WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.280 --> 00:00:03.919 Hey, Jamie, let's read from the good Book today. We got Matthew 2 00:00:04.040 --> 00:00:07.480 Chapter ten, verse thirty four says, do not think that I have come 3 00:00:07.519 --> 00:00:10.800 to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace but 4 00:00:10.880 --> 00:00:13.839 a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, 5 00:00:14.080 --> 00:00:17.679 and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter in law against her mother 6 00:00:17.719 --> 00:00:22.399 in law. Yeah, not really, the prince of peace. Huh No, 7 00:00:22.399 --> 00:00:24.440 No, I don't think so. Well, if you think this is 8 00:00:24.440 --> 00:00:27.399 a good thing, I'd love to hear why, because I don't think so. 9 00:00:27.559 --> 00:00:29.920 I don't know Jamie doesn't think so. But we have a call in 10 00:00:29.960 --> 00:00:38.880 show where you can tell us otherwise, and it's starting right now. Hello 11 00:00:38.920 --> 00:00:42.159 everybody, and welcome to another episode of Talkie Then. I am your host 12 00:00:42.200 --> 00:00:48.039 today Objectively Dan, and we are live in the Austin Free Thought Library in 13 00:00:48.359 --> 00:00:52.600 Austin, Texas. Welcome everybody in the audience today. So happy to be 14 00:00:52.679 --> 00:00:58.159 back in studio. I am joined with second time appearance on the show. 15 00:00:58.200 --> 00:01:02.159 Here we have Jamie aka the Blind Blimey Jamie. Welcome to talk Ethan. 16 00:01:02.439 --> 00:01:03.760 Well, thank you very much. I'm just quirked up. What boy with 17 00:01:03.799 --> 00:01:07.599 a little bit of lunch good reason must get dance secular style. He's listen. 18 00:01:07.680 --> 00:01:11.280 You said you were going to do the lyrics and you you committed, 19 00:01:11.519 --> 00:01:15.239 and I'm I'm glad that you did. Jamie. Welcome back to talk Ethan 20 00:01:15.280 --> 00:01:19.239 again. This is a live call in show. It is today a Sunday, 21 00:01:19.400 --> 00:01:23.000 June twenty, twenty twenty three, and we are again joined in the 22 00:01:23.079 --> 00:01:26.680 studio. So folks at home, if you ever want to come down to 23 00:01:26.719 --> 00:01:30.439 Austin, we do do this once a month live in studio and it's it's 24 00:01:30.480 --> 00:01:34.079 so much fun to have people watching. So again, this is Talkie then. 25 00:01:34.359 --> 00:01:38.000 This is a call in show produced by the Atheist Community of Austin, 26 00:01:38.040 --> 00:01:42.640 a five O one C three nonprofit organization dedicated to the promotion of atheism, 27 00:01:42.680 --> 00:01:49.239 critical thinking, secular humanism, the separation of religion and government. So if 28 00:01:49.280 --> 00:01:51.799 you want to call into the show and talk to us today, you can 29 00:01:51.840 --> 00:01:56.280 totally do that. It's five one two nine nine one nine two four two. 30 00:01:56.280 --> 00:01:59.200 If you want to call in through a phone or they got these things 31 00:01:59.239 --> 00:02:01.760 called compute us now that you can use. I don't know if you heard 32 00:02:01.760 --> 00:02:06.879 about it. They're a pretty big deal. I think I think IBM makes 33 00:02:06.879 --> 00:02:09.719 some an Internet business machine. One of those people. Yeah, and anyway, 34 00:02:09.759 --> 00:02:12.800 if you'll want to call in through the computer, you can do that. 35 00:02:12.840 --> 00:02:15.759 It's tiny dot cc slash call THH And we'd love for you to do 36 00:02:15.800 --> 00:02:20.439 that because we have open lines right now and we'd love to get to you. 37 00:02:20.439 --> 00:02:23.599 And also I have a I have a challenge today, um because I 38 00:02:23.719 --> 00:02:28.240 talked about this before Jamie, because I was like, Jamie, you know, 39 00:02:28.639 --> 00:02:30.159 Jamie, the blind line you are, you are league league line, 40 00:02:30.280 --> 00:02:34.360 cannot see and so I thought it would be great if you know, James 41 00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:36.599 Randy had that thing where it was like, you know, if you can, 42 00:02:37.000 --> 00:02:39.240 uh, you know, prove that the paranormal exists, the James Randy 43 00:02:39.280 --> 00:02:45.199 Foundation will give like a million dollars to you if anybody today can call in 44 00:02:45.479 --> 00:02:49.599 and heal Jamie's blindness while on the show. I will personally give everything out 45 00:02:49.639 --> 00:02:52.840 of my bank account to make that happen because I think that's a good thing, 46 00:02:52.879 --> 00:02:54.800 Like I want you to be able to have that. So I would 47 00:02:54.800 --> 00:03:00.000 be ecstatic. Yeah, and I think it would be fantastic proof. Yeah, 48 00:03:00.120 --> 00:03:02.039 supernatural. It'd be something. I mean, it'd be something. I 49 00:03:02.080 --> 00:03:05.280 don't know what it'd be, but it'd be something. So anyway, that's 50 00:03:05.319 --> 00:03:07.240 my challenge today. If anybody can call in and do that kind of healing, 51 00:03:07.360 --> 00:03:09.400 that's cool. But hey, this is talk Ethan. We talked to 52 00:03:09.439 --> 00:03:12.960 you about religion, we talked to you about atheists, we talked to you 53 00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:15.560 about a whole bunch of things. So we don't want to limit ourselves right 54 00:03:16.120 --> 00:03:20.800 now. So anyway, we do have at least one caller on the rhine 55 00:03:20.840 --> 00:03:23.080 and I'm ready to get started. You already, just go for it. 56 00:03:23.360 --> 00:03:24.560 Let's get it home, man, All right, let's get it on. 57 00:03:24.639 --> 00:03:30.840 We have a caller. This is Z calling in from Texas. Z. 58 00:03:31.120 --> 00:03:36.439 You are live on Talk Heathen. What's going on from Houston, Ber of 59 00:03:36.960 --> 00:03:39.240 Houston, Texas. How's it going? Yeah, yeah, we can hear 60 00:03:39.280 --> 00:03:42.039 you. How's it going, Ze? Good? Good? How are you 61 00:03:42.039 --> 00:03:45.039 doing? We're doing great. Welcome to talk Heathan. What'd you want to 62 00:03:45.080 --> 00:03:47.319 talk to us about today? Why was the guy who was like, you 63 00:03:47.360 --> 00:03:51.800 know, you everything if it's turned into a monkey on the on the live 64 00:03:51.919 --> 00:03:54.400 chat? Okay, I just want to kind of substantia that I'm not really 65 00:03:54.400 --> 00:03:58.159 a theis, I'm not really like a Christian art of it. But I 66 00:03:58.240 --> 00:04:00.879 just wanted to let people know that evolution theory is, and it's up with 67 00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:04.240 dogs. Well, it's the same thing. So when you say I've never 68 00:04:04.280 --> 00:04:08.400 seen a fish turn into a monkey, I mean, like, I've never 69 00:04:08.560 --> 00:04:13.280 literally seen a fish turn into a monkey. But before we even go there, 70 00:04:13.479 --> 00:04:15.920 in your own words, what do you think evolution is? They say 71 00:04:15.959 --> 00:04:19.040 we came from a single cell, But to say, all my kingdom the 72 00:04:19.040 --> 00:04:24.439 single cell organism undneath. But it doesn't really make sense. Okay, So 73 00:04:24.759 --> 00:04:30.959 all life on Earth comes from like all multi cellular life on Earth eventually came 74 00:04:30.040 --> 00:04:33.879 from like far enough down the line from single cell organisms, right as we 75 00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:36.160 know. I think that's that's the way to put it, right, yeah, 76 00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:41.800 at all? Well, what would constitute for you as proof if if, 77 00:04:41.839 --> 00:04:45.399 if that idea could be true, what would you expect to see even 78 00:04:45.680 --> 00:04:47.720 move? You know, it doesn't have to be the single cell to the 79 00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:53.040 multi cell Okay, but I learned that they think some sort of shash, 80 00:04:53.079 --> 00:04:56.759 some sort of water life form grew legs and walk on Earth, right, 81 00:04:56.839 --> 00:05:02.240 Yeah, but something more complicated than that that there's just the second. First 82 00:05:02.240 --> 00:05:05.079 of all, you might want to call in on a day where our good 83 00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:10.360 friend Forest Valkai is hosting because he does this for a living and I can 84 00:05:10.399 --> 00:05:14.759 paraphrase some of the things he says. There's plenty of proof the evolution is 85 00:05:14.879 --> 00:05:20.639 a ongoing, active process, fossil records, the genetics, and all kinds 86 00:05:20.680 --> 00:05:25.959 of very technical stuff that's above my head because I haven't studied it particularly deeply, 87 00:05:26.079 --> 00:05:30.040 though I do trust those that have um. And the thing is that 88 00:05:30.920 --> 00:05:32.839 it's the best model we've got right now, that fits the best with the 89 00:05:32.839 --> 00:05:35.639 evidence that we have right now. So do you have a better model, 90 00:05:36.120 --> 00:05:40.439 have a better model. But I'm saying this model you have to believe things 91 00:05:40.600 --> 00:05:44.199 in order to produce model to work for you. That's what I'm saying. 92 00:05:44.319 --> 00:05:46.800 But it's not dogmatic. They have changed it several times in light of new 93 00:05:46.839 --> 00:05:50.680 evidence. It's true. It's true we I mean our true of biology when 94 00:05:50.720 --> 00:05:53.959 it first came out. When it first came out, they used it to 95 00:05:54.000 --> 00:05:57.839 try to contentiate white people were more involved than black people that you are in 96 00:05:57.920 --> 00:06:00.240 Darwin. Do you know if it Darwin's does. Yeah, you're absolutely right. 97 00:06:00.319 --> 00:06:05.160 Anthropology in the early history of its science was incredibly racist. In fact, 98 00:06:05.199 --> 00:06:11.920 anthropology was basically almost I would say hot take invented to like justify racism. 99 00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:15.600 It's really bad if you look at it, and there's no defending the 100 00:06:15.680 --> 00:06:19.240 early opinions of anthropologists. But if you look at what anthropology has done today, 101 00:06:19.480 --> 00:06:25.639 one the frank disvolopment of what early anthropologists have had to say. But 102 00:06:25.680 --> 00:06:29.680 if you also look at what the evidence they had to use to justify racial 103 00:06:29.720 --> 00:06:32.759 superiority, it doesn't hold up. Right. We're talking about things like phrenology, 104 00:06:32.959 --> 00:06:39.199 right, the study of one's head sizes and head shapes to determine things 105 00:06:39.199 --> 00:06:43.560 like personality and things like that. You know, other kinds of metrics that 106 00:06:43.600 --> 00:06:47.120 were used to that are no longer used in modern day science because they don't 107 00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:51.839 justify the conclusions that they allegedly are purported to, you know, support. 108 00:06:53.000 --> 00:06:57.879 Right, So like, yes, anthropology has a wicked history, but that 109 00:06:58.000 --> 00:07:02.680 doesn't mean what we talk about today an anthropology reflects those views that existed over 110 00:07:02.680 --> 00:07:04.959 one hundred years ago. Right. And I would like to push back on 111 00:07:05.079 --> 00:07:09.199 one small point. You say that we have to have belief in things to 112 00:07:09.360 --> 00:07:12.720 go along with evolution, and I think you're trying to construe as in the 113 00:07:12.839 --> 00:07:15.959 trust in the evidence. I believe the evidence is true because I trusted with 114 00:07:16.120 --> 00:07:21.360 beliefs in faith, just belief without of something between us, this and a 115 00:07:21.439 --> 00:07:25.720 monk, your land creep. There's no these things. You have to prove 116 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:29.240 that an animal, that bird can turn into a wolf, for one type 117 00:07:29.240 --> 00:07:31.920 animal to turn to any type of animal for any reason. What if what 118 00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:41.040 if I told you that your DNA is more in common with a chimpanzee in 119 00:07:41.079 --> 00:07:45.000 some circumstances than other human beings on Earth? Would you believe me if I 120 00:07:45.040 --> 00:07:48.160 told you that our DNA is like closest out of pigs too, Yes, 121 00:07:48.360 --> 00:07:53.439 that's true, that will happen to be quadruple. And yet and yet, 122 00:07:53.639 --> 00:07:59.240 despite our DNA being so similar to other particularly mammals on Earth, right I 123 00:07:59.279 --> 00:08:03.240 hope you're listening here, if despite us being so similar in DNA structure, 124 00:08:03.240 --> 00:08:07.120 on the outside, right, like, we do look completely different. And 125 00:08:07.160 --> 00:08:09.879 I think that's where that kind of confusion draws in. But it turns out, 126 00:08:09.000 --> 00:08:15.399 you know, these differences in the combinations of nucleic acids can make a 127 00:08:15.600 --> 00:08:20.399 huge difference in our phenotypes, right, our outside figures more so than what 128 00:08:20.519 --> 00:08:24.759 it maybe reflects on the inside. I mean, like that in itself, 129 00:08:24.800 --> 00:08:31.240 the fact that most like multi cellular organisms on Earth do have these same combinations 130 00:08:31.279 --> 00:08:35.559 that in itself is evidence of evolution. I wouldn't expect that if we were 131 00:08:35.559 --> 00:08:39.000 all created separately. I wouldn't see a reason for us to have these kinds 132 00:08:39.000 --> 00:08:41.559 of similarities. And there's plenty of evidence is that even a lay person like 133 00:08:41.639 --> 00:08:46.440 myself can understand, like, I have a vestigial tail for no reason other 134 00:08:46.480 --> 00:08:50.200 than that my ancestors had one. Yeah. Yeah, and I had my 135 00:08:50.240 --> 00:08:54.039 appendix removed when I was twelve because it was going to rupture. An appendix 136 00:08:54.080 --> 00:08:56.240 doesn't really as far as most modern science has been able to determine, it 137 00:08:56.279 --> 00:09:00.799 doesn't really do much for most humans. Pretty much kill people more than it 138 00:09:00.919 --> 00:09:03.039 really helps me, right, I mean, that's an example of a instigial 139 00:09:03.159 --> 00:09:07.679 or it came from evolution too. Sorry, these are the mystery science has 140 00:09:07.679 --> 00:09:09.559 to figure out. We can't just they have conscience, came from evolution. 141 00:09:09.879 --> 00:09:13.639 They were proof it out at all, and just we've laid out that there 142 00:09:13.679 --> 00:09:18.440 is plenty of proof we're not evolutionary scientists. Yeah. I actually got was 143 00:09:18.519 --> 00:09:22.759 and got the proofound in the form that it's presented, it would be very 144 00:09:22.759 --> 00:09:26.720 complicated. There's no definitive proof of these things. Evidence is evidence. You 145 00:09:26.799 --> 00:09:28.840 can use the same evidence to pain a whole different theory, evidence of proof 146 00:09:28.879 --> 00:09:31.480 round the same thing. Okay, what do you believe to be the difference 147 00:09:31.480 --> 00:09:37.440 between evidence and proof? If someone was murdered out a bar and you were 148 00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:39.559 at the bar, I could say that's imperical evidence. I could use that 149 00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:41.919 to say you murdered them. I can say you didn't like them. That 150 00:09:41.960 --> 00:09:46.159 could be true. It's more empirical evidence. But a picture of me came 151 00:09:46.159 --> 00:09:50.759 out doing the deed, that that's proof. Okay, I could see that 152 00:09:50.840 --> 00:09:54.480 distinction. I would say in a legal setting, they both count as evidence, 153 00:09:54.799 --> 00:09:58.519 right, like they would both be submitted the reason that you evidence improved 154 00:09:58.519 --> 00:10:01.919 and legal and science because they're trying to get to something definitive and both. 155 00:10:01.120 --> 00:10:05.639 Okay, I work. I work in a field called e discovery. I 156 00:10:05.679 --> 00:10:09.639 don't really talk about my real job outside of here, but like I work 157 00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:13.679 in legal cases, they use the word evidence, they don't use the word 158 00:10:13.679 --> 00:10:16.559 proof. That's that's not a thing at least an American court of law. 159 00:10:16.679 --> 00:10:20.039 Right, you used evidence in discovery. So I just want to point that 160 00:10:20.039 --> 00:10:22.919 out right there, right, Evidence is the term that we use because evidence 161 00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:28.440 is exactly that evidence proof. You know in some fields that that's applicable like 162 00:10:28.519 --> 00:10:33.000 mathematics, for example, they use proofs. But evidence means a very particular 163 00:10:33.039 --> 00:10:35.120 thing, and it's important that we define these terms right. When we talk 164 00:10:35.159 --> 00:10:41.120 about the evidence that leads us to the conclusion that evolution is the best theory 165 00:10:41.159 --> 00:10:46.759 that explains what we observe, we have exactly that. It's it's just signs 166 00:10:46.799 --> 00:10:50.080 that indicate it may not be deductive inferences, although sometimes they are. A 167 00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:54.639 lot of times they are inductive. Let me finish, please, But but 168 00:10:54.279 --> 00:11:01.480 we can still make very coherent and very cogent arguments about what we know about 169 00:11:01.639 --> 00:11:05.039 our observations the world and how they reflect our better understanding of our history through 170 00:11:05.080 --> 00:11:11.240 evolution than we can with literally any other explanation that has ever tried to describe 171 00:11:11.480 --> 00:11:16.720 multicellular or even unicellular life's origins. Right, Like, there's been no other 172 00:11:16.759 --> 00:11:20.200 explanation that has had the best explanatory power that evolution has. Period. That 173 00:11:20.399 --> 00:11:24.639 doesn't mean it's true. It may not mean it's true. But why should 174 00:11:24.639 --> 00:11:26.600 I believe anything else? Well, you just said you need to believe it. 175 00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:30.519 That's what I'm saying. You have to believe it because the preponderance of 176 00:11:30.559 --> 00:11:35.080 evidence leads to these conclusions, it's the best model fits with what we observe. 