WEBVTT 1 00:00:26.879 --> 00:00:30.199 Hello, everyone, This is Martin Willis. I'm your host and welcome to 2 00:00:30.239 --> 00:00:36.399 Podcast UFO. My guest this evening is Ray Schamansky and he is a right 3 00:00:36.679 --> 00:00:41.679 Patterson Air Force Base insider. He was there for nearly forty years, and 4 00:00:41.799 --> 00:00:46.520 we're gonna be talking to him about all kinds of interesting things and also his 5 00:00:46.640 --> 00:00:52.000 books where he reveals a lot of this information. Also he looks into some 6 00:00:52.079 --> 00:00:59.119 cases such as the Travis Walton incident, Randelshom Forrest, and let's see the 7 00:00:59.200 --> 00:01:02.799 other one is into an Exeter, So he'll be coming up in just a 8 00:01:02.880 --> 00:01:07.040 minute. I want to thank everyone that supports the show, and anyone can 9 00:01:07.120 --> 00:01:11.760 do that over at Patreon. We have a Facebook page, lots of people 10 00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:15.200 on there. You can go over there at podcast UFO. That link and 11 00:01:15.280 --> 00:01:19.920 other links are on a website. Speaking of that, we also have a 12 00:01:19.959 --> 00:01:25.079 blog by Charles Lear this week. It's a really very long, intense blog 13 00:01:25.400 --> 00:01:30.120 about UFOs and balloons. Go check that out. And that's about it for 14 00:01:30.200 --> 00:01:34.400 me and now my guests, and we were actually going to meet out at 15 00:01:34.400 --> 00:01:42.200 Contact in the Desert, which of course is rescheduled for I believe they're going 16 00:01:42.280 --> 00:01:49.120 right into twenty twenty one. They're rescheduling it for that time. Same for 17 00:01:49.879 --> 00:01:53.599 all of a lot of the UFO conferences. I know that I've spoke with 18 00:01:53.640 --> 00:02:00.239 Alejandro Rojas the other day and the International UFO Congress is the first week I 19 00:02:00.280 --> 00:02:05.760 believe of September, and they at this point they haven't canceled that yet. 20 00:02:05.760 --> 00:02:08.560 It's still it's still on. Um. You know, they will cancel it 21 00:02:08.560 --> 00:02:12.879 if they have to, but as of right now, that is still schedule. 22 00:02:12.919 --> 00:02:19.080 We see what the next several months spring. So tonight, our guest, 23 00:02:19.199 --> 00:02:23.039 as I said, is uh, Ray, I'm gon try one more 24 00:02:23.039 --> 00:02:25.840 time, Shizman. There you are, Ray, Welcome to the show. 25 00:02:25.919 --> 00:02:30.159 Ray, Hey, thanks for having me, Mike. I don't worry. 26 00:02:30.479 --> 00:02:36.000 People have struggled over that name for centuries, centuries, even in Poland. 27 00:02:36.080 --> 00:02:39.960 Right, absolutely, yeah, Ray. Before we get well, let's let's 28 00:02:39.960 --> 00:02:43.919 talk a little bit about your background. Could you please first phill Us in 29 00:02:44.080 --> 00:02:50.319 with your background, and then we'll go from there. Born and raised in 30 00:02:50.800 --> 00:02:57.080 Detroit and went to University of Detroit, got bachelor's of Science and Electrical and 31 00:02:57.120 --> 00:03:01.960 Electronics engineering. Went to work for the Air Force in January of nineteen seventy 32 00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:08.360 three as a cooperative education student and I worked there until my retirement the last 33 00:03:08.400 --> 00:03:15.560 day of September in two eleven. So actually my career spanned thirty eight years 34 00:03:15.560 --> 00:03:21.360 and nine months and five separate decades. Oh wow, And there were you 35 00:03:21.400 --> 00:03:28.439 there right the right Patterson the entire time absolutely I worked. I was actually 36 00:03:28.439 --> 00:03:34.719 assigned to the laboratory Air Force Research Labs. Now it was their predecessors before 37 00:03:34.759 --> 00:03:38.360 they became a Farrell and Congress wanted to row all the labs into one, 38 00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:44.439 but I worked for the predecessor called Avionics Lab, which eventually became the centers 39 00:03:44.479 --> 00:03:51.400 direct to it. And I had spent time on loan to different organizations. 40 00:03:51.400 --> 00:03:55.759 So even though I was there at AA Farrell and my billet as it were, 41 00:03:57.240 --> 00:04:01.719 was at Wright Patterson. At one time, I spent ten years working 42 00:04:01.840 --> 00:04:06.560 for a program for the Undersecretary of Defense for Research and Engineering out of the 43 00:04:06.560 --> 00:04:11.879 Pentagon, and I'd fly there monthly to do reviews. Again, all my 44 00:04:12.000 --> 00:04:15.759 programs and all my money were being massaged and managed at Wright Patterson. And 45 00:04:15.800 --> 00:04:20.879 then I did a two year stint as the wellness director for White Patterson Air 46 00:04:20.879 --> 00:04:25.600 Force Base, and I was responsible for the health and wellness of twelve thousand 47 00:04:25.920 --> 00:04:30.600 civilian employees, and then for three years I was the Air Farrell Wellness Director, 48 00:04:30.920 --> 00:04:38.079 so I was loaned out executive loan program on a number of occasions, 49 00:04:38.079 --> 00:04:44.519 but station at Wright Patterson that entire time. Wow, and your interests are 50 00:04:45.279 --> 00:04:48.959 I listened to? I just tried. I don't have your book. First 51 00:04:48.959 --> 00:04:53.560 of all, you have two books, and they each start out with a 52 00:04:53.680 --> 00:04:57.839 similar title. Right, is that right? Yes? Originally it was called 53 00:04:58.279 --> 00:05:01.639 a series was called fifth These Shades of Grays, which was a play on 54 00:05:01.720 --> 00:05:06.439 words. And then I wanted to make the titles a little bit more in 55 00:05:06.480 --> 00:05:11.839 line with the actual content, so just within the last several months, I 56 00:05:12.360 --> 00:05:17.759 changed the title to Alien Shades of Grays. But the first book is subtitled 57 00:05:18.279 --> 00:05:26.079 Evidence of Extraterrestrial Visitation to write Patterson Air Force Base and beyond, and we 58 00:05:26.120 --> 00:05:29.800 can get into a description of that later than The following book, which which 59 00:05:29.920 --> 00:05:34.360 released about a year ago this time, is Victorious Secret Truth, and it's 60 00:05:34.399 --> 00:05:42.600 a story of three generations of alien contact. Wow. End up? How 61 00:05:42.639 --> 00:05:49.079 long have you had an interest in this topic? Actually, my very first 62 00:05:49.079 --> 00:05:54.399 week reporting the right Patterson Air Force Base as a co op student. Now 63 00:05:54.399 --> 00:05:58.079 you can imagine I'm nineteen years old, I'm kind of scientifically focused, and 64 00:05:58.040 --> 00:06:01.879 I'm assigned to an office and they assigned me a mentor. He's a mid 65 00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:08.360 level civilian, so this is he's probably a GS eleven. And there were 66 00:06:08.560 --> 00:06:15.639 three buildings. They composed one large building, but there were two story executive 67 00:06:15.680 --> 00:06:19.160 offices, and in the middle was a huge hangar you know, informally with 68 00:06:19.199 --> 00:06:24.079 airplanes and people, you know, doing that sort of thing. And my 69 00:06:24.120 --> 00:06:28.800 mentor says to me, this is January nineteen seventy three. He said, 70 00:06:28.839 --> 00:06:30.879 we're going to cut through that empty building and we're going to buy you a 71 00:06:30.959 --> 00:06:34.800 candy bar, kind of a welcoming gift. So we stepped down into this 72 00:06:34.879 --> 00:06:40.079 hangar and he turns to me and he kind of casually says, have you 73 00:06:40.120 --> 00:06:46.079 heard about our aliens? Now, you know, the two story buildings that 74 00:06:46.199 --> 00:06:49.639 were the bookends of the large complex. We're kind of nice, you know, 75 00:06:49.720 --> 00:06:54.720 for government buildings. But we step into this dark, unused hangar and 76 00:06:54.839 --> 00:06:58.959 as he's huge, you know, super thick curtains on him and it's very 77 00:06:59.079 --> 00:07:01.240 dark, and this guy that I only know for a week turns to me 78 00:07:01.279 --> 00:07:06.439 and says, have you heard about our aliens? So I'm kind of like 79 00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:11.639 whoa. So it's a two hundred foot long walk, you know, to 80 00:07:11.720 --> 00:07:15.160 get to the other side. And um, he started telling me about this 81 00:07:15.199 --> 00:07:18.720 crash out west and how it had a machine that had occupants and they were 82 00:07:18.720 --> 00:07:25.000 brought here to write Patterson. And you know, that's where the conversation left 83 00:07:25.040 --> 00:07:29.040 by the time we got into the Greasy Spoon, which is where we got 84 00:07:29.040 --> 00:07:33.199 the candy bar, and that was like my baptism into write Patterson's connection to 85 00:07:33.360 --> 00:07:38.040 this whole alien thing. So it's been a long time ago, now, 86 00:07:38.480 --> 00:07:42.600 was he was? He? Was he really like just trying to bust your 87 00:07:42.680 --> 00:07:46.519 chops, you know, because you were new or or what did you get? 88 00:07:46.879 --> 00:07:48.560 What were your feelings right after the bat Did you think this guy is 89 00:07:48.600 --> 00:07:54.399 just you know, um, you know, just kind of trying to break 90 00:07:54.439 --> 00:07:57.879 me in? And you know, uh, hayes me a little bit because 91 00:07:57.920 --> 00:08:01.360 I just started, uh, you know, what were your thoughts? I 92 00:08:01.439 --> 00:08:03.399 think it a little bit of that. But at the time, you know, 93 00:08:03.480 --> 00:08:09.680 this was nineteen seventy three. Project blue Book had been there for twenty 94 00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:13.959 two years, along with its predecessors Sign and Grudge, So the history of 95 00:08:15.040 --> 00:08:18.800 Right Patterson hosting Project blue Book was well known. There was the TV show. 96 00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:24.079 A lot of focus was put on that project by the local press, 97 00:08:24.319 --> 00:08:26.120 the media, television. You know, there were crews always trying to come 98 00:08:26.160 --> 00:08:31.120 out to do you know, little bits for the news. So it's very 99 00:08:31.160 --> 00:08:33.600 well known that connection was well, very very well known. So I think 100 00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:37.039 it was kind of something that they were proud of that, you know, 101 00:08:37.080 --> 00:08:41.720 it had international fame. So that story, you know, that connection helps 102 00:08:41.960 --> 00:08:48.159 elevate everybody. And then again I think it was a topic that many of 103 00:08:48.159 --> 00:08:52.120 them were interested in. Al was an intellectual and in fact, you know 104 00:08:52.240 --> 00:08:58.879 there's gus is like grade one to grade fifteen. If you get congressional approval, 105 00:09:00.600 --> 00:09:03.679 you get to become a civilian at the flag rank, so you're the 106 00:09:03.720 --> 00:09:09.120 equivalent of a general or an admiral. Believe it or not. Al went 107 00:09:09.159 --> 00:09:13.360 on to become a member of the SCS. So when he retired, and 108 00:09:13.360 --> 00:09:16.000 he had worked for many years at the level, he was actually the level 109 00:09:16.000 --> 00:09:20.399 of the flag officer. So this was not a dummy guy that was telling 110 00:09:20.440 --> 00:09:26.200 me about this. So I didn't know he was going to eventually attain the 111 00:09:26.279 --> 00:09:31.080 highest rank that you could ever attain as a civilian. But it kind of 112 00:09:31.080 --> 00:09:33.279 tells me in retrospect that you know, the guy was thinking about it. 113 00:09:33.320 --> 00:09:35.879 He was an intellectual and you know, those are the kinds of things that 114 00:09:35.919 --> 00:09:41.600 they talked about around the water cooler. Yeah. Now, if there were, 115 00:09:41.639 --> 00:09:48.039 in fact, you know, aliens there, first of all, that 116 00:09:48.039 --> 00:09:54.120 would be something that would be surely classified. And this is what I'm just 117 00:09:54.159 --> 00:09:56.399 getting at. You know, when you talk about our conversation like this, 118 00:09:56.720 --> 00:09:58.679 That's why I asked you, you know, was he busting your chops, 119 00:09:58.679 --> 00:10:03.440 you know, off the bat. But this, this type of information would 120 00:10:03.440 --> 00:10:09.200 definitely be classified and you know, would not be able to be you know, 121 00:10:09.240 --> 00:10:11.759 he would not be able to talk to you about it if if he 122 00:10:11.840 --> 00:10:16.840 had was told this is classified top secret, you can't you know, discuss 123 00:10:16.960 --> 00:10:22.480 this. So so what did you think? Well, I think now that 124 00:10:22.600 --> 00:10:26.200 he was a mid level engineer. He and a lot of the guys that 125 00:10:26.279 --> 00:10:28.720 I eventually wound up talking to, like Doug and Accounting and all those guys 126 00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:31.919 that you know, he regularly lunched with, and they kind of drew me 127 00:10:31.960 --> 00:10:37.039 in under their wing. I think it was a topic that they were interested 128 00:10:37.039 --> 00:10:41.320 in. The connection was very very well known. I don't think any of 129 00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:43.559 them were ever read into the program. Obviously, because that was not the 130 00:10:43.600 --> 00:10:48.039 type of office. We were more of a you know, management kind of 131 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:52.600 computer support office that very first session that I was there. So I'm thinking 132 00:10:52.639 --> 00:10:56.799 that those guys were very interested. They were soaking up all the news. 133 00:10:56.799 --> 00:11:01.120 They were probably reading the books and that sort of thing. But I think 134 00:11:01.240 --> 00:11:05.240 very few people on the base would have actually had hands on knowledge of what 135 00:11:05.320 --> 00:11:11.240 was really going on there right right, And I'm sure the topic Roswell didn't 136 00:11:11.279 --> 00:11:15.559 come up as far as you know, I mean, a crash out west 137 00:11:15.919 --> 00:11:18.120 something like that, I understand, But you know that that topic was kind 138 00:11:18.120 --> 00:11:22.799 of I don't want to I want to say more or less obscured for many 139 00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:28.320 years until Stan Freedman back in nineteen seventy eight, I think it was, 140 00:11:28.320 --> 00:11:31.919 was it seventy eight, I can't really remember when it was. Yeah, 141 00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:35.679 I think he got Marcel to talk in seventy eight. Yeah, But I 142 00:11:35.679 --> 00:11:39.679 mean in between, you know, Roswell kind of faded away real quickly, 143 00:11:39.360 --> 00:11:43.159 right after the incident itself, when it was passed off as you know, 144 00:11:43.159 --> 00:11:46.519 a weather balloon, and just people kind of moved on from there. Of 145 00:11:46.519 --> 00:11:52.039 course, there were a lot of UFO sightings right after that, but still 146 00:11:52.200 --> 00:11:56.559 that was kind of obscure for many years. Did the word Roswell ever come 147 00:11:56.639 --> 00:12:01.480 up before nineteen seventy eight that you're aware of, you know, I would 148 00:12:01.519 --> 00:12:07.039 say no. And the way to check is buy a copy of my book 149 00:12:07.559 --> 00:12:11.000 and read it, and you'll find out that. I don't believe I mentioned 150 00:12:11.080 --> 00:12:15.759 Roswell in the book. I believe the quote that I remember is is he 151 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:18.759 said that there was a crash out west. Now here's what I did. 152 00:12:18.399 --> 00:12:24.240 You know, you know, there are moments in your life where like you 153 00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:26.919 almost get into an auto wreck, or you know, the birth of your 154 00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:31.320 first child or whatever it is. There's moments that you don't really forget, 155 00:12:31.720 --> 00:12:35.080 and you may be a little hazy on some of the details, but the 156 00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:39.559 core story is going to stay with you. So I found Al and communicated 157 00:12:39.559 --> 00:12:43.960 with him. He suggested I write him a letter, and I did, 158 00:12:43.360 --> 00:12:48.240 and what I wrote him in the letter was my recollection of our conversation that 159 00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:54.720 day. And Al got the letter and I said, all, I'm thinking 160 00:12:54.720 --> 00:12:56.039 I'm going to write a book, but and I want to put this in 161 00:12:56.120 --> 00:13:03.399 there so you are free to a just anything you want, anything, and 162 00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:07.679 if it's reasonable, if your recollection is strong, I'm going to make the 163 00:13:07.799 --> 00:13:13.440 changes. Well, he sent what I sent him, He sent my letter 164 00:13:13.480 --> 00:13:16.440 back to him, and he wrote a thing and he says, uh, 165 00:13:16.879 --> 00:13:22.320 you know, Ray, as you know, I retired as a flag level 166 00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:28.320 civilian and I can't allow you to use my last name. And any changes 167 00:13:28.440 --> 00:13:33.159 are in the text. Thank you for for you know, remembering. And 168 00:13:33.200 --> 00:13:37.200 I went to the sheets of paper. I think it was maybe three three 169 00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:41.440 and a half. And the only place he made a change is he wrote 170 00:13:41.480 --> 00:13:45.519 in there and I said something about the aliens and their records, and he 171 00:13:45.559 --> 00:13:50.519 said, I can neither confirm nor deny that there were aliens. That's the 172 00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:56.399 only substantial change he made to the entire dialogue. So, and he's a 173 00:13:56.399 --> 00:14:00.240 pretty thorough guy. He had to be. He was a member were the 174 00:14:00.279 --> 00:14:03.080 Senior Executive Service. He was. He was you know, those guys make 175 00:14:03.200 --> 00:14:07.480 big decisions all the time. So I think he gave a careful consideration and 176 00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:11.360 his recollection was as good as mine. And he only made that change. 