WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.080 --> 00:00:11.039 Hey, everybody, Welcome to Coming Out Pod, y'all. I have my 2 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:16.480 first queer root shout out that was submitted by a listener. Every week I'm 3 00:00:16.519 --> 00:00:19.640 like, hey, hit me up with your personal queer roots, so I 4 00:00:19.679 --> 00:00:23.600 really do mean it. You could message me on Twitter or Instagram or email 5 00:00:23.719 --> 00:00:27.719 Coming Out Pot at gmail dot com. But so this week from a listener, 6 00:00:27.839 --> 00:00:33.159 shout out to you. If your queer root is Kate Jackson. If 7 00:00:33.159 --> 00:00:37.679 that name sounds like vaguely familiar but you can't really place it, Kate Jackson 8 00:00:37.759 --> 00:00:43.759 is probably the probably the least famous of the three Charlie's Angels, but I 9 00:00:43.880 --> 00:00:48.479 have on good authority that she was the quote lesbian magnet of the Charlie's Angels. 10 00:00:48.679 --> 00:00:53.000 This listener has also informed me that she was in a nineteen seventies show 11 00:00:53.320 --> 00:00:57.520 called The Rookies, which I don't know of it, but it sounds very 12 00:00:57.560 --> 00:01:03.840 gay. And here's a fact. The girl, an upperclassman who I had 13 00:01:03.880 --> 00:01:07.480 a huge crush on in college, went on to play Kate Jackson in the 14 00:01:07.480 --> 00:01:11.120 made for TV Charlie's Angel movie. So it all comes full circle. We're 15 00:01:11.159 --> 00:01:18.519 all connected in one big queer root shuffle. Thank you to the listener who 16 00:01:18.599 --> 00:01:25.400 submitted Kate Jackson as their queer root. Y'all, I am here today with 17 00:01:25.519 --> 00:01:33.159 writer Tanya Dear Rosario. So Tanya's memoir, which is really it's a collection 18 00:01:33.200 --> 00:01:36.760 of essays. It's called Dinner on Monster Island, and it's going to be 19 00:01:36.760 --> 00:01:40.799 coming out on February sixth, very shortly. We are going to talk about 20 00:01:40.879 --> 00:01:46.000 that. It's really it's a beautiful well, we'll talk about it. We'll 21 00:01:46.040 --> 00:01:49.599 get to it. But there are horror elements that are spoken about in the 22 00:01:49.640 --> 00:01:57.200 book and a lot a lot of personal storytelling. It is essentially I mean, 23 00:01:57.239 --> 00:02:01.640 you get you really get Tanya's coming out story over the course of the 24 00:02:01.799 --> 00:02:06.640 essays. But we're gonna we're gonna talk about that. We're gonna talk more 25 00:02:06.680 --> 00:02:12.520 explicitly about Tandy's coming out journey. But Tanya, before we get into all 26 00:02:12.599 --> 00:02:17.120 of that, first and foremost for the listeners, how do you identify? 27 00:02:19.240 --> 00:02:23.599 I identify as queer? Beautiful? Yeah, I love it. Let's leave 28 00:02:23.639 --> 00:02:25.680 it at that. Let's leave to that and get into the nitty gritty when 29 00:02:25.680 --> 00:02:32.599 we're talking about your story and your upbringing. Let's just sort of launch right 30 00:02:32.680 --> 00:02:38.479 into it. Yeah. I think I'm not one hundred percent sure, but 31 00:02:38.560 --> 00:02:45.199 I believe you are my first guests born and raised in Singapore, So yeah, 32 00:02:45.240 --> 00:02:50.240 i'd really love to I'd love to hear where everything began for you in 33 00:02:50.319 --> 00:02:57.479 terms of in terms of your coming out story. Yeah, thank you for 34 00:02:57.520 --> 00:03:01.960 having me be the first Suporion on your firstly glad to be here. So 35 00:03:02.599 --> 00:03:07.439 yes, I was born and raised in Singapore. I spent most of my 36 00:03:07.800 --> 00:03:16.039 adult life there. I got here five years ago. And in terms of 37 00:03:19.360 --> 00:03:23.919 queerness, where that began, I don't know. That's a really hard thing 38 00:03:24.039 --> 00:03:30.840 too. That's a really hard thing to kind of ascertain, right, because 39 00:03:32.639 --> 00:03:37.360 I think there's that period of time where you kind of know in your body, 40 00:03:37.400 --> 00:03:39.719 you understand in your body that something is happening, but you don't necessarily 41 00:03:39.719 --> 00:03:51.240 have language for it. And if we're talking about when I knew I was 42 00:03:51.439 --> 00:03:58.280 queer but didn't necessarily have words for it, I think that was definitely when 43 00:03:58.319 --> 00:04:01.719 I was a kid, I think from a young as eight or nine and 44 00:04:01.759 --> 00:04:10.159 liking goals and not really understanding that that was what was happening. And I 45 00:04:10.199 --> 00:04:17.839 think what was in terms of having language for these experiences and coming out, 46 00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:25.279 I think, you know, I grew up in a place where positive representations 47 00:04:25.279 --> 00:04:29.920 of queer people were illegal on public television. This was in the eighties. 48 00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:33.680 But so yes, what I'm trying to say by this is I knew I 49 00:04:33.720 --> 00:04:39.399 liked girls. I had no language for it. And my first learning is 50 00:04:39.439 --> 00:04:48.360 about homosexuality were not from media and not from pop culture. They basically were 51 00:04:48.399 --> 00:04:58.920 from my mother, who was extremely religious and so queer people or if i'm 52 00:04:59.079 --> 00:05:06.360 if I'm more through to the time in which has happened, homosexuals were presented 53 00:05:06.360 --> 00:05:13.920 to me a sinners. So that was my first, my first understanding of 54 00:05:13.920 --> 00:05:18.120 what queerness was. And this started when my mother started becoming more vocal about 55 00:05:18.160 --> 00:05:24.319 this when I was around eleven or twelve, likely because I had started dressing 56 00:05:24.319 --> 00:05:28.360 at the time more like like a boy. For listeners, I said that 57 00:05:28.399 --> 00:05:33.120 in air quotes because gender and clothing is a fask yeah, no, thank 58 00:05:33.160 --> 00:05:43.839 you? Yeah, so yeah. I like I think coming out is a 59 00:05:43.959 --> 00:05:55.839 really kind of amorphous concept in many contexts. I don't think it's ever or 60 00:05:55.839 --> 00:05:58.800 maybe for some people it is. I don't think it's ever as clean and 61 00:05:58.920 --> 00:06:03.600 linear as it is presented in a lot of media. That's why I have 62 00:06:03.639 --> 00:06:11.480 a whole podcast about it. Yeah, the same story. I know. 63 00:06:13.279 --> 00:06:17.920 Yeah, so yeah, So I guess the interesting thing was that I learned 64 00:06:17.959 --> 00:06:24.360 about I learned about quinness by learning about what I was not supposed to be, 65 00:06:24.519 --> 00:06:33.920 essentially, and I did not come out as much as I guess I 66 00:06:34.160 --> 00:06:40.959 was yanked out and shown. Sorry, I feel like I dumped ahead for 67 00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:44.839 context. I was gay exercise when I was twelve, so that was kind 68 00:06:44.839 --> 00:06:49.480 of that is what gave me language. Who yeah, and that's kind of 69 00:06:49.560 --> 00:06:58.600 what kicks off the book of essays that experience, which is and I just 70 00:06:58.759 --> 00:07:01.920 I we spoke a little off Mike, or I acknowledge my what I call 71 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:09.399 my American privilege, which is not we obviously, as you know, we 72 00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:15.079 have plenty of homophobia transphobia in America. However, what you're I just want 73 00:07:15.120 --> 00:07:20.120 to like drive home the fact that these things, showing these things on public 74 00:07:20.160 --> 00:07:28.600 television is literally illegal in Singapore, and that is something that we can't not 75 00:07:29.120 --> 00:07:31.480 in America. And you're in Canada, so I should I should stress that, 76 00:07:31.759 --> 00:07:35.680 not not to say that now you're in America. But yeah, that's 77 00:07:35.720 --> 00:07:41.800 just something that I can have an intellectual understanding of, but I can't. 78 00:07:42.000 --> 00:07:46.759 I cannot really understand the fear that must come with the kind of the dawning 79 00:07:46.839 --> 00:07:51.639 realization that not only am I quote unquote different, but I am the kind 80 00:07:51.639 --> 00:07:58.120 of different that is illegal to show in my country like that just lack of 81 00:07:58.240 --> 00:08:03.920 safety must feel so terrifying. Yeah, I mean, I just want to 82 00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:11.480 emphasize for nuance and accuracy, this issue of this lack of representation was very 83 00:08:11.560 --> 00:08:16.600 much something that was time based too. When I grew up with people who 84 00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:20.480 at the time that you were growing up, we don't yeah, and the 85 00:08:20.519 --> 00:08:28.920 same we didn't have Netflix. So it's just like God, okay. And 86 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:35.440 so in terms of are you comfortable talking about the the exorcism experience at the 87 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:41.039 age of twelve, it's obviously it's so beautifully detailed in your in your essay, 88 00:08:41.159 --> 00:08:48.559 But yeah, is at that point did your mom? Was it that 89 00:08:48.639 --> 00:08:52.720 she suspected this about you? Was it that she had found proof? Like 90 00:08:52.919 --> 00:08:56.159 what, this is kind of an extreme thing to make your daughter go through? 