177 00:11:35.320 --> 00:11:37.399 I think to let's let's let's clarify here, because you're you're making a 178 00:11:37.440 --> 00:11:41.440 distinction. You're saying I believe something, and you're saying you know something as 179 00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:43.120 a fact. So I think, I think, yes, I know for 180 00:11:43.159 --> 00:11:48.120 a fact birds, that's a fact, right or sure? I mean, 181 00:11:48.399 --> 00:11:50.840 but when when I say believe, that's because I may also think it's about 182 00:11:50.919 --> 00:11:54.279 organism, that that's something else completely Well, I need to be clear because 183 00:11:54.440 --> 00:11:58.279 when we're saying no and believe, we might be saying the same thing here, 184 00:11:58.480 --> 00:12:03.039 right, I don't want to get caught in a semantic argument here. 185 00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:05.840 When we say believe, I mean that proper, like as Jamie was saying, 186 00:12:05.879 --> 00:12:11.879 the preponderance of evidence best suits this conclusion. So I believe therefore this 187 00:12:11.960 --> 00:12:13.919 conclusion. That's what I mean when I say that that can also in some 188 00:12:13.960 --> 00:12:18.360 circumstances count as knowledge as well. But again, like, I want to 189 00:12:18.360 --> 00:12:22.120 be very specific when I use my words, so I don't think there's like 190 00:12:22.200 --> 00:12:24.840 quite the difference that you're saying here. I also believe that birds have hollow 191 00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:28.840 bones, and I guess you could say I know for a fact, but 192 00:12:28.919 --> 00:12:31.679 I do believe it. I've never seen a bird's hollow bones. To be 193 00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:35.200 fair like myself, I have to trust that that's like a thing. So 194 00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:39.080 you know, there it is. I mean, yeah, talking about semantics, 195 00:12:39.120 --> 00:12:41.320 you know, that's why I kind of want to do. That's why 196 00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:45.519 I even say anything about some proofs. These things aren't the same word in 197 00:12:45.559 --> 00:12:48.559 English and not the same words in sciences. And people do this a lot, 198 00:12:48.679 --> 00:12:50.879 even for theories. People like to say theories are facts when they time 199 00:12:50.919 --> 00:12:56.320 to use these words. In science, a theory is they Let me say 200 00:12:56.360 --> 00:13:00.879 this, in science, a theory is the highest level to which a model 201 00:13:00.919 --> 00:13:03.000 can before I heard it before. I know that, bro, So why 202 00:13:03.000 --> 00:13:07.080 don't you Why don't you say that I is knowing. You can't believe something. 203 00:13:07.080 --> 00:13:11.320 That's like you can never truly know anything. Informating you can receive. 204 00:13:11.519 --> 00:13:16.519 You never truly absolutely know anything. Then we just discovered, you know, 205 00:13:16.679 --> 00:13:20.639 are you even listening to that? Look? Look again, this is a 206 00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:24.879 this is a semantics but this is a semantics argument here, right, You're 207 00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:28.879 saying you know things for some reason, and I don't know how you're qualifying 208 00:13:28.960 --> 00:13:31.840 Your knowing things is different from my believing things like, how is that different? 209 00:13:33.639 --> 00:13:35.440 You say? You say, let me put it this way. You 210 00:13:35.480 --> 00:13:37.960 say you know birds bones are hollow. I say, I believe birds bones 211 00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:41.879 are hollows. What's the difference? I feel like a different You know you 212 00:13:41.879 --> 00:13:45.600 don't too. I don't know why you're saying you believe because I do believe 213 00:13:45.639 --> 00:13:48.960 it different, I can. I can know something. I can know something 214 00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:52.679 and also believe something, right, Like that doesn't have to be different. 215 00:13:52.840 --> 00:13:56.919 Right, what are you saying? Say again, what are you saying exactly? 216 00:13:56.159 --> 00:14:00.240 I'm asking you. You're saying there's such a big difference because you know 217 00:14:00.759 --> 00:14:03.120 that bird's bones are hollow, and I say I believe that burns bones are 218 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:05.200 hollow, and you're saying, oh, well, well I know it. 219 00:14:05.240 --> 00:14:07.919 Like what's the difference between what you're saying and what I'm saying? I could, 220 00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:11.000 I could show you and then you can know it too. Oh, 221 00:14:11.039 --> 00:14:13.879 I can show you that birds bones are hollow too. I could, but 222 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:16.720 I still believe that in any way possible. But I can. I can 223 00:14:16.759 --> 00:14:20.320 show you that birds bones are hollow, and I can still say I believe 224 00:14:20.360 --> 00:14:22.919 birds bones are hollow, right, So, like, why are you making 225 00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:24.600 this big deal that you say you know things, and I say I believe 226 00:14:24.639 --> 00:14:28.919 things, and that's somehow like epistemically different, Like I don't understand. I 227 00:14:30.039 --> 00:14:31.840 just said. The first thing I've said was this is a dogma. It 228 00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:35.039 requires belief. That's the first thing I said. I'm not going to listen. 229 00:14:35.200 --> 00:14:39.080 All knowledge claims require belief, right, Can you tell me something? 230 00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:41.279 You know that you don't believe the sky is blue? I don't have I 231 00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:43.679 don't need to believe. I know for a fact, I know that every 232 00:14:43.799 --> 00:14:46.559 day. Do you believe that the sky is blue? If I asked you, 233 00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:50.240 do you believe the sky is blue? What would you say? Blue? 234 00:14:50.360 --> 00:14:52.679 Okay? But but if I asked you, do you believe that the 235 00:14:52.720 --> 00:14:56.360 sky is blue? Would you say yes? I would say I know? 236 00:14:56.600 --> 00:14:58.559 Okay? So wait, wait are you saying you don't believe that the sky 237 00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:03.399 is blue? I know it's bo but do you believe that the sky is 238 00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:07.639 blue? Do you see my point here? All knowledge claims require belief. 239 00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:11.480 This, this distinction you're making is nothing. There's nothing to this. You're 240 00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:16.519 just saying things. All we believe is dogma and we have to require some 241 00:15:16.600 --> 00:15:18.480 sort of magic belief. And that's what evolution is. No it's not. 242 00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:24.080 And this is a strong man argument. Right, we believe things because we 243 00:15:24.159 --> 00:15:26.240 have a proproderance of evidence, right, as Jaba said, we can call 244 00:15:26.279 --> 00:15:28.840 it knowledge, you can call it whatever you like. We're still looking at 245 00:15:28.840 --> 00:15:31.759 the evidence here. That's what draws our conclusion. And the irony is that 246 00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:37.559 I stick to the word belief in something because I don't want to be dogmatic. 247 00:15:37.600 --> 00:15:41.000 I want to be able to be open to change. Right, new 248 00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:43.799 evidence comes up, better evidence, I don't want to go Nope, that's 249 00:15:43.840 --> 00:15:46.639 not what I know, so I'm going to retrict it. So No, 250 00:15:46.919 --> 00:15:50.720 that's why I stick to belief and only saying I know things. Oh really, 251 00:15:50.919 --> 00:15:54.919 yeah, that's okay. I'm not going to just believe something because ninety 252 00:15:54.919 --> 00:15:58.200 seven percent of scientists do. Okay, you know what Depo's persuasion is. 253 00:15:58.279 --> 00:16:02.799 Are you familiar with Trump? I'm very familiar with persuasion. Yes, I 254 00:16:02.840 --> 00:16:07.360 mean logos persuasion, logos persuasion, yes, use of logical rhetoric. Yes. 255 00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:11.360 And then you can't produce even a fossil of the in between of a 256 00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:17.519 fission among you, But we and we can, and we do and about 257 00:16:17.559 --> 00:16:21.960 something that can happen. They are, first of all logos ethos pathos. 258 00:16:22.039 --> 00:16:26.879 Right, using logical arguments versus ethics arguments versus emotional arguments. Right, very 259 00:16:26.919 --> 00:16:30.360 familiar with rhetoric. Okay, you don't have to teach me anything on that 260 00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:34.559 front. Other point, Yes, there's tons of transitional fossils. In fact, 261 00:16:34.679 --> 00:16:40.960 literally every fossil that exists ever is a transitional fossil because of how evolution 262 00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:44.200 works. Right, you're different from the way your parents look, and you're 263 00:16:44.240 --> 00:16:48.080 not an exact copy. You do that because there's an exchange of information when 264 00:16:48.279 --> 00:16:55.159 you're produced as an offspring. And that's just how evolution happens. It's not 265 00:16:55.159 --> 00:16:59.080 getting into the semantics, right, what's the semantic distinction there? I don't 266 00:16:59.080 --> 00:17:03.159 know what what to distinct now with? What with apes and monkeys in primary 267 00:17:03.159 --> 00:17:04.640 they came from primates. That's that's the scientific term. Right. Well, 268 00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:10.000 we're all we're we are primates. Yes, yeah, okay, so that's 269 00:17:10.039 --> 00:17:11.279 all I'm saying. What are you saying? I don't know what you're saying. 270 00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:17.720 Women aren't in a transitional state. So yeahs find is transitional? Yes, 271 00:17:18.039 --> 00:17:22.119 yeah, every every every fossil we find is transitional. By definition, 272 00:17:22.200 --> 00:17:26.240 it's transitional because all life is transitional, there's no the only static copies we 273 00:17:26.279 --> 00:17:33.240 see in nature animals and transition that you're looking for halfish half monkeybrid fossil, 274 00:17:33.279 --> 00:17:38.119 then you I suggest to take a biology right No, no, no, 275 00:17:38.200 --> 00:17:44.559 listen listen again when I said earlier, right like most like if you look 276 00:17:44.559 --> 00:17:48.319 at broadly speaking on Earth, especially between manimals, but also even between other 277 00:17:48.519 --> 00:17:52.440 animals, who wouldn't expect like with reptiles and birds, right like, we 278 00:17:52.480 --> 00:17:55.480 do share most of our DNA, Like, most of our DNA is the 279 00:17:55.559 --> 00:17:59.039 same. That's that's what we would expect to see under evolution, right, 280 00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:03.759 but phenot typically even though Jamie and I share like literally ninety nine percent of 281 00:18:03.799 --> 00:18:07.759 our DNA, you notice we look very different, right, So, very 282 00:18:07.799 --> 00:18:12.119 small differences in DNA can make very big differences in the way people look. 283 00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:17.559 So like, that's that's why that you're the same race, you're the same 284 00:18:17.839 --> 00:18:22.039 animal. Right. So, but when you say DNA and all DNA is 285 00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:25.599 similar, it's further than what evidence because we share a lot of DNA with 286 00:18:25.640 --> 00:18:30.599 bananas too, which like worse like bananas, yes, because saying does they 287 00:18:30.599 --> 00:18:36.559 really make yeah, because they're multicellular life. There you know, I'm saying 288 00:18:36.640 --> 00:18:40.279 You've got a lot of incredulity as to the current as the current model of 289 00:18:41.240 --> 00:18:45.319 evolution, and it just seems a little contrarian to me. I would suggest, 290 00:18:45.359 --> 00:18:47.599 if you really want to find out about it, go and learn about 291 00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:49.119 it. Yeah, you're not willing to trust, then go learn. Yeah. 292 00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:53.400 However, I would like to ask one slightly tangential question. Okay, 293 00:18:53.480 --> 00:18:56.920 let's say evolution is not real. You've proven it wrong. Yeah, what 294 00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:00.039 do we do now? That's all I'm really trying to get across. So 295 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:03.799 you don't have anything to replace it, or any idea of what we should 296 00:19:03.799 --> 00:19:07.440 do instead, or any methodology that we could follow to better explain of these 297 00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:11.720 world that we see around us. Then it's not explain, you know, 298 00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:15.200 but like you can believe it, That's what I'm saying. Like you can 299 00:19:15.240 --> 00:19:17.720 believe if you want saying what you can believe? God just pulled everything out 300 00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:19.039 of know it's the same thing. It is not the same not because there's 301 00:19:19.119 --> 00:19:22.559 no een that God created the world as far as I can say, Okay, 302 00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:26.559 so that's back to the same thing. Why we don't mean transitional species 303 00:19:26.920 --> 00:19:33.079 that we find fossils for you've it sounds like you've learning this world transitional species 304 00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:36.319 and you're just parroting it at us. And yeah, and also I really 305 00:19:36.359 --> 00:19:38.240 don't feel like you're listening to what we're saying at all, because we've said 306 00:19:38.279 --> 00:19:44.160 several times every fossil is a transitional fossil, right, because we're constantly in 307 00:19:44.279 --> 00:19:49.200 transition when when sexual reproduction happens, like you're going to get new combinations of 308 00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:52.960 genes. That's that's how evolution works. I get that. But there's still 309 00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:55.960 such a thing as a bird, Like, that's the type of animal, 310 00:19:56.039 --> 00:19:56.680 right, Like a bird is a type of animal, saying, right, 311 00:19:56.720 --> 00:20:00.599 human as a type of animal, that's correct. What about ne Enderthals? 312 00:20:00.680 --> 00:20:04.720 What about uh, you know, any literally any other you know, like 313 00:20:04.759 --> 00:20:10.519 homo erectus, right, these are also animals, but they also could be 314 00:20:10.559 --> 00:20:12.480 counted as human, right, Like, Like, there's there's obviously evidence of 315 00:20:12.680 --> 00:20:18.799 Neanderthal DNA within ourselves. This has been demonstrated on multiple occasions. What does 316 00:20:18.839 --> 00:20:22.640 that prove though, Well, why would a Neanderthal be able to have offspring 317 00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:26.200 with one of us? Were lay people in this field as well? You're 318 00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:29.960 kind of asking the wrong guys. You're asking us to defend We can't go 319 00:20:29.960 --> 00:20:32.680 on to have a baby with a primate with a monkey. So it other 320 00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:36.640 thant makes sense? Does it? Well? If if if if if a 321 00:20:36.720 --> 00:20:40.799 Neanderthal ensus was around today and you had an offspring with it, what does 322 00:20:40.799 --> 00:20:42.359 that mean? Does that mean that it's a human too? I mean, 323 00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:47.720 like you know, these kinds of constructs we have to describe species my greater 324 00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:52.920 point, right, are ultimately arbitrary, right, like there's there's, there's 325 00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:56.279 there's. Yes, they are. I mean, ask any scientist who studies 326 00:20:56.279 --> 00:21:00.079 the field of evolution. They are arbitrary, but they're not arbitrary in the 327 00:21:00.160 --> 00:21:02.680 sense of, oh, we're just going to randomly pick here and there. 328 00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:07.799 Yes, we generally use viable offspring as a category for species, but there 329 00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:11.559 are also species that are listening. I have to talk, and you cannot 330 00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:15.599 interrupt me while I'm talking, because that tells me that you are not listening. 331 00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:18.240 Do you understand? Do not waste my time. I will let you 332 00:21:18.279 --> 00:21:22.519 go, I will drop you. I will I'm happy to do that. 333 00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:26.920 In fact, I'll do that right now, because I'm only interested in talking 334 00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:30.640 to people who are willing to listen. Okay, obviously you're not listening. 