177 00:14:11.759 --> 00:14:16.759 And so you know, I have that as my physical evidence of my communication 178 00:14:16.840 --> 00:14:20.960 with him on that topic. But again, there was never a mention of 179 00:14:20.039 --> 00:14:24.600 Roswell. It was like there was a crash out West and that's the way 180 00:14:24.639 --> 00:14:26.960 I wrote it up. Yeah, yeah, and that's that's good. That's 181 00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:33.720 good to hear. Um. So when you worked there and you, um, 182 00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:39.000 did you just go do you remember, like what type of impact that 183 00:14:39.080 --> 00:14:43.519 had on you? Was this something you just kind of tabled and then uh, 184 00:14:43.720 --> 00:14:48.240 maybe discussed it with people later on? How did that go? Well? 185 00:14:48.360 --> 00:14:52.600 I initially wanted to check out al because all it always I want to 186 00:14:52.600 --> 00:14:56.120 say, a loose cannon. You know, he was his own guy, 187 00:14:56.200 --> 00:15:00.279 and you know, he didn't he didn't dress the part like a lot of 188 00:15:00.320 --> 00:15:03.159 people did. He did crazy things like he showed up every day with a 189 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:07.559 briefcase and the only thing he had in his briefcase was a sandwich for lunch. 190 00:15:07.120 --> 00:15:11.639 But he wanted to look the part, and everyone went laughing. There 191 00:15:11.679 --> 00:15:15.360 goes out with his briefcase. And so I found out, you know who 192 00:15:15.519 --> 00:15:16.480 was lunching with him once in a while. He didn't invite me in, 193 00:15:16.559 --> 00:15:20.879 And we go to a place called the Airway in across from the base, 194 00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:24.399 and there was Doug and I can see another guy with dark hair whose name 195 00:15:24.440 --> 00:15:26.960 I can't remember. I know what city lives in, but there'd be a 196 00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:31.320 handful of folks and when Al wasn't there, I would drop by and go, 197 00:15:31.399 --> 00:15:33.600 hey, Doug, like, you know, Al told me this thing 198 00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:37.000 about this cross in UFOs, and Doug would go yeah, like of course, 199 00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:41.840 And I never got any pushback on it. I got like everybody had 200 00:15:41.840 --> 00:15:50.879 this nice easy knowledge that this was part of base history and they just accepted 201 00:15:50.919 --> 00:15:52.840 it. Or they might go, hey, you know, there's going to 202 00:15:52.879 --> 00:15:56.240 be a new documentary on or a TV show, or go, you know, 203 00:15:56.279 --> 00:15:58.759 I've read this book or you know, lay might chair books amongst them. 204 00:15:58.759 --> 00:16:03.240 So the handful of people I asked at least then, you know, 205 00:16:03.320 --> 00:16:07.000 satisfied me that there was something to it. But you've got to imagine, 206 00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:10.639 you know, I'm in college. I'm electrical engineering. This is not a 207 00:16:10.679 --> 00:16:15.559 pushover, you know, English major course courses. So it really never became 208 00:16:15.559 --> 00:16:18.639 a focus. And I might ask, you know, I got involved in 209 00:16:18.679 --> 00:16:22.200 sports on a base softball and basketball and volleyball and that sort of thing. 210 00:16:22.200 --> 00:16:26.000 I might ask my teammates occasionally, hey, you know, what's this you 211 00:16:26.039 --> 00:16:29.559 know UFO thing. And then of course, you know, in the late 212 00:16:29.639 --> 00:16:34.440 seventies Stanton's book Hit the Fan, and you know, by the early eighties, 213 00:16:34.799 --> 00:16:37.799 they was like, look at sea. You know, we told you, 214 00:16:37.840 --> 00:16:45.799 But again it really didn't become all consuming for me until the phoenix lights. 215 00:16:45.639 --> 00:16:49.159 Oh okay, before we get into that. Um, I always I 216 00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:52.720 always forget that we we do have a lot of new listeners to the show. 217 00:16:52.720 --> 00:16:59.600 I get enough email Tom to know that for sure. So people are 218 00:16:59.639 --> 00:17:10.519 going to may wonder what is the connection between Roswell and right Path. Okay, 219 00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:15.920 the connection definitely. Well, the connection is is that Jesse Marcel was 220 00:17:15.960 --> 00:17:23.440 a major and he was an intelligence officer at Roswell, and they sent him 221 00:17:23.799 --> 00:17:33.839 and another intelligence officer with the rancher mac Brasil and they sent those two up 222 00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:40.480 with Brazil to retrieve the crashed material whatever it was. They brought it back, 223 00:17:40.920 --> 00:17:45.119 they looked at it. Colonel Blanchard was the commander of Roswell and then 224 00:17:45.440 --> 00:17:49.680 he told Walter Houte, who was a public information officer, we've got a 225 00:17:49.720 --> 00:17:56.720 crash flying disc. And Walter Houte then gave it to the Roswell newspaper that 226 00:17:56.839 --> 00:18:00.359 the Air Force had this UFO. Well, the next day they changed their 227 00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:04.599 story and they said it was just a crashed weather balloon. Now fast forward 228 00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:11.480 twenty nine years later and Stanford Friedman gets connected through friends of Jesse. Marcel's 229 00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:19.160 with Jesse interviews and me and Jesse says things like, it wasn't this planet, 230 00:18:19.240 --> 00:18:23.200 we tested it, It was no material that I know, and it 231 00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:30.200 was flown to Wright Patterson Air Force Base for inspection. Then you had the 232 00:18:30.279 --> 00:18:33.759 chief of staff, who was a general up at the eighth Army Air Corps 233 00:18:33.799 --> 00:18:40.160 now that was in Fort Worth, and he was in the office into which 234 00:18:40.240 --> 00:18:48.240 Jesse flew those materials right after the discovery. And this general said that material 235 00:18:48.920 --> 00:18:52.599 was flown on a plane that General McMullen O. McMullen, which chief of 236 00:18:52.599 --> 00:18:57.880 staff somewhat to write pat somewhat mullen McMullan was done with that his private plane 237 00:18:57.880 --> 00:19:02.599 took the rest of it to write. So what do we know? That's 238 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:07.559 immutable? Whatever the material was, it went to write Patterson. And the 239 00:19:07.640 --> 00:19:11.319 reason it did is the Materials Directorate was at Wright Patterson Air Force Space. 240 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:18.240 That was the world class group of scientists who knew anything and everything about aerospace 241 00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:23.480 materials. That laboratory had been set up in nineteen seventeen at Wright Patterson, 242 00:19:23.799 --> 00:19:29.400 so by nineteen forty seven they had thirty years of experience. It would have 243 00:19:29.480 --> 00:19:32.920 been the place to go. So the guys who handled the material, the 244 00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:37.240 guys who are responsible for getting it transported, all said it went to write 245 00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:41.839 Patterson Air Force Space, I think. And that's the connection. Yeah, 246 00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:45.920 you know one thing that I just thought of, only thought of just now. 247 00:19:45.319 --> 00:19:52.799 But you know, when they published in the paper that the Army Air 248 00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:59.000 Force had captured a flying disc. But when they talk about when anyone at 249 00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:03.519 all talks about the wreckage, it certainly doesn't sound like a disc at all. 250 00:20:03.559 --> 00:20:06.960 It sounds like fields of debris. Um. You know, maybe they're 251 00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:11.000 assuming that it was a flying disc that burst into this field of debris, 252 00:20:11.079 --> 00:20:15.319 But I don't know. I just thought of that because, um, that's 253 00:20:15.359 --> 00:20:19.039 all you ever hear about the crash site. It was just like, um, 254 00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:23.880 you know, a hundred yards of or more of debris just scattered around. 255 00:20:25.400 --> 00:20:27.000 Um. They never, as far as I know, they never really 256 00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:36.480 captured any disc like object out of that debris. I hear you. And 257 00:20:37.279 --> 00:20:42.359 the debris was scattered about a half mile long, oh, half mile and 258 00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:48.400 a half mile and and and and you know, a thousand feet wide. 259 00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:55.920 And the witnesses, Marcel said it didn't look like an object. It hit 260 00:20:55.960 --> 00:21:02.400 the ground been dragged and went into pieces. Looked like something exploded in the 261 00:21:02.440 --> 00:21:06.400 air and then fluttered down, because that's just the way the debris was scattered. 262 00:21:07.160 --> 00:21:08.960 On the other side, there are witnesses who say, well, there 263 00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:14.119 were sticks and whatever. Then you flip flop again. The guys who are 264 00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:19.079 supposedly hand on witnesses, like Marcel said, we couldn't tear it, we 265 00:21:19.079 --> 00:21:22.920 couldn't bend it, we couldn't burn it. We hit it with a sledgehammer, 266 00:21:22.279 --> 00:21:26.599 we crushed it. It came back like today's knitt and all material would 267 00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:33.200 do. So it exhibited properties that we're not consistent with the weather balloon explanation. 268 00:21:33.640 --> 00:21:41.279 So you've got you've got data on both sides that doesn't die, but 269 00:21:41.400 --> 00:21:45.680 you also have enough data on the side of a crashed object that makes it 270 00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:52.119 possible. Also, there was a story floating around and you know, you 271 00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:55.680 don't hear this all the time as part of the story, but something like 272 00:21:55.759 --> 00:22:00.559 sixty miles away or something like that was another object that if possibly was related 273 00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:06.200 to this, that was found, like the size of a Volkswagen bog. 274 00:22:07.240 --> 00:22:11.400 These are just things that I remember, and the bodies supposedly were there, 275 00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:18.240 and you know, I believe Stanton Freedman thought that that could have meant that 276 00:22:18.319 --> 00:22:23.960 it was a mid air crash between two vehicles. I believe those were uh 277 00:22:25.000 --> 00:22:29.079 you know, on paraphrasing, but something that he believed that was about. 278 00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:33.759 It's confusing, you know. As the years go by, Um, you 279 00:22:33.799 --> 00:22:40.319 know, Roswell can turn more into a myth than anything else. You know, 280 00:22:40.359 --> 00:22:45.160 as far as the story goes. Who knows what it will become eventually. 281 00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:48.079 But as of right now, there's a lot of a lot of stories. 282 00:22:48.119 --> 00:22:52.400 It's really hard to figure out what the facts are in this case, 283 00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:56.279 especially since you know, the witnesses are long gone, or almost all of 284 00:22:56.279 --> 00:22:57.640 them are. There's one or two living at this point, I believe. 285 00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:07.640 Interesting. Yeah, have you ever actually gone to that area? I looked 286 00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:12.480 into that. Yeah, um, I understand with my metal with my with 287 00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:18.359 my metal detector. Oh you actually went to the site. Sure? Oh 288 00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:21.680 wow, yeah, I know a lot of people have. Um, how 289 00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:25.519 did they is that marked off? How do you how do you find it? 290 00:23:25.640 --> 00:23:37.119 Is it just through a GPS or something? The Sci Fi Channel has 291 00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:41.720 put a marble marker on top of the little n bill there. Yes, 292 00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:45.400 they did a program and then they planted the marker. The problem is is 293 00:23:45.480 --> 00:23:49.640 that, um, in order to get to the site, which is owned 294 00:23:49.640 --> 00:23:56.240 by like the National Park Service, you have to go through private property and 295 00:23:56.359 --> 00:24:00.759 unless you get permission, UM, the ranchers ten to shoot you because if 296 00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:04.720 they have their cattle in that field, you have to go through the field. 