91 00:08:56.240 --> 00:09:05.240 So what was her uh, what Prody's to happen? It was a 92 00:09:05.279 --> 00:09:15.639 really specific and strange and weird kind of set of circumstances because I don't think 93 00:09:16.200 --> 00:09:20.080 she planned it. So what okay, what happened? From my pov of. 94 00:09:20.919 --> 00:09:26.559 I came home from school and my mother was waiting at the bus stop, 95 00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:35.600 and she was clearly very emotional about something. And then when I asked 96 00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:37.360 her what was wrong, because she was kind of crying. When I asked 97 00:09:37.360 --> 00:09:43.720 her what had happened, she said, Oh, your grandmother has been saved. 98 00:09:45.879 --> 00:09:54.159 And I already knew that this meant my grandmother converted from Catholicism to evangelical 99 00:09:54.639 --> 00:09:58.360 Christianity. And to me that was kind of a shock because my grandmother was 100 00:09:58.399 --> 00:10:05.000 a very devout Catholic, and that suggested to me that something weird was going 101 00:10:05.000 --> 00:10:07.200 on in my house. I didn't have language for it, but I felt 102 00:10:07.200 --> 00:10:15.240 fear essentially. And this is your is your grandmother, your mom's my mother's 103 00:10:15.320 --> 00:10:20.480 mother. Okay, so she had been your mother had been raised devout Catholic, 104 00:10:20.519 --> 00:10:26.159 and your mother had previously gotten converted to even Gelicalism, and at this 105 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:31.960 point managed to also convince her mother your grandmother too. Yeah, okay, 106 00:10:31.919 --> 00:10:35.399 yeah, So I lived with my mother and my mother and her parents for 107 00:10:35.559 --> 00:10:46.080 contexts. And what had happened was two people from my mother's church had come 108 00:10:46.120 --> 00:10:50.919 by. They were friends, my mom's friends, and they said that God 109 00:10:50.039 --> 00:10:58.480 had told them to come over to our apartment because they wanted to speak to 110 00:10:58.600 --> 00:11:03.120 my grandmother, who was recently grieving the loss of someone close to her. 111 00:11:05.120 --> 00:11:13.879 And I guess somehow it's that grief they managed. I mean, this is 112 00:11:13.919 --> 00:11:20.639 what happens, right, A lot of people convert to different religions or join 113 00:11:20.759 --> 00:11:26.080 different groups when they are in spaces of vulnerability. And yeah, so that's 114 00:11:26.120 --> 00:11:33.600 what happened. And I honestly think that my coming home during that period of 115 00:11:33.639 --> 00:11:39.039 time was just in some sense bad luck. Like I don't think I don't 116 00:11:39.080 --> 00:11:43.480 think they were there for me. I don't think my mother called to my 117 00:11:43.639 --> 00:11:48.919 knowledge, I don't think my mother called them for me. It was just 118 00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:54.000 kind of opportunistic and so she didn't arrange it, but she let it happen. 119 00:11:54.840 --> 00:11:58.399 Yeah, since you drop by, can you exercise pre daughter? Is 120 00:11:58.440 --> 00:12:01.559 that? And they're like, yeah, we got half an hour? Why 121 00:12:01.600 --> 00:12:05.279 not? Like exactly would you like to upsize? Would you like to upsize 122 00:12:05.320 --> 00:12:11.080 this position? Yeah, they supersized the experience. They upsell then exorcism. 123 00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:15.320 Jesus, I don't mean to joke about this. It's it's okay. I 124 00:12:15.320 --> 00:12:20.200 mean that this happened here and at twelve. This is what so you knew 125 00:12:20.639 --> 00:12:26.840 you liked girls, you maybe didn't have the language like you're talking about gender. 126 00:12:26.120 --> 00:12:30.519 Was that you have a bit of part in the book where you talk 127 00:12:30.559 --> 00:12:33.600 about trying on your grandfather's pants, like were these things going on as well? 128 00:12:33.759 --> 00:12:39.039 So you knew you knew there was stuff, even if you didn't have 129 00:12:39.159 --> 00:12:43.120 the words for it. So yeah, I guess it's uh. I think 130 00:12:43.360 --> 00:12:50.600 you can dress how you know, you dress however you want. You you 131 00:12:50.639 --> 00:12:54.519 go about your day doing whatever you want. It's when somebody points it out 132 00:12:56.440 --> 00:13:03.480 mm hmmm that your mates who realize this is not behave I think that's that's 133 00:13:03.600 --> 00:13:07.600 essentially what difference is in what passing is right, how you pass through the 134 00:13:07.639 --> 00:13:15.519 world without without punishment or with how with whatever amount of ease or whatever amount 135 00:13:15.559 --> 00:13:22.679 of not having to think about these things. So it's a yeah, So 136 00:13:22.720 --> 00:13:28.720 it's not that I knew something was going on until it would be pointed out 137 00:13:28.759 --> 00:13:35.240 to me. Yeah. I definitely had similar experiences when I was younger, 138 00:13:35.279 --> 00:13:39.320 where it's like you're just you're just doing your thing, and then suddenly an 139 00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:43.519 adult gets like very stern about it, and that's when you have the awareness 140 00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:48.000 and it's like, oh yeah, I'm doing something quote unquote wrong. Yeah, 141 00:13:48.080 --> 00:13:50.840 I didn't know that until I got yelled at, like what exactly? 142 00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:58.240 Yeah, okay, okay, So so you go into your home. These 143 00:13:58.279 --> 00:14:05.080 two people are there. They've just gotten your grandmother, so they're feeling pretty 144 00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:07.799 they're on a high, and they're like, let's try to roll it over. 145 00:14:09.679 --> 00:14:13.000 Yep, feeling pretty generous with their time and very skilled, right, 146 00:14:13.159 --> 00:14:20.720 yes, okay, okay, So yeah, do you want to talk at 147 00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:26.679 all about what that experience was? Like I think you say it was like 148 00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:31.320 a seven hour or something ordeal and the Yeah, it's like I have a 149 00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:39.360 lot of it was a lot of repetition. Honestly, it was a lot 150 00:14:39.399 --> 00:14:50.360 of yelling and yell and splice to it remind us that they were not yelling 151 00:14:50.399 --> 00:14:54.240 at me, but they were yelling at what was inside of me, which 152 00:14:54.360 --> 00:15:00.120 was red and confusing honestly, all right, because that's I mean, I 153 00:15:00.159 --> 00:15:05.440 don't know if anyone's ever spoken on this podcast about like an actual exorcism, 154 00:15:05.480 --> 00:15:09.519 but the I mean that's basically saying, like everything that we're doing right now 155 00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:16.120 that is awful is not It's not you, it's the demon inside of you. 156 00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:20.759 So it's literally sort of like it's giving them free license to do whatever 157 00:15:20.799 --> 00:15:28.360 they want because there's a demon inside you, right right? I mean I 158 00:15:28.399 --> 00:15:33.600 also I feel like I also have to say, like exorcism is my word 159 00:15:33.639 --> 00:15:37.360 for it, because I think that's the wood that's understood by people. Like 160 00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:39.480 I'm not sure that this is a word that they would have used. Like 161 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:45.039 the language that was using on this was costing out. Okay, sure, 162 00:15:45.159 --> 00:15:50.840 yeah, they and gentrified the concept. Let's make it sound more palatable. 