335 00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:33.640 If I can finish my fucking point, lions and tigers. Guess what you 336 00:21:33.680 --> 00:21:38.319 make lgers. That's the thing. Two different animals, new species. Whoa 337 00:21:38.799 --> 00:21:45.799 is this species depends on who you ask. Species differentiation is ultimately arbitrary categories 338 00:21:45.799 --> 00:21:49.920 come up by scientists. Viable offspring isn't always the most consistent attribute you can 339 00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:56.319 make a different any any actual evolutionary scientists out there listening apologies that like Core 340 00:21:56.400 --> 00:21:57.440 was like no, no, but there's better points to make. But the 341 00:21:57.480 --> 00:22:02.079 thing is is like you're asking us to do offend this, and and no, 342 00:22:02.279 --> 00:22:07.359 belief in a scientific theory is not the same as belief in God. 343 00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:11.480 Yes, also again assert the fact that, look, if you know something, 344 00:22:11.480 --> 00:22:12.599 you believe something, right. I don't know what it means to know 345 00:22:12.759 --> 00:22:17.279 something and not believe it. I mean I just don't know. I don't 346 00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:21.400 know what that means. Right, So these sort of arbitrary kind of just 347 00:22:21.680 --> 00:22:23.839 oh you just believe it because it's doglet. I mean, that's just again, 348 00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:26.920 it's just a straw man and it doesn't prove anything. We get a 349 00:22:26.920 --> 00:22:32.599 little bit heated on these things because the kind of distrusting science that comes with 350 00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:37.559 this, this blanket distrusting evolution has so many horrible repercussions. It's why we 351 00:22:37.599 --> 00:22:41.640 have things on anti vaxxs and stuff. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, 352 00:22:41.640 --> 00:22:45.000 anyway, No, I get I get heated when when when people just 353 00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:48.599 are rude and don't listen or just don't care, like it just waste my 354 00:22:48.680 --> 00:22:51.599 time. I'm interested in having fun, Jamie. I want to have some 355 00:22:51.640 --> 00:22:53.160 fun on this show, and I want you guys call in and have some 356 00:22:55.440 --> 00:22:59.440 better conversations with us. So we should talk to you more of you in 357 00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:03.960 a second. But first before I do that, I need to talk about 358 00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:07.680 the question of the week. I should have done this before the calls, 359 00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:11.039 but I was so excited to get into calls, Jamie, that I forgot 360 00:23:11.079 --> 00:23:12.400 to do it. So we're gonna go ahead and do it right now while 361 00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:15.920 we have some time here. So every week we are doing a little type 362 00:23:17.079 --> 00:23:21.480 called talk Heathen to Me, and that's where we want to pick your comments 363 00:23:21.759 --> 00:23:25.319 in the comment section based on a topic that we present here today. So 364 00:23:25.960 --> 00:23:30.839 last week we asked you what would you have ordered at the last supper and 365 00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:37.599 why, which is a great, great prompt. I'm really glad we got 366 00:23:37.640 --> 00:23:41.359 that one online, and we have three great comments that we're gonna read to 367 00:23:41.359 --> 00:23:44.920 you right now, our top three picks. Number one, sorry, number 368 00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:48.000 three, it's coming from Don Degmo, who says, at the last supper, 369 00:23:48.279 --> 00:23:53.279 I'd order Jesus toast, which is great, which is awesome. I 370 00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:56.839 wonder how many of those exists in the world. Did Jesus toast? Thing 371 00:23:57.680 --> 00:24:00.799 of thing? Man? There's more than one. Do you think you could 372 00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:04.160 sell like loaves of Jesus bread and do the Jesus toast or does it only 373 00:24:04.200 --> 00:24:07.160 happen in toast? Is the French Jesus toast? Yeah? Like, I 374 00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:11.400 don't know that that would be a cool brand. Right if you can genetically 375 00:24:11.480 --> 00:24:15.400 engineer loaves of bread widges his face on it, then it's like what now, 376 00:24:15.359 --> 00:24:18.240 I don't know. It's not a special right? Yeah? Is good? 377 00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:22.680 Yeah, that would be funny. But number two we got David French 378 00:24:22.839 --> 00:24:27.720 who says I would order some of that fruit of knowledge, which is also 379 00:24:29.119 --> 00:24:33.200 very good and also, uh does make you wonder what kind of fruit is 380 00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:34.559 it? Because it's always to pick it as an apple, but like, 381 00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:37.960 is it even good? Like would it make a good salad? I think 382 00:24:38.599 --> 00:24:44.599 during like and then you know what suffering is you? Yeah, you're probably 383 00:24:44.680 --> 00:24:47.319 right. Oh that's a good that's a good point. I like that. 384 00:24:47.960 --> 00:24:52.759 Number one is from Nick Parkins, who says, at the last supper, 385 00:24:52.920 --> 00:24:56.599 I wouldn't order anything. I'd stick with the free bread sticks and have Jesus 386 00:24:56.759 --> 00:25:00.000 change my water into wine, which is also, you know, a pretty 387 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:04.039 good deal. It does. It would be really funny if, like Jesus, 388 00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:07.319 instead of like going to someone's house, was just like at an olive 389 00:25:07.359 --> 00:25:11.440 garden or something. And then like every Bible in the world says, and 390 00:25:11.480 --> 00:25:14.720 then Jesus went up with his friends at the olive garden, and I will 391 00:25:14.759 --> 00:25:15.920 have to tell you the story of where we got one of our friends up 392 00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:19.000 on stage at a talent show changing water into wine as a thing. And 393 00:25:19.160 --> 00:25:22.759 really it was hilarious. I'll tell you us that sounds that sounds that sounds 394 00:25:22.759 --> 00:25:26.839 really funny. But yeah, thank you guys so much for your comments. 395 00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:30.400 I love reading the comments for our topic of the week. I think they're 396 00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:33.200 really hilarious. And of course, we have another prompt for you that you 397 00:25:33.200 --> 00:25:36.720 should answer for this next week. This week's prompt, it's going to be 398 00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:41.440 wrong answers only when God uh sorry, my contacts. I slept in my 399 00:25:41.480 --> 00:25:44.400 contacts last night and it's just it's not a good idea. You shouldn't do 400 00:25:44.440 --> 00:25:48.599 that. Roy answers only, when God looked down on his creation, he 401 00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:52.400 saw it was blank. Okay, so that's the prompt for this week. 402 00:25:52.960 --> 00:25:55.599 Let us know when God roy answers only. When God looked down on his 403 00:25:55.640 --> 00:25:59.400 creation, he saw it was blank. Leave your comments below, we'll pick 404 00:25:59.400 --> 00:26:03.039 the top three and we'll read them for next week and it should be a 405 00:26:03.079 --> 00:26:04.400 good time. But before I move on, Jamie, what do you think? 406 00:26:04.839 --> 00:26:07.799 Well? I think that God looked down at his creation and saw that 407 00:26:07.839 --> 00:26:11.279 he hadn't gone through enough testing. But if he threatened or at least bribed 408 00:26:11.319 --> 00:26:17.960 the users enough, then they probably wouldn't complain. Yeah, you're probably right 409 00:26:17.960 --> 00:26:22.279 about that. So I'm gonna go ahead. And since I did that now 410 00:26:22.359 --> 00:26:26.039 out of the way, I'll get a few more announcements and if that's okay 411 00:26:26.079 --> 00:26:30.440 with the rest of you. Just so you guys know, we have a 412 00:26:30.480 --> 00:26:33.400 limited time only T shirt. We of course, have limited time shirts every 413 00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:37.799 month. This month's shirt is pretty cool. It says those who can make 414 00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:42.480 you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities, which I think it's true. 415 00:26:42.680 --> 00:26:45.240 And if you want that on a shirt, you can get that and more 416 00:26:45.480 --> 00:26:51.559 by visiting our website. It's tiny dot cc slash merch Aca and check that 417 00:26:51.599 --> 00:26:53.000 out and get your shirt. Now. It's the end of the month, 418 00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:57.200 so next month we will have a different shirt, so limited time only on 419 00:26:57.240 --> 00:27:00.200 that thing. Please like the video, subscribe to the channel if you like 420 00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:04.039 which you see so far, and leave your comments below about your favorite caller. 421 00:27:04.119 --> 00:27:11.720 Give Jamie some love coming back today doing fantastic. Yeah, he craves 422 00:27:11.720 --> 00:27:15.279 acknowledgement. Please fulfill his needs. Um and uh yeah, we would love 423 00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:18.559 it if you could do that. Um. And if you want to become 424 00:27:18.559 --> 00:27:21.839 a channel member, that is also another way you can support this channel. 425 00:27:21.880 --> 00:27:23.519 You can click the joint button below the video. If you want to do 426 00:27:23.519 --> 00:27:27.559 it, you'll get custom chat emotes and you will help perpetuate the mission of 427 00:27:27.720 --> 00:27:30.519 Talk Heathen and the atheist community of Austin if you do that. So that's 428 00:27:30.519 --> 00:27:33.319 a good deal. Good deal. You should do that. And you can 429 00:27:33.319 --> 00:27:36.039 do it for as Lill's ninety nine cents a month, which I know the 430 00:27:36.079 --> 00:27:38.039 economy is bad, but ninety nine cents, you know that's pretty good. 431 00:27:40.319 --> 00:27:42.799 Listen, So one last thing before we get to calls, um, and 432 00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:51.079 you didn't If you didn't know this Talk Heathen uh is going to uh talk 433 00:27:51.160 --> 00:27:55.480 Heathan has a TikTok okay and uh if We're going to be going live there 434 00:27:55.680 --> 00:28:00.440 pretty much before the end of shows, before the beginning of shows on Sunday, 435 00:28:00.519 --> 00:28:06.480 So you should go check out and follow the Talk Heathen TikTok page. 436 00:28:06.519 --> 00:28:11.359 Try saying that five times fast TikTok Heathen. Yeah, yeah, we should 437 00:28:11.359 --> 00:28:15.000 have called it that. Yeah. Well yeah, well definitely go look at 438 00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:18.440 that and help support the tiktoks. We do post clips on there as well, 439 00:28:18.519 --> 00:28:19.960 So if you don't want to listen to a whole hour and a half 440 00:28:19.960 --> 00:28:22.880 long episodes and you just like the highlights, yeah, the TikTok's a good 441 00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:26.960 place to do that as well. Okay, that's it for announcements right now. 442 00:28:26.960 --> 00:28:27.759 I think we should go back to calls. Absolutely, what do you 443 00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:30.559 think? Okay, let's do it. We have a couple of people who 444 00:28:30.559 --> 00:28:33.799 want to talk to us on the line, very excited about everybody that wants 445 00:28:33.799 --> 00:28:38.920 to talk to us. Let's talk about Oh boy, oh boy, let's 446 00:28:38.920 --> 00:28:44.400 talk to Tyler. Tyler who is calling in from Canada. Tyler, you 447 00:28:44.519 --> 00:28:47.119 are live on Talk Heathen what's up? What's going on? Guys? How 448 00:28:47.119 --> 00:28:51.279 you doing having a having a grand old time? Tyler? How about yourself? 449 00:28:51.759 --> 00:28:53.240 Oh, I'm having a great old day on the on the day of 450 00:28:53.240 --> 00:28:56.480 the Lord. You already know. Um, So yeah, essentially I'm I'm 451 00:28:56.519 --> 00:29:00.400 calling in. I thanks to you guys, And I mean this was all 452 00:29:00.440 --> 00:29:04.160 positivity. You guys have sort of kick started this um, this sort of 453 00:29:04.200 --> 00:29:08.680 pursuit of I guess the truth. I guess like you know, I've always 454 00:29:08.680 --> 00:29:11.880 been an atheist, um, but you know, since discovering like the ACA, 455 00:29:11.960 --> 00:29:15.000 like, you guys have really sort of kicked it into gear. And 456 00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:17.720 I like, I've kind of really fallen into the rabbit hole about like logic 457 00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:21.000 and stuff. Anyways, so I've kind of stumbled across my first sort of 458 00:29:21.079 --> 00:29:26.039 roadblock when it comes to I guess my beliefs here. And so I brought 459 00:29:26.119 --> 00:29:29.519 up the Ark of the Covenant because I was on TikTok the other day and 460 00:29:29.559 --> 00:29:32.920 I was scrolling and there was this like preacher guy and he basically was like, 461 00:29:33.240 --> 00:29:36.079 oh, they found the Ark of the Covenant. You should all be 462 00:29:36.079 --> 00:29:37.519 so scared. And I was like, okay, whatever, like sure, 463 00:29:37.640 --> 00:29:41.000 like I've heard that one before, right, and so, so I started 464 00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:42.880 doing a little bit of research and I learned about this guy, Ron Wyatt. 465 00:29:42.880 --> 00:29:45.240 Are you guys familiar with him, Yes, we're familiar with Ron White. 466 00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:48.279 We've talked about Ron Wyatt on Talk Heathen before. At least I have, 467 00:29:48.519 --> 00:29:52.279 oh cool, familiar with Ron Wyatt. Not personally, I'm I'm I'm 468 00:29:52.519 --> 00:29:56.519 listening with fascinatingly. I want to know what's going on with with with you 469 00:29:56.519 --> 00:29:59.200 A long yeah, tell us what you know about Ron Wyatt to Tyler. 470 00:29:59.440 --> 00:30:03.000 Okay, So, for my understanding, Ron Wyatt was this when I looked 471 00:30:03.079 --> 00:30:04.559 him up, he was he's apparently like an anesthesian, so like he's like 472 00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:07.400 a doctor. But fun fact, he decided to go to Jerusalem and like 473 00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:11.480 dig up a bunch of stuff because you know, claims to have found the 474 00:30:11.480 --> 00:30:15.759 crucifixion site of Jesus and you know, the Ark of the Covenant, you 475 00:30:15.799 --> 00:30:18.799 know, God's earthly throne and so and so this guy, this preacher TikTok 476 00:30:18.799 --> 00:30:22.480 guy, like I commented on this thing, and I was like, okay, 477 00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:23.599 like what next, And he's like, well, go go look up 478 00:30:23.599 --> 00:30:26.559 this stuff. So I did. And so I'm reading about Ron Wyatt and 479 00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:32.079 um and so he actually has like an archaeological research page, and and so 480 00:30:32.160 --> 00:30:33.200 that was actually like the last thing that I looked at. But I was 481 00:30:33.240 --> 00:30:37.480 looking at all this information about um the Ark of the Covenant and you know, 482 00:30:37.519 --> 00:30:40.319 maybe it's whereabouts, and you know, a lot of a lot of 483 00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:42.000 articles said that they don't they don't have it, they don't have all this. 484 00:30:42.119 --> 00:30:45.519 And then so then I go to Ron Wyatt's page, right, and 485 00:30:45.559 --> 00:30:48.559 he's got all these all all these pictures and like it's a pretty big article. 486 00:30:48.599 --> 00:30:52.160 And within the article, you know, there's lots of pictures of some 487 00:30:52.240 --> 00:30:55.279 of the stuff that they found down there, Like they found like this gold 488 00:30:55.359 --> 00:30:59.359 coin which apparently dates back to like one thirty five a d. And they 489 00:30:59.359 --> 00:31:03.839 found like the hole in which like the crucifix was like in the ground, 490 00:31:03.880 --> 00:31:06.519 and like all this stuff. And so I'm like, I'm looking at all 491 00:31:06.519 --> 00:31:07.400 this stuff. As I'm reading it, I'm like, well, that's like 492 00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:10.559 I don't know, I feel like that's a pretty big deal. But then 493 00:31:10.599 --> 00:31:14.359 there's all like essentially I feel like I'm missing something because a lot of a 494 00:31:14.400 --> 00:31:15.400 lot of you know, a lot of the articles I read, they're like, 495 00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:18.759 no, you know, they haven't found it, or it's not it's 496 00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:21.200 not real. And then I look at Ron wyatt stuff, and you know, 497 00:31:21.240 --> 00:31:22.880 he's got like pictures of all of this, all this stuff that he 498 00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:26.400 finds on his dick. He found some bag blood on it, and I'm 499 00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:30.079 like, okay, crap, So like, what like what am I missing 500 00:31:30.119 --> 00:31:33.559 here? Let me tell you what, Jamie. You want to talk first? 501 00:31:33.079 --> 00:31:37.720 I firstly, how has he actually verified all these things to be authentic? 