Hey, everybody, Welcome to Coming Out Pod, y'all. I have my
first queer root shout out that was submitted by a listener. Every week I'm
like, hey, hit me up with your personal queer roots, so I
really do mean it. You could message me on Twitter or Instagram or email
Coming Out Pot at gmail dot com. But so this week from a listener,
shout out to you. If your queer root is Kate Jackson. If
that name sounds like vaguely familiar but you can't really place it, Kate Jackson
is probably the probably the least famous of the three Charlie's Angels, but I
have on good authority that she was the quote lesbian magnet of the Charlie's Angels.
This listener has also informed me that she was in a nineteen seventies show
called The Rookies, which I don't know of it, but it sounds very
gay. And here's a fact. The girl, an upperclassman who I had
a huge crush on in college, went on to play Kate Jackson in the
made for TV Charlie's Angel movie. So it all comes full circle. We're
all connected in one big queer root shuffle. Thank you to the listener who
submitted Kate Jackson as their queer root. Y'all, I am here today with
writer Tanya Dear Rosario. So Tanya's memoir, which is really it's a collection
of essays. It's called Dinner on Monster Island, and it's going to be
coming out on February sixth, very shortly. We are going to talk about
that. It's really it's a beautiful well, we'll talk about it. We'll
get to it. But there are horror elements that are spoken about in the
book and a lot a lot of personal storytelling. It is essentially I mean,
you get you really get Tanya's coming out story over the course of the
essays. But we're gonna we're gonna talk about that. We're gonna talk more
explicitly about Tandy's coming out journey. But Tanya, before we get into all
of that, first and foremost for the listeners, how do you identify?
I identify as queer? Beautiful? Yeah, I love it. Let's leave
it at that. Let's leave to that and get into the nitty gritty when
we're talking about your story and your upbringing. Let's just sort of launch right
into it. Yeah. I think I'm not one hundred percent sure, but
I believe you are my first guests born and raised in Singapore, So yeah,
i'd really love to I'd love to hear where everything began for you in
terms of in terms of your coming out story. Yeah, thank you for
having me be the first Suporion on your firstly glad to be here. So
yes, I was born and raised in Singapore. I spent most of my
adult life there. I got here five years ago. And in terms of
queerness, where that began, I don't know. That's a really hard thing
too. That's a really hard thing to kind of ascertain, right, because
I think there's that period of time where you kind of know in your body,
you understand in your body that something is happening, but you don't necessarily
have language for it. And if we're talking about when I knew I was
queer but didn't necessarily have words for it, I think that was definitely when
I was a kid, I think from a young as eight or nine and
liking goals and not really understanding that that was what was happening. And I
think what was in terms of having language for these experiences and coming out,
I think, you know, I grew up in a place where positive representations
of queer people were illegal on public television. This was in the eighties.
But so yes, what I'm trying to say by this is I knew I
liked girls. I had no language for it. And my first learning is
about homosexuality were not from media and not from pop culture. They basically were
from my mother, who was extremely religious and so queer people or if i'm
if I'm more through to the time in which has happened, homosexuals were presented
to me a sinners. So that was my first, my first understanding of
what queerness was. And this started when my mother started becoming more vocal about
this when I was around eleven or twelve, likely because I had started dressing
at the time more like like a boy. For listeners, I said that
in air quotes because gender and clothing is a fask yeah, no, thank
you? Yeah, so yeah. I like I think coming out is a
really kind of amorphous concept in many contexts. I don't think it's ever or
maybe for some people it is. I don't think it's ever as clean and
linear as it is presented in a lot of media. That's why I have
a whole podcast about it. Yeah, the same story. I know.
Yeah, so yeah, So I guess the interesting thing was that I learned
about I learned about quinness by learning about what I was not supposed to be,
essentially, and I did not come out as much as I guess I
was yanked out and shown. Sorry, I feel like I dumped ahead for
context. I was gay exercise when I was twelve, so that was kind
of that is what gave me language. Who yeah, and that's kind of
what kicks off the book of essays that experience, which is and I just
I we spoke a little off Mike, or I acknowledge my what I call
my American privilege, which is not we obviously, as you know, we
have plenty of homophobia transphobia in America. However, what you're I just want
to like drive home the fact that these things, showing these things on public
television is literally illegal in Singapore, and that is something that we can't not
in America. And you're in Canada, so I should I should stress that,
not not to say that now you're in America. But yeah, that's
just something that I can have an intellectual understanding of, but I can't.