297 00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:07.920 And you know, people have left the gates open and the cattle have 298 00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:12.440 gone down the road. So it's really hairy. It's a hairy place to 299 00:24:12.559 --> 00:24:17.119 get to. And if you go through the National Park or you know, 300 00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:21.559 whoever owns it for the government, it's like a forty mile drive over the 301 00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:26.200 roughest roads ever, so it's not easy to find. Yeah, And so 302 00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:30.680 this is I would assume that people are going to try to get there a 303 00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:34.279 lot over the years. But so you have to, like, if someone 304 00:24:34.359 --> 00:24:40.160 plans to actually go to that site for your instance, for yourself, what 305 00:24:40.200 --> 00:24:41.680 did you have to do. We've only got about a minute before we go 306 00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:49.720 into break no comment. Well, I had to stretch it out. Okay, 307 00:24:49.759 --> 00:24:52.680 Well I can tell you this. I can tell you this. I 308 00:24:52.839 --> 00:24:57.319 detected metal on the site, but I did I did not dig it. 309 00:24:57.400 --> 00:25:00.799 I did not excavate it. And is that a sell? Is that a 310 00:25:00.920 --> 00:25:04.519 taboo thing to do. I mean, do they say no digging. I 311 00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:08.039 think the guy, last guy who admitted to taking stuff off the property, 312 00:25:10.559 --> 00:25:12.160 they tried to take his stuff away and oh yeah, to fight it. 313 00:25:14.599 --> 00:25:18.000 Yeah, the guy who's found New Mexico State or University of New Mexico or 314 00:25:18.079 --> 00:25:22.359 somewhere. I'll I can't recall his name offhand, but I'll look it up 315 00:25:22.400 --> 00:25:26.359 here at the break. Yeah, but they'll hassle with those people. Yeah, 316 00:25:26.440 --> 00:25:27.960 yeah, I remember, I remember that whole story. That was a 317 00:25:27.960 --> 00:25:30.960 couple of years ago. All right, everyone, so we're ready to go 318 00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:36.480 into the break. So this is Martin Willis, My guest is Ray Shusmanski, 319 00:25:36.640 --> 00:25:41.119 and we'll be right back right after these messages. Yeah. So we 320 00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:48.519 were just finishing up on Roswell and let's move on to some of the stories 321 00:25:48.559 --> 00:25:52.720 that you you cover. You actually, I believe you go in as a 322 00:25:53.000 --> 00:26:00.160 skeptic. Well. Um, for my new book, it's a story of 323 00:26:00.440 --> 00:26:10.160 three generations of contact. And the grandmother is in her mid fifties, and 324 00:26:10.279 --> 00:26:17.279 she has a daughter, and that daughter has a son, and Victoria is 325 00:26:17.279 --> 00:26:23.759 her name, and so we name the book Victorious Secret Truth. Now, 326 00:26:26.359 --> 00:26:32.920 when somebody tells you that they've had contact with creatures that they don't quite understand. 327 00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:41.920 You ask yourself, how do I find evidence? So I'm a former 328 00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:48.440 research scientist, That's how I spent my career, and so I'm trying to 329 00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:53.400 find facts so I can move forward. So on the physical end, what 330 00:26:53.480 --> 00:27:03.079 we decided to do is we looked at anything medical, and so Victoria gave 331 00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:10.400 me information that could be backed up by medical records that would indicate that perhaps 332 00:27:10.400 --> 00:27:15.559 there were some pregnancies there that never came to term, that in fact, 333 00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:21.079 her ags were being taken from her ever since she was a small child. 334 00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:29.440 She has a scoop mark much like many abductees have that looks like about the 335 00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:34.400 size of your pinkie, the little top portion and you could stick the bab 336 00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:40.319 was part of the pinkie and there many abductees have those scoop marks. So 337 00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:48.599 we looked at the physical evidence. Then Victoria has had four hypnotic regressions with 338 00:27:48.839 --> 00:27:56.960 three of the world's best hypnotic therapist, doctor Leo Sprinkle, who wind up 339 00:27:56.960 --> 00:28:06.240 eventually reading My Manused Gripped and wrote the foreword for the book. Doctor Sprinkle 340 00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:15.759 has regressed thousands of admitted abductees. The second person who did a regression of 341 00:28:15.880 --> 00:28:22.720 Victoria was Barbara Lamb. Barbara was famous for her regressions. She's also done 342 00:28:22.759 --> 00:28:36.359 thousands of people. The third person who regressed Victoria, I'm drawing a blank. 343 00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:40.480 This is really crazy, Avon Smith. She's going to kill me. 344 00:28:44.599 --> 00:28:52.480 So doctor Sprinkle did two of the regressions, Yvonne did one and Barbara Lamb 345 00:28:52.519 --> 00:29:04.079 did one. Now what I did as I was reviewing the information is I 346 00:29:04.160 --> 00:29:14.359 had discussions with Van Smith, with Barbara Lamb and with doctor Sprinkle and brought 347 00:29:14.400 --> 00:29:22.400 them kind of into this, you know, discussion, circular discussion about Victoria. 348 00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:30.839 I asked them questions about being able to fool three world class hypnotherapists, 349 00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:37.400 what they thought of their sessions with Victoria, their analysis of it. Victoria, 350 00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:44.359 let me share sessions that you know, Therapist A got to see therapist 351 00:29:44.480 --> 00:29:48.720 B and C and round Robin so that they could all see what was happening. 352 00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:56.240 And you know, I got the thumbs up that this this therapy, 353 00:29:56.359 --> 00:30:00.960 this this regression, all of these are consistent. The story is consistent, 354 00:30:02.720 --> 00:30:10.799 and in some cases the therapist asked these tricky questions, like Victoria would say 355 00:30:10.079 --> 00:30:18.880 the aliens were green and intentionally. Doctor Sprinkle would say, tell me about 356 00:30:18.920 --> 00:30:22.200 these blue aliens, and immediately Victoria would say, no, they were green 357 00:30:22.240 --> 00:30:27.960 aliens. And there are circumstances of each time these therapists did that as kind 358 00:30:27.960 --> 00:30:33.799 of a check to see if the story could be influenced, and in those 359 00:30:33.799 --> 00:30:40.799 sessions she was airtight. And I tried doing the same thing. I had 360 00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:45.680 over forty hours of interviews with Victoria, and trust me, I asked her 361 00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:52.559 a loaded question, I'd slipped things in. She never made a mistake, 362 00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:56.799 she never contradicted herself. It was clear as a bell. So as far 363 00:30:56.839 --> 00:31:03.119 as a witness is concerned, my confidence is soaring in Victoria's story. So 364 00:31:04.880 --> 00:31:08.759 the book focuses a lot on her. And then she has a grandson, 365 00:31:10.480 --> 00:31:15.839 and her grandson's now about eight or nine, and her grandson has had visitors 366 00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:21.680 that he drew pictures off for her and that he described conscious memories of what 367 00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:27.559 they did to him when they visited him, and those visitations with him continue 368 00:31:27.640 --> 00:31:34.519 today. Wow, and so you said three generations and you were you able 369 00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:42.480 to speak to all three of them? Are you saying the daughter is currently 370 00:31:42.759 --> 00:31:48.440 not cooperating. Yeah, she doesn't want to hear it. She doesn't want 371 00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:52.359 any part in it, and I just got to respect that. Yeah, 372 00:31:52.559 --> 00:32:00.480 okay, But so through the say her mother, her mother says, m 373 00:32:00.759 --> 00:32:04.920 yes, she has talked about it or she doesn't want to be interviewed. 374 00:32:05.519 --> 00:32:13.240 How did that? How did that go? From whose perspective? I'm just 375 00:32:13.319 --> 00:32:17.720 saying, how did you know that she was part part of this as far 376 00:32:17.799 --> 00:32:24.680 as the abductions or whatever if she didn't want to talk about it. Yeah, 377 00:32:24.720 --> 00:32:29.400 well, you know, you talk to the mother and you get some 378 00:32:29.480 --> 00:32:32.559 answers, so I see, and they were very, very very limited. 379 00:32:35.039 --> 00:32:38.279 So at this point, this point, I know, I know it's a 380 00:32:38.319 --> 00:32:44.160 certainty, but you know, I'm respecting her privacy. Sure. And when 381 00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:50.200 the grandmother or the first generation, when did she when did these things start 382 00:32:50.240 --> 00:32:58.240 happening to her? What year? This would have started in the late sixties 383 00:32:58.680 --> 00:33:05.279 when she was actually living outside Cincinnati. And the fact of where she lives 384 00:33:05.960 --> 00:33:09.160 is a kind of a cornerstone of the story because she was a young girl 385 00:33:09.160 --> 00:33:15.000 of about four or five when she got what she referred to as her alien 386 00:33:15.160 --> 00:33:21.640 scoop. Even when she was a youngster, and she remembers visitations of entities 387 00:33:22.039 --> 00:33:31.119 in her room, and she actually has conscious memories of seeing a spaceship where 388 00:33:31.160 --> 00:33:36.440 she was young. Yeah, you know, there's not a lot of people 389 00:33:36.519 --> 00:33:40.680 that will talk about things happening back at that time, but there are a 390 00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:44.519 few, you know. I mean, that's back when the Betty and Barney 391 00:33:44.599 --> 00:33:51.240 Hill incident happened. That's also there's also been other situations. For instance, 392 00:33:51.799 --> 00:33:58.000 Kathy marden Law has told me who she is, the niece of Betty Hill, 393 00:33:58.039 --> 00:34:01.319 and she was saying that it was generational, there were some things that 394 00:34:01.319 --> 00:34:07.039 were happening generational in her family. I believe she said it was her either 395 00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:13.280 a mother and maybe her possibly her grandmother that had some of these experiences. 396 00:34:14.199 --> 00:34:15.599 I hope I don't get that wrong, but I do believe that's what she 397 00:34:15.719 --> 00:34:22.440 told me. So it is that always has been an interesting aspect. I've 398 00:34:22.559 --> 00:34:25.920 been on the fence a lot of times on some of these so called abductions 399 00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:34.920 or encounters experiencers. But it is interesting how it seems to be a generational 400 00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:38.000 thing. And if you had to speculate, I know you have a science 401 00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:43.400 background, speculation is not what a lot of scientists want to do. But 402 00:34:44.199 --> 00:34:49.400 what would you speculate would be the reason why it would be generational? Well, 403 00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:54.880 I think they chose the first person, maybe because of their environment or 404 00:34:55.039 --> 00:35:02.199 genetics. Let's take Victoria for example. There was a place in southern Ohio, 405 00:35:02.280 --> 00:35:08.360 just north of Cincinnati called National Lead of Ohio. It was also called 406 00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:21.320 Fernald and they made enriched uranium products for the nuclear weapons program. Unfortunately, 407 00:35:21.559 --> 00:35:27.639 the contractors were not paying attention to what they're doing, and they eventually discovered 408 00:35:28.480 --> 00:35:39.360 that the people who ran that plant spewed over one million pounds of radioactive waste 409 00:35:40.119 --> 00:35:50.159 into the air, the ground, and the water. Victoria, Victoria, 410 00:35:50.480 --> 00:35:52.159 And you can look up at National if you look up at just type in 411 00:35:52.679 --> 00:36:01.079 NLO and nuclear. It was the worst nuclear environmental I don't want to use 412 00:36:01.119 --> 00:36:09.199 the word accident event in this country's history. The cancers that have been caused 413 00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:17.559 study studies have been done are astronomically higher, the cases per capital than they 414 00:36:17.599 --> 00:36:24.599 should be. Uh, it's it's it's it's incredible. But Victoria, who 415 00:36:24.760 --> 00:36:36.400 only lived five miles due west of the Fernald plant, now her mother worked 416 00:36:36.480 --> 00:36:43.280 at the Fernald plant and all the workers were exposed. Her mother died of 417 00:36:43.440 --> 00:36:49.559 a radiologically induced disease, and her brother also died at an early age. 418 00:36:50.360 --> 00:36:53.840 I won't speculate on his death, but I think if if I had enough 419 00:36:53.880 --> 00:37:00.280 time, I could probably tie it back into the fact that he was in 420 00:37:00.360 --> 00:37:06.000 his mother's womb while she was in the factory, and so is Victoria. 421 00:37:06.079 --> 00:37:10.679 Now imagine you're you're somebody who's trying to find a human being who appears to 422 00:37:10.719 --> 00:37:20.320 be not immune but not as affected by nuclear radiation as the average human, 423 00:37:20.800 --> 00:37:25.719 as appears to be the case with Victoria. So now you're somebody from you 424 00:37:25.760 --> 00:37:30.239 know, another planet, and you go, well, we really need to 425 00:37:30.280 --> 00:37:39.400 create hybrids who have some self genetic protection against this radiation thing. So Victoria 426 00:37:39.440 --> 00:37:45.039 would be one of those, because in one of her her regressions, the 427 00:37:45.440 --> 00:37:51.119 entity that's got her on the table and is examining her is telepathically asking her, 428 00:37:51.960 --> 00:37:54.480 why are you so healthy and your mother and your brother were not. 429 00:37:58.039 --> 00:38:06.559 It's a huge clue as to why Victoria may have been chosen. So now, 430 00:38:06.760 --> 00:38:12.599 genetically, you've got a good baseline subject to start with somebody who may 431 00:38:12.639 --> 00:38:16.559 be not as affected by all that stuff that blew out of the NLO plant. 432 00:38:16.960 --> 00:38:22.159 So I'm just guessing, you know, it's an educated guest based upon 433 00:38:22.480 --> 00:38:27.400 all the research I did on Victoria or family, their history, their medical 434 00:38:27.519 --> 00:38:30.239 history, that that may be the reason that she was selected, that she 435 00:38:30.440 --> 00:38:35.320 turned out to be healthy despite the fact that she was downwind of this stuff 436 00:38:35.320 --> 00:38:39.000 for her entire childhood while that plant was active. Now you say down wind, 437 00:38:39.039 --> 00:38:44.920 doesn't the wind typically go from west to east? And that she's five 438 00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:47.519 miles east of the plant east. I thought you said west. I'm sorry, 439 00:38:49.199 --> 00:38:51.719 Now, okay, if I did say west, I would have said 440 00:38:51.960 --> 00:38:53.920 the plant was five miles west. But yes, she was down wind. 441 00:38:54.239 --> 00:38:58.840 And I've checked all of the weather patterns and stuff, and you know, 442 00:38:58.920 --> 00:39:01.239 if you look at the weather, it's from where the wind actually blows. 