WEBVTT 1 00:00:33.079 --> 00:00:36.880 Welcome back to the Path Went Chilly from part two of our series on the 2 00:00:36.960 --> 00:00:41.799 unsolved disappearance of Mary Agnes Gross. Robin, do you want to catch everyone 3 00:00:41.880 --> 00:00:45.000 up on what we talked about in our previous episode. Well, this is 4 00:00:45.039 --> 00:00:49.840 definitely one of the weirdest disappearances we've ever covered, because Mary Agnes Gross supposedly 5 00:00:49.840 --> 00:00:54.399 went missing almost immediately after she was born. Her mother, Marlus, was 6 00:00:54.439 --> 00:00:58.600 a single mother. She decided to separate from her husband seven months into her 7 00:00:58.600 --> 00:01:00.880 pregnancy, but still decide she was going to give birth to her daughter, 8 00:01:02.039 --> 00:01:07.280 Mary Agnes and raise her anyway. She went under anesthesia, gave birth, 9 00:01:07.359 --> 00:01:11.680 but then was told a few hours later that Mary Agnes had died a short 10 00:01:11.760 --> 00:01:15.000 time later, but the hospital acted very suspiciously like they only let her see 11 00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:19.760 her daughter's body for about ten to fifteen seconds. She was not allowed to 12 00:01:19.760 --> 00:01:23.519 see any photographs, and they held the funeral for while Marlus was still in 13 00:01:23.560 --> 00:01:27.120 the hospital. Marlus a couple months later after she was released, she received 14 00:01:27.159 --> 00:01:33.359 a photograph of a family holding a baby, which she thought might have had 15 00:01:33.359 --> 00:01:37.439 a resemblance to Mary Agnes, because it seemed to resemble her ex husband and 16 00:01:37.480 --> 00:01:42.280 there was no logical reason why someone would send her this photograph without any context, 17 00:01:42.719 --> 00:01:47.000 but regardless, she had Marla's buried at a cemetery and would constantly visit 18 00:01:47.040 --> 00:01:51.000 her burial plot over the next three years. But then in nineteen ninety three, 19 00:01:51.519 --> 00:01:57.359 Marla's got very suspicious when she saw the headstone for another deceased infront named 20 00:01:57.400 --> 00:02:02.359 Pamela Ray Dickey over Mary Agnes's plot and found out that the cemetery had no 21 00:02:02.480 --> 00:02:07.199 records for a Mary Agnes Gross, so she started doing her own investigating finally 22 00:02:07.199 --> 00:02:12.520 got a court order to exhume her daughter's grave, and they did find some 23 00:02:12.560 --> 00:02:15.719 skeletal remains in there, but DNA testing proved that they did not belong to 24 00:02:17.080 --> 00:02:22.120 Mary Agnes. And it also turned out that to the child, Pamela Ray 25 00:02:22.199 --> 00:02:25.000 Dickie, who was in the next burial plot, her mother had given birth 26 00:02:25.000 --> 00:02:30.240 to her in the exact same hospital and as the exact same day that Mary 27 00:02:30.280 --> 00:02:35.000 Agnes was born. But Pamela Ray also died and as far as her family 28 00:02:35.080 --> 00:02:38.479 knew, they were having a funeral, they buried her body right next to 29 00:02:38.840 --> 00:02:43.159 Mary Agnes's grave. But it appears that something went horribly wrong either. There 30 00:02:43.199 --> 00:02:46.319 was a major clerical air or as Marlos believes, they decided to take Mary 31 00:02:46.319 --> 00:02:52.639 Agnes from her faker death and decide to illegally adopt her out to another family 32 00:02:52.960 --> 00:02:55.639 who may have been the family that she saw in the photographs she received. 33 00:02:55.719 --> 00:03:00.919 But unfortunately Marlos passed away without receiving any answers about what happened to Mary Agnes, 34 00:03:01.159 --> 00:03:05.840 and it's unclear if she might still be alive somewhere under a new identity. 35 00:03:06.479 --> 00:03:08.680 So when we left So when we left off on our last episode, 36 00:03:08.719 --> 00:03:14.000 we were discussing the possibility that Mary Agnes was taken from her mother and adopted 37 00:03:14.039 --> 00:03:17.800 out as part of some black market baby selling operation. Sadly, these type 38 00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:22.599 of operations were not on common during the first half of the twentieth century. 39 00:03:23.039 --> 00:03:27.080 But I have to concede that no one has ever uncovered any evidence to suggest 40 00:03:27.120 --> 00:03:30.599 that they existed in the Worthington, Minnesota and the Worthington and the Worthington, 41 00:03:30.680 --> 00:03:38.120 Minnesota era. In the Worthington, Minnesota area in nineteen sixty two, Worthington 42 00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:42.240 had a population of just over nine thousand people at that time, and when 43 00:03:42.280 --> 00:03:46.719 Mary Agnes's story started receiving coverage in the local newspapers during the mid nineteen nineties. 44 00:03:47.039 --> 00:03:52.800 A number of the area's residents offered their comments. They described Worthington as 45 00:03:52.840 --> 00:03:55.400 one of those small towns where everybody knew everyone, and they had a hard 46 00:03:55.400 --> 00:04:00.759 time believing that multiple people would have been willing to orchestrate a conspiracy to steal 47 00:04:00.280 --> 00:04:04.520 to steal a newborn baby away from her mother. In our last episode, 48 00:04:04.759 --> 00:04:11.240 we made reference to a woman named Georgia Tan who ran an illegal operation which 49 00:04:11.280 --> 00:04:15.719 involves stealing and adopting out children at a profit for over twenty five years. 50 00:04:15.399 --> 00:04:19.279 The main reason Tan was able to keep this going for so long was because 51 00:04:19.279 --> 00:04:24.480 she stole children away from poor families who could not afford to defend themselves in 52 00:04:24.560 --> 00:04:28.920 court. And she also allegedly had a prominent local judge in her back pocket 53 00:04:28.959 --> 00:04:32.199 who would always rule in her favor. But if you believe Mary Agnes Gross 54 00:04:32.279 --> 00:04:36.959 was stolen and sold on the black market, the responsible parties actually had to 55 00:04:38.000 --> 00:04:41.720 go to the trouble of faking her death in order to prevent her birth mother 56 00:04:41.800 --> 00:04:46.399 from searching for and this would have required the cooperation of multiple individuals from not 57 00:04:46.480 --> 00:04:49.879 just the local hospital, but the local funeral home as well. Now I 58 00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:54.240 don't know what kind of money they would have made from an illegal adoption that 59 00:04:54.360 --> 00:04:57.879 after splitting the cut of the profits, But after splitting the cut of the 60 00:04:57.920 --> 00:05:00.519 profits among that many people, would it really have been worth a while? 61 00:05:01.240 --> 00:05:06.319 Well, I'm wondering if it wasn't more for moral interest over financial gains. 62 00:05:06.360 --> 00:05:10.199 So we kind of talked about this on the first episode. But when you 63 00:05:10.319 --> 00:05:13.439 look at the nineteen fifties and sixties, when we know a lot of these 64 00:05:13.560 --> 00:05:16.399 kind of scams were going on, I wonder if a lot of it was 65 00:05:16.480 --> 00:05:21.600 more geared towards religious beliefs and moral beliefs at the time, that a single 66 00:05:21.720 --> 00:05:28.959 mom like Marlis in this case, wasn't quote capable of raising the child and 67 00:05:29.240 --> 00:05:32.199 or would not create the perfect home for that child, that a mother and 68 00:05:32.399 --> 00:05:38.319 father were needed to raise the baby, and therefore to either take the child 69 00:05:38.639 --> 00:05:45.399 and just out of compassion give it to another family because they would raise that 70 00:05:45.480 --> 00:05:49.759 baby better, or manipulate and have a more sinister version for money as possible 71 00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:54.240 as well. But I wouldn't put it past people to just say the best 72 00:05:54.319 --> 00:05:58.160 home for that baby would be somewhere else. That's what I think too. 73 00:05:58.240 --> 00:06:01.319 I think the conspiracy of many makes a lot more sense when it's not just 74 00:06:01.360 --> 00:06:05.959 like a little bit of money in everybody's pocket, but it's literally their moral 75 00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:11.199 compass that's saying this is the right thing to do. This is an unwedded 76 00:06:11.319 --> 00:06:14.639 mother, she's not going to be the right person to raise this baby. 77 00:06:14.759 --> 00:06:17.519 We need to give this baby to a two person household. Because if it's 78 00:06:17.519 --> 00:06:21.319 in alignment with your religious beliefs and not just greed, I think people are 79 00:06:21.319 --> 00:06:25.240 more likely to keep your mouth shut, like we did the right thing. 