I cannot really understand the fear that must come with the kind of the dawning
realization that not only am I quote unquote different, but I am the kind
of different that is illegal to show in my country like that just lack of
safety must feel so terrifying. Yeah, I mean, I just want to
emphasize for nuance and accuracy, this issue of this lack of representation was very
much something that was time based too. When I grew up with people who
at the time that you were growing up, we don't yeah, and the
same we didn't have Netflix. So it's just like God, okay. And
so in terms of are you comfortable talking about the the exorcism experience at the
age of twelve, it's obviously it's so beautifully detailed in your in your essay,
But yeah, is at that point did your mom? Was it that
she suspected this about you? Was it that she had found proof? Like
what, this is kind of an extreme thing to make your daughter go through?
So what was her uh, what Prody's to happen? It was a
really specific and strange and weird kind of set of circumstances because I don't think
she planned it. So what okay, what happened? From my pov of.
I came home from school and my mother was waiting at the bus stop,
and she was clearly very emotional about something. And then when I asked
her what was wrong, because she was kind of crying. When I asked
her what had happened, she said, Oh, your grandmother has been saved.
And I already knew that this meant my grandmother converted from Catholicism to evangelical
Christianity. And to me that was kind of a shock because my grandmother was
a very devout Catholic, and that suggested to me that something weird was going
on in my house. I didn't have language for it, but I felt
fear essentially. And this is your is your grandmother, your mom's my mother's
mother. Okay, so she had been your mother had been raised devout Catholic,
and your mother had previously gotten converted to even Gelicalism, and at this
point managed to also convince her mother your grandmother too. Yeah, okay,
yeah, So I lived with my mother and my mother and her parents for
contexts. And what had happened was two people from my mother's church had come
by. They were friends, my mom's friends, and they said that God
had told them to come over to our apartment because they wanted to speak to
my grandmother, who was recently grieving the loss of someone close to her.
And I guess somehow it's that grief they managed. I mean, this is
what happens, right, A lot of people convert to different religions or join
different groups when they are in spaces of vulnerability. And yeah, so that's
what happened. And I honestly think that my coming home during that period of
time was just in some sense bad luck. Like I don't think I don't
think they were there for me. I don't think my mother called to my
knowledge, I don't think my mother called them for me. It was just
kind of opportunistic and so she didn't arrange it, but she let it happen.
Yeah, since you drop by, can you exercise pre daughter? Is
that? And they're like, yeah, we got half an hour? Why
not? Like exactly would you like to upsize? Would you like to upsize
this position? Yeah, they supersized the experience. They upsell then exorcism.
Jesus, I don't mean to joke about this. It's it's okay. I
mean that this happened here and at twelve. This is what so you knew
you liked girls, you maybe didn't have the language like you're talking about gender.
Was that you have a bit of part in the book where you talk
about trying on your grandfather's pants, like were these things going on as well?
So you knew you knew there was stuff, even if you didn't have
the words for it. So yeah, I guess it's uh. I think
you can dress how you know, you dress however you want. You you
go about your day doing whatever you want. It's when somebody points it out
mm hmmm that your mates who realize this is not behave I think that's that's
essentially what difference is in what passing is right, how you pass through the
world without without punishment or with how with whatever amount of ease or whatever amount
of not having to think about these things. So it's a yeah, So
it's not that I knew something was going on until it would be pointed out
to me. Yeah. I definitely had similar experiences when I was younger,
where it's like you're just you're just doing your thing, and then suddenly an
adult gets like very stern about it, and that's when you have the awareness
and it's like, oh yeah, I'm doing something quote unquote wrong. Yeah,
I didn't know that until I got yelled at, like what exactly?
Yeah, okay, okay, So so you go into your home. These
two people are there. They've just gotten your grandmother, so they're feeling pretty
they're on a high, and they're like, let's try to roll it over.
Yep, feeling pretty generous with their time and very skilled, right,
yes, okay, okay, So yeah, do you want to talk at
all about what that experience was? Like I think you say it was like
a seven hour or something ordeal and the Yeah, it's like I have a
lot of it was a lot of repetition. Honestly, it was a lot
of yelling and yell and splice to it remind us that they were not yelling
at me, but they were yelling at what was inside of me, which
was red and confusing honestly, all right, because that's I mean, I
don't know if anyone's ever spoken on this podcast about like an actual exorcism,
but the I mean that's basically saying, like everything that we're doing right now
that is awful is not It's not you, it's the demon inside of you.