443 00:39:01.920 --> 00:39:07.639 Um, it's about forty five percent from the west, and then the rest 444 00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:13.000 get divvys up, you know, southwest through to a northeast. Yeah. 445 00:39:13.119 --> 00:39:16.239 Yeah, wow. Um. Now this is totally off topic, but just 446 00:39:16.320 --> 00:39:21.199 quickly, did they ever really clean up that horrible disaster? Is that all 447 00:39:21.239 --> 00:39:25.519 cleaned up at this point? Yes? And then they developed a piddly squad 448 00:39:25.519 --> 00:39:31.480 diddly squad amount of money they're paying these people, and you know, if 449 00:39:31.519 --> 00:39:35.559 they're long dead, the relatives aren't getting anything. You know, we actually 450 00:39:35.559 --> 00:39:38.159 I know who the attorney is for the class action shoe to contact of them. 451 00:39:38.159 --> 00:39:44.119 I've chatted with him, but I cooked him up with Victoria to see 452 00:39:44.159 --> 00:39:49.239 if anything could be done. Nothing they could do. Yeah, so it's 453 00:39:49.280 --> 00:39:55.039 a travisty all the way around. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So what 454 00:39:55.119 --> 00:39:59.800 was your kind of your conclusion? So you think something really did happen to 455 00:40:00.039 --> 00:40:06.000 this family and something's actually continuing to happen to this boy. How old is 456 00:40:06.039 --> 00:40:14.519 he now? Oh? I would say I'll be eight or nine. Oh 457 00:40:14.519 --> 00:40:21.920 really started that started when he was about four? Wow? Wow that's something. 458 00:40:22.039 --> 00:40:25.280 And uh so your other book, um, I believe you talk. 459 00:40:27.039 --> 00:40:32.599 I mean you go into each case. There's three cases you go into as 460 00:40:32.599 --> 00:40:37.880 a skeptic you're trying to debunk them. One of them is the Travis Walton 461 00:40:38.679 --> 00:40:44.599 incident, one is Randelsham Forrest, and one is the Phoenix Lights. Is 462 00:40:44.639 --> 00:40:47.360 that right, Exeter? Oh yeah, that's right, Exeter. But it's 463 00:40:47.360 --> 00:40:52.679 Phoenix Lights that really moved you to decide you were going to look into this. 464 00:40:53.000 --> 00:40:55.519 Is that? Am I wrong? How did I get that right? 465 00:40:55.840 --> 00:41:02.159 Yes? Yes, And here's here's why, Martin. When the Phoenix Lights 466 00:41:04.480 --> 00:41:14.360 came out, they contacted Luke Air Force Base and asked if there were any 467 00:41:14.440 --> 00:41:20.880 jets chasing the UFO, which witnesses reported, and Luke Air Force Base said 468 00:41:22.400 --> 00:41:25.639 no, there were no planes. And then it became flares being dropped, 469 00:41:25.679 --> 00:41:34.760 and then well I became incensed at the response of Luke Air Force Base as 470 00:41:34.840 --> 00:41:39.119 public information officer, because it made the rest of us working for the Air 471 00:41:39.159 --> 00:41:47.960 Force look stupid. It's like, look at Roswell. I can give you 472 00:41:49.079 --> 00:41:53.480 that wasn't even my generation. I don't care, but now you got exciting 473 00:41:53.599 --> 00:42:00.679 where one hundred thousand people have got it on film and police officers, first 474 00:42:00.719 --> 00:42:07.280 responders, you know, everyday Joe's but people who are really sane and don't 475 00:42:07.280 --> 00:42:10.039 want the publicity and they're saying we saw it. And then the Air Force 476 00:42:10.119 --> 00:42:14.199 is going to come out and go, yeah, I mean, I know 477 00:42:14.280 --> 00:42:16.440 we had to. We can't use the weather balloon thing anymore, so how 478 00:42:16.480 --> 00:42:20.559 about some flares. You're all going to buy the flares thing? And they 479 00:42:20.599 --> 00:42:25.079 made some thing up about eight tens and then with bs and at that point 480 00:42:25.079 --> 00:42:29.679 I said, you know what, I'm jumping in with both feet. I'm 481 00:42:29.719 --> 00:42:36.320 going to find out for myself. And that's when I really started to dig 482 00:42:36.360 --> 00:42:38.800 and I, you know, called in some favors. I talked to some 483 00:42:38.840 --> 00:42:45.480 intelligence people in the Air Force, showed them some things, and I got 484 00:42:45.519 --> 00:42:50.920 some very positive, encouraging responses from them. I thought they would stonewally. 485 00:42:51.000 --> 00:42:52.360 That's not what happened. In fact, I think they wanted to know as 486 00:42:52.440 --> 00:42:55.760 much as I did about you know, and it was like, hey, 487 00:42:55.840 --> 00:43:00.519 keep me posted on this Phoenix Lights things. But I got some help from 488 00:43:00.599 --> 00:43:06.280 quarters that I really didn't think I would get any and that's what really got 489 00:43:06.320 --> 00:43:09.400 me going. And I started to do some field research and eventually I wound 490 00:43:09.440 --> 00:43:15.960 up going to Exeter and finding new witnesses and old witnesses and visited the sites 491 00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:22.280 and had some unique, how would you say, advancements there into a story 492 00:43:22.320 --> 00:43:27.239 I wanted to debunk, but I actually kept finding more evidence. Yeah, 493 00:43:27.760 --> 00:43:32.119 just if we can just just one second, go back to the Phoenix lights, 494 00:43:32.320 --> 00:43:37.320 so that I think was March thirteenth or something like that, nineteen ninety 495 00:43:37.320 --> 00:43:44.679 seven, and so it's it is possible that there was some military flares, 496 00:43:45.039 --> 00:43:50.199 but that only accounts for a short period of time. People were seeing these, 497 00:43:50.480 --> 00:43:52.880 you know, this big thing flying over them, some people leaving guessing 498 00:43:52.960 --> 00:43:58.480 up to eight miles wide, you know, or at least miles wide, 499 00:43:58.840 --> 00:44:06.480 which is pretty amazing. And so the military or the air force is saying 500 00:44:06.480 --> 00:44:12.840 that it was just military flares and you were on the inside basically contacting them 501 00:44:12.880 --> 00:44:16.599 because you were able to reach people, and how is your interaction and then 502 00:44:16.800 --> 00:44:20.559 we'll go on to the Exeter story, But how is your interaction with that? 503 00:44:21.039 --> 00:44:24.800 Well, the guy was the guy went public because the public Information officer, 504 00:44:25.119 --> 00:44:30.199 when he issues something, now you know, he doesn't really issue anything. 505 00:44:30.280 --> 00:44:34.639 What happens is is the commander, the basic commander says we've been contacted, 506 00:44:34.960 --> 00:44:40.000 tells the Public Information officer what's the response. They'll contact the public information 507 00:44:40.079 --> 00:44:45.400 people up at the Secretary of Defense's office and say, what do you want 508 00:44:45.480 --> 00:44:47.880 us to say? Here's what we're proposing. Yeah, they get it approved, 509 00:44:47.880 --> 00:44:52.480 It goes back down to Luke Air Force Base and then they do the 510 00:44:52.519 --> 00:44:57.559 release. Well, the Department of Defense has a thing called a Global address 511 00:44:57.639 --> 00:45:01.480 book, So when you on the inside and you're you're there and you've got 512 00:45:01.480 --> 00:45:07.000 your cat card in your machine, you can access everybody's email address. So 513 00:45:07.199 --> 00:45:12.800 I knew who the PIO was. I looked him up on a Global and 514 00:45:12.880 --> 00:45:19.079 sent him an inquiry and kind of got stone walled. And then I got 515 00:45:19.119 --> 00:45:22.559 mad and I go stop making I sent him in here, stopped making us 516 00:45:22.599 --> 00:45:25.760 look stupid. Please, you got to come up with something better than that, 517 00:45:25.920 --> 00:45:30.880 or how about the truth? And totally Stone and I know other guys 518 00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:35.280 in the building did the same thing, because it's like, look it, 519 00:45:36.559 --> 00:45:39.280 we know you've got to make something up, but you're making us look really 520 00:45:39.360 --> 00:45:45.519 dumb, so stop it. And of course now they're going to stone wall 521 00:45:45.599 --> 00:45:47.679 us. They won't talk to us. But at least at least I got 522 00:45:47.719 --> 00:45:52.159 the satisfacts and I got the bark at him at least once. Yeah, 523 00:45:52.239 --> 00:45:55.280 yeah, yeah, that's right. There was this story of a fighter parlt 524 00:45:55.320 --> 00:46:00.079 that went up and looked at it and he was absolutely shaken from what he 525 00:46:00.159 --> 00:46:05.320 saw. And it would be so interesting to be able to figure out who 526 00:46:05.400 --> 00:46:08.519 that was and be able to talk to him. That would be amazing that. 527 00:46:09.159 --> 00:46:14.599 I'm sure that's a situation where you can't talk about it, you know, 528 00:46:14.719 --> 00:46:20.119 for because I'm sure everything was top secret and classified with what he saw. 529 00:46:20.480 --> 00:46:24.760 But anyway, I can imagine anyway for the listener that's just first starting 530 00:46:24.760 --> 00:46:30.920 to listen and find out about this topic in general. Check out The Phoenix 531 00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:35.119 light. There's a lot of really good information online about that. There are 532 00:46:35.159 --> 00:46:38.760 a couple of movies that are are not exactly there. They're kind of theatrical 533 00:46:38.800 --> 00:46:43.960 movies that is not really the real story, but if you look into it 534 00:46:44.599 --> 00:46:46.920 you will see a lot of really good information on that. So we have 535 00:46:47.079 --> 00:46:51.760 just a three minutes we'll start getting into before we go into break. That 536 00:46:51.880 --> 00:46:57.119 is, before before we do, though go into break. You want to 537 00:46:57.159 --> 00:47:00.000 start talking about Exeter. You actually travel to Exeter, New Hampshire. I 538 00:47:00.039 --> 00:47:04.960 did, Yes, I went to the Exeter and I try to find some 539 00:47:05.000 --> 00:47:09.000 of the old the sites that were mentioned in Incident at Exeter written by John 540 00:47:09.039 --> 00:47:14.360 Fuller. Yeah, yeah, and he wrote he wrote that whole story. 541 00:47:14.519 --> 00:47:17.599 Yeah. And as far as witnesses, I know, the main witness died 542 00:47:17.679 --> 00:47:22.599 and I think in two thousand and one or something like that. I can't 543 00:47:22.639 --> 00:47:28.559 remember exactly. When are there witnesses left to actually talk to there? Yeah. 544 00:47:28.679 --> 00:47:36.960 Actually, it turns out that Clyde Russell owned the Russell Farm, and 545 00:47:37.280 --> 00:47:40.039 next door was a man by the name His last name was Dining d I 546 00:47:40.239 --> 00:47:45.079 N I n G. And in between the Russell Farm and the Dining Farm 547 00:47:46.039 --> 00:47:52.400 is a large horse pasture a couple of acres, and on the night of 548 00:47:52.199 --> 00:47:58.800 September nineteen sixty five, Norman Muscarello was walking up Route one fifty going into 549 00:47:58.840 --> 00:48:02.960 Exeter. He's hitchhiking coming from a friend's house, and he got in front 550 00:48:04.039 --> 00:48:10.679 of the Russell farmhouse and up hovering over the garage and the house was a 551 00:48:12.360 --> 00:48:17.360 ninety ft ufo. And I did my research and I found out where that 552 00:48:17.480 --> 00:48:22.039 house was, and I eventually visited that in around two thousand and eight. 553 00:48:22.480 --> 00:48:28.800 And who did I find living there but Clyde Russell's son, Arthur. And 554 00:48:29.079 --> 00:48:34.559 Arthur knew the whole story, and Clyde Russell and his family was made famous 555 00:48:34.840 --> 00:48:37.599 in the book Incident an Exeter. And when we come back from the break, 556 00:48:37.880 --> 00:48:43.559 I can tell you about how I spent the day with Clyde Russell and 557 00:48:43.679 --> 00:48:47.920 the witness that he introduced me to that gave me some additional information on that 558 00:48:49.000 --> 00:48:53.800 particular incident. It's really fascinating. Wow, that's great. Okay, everyone, 559 00:48:53.800 --> 00:48:58.280 we're going to go into the break now and we'll be back in just 560 00:48:58.320 --> 00:49:01.760 a few minutes, so hang in there. So, Ray, we were 561 00:49:02.320 --> 00:49:05.440 when we went into break, you said that you were going to continue. 562 00:49:05.440 --> 00:49:13.719 You spent a day with the sun from insidet Exeter one of the farmhouse, 563 00:49:13.920 --> 00:49:19.400 right, yeah, nineteen sixty five, Norman Muscarello was trying to thumb a 564 00:49:19.480 --> 00:49:22.639 ride as he walked up New Hampshire one fifty on his way back home to 565 00:49:22.760 --> 00:49:27.480 Exeter, and it was very very dark. And if I've actually been out 566 00:49:27.480 --> 00:49:30.880 on that road at the same time of year with no moon and you cannot 567 00:49:30.920 --> 00:49:34.280 see your hand in front of your face. So he's trying to flag down 568 00:49:34.280 --> 00:49:37.199 a ride. He's now in front of the Russell farmhouse and out behind a 569 00:49:37.320 --> 00:49:45.599 tree line pops this object that Norman always called that thing. He never called 570 00:49:45.639 --> 00:49:49.280 it a craft, he never called it a UFO. He always said that 571 00:49:49.440 --> 00:49:52.079 thing. And it had these lights on it. It's like a six five 572 00:49:52.159 --> 00:49:57.000 four three two one one two three four five six, and that's the way 573 00:49:57.000 --> 00:50:00.559 the pattern was. But it was hovering just a few feet over the farmhouse 574 00:50:00.719 --> 00:50:06.880 and the garage. So Norman, thinking this thing's going to fall and crush 575 00:50:06.960 --> 00:50:10.320 him, runs across the road, dives into the narrow channel there and the 576 00:50:10.440 --> 00:50:15.480 UFO backs off. He makes it into Exeter police station. Somebody actually picked 577 00:50:15.519 --> 00:50:21.679 him up. He was hysterical guy. By the name of Reginald Scratched Tolin 578 00:50:22.159 --> 00:50:28.480 is the death. Sergeant Norman spits out this story, and he says to 579 00:50:28.719 --> 00:50:31.159 a guy by the name of Eugene Bertrand, police officer, who had just 580 00:50:31.159 --> 00:50:35.119 come to check in. He said, Jeane, go out there. Take 581 00:50:35.199 --> 00:50:37.679 him to that field, check it out, and you know there's nothing there. 582 00:50:37.800 --> 00:50:40.440 Come back. So they get out there. They're out there for about 583 00:50:40.480 --> 00:50:44.840 five to ten minutes. They don't see anything, and now they want to 584 00:50:45.079 --> 00:50:49.239 head out of that field and come back to the squad car. When that 585 00:50:49.400 --> 00:50:53.320 thing reappears, it hovers less than a hundred feet over the head of police 586 00:50:53.360 --> 00:51:00.920 officer Bertrand and Norman Muscarello. Well. Bertrand, being a highly trained defender 587 00:51:01.039 --> 00:51:06.519 of civil liberties, pulls out his revolver, gets down on one knee, 588 00:51:06.840 --> 00:51:12.519 aims at the craft, and then went no, not today was gone. 589 00:51:13.639 --> 00:51:17.239 It was. He grabs Norman and they run to the squad car and he 590 00:51:17.280 --> 00:51:20.760 gets on the squawk. He goes, Scratch, I see the sink. 591 00:51:21.000 --> 00:51:24.079 I see the damn thing myself. Well. As he's talking to Scratch back 592 00:51:24.119 --> 00:51:30.039 at the office, David Hunt, another patrolman pulls up. They go back 593 00:51:30.039 --> 00:51:34.320 into the field and now all three of them watch as that thing heads out 594 00:51:34.320 --> 00:51:39.760 towards the Atlantic Ocean. Yeah, so that's nineteen sixty five September. Fast 595 00:51:39.800 --> 00:51:45.760 forward decades later. I'm in the Exeter area and I done my research and 596 00:51:45.800 --> 00:51:54.079 I figured out do internet searches where that farmhouse was. Now that'd s you 597 00:51:54.079 --> 00:51:58.840 know, this is almost fifty years later. I don't expect to find anybody 598 00:51:58.880 --> 00:52:02.880 there who knows anything. I get there, and who do I find is 599 00:52:04.280 --> 00:52:07.159 the son of Clyde Russell, who was there all those years ago and who 600 00:52:07.199 --> 00:52:09.880 was made famous in a book. It's his son, Arthur, who's eighty 601 00:52:09.960 --> 00:52:14.519 years old. I tell Arthur who I am. I'm an Air Force guy. 602 00:52:14.800 --> 00:52:17.239 I'm interested in the story. What does he know? He walks me 603 00:52:17.440 --> 00:52:22.000 through the entire story. When you get my book, you'll see how I've 604 00:52:22.000 --> 00:52:29.559 got a photo of Arthur in there, and he's actually pointing where Norman was 605 00:52:29.599 --> 00:52:34.480 standing. He's pointing to the place where that UFO was hovering over their farmhouse. 