502 00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:41.680 And have I been independently checked? Well, I'll tell you this because 503 00:31:41.720 --> 00:31:44.720 I know a little bit about Ron Wyatt. Ron Wyatt, Okay, if 504 00:31:44.759 --> 00:31:48.400 you're talking about creationists, Okay, creationists don't even like Ron Wyatt. If 505 00:31:48.440 --> 00:31:52.359 you want to know about a creationist that gets criticized by other creationists, Ron 506 00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:59.240 Wyatt's your dude. You can look up the Genesis uh broadcasts, uh, 507 00:32:00.319 --> 00:32:02.880 you know with with with ken Ham and you know those guys even they have 508 00:32:02.920 --> 00:32:07.880 a written argument against Ron Wyatt's discoveries. Um, and it's theusiologists don't make 509 00:32:07.880 --> 00:32:12.759 the best archaeologists. Turns out, also, you can find fucking anything on 510 00:32:12.799 --> 00:32:15.000 TikTok. It's great. I literally saw a TikTok last week of a girl 511 00:32:15.160 --> 00:32:21.000 who said that other planets may not be real because she's never actually seen one 512 00:32:21.039 --> 00:32:22.720 in a telescope and she thinks that, you know, like like you know, 513 00:32:22.759 --> 00:32:25.920 and that gets like a million views because you have to do what somebody 514 00:32:25.960 --> 00:32:29.519 called this this Sorry I'm going on a tangent, but like you ever see 515 00:32:29.559 --> 00:32:31.680 a TikTok and they and they do this voice where it's like, did you 516 00:32:31.720 --> 00:32:37.000 know that in nineteen oh five scientists actually came up with the word and they're 517 00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:39.279 homosexual and it didn't exist in the Bible before, you know, like they 518 00:32:39.319 --> 00:32:44.400 have that. Somebody called it the transit classic. It's the Transatlantic accent for 519 00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:46.880 TikTokers, and it's it's the funniest term I've ever heard in my life anyway. 520 00:32:46.880 --> 00:32:51.000 Okay, so so obviously TikTok's not the best source of information. But 521 00:32:51.079 --> 00:32:54.880 Ron Wyatt famously criticized by other creatious because he just kind of goes to places 522 00:32:54.920 --> 00:32:59.240 and takes pictures of stuff and says, hey, look I found this thing, 523 00:32:59.319 --> 00:33:01.720 and this is like of Jesus or whatever, and every other person who 524 00:33:01.759 --> 00:33:06.839 actually works in the field and spends years of their life trying to even publish 525 00:33:06.920 --> 00:33:09.400 and and do digs are like, no, man, that's that's not how 526 00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:13.079 it works. If you go to Jerusalem, I mean there's full of places. 527 00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:16.039 There's like nineteen different places where you know, Jesus were supposedly crucified, 528 00:33:16.119 --> 00:33:19.799 right like, like you know, it's a whole tourist industry over there. 529 00:33:19.799 --> 00:33:22.640 But Ron White is one of those dudes who has tried to make a living 530 00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:27.559 off of this. Um and again when when your homies in the creationist movement 531 00:33:27.640 --> 00:33:30.400 or even like I don't know about this dog, like that's how you should 532 00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:34.599 know like something is wrong because they'll use anything. And here's the thing as 533 00:33:34.640 --> 00:33:37.920 well, Right, let's imagine, let's give him all of the benefit, 534 00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:40.680 all of the debt much doubt that there is. He found some artifacts that 535 00:33:40.759 --> 00:33:44.880 were that old, Yeah, verifiable. He found a rag with blood that 536 00:33:45.079 --> 00:33:47.839 is that old? Is that old? Does any of that prove that God's 537 00:33:47.880 --> 00:33:52.720 real, Jesus ended, any of the mariracles actually happened. That it's not 538 00:33:52.759 --> 00:33:55.559 just a box and a coin and a rag. You know that's another echelon 539 00:33:55.640 --> 00:34:00.519 above. Yeah, you've gotta hit man. Yeah, yeah, it's true. 540 00:34:00.640 --> 00:34:04.480 So pseudo archaeology is very big, has a lot of players in it. 541 00:34:04.599 --> 00:34:07.640 Ron Why is just one of those players? Um, so that's that's 542 00:34:07.720 --> 00:34:09.199 that's my take if you want to out. Yeah, no, totally, 543 00:34:09.199 --> 00:34:12.679 that's great. Um, you know, I guess you're totally right. Like 544 00:34:12.719 --> 00:34:15.719 it's like, how exactly does that? And that's and that's where I was 545 00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:16.559 kind of confused, and I was like, what better place to call, 546 00:34:16.639 --> 00:34:19.760 you know what, to get this sorted out than one of these shows. 547 00:34:19.960 --> 00:34:22.920 Um, and so I was like, where, like am I missic something? 548 00:34:22.960 --> 00:34:24.840 And yeah, essentially I kind of agree with you, you know when 549 00:34:24.840 --> 00:34:27.519 you kind of put it out in front of me like that. You know, 550 00:34:27.559 --> 00:34:29.719 it's like this box, It's just a box at the end of the 551 00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:30.360 day. It's a box in a rag. And like, you know, 552 00:34:30.440 --> 00:34:34.480 my kind of thing is like I believe that Jesus was a real person, 553 00:34:34.519 --> 00:34:37.199 you know, and I think that, like I don't doubt that any of 554 00:34:37.199 --> 00:34:39.599 these like biblical people were like real, Like I don't know, Like it's 555 00:34:39.599 --> 00:34:43.599 a pretty elaborate story if you ask me. It's like, sure these people 556 00:34:43.639 --> 00:34:45.000 might have been real, but like all the miracles and stuff like that, 557 00:34:45.039 --> 00:34:49.199 Like I guess it's to me, it's a bunch of JABRONI. Um, 558 00:34:49.719 --> 00:34:52.920 so yeah, um, I guess I guess to kind of further that question 559 00:34:52.480 --> 00:34:57.559 for the future, like how like what sort of like methodology would you recommend 560 00:34:57.559 --> 00:35:00.079 that I use? So if I ever come into another one of these roadblocks, 561 00:35:00.079 --> 00:35:05.000 like just more research, or like, what what would you suggest I 562 00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:08.239 do in a situation like this in the future, Go and see if it's 563 00:35:08.320 --> 00:35:15.400 verified by other sources that have no actual or as little biased as possible, 564 00:35:15.400 --> 00:35:19.679 as a little skin in the game as possible. So creationist geologist finds this, 565 00:35:20.079 --> 00:35:23.239 or geologist finds this, I'd always try and see what biases the people 566 00:35:23.280 --> 00:35:27.079 have, and everyone has the house biases, I have biases, down has 567 00:35:27.079 --> 00:35:30.639 biases everywhere. We're human. Yeah, yeah, sure, check the biases, 568 00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:34.039 double check out the sources. Here's a couple of things. One, 569 00:35:34.599 --> 00:35:38.159 this is like an unofficial sort of quick can't thing. Check if that person 570 00:35:38.719 --> 00:35:43.880 or topic has an article on rational Wiki. I love looking at rational Wiki 571 00:35:43.960 --> 00:35:49.159 because they catalog just like weird conspiracy stuff and also pseudo archaeology and stuff. 572 00:35:49.159 --> 00:35:52.719 So if they have an article on their chances are it's bs. They're not 573 00:35:52.880 --> 00:35:57.599 completely unbiased, obviously, but it's a good starting point. Another thing is, 574 00:35:57.639 --> 00:36:00.960 look if you're seeing a claim that's being made, especially a big one 575 00:36:00.039 --> 00:36:04.119 like that within the field of archaeology, right, and it is like going 576 00:36:04.199 --> 00:36:08.280 against the grain, if it's really going against what you've commonly been led to 577 00:36:08.280 --> 00:36:13.119 assume about what's mainstream in the field. I have to take a step back 578 00:36:13.159 --> 00:36:15.519 and look at it and realize, even if I think that this is convincing, 579 00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:19.920 even if I think it's a good point, I'm actually not literally qualified 580 00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:23.679 to say, oh, actually I think this should be accepted within mainstream archaeological 581 00:36:23.719 --> 00:36:27.599 sciences, right, Like I just want I don't have the credentials, But 582 00:36:27.880 --> 00:36:31.440 anybody else who is knowledgeable about this subject, they're going to be interested, 583 00:36:31.559 --> 00:36:34.800 right, and they're going to be able to want to verify that stuff. 584 00:36:34.840 --> 00:36:38.039 Ron Whyat is one of those dudes who has several people who has written about 585 00:36:38.119 --> 00:36:42.480 his work, specifically in debunking it. So like, if you look up 586 00:36:42.519 --> 00:36:45.280 the name and you look at other sources on a particularly academic ones, if 587 00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:49.519 you want to go to the Google scholar route, you can like that that's 588 00:36:49.519 --> 00:36:51.519 one of the ways to do it. But you know that's tricky too, 589 00:36:51.559 --> 00:36:54.639 because Ron's like a more popular person. If you find one of these more 590 00:36:54.679 --> 00:37:00.280 obscure ones, you should be even more you know, skeptical about that because 591 00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:04.880 like I want to see if they've actually published something through a university first before 592 00:37:04.880 --> 00:37:08.280 just saying hey, I wanted to Jerusalem. Just I took a shovel out 593 00:37:08.280 --> 00:37:12.360 on Calvary and I just hey, man, I just found Jesus's body. 594 00:37:12.400 --> 00:37:15.480 Actually, so you know, we're just gonna totally, we're just gonna go 595 00:37:15.559 --> 00:37:16.920 with that. I didn't even know Ron why it was up to all that. 596 00:37:17.159 --> 00:37:21.280 Yeah, I had no idea Ron why it was like not this like 597 00:37:21.480 --> 00:37:24.360 super incredible guys. Yeah, like that's actually really good information to kind of 598 00:37:24.360 --> 00:37:28.159 take away from this. Yeah, and I appreciate that you you know, 599 00:37:28.320 --> 00:37:30.360 uh what you know, we try to want the truth. Yeah, that's 600 00:37:30.360 --> 00:37:34.079 another show that we have here. But like like we do, we do. 601 00:37:34.159 --> 00:37:37.400 We are interested in that. Whether you completely agree with our conclusions or 602 00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:38.800 not, that's one thing, but like we are interested in the methodologies. 603 00:37:38.800 --> 00:37:42.199 And I appreciate that you are willing to call us and talk to us about 604 00:37:42.239 --> 00:37:45.079 it, because like that's that's important to us. It is. And apply 605 00:37:45.280 --> 00:37:49.800 that kind of intellectual rigor to everything, even things that you feel are true 606 00:37:49.960 --> 00:37:52.679 or come from credible sources. Don't always I mean, don't don't paranoid and 607 00:37:52.760 --> 00:37:55.960 distrust everything. But always double checks. But well, okay, you can 608 00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:00.719 distrust everything you see on TikTok. I am willing to say that look if 609 00:38:00.840 --> 00:38:04.920 if if look I know, like it used to be, Facebook was like 610 00:38:04.960 --> 00:38:07.480 oh I saw it on Facebook. Now it's like TikTok's like, oh yeah, 611 00:38:07.480 --> 00:38:08.800 I saw it on TikTok, and so I know it's legit. Right. 612 00:38:08.800 --> 00:38:10.920 That's that's the new thing. We're living with it. But anyway, 613 00:38:10.960 --> 00:38:14.639 Tyler, that's that's pretty much all the time I can give you today for 614 00:38:14.679 --> 00:38:16.039 this call. We do have to move on. But I appreciate you so 615 00:38:16.119 --> 00:38:20.440 much for calling in. Thanks so much for that, and thank you so 616 00:38:20.519 --> 00:38:22.760 much for your time. You guys, I really appreciate it. Of course, 617 00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:24.360 of course, have a good one. See that was a great call. 618 00:38:24.519 --> 00:38:28.800 Yeah, it was nice to know that someone out there who's actually not 619 00:38:29.039 --> 00:38:31.320 he's thinking and he's willing to be a bit introspective. I agree. I 620 00:38:31.639 --> 00:38:37.280 got the perspective, or I got the intuition that Tyler maybe is an atheist, 621 00:38:37.320 --> 00:38:39.480 maybe doesn't completely agree with our conclusions. But value is what we have 622 00:38:39.519 --> 00:38:43.000 to say enough to say, hey, what do you think about this topic? 623 00:38:43.440 --> 00:38:45.800 And different that conversation was from our first one. This morning, is 624 00:38:46.079 --> 00:38:49.480 like, it's like, that's what we want to see on this show. 625 00:38:49.519 --> 00:38:52.559 Like, I don't like being mean to people, Like I want to have 626 00:38:52.760 --> 00:38:55.199 a constructive dialogue and not to like say like, oh, we should be 627 00:38:55.239 --> 00:38:59.039 the experts that people should consult us on and everything. It's like, no, 628 00:38:59.159 --> 00:39:01.400 like we have to have some discourse though, right, Yeah, you 629 00:39:01.800 --> 00:39:06.920 call myself an expert on basically anything. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. 630 00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:08.840 But anyway, that was a great conversation. Thank you so much Tilt 631 00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:12.960 for that. Before we move on to some other callers, I do have 632 00:39:13.039 --> 00:39:15.199 a couple more announcements. I do need to get out of the way, 633 00:39:15.440 --> 00:39:17.199 so sorry, my contacts are gonna be so much trouble today, guys. 634 00:39:17.559 --> 00:39:22.119 But the ACA does want you to know what's going on in the community and 635 00:39:22.159 --> 00:39:25.880 where you can find more information. You can do that by going to our 636 00:39:25.880 --> 00:39:30.639 website It's Atheist hyphen Community dot org for that and check out what the organization 637 00:39:30.840 --> 00:39:35.519 is up to, what our policies are, and what's going on. You 638 00:39:35.559 --> 00:39:37.840 know, we post all of our events and stuff on there, so check 639 00:39:37.880 --> 00:39:42.559 it out. And if you want to know that your feedback is being heard, 640 00:39:42.639 --> 00:39:45.440 like you can do that. You have an email address. It's tv 641 00:39:45.679 --> 00:39:49.960 at eighthist hyphen community dot org, and we get tons and tons of emails 642 00:39:49.960 --> 00:39:53.320 from folks. They don't always go to individual hosts, but it's someone is 643 00:39:53.320 --> 00:39:57.719 probably going to see it. At the ACA. We have some wonderful volunteers 644 00:39:57.760 --> 00:40:01.239 here who shield us from the delustion. Right, we don't need to see 645 00:40:01.320 --> 00:40:07.039 everything will be the host side anyway. I can attest to that of you 646 00:40:07.039 --> 00:40:09.159 know, the YouTube comment section is already enough as it is, but email 647 00:40:09.199 --> 00:40:12.280 is a great way to get in contact with us. Let us know your 648 00:40:12.280 --> 00:40:15.199 thoughts and uh, yeah, what we can do better? So we we 649 00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:20.480 do really like to hear that. Let's take should we do Let's do maybe 650 00:40:20.599 --> 00:40:23.000 one more call here and then after that, well we'll do our top five 651 00:40:23.039 --> 00:40:27.079 patrons. I think we should do that. But um, let's see, 652 00:40:27.119 --> 00:40:30.159 we've got uh, we've got Patrick calling from Washington. I think we should 653 00:40:30.159 --> 00:40:34.360 do this one next while Patrick, you are alive on Talk Heathen. What's 654 00:40:34.360 --> 00:40:37.400 going on? Hey? How going going? Pretty good? Yes? I 655 00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:42.199 just wanted to respond to the to the pull on on the chat about whether 656 00:40:42.280 --> 00:40:45.239 or not Christianity is a peaceful religion? Yeah, yeah, what do you 657 00:40:45.280 --> 00:40:49.960 think? I think it's a complicated question. Um, I would say his 658 00:40:50.119 --> 00:40:53.559 storagely has not been peaceful. But um, I think if I think it's 659 00:40:53.559 --> 00:40:59.760 important to look at the actual dactual doctrine, like what what actually teaches rather 660 00:40:59.800 --> 00:41:04.800 than um, well, not Christians historically I've been. Obviously they have not 661 00:41:04.920 --> 00:41:07.679 like they have not been. But yes, you know what, Patrick, 662 00:41:07.840 --> 00:41:09.320 I agree with you. You're right we should look at the doctrine. Like 663 00:41:09.360 --> 00:41:14.199 the verse we read this morning, Jesus came to bring the sword, right, 664 00:41:14.360 --> 00:41:16.519 he came to separate his father from son, from daughter from mothers. 665 00:41:16.519 --> 00:41:20.079 So yeah, I agree with you, we should look at the doctrine. 