So it's literally sort of like it's giving them free license to do whatever
they want because there's a demon inside you, right right? I mean I
also I feel like I also have to say, like exorcism is my word
for it, because I think that's the wood that's understood by people. Like
I'm not sure that this is a word that they would have used. Like
the language that was using on this was costing out. Okay, sure,
yeah, they and gentrified the concept. Let's make it sound more palatable.
That's interesting because I don't I don't necessarily think the church I went to I
did that as a practice, a tradition of so called exossor and these people
were not sent by the church. They were just from our church, right,
improvising, Yeah, improvising freestyling. Yeah. So there was a lot
of yelling, a lot of religious talk. At one point. This sounds
wild, So I always try to find, uh, find a way to
ease into it, but there isn't a way. So they took everything in
my room that had a face, so like that be photographs or posters or
like plushies, and some of them they threw away. A lot of them
they burnt over the stove. Because we're not supposed to. They said,
we're not supposed to have it images of faces surrounding us as a form of
idolatry. Yeah, that was also kind of confusing. Yeah, I don't
I don't know if there's much more detail in terms of different things happening besides
that. A lot of the time they were trying to get me to throw
up in a bucket because apparently that's a sign, that's a sign that the
demon has left. Great, I got rid of a lot of demons in
college. I drank them purchase yep, yep, yep, yep. Did
it seem like, so after this casting out is over, did you did
it feel like your mom was like like problem solved? Like did because you
mentioned in the book that or in the essay that at some point you just
sort of you realize that you have to capitulate in order to make it end.
So you say, like, yes, I acknowledge I'm a sinner.
But then in your head you're saying, but I don't think there's anything wrong
with that. So you're doing the smart thing, which, for the record,
this podcast always tells people like always play it safe, prioritize your safety
both physically and emotionally rather than your truth. Your truth lives inside you and
will always be there if it's a matter of safety. Lie as much as
you have to bend that truth, we want you safe. So so you're
smart enough at twelve to know I have to say what they want me to
say to get this to stop. Yeah, I don't know which is.
I don't know whether it's about being smart as whether it was just like I
am so exhausted, go away. Yeah, they're breaking you down. It's
psychological torture, absolutely, like at the Yeah, but it sounds like at
least you don't leave that or at least my impression from the essays you didn't
leave that experience being like I'm saved. I don't have these feelings anymore.
Like you knew you have these feelings. Oh yeah, you didn't think that
they were somehow your presence of mind, like you knew they weren't, they
weren't evil. You just knew you had them, and so you told them
what they wanted to hear, and that gets the experience to stop. Do
you feel like that got your mom off the off the trail? Was that
like enough for her or was she still did you still have to constantly make
sure that she wasn't gonna, you know, try something equally bad or even
worse to Yeah, that's an interesting question. I mean, I don't think
at that age I was kind of able to I knew what was happening to
me, but I don't think I was able to book out keep Foll's motivations
right like until now. I'm really not sure whether the two people that came
over believed what they were doing, or were they ill, or was it
just a pair of nasty people who, like I don't know that type of
fun you never know, right, And I think maybe I would be able
to have a better sense of that now as an adult, but I don't
know. And I also don't know what my mom was thinking, because nothing
like that, apart from just you know, in general homophobic retric nothing like
that ever happened again. And I can't tell whether because it's because she thought
that, oh, we're good, job, we're done, or whether she
kind of sensed that something about that day made I think something about I think
she knew something about that day made it such that I would not take that
the second time. Okay, yeah, because our relationship like completely broke down
after that, it was like fairly like monosyllabic, and I don't think I
think maybe a lot of it was she did not know what to expect from
me if we were to do that again, and I don't think she wanted
to find out risk. Yeah good, Yeah, But I mean you're so,
you're twelve, You're stuck in that home for years past that point,
I mean there's nothing, yeah, and you're still obviously having these feelings and
probably understanding them more. And so what how did you sort of, I
don't know, I hide that or were you still able to sort of explore
that when you were outside of the home, like at school. I know
there were experiences that are actually really sweet that you mentioned in the essays,
But like, yeah, how are you sort of balancing these two worlds?