80 00:06:25.279 --> 00:06:27.959 I think you can sleep easier at night when you say we did the right 81 00:06:28.040 --> 00:06:31.639 thing. Oh yeah, totally. All that being said, there's also the 82 00:06:31.680 --> 00:06:36.319 possibility that the motive for taking Mary Agnes away from Marla's was not a financial 83 00:06:36.360 --> 00:06:40.759 decision, like we just said, but a moral one. So quite simply, 84 00:06:40.839 --> 00:06:44.600 since this was nineteen sixty two, they may have felt this child did 85 00:06:44.639 --> 00:06:47.759 not deserve to be raised by a single mother. There isn't any information out 86 00:06:47.759 --> 00:06:53.360 there about Marlas's ex husband, Late and Gross and why their marriage came to 87 00:06:53.439 --> 00:06:57.720 an end, but you'd have to think that something went seriously wrong if Marla's 88 00:06:57.759 --> 00:07:01.480 decided to separate from him when she was seven months pregnant. By the time 89 00:07:01.480 --> 00:07:06.759 this story started generating headlines during the nineteen nineties, Layton was already deceased, 90 00:07:08.079 --> 00:07:11.319 so we never got to hear his side of the story. But it doesn't 91 00:07:11.319 --> 00:07:15.040 sound like Layton was present when Mary Agnes was born, so I'm not sure 92 00:07:15.079 --> 00:07:17.839 how much interest he had in his daughter. Whatever the case, it's no 93 00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:23.319 big secret that the world did not have The world did not have the most 94 00:07:23.319 --> 00:07:28.439 progressive attitude towards single mothers back in nineteen sixty two. Back in nineteen sixty 95 00:07:28.439 --> 00:07:32.160 two, so if words spread around Worthington that Marlis was planning to raise a 96 00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:35.720 child on her own, there might have been some people who believed it was 97 00:07:35.759 --> 00:07:41.360 their moral obligation to take Mary Agnes away from her and placed a child with 98 00:07:41.399 --> 00:07:46.959 a family. So any financial incentive to do this with secondary I am convinced 99 00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:49.079 that has to be kind of what drives this. And like we talked about 100 00:07:49.079 --> 00:07:54.720 on the last episode, is that this wasn't crazy late uncommon, Like there's 101 00:07:54.720 --> 00:07:58.759 a lot of cities where we can look and we can see different motivations like 102 00:07:58.879 --> 00:08:03.199 it maybe the race of the mother, the family dynamics, the single motherhood, 103 00:08:03.480 --> 00:08:07.800 the income of the family being low income, all of those things a 104 00:08:07.879 --> 00:08:11.240 Jewish family and people believing that the child should be raised in a Christian family, 105 00:08:11.519 --> 00:08:16.879 and those kinds of complications they were happening across the country. Yeah, 106 00:08:16.120 --> 00:08:20.399 like you said, it would be very difficult for that many people to keep 107 00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:24.279 a secret if it was just financially motivated. But if it was a moral 108 00:08:24.360 --> 00:08:26.480 thing where they all believed they were legitimately doing the right thing, then I 109 00:08:26.480 --> 00:08:30.839 can understand why they would be willing to remain silent about it. And they 110 00:08:30.879 --> 00:08:33.120 probably never dreamed that anyone would even hear about this story, that it would 111 00:08:33.120 --> 00:08:37.279 be featured on Saw Mystery three decades later, and that we'd still be talking 112 00:08:37.279 --> 00:08:41.799 about it on a podcast sixty years later. So if any of them are 113 00:08:41.840 --> 00:08:46.559 listening, shame on you. And I don't think that anybody thought that Marlis 114 00:08:46.600 --> 00:08:52.240 would fight for the truth, and they doggedly go after any kind of information 115 00:08:52.360 --> 00:08:56.399 she could to confirm what happened to Mary Agnes from petitioning the court to try 116 00:08:56.480 --> 00:09:01.919 to have Pamela ray Dicky's body exhumed, to like just I'm sure beating down 117 00:09:01.960 --> 00:09:05.120 doors in general and asking a lot of questions. I bet they figured that 118 00:09:05.159 --> 00:09:09.039 she would just kind of fade into the periphery and they would never hear from 119 00:09:09.039 --> 00:09:13.919 her again. But boy were they wrong. One thing about this story which 120 00:09:13.960 --> 00:09:18.799 strikes me is particularly strange is that Worthington Regional Hospital had a total of three 121 00:09:18.919 --> 00:09:22.360 newborn babies die under their watch in a span of just over twenty four hours. 122 00:09:22.919 --> 00:09:28.080 Mary Agnes, Pamelay, Dickie, and Julie Harride. I mean, 123 00:09:28.159 --> 00:09:30.879 if this happened in a big city, that would be one thing, but 124 00:09:31.000 --> 00:09:35.360 that seems like a pretty high infant mortality rate for a hospital in a town 125 00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:39.799 of around nine thousand people. There isn't much information out there about Julie Horide, 126 00:09:39.919 --> 00:09:45.279 but what's notable is the contrast between how her parents were treated following her 127 00:09:45.320 --> 00:09:48.759 death and how things were handled with Marlus. The Horides claimed they were allowed 128 00:09:48.799 --> 00:09:54.039 to spend some time with their deceased daughter's body and take photographs of her inside 129 00:09:54.039 --> 00:09:58.120 her casket, whereas Marlus and her mother were forbidden to take photos of both 130 00:09:58.120 --> 00:10:01.080 the hospital and the funeral home, and Marlos pretty much had to fight just 131 00:10:01.120 --> 00:10:05.879 to see Mary Agnes's body for ten to fifteen seconds, and while Margaret Dickey 132 00:10:07.000 --> 00:10:09.639 never got to see Pamela Ray's body following her death, she claimed that her 133 00:10:09.720 --> 00:10:15.080 husband did. The way the Rides and the Dickeys were treated following the loss 134 00:10:15.080 --> 00:10:18.399 of their child is exactly how you'd expect someone in their position to be traded. 135 00:10:18.799 --> 00:10:24.480 But it sounds like quite a different story with Marlos, for sure. 136 00:10:24.559 --> 00:10:26.399 I'm trying to look up right now the mortality rates in the sixties, and 137 00:10:26.440 --> 00:10:31.519 from what I can see, infant mortality rates, so not just newborns, 138 00:10:31.559 --> 00:10:35.679 but it says that there were about twenty six deaths per one thousand live births, 139 00:10:37.279 --> 00:10:43.360 and that declined down to like ten infant deaths for every thousand births in 140 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:48.679 nineteen ninety, but twenty six per thousand babies born. It is wild that 141 00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:52.679 there were three babies that night at the same hospital that passed away. I 142 00:10:52.720 --> 00:10:56.759 mean, two is really, really, really high. And like you guys 143 00:10:56.759 --> 00:11:01.799 said, there's not really a whole lot of ormation about Julie, but we 144 00:11:01.960 --> 00:11:07.320 do know a lot about Pamela Ray Dickey. That her family followed that baby 145 00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:11.679 from her birth, they were able to hold and grieve her. She looked 146 00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:16.759 like the baby that they saw at the funeral home, and that they thought 147 00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:20.159 they were preparing for their own burial of Mary Agnes, and then Pamela Dicky 148 00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:24.799 has our headstone there, so we're I'm very convinced that Pamela Dicky passed away, 149 00:11:24.840 --> 00:11:31.000 that Julie passed away. But Mary Agnes, those bones that were found 150 00:11:31.039 --> 00:11:35.240 in her makeshift grave, they weren't Mary Agnes's. Where did she go? 151 00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:39.159 Okay, Robin, I have a question for you. So this is a 152 00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:43.399 small place, right, We're not having like a hundred berths a night. 153 00:11:43.759 --> 00:11:48.240 I would think that maybe you're gonna have six a night. And if that 154 00:11:48.440 --> 00:11:52.679 is the case, you're looking at a fifty percent infant mortality rate. Do 155 00:11:52.759 --> 00:11:58.080 we know if doctor Shade or doctor Stam were involved with all of these infant 156 00:11:58.120 --> 00:12:01.159 deaths that night. That's a good question. I don't have that information. 157 00:12:01.240 --> 00:12:05.879 It didn't really say that at any sources I found. I mean, I'm 158 00:12:05.879 --> 00:12:09.919 assuming that could be the case because I'm guessing that a lot of these hospitals 159 00:12:09.919 --> 00:12:13.799 in small towns are not going to have a great deal of doctors. Different 160 00:12:13.799 --> 00:12:16.720 doctors we could give birth. But if they were responsible, like for all 161 00:12:16.759 --> 00:12:20.440 of these and they knew that, hey, there are two other infandess here 162 00:12:20.519 --> 00:12:26.000 and we could use them to kind of cover up Mary Agnes's situation, then 163 00:12:26.039 --> 00:12:30.080 maybe they felt this was a good time to fake her death. During the 164 00:12:30.120 --> 00:12:33.320 brief time she saw Mary Agnes, Marlas said it only looked like the child 165 00:12:33.399 --> 00:12:37.559 was sleeping, So the implication seems to be that Mary Agnes was still alive 166 00:12:37.600 --> 00:12:41.799 at that point and they were going to go to great lengths to keep her 167 00:12:41.799 --> 00:12:46.399 away from her mother. The fact that Marlas believed Mary Agnes was sleeping and 168 00:12:46.480 --> 00:12:50.960 not deceased definitely gives off the impression that something shady was happening. But the 169 00:12:52.000 --> 00:12:56.039 alternate explanation is that, sadly, perhaps Marla's was simply treated worse because she 170 00:12:56.120 --> 00:13:01.480 was a single mother. The Horrides and the Dicky may have been given all 171 00:13:01.519 --> 00:13:05.440 the time that they needed to gree for their child because they were married couples, 172 00:13:05.840 --> 00:13:09.600 but since Marla's was not, the staff may believe that she was not 173 00:13:09.720 --> 00:13:15.000 worthy of that same sensitivity. That's an awful mentality, but I could definitely 174 00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:18.600 see people feeling that way back then. Julia Ride is listed on the find 175 00:13:18.600 --> 00:13:24.000 a Grave website and it appears that she's buried at the same cemetery as Mary 176 00:13:24.039 --> 00:13:28.200 Agnes and Pamela Ray. But if her parents were allowed to photograph the child 177 00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:31.919 inside her casket and were present at her burial. Then I hope that eliminates 178 00:13:31.919 --> 00:13:37.960 the possibility that some sort of catastrophic mix up took place and there's no chance 179 00:13:37.000 --> 00:13:41.360 the remains found at Mary Agnes's grave site belonged to Julie. Well, remember 180 00:13:41.559 --> 00:13:46.080 that when Marla's goes by and she sees that bassinette and she says, like, 181 00:13:46.120 --> 00:13:48.720 please let me see my baby just for a second, and they let 182 00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:52.639 her peer in. She said that baby looked healthy, it looked like it 183 00:13:52.679 --> 00:13:56.240 was sleeping, and it also had that dark hair, whereas the baby that 184 00:13:56.919 --> 00:14:00.600 her mother was shown and her friend was shown at the funeral home had that 185 00:14:00.679 --> 00:14:05.679 really light hair just like baby Pamela did. And