800 --> 01:45:34.720
There was no preparation. Once Marina
rejected moving in with him that evening and

1238
01:45:34.880 --> 01:45:42.880
rejected his advances this all. It
all occurred overnight, and it was essentially

1239
01:45:43.000 --> 01:45:49.279
a spontaneous action as of that morning
or sometime that night when he just you

1240
01:45:49.359 --> 01:45:54.279
know, went into the garage,
located the rifle, took it apart.

1241
01:45:55.079 --> 01:45:59.560
You know that it was even less
than thirty hours it was, which makes

1242
01:45:59.600 --> 01:46:03.159
it even less likely. That's the
whole problem, right, And that's seriously

1243
01:46:03.319 --> 01:46:09.319
been that serious. In fact,
I think to some extent, actually that

1244
01:46:09.560 --> 01:46:15.479
is the only that's the only one
really it's but it's the only one that

1245
01:46:15.560 --> 01:46:20.960
it would least be internally consistent.
Well, I'm saying, yeah, they

1246
01:46:21.039 --> 01:46:25.640
have to say that's that's all that
works now, yeah, right, But

1247
01:46:26.039 --> 01:46:30.239
it's not that he doesn't have to
dislike Kennedy. It's just he's he's been

1248
01:46:30.359 --> 01:46:34.439
driven nuts and he was now one
of the things I would offer, and

1249
01:46:34.640 --> 01:46:39.399
I don't. I don't know how
many listeners have done this. You can

1250
01:46:39.800 --> 01:46:46.439
you can go online and look up
a compilation of Oswald's last words, and

1251
01:46:46.640 --> 01:46:53.760
these are the actual statements of record
that he made from the time of his

1252
01:46:53.960 --> 01:46:59.640
arrest to the time of his death, and they include things like he's worried

1253
01:46:59.640 --> 01:47:05.239
about getting shoes for the older daughter
and if you do this, It gives

1254
01:47:05.279 --> 01:47:10.640
you a much better insight, I
think into where his head was, and

1255
01:47:10.760 --> 01:47:16.680
would be a refutation that that he
had done anything as part of a either

1256
01:47:16.800 --> 01:47:24.439
a plan or a spontaneous Oh,
I was temporarily insane, you know,

1257
01:47:26.119 --> 01:47:30.880
Marina drove me to it. You
know. Well. Another point against the

1258
01:47:30.960 --> 01:47:35.640
idea that this was pre planned,
by the way, is that if one

1259
01:47:35.840 --> 01:47:42.079
assumes, let let's let's make assumptions
for a second. You've decided you're going

1260
01:47:42.159 --> 01:47:45.560
to shoot from an elevated position in
the book depository with a rifle at a

1261
01:47:45.640 --> 01:47:51.920
moving target. Find you own a
handgun, according to most accounts, and

1262
01:47:53.159 --> 01:47:56.720
you don't bring that with you because
you know, after you fire a gun,

1263
01:47:57.039 --> 01:47:59.720
you might think to yourself, I
might have to shoot my way out

1264
01:47:59.760 --> 01:48:05.319
of here. He didn't have the
pistol on him, not by anybody's stretch

1265
01:48:05.359 --> 01:48:11.840
of the imagination. If I was
planning on shooting somebody from an elevated position,

1266
01:48:12.000 --> 01:48:15.840
especially because I thought that might attract
the cops, I would bring the

1267
01:48:15.920 --> 01:48:19.319
handgun with me in case I had
to shoot my way out. Yeah,

1268
01:48:19.920 --> 01:48:28.920
So that only fits the spontaneous He
went psychotic overnight because he was true.