Yeah, that's a that's a really interesting question, that's really context specific that
I think about more and more as I get older. So I was in
a so called all girls secondary school, which is high school, and it
was a convent school in the sense that it was a Catholic school, not
not. I don't think. I don't know whether convent school has the same
kind of meaning here. But we only had one nun and she was the
principal. It wasn't everyone wasn't walking around with rulers, you know. Okay,
I know that's just the North American stereotype. But it was school.
You're in a Catholic school, Okay, okay. So it was strict in
the sense that it was strict in the sense that it was it was just
part of the Singapore and school system, not specifically because it was a so
called all girls or Catholic schools. So I think the interesting thing about that
experience, coming from home, going from home to school and school to back
is that I think because I had just the good luck of having friends,
most of whom were not horrible. Like my best friend when I was twelve
is she's my best friend. Now. I've lost a lot of other friends
from high school along the way, but she's been a staple in my life
and that has been great. Hi, Mikela. Anyway, it was really
interesting because queer relationships between the girls and my school were pretty open. Oh
wow, Okay. Yeah, So even though like obviously it was not allowed
and there were consequences when teachers were not there, a lot of these relationships
were visible. So actually going from home to school was like leaving a horrible
place and coming to like a kind of bubble almost. I mean, I'm
sure everyone's experiences, even in that same year and that same school, you
know, different, but this was my life was like but for you,
like it's I mean yeah, yeah, yeah. So I knew a lot
of goals teenage girls who were dating other goals. So there was something about
that that was like, oh, this looks like it's fine, it's so
great. Yeah, So that was because that happening for you at all?
Or was that like way too much of a risk to even think about,
like actually it? I think I don't think I was ever I don't think
I ever thought that there was something wrong with me. But I think I
always knew that that was not how things work, right, So those were
my main concerns. Okay, But I think I felt safe enough in school
to when I was thirteen and fourteen kind of be really open about people I
liked when talking to when talking to my friends, right, And the first
time I actually started dating someone was when I was sixteen. Does that's like
earlier for a lot of people. That's incredible, that's really lovely. Yeah,
that I think at that point. I think at that point, you
know, being being so in love and kind of understanding that, yeah,
this is a thing that's not going away. Because I think for a lot
of my early teenhood, a lot of the narrative because on some level,
teachers knew this was happening. So a lot of the narrative, they the
softer narratives. They tried to push, well, it's okay that you like
you know who you like, but it's not don't do anything because it's a
phase. Yeah, you're going to go girls school week, get it,
but don't don't do something you'll regret late in life. And I was of
the attitude that I'm open to that possibility as well, maybe this is temporary.
It doesn't really matter to me who I like and how long you know
what I know, because you're not thinking that far ahead. But anyway,
it's like, so yeah, So when that happened, I realized, Okay,
that narrative is out, that narratives off the table. Okay. Yeah.
I think it's also it can be confusing as as someone who's female identified
and realizing you're queer, because I think because folks who are raised female,
we do tend to get that narrative a little bit so or a lot bit.
So I think that it is true that for some girls that is I
don't want to use the word phase, but that is just like something that
they do and it's like it feels great, but ultimately that's not the direction
in their lives. Yeah, gonna go, And so like it's so confusing
to realize, or at least it was for me. It's confusing to realize
like, oh wait, we're kind of maybe having the same feelings and experiences,
but mine are like I'm in it for the marathon and they're just in
it for the sprints. You have to realize like, oh I, my
thing is different. I'm going to keep doing this in perpetuity and they're just
like doing it because this is where they are right now and it feels there's
nothing wrong with them. And yeah, and that I think that can be
confusing for women. Ye. Yeah, So I like that you realized it
sounds like kind of early on that this was a longevity situation for you.