163 00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:58.240 That's interesting because I don't I don't necessarily think the church I went to I 164 00:15:58.360 --> 00:16:04.639 did that as a practice, a tradition of so called exossor and these people 165 00:16:06.559 --> 00:16:10.240 were not sent by the church. They were just from our church, right, 166 00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:18.159 improvising, Yeah, improvising freestyling. Yeah. So there was a lot 167 00:16:18.159 --> 00:16:30.360 of yelling, a lot of religious talk. At one point. This sounds 168 00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:34.399 wild, So I always try to find, uh, find a way to 169 00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:38.039 ease into it, but there isn't a way. So they took everything in 170 00:16:38.159 --> 00:16:45.440 my room that had a face, so like that be photographs or posters or 171 00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:52.039 like plushies, and some of them they threw away. A lot of them 172 00:16:52.080 --> 00:16:56.919 they burnt over the stove. Because we're not supposed to. They said, 173 00:16:56.960 --> 00:17:02.320 we're not supposed to have it images of faces surrounding us as a form of 174 00:17:02.440 --> 00:17:12.119 idolatry. Yeah, that was also kind of confusing. Yeah, I don't 175 00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:21.960 I don't know if there's much more detail in terms of different things happening besides 176 00:17:22.039 --> 00:17:23.480 that. A lot of the time they were trying to get me to throw 177 00:17:23.559 --> 00:17:30.759 up in a bucket because apparently that's a sign, that's a sign that the 178 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:36.240 demon has left. Great, I got rid of a lot of demons in 179 00:17:36.279 --> 00:17:45.920 college. I drank them purchase yep, yep, yep, yep. Did 180 00:17:45.960 --> 00:17:52.160 it seem like, so after this casting out is over, did you did 181 00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:59.160 it feel like your mom was like like problem solved? Like did because you 182 00:17:59.240 --> 00:18:02.759 mentioned in the book that or in the essay that at some point you just 183 00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:07.920 sort of you realize that you have to capitulate in order to make it end. 184 00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:10.400 So you say, like, yes, I acknowledge I'm a sinner. 185 00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:12.640 But then in your head you're saying, but I don't think there's anything wrong 186 00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:17.160 with that. So you're doing the smart thing, which, for the record, 187 00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:22.480 this podcast always tells people like always play it safe, prioritize your safety 188 00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:27.920 both physically and emotionally rather than your truth. Your truth lives inside you and 189 00:18:27.960 --> 00:18:33.240 will always be there if it's a matter of safety. Lie as much as 190 00:18:33.279 --> 00:18:37.279 you have to bend that truth, we want you safe. So so you're 191 00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:41.680 smart enough at twelve to know I have to say what they want me to 192 00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:45.160 say to get this to stop. Yeah, I don't know which is. 193 00:18:45.759 --> 00:18:51.720 I don't know whether it's about being smart as whether it was just like I 194 00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:56.160 am so exhausted, go away. Yeah, they're breaking you down. It's 195 00:18:56.200 --> 00:19:02.519 psychological torture, absolutely, like at the Yeah, but it sounds like at 196 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:07.480 least you don't leave that or at least my impression from the essays you didn't 197 00:19:07.559 --> 00:19:11.880 leave that experience being like I'm saved. I don't have these feelings anymore. 198 00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:15.079 Like you knew you have these feelings. Oh yeah, you didn't think that 199 00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:18.880 they were somehow your presence of mind, like you knew they weren't, they 200 00:19:18.920 --> 00:19:22.519 weren't evil. You just knew you had them, and so you told them 201 00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:29.519 what they wanted to hear, and that gets the experience to stop. Do 202 00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:33.039 you feel like that got your mom off the off the trail? Was that 203 00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:40.039 like enough for her or was she still did you still have to constantly make 204 00:19:40.079 --> 00:19:45.440 sure that she wasn't gonna, you know, try something equally bad or even 205 00:19:45.519 --> 00:19:51.200 worse to Yeah, that's an interesting question. I mean, I don't think 206 00:19:51.359 --> 00:19:53.839 at that age I was kind of able to I knew what was happening to 207 00:19:53.880 --> 00:20:00.519 me, but I don't think I was able to book out keep Foll's motivations 208 00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:07.480 right like until now. I'm really not sure whether the two people that came 209 00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:15.720 over believed what they were doing, or were they ill, or was it 210 00:20:21.279 --> 00:20:23.880 just a pair of nasty people who, like I don't know that type of 211 00:20:23.960 --> 00:20:27.599 fun you never know, right, And I think maybe I would be able 212 00:20:27.640 --> 00:20:30.359 to have a better sense of that now as an adult, but I don't 213 00:20:30.359 --> 00:20:37.079 know. And I also don't know what my mom was thinking, because nothing 214 00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:42.240 like that, apart from just you know, in general homophobic retric nothing like 215 00:20:42.279 --> 00:20:47.519 that ever happened again. And I can't tell whether because it's because she thought 216 00:20:47.559 --> 00:20:49.559 that, oh, we're good, job, we're done, or whether she 217 00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:56.799 kind of sensed that something about that day made I think something about I think 218 00:20:56.839 --> 00:20:59.960 she knew something about that day made it such that I would not take that 219 00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:04.160 the second time. Okay, yeah, because our relationship like completely broke down 220 00:21:04.160 --> 00:21:11.960 after that, it was like fairly like monosyllabic, and I don't think I 221 00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:21.960 think maybe a lot of it was she did not know what to expect from 222 00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:26.000 me if we were to do that again, and I don't think she wanted 223 00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:33.319 to find out risk. Yeah good, Yeah, But I mean you're so, 224 00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:38.559 you're twelve, You're stuck in that home for years past that point, 225 00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:45.640 I mean there's nothing, yeah, and you're still obviously having these feelings and 226 00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:52.119 probably understanding them more. And so what how did you sort of, I 227 00:21:52.119 --> 00:21:56.799 don't know, I hide that or were you still able to sort of explore 228 00:21:56.839 --> 00:21:59.440 that when you were outside of the home, like at school. I know 229 00:21:59.480 --> 00:22:03.279 there were experiences that are actually really sweet that you mentioned in the essays, 230 00:22:03.319 --> 00:22:08.599 But like, yeah, how are you sort of balancing these two worlds? 231 00:22:10.799 --> 00:22:17.480 Yeah, that's a that's a really interesting question, that's really context specific that 232 00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:22.720 I think about more and more as I get older. So I was in 233 00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:33.599 a so called all girls secondary school, which is high school, and it 234 00:22:33.720 --> 00:22:37.920 was a convent school in the sense that it was a Catholic school, not 235 00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:40.720 not. I don't think. I don't know whether convent school has the same 236 00:22:40.839 --> 00:22:44.400 kind of meaning here. But we only had one nun and she was the 237 00:22:44.440 --> 00:22:49.720 principal. It wasn't everyone wasn't walking around with rulers, you know. Okay, 238 00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:55.119 I know that's just the North American stereotype. But it was school. 239 00:22:56.400 --> 00:23:02.039 You're in a Catholic school, Okay, okay. So it was strict in 240 00:23:02.079 --> 00:23:10.000 the sense that it was strict in the sense that it was it was just 241 00:23:10.039 --> 00:23:14.720 part of the Singapore and school system, not specifically because it was a so 242 00:23:14.759 --> 00:23:22.119 called all girls or Catholic schools. So I think the interesting thing about that 243 00:23:22.200 --> 00:23:27.240 experience, coming from home, going from home to school and school to back 244 00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:37.880 is that I think because I had just the good luck of having friends, 245 00:23:37.960 --> 00:23:41.799 most of whom were not horrible. Like my best friend when I was twelve 246 00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:45.400 is she's my best friend. Now. I've lost a lot of other friends 247 00:23:45.880 --> 00:23:48.359 from high school along the way, but she's been a staple in my life 248 00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:55.279 and that has been great. Hi, Mikela. Anyway, it was really 249 00:23:55.319 --> 00:24:03.279 interesting because queer relationships between the girls and my school were pretty open. Oh 250 00:24:03.319 --> 00:24:08.119 wow, Okay. Yeah, So even though like obviously it was not allowed 251 00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:17.039 and there were consequences when teachers were not there, a lot of these relationships 252 00:24:17.079 --> 00:24:22.480 were visible. So actually going from home to school was like leaving a horrible 253 00:24:22.519 --> 00:24:25.680 place and coming to like a kind of bubble almost. I mean, I'm 254 00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:30.440 sure everyone's experiences, even in that same year and that same school, you 255 00:24:30.440 --> 00:24:33.000 know, different, but this was my life was like but for you, 256 00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:40.400 like it's I mean yeah, yeah, yeah. So I knew a lot 257 00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:47.279 of goals teenage girls who were dating other goals. So there was something about 258 00:24:47.319 --> 00:24:52.720 that that was like, oh, this looks like it's fine, it's so 259 00:24:52.920 --> 00:25:00.960 great. Yeah, So that was because that happening for you at all? 260 00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:04.160 Or was that like way too much of a risk to even think about, 261 00:25:04.200 --> 00:25:18.759 like actually it? I think I don't think I was ever I don't think 262 00:25:18.799 --> 00:25:22.920 I ever thought that there was something wrong with me. But I think I 263 00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:30.559 always knew that that was not how things work, right, So those were 264 00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:37.599 my main concerns. Okay, But I think I felt safe enough in school 265 00:25:37.880 --> 00:25:42.960 to when I was thirteen and fourteen kind of be really open about people I 266 00:25:44.119 --> 00:25:53.160 liked when talking to when talking to my friends, right, And the first 267 00:25:53.160 --> 00:26:02.039 time I actually started dating someone was when I was sixteen. Does that's like 268 00:26:02.240 --> 00:26:07.920 earlier for a lot of people. That's incredible, that's really lovely. Yeah, 269 00:26:07.119 --> 00:26:10.880 that I think at that point. I think at that point, you 270 00:26:10.920 --> 00:26:18.839 know, being being so in love and kind of understanding that, yeah, 271 00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:22.400 this is a thing that's not going away. Because I think for a lot 272 00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:27.720 of my early teenhood, a lot of the narrative because on some level, 273 00:26:27.880 --> 00:26:33.799 teachers knew this was happening. So a lot of the narrative, they the 274 00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:37.799 softer narratives. They tried to push, well, it's okay that you like 275 00:26:37.160 --> 00:26:41.079 you know who you like, but it's not don't do anything because it's a 276 00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:45.920 phase. Yeah, you're going to go girls school week, get it, 277 00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:52.319 but don't don't do something you'll regret late in life. And I was of 278 00:26:52.359 --> 00:26:59.119 the attitude that I'm open to that possibility as well, maybe this is temporary. 279 00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:06.640 It doesn't really matter to me who I like and how long you know 280 00:27:06.839 --> 00:27:10.480 what I know, because you're not thinking that far ahead. But anyway, 281 00:27:10.519 --> 00:27:15.200 it's like, so yeah, So when that happened, I realized, Okay, 282 00:27:15.240 --> 00:27:19.599 that narrative is out, that narratives off the table. Okay. Yeah. 283 00:27:19.880 --> 00:27:26.799 I think it's also it can be confusing as as someone who's female identified 284 00:27:26.839 --> 00:27:30.799 and realizing you're queer, because I think because folks who are raised female, 285 00:27:30.839 --> 00:27:37.279 we do tend to get that narrative a little bit so or a lot bit. 286 00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:42.960 So I think that it is true that for some girls that is I 287 00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:45.799 don't want to use the word phase, but that is just like something that 288 00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:51.519 they do and it's like it feels great, but ultimately that's not the direction 289 00:27:51.559 --> 00:27:55.000 in their lives. Yeah, gonna go, And so like it's so confusing 290 00:27:55.079 --> 00:27:57.880 to realize, or at least it was for me. It's confusing to realize 291 00:27:57.920 --> 00:28:03.440 like, oh wait, we're kind of maybe having the same feelings and experiences, 292 00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:07.559 but mine are like I'm in it for the marathon and they're just in 293 00:28:07.640 --> 00:28:12.359 it for the sprints. You have to realize like, oh I, my 294 00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:18.359 thing is different. I'm going to keep doing this in perpetuity and they're just 295 00:28:18.519 --> 00:28:21.960 like doing it because this is where they are right now and it feels there's 296 00:28:21.960 --> 00:28:23.599 nothing wrong with them. And yeah, and that I think that can be 297 00:28:23.680 --> 00:28:30.960 confusing for women. Ye. Yeah, So I like that you realized it 298 00:28:30.039 --> 00:28:37.279 sounds like kind of early on that this was a longevity situation for you. 299 00:28:38.440 --> 00:28:49.000 Yeah, yeah, ok, yeah, And was your focus on just like 300 00:28:49.279 --> 00:28:55.079 getting out of your home as soon as you were sort of able to do 301 00:28:55.160 --> 00:29:00.200 that, whether it was university or getting a job and being financially it like 302 00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:07.200 where were you at and trying to not be trapped in the situation you were 303 00:29:07.240 --> 00:29:11.839 in. Yeah, that's yeah, that's a good question. That's another question 304 00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:18.480 that's really kind of time and context specific, because I don't think I may 305 00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:22.200 be wrong, but I don't think it's so much like this now. But 306 00:29:22.359 --> 00:29:33.319 definitely then it was pretty culturally speaking in Singapore, a lot of people I 307 00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:37.799 would say, I would venture to say most people live in their parents home 308 00:29:37.839 --> 00:29:41.960 till they're married. Whoah, gosh, okay. And it's not just a 309 00:29:41.960 --> 00:29:48.680 cultural thing. The specificity of public housing, which is most of the housing 310 00:29:48.680 --> 00:29:56.400 in Singapore, is created that way as well. So for example, I'm 311 00:29:56.400 --> 00:29:59.559 just gonna say, I don't know the actual stat but I'm going to venture 312 00:30:00.279 --> 00:30:07.119 to say it's seventy or eighty maybe eighty percent of housing is public government housing, 313 00:30:07.480 --> 00:30:11.960 which is not cheap but cheaper than private housing. So that's where most 314 00:30:11.960 --> 00:30:22.160 people stay. And when I was growing up, renting is not as much 315 00:30:22.200 --> 00:30:27.559 of the culture as it is buying a government home. So even though the 316 00:30:27.680 --> 00:30:34.920 rules around buying public housing again are centered around getting married and having children, 317 00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:42.519 so you can't as a single person you don't have access to public housing until 318 00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:48.319 you're thirty five. Oh my gosh, So you can only access public housing 319 00:30:48.400 --> 00:30:55.480 if you're married, like opposite so called opposite sex, are straight married, 320 00:30:55.680 --> 00:31:00.559 Yeah exactly, Yeah yeah, or you wait till you're thirty five, or 321 00:31:00.759 --> 00:31:06.799 if you want to rent a lot of the times unless you can find a 322 00:31:06.839 --> 00:31:11.559 band of like outcasts, A lot of the time was too expensive. And 323 00:31:12.079 --> 00:31:18.599 even even renting public housing because it's structured for families, or most public housing 324 00:31:19.160 --> 00:31:27.759 that you can access to rent start at two bedroom apartments, So studio apartments 325 00:31:27.799 --> 00:31:33.960 one bedroom apartments, which are really common in this area, are not a 326 00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:40.880 thing there if you're renting a studio, in effect trapped for essentially decades. 327 00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:45.279 Yeah yeah, And I look, I bitch about America a lot and will 328 00:31:45.319 --> 00:31:51.039 continue to do so because we are not a great country. Sorry, but 329 00:31:51.200 --> 00:31:55.440 this is a real This is really eye opening for my As I said before, 330 00:31:55.599 --> 00:31:59.359 my incredible privilege that in my brain, I'm just like, so, 331 00:31:59.400 --> 00:32:02.680 how do you get out? It's seventeen Even that in and of itself is 332 00:32:02.680 --> 00:32:10.119 is a huge privilege, and I need to check myself on that. Okay, 333 00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:15.480 So so then I guess, same question, what was how did you 334 00:32:16.480 --> 00:32:22.680 what was your sort of a lot of plan is the right world? How 335 00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:27.079 did you? Oh? God, yeah, so I just I guess I 336 00:32:27.200 --> 00:32:35.759 just waited until I so after basically after high school, I went to junior 337 00:32:35.799 --> 00:32:38.599 college, which is a two year thing that's supposed to bridge you to university. 338 00:32:39.200 --> 00:32:44.119 Sure that's a simplification, but it's the easiest way to say that. 339 00:32:44.359 --> 00:32:47.799 So I went to junior college. I dropped out after a year, and 340 00:32:47.960 --> 00:32:52.400 I went to art school. And I think once that was done so to 341 00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:57.640 us. Towards the end of art school cost me to mine a good friend. 342 00:32:58.079 --> 00:33:04.920 We go a studio space together that we got in exchange for teaching on 343 00:33:05.000 --> 00:33:08.200 the like teaching art class as to kids, and it was in the same 344 00:33:08.200 --> 00:33:12.839 building and kind of having that semi it wasn't a living space, it was 345 00:33:12.880 --> 00:33:19.400 a space for art making, but just having that tiny space out where I 346 00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:23.240 could like, oh, put some of my stuff, not go have a 347 00:33:23.279 --> 00:33:31.359 place to not go home. I think that kind of semi leaving is really 348 00:33:31.640 --> 00:33:35.319 what pushed me to be like, you know what, can't take this ship, 349 00:33:35.440 --> 00:33:38.119 go to find out what to do about it. And so I ended 350 00:33:38.200 --> 00:33:43.720 up, Yeah, I ended up for the next few years just like living 351 00:33:43.720 --> 00:33:45.720 with honestly, to put it blunly, just living with whoever I could like 352 00:33:45.880 --> 00:33:53.279 find. It was also to rent, because that was the Yeah, that 353 00:33:53.359 --> 00:33:57.880 was that was the other option besides staying at home in a terrible environment. 354 00:34:00.920 --> 00:34:02.599 Yeah, so that's what I did. I left. I kind of gathered 355 00:34:02.599 --> 00:34:07.440 my things bit by bit and moved it out. And then one day I 356 00:34:07.480 --> 00:34:14.719 just think go back, And at that point were you able for then? 357 00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:19.119 Were you kind of able to to live the way you wanted to live, 358 00:34:19.320 --> 00:34:24.559 whether that was like trying to to have relationships or dressing how you want or 359 00:34:24.639 --> 00:34:29.639 like, did that afford you a lot more freedom or were you still sort 360 00:34:29.679 --> 00:34:35.440 of trying to be cautious about how you move visibly at least through through the 361 00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:39.239 whole. Oh yeah, no, I was not. I was in a 362 00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:44.320 relationship when I moved out. You were, okay, Wow? Yeah? 363 00:34:44.480 --> 00:34:46.719 Was it the one? Was it the same one from sixteen or no? 364 00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:50.559 No? No, no, okay, it was a different person. I'm 365 00:34:50.679 --> 00:34:57.559 so impressed that you were able to have like multiple relationships still dealing with all 366 00:34:57.639 --> 00:35:00.239 of the things you were dealing with and living at home, and like that's 367 00:35:00.280 --> 00:35:04.519 incredible to me. Yeah, I don't know. I guess the hot on 368 00:35:04.639 --> 00:35:15.440 was yeah, yeah, yeah, I forget the question. I apologize. 369 00:35:16.239 --> 00:35:19.400 Oh, I forget it too. No, that's fine, I guess I 370 00:35:19.480 --> 00:35:22.880 know. I was just asking. Once you uh, once you did have 371 00:35:22.039 --> 00:35:28.880 your own living space, did that give you like a newfound sense of like 372 00:35:29.480 --> 00:35:34.880 or it sounds like you were kind of already living mostly how you wanted even 373 00:35:34.920 --> 00:35:38.960 while you were still trapped at home like you were dating and yeah, I 374 00:35:38.960 --> 00:35:45.079 guess yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean I was living how I wanted 375 00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:50.440 outside of the house, and then okay, living how I wanted when I 376 00:35:50.519 --> 00:35:54.639 was in my mother's house. Yeah, absolutely, But yeah, moving out 377 00:35:54.840 --> 00:36:01.840 was lying. I think you discovered very quickly, like I thought, like, 378 00:36:01.920 --> 00:36:05.559 okay, like I have a I have a degree, now, like 379 00:36:05.679 --> 00:36:07.719 I'll be able to live independently. And then you learned very very quickly, 380 00:36:08.079 --> 00:36:13.159 no one cares about No one cares about your BA and painting and it's useless. 