Pamela's parents were even able 186 00:14:05.720 --> 00:14:09.519 to say, yes, the coffin that we buried our baby, and that's 187 00:14:09.519 --> 00:14:11.519 the one that you saw as well, and come to find out they're at 188 00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:16.480 the same funeral grieving one child. So I think it's pretty clear that Pamela 189 00:14:16.600 --> 00:14:20.440 is a baby that they were shown, and Pamela is the one that was 190 00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:24.559 buried that day, And it's just so much like Mary Agnes's family was told 191 00:14:24.679 --> 00:14:28.279 like this is yours too, and everyone, like you said, thought that 192 00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:31.559 this family would just move on and go away. And I know it doesn't 193 00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:35.120 make a lot of sense to show Mary Agnes to Marlus if she was still 194 00:14:35.159 --> 00:14:39.399 alive, because as possible, she might notice her breathing or something. But 195 00:14:39.720 --> 00:14:41.759 I think it was just a situation where they just happened to be passing each 196 00:14:41.799 --> 00:14:46.559 other on the hallway, and Marlus was asking so much just at least let 197 00:14:46.600 --> 00:14:48.320 me see my baby for a moment. So they figured, well, if 198 00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:50.960 we don't at least give her like a little taste or something, she's going 199 00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:54.960 to get awfully suspicious. So we'll hold her up for like ten seconds and 200 00:14:54.039 --> 00:14:56.879 let you see her and then move her away. But I do think there's 201 00:14:56.919 --> 00:15:01.960 a good chance that Mary Agnes really was sleeping at that time and was not 202 00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:05.440 dead, which it's true. It is sad because that's literally the only time 203 00:15:05.480 --> 00:15:09.720 she ever got to see her baby in her entire life, and she's out 204 00:15:09.759 --> 00:15:15.279 there not knowing that she has another mother who missed her so dearly like badgets 205 00:15:15.279 --> 00:15:20.120 breaks my heart. Even if you overlook the hospital staffs rather cold behavior towards 206 00:15:20.159 --> 00:15:24.399 Marlus, there are some weird discrepancies in the records about Mary Agnes's birth. 207 00:15:26.080 --> 00:15:28.399 A lot has been made about the fact that the doctor who delivered Mary Agnes 208 00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:33.080 gave her ratings of two on her app Gar scores for her skin color and 209 00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:37.279 heart rate, even though some other paperwork states that the child was not breathing 210 00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:41.080 at the time she was born. While those results might seem unlikely if a 211 00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:45.639 newborn is unable to breathe, the alternate explanation which has been provided is that 212 00:15:45.679 --> 00:15:48.879 Marlus was heavily sedated during the birth, and a baby which is delivered under 213 00:15:48.879 --> 00:15:54.440 the effects of anaesthesia can initially give off the false impression that their heart rate 214 00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:58.159 and skin color are normal, so this could explain the adding consistency in Mary 215 00:15:58.159 --> 00:16:03.519 Agnes's app Our score. But the more troubling discrepancy are the times listed on 216 00:16:03.639 --> 00:16:07.799 her birth and death certificates, which are six twenty three and six thirty pm, 217 00:16:07.879 --> 00:16:11.759 respectively. If Mary Agnes was unable to breathe when she was born, 218 00:16:11.080 --> 00:16:17.159 then as plausible as she could have died seven minutes later. Yet Marlaus's pediatrician, 219 00:16:17.320 --> 00:16:21.279 doctor John Stamm, told her that Mary Agnes lived for one hour after 220 00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:23.960 she was born, and he hand wrote six twenty pm as the time of 221 00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:29.480 death on the exact same death certificate. Now, if you're looking for an 222 00:16:29.480 --> 00:16:33.080 innocent explanation, perhaps doctor Stam was telling the truth when he said that Mary 223 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:37.000 Agnes was alive for an hour and he meant to write seven twenty PM on 224 00:16:37.039 --> 00:16:41.399 the death certificate instead of six twenty. I mean Stam did not actually signed 225 00:16:41.440 --> 00:16:45.960 the certificate until June the fourteenth, two days after Mary Agnes was born, 226 00:16:47.519 --> 00:16:52.440 so enough time had passed for him to misremember things. It is possible that 227 00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:56.519 these discrepancies were the result of sloppy clerical errors rather than an intentional cover up, 228 00:16:56.840 --> 00:17:03.279 but the circumstances of mary Agnes's funeral and burial are make this story very 229 00:17:03.320 --> 00:17:07.680 confusing, well exactly. I mean. The thing is that they showed up 230 00:17:07.720 --> 00:17:11.720 and the moment that Pamela's family is there, and you know, Clara is 231 00:17:11.759 --> 00:17:15.960 there with the friend saying, hey, can we see our baby now? 232 00:17:15.160 --> 00:17:18.240 Can we take a picture? Can we pick out the casket? Like all 233 00:17:18.279 --> 00:17:22.839 of these things that had to happen, and there's only one human baby present 234 00:17:23.000 --> 00:17:26.519 there, do you know what I mean? Clearly someone had to go like, 235 00:17:26.559 --> 00:17:29.759 wait a minute, someone already picked a casket for this baby. Wait 236 00:17:29.799 --> 00:17:33.119 a minute, somebody already came in and viewed the body. Wait a minute, 237 00:17:33.279 --> 00:17:38.200 why are there two mothers or two families coming here to see this child 238 00:17:38.319 --> 00:17:44.119 when there's only one child here like that? It blows my mind that someone 239 00:17:44.200 --> 00:17:48.799 didn't say this baby is Pamela, and yes, gross is written on the 240 00:17:48.799 --> 00:17:52.599 top, but we're not sure what that's about because Pama's family's right there. 241 00:17:52.880 --> 00:17:57.599 So as you'll recall, Mary Agnes's funeral took place the day after she was 242 00:17:57.640 --> 00:18:03.400 born and was not well enough to leave the hospital by this point. So 243 00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:07.359 I think one of the potential sources of confusion is the fact that her mother, 244 00:18:07.480 --> 00:18:11.000 Clara, attended the funeral and Marlas is only sharing her account second hand. 245 00:18:11.599 --> 00:18:15.079 By the time the story came to light during the nineteen nineties, I 246 00:18:15.160 --> 00:18:19.279 believe Clara was already deceased, but if she had been able to provide her 247 00:18:19.279 --> 00:18:25.119 own first hand account to these events, it might answer some questions. Marlus's 248 00:18:25.160 --> 00:18:29.759 friend, Judy Voges, was present alongside Clara when she saw Mary Agnes inside 249 00:18:29.759 --> 00:18:33.839 her casket at the funeral home, but the description she provided of the child 250 00:18:33.000 --> 00:18:38.000 was much different than how Marlus remembered seeing her daughter at the hospital. Particularly 251 00:18:38.039 --> 00:18:41.759 when it came to the description of her hair, the implication seems to be 252 00:18:41.839 --> 00:18:48.240 that a completely different child besides Mary Agnes was inside that casket, and perhaps 253 00:18:48.319 --> 00:18:52.559 this is who the remains which were unearthed three decades later, actually belonged to. 254 00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:56.039 However, since the description Judy provided happened to match Pamela Ray Dickey, 255 00:18:56.440 --> 00:19:00.000 the alternate theory is that the child in the casket was her. Yeah, 256 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:04.480 I definitely think there could be a mix up based on communication error, but 257 00:19:04.599 --> 00:19:08.480 it was something this specific, I really do. I'm leaning more towards the 258 00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:15.400 Pamela Ray Dickey being the real identity of the baby that Clara was shown. 259 00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:18.759 So, as you recall, when Clara took photos of this casket at the 260 00:19:18.839 --> 00:19:25.359 cemetery, Pamela Ray's mother, Margaret later recognized it as the same casket her 261 00:19:25.400 --> 00:19:29.039 husband had purchased for her daughter's burial, and when this casket was laid to 262 00:19:29.079 --> 00:19:33.799 rest, Clara remembered another emotional family being at the grave site, and Margaret 263 00:19:33.799 --> 00:19:37.319 would confirm that her own family was there that day. Therefore, Clara may 264 00:19:37.359 --> 00:19:44.160 have actually attended Pamela Ray Dickey's funeral and burial without even realizing it. According 265 00:19:44.200 --> 00:19:48.640 to Margaret. Her family did not recall seeing Clara at Pamela Ray's grave site 266 00:19:48.680 --> 00:19:52.200 that day, Like given that they were not asked about this until over thirty 267 00:19:52.279 --> 00:19:56.640 years later, they could have easily forgotten. And since Clara had photos of 268 00:19:56.680 --> 00:20:00.400 the casket next to the burial plot that does confirm she was there. But 269 00:20:00.519 --> 00:20:04.519 how in the world but these events are played out, did no one mention 270 00:20:04.640 --> 00:20:10.599 either child's name during the entire funeral service. If this wasn't such a horribly 271 00:20:10.599 --> 00:20:15.400 tragic situation, you'd almost think this was some sort of wacky misunderstanding from a 272 00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:19.319 sitcom. Was someone completely oblivious to the fact that they're attending the wrong funeral? 