Yeah, yeah, ok, yeah, And was your focus on just like
getting out of your home as soon as you were sort of able to do
that, whether it was university or getting a job and being financially it like
where were you at and trying to not be trapped in the situation you were
in. Yeah, that's yeah, that's a good question. That's another question
that's really kind of time and context specific, because I don't think I may
be wrong, but I don't think it's so much like this now. But
definitely then it was pretty culturally speaking in Singapore, a lot of people I
would say, I would venture to say most people live in their parents home
till they're married. Whoah, gosh, okay. And it's not just a
cultural thing. The specificity of public housing, which is most of the housing
in Singapore, is created that way as well. So for example, I'm
just gonna say, I don't know the actual stat but I'm going to venture
to say it's seventy or eighty maybe eighty percent of housing is public government housing,
which is not cheap but cheaper than private housing. So that's where most
people stay. And when I was growing up, renting is not as much
of the culture as it is buying a government home. So even though the
rules around buying public housing again are centered around getting married and having children,
so you can't as a single person you don't have access to public housing until
you're thirty five. Oh my gosh, So you can only access public housing
if you're married, like opposite so called opposite sex, are straight married,
Yeah exactly, Yeah yeah, or you wait till you're thirty five, or
if you want to rent a lot of the times unless you can find a
band of like outcasts, A lot of the time was too expensive. And
even even renting public housing because it's structured for families, or most public housing
that you can access to rent start at two bedroom apartments, So studio apartments
one bedroom apartments, which are really common in this area, are not a
thing there if you're renting a studio, in effect trapped for essentially decades.
Yeah yeah, And I look, I bitch about America a lot and will
continue to do so because we are not a great country. Sorry, but
this is a real This is really eye opening for my As I said before,
my incredible privilege that in my brain, I'm just like, so,
how do you get out? It's seventeen Even that in and of itself is
is a huge privilege, and I need to check myself on that. Okay,
So so then I guess, same question, what was how did you
what was your sort of a lot of plan is the right world? How
did you? Oh? God, yeah, so I just I guess I
just waited until I so after basically after high school, I went to junior
college, which is a two year thing that's supposed to bridge you to university.
Sure that's a simplification, but it's the easiest way to say that.
So I went to junior college. I dropped out after a year, and
I went to art school. And I think once that was done so to
us. Towards the end of art school cost me to mine a good friend.
We go a studio space together that we got in exchange for teaching on
the like teaching art class as to kids, and it was in the same
building and kind of having that semi it wasn't a living space, it was
a space for art making, but just having that tiny space out where I
could like, oh, put some of my stuff, not go have a
place to not go home. I think that kind of semi leaving is really
what pushed me to be like, you know what, can't take this ship,
go to find out what to do about it. And so I ended
up, Yeah, I ended up for the next few years just like living
with honestly, to put it blunly, just living with whoever I could like
find. It was also to rent, because that was the Yeah, that
was that was the other option besides staying at home in a terrible environment.
Yeah, so that's what I did. I left. I kind of gathered
my things bit by bit and moved it out. And then one day I
just think go back, And at that point were you able for then?
Were you kind of able to to live the way you wanted to live,
whether that was like trying to to have relationships or dressing how you want or
like, did that afford you a lot more freedom or were you still sort
of trying to be cautious about how you move visibly at least through through the
whole. Oh yeah, no, I was not. I was in a
relationship when I moved out. You were, okay, Wow? Yeah?
Was it the one? Was it the same one from sixteen or no?
No? No, no, okay, it was a different person. I'm
so impressed that you were able to have like multiple relationships still dealing with all
of the things you were dealing with and living at home, and like that's
incredible to me. Yeah, I don't know. I guess the hot on
was yeah, yeah, yeah, I forget the question. I apologize.
Oh, I forget it too. No, that's fine, I guess I
know. I was just asking. Once you uh, once you did have
your own living space, did that give you like a newfound sense of like
or it sounds like you were kind of already living mostly how you wanted even
while you were still trapped at home like you were dating and yeah, I
guess yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean I was living how I wanted
outside of the house, and then okay, living how I wanted when I
was in my mother's house. Yeah, absolutely, But yeah, moving out
was lying. I think you discovered very quickly, like I thought, like,
okay, like I have a I have a degree, now, like
I'll be able to live independently. And then you learned very very quickly,
no one cares about No one cares about your BA and painting and it's useless.
So yeah, nobody cares about my VS in theater and it's similar.
So here's where we have overs. So yeah, I mean it was several
years of living hand to mouth and some of those times, I mean,
we're really we're really tough, Like there were a couple of times I had,
like, you know, my power cut off and all that kind of
stuff. But every time, you know, there was some kind of financial
struggle. Always in my mind it was like is it this or is it
the other thing? And always this is so much better than the other thing,
the other thing being living with my mother to be clear, Yeah,
yeah, so yeah, in some sense, no, see, this was
not an ideal situation those first few years. But the answer is also yes,
I was living the way I wanted, which was a way okay.