1269
01:48:28.920 --> 01:48:33.039
I mean, that only does not
fit anything other than him deciding to do

1270
01:48:33.239 --> 01:48:38.960
that spontaneously sometime in the early morning
or late at night. Well, and

1271
01:48:39.079 --> 01:48:43.840
the problem is is that basically what
the official argument is now relying upon as

1272
01:48:43.960 --> 01:48:47.640
the evidence accruise against it, is
the God of the Gaps argument. It's

1273
01:48:47.760 --> 01:48:50.640
the evidence. It's the gaps and
the evidence that they're hoping to hide him

1274
01:48:50.640 --> 01:48:54.439
at this point, and that doesn't
look likely as more evidence comes out,

1275
01:48:55.199 --> 01:48:59.560
So we might want to reconsider that. You know what, It probably isn't

1276
01:48:59.680 --> 01:49:04.000
true. The most fringe conspiracy ideas
they're not true, But the most stolid

1277
01:49:04.119 --> 01:49:09.600
official ideas that cannot even begin to
imagine that it could be more than Oswald

1278
01:49:09.880 --> 01:49:14.039
are probably not true too. That's
correct, I mean that's the way I

1279
01:49:14.159 --> 01:49:16.359
see it. Anyway, Look as
we come down to the last little bit

1280
01:49:16.439 --> 01:49:23.560
here, I think you made interesting
arguments and observations and we've been able to

1281
01:49:23.640 --> 01:49:26.079
kick them around. Do we have
one more we can maybe fit in?

1282
01:49:27.960 --> 01:49:30.279
Well? Okay, yeah, so
we motive means opportunity. Well, and

1283
01:49:30.319 --> 01:49:33.039
i'd also go to that. Let's
say, let's indulge for a second the

1284
01:49:33.159 --> 01:49:39.039
idea that where they have now found
themselves officials, that they must say he

1285
01:49:39.199 --> 01:49:43.239
was crazy And he doesn't even have
the roughly thirty, he's only got eight.

1286
01:49:43.880 --> 01:49:45.520
And if we break that down,
yeah, eight at best. And

1287
01:49:45.680 --> 01:49:49.720
what does he do with it?
He watches TV, he hangs out with

1288
01:49:49.800 --> 01:49:55.039
his kids. This is the most
important day of his life. He's gonna

1289
01:49:55.039 --> 01:49:58.159
try. So it's what did he
dream about it? So he doesn't even

1290
01:49:58.199 --> 01:50:00.920
have eight? When did think of
this while he was watching TV or playing

1291
01:50:00.920 --> 01:50:03.079
with his kids? Is that when
you come up with an assassination plan?

1292
01:50:03.520 --> 01:50:08.199
Well, see, one could argue
that if you've already decided you're on a

1293
01:50:08.279 --> 01:50:11.600
suicide mission, maybe that is what
you do with your time. Well,

1294
01:50:11.800 --> 01:50:14.359
and that's fine, but you have
to give us a basis for the suicide

1295
01:50:14.439 --> 01:50:17.560
mission. I understand. But yeah, I mean they're just so. I

1296
01:50:17.960 --> 01:50:19.920
mean, if that's what they want
to believe, that's fine, you can.

1297
01:50:20.119 --> 01:50:24.079
Everyone is entitled to believe whatever they
like in spite of the evidence.

1298
01:50:24.439 --> 01:50:29.560
But it's not gonna be right.
I mean, there is what is the

1299
01:50:29.600 --> 01:50:32.399
substantial life? Even and then if
you go into it, like how about

1300
01:50:32.439 --> 01:50:35.960
how about the witnesses that changed their
testimony? How about that for a second,

1301
01:50:36.279 --> 01:50:41.920
how about Marina, perhaps the most
inconsistent witness in the case, red

1302
01:50:42.000 --> 01:50:45.119
Lick from the Commission's on staffs that
she lied to them, So you know,

1303
01:50:45.840 --> 01:50:48.760
how can we rely on She gave
two versions of what Oswald did that

1304
01:50:48.880 --> 01:50:53.800
morning. She said he got up
before her and then that she had to

1305
01:50:53.800 --> 01:50:57.479
wake them up. In another version, what happened. We don't even know

1306
01:50:57.560 --> 01:51:04.000
what happened. That's a good example
of a myth. We we really don't

1307
01:51:04.199 --> 01:51:14.880
know what did happen that night.
We all of the That's why one of

1308
01:51:14.960 --> 01:51:21.640
the basic myths is that we understand
the twenty four hours before the shooting,

1309
01:51:23.159 --> 01:51:26.720
and we really don't certainly holes of
it. I mean, you know,

1310
01:51:26.880 --> 01:51:28.840
like what the thing. I tried
to do a timeline to tract on as

1311
01:51:28.880 --> 01:51:30.520
much as I could from the official
files, but of course there's still holes.