273 00:20:19.960 --> 00:20:25.400 I just cannot comprehend this whole situation. If this wasn't a deliberate cover 274 00:20:25.559 --> 00:20:30.000 up to fake Mary Agnes's debt, then somebody must have screwed something up big 275 00:20:30.039 --> 00:20:33.279 time. Yeah, it almost seems like there's too many moving parts for it 276 00:20:33.400 --> 00:20:37.119 not to be a cover up. But then it's literally to this point of 277 00:20:37.160 --> 00:20:40.160 like you had people all the way to the funeral home, and the people 278 00:20:40.279 --> 00:20:45.480 burying this baby, the people performing the funeral, that no one mess this 279 00:20:45.640 --> 00:20:48.400 up for you, like that this was a seamless plot. It seems very 280 00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:53.880 complex, but I don't know. I do wonder how Clara could have gotten 281 00:20:53.920 --> 00:21:00.440 images of the casket and things like that and seeing this baby is so perfectly 282 00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:07.240 mirrored Pamela and then be wrong like that seems less likely than them saying, 283 00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:10.920 hey, we're willing to kind of take the money from two families. We 284 00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:14.680 know that that Mary Amis is in a better place and we're going to close 285 00:21:14.680 --> 00:21:18.960 our mouth. But then that means what ten people were involved in that O. 286 00:21:18.279 --> 00:21:21.599 This part is so confusing to me, and I don't know if it 287 00:21:21.680 --> 00:21:26.119 is to you both as well. But what about the fact that Marla's is 288 00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:30.359 unable to attend this funeral? Why is this funeral scheduled for one day after 289 00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:36.319 Mary Egnus is born? Don't the parents typically dictate when a funeral service will 290 00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:38.559 take place so that they can attend. Yeah, that's all so weird to 291 00:21:38.599 --> 00:21:42.440 me? Is that that just seems like awfully premature to like have to do 292 00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:45.720 it so quickly. I mean, even if it's not a baby, you're 293 00:21:45.799 --> 00:21:49.440 unlikely to have a funeral for someone who died the day afterwards, Like, 294 00:21:49.720 --> 00:21:53.039 why can't they just show more patients? Why not just say, give Marlas 295 00:21:53.039 --> 00:21:56.759 some time to recover. But I'm guessing they must have pressured her or something 296 00:21:56.799 --> 00:22:00.279 like that because her mother obviously agreed to go with it. So maybe it 297 00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:04.039 was a case where we'll pay for the funeral if you can have it tomorrow, 298 00:22:04.119 --> 00:22:07.079 but if you want to hold it off, then you're responsible for all 299 00:22:07.079 --> 00:22:11.319 the expenses. So maybe that's why they decided to go along with this. 300 00:22:11.160 --> 00:22:15.960 Yeah, that makes sense because it doesn't sound like Marlos would have had any 301 00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:18.920 great type of resources. She just experienced a divorce and now she's going through 302 00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:22.880 all this. So I think a lot of people when given the opportunity of 303 00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:29.000 knowing what caskets cost, they're so expensive. So if somebody's saying we'll do 304 00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:32.599 this for free for you, I can definitely see why you know, she 305 00:22:32.680 --> 00:22:36.160 might, I'm sure, kind of begrudgingly, because of course she would want 306 00:22:36.160 --> 00:22:38.279 to be there for her daughter's funeral, would just take them up on their 307 00:22:38.279 --> 00:22:41.599 offer. Well, you also have to remember this is the nineteen sixties, 308 00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:47.519 so I feel like the doctors were already pressuring her and pushing her around at 309 00:22:47.559 --> 00:22:51.039 the hospital, like listen, the baby's already been embalmed, Like nope, 310 00:22:51.079 --> 00:22:53.079 you don't get to see her, and there was already kind of this like 311 00:22:53.680 --> 00:22:59.440 just being defeated and you're already experiencing trauma, but having no one really show 312 00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:03.720 you empathy, your compassion, that if the body had really been taken an 313 00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:07.279 hour later and embalmed like they're speeding this along. It's almost like I could 314 00:23:07.319 --> 00:23:12.319 see these women in the case the friend Mom Marliss just being told there will 315 00:23:12.359 --> 00:23:15.000 be a burial tomorrow if you want someone to show up, show up, 316 00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:19.839 and them kind of being like okay, You're like, there's it seems like 317 00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:25.039 they were steamrolled from the beginning. But don't you guys think in today's time, 318 00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:27.759 you'd be hard pressed to be able to make arrangements for a funeral in 319 00:23:27.799 --> 00:23:33.079 one day. There's just so many different details that need to be considered and 320 00:23:33.160 --> 00:23:36.680 lots of forget that the same thing happened to Margaret Dicky, like she was 321 00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:40.279 still in the hospital when Pamela Ray was buried, even though her husband and 322 00:23:40.319 --> 00:23:42.920 her other children were able to attend. And this also would have been one 323 00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:47.559 day after Pamela Ray died, So I think they probably faced the same thing 324 00:23:47.559 --> 00:23:49.400 where they figured well in order to make this scheme work, we have to 325 00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:53.880 have another child's funeral take place on the exact same day, so they probably, 326 00:23:53.880 --> 00:23:57.359 even though the Dickies didn't think anything suspicious was going on, this was 327 00:23:57.400 --> 00:24:02.720 probably intentional just so that they could pass give off the impression that Mary Agnes 328 00:24:02.799 --> 00:24:06.240 was being buried even though the funeral was actually being held for Pamela Ray. 329 00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:10.119 And the quicker they get that casket in the ground, the harder will be 330 00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:15.400 to answer any questions. Yes, exactly, exactly, So let's try to 331 00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:19.359 make some sense of this whole situation. When Marla's did her own investigation three 332 00:24:19.400 --> 00:24:25.000 decades later, she found no records to indicate that Mary Agnes was buried at 333 00:24:25.000 --> 00:24:29.599 Saint Mary's Cemetery, but she did find a record at Benson Funeral Home that 334 00:24:29.720 --> 00:24:33.839 Mary Agnes was scheduled to be buried on that particular day. There's no indication 335 00:24:33.960 --> 00:24:37.759 where this burial was supposed to take place, but you have to wonder if 336 00:24:37.799 --> 00:24:44.039 Mary Agnes may have been buried at another location and Clara mistakenly went to the 337 00:24:44.079 --> 00:24:48.559 wrong gravesite where Pamela Ray was being buried. Marla's also found it suspicious that 338 00:24:48.640 --> 00:24:52.839 the name Gross just happened to be written on a card in Pamela Ray's funeral 339 00:24:52.920 --> 00:24:57.119 records, but this card was apparently filled out after a nurse from the hospital 340 00:24:57.440 --> 00:25:03.680 called them with information. If two separate deceased infants from the same hospital were 341 00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:07.759 scheduled to be handled by the same funeral home on the same day, then 342 00:25:07.799 --> 00:25:11.880 I could see someone haphazardly writing Mary Agnes's last name there for future reference without 343 00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:15.680 any malicious intent. So Jules, you're saying that what they did is they 344 00:25:15.720 --> 00:25:19.200 had this piece of paper and they basically were on the phone, They're filling 345 00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:23.039 out Pamla's information, and they don't have any other paper around, so they 346 00:25:23.079 --> 00:25:27.000 just write Gross in the corner, like a little note to themselves, and 347 00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:32.200 then now it's forever a linked as like the same child. It's possible. 