And can I ask in Singapore because I've spoken to folks who have lived in
various countries in the Middle East where it's like really on the down low in
every sense of the word, and it's like can't have any sort of indication
and it's underground places where you can And in Singapore if you want to go
to like a queer space or something, are there those places or is it
all sort of like they okay, okay, So even though public television that's
a no, there are at least places oh yeah, you can go to
be There are a lot. It's it's a very complex situation, so there
are lots of places can go less less so in my like when I was
a teenager. But yeah, yeah, So basically the post the colonial law
three seven seven A thank you to the British. We are former British colony,
but that was so much to thank them for. Yeah. Seven A
basically criminalizes sex between sex between men, or rather more accurately, sex between
people who were considered men by the law, and that statute existed right until
the end of last year. So basically have like a man having sex with
another man was a criminal act. And for many, many years, the
compromise that was given to the queer community from up above was that we have
the law in the books as a symbol, but we won't God okay.
As trying to make basically the nature of compromises that no one is happy,
right, so yeah, no one is happy, like okay. But so
so even when this law was still on the books, i e. When
you were when you were younger and you're just moving on everything, there were
at least it sounds like, still spaces. Yes, absolutely, people could
gether. It was just like that, that's such a paradox. Exactly,
here's a space for you. But by the way, I don't actually go
home with anyone and have sex because that's a leeg like what a Yeah,
so a lot of it's it's also why it takes a lot uh kind of
explaining activism and explaining the queer situation as a really like law long conversation.
Because of this kind of complexity. There are lots of gay bars. There
is an annual starting in two thousand and nine, there was a gathering in
Hong limb Park called Pink Dot that has lasted until now. It started with,
like I think, if I'm not wrong, about two thousand people and
now it's in the ten thousands, and it's about the phrase that they use
is freedom to love. It's a very mild kind of activism, but it
has gained numbers and everybody knows about it, and it's visible and it's not
illegal. Of course, gatherings protests in Singapore allowed in one park, Hong
Limp Park, so you apply for the license and the government you know,
approves it. So there's that. But that for all these years was happening
in the same country where sex between men was a criminal act. Yeah,
this is so Yeah, I'm embarrassed at how little I know. I'm glad
you name check crazy ritations in the book because I think in your essay because
for so many Americans that is like the majority of our knowledge that like comes
from that film. So I'm glad to have you speak on all of the
in the contradictions. Yeah. No, I was happy to write about that
as well. Yeah, I bet, I bet. Yeah, So yeah,
I mean especially I don't want to. I don't want to. You
know, it's definitely not a situation like where you know, you mentioned in
their countries, but you really really really really have to hide. There's a
thriving you know, that's a thriving literature community in Singapore, and there are
a lot of queer people making writings. There are a lot of younger queer
people who run spoken with events and poetry events, and a lot of them
are queer. But again, you're in a space where, to my knowledge
again, I'm just going to say, to my knowledge, you know,
public portrayals on TV are still not alone. So it's good. That's very
you get like a whiplash with this is very confusing. I'm glad to hear
that there is a community though. Absolutely. Yeah, I'm so glad.
Could I ask in terms of because so it sounds like you were initially more
focused on visual arts. Were you always Were you always a writer? Were
you always sort of like keeping journals and writing about experiences? And at what
point did that become sort of your mode of expression or are they both still?
Do you? Do you still? Do you still paint? Like how
does that figure into into your work? And now, Yeah, that's an
interesting question. I think I've always loved language in the sense that I've always
loved to read, But in terms of like starting out, I was definitely
I definitely never thought about becoming a writer when I was a kid, and
I thought a lot about becoming an artist. And I think when I was
doing school, I did a lot of writing next to my drawing in my
sketch books. And again this is not something I realized was not usually the
case until my teacher has told me. And at some point I moved from
doing strict painting into like working with texts, like in installations and in other
kinds of art making, and that seemed to be where liked to be.
So yeah, I think that's where that's where I started writing my sketch books
essentially. Yeah, And I mean the in the book it's I mean,
it's personal essays like it's kind of the most vulnerable thing you can you can
put out there? Is that something like because I know you moved, I
didn't realize until we'd spoken how recently you had relocated to Vancouver. But is
do you feel like the book is that a result of like of like,
you know, completely moving countries and being like, oh, suddenly, like
I feel now I feel free to like write these incredibly personal, vulnerable essays
like did that almost surprise you when you were like, this is what I
want to write? Oh, yeah, that's interesting. Yes and no.