666 00:41:20.199 --> 00:41:24.360 Christianity definitely sounds like a pretty violent religion, right, Yeah, I'm I'm 667 00:41:24.480 --> 00:41:28.920 I'm I'm joking with you here, Patrick, I'm being facetious. Okay, 668 00:41:29.079 --> 00:41:31.559 it is complicated, right, Like, look, yeah, obviously there's very 669 00:41:31.599 --> 00:41:35.760 peaceful Christians. There's Christians who have done horrible things. When you have a 670 00:41:35.920 --> 00:41:39.559 religion of billions of adherents, you're gonna have like a spectrum, right, 671 00:41:40.360 --> 00:41:44.239 But like, I'm not particularly interested, I'll be honest, Patrick, in 672 00:41:44.320 --> 00:41:47.599 saying what the true theology is to be, or what the true doctrine says, 673 00:41:47.599 --> 00:41:52.280 because like honestly, like that doesn't matter. What matters to me is 674 00:41:52.639 --> 00:41:55.800 okay, are the claims that they're saying true? Like is Jesus like this 675 00:41:55.880 --> 00:42:00.079 dude that rose from the dead, is God real? Did he come to 676 00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:02.119 save humanity? Because like, if he's not those things, anything he has 677 00:42:02.159 --> 00:42:06.719 to say about morality I can take with a grain of salt, like I 678 00:42:06.760 --> 00:42:09.079 can with anybody else that's written about morality. Right. Yeah. And the 679 00:42:09.079 --> 00:42:13.440 thing is is that when people want to say, well, you know, 680 00:42:13.960 --> 00:42:17.000 like a true Christian is a peaceful person, that kind of thing, Christianity 681 00:42:17.079 --> 00:42:22.039 is peaceful, I have trouble with that because in my lifetime a pub in 682 00:42:22.079 --> 00:42:28.880 my hometown was bombed by Christians fighting of the Christians, Like the troubles in 683 00:42:28.920 --> 00:42:32.199 Ireland were not a long time ago. Yeah, Sectarian violence was part of 684 00:42:32.239 --> 00:42:36.760 my upbringing. And and you say, well, no, we're we're a 685 00:42:36.760 --> 00:42:39.360 religion of peace. I'm like evidence sort of says otherwise, chief Sure, 686 00:42:39.719 --> 00:42:45.440 Yeah, correspond to to the of course the birds that you brought up absolutely, 687 00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:49.559 um, Because I'll say, for my son Off like I've always been 688 00:42:49.880 --> 00:42:52.199 like in my own family, I've always been the one that kind of hold 689 00:42:52.239 --> 00:42:57.199 my tongue to keep the peace and it's all like my whole wife. I've 690 00:42:57.199 --> 00:43:00.719 always felt like my family was was together and like like you know, my 691 00:43:00.719 --> 00:43:02.639 my parents aren't divorced, and you know, I've never really fought with my 692 00:43:02.679 --> 00:43:07.000 sisters, but um, I don't know, like so so there's been like 693 00:43:07.039 --> 00:43:10.599 this appearance of peace. But now that I'm like now that I reflect on 694 00:43:10.599 --> 00:43:14.639 it, like, um, you know, you know I held my tongue 695 00:43:14.960 --> 00:43:17.159 um and something like I don't know, like it like it wasn't good for 696 00:43:17.199 --> 00:43:22.239 me for me to do that, like sure because I really I really suppressed 697 00:43:22.239 --> 00:43:24.239 myself. So, um, Patrick, do you still identify as a Christian? 698 00:43:24.400 --> 00:43:30.559 Now? Um? Yeah, I was an atheist for um about like 699 00:43:30.639 --> 00:43:36.159 yeah the last seven years. Um. But I think as I've been realizing 700 00:43:36.199 --> 00:43:39.199 this stuff, I've been uh like questioning what what exactly love is? And 701 00:43:40.039 --> 00:43:45.159 um like everything that I thought was loved growing up ended up not being loved 702 00:43:45.159 --> 00:43:49.920 like like like like like I know my parents loved me, but um like 703 00:43:50.320 --> 00:43:53.920 in another sense, like I sat in front of a screen for like more 704 00:43:53.920 --> 00:43:58.119 than half my childhood Like so like is that really love to let like to 705 00:43:58.199 --> 00:44:01.400 let your kids do that or like and that's affect ways that has like really 706 00:44:01.440 --> 00:44:06.679 hurt me. Yeah, And so absolutely neglect is a thing, right, 707 00:44:06.760 --> 00:44:09.639 Neglect is a thing that could be harmful for people's upbringing in Unfortunately, in 708 00:44:09.679 --> 00:44:14.039 my opinion, Christianity doesn't really address a lot of that. In fact, 709 00:44:14.119 --> 00:44:16.199 it does even tell you, like you should ignore. I mean it literally 710 00:44:16.199 --> 00:44:19.840 says, not just in the verse I read, but in other places in 711 00:44:19.880 --> 00:44:22.920 the New Testament that you should ignore your family obligations in order to be one 712 00:44:22.960 --> 00:44:28.760 with Christ like follow that understanding. And this is a religion that has expanded 713 00:44:28.760 --> 00:44:34.000 and evolved its theology for over two thousand years, and so different Christians in 714 00:44:34.039 --> 00:44:37.119 different times and places are going to have interpretations. But at the end of 715 00:44:37.159 --> 00:44:40.400 the day, at every single instance where an interpretation has happened, it's always 716 00:44:40.400 --> 00:44:44.800 a person at the other end of that, right. And so my criticism, 717 00:44:44.840 --> 00:44:46.840 Patrick, and one of the reasons why I don't call myself a Christian 718 00:44:46.880 --> 00:44:52.960 anymore is exactly why what you've describe my sense of morality, I don't get 719 00:44:52.960 --> 00:44:57.119 it informed from the Bible at all anymore. My sense of ethics, my 720 00:44:57.159 --> 00:45:00.559 sense of what I think is right and wrong, is coming from what I 721 00:45:00.599 --> 00:45:04.719 believe other people want for themselves, and what I want for myself, and 722 00:45:04.760 --> 00:45:07.599 Okay, like how do we meet that compromise? Right? Like, that's 723 00:45:07.639 --> 00:45:09.960 that's pretty much what ethics is at the end of the day, right, 724 00:45:09.960 --> 00:45:14.760 And like, you know, there's things in the Bible specifically and the Christian 725 00:45:14.800 --> 00:45:19.119 religion that holds me back from being able to love other people the most way. 726 00:45:19.360 --> 00:45:22.000 If I listen to what the Bible has to say, I would have 727 00:45:22.039 --> 00:45:24.960 to tell my LGBT friends that they're living a life of sin and that they 728 00:45:24.960 --> 00:45:29.440 need to repent. And I don't think that's loving evil and broken rings. 729 00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:32.239 I don't think they're actually doing any harm really, just living their lives and 730 00:45:32.280 --> 00:45:36.599 loving who they want, right, And that's one example. But but you 731 00:45:36.599 --> 00:45:39.519 can see how as I have growing up as a Christian as well, Patrick, 732 00:45:39.599 --> 00:45:43.880 I've also struggled with this idea of what did my Christian friends and family 733 00:45:43.920 --> 00:45:47.199 really mean when they talked about love, because that is I think their definition 734 00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:51.039 failed to be honest, you know, And to kind of bring it back 735 00:45:51.079 --> 00:45:54.800 to the original question of like, is Christianity a religion of peace or peaceful? 736 00:45:55.079 --> 00:46:00.559 I think the wider question might be, is any religion, especially dogmatic 737 00:46:00.599 --> 00:46:02.880 ones like Christianity and know the aparamic religions. Can they even can they be 738 00:46:02.920 --> 00:46:07.239 peaceful? Because they are prescriptive? Sure, and you live this way, 739 00:46:07.360 --> 00:46:09.199 you follow these rules and you believe what we tell you to believe, and 740 00:46:09.280 --> 00:46:14.599 if you disagree, we don't have problem, right, and that brings conflict, 741 00:46:14.719 --> 00:46:16.559 right. And if it's not people giving the violence, it's God, 742 00:46:16.840 --> 00:46:22.119 right, it's God saying no vengeance is mine. That's literally a quote from 743 00:46:22.159 --> 00:46:25.679 the Old test of It, right, Hell is the consequence for disobedience? 744 00:46:25.920 --> 00:46:30.559 Yeah, which isn't supposed to people as it you know. So there's there's 745 00:46:30.599 --> 00:46:35.400 conflict and strife all the way through religion in general, but Christianity teens specific 746 00:46:35.440 --> 00:46:38.519 at least from where I'm sitting. And while it does have messages of peace 747 00:46:38.519 --> 00:46:43.719 and love in there that can be interpreted in ways that are more positive. 748 00:46:44.079 --> 00:46:49.760 It's kind of like why following instruction book where seventy five percent instructions seem bad 749 00:46:49.760 --> 00:46:52.880 and twenty five are okay? Yeah, yeah, I agree, We're not 750 00:46:52.960 --> 00:46:55.119 just have a better instruction book. Or maybe we don't just have one book, 751 00:46:55.199 --> 00:46:59.280 maybe we have a library of books. Right, I don't know that 752 00:46:59.320 --> 00:47:00.440 We're talking a lot here, Patrick, What do you think? Yeah, 753 00:47:00.639 --> 00:47:04.719 um, yeah, I mean, so before I was an atheist, I 754 00:47:04.960 --> 00:47:07.440 started going to a church that kind of ended up being like a cult, 755 00:47:07.440 --> 00:47:12.920 which which is what led me to being an atheist. Um and um yeah 756 00:47:13.119 --> 00:47:17.800 and then so um what brought me back was really learning about, um, 757 00:47:19.559 --> 00:47:22.960 how my actions are affecting my life and like what I was leaving forward. 758 00:47:22.280 --> 00:47:28.719 Um, I do want to like talk about um we said about about loving 759 00:47:28.719 --> 00:47:34.239 who you want I guess yeah or not um um and not not specially about 760 00:47:34.360 --> 00:47:39.280 LGBT, but um uh what I lived from myself um actually came from a 761 00:47:39.280 --> 00:47:45.840 slip knot song. Uh you know ba million Yeah, I'm I'm a I'm 762 00:47:45.840 --> 00:47:50.599 a nineties kid. I was wedding tool. Yeah yeah re million Actually like 763 00:47:50.920 --> 00:47:54.280 changed my life with this because um, like my whole time in high like 764 00:47:54.320 --> 00:47:58.760 in high school and stuff, I always loved that song and uh recently I 765 00:47:58.840 --> 00:48:02.039 looked up what it meant and the commissator said it's either about um, his 766 00:48:02.119 --> 00:48:07.760 struggle with with drugs or could also be about trauma bond and um, how 767 00:48:07.800 --> 00:48:10.920 like a someone can like become who like who you want them to be. 768 00:48:10.960 --> 00:48:16.679 And then uh he mentioned how like um that can often like it often does 769 00:48:16.800 --> 00:48:22.599 lead people to suicide or like being institutionalized because it is like a like a 770 00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:28.400 in a way a drug addition like like and um, yet why I related 771 00:48:28.440 --> 00:48:31.480 this so much as that you know I wasn't I wasn't in a or yeah, 772 00:48:31.519 --> 00:48:35.920 I wasn't a trauma bond and I might be now to like and so 773 00:48:36.320 --> 00:48:39.400 um and and you know my my girl, my girlfriend in high school did 774 00:48:39.440 --> 00:48:43.960 take her life. Um. And I know I'm not like the the main 775 00:48:44.039 --> 00:48:46.639 cause, like I think the main cause is from her own family. But 776 00:48:46.880 --> 00:48:51.800 um, yeah, Patrick, I yeah, I I appreciate you sharing. 777 00:48:52.159 --> 00:48:57.320 This is obviously an extremely impactful thing. And and I'm I'm honestly uh, 778 00:48:57.400 --> 00:49:00.719 I'm I'm flattered that you would tell me that and tell Jamie that. I 779 00:49:00.800 --> 00:49:05.119 think that speaks a lot to your trust and our abilities to help you with 780 00:49:05.159 --> 00:49:07.199 that. But I think what you're talking about now, I think you're venturing 781 00:49:07.199 --> 00:49:13.360 into a territory that unfortunately I can't actually a comment or even help you one 782 00:49:13.400 --> 00:49:17.719 because I'm not a licensed therapist. I have no background in in doing that 783 00:49:17.800 --> 00:49:21.880 sort of thing. So I think the kind of issues that you might need 784 00:49:21.960 --> 00:49:25.039 help addressing need to come from a professional and somebody who really knows what they're 785 00:49:25.079 --> 00:49:30.639 doing and not to goofy talk show hosts. Yeah, I mean we we 786 00:49:30.639 --> 00:49:35.199 we empathize and it is brave for you to share that, absolutely, but 787 00:49:35.280 --> 00:49:38.639 for many reasons, ethics chief among them, I'm not help with it. 788 00:49:38.800 --> 00:49:45.519 Okay. So I wanted to like relate that to how what that's to do 789 00:49:45.559 --> 00:49:49.199 with Christianity in a way. Okay, I mean, are you saying that 790 00:49:49.480 --> 00:49:53.920 you're finding comfort in religion? No? Actually, like almost opposite. Okay, 791 00:49:54.039 --> 00:49:58.800 you're saying like like like like like you're are you making a comparison that 792 00:49:58.840 --> 00:50:02.199 like you're upbringing with Christianity is sort of like a trauma bonding experience. Is 793 00:50:02.239 --> 00:50:06.880 that kind of the analogy you're going for. I'm just trying to understand. 794 00:50:07.440 --> 00:50:10.960 No, I think I'm trying to point how how like Christians has pointed out 795 00:50:12.039 --> 00:50:15.320 that that has kind of shed the light on what like it's like everything I 796 00:50:15.360 --> 00:50:17.760 thought in life is good ended up being like off, like I don't know, 797 00:50:17.760 --> 00:50:22.280 like it showed like on like on what the reality is in all this 798 00:50:22.320 --> 00:50:25.280 stuff like and um, so yeah, I think it's been rather difficult to 799 00:50:25.760 --> 00:50:30.280 um not come from at all, to like to be realizing these things. 800 00:50:30.760 --> 00:50:32.480 Yeah, it's almost like I was living in like the state of denial, 801 00:50:32.599 --> 00:50:37.639 Like, well, we can recommend things like recovering from religion and things like 802 00:50:37.679 --> 00:50:40.719 that. There are great organizations out there that can help you untangle these emotions 803 00:50:40.760 --> 00:50:45.679 from the experiences that you had, and right, yeah, it seems because 804 00:50:45.880 --> 00:50:47.199 it sounds like there's a lot in there, man, and you've gone through 805 00:50:47.239 --> 00:50:52.440 a lot, and um uh, we are not qualified, nor would we 806 00:50:52.480 --> 00:50:54.639 want to dissuade you from anything that's going to make you happier in health. 807 00:50:54.719 --> 00:50:59.599 Yeah, we just encourage you to. But but the point of that is 808 00:50:59.639 --> 00:51:05.079 that that showed me how sin does result in death, like and right, 809 00:51:05.199 --> 00:51:07.960 why so I I was afraid that this was like the conclusion of like where 810 00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:14.239 this was going, And like, again, I can't advise you on what 811 00:51:14.280 --> 00:51:17.559 you should do with your life. But my opinion is that that worldview is 812 00:51:17.599 --> 00:51:22.679 harmful. And the reason why that world view is harmful is because sin as 813 00:51:22.719 --> 00:51:28.360 a concept is extremely ambiguous, not very well defined, and tends to do 814 00:51:28.400 --> 00:51:31.760 a lot more harm in my experience and the other people in this building's experience 815 00:51:31.920 --> 00:51:36.400 than it does good. And part of that is because it doesn't seem to 816 00:51:36.400 --> 00:51:39.760 address human interests. It seems to address God's interests, and how we know 817 00:51:39.880 --> 00:51:45.840 God's interests is from human interpretation, and when human interpretation is involved in that 818 00:51:45.880 --> 00:51:49.639 process, it gets messy, right, and it gets arbitrary, and it 819 00:51:49.679 --> 00:51:52.519 can get really really bad. So like, like, I don't describe anybody 820 00:51:52.559 --> 00:51:59.079 to look at their life in how they are if they're right with God or 821 00:51:59.119 --> 00:52:01.599 not, if they're living with said I really my point of view is you 822 00:52:01.639 --> 00:52:05.960 should look are you making yourself happy and the other people around you happy? 823 00:52:05.960 --> 00:52:08.440 And are you doing what's I think we could both give examples of people we 824 00:52:08.519 --> 00:52:15.719 know who have found happiness in sin, right by the sort of biblical or 825 00:52:15.880 --> 00:52:19.719 dogmatic version of it. If what you're saying is like, bad actions or 826 00:52:19.760 --> 00:52:22.960 bad bad decisions can lead to bad consequences, of course, but they don't 827 00:52:22.960 --> 00:52:28.360 necessarily sin. Right. It's one thing to take responsibility for your own actions, 828 00:52:28.519 --> 00:52:30.760 right, and being accountable to that that's a great thing. Yeah, 829 00:52:30.719 --> 00:52:34.559 I totally advocate for that. I don't advocate for doing that within a sin 830 00:52:34.679 --> 00:52:38.679 construct or a sin model, because again, it's arbitrary, it's ambiguous. 831 00:52:38.840 --> 00:52:42.960 I don't think it's helpful, and if anything, it's caused people to have 832 00:52:43.039 --> 00:52:46.920 a lot of issues within themselves that they've had to resolve after they've left religion 833 00:52:46.960 --> 00:52:51.920 because it's so deeply ingrained into some folks psyche. But look, Tyler, 834 00:52:52.000 --> 00:52:54.519 we do have I'm sorry not Tyler Patrick. Tyler was our last caller. 835 00:52:54.599 --> 00:52:58.679 Patrick. We do have legidio because we are running a little bit low one 836 00:52:58.719 --> 00:53:01.159 time for this call, um, But I do appreciate you calling in and 837 00:53:01.159 --> 00:53:05.039 sharing your respective But I hope, I hope what we said makes sense, 838 00:53:05.480 --> 00:53:08.800 um, in regards to why I don't like when people say, oh, 839 00:53:08.840 --> 00:53:13.599 I realized, like I was a sinner. I came back to because I 840 00:53:13.599 --> 00:53:16.719 really realized I was a sinner. I'm like, yeah, and again, 841 00:53:16.719 --> 00:53:20.280 we can't really unpack that. From a professional level, I would just say 842 00:53:20.280 --> 00:53:24.159 that scamp people and maybe even see can't secular help. Um, But I 843 00:53:24.320 --> 00:53:27.960 take care of yourself. Many, Yeah, whatever, whatever you're going through, 844 00:53:27.960 --> 00:53:30.320 whatever you're like working through with that, like, I hope you find 845 00:53:30.480 --> 00:53:35.239 help that you need. And I'll leave it at that, right, Um, 846 00:53:35.280 --> 00:53:37.599 But let's go ahead and move on. Let's let's let's look at our 847 00:53:37.599 --> 00:53:40.840 top five patrons. We got to get that done today. So I am 848 00:53:40.880 --> 00:53:45.880 going to read, uh, the top five patrons for today if you want 849 00:53:45.920 --> 00:53:49.559 to support us, you can totally do that at tiny dot cc slash, 850 00:53:49.639 --> 00:53:52.360 Patreon thh. And if you are a top five donor, then you will 851 00:53:52.840 --> 00:53:54.519 get the shout out on here, which we always do here on talk even. 852 00:53:54.559 --> 00:53:58.519 But we are going to do our top five here are. Number one 853 00:53:58.639 --> 00:54:02.719 is of course Dingleberry action always love reading that name. Number two is I 854 00:54:04.000 --> 00:54:07.880 yam a. Number three is oops all Singularity. Number four is Dave or 855 00:54:07.960 --> 00:54:15.239 Valgian. Number five is kal kaleval Hallev. My contexts are not doing me 856 00:54:15.280 --> 00:54:19.559 any favors today, Jamie. There's like, I'm also like kind of blind 857 00:54:19.599 --> 00:54:22.440 today. It's like not, it's not great. We need one of us 858 00:54:22.440 --> 00:54:24.960 to do you see the lengthy mus go to to get a fraction of my 859 00:54:25.079 --> 00:54:30.360 lack of pallets. It's it's not looking good for me today. Um. 860 00:54:30.519 --> 00:54:32.480 And then of course our honorable mention is going to go to Carol Lynn. 861 00:54:32.639 --> 00:54:37.480 So thank you so much to everybody that donates on the TALKI than patron. 