1312
01:51:30.520 --> 01:51:32.920
It's not like today. You know, there weren't people with's cameras everywhere

1313
01:51:33.039 --> 01:51:36.920
showing you. They couldn't ping you
to find out where you were. Yeah,

1314
01:51:36.960 --> 01:51:42.359
that's true, that's true. I've
had that discussion with people. Imagine

1315
01:51:42.399 --> 01:51:45.319
what would happen today. First of
all, there would have been more than

1316
01:51:45.399 --> 01:51:53.119
twenty films of Kennedy and Daily Plaza, and they might have been to put

1317
01:51:53.119 --> 01:51:58.600
it on Instagram. High Lee go
into the sub shop. Yeah really,

1318
01:51:58.760 --> 01:52:01.159
I mean we we would have had
Facebook check ins from Oswald. I mean,

1319
01:52:01.279 --> 01:52:05.279
you know, it would have been
a whole different circumstance. Of course,

1320
01:52:05.319 --> 01:52:08.880
there's going to be holes. That
was back in the days when you

1321
01:52:08.920 --> 01:52:13.079
didn't expect to see cameras filming you
everywhere you went or people taking your picture.

1322
01:52:13.439 --> 01:52:16.880
It was kind of a rare event. So you know, this is

1323
01:52:16.920 --> 01:52:21.800
what I will put. I'll put
for one myth that we can could deal

1324
01:52:21.880 --> 01:52:26.199
with in like two or three minutes. Sure, and that is the myth

1325
01:52:26.279 --> 01:52:31.119
that the Warrent Commission report itself was
supported by all the commissioners. Oh yeah,

1326
01:52:31.239 --> 01:52:39.319
certainly not Bogs. Bogs didn't support
it, Richard or Richard Russell didn't

1327
01:52:39.319 --> 01:52:44.640
support it, for God's sake,
and he was lying to the rest of

1328
01:52:44.720 --> 01:52:48.199
them. The reason I wanted to
introduce that was this gets back to the

1329
01:52:48.359 --> 01:52:54.520
Grand Conspiracy. This is all well
pre planned, and you know, all

1330
01:52:54.640 --> 01:53:01.920
well orchestrated, and you know it's
it's it's really professional and orchestrated conspiracy.

1331
01:53:03.079 --> 01:53:11.039
In the end, we have what
is arguably one of the sloppiest autopsies in

1332
01:53:11.800 --> 01:53:16.039
history. We have promis with all
of the chains of evidence. The President

1333
01:53:16.239 --> 01:53:21.479
actor trying three different approaches to shut
this whole thing down with and at just

1334
01:53:21.560 --> 01:53:28.600
an FBI report or a Texas inquiry
or whatever, is stuck with the Warrent

1335
01:53:28.600 --> 01:53:32.119
Commission, who has to browby for
a warrant to lead. And then when

1336
01:53:32.159 --> 01:53:36.560
it's all done and wrapped up in
a report, several of the commissioners are

1337
01:53:36.640 --> 01:53:40.760
still not comfortable with it. Now, I got to tell you, if

1338
01:53:40.840 --> 01:53:46.319
this was really a tightly orchestrated planned
operation, it doesn't sound like it.

1339
01:53:47.279 --> 01:53:55.439
Although I would add the counter here, Larry that statistically, when one examines

1340
01:53:55.800 --> 01:53:59.960
the inner workings of the Warrant Commission, it might have been more likely called

1341
01:54:00.039 --> 01:54:04.399
the Dullest Commission. And why do
I say that? Because he's more active

1342
01:54:05.399 --> 01:54:12.359
than any of the other commission members
in seeming to steer the questioning asking questions

1343
01:54:12.399 --> 01:54:16.760
in the first place. Uh and
and actually kind of moving the discussion along.