So my book Before This was also my memoir before This and The Walls Come
Crumbling Down was also personal. I think that one the chapters are interconnected in
a way that's different from this one, where they're much more separate. But
that book was essentially about me moving house and having one of the places I
stayed at had a really bad turn my infestation, and things were just kind
of breaking down around me. And at the same time I was having trouble
with the relationship and so everything was breaking down. So it's not the first
time that I've written like personal things and put it out, but definitely I
did not expect to be writing about Singapore after leaving it, And the first
thing when I wrote when I got here was I basically came in. My
school was my way of getting here. So I did an MFA and creative
writing, and the first assignment we got was to write a letter to someone.
And my mother had died that same year, So that final essay in
the book is the first thing I wrote for the book, and the first
thing I wrote when I got to Canada. And again this didn't translate at
the time to oh, this could be part of a collection. But in
a lot of my classes, I was writing about horror and I was writing
about Singapore, just because these things seemed to speak to specific assignments. And
then someone kind of pointed out I think it was in one non fiction class
where I passed. I mentioned very passingly in conversation about the Tough Club,
you know, the nationwide weight loss program. That was, oh, yes,
you mentioned I mentioned. I mentioned about how we like at one point
the goals in my school, including myself, who were forced to exercise durings,
had to do it like in a place where we were viewable from the
canteen where everyone was eating, and so I just mentioned it and I laughed
and then someone's like, hold up, yeah, and this is like a
government program. It was organized by the Ministry of Education, Okay, and
can you explain it really? So it's TAF and can you okare again heer
F stands fortune and fit. But if you see it's an acronym, it's
clearly fat backwards backwards. Yes, and this is we have this thing.
I think we still have it called the Presidential Fitness Test, which feels like
a more thinly veiled version of this. But yeah, like governments are obsessed.
I feel like with having kids be in shape in case there's a warren,
we have to start drafting kids, like we want those fit soldiers.
So that's always like the nefarious underbelly of this. But so yeah, so
it sounds like young girls were forced to like basically do calisthenics and people eating
can watch them. Is that I don't know about calisthenics. I don't actually
know about it, but it might be exaggerated. But yeah, you're doing
aerobic Yeah, this was not a relegated to girls. It was it was
it was kids. It's a primary school and high school. Like anyone who
was in a government school essentially a school that was partially awfully funded by Okay,
so this is like what we have in America. I swear to God,
every country has their version of interesting get in shape kids. Yeah.
Wow, Okay. So someone so someone pointed that out essentially and said,
this sounds like that specific action of where we were exercising. She said,
oh, this feels like it's very petty, and then she kind of couldn't
let it go. And then I was like, Oh, this is something
I've normalized that seems interesting to all the people. Yeah. So I think
a lot of my a lot of school was just exploring like what it is
I've come to think of as just ship that happened and realizing oh no,
this is not this is okay. So that's how that's That's a little bit
about how the book came about. Okay. And I love the the horror
elements and the movies that you talk about, because there is such a link
between queerness and horror film, like the fandoms overlap, like queer people love
horror movies. I will shout out former guest bj Colangelo who writes about horror
and like, just I think the symbolism and a lot of horror movies queer
people really relate to. But yeah, I just really like how you talk
about Carrie and uh there and a number of other movies. But just yeah,
that that horror element feels like a lot of queer people resonate with it,
like feeling like you're the out and sympathizing with like the quote unquote monster,
the title of the book and all of that. Like, yeah,
I just really like how you thank you and yeah, do you want to
talk like have you always been a horror fed or what? How did that
sort of how did that work its way into your into your life into the
book? Yeah? Have I always been a horror fan? That's I mean,
I grew up. I mean my mother read me revelations, you know
what I mean. That's the ultimate horror. Yeah, that's like so much
scarier than like The Ring exactly. You're going to essentially, you do one
wrong thing and you the world and you haven't asked for forgiveness because your timing
is shitty. You're just going to but in hell for Tennessee. And again,
I'm not like one of the ones. I'm not saying obviously that all
religion tells you this it's just what my mother total experience. Yeah, I
wonder if horror for queer people. I mean it is. I just spoke
about this, but it's like a way of kind of reclaiming it and making
it less threatening and more like fun and like spooky and like having ownership over
being exposed to like this kind of stuff. Yeah, I can totally.