606 00:52:35.079 --> 00:52:38.719 He toured me through the property, showed me where the UFO was most 607 00:52:38.760 --> 00:52:46.079 likely hiding during the daytime, introduced me to neighbors who had stories but couldn't 608 00:52:46.119 --> 00:52:52.599 come forward for the author, John Fuller because they were in positions of prominence. 609 00:52:53.000 --> 00:53:00.440 One that he introduced me to was the head teacher at the Exeter Academy. 610 00:53:04.199 --> 00:53:07.280 Yeah it is. He knew what was going on but couldn't say anything. 611 00:53:07.960 --> 00:53:14.880 He eventually purchased the Dining Farm. Now why is it important because in 612 00:53:14.960 --> 00:53:21.320 the John Fuller book he describes the horses as were described by the police officer 613 00:53:21.400 --> 00:53:29.079 at Muscarello, making a huge noise in their barns, like they were kicking 614 00:53:29.159 --> 00:53:35.239 it in. When I talked to this former teacher at Exeter, he told 615 00:53:35.320 --> 00:53:40.480 me that when he bought the Dining Farm, the horse stables where the horses 616 00:53:40.519 --> 00:53:46.719 were was still kicked in. It had never been repaired. And indeed, 617 00:53:46.840 --> 00:53:52.360 that night when that UFO was hovering over that farm field, over Norman and 618 00:53:52.519 --> 00:53:58.039 those two police officers, the horses were kicking in their barns. And he 619 00:53:58.800 --> 00:54:01.840 was the first guy to verify that in an interview that I did with him 620 00:54:02.079 --> 00:54:07.159 in two thousand and eight. Wow, So that was one of my revelations. 621 00:54:07.199 --> 00:54:10.000 I was like, yeah, I'm not going to find anything, And 622 00:54:10.199 --> 00:54:15.039 yet I got people who've come out of the woodwork. Yeah, I grew 623 00:54:15.159 --> 00:54:17.880 up. Oh, I don't know, maybe ten miles away from that area. 624 00:54:19.559 --> 00:54:22.599 Vaguely remember hearing about it. I was on the main side, but 625 00:54:22.840 --> 00:54:28.840 maybe fifteen miles away something like that. I vaguely remember hearing something about it, 626 00:54:28.920 --> 00:54:31.079 but never really you know, looked into it. Of course, when 627 00:54:31.079 --> 00:54:36.000 I was growing up, I thought this was an interesting topic, but never 628 00:54:36.119 --> 00:54:40.599 really looked into anything. But now there was a There was something about a 629 00:54:40.679 --> 00:54:47.599 woman at a traffic circle also during that incident, right, someone who stopped 630 00:54:47.679 --> 00:54:52.559 or something. Yes, she was driving down the road and in John Fuller's 631 00:54:52.599 --> 00:54:58.039 book the name of the road is you know defined in there. It came 632 00:54:58.559 --> 00:55:02.000 and hovered over her car. Her car stopped and it floated out in front 633 00:55:02.039 --> 00:55:07.599 of her and she got to witness it for several minutes. Yeah, And 634 00:55:07.760 --> 00:55:13.199 if you go through Fuller's book, there are dozens upon dozens of witnesses. 635 00:55:13.360 --> 00:55:17.840 And in the end Peace Air Force Base is within about ten miles of where 636 00:55:19.000 --> 00:55:22.559 Norman and the police officers saw this. The commander of Peace came out and 637 00:55:22.719 --> 00:55:25.840 try to tell the people who were gathering every night in the field that what 638 00:55:25.960 --> 00:55:32.079 they were seeing were tankers refueling airplanes. Yes, yes, I remember that. 639 00:55:32.800 --> 00:55:37.719 That was their whole reasoning behind you know, their whole debunking of it, 640 00:55:37.599 --> 00:55:43.000 and that didn't fit with any part of this really. I mean, 641 00:55:43.119 --> 00:55:46.679 that's in a high altitude for one thing. You know, when they refuel, 642 00:55:46.760 --> 00:55:50.920 they're not at low aptitude as far as I know. Well, you 643 00:55:51.280 --> 00:55:55.920 tell the three Tell the three people, including two police officers, who saw 644 00:55:57.000 --> 00:56:00.719 this thing hovering one hundred feet and when the air when the Air Force tried 645 00:56:00.760 --> 00:56:05.559 to debunk those two police officers, one of whom was retired Air Force, 646 00:56:06.639 --> 00:56:09.559 when the Air Force tried to debunk those guys, they wrote the Air Force 647 00:56:09.639 --> 00:56:14.920 an angry letter back. I never heard that part. Yeah, yes, 648 00:56:15.599 --> 00:56:19.400 yeah, so yeah, that's a that's a great story, and they they 649 00:56:20.360 --> 00:56:23.840 that's one of the real good ones. And I've gone to the celebration of 650 00:56:23.960 --> 00:56:30.119 that they have is put on by something like the Lions Club or or something 651 00:56:30.239 --> 00:56:35.039 like that. Every year there speakers come in from all over. It's always 652 00:56:35.079 --> 00:56:37.800 fun and it's still not that far to drive from where I live. I've 653 00:56:37.840 --> 00:56:42.440 gone there a number of times, and last time I went stant Freeman and 654 00:56:42.599 --> 00:56:47.320 was there. And you know, as many times as I've heard him speaking 655 00:56:47.559 --> 00:56:53.079 in person and on this show, I always loved hearing hearing him talk he's 656 00:56:53.119 --> 00:56:59.760 great. He was great. He was a big loss. But is there 657 00:56:59.760 --> 00:57:05.280 any thing else you can add about this particular sighting that you found out why 658 00:57:05.360 --> 00:57:07.800 you're researching it? Yes, just that. And I had talked to some 659 00:57:07.880 --> 00:57:13.599 other folks who actually were witnesses to it and tried to avoid the limelight. 660 00:57:14.639 --> 00:57:19.280 None really wanted to talk on record. And I thought that you know the 661 00:57:19.440 --> 00:57:24.639 fact that they hid and the community knew, but I'll tell you a little 662 00:57:24.679 --> 00:57:30.840 incident that happened. I had been there. He asked, that's right, 663 00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:35.639 very good, just to let you know that it was still in the consciousness 664 00:57:35.840 --> 00:57:42.079 of those people. I was there at night and I was investigating. And 665 00:57:42.320 --> 00:57:45.199 on my last night's investigation, I had parked where I had been on a 666 00:57:45.280 --> 00:57:47.400 couple of other nights. When I went to park in my parking place, 667 00:57:47.480 --> 00:57:54.480 which was this little cleared mode area, someone had parked a twenty five foot 668 00:57:54.559 --> 00:58:05.199 long Kamatsu frontloader along with road scraping equipment, brushes and everything else. And 669 00:58:05.360 --> 00:58:09.599 I thought, I'm being warned away. These people don't want me to park 670 00:58:09.719 --> 00:58:15.320 here. So I squeezed my car, my rental car, in between the 671 00:58:16.320 --> 00:58:21.159 front loader and all the stuff they had scattered on that grassy area and the 672 00:58:21.280 --> 00:58:24.599 tree line, and while I was sitting there, I took a photo of 673 00:58:25.119 --> 00:58:34.079 the stuff for posterity. I hear a female voice coming through the window of 674 00:58:34.159 --> 00:58:37.800 the driver's window. I'm not parked the roads on my left, and a 675 00:58:37.920 --> 00:58:42.719 woman's voice says, high. Now. It was so dark, Martin. 676 00:58:42.840 --> 00:58:46.199 I couldn't see in front of my face and so it was just a disembodied 677 00:58:46.280 --> 00:58:50.800 voice. So I said hi, and the lady says, well, what 678 00:58:50.920 --> 00:58:54.639 are you doing here? Now? You imagine my shock. I did not 679 00:58:54.840 --> 00:59:00.519 see or hear a car pull up next to me, so maybe just snuck 680 00:59:00.599 --> 00:59:04.280 up on foot. I don't know, but I couldn't tell because I couldn't 681 00:59:04.280 --> 00:59:08.920 see three feet. So I said quickly, you know, mine's race romancing 682 00:59:08.960 --> 00:59:12.920 if on the air force. I'm here to reinvestigate this thing, and I 683 00:59:13.000 --> 00:59:16.800 want to see what it was like the night More Norman was here. And 684 00:59:16.960 --> 00:59:22.360 she stops. She cuts me off. She said, they're not coming back. 685 00:59:22.519 --> 00:59:29.880 There's nothing here for you to see. You need to leave. Now. 686 00:59:30.000 --> 00:59:36.199 Imagine what's going through my mind. It's late at night or early in 687 00:59:36.280 --> 00:59:40.559 the morning, take your choice. And I have a female voice on a 688 00:59:40.800 --> 00:59:51.559 lonely country single lane road telling me to leave the area now, and I 689 00:59:52.000 --> 00:59:53.440 all right, you got a female voice, but you could be some haulking 690 00:59:53.480 --> 00:59:57.960 person with a gun. I don't know because I can't see you. So 691 00:59:58.159 --> 01:00:00.440 I thought, well, maybe she didn't understand what I said the first time. 692 01:00:00.760 --> 01:00:04.840 So I went through my story again and she cuts me off and said, 693 01:00:05.800 --> 01:00:08.920 they're not coming back. There's nothing here for you to see. You 694 01:00:09.079 --> 01:00:14.960 need to leave. Weird is generally a very friendly area, very friendly people 695 01:00:15.039 --> 01:00:17.119 in the whole area there. So, yeah, that does sound kind of 696 01:00:17.159 --> 01:00:22.840 strange. I had waited years to go there and do the investigation. I'd 697 01:00:22.840 --> 01:00:25.360 spent a couple of years just research again, knowing I had a few days 698 01:00:25.400 --> 01:00:29.480 and exactly what I was going to do now. I grew up in Detroit, 699 01:00:30.440 --> 01:00:31.719 and I'm pretty tough. I spent a lot of time on the streets. 700 01:00:32.000 --> 01:00:37.119 Five brothers, you know, tons of buds in the neighborhood. And 701 01:00:37.239 --> 01:00:42.079 I thought to myself, you know, you've waited all this time to do 702 01:00:42.239 --> 01:00:49.719 this. Are you going to let some disembodied female voice scare you away? 703 01:00:49.800 --> 01:00:55.519 So you know what I did. I got my skinny Detroit butt out of 704 01:00:55.559 --> 01:01:04.199 there as fast as I could. Did you actually, now, if you 705 01:01:04.280 --> 01:01:07.119 go over to Peas. Now Peas has all taken apart and it's you know, 706 01:01:07.199 --> 01:01:14.440 a commercial building. But there's no way you could actually speak with anyone 707 01:01:14.639 --> 01:01:16.400 over there. But I wonder if there was ever a record Now I know 708 01:01:16.559 --> 01:01:22.400 Betty and Barney Hill, who was actually a record at Pease Air Force Base? 709 01:01:22.760 --> 01:01:28.880 Did you were you able to research or try to research any documents on 710 01:01:29.039 --> 01:01:32.119 this as far as no. But but again when you read my book, 711 01:01:32.280 --> 01:01:37.480 my first book, what you're going to find out is is that during the 712 01:01:37.679 --> 01:01:44.960 time of the incident at Exeter, Peace Air Force Base was home to the 713 01:01:45.119 --> 01:01:49.800 five h ninth bomb Group. Does that sound familiar to you. Yeah, 714 01:01:50.960 --> 01:01:54.679 they're the same group from Roswell who dropped the atomic bombs. Well, they 715 01:01:54.719 --> 01:02:00.400 had been transferred to Peas and so Pease was starring nuclear weapons. So if 716 01:02:00.440 --> 01:02:04.920 you want to know what the UFOs were doing around that area at the time, 717 01:02:05.760 --> 01:02:08.360 yeah, a really good guess would be they're checking up on the nukes 718 01:02:08.440 --> 01:02:12.960 that Peace was housing. Wow. Do you know where I grew up? 719 01:02:13.519 --> 01:02:15.800 I grew up on top of a hill called Winter Hill. It was a 720 01:02:15.920 --> 01:02:22.960 property that was a single farmhouse on top of a hill overlook looking the river 721 01:02:23.719 --> 01:02:30.039 and directly looking at Peas Air Force Base, so I could sit on my 722 01:02:30.159 --> 01:02:32.960 porch or sit on the upper hill, and my sisters and I often did 723 01:02:34.039 --> 01:02:37.679 because we saw like weather balloons and stuff like that from there, and we 724 01:02:37.719 --> 01:02:42.519 would watch the planes land over at peace. It was probably as the crow 725 01:02:42.639 --> 01:02:45.360 flies, as they say, probably five miles away, but you still could 726 01:02:45.400 --> 01:02:51.840 see them coming out, you know, landing and flying and anytime there was 727 01:02:51.920 --> 01:02:53.480 the Blue Angels there or something like that. It was a lot of fun 728 01:02:54.159 --> 01:02:59.440 living where we did. And there was also a crash. I remember being 729 01:03:00.280 --> 01:03:02.599 sitting at the dinner table and all of a sudden, the lamp on the 730 01:03:02.679 --> 01:03:07.599 ceiling moving back and forth. It was a crash F eighteen or something like 731 01:03:07.760 --> 01:03:12.559 that. But it's funny when in the sixties, back then, when there 732 01:03:12.679 --> 01:03:16.440 was I guess there was a UFO wave or flap in that whole area. 733 01:03:17.440 --> 01:03:23.079 I do remember sitting out with my sisters on the lawn and we were looking 734 01:03:23.119 --> 01:03:27.400 for UFOs, and then, you know, over the years, I kind 735 01:03:27.440 --> 01:03:30.480 of forgot about all that until I actually had a sighting. But have you 736 01:03:30.639 --> 01:03:36.239 yourself, I ever had any type of sighting A sighting, yeah, UFO 737 01:03:36.320 --> 01:03:43.119 sighting. Yeah, you cut out momentarily there. I've actually had one that 738 01:03:43.280 --> 01:03:45.760 I can say one hundred percent for sure was not ours, and then I 739 01:03:45.880 --> 01:03:52.719 had one at long distance. So the most important one was two thousand and 740 01:03:52.880 --> 01:03:57.800 eleven, first week of December. I was coming back from a physical therapy 741 01:03:57.880 --> 01:04:01.480 appointment because I had been in the car record year earlier, and I was 742 01:04:02.119 --> 01:04:04.360 kind of, you know, on the men. So I was coming home 743 01:04:04.760 --> 01:04:08.519 and we had a really low ceiling, you know, some days we get 744 01:04:08.559 --> 01:04:15.360 a ceiling here a hundred feet and I was coming home and something light broke. 745 01:04:15.480 --> 01:04:17.800 It was a very overcast, low, low ceiling, but a shadowy 746 01:04:17.920 --> 01:04:23.800 thing broke the light of my moon roof. And I only live a few 747 01:04:23.920 --> 01:04:28.119 miles from Mike Patterson, so I'm used to that happening all the time, 748 01:04:28.639 --> 01:04:31.840 of planes coming in, especially now with you know, with the war going 749 01:04:31.920 --> 01:04:36.800 on. And but the thing that struck me is is despite the fact that 750 01:04:38.199 --> 01:04:42.599 the window was closed, my shade was pulled open, but I didn't hear 751 01:04:42.639 --> 01:04:45.599 a noise, and usually, you know, I got to see five going 752 01:04:45.679 --> 01:04:49.840 over car shake, so I thought it was unusual. And I could just 753 01:04:49.960 --> 01:04:54.360 tell by the way the light happened that it was going to come down, 754 01:04:54.440 --> 01:04:57.719 and I could look to the front windshield, and when I looked down, 755 01:04:58.039 --> 01:05:02.719 I'm trying to stop for traffic at a traffic light, and what I eventually 756 01:05:03.000 --> 01:05:12.119 estimated to be a ninety foot wide craft. I got about a seven second 757 01:05:12.239 --> 01:05:17.280 look on it. And in my first book Alien Shades of Grays, there 758 01:05:17.400 --> 01:05:23.400 was a photograph of that intersection, and I took a graphics program and I 759 01:05:23.519 --> 01:05:28.000 drew in what I saw, and I saw the tail end of this craft, 760 01:05:28.639 --> 01:05:35.000 which was about ninety foot long. So that's that's a no doubt. 