1344
01:54:17.119 --> 01:54:23.119
If one examines the executive you know, the executive sessions and the record,

1345
01:54:24.000 --> 01:54:30.119
it seems to me like Dullest is
definitely steering the whole thing. Oh,

1346
01:54:30.760 --> 01:54:34.119
I would agree with you, but
I think that would be if this

1347
01:54:34.319 --> 01:54:40.439
were really well thought out. To
me, he's steering it, and he

1348
01:54:40.640 --> 01:54:45.000
has to steer it, and Specter
has to be to fill all sorts of

1349
01:54:45.079 --> 01:54:49.399
holes in a stupid manner. You
know. You just look at at Spector

1350
01:54:49.600 --> 01:54:54.920
and he's making things fit, like
putting a size twelve into size six shoe

1351
01:54:55.000 --> 01:55:00.399
box. Right, they have to
make everything fit, which which speaks to

1352
01:55:00.479 --> 01:55:02.359
me is that they're working after the
fact, you know, like we got

1353
01:55:02.520 --> 01:55:05.840
to sell the story, we got
to make it fit. It wouldn't a

1354
01:55:05.880 --> 01:55:10.960
very good story to start with,
right. Exactly What I would add too,

1355
01:55:11.079 --> 01:55:14.479
is that you have to look at
the reasoning because people assume, okay,

1356
01:55:14.520 --> 01:55:15.560
well Alan dust was steering it,
so he must have been behind the

1357
01:55:15.600 --> 01:55:19.640
plot. Wrong. Alan Dulla set
up assassination plots against Castro, and if

1358
01:55:19.680 --> 01:55:25.079
any of that came out, his
life was over, his legacy was destroyed.

1359
01:55:26.119 --> 01:55:29.520
That's right. Lots of things not
to talk about. But yeah,

1360
01:55:29.560 --> 01:55:31.520
no, that's a very good point. That doesn't get back more that just

1361
01:55:31.920 --> 01:55:35.079
that's just what happened, and there
would have been good reason to do that.

1362
01:55:35.279 --> 01:55:41.600
I would just the myth that the
myth that this was all well organized,

1363
01:55:41.760 --> 01:55:48.079
coordinated and everything worked precisely certainly isn't
reflected in what happened afterwards. No,

1364
01:55:48.279 --> 01:55:50.960
No, a well loyaled machine.
It was not. I would say

1365
01:55:51.000 --> 01:55:54.680
that if any reason to believe that
the government might have been involved is not

1366
01:55:54.800 --> 01:56:00.680
because of how well it functioned,
but because of the disarray. Well said,

1367
01:56:00.439 --> 01:56:05.720
what's the old phrase there, Larry
good enough for government work, oh

1368
01:56:05.920 --> 01:56:11.039
man. And you know what,
I think that is a perfect way to

1369
01:56:11.079 --> 01:56:15.479
bring it to an end tonight,
because this is the reality of the situation.

1370
01:56:16.319 --> 01:56:19.520
You're not looking at a well oiled
machine after the fact for sure,

1371
01:56:20.800 --> 01:56:26.439
which again means there were a lot
of reasons for a lot of cover ups,

1372
01:56:26.600 --> 01:56:30.239
and they don't necessarily mean that it
was somebody covering up their own crime.

1373
01:56:30.319 --> 01:56:34.359
They were maybe trying to dissuade people
from kicking over the wrong stone,

1374
01:56:35.000 --> 01:56:40.359
which I do argue that Jim Garrison
did. He kicked over the wrong stone,

1375
01:56:40.479 --> 01:56:45.359
lots of them. And that's why
they wanted to destroy his investigation,

1376
01:56:45.640 --> 01:56:50.159
not because he had the answer regarding
who was responsible, but because there might

1377
01:56:50.239 --> 01:56:55.279
be other things that would see the
light of day in a public court,

1378
01:56:56.520 --> 01:57:00.520
like at least a dozen of their
informants in New Orleans, which is the

1379
01:57:00.680 --> 01:57:04.760
problem again, to see, they
didn't destroy the Garrison investigation because he was

1380
01:57:04.880 --> 01:57:11.199
right. They destroyed it because he
got too close to stuff they never wanted

1381
01:57:11.600 --> 01:57:15.880
ever to be seen by the public. That's what the problem was. And

1382
01:57:15.239 --> 01:57:18.960
in that case, if you transfer
that over to the Warren Commission, and

1383
01:57:19.119 --> 01:57:25.000
the fact that Alan Dulles, as
I said, statistically, was more involved

1384
01:57:25.159 --> 01:57:29.720
than the other commissioners, you'd have
to say, maybe that's the cause.