I can totally. I mean, how are you a horr fan? Do
you? I? Here's my thing. I am such a whoss And I
feel left out of so much of the conversation because so many queer people love
horror and I'm so scared. But I have seen Carrie and you got to
see carry It as a classic. I have seen The Ring. The Ring
is probably the scariest movie I've ever Like, that's my bar. I never
want to see anything that scary ever again. But yeah, it's hard for
me to see horror, and I feel like I miss out on a lot
of cool queer stuff because there is a lot of cool queer horror and I'm
like, I can't do it. Okay, a nightmare, Yeah, it
is a very It is a very I'm not saying that you're on the polar
end, but it's a very polarizing genre, I think, and I think
it's really interesting that people people who do love horror come come to it for
really varying reasons. Like you said, like I know a lot of queer
people who love horror, a lot of people who like to like watch it
and you know, analyze it and think about it. And I love doing
that as well. Then you come you know, there are also people who
absolute horror friends who google there for the blood and go, Yeah, but
it's but horror. Some horror movies are like incredibly progressive and like a lot
of horror movies we're sort of doing messaging and stuff years before that became more
mainstreams. So like it is that's why I feel bad. I'm like,
that's so scary. But I know there's like really there is, like fundamentally
horror. Horror has been an important genre like politically and socially, and it's
just like, yeah, it's it's really interesting. Yeah, And I think
there's just such an intrinsic link between like queer people and horror. And I
love that. That's I love that that's a thing and I try to partake
in it as much as I can handle. I know if you're looking for
a gateway, I highly recommend horror documentaries. Okay, yeah, maybe that
would put it more and like I'd have a little distance. Then we'll have
some spoilers, like some shock spoilers like already process like you've seen already.
Yeah, and of course if you like Carra for like the intellectual things,
that's the most easiest way to get into it, right watching someone talk about
Bara, Yeah, definitely the book really is. I really really enjoyed what
I read and just yeah, I yeah, so okay, So so wrapping
up, where can people I know, pre orders are important, so the
book is coming out again February sixth, but where can people pre order it?
Where can they find it online? What stores should they go to?
Uh? And also if you personally would like to be found on social media,
where can people find you? So yeah, all the things. Yeah,
So I think my most public social media in terms of why I post
the most information about the book is my Instagram and you can probably Unfortunately,
Tiny de Rosario was taken, so it's like Tany de Risa with a bunch
of full stops and underschools. I have an underscore in mine. I feel
you it's so frustrating. Yeah, so if you type yeah, I'll put
your handle in the show notes as well. Thank you. I'm also on
Twitter and Facebook. Oh. My Twitter handle is Tawny d Rosario. That's
easy to find if you go to if you're looking for the book, if
you go to my Instagram, my link tree will have where you can buy
it depending on where you are. But I always encourage you to go to
your local bookstores. Yes, yes, as do I yes, yes,
yes, excellent, okay, And I am at Lauren Flans on Twitter and
Blue Sky, and then I had the same experience on Instagram, So I
am Lauren Underscore Flans on Instagram because someone got Lauren Flans and it's not their
real name. They stole it out from under me before I was on Instagram,
so shame on you. If you're listening, the podcast is at Coming
Out Pod everywhere. That hashtag is hashtag coming out Pod. I would like
to shout out my incredible patrons, Carmel, Kaz Simone, Kayad, Michelle
el Adri, Tanya spelled the same way. We have a patron named Tanya,
same spelling. Very exciting. Pooh Kien Smiley, Aaron Mitchell, Diego
Hernandez and beyond Clexa dot com and as always, you hear me say it
every week. A great way to support the podcast for free is if you
want to go and give it five stars. A five star rating on either
iTunes, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify is a great way to help the podcast
for free. Tanya, it was so great to speak to you. I
really enjoyed your book. I'm excited for it to come out and for you
to be celebrated accordingly. Yeah, thank you for speaking to me. Thank
you so much for having me. It was so great to be here.
I really appreciate the time of the space seek. Oh my God, say
thank you. All Right, y'all, I will talk to you next week. Bye.