761 01:05:35.480 --> 01:05:41.760 It wasn't ours. And then a handful of years earlier, I was doing 762 01:05:41.880 --> 01:05:45.320 some satellite watching using the Heavens Above website. It tells you where all the 763 01:05:45.400 --> 01:05:49.920 satellites are going to be. And it was July. It was beautiful, 764 01:05:49.960 --> 01:05:54.000 crisp clear. I was looking to the west and there was this big bright 765 01:05:54.119 --> 01:06:00.840 satellite came in and then I realized it had two objects with it, so 766 01:06:00.440 --> 01:06:05.840 they kind of formed like an angle like this, So you had one super 767 01:06:05.960 --> 01:06:13.639 bright object here the satellite in the middle, and down here was another super 768 01:06:13.719 --> 01:06:19.800 bright object, and they tracked across the sky as one and it was it 769 01:06:20.000 --> 01:06:25.039 was mind blowing, but it was obviously up at the height of the satellite. 770 01:06:25.079 --> 01:06:28.519 But imagine, you know, if the satellite is supposed to be there 771 01:06:28.599 --> 01:06:33.679 by itself, what's next to it? Yeah, and it definitely was not 772 01:06:33.840 --> 01:06:38.639 the space station because I checked all the you know sites, and you know, 773 01:06:38.760 --> 01:06:40.880 it was on the other side of the planet Earth at that time. 774 01:06:41.199 --> 01:06:45.320 So there is no explanation that I have for those three lights. And the 775 01:06:45.719 --> 01:06:54.599 two that were kind of like escorting it were like arc welding intensity wow. 776 01:06:55.719 --> 01:06:59.920 And the other one you know standard yeah, reflective satellite kind of stuff. 777 01:07:00.239 --> 01:07:03.039 Wow. Yeah. I know that. A lot of times you will see 778 01:07:03.079 --> 01:07:08.400 it pretty Sometimes you will see a fairly bright reflection. I'm sure you know 779 01:07:08.519 --> 01:07:15.719 that from the Sun um as a satellites going, but it goes out eventually 780 01:07:15.920 --> 01:07:20.360 or dims or you know, as it's passing through the shadow of our planet. 781 01:07:20.800 --> 01:07:25.360 Um there some of Bobby had sent me. Bobby who's calls in now 782 01:07:25.400 --> 01:07:30.159 and then from North Carolina, had sent me a video that an astronomer took 783 01:07:30.280 --> 01:07:34.280 of the Moon. I'm going to look into it more. It looks pretty 784 01:07:34.360 --> 01:07:38.280 amazing, but I don't know what it is. It almost looks like a 785 01:07:38.360 --> 01:07:43.280 fleet of UFOs going over the surface of the Moon, shadow shadows across the 786 01:07:43.360 --> 01:07:46.039 moon and everything. It's pretty interesting. Again, Yeah, that's been debunked. 787 01:07:46.159 --> 01:07:49.039 I was just going to say, again, there's so much CGI out 788 01:07:49.079 --> 01:07:56.880 there. Is that what it is? Mark D'Antonio, who's a CGR world 789 01:07:56.920 --> 01:08:03.559 class expert, he debunked it in in in um massive, massive amounts of 790 01:08:03.679 --> 01:08:06.800 technical detail. Mark will make your head spend. Yeah. No, I've 791 01:08:06.840 --> 01:08:11.440 known Mark for years. Yeah. Yeah, he went to every aspect of 792 01:08:11.519 --> 01:08:15.119 it and he flat out debunked it. Oh. That that's good to know. 793 01:08:15.639 --> 01:08:17.720 So another one Bobby sent me. This is like the second or third 794 01:08:17.800 --> 01:08:23.159 one he sent me. He's been debunked by Mark. But um, yeah, 795 01:08:23.199 --> 01:08:27.359 that's it's well done. For the average person, you know, that 796 01:08:27.600 --> 01:08:31.600 is skimming through YouTube, and I say watch or be aware if you're looking 797 01:08:31.640 --> 01:08:36.159 through YouTube. This this is how i'd put it. I would say that 798 01:08:36.640 --> 01:08:42.439 UFO videos on YouTube are guilty to proven innocent. Um, that's the best 799 01:08:42.479 --> 01:08:47.079 way you can put it. Really, I wouldn't trust uh yeah, I 800 01:08:47.079 --> 01:08:49.880 wouldn't trust too many of them. Don't. Yeah, don't. Yeah, 801 01:08:49.960 --> 01:08:54.399 don't waste your time. Get a good standard Friedman book, you know, 802 01:08:55.000 --> 01:08:58.319 don't waste your time on YouTube driving nuts. Yeah, that's right, that's 803 01:08:58.439 --> 01:09:01.800 right. UM, so let's let's talk about I don't know you said you 804 01:09:02.159 --> 01:09:08.279 also have Travis Walton in that book as well. I've known Travis for several 805 01:09:08.399 --> 01:09:13.239 years. He's someone that I actually trust and have looked eye to eye and 806 01:09:13.640 --> 01:09:16.399 had a discussion with many discussions with him, and I know you did too, 807 01:09:16.479 --> 01:09:21.359 So let's talk about your situation with Travis. Well, I was at 808 01:09:21.399 --> 01:09:27.199 the International UFO Congress and I met Jennifer Stein and she had just wrapped a 809 01:09:27.279 --> 01:09:33.399 movie Travis Yeah, And I had told her that I was a photographer and 810 01:09:33.560 --> 01:09:39.960 I was going I didn't have the GPS coordinates of Travis's site, but I'd 811 01:09:40.000 --> 01:09:43.560 researched it for a couple of years and I had a pretty good idea that 812 01:09:43.640 --> 01:09:46.359 I could find it on my own. And she said, you know what, 813 01:09:46.560 --> 01:09:48.319 I was going to ask me what I was going to do up there, 814 01:09:48.319 --> 01:09:50.039 and I said, well, I just want to do some research. 815 01:09:50.079 --> 01:09:53.720 I like to go and you know, kind of get the feel of the 816 01:09:53.800 --> 01:09:58.920 site. I want to look around. And she said, well, if 817 01:09:59.000 --> 01:10:02.199 you would do me a face and take some photos of these tree stumps up 818 01:10:02.239 --> 01:10:09.079 there, I know somebody who can help you find the site. So I 819 01:10:09.199 --> 01:10:11.840 said, sure, I could use some help, and next thing I know, 820 01:10:12.000 --> 01:10:15.359 she's yelling over, hey, Travis, get over here. And Travis 821 01:10:15.520 --> 01:10:17.960 was down the other end of the table. We were all eating dinner, 822 01:10:18.560 --> 01:10:21.399 and so he comes up. She introduces me, and a couple of days 823 01:10:21.479 --> 01:10:25.439 later, Travis and I got him in the back of by four by four 824 01:10:25.920 --> 01:10:30.680 and we're driving through the Apache Sitgreaves National Forest and he's directing me right to 825 01:10:30.800 --> 01:10:36.680 the site of his incident. So we spent the very cold February afternoon. 826 01:10:38.399 --> 01:10:42.920 He's showing me where the site was and what tree stumps to shoot, and 827 01:10:43.079 --> 01:10:49.640 eventually the little research project that I did for Jennifer got incorporated into the movie. 828 01:10:49.680 --> 01:10:55.279 Travis, I mean, in fact part of me. Did this have 829 01:10:55.399 --> 01:11:00.840 to do with the unusual tree rings? Yes, the growth is exponentially larger 830 01:11:01.399 --> 01:11:05.640 for each of the trees in the direction of where the UFO was hovering. 831 01:11:06.079 --> 01:11:11.199 It was like a magnet, like it sucked the trees towards there. And 832 01:11:11.239 --> 01:11:14.920 now I did a lot of research about what can cause that, and it 833 01:11:15.039 --> 01:11:21.960 turns out that for any of the reasons, the natural reasons to actually cover 834 01:11:23.119 --> 01:11:27.800 it, the growth would have to be in the same direction. It would 835 01:11:27.800 --> 01:11:33.359 be like water availability, wind, you know several other natural phenomena, but 836 01:11:34.239 --> 01:11:40.680 since they were growing towards a centroid, a center point, you could throw 837 01:11:40.800 --> 01:11:45.279 all of those excuses out the window. So I went up there with Travis. 838 01:11:45.399 --> 01:11:48.880 We spent the day doing that, and then it was really weird. 839 01:11:48.920 --> 01:11:53.199 It was getting laid, the sun was going down, and we're standing at 840 01:11:53.239 --> 01:11:57.479 the point where it happened, and he starts telling me about it. And 841 01:11:57.600 --> 01:12:00.520 he says, he said, could you see that road down there and well 842 01:12:00.600 --> 01:12:02.880 camping He goes, well, it's really not used anymore. He goes, 843 01:12:02.960 --> 01:12:05.680 that was an old logging road. He says, we were coming up that 844 01:12:05.840 --> 01:12:09.479 road. He goes, and we were looking in this direction because we thought 845 01:12:09.520 --> 01:12:12.960 we saw a forest fire. And he's pointing, and he's telling me, 846 01:12:13.119 --> 01:12:15.760 Now, I'd spent that afternoon, you know, with a ladder, scraping 847 01:12:16.079 --> 01:12:21.159 chiseling ice off of these tree stumps and taking photos and logging in my book 848 01:12:21.199 --> 01:12:27.039 and drawing them and you know, doing the researching thing. And he starts 849 01:12:27.079 --> 01:12:30.359 to tell me the story, and it was just like a I don't know, 850 01:12:30.960 --> 01:12:36.159 one of those holy moments. And he's telling me the story about driving 851 01:12:36.319 --> 01:12:40.960 up and how he got out and everything that happened. And there I am 852 01:12:41.039 --> 01:12:45.800 at the site with the guy and he's telling me the story, and you 853 01:12:45.880 --> 01:12:48.960 know, then I get to look him in the eyes and like ask him 854 01:12:49.000 --> 01:12:57.119 a couple of questions and you can see him reliving it right there. And 855 01:12:57.279 --> 01:13:00.960 of course, you know, I include that in a in Shades of Grays 856 01:13:00.199 --> 01:13:03.159 and some other things, you know, because Travis can be a funny guy 857 01:13:03.199 --> 01:13:08.159 and we had some funny things happen, and and you know, there's more 858 01:13:08.239 --> 01:13:11.399 to Travis than just that incident. Oh yeah, and I include a lot 859 01:13:11.479 --> 01:13:15.239 of that in the chapter. I found Travis to be very intelligent, first 860 01:13:15.279 --> 01:13:19.600 of all, and I've had many conversations with him that had nothing to do 861 01:13:19.680 --> 01:13:24.880 with his incident. And uh yeah, he's he's really there. There is 862 01:13:25.000 --> 01:13:29.159 a lot of layers to that onion when it comes to Travis, he's he's 863 01:13:29.159 --> 01:13:32.520 a very very interesting guy. And and uh, you know, I mean 864 01:13:33.960 --> 01:13:39.159 the thing that I I got out of that the whole incident or whatever, 865 01:13:39.279 --> 01:13:43.960 that the two things that I think are really strange or whatever, is the 866 01:13:44.119 --> 01:13:47.720 eyes of the aliens, if you want to call them aliens, whatever they 867 01:13:47.760 --> 01:13:54.319 were. That was the scariest part for him. He said that the eyes 868 01:13:54.399 --> 01:13:59.439 were you know, just staring at him, just scared the heck out of 869 01:13:59.520 --> 01:14:02.640 him, you know, and U and I also asked him, I don't 870 01:14:02.640 --> 01:14:06.880 know if you asked him about the movie Fire in the Sky what he thought 871 01:14:06.880 --> 01:14:11.000 about it. Did you talk to him about the movie, because I know 872 01:14:11.079 --> 01:14:15.319 there were some definite differences in the real story. Yeah. I think what 873 01:14:15.479 --> 01:14:19.279 I remember is um first of all, he told me he had a cameo 874 01:14:19.439 --> 01:14:24.800 in it and where to find it. So there's a town meeting. There's 875 01:14:24.800 --> 01:14:27.640 a town meeting, and he's in the back of the room, and yeah, 876 01:14:27.680 --> 01:14:31.039 they actually pan across and so he's in the movie. I never knew 877 01:14:31.039 --> 01:14:35.600 that, Yes he does. He did a cameo. And then he just 878 01:14:35.760 --> 01:14:42.640 told me that it was a very loose hollywoodization of the story, and he 879 01:14:43.239 --> 01:14:46.239 you know, he was happy that it got attention. But you know, 880 01:14:46.600 --> 01:14:51.399 the core story is good. They just played Lucy Goosey with a lot of 881 01:14:51.479 --> 01:14:56.239 the facts. Yeah, and the fact that you know, he thought he 882 01:14:56.399 --> 01:15:00.159 was on board for such a short period of time and five days he was 883 01:15:00.199 --> 01:15:06.760 missing, right, five days? And do you agree that you think that 884 01:15:06.880 --> 01:15:13.720 it's a solid story. I mean solid to me. I tell everybody that 885 01:15:14.000 --> 01:15:17.960 the Travis Walton story is in the top three, if not number one. 886 01:15:18.640 --> 01:15:24.000 And you know, I'm a believer in hypnotic aggression up to a point, 887 01:15:24.560 --> 01:15:27.000 and you know, there's so much negative you can throw at it, but 888 01:15:27.119 --> 01:15:32.520 think about it. A hypnotically regressed memory is legally admissible in a court of 889 01:15:32.640 --> 01:15:38.920 law. So if if you know, if you're trying to come up with 890 01:15:39.079 --> 01:15:44.359 a detail or more of the core story, that is admissible in a court 891 01:15:44.399 --> 01:15:47.199 of law. So if you think about this, you had seven guys, 892 01:15:48.039 --> 01:15:53.359 one who had the physical evidence, you know, on his body, and 893 01:15:53.520 --> 01:15:59.399 you had six witnesses with absolutely zero to gain and everything to lose, and 894 01:16:00.319 --> 01:16:05.000 one of them passed multiple detector tests. You know the strength of that story 895 01:16:05.359 --> 01:16:10.720 and as far as I'm concerned, is is irrefutable. And then look at 896 01:16:10.760 --> 01:16:16.520 how hard people like Philip Ass tried to flunk that story. Yeah, yeah, 897 01:16:16.600 --> 01:16:20.079 Philip no class, Yeah, I call him Philip Ass and others. 898 01:16:20.399 --> 01:16:25.039 You know, if it if it didn't have any basis, they wouldn't have 899 01:16:25.079 --> 01:16:28.399 wasted their time. I mean, they offered a guy ten thousand dollars and 900 01:16:28.840 --> 01:16:32.319 you know they they yeah, they did everything they could. So you know, 901 01:16:32.439 --> 01:16:38.279 the old smoke and fire adage definitely applies here for me, it's slam 902 01:16:38.439 --> 01:16:43.920 Dunk slam Dunk City. Yeah yeah. Um. Also, you know when 903 01:16:43.960 --> 01:16:46.399 I talked to him about being regressed, he was regressed one time, I 904 01:16:46.479 --> 01:16:49.439 do believe, and he said that he never wanted to do it again. 905 01:16:49.600 --> 01:16:54.560 He's scared to do it again. If that's if I if I have my 906 01:16:54.680 --> 01:16:57.279 facts right, I do believe that's what he told me. It may have 907 01:16:57.359 --> 01:17:00.840 been someone else. Do you know what about that situation about him being regressed. 908 01:17:02.279 --> 01:17:08.760 I understand he's been regressed at least once, and I never heard the 909 01:17:08.800 --> 01:17:13.760 fact that he wouldn't do it again. But knowing what I know about regressions 910 01:17:13.800 --> 01:17:16.600 and what comes out, people actually relive that. I mean, you can 911 01:17:17.119 --> 01:17:21.960 you know, ever, if you can find um, John Burrows regressions. 