862 00:54:37.119 --> 00:54:39.480 Of course, Jamie and I do not get paid to do the show, 863 00:54:39.559 --> 00:54:43.239 nor do any the volunteers that help make the show have it, but it 864 00:54:43.280 --> 00:54:46.280 does help perpetuate the mission of the ACA and for that we aren't grateful. 865 00:54:46.519 --> 00:54:50.960 Um, so let's go ahead, and uh, I think we can take 866 00:54:51.000 --> 00:54:54.480 another caller. Let's just let's let's do it. Uh, let's see. 867 00:54:54.880 --> 00:54:59.840 Uh oh, this is an interesting one. We have Innocent, who is 868 00:55:00.039 --> 00:55:05.159 calling in from Malawi. Innocent, you are live on TALKII then Okay, 869 00:55:05.280 --> 00:55:08.760 First of all, I'm glad that there's a show that matches my time soon 870 00:55:08.880 --> 00:55:15.039 because most of their shows, said Jacket one. Yeah, I imagine you're 871 00:55:15.079 --> 00:55:19.159 the maybe the only person I've ever talked to in my life from Malawi. 872 00:55:19.360 --> 00:55:21.880 So I'm gonna have to trust you on that because I don't know where where 873 00:55:22.239 --> 00:55:24.239 it would be at time zone wise. I guess it's centralized. Yeah, 874 00:55:24.360 --> 00:55:31.239 that makes sense, but it's it's central African type. Oh okay, okay, 875 00:55:31.320 --> 00:55:35.320 yeah, that's interesting. Okay, So, uh, Innocent, what 876 00:55:35.360 --> 00:55:39.719 do you got for a say? So you guys believe that believes are no 877 00:55:39.880 --> 00:55:46.639 choices right doing well? Personally, we're talking about determinism. Yeah, And 878 00:55:47.159 --> 00:55:53.880 my thoughts on determinism are that if I had the capacity to anticipate all of 879 00:55:53.920 --> 00:55:59.920 the myriad inputs and senses and physics and stuff of the universe, that all 880 00:56:00.199 --> 00:56:04.639 if alls other things could be modeled then yeah, maybe there is no actual 881 00:56:04.760 --> 00:56:09.079 free will, But because the system is so amazingly complex and there's no way 882 00:56:09.079 --> 00:56:13.440 to comprehend it, I'm going to move forward through life thinking that I have 883 00:56:13.519 --> 00:56:15.960 choices and acting that I have choices, because hey, it's worked out so 884 00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:21.760 far, and you know, worrying about my fate being predetermined does me no 885 00:56:21.880 --> 00:56:25.360 good. Yeah, Like, I think I would kind of echo that I'm 886 00:56:25.360 --> 00:56:30.320 I'm like a determinist as well. In that sense, I am mostly a 887 00:56:30.440 --> 00:56:36.280 naturalist, mostly a physicalist, more importantly a constructive empiricist. But at the 888 00:56:36.360 --> 00:56:39.760 end of the day, I don't really have room for forces outside of really 889 00:56:39.960 --> 00:56:45.639 physically describable ones that would be able to determine my decisions. Right, So 890 00:56:45.800 --> 00:56:49.599 I think I, as a person, objectively dan is a physical system and 891 00:56:49.760 --> 00:56:52.760 is therefore subject to the laws of nature. Right, So I may have 892 00:56:52.840 --> 00:56:55.920 the illusion of free will, but I think like, in an ultimate sense, 893 00:56:57.079 --> 00:57:00.000 I may not actually have it. So yeah, it's kind of complicated 894 00:57:00.440 --> 00:57:02.639 hold into the universe in which we resigned, Right So anyway, that's our 895 00:57:02.719 --> 00:57:07.119 that's our take on that. Okay, So my question is, what's the 896 00:57:07.239 --> 00:57:10.440 point of these kind of shows, of these core inshows I mean, I 897 00:57:10.480 --> 00:57:15.079 can come in give my evidents. You gave you allsions. Why you're not 898 00:57:15.119 --> 00:57:20.719 condusted that at the end of the day, no one's mind would be changed 899 00:57:20.800 --> 00:57:25.280 because we are not conducted by what other people to us reject believe. So 900 00:57:25.880 --> 00:57:30.880 well, what's the point of trying to get someone out of religion when it 901 00:57:31.039 --> 00:57:35.840 is not a choice to be in there? Like your question, trynot control 902 00:57:35.960 --> 00:57:40.480 whether they believe it or not. So I think that we are physical systems, 903 00:57:40.760 --> 00:57:44.480 right, I think that we exist in the physical world. We're a 904 00:57:44.519 --> 00:57:47.840 part of the physical systems. You can change the output of physical systems. 905 00:57:47.840 --> 00:57:53.199 A computer is a completely deterministic machine, but I can choose whether to make 906 00:57:53.239 --> 00:57:58.760 an open Microsoft word or Adobe Photoshop, right, Like, I still interact 907 00:57:58.800 --> 00:58:01.320 with it and change its outcome. So I think human beings are the same 908 00:58:01.320 --> 00:58:06.880 way. Just because we're determinous systems doesn't mean that we can't change the way 909 00:58:06.920 --> 00:58:10.800 that we operate. Yeah, I was a Christian. I'm actually very public 910 00:58:10.840 --> 00:58:14.800 about this. There's a video you can see of me as a Christian talking 911 00:58:14.880 --> 00:58:20.760 to an atheist, and I had my beliefs changed and we I really mean 912 00:58:20.800 --> 00:58:23.119 it when when I say that our emails. We literally get people every week 913 00:58:23.199 --> 00:58:27.800 from folks saying, oh wow, like this show changed my mind on a 914 00:58:27.800 --> 00:58:30.360 lot of things. So M yeah, we may not change every single caller's 915 00:58:30.400 --> 00:58:32.800 mind. I think that's true, right. I don't expect people to just 916 00:58:32.920 --> 00:58:37.400 completely change their worldview after a single conversation. But our clips and our videos 917 00:58:37.440 --> 00:58:42.519 get watched by thousands of people, and some of those people are thinking about 918 00:58:42.599 --> 00:58:45.800 things in a new way. And I think that's that's the kind of change 919 00:58:45.800 --> 00:58:49.280 I'm interested in and looking for. And he's the other side of that coin, 920 00:58:49.320 --> 00:58:52.159 in the fact that, although you know, he's very obvious that we 921 00:58:52.239 --> 00:58:59.360 are challenging my fea stick India stick in sugnatural worldviews, I still am open 922 00:58:59.679 --> 00:59:02.960 to evidence, like again, the ten thousand dollar challenge of can you fix 923 00:59:04.000 --> 00:59:07.079 my eyes? God? Kind of thing may sound facetious, but I'm honestly 924 00:59:07.360 --> 00:59:15.280 like happy if someone could prove give sufficient evidence for something outside of my current 925 00:59:15.320 --> 00:59:19.360 sphere of knowledge. I am going to be so super psyched for that because 926 00:59:19.400 --> 00:59:22.440 that means I'm a little bit better at knowing what world I'm in and which 927 00:59:22.480 --> 00:59:24.079 is one of the things I want to do with my life. Yeah. 928 00:59:24.119 --> 00:59:29.159 Absolutely, So that's a little secret about this show, Innocent, Well it's 929 00:59:29.159 --> 00:59:30.960 a secret, but it's an open secret. I treat every single caller with 930 00:59:31.000 --> 00:59:35.280 respect and with the intention that they're going to listen to me and they may 931 00:59:35.320 --> 00:59:37.960 not change their mind at the end of the day. But I'm also doing 932 00:59:37.960 --> 00:59:40.320 this for an audience. I'm doing this for people who are watching at home, 933 00:59:42.000 --> 00:59:45.599 and like, really, that's what I'm interested in making this content for. 934 00:59:45.639 --> 00:59:49.360 It's not just the conversations I'm having live with the folks here, it's 935 00:59:49.400 --> 00:59:52.119 everybody that's watching. I think that is really where the impact happens most of 936 00:59:52.159 --> 00:59:57.519 the time. And because people's beliefs inform their decision making and reform the way 937 00:59:57.519 --> 01:00:00.440 that they interact with the world, we want to try and have it that 938 01:00:00.480 --> 01:00:02.400 people are making good decisions because this is a world we have to share, 939 01:00:02.599 --> 01:00:06.360 yes, and where we have people that we care about living in it. 940 01:00:06.480 --> 01:00:12.440 Absolutely, So there you go, what do you think could answers? So 941 01:00:12.760 --> 01:00:16.400 I got curious, Yeah, what do you think makes someone it's not a 942 01:00:16.559 --> 01:00:22.239 choice? What makes It's complicated? You know's different people believe things for different 943 01:00:22.280 --> 01:00:25.039 reasons. Like we want to be empiricists. We want to believe because of 944 01:00:25.039 --> 01:00:29.000 evidence, but some people just believe on feeling like it makes them feel nice, 945 01:00:29.079 --> 01:00:30.920 so they'll believe it it's true. We you know, we've I think 946 01:00:31.199 --> 01:00:37.280 the science of psychology has tried to study how people come to beliefs. And 947 01:00:37.320 --> 01:00:40.800 I don't think we have a great explanation as to how we have some ideas, 948 01:00:40.960 --> 01:00:45.079 we have some through lines, but we don't even know how our brains 949 01:00:45.159 --> 01:00:47.840 work. Honestly, Like, as the top neurologists in the world that tell 950 01:00:47.840 --> 01:00:51.920 you how much do we know about our brains, I almost guarantee you they'll 951 01:00:51.960 --> 01:00:54.119 probably say, we don't know as much as we should, right, Like, 952 01:00:54.119 --> 01:00:57.280 like there's so much to human beings that we still don't know. What 953 01:00:57.320 --> 01:01:00.800 we do know is like anecdotes and personal testimony, because that's all we can 954 01:01:00.920 --> 01:01:05.000 do with human beings. Like literally, if a person is saying I changed 955 01:01:05.079 --> 01:01:07.159 my mind because of this, that may not actually be true, like it 956 01:01:07.239 --> 01:01:10.719 may just be a reconstruction, but it can give us a pointer or some 957 01:01:10.760 --> 01:01:14.320 better ideas. The other thing that is, of course, observing people's life. 958 01:01:14.360 --> 01:01:17.159 For me, I encountered a method called street epistemology, and that was 959 01:01:17.239 --> 01:01:22.440 really impactful in the way that I deconstructed my ideas but maybe it wasn't street 960 01:01:22.480 --> 01:01:27.599 epistemology. Maybe it's just like my physiology just happened to react to the ideas 961 01:01:27.639 --> 01:01:30.039 in such a way that made me find them more convincing. Everybody does have 962 01:01:30.039 --> 01:01:36.079 a set of internal values that maybe may not be so malleable, but we 963 01:01:36.119 --> 01:01:39.000 can still make appeals to those values to convince people of ideas, right. 964 01:01:39.119 --> 01:01:45.440 Yeah, And of course, like aspects of neuroscience and the fact that people's 965 01:01:45.440 --> 01:01:50.519 brains are wired differently, if our neurotive vergent will have you know, things 966 01:01:50.519 --> 01:01:52.320 like that, and the way you believe in the way you think is different 967 01:01:52.480 --> 01:01:55.920 to you know, and that has to be taken into a game. Yea. 968 01:01:57.039 --> 01:02:00.519 For the record too, I totally believe that there are people in this 969 01:02:00.559 --> 01:02:05.239 world who, on certain issues it is just literally physically impossible for them to 970 01:02:05.360 --> 01:02:08.119 change their mind about something. I am absolutely I agree there's definitely people like 971 01:02:08.159 --> 01:02:12.000 that. I don't think that's everybody, though. I think if you ask 972 01:02:12.079 --> 01:02:16.039 people and they different surveys that have been done on people's religious beliefs over time 973 01:02:16.280 --> 01:02:22.559 of significant population of people have changed their minds on very fundamental ideas, and 974 01:02:22.599 --> 01:02:24.960 so I definitely know it is possible. Is it possible for everyone. Definitely 975 01:02:24.960 --> 01:02:28.360 not I don't think so, but it is possible for some people, and 976 01:02:28.400 --> 01:02:31.880 I think that's important. Thank you for those answers, because I really wanted 977 01:02:31.920 --> 01:02:37.079 to get the fish point of view on this. As in my country there 978 01:02:37.199 --> 01:02:46.559 is a very sure I think it's about six yeah. Yeah, so actually 979 01:02:46.960 --> 01:02:51.760 this is my first time ever talking to an ee. Well great, I'm 980 01:02:51.800 --> 01:02:53.960 glad you got to talk to Jamie would I would say one thing, there's 981 01:02:54.599 --> 01:02:58.519 there's a difference between the number of atheists and the number of people who will 982 01:02:58.559 --> 01:03:00.320 admit them. That's right, fist, and it depends on things like the 983 01:03:00.400 --> 01:03:05.760 government and stuff like that. That's true pretty much worldwide, atheists are still 984 01:03:06.159 --> 01:03:10.679 probably one of the lowest positively received religious minorities like in the world right, 985 01:03:10.760 --> 01:03:15.360 Like, I don't know if it's the lowest worldwide, it's it's uh, 986 01:03:15.440 --> 01:03:17.719 statistically, from what I've seen from Pew survey, is the lowest in the 987 01:03:17.800 --> 01:03:22.639 United States. I imagine that's true in most in a lot of countries. 988 01:03:22.039 --> 01:03:25.199 Um. But yeah, that's another aspect of it too. There's probably more 989 01:03:25.239 --> 01:03:29.519 people out there than you realize. If you know, MALOI that don't believe 990 01:03:29.639 --> 01:03:32.159 but probably are too afraid to say it. I know people in the US 991 01:03:32.199 --> 01:03:35.920 where it's hard for them to come out. I can't imagine what it's like. 992 01:03:36.079 --> 01:03:37.519 And that's another reason why we do what we do, to give seen 993 01:03:37.719 --> 01:03:43.639 someone a safe space to talk exactly and and a literal safe space to come 994 01:03:43.679 --> 01:03:47.199 in and be yes, yes, we totally believe that's a good thing. 995 01:03:47.280 --> 01:03:51.000 But yeah, and he said, any other thoughts you had before we wrap 996 01:03:51.079 --> 01:03:54.400 up this call? No, no, weedy, because I guess, yeah, 997 01:03:54.480 --> 01:04:00.159 you did check that off the buckets to make equis you. Yeah, 998 01:04:00.159 --> 01:04:03.880 so if you ask me a question, you can go and do it. 999 01:04:04.079 --> 01:04:08.679 To be honest, we we I don't know. We have other callers that 1000 01:04:08.800 --> 01:04:11.199 definitely want to talk to us, but do feel free to call back. 1001 01:04:11.400 --> 01:04:13.639 We're all questions we could ask. We just don't have the time to go 1002 01:04:13.679 --> 01:04:16.360 over and like what do you believe? Ye, why the whole epistemology thing? 1003 01:04:16.960 --> 01:04:20.559 Exact time? It definitely since this is a good time for you to 1004 01:04:20.639 --> 01:04:24.559 watch the show, call in with another host and be like, hey, 1005 01:04:24.760 --> 01:04:28.960 this I believe in X y Z and then have those hosts ask you questions 1006 01:04:28.960 --> 01:04:30.559 about it. And that's a that's a great way to start a dialogue. 1007 01:04:30.559 --> 01:04:32.880 With us, But for now, we do have other callers that want to 1008 01:04:32.880 --> 01:04:34.760 talk to us, so we're gonna go ahead and get to them. But 1009 01:04:34.840 --> 01:04:40.280 Innocent, thank you so much for calling us. And great conversation. What 1010 01:04:40.360 --> 01:04:43.559 a great We're having some good conversations today. I'm not for us one. 1011 01:04:44.199 --> 01:04:46.199 Well, they can't all be good, you know what I mean. That's 1012 01:04:46.400 --> 01:04:50.599 that's that's the that's the nature of the game, baby. But we are 1013 01:04:50.880 --> 01:04:55.519 doing another quick announcement here and then we'll get at least one other caller, 1014 01:04:55.599 --> 01:05:00.800 maybe two other callers after that. I want to let you guys know or 1015 01:05:00.800 --> 01:05:04.239 at least consider the thought. Have you ever said, Man, I love 1016 01:05:04.400 --> 01:05:08.039 the ACA and I just want to listen to it like all the time, 1017 01:05:08.159 --> 01:05:11.199 just like twenty four seven. I want to listen to it while I'm sleeping. 1018 01:05:11.320 --> 01:05:14.559 It's gonna be like that episode of Dexter's Laboratory where like he listens to 1019 01:05:14.599 --> 01:05:17.320 the iline do fromage where it's like, I don't know what will we say. 1020 01:05:17.400 --> 01:05:20.320 We would say like where's your evidence or something? It's something lame, 1021 01:05:20.360 --> 01:05:24.800 anybody, what do you believe in? What? Yeah, so you can 1022 01:05:24.840 --> 01:05:28.079 do that. You can brainwash yourself if you want to. With our products. 1023 01:05:28.880 --> 01:05:30.960 The AC is gonna love that I said that, But like, look, 1024 01:05:30.039 --> 01:05:32.519 if you want to listen to the shows twenty four seven, you could 1025 01:05:32.519 --> 01:05:36.400 do it. We have not just one live stream, but two twenty four 1026 01:05:36.480 --> 01:05:41.199 seven live streams. You can check out one on YouTube and another one on 1027 01:05:41.360 --> 01:05:45.360 Twitch. Maybe we're on Twitch now, and I believe this is also streaming 1028 01:05:45.480 --> 01:05:47.639 on Twitch, which we should recognize. So hey, shout out to the 1029 01:05:47.679 --> 01:05:50.960 folks on Twitch where we're watching us today. So check out those live streams. 