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St Fax. That's Spott fat fat
happens at finer finer person at the cost

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to fund the doctor f to con
the facts. All right, what's up?

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Welcome? So we do have a
new cringe course song that just dropped

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00:09:37,919 --> 00:09:46,399
yesterday. If you missed it,
shout out to Rosta rosta man going mine,

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rosta man going be mixing up the
turntail brothers putting down the beads left

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and right. Yeah, what's up? Did you? I hear the new

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song? So I did a live
stream. I don't even remember what it

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was, and I made a joke
about reacis Dracula and my boy over here.

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Shout out to Skippy Johnson. Skippy
Jackson, he said that right there,

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y'ah, I ain't real song right
there. I making it into this

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song right now. And they're going
to do something like there's a prison as

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to make a pill conger in your
eyesight sound slee the taal will be great

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averything resent, don't you call me? I think not Spain and stream culture

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in the room game trees are story
and the plant storming jets its indeed for

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you to it's name all said,
there's a prison a pasta to make a

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pill. All right, that's enough
of racist Dracula. Anyway, that's the

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new CRNCH course song that just dropped. Thank you to Rosta Mangoon. He

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put together a nice mix, so
shout out to him. What's up,

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y'all. So we had a lot
of fun yesterday getting into the old classics,

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diving into the old debate reviews,
doing it up like we used to

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do it back in the old days
of two years ago. Thank you.

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I am a handsome vampire. That's
what all my bride, that's what all

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my thought thought bride bitch has been
saying for many years. As rape reality

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is Dracula, Me go a tree
bright at least running over there on to

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come girls writing a fine Yeah,
what's up y'all? Love it right when

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we do these debate reviews, the
bait reviews, y'all, let the debate

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review Well, we'll pick back up
where we were because we were having so

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much fun yesterday before I had to
go do Lord Voldemort's show. We were

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having so much fun talking about uh
crazy stuff. We saw that this discussion,

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which Brett Weinstein says, this is
the most important discussion ever on the

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internet. So we definitely want to
be over here involved in the most important

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discussion, but we got to learn
from it. We got to hear the

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intellectual dark web blowing our minds with
unfathomable intellectual sophistication and depth, such as

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questions of what if a bullet was
in a gun but then out of the

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gun, and then you could trade
the gun after multiple checks at the local

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casino for a million dollars, or
porcupines that were automatically loaded like a assault

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rifle porcupine. Basically, a porcupine
has an assault rebel that can shoot his

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quills. Right, we heard stories
about infant sacrifice. I mean, we're

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just all over the place, right, And we came up with some algorithms

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yesterday. So let's see where the
intellectual dark web is taking us next in

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this classic this is we'll do a
little bit more a part two. I

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was starting to get a little impatient
with part two because it's kind of dumb,

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and then we got a part three. Did you even know this goes

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on into a part four? Thank
you, Kate. Yes, the Internet

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has now confirmed that I am funny. The last few streams that we've done

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reacting to the TikTok, which is
the TikTok cringe, the TikTok ghosts and

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00:15:03,399 --> 00:15:11,399
Ufo Crypti people to TikTok star seeds. We have finally confirmed, right,

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Internet confirmed officially that I'm funny.
So all the haters over the years who

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said you are not funny, you
cannot make people laugh, You shall fail

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at life, you will become a
gutter bum. You are a loser man.

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What's up now? Where you at
now? I got a Mavado watch,

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I got a Pooka necklace. I
have a lover in the other room.

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I have an Internet channel channel and
a podcast on the Internet featured on

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Apple Podcasts. Not everybody can have
that. I have succeeded. I've achieved

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the pinnacles of what might we might
call power and fame or e celebtum if

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you would hit, like and share, let's get into it. Not everybody

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can go to the Movado outlet,
right, Not everybody could do that.

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You've got to be at a certain
level of Internet power. What's up?

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Shout out to all the peeps in
the audience. Where is everybody to night?

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It's Saturday. There's nothing else to
do. I can tell you that,

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right, Sam Sam Harris said,
you got a up level right,

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will be already up leveled. We're
at the top right now. The only

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place to go from here is sideways, I guess, because if you at

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the top, you can't. I'm
not going down. I assure you that.

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So we can go to the left
or to the right, I guess

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frontwards, are backwards or even diagonals. Right, that's the only directions to

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go. I could forever go diagonal. I'll still be at the top.

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You like it in the booger west
to thank you, thank you. Yeah,

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let's get into it. Now.
Where were we at? I don't

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remember, but let's say let's get
and again. It's the volume is all

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the way up. The original file
is low. So stop fussing at me.

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It's not my fault. But let
me see maybe I can turn try

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to turn them up a little more
in internals. Let's see place where it

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needs to be developed. Because I
see that the attempt that you make to

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derive the world of value from the
world of facts as as justifiable given what

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it is that you're attempting to do. This is the odd question, the

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better place. But there's a massive
gap in there. It's like, how

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do you do it? Because the
objection that you place on my my reasoning,

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let's say, which is well,
the problem with these text is that

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there's an infinite number of interpretations,
and which of them can you, how

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can you determine which of those is
canonically correct? Is exactly and precisely the

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same criticism that can be levied against
your attempt to extract a world of value

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from the domain of facts. It's
the same problem. It's not an I

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allow it to infinite, so that
well, it might be. I mean,

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that's why the moral landscape for me
is a landscape of peaks and valleys,

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and so I'm totally open to the
possibility, in fact certainty, that

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there are different So the moral landscape
is a landscape full of peaks and valleys.

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On his secular scheme, then we
don't actually have any benchmark by which

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to judge the peak versus the valley. You see that, So it just

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becomes an exercise in constant ad hoc
just assertion, because the question is where

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do we derive values? And he
says, well, the moral landscape will

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include peaks and valleys. Peaks and
valleys in reference to what like if one

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is a peak and one is a
valley that requires some kind of standard to

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say which is which. And one
point for Jordan Peterson here for making that

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point, which is what we've been
saying for long time. Different ways for

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similar minds and certainly different ways for
different minds to be constellated so that they

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have equivalent but irreconcilable peaks on the
landscape. So there's a lot of well

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being over here, and there's a
lot of well being over here, and

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there's a valley in between, and
so it's it's a kind of moral relativism.

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It's kind of like, you know, this is this is great,

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and this is great, but these
are irreconcilable. Right, Well, I'd

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like to see that made more concrete
and I need to know how that fits

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in with your consci Yeah, exactly, like just saying that, oh,

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it's a kind of moral relativism,
and uh, there's peaks and valleys for

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well being. So again, what
do we say that we would have appeals

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to what's true and what's good value
judgments versus bad and false. And he

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just admitted that it's a kind of
moral relativism, which is never going to

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give him the thing that he's trying
to it's just just it's an exercise and

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dishonesty and contradiction. Because one of
the claims that you make in the moral

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landscape is that the distinction between the
bad life and the good life is normal.

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It's like it's a factual distinction.
Yes, it's universally it's universally apprehensible

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and true. It's your I think
it's your fundamental axiomatic claim. And I

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don't see how that's commensurate with the
position that you just put correct. So

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he basically, yeah, exactly,
And you can forget about morality as a

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concept for this. I mean,
I think the starting point is deeper than

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morality, the starting points and this
is all this is our starting point.

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I mean, so we're talking about
ethics and value judgments and then he just

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says, forget about morality. So
does he just does he actually sense that

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this is just gibberish nonsense. He
knows this deep down and it basically is

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now just talking around it. Well, let's just forget about morality and let's

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just talk about well being. What
is well being? I mean, again,

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this is what passes as intellectual public
discourse, all of us right now

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in the universe. The starting point
is we are conscious, right, we

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have a circumstance. We're conscious.
So his self evident starting point and if

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you watch his other podcast where they
discussed this, he believes in self evident

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maxims and principles. So his self
evident starting point is consciousness. Is he

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not aware that pretty much most of
modern atheistic materialist philosophy, of which he

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is a member, rejects or doesn't
have any answer to the question of consciousness.

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In other words, that's the central
issue is how can we explain or

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give an account for this mysterious thing
known as consciousness. It's really been kind

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of one of the central philosophical questions
for I don't know the least hundred years.

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And he says, well, let's
just start with consciousness. I can

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start. What is that on an
atheist materialist worldview? And by the way,

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are you a determinist? It's a
qualitative experience and he's sort of staring

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at his hands and making it up. It's consciousness is the starting point,

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which is qualitative experience. So consciousness
is experience just nonsense phrases, just nonsense

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words, right, Conscience consciousness can
be can be identical to experience because experience

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is something that a conscious mind has. The knower has the knowledge. That's

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like saying, uh, knowing is
knowledge. Knowing is an action of knowledge

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that a knower has a self.
So consciousness has to be had by some

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underlying what is called transcendental unity of
apperception. That's just cont fancy term for

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the self, something that is the
hare of the experiences, right, the

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self. But the question is where
or what is consciousness If you make the

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mind the brain, which of course
all the materialists do. That is the

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reductionist materialists move. Is precisely why
they're determinists, because the mind is simply

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the brain. There's no distinction between
the two. But you see all of

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the stupid quandaries and contradictions that he's
already caught in here Again, this is

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true. Whatever, however we understand
consciousness, whatever is actually happening. We

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could be living in a simulation.
This could be a dream. You could

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be a brain in a vat.
Consciousness could just be the product of neurochemistry,

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or we could have eternal souls running
on how integrated with the brain.

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Whatever is true, something seems to
be happening, and these seemings can be

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really really bad or really really good. We know each one of us in

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our lives have experienced this range of
possibility. And yes, there are caveats

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here. There are hard and painful
experiences that have a silver lining, right,

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that give you some other where you
could say, well, you know

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that really sucked, but I'm a
better person for it, right, and

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we can understand what it means to
be a better person for it in terms

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again of this range of experience,
which I you know, I'm calling subsuming

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all of this the positive end of
this as well being, which is to

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say that you know, I'm a
better person for it because now you know,

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having endured that ordeal, I am
capable of much greater compassion. Or

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I appreciate my life more. You
know, the cancer made me a better

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person. Now that I've I'm cured, I value each moment of life more

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than I ever did. All of
these claims are intelligible within a context of

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an open ended context of exploring this
space. Right, So it's not technically

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my discord anymore. I've gave it
away, but there's over ten thousand people

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in there, so I'm still in
there. But anyway, so I mean,

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hopefully we can get somewhere a bit
like we're just getting assertion after assertion.

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And again I don't think it's like
he doesn't really know what an argument

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is. It's just kind of like
maybe he thinks that you can't argue these

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types of things and you just kind
of have to make it up as you

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go. Right, Maybe that's his
view possible experience. So what I'm saying

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is forget about morality, forget about
right and wrong and good and evil.

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What is undeniable is that what we
have here is a navigation problem. We

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have a space of possible experience.
And again this is not just a human

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problem. This is a problem for
any possible conscious mind. We have a

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space, a possible experience in which
we can navigate, and we and things

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can get excruciating and pointlessly horrible where
there are no silver linings, and we

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get this. Can this can happen
individually in some episode of madness that never

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ends. If there really is a
Christian hell to go to, well then

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it can. It's going to happen
to me after I die, right,

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given what I've said on this day. Right, So this is just Descartes

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argument that consciousness is. You know, I think therefore I am, so

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most there's some seeming of happening occurring, So that is my self evident starting

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point, this raw seeming of occurring. But of course that doesn't actually work

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as an argument in the way that
descartt frames it, and subsequent people from

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Kant to bertrand Russell have severely critiqued
this notion of a self evident foundationalist starting

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point. And it's pretty easy to
critique it because remember, Descartes's idea is

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that I think therefore I am is
a great starting point because no one could

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doubt this. It's the most fundamental
thing that you couldn't theoretically doubt. However,

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Descartes was prior to the rise of
linguistic philosophy, and so Descartes didn't

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think to question linguistic structure because to
say that thinking is occurring, or thinking

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is it seems to be occurring,
or I think therefore I am assumes that

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the propositional value of sentences and that
words have meaning. That's a prior assumption

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to the idea that thinking is occurring. So because it's the phrase it self

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is an argument, right, So
it's assuming things that have not yet been

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proven. And if it's assuming things
that are not yet proven, then it

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is not self evident or foundational.
Because self evident beliefs have to be self

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evident, they have to be foundational. They can't rely on other beliefs or

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other things that are not yet proven. So Descartes project fails. Later other

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people critique it. The Russell says, it's a non sequitur, right because

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thinking is occurring. It doesn't follow
from that that the self exists, so

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it's a leap. Kant has a
very devastating critique when you say thinking is

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occurring or there's a happening. Happening
and occurring are time determinations. Time hasn't

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been demonstrated yet. So to say
that I think, therefore I am,

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and that thinking is happening or occurring
to occur is for something to happen within

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time. But has Descartes proven time
yet, or what do we have any

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idea what that is? No?
So what he's chosen as his enlightenment rationalist

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starting point, which by the way, contradicts his materialist determinism, because if

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the self is just a materially determined
thing, the self is not really any

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different than any other chemical reaction,
and so Essentially it's illusory. And the

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choices that the self makes between the
true and the false, the good and

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the bad, are also therefore illusory
because they're not really choices. They're merely

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determined. And so there's no way
in this determinist scheme to choose between the

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good and the bad or the true
of the false. There's just what is.

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But again, it's like he's never
conceived of these or no, it's

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like he's not even heard of these
very well known critiques that like, if

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you had an undergrad in philosophy,
you would be familiar with some of these

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00:29:08,119 --> 00:29:12,599
critiques, right, they're pretty well
known. But I think that because there's

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such an ignorance in terms of philosophy
and the history of thought in the West,

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that a lot of these kind of
people can get away with this.

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They can do a kind of intellectual
charlatanism and get away with this kind of

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stuff, either because they know people
are ignorant of the critiques, or they

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themselves are ignorant the critique. Either
way, it's just still kind of a

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very simplistic, low level discourse.
If I mean, let me put it

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this way, if you want to
understand from from a person who you know,

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study philosophy the grad school level,
and then here's stuff like this.

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This is basically the equivalent of conversations
that occur in your first or second philosophy

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court. Right, so if you
took philosophy one oh one and then philosophy

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one o two, you would be
having these kinds of conversations. And so

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this is what kind of the public
thinks of as deep, but it's not.

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It's really introductory level stuff matters who's
right. Obviously, if I knew

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that an eternity of fiery torment awaited
somebody who didn't make the right noises about

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one or one faith or another,
well then it would only be rational didn't

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make the right noises about what.
So in other words, our words are

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just random noises generated by a chemical
reaction machine. Well that's the case,

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then your arguments against Christianity or Theism
are also meaningless chemical reactions generated by the

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determined meat machine. So again it's
like no self awareness. I mean,

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none of these people. These people
would last like two minutes in a pre

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positional critique. And that's why,
you know, we showed that Mount Dillhoney

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debate. He lasted about ten minutes
before he just got mad and started just

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asserting arbitrary ad hoc statements over and
and over, and he thought that constituted

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an argument, And the whole discourse
was about fifteen feet above his head,

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and he never caught wind of it
until the after stream, when he had

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to bring in a couple of professors
to help him out and all to make

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those right noises right. So it's
it's my bet. I'm placing a bet

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on certain pictures of reality being wrong. But the reality is is we're navigating

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in this space, and morality and
ethics are the terms we use for how

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we think about our behavior affecting one
another's experience. Yes, Determined Meat Machine

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is my metal band exactly to God. Oh so, if you're in a

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moral solitude, if you're on a
desert island, or if you're on alone

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in the universe, morality is not
the issue you need to worry about.

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But well being still is an ever
present issue. It's possible to suffer,

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and it's possible to experience bliss,
and so why should we prefer bliss to

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suffering? And by the way,
I could I could take the same position

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and say that, well, I
prefer my own bliss to other people suffering,

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or perhaps I enjoy and achieve bliss
from causing other people to suffer.

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And quite a few people in the
world actually do believe that they are masochistic.

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They do enjoy hurting other people and
deceiving other people Douper's delight. This

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is a real thing. They enjoy
conning people. There's a thrill they get,

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and I mean it's well known.
Flannery O'Connor wrote a whole about it.

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Right Wise, Blood deals with deals
with that. Melville's novel Confidence Man

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deals with that. The novel is
about the thrill. It's in part it's

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about the thrill of this. Dostevski
knows from the underground. If the whole

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point is that if man's problem is
knowledge, a lack of knowledge, then

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why are their evil geniuses and why
are their evil psychopaths who get pleasure in

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hurting and destroying other people? And
so this idea that you can divorce well

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being from ethics is false, first
of all, And then that you could

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assume that there's a self evident ethic
that tells you that it's preferable for some

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reason to prefer pleasure to pain is
also arbitrary, But you see that basic

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level floundering and contradictions that these kinds
of positions are forced into. And a

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lot of it has to do with
rejecting philosophy, But at the end of

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the day, it's not about philosophy. It's about the fact that without theism

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trying to construct these metaphysical, these
these anti metaphysical metaphysical systems, they're doomed

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to failure. They don't work.
And perhaps something beyond that, and the

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horizon in both directions is something we
will will never fully expose explore. Very

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likely, we don't know how good
things can get, and we don't know

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how bad they can get, but
that there's a spectrum here is undeniable.

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And I would say that that my
moral realism simply entails that we acknowledge that

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it's possible not to know what you're
missing. It's possible to be living in

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a way where you are less happy
than you could be, and not to

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know why right, and to not
have the wisdom to make the changes.

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And that matters, If anything matters, That matters, and it matters to

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us individually, and it matters to
us collectively, And that mattering is our

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is that subsumes everything we can intelligibly
want in this domain of value. And

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that's and so again it's it's kind
the cache value of any value claim is

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00:35:27,599 --> 00:35:32,840
in the the actual or potential change
in consciousness for some conscious system somewhere sometimes.

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And that's that's my claim. And
that's can I can I try to

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get I would like you each to
clarify something. So it sounds to me,

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Sam like you are hypothesizing that a
rationalist approach will always beat a traditional

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metaphorical approach with respect to the generation
of well being. Well, well,

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not always, but another there's so
many the obvious downsides to the traditional sectarian

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dogmatic approach that we should want to
get out of the religion business as fast

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as possible. Okay, so okay, but as fast as possible. But

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do you mean that it has always
been true that we should always have gotten

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00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:19,400
away from it as fast as possible, or do you mean now we should

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00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,679
get away from it as fast as
possible. But there's a point somewhere in

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the past where it might have been
true that actually the best, the most,

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the richest path to well being might
have been encoded metaphorically. Oh yeah,

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that's that's certainly possible, and in
fact, you might even say it

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was likely based on the fact that
we have all of these systems still around.

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Right, So we still have the
systems around in part because are like

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still we still think in metaphor,
and we actually can't help it because half

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00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:51,960
of our brain is oriented towards metaphor. But can I get you to clarify

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something now? Yes? Okay,
so you have argued, and you've actually

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quite surprised me by doing so.
You've argued that the dogmatism is a bug

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and not a feature. You've argued, No, it's a bug and feature.

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Okay, it's a bug and a
feature. Good. So, yes,

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But what what I thought I heard
you say was that the resistance to

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update was a problem, that effectively
it was an obstacle. Yeah, so

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is lack of resistance to update.
Okay, there's problems everywhere. Man,

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Well it's there's a tension. There
is a tension. There's a terrible tension.

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Right. Well, most new ideas
are stupid and dangerous, but most

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00:37:34,079 --> 00:37:36,960
a little bit of Boomer Garcia coming
out there, right, I need to

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00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:42,360
make Boomer Garcia into a character because
he Jordan channeled a little bit of Boomer

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00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:49,519
Garcia problems there, some of them
are vital, right, and so we

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00:37:49,639 --> 00:37:52,039
have we're screwed both ways. It's
like, well, if we stay locked

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00:37:52,039 --> 00:37:55,880
in our current mode of apprehension,
all hell is going to break loose.

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If we generate a whole bunch of
new solutions, most of them are going

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00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:01,440
to be wrong and going to die. And so what we need to do

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00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:06,599
is, well, it's a Darwinian
claim in some sense, is that despite

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the fact that most new ideas are
stupid and dangerous, a subset of them

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are so vital that if we don't
incorporate them, we're all going to perish.

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That's the bloody existential condition. And
so now and part of the issue

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here and see, and I think
somebody made an interesting point that this whole

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00:38:22,519 --> 00:38:30,760
discussion is really a controlled magic circle
dialectic because Jordan Peterson is an agnostic and

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00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:40,000
what's his face, scam Harris is
an atheist. So you're forced to then

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00:38:40,079 --> 00:38:46,079
choose the sides between to ridiculous positions, right. I thought that was a

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00:38:46,159 --> 00:38:52,000
good insight here, that so we're
supposed to now look to agnostics to make

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00:38:52,199 --> 00:38:59,400
arguments for theism. Again, I'm
just unbaffled. As to what's going on.

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This is it's it's like people,
I don't know. I guess people

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00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:09,760
just don't have any clue what's going
It's just people are ignorant. I guess

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00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:16,719
there's just mass insane levels of ignorance. The dysgenics has worked. The population

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00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:22,760
has become a bunch of slow boys, and so the people with the medium

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00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:29,719
level IQ, like Luke Wilson in
Idiocracy are like, you know, this

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00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:36,559
is what they think is like the
height of sophistication is a moral relativist having

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00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:44,480
an atheist moral relativists arguing with a
psycho theology agnostic and this is like the

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00:39:45,039 --> 00:39:51,719
this is the hype of intellectual sophistication. That the problem is is that let's

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00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,679
take the dogma idea. Okay,
so there's the dogma incorporated in the books,

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00:39:54,679 --> 00:39:58,159
but I'm going to throw away the
books because the dogma was there before

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00:39:58,199 --> 00:40:05,559
the books. And then the question
is where was the So I think Jordan's

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talking about there was theological teachings orally, I guess before they were written down.

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I guess is what he means.
Okay, I can agree with that,

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but of course I don't think he
ever really explains what that is,

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and in his mind, you know, rabbinical Judaism today is the same as

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00:40:24,679 --> 00:40:30,800
you know, Genesis or whatever,
which is not the case because even today's

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00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:38,039
liberal Jewish scholars admit that the part
departure of Christianity and Judaism in the first

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00:40:38,079 --> 00:40:44,559
and second third century really marks off
where Judaism goes in the direction of being

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00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:49,920
most strictly rabbinical, and then you
get the strict unitarianism. I mean,

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00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:54,000
it had unitarian elements prior to that, but confessionally theologically, by the time

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00:40:54,039 --> 00:41:00,119
of Mima Idies it gets explicitly unitarian
in a philosophical sense. And so it's

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00:41:00,159 --> 00:41:04,039
not until second or third century,
I think, right that you have the

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00:41:04,119 --> 00:41:13,199
rejection of the two powers three powers
in heaven and explicitly in anti Christian polemic

355
00:41:15,679 --> 00:41:17,320
and so, but I think that
if you don't know that, then you

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00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:22,639
kind of default to the natural theology
perspective, which is kind of where Jordan

357
00:41:22,679 --> 00:41:30,719
Peterson is at. And so he's
kind of making these generic theist arguments like,

358
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:37,079
you know, well, the ancient
route right prior to Christianity, prior

359
00:41:37,119 --> 00:41:45,519
to Islam, must be this judaic
unitarian generic theism. But if you go

360
00:41:45,599 --> 00:41:49,039
and watch the debate with Trent Horne. We showed how ridiculous this is from

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00:41:49,079 --> 00:41:54,599
the Christian perspective to think that the
Old Testament is this strict Unitarian deity and

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then in the New Testament we tack
on to trinity as this new idea.

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I mean, that is so far
from what's actually in the Old Testament that

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it's really revolutionary. And people are
so ignorant and this is so mind blowing

365
00:42:10,639 --> 00:42:15,239
to them that when you try to
show the Old Testament teaching the Trinity,

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00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:19,400
this really like they can't handle this. Like people are just their minds blown

367
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:22,800
at this. I'm just think of
the Daniel Kikachu debate, right, like

368
00:42:23,039 --> 00:42:25,519
when I started going through all these
texts, He's like, oh, well

369
00:42:25,559 --> 00:42:30,760
all of those are corrupted, right, So he wasn't even aware because he

370
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:34,960
doesn't know anything about the Old Testament. He wasn't even aware of how extensive

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00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:37,599
right the Trinity is in the Old
Testament. But you can see that Jordan's

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00:42:37,639 --> 00:42:42,239
whole approach here, And I'm not
faulting him for having this approach because it's

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everywhere. This is what everybody just
assumes and thinks. I mean, even

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I thought this for a long time, right, I thought for a long

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00:42:49,599 --> 00:42:52,039
time, Well, I mean,
the Trinity is that's not really an Old

376
00:42:52,079 --> 00:42:54,400
Testament thing. And I was a
person that read the Old Testament a lot

377
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:00,360
because I was in you know,
Calvinist circle, and Calvinis circles tend to

378
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:05,960
like the Old Testament a lot.
But this is why this is so wrong

379
00:43:06,119 --> 00:43:08,840
headed, is that if you come
to the Old Testament thinking of it as

380
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:21,000
a rabbinical Judaic text about Unitarianism,
then you're gonna end up with natural theology

381
00:43:21,559 --> 00:43:27,800
allah, what the Vatican's Abu Dhabi
Faith Center promotes and what Nostretate promotes,

382
00:43:29,039 --> 00:43:30,840
and you're gonna think, well,
all the monotheistic faiths are a brandmic.

383
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:35,400
They all teach the same thing.
Right, But do you see how wrong

384
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:39,239
headed all this is. No,
No, you've got the wrong reading of

385
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:46,320
the texts. The Old Testament is
replete. I'm gonna have to just do

386
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:50,880
a whole new lecture because the lecture
that I did five four or five years

387
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:54,800
ago is is pretty good, and
it was a three hours of going through

388
00:43:54,840 --> 00:44:01,920
Old Testament texts with the Trinity.
But since that time, and especially since

389
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:07,800
they're reading a bunch of the Jewish
scholars for the Hikikachu debate, there's all

390
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:10,480
these other ones I missed. I
mean, the Old Testament's gigantic, right,

391
00:44:10,519 --> 00:44:14,920
I mean it's a lot of texts, and I've been reading it for

392
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:20,360
I mean, not just the Old
test the Bible as a whole since nineteen

393
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:25,119
ninety eight, so I've put a
lot of time in reading it, and

394
00:44:25,519 --> 00:44:30,559
even I miss stuff. Right.
The Bible is the amazing, mysterious book

395
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:37,239
like that where you can read it
and always see new things anyway, So

396
00:44:37,159 --> 00:44:42,400
it's just I have to comment on
this whole idea that another element of this

397
00:44:42,599 --> 00:44:49,199
debate that's missed is the assumption that
when we say the word God, well

398
00:44:49,199 --> 00:44:53,639
we're all talking about the same thing. We all believe in God. And

399
00:44:53,719 --> 00:45:00,440
then there's these other kind of controversial
figures like Jesus and Jesus over here,

400
00:45:00,599 --> 00:45:04,440
like Muhammed, right, But prior
to Jesus and Mohammed, there was this,

401
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:07,880
there was just this God. Right. But if you read the Book

402
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:13,599
of John, how does Jesus consistently
argue throughout the Book of John, especially

403
00:45:13,679 --> 00:45:17,239
from John Flive to John nine,
the Old Old Testament is about him?