912 01:17:23.039 --> 01:17:27.800 I think Lynda Moulton how had him when John Burrows was being regressed. It's 913 01:17:27.920 --> 01:17:30.600 scary. You know, he's a Randelshom witness. He was out there, 914 01:17:30.119 --> 01:17:34.399 he was shaking, he was he you know, Peniston was near that also, 915 01:17:34.960 --> 01:17:39.680 So you know, these people are reliving it. And I'll tell you 916 01:17:39.800 --> 01:17:44.039 this about Travis. I maybe had a handful of conversations with him in my 917 01:17:44.199 --> 01:17:46.319 life. The longest was the day I spent with him. I literally spent 918 01:17:46.399 --> 01:17:50.039 an entire afternoon. We went to dinner that night. He came back to 919 01:17:50.159 --> 01:17:55.039 my room after dinner. We had coffee and tea. We chatted for an 920 01:17:55.079 --> 01:18:01.159 hour. But every time I see him, look in his eyes and he's 921 01:18:01.199 --> 01:18:06.520 reliving that every moment, and there's a lot of there's a lot of pain 922 01:18:06.640 --> 01:18:13.640 there. Um and you know, he's he has told me that he there's 923 01:18:13.680 --> 01:18:16.920 been many years where he wanted to just step away from this and and you 924 01:18:17.039 --> 01:18:20.880 know, kind of put it on the back burner and and not have anything 925 01:18:20.920 --> 01:18:26.399 to do with it. But he also gets involved with people online that are 926 01:18:26.479 --> 01:18:31.399 bashing him. He'll directly get involved in reply to you know, some people 927 01:18:31.479 --> 01:18:38.399 trying to debunk the case, which I think is that must be hard to 928 01:18:38.479 --> 01:18:42.239 do for him, because you know, you get involved with people that are 929 01:18:42.319 --> 01:18:45.760 bashing you, like trolls. You know, I some trolls. Sometimes I 930 01:18:45.920 --> 01:18:49.399 just let them do their thing and let them go, you know, forget 931 01:18:49.439 --> 01:18:55.159 about them. But anyway, the lines are open, and for those uh 932 01:18:55.560 --> 01:18:58.079 of you on YouTube, you can see it up on the screen the phone 933 01:18:58.159 --> 01:19:01.960 number eight five five four seven two five four eighty three. If you're over 934 01:19:02.000 --> 01:19:08.000 at KGr A Radio. That number one more time is eight five five four 935 01:19:08.159 --> 01:19:11.520 seven two five four eighty three. If you have a question for our guests, 936 01:19:12.159 --> 01:19:16.119 feel free to call in. So you spent this time with Travis, 937 01:19:16.439 --> 01:19:23.760 and did you You said that the tree, the tree stumps, that is 938 01:19:23.840 --> 01:19:28.479 something that you because I had heard about that when it happened when they discovered 939 01:19:28.520 --> 01:19:34.479 those tree stumps and the unnatural formation of the rings. Was that something that 940 01:19:34.640 --> 01:19:39.359 you actually discovered or did they find it before and just want you to photograph 941 01:19:39.439 --> 01:19:45.079 it. I had discovered that through my research. Somebody else had discovered it 942 01:19:45.319 --> 01:19:48.399 because they cut down and they did, you know, some investigation. But 943 01:19:50.000 --> 01:19:56.840 when they filmed the movie, they did not get any still shots of those 944 01:19:56.920 --> 01:20:01.279 trees, and they really didn't do any kind of evaluation of the site as 945 01:20:01.520 --> 01:20:04.720 as a whole, you know, they just looked at these things as onesies. 946 01:20:05.039 --> 01:20:09.439 And when I went in there, I recognized the pattern and then I 947 01:20:09.560 --> 01:20:13.520 did all my measurements, and Travis pointed to where the craft was, and 948 01:20:13.680 --> 01:20:17.079 so I wrote a report for jen Stein. I forwarded to her said do 949 01:20:17.239 --> 01:20:21.800 with it as you wish, and then it was incorporated a couple of the 950 01:20:21.840 --> 01:20:29.159 photographs and they reused my analysis, but they prettied it up and did some 951 01:20:29.279 --> 01:20:32.600 other graphics to it. And so they took my data and made a story 952 01:20:32.680 --> 01:20:38.359 of it and incorporated it into the movie. So not my original discovery, 953 01:20:38.479 --> 01:20:45.640 but my kind of advancing that into a more solid factoid is where I made 954 01:20:45.680 --> 01:20:50.640 a contribution. I see, we do have a call coming in. Our 955 01:20:50.760 --> 01:20:55.640 screener is not picking it up yet. There is okay, so we're going 956 01:20:55.720 --> 01:20:59.760 to be taking a call in just a second. So as far as that, 957 01:21:00.000 --> 01:21:04.079 as far as that case goes, I think it's a solid one. 958 01:21:04.239 --> 01:21:11.279 Now they were talking about doing another theatrical movie on that, like an updated 959 01:21:11.359 --> 01:21:15.039 movie. Do you have you heard anything about that? I haven't, but 960 01:21:15.119 --> 01:21:18.720 I wouldn't bother. I would get jen Stein's version of the movie called Travis. 961 01:21:19.119 --> 01:21:23.800 It has Travis in it. They're at the site, they've got the 962 01:21:23.880 --> 01:21:27.720 other guys that were involved in it. It's very factual, it's not quite 963 01:21:27.840 --> 01:21:30.640 documentary. It's not the entertainment, you know, the James Gardner as the 964 01:21:30.720 --> 01:21:36.119 sheriff guy coming in, but it's very entertaining, and you know, we 965 01:21:36.359 --> 01:21:43.359 need more of the jen Stein kind of approach and less history channel. You 966 01:21:43.479 --> 01:21:46.600 know, where they've got a storyline and you know that sort of thing. 967 01:21:46.720 --> 01:21:51.560 So I really enjoyed Jen and I would recommend anybody who wants, you know, 968 01:21:51.760 --> 01:21:56.199 like a real easy version to do that. But get Travis Walton's book 969 01:21:56.199 --> 01:22:00.439 Fire in the Sky and you can order one and he'll autograph it for you. 970 01:22:00.800 --> 01:22:03.000 That's right, So order it online, tell him you want an autograph. 971 01:22:03.359 --> 01:22:06.560 But it's a brilliant piece of work. Brilliant. Yeah, and he 972 01:22:06.640 --> 01:22:10.880 has a website for anyone out there you can easily find. Even I think 973 01:22:10.880 --> 01:22:15.000 he even puts his email on his website. He was telling me all the 974 01:22:15.159 --> 01:22:20.039 people that he gets constantly is pretty interesting, are emailing him and calling him. 975 01:22:20.079 --> 01:22:23.760 I think he even puts his phone number on there. I don't know 976 01:22:23.800 --> 01:22:29.039 if i'd do that, But anyway, we have Ryan calling from South Carolina. 977 01:22:29.600 --> 01:22:33.319 Ryan, welcome to the show. Hey Martin, how are you doing 978 01:22:33.479 --> 01:22:38.760 all right? Good to hear from you. Thank you for the T shirt 979 01:22:38.800 --> 01:22:45.119 by the way, it came all right finally, yeah T shirt? Yeah, 980 01:22:45.439 --> 01:22:48.239 oh he wants one. You got a question for our guest tonight, 981 01:22:48.279 --> 01:22:55.199 and Ryan, Yeah, I do. I guess I'll keep my thoughts on 982 01:22:55.319 --> 01:22:59.920 Travis Walton to myself. But anyway, to get back to the right Patterson 983 01:23:00.159 --> 01:23:04.359 deal. I wanted to ask him his thoughts on a hanger eighteen and if 984 01:23:04.439 --> 01:23:13.520 that's in his book, it's not in my book. During my talks I 985 01:23:14.600 --> 01:23:17.159 do do that, I discuss it, and I'll tell you I actually canceled 986 01:23:17.279 --> 01:23:23.359 a talk that was scheduled for the sixth of May in Myrtle Beach. It 987 01:23:23.479 --> 01:23:26.720 was at going to be at the North Myrtle Beach Library. I show up 988 01:23:26.760 --> 01:23:29.680 there every year and give a talk, usually the first week of May. 989 01:23:30.279 --> 01:23:34.960 So check my Facebook page for next year. Anyway, hanger eighteen, here's 990 01:23:35.000 --> 01:23:41.720 my thoughts. I don't believe we need a hanger eighteen for White Patterson and 991 01:23:42.479 --> 01:23:46.600 it's connection to UFOs to actually be true. And here's why. The materials 992 01:23:46.640 --> 01:23:51.119 that they described, the largest piece that was picked up outside Roswell was about 993 01:23:51.159 --> 01:23:56.560 two foot long. Easily you could put that in a briefcase, and anyone 994 01:23:56.600 --> 01:24:00.399 who handled that said that was the biggest piece we found. Most it was 995 01:24:00.720 --> 01:24:03.199 maybe two inches by three inches. So the way it would have gone down 996 01:24:03.359 --> 01:24:08.920 is somebody would have put several pieces in a briefcase. They would have brought 997 01:24:09.000 --> 01:24:13.159 it to the headquarters of the materials lab. They would have said, you 998 01:24:13.279 --> 01:24:17.239 know, we're from this agency. Here's some money, here's the materials we 999 01:24:17.319 --> 01:24:20.520 want you to look at, and we're going to come back in six or 1000 01:24:20.560 --> 01:24:24.720 eight weeks. You tell us when we can come back, and we want 1001 01:24:24.760 --> 01:24:28.119 you to write us a report and everything you can tell us about this material. 1002 01:24:28.479 --> 01:24:30.920 Do you know where it could have been manufactured, what kind of metals 1003 01:24:31.039 --> 01:24:33.880 or fabooks that it was made out of? Just soup to nutch, you 1004 01:24:34.000 --> 01:24:38.800 tell us about it. Those guys in the black suits would have come back 1005 01:24:39.319 --> 01:24:43.439 several weeks later. They would have gotten any of the pieces that weren't destroyed 1006 01:24:43.479 --> 01:24:48.079 in the testing, recollected them, gotten a report, paid the lab for 1007 01:24:48.199 --> 01:24:51.920 their time, and said this is to classified top secret. Thank you. 1008 01:24:53.319 --> 01:24:59.000 You're never allowed to talk about it again. So you really don't need a 1009 01:24:59.199 --> 01:25:06.920 Hangar eight ten for the story to be true. But since you called in, 1010 01:25:09.399 --> 01:25:13.840 since you called in, I will tell you the building that I think 1011 01:25:15.640 --> 01:25:23.279 is Hangar eighteen if there was one. How's that for a deal? Okay, 1012 01:25:24.600 --> 01:25:28.600 okay? What One day I was looking at a white Patterson Air Force 1013 01:25:28.680 --> 01:25:33.439 based map, and I was looking at it north to southeast to west, 1014 01:25:33.479 --> 01:25:39.479 and it was properly positioned on my table, and there was a big hangar 1015 01:25:39.560 --> 01:25:43.359 there that at one time was a temporary hangar for the Air Force Museum, 1016 01:25:44.319 --> 01:25:51.520 and it also houses about a million square feet of Air Force Museum stuff. 1017 01:25:51.560 --> 01:25:56.640 It's it's it's where they store things that are being worked on which will eventually 1018 01:25:56.760 --> 01:26:00.600 make it into the museum. Well, I had to turn the map around, 1019 01:26:01.359 --> 01:26:08.039 and I realized that I was now looking at before I was looking at 1020 01:26:08.159 --> 01:26:15.520 buildings eight, one, nine, and two. And when I turned the 1021 01:26:15.640 --> 01:26:21.800 map around, one of the hangars was no longer designated as eighty one. 1022 01:26:23.600 --> 01:26:30.079 It was designated as Hangar eighteen on the map. So that was on the 1023 01:26:30.199 --> 01:26:36.000 old flight line, And if the material was flown from the Eighth Army Air 1024 01:26:36.119 --> 01:26:42.239 Corps Cores in nineteen forty seven to right Patterson, it would have flown into 1025 01:26:42.279 --> 01:26:45.640 Area B and that hangar would have been one of the hangars, one of 1026 01:26:45.680 --> 01:26:50.439 the best hangers for that bomber, the twenty eight or eighteen or whatever it 1027 01:26:50.600 --> 01:26:56.239 was that brought the goods in to just drive right in. So if there 1028 01:26:56.319 --> 01:26:59.560 had to be a Hangar eighteen, I know what's building it would be. 1029 01:27:00.039 --> 01:27:04.920 But I don't think it's necessary about that. Yeah, they I think the 1030 01:27:05.039 --> 01:27:11.319 significance of eighteen, and it was the fact that it turned out years later. 1031 01:27:11.920 --> 01:27:15.840 One of the rumors about Building eighteen or Hangary eighteen was that it was 1032 01:27:15.920 --> 01:27:17.520 storing bodies, and you know, a lot of people scoffed at it, 1033 01:27:17.680 --> 01:27:26.600 you know, but it turned out years later that there actually were freezing chambers 1034 01:27:26.720 --> 01:27:30.600 in there, and the building managers said it was the test components for cold 1035 01:27:30.720 --> 01:27:34.319 startup and things like that. But that was I always thought that was kind 1036 01:27:34.319 --> 01:27:38.159 of interesting. But yeah, I don't know that i'd buy any of that, 1037 01:27:38.359 --> 01:27:41.000 but I always thought that was kind of interesting. It did turn out 1038 01:27:41.039 --> 01:27:45.479 there were there were freezing chambers in Hangary eighteen. Do you do have the 1039 01:27:45.600 --> 01:27:47.520 you do have the right history, but you have the building lock. See 1040 01:27:48.079 --> 01:27:54.720 there's Building eighteen, A, D, C, D and E. And 1041 01:27:54.880 --> 01:27:59.279 in the middle of those Building eighteen complex, which is owned by the Propulsion 1042 01:27:59.640 --> 01:28:04.840 direct Thread, is a hanger and that hanger is numbered twenty three. So 1043 01:28:05.399 --> 01:28:10.439 despite the fact that the only hanger in that group is in the middle of 1044 01:28:10.520 --> 01:28:15.119 it, it's always been Building twenty three or Hanger twenty three. Yeah, 1045 01:28:15.159 --> 01:28:19.319 that's surrounded by five buildings that have a Building eighteen designation, and that's where 1046 01:28:19.359 --> 01:28:25.079 the confusion comes in. But you're right that Building twenty three did have those 1047 01:28:25.239 --> 01:28:30.880 cryo tanks in order to freeze components. You're absolutely correct. Hey, Ryan, 1048 01:28:32.359 --> 01:28:36.640 Ryan, don't don't don't go yet, Ryan, because everyone has, 1049 01:28:39.079 --> 01:28:42.079 you know, a right to their opinion. So I'd like to hear what 1050 01:28:42.279 --> 01:28:45.760 you were, what your thoughts are in Travis Walton, you mentioned something about 1051 01:28:45.840 --> 01:28:51.840 him, don't be shy. Okay, by the way, before I get 1052 01:28:51.880 --> 01:28:57.920 into Travis, let me see Um it was eighteen f at least that I 1053 01:28:58.199 --> 01:29:03.319 had heard it about. But anyway, actually this building appeared in the classic 1054 01:29:03.399 --> 01:29:10.439 episode of In Search of called UFO Corups in nineteen eighty. Anyway, moving 1055 01:29:10.479 --> 01:29:16.000 on to Travis Walton, I you know, you know, I don't, 1056 01:29:17.479 --> 01:29:21.880 God, how do I put this? Travis? Um, he seems sincere. 1057 01:29:23.119 --> 01:29:26.640 He has a lot of witnesses and everything. But I have the same 1058 01:29:26.800 --> 01:29:32.239 issue with this UFO story that I have with pretty much all the UFO stories. 1059 01:29:32.600 --> 01:29:36.239 And I'm sure you know someone can say technologies the answer I understand that. 1060 01:29:36.720 --> 01:29:41.880 The issue I have is they get kidnapped, they get taken aboard the 1061 01:29:41.920 --> 01:29:46.920 craft. They can breathe, these aliens are they handle their atmospheric pressure they 1062 01:29:47.039 --> 01:29:50.760 say their ears they don't even say their ears pop. When they're taking aboard 1063 01:29:51.079 --> 01:29:56.239 these crafts, they notice no difference in gravity. I mean, it's almost 1064 01:29:56.279 --> 01:30:00.840 like wherever these aliens are from, they have the exact same conditions as the 1065 01:30:00.960 --> 01:30:03.720 Earth. And I've I've always found that a little hard to swallow. And 1066 01:30:03.800 --> 01:30:09.239 I'm sure someone can come up with some kind of technology explanation. You know, 1067 01:30:09.319 --> 01:30:13.439 the aliens put some kind of invisible you know, suit around them or 1068 01:30:13.560 --> 01:30:16.359 something like that, But that, to me, that has been the hardest 1069 01:30:16.399 --> 01:30:21.359 thing of to swallow, and all these stories because I mean, you go 1070 01:30:21.520 --> 01:30:26.079 up on a plane here on Earth in your ears pop. I mean when 1071 01:30:26.119 --> 01:30:28.479 the astronauts, for example, went to the Moon, they are of course, 1072 01:30:28.520 --> 01:30:31.880 we're wearing just endless amounts of protective gear. Otherwise their heads would have 1073 01:30:31.920 --> 01:30:36.680 blown up. Anyway. That's that's just my two cents on those abductions. 