381 00:36:13.440 --> 00:36:17.199 So yeah, nobody cares about my VS in theater and it's similar. 382 00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:28.159 So here's where we have overs. So yeah, I mean it was several 383 00:36:28.239 --> 00:36:30.559 years of living hand to mouth and some of those times, I mean, 384 00:36:30.559 --> 00:36:32.920 we're really we're really tough, Like there were a couple of times I had, 385 00:36:32.960 --> 00:36:37.199 like, you know, my power cut off and all that kind of 386 00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:44.000 stuff. But every time, you know, there was some kind of financial 387 00:36:44.039 --> 00:36:46.159 struggle. Always in my mind it was like is it this or is it 388 00:36:46.159 --> 00:36:51.360 the other thing? And always this is so much better than the other thing, 389 00:36:51.440 --> 00:36:55.519 the other thing being living with my mother to be clear, Yeah, 390 00:36:57.159 --> 00:37:00.599 yeah, so yeah, in some sense, no, see, this was 391 00:37:00.639 --> 00:37:07.320 not an ideal situation those first few years. But the answer is also yes, 392 00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:12.400 I was living the way I wanted, which was a way okay. 393 00:37:13.239 --> 00:37:16.440 And can I ask in Singapore because I've spoken to folks who have lived in 394 00:37:17.840 --> 00:37:23.400 various countries in the Middle East where it's like really on the down low in 395 00:37:23.519 --> 00:37:29.480 every sense of the word, and it's like can't have any sort of indication 396 00:37:29.719 --> 00:37:36.280 and it's underground places where you can And in Singapore if you want to go 397 00:37:36.360 --> 00:37:40.480 to like a queer space or something, are there those places or is it 398 00:37:40.519 --> 00:37:46.159 all sort of like they okay, okay, So even though public television that's 399 00:37:46.199 --> 00:37:50.360 a no, there are at least places oh yeah, you can go to 400 00:37:50.360 --> 00:37:53.119 be There are a lot. It's it's a very complex situation, so there 401 00:37:53.159 --> 00:37:58.199 are lots of places can go less less so in my like when I was 402 00:37:58.199 --> 00:38:04.800 a teenager. But yeah, yeah, So basically the post the colonial law 403 00:38:04.880 --> 00:38:10.079 three seven seven A thank you to the British. We are former British colony, 404 00:38:12.519 --> 00:38:16.239 but that was so much to thank them for. Yeah. Seven A 405 00:38:16.480 --> 00:38:25.519 basically criminalizes sex between sex between men, or rather more accurately, sex between 406 00:38:25.559 --> 00:38:34.079 people who were considered men by the law, and that statute existed right until 407 00:38:34.599 --> 00:38:42.519 the end of last year. So basically have like a man having sex with 408 00:38:42.840 --> 00:38:47.920 another man was a criminal act. And for many, many years, the 409 00:38:49.000 --> 00:38:59.599 compromise that was given to the queer community from up above was that we have 410 00:38:59.639 --> 00:39:06.559 the law in the books as a symbol, but we won't God okay. 411 00:39:07.960 --> 00:39:12.679 As trying to make basically the nature of compromises that no one is happy, 412 00:39:12.760 --> 00:39:20.360 right, so yeah, no one is happy, like okay. But so 413 00:39:20.360 --> 00:39:24.760 so even when this law was still on the books, i e. When 414 00:39:24.800 --> 00:39:29.679 you were when you were younger and you're just moving on everything, there were 415 00:39:29.719 --> 00:39:32.760 at least it sounds like, still spaces. Yes, absolutely, people could 416 00:39:32.920 --> 00:39:38.000 gether. It was just like that, that's such a paradox. Exactly, 417 00:39:38.039 --> 00:39:42.559 here's a space for you. But by the way, I don't actually go 418 00:39:42.639 --> 00:39:45.239 home with anyone and have sex because that's a leeg like what a Yeah, 419 00:39:45.320 --> 00:39:53.719 so a lot of it's it's also why it takes a lot uh kind of 420 00:39:53.760 --> 00:40:00.960 explaining activism and explaining the queer situation as a really like law long conversation. 421 00:40:00.039 --> 00:40:07.039 Because of this kind of complexity. There are lots of gay bars. There 422 00:40:07.119 --> 00:40:13.960 is an annual starting in two thousand and nine, there was a gathering in 423 00:40:14.519 --> 00:40:17.719 Hong limb Park called Pink Dot that has lasted until now. It started with, 424 00:40:17.800 --> 00:40:22.280 like I think, if I'm not wrong, about two thousand people and 425 00:40:22.320 --> 00:40:28.559 now it's in the ten thousands, and it's about the phrase that they use 426 00:40:28.679 --> 00:40:35.519 is freedom to love. It's a very mild kind of activism, but it 427 00:40:35.559 --> 00:40:38.199 has gained numbers and everybody knows about it, and it's visible and it's not 428 00:40:38.400 --> 00:40:45.880 illegal. Of course, gatherings protests in Singapore allowed in one park, Hong 429 00:40:45.960 --> 00:40:50.480 Limp Park, so you apply for the license and the government you know, 430 00:40:50.519 --> 00:40:53.280 approves it. So there's that. But that for all these years was happening 431 00:40:53.360 --> 00:40:58.039 in the same country where sex between men was a criminal act. Yeah, 432 00:40:58.239 --> 00:41:01.440 this is so Yeah, I'm embarrassed at how little I know. I'm glad 433 00:41:01.480 --> 00:41:07.239 you name check crazy ritations in the book because I think in your essay because 434 00:41:07.239 --> 00:41:13.760 for so many Americans that is like the majority of our knowledge that like comes 435 00:41:13.800 --> 00:41:21.760 from that film. So I'm glad to have you speak on all of the 436 00:41:19.880 --> 00:41:24.760 in the contradictions. Yeah. No, I was happy to write about that 437 00:41:24.880 --> 00:41:30.559 as well. Yeah, I bet, I bet. Yeah, So yeah, 438 00:41:30.559 --> 00:41:34.719 I mean especially I don't want to. I don't want to. You 439 00:41:34.880 --> 00:41:40.119 know, it's definitely not a situation like where you know, you mentioned in 440 00:41:40.159 --> 00:41:45.440 their countries, but you really really really really have to hide. There's a 441 00:41:45.519 --> 00:41:55.039 thriving you know, that's a thriving literature community in Singapore, and there are 442 00:41:55.039 --> 00:42:01.360 a lot of queer people making writings. There are a lot of younger queer 443 00:42:01.400 --> 00:42:09.159 people who run spoken with events and poetry events, and a lot of them 444 00:42:09.599 --> 00:42:17.119 are queer. But again, you're in a space where, to my knowledge 445 00:42:17.159 --> 00:42:20.039 again, I'm just going to say, to my knowledge, you know, 446 00:42:20.079 --> 00:42:24.800 public portrayals on TV are still not alone. So it's good. That's very 447 00:42:25.039 --> 00:42:30.239 you get like a whiplash with this is very confusing. I'm glad to hear 448 00:42:30.280 --> 00:42:35.000 that there is a community though. Absolutely. Yeah, I'm so glad. 449 00:42:37.239 --> 00:42:39.960 Could I ask in terms of because so it sounds like you were initially more 450 00:42:40.239 --> 00:42:45.119 focused on visual arts. Were you always Were you always a writer? Were 451 00:42:45.119 --> 00:42:49.159 you always sort of like keeping journals and writing about experiences? And at what 452 00:42:49.280 --> 00:42:55.039 point did that become sort of your mode of expression or are they both still? 453 00:42:55.679 --> 00:42:58.960 Do you? Do you still? Do you still paint? Like how 454 00:42:59.000 --> 00:43:05.559 does that figure into into your work? And now, Yeah, that's an 455 00:43:05.599 --> 00:43:10.039 interesting question. I think I've always loved language in the sense that I've always 456 00:43:10.039 --> 00:43:15.079 loved to read, But in terms of like starting out, I was definitely 457 00:43:17.039 --> 00:43:22.599 I definitely never thought about becoming a writer when I was a kid, and 458 00:43:22.679 --> 00:43:29.280 I thought a lot about becoming an artist. And I think when I was 459 00:43:29.320 --> 00:43:36.280 doing school, I did a lot of writing next to my drawing in my 460 00:43:36.320 --> 00:43:40.599 sketch books. And again this is not something I realized was not usually the 461 00:43:40.599 --> 00:43:47.039 case until my teacher has told me. And at some point I moved from 462 00:43:47.079 --> 00:43:54.719 doing strict painting into like working with texts, like in installations and in other 463 00:43:54.840 --> 00:44:01.480 kinds of art making, and that seemed to be where liked to be. 464 00:44:02.320 --> 00:44:07.639 So yeah, I think that's where that's where I started writing my sketch books 465 00:44:07.719 --> 00:44:14.599 essentially. Yeah, And I mean the in the book it's I mean, 466 00:44:14.599 --> 00:44:21.639 it's personal essays like it's kind of the most vulnerable thing you can you can 467 00:44:21.679 --> 00:44:23.760 put out there? Is that something like because I know you moved, I 468 00:44:23.760 --> 00:44:30.599 didn't realize until we'd spoken how recently you had relocated to Vancouver. But is 469 00:44:30.880 --> 00:44:35.159 do you feel like the book is that a result of like of like, 470 00:44:35.440 --> 00:44:37.800 you know, completely moving countries and being like, oh, suddenly, like 471 00:44:37.880 --> 00:44:44.360 I feel now I feel free to like write these incredibly personal, vulnerable essays 472 00:44:44.400 --> 00:44:46.039 like did that almost surprise you when you were like, this is what I 473 00:44:46.079 --> 00:44:52.559 want to write? Oh, yeah, that's interesting. Yes and no. 474 00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:59.559 So my book Before This was also my memoir before This and The Walls Come 475 00:44:59.559 --> 00:45:09.119 Crumbling Down was also personal. I think that one the chapters are interconnected in 476 00:45:09.159 --> 00:45:13.639 a way that's different from this one, where they're much more separate. But 477 00:45:14.039 --> 00:45:20.280 that book was essentially about me moving house and having one of the places I 478 00:45:20.280 --> 00:45:22.360 stayed at had a really bad turn my infestation, and things were just kind 479 00:45:22.360 --> 00:45:27.760 of breaking down around me. And at the same time I was having trouble 480 00:45:27.840 --> 00:45:35.920 with the relationship and so everything was breaking down. So it's not the first 481 00:45:35.920 --> 00:45:43.360 time that I've written like personal things and put it out, but definitely I 482 00:45:43.400 --> 00:45:52.320 did not expect to be writing about Singapore after leaving it, And the first 483 00:45:52.320 --> 00:45:57.920 thing when I wrote when I got here was I basically came in. My 484 00:45:59.039 --> 00:46:01.079 school was my way of getting here. So I did an MFA and creative 485 00:46:01.079 --> 00:46:08.679 writing, and the first assignment we got was to write a letter to someone. 486 00:46:09.320 --> 00:46:14.639 And my mother had died that same year, So that final essay in 487 00:46:14.719 --> 00:46:16.760 the book is the first thing I wrote for the book, and the first 488 00:46:16.760 --> 00:46:22.079 thing I wrote when I got to Canada. And again this didn't translate at 489 00:46:22.119 --> 00:46:25.480 the time to oh, this could be part of a collection. But in 490 00:46:25.559 --> 00:46:34.679 a lot of my classes, I was writing about horror and I was writing 491 00:46:34.719 --> 00:46:40.159 about Singapore, just because these things seemed to speak to specific assignments. And 492 00:46:40.199 --> 00:46:44.519 then someone kind of pointed out I think it was in one non fiction class 493 00:46:45.320 --> 00:46:49.840 where I passed. I mentioned very passingly in conversation about the Tough Club, 494 00:46:51.119 --> 00:46:54.199 you know, the nationwide weight loss program. That was, oh, yes, 495 00:46:54.320 --> 00:47:00.000 you mentioned I mentioned. I mentioned about how we like at one point 496 00:47:00.239 --> 00:47:07.480 the goals in my school, including myself, who were forced to exercise durings, 497 00:47:07.559 --> 00:47:09.800 had to do it like in a place where we were viewable from the 498 00:47:09.840 --> 00:47:14.599 canteen where everyone was eating, and so I just mentioned it and I laughed 499 00:47:14.599 --> 00:47:17.559 and then someone's like, hold up, yeah, and this is like a 500 00:47:17.599 --> 00:47:24.320 government program. It was organized by the Ministry of Education, Okay, and 501 00:47:24.360 --> 00:47:29.960 can you explain it really? So it's TAF and can you okare again heer 502 00:47:30.239 --> 00:47:34.360 F stands fortune and fit. But if you see it's an acronym, it's 503 00:47:34.400 --> 00:47:38.639 clearly fat backwards backwards. Yes, and this is we have this thing. 504 00:47:38.920 --> 00:47:44.159 I think we still have it called the Presidential Fitness Test, which feels like 505 00:47:44.360 --> 00:47:47.719 a more thinly veiled version of this. But yeah, like governments are obsessed. 506 00:47:47.800 --> 00:47:52.440 I feel like with having kids be in shape in case there's a warren, 507 00:47:52.519 --> 00:47:54.280 we have to start drafting kids, like we want those fit soldiers. 508 00:47:54.280 --> 00:47:59.920 So that's always like the nefarious underbelly of this. But so yeah, so 509 00:48:00.199 --> 00:48:07.480 it sounds like young girls were forced to like basically do calisthenics and people eating 510 00:48:07.559 --> 00:48:12.480 can watch them. Is that I don't know about calisthenics. I don't actually 511 00:48:12.480 --> 00:48:15.400 know about it, but it might be exaggerated. But yeah, you're doing 512 00:48:15.519 --> 00:48:21.519 aerobic Yeah, this was not a relegated to girls. It was it was 513 00:48:21.880 --> 00:48:24.239 it was kids. It's a primary school and high school. Like anyone who 514 00:48:24.320 --> 00:48:30.480 was in a government school essentially a school that was partially awfully funded by Okay, 515 00:48:30.519 --> 00:48:32.000 so this is like what we have in America. I swear to God, 516 00:48:32.079 --> 00:48:38.280 every country has their version of interesting get in shape kids. Yeah. 517 00:48:38.320 --> 00:48:43.159 Wow, Okay. So someone so someone pointed that out essentially and said, 518 00:48:43.599 --> 00:48:46.880 this sounds like that specific action of where we were exercising. She said, 519 00:48:47.239 --> 00:48:52.039 oh, this feels like it's very petty, and then she kind of couldn't 520 00:48:52.119 --> 00:48:54.599 let it go. And then I was like, Oh, this is something 521 00:48:54.639 --> 00:49:01.239 I've normalized that seems interesting to all the people. Yeah. So I think 522 00:49:01.280 --> 00:49:05.920 a lot of my a lot of school was just exploring like what it is 523 00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:12.840 I've come to think of as just ship that happened and realizing oh no, 524 00:49:13.960 --> 00:49:22.559 this is not this is okay. So that's how that's That's a little bit 525 00:49:22.559 --> 00:49:27.239 about how the book came about. Okay. And I love the the horror 526 00:49:27.559 --> 00:49:31.320 elements and the movies that you talk about, because there is such a link 527 00:49:31.519 --> 00:49:37.760 between queerness and horror film, like the fandoms overlap, like queer people love 528 00:49:37.760 --> 00:49:43.920 horror movies. I will shout out former guest bj Colangelo who writes about horror 529 00:49:43.960 --> 00:49:47.519 and like, just I think the symbolism and a lot of horror movies queer 530 00:49:47.559 --> 00:49:53.760 people really relate to. But yeah, I just really like how you talk 531 00:49:53.800 --> 00:50:00.320 about Carrie and uh there and a number of other movies. But just yeah, 532 00:50:00.320 --> 00:50:06.960 that that horror element feels like a lot of queer people resonate with it, 533 00:50:07.519 --> 00:50:10.880 like feeling like you're the out and sympathizing with like the quote unquote monster, 534 00:50:13.159 --> 00:50:15.400 the title of the book and all of that. Like, yeah, 535 00:50:15.559 --> 00:50:22.519 I just really like how you thank you and yeah, do you want to 536 00:50:22.599 --> 00:50:25.960 talk like have you always