404
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:25,000
So do you see what's missing here
in the natural theology elements. Here it

405
00:45:25,119 --> 00:45:30,360
was in the cultural practices and in
the agreement that people made with regards to

406
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:35,440
those cultural practices, but it was
also part and parcel of the intra psychic

407
00:45:35,519 --> 00:45:40,239
structure that enables us to perceive the
world as such. Nope. Yeah,

408
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:44,599
So every time I bring this up, Catholics tell me that the Old Testament

409
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:49,280
has signs and traces of the training. I'm well aware of that. That's

410
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:53,159
not my point. My point is
that the Roman Catholic approach, especially with

411
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:59,119
Thomas Aquinas, is that the Old
Testament teaches Unitarianism, and then the New

412
00:45:59,199 --> 00:46:01,519
Testament is what opens us up to
the deedy of Christ and the Trinity.

413
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:09,639
And that is contrary to what you
find in especially the Church Father's polemics and

414
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:15,599
apologetics. When Justin debates with Tripho, he's constantly trying to show the Trinity

415
00:46:15,639 --> 00:46:22,519
in the Old Testament. Does he
do the Thomas Aquinas approach of saying that

416
00:46:22,559 --> 00:46:30,719
the Old Testament teaches a Unitarian God. No. So every time I say

417
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:35,880
this, Roman Catholics tell me the
Catechism says the Old Testament teaches Trinity.

418
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:39,360
I know that. My point is
that your doctrines contradict, not that you

419
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:46,079
don't sometimes say good stuff or true
things. So it can't both. It

420
00:46:46,159 --> 00:46:50,840
can't be the case that the Old
Testament teaches generic unitarianism and that it teaches

421
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:52,639
the Trinity. You understand those both
can't be true at the same time.

422
00:46:55,599 --> 00:47:00,679
The problem is, and I think
this is the central place where we need

423
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:04,239
to flesh out these ideas, is
that you cannot view the world without an

424
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:08,880
a priori structure, and that a
priori structure has a dogmassage elements categories.

425
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:15,480
So now Jordan has gone from the
dogmatic ideas. What I thought we were

426
00:47:15,519 --> 00:47:22,199
talking about Genesis and recorded dogmas,
and now Jordan Pearson's saying that philosophical categories,

427
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:27,559
aerosols categories, transfil categories is essentially
what he means. And he just

428
00:47:27,639 --> 00:47:31,639
psychologizes, and he's saying they're dogmas, and he's in a sense he's right

429
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:38,119
because they're presuppositions. They're not they're
not empirically demonstrable. You can't empirically demonstrate

430
00:47:38,199 --> 00:47:45,320
aerosols categories, which is true,
hence why we call them transcendental categories transcendental

431
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:50,440
arguments. So he's right here,
and he's this is the dog This is

432
00:47:50,519 --> 00:47:57,360
the dogmas that he's referring to.
I wouldn't call them dogmas, but I

433
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:02,840
think I mean, for us,
dogmas refer to specific theological doctrines like the

434
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:09,000
Trinity or the incarnation. But what
he means here is correct. Just say,

435
00:48:09,039 --> 00:48:12,159
well, let's get rid of the
dog one. Because you can't perceive

436
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:16,320
the world with a structure. It
has an uninspected element. So notice that's

437
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:20,679
Kantian, right, And now I
don't It's not that I disagree with the

438
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:25,880
phrase that you can't perceive the world
without this presubsitional structure categories. But we

439
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:31,719
are not Kantians in that we make
that whole structure mental. It is not

440
00:48:32,079 --> 00:48:37,840
the mind that structures the external world. The mind learns the structure of the

441
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:42,920
external world and has a structure in
its own internal world. So structure is

442
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:46,920
not a feature that's purely mental or
psychological. It is an external structure and

443
00:48:47,079 --> 00:48:52,039
an internal structure, you see.
And so I just don't find I do

444
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:57,920
find the apologetic value in pointing out
that there has to be structure, and

445
00:48:58,039 --> 00:49:00,800
you can argue from the internal struct
sure if you wanted to. But if

446
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:06,440
you if you make this content such
that the structure is only mental. You're

447
00:49:06,519 --> 00:49:08,800
not a Christian anymore, and you
might as well be a syllipsist. That's

448
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:15,800
the because that's where that goes.
That's where Kant's position leads to. See,

449
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:20,199
if you're talking about just perceiving the
world, yes, we have a

450
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:23,360
we have perceptual structure that allows for
us to perceive the world, and we

451
00:49:23,559 --> 00:49:30,519
know that there are failures. Oh
way, sam is perceptual structure physical?

452
00:49:31,519 --> 00:49:39,159
Okay, So because perception is the
mind's apprehension, I think even Descartes right

453
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:45,519
uses that terminology of objects in the
world. The mind's apprehension of an object

454
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:52,840
is not physical matter. Plus an
an apprehension or a perception involves a degree

455
00:49:53,000 --> 00:50:04,039
of active interpretation of the objects,
and you can't reduce active interpretations of objects

456
00:50:04,159 --> 00:50:09,960
to brain to gray matter. So
he's actually again shooting his position. He's

457
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:13,480
shooting himself in the foot. We
we know, for instance, that we

458
00:50:13,559 --> 00:50:20,840
are we are. We've evolved to
perceive in visual space based on a literally

459
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:24,079
neurological expectation that light sources will be
from above, right, and so we

460
00:50:24,199 --> 00:50:29,920
know that we can produce visual illusions
based on gaming that expectation. Right,

461
00:50:30,199 --> 00:50:38,480
But that's not the same thing as
a dogma subscribe to some subset of humanity

462
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:44,639
that is antithetical to another dogma subscribed
to by another set of humanity that has

463
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:49,679
nothing to do with underlying biol So
this is kind of interesting because Sam Harris

464
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:55,400
is saying that our perceptual framework isn't
the same thing as religious dogma, which

465
00:50:55,519 --> 00:51:00,760
is true. But Peterson is making
the point that just as much as you

466
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:09,719
can't prove in an empirical way you
know something that you're calling God or theology,

467
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:15,000
you also can't prove these categories,
which is true, but I don't

468
00:51:15,039 --> 00:51:17,960
think Sam Harris gets that. Oology, that's something that's that's changeable, but

469
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:23,000
it's changeable in real time based on
just conversations like this, you know,

470
00:51:23,199 --> 00:51:25,960
we could have, and this is
why it's it's interesting. So if you

471
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:30,239
want to see an easy example of
where this is like a really simple level

472
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:36,280
conversation and it's not very advanced,
this is where transcendental argumentation would come into

473
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:44,079
play. Because transcendental argumentation is concerned
with proving things that are not physical in

474
00:51:44,159 --> 00:51:47,480
a different way, and clearly different
things are proven in different ways. The

475
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:52,000
way that I would go about proving
whether my wife loves me, or whether

476
00:51:52,039 --> 00:51:59,320
there's uh, you know, abstract
objects like you know, Mandelbrot sets or

477
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:02,000
something. It's not the same way
that I go about proving whether there's crackers

478
00:52:02,039 --> 00:52:07,079
in the pantry. So not everything
is proven in the same way. And

479
00:52:07,159 --> 00:52:09,840
so the way that we're going to
go about proving things like immaterial invariant objects,

480
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:13,079
it's not gonna be the same as
the way that we go about proving

481
00:52:13,119 --> 00:52:20,920
physical objects. And so this whole
conversation right here could get up leveled,

482
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:28,840
to use Sam Harris's bizarre phrase,
up leveled by understanding that pretty maybe that's

483
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:31,280
not a basic philosophy, that's more
of like a mid level philosophical point.

484
00:52:32,159 --> 00:52:37,639
I get emails from people who can
point to the paragraph where they lost their

485
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:43,559
faith right where you're reading somebody in
reading Richard Dawkins, or hearing a debate

486
00:52:43,679 --> 00:52:50,800
between between me and some theologian,
where it's just a collision against rationality,

487
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:54,719
which is so useful in every other
kind. I know, I have to

488
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:58,920
keep pausing this, and it's kind
of annoying. It's even annoying me to

489
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:01,920
pause it this much. It's just
like this drives me nuts all the thing,

490
00:53:02,039 --> 00:53:07,760
the assertions just flying out drive me
crazy because it's like he doesn't understand

491
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:13,079
how much of what he's saying is
absolutely inconsistent with his own presubsitions and his

492
00:53:13,199 --> 00:53:16,039
own worldview, right, and so
what did he just say? It was

493
00:53:16,159 --> 00:53:21,199
just drive me crazy. I get
emails from this, Oh reason, He's

494
00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:25,239
like, oh, you know,
I finally saw reading Richard Dawkins as somebody

495
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:32,480
emailing him that my religious beliefs are
contrary to reason. Interesting, So now

496
00:53:32,519 --> 00:53:36,880
we're going to go to the court
of appeal of reason, which, okay,

497
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:40,280
let's do that. And if you
saw, we had that TikTok goober,

498
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:45,320
the Mormon TikTok guy did this exact
same thing, right, which was

499
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:49,320
an agnostic Mormon whatever that is.
And he was like, I just go

500
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:52,360
to the court of a peal of
reasoning. And I'm like, okay,

501
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:53,639
I'll grant you that. Let's go
to the court a peal of reasoning.

502
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:59,280
First of all, give me an
account of what reason is. And his

503
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:01,719
response was, let's go to the
New Testament and I'll show you the problems.

504
00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:05,079
I was like, no, wait
a minute, I'm gonna grant you

505
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:07,400
for the sake of argument that let's
say the New Testament's false. Okay,

506
00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:10,920
fine, it's full of errors.
Blah blah blah. What is your account

507
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:14,920
for reason? Because that's the for
you now, according to you, the

508
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:21,119
final court of appeal? Right,
can you give me an account or an

509
00:54:21,159 --> 00:54:25,159
explanation for what reasoning is? Uh? What does that even mean? Right?

510
00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:29,880
This total douchebag guy? Right,
what does that even mean? You

511
00:54:30,039 --> 00:54:35,159
tell me, because you're the one
that's appealing to this as what you call

512
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:37,599
the you know they're calling it the
final court of appeal here? Okay,

513
00:54:37,679 --> 00:54:40,920
So what is reason? If I
if I'm going to not believe in a

514
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:46,320
deity and theism and all that,
and you want me to accept that there

515
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:53,880
is this principle of rationality and reasoning, then I want an account for that

516
00:54:54,199 --> 00:54:58,079
because you're telling me not to believe
in things that I can't see, touch

517
00:54:58,119 --> 00:55:05,039
and feel because it's flying spaghetti monster
superstition. Well, then guess what reasoning

518
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:12,400
and universal reason is also in that
exact same category of superstition. Unless you

519
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:17,400
can give me some consistent, coherent
account and grounding for reasoning. People who

520
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:23,360
can point to the paragraph where they
lost their faith? Right where in reading

521
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:30,159
somebody in reading Richard Dawkins or hearing
a debate between between me and some theologian

522
00:55:30,199 --> 00:55:36,440
where it's just a collision against rationality, which is so useful in every other

523
00:55:36,519 --> 00:55:40,039
context, suddenly proves its utility in
this context where they think, well,

524
00:55:40,039 --> 00:55:44,679
okay, clearly, I know the
Muslims are wrong about the status of the

525
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:50,400
Qur'an. Let me let me take
that that spirit of criticism in the internal

526
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:55,039
space of my own culture, and
what moves, well, a dogmatic attachment

527
00:55:55,079 --> 00:55:59,400
to Christianity has to move by that
same standard. Well, and that's and

528
00:55:59,679 --> 00:56:01,280
it's possible to do that, and
that's not a matter of getting into the

529
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:07,360
brain and changing your perceptual apparatus.
That has been well, the distinction between

530
00:56:07,519 --> 00:56:13,199
different levels of what would you call
it structure related processing in the brain and

531
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:16,440
the relationship to the underlying biology isn't
clear, like and it isn't clear when

532
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:22,760
that's biological and when is it when
it isn't. So you know your comments

533
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:27,239
about our a priori perceptual structures.
Notwithstanding, there's no clear line between what

534
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:32,199
constitutes an instantiated, accurate biological perception
and something that shades more into a cultural

535
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:38,119
presupposition. So it's a gray area
now here let me ask you questions.

536
00:56:38,519 --> 00:56:43,639
So notice that he was afraid to
go down the route of actually saying that

537
00:56:44,559 --> 00:56:51,920
these categories are actually in some way
existing realities and real structures. So he

538
00:56:52,039 --> 00:56:58,840
didn't want to address the biological approach
of Harris there by just saying, oh,

539
00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:01,760
well, it's all biological, right. He didn't want to admit that.

540
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:07,920
But he also didn't want to say
that the structures that we have for

541
00:57:08,079 --> 00:57:13,039
perceiving the world in our mind or
whatever. You also didn't want to give

542
00:57:13,039 --> 00:57:15,519
them onto logical existence, right,
because then he's in the domain of metaphysics

543
00:57:15,559 --> 00:57:19,280
again, and that's not where he
wants to go. But you see how

544
00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:22,840
weak this is when at every point, and this is another critique I have

545
00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:27,800
of Peterson is that it's the same
with the Matt Dolhundy debate, where there's

546
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:30,320
a point where he almost gets to
making the transcendental argument and then he just

547
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:34,960
backs off and just doesn't do it. And it's like, you could seize

548
00:57:35,039 --> 00:57:40,360
the moment and make these ridiculous positions
look ridiculous, and instead he just sort

549
00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:45,719
of backs off and again in agnostic
fashion, and doesn't make the argument like

550
00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:50,360
you could. So by the way. I want to remind you guys too.

551
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:52,519
If you want to support the show, you can please do so via

552
00:57:52,599 --> 00:57:55,719
superchats. The superchat function is in
the chat right there. Use stream labs

553
00:57:55,760 --> 00:58:00,159
to send a superchat and I will
answer your question or your super chat as

554
00:58:00,239 --> 00:58:05,199
we move on. There is the
link right there at through stream labs,

555
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:08,480
and I will be giving priority to
those. So if you just put something

556
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:10,239
in the chat, I'm not going
to answer it, but if you give

557
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:15,039
me a stream stream stream Lab super
chat, I will. This is one

558
00:58:15,039 --> 00:58:19,920
of the things I've been thinking about. So this is this is designed to

559
00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:23,239
point out the difference. I'm not
making the claim that the idea that we

560
00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:28,159
should ground values in facts is wrong. I'm not going to make that claim,

561
00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:30,239
although I think it's way more complicated
than we've opened up so far.

562
00:58:31,159 --> 00:58:36,800
But I would say is I can
I think relatively easily demonstrate a situation in

563
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:39,639
which you cannot find the value from
the facts. So let's say you own

564
00:58:39,639 --> 00:58:45,760
an antique it's valuable, and you
think I'm going to take this antique apart

565
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:49,480
and I'm going to find out where
the value is. Good luck man,

566
00:58:49,559 --> 00:58:52,800
Well it's not valuable in that sense. Well wait, a second, Wait

567
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:54,239
a second, So we need to
know. So that's right, It's not

568
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:59,440
valuable in that sense because the value
of the antique is a social agreement about

569
00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:01,000
its position, and in a hierarchy, it has nothing to do with the

570
00:59:01,039 --> 00:59:05,800
material substrate of the antique. For
sure. Yeah, but but not you

571
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:08,559
count. It's not just sure.
It's like you are You've made the claim

572
00:59:08,599 --> 00:59:12,519
already that you can derive values from
facts. It's like, then, what

573
00:59:12,599 --> 00:59:15,639
are you willing to do these facts? These are facts about again, so

574
00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:20,280
there are facts about the facts exist
in intersubjective space. Right, So if

575
00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:22,840
I if I tell you, well, this glass, this isn't just an

576
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:24,679
ordinary glass. I know it looks
just like that one, but this is

577
00:59:24,719 --> 00:59:30,719
the glass that Elton John drank from
his last constant here. Yeah, right,

578
00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:32,559
right, so you know what do
you want to pay me for it?

579
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:38,480
Right? Right? Hold me closer, tiny sami, count the headlights

580
00:59:38,519 --> 00:59:44,360
on atheist Highway. I don't even
I don't even know the rest of that.

581
00:59:44,519 --> 00:59:49,519
What's the rest of the lyrics of
that? Hold me closer, tiny

582
00:59:49,679 --> 00:59:59,239
hair is count the headlights on the
high We're Jordan Peterson's got a bad I

583
00:59:59,239 --> 01:00:04,719
don't know where anyway, how's the
lyrics go. I'm trying to I'm trying

584
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:07,440
to fit it in with atheist lyrics, but I don't know. It could

585
01:00:07,559 --> 01:00:10,679
be that, you know, you're
just the biggest Elton john fan ever and

586
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:15,639
you it's a lot to you.
That was actually a pretty good underhanded burn.

587
01:00:17,199 --> 01:00:21,599
I had to give Sam a point
for that, for that was kind

588
01:00:21,599 --> 01:00:29,320
of a cool reverse Elton John Negg
there against Jordan Peterson. I actually like

589
01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:35,159
that. That is it's a kind
of efinet. It's not value intrinsic to

590
01:00:35,239 --> 01:00:37,840
the glass, but it is.
It is. It is a where he

591
01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:42,280
could be. It could be he
could have got some of his gay vibes

592
01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:47,280
on the glass, which would then
make it, you know, gay valuable.

593
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:53,639
So I mean, remember everything is
reducible to matter, and so the

594
01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:59,960
gay is just different matter, different
molecules, gay gay molecules, gay map.

595
01:01:00,519 --> 01:01:02,719
Right, you thought you had a
bunch of gray matter in your head.

596
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:06,480
No, you've got gay matter up
there. That's actually a pretty good

597
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:13,400
Sam Harris argument. I like it, right, hold me closer, gay

598
01:01:13,599 --> 01:01:22,480
molecules. And now that doesn't work
homecaus a tiny dance can the dead lights

599
01:01:22,559 --> 01:01:31,119
on the highway? Gay matter the
measure in the change this provokes in your

600
01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:35,239
experience. Right, just the idea. I mean, we value ideas as

601
01:01:35,320 --> 01:01:38,000
much as anything else. And that's
you know, that's hence the mad work

602
01:01:38,119 --> 01:01:42,519
done by religion, right, I
mean, because it's not These aren't facts

603
01:01:42,559 --> 01:01:45,760
on the ground. These are ideas
that rule people's lives. I mean people

604
01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:49,719
spend their whole life afraid of health. Okay, it seems to me that

605
01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:53,559
it's easier in some sense rather than
to relate the value of that. And

606
01:01:53,719 --> 01:01:58,119
I love the Elton Jones class example. I was going to use Elvis Presley

607
01:01:58,360 --> 01:02:00,800
here. I will tell you it's
like wearing the guitar. Is the fact

608
01:02:00,800 --> 01:02:05,440
that it's Elvis Presidents like wearing the
guitars the game. You know, It's

609
01:02:05,519 --> 01:02:08,679
like wearing the glasses the gay molecules. You know, It's like it's like,

610
01:02:08,760 --> 01:02:15,079
where's this buckle? Right? Clean
the condensation up the gay cup buckle?

611
01:02:15,719 --> 01:02:17,360
Well, what is it in?
Where is it that? And the

612
01:02:17,480 --> 01:02:22,320
answer is it's in the dominance hierarchy
of values that's been socially constructed around the

613
01:02:22,360 --> 01:02:29,079
guitar. It's located in interpersonal space. And that hold me closer. Tony

614
01:02:29,239 --> 01:02:36,280
Dan's uh, count the headlights count
the molecules on my time of stash.

615
01:02:37,719 --> 01:02:46,639
How many molecules make up tiny mustache
man's tiny stash? Am I know thirty

616
01:02:46,679 --> 01:02:51,920
five molecules? Are they? Are
they gay molecules? Who even knows?

617
01:02:52,079 --> 01:02:55,039
Do we know that location? So
value is located in interpersonal space? And

618
01:02:55,119 --> 01:02:58,280
if you want to say, well, that's also a fact, it's like,

619
01:02:58,400 --> 01:03:02,960
okay. But the fact about the
beliefs and desires and conscious states of

620
01:03:04,119 --> 01:03:07,920
all the people. Somebody said,
does Elton place where it exists? Somebody

621
01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:15,000
said that Elton John have h I
V no Elton John got the vi P

622
01:03:15,280 --> 01:03:19,599
posse? Y'all know what the va
y'all are too young. This audience don't

623
01:03:19,599 --> 01:03:23,159
even know about the vi P posse. Kick it yr vi I P kick

624
01:03:23,239 --> 01:03:31,800
it the idea of Elvis's depark.
And you see, because what seems to

625
01:03:31,880 --> 01:03:36,280
me to be happening, at least
in part, is that we can stretch

626
01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:40,119
the the domain of what constitutes a
fact so that the domain of facts starts

627
01:03:40,159 --> 01:03:45,039
to incorporate the domain of values.
But we do that with some doing some

628
01:03:45,239 --> 01:03:50,880
damage to the domain of facts.
Hang on, y'all, y'all in the

629
01:03:50,960 --> 01:03:54,000
chat, y'all make up my VI
P posse, y'all, the h I

630
01:03:54,119 --> 01:04:00,639
V I P posse, Hi I
P posse kick it. That's that's that's

631
01:04:00,760 --> 01:04:05,320
you, me, Jordan Peterson and
Elton John making up the hi V I

632
01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:15,760
P posse Ninja Ninja rat ninja ninja
rat. Y'all even know. Y'all don't

633
01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:20,239
even know. Y'all don't even know
what I'm referring to, because y'all have

634
01:04:20,280 --> 01:04:25,480
a bunch of kids up and now
y'all a bunch of kids. Y'all have

635
01:04:25,480 --> 01:04:29,239
a bunch of kids about. It's
about to be your bedtime. Oh you

636
01:04:29,400 --> 01:04:32,480
about to hit curfew because y'all have
a bunch of kids. Don't even know

637
01:04:32,519 --> 01:04:39,840
what the VIP posse was. That
was one of my first tapes. Dog,

638
01:04:42,679 --> 01:04:45,920
I got that VI P posse right
away when it came out, when

639
01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:51,599
it hit the freaking tape decks,
when it hit the stores, all was

640
01:04:51,679 --> 01:05:01,079
over there. I was up in
Target the day it came out, Yes,

641
01:05:02,039 --> 01:05:06,519
exactly, Halo Kills knows what's up. I was up in Target the

642
01:05:06,599 --> 01:05:13,360
day it came out, eating a
bunch of slushies, getting diarrhea, corn

643
01:05:13,480 --> 01:05:15,760
dogs waiting for it. Boom it
pops up. I go over there,

644
01:05:15,840 --> 01:05:18,159
get it it's got that big old, stupid white thing and I can't even

645
01:05:18,159 --> 01:05:24,440
get it out of there. I
was all about some Vanilla's boy. He

646
01:05:24,639 --> 01:05:29,400
was my favorite. Do y'all remember
that one song that he had where he

647
01:05:29,599 --> 01:05:34,719
sang the love song because I love
you, Dodo girl. Every time I

648
01:05:34,840 --> 01:05:40,360
see you, you look so fine. Remember that I want to whine and

649
01:05:40,519 --> 01:05:45,119
die. Of course I love you. Do you had a first CD.

650
01:05:45,360 --> 01:05:50,119
Now this is the first tape,
boy. Actually my first tape was biz

651
01:05:50,239 --> 01:05:59,360
Marky picking boogers for real. I'm
so in love girl, girl. You

652
01:05:59,639 --> 01:06:04,960
know too? Ooh ooh ooh,
I love you. Yes, you know

653
01:06:05,199 --> 01:06:12,000
it too, ooh ooh ooh,
I love you. People are like he

654
01:06:12,079 --> 01:06:15,559
can whoa, he can actually sing
due anyway, we just lost twenty people.

655
01:06:16,239 --> 01:06:26,719
Twenty people lost. Kay, don't
say don't just say no, it's

656
01:06:26,800 --> 01:06:30,280
no. This is really more.
This is really complicated because you see,

657
01:06:30,519 --> 01:06:34,280
part of what the postmodernists have done
is that they've pushed away the domain of

658
01:06:34,360 --> 01:06:38,519
facts entirely. And they say,
well, the only thing is is that

659
01:06:38,760 --> 01:06:42,920
the only thing that actually exists is
that this domain of intersubjective agreement, and

660
01:06:43,119 --> 01:06:45,039
and they know, yeah, you
and I are on the same page with

661
01:06:45,119 --> 01:06:47,800
respect to postmodernisms. Right, but
but but you have to give, but

662
01:06:47,920 --> 01:06:51,679
you have to give it, you
have to give. Well, were they

663
01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:59,119
cheering postmodernism? This audience, man, this audience is ridiculous. This audience

664
01:06:59,239 --> 01:07:01,840
is as funny as all this sudden. I did have to give Sam Harris

665
01:07:01,920 --> 01:07:05,840
a point though. That Elton John
underhanded joke was pretty good. That was.

666
01:07:06,199 --> 01:07:12,360
I like that. That was I'm
impressed with that underhanded nag over there

667
01:07:12,440 --> 01:07:17,360
to JBP you and that JBP posse
kick it Doom doom doom to do doom

668
01:07:17,440 --> 01:07:23,079
doom, y'all. Remember my Jordan
Peterson rap song I did that live,

669
01:07:23,159 --> 01:07:29,440
by the way, Jordan Peterson my
freestyle, I did that live in LA.

670
01:07:29,480 --> 01:07:33,159
I think that's the one I messed
up on. I did a I

671
01:07:33,280 --> 01:07:45,440
did five songs live perform visual performance
in La audio visual music performance live exactly.

672
01:07:45,639 --> 01:07:47,719
They pointed out something, and what
they pointed out is that it's not

673
01:07:47,840 --> 01:07:53,599
so easy to localize the structure that
attributes to facts their value. It's not

674
01:07:53,719 --> 01:07:59,320
a simple thing that Wait, yes, you would surely agree that if we

675
01:07:59,440 --> 01:08:05,000
had a Presley's guitar, that that
guitar would have a material impact on people.

676
01:08:05,119 --> 01:08:09,440
We could tell them this is Elvis
Presley's guitar. Some fraction of them

677
01:08:09,440 --> 01:08:12,840
would disbelieve it. Somebody might be
able to establish it based on a picture

678
01:08:12,960 --> 01:08:16,000
or something like that. And the
point is it would have a value that

679
01:08:16,239 --> 01:08:21,279
would alter the behavior of people with
respect to that object in a material way.

