1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:07,200 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,719 --> 00:00:12,039 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,000 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,640 murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together 6 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:28,440 with Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a 7 00:00:28,519 --> 00:00:32,439 researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social 8 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:37,759 media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 9 00:00:37,799 --> 00:00:47,880 in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Over Murder. I'm Kristin Dilley. 10 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:51,799 That makes me Bill Thomas. We're joined today with one of our very 11 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:56,200 favorite guests, Colleen Fitzpatrick, here to talk to us about the Boy in 12 00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:00,359 the Box case. Colleen, thank you for joining us. Yeah, Hi, 13 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:04,840 how you guys doing. We're good, We are good. We were 14 00:01:04,879 --> 00:01:11,200 just comparing temperatures in Virginia, home of Kristen Deli, Connecticut, home of 15 00:01:11,239 --> 00:01:18,480 Bill Thomas and California. And what's the temperature in California? All right? 16 00:01:18,519 --> 00:01:22,959 Now it's a little nippy at sixty five, and we're all running to the 17 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:29,159 closets for our winter clothing, phrasing people in heavy coats and hats and off. 18 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:33,879 It's not swimsuit weather. Let's put it that way. I used to 19 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:38,920 love this time of year in Los Angeles. If it dipped below fifty five, 20 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:44,719 let's say at night, would you, oh god, people would have 21 00:01:44,799 --> 00:01:51,519 their parkas out and they'd be shivering and take it's so cold. It's forty 22 00:01:51,519 --> 00:01:53,879 one degrees here in Virginia. And I know you just got a blizzard up 23 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:57,200 there, Bill, So what temperature is it in Norfolk? Or dare we 24 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:01,200 ask? It's twenty two degrees? Are you at the moment? And where? 25 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:07,799 God? Oh god, I don't even think that means your house? 26 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:10,960 Inside your house, you keep it at sixty five, and that's toasty to 27 00:02:12,039 --> 00:02:14,439 you. When I came home, I had to run some errands. I 28 00:02:14,479 --> 00:02:19,039 came back and my partner, Pamela, had just taught an online art class, 29 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,879 and so I turned the heat down because her studio has its own special 30 00:02:22,879 --> 00:02:24,840 heat. So she came downstairs and she said, did you just turn the 31 00:02:24,879 --> 00:02:28,039 heat back up? And I said, yeah, it was sixty two in 32 00:02:28,039 --> 00:02:30,319 the dining room. And she said, I must be getting used to this, 33 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:35,840 because that felt pretty good. It's cold. I was just sitting here 34 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:38,319 with the heater or on. I have a heat or right by my feet. 35 00:02:38,479 --> 00:02:42,319 Now. We don't turn the heat on here anyway because the houses are 36 00:02:42,319 --> 00:02:46,080 not insulated. Yeah, boku money to turn the heat on and have these 37 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:50,639 little floor heaters where you can cheat a little bit. And it's so cold 38 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:53,960 in southern California. Oh it's I'm telling you. It was actually forty nine 39 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:57,599 last night, and it was like, oh my god, are we going 40 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:05,360 into an ice age? The whole global warming discussion starts turning on again. 41 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:07,960 Pamela wanted to know if Colleen was ever going to come and visit again, 42 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:10,719 and I said, I hope she will. Bet I bet she won't come 43 00:03:10,759 --> 00:03:16,159 in February. I'll try and be out there. I'm out on the coast 44 00:03:16,159 --> 00:03:20,080 once or twice a year, out on the East Coast. I'd love to 45 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:23,719 come by. Speaking of the East Coast, Kristen and I have been talking 46 00:03:23,759 --> 00:03:28,280 about having you back for quite some time because we enjoy the conversation, and 47 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,039 I certainly feel like I learned a lot when we talk with you about DNA 48 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:35,000 and the work that you do. But we specifically wanted to ask you a 49 00:03:35,039 --> 00:03:38,000 little bit about the Boy in the Box case, which I know you've been 50 00:03:38,039 --> 00:03:42,840 working on for several years. Sure, so can you start just stuff for 51 00:03:42,879 --> 00:03:46,319 anybody who's not aware, who hasn't been following this wonderful solve. Can you 52 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:50,800 tell us a little bit about the Boy in the Box case? Just a 53 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:54,439 little overview? Yeah, I can to get some dates out. The boy 54 00:03:54,639 --> 00:04:00,680 was found. I believe it was in February in fifty seven. You can 55 00:04:00,759 --> 00:04:04,800 look that up on Wikipedia. He was found by I believe it was somebody 56 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:11,039 looking for squirrel traps or some kind of traps and he was in a J. 57 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:15,279 C. Penny bassinette box and so he was beaten, he was bruised 58 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:19,759 up. He probably died a blunt force trauma to his head. At that 59 00:04:19,959 --> 00:04:26,639 time, Philadelphia, nineteen fifty seven, this was an unusual case. This 60 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:30,879 was set the whole city on fire about how how could the boy get there? 61 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:35,000 What's going on with that? And some of the people nowadays that I've 62 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:39,639 been in touch with and I worked with were actually about the same age the 63 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:43,600 boy would be. So they told me that when they were young, they 64 00:04:43,639 --> 00:04:47,480 went with their parents to the grocery store to put up flyers to see if 65 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:53,439 anybody recognized the boy and could identify his parents. I have to look up 66 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:58,079 who did. But there was like four hundred thousand flyers sent out and also 67 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:02,839 included in the elect bills to people to try and see if anybody would recognize 68 00:05:02,879 --> 00:05:08,120 them. And of course nobody came forward. Nobody said anything. And then 69 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:11,800 the case when cold. If you look at what we had to work within 70 00:05:11,959 --> 00:05:17,000 fifty seven compared to now, yet it was very primitive technology and that nothing 71 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:21,800 could be done really except hope somebody would come forward. They I think they 72 00:05:21,519 --> 00:05:27,160 tried to trace the JC penny box and they were able to trace some of 73 00:05:27,199 --> 00:05:30,279 them, but not all of them, and it went nowhere. I think 74 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:33,720 there were twelve boxes sold and that maybe they traced half of them or something 75 00:05:33,759 --> 00:05:39,560 like that. And there were other pieces of evidence found that sounded promising. 76 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:44,519 They found a man's cap nearby and some other things. They even traced the 77 00:05:44,759 --> 00:05:48,480 hat back to a store, and again in the description of the man who 78 00:05:48,519 --> 00:05:53,319 bought the hat, everything seemed to lead to a dead end. There were 79 00:05:53,439 --> 00:05:57,120 people that came forward and said they thought they knew who the boy was, 80 00:05:58,519 --> 00:06:01,319 just it's such a sad case. Mass media at the time, which would 81 00:06:01,399 --> 00:06:09,040 mostly been newspapers, they courage case to a tremendous degree. People in Philadelphia 82 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:13,079 remembered this case. Yeah, it was one of those. It was that 83 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:17,519 case that you hope would be solved, You know that case. And of 84 00:06:17,519 --> 00:06:23,639 course moner technology has advanced, and there was oh there was also a handkerchief 85 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:27,040 with g on it. Oh, yeah, I didn't remember that, and 86 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,759 that didn't go anywhere. He was wrapped in a blanket. They looked at 87 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:34,519 that. There was really not too much much evidence there that would lead anywhere. 88 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:39,879 Over time. Another thing they did was they photographed the boys sitting up 89 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,680 in a chair, hoping he would look a little bit more natural, and 90 00:06:43,879 --> 00:06:47,959 nothing really went anywhere. He was as time went on. The National Center 91 00:06:47,959 --> 00:06:55,879 for Missing Exployed Children. I believe Carl Koppelman also did reconstructions of facial reconstructions 92 00:06:55,959 --> 00:07:00,759 or artists renditions of what he would look like. Then they just never had 93 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,639 so about nineteen ninety they exhumed his body for DNA. He was also transferred 94 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:11,759 from the Potter Cemetery to Ivy Hill Cemetery. In the cemetery donated a really 95 00:07:11,879 --> 00:07:15,600 nice grave for him. That was about it. Nothing really panned out. 96 00:07:15,639 --> 00:07:20,879 The DNA that they got from nineteen ninety eight, that was again primitive analysis 97 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:27,120 that went nowhere. It really wasn't anything. So the only really hope of 98 00:07:27,199 --> 00:07:32,240 identifying him would be genetic genealogy. I think everybody came to that conclusion. 99 00:07:32,639 --> 00:07:38,000 So that's how I got involved. At one point, How did you and 100 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:43,000 Identifyeders ultimately get involved? Did you get a phone call from somebody who said, 101 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:45,480 my gosh, you just have to look at this case or was this 102 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,319 always a wish list case for you? It crept up on me because I 103 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:53,720 had been in touch with the powers that be on that. I don't remember 104 00:07:53,759 --> 00:07:57,399 even know how I heard about it. I got interested in it about probably 105 00:07:57,399 --> 00:08:03,079 about two eleven, maybe before that, and I was in touch with somebody 106 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:07,839 named John Nemick who was working the case or one charge of it, being 107 00:08:07,879 --> 00:08:11,639 a guardian of the case for a Neck Neck and probably for the VDOX Society, 108 00:08:13,399 --> 00:08:16,279 and I exchanged a few emails with him. I found out they had 109 00:08:16,279 --> 00:08:22,959 done mitochondrial DNA sometime in the past with midotyping, and I traced the DNA 110 00:08:22,079 --> 00:08:26,120 being sent back to the Philadelphia Police Department. But that's about as far as 111 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:31,440 it went as far as mitochondrial DNA. They got some MIDO from the boy 112 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:35,240 and there was really nothing there that could you could hang your hat on. 113 00:08:35,399 --> 00:08:39,840 And then I've always I think I may have touched base with him once or 114 00:08:39,879 --> 00:08:46,720 twice John Nemick along the way, but nothing happened. And then about five 115 00:08:46,799 --> 00:08:50,679 years ago before the pandemic, maybe two thousand, yet it must have been 116 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:54,519 two eighteen, I went to a seminar in Florida at I think it was 117 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:58,559 University of Florida wherever Aaron Kimmeley is. I think she might be at Florida 118 00:09:00,039 --> 00:09:03,799 RSU, Florida, And she gave a cold k seminar and I went out 119 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:07,399 there and they were going to have a talk by on a number of things 120 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:13,720 everywhere from DNA to confessions and how do you tell a suicide from a homicide. 121 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:18,159 It was really an interesting type group. It was only like thirty people. 122 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:22,639 But when the guy got up in the beginning and welcomed everybody, he 123 00:09:22,759 --> 00:09:26,960 said, blah blah blah. He was ed Gogan from Vidak and Errands and 124 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,240 Vitoc two, so I didn't know all that, but he said he was 125 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:35,360 welcoming people, and he happened to mention the Phoenix Canal murders, and of 126 00:09:35,399 --> 00:09:39,399 course my hand caught fire and I ran after him at the break and we 127 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:43,879 had never met each other, so we met each other and convened in mind 128 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,360 melded on the Phoenix Canal murders. But then he said, have you heard 129 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:50,840 ever heard of the Boy in the Box? And I said, of course 130 00:09:50,879 --> 00:09:54,039 I have, and I've been in touch with John Nemmick. He said, 131 00:09:54,039 --> 00:09:56,480 would you consider doing it? I said, yeah, sure, you like 132 00:09:56,559 --> 00:10:01,360 a challenge? Yeah, I like it. I do though eighteen whatever. 133 00:10:01,919 --> 00:10:05,799 So anyway, that kind of woke me up again. And then in two 134 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:11,159 thousand, I think it was nineteen right, they came up. We had 135 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:16,440 a call from the Emmy Medical Examiner in Philadelphia in the DNA DOE project, 136 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:20,840 and on that call we had a couple of calls, and finally he asked 137 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:26,120 me if I would take the case that they had already tried once to do 138 00:10:26,159 --> 00:10:31,399 the DNA micro ray and it really didn't work out. So he asked me 139 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:33,720 what. I look at it and I said sure. Then that started the 140 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:39,000 second, the real push to the end, that was, is this like 141 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:43,480 too long an explanation? Exactly what we're looking for, and you have this 142 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:48,480 fascinating backstory. We know we want all of this. This is fantastic. 143 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:52,600 So that's when it really started. And I went to the exhumation April the 144 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:58,200 twenty fifth, twenty nineteen, the second exhumation, and I have pictures of 145 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:01,559 that which I cannot share, but basically the body was just a bunch of 146 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:07,279 old bones. In nineteen ninety eight, they had redressed him in a little 147 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:09,639 jumper, his remains in a little jumper. He was probably all bones at 148 00:11:09,639 --> 00:11:13,159 the time. And it wasn't like awful. It was I've been to a 149 00:11:13,159 --> 00:11:18,639 couple of exhumations and basically all of a bunch of bones, and we looked 150 00:11:18,639 --> 00:11:22,080 at what remains were available. They had already had some teeth, We took 151 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:26,320 a femur, we took the tailbone, but we already had some teeth, 152 00:11:26,399 --> 00:11:30,200 the jaw, and so we reinterred him. Right after that, the cemetery 153 00:11:30,279 --> 00:11:35,519 donated all that. His coffin was actually covered in more of a metal kind 154 00:11:35,519 --> 00:11:39,879 of cover. They had to be unscrewed and lifted. He was well protected. 155 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:43,679 And so then we went back to the Emmy's office and looked at the 156 00:11:43,759 --> 00:11:46,679 Morgan and looked at what was available. There was a bunch of teeth, 157 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:50,919 the bones. They had actually x rayed the coffin with him in it. 158 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:54,360 What was interesting to me, which I did not know. They had x 159 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:58,120 ray his skull and all of that. So what was interesting, which I 160 00:11:58,159 --> 00:12:01,960 did not know, is that when a child has his baby teeth coming out, 161 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:07,600 and the baby teeth are out, adult teeth are actually loaded already in 162 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:11,720 his jaw, his adult teeth are there. He's armed for armed for bear. 163 00:12:13,519 --> 00:12:16,679 It's only when the adult teeth start coming out did the baby teeth drop 164 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:20,960 out. So they had the x rays with the adult teeth and then the 165 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,799 baby teeth under it, and they had xt rayed his head. They extrayed 166 00:12:24,799 --> 00:12:28,960 the whole thing, hoping there was something else that they could find, but 167 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:33,200 it would really there wasn't. There was just a bunch of old bones. 168 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:35,519 Now, when you talk about the X ray, does that mean that the 169 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:41,240 coffin at that point, Joseph Coffin, who was unnamed at that point, 170 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:45,480 it was out of the ground when they did these x rays. Yeah, 171 00:12:45,519 --> 00:12:48,519 that was in nineteen ninety eight. They x rayed the whole thing, the 172 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:50,879 x rayed him, They x rayed the coffin before they opened it, they 173 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:54,480 x rayed and that was like the probably the metal. I don't know if 174 00:12:54,519 --> 00:12:58,200 the metal thing was over it at the time, but I saw you could 175 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:01,559 see the nails going in the side of the coffins, extra and stuff like 176 00:13:01,639 --> 00:13:07,240 that. Yeah, it was interesting. Did they cover it with metal with 177 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:11,519 the idea that they might be able to go back to it one day and 178 00:13:11,639 --> 00:13:13,919 get a DNA profile from it? Is that why they covered it? But 179 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:18,240 I really don't know. That's a really good question. It could have been 180 00:13:18,519 --> 00:13:24,559 some It could be anything from a procedure that cemetery does to just attribute somebody 181 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:30,039 did some extra money to give a better burial forum all the way to the 182 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:35,159 city required it, or I don't think they really thought ahead about getting more 183 00:13:35,279 --> 00:13:39,480 DNA out of it at that time. Who would have anticipated the revolution. 184 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:46,279 At the time of the exhimation, sixty two years had gone by since he 185 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:52,200 had been murdered. There's no one on the Philadelphia Police Force who would have 186 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:56,440 been working the case for that many years. Were any of those detectives from 187 00:13:56,440 --> 00:14:01,720 the original case with any of them still even alive at that point, Not 188 00:14:01,759 --> 00:14:05,799 to my knowledge. The detectives working on it had been They were the same 189 00:14:05,879 --> 00:14:11,039 age as the boy would be now. Detective Bob Hesser and Bob and Bill 190 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:13,559 Fleischer, who were the key people. I didn't know detective son of Maala 191 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:20,879 so much. But they actually became knowledgeable about the case later as they joined 192 00:14:20,919 --> 00:14:24,639 the Forests and they and of course everyone knew this case, so they probably 193 00:14:24,879 --> 00:14:28,759 learned about it as young adults, but they knew about it as children maybe 194 00:14:28,759 --> 00:14:33,679 in the area, but they became involved as young adults. Even some of 195 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:39,000 those people might have been in their sixties by that point. Yeah. Right, 196 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:43,360 the whole stories. Nobody the original people are gone. And in reading 197 00:14:43,399 --> 00:14:48,320 the stories, it just sounds like generations almost of law enforcement officers and medical 198 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:52,200 examiners and all sorts of people have worked on this case. Yeah, of 199 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:56,080 course, and it's been along and along Hall. I'm sure that there's been 200 00:14:56,159 --> 00:15:00,720 long periods of time when nothing could be done, and then it would come 201 00:15:00,799 --> 00:15:03,960 up again. You would want to you would learn something new about something and 202 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:09,399 think about all right, No, I don't think anybody's left. So do 203 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:11,600 you know which DNA lab did the work or are we allowed to have that 204 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:15,879 much information? Are you trying to keep that on the DL? I tell 205 00:15:15,879 --> 00:15:20,120 you the lab. There's several labs that were involved, but the final lamb 206 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:24,080 that did it I really can't disclose. They've asked me because they did it 207 00:15:24,159 --> 00:15:26,399 as a favor, or they did it just to see as any part of 208 00:15:26,399 --> 00:15:33,120 their experimental and releasing that information means that every genealogy company is going to start 209 00:15:33,159 --> 00:15:37,600 calling them and right, and they really they're not, and they have parted 210 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:39,600 company on good terms, saying it's really not their cup of tea. The 211 00:15:39,639 --> 00:15:45,159 reason we ask is because sometimes, as the DNA labs are mentioned, not 212 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:50,960 always though I noticed we read a dozen or more stories about this exciting development 213 00:15:50,159 --> 00:15:56,000 in Joseph's case, but I noticed that DNA lab never came up. The 214 00:15:56,080 --> 00:16:00,240 National Center for Missing and Exploited Children and Identifiers did, and other people that 215 00:16:00,519 --> 00:16:06,240 the Vidox Society and of course the Philadelphia Police Department. But I thought it 216 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:10,159 was curious there was no mention of who actually did the lab work. Now 217 00:16:10,159 --> 00:16:14,000 we understand what. Yeah, they are okay, they're happy it worked out, 218 00:16:14,039 --> 00:16:17,320 but they like I said, they did their favor or they did a 219 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:22,159 professional favor out of their own interest of course, to see if what they 220 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:25,200 could do, if it would work. And it was very enlightening, I 221 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:29,320 think, to the people about what happened and the fact that we were successful, 222 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:33,159 it's very good. But they asked to remain anonymous because it's not really 223 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:36,960 what they do. Since you brought up the name, let's go ahead and 224 00:16:37,039 --> 00:16:41,600 talk a little bit about the Vidoc Society and their involvement with this. So 225 00:16:41,679 --> 00:16:45,759 how did they come on board? And it's true, you're a member of 226 00:16:45,799 --> 00:16:48,080 the Vidox Society, is that right? Yes, i am. I'm a 227 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:52,639 full member. Became a member about a year or so ago, which is 228 00:16:52,679 --> 00:16:56,720 a real high honor. I'm very grateful for that. They have really kept 229 00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:00,639 the case alive. They have just devoted their own person resources, their personal 230 00:17:00,679 --> 00:17:06,799 interests, their personal support. It was really the Philadelphia Police Department in the 231 00:17:06,839 --> 00:17:12,119 Medical Examiner's office that identifiers and whoever this lab is or whoever we went to 232 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:18,079 several labs along the way, and that was the real technical effort. They 233 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:22,240 were just very interested and motivated to keep it out there in the public eye. 234 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:27,960 That's their job. That was their job. How is the DNA profile 235 00:17:29,279 --> 00:17:33,039 conveyed to you? And remember we're civilians here, do you mean how is 236 00:17:33,079 --> 00:17:37,559 the DNA profile conveyed to me? Once they had an electronic profile, is 237 00:17:37,559 --> 00:17:42,839 that something that can be emailed to you? Or how do they actually transmit 238 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:49,880 the information to say, okay, identifiers, here's the DNA profile for this 239 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:56,079 unknown young man murder victim. Basically, it's a it's just a dropbox or 240 00:17:56,119 --> 00:18:00,079 it's a WEE send file. It's just an elect trying to file. It 241 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,759 tends to be can be on the large side if you let it. And 242 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:08,880 the lab did iterations for us that. We had a discussion because, like 243 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:12,559 I said, they don't do this really and we had to retro fit what 244 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:17,480 we needed into what they did. So there was a bunch of discussions. 245 00:18:17,559 --> 00:18:21,480 But basically it's the same way. All of the files come through email or 246 00:18:21,559 --> 00:18:26,319 through dropbox. And again because we're both civilians, and boy do I wish 247 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:30,039 I'd paid more attention in science class. Now, when you pull a DNA 248 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:33,680 profile like up on your computer screen, what are you seeing? Are you 249 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:37,039 seeing? I assume you're not seeing a DNA helix like I have on my 250 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:40,839 DNA socks, and I assume you're not seeing columns of numbers? What are 251 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:42,960 you seeing? Precisely? I wouldn't even know how to interpret it, but 252 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:47,240 try to give me an image if you will. You know, I can 253 00:18:47,319 --> 00:18:49,720 even show you one. The thing is, we don't the raw data is 254 00:18:49,759 --> 00:18:53,640 one thing. Then when you put it on jetmatch or family tree, the 255 00:18:53,799 --> 00:18:59,039 results are something else. Sure, the raw data really has twenty lines of 256 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:03,559 the date, a name, and this is a nice file, we'd like 257 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:07,079 you to use it or whatever. And then it's what every line as we 258 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:14,319 used a million snips or something, so every line is a different snip chromosome. 259 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:18,599 It gives the GPS coordinates of the snip you want, and then it 260 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:23,440 tells you the value of that snip, what is on the chromosome at that 261 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:27,079 area, that location, And so I can even show you. It's just 262 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:30,839 it's really cut and dry. But they have a million of those. So 263 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:37,640 it's a real long text file. Very interesting because I'm still trying to imagine 264 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:40,920 it, and I think it's just gonna be one of those things that I'm 265 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:45,440 gonna I'm just gonna imagine swirling columns of numbers until I don't want yeah, 266 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,680 all it is. It's like a line, just a line of let me 267 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:52,480 see what it's. Oh, here I found my own twenty three in meat 268 00:19:52,559 --> 00:19:57,200 data. It says, it says the name of the snip. It says 269 00:19:57,279 --> 00:20:03,000 the chromosome. It's on the GPS coordinate of the snip, where it is 270 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:07,160 along the line there on the chromosome, and then it tells you what it 271 00:20:07,279 --> 00:20:12,079 is agcts located. And there's the million of those you get. You have 272 00:20:12,319 --> 00:20:18,119 the one, two, three, up to twenty three chromosomes, and then 273 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:21,119 you have twenty two, and then you have the X, and then you 274 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:25,559 have mitochondria. And if you're a male, you'll have y snips. So 275 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:29,039 you have the whole thing there, all the snips that they pick out. 276 00:20:29,279 --> 00:20:33,000 So that's what it looks like. I'm sorry I can't show you. That's 277 00:20:33,039 --> 00:20:37,799 really cool because yet the writer filmmaker in me and the person who's obsessed with 278 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:41,279 CSI is sitting there picture like swirling double helix is on a screen and I 279 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:45,759 know that's not what it is. It's just cut and dry, a bunch 280 00:20:45,799 --> 00:20:48,400 of numbers and letters and stuff, and that's all it is. And then 281 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:52,599 you upload that to jed match and it does stuff with it. Is this 282 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:59,920 work that you then started or was this part of a identifieder's team who begin 283 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,440 and working on this boy in the Box challenge. I did it myself first 284 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:07,480 because I'm the DNA guru on our team. But two and a half years 285 00:21:07,519 --> 00:21:12,039 later, after I figured out how the DNA worked, got the data that 286 00:21:12,079 --> 00:21:17,200 we can't show because we can't share screens. Once I had that and we 287 00:21:17,279 --> 00:21:22,920 uploaded it to Jetmatch, then our brilliant genetic genealogist, Misty Gillis went to 288 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:27,319 work and hammered that genealogy into place to get Gus's name to come up. 289 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:33,799 Where's Misty based out of Is she in California or elsewhere? She's located near 290 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,599 Chicago. So you handled it first, and then after two and a half 291 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:45,160 years, you handed it off to Misty for continued research into family connections and 292 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:48,680 building up family trees. It's all the genealogy. The Misty kind of hung 293 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,279 in there with me along the DNA. She learned a lot, but really 294 00:21:52,319 --> 00:21:57,240 I was power there trying to find out it had It failed a couple of 295 00:21:57,279 --> 00:22:02,400 times. It failed on micro ray, it failed on whole genome sequencing, 296 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:04,680 so we had to get a specialty lab to look at it. So this 297 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,839 took two and a half years. But of course Misty I always talked to 298 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:11,920 her about what the next step was and what happened and why I like it 299 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:17,319 when my team gets educated on what's going on and talking to them and they 300 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:21,880 come up with ideas sometimes. And then of course when the genealogy started, 301 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:25,160 she was taking the lead there, but I was in on it too, 302 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:32,200 making suggestions and watching what the detectives were asking us and what we should suggesting 303 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:34,359 what we should do, or asking if we had tried this or that or 304 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,839 the other thing, and he was learning from us, So she took the 305 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:44,200 lead after the data came in. You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll 306 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:57,279 be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at Mind 307 00:22:57,319 --> 00:23:03,200 over Murder. So where were you when you learned we've got the kid's name? 308 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:07,440 Do you recall where you were precisely when you got that news. That's 309 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:08,880 the sort of thing that would have made me jump up and down and scream 310 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,480 a little bit. I don't know if you're that kind of person, but 311 00:23:11,519 --> 00:23:15,359 I definitely would have been. I'm sitting right in the chair right here that 312 00:23:15,559 --> 00:23:21,160 the camera, but we had been in touch with the DNA lab Ryan Gallagher, 313 00:23:21,599 --> 00:23:23,720 We had been in touch with Bob Hesser, the detective, and Missy 314 00:23:23,759 --> 00:23:27,079 and I. So we had a call. I wish I had written down 315 00:23:27,079 --> 00:23:32,720 the date. It was October twenty twenty one when we went over all of 316 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:37,440 the discussion. All we had, all the family tree, we had pulled 317 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:41,279 some birth, marriage, death records. May have been in November we convene 318 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:45,359 because so we had to pull death records, birth records for the to fill 319 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,519 out the family tree and find out if mom had any other kids and stuff 320 00:23:48,559 --> 00:23:52,799 like that. That took months because we were in coke, coming out of 321 00:23:52,839 --> 00:23:56,079 coke, and so finally I believe it was October November twenty twenty one. 322 00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:00,079 We were all on the call going over that and finally at the end he 323 00:24:00,079 --> 00:24:03,200 says, Okay, we have it. We have it. That was a 324 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:07,240 really nice moment. However, the medical examiner was not on the call. 325 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:14,079 This was in parallel to what the medical examiner does daily on their job. 326 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:18,400 We were just trying to solve the case now or at least get a candidate 327 00:24:18,559 --> 00:24:22,359 so then to work with the medical examiner. It took several months because first 328 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:29,000 they were changing medical examiners, but also because the medical examiner from the outside, 329 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,799 he's going to ask questions like, how do you know dad doesn't have 330 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:37,480 another child that you don't know about Dad, Grandpa didn't have a child. 331 00:24:37,559 --> 00:24:41,160 Maybe there's another brother. Dad has a brother and you don't know about it, 332 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:45,160 and somebody is going to ask whether you covered that bait. So you 333 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,559 have to go back and work on that, and we did. It took 334 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:53,480 once the medical examiner had it. That was the last the medical examiner had 335 00:24:53,519 --> 00:24:56,640 to sign off on the death certificate, and that would make it legal. 336 00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,480 And I think also one of the aspects was that we've had a lot of 337 00:25:00,559 --> 00:25:06,200 violent crime and this is not the only priority of the detectives we work with. 338 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,799 Oh of course, So I think all things considered, what's going on 339 00:25:08,839 --> 00:25:12,640 in a police department, how shorthanded they are, you know, how hard 340 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:17,920 it is to be a police officer these days. I think they may have 341 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,920 held it off just because the powers that be didn't have time, weren't informed 342 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:26,839 yet, and it just took a lot to get everybody on the same page. 343 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,039 Let's put it that way. We had him as the candidate in October 344 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:34,519 November two, twenty twenty one, and we just announced in December twenty twenty 345 00:25:34,519 --> 00:25:40,160 two. You mentioned the name of the Philadelphia Police detective and I didn't quite 346 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:44,920 catch it. What's his name again, Bob Heusser. Once the EMMY was 347 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,799 on board, I do get the fact that we're talking about a case that's 348 00:25:48,799 --> 00:25:52,119 over sixty years old, and the EMMY isn't just blithly going to take someone's 349 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:56,759 word for it. Okay, we've identified this legendary case without having a lot 350 00:25:56,799 --> 00:26:00,640 of questions answered. But once he was on board, the thing is moving 351 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:06,880 forward. The cases moving forward, but slowly because of all the other challenges 352 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:11,039 that Philadelphia is facing. I know Philadelphia has had up, yeah, very 353 00:26:11,039 --> 00:26:15,880 serious problem with murders and other violent crime. Obviously, a sixty plus year 354 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:21,680 old cold case is not going to take precedence over something terrible lipen the night 355 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,960 before. Yeah, it's correct. It just took a while. It had 356 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:30,839 to be discussion with the families involved. The boy has half siblings and siblings 357 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,759 half siblings on both sides of his family. Some of that had to be 358 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,680 discussed with them, and that took time, and that wasn't something you did 359 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:42,000 every day. You returned to that when you had a moment, we were 360 00:26:42,079 --> 00:26:47,440 breaking out in hives almost when you kind of announced this. You just can't 361 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:52,079 tell me to come tomorrow, but you have to give some time and when 362 00:26:52,279 --> 00:26:55,759 am I available, when it is Misty available, we have to coordinate this. 363 00:26:55,839 --> 00:27:00,799 So it was really a question of patience for the last year. That's 364 00:27:00,839 --> 00:27:03,880 gonna be hard to have all of this great information there and you just have 365 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,279 to sit on it. I can't imagine I would have wanted to birth through 366 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:11,519 it. Yeah, the thing is too It was tough to do that, 367 00:27:11,599 --> 00:27:15,519 but it was also tough for a couple of other reasons. It was funny 368 00:27:15,559 --> 00:27:18,359 about a year ago, I think it was the police, like vice commissioner 369 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,839 or something of the sheriff came up on he did a new spot on the 370 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,000 Boy in the Box about the time at the anniversary, and then he was 371 00:27:26,559 --> 00:27:30,319 buried. The police officer, I believe it was the shriff for the commissioner 372 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,079 said there's going to be a breakthrough by the end of the year. I 373 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:41,599 always have gotten emails or messages from people and the public saying, oh my 374 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,640 god, just tell me, is he a Croatian? Is he Irish? 375 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:49,559 My uncle's Irish? I'm pretty sure that was my uncle's brother or my uncle's 376 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,720 nephew or something, or my uncle's brother. Can you please at least tell 377 00:27:53,759 --> 00:28:00,200 me if he's Irish and I usually say no. Then when this announcement came 378 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,200 out, that's going to be your breakthrough. I had people writing me like, 379 00:28:03,319 --> 00:28:06,039 oh my god, is it really you're going to make an announcement. 380 00:28:06,079 --> 00:28:08,160 You've identified them, and we had to sit on it. So what I 381 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:12,000 did was one of my close friends wrote and she said, is it the 382 00:28:12,079 --> 00:28:15,240 boy in the box? Are you going to announce it? And I said 383 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,119 no. He made a mistake. I think he meant the girl in the 384 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:22,519 box? And I said, do you know anything about the girl in the 385 00:28:22,599 --> 00:28:26,279 box? Anything about that case? And the friends said no, I don't 386 00:28:26,279 --> 00:28:27,240 know. I had never heard about it. I said, okay then, 387 00:28:27,559 --> 00:28:30,680 and she let it go. I thought that was a little bit clever, 388 00:28:30,799 --> 00:28:37,200 right at the right moment. I do remember it made news when the senior 389 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:42,640 officer said what he said about the fact that it's going to be significant news 390 00:28:42,839 --> 00:28:48,759 in the camp you play telephone, even within the police department, and somehow 391 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:53,759 everybody knew it was solved. I don't know how we were really tight lipped, 392 00:28:53,799 --> 00:28:59,119 and it's probably because the detective stepped out the room with his cell phone 393 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:03,000 every time it came up. Mark, are you giving somebody a surprise birthday 394 00:29:03,039 --> 00:29:04,799 party? And every time they walk in the room, you have to go 395 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:11,319 in the next room because him something. And there's even one of the members 396 00:29:11,359 --> 00:29:15,559 of the Vetox Society told me that after this phone call that we all decided 397 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,400 we had it. We had to present it to the medical examiner. He 398 00:29:18,519 --> 00:29:22,480 got a call. He was in Europe traveling and in the middle of the 399 00:29:22,559 --> 00:29:27,519 night somebody called him and said that they we had the identification made and the 400 00:29:27,559 --> 00:29:30,960 blue He's in Europe and somebody calls him in the middle of the night. 401 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,920 So then he said, a couple of weeks ago, the same guy, 402 00:29:33,079 --> 00:29:37,480 same person, he will not identify. It's Russian spies and deep throat and 403 00:29:37,559 --> 00:29:45,079 all this stuff going. I'm quite okay, I don't care. What do 404 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:49,160 we know about Joseph Augustus Arelli. I heard you call him Gus earlier. 405 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,440 I think that's sweet. What do we know about him? That? Not 406 00:29:52,519 --> 00:29:56,960 too much. We haven't released the name of the family last named Zarelli, 407 00:29:57,079 --> 00:30:02,519 so there's not that many face. A group is going wild with that name. 408 00:30:02,799 --> 00:30:07,079 We don't know too much except that it's an open homicide and the boy 409 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:11,039 was badly abused. And we also knew none of the theories was right, 410 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:17,079 none of them, which is interesting. A woman wrote me maybe a month 411 00:30:17,119 --> 00:30:19,000 ago and she said, I wrote a book on the boy in the box, 412 00:30:19,119 --> 00:30:22,640 and here's a picture of who I think it is compared to the boy. 413 00:30:22,839 --> 00:30:26,759 And she says, I'm absolutely sure that sim and I know she was 414 00:30:27,039 --> 00:30:30,960 waiting for me to jump through emails saying, oh my god, how'd you 415 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,200 figure it out? That's wonderful. But she was wrong, she was dead 416 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:38,720 wrong. So all I said was listen, thanks, I appreciate you keeping 417 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:44,519 this story alive. But all the theories that were developed over the years, 418 00:30:44,599 --> 00:30:47,720 all the way back to nineteen fifty seven, none of them pan out, 419 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:55,480 absolutely none, And some of them seem so close, like very plausible possibilities. 420 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,440 One is this Foster home that was only a mile and a half from 421 00:30:59,519 --> 00:31:02,960 yeah, where his body was found. And I know there's the leads from 422 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:07,119 the JC penneybox and the hat, the man's hat that we talked about a 423 00:31:07,119 --> 00:31:11,400 few minutes ago. And this woman, Martha came forward. Oh, Martha, 424 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:18,839 yeah, she offered a pretty plausible possibility, although she unfortunately herself had 425 00:31:18,079 --> 00:31:23,079 mental illness in her background, so that kind of colored law enforcement perception of 426 00:31:23,119 --> 00:31:29,720 what she had to say, although what she described sounded very plausible, something 427 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,000 about the baked beans and his stomach. He had baked beans, and I 428 00:31:33,039 --> 00:31:38,279 don't know that part about the baked beans, but the boy was very Martha's 429 00:31:38,319 --> 00:31:42,640 story was interesting because of the baked beans, but because he was clean, 430 00:31:42,759 --> 00:31:48,519 his hair was cut, and you would imagine that a child dying covered with 431 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:52,279 vomit, including baked beans, would be cleaned up. And she knew some 432 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,440 of that, but it turned out she was wrong. She was weird, 433 00:31:55,559 --> 00:31:57,640 and she didn't know what she was talking about. Now was wrong. By 434 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,319 the way, you mentioned Carl Coppelman a few minutes ago, and of course 435 00:32:02,079 --> 00:32:07,359 Carl's done some incredible work, and he's a self trained artist, and he 436 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:15,000 actually did a facial reconstruction of the boy when he was unknown, and actually 437 00:32:15,279 --> 00:32:22,960 his artistic renderings of victims are so good because unlike autopsy photos and other things 438 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:27,119 that are just off putting and hard to grasp what someone would have looked like, 439 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,880 he actually introduces life back into what these people might have looked like. 440 00:32:31,039 --> 00:32:36,799 And he has him cleaned up with a nice haircut and a fifties style shirt 441 00:32:36,839 --> 00:32:39,519 to the point where you could actually picture if you had seen that little boy, 442 00:32:39,799 --> 00:32:45,160 let's just say, at the grocery store or something. Carl's rendering might 443 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:51,599 actually trigger memory, as opposed to staring at these awful photographs of this poor 444 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,799 boy when he's lying on an autopsy table. I agree, And again the 445 00:32:54,880 --> 00:33:00,160 technology has improved a lot, and the boy was actually photo grab The general 446 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:05,880 picture of the boy was in sitting up, all dressed and in a chair 447 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,400 and more like that. But again that's very primitive compared to what we know 448 00:33:08,559 --> 00:33:15,559 today. Police sounded very confident when this announcement was made about Gus. As 449 00:33:15,599 --> 00:33:21,240 you were saying, Joseph Augustus Sarelli finally having a name. They sounded very 450 00:33:21,319 --> 00:33:24,640 confident that they had some strong leads now on what might have happened to him. 451 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:30,960 He was badly beaten, obviously, and this is an open homicide investigation, 452 00:33:30,039 --> 00:33:35,680 and there are sort of some clues to who did it, who did 453 00:33:35,759 --> 00:33:38,519 him in Again, I wish I could tell you more. I can't because 454 00:33:38,519 --> 00:33:44,359 it's open homicide. We are not involved in that we already know the story 455 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,960 and we know who we don't know who did it. There's enough clues that 456 00:33:49,039 --> 00:33:52,279 you can think about certain candidates rise to the top as opposed to others. 457 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:59,880 The boy was just very badly abused and he was probably died just because he 458 00:34:00,079 --> 00:34:02,200 was hitting the head. Something I wish I could tell you more because it 459 00:34:02,359 --> 00:34:07,400 is a rich story and here I'm on this very famous podcast to talk about 460 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:12,000 it and I keep hitting my head against the police. Don't tell anybody wall 461 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,960 that. Is there something something else you would like to talk about? Did 462 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:22,159 you pick up much on the emotion? Several of the retired detectives and active 463 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:27,480 duty detectives talked about how much of a personal connection they felt to this case. 464 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:32,760 I know you were dealing with the Philadelphia detectives mostly long distance and via 465 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:37,960 electronic means, but did you pick up on that their sense of how excited 466 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:42,840 they were to finally see a breakthrough in this I did because I was at 467 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,199 the exhumation and I met a lot of them there, and I met a 468 00:34:45,199 --> 00:34:49,840 lot of the VDAC people there, and they told me that they remember this 469 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,079 story and they have been They would be the same age as the boy, 470 00:34:53,199 --> 00:34:57,119 right now, and they went around, as they said, giving out those 471 00:34:57,159 --> 00:35:00,400 flyers with their families at the grocery store. It's not something you forget. 472 00:35:00,639 --> 00:35:06,880 Somebody your age is murdered and it's in like your neighborhood, or it's close 473 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:10,039 to you, it's in your town, and it's a situation that never happens. 474 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:14,719 Not only is he murdered, and I'm sure this child abuse that had 475 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:19,000 been going on just in general, but then when you find a young boy's 476 00:35:19,199 --> 00:35:22,719 body somewhere, just dumped in the public area that's accessible by the public, 477 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:27,000 that's not something you let go of. When you're a kid, when you 478 00:35:27,039 --> 00:35:30,000 see that, that's your first exposure to death, your first exposure to death. 479 00:35:30,079 --> 00:35:34,480 And not only that, but the murder of somebody who's your own age. 480 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:39,159 We're seeing here, I think the same sort of intense emotion that we 481 00:35:39,199 --> 00:35:44,559 also saw when the lady in the Dunes case broke a couple of months back, 482 00:35:44,599 --> 00:35:47,559 and there were so many people who were so excited and felt so connected 483 00:35:47,679 --> 00:35:52,679 to the victim of this truly horrible crime. I think it's fantastic that you 484 00:35:52,679 --> 00:35:58,320 guys are able to work on these much older cases. Is there I feel 485 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:00,679 like wish list is maybe a little bit of a gruesome way to put it. 486 00:36:01,119 --> 00:36:05,559 Do you have a wish list of other older homicides that you would like 487 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,360 to sink your teeth into in order to do this? Continue to doing that, 488 00:36:08,519 --> 00:36:12,960 Yeah, let me think about that. We just you must know about 489 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,840 the Somerton Man. That was a pretty good one. Yeah, that was 490 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:21,000 good because that was based on hair. Let's see, there's a couple as 491 00:36:21,079 --> 00:36:27,480 one from Deadwood. I worked on Deadwood. South Dakota was being like renovated. 492 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,719 There was a house that was they were building a retaining wall near the 493 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:37,360 house and they found a cemetery that was some people still left in a cemetery 494 00:36:37,639 --> 00:36:40,880 underneath the house. One of them was a man who's never been identified. 495 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:45,000 I did the y DNA on that some time ago. I think I'd like 496 00:36:45,079 --> 00:36:49,239 to do that. That's a really cool historical case. You have to be 497 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:52,480 incredibly challenging. Work you did on the Somerton Man case, which we talked 498 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:57,480 about a while back here on Mind of a Murder was just absolutely fascinating. 499 00:36:57,559 --> 00:37:01,760 Do you feel like you're going to be the go to person for these historical 500 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:07,360 cases? You've really faced down some pretty serious challenges. I really hope. 501 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:12,719 So it's I love international work. I do that pretty well. I've worked 502 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:16,400 with Australia on several cases that have yet to be announced that were very interesting 503 00:37:16,519 --> 00:37:23,079 and they were very international. There's always other cases the Plaza woman from isisl 504 00:37:23,159 --> 00:37:28,199 woman. Those are like the same as the Somerton Man that are out there, 505 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,519 and the authorities in those countries really don't want to go anywhere with that 506 00:37:31,679 --> 00:37:36,239 right now because they're still getting their toe in the water. I forgot we 507 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:43,119 had talked about the Somerton Man right that. I'm just fascinating conversation and yeah, 508 00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:45,960 I'm just trying to remember everything I've done in the last few months. 509 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:50,920 You must do a ton of media, Like what for a case like this, 510 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,320 how much how many interview requests are you fielding? How much media are 511 00:37:54,360 --> 00:38:00,119 you actually doing for these sorts of this particular case. What happens is if 512 00:38:00,159 --> 00:38:05,000 you give an interview for let's say the Philadelphia Inquirer, it's mirrored all over 513 00:38:05,039 --> 00:38:08,760 the place. I've really been this one. Somerton Man was over the top, 514 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:15,239 we had everybody. This one is actually more social media that's exploding over 515 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:22,000 it, less just regular conventional media. It probably will develop into see. 516 00:38:22,039 --> 00:38:25,039 The problem is too, is that Somerton man. We could talk about and 517 00:38:25,079 --> 00:38:30,079 talk about we knew the family. Family has come forward. We could talk 518 00:38:30,119 --> 00:38:34,159 about the long history, the piece of paper in the pocket, the hair 519 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,000 in the cast and all that. But the problem with the boy right now 520 00:38:37,079 --> 00:38:40,679 is we can't really talk too much because he was only four years old. 521 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:45,760 He didn't have a history. It's not like he went to college and then 522 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,599 he found his body and they investigated all his roommates and stuff like that. 523 00:38:49,679 --> 00:38:52,679 He was a boy. Probably pretty if there's a four year old child living 524 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:55,079 two blocks for me, I'm not going to know it because I don't have 525 00:38:55,159 --> 00:38:59,800 children myself, so he's a lot more obscure. And the fact it's an 526 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:05,159 and homicide is hard to speak about. It's very frustrating because there are some 527 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,400 very interesting things I could tell you about that, but I don't want to 528 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:12,400 interfere it with the investigation. That's understandable, and I don't want to make 529 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:17,039 it sound like we're criticizing the Zarelli family either. I know they said specifically 530 00:39:17,079 --> 00:39:21,320 that the mother and the father of this boy are dead, but that he 531 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:25,840 does have siblings or half siblings, but they haven't necessarily come forward, and 532 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:31,079 I understand that they might prefer to remain in the background. Another avenue where 533 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:36,119 if someone like a brother or a sister or someone like that came forward and 534 00:39:36,199 --> 00:39:42,239 began talking about Joseph Augustus Sarelli as little kid, would paint more of a 535 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,960 complete picture. Perhaps that will happen down the road. If an offender's ever 536 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:51,000 identified, Yeah, I got that, because he's younger than all of these 537 00:39:51,039 --> 00:39:55,239 half siblings that are still us. And I think there's another half sister who 538 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,440 was adopted out who never met him. He didn't know anything about him. 539 00:39:59,639 --> 00:40:04,800 So there's nobody really that can speak about it. There's really nobody. There's 540 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:08,639 maybe an uncle here or one of the sides. He may not know anything 541 00:40:08,679 --> 00:40:13,679 either, But it's so far in the past. Like I say, Somerton 542 00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:15,400 man, he was an adult. You have his divorced decree, he was 543 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:20,039 married, the brothers, sisters, they all grew up in the same house. 544 00:40:20,079 --> 00:40:22,599 You have family pictures. But in this case the boy is four, 545 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:27,559 there's and the parents are dead. So if there were any family pictures, 546 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:31,800 and why would you take family pictures? And he could like Gabriel Hernandez or 547 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:37,760 whatever. But back then there's just so little about him known about him, 548 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:40,559 and being four, he's not even a school yet. So there's where he 549 00:40:40,559 --> 00:40:44,840 would have met his peer, right, hopefully he would have met there would 550 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,280 have been school records, or there would have been He was originally thought to 551 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:52,760 be maybe as old as seven, but in that case, maybe that somebody 552 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:57,079 in second grade would know him a first grade. He was four. He 553 00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:00,000 didn't even go to school, so he's probably at home a lot. And 554 00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:05,039 some of the theories, which I know have been put aside, seemed to 555 00:41:05,079 --> 00:41:07,880 have a through line that there was a possibility that he was adopted and then 556 00:41:08,079 --> 00:41:15,360 abused by adoptive or foster or foster parents. Yeah. I don't know. 557 00:41:15,679 --> 00:41:20,840 I don't think that's correct. I think he stayed with his parents, or 558 00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:24,000 his at least one of the original parents. I don't think he was really 559 00:41:24,159 --> 00:41:29,719 adopted out. I don't think that's right. I guess the ultimate tragedy is 560 00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:36,079 that this happened and he was murdered and obviously missing and no one ever reported 561 00:41:36,159 --> 00:41:39,400 him. Yeah. Again, if you think about my neighborhood here, I 562 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:44,159 have kids running around, or if you had kid two or three houses over, 563 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:46,960 if the kid doesn't show up, if the kid disappears, I wouldn't 564 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:50,840 even think to ask. If I had my own kids, it would be 565 00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:54,000 one thing. And then you look back fifty years sixty years ago, you 566 00:41:54,039 --> 00:41:59,800 can always say, oh, he's off visiting his aunt. Were considering moving 567 00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:01,039 in New York, so I sent him to live with my aunt for a 568 00:42:01,119 --> 00:42:07,239 few months. There's nothing and there's no record of him except there's birth certificate. 569 00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:12,920 Other than that, there's no school record. No, I'm not sure 570 00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:16,000 we had you could get a baptismal record. We didn't try that. Oh. 571 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:21,920 We are so glad though that he has a name, and it's down 572 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,440 to the fantastic work that you and your team did that this poor little boy 573 00:42:25,519 --> 00:42:30,199 now actually has a name and someone can actually put it on a stone for 574 00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:32,920 him. So what is up next for your team? Can you tell us 575 00:42:34,039 --> 00:42:36,280 or do you have to keep it on with the DL like normal. I'll 576 00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:39,079 tell you we we have some really cool cases we're working on, and you 577 00:42:39,119 --> 00:42:43,639 really can't talk about some of them. Nom I will talk about that I'm 578 00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:47,760 very interested in is that we're doing Madison Jane Doe. She is a little 579 00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:53,199 girl that was found in a suitcase and two fifteen or sixteen in Texas and 580 00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:58,480 she had a feeding tube in the suitcase with her and she was discarded by 581 00:42:58,519 --> 00:43:01,239 the side of the road and some area of Texas. And we're doing a 582 00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:06,079 really bang up job. We've been working on it, I think three years 583 00:43:06,159 --> 00:43:08,199 four years now, three or four years now, and it's gonna It's not 584 00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:13,119 as prominent as buying the box, but the little girl is just it's so 585 00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:19,639 interesting because the DNA says she's got Mexican, she's got calif Old, California, 586 00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:24,679 Spanish, she's got French, Canadian, and she's got Central American, 587 00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:31,280 Guatemalan and El Salvadorian. What's interesting, We've made contact with the forensic people 588 00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:36,960 in Guatemala and El Salvador and they're helping us. We have her teeth being 589 00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:42,519 analyzed for the isotope analysis, and that will tell you where you grew up. 590 00:43:43,519 --> 00:43:47,880 Is Wolves in your teeth because everything you eat and drink, breathe becomes 591 00:43:49,039 --> 00:43:52,440 part of you in some sense. So when you are a baby, in 592 00:43:52,519 --> 00:43:57,559 your teeth are forming. Everything you eat drink becomes part of the enamel and 593 00:43:57,679 --> 00:44:00,800 that never changes. That's the one part of the body that never changes. 594 00:44:01,639 --> 00:44:05,760 So having her to find out where she was born to see if she was 595 00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:10,119 born in Central America or here. And I love that because your body is 596 00:44:10,159 --> 00:44:14,960 like a book on who you are, where you're coming from, and we're 597 00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:19,079 just turning one page after the book after another for the book. Do you 598 00:44:19,119 --> 00:44:23,119 think you'll be able to identify Madison Jane Doe? Yeah, I think so. 599 00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:29,079 We're going to keep trying. The databases are not great for Concentral Americans 600 00:44:29,199 --> 00:44:34,760 necessarily, so there's some distant matches and the forensic people in El Savador, 601 00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:38,760 we've turned over to them some candidates for cousins and relatives and great uncles and 602 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:44,239 stuff. They're going to do some work for us trying to find those families 603 00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:47,760 and discuss with them, help find out. That is one case that we 604 00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:54,239 really are very interested on, interested in and just taking a long time because 605 00:44:54,400 --> 00:45:00,360 of the ethnic back. That's one we're working on. Another Donde called Tuna 606 00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:04,480 Lake, and that's a man in the lake in Georgia, in Altuna, 607 00:45:04,559 --> 00:45:07,159 Georgia, who was he was shot, but at the same time he had 608 00:45:07,159 --> 00:45:12,960 swim fins on in the lake with rocks in his pockets. So you have 609 00:45:13,039 --> 00:45:15,360 to think, is what happened there? Is it murder? Is it suicide. 610 00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:22,119 It's so weird that one's carrying on for a long time because we had 611 00:45:22,159 --> 00:45:24,360 some problems with the samples, but I think we have them worked out now. 612 00:45:25,079 --> 00:45:29,280 Colleen, as always, thank you for taking the time to talk to 613 00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:31,760 the two of us about the amazing work you're doing. And please just keep 614 00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:36,239 right on doing it and as long as you keep breaking cases, we'll have 615 00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:38,480 you right back on the podcast. Okay, it's a deal. Sounds like 616 00:45:38,599 --> 00:45:43,239 a plan. Thank you so much for joining us on this episode of My 617 00:45:43,280 --> 00:46:05,000 Different Murder. We'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder is a production 618 00:46:05,079 --> 00:46:10,199 of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and 619 00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:15,519 Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is 620 00:46:15,559 --> 00:46:22,039 by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 621 00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,440 You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can 622 00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:30,079 also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, 623 00:46:30,199 --> 00:46:35,920 you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. Thank you 624 00:46:36,000 --> 00:47:06,440 for listening to mind Over Murder. My