348 00:25:32.440 --> 00:25:37.440 I mean, it seems unlikely, but it is possible. Since Marlos was 349 00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:41.359 still recovering in the hospital at that time. She seems to have no idea 350 00:25:41.400 --> 00:25:45.880 who organized this funeral and paid for it, and there's no record of who 351 00:25:45.000 --> 00:25:49.400 did so either. But I think there's a good chance that Worthington Regional Hospital 352 00:25:49.480 --> 00:25:53.599 took care of everything. Since losing a newborn baby is one of the saddest, 353 00:25:53.599 --> 00:25:56.920 most traumatic events a parent can go through, they are often not in 354 00:25:56.960 --> 00:26:02.200 the right state of mind to be doing things arranging a funeral. So therefore, 355 00:26:02.559 --> 00:26:06.759 it's not uncommon for hospitals to arrange the funeral and burial of a stillborn 356 00:26:06.880 --> 00:26:11.319 child on the parents' behalf, sometimes completely free of charge, and they will 357 00:26:11.319 --> 00:26:15.920 often be responsible for the decision making and the paperwork. Therefore, it would 358 00:26:15.960 --> 00:26:18.720 not surprise me at all at the hospital made all the arrangements for mary Agnes's 359 00:26:18.799 --> 00:26:25.039 funeral. And if you believe they were complicit in mary Agnes's disappearance and orchestrated 360 00:26:25.079 --> 00:26:30.119 a cover up, perhaps they intentionally sent Clara to Pamela Ray Dickey's funeral in 361 00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:33.559 order to give her the false impression that Mary Agnes was dead and have been 362 00:26:33.640 --> 00:26:37.640 laid to rest. But that seems like an awfully convoluted plan that could have 363 00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:41.599 easily fallen apart if Clara had bothered to ask the Dickey family why they were 364 00:26:41.599 --> 00:26:47.759 attending her granddaughter's burial. And think about this too, y'all mentioned that like 365 00:26:47.799 --> 00:26:51.240 a no point did they mentioned, And here we lay our Pamela Ray Dicky 366 00:26:51.319 --> 00:26:56.400 to to rest, and then all of a sudden, Claire's gone like, 367 00:26:56.440 --> 00:26:59.839 wait, who, Like they didn't say the baby's name the whole time. 368 00:27:00.200 --> 00:27:03.960 That is a massive risk. I do find it very very interesting though, 369 00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:08.559 that, oh, the baby that they saw doesn't even look like the baby 370 00:27:08.599 --> 00:27:12.559 that she saw in the bassinete right, It had dark hair. She's all 371 00:27:12.599 --> 00:27:15.599 the time, So we messed up on the birth certificate. I just can't 372 00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:22.480 believe that Mary Agnes died and that when you go to her grave site there 373 00:27:22.599 --> 00:27:26.920 is not a body there. There are little bones and a makeshift casket that 374 00:27:27.480 --> 00:27:30.920 was not the one that they picked out for her to be buried in, 375 00:27:30.440 --> 00:27:37.400 and those do not genetically link back to Marylis. So when Marlas went to 376 00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:42.720 Saint Mary's Cemetery after her release from the hospital and visited Mary Agnes's grave site, 377 00:27:44.119 --> 00:27:47.359 she claimed there was a fresh mount of dirt there for a burial plot, 378 00:27:47.680 --> 00:27:51.359 so of course she had no reason to believe Mary Agnes was not there. 379 00:27:51.960 --> 00:27:56.000 As far as Marlis remembers, she never saw a second burial plot or 380 00:27:56.039 --> 00:27:59.759 a mount of dirt a few feet away at the spot where the child's remains 381 00:27:59.759 --> 00:28:03.839 were were eventually exhumed. All those years later. Now, when Marlos purchased 382 00:28:03.839 --> 00:28:08.480 a headstone for Mary Agnes One year later, it was subsequently moved a few 383 00:28:08.519 --> 00:28:12.160 feet away from the burial plot, but no one knows who actually did that, 384 00:28:12.839 --> 00:28:18.160 since the cemetery record showed the Pamela Ray Dicky was supposed to be buried 385 00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:22.279 in that plot. Then I can understand why an employee would move a headstone 386 00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:26.039 containing somebody else's name away. But did they place it at that particular spot 387 00:28:26.079 --> 00:28:30.599 because they believe Mary Agnes was buried there? Or was it just moved there 388 00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:36.400 at random? And it's a complete coincidence that the remains of an entirely different 389 00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:40.440 child or beneath it. To me, when you look at this, what's 390 00:28:40.519 --> 00:28:45.400 crazy is it eventually Pamela gets a headstone there right after Mary Agnes has been 391 00:28:45.440 --> 00:28:48.680 moved? Oh yeah, yeah, Like did it get the headstone until like 392 00:28:48.680 --> 00:28:52.000 a couple of years afterwards, Like where Marlos just suddenly showed up there many 393 00:28:52.039 --> 00:28:55.799 years after the fact and say, hey, there's a headstone there for a 394 00:28:55.799 --> 00:29:00.240 completely different person. But what's wild? Did Pamela's family not come when Mary 395 00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:03.319 agnes Is headstone was sitting there? Were they the ones who maybe said, 396 00:29:03.319 --> 00:29:07.880 like, wait a minute, our babies here, or yeah, I'm guessing 397 00:29:07.880 --> 00:29:11.440 because it had been moved a couple of feet to the left. They didn't 398 00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:14.599 figure that it was over our plot. They just probably just figured that it's 399 00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:17.799 right next to ours. So that's maybe why they didn't get suspicious. But 400 00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:21.680 I'm sure they still found it weird because Mary Agnes's headstone wouldn't have been there 401 00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:26.200 when they had Pamela's funeral. Does anyone know how much gravestones cost? They're 402 00:29:26.200 --> 00:29:29.400 pretty expensive, right, I hear they are, Yeah, very expensive. 403 00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:33.319 I guess that makes sense while there was no gravestone put up initially by either 404 00:29:33.400 --> 00:29:37.079 family. Yeah, it took like a year for Marlos to raise enough money, 405 00:29:37.079 --> 00:29:41.160 and I think the Dickies didn't do it for a couple of years if 406 00:29:41.240 --> 00:29:42.440 you think about it too. I mean, she was a single mom, 407 00:29:42.440 --> 00:29:47.000 she'd just gone through divorce. Things like that. I would be really difficult 408 00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:51.599 to put the money together to have that. Nowadays, it says that the 409 00:29:51.720 --> 00:29:56.400 average headstone costs between one and three thousand dollars. One thousand and three thousand 410 00:29:56.440 --> 00:29:59.880 dollars. I thought it was more than that. I would think it was 411 00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:02.960 more than that obviously, ten grand or something. I don't know why. 412 00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:07.559 I think it depends on how complex that might just be a straight simple headstone, 413 00:30:07.640 --> 00:30:12.079 but like once you start putting pictures and shapes and symbols, Yeah, 414 00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:15.839 because you've got to get like a stonemason to do it or something right. 415 00:30:15.880 --> 00:30:18.079 I mean, I guess you can get a very basic one done with lettering, 416 00:30:18.279 --> 00:30:22.000 but I mean, I don't know what you can. I mean, 417 00:30:22.039 --> 00:30:23.880 I have no idea what technologies used for headstones. I don't know what I'm 418 00:30:23.880 --> 00:30:30.400 talking about here, but it says it says some headstones can cost around twenty 419 00:30:30.400 --> 00:30:33.799 five thousand dollars, so I guess it really can be. It's as elaborate 420 00:30:33.839 --> 00:30:36.359 as you want to make it. I suppose, so a thousand to twenty 421 00:30:36.359 --> 00:30:41.400 five thousand, yea all on the average. Wow, that's a huge range. 422 00:30:41.160 --> 00:30:45.519 Unfortunately, by the time Marlis started asking questions, I believe the cemetery 423 00:30:45.559 --> 00:30:51.200 had a completely different caretaker than whoever was working there during the nineteen sixties, 424 00:30:51.440 --> 00:30:55.400 and this guy had no answers. He even said that he had no idea 425 00:30:55.440 --> 00:30:57.960 why the headstone for Mary Agness Gross was there, since her name was not 426 00:30:59.079 --> 00:31:03.559 in the cemetery record. Since DNA testing proved that the remains which were on 427 00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:07.680 earth did not belong to Mary, Agnes or Pamela Ray Dickey. It seems 428 00:31:07.720 --> 00:31:11.160 like this caretaker personally believed that they might have belonged to a deceased child who 429 00:31:11.240 --> 00:31:15.480 was buried at that spot long before in nineteen sixty two, as records for 430 00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:21.000 that particular section of the cemetery were incomplete, and it is easier to believe 431 00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:25.759 than the idea of someone bearing a completely different infant at Mary Agnes's grave site 432 00:31:25.920 --> 00:31:29.440 in order to fake her debt. It would also mean that Pamela Ray was 433 00:31:29.480 --> 00:31:33.640 buried in her correct grave at the correct time, and the ADM five remains 434 00:31:33.640 --> 00:31:37.559 which were found a few feet away have no connection to this story. But 435 00:31:37.640 --> 00:31:41.279 if that's the case, then what actually happened to Mary Agnes? If she 436 00:31:41.359 --> 00:31:45.400 really did die following her birth, where did her remains wind up? I 437 00:31:45.480 --> 00:31:49.519 don't think she did die. I think that she was given to another family. 