1030 01:05:50.960 --> 01:05:56.119 Not only do we have pretty much all episodes of Atheists Experience, but 1031 01:05:56.239 --> 01:05:59.159 also we've got talkathen clips in there, We've got Truth want to clips in 1032 01:05:59.199 --> 01:06:00.760 there, Psychically Sexual Audience, and like you know, pretty much all of 1033 01:06:00.800 --> 01:06:03.840 our shows are on there, so check it out if you want to see 1034 01:06:03.840 --> 01:06:06.800 some of the old stuff. And there's pretty much always people in the chat 1035 01:06:06.840 --> 01:06:10.199 there, so if you just want to talk to some other people as well, 1036 01:06:10.280 --> 01:06:12.400 that's a good place to do it. Um, So check out those 1037 01:06:12.480 --> 01:06:15.880 live streams if you haven't already. UM, And uh yeah, let's let's 1038 01:06:15.880 --> 01:06:20.480 take another call, Jamie. We've got some good conversations going so far. 1039 01:06:20.800 --> 01:06:29.599 Let's keep up the trend. I think we should talk to Uh oh, 1040 01:06:29.679 --> 01:06:32.119 let's do. Let's do Quincy. Who's calling in from Texas? Quincy? 1041 01:06:32.199 --> 01:06:35.039 You are live on Talk Heathen. What's going on? Hey? Man? 1042 01:06:35.199 --> 01:06:39.719 Um, I got coop of God he existed. And also most of the 1043 01:06:39.719 --> 01:06:42.760 atheist they don't know there some of themselves to hell. You know. I 1044 01:06:42.800 --> 01:06:45.639 don't want that to happen to you, guys. I love you and Jesus 1045 01:06:45.760 --> 01:06:47.559 loves you. I don't want to go to hell either, No, Um, 1046 01:06:47.679 --> 01:06:51.639 I mean I will be frank. I don't believe that hell's a real 1047 01:06:51.679 --> 01:06:55.760 place. But maybe you can convince me of the wise And I am fascinated. 1048 01:06:55.800 --> 01:06:58.159 What you're proof forgot is? Yeah, let's heart, Quincy, what 1049 01:06:58.239 --> 01:07:00.079 you got for it? I got through the I actually I actually got physical 1050 01:07:00.079 --> 01:07:03.559 proof from the Bible. That's health well, physical proof from the Bible. 1051 01:07:03.679 --> 01:07:06.760 Okay, yeah, what does that mean? Physical proof from the Bible? 1052 01:07:06.840 --> 01:07:12.320 Actually to touch a Bible? Bible physical physical proofs Okay, God exists? 1053 01:07:12.360 --> 01:07:15.960 So would you accept then? I have a Koran right here? Does this 1054 01:07:16.079 --> 01:07:20.400 mean that maybe the God of Islam is Okay? How about how about how 1055 01:07:20.440 --> 01:07:24.159 about how about how about this? How about I'll say something the future that's 1056 01:07:24.199 --> 01:07:26.840 going to happen. Say again, how about I'll predict the future in front 1057 01:07:26.840 --> 01:07:30.079 of your face right now? Oh predictions? All right, okay, I'm 1058 01:07:30.079 --> 01:07:32.239 down. What do you got? Okay, in the future might be earthquakes 1059 01:07:32.239 --> 01:07:35.280 and wars. Okay, yeah, yep, that's cool. What does that 1060 01:07:35.320 --> 01:07:38.800 to do with God though, I'm just predicted the future in the front of 1061 01:07:38.840 --> 01:07:41.400 you. Yeah, yeah, I predict that I'm going to take a breath. 1062 01:07:41.920 --> 01:07:44.559 Yeah yeah, I'm just predict the future too. The thing is, 1063 01:07:44.599 --> 01:07:47.760 for predictions to actually be anything other than useless, they have to be specific, 1064 01:07:47.800 --> 01:07:50.920 they have to be explainable by nothing else, and they have to be 1065 01:07:51.000 --> 01:07:54.880 useful. So can you give us one that meets those criteria? All right? 1066 01:07:55.039 --> 01:07:57.760 Um, well I got one that's that's going to be recently. You're 1067 01:07:57.760 --> 01:08:00.320 gonna you're gonna deny that God. That's not a prediction that he's just an 1068 01:08:00.360 --> 01:08:04.360 observation. Yeah, we've already denied it. So that's not even like new 1069 01:08:04.400 --> 01:08:08.760 information that the basic pattern recognition. Yeah. Well, it's up to you 1070 01:08:08.760 --> 01:08:12.320 guys whether you believe or not. Because the Bible say, okay, so 1071 01:08:12.440 --> 01:08:15.119 God's real. Because the Bible says he's real, Why should we listen to 1072 01:08:15.199 --> 01:08:18.640 what the Bible has to say because because of God's word. And how do 1073 01:08:18.720 --> 01:08:24.520 we know that? Because the oh okay, so let's break this down right, 1074 01:08:25.079 --> 01:08:30.920 Bible says that God's real and we should believe in the Bible because it's 1075 01:08:30.960 --> 01:08:33.920 God's word, and we know it's God's word because it says it in the 1076 01:08:33.960 --> 01:08:36.520 Bible. Am I fallow? Am I falling through? Correct? I just 1077 01:08:36.520 --> 01:08:41.159 want to make sure. Couldn't see you there? Oh no, Quincy, 1078 01:08:41.159 --> 01:08:45.960 we lost him. Well, that is what's called a circular argument. We 1079 01:08:45.000 --> 01:08:48.119 don't accept that because it's circular, right, doesn't really go anywhere. I 1080 01:08:48.159 --> 01:08:51.199 could say, literally the exact same thing if any other book I could pick 1081 01:08:51.279 --> 01:08:54.920 up, pretend this is a book. Yeah, I was thinking that was 1082 01:08:54.960 --> 01:09:00.039 the Bible. Bad Gita says that Hinduism is real and that the Hindu gods 1083 01:09:00.039 --> 01:09:02.560 are real and we can trust it because this is the word of the Hindu 1084 01:09:02.600 --> 01:09:04.800 gods. That's not what the black of bye Gita is. But you know, 1085 01:09:04.880 --> 01:09:09.600 Toto scrolls, uh, yeah, you could really literally do anything. 1086 01:09:09.760 --> 01:09:15.319 So not really super convinced on that and think he's the bodyble, he's not 1087 01:09:15.359 --> 01:09:18.159 the pretty It easily claim Yeah, that's right, that's right. Well that 1088 01:09:18.279 --> 01:09:21.439 was disappointing. I think we should do another call. Um, let's see, 1089 01:09:21.920 --> 01:09:27.159 let's talk to Let's talk to Love is my religion? Calling from New 1090 01:09:27.239 --> 01:09:30.479 Jersey. Love is my religion. You are live on? Talk Heathen? 1091 01:09:30.560 --> 01:09:32.640 What's up? Love is my religion? Are you there? All right? 1092 01:09:32.680 --> 01:09:35.760 I think we have also lost this person. I got to return you into 1093 01:09:35.760 --> 01:09:41.640 the queue just in case we uh still have you. But I am going 1094 01:09:41.680 --> 01:09:47.680 to switch to somebody else. Let's talk to another person we have. Oh, 1095 01:09:47.680 --> 01:09:51.720 this is a good one. Let's talk to Uh. This is Cairo, 1096 01:09:53.359 --> 01:09:58.119 Cairo, Cairo, who's calling from Montana? Kiro? If I'm mispronouncing 1097 01:09:58.119 --> 01:10:00.319 that, please let me know. Kiro, you're live on? And tark 1098 01:10:00.359 --> 01:10:02.720 Ethan, what's up? Hi? And it is? It is Charis right? 1099 01:10:03.119 --> 01:10:09.319 Um? I actually wanted to ask Jamie about his experience with religion, 1100 01:10:09.399 --> 01:10:14.159 if he has any Um like, I grew up in a religious household or 1101 01:10:14.159 --> 01:10:17.800 whatever, and I was I was kind of curious about any intersections who might 1102 01:10:17.840 --> 01:10:25.520 have experienced between religion and being blind and okay, well that was like yeah, 1103 01:10:25.600 --> 01:10:30.319 so, um, I grew up in a relatively secular household. I 1104 01:10:30.520 --> 01:10:33.520 was baptized Roman Catholic and confirmed though I did not take the Eucharist. I 1105 01:10:33.560 --> 01:10:39.000 did not God. I didn't attend many services, and that was mainly to 1106 01:10:39.039 --> 01:10:43.960 aplicate my Irish Catholic grandparents. I said my prayers when I was a kid. 1107 01:10:44.680 --> 01:10:49.239 I also went to an Anglican school, so it's a religious primary and 1108 01:10:50.239 --> 01:10:55.439 from age K through eleven so to speak, okay, three twelve, So 1109 01:10:55.560 --> 01:10:59.920 we did hymns, we did prayers, we did the Nativity at Christmas and 1110 01:11:00.079 --> 01:11:04.680 things like that. But it was very it was not pushed hard upon us 1111 01:11:04.760 --> 01:11:09.520 that this was the truth and the light. But I come from England, 1112 01:11:09.520 --> 01:11:13.399 which is a more secular society in general than the UK than the US. 1113 01:11:15.720 --> 01:11:18.840 Now I have had more interaction with the supernatural in general because while my mother, 1114 01:11:18.920 --> 01:11:24.520 who's who was her parents, who were the Catholic grand parents that wanted 1115 01:11:24.600 --> 01:11:28.920 us in the faith, broke away from that, she did not lose her 1116 01:11:29.880 --> 01:11:35.920 love of wonder and has and still keeps some supernatural ideas and she might be 1117 01:11:35.920 --> 01:11:45.800 watching now him. But so talking about things that have supernatural background are very 1118 01:11:45.880 --> 01:11:50.239 much part of how I grew up and how I became a skeptic and started 1119 01:11:50.279 --> 01:11:55.399 realizing how to try and find out what was true as it pertains to my 1120 01:11:55.520 --> 01:12:00.520 visual impairment. Of course, I have seen the folly of it. Necessory 1121 01:12:00.560 --> 01:12:02.840 prayer. I'll pray for your son's eyes. I'll pray for your son's eyes, 1122 01:12:02.880 --> 01:12:06.760 says Nan and Granddad and all of their friends. And it didn't work. 1123 01:12:08.399 --> 01:12:12.479 And then we went for a faith healing, not a Christian faith healing, 1124 01:12:12.600 --> 01:12:15.239 but through a probably a con man. And I think I called in 1125 01:12:15.279 --> 01:12:18.319 to an earlier show regarding that, and so I'll spare the goody details. 1126 01:12:18.319 --> 01:12:24.239 But basically that didn't work either. So any time that faith and my eyes 1127 01:12:24.520 --> 01:12:30.159 interceded I was, it was no effect at least in improving the condition itself. 1128 01:12:31.399 --> 01:12:35.039 The one cool thing that I did get was that I got large print 1129 01:12:35.079 --> 01:12:39.880 Bibles, so I was given free bibles, being the large print if I 1130 01:12:39.920 --> 01:12:45.039 wanted to read them. But other than that, it hasn't really intersected. 1131 01:12:45.039 --> 01:12:48.720 My disability was dealt with by the National Health Service, which is a secular 1132 01:12:48.840 --> 01:12:55.479 organization of the UK government, and are the charities at the Royal r and 1133 01:12:55.520 --> 01:12:59.119 IB Royal National Institute from for the Blind, which I guess is tangentially related 1134 01:12:59.119 --> 01:13:01.600 to God because of the oils are pointed by ard dispose. That's about it 1135 01:13:01.600 --> 01:13:06.279 really. Yeah, there you go. We'm glad we captured your biography on 1136 01:13:06.479 --> 01:13:10.840 Park Heathen now so folks can know you a little bit more. So what 1137 01:13:10.840 --> 01:13:14.720 what what aspects are you looking to pick out of there? What questions you 1138 01:13:14.760 --> 01:13:17.560 have? Oh? Well, I was just curious because, um, I 1139 01:13:17.560 --> 01:13:21.039 mean I've seen you on the show once or twice and I really enjoyed your 1140 01:13:21.079 --> 01:13:24.960 perspective and stuff, and I was just kind of curious about your life and 1141 01:13:25.880 --> 01:13:29.640 you know, yeah, well thank you. I mean, so I was 1142 01:13:29.720 --> 01:13:32.760 just curious. I mean, if you want to know more about the religious 1143 01:13:32.760 --> 01:13:35.720 background in the UK, I mean you can, you can, you can 1144 01:13:35.760 --> 01:13:39.159 sort of read upon it. We were quite a melting pot as well, 1145 01:13:39.239 --> 01:13:43.800 Like I hung around with a lot of Sikhs and Muslims and a few Jewish 1146 01:13:43.880 --> 01:13:46.560 people because we're a big old melting pot, especially Birming where I grew up. 1147 01:13:46.600 --> 01:13:49.880 So look up those religions as well, because I crashed into those a 1148 01:13:49.920 --> 01:13:54.399 bunch too. So yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. Yeah, 1149 01:13:54.600 --> 01:13:58.039 but I just I just know that, especially in the US, you 1150 01:13:58.079 --> 01:14:00.520 find a lot of there are a lot of people who grow up with all 1151 01:14:00.560 --> 01:14:08.279 sorts of disabilities and stuff where religious like there are these really kind of horrifying 1152 01:14:08.399 --> 01:14:15.600 intersections between the you know, their experiences with religion and whatever their disability is. 1153 01:14:15.000 --> 01:14:17.479 And I was just, yeah, I was curious if if that was 1154 01:14:17.520 --> 01:14:21.319 something that, I mean, you want to get cynical. Praying on people's 1155 01:14:21.319 --> 01:14:28.920 disabilities and illnesses is affector by which certain religious groups get people in promises of 1156 01:14:28.960 --> 01:14:33.079 healing, promises of comfort, promises of a better life after this one, 1157 01:14:33.119 --> 01:14:36.840 even though you've been dealt a craphand and I have no truck with any of 1158 01:14:36.880 --> 01:14:41.800 that. Yeah, Yeah, for sure, absolutely, Yeah, And I'm 1159 01:14:41.960 --> 01:14:44.760 I'm glad that you know, Like you know, we're joking when we were 1160 01:14:44.800 --> 01:14:46.479 saying, like, hey, you know, anybody that wants to call and 1161 01:14:46.520 --> 01:14:49.319 pray and he'll you know, like obviously we don't expect that to happen, 1162 01:14:49.399 --> 01:14:53.359 but like you know, it is a point that we're trying to make here, 1163 01:14:53.359 --> 01:14:55.840 Like, look, when we really want this to happen, You've had 1164 01:14:55.880 --> 01:14:58.600 your entire life to have it happen, and it hasn't. It's like, 1165 01:14:58.640 --> 01:15:00.960 what what does it mean you say that this religion can do these things? 1166 01:15:01.000 --> 01:15:05.319 Like what makes this so special that you know no one knows the caveat you'll 1167 01:15:05.399 --> 01:15:10.520 like these because you deserve it right, and that's terrible, especially if you're 1168 01:15:10.520 --> 01:15:14.279 talking to like fucking children, like but also like if you don't even know 1169 01:15:14.399 --> 01:15:16.520 that person and you're just going to make a blanket judgment like that. I 1170 01:15:16.560 --> 01:15:20.159 mean, that's just fucking shitty. I don't know anyway, not too much 1171 01:15:20.159 --> 01:15:25.119 students. Yeah, well, Kyro, I appreciate you calling in and given 1172 01:15:25.199 --> 01:15:29.520 Jamie a chance to speak about his past because I like hearing about it too. 1173 01:15:29.520 --> 01:15:30.239 Thanks so much. I'm gonna go ahead and let you go, though, 1174 01:15:30.600 --> 01:15:34.000 because we are going to try to squeeze at least one more caller in 1175 01:15:34.199 --> 01:15:39.439 today. I do have permission from the crew to go a little bit over, 1176 01:15:39.520 --> 01:15:43.560 so we're going into overtime. Yeah, let's do it. Okay, 1177 01:15:43.560 --> 01:15:47.159 So we got We're gonna try talking to Love is my religion again, Love 1178 01:15:47.239 --> 01:15:50.800 is my religion from New Jersey? Are you with us? You are alive 1179 01:15:50.880 --> 01:15:55.800 on talk Heathen Ah, still not there, don't know what's going on. 1180 01:15:55.920 --> 01:16:00.079 I'm gonna have to return you back to the queum. Yeah. We we 1181 01:16:00.079 --> 01:16:02.039 want to be able to have a conversation. I have a just a monologue 1182 01:16:02.039 --> 01:16:05.600 here. That's that's not a calling show, that's just a podcast. You 1183 01:16:05.640 --> 01:16:13.039 know, we're better than that. So anyway, let's see we know, 1184 01:16:14.239 --> 01:16:16.680 I mean like a little bit. Yeah, we look, we got a 1185 01:16:16.720 --> 01:16:23.119 lot of cool conversations today. I'm really happy with today's show. We have 1186 01:16:23.279 --> 01:16:26.760 at least one. Yeah, let's see. I want to Oh this is 1187 01:16:26.880 --> 01:16:30.239 man. We're getting calls from all over the place today, Jamie. We 1188 01:16:30.319 --> 01:16:34.840 have uh this is r F E RFB calling from Thailand. Uh so yeah, 1189 01:16:34.960 --> 01:16:41.039 Thailand, Malawi, all over the place to say you're alive on Talk 1190 01:16:41.079 --> 01:16:44.680 Heathen. What do you got? Oh, so, greeting us as a 1191 01:16:44.760 --> 01:16:46.960 prompt, said I it's it's not small. I mean, it's kind of 1192 01:16:47.039 --> 01:16:51.920 half question, half um conversation. It's kind of concerning about the definition of 1193 01:16:53.039 --> 01:16:59.039 fate and how the commission your conversation is held between um atheist and thieists. 