1074 01:30:36.920 --> 01:30:43.399 Well, I I find that interesting because I have thought of that as well. 1075 01:30:43.960 --> 01:30:46.239 Ryan, And I've also thought of, you know, how can these 1076 01:30:46.359 --> 01:30:50.520 beings, you know, be here on this planet. You know, for 1077 01:30:50.960 --> 01:30:55.359 here's a good case we have a virus now, but I mean they could 1078 01:30:55.520 --> 01:30:59.520 contact anything that we have here, you know, I mean, that's the 1079 01:30:59.600 --> 01:31:00.920 type of thing things that I have thought of. So I don't think that's 1080 01:31:00.960 --> 01:31:04.079 a silly thing to uh, to question. I think that's you know, 1081 01:31:04.199 --> 01:31:09.760 that's a good point with them. It's a bit more believable because you know, 1082 01:31:09.920 --> 01:31:12.600 they could have, you know, some sort of they could be wearing 1083 01:31:12.680 --> 01:31:16.680 some kind of invisible magnetic field or some kind of some kind of technology on 1084 01:31:16.800 --> 01:31:20.600 their on their belts or something, or some kind of suit we can't see, 1085 01:31:20.720 --> 01:31:27.800 or anything else. But the human being taken aboard. That's the hard 1086 01:31:27.840 --> 01:31:32.079 part to swallow. All right, Well, maybe there is an answer. 1087 01:31:32.279 --> 01:31:34.920 I mean, there's a there is an answer, but what the answer is. 1088 01:31:35.439 --> 01:31:39.680 I have no clue, and I can't I can't say, Um, 1089 01:31:40.199 --> 01:31:44.199 you know, what you're saying is silly by any means. I think it's 1090 01:31:44.239 --> 01:31:46.600 an interesting and a very good point, So I do appreciate it. Ryan, 1091 01:31:48.880 --> 01:31:51.239 And yeah, all right, have a good night. We have another 1092 01:31:51.319 --> 01:31:55.079 caller, so talk to you later. Ryan, thanks for the call. 1093 01:31:57.119 --> 01:32:00.720 All right. Our next caller is Steve from Washington. Steve, Welcome to 1094 01:32:00.800 --> 01:32:09.760 the show. Hey guys. One question I've heard over the years that right 1095 01:32:09.840 --> 01:32:14.119 Patterson did a lot of reverse engineering. Is that true? Is there a 1096 01:32:14.159 --> 01:32:18.960 group Ry Patterson that had been reverse engineering every time they get a Russian plane 1097 01:32:19.119 --> 01:32:26.039 or any other kind of technology. Absolutely. Absolutely, you know I've worked 1098 01:32:26.039 --> 01:32:31.079 in the labs, and you know for many years the Foreign Technology Division they're 1099 01:32:31.119 --> 01:32:39.800 now called NASIK, they did not have much of a native capability to do 1100 01:32:39.920 --> 01:32:42.800 the research. What they would do is they'd say, Okay, you know, 1101 01:32:42.960 --> 01:32:45.520 we picked up a piece of metal, we don't know what it is. 1102 01:32:45.000 --> 01:32:48.680 We're going to give it to the Materials director it and so they give 1103 01:32:48.720 --> 01:32:54.479 it to the lab experts. They you know, find a piece of propulsion, 1104 01:32:54.560 --> 01:32:59.239 they all give it to the propulsion lab. So they have thousands of 1105 01:32:59.359 --> 01:33:01.760 experts just within the Air Force lab. Then you've got the Navy labs and 1106 01:33:01.920 --> 01:33:05.800 Army labs, and you have contractors that you could just give whatever it is 1107 01:33:05.840 --> 01:33:11.520 you found and have them examined it. So absolutely, you know they've done 1108 01:33:11.560 --> 01:33:15.880 reverse engineering from day one. Well, I'm not in the like Roswell or 1109 01:33:15.920 --> 01:33:23.000 at all at all, but that's the story with Roswell the stuff to Dallas 1110 01:33:23.039 --> 01:33:29.800 and then went to write back to be reverse The engineer doesn't that the Foreign 1111 01:33:29.880 --> 01:33:34.159 Technology Division's charter is anything that is in the sky that we need to know 1112 01:33:34.319 --> 01:33:38.600 more about we need to get a copy of it, and then once we 1113 01:33:38.680 --> 01:33:41.640 get a copy of it, we need to understand it, like how to 1114 01:33:41.720 --> 01:33:45.800 defeat it, how to defend it, how to use some of the technology 1115 01:33:45.920 --> 01:33:48.880 that we don't have and put it on ours, how to exploit it. 1116 01:33:49.319 --> 01:33:55.720 So, yes, they're always doing reverse engineering. I'm sure of every aircraft 1117 01:33:55.840 --> 01:34:01.279 that's not ours, including those that are off planet. Yeah. Interesting is 1118 01:34:01.319 --> 01:34:06.079 that should not be a secret, is that it's Steve? Okay, Well 1119 01:34:06.159 --> 01:34:12.039 one other thing you I just you flashed over the Phoenix Flights and you seem 1120 01:34:12.119 --> 01:34:15.239 to scott at the flares, and I'm just curious, is it is it 1121 01:34:15.399 --> 01:34:19.399 your view that that there were no flares on the night of the Phoenix Flights 1122 01:34:19.439 --> 01:34:25.720 event. Yeah, It's like Martin and I discussed, there are too many 1123 01:34:25.800 --> 01:34:32.159 events to be explained, and maybe one video of somebody who was videwing the 1124 01:34:32.279 --> 01:34:39.119 flares the flares would explain it. But the fact that this three mile wide 1125 01:34:39.960 --> 01:34:45.359 V shaped craft was going over, you know, one hundred mile run north 1126 01:34:45.600 --> 01:34:49.800 to south and then south to north, seen by tens of thousands of people, 1127 01:34:50.560 --> 01:34:56.000 could not be explained by a simple dropping flares. And even that was 1128 01:34:56.119 --> 01:35:02.359 weak because when when they did the analysis of flares versus what was captured on 1129 01:35:02.600 --> 01:35:08.760 video, the light signatures were not the same. So it's just two weeks 1130 01:35:08.760 --> 01:35:13.439 of an excuse. The flares can basically explain like three minutes, and that 1131 01:35:13.640 --> 01:35:18.000 leaves like one hour and fifty eight minutes of sighting yet to be explained. 1132 01:35:19.199 --> 01:35:24.319 Yeah, I agree. Well, yeah, Phoenix lice event into two parts. 1133 01:35:24.680 --> 01:35:29.560 There's the eight thirty event and then there's the after ten o'clock event where 1134 01:35:29.600 --> 01:35:34.319 the military went up and dropped a big array of flares at array the size 1135 01:35:34.359 --> 01:35:39.560 that Phoenix had never seen before. That's why the local story was so big, 1136 01:35:40.319 --> 01:35:45.640 and that that ten o'clock flare drop was captured by five different cameras around 1137 01:35:45.680 --> 01:35:48.840 the valley and that's what made the news all over the place, all over 1138 01:35:48.880 --> 01:35:53.880 the world. Yeah, the rounds you see are the flares now? Now 1139 01:35:54.000 --> 01:35:57.439 the the flares. Yeah, they might have made the news, but there 1140 01:35:57.479 --> 01:36:01.399 were dozens of other videos taken had also made the news. So again, 1141 01:36:01.800 --> 01:36:09.000 you know, Flaire stayed up for like two minutes. Okay, so they 1142 01:36:09.039 --> 01:36:15.800 would have to have sixty flare drops, Okay, sixty separate passes. There 1143 01:36:15.960 --> 01:36:19.520 was one flare drop. You've got two minutes of coverage. Explain the other 1144 01:36:19.600 --> 01:36:26.479 hour and fifty eight minutes. I disagree with you vehemently, right, But 1145 01:36:26.600 --> 01:36:30.479 if you watch I know what I saw. There is an actual video of 1146 01:36:30.600 --> 01:36:35.439 the real craft that went over yes thirty that night. Okay, that's the 1147 01:36:35.560 --> 01:36:41.319 only real video. All the other videos are flare drops that took place after 1148 01:36:41.520 --> 01:36:45.920 kind of that's true. Well, I've actually heard the same thing from a 1149 01:36:45.000 --> 01:36:48.520 number of people that have really looked into this. I don't know, but 1150 01:36:48.680 --> 01:36:53.560 I have heard. I've half heard that, Steve, You're not the only 1151 01:36:53.640 --> 01:36:58.960 one saying that, and I know they're saying. You know, some people 1152 01:36:59.000 --> 01:37:03.199 have said, doctor Lynn Katie, a video is the flares. I don't 1153 01:37:03.239 --> 01:37:06.680 really know. I don't want to say, you know, because she's uh, 1154 01:37:06.920 --> 01:37:10.640 but I don't know. But I think it's time to move on. 1155 01:37:10.800 --> 01:37:13.640 We have another caller. Thank you very much for the call, Steve, 1156 01:37:15.319 --> 01:37:19.600 and we have Shane. Shane is calling from Kentucky. Hi Shane, Welcome 1157 01:37:19.600 --> 01:37:26.439 to the show. Hello Martin, thank you for taking the call. I 1158 01:37:26.479 --> 01:37:30.359 would like to ask your guest. I think he said that he lived in 1159 01:37:30.439 --> 01:37:35.239 Ohio. Is that correct? Yes? I was just wondering that you had 1160 01:37:35.279 --> 01:37:42.680 ever investigated or just what your thoughts are on the Lawrence coin case in nineteen 1161 01:37:42.760 --> 01:37:47.159 seventy three. Oh yeah, which case? Is it? The coin helicopter 1162 01:37:47.319 --> 01:37:50.880 case? Oh? Yes, yes, yes, the one up near Akron. 1163 01:37:51.600 --> 01:37:58.640 Yeah yeah, I think so. Yes. Um my son lived up 1164 01:37:58.640 --> 01:38:02.079 there for a couple of years. I tried to find some witnesses. I 1165 01:38:02.279 --> 01:38:06.880 try to get some people from a National Guard to come forward. I really 1166 01:38:08.239 --> 01:38:10.600 because I was only up there for like a couple of days at the time, 1167 01:38:10.840 --> 01:38:15.000 and I had family things. I really didn't break any new ground. 1168 01:38:15.239 --> 01:38:18.920 I really have nothing to report. But I think that's a pretty you know, 1169 01:38:19.079 --> 01:38:27.039 compelling story with you know, a guy who knows his career is done 1170 01:38:27.920 --> 01:38:31.079 as soon as he tells that story. Yeah, as soon as you know. 1171 01:38:31.439 --> 01:38:34.399 You're a pilot and you're saying, I lost control of my copter, 1172 01:38:34.560 --> 01:38:39.079 it flew up two miles and you know we retract or being in this light 1173 01:38:39.199 --> 01:38:43.680 was coming. Any pilot, commercial or military will tell you the minute you 1174 01:38:43.800 --> 01:38:46.520 come forward with a story like that, you're flying a desk. So I 1175 01:38:46.640 --> 01:38:50.880 think just from that standpoint and the fact that the whole crew, you know, 1176 01:38:51.039 --> 01:38:55.520 their stories were consistent to me, it makes it a pretty strong case. 1177 01:38:56.039 --> 01:39:00.319 But I don't have any any unique insight or you know, I didn't 1178 01:39:00.319 --> 01:39:04.720 really find out anything I could add to that any okay, anything else, 1179 01:39:04.760 --> 01:39:11.199 Shane. I think it's a very very reliable case. Now you all right, 1180 01:39:11.479 --> 01:39:14.119 all right, thanks for the call. All right, so we've got 1181 01:39:14.199 --> 01:39:16.880 about five five or some minutes left to the show. Four minutes, I 1182 01:39:16.920 --> 01:39:23.880 guess. So let's jump quickly into the last story that you looked deeply into 1183 01:39:24.319 --> 01:39:28.479 and on the when you and I were off air, I told you my 1184 01:39:28.600 --> 01:39:32.079 thoughts right off the bat is I think Randelsham Forest is a very convoluted story. 1185 01:39:32.159 --> 01:39:36.239 There's a lot of twists and turns and you know, different accounts. 1186 01:39:36.920 --> 01:39:41.159 What did you find when you were looking? Again, you're looking into these 1187 01:39:41.520 --> 01:39:45.279 particular stories as a debunker, trying to debunk them. And in a four 1188 01:39:45.359 --> 01:39:49.640 minute session, what can you tell us about Randelshom Forest. Well, I 1189 01:39:49.800 --> 01:39:55.399 contacted some of the key witnesses, Colonel Hall, John Burrows and Jim Peniston. 1190 01:39:55.760 --> 01:39:59.119 I also went to Rendelsham. I did my look around. I wanted 1191 01:39:59.159 --> 01:40:02.880 to follow their footsteps, so I read everything I could and then I went 1192 01:40:02.960 --> 01:40:06.600 forward and I tried to find the locations where they were. I took a 1193 01:40:06.640 --> 01:40:11.640 lot of photographs. I talked to some local people who had a little bit 1194 01:40:11.680 --> 01:40:15.840 of knowledge, but again I didn't get a satisfactory response like I did when 1195 01:40:15.920 --> 01:40:21.039 I did Exeter and I found real witnesses. So I contacted Colonel Halld. 1196 01:40:21.119 --> 01:40:27.000 I met with him in person. I met with John Burrows, and I've 1197 01:40:27.039 --> 01:40:30.640 had some really good exchanges with Jim Peniston, and so I can tell you 1198 01:40:30.760 --> 01:40:36.279 that based upon all those interactions, I also think that's a top three case. 1199 01:40:38.600 --> 01:40:45.520 I am delighted with Jim Peniston's new book, and I am because he's 1200 01:40:45.560 --> 01:40:48.159 a guy who was in the middle of it. He touched the device, 1201 01:40:48.720 --> 01:40:53.239 he felt it, he drew it, he photographed it, he was there 1202 01:40:53.279 --> 01:40:57.840 with John Burrows. Everybody knows that he was the guy that went forward, 1203 01:40:58.520 --> 01:41:02.079 you know, unlike Larry wall An, who's a bit controversial, whom nobody 1204 01:41:02.119 --> 01:41:06.239 can remember being out in the field. Maybe Bostenza is the exception, but 1205 01:41:06.439 --> 01:41:12.279 nobody can remember him. And you know, you saw that fallout, you 1206 01:41:12.399 --> 01:41:15.560 know, with him being disavowed by his author and everybody. So I've had 1207 01:41:15.600 --> 01:41:19.560 good exchanges with Jim and he's been very open with me. And in fact, 1208 01:41:19.640 --> 01:41:24.159 he and I had planned to get together at Contact and sit down and 1209 01:41:24.239 --> 01:41:30.319 have a chat. But I find his book insightful, compelling. It is 1210 01:41:30.600 --> 01:41:38.560 the definitive book on Reynelsome Forrest. And don't just read the paragraphs you know 1211 01:41:38.800 --> 01:41:46.079 the story. Read the footnotes. They are probably more informative to the reader 1212 01:41:46.439 --> 01:41:49.640 than the general story. You'll get the general story and you'll get all the 1213 01:41:49.720 --> 01:41:55.159 factoids. Go to footnotes. And so Jim and I we still. I 1214 01:41:55.239 --> 01:41:58.960 asked them some questions just about a week ago, you know, we message 1215 01:41:59.000 --> 01:42:02.840 on Facebook and off. Um, I just found out to be a rock 1216 01:42:03.119 --> 01:42:08.960 solid case that's being told by some very rock solid people. And you don't 1217 01:42:09.000 --> 01:42:14.720 need the regressions that they took, which of course our corroborative. But they've 1218 01:42:14.760 --> 01:42:17.760 been very consistent and they're not afraid to be combatitive with each other over the 1219 01:42:17.840 --> 01:42:23.399 facts until they come to some agreement. So I think that's a strength too. 1220 01:42:23.960 --> 01:42:27.199 Yeah. Yeah, no, I find I find all their stories very 1221 01:42:27.279 --> 01:42:32.000 interesting, and um, you know just that there are some you know, 1222 01:42:32.159 --> 01:42:36.880 different stories, um you know, but I know they were also messed with, 1223 01:42:38.359 --> 01:42:41.359 you know, during their debriefings, um, you know, drugged and 1224 01:42:41.479 --> 01:42:44.000 such. So we are at the end of the show. Thank you so 1225 01:42:44.159 --> 01:42:47.520 much. I really appreciate it. It was a pleasure talking to you tonight. 1226 01:42:49.079 --> 01:42:51.960 Thank you, thanks for having me on yourself. All right, okay, 1227 01:42:53.000 --> 01:42:57.399 everyone, so that's it for the show tonight, and so thank you 1228 01:42:57.720 --> 01:43:01.880 so much for h for checking us out, and remember to be back next 1229 01:43:01.960 --> 01:43:12.039 week. Our guest is Our guest is PJ Hughes of the Nimits Case, 1230 01:43:12.520 --> 01:43:15.600 so make sure you come back and check that out, same time as always. 1231 01:43:16.279 --> 01:43:21.680 And I want to thank everyone that helps out with the show. Anyone 1232 01:43:21.760 --> 01:43:27.439 can do that, and over at Patreon we are and guess what next week 1233 01:43:27.600 --> 01:43:31.239 is our four hundredth show, Yes, our four hundredth show, So I 1234 01:43:31.319 --> 01:43:34.239 guess I'll have to give away a T shirt or something, but anyone, 1235 01:43:35.000 --> 01:43:39.920 but everyone, I want to say thanks again and remember to keep your eyes 1236 01:43:40.159 --> 01:43:40.680 to the sky.