438 00:31:51.079 --> 00:31:55.519 For me, it's driven by probably moral purposes and not financial gain. 439 00:31:56.119 --> 00:31:59.880 But I do think that this other child who's in the spot where her headstone 440 00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:04.359 was moved to would have been from that what do they call it baby Land 441 00:32:04.519 --> 00:32:09.599 or the baby Yeah burial site, and that there were just these unnamed babies 442 00:32:09.759 --> 00:32:15.799 who were buried in these little makeshift, small cheap caskets, and that's just 443 00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:20.759 happens to be a coincidence that when you look where her headstone was, this 444 00:32:21.079 --> 00:32:25.519 unremoved remains were there from that baby land. It's apparently not uncommon when you're 445 00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:31.200 trying to exhume bodies to sometimes be horrified to discover that their additional bodies inside 446 00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:36.960 the grave or the remains or not where they're supposed to I recently did an 447 00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:39.680 episode on the Saint Louis Jane Doe, who was a child who was murdered 448 00:32:39.680 --> 00:32:43.799 back in nineteen eighty three, and when she was buried at the cemetery, 449 00:32:43.880 --> 00:32:47.160 the record keeping was just such a mess that when they tried to exhume her, 450 00:32:47.200 --> 00:32:52.039 like three decades later, they found three separate bodies where her grave was 451 00:32:52.079 --> 00:32:54.240 supposed to be, and none of them actually belonged to her, and they 452 00:32:54.240 --> 00:32:57.880 had to do a lot of legwork to find out that she was actually buried 453 00:32:57.880 --> 00:33:01.400 in a completely different section of the cemetery. So it's pretty horrifying to think 454 00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:06.160 that your loved ones could be buried in the wrong place. But apparently that 455 00:33:06.759 --> 00:33:09.000 wasn't uncommon for some of these older cemeteries, and it would not surprise me 456 00:33:09.039 --> 00:33:14.200 at all if these remains belonged to a child that have been buried there like 457 00:33:14.240 --> 00:33:19.920 a long time before Mary Agnes even died. I guess in the alternate explanation 458 00:33:20.160 --> 00:33:23.559 is that Mary Agnes is actually buried in Pamela Ray's grave, But unless the 459 00:33:23.640 --> 00:33:29.720 Dickey family consents to exhuming her remains, will probably never know. And I 460 00:33:29.759 --> 00:33:34.440 can totally understand Margaret Dickey's decision not to disturb her daughter's grave, and she 461 00:33:34.519 --> 00:33:37.319 has every right to say no. If they found out Pamela Ray was not 462 00:33:37.480 --> 00:33:42.400 buried there, as we spoke about earlier, then I cannot imagine the pain 463 00:33:42.519 --> 00:33:45.960 and devastation this would cause when you look at the big picture, I think 464 00:33:46.000 --> 00:33:51.119 you could probably write off most of these oddities as mistakes and clerical errors and 465 00:33:51.200 --> 00:33:55.200 assume that Mary Agnes's remains were lost somewhere. But the one thing which gives 466 00:33:55.279 --> 00:33:59.920 me pause is the photograph of the family with the baby, which was an 467 00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:05.559 anonymously mailed to Marlus three months after Mary Agnes's supposed death. Given that she 468 00:34:05.680 --> 00:34:08.280 only saw her daughter for a couple of seconds, I'm not sure Marlos could 469 00:34:08.280 --> 00:34:12.440 be a one hundred percent certain that the child and the photo was Mary Agnes. 470 00:34:12.960 --> 00:34:15.760 But if she wasn't, why would someone just mail her a random family 471 00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:21.159 photo with no note attached. I don't think there's a big risk that the 472 00:34:21.239 --> 00:34:25.079 baby that was buried was not Pamela Ray Dicky. I mean, remember, 473 00:34:25.360 --> 00:34:29.760 Marlos was mistreated in the hospital. She wasn't allowed to see her baby. 474 00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:32.599 She wasn't allowed to grieve or spend time with the body of her a little 475 00:34:32.599 --> 00:34:37.639 one. But the other families were, so they would have been able to 476 00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:42.039 see their child. They would have noted that tuft of blonde hair and the 477 00:34:42.159 --> 00:34:45.039 really light skin, and these kinds of things that Clara was able to document 478 00:34:45.079 --> 00:34:50.320 with the friend at the funeral home, and so I believe they would have 479 00:34:50.360 --> 00:34:52.719 likely seen her at the funeral home as well. Right, they would have 480 00:34:52.719 --> 00:34:55.199 been able to go pick the casket out, see the little body go to 481 00:34:55.239 --> 00:35:00.639 the funeral, so they followed the child's body the entire way. I don't 482 00:35:00.679 --> 00:35:06.480 see there being a high risk of that actually being Mary Agnes. So Marlous 483 00:35:06.519 --> 00:35:09.320 pushed forward the theory that perhaps it was the family themselves who sent the photo 484 00:35:09.599 --> 00:35:14.320 in order to provide assurance that Mary Agnes was alive and in a loving home, 485 00:35:14.679 --> 00:35:16.639 but that seems like a pretty risky thing to do since there was a 486 00:35:16.679 --> 00:35:22.519 possibility of them being recognized. Unless this was just sent by someone who felt 487 00:35:22.519 --> 00:35:25.320 like playing a very mean spirited prank, then the center could have been someone 488 00:35:25.360 --> 00:35:30.639 who was involved in illegally adopting out Mary Agnes to this family. They may 489 00:35:30.679 --> 00:35:34.599 have developed a guilty conscience and wanted Marlus to know that her child was not 490 00:35:34.760 --> 00:35:37.400 dead. I guess the big issue is that since she lost this photo, 491 00:35:37.719 --> 00:35:42.719 we really only have Marlus's word that it existed in the first place. Though 492 00:35:42.760 --> 00:35:45.199 I certainly don't want to accuse her or making the whole story up, but 493 00:35:45.280 --> 00:35:49.760 if the photo was real, it must be noted that Marlus was willing to 494 00:35:49.760 --> 00:35:52.719 move on with her life for the next thirty years, and it was only 495 00:35:52.760 --> 00:35:57.360 after finding someone else's headstone at what she believed was her daughter's grave site that 496 00:35:57.480 --> 00:36:00.840 she decided to start digging deeper. Even if you believe the official story is 497 00:36:00.880 --> 00:36:06.599 true and Mary Agnes really did die following her birth, that doesn't change the 498 00:36:06.639 --> 00:36:10.760 fact that this child no longer seems to have a vinal resting place exactly. 499 00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:15.920 I mean, the reality is that Marlis knew the likelihood of finding her baby 500 00:36:15.119 --> 00:36:21.039 was rare. There wasn't enough information for her at the time to be able 501 00:36:21.079 --> 00:36:22.920 to say, hey, this is a picture of my baby, right, 502 00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:27.760 this is me and my child, Like look at her father's face and my 503 00:36:27.880 --> 00:36:30.400 face and her as a baby, and here's the age progression. We didn't 504 00:36:30.440 --> 00:36:35.880 have any of that for Mary Agnes. All we have is Marlus's DNA and 505 00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:39.440 the hope that you know, genetic genealogy or something like that could help today, 506 00:36:39.920 --> 00:36:45.039 But that Marlos passed away, so there's really going to be no justice 507 00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:49.559 or any kind of idea of her saying I found and reunited with my child. 508 00:36:49.960 --> 00:36:53.039 That alone can be a very painful and upsetting process. But even in 509 00:36:53.119 --> 00:36:59.199 a rare event, I think that Mary Agnes did die at birth or shortly 510 00:36:59.239 --> 00:37:02.840 after her birth, Marlos deserved the right to be able to bury her baby, 511 00:37:04.159 --> 00:37:07.280 to know that she was safe, just like Pamela's parents said, our 512 00:37:07.320 --> 00:37:12.199 baby is safe. We have given her this place of rest. We're not 513 00:37:12.280 --> 00:37:15.440 going to disturb that. Marlos and Mary Agnes deserve the exact same kind of 514 00:37:15.480 --> 00:37:20.400 adimacy. That she's safe now and I'm not going to ever have her hurt 515 00:37:20.480 --> 00:37:24.480 again, exactly because she spent the better part of thirty years visiting that grave 516 00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:29.880 site, completely believing that her daughter's remains were there, and I cannot imagine 517 00:37:29.920 --> 00:37:31.639 what it's like to suddenly find out that, oh, there's another child in 518 00:37:31.760 --> 00:37:36.840 there, and we have no idea where your baby is. But I can 519 00:37:36.880 --> 00:37:39.519 see why Marlos would have felt that it cover up and an illegal adoption was 520 00:37:39.559 --> 00:37:44.880 the best case scenario, since that would have meant Mary Agnes was still alive 521 00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:49.599 and had been raised by another family. That's still a pretty tragic and heartbreaking 522 00:37:49.639 --> 00:37:52.800 scenario, but it's better than the alternative, which is that Mary Agnes died 523 00:37:52.880 --> 00:37:58.039 in childbirth and her remains are buried somewhere and no one has any clue how 524 00:37:58.079 --> 00:38:00.559 to find them. We kind of go back and forth on both scenarios, 525 00:38:00.599 --> 00:38:06.039 as there were enough black market adoption rings during this time period to believe that 526 00:38:06.119 --> 00:38:08.480 something like that could have happened here. But on the other hand, this 527 00:38:08.559 --> 00:38:14.519 illegal adoption would have required the collusion of one or more doctors, other hospital 528 00:38:14.559 --> 00:38:17.599 staff, and the funeral director, and would that many people have been willing 529 00:38:17.639 --> 00:38:22.280 to go along with all this. One of the biggest issues with this cover 530 00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:25.639 up theory is that it seemed to hinge on the coincidental timing of another newborn 531 00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:30.599 baby girl dying around the exact same time, which is something that probably could 532 00:38:30.639 --> 00:38:35.760 not have been anticipated. And even though Pamela ray Dickey was born a few 533 00:38:35.760 --> 00:38:39.760 hours before Mary Agnes, she did not actually pass away until the following morning, 534 00:38:40.199 --> 00:38:44.519 and that does not seem like a lot of time to concoct a plan 535 00:38:44.639 --> 00:38:47.960 to fake Mary Agnes's death. Now, could there have been a plan to 536 00:38:49.239 --> 00:38:52.039 take the baby away from the single mother when she arrived at the hospital and 537 00:38:52.199 --> 00:38:57.199 the idea was that, Okay, we know she's coming in. She doesn't 538 00:38:57.199 --> 00:39:00.719 have a partner. This baby deserve street raised by a mother enough, because 539 00:39:00.760 --> 00:39:05.719 that was critical back then. And so the plan's already in place, just 540 00:39:05.800 --> 00:39:07.239 the way the doctor said, like, you can't see her, you can't 541 00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:10.800 hold her, you can't take pictures of her. Oh, the baby's already 542 00:39:10.840 --> 00:39:15.719 been embalmed. Her body's already gone. What if the plan had just been 