been a horror fed or what? How did that 537 00:50:27.079 --> 00:50:32.320 sort of how did that work its way into your into your life into the 538 00:50:32.440 --> 00:50:40.000 book? Yeah? Have I always been a horror fan? That's I mean, 539 00:50:43.199 --> 00:50:46.480 I grew up. I mean my mother read me revelations, you know 540 00:50:46.519 --> 00:50:50.960 what I mean. That's the ultimate horror. Yeah, that's like so much 541 00:50:50.960 --> 00:50:57.039 scarier than like The Ring exactly. You're going to essentially, you do one 542 00:50:57.239 --> 00:51:02.320 wrong thing and you the world and you haven't asked for forgiveness because your timing 543 00:51:02.360 --> 00:51:08.079 is shitty. You're just going to but in hell for Tennessee. And again, 544 00:51:08.119 --> 00:51:13.719 I'm not like one of the ones. I'm not saying obviously that all 545 00:51:15.239 --> 00:51:20.519 religion tells you this it's just what my mother total experience. Yeah, I 546 00:51:20.639 --> 00:51:22.880 wonder if horror for queer people. I mean it is. I just spoke 547 00:51:22.920 --> 00:51:27.320 about this, but it's like a way of kind of reclaiming it and making 548 00:51:27.320 --> 00:51:34.039 it less threatening and more like fun and like spooky and like having ownership over 549 00:51:34.880 --> 00:51:39.440 being exposed to like this kind of stuff. Yeah, I can totally. 550 00:51:39.760 --> 00:51:43.559 I can totally. I mean, how are you a horr fan? Do 551 00:51:43.599 --> 00:51:46.480 you? I? Here's my thing. I am such a whoss And I 552 00:51:46.559 --> 00:51:51.679 feel left out of so much of the conversation because so many queer people love 553 00:51:51.719 --> 00:51:54.440 horror and I'm so scared. But I have seen Carrie and you got to 554 00:51:54.480 --> 00:51:57.920 see carry It as a classic. I have seen The Ring. The Ring 555 00:51:58.159 --> 00:52:01.559 is probably the scariest movie I've ever Like, that's my bar. I never 556 00:52:01.639 --> 00:52:07.079 want to see anything that scary ever again. But yeah, it's hard for 557 00:52:07.079 --> 00:52:09.559 me to see horror, and I feel like I miss out on a lot 558 00:52:09.559 --> 00:52:14.159 of cool queer stuff because there is a lot of cool queer horror and I'm 559 00:52:14.199 --> 00:52:22.280 like, I can't do it. Okay, a nightmare, Yeah, it 560 00:52:22.400 --> 00:52:28.239 is a very It is a very I'm not saying that you're on the polar 561 00:52:28.280 --> 00:52:31.400 end, but it's a very polarizing genre, I think, and I think 562 00:52:31.440 --> 00:52:36.599 it's really interesting that people people who do love horror come come to it for 563 00:52:36.679 --> 00:52:44.199 really varying reasons. Like you said, like I know a lot of queer 564 00:52:44.239 --> 00:52:46.039 people who love horror, a lot of people who like to like watch it 565 00:52:46.119 --> 00:52:52.840 and you know, analyze it and think about it. And I love doing 566 00:52:52.840 --> 00:52:54.360 that as well. Then you come you know, there are also people who 567 00:52:54.920 --> 00:53:01.519 absolute horror friends who google there for the blood and go, Yeah, but 568 00:53:01.559 --> 00:53:07.800 it's but horror. Some horror movies are like incredibly progressive and like a lot 569 00:53:07.840 --> 00:53:12.360 of horror movies we're sort of doing messaging and stuff years before that became more 570 00:53:12.440 --> 00:53:15.280 mainstreams. So like it is that's why I feel bad. I'm like, 571 00:53:15.559 --> 00:53:20.960 that's so scary. But I know there's like really there is, like fundamentally 572 00:53:21.119 --> 00:53:25.239 horror. Horror has been an important genre like politically and socially, and it's 573 00:53:25.320 --> 00:53:30.840 just like, yeah, it's it's really interesting. Yeah, And I think 574 00:53:30.840 --> 00:53:35.599 there's just such an intrinsic link between like queer people and horror. And I 575 00:53:35.599 --> 00:53:37.280 love that. That's I love that that's a thing and I try to partake 576 00:53:37.320 --> 00:53:42.440 in it as much as I can handle. I know if you're looking for 577 00:53:42.480 --> 00:53:47.360 a gateway, I highly recommend horror documentaries. Okay, yeah, maybe that 578 00:53:47.400 --> 00:53:52.320 would put it more and like I'd have a little distance. Then we'll have 579 00:53:52.360 --> 00:53:59.960 some spoilers, like some shock spoilers like already process like you've seen already. 580 00:54:00.920 --> 00:54:05.440 Yeah, and of course if you like Carra for like the intellectual things, 581 00:54:05.480 --> 00:54:07.280 that's the most easiest way to get into it, right watching someone talk about 582 00:54:07.320 --> 00:54:16.440 Bara, Yeah, definitely the book really is. I really really enjoyed what 583 00:54:16.559 --> 00:54:22.280 I read and just yeah, I yeah, so okay, So so wrapping 584 00:54:22.440 --> 00:54:27.199 up, where can people I know, pre orders are important, so the 585 00:54:27.239 --> 00:54:30.119 book is coming out again February sixth, but where can people pre order it? 586 00:54:30.559 --> 00:54:35.599 Where can they find it online? What stores should they go to? 587 00:54:35.960 --> 00:54:38.880 Uh? And also if you personally would like to be found on social media, 588 00:54:38.960 --> 00:54:44.639 where can people find you? So yeah, all the things. Yeah, 589 00:54:44.679 --> 00:54:49.000 So I think my most public social media in terms of why I post 590 00:54:49.000 --> 00:54:54.039 the most information about the book is my Instagram and you can probably Unfortunately, 591 00:54:54.039 --> 00:54:58.360 Tiny de Rosario was taken, so it's like Tany de Risa with a bunch 592 00:54:58.400 --> 00:55:01.679 of full stops and underschools. I have an underscore in mine. I feel 593 00:55:01.719 --> 00:55:09.000 you it's so frustrating. Yeah, so if you type yeah, I'll put 594 00:55:09.000 --> 00:55:13.400 your handle in the show notes as well. Thank you. I'm also on 595 00:55:13.440 --> 00:55:16.679 Twitter and Facebook. Oh. My Twitter handle is Tawny d Rosario. That's 596 00:55:16.679 --> 00:55:21.599 easy to find if you go to if you're looking for the book, if 597 00:55:21.599 --> 00:55:24.199 you go to my Instagram, my link tree will have where you can buy 598 00:55:24.199 --> 00:55:29.480 it depending on where you are. But I always encourage you to go to 599 00:55:29.559 --> 00:55:32.760 your local bookstores. Yes, yes, as do I yes, yes, 600 00:55:32.880 --> 00:55:39.079 yes, excellent, okay, And I am at Lauren Flans on Twitter and 601 00:55:39.159 --> 00:55:43.440 Blue Sky, and then I had the same experience on Instagram, So I 602 00:55:43.440 --> 00:55:49.119 am Lauren Underscore Flans on Instagram because someone got Lauren Flans and it's not their 603 00:55:49.119 --> 00:55:52.559 real name. They stole it out from under me before I was on Instagram, 604 00:55:52.599 --> 00:55:57.000 so shame on you. If you're listening, the podcast is at Coming 605 00:55:57.000 --> 00:56:00.920 Out Pod everywhere. That hashtag is hashtag coming out Pod. I would like 606 00:56:00.960 --> 00:56:07.039 to shout out my incredible patrons, Carmel, Kaz Simone, Kayad, Michelle 607 00:56:07.280 --> 00:56:12.719 el Adri, Tanya spelled the same way. We have a patron named Tanya, 608 00:56:12.800 --> 00:56:16.960 same spelling. Very exciting. Pooh Kien Smiley, Aaron Mitchell, Diego 609 00:56:17.039 --> 00:56:22.599 Hernandez and beyond Clexa dot com and as always, you hear me say it 610 00:56:22.639 --> 00:56:24.559 every week. A great way to support the podcast for free is if you 611 00:56:24.599 --> 00:56:30.559 want to go and give it five stars. A five star rating on either 612 00:56:30.159 --> 00:56:37.599 iTunes, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify is a great way to help the podcast 613 00:56:37.639 --> 00:56:40.800 for free. Tanya, it was so great to speak to you. I 614 00:56:40.880 --> 00:56:47.159 really enjoyed your book. I'm excited for it to come out and for you 615 00:56:47.239 --> 00:56:52.559 to be celebrated accordingly. Yeah, thank you for speaking to me. Thank 616 00:56:52.599 --> 00:56:54.840 you so much for having me. It was so great to be here. 617 00:56:55.000 --> 00:56:59.960 I really appreciate the time of the space seek. Oh my God, say 618 00:57:00.320 --> 00:57:07.880 thank you. All Right, y'all, I will talk to you next week. Bye.