1194 01:16:59.399 --> 01:17:02.359 Yeah. Absolutely, can you elaborate on that? So? Um, I 1195 01:17:02.399 --> 01:17:10.239 think when theist I claim that atheists have faith, I think they usually mean 1196 01:17:10.319 --> 01:17:15.840 that atheists, although as you know, it's not necessary that it being an 1197 01:17:15.840 --> 01:17:21.159 atheist would assume on once believe in other things. But I think most people 1198 01:17:21.199 --> 01:17:26.039 would, I think things would assume that atheists believes in science the same way 1199 01:17:26.279 --> 01:17:29.680 they believed in God. Either, it's not not true and not for me. 1200 01:17:29.800 --> 01:17:32.560 But but I think concerning this issue, I think I do have something 1201 01:17:32.600 --> 01:17:36.520 that you would call faith, But I'm not sure how I would go about 1202 01:17:36.560 --> 01:17:42.199 explaining that or you know, when if the conversation should come up, well, 1203 01:17:42.239 --> 01:17:45.560 you know, it could be perfectly appropriate to have faith. It just 1204 01:17:45.600 --> 01:17:47.439 depends on what you mean by faith, right, So let's start with that. 1205 01:17:47.520 --> 01:17:50.039 What do you mean when you use the word faith? Um, I 1206 01:17:50.319 --> 01:17:56.359 in this case, I was talking about sexual conviction or at least some kind 1207 01:17:56.399 --> 01:18:01.319 of conviction in something that that there is no evidence of. M Yeah, 1208 01:18:01.560 --> 01:18:05.840 except I think in my case, I mean as as an atheist and also 1209 01:18:05.960 --> 01:18:11.279 a naturalist, I would say I still have to assume. That is why 1210 01:18:11.279 --> 01:18:15.119 I think it still counts at faith counts as a faith. You know that 1211 01:18:15.159 --> 01:18:19.800 I can ignore external word skepticism and that there are patterns you know that you 1212 01:18:19.840 --> 01:18:25.039 know that the external word skepticism and problem of induction. Yes, I think 1213 01:18:25.079 --> 01:18:29.479 that's why I think I tech me to still have faith. And I'm not 1214 01:18:29.520 --> 01:18:34.600 sure if um the other atheists who have a similar belief or epistemology with me 1215 01:18:34.680 --> 01:18:40.279 would agree with me with using the term like that. Yeah, I mean 1216 01:18:40.479 --> 01:18:44.880 getting tied up in. I mean, it is important to define what you 1217 01:18:44.880 --> 01:18:46.199 mean when you say something. And of course faith is one of those words 1218 01:18:46.239 --> 01:18:49.560 that gets sticky because of the Council of faith as in the faith right, 1219 01:18:49.680 --> 01:18:58.199 and then faith as in trust or conviction or priornology. It's almost links into 1220 01:18:58.199 --> 01:19:00.800 things like pragmatism, like this is what before it will work again. So, 1221 01:19:01.479 --> 01:19:05.760 um, we colloquially use faith to mean basically, I have trusted in 1222 01:19:05.800 --> 01:19:12.079 this, and usually you can explain your faith and why we get so frustrated 1223 01:19:12.119 --> 01:19:14.319 as atheists when you say, no, you have faith just like a person 1224 01:19:14.359 --> 01:19:15.520 who believes in God. It's like, no, my faith is based on 1225 01:19:15.560 --> 01:19:20.880 something other than just because yeah, I mean, at least I can I 1226 01:19:20.920 --> 01:19:25.840 can defend like but at least at least peers would have to assume that the 1227 01:19:25.960 --> 01:19:29.399 exponent will exist they want to interact with it, and at least they have 1228 01:19:29.439 --> 01:19:32.640 to assume some pattern that I would guess there would be to assume that the 1229 01:19:32.720 --> 01:19:36.680 word of God is through all the times. That's like how we assume that 1230 01:19:36.960 --> 01:19:43.079 science works not really a natural process, have some consistency, I think how 1231 01:19:43.119 --> 01:19:45.880 we do it. But every time faith is tested in a scientific sense, 1232 01:19:45.920 --> 01:19:47.079 it tends to fourth apart. Yeah, so, yeah, I have a 1233 01:19:47.119 --> 01:19:49.960 lot of thoughts about this, Right, So you're talking about external world skepticism, 1234 01:19:50.079 --> 01:19:55.760 right, Like, why don't we just identify as epistemic nihilists or trivialists 1235 01:19:55.800 --> 01:19:59.319 even let's say like all things are true because we don't know if we're not 1236 01:19:59.399 --> 01:20:01.720 brains in a a right, and so like, you know, my response 1237 01:20:01.720 --> 01:20:04.520 to this is yeah, kind of like with Jamie's saying, right, like, 1238 01:20:04.600 --> 01:20:08.560 and actually what you said, which is, um, I don't actually 1239 01:20:08.600 --> 01:20:13.159 have to believe that I'm not a brain in the vat and still recognize patterns 1240 01:20:13.399 --> 01:20:15.279 within the world. I could very well be a brain in the vat and 1241 01:20:15.399 --> 01:20:19.199 still say, hey, there's consistency in the world and in our observations, 1242 01:20:19.399 --> 01:20:23.720 right, because that's kind of all I have. That's like the only thing 1243 01:20:23.760 --> 01:20:28.960 we could make beliefs off of, right, it is known to me? 1244 01:20:29.239 --> 01:20:31.159 Sure. Yeah. When I was a Christian, I used Hebrews eleven, 1245 01:20:31.319 --> 01:20:35.279 which is faith is the evidence of things, is the substance of things, 1246 01:20:35.319 --> 01:20:39.960 hope for the evidence of things not seen. Right, So it was literally 1247 01:20:39.960 --> 01:20:43.720 this idea of like trusting without having good reason too. I mean that's how 1248 01:20:43.720 --> 01:20:46.159 you translate that now, Now, Interestingly enough, if you talk to a 1249 01:20:46.199 --> 01:20:50.079 lot of apologists today and I've had these conversations, they will not define faith 1250 01:20:50.119 --> 01:20:53.279 this way, they say. They will say, no, no, you 1251 01:20:53.319 --> 01:20:58.319 know, faith is something that can be defended, that is defensible through evidence. 1252 01:20:58.680 --> 01:21:01.159 And if faith is something that's the fencible through evidence, then that's a 1253 01:21:01.159 --> 01:21:05.840 totally different thing, right, Suddenly that's a worldview that you can have this 1254 01:21:05.920 --> 01:21:11.520 sort of rational debate and discussion on. But if faith is inherently interrational, 1255 01:21:11.680 --> 01:21:15.680 that is literally just trusting because you just want to or you feel like it's 1256 01:21:15.680 --> 01:21:19.640 a good idea too, not really using external variables there, then yeah, 1257 01:21:19.640 --> 01:21:23.199 that's that's a different thing, right, you just haven't thoughts about it, 1258 01:21:23.239 --> 01:21:26.680 right, Yeah, that's like that's like the how do it call it? 1259 01:21:27.119 --> 01:21:30.039 The case of the example case of equivocation? I would say, yeah, 1260 01:21:30.119 --> 01:21:33.880 yeah, yeah, that's why it's important to define our words too. So 1261 01:21:33.920 --> 01:21:36.439 like some people say, oh, well, you must have faith in your 1262 01:21:36.479 --> 01:21:39.840 wife, right, I don't have a wife, but that's what people say, 1263 01:21:39.920 --> 01:21:41.600 right, Oh, you must have faith in the funch world. It's 1264 01:21:41.640 --> 01:21:45.680 like, well, no, like that trust, yeah, they mean trust. 1265 01:21:45.800 --> 01:21:50.279 It's like faith the pattern is my hypothetical wife in this situation, hasn't 1266 01:21:50.520 --> 01:21:55.039 cheated on me or hasn't done anything against what I would want them to do. 1267 01:21:55.199 --> 01:21:58.039 So like, I followed that pattern, and so that leads me to 1268 01:21:58.119 --> 01:22:00.399 believe that they're doing that. They're not cheating or whatever. Right, Like, 1269 01:22:00.399 --> 01:22:04.520 that's that's still pattern recognition. It's just like not as I don't know, 1270 01:22:04.600 --> 01:22:08.920 immediately measurable, but it's still measurable in a way. I mean, 1271 01:22:08.920 --> 01:22:11.680 you can still say, oh, have they done this an X amount of 1272 01:22:11.680 --> 01:22:15.279 time? Right, That's that's still a calculation. And the problem with words 1273 01:22:15.319 --> 01:22:17.000 is that they do get fuzzy when it comes to colloquialisms. And so I 1274 01:22:17.079 --> 01:22:19.079 say I have a little faith, baby, what I mean? He's like, 1275 01:22:19.119 --> 01:22:21.720 don't worry too much about it. You're expressing too much. I don't 1276 01:22:21.760 --> 01:22:26.840 mean, don't believe believe this will happen without any evidence. Ye, stop 1277 01:22:26.880 --> 01:22:29.439 worrying. It is interesting that when people say, oh, well, atheists 1278 01:22:29.479 --> 01:22:32.600 just believe on faith, because they're using faith as a pejorative, right, 1279 01:22:32.640 --> 01:22:35.560 They're like, oh, they're just trusting, And it's like, well, 1280 01:22:35.640 --> 01:22:39.159 wait, isn't that what you're supposed to do? Yeah, Like, isn't 1281 01:22:39.199 --> 01:22:44.039 that anyway? I mean, even even you know problem induction. Yeah, 1282 01:22:44.079 --> 01:22:45.720 I mean, I mean, don't we all have to do that. You 1283 01:22:45.760 --> 01:22:48.199 know, I have to assume that way they cross, or I have to 1284 01:22:48.239 --> 01:22:53.079 assume that there will not be like a card that randomly speed more than I 1285 01:22:53.159 --> 01:22:56.239 used to and it would hit me. But I'll be knowing something like that. 1286 01:22:56.520 --> 01:22:59.680 But I think it's kind of useful and kind of testable, even if 1287 01:22:59.680 --> 01:23:02.600 it's and risky in some case, but at least at least we can get 1288 01:23:02.640 --> 01:23:06.800 knowledge to how we work. Yes, that's how I would defend my position 1289 01:23:06.920 --> 01:23:11.880 if a sis, if a as on that. I mean, it's not 1290 01:23:11.960 --> 01:23:15.119 much as I said, I just want to explore my understanding and kind of 1291 01:23:15.239 --> 01:23:18.239 that's why helped defining words. I think that's all. Yeah, No, 1292 01:23:18.319 --> 01:23:21.439 I understand. This is why I use this term earlier in the show. 1293 01:23:21.600 --> 01:23:28.920 I used empirical constructivists. Right. That specific combination of words means is if 1294 01:23:28.960 --> 01:23:30.359 some of you were to ask me, how do I know that a black 1295 01:23:30.399 --> 01:23:34.279 hole exists like external to the world, and you're not a brain in a 1296 01:23:34.359 --> 01:23:38.439 vat, right, It's like, okay, well, actually, the premise 1297 01:23:38.439 --> 01:23:41.000 of me being a brain in a vet has nothing to do with whether or 1298 01:23:41.000 --> 01:23:45.079 not my observations match up with what we would expect to see with a black 1299 01:23:45.079 --> 01:23:47.359 hole. Right, if we define what we expect to see with a black 1300 01:23:47.399 --> 01:23:53.439 hole as such and such formula between gravity and whatever, and if we translate 1301 01:23:53.520 --> 01:23:57.920 these images from the telescope into these pixels, right, we get to see 1302 01:23:57.920 --> 01:24:01.920 a black hole like that still can follow empirical methodology and have nothing to do 1303 01:24:02.000 --> 01:24:10.000 with any external world claims like that's that's really they Yeah, like you can 1304 01:24:10.079 --> 01:24:13.000 kind of like sidestep that really. I mean like when people say that, 1305 01:24:13.079 --> 01:24:16.239 it's really I mean I don't have access to the external world outside of myself, 1306 01:24:16.319 --> 01:24:18.159 right, so I'm always going to be stuck with that. That's just 1307 01:24:18.600 --> 01:24:20.920 you know, it's not first gold. We had to believe it because you 1308 01:24:20.960 --> 01:24:25.560 believe it. You just believe you believe it. So yeah, yeah, 1309 01:24:25.640 --> 01:24:28.720 yeah, you can still recognize patterns and like, you know what, the 1310 01:24:28.800 --> 01:24:30.479 Bible even calls for you to do that, right, It's like, look, 1311 01:24:30.520 --> 01:24:33.560 how how how many times do they have these calls of faith for to 1312 01:24:33.640 --> 01:24:36.439 say, look, look how God has helped the people of Israel. You 1313 01:24:36.439 --> 01:24:41.079 should be able to trust God because he is always faithful to his people, 1314 01:24:41.279 --> 01:24:45.000 right, and and and and you're supposed to believe that because there's some things 1315 01:24:45.039 --> 01:24:46.920 there otherwise, he just says, so, I guess, but I don't 1316 01:24:46.960 --> 01:24:49.319 know, Like there's still that's that's a human thing to do. That's what 1317 01:24:49.359 --> 01:24:53.880 everybody does, you know. Um. Anyway, I hope we answered your 1318 01:24:53.960 --> 01:24:57.399 questions there, RFB, do any anything else you want to add? Um? 1319 01:24:57.840 --> 01:25:00.359 Nothing, Maybe it's just a little a little bit. That's OURFP stand 1320 01:25:00.399 --> 01:25:04.000 for random format, but it is. I think that's just a soul fun 1321 01:25:04.079 --> 01:25:08.920 fact for you today, A fun fact. I like that. Well, 1322 01:25:09.079 --> 01:25:12.560 thank you so much for the call there. We've we appreciate the conversation. 1323 01:25:12.640 --> 01:25:15.800 We've had prospectives from a lot of different people. Yeay huh. It seems 1324 01:25:15.000 --> 01:25:19.760 I'm drawing people from all over the world Icelanders and stuff. Dude. Last 1325 01:25:19.800 --> 01:25:24.359 time we were on we also have like a worldwide is the world one? 1326 01:25:24.439 --> 01:25:29.119 Yeah, we got like all the continents today. Man, that's really cool. 1327 01:25:29.159 --> 01:25:30.680 Well, I am very satisfied with today's show, Jamie. Do you 1328 01:25:30.680 --> 01:25:33.640 like today's chew? I did. I thought I was pretty dang awesome. 1329 01:25:33.720 --> 01:25:38.279 And thank you folks in the audience too for watching us today. We appreciate 1330 01:25:38.279 --> 01:25:41.680 everyone who came out in person. Um and yeah, that we got a 1331 01:25:41.720 --> 01:25:43.800 little bit of audience camp. There's some folks are in the other room, 1332 01:25:43.840 --> 01:25:46.199 but we got folks who are watching, and of course we are going to 1333 01:25:46.239 --> 01:25:50.840 be in studio for atheists experience, not us. No, we got our 1334 01:25:50.880 --> 01:25:55.560 other two hosts who are coming in to do that, so check that out. 1335 01:25:56.039 --> 01:26:01.479 And one other announcement I wanted to make as well as talking about I 1336 01:26:01.520 --> 01:26:04.199 don't see it on here, so maybe I'm not supposed to talk about it 1337 01:26:04.239 --> 01:26:08.119 yet, so I won't say it. I'm just gonna keep with what's on 1338 01:26:08.159 --> 01:26:13.800 the script. But just FYI, remember we do have our topic this week, 1339 01:26:13.840 --> 01:26:17.239 our talk Heathen to Mey segment wrong answers only when God looked down on 1340 01:26:17.319 --> 01:26:24.319 his creation, he saw it was blank. So reply in the comments and 1341 01:26:24.800 --> 01:26:28.479 let us know what you want to say about that, and we're looking forward 1342 01:26:28.479 --> 01:26:30.760 to seeing what folks have to say. Folks, if you want to support 1343 01:26:30.800 --> 01:26:33.720 the show, please because they're donating on on Patreon, becoming a member or 1344 01:26:33.840 --> 01:26:39.000 at least hitting like and subscribing. It does wonders for us. If you're 1345 01:26:39.000 --> 01:26:43.359 watching this on YouTube or of course following, if you're listening on Spotify wherever 1346 01:26:43.439 --> 01:26:47.479 else you're listening to our podcasts. We really do appreciate all the support that 1347 01:26:47.600 --> 01:26:50.680 we get. Of course, we would be remissed if we didn't thank the 1348 01:26:50.720 --> 01:26:56.520 wonderful, fantastic, stupendous crew that helped make this show happen every single week 1349 01:26:56.680 --> 01:27:02.000 as well. And there's our crew Camo got folks helping us out in the 1350 01:27:02.079 --> 01:27:05.920 back and they are awesome. You can also check out the Facebook page for 1351 01:27:06.079 --> 01:27:11.359 Talk Heathen as well if you want to continue the conversation on there, and 1352 01:27:11.479 --> 01:27:16.479 sometimes not today, but they're also after show discussions as well on the atheist 1353 01:27:16.560 --> 01:27:20.720 community discord Fans servers. So link is going to be there as well, 1354 01:27:21.119 --> 01:27:25.039 but we're both in person here today, so we're not gonna be doing that, 1355 01:27:25.119 --> 01:27:29.319 but in the future you should keep that in mind. So yeah, 1356 01:27:29.359 --> 01:27:31.039 thanks so much, and we did get that audience shot here. I think 1357 01:27:31.039 --> 01:27:34.279 it's time we do our love rings. Ready for the love rings. I 1358 01:27:34.319 --> 01:27:36.960 think I've been practicing a wold month. I'm so glad. Okay, what 1359 01:27:38.119 --> 01:27:42.960 you want to start us off? Then you should start us off? Ready? 1360 01:27:45.000 --> 01:27:48.760 Shoot? That gets like extra Yeah there. I think the sonic amplification, 1361 01:27:49.079 --> 01:27:54.199 it's the visual and audio right right. Love rings are are phenomenon in 1362 01:27:54.279 --> 01:27:58.960 science as yet fully understand, but we are able to do them so and 1363 01:27:59.000 --> 01:28:01.760 I'd like to just hid it. Happy Pride, Happy Pride, Happy Pride 1364 01:28:01.800 --> 01:28:06.319 Month, everybody. Yeah, absolutely, folks, whether or not you believe, 1365 01:28:06.520 --> 01:28:10.319 if you are an essential worker, we want to thank you. If 1366 01:28:10.359 --> 01:28:14.479 you don't believe, this is your community. But if you do believe, 1367 01:28:14.640 --> 01:28:17.199 we don't hate you. Oh whoa. I just got an announcement from the 1368 01:28:17.239 --> 01:28:19.560 crew. Yes it wasn't on the script, but well, I do have 1369 01:28:19.560 --> 01:28:24.479 one more announcement before we go. We have the back Cruise that is coming 1370 01:28:24.600 --> 01:28:29.479 up in August this year. Check that out. Information is there on the 1371 01:28:29.680 --> 01:28:32.359 screen, so if you want to come see some of the hosts in person. 1372 01:28:32.399 --> 01:28:34.800 We got Forest Valkai coming out. We got a bunch of the other 1373 01:28:34.840 --> 01:28:39.720 locals who are going to be here. Check out the back Cruise. Tickets 1374 01:28:39.720 --> 01:28:44.159 are available online and get them while you can because there is a limited number 1375 01:28:44.479 --> 01:28:47.039 and they will sell out. We won't be able to get any more, 1376 01:28:47.039 --> 01:28:50.960 folks, but you know, try to get it while you can because they 1377 01:28:51.000 --> 01:28:55.199 will sell out. They always do. So anyway, that was the announcement 1378 01:28:55.239 --> 01:28:57.560 that I didn't see you on here, but I'm glad the crew will be 1379 01:28:57.720 --> 01:29:01.520 let's let's try this again, Sho. Whether or not you believe, if 1380 01:29:01.640 --> 01:29:05.079 you are an essential worker, we want to thank you. If you do 1381 01:29:05.159 --> 01:29:10.359 believe, this is your community. If you don't believe, we don't hate 1382 01:29:10.359 --> 01:29:13.319 you. We are just not convinced. Thanks so much everybody this has been 1383 01:29:13.359 --> 01:29:15.720 talking. Then I'm objectively Dan, this is Jamie the Blind Limey, and 1384 01:29:15.840 --> 01:29:40.520 we are signing out. Have a good one. We want the truth, 1385 01:29:40.640 --> 01:29:45.159 So watch Truth Wanted live Friday at seven pm Central. Visit tiny dot cc 1386 01:29:45.239 --> 01:29:50.199 slash y t tw and call into the show at five one two nine nine 1387 01:29:50.880 --> 01:29:56.680 nine two four two or connect to the show. I'mline at tiny dot cc 1388 01:29:56.840 --> 01:29:58.319 slash call tw