543 00:39:15.760 --> 00:39:20.360 Look she got there and we cremated her, or she's you know, like 544 00:39:20.559 --> 00:39:22.679 we already buried her. Like could they have been that evil? Had there 545 00:39:22.800 --> 00:39:28.400 not have been another baby that died? Did that just create an easier out 546 00:39:28.519 --> 00:39:32.079 for them when they already had the motion in place. Yeah, you're probably 547 00:39:32.159 --> 00:39:36.400 right. It seems like that would just make it pretty easy for them. 548 00:39:36.480 --> 00:39:38.760 I mean, it does seem really convoluted and a little bit strange, and 549 00:39:38.800 --> 00:39:42.800 so many people had to be involved. But I keep coming back to what 550 00:39:42.880 --> 00:39:45.280 we've all spoken about earlier, as I agree with you Ash, I think 551 00:39:45.280 --> 00:39:50.079 this was some kind of illegal adoption, but I do think that it was 552 00:39:50.199 --> 00:39:54.599 driven more by morality than it was by financial gain. Because if these people 553 00:39:54.679 --> 00:40:00.119 had these very strong religious beliefs or moral beliefs that a baby should be raised 554 00:40:00.119 --> 00:40:07.119 by two parents, then I think that this situation with Pamela ray Dickey dying, 555 00:40:07.199 --> 00:40:12.159 it just kind of provided an out and this very strange funeral situation where 556 00:40:12.159 --> 00:40:16.079 you've got two families attending, And it's just really too bad that Marlos couldn't 557 00:40:16.079 --> 00:40:20.239 have been there and we would have been able to have a first hand account 558 00:40:20.320 --> 00:40:24.480 because it sounds just so bizarre, and like you both have said, nobody 559 00:40:24.559 --> 00:40:29.880 said, you know, we're laying to rest Mary Agnes Gross or Pamela ray 560 00:40:29.960 --> 00:40:35.079 Dickey. It's just we're laying the baby to rest. It's so confusing. 561 00:40:35.719 --> 00:40:37.639 I'd love to see how this would have played out if Pamela Ray had not 562 00:40:37.800 --> 00:40:42.239 died. Would they have just held a funeral and told, like Clara and 563 00:40:42.360 --> 00:40:45.079 Judy that we're gonna have a close cass at funeral and we can't open the 564 00:40:45.159 --> 00:40:51.119 casket under any circumstances to let her see her, because like, the theory 565 00:40:51.159 --> 00:40:53.840 seems to be that they used Pamela's body in the casket and that they showed 566 00:40:53.840 --> 00:40:57.400 that to Clara. But I wonder how it would have played out if they 567 00:40:57.400 --> 00:41:00.960 wouldn't have had a baby's body in order to work with. Oh, maybe 568 00:41:00.960 --> 00:41:02.840 they would have just said it had to be a close casket because she was 569 00:41:02.880 --> 00:41:07.960 incredibly purple and it's too disturbing you can't see because they seemed to be, 570 00:41:07.440 --> 00:41:12.480 like Ashley said earlier, steamrolling her like right for a minute one it was 571 00:41:12.519 --> 00:41:15.039 like, you can't see your baby, you can't take any pictures. It 572 00:41:15.119 --> 00:41:20.239 seemed like everybody was leading her around and telling her exactly what she needed to 573 00:41:20.239 --> 00:41:23.360 be doing, and that what she wanted to do wasn't was in alignment with 574 00:41:23.400 --> 00:41:27.880 their plans, so she better get on board. Yeah, I'm sure they 575 00:41:27.880 --> 00:41:30.280 would have come up with any sort of excuse to prevent her from seeing her 576 00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:36.639 daughter, even if they hadn't had Pamela Ray. However, if Mary Agnes 577 00:41:36.719 --> 00:41:39.920 really was secretly adopted out to another family, then it's a major tragedy that 578 00:41:39.960 --> 00:41:45.559 Marla's passed away without finding out the truth or getting the opportunity to reunite with 579 00:41:45.599 --> 00:41:49.599 her daughter. If Mary Agnes is still alive today, then there's a good 580 00:41:49.679 --> 00:41:52.960 chance she has no inkling that she was raised under a false identity. Now 581 00:41:53.000 --> 00:41:57.480 I know of a number of cases in which babies have been abducted shortly after 582 00:41:57.519 --> 00:42:01.199 their birth by a kidnapper who raised them as a own child to fairly recent 583 00:42:01.239 --> 00:42:06.440 examples of this were the abductions of Carlina White and Kamaia Mobli, who were 584 00:42:06.480 --> 00:42:09.320 both stolen from the hospital shortly after they were born, but as they got 585 00:42:09.320 --> 00:42:14.199 older, they became suspicious over the fact that the person who raised them did 586 00:42:14.239 --> 00:42:17.840 not have a birth certificate or any legal documentation to prove they were their child. 587 00:42:19.440 --> 00:42:22.840 But the key difference is that those children were kidnapped by people who were 588 00:42:22.880 --> 00:42:27.360 working entirely on their own, whereas if Mary Agnes was stolen, it would 589 00:42:27.360 --> 00:42:30.159 have been done by people connected to the hospital who likely would have been able 590 00:42:30.199 --> 00:42:36.199 to provide her new family with the necessary documentation. If Mary Agnes is still 591 00:42:36.239 --> 00:42:38.719 alive, she may be well aware that she was adopted by her parents, 592 00:42:39.079 --> 00:42:45.079 but is under the mistaken impression that the adoption was legal. And what's so 593 00:42:45.079 --> 00:42:47.840 sad is that when you think about this, her parents likely wouldn't have known 594 00:42:47.920 --> 00:42:52.159 either, right, Like I mean, in these cases where they took these 595 00:42:52.239 --> 00:42:55.400 children and they gave them to these other families, I think oftentimes the other 596 00:42:55.480 --> 00:42:59.760 parents thought, like, what a blessing, we have this beautiful baby, 597 00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:04.679 and this amazing organization helped us, with this amazing doctor helped us. I 598 00:43:04.679 --> 00:43:09.079 don't think many of them knew what actually had happened behind the scenes to get 599 00:43:09.119 --> 00:43:15.559 them their dream. Maybe. What's also interesting is that in the photograph Marlos 600 00:43:15.559 --> 00:43:19.960 received, the family had two older children in addition to a newborn baby. 601 00:43:20.719 --> 00:43:23.800 Maybe this couple reached the point where they wanted another child who were unable to 602 00:43:23.840 --> 00:43:29.039 have anymore, which is why they arranged for a black market adoption, and 603 00:43:29.119 --> 00:43:31.960 since Marlos was a single mother, the people responsible thought she would be an 604 00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:37.280 ideal target. Anyway, all these theories of what a black market adoption ring 605 00:43:37.320 --> 00:43:40.960 our pure speculation, as no one ever found any evidence that this type of 606 00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:46.239 thing was taking place in Worthington during this time period. This whole story may 607 00:43:46.360 --> 00:43:51.679 very well just be a case of a terrible tragedy evolving into an unsolved mystery 608 00:43:51.960 --> 00:43:55.760 because of bureaucratic incompetence. If there is a resolution to this case, someday, 609 00:43:57.079 --> 00:44:00.840 it might occur through pure chance. You will know, anyone can upload 610 00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:06.199 their DNA to genealogy websites these days, and this is the reason the Mary 611 00:44:06.199 --> 00:44:09.960 Agnes Maroney case wound up being solved after nearly one hundred years. When Mary 612 00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:14.760 Agnes went on to have children under her new identity, one of her daughters 613 00:44:14.760 --> 00:44:17.760 decided to upload her DNA like this, and it wound up having an unexpected 614 00:44:17.800 --> 00:44:22.039 genetic match to a member of the Maroni family. So the same situation you 615 00:44:22.079 --> 00:44:27.920 could very well repeat itself and Mary Agnes Gross's case. Otherwise it may be 616 00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:31.719 difficult to conclusively solve this mystery. All that being said, if you happen 617 00:44:31.760 --> 00:44:37.000 to have any information about what happened to Mary Agnes Gross, or perhaps you 618 00:44:37.079 --> 00:44:42.559 feel you might be Mary Agnes yourself, please contact the appropriate authorities. Jules 619 00:44:42.760 --> 00:44:47.440 actually any final thoughts in this case. This case, it's fascinating to me. 620 00:44:47.519 --> 00:44:52.239 Like I said in episode one, I've always been really interested in these 621 00:44:52.320 --> 00:44:58.960 cases that involve babies being taken from hospitals, these questions of nurses helping to 622 00:44:59.239 --> 00:45:05.280 support religiously driven are morally driven companies that want to take babies from single parents 623 00:45:05.280 --> 00:45:08.519 and give them away or make sure that children aren't exposed to low income families. 