1385
01:57:30.000 --> 01:57:32.960
Just like Carmine laid out and Larry
backed up. But meanwhile, guys,

1386
01:57:33.159 --> 01:57:38.479
this one is all done. I
do advise you to go over to tepoktpaak

1387
01:57:38.720 --> 01:57:42.479
dot com. That is Carmine's website. Check out his books. Go over

1388
01:57:42.640 --> 01:57:48.079
also to Larry Hypenhandcock dot com.
Check out Larry's blog, check out Larry's

1389
01:57:48.680 --> 01:57:58.880
multiple books and also many articles on
Carmine's website. Tepoctpaak dot com have tons

1390
01:57:58.920 --> 01:58:02.039
of information and then more more than
some other people's books, not necessarily Larry's,

1391
01:58:02.039 --> 01:58:10.319
because Larry's books are always dense.
Yeah yeah, but but definitely gives

1392
01:58:10.359 --> 01:58:14.279
you a run for your money on
a bunch of other authors not gonna name

1393
01:58:14.399 --> 01:58:16.560
names, don't have time. But
the thing is, both of these guys

1394
01:58:16.600 --> 01:58:21.680
put out great information which is extremely
dense in the positive way. Lots of

1395
01:58:21.720 --> 01:58:28.039
stuff to be learned, brand new
information and in denial secret wars with air

1396
01:58:28.119 --> 01:58:30.079
strikes and tanks. I believe is
the full title. Don't have it in

1397
01:58:30.119 --> 01:58:33.079
front of me, but I'm pretty
sure that's what it is, and I

1398
01:58:33.239 --> 01:58:38.159
advise that book. Check out Human
time Bomb The Violence Within Our Nature from

1399
01:58:38.239 --> 01:58:44.840
Carmine Samastano and was that or or
on your local TV station if you like,

1400
01:58:45.079 --> 01:58:47.279
just I don't know, open your
eyes, look at the world around

1401
01:58:47.319 --> 01:58:50.800
you. But anyway, this one's
all done, and I want to thank

1402
01:58:50.880 --> 01:58:56.680
all of you guys for doing this, especially Larry and Carmine. Always great

1403
01:58:56.720 --> 01:59:00.319
when I can have the three of
us together on this show. Help helps

1404
01:59:00.359 --> 01:59:03.079
me feel a little smarter being in
a room with two other smarter guys.

1405
01:59:03.239 --> 01:59:06.920
Anyways, the Ocell effect is all
done, and no matter who you are,

1406
01:59:08.000 --> 01:59:09.840
where you are, not only do
I hope you're will, but I

1407
01:59:09.920 --> 01:59:13.720
want you to remember I am merely
O'Kelly in all of you are indeed the

1408
01:59:13.760 --> 01:59:30.039
effect. Good night. I want
them to appreciate the incredible job with doing

1409
01:59:30.039 --> 01:59:31.399
so. We are doing your job, the likes of which has never been

1410
01:59:31.479 --> 01:59:35.720
done before. I want them to
appreciate the incredible job with doing We are

1411
01:59:35.760 --> 01:59:39.680
doing your job, the likes of
which has never been done before. You're

1412
01:59:39.720 --> 01:59:44.279
gonna have mental depression for people.
You're gonna have large numbers of suicides.

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01:59:44.359 --> 01:59:46.880
Take a look at what happens in
a really horrible recession or worse. So

1414
01:59:47.000 --> 01:59:50.199
you're going to have tremendous suicides.
But you know you're gonna have more than

1415
01:59:50.239 --> 01:59:55.039
anything else, drug addiction. You
will see drugs being used like nobody's ever

1416
01:59:55.159 --> 01:59:58.560
used them before, and people are
gonna be dying all over the place from

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drug addiction.