680
01:08:21,760 --> 01:08:25,359
Yes, it would alter the behavior
of the piece. Value can also

681
01:08:25,760 --> 01:08:30,000
manifest in physical space, which part
of it the behavior detective We could figure

682
01:08:30,039 --> 01:08:32,960
out what the value of this guitar
is. So like earlier, remember how

683
01:08:33,000 --> 01:08:40,119
their minds were blown over the question
of delayed gratification and saving up to have

684
01:08:40,359 --> 01:08:46,039
something later, and the whole crowd
was whoa bond? Blown bro? Now

685
01:08:46,119 --> 01:08:51,760
their minds are blown over the idea
of some objects having value as a social

686
01:08:53,920 --> 01:08:57,760
currency, right only because this is
what we just call it an artifact,

687
01:08:57,880 --> 01:09:02,319
Right because so it's an artifact has
value because people see it as having value,

688
01:09:02,920 --> 01:09:05,960
and minds are blown. Well,
but I don't see what this has

689
01:09:06,000 --> 01:09:13,119
to do with the question of categories
of perception, right who brought up Was

690
01:09:13,159 --> 01:09:18,279
it Peterson or Harris that brought up
this Elton John Gay juiced glass or whatever

691
01:09:18,319 --> 01:09:21,199
they're trying to talk about on some
intersections, Sure, we could take a

692
01:09:21,239 --> 01:09:25,079
behaviorist approach and we could see how
much work people were willing to do to

693
01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:29,239
we can we can scan their brains
and see what it is. Well,

694
01:09:29,399 --> 01:09:32,439
I'm not so sure we can do
that. Well, well, clearly hypothetically

695
01:09:32,560 --> 01:09:36,079
we can do it, but practically
we're not so good at because the EMRID

696
01:09:36,159 --> 01:09:40,560
data generally speaking is junk. Well
we we we can table that. Well,

697
01:09:40,960 --> 01:09:45,119
look, it's it's it's controversial statement
in MRI circles. It's yeah,

698
01:09:46,079 --> 01:09:48,319
fair, I don't think we need
it. We don't need it, but

699
01:09:48,399 --> 01:09:56,880
we let's go with the brain.
The brain as yet incompletely understood of this

700
01:09:56,960 --> 01:09:59,840
object. Right, And so if
I if I tell you that this is

701
01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:01,680
and again we can take it out
of intersubjective space, because it could you

702
01:10:01,960 --> 01:10:06,079
could be in a value solitude with
respect to any given objects. So it

703
01:10:06,119 --> 01:10:14,239
could just be to your watch that's
worth exactly twenty five dollars because that's what

704
01:10:14,319 --> 01:10:16,079
you paid for it. But this
is the watch that you know, this

705
01:10:16,199 --> 01:10:18,399
is your first watch or whatever it
is, and you wouldn't sell it for

706
01:10:18,439 --> 01:10:21,560
any amount of money. Right,
that's a measure of your behavioral measure of

707
01:10:21,600 --> 01:10:25,000
how much you value it. And
if I told you, Oh, well,

708
01:10:25,000 --> 01:10:27,760
you know, sorry, I brought
your watch and lost it. What

709
01:10:28,079 --> 01:10:30,920
the cascade of negative affect that I
see on your face is correlated with something

710
01:10:30,960 --> 01:10:34,159
that's happening in your head, and
the brain is involved, right, so

711
01:10:34,720 --> 01:10:39,439
that the totality of that picture,
basically stated is the value I can tell

712
01:10:39,560 --> 01:10:44,239
is that there'd be a sociocultural agreement
as to the value of whatever this entity

713
01:10:44,319 --> 01:10:46,239
is, and that would find its
mirror in the brain. But that's that's

714
01:10:46,279 --> 01:10:51,159
a non controversial state. But because
going hand crazy, I mean, he's

715
01:10:51,279 --> 01:10:56,720
like he's over there freaking pantomime and
and coming up with his own I don't

716
01:10:56,720 --> 01:11:00,720
know, underwater dance routine. Over
here, he's just going nuts. He's

717
01:11:00,760 --> 01:11:04,000
got you know, snake fingers over
there like Medusa on his hands, going

718
01:11:04,079 --> 01:11:09,000
crazy. This whole time, I
just realized that he's he's over there forging,

719
01:11:09,119 --> 01:11:13,760
he's doing doing turntables DJ Peterson mixing
it up over there. Phenomena that

720
01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:16,319
their experienced find the reflection in the
breed. The fact that you can say

721
01:11:16,359 --> 01:11:20,119
that that's reflected in the brain.
It's like, yeah, he said,

722
01:11:20,800 --> 01:11:25,199
holda, holda, hold up,
hold up, you said, who would

723
01:11:25,239 --> 01:11:28,960
pay to go see this? Br
You know how much money people pay to

724
01:11:29,039 --> 01:11:36,880
go see JBP. They pay thousands
of dollars to sit closer to jbph.

725
01:11:38,399 --> 01:11:43,560
I'm not joking. It's crazy.
It's like what I mean, I don't

726
01:11:43,600 --> 01:11:47,279
know, man, Somebody get him
some turntables. That'd be more interesting with

727
01:11:47,439 --> 01:11:51,840
his hands. His hands is going
crazy, sperging out over there. Give

728
01:11:51,880 --> 01:12:00,560
him some turntables. Let's get DJJBP
up on the stage. Jbe right.

729
01:12:00,039 --> 01:12:04,119
It's continually run into with skip bar. You have a domain of so called

730
01:12:04,199 --> 01:12:10,600
sacred values, where people who are
otherwise rational cease to be rational actors.

731
01:12:11,159 --> 01:12:16,920
The reason why Israel and the Israelies
and the palest Indians can't negotiate as though

732
01:12:17,279 --> 01:12:23,840
their problems could be solved by a
real estate transaction is because they have irrational

733
01:12:23,920 --> 01:12:29,640
and irreconcilable claims upon land and building. Do you think there are any more

734
01:12:29,720 --> 01:12:31,520
irrational than the claim that that class
is worth something? Well, no,

735
01:12:31,720 --> 01:12:35,840
it's just it's no, it's like
that. It's like that. But I'm

736
01:12:35,880 --> 01:12:39,960
saying that's not irrational by your own
definition. You just said that that was

737
01:12:40,000 --> 01:12:43,960
actually constituted a fact. Well,
no, it's a fact about people right

738
01:12:44,760 --> 01:12:49,800
there, There are this is Okay, should be a little careful here because

739
01:12:49,800 --> 01:12:59,840
it it gets confusing. There are
we can make objective claims about subjective experience,

740
01:13:00,439 --> 01:13:03,119
right, It's not, it's it's
there are we use this word objective

741
01:13:03,159 --> 01:13:08,640
and subjective in different ways. We
use it. Okay, But actually that

742
01:13:08,840 --> 01:13:14,319
was a good point that Peterson made
about the value of the land in Palestine

743
01:13:14,520 --> 01:13:20,640
and the value of the Elton John
sweat glass with the gauge use in there,

744
01:13:20,760 --> 01:13:28,600
right, that the the comparison was
actually good, given that Peterson pointed

745
01:13:28,680 --> 01:13:35,920
out the arbitrary nature of Harris's attributions
of what values are right, and since

746
01:13:36,039 --> 01:13:43,399
values are social constructs, then it's
not actually incoherent to value a piece of

747
01:13:43,560 --> 01:13:46,039
land. And that was actually a
good point. And now he's trying to

748
01:13:46,079 --> 01:13:53,279
say that, well, there's a
difference between purely subjective and objectivetellological ways and

749
01:13:53,359 --> 01:13:57,920
ontological ways, and give me just
one sect to make sure I'm on the

750
01:13:57,920 --> 01:14:00,359
same pace as I can straight by
way of example, if I say that,

751
01:14:00,439 --> 01:14:04,039
you know, that's just your subjective
opinion, right, I'm saying I'm

752
01:14:04,119 --> 01:14:08,119
denigrating. I'm saying that you know
this is an expression of your bias.

753
01:14:08,359 --> 01:14:10,920
This is this this is this true
for you, but it's not true out

754
01:14:10,960 --> 01:14:15,560
in the world. Right. That's
one way I can use the subjective objective

755
01:14:15,600 --> 01:14:18,600
distinction. Uh, And that's in
epistemological way, like you're you're you're ruled

756
01:14:18,640 --> 01:14:20,880
by bias, you're not thinking straight. You know, I don't have to

757
01:14:20,920 --> 01:14:26,119
take your opinions seriously. That's subjective. I'm worried about objective facts. But

758
01:14:26,359 --> 01:14:30,600
people get confused. They think that
objective facts only means the material world and

759
01:14:30,720 --> 01:14:34,920
what's what's really in this glass as
a material object. No, we can

760
01:14:35,000 --> 01:14:39,600
be much more objective than that.
We can. We can make objective claims

761
01:14:39,680 --> 01:14:45,000
about the subjective experience of people like
ourselves. I can, I can,

762
01:14:45,920 --> 01:14:49,159
I can make an infinite number of
objective claims. So he he doesn't understand

763
01:14:49,359 --> 01:14:55,000
doing this and saying this is not
the same thing as how you can give

764
01:14:55,000 --> 01:14:58,640
an account for doing and sane it. Right. So Peterson is kind of

765
01:14:58,760 --> 01:15:03,399
lightly dancing around the question of justifying
how you make these moves, and he

766
01:15:03,520 --> 01:15:09,319
doesn't understand this. He never grasps
what it means to give a justified true

767
01:15:09,399 --> 01:15:13,800
belief getty er problem account for stuff, right. He just dances around it,

768
01:15:14,159 --> 01:15:17,880
acting as if he can just say, well, we can make universal

769
01:15:17,960 --> 01:15:25,720
claims about subjective experience. Yeah,
but that's not answering the question of how

770
01:15:25,800 --> 01:15:29,079
you justify doing that. And I
think a lot of people just don't even

771
01:15:29,079 --> 01:15:30,800
know what it means to justify a
claim. They think that they mean it

772
01:15:30,840 --> 01:15:36,640
in a colloquial, common terminology sense
of like you're not justified in doing that,

773
01:15:36,920 --> 01:15:40,680
like you have a right right.
When we talk about this in a

774
01:15:41,720 --> 01:15:45,319
common parlance sense, it just means
you don't have the right to do that,

775
01:15:46,199 --> 01:15:49,680
right. And when we say in
a philosophical sense we're talking about justification,

776
01:15:49,800 --> 01:15:55,159
epistemic justification, we don't mean in
the common sense, common term sense

777
01:15:55,239 --> 01:15:58,199
of like you don't have a right
to do that. I do, got

778
01:15:58,239 --> 01:16:01,880
it right, I'm justified want to
do That's how people think of it,

779
01:16:02,159 --> 01:16:04,399
and that's probably how Sam Harris thinks
of it. I don't know, right,

780
01:16:04,439 --> 01:16:10,960
I mean, I've seen him really
fumble and make big gaffes on pretty

781
01:16:11,000 --> 01:16:15,399
basic philosophical topics in questions, So
it's I guess it's up for grabs whether

782
01:16:15,479 --> 01:16:21,960
he actually understands what what that would
mean or not about the experiences. But

783
01:16:23,039 --> 01:16:25,640
you'll notice that this is common in
all the atheists, right, I mean

784
01:16:25,720 --> 01:16:29,039
pretty much all of them, except
for maybe a few of the PhD professors.

785
01:16:30,159 --> 01:16:33,479
They never know what you mean by
justification, and you know, giving

786
01:16:33,520 --> 01:16:39,920
an epistemic grounded account, they almost
always think that means telling a story,

787
01:16:41,800 --> 01:16:45,319
right, or telling the origins of
it. Well, we had an evolutionary

788
01:16:45,399 --> 01:16:48,840
process by which we adapted to figure
out how to survive. In that's not

789
01:16:49,000 --> 01:16:53,560
a justification. That's a story you're
telling me, a story of how something

790
01:16:53,600 --> 01:16:57,479
arose. And even if that's how
it arose, it would have nothing to

791
01:16:57,560 --> 01:17:00,439
do with whether it's justified, because
there might all kinds of things that arise

792
01:17:00,880 --> 01:17:05,760
that are irrational or that don't make
any sense. So the fact that it

793
01:17:05,840 --> 01:17:11,960
arose is an evolutionary adaptation to whatever
has nothing to do with whether it actually

794
01:17:12,039 --> 01:17:16,399
is true or false, because much
of these people's own account of evolution is

795
01:17:16,479 --> 01:17:19,520
that there's a bunch of junk DNA, there's a bunch of mutations, there's

796
01:17:19,520 --> 01:17:24,159
a bunch of things that happen that
are worthless and don't benefit the species.

797
01:17:24,720 --> 01:17:30,279
So the mere fact that you call
it a evolutionary adaptation has nothing to do

798
01:17:30,399 --> 01:17:35,640
whatsoever with epistemic justification. Just shows
that They don't know the difference between telling

799
01:17:35,720 --> 01:17:41,319
a story of an origin making up
a story to make it sound like it

800
01:17:41,399 --> 01:17:44,760
makes sense. And they love this, right, this is all they're dumb

801
01:17:44,840 --> 01:17:49,960
examples of space worlds with computers and
no human minds and all this bullshit.

802
01:17:49,960 --> 01:17:54,239
Would they just make up out of
their head? These they don't understand.

803
01:17:54,239 --> 01:17:59,119
They actually think fan fiction is a
thought experiment. Thought experiments are not your

804
01:17:59,640 --> 01:18:03,359
athi is Isaac Asimov like sci fi
fantasies. That's not what a thought.

805
01:18:03,439 --> 01:18:09,319
A thought experiment is not how creative
can I be in making up crap to

806
01:18:09,439 --> 01:18:15,600
make my made up worldview work?
That's not what a thought experiment is.

807
01:18:15,640 --> 01:18:19,920
A thought experiment is a way to
demonstrate something that's logical or illogical, right,

808
01:18:23,279 --> 01:18:30,479
like any possible world, Right,
Like you can't deny the law of

809
01:18:30,560 --> 01:18:34,039
non contradiction in any possible world.
Okay, it's not saying that there's a

810
01:18:34,399 --> 01:18:40,680
world where there's a bunch of Oh, let's imagine a world where there's only

811
01:18:41,239 --> 01:18:45,399
a bunch of gay Olton John's that
live on a planet and they work for

812
01:18:45,520 --> 01:18:48,680
a big gay supercomputer that lives in
the center of the Earth, and it's

813
01:18:48,720 --> 01:18:51,279
a giant gay or Earth, and
like, we wouldn't need God on that

814
01:18:51,359 --> 01:18:56,800
planet because look, it's functioning and
everybody's got their own gay sweat juice that

815
01:18:56,880 --> 01:19:00,079
they can drink, so it's a
it's a workable planet. Nodded. That's

816
01:19:00,119 --> 01:19:04,359
what they think. That is.
That's what they think a thought experiment is.

817
01:19:04,680 --> 01:19:10,279
It's like getting creative with you know, Elton John fan fiction or some

818
01:19:10,439 --> 01:19:15,079
shit. Right, that's not what
a thought experiment is. That's do with

819
01:19:15,159 --> 01:19:17,840
logic, dummy, the example I
always use, but I just happen to

820
01:19:17,880 --> 01:19:24,319
love it. What was JFK thinking
the moment he got shot? Right?

821
01:19:24,399 --> 01:19:26,840
Now, that's it. We don't
know, so we'll never get the data

822
01:19:27,119 --> 01:19:31,079
right, so that the truth or
falseness of what I'm about to say can't

823
01:19:31,119 --> 01:19:35,159
be predicated on actually getting access to
the data because because he's not around and

824
01:19:35,279 --> 01:19:42,600
his brain's not around to scan.
So but we you and I both know

825
01:19:42,680 --> 01:19:46,039
an infinite number of things he wasn't
thinking about. We can make an objective

826
01:19:46,159 --> 01:19:50,920
claim about his subjectivity. I know
he wasn't thinking well, I hope Jordan

827
01:19:50,960 --> 01:19:55,920
Peterson and Sam Harris work it out
on stage that night, right, And

828
01:19:56,119 --> 01:19:59,800
an infinite number of things like that
he was thinking something. He was experiencing,

829
01:19:59,800 --> 01:20:04,239
some thing, but we don't know
what it is that I went on

830
01:20:04,279 --> 01:20:13,680
talking. Once again, we see
that this debate discussion never fails to entertain

831
01:20:14,000 --> 01:20:20,840
with the wild out there examples.
What was JFK thinking when the bullet hit

832
01:20:20,960 --> 01:20:27,239
him? We know that it wasn't. What's Jordan Peterson up to? I

833
01:20:27,319 --> 01:20:32,000
mean, actually, I mean I
don't think that's likely, but I don't

834
01:20:32,039 --> 01:20:36,119
know how in Sam Harrison's worldview he
actually thinks he could demonstrate that. And

835
01:20:36,199 --> 01:20:42,039
by the way, you can't scan
a brain to know what somebody was thinking.

836
01:20:42,680 --> 01:20:45,399
I mean, unless there's some amazing
DARPA tech that Sam Harris knows about

837
01:20:45,439 --> 01:20:50,199
that I don't know about. Scanning
a brain doesn't tell you what people thought

838
01:20:50,720 --> 01:20:56,199
fifty sixty years ago or whatever.
This is a really bizarre example. So

839
01:20:56,439 --> 01:21:05,800
he so it's sort of like,
you know, Caesar wasn't drinking, Caesar

840
01:21:06,000 --> 01:21:15,880
wasn't thinking about lickamde was he no
see objective objective truth right there? But

841
01:21:15,039 --> 01:21:21,319
actually, even though it sounds ridiculous
in Sam Harris's worldview, I don't he

842
01:21:21,359 --> 01:21:27,880
couldn't actually demonstrate that because, in
other words, in a materialist empiricist paradigm,

843
01:21:28,520 --> 01:21:31,560
he's going to have to give empirical
proof for these kinds of claims.

844
01:21:32,359 --> 01:21:38,279
Do you see that now? I
don't. I'm not an empiricist, so

845
01:21:38,399 --> 01:21:43,600
that's that wouldn't really be a problem
for my worldview to say that. You

846
01:21:43,680 --> 01:21:48,600
know, it's pretty much impossible that
Caesar when he crossed the Rubicon was thinking

847
01:21:48,640 --> 01:21:55,239
about lick a made candy right,
or was thinking about drinking Elton John's sweat

848
01:21:55,279 --> 01:22:00,600
juice. But I'm in a much
better position to explain why that's the case,

849
01:22:01,359 --> 01:22:06,039
being that I'm not an empiricist materialist, whereas Sam Harris is in no

850
01:22:06,159 --> 01:22:11,640
position to actually argue that that's the
case. So even though it sounds on

851
01:22:11,720 --> 01:22:15,399
the surface like he can make a
good argument here that there's all kinds of

852
01:22:15,560 --> 01:22:18,399
truth claims that he could make,
it's not really whether you can make those

853
01:22:18,479 --> 01:22:21,880
claims. It's whether on your worldview
and you're in your paradigm, you could

854
01:22:23,039 --> 01:22:26,239
justify those claims. And by the
way, actually Allibnans has a great argument

855
01:22:26,359 --> 01:22:31,840
to actually refute Sam Harris there,
and it's called Leibnanz's argument from eternality of

856
01:22:31,920 --> 01:22:38,079
truth. And so Leibniz says this
makes this argument says, well, I

857
01:22:38,199 --> 01:22:43,479
can prove to you that you can't
reduce the truthfulness of an event or the

858
01:22:43,560 --> 01:22:47,079
truthfulness of a proposition to matter or
to an instance of history. He says,

859
01:22:47,199 --> 01:22:53,960
because let's say, so Caesar crossed
the rubicon, right, isn't it

860
01:22:54,079 --> 01:22:58,960
always true now that it's even after
it's happened, right, it will always

861
01:22:59,000 --> 01:23:04,079
be the case that Caesar cross the
rubicon? Right now? Is the truthfulness

862
01:23:04,199 --> 01:23:10,479
of the proposition that Caesar crossed the
rubicon contained in the event of Caesar crossing

863
01:23:10,520 --> 01:23:15,359
the rubicon? No, Caesar crossed
the Rubicon was an event at one place,

864
01:23:15,479 --> 01:23:21,399
at one time, and yet outside
of that event, throughout all space

865
01:23:21,479 --> 01:23:26,000
and all time afterwards, it is
the case that Caesar crossed the rubicon.

866
01:23:26,800 --> 01:23:32,239
So the eternality of truth cannot be
reduced to the material phenomena of the event.

867
01:23:33,800 --> 01:23:40,520
And so Leivenez's argument for the eternality
of truth also refutes this bizarre claim,

868
01:23:41,800 --> 01:23:45,159
bizarre unjustified claim, I should say, because the claim itself actually isn't

869
01:23:45,199 --> 01:23:49,319
that bizarre what Sam Harris is saying
that Okay, yes, JFK. When

870
01:23:49,359 --> 01:23:54,319
the bullet hit him, he was
not thinking of Elton John sweat juice.

871
01:23:55,399 --> 01:24:00,600
But there's not actually a way in
the world view that Sam Harris says to

872
01:24:00,760 --> 01:24:04,000
ever demonstrate any kind of proposition or
any kind of truthfulness like that, given

873
01:24:04,039 --> 01:24:08,279
that he's a reduction ast materialists.
You say about this domain of value,

874
01:24:08,880 --> 01:24:15,399
I'm saying that it exists in this
landscape of actual and possible conscious experience for

875
01:24:15,800 --> 01:24:20,920
human beings and any other system like
us that can experience this range of suffering

876
01:24:20,960 --> 01:24:24,279
and happiness. Well, okay,
so, and partly what I'm trying to

877
01:24:24,359 --> 01:24:28,199
do is to actually determine what that
structure is. So well, in our

878
01:24:28,279 --> 01:24:31,560
case, it's certainly connected to the
evolved structure of our brain. Yeah,

879
01:24:31,560 --> 01:24:35,880
but I want everything else we do. We want to go way deeper into

880
01:24:36,439 --> 01:24:41,079
the idea than it's connected with brain
states, because it's yes, it's definitely

881
01:24:41,159 --> 01:24:44,319
connected with brain states. The question
is, at least in part how and

882
01:24:44,439 --> 01:24:47,159
what does that mean? And I
think that the neuroscience has progressed far enough

883
01:24:47,159 --> 01:24:49,800
so that we can do quite a
good job of this. And so what

884
01:24:50,000 --> 01:24:53,840
I want to return to one thing, and maybe I'll outline a little bit

885
01:24:53,880 --> 01:24:58,720
of this. And when you talked
about the Israeli Palestinian conflict, you said

886
01:24:58,720 --> 01:25:01,600
that that was irrational and so look, you know, fair enough, people

887
01:25:01,640 --> 01:25:05,079
have been locked with their hands around
each other's next there for three thousand years.

888
01:25:05,359 --> 01:25:10,680
But there's a problem there, and
the problem is that people are looking

889
01:25:10,800 --> 01:25:16,399
at the landscape from a contextualized perspective. Right, it's not just a piece

890
01:25:16,439 --> 01:25:19,039
of land, it's their piece of
land. It's like your house, or

891
01:25:19,079 --> 01:25:21,159
make your favorite shirt. It's like, well, you say, well,

892
01:25:21,159 --> 01:25:27,439
I have a favorite shirt. It's
like, well, I'm convinced now Jordan

893
01:25:27,439 --> 01:25:30,920
Pierce is over there doing Jedi mind
tricks. That's what he's doing with his

894
01:25:30,000 --> 01:25:32,359
hands. If we're trying to figure
out is he DJing over there? Is

895
01:25:32,359 --> 01:25:36,319
he got some turntables tiny turntables.
No, he's doing Jedi mind tricks.

896
01:25:36,560 --> 01:25:43,560
You don't need to see my justification. You don't need to see my arguments.

897
01:25:44,439 --> 01:25:46,479
Move along, right, he's doing
some obi wan over there, that's

898
01:25:46,520 --> 01:25:49,199
what he's up there. There's nothing
inherent in the shirt that makes it your

899
01:25:49,239 --> 01:25:51,960
favorite. No, it's a subjective
judgment. It's like, well, then

900
01:25:53,079 --> 01:25:54,840
is that a fact. Well,
yes, it's a fact. It's a

901
01:25:54,880 --> 01:25:58,479
fact about subjective judgment. It's okay. Well, the Israeli claim on the

902
01:25:58,600 --> 01:26:00,840
land and the Palestinian claim on the
land is a subjective judgment. That's a

903
01:26:00,960 --> 01:26:03,199
fact. It's like, so,
how is it rash to say it?

904
01:26:03,359 --> 01:26:12,239
Because it is the true analogy here, the complete analogy is rather like,

905
01:26:13,119 --> 01:26:17,760
we're about to fight over Elton John's
glass, and Elton John was never here,

906
01:26:19,159 --> 01:26:27,640
right, well, oh, mine
blown? Right? Mind blown?

907
01:26:29,600 --> 01:26:34,279
This whole time we thought we thought
that hot, sweaty glass of water over

908
01:26:34,319 --> 01:26:41,039
there, that was looking so good, right, that hot, sweaty gay

909
01:26:41,159 --> 01:26:45,359
water over there, sweating looking all
luscious. Elton John wasn't even here.

910
01:26:45,399 --> 01:26:56,920
It is likewise guy wasn't even over
in Palestine. Bro, you mind?

911
01:26:56,960 --> 01:27:00,359
You just got fool, dude,
you got duped, Sam Harrison blew my

912
01:27:00,479 --> 01:27:08,560
mind, bro. So so I'm
not saying so it clearly still matters to

913
01:27:08,720 --> 01:27:13,439
us in our misapprehension of our situation. We still really care. And these

914
01:27:13,479 --> 01:27:16,880
are these are objectively true claims about
the level at which we value things,

915
01:27:17,359 --> 01:27:21,720
and hence the impasse. But it
matters by the way this would be.

916
01:27:23,800 --> 01:27:26,760
I'm surprised that maybe Jordan Pearson just
wasn't thinking about it. But I mean,

917
01:27:26,800 --> 01:27:33,279
that's really a false analogy, right, because humans value certain artifacts that

918
01:27:33,600 --> 01:27:43,239
therefore all value is equated to the
value of an artifact. Right, So

919
01:27:43,560 --> 01:27:46,000
I would first of all point out
that that's a false analogy. Although the

920
01:27:46,079 --> 01:27:48,720
crowd was really really wowed by that
one, right. I mean, this

921
01:27:48,800 --> 01:27:55,399
low IQ crowd which we've seen has
been has been a struggle to listen to

922
01:27:55,840 --> 01:27:59,640
whether they're hooting and their hollering and
their applause lights going off after every comment.

923
01:28:01,039 --> 01:28:08,319
I think that again, I'll give
Sam Harris a point two. Another

924
01:28:08,359 --> 01:28:12,560
point here is Elton John Joe was
pretty good earlier on, but i'll give

925
01:28:12,600 --> 01:28:17,640
him a point here for at least
good rhetoric. But this argument isn't as

926
01:28:17,720 --> 01:28:23,760
good as you as it might appear
on the surface, because it hinges on

927
01:28:23,920 --> 01:28:32,800
the equivalence between a religious conflict or
a historical conflict being the same as the

928
01:28:32,960 --> 01:28:45,399
conflict between over subjective value. So, because some objects have subjective value,

929
01:28:45,079 --> 01:28:53,279
we wouldn't therefore conclude that all objects
therefore are purely subjective in value. This

930
01:28:53,439 --> 01:29:01,720
would be part's whole fallacy. Right
now, FDA is in the audience shout

931
01:29:01,720 --> 01:29:05,760
out to patristic faith, that wouldn't
that be a part's whole fallacy. I

932
01:29:05,840 --> 01:29:15,359
mean to claim that because some objects
derive their value as artifacts in a human

933
01:29:15,479 --> 01:29:21,000
society to then therefore move to all
objects are identical then in the same way

934
01:29:21,119 --> 01:29:28,960
as deriving their value as purely human
social contracts or human human relative objects.

935
01:29:30,079 --> 01:29:34,159
The problem would be, though,
that it still rests on the assumption that

936
01:29:34,279 --> 01:29:39,159
God doesn't exist, and that's the
actually the thing that's in question, right,

937
01:29:39,640 --> 01:29:43,239
So for the analogy to work,
God has to not exist in the

938
01:29:43,319 --> 01:29:46,239
same way that he's saying that Elton
John didn't actually drink from this class.

939
01:29:47,600 --> 01:29:51,000
But that's the thing that's in question, is whether God exists. So let's

940
01:29:51,039 --> 01:30:00,159
see how Jordan Peterson replies to this, at least rhetorically good repost from gam

941
01:30:00,239 --> 01:30:04,359
Harrison if that's counterproductively dismissive, like
you could say, well, when you

942
01:30:04,399 --> 01:30:08,680
look at the specific claims, it's
really not. It's well, look,

943
01:30:08,760 --> 01:30:12,760
you took you took the contextual interpretation
to its absolute extreme. You said,

944
01:30:12,800 --> 01:30:15,880
well, there's multiple reasons why different
people who occupy the same piece of land

945
01:30:15,920 --> 01:30:18,600
are going to feel about it in
different ways. Sure, okay, and

946
01:30:19,199 --> 01:30:24,359
most of those reasons are amenable to
some kind of rational compromise. I mean

947
01:30:24,680 --> 01:30:27,920
there's actually there are studies on this. I mean there's studies done by people

948
01:30:28,000 --> 01:30:31,600
when you say the word rational in
that context, you're using it as a

949
01:30:31,640 --> 01:30:38,000
black box that contains right. So
some people in the audience are now beginning

950
01:30:38,079 --> 01:30:43,279
to question the existence of Elton John, right, which is eltheism. Right.

951
01:30:43,359 --> 01:30:45,920
So if you don't believe in Elton
John, you're an eltheist. And

952
01:30:46,159 --> 01:30:51,159
I'm actually and I'm starting to doubt
whether I mean, he wasn't there,

953
01:30:53,119 --> 01:30:59,560
you know, slobbering and sweating on
that sweaty glass. So I'm actually starting

954
01:30:59,560 --> 01:31:02,520
to become an healthiest I don't think
there is an Elm John. And by

955
01:31:02,560 --> 01:31:06,159
the way, if there was an
equivalence between the non existence of God and

956
01:31:06,239 --> 01:31:13,880
Palestine and the non existence, I'm
I'm an eltheist. Now are you exactly

957
01:31:15,119 --> 01:31:21,359
exactly elthyist? Not an atheist?
An ealthyist? The concept proper way of

958
01:31:21,439 --> 01:31:25,319
thinking about it, It's like it's
not so obbyist in most situations. What

959
01:31:25,439 --> 01:31:29,960
the rational approach is an obvious one. I have an obvious one here,

960
01:31:30,159 --> 01:31:35,399
and and that's that whatever the Christians
and the Muslims and the Jews think they're

961
01:31:35,479 --> 01:31:43,359
getting from their attachment to their dogmatic
and irreconcilable religious worldviews can be gotten just

962
01:31:43,479 --> 01:31:51,119
as well by a deeper understanding of
the of our universal and non culturally bound

963
01:31:51,199 --> 01:31:58,239
capacity for ethical experience. Yes,
thank you, FDA. That could be

964
01:31:58,680 --> 01:32:02,039
three, the unholy turner of three
fallacies, fallacy of composition parts whole,

965
01:32:02,600 --> 01:32:09,760
fallacy of hasty generalization. While some
objects our own derive their value only from

966
01:32:10,880 --> 01:32:18,720
cultural construction, and so therefore all
objects are derived as cultural constructs, and

967
01:32:18,800 --> 01:32:23,960
begging the question, because if God's
existence is a thing that's in question,

968
01:32:24,640 --> 01:32:30,720
then the analogy already rests on the
non existence of God exactly. Spiritual experience,

969
01:32:30,000 --> 01:32:34,479
community building, and we can what's
that ground to you? We can

970
01:32:34,560 --> 01:32:39,680
touch that space without beind It's almost
like the status quo is. It's almost

971
01:32:39,720 --> 01:32:42,479
like you're content to live in a
world, or you're at least you're content

972
01:32:42,600 --> 01:32:48,079
not to judge. Step into Wick
studio, where creative freedom means absolute efficiency.

973
01:32:48,760 --> 01:32:55,760
Oh, I got it, Hold
me closer, spaghetti months to count

974
01:32:55,840 --> 01:33:01,920
the droplets on the gay juice.
She's a lady, she's a man.

975
01:33:02,000 --> 01:33:06,800
Answer, that's a manser, get
it, a man dancer, a mancer.

976
01:33:06,960 --> 01:33:11,640
I don't know. I feel like
I'm missing the obvious lyrics. Here,

977
01:33:11,960 --> 01:33:17,239
hold me closer, tyny, same
me, hold me closer to Jordan

978
01:33:17,439 --> 01:33:29,039
Pete Son. Count the count the
what what should we be counting? I

979
01:33:29,079 --> 01:33:39,560
don't know, hold me closer necromance. Uh anyway, be a world where

980
01:33:40,800 --> 01:33:46,520
fans of rival soccer teams or baseball
teams regularly kill one another over their fandom,

981
01:33:46,760 --> 01:33:48,960
right, like? Like what if
that were the status quo? It's

982
01:33:49,000 --> 01:33:51,960
like he's been this way for thousands
of years exactly if Elton John exists,

983
01:33:53,039 --> 01:33:56,600
why bad thing happened? Boom,
We're all eltheust tonight, we just want

984
01:33:57,000 --> 01:34:06,760
we just got the the trans John
dental argument, transcend transcend Dealton argument,

985
01:34:08,279 --> 01:34:14,399
Transcendeltal transcend Delton argument, transcend Elton
argument, the trans and Elton argument.

986
01:34:14,479 --> 01:34:25,119
That's it, trans and Elton argument. To make you an eltheist rocket rocket

987
01:34:25,239 --> 01:34:27,560
man. I'm trying to think of
other Elton I don't like Elton John,

988
01:34:27,680 --> 01:34:33,119
so tiny dancers like the only one
I know. Count the fallacy. It's

989
01:34:33,119 --> 01:34:42,239
got to be count the count,
the count, the errors on the I

990
01:34:42,279 --> 01:34:45,960
don't know, it must be a
reason for it. Sports. I'm not

991
01:34:46,119 --> 01:34:51,199
trying to justify the Israeli Palestinian conflict, but I'm saying that we took quick

992
01:34:51,239 --> 01:34:56,239
to judge the sanctity of their of
their differences of opinion. Wait a minute,

993
01:34:56,279 --> 01:34:58,960
Sam, there you made a claim, like you Your claim was that

994
01:34:59,319 --> 01:35:01,720
if the Christian and the Jews and
the Muslims would just stop their stupidity and

995
01:35:01,880 --> 01:35:05,439
adopt this universal ethic, then everything
would be okay. It's like, okay,

996
01:35:05,720 --> 01:35:10,600
what's the basis for the universal ethic? Like that's such, that's a

997
01:35:10,920 --> 01:35:14,279
problem. No one's going in search
of that. The truth is, I

998
01:35:14,359 --> 01:35:18,199
mean, that's an interesting problem for
philosophers and for scientists. That's not.

999
01:35:18,479 --> 01:35:23,840
Actually your claim was that if the
Christians here we go, the Muslims would

1000
01:35:23,880 --> 01:35:28,159
just stop their stupidity and this universal
ethic, then everything would be okay.

1001
01:35:28,239 --> 01:35:30,319
It's like, okay, what's the
basis for the universal ethic? Yes,

1002
01:35:30,399 --> 01:35:34,479
there we go. That's finally,
after one hour and ten minute we got

1003
01:35:34,560 --> 01:35:45,600
a clear targeted torpedo argument Torpedo and
Peter Torpetersen, Jordan Torpetersen. Finally,

1004
01:35:46,479 --> 01:35:50,800
it only took an hour and ten
minutes. And this was the he could

1005
01:35:50,880 --> 01:35:55,520
ask this question like a break an
hour ago. This is the question.

1006
01:35:55,680 --> 01:36:08,039
Finally, bro come on, dang
dude, we finally got it. And

1007
01:36:09,600 --> 01:36:15,520
what will Sam's answer be? What
will Sam's answer. Finally, now we

1008
01:36:15,560 --> 01:36:18,920
got to hear let's pay attention.
I'm all distracted. I'm not even listening

1009
01:36:18,960 --> 01:36:23,119
to them. Gibber jabber. I
almost missed the final argument after an hour

1010
01:36:23,159 --> 01:36:28,199
of this because I'm trying to think
up Elton John lyrics, because because I'm

1011
01:36:28,520 --> 01:36:30,720
I'm more entranced and interested in the
Elton John jokes than I am the rest

1012
01:36:30,760 --> 01:36:33,199
of this conversation. Finally, though, in the midst of the jokes,

1013
01:36:34,199 --> 01:36:44,039
we get the torpedoes and the truth
is. I mean, that's an interesting

1014
01:36:44,319 --> 01:36:49,800
problem for philosophers and ah, the
great deflection where the rubber meets the road.

1015
01:36:50,199 --> 01:36:56,159
Ah. Yeah, that's an interesting
problem which my worldview can't deal with.

1016
01:36:56,560 --> 01:36:59,920
And I guess philosophers can talk and
think about it. But you know

1017
01:37:00,159 --> 01:37:01,439
what, it's just not where the
rubber meets the road. Oh, so

1018
01:37:01,600 --> 01:37:08,279
the greatest challenge argument against my position, I just handwave it. It's not

1019
01:37:08,800 --> 01:37:11,960
you know what, whatever, people
living their lives. Well, I mean

1020
01:37:12,840 --> 01:37:15,279
this is analogous to me, right, So I don't have to give an

1021
01:37:15,279 --> 01:37:19,439
account for my universal ethic. I
just made a universal claim about ethics.

1022
01:37:19,520 --> 01:37:23,000
I don't have to give an account
for it. And if you ask me

1023
01:37:23,039 --> 01:37:24,920
to give an account for it.
You know what, This is just what

1024
01:37:25,079 --> 01:37:27,520
philosophers do, and they're annoying.
But by the way, don't you have

1025
01:37:27,560 --> 01:37:30,439
a philosophy degree or something, Sam, I thought you had a claim to

1026
01:37:30,520 --> 01:37:34,520
be into philosophy undergrad or something.
Right with the difference between the bad,

1027
01:37:35,520 --> 01:37:40,399
I really care about all of it. Great point, Jordan. If this

1028
01:37:40,600 --> 01:37:44,319
is what's in the book, then
great for calling him out. Finally,

1029
01:37:44,960 --> 01:37:47,800
right, this is what's in your
book. This is how you distinguish between

1030
01:37:48,399 --> 01:37:54,239
well being in a good life versus
bad being in a bad life. Oh

1031
01:37:54,319 --> 01:37:57,439
and there's no justification for it.
Leave that to the philosophers. So you

1032
01:37:57,520 --> 01:38:02,359
see how hopefully people with some degree
of common sense and rationality, the very

1033
01:38:02,439 --> 01:38:08,840
thing that Sam Harris is always appealing
to when the robber meets the road or

1034
01:38:08,960 --> 01:38:14,640
his own phrase, I don't have
any argument for that. I don't consider

1035
01:38:15,279 --> 01:38:18,760
the question of how I give an
account for my universal claims a valid question

1036
01:38:18,920 --> 01:38:27,479
for me. How can people not
see through that? That's the intellectual chicanery.

1037
01:38:28,840 --> 01:38:38,279
The man is a mountebank tomfoolery,
fraudy of the highest degree. And

1038
01:38:38,760 --> 01:38:43,399
my job as a as a philosopher, as a moral philosopher in this is

1039
01:38:43,439 --> 01:38:45,800
to make the best I thought he
just said that's a question for philosophers.

1040
01:38:46,800 --> 01:38:54,600
And now he's like, but my
job as a moral philosopher, what this

1041
01:38:54,800 --> 01:38:59,640
dude was a fraud? Back then? People are like, it's only taken

1042
01:38:59,720 --> 01:39:02,479
now after a bunch of koof nonsense, right with him saying a bunch of

1043
01:39:02,560 --> 01:39:05,640
crazy stuff, where they're like starting
to realize, Hey, wait a minute,

1044
01:39:06,479 --> 01:39:12,239
sounds like maybe Sam Harris is not
actually that rational bro. He never

1045
01:39:12,560 --> 01:39:17,199
was. Where was y'all at,
dummies? Remember five six years ago when

1046
01:39:17,239 --> 01:39:20,319
we were saying he was not rational? And what were all? What was

1047
01:39:20,359 --> 01:39:29,760
a lot of the the YouTube atheist
crowd back then? You're dumbist. Hold

1048
01:39:29,840 --> 01:39:40,079
me close to spaghetti monster. Count
the meatballs on my face. She's a

1049
01:39:40,239 --> 01:39:47,239
lady. She's a spaghetti monster without
a gender. I don't even what's what's

1050
01:39:47,279 --> 01:39:50,760
even another Elton John song? I
don't even know. I can't keep swinging

1051
01:39:50,840 --> 01:40:00,199
singing that one rocket man? How's
that go? Bron ain't ever el I

1052
01:40:00,199 --> 01:40:03,720
don't listen to Elton John. I
remember that one song he sang with that

1053
01:40:03,840 --> 01:40:10,159
other straight dude, George Michael,
Remember han, y'all remember George Michael,

1054
01:40:11,640 --> 01:40:17,439
Steve Ault, not that, George
Michael, how does the song go?

1055
01:40:19,079 --> 01:40:29,840
Zero? Rocking man? And I
think it's gonna be a long long time.

1056
01:40:30,439 --> 01:40:35,760
He was singing about this debate,
Wasn't he right? And I think

1057
01:40:35,840 --> 01:40:41,279
it's gonna be a long long time, George, Elton John prophesying. He

1058
01:40:41,439 --> 01:40:45,199
was prophesying about this debate, right, because the question is when is this

1059
01:40:45,279 --> 01:40:47,439
debate gonna get anywhere? And Elton
john was up there singing that song.

1060
01:40:47,560 --> 01:40:56,960
And I think it's gonna be a
long long time. Now I'm starting to

1061
01:40:57,039 --> 01:41:00,960
be I'm know guys, Elton john
was a of it. He predicted this

1062
01:41:01,079 --> 01:41:06,960
debate. So I'm no longer an
ealthist. I have reconverted back to Elton

1063
01:41:09,279 --> 01:41:15,880
to being a non elthyist. And
I think it's gonna be a long long

1064
01:41:15,039 --> 01:41:21,319
time anyway. What's another Elton Johnson
Rocketman, Tiny Dancer? That's the only

1065
01:41:21,359 --> 01:41:28,119
ones I know? What's that one? Don't let the Sun go down on

1066
01:41:28,359 --> 01:41:35,640
Me? That's the one with the
other heterosexual man, George Mike, remember

1067
01:41:35,680 --> 01:41:48,359
that don't let the Sun go down
on Me? That sounds like about I'm

1068
01:41:48,359 --> 01:41:50,720
not gonna make that joke. There's
a there's a really dirty gay joke,

1069
01:41:50,760 --> 01:41:56,479
and I'm not gonna make it right
case I can for these ideas, but

1070
01:41:56,520 --> 01:41:59,960
the truth is, I mean it
is analogous to when when you get a

1071
01:42:00,039 --> 01:42:03,000
to a debate with a Christian fundamentalist
in the story, Oh he's gonna by

1072
01:42:03,039 --> 01:42:06,640
the way, I just thought,
George Michael, he was singing about Jordan

1073
01:42:06,640 --> 01:42:12,880
Peterson. Y'all know that? Did
y'all know that George Michael sang about Jordan

1074
01:42:12,920 --> 01:42:18,199
Peterson. I will be your father
figure. Put your tiny hands in mine.

1075
01:42:18,760 --> 01:42:23,920
I will be your preacher, teacher
here that thing you have in mind,

1076
01:42:26,199 --> 01:42:29,680
Get it, because Jordan Peterson's a
father figure to all the young men

1077
01:42:29,760 --> 01:42:35,680
out there. Get it. Get
it. Very often this this person will

1078
01:42:35,760 --> 01:42:43,159
pretend to care about cosmology or evolution, as though it's the most important thing

1079
01:42:43,199 --> 01:42:45,239
in the world, as though you
Okay, so when you debate a fundamentalists,

1080
01:42:45,279 --> 01:42:48,079
they will pretend to care about evolution. Okay, let's say worse,

1081
01:42:48,239 --> 01:42:51,520
let's hear this. This is a
genius argument. Where's it going. Can't

1082
01:42:51,560 --> 01:42:54,960
get out of bed in the morning
and figure out how to treat your your

1083
01:42:55,000 --> 01:42:58,319
friends and family, well, unless
you figure out what happened before the Big

1084
01:42:58,399 --> 01:43:00,960
bang? Right, No, one
really lives their lives. That okay.

1085
01:43:01,079 --> 01:43:10,119
So so the argument is that I
don't need to know abstract, unknowable questions.

1086
01:43:11,119 --> 01:43:15,119
Actually, what he's saying is when
they ask hard questions of my position,

1087
01:43:16,760 --> 01:43:21,039
like can I give an account for
the universal ethic, he's equating that

1088
01:43:21,199 --> 01:43:28,279
to ridiculous, unanswerable questions that have
nothing to do with how to live a

1089
01:43:28,359 --> 01:43:30,960
good life. Oh but it does
have everything to do with how to live

1090
01:43:31,000 --> 01:43:35,880
a good life, because if the
world was not created, then there's not

1091
01:43:36,119 --> 01:43:41,239
a basis for right and wrong.
And he knows, I think enough to

1092
01:43:41,399 --> 01:43:45,399
know that right. And so this
is one hundred percent classic deflection that way.

1093
01:43:45,800 --> 01:43:49,920
And yet we have convinced ourselves that
this is a sensible way of talking

1094
01:43:50,039 --> 01:43:56,039
about the conflict between religion and science. Hold on, I think you have

1095
01:43:56,199 --> 01:44:00,399
arrived at the core of your conflict
right here, and I actually you both

1096
01:44:00,479 --> 01:44:05,479
loud and clear. Your point is
that if the people faced with the question

1097
01:44:05,840 --> 01:44:10,039
were to, you know, start
with a fresh sheet of paper look at

1098
01:44:10,079 --> 01:44:13,319
the Middle East, they could arrive
at a compromise that they as individuals might

1099
01:44:13,479 --> 01:44:19,119
find put them way ahead. And
it's more profitable than the situation that they

1100
01:44:19,119 --> 01:44:23,880
are continually finding themselves in and that
might be the case. On the other

1101
01:44:24,000 --> 01:44:30,039
hand, the reason that they don't
is that historically those who have have been

1102
01:44:30,079 --> 01:44:34,680
out competed by those who haven't.
So the point is the universe and the

1103
01:44:34,760 --> 01:44:39,239
fact that it refuses to solve that
conflict is telling us that there is some

1104
01:44:39,640 --> 01:44:43,560
reason that people who take that prospect. Yeah, I agree. What would

1105
01:44:43,560 --> 01:44:45,439
you do? What would y'all do
if all three of them, in the

1106
01:44:45,560 --> 01:44:51,000
midst of this old five year old
live video, if they all broke the

1107
01:44:51,079 --> 01:44:56,319
fourth wall and turned to the screen
and said, Jay Dyer, would you

1108
01:44:56,439 --> 01:45:00,479
like to come on stage? That
would blow your own mind? When I

1109
01:45:00,520 --> 01:45:02,479
would think it's some kind of like
a deep fake hack or something, right,

1110
01:45:03,319 --> 01:45:12,039
if they broke the fourth wall,
curiously are not? And by the

1111
01:45:12,079 --> 01:45:14,920
way, if that happened, I
would get up there and start singing Elton

1112
01:45:15,000 --> 01:45:20,399
John songs because I would just go
insing, right. That would break my

1113
01:45:20,600 --> 01:45:24,640
mind and it would break my heart. Right, it would be a dream

1114
01:45:24,720 --> 01:45:29,680
come true to be on stage with
the greatest minds of our time. Actually

1115
01:45:29,800 --> 01:45:32,319
correct in some at least metaphorical way. So, in other words, what

1116
01:45:32,520 --> 01:45:38,720
is it to have a sentimental attachment
to some piece of territory somewhere that sounds

1117
01:45:38,880 --> 01:45:43,359
completely irrational. On the other hand, that sentimental attachment may result in you

1118
01:45:43,840 --> 01:45:46,680
continuing for five hundred or one thousand
or two thousand, Wait a minute,

1119
01:45:47,039 --> 01:45:53,600
having a sentimental attachment to a place, it's completely irrational. Does anybody on

1120
01:45:53,640 --> 01:45:58,800
the stage like their house and their
land? I mean, I mean for

1121
01:45:59,199 --> 01:46:04,479
pretty much all of humanity's existence,
they've handed down their land to their children

1122
01:46:04,479 --> 01:46:08,880
and their offspring when they were able
to keep their land. So no,

1123
01:46:09,000 --> 01:46:12,399
I don't think that's irrational at all. It's facility years. Whereas if you

1124
01:46:12,520 --> 01:46:15,520
surrendered it, because if it was
irrational, you might go extinct. Now,

1125
01:46:15,600 --> 01:46:18,359
should you care that your lineage is
going to go extinct? Maybe arguably

1126
01:46:18,520 --> 01:46:21,720
not. On the other hand,
it's hard to imagine that what you're saying

1127
01:46:21,880 --> 01:46:29,239
is so thoroughly grounded that it can
justify causing people to alter their perspective on

1128
01:46:29,439 --> 01:46:32,800
value in such a way that it
might actually drive them extinct. Well,

1129
01:46:33,279 --> 01:46:39,600
interesting because, as we saw in
yesterday's discussion, a lot of the atheists

1130
01:46:39,640 --> 01:46:44,680
felt justified in getting rid of tens
of millions of people in the last century.

1131
01:46:45,000 --> 01:46:50,119
So this idea that the atheist worldview
is immune to the idea of warfare

1132
01:46:50,399 --> 01:46:58,039
and genocide and getting rid of people
is complete blowy. Clearly, maybe secularism

1133
01:47:00,039 --> 01:47:02,359
we're talking about the fringe here.
We're talking about that when you're talking about

1134
01:47:03,079 --> 01:47:10,720
in this case, the Israeli settlers
and the Palestinian terrorists, right like that

1135
01:47:10,960 --> 01:47:15,239
is that is there? We should
all breathe a sigh of relief that that

1136
01:47:15,439 --> 01:47:20,479
doesn't that that that kind of passionate
attachment to land doesn't characterize most of humanity.

1137
01:47:20,880 --> 01:47:25,159
It does if you're trying to defend
your house. So but but that's

1138
01:47:27,039 --> 01:47:31,159
it's because I think this is this
is where, this is where the crux

1139
01:47:31,199 --> 01:47:35,720
of it is. So if we
follow the idea that this is actually some

1140
01:47:36,119 --> 01:47:42,359
that the seemingly sentimental and irrational attachment
to the piece of land is some sort

1141
01:47:42,359 --> 01:47:47,600
of meta rationality which sounds like your
perspective, then we are now confronted with

1142
01:47:47,720 --> 01:47:51,880
the question of all right, if
it is an evolved kind of meta rationality

1143
01:47:53,159 --> 01:47:57,000
that is being manifest in stories that
cause people to behave in ways that Sam

1144
01:47:57,079 --> 01:48:01,279
sees is clearly irrational, then we
are with the naturalistic fallacy, which is

1145
01:48:01,359 --> 01:48:04,640
to say, so for those who
don't know, the naturalistic fallacy says that

1146
01:48:04,840 --> 01:48:11,119
just because something is doesn't mean it
ought right. The fact that selection fails

1147
01:48:11,199 --> 01:48:15,439
something doesn't make it good. Here
we are finally an hour and thirteen and

1148
01:48:15,520 --> 01:48:20,319
Brett Weinstein has spoke up with the
argument, and we've seen Sam Harris continually

1149
01:48:20,439 --> 01:48:26,079
flounder at the basics of the ISOT. We've already done multiple videos on this,

1150
01:48:26,359 --> 01:48:31,239
and the video that we did analyzing
his floundering on the IZOT was years

1151
01:48:31,279 --> 01:48:35,039
after this video. So if he
didn't get it years after this, I

1152
01:48:35,159 --> 01:48:39,079
as sure as hell can tell you
that he didn't get it before that.

1153
01:48:39,279 --> 01:48:45,199
As tech's sacrificed their enemies. It
is good for continuing as technists, but

1154
01:48:45,279 --> 01:48:48,760
it may not be good in some
absolute moral sense. So here's the question

1155
01:48:48,920 --> 01:48:56,079
for you. You're arguing for,
I think an evolutionarily very viable explanation for

1156
01:48:56,439 --> 01:49:00,199
religious belief and dogma, But aren't
you stuck with the downside of it,

1157
01:49:00,439 --> 01:49:03,479
where much of what is encoded in
that way may act. Yeah, by

1158
01:49:03,520 --> 01:49:10,960
the way, this might actually also
point out the flaw in Jordan Peterson's evolutionary

1159
01:49:11,039 --> 01:49:16,720
account of religion be abhorrent and conscious
absolutely, Okay, So what do we

1160
01:49:16,960 --> 01:49:21,720
do about? Well, this is
exactly at algorithm. Yes, what I'm

1161
01:49:21,760 --> 01:49:25,560
trying to get to it. Okay, okay, so this is actually why

1162
01:49:25,600 --> 01:49:28,359
I asked Sam this question. It
wasn't. It wasn't an attack. It's

1163
01:49:28,439 --> 01:49:32,000
like, okay, so look,
people have these belief systems. Christian Muslim,

1164
01:49:32,079 --> 01:49:35,680
jew will say for that, and
you're saying abandon those, let's say

1165
01:49:35,840 --> 01:49:41,560
to to and move towards this transcendent
rationality. It's like, okay, two

1166
01:49:41,640 --> 01:49:45,039
problems. It's not so easy to
abandon the belief system because you end up

1167
01:49:45,039 --> 01:49:49,119
in the morally relativist nihilist pitt.
Well, that's a problem. One doesn't

1168
01:49:49,159 --> 01:49:56,239
have to. Well, people tend
to, and so it's a they don't

1169
01:49:56,279 --> 01:50:00,680
have to. That's that's that's an
empirical claim that we They would have to

1170
01:50:00,720 --> 01:50:02,960
find out whether that's true. There's
a lot of evidence against that. Yeah,

1171
01:50:03,159 --> 01:50:05,880
well there's plenty of evidence for it
too. But it's beside the point

1172
01:50:05,920 --> 01:50:09,800
to some degree, because that isn't
that isn't something that I want to quibble

1173
01:50:09,800 --> 01:50:13,239
about. There. Perhaps there are
trends, there are transitional paths, and

1174
01:50:13,359 --> 01:50:16,640
sometimes people find a collapse of their
faith actually freeing. It's certainly the case

1175
01:50:16,680 --> 01:50:20,600
that many of the people who are
are happy about what you're doing have found

1176
01:50:20,640 --> 01:50:24,640
exactly that in what you've been saying, And more power to you, and

1177
01:50:24,720 --> 01:50:28,600
so I'm not willing to dispute that. But what you said was, Okay,

1178
01:50:28,680 --> 01:50:32,039
here's these belief systems that are ancient
and complex, and we can step

1179
01:50:32,079 --> 01:50:36,199
outside of them and there's this transcendent
rationality that we could all aspire to that

1180
01:50:36,279 --> 01:50:42,039
would solve the problems. It's like
okay, Like okay, So Jorman Peterson's

1181
01:50:42,119 --> 01:50:45,680
like Tom Coom in Minority Report.
Right, he's got like a maybe he's

1182
01:50:45,720 --> 01:50:53,239
got like like super awesome Google contacts
on and he's like playing with some kind

1183
01:50:53,279 --> 01:50:57,079
of like high IQ like supercomputer that
he can see in front of him,

1184
01:50:57,239 --> 01:51:00,880
right, Like it's like Minority Report. Maybe that's what going on because he's

1185
01:51:00,920 --> 01:51:06,720
going a finger crazy boy. Well, what it is at a minimum to

1186
01:51:09,079 --> 01:51:14,239
value all of the variables that conspire
to make the one life we know we

1187
01:51:14,479 --> 01:51:17,000
have. You can't value all those
variables? Well no, we we we're

1188
01:51:17,039 --> 01:51:19,399
doing it right, We do it
every day. And how we organize we

1189
01:51:19,479 --> 01:51:25,119
do because we apply an a priori
framework to the variables to reduce them to

1190
01:51:25,159 --> 01:51:28,279
a tiny subset that we can manage
and it's the nature of that A Priori

1191
01:51:28,319 --> 01:51:33,279
framework that we haven't this. I
guarantee you ninety five percent of this audience

1192
01:51:33,479 --> 01:51:36,920
does not know what Jordan Peterson is
talking about. With an a Priori framework,

1193
01:51:38,000 --> 01:51:45,560
which he's talking about the presubsitional categories
that make experience intelligible. I don't

1194
01:51:45,560 --> 01:51:50,199
even think Sam Harrison knows what that
is, right because I just don't think

1195
01:51:50,239 --> 01:51:56,880
he's that sophisticated. But I mean, and if the audience doesn't know,

1196
01:51:59,079 --> 01:52:02,680
what are they actually cheering on here? Right? Like I don't this audience

1197
01:52:02,720 --> 01:52:06,279
has been funny the whole time,
right with their hooting and hollering and whoa

1198
01:52:06,760 --> 01:52:15,039
yeah when when it's bizarre comments that
don't even legitimize a hooting and a hollering,

1199
01:52:15,279 --> 01:52:19,239
Right, So I'm just wondering do
they even know what he's talking about

1200
01:52:19,239 --> 01:52:23,359
with a Priori categories. I don't
think they do. So they're just all

1201
01:52:23,560 --> 01:52:29,600
mesmerized by word salad. And now
I'm not saying it actually is word salid

1202
01:52:29,640 --> 01:52:31,960
because I know what he's talking about. But the funny thing is that to

1203
01:52:32,039 --> 01:52:35,119
the atheist when you bring up these
terms, they always say you're engaging in

1204
01:52:35,159 --> 01:52:41,279
word salid, Right, you talk
about a Priori cadgy words of the words

1205
01:52:41,359 --> 01:52:45,279
of transit, you, ategories of
words salad. So because they don't know

1206
01:52:45,359 --> 01:52:47,840
what a word means, they equate
it to word salid. Right. So

1207
01:52:47,920 --> 01:52:51,880
I'm just still wondering, what is
his audience cheering on if they understand what

1208
01:52:53,000 --> 01:52:57,079
probably you think they understand thirty percent
of this conversation being able to have a

1209
01:52:57,119 --> 01:53:00,279
discussion about them. We have an
a Priori framework that narrows our perception to

1210
01:53:00,359 --> 01:53:04,439
almost nothing. It's built into us, it's partly socially constructed. It has

1211
01:53:04,479 --> 01:53:09,880
a deep neurological substrate, and we
actually understand how it emerges to a large

1212
01:53:09,920 --> 01:53:12,760
degree. And the thing is is
that but I don't think I don't think

1213
01:53:12,800 --> 01:53:17,279
that's actually our difference. So the
a Priori framework operates in many different spaces,

1214
01:53:17,319 --> 01:53:20,159
which again we can't necessarily analyze,
but it makes it no less true.

1215
01:53:20,199 --> 01:53:24,199
So if you if you put your
hand on a hot okay, So

1216
01:53:24,439 --> 01:53:31,039
again he thinks that a Priori categories
perception are raw sense data, right,

1217
01:53:31,119 --> 01:53:38,199
And when they have the same discussion
last year on Peterson's podcast, he says

1218
01:53:38,239 --> 01:53:41,399
the exact same thing. When I
put my hand on the stove, I

1219
01:53:41,479 --> 01:53:47,520
pull it away because it's hot stove, you will immediately feel a good,

1220
01:53:47,880 --> 01:53:55,720
very good reason in fact, and
that's nothing to do with what the transcendental

1221
01:53:55,800 --> 01:54:00,239
categories that make perception intelligible are.
He does the even understand what the issue

1222
01:54:00,279 --> 01:54:03,920
is, arguably good reason to remove
it, right, And that's it doesn't

1223
01:54:03,960 --> 01:54:08,319
require our moral philosophy to get you
there. You don't need to you don't

1224
01:54:08,359 --> 01:54:11,600
need to inspect your a priori framework. You just have to feel, holy

1225
01:54:11,720 --> 01:54:14,840
shit, this is the worst thing
I've ever felt. Right, And there's

1226
01:54:14,920 --> 01:54:20,479
so many more. Way So,
somebody's in the audience both and and you're

1227
01:54:20,520 --> 01:54:25,439
saying that you were at this event, and you're saying that I was a

1228
01:54:25,520 --> 01:54:31,119
part of this audience way online online
some out the people in the audience not

1229
01:54:31,279 --> 01:54:34,119
online, dude. People in the
audience are like hooting and hollering, then

1230
01:54:34,199 --> 01:54:38,159
like going nuts, like they're out
of a freaking Beatles concert, like a

1231
01:54:38,720 --> 01:54:43,880
sixteen year old girl with tingles going
up their leg at a Beatles concert over

1232
01:54:43,960 --> 01:54:47,520
here, like hooting and holler yeah. And I'm like, do they even

1233
01:54:47,600 --> 01:54:54,560
know what's being discussed? As we
saw in last night's dream, moments like

1234
01:54:54,640 --> 01:54:58,840
that in life that we dimly under
that we understand what I'm trying to rescue

1235
01:54:58,840 --> 01:55:02,000
your chug from a fire exactly,
then you have you have some other goal,

1236
01:55:02,319 --> 01:55:06,239
right, it can cause you to
brave that that suffering, right,

1237
01:55:06,439 --> 01:55:11,199
Yes, and but again, trying
to rescue your child from a fire is

1238
01:55:11,840 --> 01:55:17,359
pretty close to as the hot stove
in not needing to be analyzed, right,

1239
01:55:17,439 --> 01:55:21,640
the imperative to rescue your It becomes
harder when you have to rescue someone

1240
01:55:21,680 --> 01:55:28,119
else's child from a fire. And
you're so this has nothing to do with

1241
01:55:28,399 --> 01:55:36,359
the status of transcendal categories, categories
of of possible intelligibility of perception. This

1242
01:55:36,439 --> 01:55:41,279
has nothing to do with that.
He's just resorting to, well, we

1243
01:55:41,399 --> 01:55:45,720
have sense data, we have raw
sense data, and you don't need to

1244
01:55:46,079 --> 01:55:53,600
analyze a priori categories of perception to
know that hot hurts you. Nothing to

1245
01:55:53,680 --> 01:55:56,960
do with Okay, that's not that's
not even in question. What does that

1246
01:55:57,000 --> 01:56:02,560
have to do with the issue of
transnital category is a perception? Nothing,

1247
01:56:04,800 --> 01:56:10,079
And you're worried about orphaning your child
who's standing next to you on the sidewalk,

1248
01:56:10,199 --> 01:56:12,600
right, Then we get into the
domain of moral philosophy, and then

1249
01:56:12,640 --> 01:56:15,600
you can say, well, you
know what, do what how much do

1250
01:56:15,720 --> 01:56:18,399
each of us owe the children of
other people? Right? How much should

1251
01:56:18,399 --> 01:56:23,680
I risk my life and risk orphaning
my child to rescue your child. That's

1252
01:56:23,760 --> 01:56:27,720
when things get interesting in a philosophy
seminar, and that's where people begin to

1253
01:56:27,760 --> 01:56:31,800
hesitate. People begin to we we
are biased toward protecting ourselves, protecting our

1254
01:56:31,880 --> 01:56:35,199
kin, protecting our friends. And
only then do we begin to extend the

1255
01:56:35,279 --> 01:56:41,960
circle and again moral, but this
is not a mystery where we want to

1256
01:56:42,000 --> 01:56:45,279
go here. We want to extend
the circle more and more and build institutions

1257
01:56:45,319 --> 01:56:53,560
and societies that that that implement our
best selves at our best moments more and

1258
01:56:53,640 --> 01:56:59,359
more. It makes it more effortless
to be good. In't take your example,

1259
01:57:00,319 --> 01:57:03,720
I had anything to do with the
questions that Jordan Peterson raised. So

1260
01:57:03,920 --> 01:57:06,880
finally it took us I don't know, hour and a half to get an

1261
01:57:06,920 --> 01:57:13,239
actual argument, and uh, Sam
Harris said absolutely nothing. All right,

1262
01:57:13,279 --> 01:57:18,600
So I think that that's a good
bit of part three or part two.

1263
01:57:19,520 --> 01:57:24,199
This one is really getting bottom of
the barrel. Should we move on to

1264
01:57:24,279 --> 01:57:26,520
part three? Let's see if this
goes on. It's not a matter of

1265
01:57:26,680 --> 01:57:29,560
meaning, it's not a matter of
purpose, and it's not a matter of

1266
01:57:29,800 --> 01:57:34,800
ground this meaning purpose and grounding.
This actually sounds interesting. So let's see

1267
01:57:35,000 --> 01:57:42,359
where Harris Harris goes here. Objective
observation of the ground. If it's a

1268
01:57:42,439 --> 01:57:45,880
statement of faith and it's in the
value domain, how is it derivable from

1269
01:57:45,960 --> 01:57:50,880
facts? Okay? So yeah,
exactly, So this is the isa question.

1270
01:57:51,239 --> 01:57:58,640
And remember we covered Jordan Peterson asking
Sam Harris the same questions six eight

1271
01:57:58,720 --> 01:58:04,439
months ago. So let's see how
Sam Harris answers the ISAK question six six

1272
01:58:04,560 --> 01:58:08,880
years ago. We've arrived at the
point where we have to decide whether to

1273
01:58:09,000 --> 01:58:12,680
go to Q and A or to
continue the discussion. While you all are

1274
01:58:12,760 --> 01:58:15,720
thinking about that, I would like
to level a challenge to each of you,

1275
01:58:15,880 --> 01:58:17,520
and then I will pull the audience
and see what they think about Q

1276
01:58:17,640 --> 01:58:26,680
and A. Okay, So Jordan
is arguing to you that you cannot ground

1277
01:58:27,000 --> 01:58:34,159
the values that would undergird the modality
of increasing well being in anything factual,

1278
01:58:35,119 --> 01:58:42,640
and you are arguing in response that, let me just argue in respects hold

1279
01:58:42,640 --> 01:58:45,680
on, not without an intermediary strug. What I've heard you argue is something

1280
01:58:45,720 --> 01:58:50,079
that I agree with, which is
that you can ground many things in a

1281
01:58:50,399 --> 01:58:58,840
nearly objective observation of the universe,
but it doesn't say anything about the value

1282
01:58:58,920 --> 01:59:00,680
part of the equation. And in
fact, I think, having thought about

1283
01:59:00,680 --> 01:59:04,000
the question from an evolutionary point of
view, that in order to do what

1284
01:59:04,119 --> 01:59:09,079
you're talking about to increase well being, you are going to have to accept

1285
01:59:09,399 --> 01:59:12,800
that that is going to leave you
with an arbitrary grounding. There is no

1286
01:59:13,319 --> 01:59:15,479
absolute ground for it, and you're
going to really hour and a half,

1287
01:59:15,960 --> 01:59:21,840
we're still hitting at the main point. Just simply accept that it's going to

1288
01:59:21,920 --> 01:59:26,920
make you arbitrary, that you are
in fact going to have to do inconsistent

1289
01:59:27,079 --> 01:59:32,199
things like decide to honor the love
of a mother for her child and dishonor

1290
01:59:32,479 --> 01:59:39,920
the love of country that causes one
population to gas another population. That's inconsistent,

1291
01:59:40,039 --> 01:59:42,640
and then you need to embrace that
kind of inconsistency. I mean,

1292
01:59:42,800 --> 01:59:45,239
it's just a different I don't think
that we even have the grounding problem.

1293
01:59:45,279 --> 01:59:50,439
I think it's a pseudo problem.
I think we have which dot. Yeah,

1294
01:59:51,000 --> 01:59:55,960
so at least Jordan Peterson is calling
out some of this bullshit sophistry from

1295
01:59:56,199 --> 02:00:00,720
Sam Harris, right, and uh, this is a classic just to say

1296
02:00:00,760 --> 02:00:03,680
it's just it's not a problem it's
a pseudo problem, even though he just

1297
02:00:03,800 --> 02:00:08,520
earlier said it's a problem that philosophers
have, it's not a real problem,

1298
02:00:09,000 --> 02:00:11,039
And then he says a minute later, by the way, I'm a moral

1299
02:00:11,079 --> 02:00:15,760
philosopher. Yeah, so you should
deal with this problem, bro in some

1300
02:00:15,880 --> 02:00:21,000
ware we have a navigated. The
way it's grounded is the acknowledgment that what

1301
02:00:21,119 --> 02:00:28,359
we have is it's analogous to what
people do with the notion of meaning in

1302
02:00:28,479 --> 02:00:30,720
life, like what's the meaning of
life? How do you find meaning in

1303
02:00:30,760 --> 02:00:31,680
life? But what's the purpose of
that? So I'm going to say that

1304
02:00:31,760 --> 02:00:39,520
he doesn't know what grounding means because
and maybe I don't. Maybe you could

1305
02:00:39,520 --> 02:00:42,720
say the same thing to Jordan Peterson
that he doesn't even know what grounding means.

1306
02:00:43,000 --> 02:00:45,119
He's on the right track, Peterson, is this is exactly where I

1307
02:00:45,159 --> 02:00:50,800
would go with Sam Harrison in debate. So he is correctly going down the

1308
02:00:50,880 --> 02:00:57,319
route, the route of what does
it mean to ground? But I'm still

1309
02:00:57,920 --> 02:01:00,479
I'm afraid, you know what I
mean, Like I'm scared. I don't

1310
02:01:00,520 --> 02:01:04,239
think. I don't think Jordan Peterson
would know what it means to ground in

1311
02:01:04,359 --> 02:01:10,079
the epistemic sense, right, because
then we're getting a little too philosophically dense,

1312
02:01:10,119 --> 02:01:14,279
even though he's using a priori categories, which is pretty heavy philosophy,

1313
02:01:15,600 --> 02:01:18,560
but he is asking the right question. I just hope that he knows what

1314
02:01:18,760 --> 02:01:23,600
it means to justify a claim,
because that's what we mean by grounding.

1315
02:01:25,359 --> 02:01:30,039
But I don't think Sam Harris knows
what it means. I think Sam Harris

1316
02:01:30,159 --> 02:01:35,439
thinks, like most people do,
that when you ask for grounding for a

1317
02:01:35,520 --> 02:01:40,800
claim, that just means you have
no right to make that claim. You

1318
02:01:40,960 --> 02:01:44,279
have no grounds, you have no
right. I do have a right.

1319
02:01:44,479 --> 02:01:47,920
I am justified and making a claim. I have a right where like everybody

1320
02:01:48,000 --> 02:01:51,760
else has right. That's not what
it means, dummy, is not having

1321
02:01:51,760 --> 02:01:59,279
anything to do with your rights.
It means justification in an epistemic sense,

1322
02:01:59,399 --> 02:02:06,520
giving reason for why that belief is
the case. And as most atheists don't

1323
02:02:06,640 --> 02:02:12,119
know when it comes to philosophy,
they just think it's telling a story.

1324
02:02:12,279 --> 02:02:15,279
Telling a convincing story is what it
means to ground or us by something.

1325
02:02:15,119 --> 02:02:18,920
These are bad questions. These are
questions that, when you pose them,

1326
02:02:19,640 --> 02:02:24,640
seem to demand the bad questions.
Think it's a pseudo problem. I think

1327
02:02:24,800 --> 02:02:30,640
it's a pseudo problem for his atheist
idiotic position. Did you hear what he

1328
02:02:30,760 --> 02:02:34,359
just said? This is amazing,
but you just said, we have put

1329
02:02:34,399 --> 02:02:41,239
yourself somewhere. We have a navigated. The way it's grounded is the acknowledgment

1330
02:02:42,159 --> 02:02:45,920
that what we have is it's analogous
to what people do with the notion of

1331
02:02:47,119 --> 02:02:49,680
meaning in life, like what's the
meaning of life? How do you find

1332
02:02:49,760 --> 02:02:54,000
meaning in life? But what's the
purpose of life? These are bad questions?

1333
02:02:54,399 --> 02:03:03,000
Ah, there we go, We're
back to the chart. Any of

1334
02:03:03,079 --> 02:03:09,960
the any of the questions that I
don't like are bad questions. But wait

1335
02:03:09,960 --> 02:03:14,039
a minute, good and bad are
value judgments. And this whole discussion was

1336
02:03:14,439 --> 02:03:20,600
how do we ground our value judgments
for well being? And the answer is

1337
02:03:21,479 --> 02:03:26,279
I don't answer the questions that are
bad questions, such as how do I

1338
02:03:26,359 --> 02:03:30,199
ground it? That's a bad question. Who would fall for this? I

1339
02:03:30,279 --> 02:03:33,640
mean, if you fell for this, you're an idiot. There's just no

1340
02:03:33,800 --> 02:03:42,359
other ways around it. If you
ask for the purpose and meaning of life,

1341
02:03:43,640 --> 02:03:47,239
if for the grounding of universal claims, which is a basic philosophical question,

1342
02:03:50,720 --> 02:03:56,319
I mean, anybody who takes an
epistemology one on one course. We'll

1343
02:03:56,359 --> 02:04:00,279
deal with this question. Oh,
that's a bad question. This is so

1344
02:04:00,399 --> 02:04:04,840
ridiculous. It's it's it's the equivalent
of Neil de Grassy mctyson saying, oh,

1345
02:04:06,520 --> 02:04:13,239
philosophy stupid. Well, it's only
worthless because you can't answer the questions

1346
02:04:13,239 --> 02:04:17,680
that philosophy ask you. If philosophy
asks you not random obscure questions, but

1347
02:04:17,880 --> 02:04:24,880
very basic questions like why ought we
believe your universal moral claims? Sam,

1348
02:04:25,680 --> 02:04:30,720
that's a bad question. This is
so dumb questions that But when you pose

1349
02:04:30,800 --> 02:04:35,079
them, they seem to demand,
they suggest a space in which an answer

1350
02:04:35,239 --> 02:04:40,680
must be put. But it's it's
just but you put an answer, Yeah,

1351
02:04:40,720 --> 02:04:44,239
exactly, you put the answer there, and we're asking for why we

1352
02:04:44,279 --> 02:04:47,119
should believe that? Duh. And
he's like, why are you trying to

1353
02:04:47,199 --> 02:04:53,920
demand something there? It's because it's
your assertion, why ought we believe it?

1354
02:04:54,159 --> 02:04:56,399
The very thing you would say,
have a theist, why aren't we

1355
02:04:56,479 --> 02:05:00,600
believe in your theism? Theist?
Well, here's a our answers, blah

1356
02:05:00,600 --> 02:05:02,399
blah blah. By the way,
why why ought we believe in your universal

1357
02:05:02,840 --> 02:05:10,199
secular humanist ethic? That's a bad
question. Don't ask me to People should

1358
02:05:10,319 --> 02:05:13,239
look towards the good Yes, there's
a different there's a different way of framing

1359
02:05:13,239 --> 02:05:16,079
it. Good. What we have
here is an opportunity, it's not it's

1360
02:05:16,079 --> 02:05:19,039
not a matter of meaning. It's
not a matter of purpose, and it's

1361
02:05:19,079 --> 02:05:24,560
not a matter of grounding. Oh
yeah, yeah, Don't ask me any

1362
02:05:24,560 --> 02:05:29,119
of the questions that my position wrests
on. Don't ask me about t los

1363
02:05:29,399 --> 02:05:33,920
purpose, meaning and epistemic justification for
my epistemic claims. Don't ask me that.

1364
02:05:34,399 --> 02:05:38,359
Don't ask me those questions, those
are those are bad questions. This

1365
02:05:38,520 --> 02:05:45,880
is so stupid. Anybody with roomed
medium level IQ in the should figure should

1366
02:05:45,880 --> 02:05:50,760
be able to see this. This
is not grad level questions. This is

1367
02:05:50,960 --> 02:05:56,000
like again, these are the questions
you would have in philosophy. One O

1368
02:05:56,119 --> 02:06:03,439
one one O two stands where where
where we have consciousness and its contents in

1369
02:06:03,600 --> 02:06:08,039
every moment? And all of this
is that the light the lights are on.

1370
02:06:08,640 --> 02:06:13,600
Oh so, just a bunch of
metaphysical gibberous assertions we have consciousness and

1371
02:06:13,720 --> 02:06:17,279
content and every what do you say, event of consciousness? Just gibberish.

1372
02:06:17,439 --> 02:06:21,880
Just I mean again, just reasserting
just this is just like Matt dil Hunty.

1373
02:06:21,960 --> 02:06:26,439
This is dill Hunting level gibberish,
and they're on for reasons that we

1374
02:06:26,800 --> 02:06:31,359
dimly understand. Right, these are
there reasons that are biological in our case,

1375
02:06:31,520 --> 02:06:45,680
like perhaps at bottom they're just based
on information processing and their platform independent

1376
02:06:45,720 --> 02:06:48,840
and then we would build machines for
whom the life the light is actually on

1377
02:06:49,720 --> 02:06:53,399
or not. Right, this is
it remains to be seen whether we can

1378
02:06:53,439 --> 02:06:59,760
actually build in our So now he's
going off into rabbit trails about transhumanism,

1379
02:06:59,760 --> 02:07:04,319
missises consciousness nothing to do with the
question of grounding and justification, which he

1380
02:07:04,399 --> 02:07:08,560
just admitted that I'm not going to
answer at it's a bad question, it's

1381
02:07:08,560 --> 02:07:14,039
a pseudo question, even though he's
already said he's a moral philosopher. Yeah,

1382
02:07:14,039 --> 02:07:20,159
that's what moral philosophy does, is
deal with those questions. Pewter's conscious

1383
02:07:20,239 --> 02:07:24,800
minds that can thrive or suffer,
right, and the difference matters. But

1384
02:07:25,760 --> 02:07:31,319
we're in the circumstance where we are
trying to understand how conscio consciousness in its

1385
02:07:31,359 --> 02:07:38,199
states arises. But one thing that
is undeniable is that the lights are on,

1386
02:07:39,199 --> 02:07:49,840
and being on they reveal a spectrum
of experience. That so just gibbers

1387
02:07:50,039 --> 02:07:57,039
just nothing so pointed question, absolutely
no answer, reasserting the things in question.

1388
02:07:57,640 --> 02:08:01,600
Let's move on to part three.
I can't imagine, imagine that it's

1389
02:08:01,680 --> 02:08:03,760
gonna get much better, but I
don't know what we get in part three,

1390
02:08:03,880 --> 02:08:07,079
So let's see where we go.
Thank you for the super chats on

1391
02:08:07,119 --> 02:08:11,359
ourminded body two. Use the stream
labs function which is in the show description.

1392
02:08:11,880 --> 02:08:16,239
Superchats on my channel are via stream
labs. Here is the link right

1393
02:08:16,279 --> 02:08:18,800
here. You can send a tip
a super chat with stream labs right here

1394
02:08:18,840 --> 02:08:22,720
to support the show. Any amount
is appreciated, and I will answer your

1395
02:08:22,800 --> 02:08:26,920
questions or comments here in a little
bit. Let's get on here to the

1396
02:08:26,000 --> 02:08:31,960
next one. Continuing the most important
series, we're told the intellectual dark Webs

1397
02:08:33,000 --> 02:08:37,680
discussion in this series, this is
part three is, according to Brett Weinstein,

1398
02:08:37,680 --> 02:08:43,039
the most important discussion in the history
of the Internet. Is that important.

1399
02:08:43,840 --> 02:08:48,199
Wow, we are fortunate to be
here in the presence of such great

1400
02:08:48,319 --> 02:08:56,399
minds who ask level a second level
philosophy one O two questions and then handway

1401
02:08:56,479 --> 02:09:01,119
them aside as not worthy of answer. That's how lucky we are, because

1402
02:09:01,479 --> 02:09:05,119
I mean, for most of you
out there, you might have had if

1403
02:09:05,159 --> 02:09:13,319
you didn't have exposure to college,
you would have never had the profound,

1404
02:09:13,880 --> 02:09:16,640
deep questions raised in Philosophy one on
one and one o two in your life.

1405
02:09:18,199 --> 02:09:20,640
But now, thanks to the wonders
of Internet, you can have that

1406
02:09:20,800 --> 02:09:28,000
experience with the greatest minds of our
time, most rigorous light what they understand

1407
02:09:28,359 --> 02:09:35,119
to be the other's argument. All
of the major issues were about to discuss.

1408
02:09:35,399 --> 02:09:43,039
Whoo yeah, now we got some
pretentious brit up there telling us what's

1409
02:09:43,119 --> 02:09:48,079
up right, We're gonna we got
a new mod up there, and uh,

1410
02:09:48,399 --> 02:09:52,840
we already got people cheering for who
knows what, right, just cheering

1411
02:09:52,880 --> 02:09:56,600
to cheer. The applause light's going
off, right, I'm gonna ask Sam

1412
02:09:56,640 --> 02:10:01,399
Harris to go first, and we're
gonna get it from that. Say thank

1413
02:10:01,439 --> 02:10:05,560
you ny I first, Thank you
all for coming. It's really it's a

1414
02:10:07,680 --> 02:10:11,560
it's privilege for us to do this. Oh yeah, amazing. Wow,

1415
02:10:13,439 --> 02:10:18,039
we are all blessed. I should
say. Many of you have sacrificed a

1416
02:10:18,079 --> 02:10:20,880
lot to come here. People have
come from other countries. I'm totally imagine

1417
02:10:20,960 --> 02:10:26,479
flying from another country to see this, like Philosophy one oh two level discussion

1418
02:10:26,560 --> 02:10:33,239
here, It's like you flew to
see this. Wow, what why?

1419
02:10:33,520 --> 02:10:37,119
Why are they wearing McDonald's headphone,
order drive through order stuff. Right,

1420
02:10:37,479 --> 02:10:39,439
Well, it's like, you know, I want the Big Mac. You

1421
02:10:39,520 --> 02:10:43,359
know, well, it's like you
know the dollar menu. You know what's

1422
02:10:43,439 --> 02:10:48,920
like the dollar menu bucko? And
then it's like, what are you gonna

1423
02:10:48,960 --> 02:10:56,039
do? Am I gonna get the
McRib? Can Sam actually make a McRib?

1424
02:10:56,520 --> 02:11:01,039
Who knows? Buckle? Do you
all dealt with a ticketing system that

1425
02:11:01,119 --> 02:11:13,680
seems like it was run from a
cave in Afghanistan? Because calendar and say,

1426
02:11:13,720 --> 02:11:18,520
we're going to speak here. I
told you there's a there's a laughter

1427
02:11:18,680 --> 02:11:22,359
light going off like it's a freaking
sitcom. As we saw this in the

1428
02:11:22,399 --> 02:11:26,760
previous previous installments. You to show
up, and this is a privilege we

1429
02:11:26,880 --> 02:11:31,439
certainly don't take for granted. You're
privileged, right, you got that pretty

1430
02:11:31,479 --> 02:11:37,680
privilege all y'all people in my audience, y'all are privileged right now to be

1431
02:11:37,760 --> 02:11:39,920
in the in the presence of this
pretty you get you pretty privilege. Pretty

1432
02:11:39,960 --> 02:11:45,560
privilege means to be in my audience. You are privileged to see my pretty

1433
02:11:46,000 --> 02:11:50,880
because you are privileged to be in
the presence of an and we are we

1434
02:11:50,000 --> 02:11:54,640
are privileged, double privileged to be
in the presence of not just one,

1435
02:11:56,720 --> 02:12:05,720
but the greatest minds of our time. What a privilege. So Jordan and

1436
02:12:07,319 --> 02:12:13,239
I should say that though much of
our conversation together will often sound like we're

1437
02:12:13,319 --> 02:12:18,640
debating, will definitely none of us
are in the habit of pulling our punches.

1438
02:12:20,279 --> 02:12:22,880
There's an immense amount of goodwill here. In other words, because of

1439
02:12:24,000 --> 02:12:30,960
my ridiculous performance in last night's discussion, where I completely faltered at basic philosophical

1440
02:12:31,079 --> 02:12:35,800
questions, you must understand we're not
having a debate. So I didn't lose

1441
02:12:35,199 --> 02:12:41,920
because retroactively, it's not a debate, you see, and it's it's true

1442
02:12:41,000 --> 02:12:46,520
on stage, it's true off stage, and we're all trying to refine our

1443
02:12:46,560 --> 02:12:50,439
belief. And also because Jordan Peterson
isn't actually a theist, so it's like,

1444
02:12:50,920 --> 02:12:56,479
yeah, there's not actually any opposition. It's all performative because this is

1445
02:12:56,520 --> 02:13:01,039
a debate between a pseudo debate between
a agnostic and an atheist. So this

1446
02:13:01,640 --> 02:13:05,960
exactly that's why there's camaraderie, because
no one on this stage actually believes in

1447
02:13:05,119 --> 02:13:09,840
Jesus and the Bible and God together
in conversation, so this would none of

1448
02:13:09,920 --> 02:13:15,399
us view this as a debate though
we might stridently disagree about one thing or

1449
02:13:15,439 --> 02:13:20,399
another. So what Jordan I think
disagrees with me about? I think he's

1450
02:13:20,520 --> 02:13:28,640
worried that I. We clearly have
a common project. We're both concerned to

1451
02:13:28,680 --> 02:13:35,039
understand how to live lives worth living? How can we do this individually?

1452
02:13:35,680 --> 02:13:39,760
And how can we build this?
How do we live life worth living?

1453
02:13:39,319 --> 02:13:43,079
This sounds like a freaking mom core
song from the nineties, right, This

1454
02:13:43,199 --> 02:13:50,680
sounds like is this Richard Marx right, Sam Harris got Richard Marx or Wilson

1455
02:13:50,760 --> 02:13:58,279
Phillips level philosophy going? How do
we live life withth living? How can

1456
02:13:58,399 --> 02:14:07,399
I treat without a dreamer? How
can I think without thinking? How can

1457
02:14:07,520 --> 02:14:16,960
I logic without you? How can
I live without living? That was some

1458
02:14:18,159 --> 02:14:24,199
mom core lyrics. Bro, they
have a common project? Wait, a

1459
02:14:24,359 --> 02:14:30,520
common project? So these are the
greatest minds of our time. They're gonna

1460
02:14:30,560 --> 02:14:35,159
they're gonna construct the world. They're
gonna give us purpose. Bro, we've

1461
02:14:35,199 --> 02:14:41,199
all lost meaning and purpose. We
just need to look to these freaking boomer

1462
02:14:41,840 --> 02:14:46,000
mom core song lyric writers up here
to tell us how to live? Who

1463
02:14:46,079 --> 02:14:50,399
knew the secret to living? That's
his answers to freaking Wilson Phillips, Dude,

1464
02:14:50,239 --> 02:14:54,520
you thought that life was difficult?
Oh, you gotta go get some

1465
02:14:54,680 --> 02:14:58,920
theology from these obscure old bible dusty
books. No, the Secret to Live

1466
02:15:00,680 --> 02:15:03,600
was mom Core songs from nineteen ninety
three. Wilson Phillips. What was his

1467
02:15:03,760 --> 02:15:07,760
lyrics? I think disagree is with
me about it. I think he's worried

1468
02:15:07,880 --> 02:15:16,159
that we clearly have a common project. We're both concerned to understand how to

1469
02:15:16,359 --> 02:15:24,079
live lives worth living? How to
live lives worth living? How do I

1470
02:15:24,439 --> 02:15:33,479
dream without dreaming? I can't live
without thinking? And how to do philosophy

1471
02:15:33,680 --> 02:15:43,920
without logic? How can I live
without living? That's some that's some Wilson

1472
02:15:43,960 --> 02:15:56,119
Phillips shire bro. We used to
walk down by the rever. We use

1473
02:15:56,880 --> 02:16:05,079
to walk out safe that night.
We second make it to the river to

1474
02:16:05,319 --> 02:16:13,479
drink that gauges from that class.
That's some Richard mark stuff. That's the

1475
02:16:13,880 --> 02:16:20,399
Richard Marx hazard lyrics right there.
We do this individually, and how can

1476
02:16:20,479 --> 02:16:26,319
we build societies that safeguard this project? For millions of people attempting to do

1477
02:16:26,439 --> 02:16:31,360
this in their diverse ways, And
so many questions immediately come online when you

1478
02:16:31,440 --> 02:16:35,879
try to do that. What is
the relationship between facts and values, for

1479
02:16:37,000 --> 02:16:41,639
instance, or science and spiritual experience, or or ethical lives. And we

1480
02:16:41,760 --> 02:16:46,680
have you know, as for the
moment, differing answers to those questions.

1481
02:16:46,639 --> 02:16:54,879
Jordan is concerned that I, in
my allergy to religion, insufficiently value the

1482
02:16:54,040 --> 02:17:00,280
power of stories in general, and
religious stories in particular. That there's there's

1483
02:17:00,280 --> 02:17:07,120
something more than we just need good
stories. Bro. The project, their

1484
02:17:07,200 --> 02:17:11,959
common project, is gonna give you
some good stories, dude, Like programs

1485
02:17:11,719 --> 02:17:18,000
like my grandma she watched Days of
Our Lives in General Hospital. Right,

1486
02:17:18,079 --> 02:17:26,799
I'll let that Grandma boomer stuff of
programs, soap operas, stories, Right,

1487
02:17:26,360 --> 02:17:30,479
My grandmother said, I have to
watch my stories and then watch my

1488
02:17:30,680 --> 02:17:35,159
stories. Well, don't worry,
Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris are going to

1489
02:17:35,200 --> 02:17:37,959
write some new stories for you,
going to give you a new soap opera

1490
02:17:39,000 --> 02:17:48,399
to believe in. How do I
live without living nakedly engaging with facts as

1491
02:17:48,840 --> 02:17:52,040
they are? Ah, we don't
simply now we're talking my kind of stories,

1492
02:17:52,639 --> 02:18:05,079
nakedly engaging the facacts. I won't
to negative engage, right, it's

1493
02:18:05,120 --> 02:18:09,360
something it's calling me bad up in
here now, Sam Harris getting dirty,

1494
02:18:09,840 --> 02:18:16,520
it's getting sam in here. So
let's negatively engage the facts, come into

1495
02:18:16,600 --> 02:18:20,120
contact with reality. We have to
interpret reality. We interpret it through our

1496
02:18:20,200 --> 02:18:26,879
senses and with our brains, obviously, butwork. Let's tea jont level reality.

1497
02:18:28,200 --> 02:18:31,920
We gotta interpret reality in a realistic
way. Bro, How do I

1498
02:18:33,239 --> 02:18:43,239
live without living? How do I
dream without dreaming? How do I seem

1499
02:18:43,760 --> 02:18:52,440
without seeming? Let's getting real now. Now I feel like I'm at a

1500
02:18:54,079 --> 02:18:58,000
He's got that microphone, like Tony
Robbins over there, like it's turning into

1501
02:18:58,079 --> 02:19:01,879
a self help lecture. I think. Actually they've realized nobody gives a shit

1502
02:19:01,879 --> 02:19:07,200
about philosophy. Let's just give these
dummies meaning by pretending to be self help

1503
02:19:07,280 --> 02:19:11,959
gurus. That's why he's got the
self help. The only people that wear

1504
02:19:11,000 --> 02:19:16,760
that microphone is a drive through man
and a freaking self help guru. That's

1505
02:19:16,799 --> 02:19:24,760
it, Tony Robbins and the dude
at the drive through. Right. He

1506
02:19:24,799 --> 02:19:30,399
said, it's time to nakedly engage
the facts. Let's get raw and dirty

1507
02:19:30,520 --> 02:19:35,079
up in here. And as Jordan
told, say, stories with which to

1508
02:19:35,159 --> 02:19:39,079
do that, My stories, my
programs, my stories, and my programs.

1509
02:19:39,120 --> 02:19:41,920
It's time to give y'all some story. All y'all dummies out there.

1510
02:19:41,959 --> 02:19:45,600
They can't figure out how to live
your life. Don't worry, the intellectual

1511
02:19:45,719 --> 02:19:48,719
dork web will give you stories.
We're gonna give you some stories and some

1512
02:19:48,840 --> 02:19:54,319
programs you want to live. We
watch a little gentle hospital. You want

1513
02:19:54,319 --> 02:19:58,680
to watch a little bit of I
don't even know soap, but what are

1514
02:19:58,719 --> 02:20:03,360
the soap upers? I don't even
know. Do soap opera still exist?

1515
02:20:05,280 --> 02:20:07,520
Is that? Did that go away? Like ten years ago? I don't

1516
02:20:07,520 --> 02:20:09,719
even know what soap operas? Do
boomers still watch soap operas? Does that

1517
02:20:09,760 --> 02:20:16,000
still exist? Remember that woman getting
possessed in the nineties? Remember that that's

1518
02:20:16,000 --> 02:20:18,760
the last time I thought about soap
operas was when What's her face? Got

1519
02:20:18,840 --> 02:20:24,559
possessed? So the soap operas was
getting ridiculous. Remember that Now I'm off

1520
02:20:24,639 --> 02:20:28,399
on a tangent of soap operas.
That's why we don't get anywhere in these

1521
02:20:28,440 --> 02:20:33,079
lives, because they're there is so
boring that I'm over here listening to them

1522
02:20:33,200 --> 02:20:37,920
yep and yipper about nonsense and nothing, And it took them an hour and

1523
02:20:37,959 --> 02:20:41,600
a half to make one argument last
time that I'm over here just sitting about

1524
02:20:41,639 --> 02:20:46,280
thinking about soap operas. Remember that
woman that got possessed. I remember being

1525
02:20:46,319 --> 02:20:52,280
in the in the checkout line in
my hometown and that one that and it

1526
02:20:52,399 --> 02:20:54,680
was all over the It was the
last time anybody thought or talked about a

1527
02:20:54,760 --> 02:21:01,280
soap opera the nineteen nineties. And
that woman got possessed. Remember that she

1528
02:21:01,360 --> 02:21:07,440
had a demon? What was her
name? She's like the most famous soap

1529
02:21:07,479 --> 02:21:09,079
opera woman days of our lives.
Look at that, bring it back,

1530
02:21:09,920 --> 02:21:15,239
the possession storyline. I told you, Marlena, that's it, y'all.

1531
02:21:15,319 --> 02:21:20,959
Remember when Marlene I got possessed.
Now that's the soap opera. I canna

1532
02:21:20,959 --> 02:21:24,920
watch right there, yup. Look
at that they had They had to bring

1533
02:21:26,040 --> 02:21:30,319
it back. Look at that.
Nineteen ninety four so soap operas were getting

1534
02:21:30,360 --> 02:21:35,600
so boring, they were getting so
boring. Look at that that they had

1535
02:21:35,639 --> 02:21:39,879
to say, all right, let's
just bring in some freaking exorcist stuff.

1536
02:21:41,079 --> 02:21:46,360
Let's just go full exorcist, and
let's just get Marlena get possessed. Right.

1537
02:21:46,040 --> 02:21:50,600
Look at Marlena. She oh get
on that girl. Get up in

1538
02:21:50,719 --> 02:21:54,760
that air, girl, get some
air underneath you. Girl, get a

1539
02:21:54,840 --> 02:21:58,200
pair of girl do it, do
it, girl, I got that floating

1540
02:22:01,319 --> 02:22:03,959
flow that bitch light as a fell
though. That's what I'm talking about.

1541
02:22:03,959 --> 02:22:07,799
Lose some weight, girl, lose
that way, girl, Marlane Possessed.

1542
02:22:09,159 --> 02:22:13,799
There you go, see what I'm
talking about. What I say, what

1543
02:22:13,000 --> 02:22:18,079
I say. My memory is good, dude, My memory is good.

1544
02:22:18,159 --> 02:22:24,719
Marlano Possessed, nineteen ninety four.
But don't worry. Sam Harris is gonna

1545
02:22:24,719 --> 02:22:30,399
give you some stout writsk gonna give
you some programs in the raw. And

1546
02:22:31,639 --> 02:22:39,120
oh well, he's getting dirty now, nakedly engaging in the raw. George

1547
02:22:39,159 --> 02:22:46,120
believes that I because my purpose so
often is to wait a minute. Purpose.

1548
02:22:46,319 --> 02:22:50,760
Remember that's a bad word, that's
a bad question. We're back to

1549
02:22:50,840 --> 02:22:56,200
invoking the things that don't exist once
again. Purpose. Remember he said,

1550
02:22:56,239 --> 02:23:03,719
don't ask me about purpose. Counter
what I view as the dangerous dogmas within

1551
02:23:03,200 --> 02:23:09,360
religion. I ignore the power and
even the necessity of certain kinds of stories

1552
02:23:11,200 --> 02:23:15,040
and certain ways of thinking about the
world and our situation in the world,

1553
02:23:15,680 --> 02:23:20,120
that that not only bring many,
many millions and even billions of people immense

1554
02:23:20,200 --> 02:23:26,120
value, are in fact necessary for
anyone, however rational, to build a

1555
02:23:26,200 --> 02:23:31,360
society where all of our our well
being uh can can be conserved. So

1556
02:23:33,000 --> 02:23:35,319
I think if if, in brief, that's that's Jordan's concern about me.

1557
02:23:39,120 --> 02:23:46,959
H, Jordan Peters's got some wild
style, do y'all? Y'all notice that

1558
02:23:46,000 --> 02:23:52,319
he's always wearing some wild outfit.
Right, he looks like he looks like

1559
02:23:52,399 --> 02:23:56,479
a pall bearer in a Hammer film. Right here, right, he looks

1560
02:23:56,520 --> 02:24:00,360
like a dude. He looks like
this is some show that Christopher Lee where

1561
02:24:01,000 --> 02:24:05,559
right playing Dracula, And he kind
of got a little Christopher Lee Dracula going

1562
02:24:05,639 --> 02:24:11,120
on, doesn't he, don't you
think? But he's always wearing some wow

1563
02:24:11,319 --> 02:24:18,200
outfits. So Sam is concerned.
I would say, above all with them,

1564
02:24:18,479 --> 02:24:22,000
I like how they're summarizing each each
other's positions. I actually appreciate that

1565
02:24:22,200 --> 02:24:26,520
that's actually something that more dates should
do, more dates, more debates.

1566
02:24:26,840 --> 02:24:28,520
We could call this a date too, right, because they're talking about nakedly

1567
02:24:28,600 --> 02:24:35,159
engaging the facts and getting raw.
I know what y'all want. This audience

1568
02:24:35,200 --> 02:24:37,200
wants to see them do this debate
in the raw, in the nude,

1569
02:24:37,760 --> 02:24:45,040
don't you That's what y'all want to
see. Minimization of unnecessary suffering, which

1570
02:24:45,120 --> 02:24:50,280
seems to me to be a pretty
good place to start. And he's concerned

1571
02:24:50,360 --> 02:25:01,280
that he's concerned that in is he
gonna cry? Y'all? Jordan piers and

1572
02:25:01,319 --> 02:25:05,159
loves to cry, right, So
I'm always waiting, is he getting for

1573
02:25:05,239 --> 02:25:11,879
Calamity's about to start crying balling?
It's a difficult question. In order to

1574
02:25:11,959 --> 02:25:15,600
do that, we need to develop
an ethic, and that ethics should be

1575
02:25:15,680 --> 02:25:20,600
grounded in that realization that unnecessary suffering
is worth contending with and dealing with,

1576
02:25:22,520 --> 02:25:30,840
and that and that values. Then
we end up in a situation where our

1577
02:25:30,920 --> 02:25:37,719
value structure has no super How do
I live without living? How do I

1578
02:25:39,079 --> 02:25:46,760
dream without stories? There we go
subordinate foundational grounding. And this is a

1579
02:25:46,799 --> 02:25:54,040
big problem. So generally in the
philosophical community. It's accepted universally, it's

1580
02:25:54,760 --> 02:25:58,280
difficult if not the philosophical community.
Now wait a minute, I thought you

1581
02:25:58,360 --> 02:26:05,200
had a degree in clinical clinical psychology. How are you speaking for the philosophers?

1582
02:26:05,399 --> 02:26:11,399
Possible to derive values from facts with
that proposition is that you end up

1583
02:26:11,680 --> 02:26:16,360
in a situation where either you lose
all your values because they're just arbitrary or

1584
02:26:16,440 --> 02:26:22,159
you or you have to ground them
in something that isn't that that's that's revelatory.

1585
02:26:22,440 --> 02:26:26,600
And Sam is concerned that, Ah, there we go, finally,

1586
02:26:26,799 --> 02:26:33,559
revelational epistemology, grounding it in revelation. There we go. So this is

1587
02:26:33,680 --> 02:26:39,559
like sixth the sixth hour of this
debate before we mention in the most daintiest

1588
02:26:39,639 --> 02:26:50,840
way, dancing around the transcendental argument. One of the negative consequences of grounding

1589
02:26:50,920 --> 02:26:56,799
your fundamental ethic in something that's revealed
is the emergent consequence of irrational fundamentalism.

1590
02:26:58,319 --> 02:27:01,280
And so obviously that's worth contend with. And so he's taking issue with the

1591
02:27:01,319 --> 02:27:07,360
philosophical idea that fact. Yeah,
so we can't ground this in God,

1592
02:27:07,479 --> 02:27:13,120
which is the only possible being which
could ground this stuff. So we'll ground

1593
02:27:13,200 --> 02:27:18,719
it in the human mind. We'll
take this psychologized content approach, which doesn't

1594
02:27:18,760 --> 02:27:22,239
work. Acts and values have to
be separate, and formulating the proposition that

1595
02:27:22,360 --> 02:27:26,840
we can in fact ground a universal
system of values in the facts, and

1596
02:27:26,959 --> 02:27:33,959
that we can mediate between the facts
and the system of values using using our

1597
02:27:33,079 --> 02:27:39,719
facility for truth. But even so, he's just stating what Sam Harris's arguing.

1598
02:27:41,079 --> 02:27:45,600
You know, a huge testimony for
the Jewish people, and it's fairly

1599
02:27:45,680 --> 02:27:52,159
well known that they specifically our facility
for rationality, and that rationality can be

1600
02:27:52,239 --> 02:27:56,680
the mediator between the world of facts
and the and the world of values.

1601
02:27:56,399 --> 02:28:03,000
And so he knew though he do
be looking like a deacon at an African

1602
02:28:03,040 --> 02:28:07,600
American assembly, that's true. That's
true. He looked like a He looks

1603
02:28:07,639 --> 02:28:13,040
like a pall bearer at Christopher Lee's
funeral too. Problem I have with that,

1604
02:28:13,200 --> 02:28:16,479
I guess, if we can skip
briefly to problems, is that it

1605
02:28:16,600 --> 02:28:26,360
isn't obvious to me how to produce
an ethos with sufficient motivating power to ground

1606
02:28:26,440 --> 02:28:28,879
that conception of the minimization of suffering, say, and the promotion of well

1607
02:28:28,959 --> 02:28:35,559
being in a way that's that grips
people and unites the society. And so

1608
02:28:35,479 --> 02:28:39,959
I think that's that's part of what
we're discussing and trying to sort out with

1609
02:28:41,079 --> 02:28:46,600
regards to the potential Okay, we
got it, narrative and religious belief as

1610
02:28:46,639 --> 02:28:50,840
an underpinning to this ethos. We
seem to agree on the necessity for the

1611
02:28:50,959 --> 02:28:54,399
universal ethos. We even seem to
agree I would say, on what that

1612
02:28:54,639 --> 02:28:58,120
is, because certainly the minimization of
suffering seems to me to be a very

1613
02:28:58,159 --> 02:29:33,479
good place to start. We share
a concern with and a belief that because

1614
02:29:33,520 --> 02:29:37,399
because because in some manner related whip, I realized I was muted. But

1615
02:29:37,600 --> 02:29:41,200
yeah, I was trying to say, like, why ought we do this?

1616
02:29:43,079 --> 02:29:48,719
Just giving another reason that we ought
to minimize suffering? But why aren't

1617
02:29:48,719 --> 02:29:50,639
we minimize suffering? You see how
that's just begging the questions, just moving

1618
02:29:50,680 --> 02:29:54,920
the can down the road, right, kicking it down the road, moving

1619
02:29:54,959 --> 02:30:00,600
the problem back and step, And
why ought we follow what the majority people?

1620
02:30:00,719 --> 02:30:03,079
They always just assume, Oh,
well, we want to minimize the

1621
02:30:03,159 --> 02:30:09,559
suffering for the most number of people. Why why ought we follow something just

1622
02:30:09,639 --> 02:30:16,719
because the majority wants it? It's
just arbitrary because that's what the majority wants.

1623
02:30:16,840 --> 02:30:22,079
Dude to our ability to speak the
truth, but we disagree on what

1624
02:30:24,159 --> 02:30:26,239
that has to be grounded in and
how it has to be grounded. Yes,

1625
02:30:26,319 --> 02:30:31,280
my sense, especially after thinking about
our discussion, is that Sam makes

1626
02:30:31,799 --> 02:30:35,840
what rationality is do too much work. And I'm hoping that not that rationality

1627
02:30:35,920 --> 02:30:41,440
is irrelevant or unimportant, because it
clearly is neither of those. But uh,

1628
02:30:41,799 --> 02:30:46,159
this is kind of going in the
right direction. But he could make

1629
02:30:46,239 --> 02:30:50,639
this a much stronger argument by rather
than saying that rationality can't do this work,

1630
02:30:50,760 --> 02:30:56,680
He's going to just be like,
he has no account for rationality in

1631
02:30:56,799 --> 02:31:01,079
his worldview and his deterministic paradigm,
and not only that that rationality isn't even

1632
02:31:01,239 --> 02:31:05,600
possible if determinism is true, that's
the route he should go and he would

1633
02:31:05,600 --> 02:31:11,319
completely bury this dude. But remember, the goal is not actually to end

1634
02:31:11,479 --> 02:31:18,559
the dispute and defend theism or to
disprove theism. They are working on a

1635
02:31:18,639 --> 02:31:24,079
common project. Dia praxis is probably
what's going on here, right, because

1636
02:31:24,120 --> 02:31:31,159
their common project is rediscovering meaning the
archaeology of ideas, which we've already critiqued

1637
02:31:31,319 --> 02:31:37,440
in the multiple Peterson critiques that we've
done. So the idea is not it's

1638
02:31:37,520 --> 02:31:43,040
to construct a new paradigm. It's
the system building exercise, which is not

1639
02:31:43,280 --> 02:31:48,920
exclusive to any theism. In fact, they position themselves as the new high

1640
02:31:50,000 --> 02:31:54,879
priests of meaning, the new high
priests of a new pseudo religion, namely,

1641
02:31:54,920 --> 02:31:58,559
I'm talking about all the intellectual dork
web people. They will be the

1642
02:31:58,120 --> 02:32:03,040
system builder who will give us a
new religion of the future. To use

1643
02:32:03,079 --> 02:32:05,799
the terminology of John Vervac. So, if you didn't watch, we already

1644
02:32:05,879 --> 02:32:11,239
went pretty deep into this, and
you're like, why are you still covering

1645
02:32:11,280 --> 02:32:13,440
this? Who cares this stuff?
Nobody cares about this stuff. No,

1646
02:32:13,520 --> 02:32:16,200
Actually, a lot of people still
do, and they believe that this is

1647
02:32:16,440 --> 02:32:24,479
a legitimate, viable option. And
it's just really appealing to the egoism and

1648
02:32:24,559 --> 02:32:30,799
the guru desire, the self help
guru desire of not just Peterson, but

1649
02:32:30,920 --> 02:32:35,360
also all these other intellectual dork webs. I mean, they actually are looking

1650
02:32:35,559 --> 02:32:39,840
like Tony Robbins level like self help
people. And that's why it's important to

1651
02:32:39,920 --> 02:32:46,879
go over here and do the analysis
that we did with Vervek. Right,

1652
02:32:46,959 --> 02:32:52,479
we also did a deep dive into
Verveke because he's also part of this crew

1653
02:32:52,559 --> 02:33:03,959
and their interest is again being the
intellectual lights and gurus that will forge a

1654
02:33:03,079 --> 02:33:11,600
new path through diapraxis of creating and
giving a new meaning and a new community

1655
02:33:11,719 --> 02:33:16,680
and a new value system for people
in the future. But the whole project

1656
02:33:16,760 --> 02:33:22,000
is built on idiotic assumptions that I
need Sam Harris to help me construct the

1657
02:33:22,079 --> 02:33:26,520
worldview and give me meaning. I
mean, this guy couldn't answer basic philosophical

1658
02:33:26,639 --> 02:33:31,399
questions, but he's on a stage
and he's said to be this great mind.

1659
02:33:31,120 --> 02:33:37,440
One of the greatest intellectual discussions of
the modern world, and it's all

1660
02:33:37,520 --> 02:33:46,319
flim flam. It's nonsense. It's
SuDS, it's their literal SuDS. I

1661
02:33:46,479 --> 02:33:50,000
already shared the Sam Hyde clip,
so yeah, I heard that, Thank

1662
02:33:50,040 --> 02:33:54,600
you guys, And that's why I
reposted the Sam Hide interviews. So yeah,

1663
02:33:54,639 --> 02:33:58,680
we got a good shout out from
Sam. I appreciate that, which

1664
02:33:58,719 --> 02:34:03,360
Sam has given us quest a few
shout outs here and there over the years,

1665
02:34:03,440 --> 02:34:07,280
So I appreciate that. But yeah, Sam said, Uh, why

1666
02:34:07,399 --> 02:34:11,760
is this not playing? Where's the
where's the freaking volume at? What a

1667
02:34:11,879 --> 02:34:22,479
volume is at? Why does this
have no volume anyway? Does this not

1668
02:34:22,639 --> 02:34:28,440
have volume? What the heck?
Maybe the shorts not play on here?

1669
02:34:28,639 --> 02:34:33,920
I don't even know does this play? Maybe the devil's in the Detailsally,

1670
02:34:35,000 --> 02:34:39,479
we can get down to the details
tonight, and we've we've formed, We've

1671
02:34:39,479 --> 02:34:41,719
brought Douglas into the conversation. He's
here to serve as much more than a

1672
02:34:41,760 --> 02:34:48,479
mere moderator. And partly we we've
determined that as Sam alluded to, that,

1673
02:34:48,959 --> 02:34:54,760
what we're actually trying to figure out
is what are the minimal necessary preconditions

1674
02:34:54,959 --> 02:35:03,239
for the construction of engaged, productive
individuals with meaningful, responsible lives in a

1675
02:35:03,319 --> 02:35:07,879
society that's so you see, this
is really frustrating me because you know,

1676
02:35:07,159 --> 02:35:13,040
me an FDA, we do a
lot of actual work in presubpositional argumentation transcendental

1677
02:35:13,120 --> 02:35:20,600
arguments, and the work is then
taken by individuals who don't really understand the

1678
02:35:20,680 --> 02:35:30,239
way these arguments work to kind of
bastardize and sort of create their own psycho

1679
02:35:30,399 --> 02:35:35,840
theology, and it's just really annoying
and it's not gonna work. I mean,

1680
02:35:35,879 --> 02:35:39,559
I guess it works to like make
yourself into like a guru or whatever,

1681
02:35:39,719 --> 02:35:45,760
but but I mean, look,
people that make themselves into gurus don't

1682
02:35:45,840 --> 02:35:52,600
usually have a good end. So
the making yourself into a guru usually ends

1683
02:35:52,719 --> 02:36:00,280
up being a disastrous enterprise, as
pretty much most gurus unravel and be end

1684
02:36:00,360 --> 02:36:05,520
up being their own worst enemies,
because the guru exercise is really a self

1685
02:36:05,600 --> 02:36:11,600
aggrandizing, self worship enterprise, and
that doesn't usually go very well, stable

1686
02:36:11,840 --> 02:36:16,520
enough to sustain itself and dynamic enough
to change. What are the minimal preconditions

1687
02:36:16,559 --> 02:36:22,040
for that? What are the and
how do we ground those presuppositions those preconditions

1688
02:36:22,239 --> 02:36:28,079
and what price do we pay for
having wonder where those arguments came from?

1689
02:36:28,200 --> 02:36:33,559
Wonder where that's who's been saying that
interesting. Interesting. Now, I'm not

1690
02:36:33,639 --> 02:36:37,200
the first person to say that,
I'm just saying that in the debate sphere,

1691
02:36:37,840 --> 02:36:41,680
who's been saying that quite a bit? I think without a cost.

1692
02:36:41,760 --> 02:36:46,079
And we thought that Douglas would be
very interesting addition to this conversation because of

1693
02:36:46,159 --> 02:36:50,959
course he's concentrated on such things as
borders, and when you set up preconditions

1694
02:36:52,520 --> 02:36:56,479
for social order, you also automatically
produce such things as hierarchies and borders,

1695
02:36:56,520 --> 02:37:01,040
and they don't come without a cost. We hope to expand the conversation to

1696
02:37:01,159 --> 02:37:05,559
include a discussion of those issues as
well. Yeah, but before Douglas chimes

1697
02:37:05,600 --> 02:37:09,639
in, I just want to reiterate
the fact that he has not been cast

1698
02:37:09,719 --> 02:37:13,440
here as our moderator. Though if
Jordan and I run off the rails,

1699
02:37:13,479 --> 02:37:18,120
I expect Douglas to put us back
on. And the King's So, who

1700
02:37:18,239 --> 02:37:20,239
is who is this person? People
are like, y'all are all talking about

1701
02:37:20,639 --> 02:37:26,440
Douglas Murray. Dougs Murray cracks me
up, pretentious brit Is he is this

1702
02:37:26,520 --> 02:37:28,959
a well known person. I've never
heard of this guy who is Henglish.

1703
02:37:30,719 --> 02:37:35,319
I'm not moderate enough to be a
moderator. No, but you're you're more

1704
02:37:35,360 --> 02:37:39,120
moderate than either. Julie bridges with
them, I'm not moderate enough to be

1705
02:37:39,159 --> 02:37:48,360
a moderate of us are, But
so I want I want you to reset

1706
02:37:48,440 --> 02:37:52,879
the part of your brain that is
poised to begrudge the moderator taking up too

1707
02:37:52,959 --> 02:37:58,360
much time, because the every moderator
has found your enterprise, Jordan. And

1708
02:37:58,399 --> 02:38:03,280
the way in which you're you're seem
to be linking our rational project and our

1709
02:38:03,319 --> 02:38:07,239
scientific project with religion is is right
here. There's a there's a difference between

1710
02:38:07,959 --> 02:38:13,200
and magic is a decent analogy.
There's a difference between like way you realize

1711
02:38:13,280 --> 02:38:20,920
other people from the British Intelligence superstructure
have already done this exercise of wedding religious

1712
02:38:20,920 --> 02:38:26,840
mythology to science. So this is
not a new exercise from doctor Jordan Peterson.

1713
02:38:28,319 --> 02:38:33,239
This is what theosophy did. This
is old school Blovatsky stuff. And

1714
02:38:33,360 --> 02:38:35,840
I'm not saying that Jordan Peterson is
a theosophist. I'm just saying that this

1715
02:38:37,079 --> 02:38:41,120
basic enterprise has already happened and people
have been doing this for a long time

1716
02:38:41,639 --> 02:38:46,719
and it's just a way to create
Actually, this kind of reminds me of

1717
02:38:46,840 --> 02:38:50,959
Chroleian type stuff, right, because
as we've seen through the years many of

1718
02:38:52,200 --> 02:38:58,920
the lectures and investigations into cults and
stuff, what we saw about Chroleian Croleianity

1719
02:39:00,520 --> 02:39:05,040
was that his whole Thelma stuff was
basically a way for you to go up

1720
02:39:05,120 --> 02:39:09,559
the ranks of his religious system.
It's basically a religious grad school and a

1721
02:39:09,680 --> 02:39:15,840
cult grad school to learn how to
create your own cult. So it actually

1722
02:39:15,879 --> 02:39:22,120
makes perfect sense that they would be
engaged in the exercise of creating and forging

1723
02:39:22,239 --> 02:39:28,440
a religion of the future, given
the fact that that's really what the enterprise

1724
02:39:28,559 --> 02:39:33,399
of all of these suits is to
do. Back to Blovatski and too Krowley,

1725
02:39:33,319 --> 02:39:37,200
it's exactly what they did. And
I'm not saying that Jordan Peterson is

1726
02:39:37,239 --> 02:39:41,559
maliciously doing that. Maybe he's just
going along with the project and things.

1727
02:39:41,600 --> 02:39:46,719
So this is, you know,
this is our best hope. But you

1728
02:39:46,799 --> 02:39:50,239
know, it still amazes me that
people are like, oh, he's an

1729
02:39:50,360 --> 02:39:52,440
Orthodox apology. No, he's not
an Orthodox apologist. Right, They're like,

1730
02:39:52,479 --> 02:39:54,920
oh, he's a bridge. Fair
enough, that's good that he's a

1731
02:39:54,959 --> 02:40:01,600
bridge. But a lot of things
can be a bridge, right, So

1732
02:40:01,639 --> 02:40:05,479
I'm glad that he's a Bridge,
But I'm also concerned that he's not going

1733
02:40:05,559 --> 02:40:09,920
in the right direction. So I'm
glad that he went to Mount Athos recently.

1734
02:40:09,040 --> 02:40:15,479
That's good, but I'm also concerned
that he might not go in the

1735
02:40:15,559 --> 02:40:22,000
right direction. Then he might continue
in the direction of the temptation to think

1736
02:40:22,159 --> 02:40:28,280
that he is basically the temptation of
Preless. That's what I'm getting at here.

1737
02:40:28,520 --> 02:40:35,440
I think the root concern, just
like with any Protestant or any other

1738
02:40:35,520 --> 02:40:39,719
type of person, and it's the
same with Jordan Peterson, is the concern

1739
02:40:39,920 --> 02:40:46,120
is Preless. That's it. It's
that simple. So the danger of being

1740
02:40:46,200 --> 02:40:50,840
in a position when so many people
see you as a guru is that you

1741
02:40:52,000 --> 02:40:56,399
start to believe you're a guru.
That's the danger here, and it's not

1742
02:40:56,600 --> 02:41:01,600
coming from a place of disliking any
personal level. Jordan petersoner, I do

1743
02:41:01,680 --> 02:41:03,559
impressions. I do impressions of everybody, the impression of Alex Jones. I

1744
02:41:03,600 --> 02:41:07,159
mean, I hate Alx Jones.
I do impressions of everybody. So you

1745
02:41:07,239 --> 02:41:09,840
know, impressions are not a sign
of hatred or whatever. No, we

1746
02:41:11,159 --> 02:41:16,200
pray for Jordan Peterson to convert.
But I think the danger here is the

1747
02:41:18,079 --> 02:41:24,280
temptation to become a kind of guru. And then when when a lot of

1748
02:41:24,360 --> 02:41:28,920
people people in that situation, when
they get big audiences, they start to

1749
02:41:28,959 --> 02:41:31,600
believe, Oh I actually am a
guru. I actually am going to save

1750
02:41:31,680 --> 02:41:35,600
the world. Oh I actually I
am going to afford the ford the religion

1751
02:41:35,600 --> 02:41:39,280
in the future. I am called
to this. God has sent me in

1752
02:41:39,479 --> 02:41:43,719
providential history to do this. This
is my mission. And they start believing

1753
02:41:43,799 --> 02:41:46,920
that they get they get all hyped
up on their own toots, so to

1754
02:41:48,000 --> 02:41:54,639
speak. But real magic is fake
magic, and fake magic is real Magicly,

1755
02:41:54,639 --> 02:42:00,639
the only real magic in the world
produced by magicians is the fake magic

1756
02:42:00,760 --> 02:42:03,600
where the magician, like someone like
Darren Brown will tell you, actually,

1757
02:42:03,639 --> 02:42:05,120
no, I can't read minds,
and I did put the rabbit in the

1758
02:42:05,200 --> 02:42:09,680
hat, and this is fake.
But the surprise is that even knowing it's

1759
02:42:09,760 --> 02:42:16,799
fake, you can't understand how this
effect is being achieved. Whereas the fake

1760
02:42:16,000 --> 02:42:20,840
magicians are the ones who are pretending
to be real, who are hiding,

1761
02:42:20,559 --> 02:42:26,200
who are not acknowledging the mechanics,
the real mechanics behind what is in fact

1762
02:42:26,280 --> 02:42:30,680
effective. You know, the illusion
that the rabbit pops out of the hat,

1763
02:42:31,200 --> 02:42:35,799
and what I worry with some of
your the way in which you discuss

1764
02:42:37,360 --> 02:42:41,159
the power of story, the power
of metaphor, and the religious anchoring there

1765
02:42:41,799 --> 02:42:50,040
is that the leverage and the utility
can be had even while we I know

1766
02:42:50,360 --> 02:42:52,719
for people that are saying this,
I've heard it a million times. I

1767
02:42:52,920 --> 02:42:58,840
understand that people see Jordan Peterson's Pearson's
discussions of mythology as a bridge to how

1768
02:42:58,000 --> 02:43:01,520
you could begin to understand the Bible. And I know that he's speaking to

1769
02:43:01,600 --> 02:43:03,520
the modern world. I know all
of that. I've heard that a million

1770
02:43:03,600 --> 02:43:07,520
years. I've been hearing it since
I first heard of Jordan Peterson, and

1771
02:43:07,559 --> 02:43:11,079
I don't know twenty fourteen. I'm
well aware of all of that. But

1772
02:43:11,520 --> 02:43:18,840
the concern is that it's not actually
the case, right, Christianity and God

1773
02:43:20,799 --> 02:43:26,440
doesn't exist, and isn't the case
without Jesus actually being Jesus and the Bible

1774
02:43:26,520 --> 02:43:31,840
actually being real. You see what
I'm saying. So while it might work

1775
02:43:31,920 --> 02:43:35,760
for a bridge, people have to
learn that, Okay, that bridge was

1776
02:43:35,840 --> 02:43:41,479
wrong, and a lot of people
don't get that, and a lot of

1777
02:43:41,520 --> 02:43:46,319
people will say, oh, I
can bring all of that baggage that I

1778
02:43:46,440 --> 02:43:52,319
had, and I can fix orthodoxy
this is a common problem that people engage

1779
02:43:52,360 --> 02:43:56,959
in, and we've seen it for
years, and even people that are our

1780
02:43:56,079 --> 02:44:01,600
friends have to go through this.
I had to go through this because I

1781
02:44:01,719 --> 02:44:05,079
thought when I first, let's say
so two thousand and seven, when I

1782
02:44:05,120 --> 02:44:07,840
started looking at Orthodoxy, I was
super tomistic, had a lot of Latin

1783
02:44:07,920 --> 02:44:11,200
theology in my head. And I
had people telling me, oh, you

1784
02:44:11,280 --> 02:44:16,079
got to get out, you got
to learn and sort of detox from all

1785
02:44:16,200 --> 02:44:20,079
this Latin theology Tomism, and it's
going to take you a long time.

1786
02:44:20,440 --> 02:44:22,959
Do you think I listened to them. No, I did not. I

1787
02:44:22,079 --> 02:44:26,479
was an arrogant idiot in my twenties
and I was like, no, I

1788
02:44:26,559 --> 02:44:30,440
will charge forward and I will master
all this through my IQ and blah blah

1789
02:44:30,479 --> 02:44:33,639
blah blah blah. So I had
the exact same experience that many people have.

1790
02:44:35,440 --> 02:44:39,639
FDA he was a theistic evolutionist and
thought he would bring Tomism to Orthodoxy.

1791
02:44:41,959 --> 02:44:45,399
He had to undergo a change of
you. I had to undergo a

1792
02:44:45,479 --> 02:44:48,319
change of you realize. No,
it was Father Turbo say, when you

1793
02:44:48,399 --> 02:44:52,280
come to Orthodoxy, you realize all
the problems, and then you realize you

1794
02:44:52,399 --> 02:45:03,879
were the problem. And everybody has
to go through this right. And my

1795
02:45:05,000 --> 02:45:09,479
concern is that it's great to have
a lot of people converting, and it's

1796
02:45:09,520 --> 02:45:13,440
great to have Jordan Peterson being a
bridge, But then the concern is that

1797
02:45:13,799 --> 02:45:20,280
people have a mistaken idea of what
Christianity is, what the religion is.

1798
02:45:22,040 --> 02:45:24,920
Yeah, exactly, well, I
want to bring Sacred Heart worship into Orthodoxy.

1799
02:45:26,239 --> 02:45:30,600
Orthodoxy needs Thomas the Quince. Orthodoxy
needs all this stuff from Episcopalianism.

1800
02:45:30,840 --> 02:45:35,559
Orthodoxy needs all this stuff from Evangelicalism. And then it ends up being worse

1801
02:45:35,680 --> 02:45:39,920
off because then they're mad and a
lot of people leave because it's not what

1802
02:45:41,079 --> 02:45:43,319
they thought that it's not the religion
that they thought that they could make it.

1803
02:45:43,440 --> 02:45:50,399
You see what I'm saying. That's
the concern, and so a lot

1804
02:45:50,479 --> 02:45:58,239
of times it can be more damaging
to try to give people the impression that

1805
02:45:58,239 --> 02:46:01,680
you can make this religion what you
want it to be, and we need

1806
02:46:01,799 --> 02:46:05,719
you to come help us to save
it. It reminds me of a professor

1807
02:46:05,799 --> 02:46:09,760
I had a debate with in private
three or four four years ago, and

1808
02:46:11,840 --> 02:46:15,200
he said, it took me a
long time to convert to Orthodoxy, but

1809
02:46:15,280 --> 02:46:18,840
I realized that it was now time
for me to come to Orthodoxy to save

1810
02:46:18,959 --> 02:46:24,559
it intellectually. That literally, that's
what this guy said. He said,

1811
02:46:24,559 --> 02:46:28,680
it's I realized my mission in life
was to make Orthodoxy tomistic. And I'm

1812
02:46:28,719 --> 02:46:31,040
like, dude, you've got it
all backwards, man, this is way

1813
02:46:31,079 --> 02:46:39,159
backwards, exactly what I thought in
two thousand and seven. Right. So

1814
02:46:39,280 --> 02:46:48,280
that's the concern here. That's it
technology and the real mechanics of it,

1815
02:46:48,399 --> 02:46:52,479
you know, the fake the fakeness
of the magic, right, and you

1816
02:46:52,600 --> 02:46:56,319
seem to suspect that it can't that
that takes all of the the same I'm

1817
02:46:56,360 --> 02:47:00,680
not so sure. I'm not so
sure. What if it's fake and what

1818
02:47:00,760 --> 02:47:05,159
if it isn't. Well, let
so I would say that I do consciously

1819
02:47:05,959 --> 02:47:11,159
participate in the process that you described, but you see, I would also

1820
02:47:11,239 --> 02:47:13,959
make the case and this is certainly
one of the things that we've we've been

1821
02:47:13,040 --> 02:47:18,959
discussing that you do it unconsciously,
and let me make the case for that

1822
02:47:18,040 --> 02:47:20,000
from it, because I really I've
been thinking about it a lot, and

1823
02:47:20,000 --> 02:47:24,600
I'd like to see your response.
So here's here. I really read the

1824
02:47:24,680 --> 02:47:26,920
moral landscape a lot, and I
thought about it a lot, you know,

1825
02:47:28,079 --> 02:47:33,280
and so this is what it looks
like to me. So you make

1826
02:47:33,319 --> 02:47:37,559
the proposition that we have to breach
the gap between facts and values because otherwise

1827
02:47:37,600 --> 02:47:41,680
our values are left hanging unmoored,
and that certainly brings about the danger of

1828
02:47:41,760 --> 02:47:46,920
nihilism, but also a potential danger
of swing to totalitaranism. Something we agree

1829
02:47:46,959 --> 02:47:50,319
about. I truly do believe that. And then you perform an operation,

1830
02:47:50,520 --> 02:47:54,680
a conceptual operation, and you say, surely we can all agree that,

1831
02:47:56,399 --> 02:48:00,440
And then you outline a story about
this woman who lives in this horrible country,

1832
02:48:00,840 --> 02:48:05,040
who's basically just being starved in disease
ridden and tortured her whole life and

1833
02:48:05,120 --> 02:48:07,159
having just a hell of a time
of it, to put it in a

1834
02:48:07,200 --> 02:48:09,479
phrase, and then you say,
well, surely we can all agree that

1835
02:48:09,600 --> 02:48:13,719
that's not good. And then you
contrast that with at least in princes.

1836
02:48:13,840 --> 02:48:16,840
Now, aren't you happy that the
men that are going to give you the

1837
02:48:16,920 --> 02:48:24,079
religion of the future are the ones
that are dismissing and hand waving questions that

1838
02:48:24,159 --> 02:48:26,639
arise in philosophy one O two.
So this is this is who's going to

1839
02:48:26,680 --> 02:48:33,040
give you the religion of the future. The intellectual dark web elites here who

1840
02:48:33,479 --> 02:48:37,840
are struggling with philosophy one O two
class questions like Sam Harris, well,

1841
02:48:37,920 --> 02:48:41,040
the sort of life that we would
all like to have if we could choose

1842
02:48:41,079 --> 02:48:43,799
the life that we have, And
then you say, well, we could

1843
02:48:43,920 --> 02:48:48,920
start with the proposition that we should
move away from this terrible, hellish circumstance

1844
02:48:50,000 --> 02:48:54,600
and we should move towards this more
ideal perspective. And you say, if

1845
02:48:54,639 --> 02:49:00,159
we could only agree on that then
and so like, so far, so

1846
02:49:00,239 --> 02:49:03,559
good. But this is this is
there's a couple of things that go along

1847
02:49:03,600 --> 02:49:07,559
with that that are quite interesting.
And so the first is that actually what

1848
02:49:07,719 --> 02:49:13,680
you're claiming is that the highest moral
good isn't existing in that better space.

1849
02:49:13,360 --> 02:49:18,479
The highest moral good is acting in
the manner that moves us from the health

1850
02:49:18,719 --> 02:49:22,440
Yes, so people are Yeah,
Sam Harris's position is human flourishing and well

1851
02:49:22,520 --> 02:49:26,239
being. Of course, we don't
exactly know what that is. Is that

1852
02:49:26,440 --> 02:49:31,280
monetary success? Is it just having
a coon pod and a ubi? I

1853
02:49:31,360 --> 02:49:33,239
mean, we don't know what it
is to flourish. And that's why a

1854
02:49:33,319 --> 02:49:39,000
lot of these sophistical positions that always
rely on very vague things, right,

1855
02:49:39,440 --> 02:49:43,399
which appeals to a lot of people. So you can boil things down to

1856
02:49:43,920 --> 02:49:46,799
look, I just want to get
down to the basics. I want to

1857
02:49:46,840 --> 02:49:50,040
have a few I want to have
a basic principle we can all agree on,

1858
02:49:50,079 --> 02:49:52,920
and then we'll work from there that
we should all experience well being what

1859
02:49:54,360 --> 02:49:58,319
I mean, just so vague in
general. This is the old trick of

1860
02:50:00,840 --> 02:50:03,719
This is the old Dalai Lama trick. Right, So you say a bunch

1861
02:50:03,799 --> 02:50:09,799
of deep sounding things, but what
you've actually said is nothing, right,

1862
02:50:11,040 --> 02:50:16,639
And it's so vague and so general
that your thing that you've actually said that's

1863
02:50:16,719 --> 02:50:26,760
nothing is mystery Men level stuff.
Right, do y'all know the Sphinx and

1864
02:50:26,879 --> 02:50:39,000
Mystery Men? This was a pretty
genius level trying to find the good clip.

1865
02:50:41,239 --> 02:50:45,159
And I'm not gonna play the clip
because it'll ding the copyright. But

1866
02:50:46,159 --> 02:50:50,079
they're making fun of the Dalai Lama
in the Sphinx, which is pretty funny

1867
02:50:50,120 --> 02:50:56,559
because everything he says is just he
just flips the phrases. Right, So

1868
02:50:58,079 --> 02:51:01,719
you know, in order to not
be controlled by your emotions, your emotions

1869
02:51:01,760 --> 02:51:03,000
cannot control you. You know,
just a bunch of gibbers like this,

1870
02:51:03,200 --> 02:51:09,559
Right. So there's that clip,
and that's really all you're getting from these

1871
02:51:09,600 --> 02:51:13,600
people too, Right, it's the
same type of boil it down to these

1872
02:51:13,719 --> 02:51:20,600
really abstract, meaningless phrases like let's
all focus on well being. In fact,

1873
02:51:20,639 --> 02:51:24,559
it's not very far from what the
New Agers do, the New Agers

1874
02:51:24,639 --> 02:51:26,879
that you know, consciousness, Gibberish
movement, this kind of stuff, right,

1875
02:51:28,159 --> 02:51:31,040
I mean, it's almost like Sam
Harris says, yeah, Tony Robbins

1876
02:51:31,079 --> 02:51:33,440
gives more useful information, then we
need to figure out how we all agree

1877
02:51:33,479 --> 02:51:37,600
on how to create well being.
It's like, I mean, literally every

1878
02:51:37,639 --> 02:51:45,000
New Age guru can say that let's
focus on consciousness and improving and raising our

1879
02:51:45,120 --> 02:51:50,399
vibrational frequencies to higher well being.
I mean, it's just like what me

1880
02:51:50,920 --> 02:51:54,319
to the desirable domain. It seems
to me to be implicit in your argument.

1881
02:51:54,360 --> 02:51:58,600
So there's a pattern of behavior that
constitutes the ethic. Well, but

1882
02:51:58,719 --> 02:52:05,680
that's what I'm saying. It's weaponized
vagary. It's intentionally vague. It's intentionally

1883
02:52:05,760 --> 02:52:09,479
vague because that's the old guru trick. Dude, that's the that's mystery Man's

1884
02:52:09,520 --> 02:52:16,840
point, that the gurus trick is
to be intentionally vague the conscious gibberish movement

1885
02:52:16,920 --> 02:52:24,200
exactly. And you say, well, wait a minute, it couldn't be

1886
02:52:24,280 --> 02:52:28,040
that easy. Oh, really,
have you seen till Swan. Did you

1887
02:52:28,120 --> 02:52:35,319
see did you see the the I
mean, she's got over a million followers,

1888
02:52:35,360 --> 02:52:37,399
now, okay, I remember when
she had like eighty thousand followers,

1889
02:52:41,239 --> 02:52:46,639
and I mean this check is like
nuts, right, and she's already had

1890
02:52:46,040 --> 02:52:50,360
we watched the documentary, We did
a whole stream on her. But I

1891
02:52:50,440 --> 02:52:58,559
can understand now why people believe the
intellectual Dark Web stuff because millions millions of

1892
02:52:58,600 --> 02:53:07,200
people follow her. And I mean
she says some wild stuff. Bro.

1893
02:53:07,559 --> 02:53:13,120
She says like you can unlive and
it doesn't matter because death is an illusion.

1894
02:53:13,840 --> 02:53:28,719
I mean what. But I guess
till Swan is a good gauge that

1895
02:53:30,399 --> 02:53:35,760
people will believe like absolutely crazy,
you know what I mean, Like they'll

1896
02:53:35,760 --> 02:53:43,319
believe in this wild nonsense. So
they're probably trying to probably trying to tap

1897
02:53:43,399 --> 02:53:46,159
into the guru market, you know
what I mean, Like the guru market.

1898
02:53:48,079 --> 02:53:52,079
That's a big market. I mean, till Swan's got almost two million

1899
02:53:52,280 --> 02:53:56,280
followers. And have you ever listened
to what til Swan says. I mean,

1900
02:53:58,000 --> 02:54:03,920
it's crazy, dude. So now
I'm starting to I'm actually starting to

1901
02:54:03,040 --> 02:54:09,680
rethink this. I'm starting to think
this isn't even this isn't a philosophy,

1902
02:54:09,799 --> 02:54:11,719
psychology, that this is just the
guru market. That's what I started.

1903
02:54:11,719 --> 02:54:16,959
That's I think the new intellectual dark
web thing dark web is actually just the

1904
02:54:18,040 --> 02:54:24,079
guru market reborn, That's what it
is. But they're trying to appeal to

1905
02:54:24,239 --> 02:54:30,520
a broader set maybe than the new
age idiots, don't you think? Is

1906
02:54:30,559 --> 02:54:35,840
that what's going on? Because how
popular do you think Sam Harris? Who

1907
02:54:35,840 --> 02:54:39,079
he thinks more popular, Sam Harris
or til Swan. That's actually might be

1908
02:54:39,120 --> 02:54:48,920
a tough question. How many followers
does he have? Okay, so he

1909
02:54:50,000 --> 02:55:09,000
didn't even have a million? That's
crazy. So Sam Harris has six hundred

1910
02:55:09,000 --> 02:55:13,680
and thirty eight thousand followers. Now
it's true maybe Teal Swan bought followers,

1911
02:55:13,719 --> 02:55:18,079
so that that could also be the
case. She might not be as famous.

1912
02:55:18,479 --> 02:55:22,600
So let's see, she's not very
big on Twitter, so let's see.

1913
02:55:22,639 --> 02:55:26,879
But she also has like a million
or two on Facebook, so keep

1914
02:55:26,920 --> 02:55:30,440
that in mind. So let's see
what Sam Harris is at on Twitter.

1915
02:55:31,639 --> 02:55:41,440
That's not the right Sam Harris.
Is Sam Harris not on Twitter? No?

1916
02:55:41,799 --> 02:55:46,559
Is that him? Well he's not
big on Twitter either, So Teal

1917
02:55:46,639 --> 02:55:50,760
Swan and Sam Harris are both not
big on Twitter. Which is interesting.

1918
02:55:56,760 --> 02:56:01,239
But and I think you're saying,
does this matter? No, it actually

1919
02:56:01,319 --> 02:56:13,280
does matter, because let's see what's
over going on over here on on Facebook

1920
02:56:13,399 --> 02:56:20,120
just out of curiosities, just out
of curiosities, two point three million.

1921
02:56:20,319 --> 02:56:28,200
If that's real of teal Swan on
Facebook, that's crazy. And then let's

1922
02:56:28,200 --> 02:56:39,040
see what Sam Harris is on Facebook, so five hundred thousand, So that's

1923
02:56:39,159 --> 02:56:46,399
crazy. If these numbers are accurate, teal Swan is two or three times

1924
02:56:46,479 --> 02:56:52,079
more popular than Sam Harris. So
that means that the new age guru market

1925
02:56:52,920 --> 02:57:01,159
is two or three times bigger than
the atheist materialists market. From a numbers

1926
02:57:01,319 --> 02:57:05,280
standpoint, it actually would make sense
for Sam Harris to start moving into the

1927
02:57:05,479 --> 02:57:11,600
self help guru domain. Right,
that's crazy. Can you believe that?

1928
02:57:13,639 --> 02:57:18,680
I mean, if you don't know
about teal Swan, I would say,

1929
02:57:18,799 --> 02:57:28,120
just watch this podcast that we did, and it's worth it because I'm more

1930
02:57:28,120 --> 02:57:31,840
and more now starting to think that
this is actually just guru stuff. So

1931
02:57:31,959 --> 02:57:37,479
here's the show that we did with
Rachel Ann, who is a psychologist.

1932
02:57:37,840 --> 02:57:43,159
Y'all don't know who til Swan is. Now, keep in mind, TiAl

1933
02:57:43,200 --> 02:57:50,040
Swan got her audience built first because
she claimed to have been involved in s

1934
02:57:50,319 --> 02:57:54,200
R A, and then it turned
out her stories were so wild and ridiculous

1935
02:57:54,280 --> 02:58:00,159
that it basically was completely discredited.
Right, and then she turns out she

1936
02:58:00,280 --> 02:58:05,239
claimed that she was an Olympic skier
and she was in Playboy, and she

1937
02:58:05,520 --> 02:58:09,680
was and all of us made up. So she's a pathological lying con woman

1938
02:58:11,200 --> 02:58:15,040
is who tells one is? But
she's like the new, like the biggest,

1939
02:58:15,159 --> 02:58:18,760
the new big guru, Right,
you've never heard, Well, she

1940
02:58:18,840 --> 02:58:26,200
did a freaking they did a whole
show on her, and I actually recommend

1941
02:58:26,280 --> 02:58:33,879
watching the show because it's only like
five parts called The Deep End, if

1942
02:58:33,920 --> 02:58:35,399
you want to. I mean,
we've done tons and tons of cults,

1943
02:58:35,879 --> 02:58:41,520
cult streams, We've done so many
of these, right, I recommend watching

1944
02:58:41,559 --> 02:58:45,760
The Deep Dive because it's just another
cult. You'll notice all the familiar patterns.

1945
02:58:45,799 --> 02:58:50,120
Here is the trailer if you want
to watch this on Hulu. I

1946
02:58:50,200 --> 02:58:54,159
mean, but it's not just it's
not just cloud chasing, like That's what

1947
02:58:54,280 --> 02:58:58,159
I'm saying is that gurus get to
a certain point where they go nuts,

1948
02:58:58,559 --> 02:59:05,000
and so they actually start teaching like
really weird, dangerous stuff, right,

1949
02:59:05,639 --> 02:59:11,920
Like the woman that we covered with
Rachel Anne who uh what was her name?

1950
02:59:16,360 --> 02:59:18,719
I think we covered her in this
stream. I can't remember that other

1951
02:59:18,959 --> 02:59:24,360
crazy cold woman, the one who
thought she was Gaya and she was just

1952
02:59:24,440 --> 02:59:26,239
drunk all the time. And they
when she died, they wrapped her body

1953
02:59:26,319 --> 02:59:33,520
up in a Christmas tree lights remember
that? Uh? And she was on

1954
02:59:33,920 --> 02:59:46,639
with Doctor Phil. Remember that.
Now you think you're the voice of guy

1955
02:59:46,959 --> 02:59:52,639
here. It is the Mother God
cult. This is her. So what

1956
02:59:52,719 --> 02:59:54,959
I'm saying is that it gets crazier
and crazier and you get more and more

1957
02:59:56,040 --> 03:00:00,760
demonic because of the delusion is so
strong. And that's what happened with Mother

1958
03:00:00,879 --> 03:00:09,639
God. Right, and she I
was reincarnated five hundred and thirty four times.

1959
03:00:09,799 --> 03:00:20,520
Right. Anyway, I actually do
recommend the uh. There are actually

1960
03:00:20,600 --> 03:00:24,040
a few Doctor Phil episodes that are
worth watching. This was actually one of

1961
03:00:24,079 --> 03:00:28,399
them. You should watch this for
another one of these same cult women.

1962
03:00:28,520 --> 03:00:31,639
Right. So point being is that
these are examples of cults and the gurus

1963
03:00:31,639 --> 03:00:41,639
that go nuts because they start to
believe that they are called to, you

1964
03:00:41,760 --> 03:00:46,360
know, be the new saviors,
and any of these positions can lead to

1965
03:00:46,440 --> 03:00:50,319
this. You can, by the
way, it's the same attitude of the

1966
03:00:50,440 --> 03:00:54,600
Bolsheviks, right, So they might
not have been believers in theism, but

1967
03:00:54,680 --> 03:01:01,079
they went insane, right, Lennon
went insane, and they end up resulting

1968
03:01:01,120 --> 03:01:03,239
in a lot of chaos, death
and destruction because of the delusion this scene

1969
03:01:03,280 --> 03:01:07,000
and that's in that better space is
good enough as well. I mean there's

1970
03:01:07,079 --> 03:01:11,239
the there's the question of what it
takes to move from where you are to

1971
03:01:11,319 --> 03:01:15,239
someplace better, and then there's just
the someplace that's better. There's both of

1972
03:01:15,280 --> 03:01:18,280
these well, but we perhaps we
could say, look, what's the old

1973
03:01:18,680 --> 03:01:26,159
No ant hell kids is different.
We covered that with Chiller Queen. This

1974
03:01:26,440 --> 03:01:31,520
is a different podcast where we covered
Anne Hamilton Burne cult. She's also the

1975
03:01:31,600 --> 03:01:37,319
same guru crazy mk Ultra given all
the kids lsd TiO Swan is just the

1976
03:01:37,479 --> 03:01:39,680
latest version of all this craziness.
The Mother of God woman died, She's

1977
03:01:39,760 --> 03:01:45,120
dead. Hell. It might be
existing in the hell that you describe,

1978
03:01:45,159 --> 03:01:46,959
but it also might be this is
something worse. I think. I think

1979
03:01:48,040 --> 03:01:52,799
that participating in the process that brings
about that hell is actually a hell that's

1980
03:01:52,840 --> 03:01:56,200
even deeper than the hell. So
it's an analogous argument. There's the state

1981
03:01:56,280 --> 03:02:00,719
of being in a good state,
but there's also the state of being that

1982
03:02:00,879 --> 03:02:03,719
brings you to that good state,
and then there's a state of being that's

1983
03:02:03,719 --> 03:02:05,799
in a that's a terrible state,
and the process that brings you to that

1984
03:02:05,959 --> 03:02:11,239
terrible state. And one of the
things that I've learned from the archetypal and

1985
03:02:11,360 --> 03:02:16,799
religious texts that I've studied as well
as the philosophical text is that the process

1986
03:02:16,040 --> 03:02:24,079
that transforms society into something approximating Hell
is a lower Hell. Now the reason

1987
03:02:24,479 --> 03:02:26,280
let me just close the loop on
that, because I'm pretty sure I disagree.

1988
03:02:26,719 --> 03:02:31,280
One, you can imagine two counterexample. What's he talking about a lower

1989
03:02:31,360 --> 03:02:33,920
Hell? I mean, is he
making analogies to like Dante's Inferno? I

1990
03:02:33,959 --> 03:02:39,879
guess one is. You can imagine
a sadistic being, might even call him

1991
03:02:39,920 --> 03:02:46,280
God, who would create a circumstance
of hell and populate it with innocent souls.

1992
03:02:46,799 --> 03:02:52,159
Right now, that's presumably that action
need not be attended by a lot

1993
03:02:52,200 --> 03:02:54,239
of suffering. Or you could imagine
something. No, but it's it's still

1994
03:02:54,319 --> 03:02:58,920
wrong, still wrong. Yes,
No, you could even imagine someone who

1995
03:02:58,079 --> 03:03:01,639
enjoys generation to Hell. Yes,
yes, that would even be more wrong

1996
03:03:01,719 --> 03:03:05,639
than not enjoying it, right,
Okay, so we want to separate out

1997
03:03:05,680 --> 03:03:09,559
two things. We want to separate
out these states of being and the process

1998
03:03:09,639 --> 03:03:11,479
that brings them into being. And
I do believe you do that in your

1999
03:03:11,520 --> 03:03:16,360
work because basically, what you suggest
is that the appropriate way to act ethically

2000
03:03:16,840 --> 03:03:18,959
is to act in a manner that
moves us away from Hell and moves us

2001
03:03:18,959 --> 03:03:22,079
towards a desirable state. Now,
the thing is is that, as far

2002
03:03:22,120 --> 03:03:26,120
as I'm concerned, there's a couple
of things about that. The first thing

2003
03:03:26,239 --> 03:03:30,719
is that I wouldn't say that that
mode of acting is a fact. I

2004
03:03:30,760 --> 03:03:35,479
would say it's a personality. And
that what you're suggesting is that people embody

2005
03:03:35,559 --> 03:03:39,159
the personality that moves society away from
you. I don't know what they're talking

2006
03:03:39,159 --> 03:03:41,959
about, but yeah, I think
it has an interesting question to ask why

2007
03:03:43,120 --> 03:03:46,840
some of these people get famous,
right, Because in the case of Sam

2008
03:03:46,959 --> 03:03:54,440
Harris, you know, his mother, if I recall, was right Hollywood,

2009
03:03:54,639 --> 03:03:58,719
So he's coming out of like a
Hollywood family. You know, she

2010
03:03:58,879 --> 03:04:03,399
was like, what a writer,
producer for Golden Girls or something like that.

2011
03:04:03,719 --> 03:04:07,559
So he actually comes out of the
theater world, the Hollywood world.

2012
03:04:09,159 --> 03:04:18,719
His undergrad was philosophy or something.
I forget exactly what his I mean,

2013
03:04:18,799 --> 03:04:24,319
he's listed as a philosopher, and
so you've already seen how okay, he's

2014
03:04:24,360 --> 03:04:28,799
listed as a philosopher, but then
when actual philosophical questions are raised, he

2015
03:04:28,879 --> 03:04:35,920
says those are pseudo questions. So
he became known as a critic of religion,

2016
03:04:35,959 --> 03:04:41,159
the four horsemen of atheism back in
the two thousands with Dawkins, Hitchens,

2017
03:04:41,239 --> 03:04:46,879
Dennett, I remember all that era. He wrote End of Faith in

2018
03:04:46,959 --> 03:04:48,479
two thousand and four. So this
is kind of what put him on the

2019
03:04:48,600 --> 03:05:03,520
scene. And let's see what who
published that? Norton Publishing, and it

2020
03:05:03,639 --> 03:05:13,799
won the Penn Martha Award. What
is that Literary Human Rights Award? So

2021
03:05:13,959 --> 03:05:20,799
basically this was propped up is what
we're trying to say here, Oh,

2022
03:05:20,040 --> 03:05:24,040
free expression, freedom of the press. Yeah, like because atheists are so

2023
03:05:24,280 --> 03:05:28,239
persecuted in America. Yeah right,
I mean it's just so hard that it's

2024
03:05:28,319 --> 03:05:33,319
like it's they're champions when they speak
up because it's they're so persecuted. I

2025
03:05:33,399 --> 03:05:37,879
mean, has what atheists? Has
there ever been an atheist that anybody knows

2026
03:05:37,920 --> 03:05:41,680
of? It's actually persecuted in America
with this fake victimhood status that they have.

2027
03:05:45,000 --> 03:05:46,239
I mean, maybe there is a
case. I just don't know of

2028
03:05:46,360 --> 03:05:50,479
it, right, I mean,
the whole country basically a acts like a

2029
03:05:50,520 --> 03:05:54,440
bunch of atheists anyway, So I
don't know why they would be a persecuting

2030
03:05:54,520 --> 03:06:05,719
atheists. Want to figure out,
like what this award entity is that gave

2031
03:06:05,799 --> 03:06:11,280
him awards? Well, here's interesting. So then here he is with Norman

2032
03:06:11,360 --> 03:06:26,440
Mayler Updyke, and I guess these
are atheist socialist types, all right.

2033
03:06:28,000 --> 03:06:31,760
So that put him on the map, and it was a New York Times

2034
03:06:31,840 --> 03:06:41,239
bestseller for thirty three weeks, and
then he wrote six more books critiquing Islam.

2035
03:06:43,200 --> 03:06:48,319
Who's he debated, Let's see William
Lane Craig who is a heretic,

2036
03:06:50,440 --> 03:06:56,200
Rick Warren who's a Council on Foreign
Relations fraud, and a bunch of nobody

2037
03:06:56,280 --> 03:07:05,559
weirdos. And then Ben Shapiro,
he was one of the core members of

2038
03:07:05,639 --> 03:07:09,079
the Intellectual Dark Web, although he
does not identify as part of the group.

2039
03:07:09,200 --> 03:07:15,440
Oh cool, his mom was the
producer of Golden Girls, exactly like

2040
03:07:15,520 --> 03:07:33,760
I said, Quaker background and non
Jewish, non religious Jewish Quaker. Okay,

2041
03:07:35,000 --> 03:07:39,559
so but what is his degree?
That's what I'm trying to figure out.

2042
03:07:43,079 --> 03:07:48,559
PhD And cognitive neuroscience. Aha,
but you see his undergrad is philosophy,

2043
03:07:48,760 --> 03:08:05,639
told you, and so his PhD
is in fMRI functional magnetic resonance imaging.

2044
03:08:05,079 --> 03:08:09,040
Okay, so now we can see
we can understand why the philosophy is

2045
03:08:09,120 --> 03:08:16,760
so weak because he basically did a
BAH and probably doesn't remember or grasp half

2046
03:08:16,840 --> 03:08:22,120
of the topics that were raised.
So that's that's a good By the way,

2047
03:08:22,040 --> 03:08:28,959
I know many many philosophy grads,
and many many philosophy grads shocker,

2048
03:08:30,319 --> 03:08:33,639
are not very good at philosophy.
Okay, So let me be honest with

2049
03:08:33,760 --> 03:08:37,600
this. So let me think.
So am my undergrad class the group that

2050
03:08:37,680 --> 03:08:41,079
I was with, because if you
you know, if you're out of school

2051
03:08:41,120 --> 03:08:43,840
for many years, you kind of
you get used to all the people in

2052
03:08:43,920 --> 03:08:48,959
your philosophy department because it's not very
big. So like at my school,

2053
03:08:48,079 --> 03:08:52,159
we probably had I don't know,
the same ten fifteen people over the many

2054
03:08:52,239 --> 03:08:56,239
years of undergrad grad school in the
philosophy program, right, so I know

2055
03:08:56,520 --> 03:09:03,959
most of the people that were there. I would say maybe one or two

2056
03:09:05,079 --> 03:09:11,479
people were exceptionally intelligent. Everyone else
was pretty mid and not being mean,

2057
03:09:11,600 --> 03:09:16,200
just being honest because I spent years
with these people, same classes, day

2058
03:09:16,280 --> 03:09:24,200
in, day out, months years, maybe two or three people were really

2059
03:09:24,600 --> 03:09:30,719
proficient at philosophy. And I think
maybe me and one or two other people

2060
03:09:30,959 --> 03:09:35,280
at my university, which had fifteen
thousand people, actually went to the grad

2061
03:09:35,360 --> 03:09:41,760
program. So not many people do
grad philosophy. Right, Yeah, So

2062
03:09:41,840 --> 03:09:48,719
I don't think I think this helps
me understand why I just I don't think

2063
03:09:48,760 --> 03:09:52,719
he really has a lot of even
with a ba he doesn't he or maybe

2064
03:09:52,719 --> 03:09:56,840
he's forgotten a lot of these issues
hell towards having for lack of a better

2065
03:09:56,000 --> 03:10:00,479
term. And the reason terms and
the reason I make that argument is because

2066
03:10:01,079 --> 03:10:07,280
I think that you recapitulate the essential
Christian message precisely by doing that, because

2067
03:10:07,719 --> 03:10:11,079
symbolically speaking, at least as far
as I can understand, stripped of its

2068
03:10:11,120 --> 03:10:18,000
religious of its metaphysical context, let's
say, the purpose of positing the vision

2069
03:10:18,200 --> 03:10:24,239
of the ideal human being, which
independent of the metaphysical context, it's certainly

2070
03:10:24,280 --> 03:10:28,479
what the symbol of Christ represents is
the mode of being that moves us most

2071
03:10:28,520 --> 03:10:33,600
effectively from Uh, this is what
drives me crazy? Did you hear that?

2072
03:10:35,879 --> 03:10:41,680
What have I been saying? The
archetypal ideal of humanity Christ, But

2073
03:10:41,920 --> 03:10:50,799
forget the onto lot metaphysical question exactly. Let me have Christianity in a psychobabble

2074
03:10:50,879 --> 03:10:56,319
way without the metaphysics and the theology. That's not Christianity. That's your own

2075
03:10:56,520 --> 03:11:00,520
made up pseudo religion. That's my
very critique, and that's been the critique

2076
03:11:00,719 --> 03:11:05,719
of Jordan Peterson since I made my
first critique of Jordan Peterson seven or eight

2077
03:11:05,799 --> 03:11:15,920
years ago. So I'm sorry.
Our religion is not a religion of your

2078
03:11:16,040 --> 03:11:20,520
archetypes. And I believe in archetypes. Maximist Confessor talks about archetypes, but

2079
03:11:20,680 --> 03:11:24,200
that's not the same thing as Carl
Jung's archetypes. And you cannot make this

2080
03:11:24,479 --> 03:11:31,040
move of saying that, let's just
talk about the religion as an archetype in

2081
03:11:31,200 --> 03:11:37,079
psychology and not do metaphysics and theology. It's just totally dishonest and it's intellectual

2082
03:11:37,200 --> 03:11:43,319
suicide. It's fraud. And he
just himself said Christ in an archetypal sense,

2083
03:11:43,360 --> 03:11:50,159
and then he starts talking about being. Being is metaphysics the essential Christian

2084
03:11:50,239 --> 03:11:54,760
message? Precisely by doing that,
because symbolically speaking, at least as far

2085
03:11:54,799 --> 03:11:58,280
as I can understand, stripped of
its religious of its metaphysical context. Let's

2086
03:11:58,319 --> 03:12:03,639
say there is no such thing as
Christianity. Stripped of its metaphysical context,

2087
03:12:03,760 --> 03:12:07,040
it's meaningless. The religion is not
true if it doesn't have the metaphysical context.

2088
03:12:09,639 --> 03:12:11,440
How does it people? I guess
people just idiots. They don't even

2089
03:12:11,479 --> 03:12:15,639
know what he's talking about. With
metaphysics, what is it? Is it

2090
03:12:15,760 --> 03:12:20,120
the bookstore where the witchcraft section is
in the bookstore? The purpose of positing

2091
03:12:20,760 --> 03:12:28,159
the vision of the ideal human being, which independent of the metaphysical contexts,

2092
03:12:28,319 --> 03:12:33,559
it's certainly what the symbol of Christ
represents is the mode of being that moves

2093
03:12:33,639 --> 03:12:39,840
us most effectively. The mode of
being is like the most metaphysical topic possible.

2094
03:12:41,360 --> 03:12:46,959
Modality and mode of being is literally
what metaphysics is about. And you're

2095
03:12:46,959 --> 03:12:52,280
sitting her saying independent of the metaphysical
context. Now, if Sam Harris knew

2096
03:12:52,399 --> 03:12:58,399
anything from his philosophy, BA,
the first thing he should say in response

2097
03:12:58,520 --> 03:13:03,319
is, Jordan, you just used
a bunch of metaphysical terms when you said

2098
03:13:03,799 --> 03:13:09,319
let's exclude metaphysics from this. This
is mind boggling to me. This is

2099
03:13:09,440 --> 03:13:16,959
inane. Actively from something approximating hell
to something approximating heaven, and then part

2100
03:13:16,000 --> 03:13:20,200
of that part of that message is
and this is also something that's dead along

2101
03:13:20,280 --> 03:13:24,559
the lines of what you're arguing,
is that the best way to embody that

2102
03:13:24,719 --> 03:13:28,600
is actually to live in truth.
I mean so because I would say that

2103
03:13:28,680 --> 03:13:31,319
the fundamental Uh, I'm sorry,
we're back to metaphysics now. We're talking

2104
03:13:31,319 --> 03:13:37,319
about the true and the good and
being and modes mode of being. Mode

2105
03:13:37,360 --> 03:13:41,559
of being is metaphysics. Like,
that's a huge part of metaphysics. We're

2106
03:13:41,600 --> 03:13:48,719
back to. This doesn't exist outside
of metaphysics. It's it's like when that

2107
03:13:48,440 --> 03:13:56,120
lunatic Hause came on, right the
communist and he says, all talk about

2108
03:13:56,159 --> 03:14:01,600
metaphysics is gibberish and nonsense because what
exists is pure matter. And it's like,

2109
03:14:01,920 --> 03:14:05,879
that's a metaphysical claim. No it's
not, And then he just goes

2110
03:14:07,000 --> 03:14:13,360
nuts, basically frothing like a demon
like what it is. I mean,

2111
03:14:13,399 --> 03:14:18,319
if you want to redefine words to
make them mean other things, that's the

2112
03:14:18,360 --> 03:14:20,879
only way that you can make these
moves. But look, guys, we

2113
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We'll do a little bit more of this.

2133
03:15:52,879 --> 03:15:56,079
Let me do a super chat because
I'm starting to just my mind is

2134
03:15:56,159 --> 03:16:01,680
turning to mush with this this debate. It's just kidding. It's not it's

2135
03:16:01,760 --> 03:16:03,760
not a debate, by the way, the debate. That's not a debate.

2136
03:16:03,040 --> 03:16:05,959
DC would working three dollars, Thank
you so much, Storm the Cat

2137
03:16:07,079 --> 03:16:09,879
five dollars. I saw Mike Patton
video. Who's Mike Patten. He said

2138
03:16:09,920 --> 03:16:13,799
that one time he found Elton John
in the bathroom and his face was in

2139
03:16:13,879 --> 03:16:20,280
a urinal like a horse drinking out
of a trough. Oh. That actually

2140
03:16:20,319 --> 03:16:24,360
literally grows me up. Storm the
Cat three dollars. Jordan's fingers are like

2141
03:16:24,520 --> 03:16:28,559
what a chunky person does when they
see a donut. Okay, okay,

2142
03:16:30,200 --> 03:16:33,200
you can nine O two one oh
seven dollars, Thank you so much.

2143
03:16:33,319 --> 03:16:39,120
Dog threw human up through human eyes
fifty five fifty five. That sounds like

2144
03:16:39,200 --> 03:16:45,120
an eighties britpop band. Through Human
Eyes, I play keyboards and through Human

2145
03:16:45,200 --> 03:16:52,280
Eyes to Human Ice, I play
the keyboard and I play in a band

2146
03:16:52,559 --> 03:16:58,920
call through Human Eyes. Through Human
Eyes fifty five fifty five wins the super

2147
03:17:00,159 --> 03:17:05,399
Chat Contest tonight. Thank you for
doing more Peterson versus Harris. The first

2148
03:17:05,440 --> 03:17:09,920
one is my favorite of your streams. Keep killing it boye ye boy through

2149
03:17:11,120 --> 03:17:16,399
Hume and it's nineteen ninety nine.
Another one. Look at that seventy five

2150
03:17:16,479 --> 03:17:22,280
bucks on the fat super Chet Contest
winner tonight is Through Human Eyes. Great

2151
03:17:22,399 --> 03:17:28,120
name for an eighties britpop band.
Free Reign twenty dollars and says nothing but

2152
03:17:28,319 --> 03:17:31,680
I appreciate that, Thank you so
much, Free ring tenfold hat Girl,

2153
03:17:31,760 --> 03:17:35,680
longtime super Chet, a longtime follower, shout out to Tenfoil Hager, Jordan

2154
03:17:35,719 --> 03:17:39,000
Peters and sees himself as a new
shaman pulling the youth out of nihilism.

2155
03:17:41,000 --> 03:17:45,479
That's an accurate description, I think, and we when we looked into Vervaiki

2156
03:17:46,559 --> 03:17:50,799
Fa Bankie and his project, what
do you know it Shu does line up

2157
03:17:50,879 --> 03:17:58,479
with what we're talking about here.
On a side note, did you see

2158
03:17:58,559 --> 03:18:01,920
that Tucker Carlston did a piece on
the Orthodox Church in Ukraine. I saw

2159
03:18:03,079 --> 03:18:05,200
him mention it, and I saw
Elon Musk talk about it today, and

2160
03:18:05,319 --> 03:18:09,319
so I immediately jumped into that discussion. Of course, I'm sure no one's

2161
03:18:09,319 --> 03:18:16,319
going to really pay attention to my
tweeting in that stuff. But hey,

2162
03:18:16,040 --> 03:18:20,639
you know, I mean, Tucker, where you at? Have me on,

2163
03:18:20,479 --> 03:18:24,680
have me talk about that stuff?
You got? You got Tate coming

2164
03:18:24,760 --> 03:18:33,959
on? Hello, there's better argumentation
than Tate right here. Anyway, Thank

2165
03:18:35,000 --> 03:18:37,680
you guys so much. I'm kind
of I'm kind of wearing down. We

2166
03:18:37,799 --> 03:18:41,120
had a lot of fun, a
lot of singing tonight, but it actually

2167
03:18:41,159 --> 03:18:46,719
fits because a lot of this conversation
in this debate was pretty low tire.

2168
03:18:46,280 --> 03:18:50,799
But I do give Peterson credit for
bringing in some of the torpedoes. There

2169
03:18:52,040 --> 03:18:56,479
an hour and a half into part
three or whatever, part two and we

2170
03:18:56,600 --> 03:19:03,520
saw Sam Harris completely falter, just
just folded and then folded so bad apparently

2171
03:19:03,600 --> 03:19:07,559
that the next night he'd had to
say, we're not having a debate.

2172
03:19:07,600 --> 03:19:16,200
Yeah, exactly right. I'm too
skitzo, bro, what I just lecture

2173
03:19:16,280 --> 03:19:20,959
through the books. So if the
books are skitzo, then reality is schizo.

2174
03:19:20,120 --> 03:19:24,520
Dog. Guys, head on over
to the channel and get my books

2175
03:19:24,559 --> 03:19:28,559
in the shop Part one and two
signed copies, Get the Red Book,

2176
03:19:28,799 --> 03:19:33,399
get the Medinaritis Book, all signed
copies from the shop at Jason Analysis.

2177
03:19:33,479 --> 03:19:37,040
A reminder too that because we're going
to Italy, the book orders will be

2178
03:19:37,079 --> 03:19:41,319
a little bit behind, so keep
that in mind. Yeah. I was

2179
03:19:41,399 --> 03:19:45,879
just on o In by the way, So I mean, if I'm not

2180
03:19:46,040 --> 03:19:48,840
too skitzo for o An, then
I shouldn't be. Did I was already

2181
03:19:48,879 --> 03:19:52,559
on a Tucker Special. What do
you mean, schizo? I was on

2182
03:19:52,680 --> 03:19:56,399
the last Tucker Special before he got
fired, so I'm not too skitzo.

2183
03:19:58,239 --> 03:20:01,440
You know how many followers i'd get
from if I was on a Tucker X

2184
03:20:01,040 --> 03:20:07,479
show overnight, I could have like
two hundred thousand followers. So maybe one

2185
03:20:07,559 --> 03:20:13,760
day we'll see. But look,
we all know I would bring legit content

2186
03:20:13,399 --> 03:20:18,559
to you know what I mean to
I guarantee you I'll bring you better stuff

2187
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than what Tate's gonna talk about.