624 00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:13.920 It's wild to me. One of the things in this case specifically, 625 00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:17.920 though, is that Mary Agnes would be sixty one today. And as much 626 00:45:17.960 --> 00:45:22.280 as it's kind of this interesting thing, like Robin you just covered the other 627 00:45:22.400 --> 00:45:27.000 Mary Agnes who found out her real identity, or like we found out that 628 00:45:27.480 --> 00:45:30.039 she was still alive and had grown up and then passed away right with this 629 00:45:30.199 --> 00:45:36.679 very successful life, I wonder is it equally as exciting as it is horrifying 630 00:45:36.960 --> 00:45:40.199 to be the individual who finds out this information, Because, like you said 631 00:45:40.239 --> 00:45:44.719 before, even if I know I'm adopted, if I don't know that my 632 00:45:44.760 --> 00:45:47.599 mom was desperately looking for me, that my mom had been so mistreated, 633 00:45:49.320 --> 00:45:52.440 that maybe my parents hadn't been fully transparent with me, like I think that 634 00:45:52.679 --> 00:45:59.679 oftentimes would create more trauma than it would cause any kind of joy, because 635 00:45:59.719 --> 00:46:04.679 she can't talk to Maryliss anymore. Right, marylist is deceased, she may 636 00:46:04.719 --> 00:46:07.800 not have her own parents alive to ask questions too, So I don't know. 637 00:46:07.840 --> 00:46:12.920 In certain ways, I think it would be pretty tragic for Mary Agnes 638 00:46:12.960 --> 00:46:15.000 to find out that her poor mom went through all of this and fought her 639 00:46:15.039 --> 00:46:20.639 whole life and there's kind of no justice or ability to find out more about 640 00:46:20.679 --> 00:46:25.480 that relationship. It's so heartbreaking to think that this woman could find out, 641 00:46:27.039 --> 00:46:30.199 you know, while she's in her older years, and discovered that there was 642 00:46:30.239 --> 00:46:35.880 this whole other family that she never got to experience, and now it's too 643 00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:39.079 late. So I mean, everybody deserves to have the truth of where they 644 00:46:39.119 --> 00:46:46.000 came from, but sometimes that truth comes with incredibly traumatic implications. And I 645 00:46:46.119 --> 00:46:50.360 personally think that, you know, as we've spoken about throughout, I don't 646 00:46:50.360 --> 00:46:53.119 think it was a bureaucratic error. I think that it was intentional on the 647 00:46:53.199 --> 00:46:58.159 part of multiple people at this hospital, and I think that their driving force 648 00:46:58.840 --> 00:47:04.239 was morality and that was what kept them to keep this kind of like conspiracy 649 00:47:04.360 --> 00:47:07.519 of silence. And as far as we know, there could be more people 650 00:47:07.519 --> 00:47:13.360 out there who gave birth at this hospital who you know, maybe suffered the 651 00:47:13.400 --> 00:47:15.679 same type of faith that Marlo's did where their child was taken away, but 652 00:47:15.760 --> 00:47:21.960 maybe they just didn't ask questions, and maybe there wasn't the evidence to support 653 00:47:22.039 --> 00:47:25.159 that that baby could potentially still be alive. Like I think the photograph is 654 00:47:25.159 --> 00:47:29.960 that one thing that Marlo's probably clung onto and was like, why would somebody 655 00:47:29.960 --> 00:47:31.960 just send this to me? This isn't the age of the internet. This 656 00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:37.400 isn't the time where people had access to that type of information in order to 657 00:47:37.440 --> 00:47:42.239 prank other people in the way that they do today. So I can see 658 00:47:42.280 --> 00:47:45.639 why she clung on to hope that maybe her daughter was alive, And it 659 00:47:45.719 --> 00:47:50.760 just breaks my heart that she never got to see a resolution or find out 660 00:47:50.880 --> 00:47:53.800 what happened to her daughter. There is like a bright spot in the story 661 00:47:53.840 --> 00:47:58.440 that she was able to have three boys, but I'm sure that she went 662 00:47:58.440 --> 00:48:01.639 to her grave always wondering what happened to her baby daughter, and if she's 663 00:48:01.679 --> 00:48:07.320 alive out there being loved by some other family, and what did her life 664 00:48:07.320 --> 00:48:09.119 turn out like, did she have children of her own, did she get 665 00:48:09.159 --> 00:48:14.960 married, did she go to college? All these questions that a mother would 666 00:48:15.119 --> 00:48:17.679 just love to know. The answers too, and would like to have experienced 667 00:48:17.719 --> 00:48:22.719 those things with her daughter. So my heart really goes out to Marli's for 668 00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:27.559 what she had to experience and never getting those answers. And I think, 669 00:48:27.639 --> 00:48:30.320 like Robin had said earlier, if there is ever a resolution here, it 670 00:48:30.360 --> 00:48:35.119 will be completely by chance. Yeah. When I saw the resolution in the 671 00:48:35.159 --> 00:48:39.079 Mary Agnes Maroney case, it was like bitter sweet to hear that she did 672 00:48:39.360 --> 00:48:43.440 live a good life, that even though she was stolen from her family, 673 00:48:43.480 --> 00:48:47.159 she seemed to be raised by loving parents and went on to have a successful 674 00:48:47.199 --> 00:48:51.280 career as a nurse, and she had children of her own, and everyone 675 00:48:51.320 --> 00:48:54.840 described her as a very nice person and a very loving mother. And even 676 00:48:54.880 --> 00:48:58.920 though she died before anyone find out the truth, in a way, that 677 00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:01.719 might have been good for because the trauma of finding out that she wasn't who 678 00:49:01.920 --> 00:49:06.280 she thought she was and had been stolen from her birth family would have been 679 00:49:06.280 --> 00:49:09.320 too much. And the same thing could very well happen to Mary Agnes Gross, 680 00:49:09.400 --> 00:49:13.760 who would be in her sixties if she's still alive today, and it 681 00:49:13.760 --> 00:49:16.360 would probably come as a major shock if she found out who she really was. 682 00:49:17.199 --> 00:49:21.320 But of course, even though we have a resolution in the Mary Agnes 683 00:49:21.400 --> 00:49:25.880 Maroney case is still a major tragedy that her parents suffered this terrible trauma and 684 00:49:27.000 --> 00:49:30.039 died without finding out the truth about what happened to their missing daughter, and 685 00:49:30.159 --> 00:49:35.719 the same thing happened to Marlous Gross, but at the same type of the 686 00:49:35.719 --> 00:49:38.559 events play out the same way. There could be a possibility that perhaps some 687 00:49:38.639 --> 00:49:45.440 of Marlus's other sons have uploaded their DNA into a genetic genealogy database, and 688 00:49:45.159 --> 00:49:50.639 maybe if Mary Agnes is with another family, someone from there has uploaded their 689 00:49:50.760 --> 00:49:54.000 DNA, maybe Mary Agnes herself has, and one of these days they'll just 690 00:49:54.039 --> 00:49:58.159 suddenly have a genetic match and they'll be able to find out the truth. 691 00:49:58.280 --> 00:50:01.639 I mean, for all we know, maybe Mary Gross has already passed away, 692 00:50:01.679 --> 00:50:06.559 but it would still be nice if they found out what actually happened to 693 00:50:06.599 --> 00:50:08.840 her. But yeah, this is just such a weird story. And I 694 00:50:08.920 --> 00:50:13.400 have heard a lot of child abduction cases, but this is one of the 695 00:50:13.440 --> 00:50:15.880 only ones that I know of where they've someone has gone to the trouble of 696 00:50:15.960 --> 00:50:21.199 faking a newborn baby's death in order to steal her from her mother. And 697 00:50:21.239 --> 00:50:24.719 if that's actually what happened and that's a major travesty, and it put this 698 00:50:24.760 --> 00:50:29.599 poor woman through a bunch of unnecessary trauma. And while it's good that she 699 00:50:29.679 --> 00:50:31.880 got to live a good life in the long run with the other children of 700 00:50:31.920 --> 00:50:35.800 her own, it's just so sad that she never got to find out the 701 00:50:35.800 --> 00:50:39.280 truth about what happened. And if you do find out that Mary Agnes Gross 702 00:50:39.440 --> 00:50:44.840 is still alive somewhere and we can finally conclusively solve this mystery, then that 703 00:50:44.880 --> 00:50:49.119 will definitely be a good thing. Maybe lightning will strike twice for the second 704 00:50:49.159 --> 00:50:52.440 Mary Agnes Robin, do you want to tell us a little bit about the 705 00:50:52.440 --> 00:50:55.440 Trail Went Cold Patreon? Yes, The Trail Cold Patreon has been around for 706 00:50:55.519 --> 00:51:00.519 three years now, and we offer the standard bonus is like early ad free 707 00:51:00.519 --> 00:51:06.199 episodes, and I also send out stickers and sign thank you cards to anyone 708 00:51:06.199 --> 00:51:08.800 who signs up with us on Patreon. If you join our five dollar tier 709 00:51:09.119 --> 00:51:15.559 Tier two, we also offer monthly bonus episodes in which I talk about cases 710 00:51:15.599 --> 00:51:19.480 which are not featured on the Trail Went Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive 711 00:51:19.519 --> 00:51:22.159 to Patreon. And if you join our highest tier tier three, the ten 712 00:51:22.199 --> 00:51:27.920 dollar tier, one of the features we offer is a audio commentary track over 713 00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:31.800 classic episodes of UNSAWD Mysteries, where you can download an audio file and then 714 00:51:32.199 --> 00:51:37.400 boot up the original UNSAWD Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or YouTube and play it 715 00:51:37.440 --> 00:51:42.320 with my audio commentary playing in the background, where I just provide trivia and 716 00:51:42.400 --> 00:51:46.079 factoids about the cases featured in this episode. And incidentally, the very first 717 00:51:46.079 --> 00:51:51.280 episode that I did a commentary track over was the episode featuring this case. 718 00:51:51.400 --> 00:51:54.440 So if you want to download a commentary track in which I make more smartass 719 00:51:54.440 --> 00:51:59.639 remarks about Juwel kaylor than be sure to join Tier three. So I want 720 00:51:59.639 --> 00:52:01.440 to let you you know a little bit about the Jewels and Ashley Patreon, 721 00:52:01.599 --> 00:52:06.639 so there's early ad free episodes of The Path Went Chili. We've got our 722 00:52:06.679 --> 00:52:09.039 Path Went Chili minis, which are always over an hour, so they're not 723 00:52:09.239 --> 00:52:13.199 very many, but they're just too short to turn into a series, and 724 00:52:13.280 --> 00:52:16.159 we're really enjoying doing those, so we hope you'll check out those Patreons will 725 00:52:16.199 --> 00:52:20.280 link them in the show notes. So I want to thank you all for 726 00:52:20.400 --> 00:52:22.679 listening, and any chance you have to share us on social media with a 727 00:52:22.760 --> 00:52:27.320 friend or to rate and review is greatly appreciate it. You can email us 728 00:52:27.360 --> 00:52:30.679 at the path went Chili at gmail dot com. You can reach us on 729 00:52:30.719 --> 00:52:34.480 Twitter at the Pathwin. So until next time, be sure to bundle up 730 00:52:34.559 --> 00:52:38.079 because cold trails and chili pass call for warm clothing. Music by Paul Rich 731 00:52:38.199 --> 00:52:40.280 from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy