Hello, everyone, This is Martin Willis. I'm your host and welcome to
Podcast UFO. My guest this evening is Ray Schamansky and he is a right
Patterson Air Force Base insider. He was there for nearly forty years, and
we're gonna be talking to him about all kinds of interesting things and also his
books where he reveals a lot of this information. Also he looks into some
cases such as the Travis Walton incident, Randelshom Forrest, and let's see the
other one is into an Exeter, So he'll be coming up in just a
minute. I want to thank everyone that supports the show, and anyone can
do that over at Patreon. We have a Facebook page, lots of people
on there. You can go over there at podcast UFO. That link and
other links are on a website. Speaking of that, we also have a
blog by Charles Lear this week. It's a really very long, intense blog
about UFOs and balloons. Go check that out. And that's about it for
me and now my guests, and we were actually going to meet out at
Contact in the Desert, which of course is rescheduled for I believe they're going
right into twenty twenty one. They're rescheduling it for that time. Same for
all of a lot of the UFO conferences. I know that I've spoke with
Alejandro Rojas the other day and the International UFO Congress is the first week I
believe of September, and they at this point they haven't canceled that yet.
It's still it's still on. Um. You know, they will cancel it
if they have to, but as of right now, that is still schedule.
We see what the next several months spring. So tonight, our guest,
as I said, is uh, Ray, I'm gon try one more
time, Shizman. There you are, Ray, Welcome to the show.
Ray, Hey, thanks for having me, Mike. I don't worry.
People have struggled over that name for centuries, centuries, even in Poland.
Right, absolutely, yeah, Ray. Before we get well, let's let's
talk a little bit about your background. Could you please first phill Us in
with your background, and then we'll go from there. Born and raised in
Detroit and went to University of Detroit, got bachelor's of Science and Electrical and
Electronics engineering. Went to work for the Air Force in January of nineteen seventy
three as a cooperative education student and I worked there until my retirement the last
day of September in two eleven. So actually my career spanned thirty eight years
and nine months and five separate decades. Oh wow, And there were you
there right the right Patterson the entire time absolutely I worked. I was actually
assigned to the laboratory Air Force Research Labs. Now it was their predecessors before
they became a Farrell and Congress wanted to row all the labs into one,
but I worked for the predecessor called Avionics Lab, which eventually became the centers
direct to it. And I had spent time on loan to different organizations.
So even though I was there at AA Farrell and my billet as it were,
was at Wright Patterson. At one time, I spent ten years working
for a program for the Undersecretary of Defense for Research and Engineering out of the
Pentagon, and I'd fly there monthly to do reviews. Again, all my
programs and all my money were being massaged and managed at Wright Patterson. And
then I did a two year stint as the wellness director for White Patterson Air
Force Base, and I was responsible for the health and wellness of twelve thousand
civilian employees, and then for three years I was the Air Farrell Wellness Director,
so I was loaned out executive loan program on a number of occasions,
but station at Wright Patterson that entire time. Wow, and your interests are
I listened to? I just tried. I don't have your book. First
of all, you have two books, and they each start out with a
similar title. Right, is that right? Yes? Originally it was called
a series was called fifth These Shades of Grays, which was a play on
words. And then I wanted to make the titles a little bit more in
line with the actual content, so just within the last several months, I
changed the title to Alien Shades of Grays. But the first book is subtitled
Evidence of Extraterrestrial Visitation to write Patterson Air Force Base and beyond, and we
can get into a description of that later than The following book, which which
released about a year ago this time, is Victorious Secret Truth, and it's
a story of three generations of alien contact. Wow. End up? How
long have you had an interest in this topic? Actually, my very first
week reporting the right Patterson Air Force Base as a co op student. Now
you can imagine I'm nineteen years old, I'm kind of scientifically focused, and
I'm assigned to an office and they assigned me a mentor. He's a mid
level civilian, so this is he's probably a GS eleven. And there were
three buildings. They composed one large building, but there were two story executive
offices, and in the middle was a huge hangar you know, informally with
airplanes and people, you know, doing that sort of thing. And my
mentor says to me, this is January nineteen seventy three. He said,
we're going to cut through that empty building and we're going to buy you a
candy bar, kind of a welcoming gift. So we stepped down into this
hangar and he turns to me and he kind of casually says, have you
heard about our aliens? Now, you know, the two story buildings that
were the bookends of the large complex. We're kind of nice, you know,
for government buildings. But we step into this dark, unused hangar and
as he's huge, you know, super thick curtains on him and it's very
dark, and this guy that I only know for a week turns to me
and says, have you heard about our aliens? So I'm kind of like
whoa. So it's a two hundred foot long walk, you know, to
get to the other side. And um, he started telling me about this
crash out west and how it had a machine that had occupants and they were
brought here to write Patterson. And you know, that's where the conversation left
by the time we got into the Greasy Spoon, which is where we got
the candy bar, and that was like my baptism into write Patterson's connection to
this whole alien thing. So it's been a long time ago, now,
was he was? He? Was he really like just trying to bust your
chops, you know, because you were new or or what did you get?
What were your feelings right after the bat Did you think this guy is
just you know, um, you know, just kind of trying to break
me in? And you know, uh, hayes me a little bit because
I just started, uh, you know, what were your thoughts? I
think it a little bit of that. But at the time, you know,
this was nineteen seventy three. Project blue Book had been there for twenty
two years, along with its predecessors Sign and Grudge, So the history of
Right Patterson hosting Project blue Book was well known. There was the TV show.
A lot of focus was put on that project by the local press,
the media, television. You know, there were crews always trying to come
out to do you know, little bits for the news. So it's very
well known that connection was well, very very well known. So I think
it was kind of something that they were proud of that, you know,
it had international fame. So that story, you know, that connection helps
elevate everybody. And then again I think it was a topic that many of
them were interested in. Al was an intellectual and in fact, you know
there's gus is like grade one to grade fifteen. If you get congressional approval,
you get to become a civilian at the flag rank, so you're the
equivalent of a general or an admiral. Believe it or not. Al went
on to become a member of the SCS. So when he retired, and
he had worked for many years at the level, he was actually the level
of the flag officer. So this was not a dummy guy that was telling
me about this. So I didn't know he was going to eventually attain the
highest rank that you could ever attain as a civilian. But it kind of
tells me in retrospect that you know, the guy was thinking about it.
He was an intellectual and you know, those are the kinds of things that
they talked about around the water cooler. Yeah. Now, if there were,
in fact, you know, aliens there, first of all, that
would be something that would be surely classified. And this is what I'm just
getting at. You know, when you talk about our conversation like this,
That's why I asked you, you know, was he busting your chops,
you know, off the bat. But this, this type of information would
definitely be classified and you know, would not be able to be you know,
he would not be able to talk to you about it if if he
had was told this is classified top secret, you can't you know, discuss
this. So so what did you think? Well, I think now that
he was a mid level engineer. He and a lot of the guys that
I eventually wound up talking to, like Doug and Accounting and all those guys
that you know, he regularly lunched with, and they kind of drew me
in under their wing. I think it was a topic that they were interested
in. The connection was very very well known. I don't think any of
them were ever read into the program. Obviously, because that was not the
type of office. We were more of a you know, management kind of
computer support office that very first session that I was there. So I'm thinking
that those guys were very interested. They were soaking up all the news.
They were probably reading the books and that sort of thing. But I think
very few people on the base would have actually had hands on knowledge of what
was really going on there right right, And I'm sure the topic Roswell didn't
come up as far as you know, I mean, a crash out west
something like that, I understand, But you know that that topic was kind
of I don't want to I want to say more or less obscured for many
years until Stan Freedman back in nineteen seventy eight, I think it was,
was it seventy eight, I can't really remember when it was. Yeah,
I think he got Marcel to talk in seventy eight. Yeah, But I
mean in between, you know, Roswell kind of faded away real quickly,
right after the incident itself, when it was passed off as you know,
a weather balloon, and just people kind of moved on from there. Of
course, there were a lot of UFO sightings right after that, but still
that was kind of obscure for many years. Did the word Roswell ever come
up before nineteen seventy eight that you're aware of, you know, I would
say no. And the way to check is buy a copy of my book
and read it, and you'll find out that. I don't believe I mentioned
Roswell in the book. I believe the quote that I remember is is he
said that there was a crash out west. Now here's what I did.
You know, you know, there are moments in your life where like you
almost get into an auto wreck, or you know, the birth of your
first child or whatever it is. There's moments that you don't really forget,
and you may be a little hazy on some of the details, but the
core story is going to stay with you. So I found Al and communicated
with him. He suggested I write him a letter, and I did,
and what I wrote him in the letter was my recollection of our conversation that
day. And Al got the letter and I said, all, I'm thinking
I'm going to write a book, but and I want to put this in
there so you are free to a just anything you want, anything, and
if it's reasonable, if your recollection is strong, I'm going to make the
changes. Well, he sent what I sent him, He sent my letter
back to him, and he wrote a thing and he says, uh,
you know, Ray, as you know, I retired as a flag level
civilian and I can't allow you to use my last name. And any changes
are in the text. Thank you for for you know, remembering. And
I went to the sheets of paper. I think it was maybe three three
and a half. And the only place he made a change is he wrote
in there and I said something about the aliens and their records, and he
said, I can neither confirm nor deny that there were aliens. That's the
only substantial change he made to the entire dialogue. So, and he's a
pretty thorough guy. He had to be. He was a member were the
Senior Executive Service. He was. He was you know, those guys make
big decisions all the time. So I think he gave a careful consideration and
his recollection was as good as mine. And he only made that change.
And so you know, I have that as my physical evidence of my communication
with him on that topic. But again, there was never a mention of
Roswell. It was like there was a crash out West and that's the way
I wrote it up. Yeah, yeah, and that's that's good. That's
good to hear. Um. So when you worked there and you, um,
did you just go do you remember, like what type of impact that
had on you? Was this something you just kind of tabled and then uh,
maybe discussed it with people later on? How did that go? Well?
I initially wanted to check out al because all it always I want to
say, a loose cannon. You know, he was his own guy,
and you know, he didn't he didn't dress the part like a lot of
people did. He did crazy things like he showed up every day with a
briefcase and the only thing he had in his briefcase was a sandwich for lunch.
But he wanted to look the part, and everyone went laughing. There
goes out with his briefcase. And so I found out, you know who
was lunching with him once in a while. He didn't invite me in,
And we go to a place called the Airway in across from the base,
and there was Doug and I can see another guy with dark hair whose name
I can't remember. I know what city lives in, but there'd be a
handful of folks and when Al wasn't there, I would drop by and go,
hey, Doug, like, you know, Al told me this thing
about this cross in UFOs, and Doug would go yeah, like of course,
And I never got any pushback on it. I got like everybody had
this nice easy knowledge that this was part of base history and they just accepted
it. Or they might go, hey, you know, there's going to
be a new documentary on or a TV show, or go, you know,
I've read this book or you know, lay might chair books amongst them.
So the handful of people I asked at least then, you know,
satisfied me that there was something to it. But you've got to imagine,
you know, I'm in college. I'm electrical engineering. This is not a
pushover, you know, English major course courses. So it really never became
a focus. And I might ask, you know, I got involved in
sports on a base softball and basketball and volleyball and that sort of thing.
I might ask my teammates occasionally, hey, you know, what's this you
know UFO thing. And then of course, you know, in the late
seventies Stanton's book Hit the Fan, and you know, by the early eighties,
they was like, look at sea. You know, we told you,
But again it really didn't become all consuming for me until the phoenix lights.
Oh okay, before we get into that. Um, I always I
always forget that we we do have a lot of new listeners to the show.
I get enough email Tom to know that for sure. So people are
going to may wonder what is the connection between Roswell and right Path. Okay,
the connection definitely. Well, the connection is is that Jesse Marcel was
a major and he was an intelligence officer at Roswell, and they sent him
and another intelligence officer with the rancher mac Brasil and they sent those two up
with Brazil to retrieve the crashed material whatever it was. They brought it back,
they looked at it. Colonel Blanchard was the commander of Roswell and then
he told Walter Houte, who was a public information officer, we've got a
crash flying disc. And Walter Houte then gave it to the Roswell newspaper that
the Air Force had this UFO. Well, the next day they changed their
story and they said it was just a crashed weather balloon. Now fast forward
twenty nine years later and Stanford Friedman gets connected through friends of Jesse. Marcel's
with Jesse interviews and me and Jesse says things like, it wasn't this planet,
we tested it, It was no material that I know, and it
was flown to Wright Patterson Air Force Base for inspection. Then you had the
chief of staff, who was a general up at the eighth Army Air Corps
now that was in Fort Worth, and he was in the office into which
Jesse flew those materials right after the discovery. And this general said that material
was flown on a plane that General McMullen O. McMullen, which chief of
staff somewhat to write pat somewhat mullen McMullan was done with that his private plane
took the rest of it to write. So what do we know? That's
immutable? Whatever the material was, it went to write Patterson. And the
reason it did is the Materials Directorate was at Wright Patterson Air Force Space.
That was the world class group of scientists who knew anything and everything about aerospace
materials. That laboratory had been set up in nineteen seventeen at Wright Patterson,
so by nineteen forty seven they had thirty years of experience. It would have
been the place to go. So the guys who handled the material, the
guys who are responsible for getting it transported, all said it went to write
Patterson Air Force Space, I think. And that's the connection. Yeah,
you know one thing that I just thought of, only thought of just now.
But you know, when they published in the paper that the Army Air
Force had captured a flying disc. But when they talk about when anyone at
all talks about the wreckage, it certainly doesn't sound like a disc at all.
It sounds like fields of debris. Um. You know, maybe they're
assuming that it was a flying disc that burst into this field of debris,
But I don't know. I just thought of that because, um, that's
all you ever hear about the crash site. It was just like, um,
you know, a hundred yards of or more of debris just scattered around.
Um. They never, as far as I know, they never really
captured any disc like object out of that debris. I hear you. And
the debris was scattered about a half mile long, oh, half mile and
a half mile and and and and you know, a thousand feet wide.
And the witnesses, Marcel said it didn't look like an object. It hit
the ground been dragged and went into pieces. Looked like something exploded in the
air and then fluttered down, because that's just the way the debris was scattered.
On the other side, there are witnesses who say, well, there
were sticks and whatever. Then you flip flop again. The guys who are
supposedly hand on witnesses, like Marcel said, we couldn't tear it, we
couldn't bend it, we couldn't burn it. We hit it with a sledgehammer,
we crushed it. It came back like today's knitt and all material would
do. So it exhibited properties that we're not consistent with the weather balloon explanation.
So you've got you've got data on both sides that doesn't die, but
you also have enough data on the side of a crashed object that makes it
possible. Also, there was a story floating around and you know, you
don't hear this all the time as part of the story, but something like
sixty miles away or something like that was another object that if possibly was related
to this, that was found, like the size of a Volkswagen bog.
These are just things that I remember, and the bodies supposedly were there,
and you know, I believe Stanton Freedman thought that that could have meant that
it was a mid air crash between two vehicles. I believe those were uh
you know, on paraphrasing, but something that he believed that was about.
It's confusing, you know. As the years go by, Um, you
know, Roswell can turn more into a myth than anything else. You know,
as far as the story goes. Who knows what it will become eventually.
But as of right now, there's a lot of a lot of stories.
It's really hard to figure out what the facts are in this case,
especially since you know, the witnesses are long gone, or almost all of
them are. There's one or two living at this point, I believe.
Interesting. Yeah, have you ever actually gone to that area? I looked
into that. Yeah, um, I understand with my metal with my with
my metal detector. Oh you actually went to the site. Sure? Oh
wow, yeah, I know a lot of people have. Um, how
did they is that marked off? How do you how do you find it?
Is it just through a GPS or something? The Sci Fi Channel has
put a marble marker on top of the little n bill there. Yes,
they did a program and then they planted the marker. The problem is is
that, um, in order to get to the site, which is owned
by like the National Park Service, you have to go through private property and
unless you get permission, UM, the ranchers ten to shoot you because if
they have their cattle in that field, you have to go through the field.
And you know, people have left the gates open and the cattle have
gone down the road. So it's really hairy. It's a hairy place to
get to. And if you go through the National Park or you know,
whoever owns it for the government, it's like a forty mile drive over the
roughest roads ever, so it's not easy to find. Yeah, And so
this is I would assume that people are going to try to get there a
lot over the years. But so you have to, like, if someone
plans to actually go to that site for your instance, for yourself, what
did you have to do. We've only got about a minute before we go
into break no comment. Well, I had to stretch it out. Okay,
Well I can tell you this. I can tell you this. I
detected metal on the site, but I did I did not dig it.
I did not excavate it. And is that a sell? Is that a
taboo thing to do. I mean, do they say no digging. I
think the guy, last guy who admitted to taking stuff off the property,
they tried to take his stuff away and oh yeah, to fight it.
Yeah, the guy who's found New Mexico State or University of New Mexico or
somewhere. I'll I can't recall his name offhand, but I'll look it up
here at the break. Yeah, but they'll hassle with those people. Yeah,
yeah, I remember, I remember that whole story. That was a
couple of years ago. All right, everyone, so we're ready to go
into the break. So this is Martin Willis, My guest is Ray Shusmanski,
and we'll be right back right after these messages. Yeah. So we
were just finishing up on Roswell and let's move on to some of the stories
that you you cover. You actually, I believe you go in as a
skeptic. Well. Um, for my new book, it's a story of
three generations of contact. And the grandmother is in her mid fifties, and
she has a daughter, and that daughter has a son, and Victoria is
her name, and so we name the book Victorious Secret Truth. Now,
when somebody tells you that they've had contact with creatures that they don't quite understand.
You ask yourself, how do I find evidence? So I'm a former
research scientist, That's how I spent my career, and so I'm trying to
find facts so I can move forward. So on the physical end, what
we decided to do is we looked at anything medical, and so Victoria gave
me information that could be backed up by medical records that would indicate that perhaps
there were some pregnancies there that never came to term, that in fact,
her ags were being taken from her ever since she was a small child.
She has a scoop mark much like many abductees have that looks like about the
size of your pinkie, the little top portion and you could stick the bab
was part of the pinkie and there many abductees have those scoop marks. So
we looked at the physical evidence. Then Victoria has had four hypnotic regressions with
three of the world's best hypnotic therapist, doctor Leo Sprinkle, who wind up
eventually reading My Manused Gripped and wrote the foreword for the book. Doctor Sprinkle
has regressed thousands of admitted abductees. The second person who did a regression of
Victoria was Barbara Lamb. Barbara was famous for her regressions. She's also done
thousands of people. The third person who regressed Victoria, I'm drawing a blank.
This is really crazy, Avon Smith. She's going to kill me.
So doctor Sprinkle did two of the regressions, Yvonne did one and Barbara Lamb
did one. Now what I did as I was reviewing the information is I
had discussions with Van Smith, with Barbara Lamb and with doctor Sprinkle and brought
them kind of into this, you know, discussion, circular discussion about Victoria.
I asked them questions about being able to fool three world class hypnotherapists,
what they thought of their sessions with Victoria, their analysis of it. Victoria,
let me share sessions that you know, Therapist A got to see therapist
B and C and round Robin so that they could all see what was happening.
And you know, I got the thumbs up that this this therapy,
this this regression, all of these are consistent. The story is consistent,
and in some cases the therapist asked these tricky questions, like Victoria would say
the aliens were green and intentionally. Doctor Sprinkle would say, tell me about
these blue aliens, and immediately Victoria would say, no, they were green
aliens. And there are circumstances of each time these therapists did that as kind
of a check to see if the story could be influenced, and in those
sessions she was airtight. And I tried doing the same thing. I had
over forty hours of interviews with Victoria, and trust me, I asked her
a loaded question, I'd slipped things in. She never made a mistake,
she never contradicted herself. It was clear as a bell. So as far
as a witness is concerned, my confidence is soaring in Victoria's story. So
the book focuses a lot on her. And then she has a grandson,
and her grandson's now about eight or nine, and her grandson has had visitors
that he drew pictures off for her and that he described conscious memories of what
they did to him when they visited him, and those visitations with him continue
today. Wow, and so you said three generations and you were you able
to speak to all three of them? Are you saying the daughter is currently
not cooperating. Yeah, she doesn't want to hear it. She doesn't want
any part in it, and I just got to respect that. Yeah,
okay, But so through the say her mother, her mother says, m
yes, she has talked about it or she doesn't want to be interviewed.
How did that? How did that go? From whose perspective? I'm just
saying, how did you know that she was part part of this as far
as the abductions or whatever if she didn't want to talk about it. Yeah,
well, you know, you talk to the mother and you get some
answers, so I see, and they were very, very very limited.
So at this point, this point, I know, I know it's a
certainty, but you know, I'm respecting her privacy. Sure. And when
the grandmother or the first generation, when did she when did these things start
happening to her? What year? This would have started in the late sixties
when she was actually living outside Cincinnati. And the fact of where she lives
is a kind of a cornerstone of the story because she was a young girl
of about four or five when she got what she referred to as her alien
scoop. Even when she was a youngster, and she remembers visitations of entities
in her room, and she actually has conscious memories of seeing a spaceship where
she was young. Yeah, you know, there's not a lot of people
that will talk about things happening back at that time, but there are a
few, you know. I mean, that's back when the Betty and Barney
Hill incident happened. That's also there's also been other situations. For instance,
Kathy marden Law has told me who she is, the niece of Betty Hill,
and she was saying that it was generational, there were some things that
were happening generational in her family. I believe she said it was her either
a mother and maybe her possibly her grandmother that had some of these experiences.
I hope I don't get that wrong, but I do believe that's what she
told me. So it is that always has been an interesting aspect. I've
been on the fence a lot of times on some of these so called abductions
or encounters experiencers. But it is interesting how it seems to be a generational
thing. And if you had to speculate, I know you have a science
background, speculation is not what a lot of scientists want to do. But
what would you speculate would be the reason why it would be generational? Well,
I think they chose the first person, maybe because of their environment or
genetics. Let's take Victoria for example. There was a place in southern Ohio,
just north of Cincinnati called National Lead of Ohio. It was also called
Fernald and they made enriched uranium products for the nuclear weapons program. Unfortunately,
the contractors were not paying attention to what they're doing, and they eventually discovered
that the people who ran that plant spewed over one million pounds of radioactive waste
into the air, the ground, and the water. Victoria, Victoria,
And you can look up at National if you look up at just type in
NLO and nuclear. It was the worst nuclear environmental I don't want to use
the word accident event in this country's history. The cancers that have been caused
study studies have been done are astronomically higher, the cases per capital than they
should be. Uh, it's it's it's it's incredible. But Victoria, who
only lived five miles due west of the Fernald plant, now her mother worked
at the Fernald plant and all the workers were exposed. Her mother died of
a radiologically induced disease, and her brother also died at an early age.
I won't speculate on his death, but I think if if I had enough
time, I could probably tie it back into the fact that he was in
his mother's womb while she was in the factory, and so is Victoria.
Now imagine you're you're somebody who's trying to find a human being who appears to
be not immune but not as affected by nuclear radiation as the average human,
as appears to be the case with Victoria. So now you're somebody from you
know, another planet, and you go, well, we really need to
create hybrids who have some self genetic protection against this radiation thing. So Victoria
would be one of those, because in one of her her regressions, the
entity that's got her on the table and is examining her is telepathically asking her,
why are you so healthy and your mother and your brother were not.
It's a huge clue as to why Victoria may have been chosen. So now,
genetically, you've got a good baseline subject to start with somebody who may
be not as affected by all that stuff that blew out of the NLO plant.
So I'm just guessing, you know, it's an educated guest based upon
all the research I did on Victoria or family, their history, their medical
history, that that may be the reason that she was selected, that she
turned out to be healthy despite the fact that she was downwind of this stuff
for her entire childhood while that plant was active. Now you say down wind,
doesn't the wind typically go from west to east? And that she's five
miles east of the plant east. I thought you said west. I'm sorry,
Now, okay, if I did say west, I would have said
the plant was five miles west. But yes, she was down wind.
And I've checked all of the weather patterns and stuff, and you know,
if you look at the weather, it's from where the wind actually blows.
Um, it's about forty five percent from the west, and then the rest
get divvys up, you know, southwest through to a northeast. Yeah.
Yeah, wow. Um. Now this is totally off topic, but just
quickly, did they ever really clean up that horrible disaster? Is that all
cleaned up at this point? Yes? And then they developed a piddly squad
diddly squad amount of money they're paying these people, and you know, if
they're long dead, the relatives aren't getting anything. You know, we actually
I know who the attorney is for the class action shoe to contact of them.
I've chatted with him, but I cooked him up with Victoria to see
if anything could be done. Nothing they could do. Yeah, so it's
a travisty all the way around. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So what
was your kind of your conclusion? So you think something really did happen to
this family and something's actually continuing to happen to this boy. How old is
he now? Oh? I would say I'll be eight or nine. Oh
really started that started when he was about four? Wow? Wow that's something.
And uh so your other book, um, I believe you talk.
I mean you go into each case. There's three cases you go into as
a skeptic you're trying to debunk them. One of them is the Travis Walton
incident, one is Randelsham Forrest, and one is the Phoenix Lights. Is
that right, Exeter? Oh yeah, that's right, Exeter. But it's
Phoenix Lights that really moved you to decide you were going to look into this.
Is that? Am I wrong? How did I get that right?
Yes? Yes, And here's here's why, Martin. When the Phoenix Lights
came out, they contacted Luke Air Force Base and asked if there were any
jets chasing the UFO, which witnesses reported, and Luke Air Force Base said
no, there were no planes. And then it became flares being dropped,
and then well I became incensed at the response of Luke Air Force Base as
public information officer, because it made the rest of us working for the Air
Force look stupid. It's like, look at Roswell. I can give you
that wasn't even my generation. I don't care, but now you got exciting
where one hundred thousand people have got it on film and police officers, first
responders, you know, everyday Joe's but people who are really sane and don't
want the publicity and they're saying we saw it. And then the Air Force
is going to come out and go, yeah, I mean, I know
we had to. We can't use the weather balloon thing anymore, so how
about some flares. You're all going to buy the flares thing? And they
made some thing up about eight tens and then with bs and at that point
I said, you know what, I'm jumping in with both feet. I'm
going to find out for myself. And that's when I really started to dig
and I, you know, called in some favors. I talked to some
intelligence people in the Air Force, showed them some things, and I got
some very positive, encouraging responses from them. I thought they would stonewally.
That's not what happened. In fact, I think they wanted to know as
much as I did about you know, and it was like, hey,
keep me posted on this Phoenix Lights things. But I got some help from
quarters that I really didn't think I would get any and that's what really got
me going. And I started to do some field research and eventually I wound
up going to Exeter and finding new witnesses and old witnesses and visited the sites
and had some unique, how would you say, advancements there into a story
I wanted to debunk, but I actually kept finding more evidence. Yeah,
just if we can just just one second, go back to the Phoenix lights,
so that I think was March thirteenth or something like that, nineteen ninety
seven, and so it's it is possible that there was some military flares,
but that only accounts for a short period of time. People were seeing these,
you know, this big thing flying over them, some people leaving guessing
up to eight miles wide, you know, or at least miles wide,
which is pretty amazing. And so the military or the air force is saying
that it was just military flares and you were on the inside basically contacting them
because you were able to reach people, and how is your interaction and then
we'll go on to the Exeter story, But how is your interaction with that?
Well, the guy was the guy went public because the public Information officer,
when he issues something, now you know, he doesn't really issue anything.
What happens is is the commander, the basic commander says we've been contacted,
tells the Public Information officer what's the response. They'll contact the public information
people up at the Secretary of Defense's office and say, what do you want
us to say? Here's what we're proposing. Yeah, they get it approved,
It goes back down to Luke Air Force Base and then they do the
release. Well, the Department of Defense has a thing called a Global address
book, So when you on the inside and you're you're there and you've got
your cat card in your machine, you can access everybody's email address. So
I knew who the PIO was. I looked him up on a Global and
sent him an inquiry and kind of got stone walled. And then I got
mad and I go stop making I sent him in here, stopped making us
look stupid. Please, you got to come up with something better than that,
or how about the truth? And totally Stone and I know other guys
in the building did the same thing, because it's like, look it,
we know you've got to make something up, but you're making us look really
dumb, so stop it. And of course now they're going to stone wall
us. They won't talk to us. But at least at least I got
the satisfacts and I got the bark at him at least once. Yeah,
yeah, yeah, that's right. There was this story of a fighter parlt
that went up and looked at it and he was absolutely shaken from what he
saw. And it would be so interesting to be able to figure out who
that was and be able to talk to him. That would be amazing that.
I'm sure that's a situation where you can't talk about it, you know,
for because I'm sure everything was top secret and classified with what he saw.
But anyway, I can imagine anyway for the listener that's just first starting
to listen and find out about this topic in general. Check out The Phoenix
light. There's a lot of really good information online about that. There are
a couple of movies that are are not exactly there. They're kind of theatrical
movies that is not really the real story, but if you look into it
you will see a lot of really good information on that. So we have
just a three minutes we'll start getting into before we go into break. That
is, before before we do, though go into break. You want to
start talking about Exeter. You actually travel to Exeter, New Hampshire. I
did, Yes, I went to the Exeter and I try to find some
of the old the sites that were mentioned in Incident at Exeter written by John
Fuller. Yeah, yeah, and he wrote he wrote that whole story.
Yeah. And as far as witnesses, I know, the main witness died
and I think in two thousand and one or something like that. I can't
remember exactly. When are there witnesses left to actually talk to there? Yeah.
Actually, it turns out that Clyde Russell owned the Russell Farm, and
next door was a man by the name His last name was Dining d I
N I n G. And in between the Russell Farm and the Dining Farm
is a large horse pasture a couple of acres, and on the night of
September nineteen sixty five, Norman Muscarello was walking up Route one fifty going into
Exeter. He's hitchhiking coming from a friend's house, and he got in front
of the Russell farmhouse and up hovering over the garage and the house was a
ninety ft ufo. And I did my research and I found out where that
house was, and I eventually visited that in around two thousand and eight.
And who did I find living there but Clyde Russell's son, Arthur. And
Arthur knew the whole story, and Clyde Russell and his family was made famous
in the book Incident an Exeter. And when we come back from the break,
I can tell you about how I spent the day with Clyde Russell and
the witness that he introduced me to that gave me some additional information on that
particular incident. It's really fascinating. Wow, that's great. Okay, everyone,
we're going to go into the break now and we'll be back in just
a few minutes, so hang in there. So, Ray, we were
when we went into break, you said that you were going to continue.
You spent a day with the sun from insidet Exeter one of the farmhouse,
right, yeah, nineteen sixty five, Norman Muscarello was trying to thumb a
ride as he walked up New Hampshire one fifty on his way back home to
Exeter, and it was very very dark. And if I've actually been out
on that road at the same time of year with no moon and you cannot
see your hand in front of your face. So he's trying to flag down
a ride. He's now in front of the Russell farmhouse and out behind a
tree line pops this object that Norman always called that thing. He never called
it a craft, he never called it a UFO. He always said that
thing. And it had these lights on it. It's like a six five
four three two one one two three four five six, and that's the way
the pattern was. But it was hovering just a few feet over the farmhouse
and the garage. So Norman, thinking this thing's going to fall and crush
him, runs across the road, dives into the narrow channel there and the
UFO backs off. He makes it into Exeter police station. Somebody actually picked
him up. He was hysterical guy. By the name of Reginald Scratched Tolin
is the death. Sergeant Norman spits out this story, and he says to
a guy by the name of Eugene Bertrand, police officer, who had just
come to check in. He said, Jeane, go out there. Take
him to that field, check it out, and you know there's nothing there.
Come back. So they get out there. They're out there for about
five to ten minutes. They don't see anything, and now they want to
head out of that field and come back to the squad car. When that
thing reappears, it hovers less than a hundred feet over the head of police
officer Bertrand and Norman Muscarello. Well. Bertrand, being a highly trained defender
of civil liberties, pulls out his revolver, gets down on one knee,
aims at the craft, and then went no, not today was gone.
It was. He grabs Norman and they run to the squad car and he
gets on the squawk. He goes, Scratch, I see the sink.
I see the damn thing myself. Well. As he's talking to Scratch back
at the office, David Hunt, another patrolman pulls up. They go back
into the field and now all three of them watch as that thing heads out
towards the Atlantic Ocean. Yeah, so that's nineteen sixty five September. Fast
forward decades later. I'm in the Exeter area and I done my research and
I figured out do internet searches where that farmhouse was. Now that'd s you
know, this is almost fifty years later. I don't expect to find anybody
there who knows anything. I get there, and who do I find is
the son of Clyde Russell, who was there all those years ago and who
was made famous in a book. It's his son, Arthur, who's eighty
years old. I tell Arthur who I am. I'm an Air Force guy.
I'm interested in the story. What does he know? He walks me
through the entire story. When you get my book, you'll see how I've
got a photo of Arthur in there, and he's actually pointing where Norman was
standing. He's pointing to the place where that UFO was hovering over their farmhouse.
He toured me through the property, showed me where the UFO was most
likely hiding during the daytime, introduced me to neighbors who had stories but couldn't
come forward for the author, John Fuller because they were in positions of prominence.
One that he introduced me to was the head teacher at the Exeter Academy.
Yeah it is. He knew what was going on but couldn't say anything.
He eventually purchased the Dining Farm. Now why is it important because in
the John Fuller book he describes the horses as were described by the police officer
at Muscarello, making a huge noise in their barns, like they were kicking
it in. When I talked to this former teacher at Exeter, he told
me that when he bought the Dining Farm, the horse stables where the horses
were was still kicked in. It had never been repaired. And indeed,
that night when that UFO was hovering over that farm field, over Norman and
those two police officers, the horses were kicking in their barns. And he
was the first guy to verify that in an interview that I did with him
in two thousand and eight. Wow, So that was one of my revelations.
I was like, yeah, I'm not going to find anything, And
yet I got people who've come out of the woodwork. Yeah, I grew
up. Oh, I don't know, maybe ten miles away from that area.
Vaguely remember hearing about it. I was on the main side, but
maybe fifteen miles away something like that. I vaguely remember hearing something about it,
but never really you know, looked into it. Of course, when
I was growing up, I thought this was an interesting topic, but never
really looked into anything. But now there was a There was something about a
woman at a traffic circle also during that incident, right, someone who stopped
or something. Yes, she was driving down the road and in John Fuller's
book the name of the road is you know defined in there. It came
and hovered over her car. Her car stopped and it floated out in front
of her and she got to witness it for several minutes. Yeah, And
if you go through Fuller's book, there are dozens upon dozens of witnesses.
And in the end Peace Air Force Base is within about ten miles of where
Norman and the police officers saw this. The commander of Peace came out and
try to tell the people who were gathering every night in the field that what
they were seeing were tankers refueling airplanes. Yes, yes, I remember that.
That was their whole reasoning behind you know, their whole debunking of it,
and that didn't fit with any part of this really. I mean,
that's in a high altitude for one thing. You know, when they refuel,
they're not at low aptitude as far as I know. Well, you
tell the three Tell the three people, including two police officers, who saw
this thing hovering one hundred feet and when the air when the Air Force tried
to debunk those two police officers, one of whom was retired Air Force,
when the Air Force tried to debunk those guys, they wrote the Air Force
an angry letter back. I never heard that part. Yeah, yes,
yeah, so yeah, that's a that's a great story, and they they
that's one of the real good ones. And I've gone to the celebration of
that they have is put on by something like the Lions Club or or something
like that. Every year there speakers come in from all over. It's always
fun and it's still not that far to drive from where I live. I've
gone there a number of times, and last time I went stant Freeman and
was there. And you know, as many times as I've heard him speaking
in person and on this show, I always loved hearing hearing him talk he's
great. He was great. He was a big loss. But is there
any thing else you can add about this particular sighting that you found out why
you're researching it? Yes, just that. And I had talked to some
other folks who actually were witnesses to it and tried to avoid the limelight.
None really wanted to talk on record. And I thought that you know the
fact that they hid and the community knew, but I'll tell you a little
incident that happened. I had been there. He asked, that's right,
very good, just to let you know that it was still in the consciousness
of those people. I was there at night and I was investigating. And
on my last night's investigation, I had parked where I had been on a
couple of other nights. When I went to park in my parking place,
which was this little cleared mode area, someone had parked a twenty five foot
long Kamatsu frontloader along with road scraping equipment, brushes and everything else. And
I thought, I'm being warned away. These people don't want me to park
here. So I squeezed my car, my rental car, in between the
front loader and all the stuff they had scattered on that grassy area and the
tree line, and while I was sitting there, I took a photo of
the stuff for posterity. I hear a female voice coming through the window of
the driver's window. I'm not parked the roads on my left, and a
woman's voice says, high. Now. It was so dark, Martin.
I couldn't see in front of my face and so it was just a disembodied
voice. So I said hi, and the lady says, well, what
are you doing here? Now? You imagine my shock. I did not
see or hear a car pull up next to me, so maybe just snuck
up on foot. I don't know, but I couldn't tell because I couldn't
see three feet. So I said quickly, you know, mine's race romancing
if on the air force. I'm here to reinvestigate this thing, and I
want to see what it was like the night More Norman was here. And
she stops. She cuts me off. She said, they're not coming back.
There's nothing here for you to see. You need to leave. Now.
Imagine what's going through my mind. It's late at night or early in
the morning, take your choice. And I have a female voice on a
lonely country single lane road telling me to leave the area now, and I
all right, you got a female voice, but you could be some haulking
person with a gun. I don't know because I can't see you. So
I thought, well, maybe she didn't understand what I said the first time.
So I went through my story again and she cuts me off and said,
they're not coming back. There's nothing here for you to see. You
need to leave. Weird is generally a very friendly area, very friendly people
in the whole area there. So, yeah, that does sound kind of
strange. I had waited years to go there and do the investigation. I'd
spent a couple of years just research again, knowing I had a few days
and exactly what I was going to do now. I grew up in Detroit,
and I'm pretty tough. I spent a lot of time on the streets.
Five brothers, you know, tons of buds in the neighborhood. And
I thought to myself, you know, you've waited all this time to do
this. Are you going to let some disembodied female voice scare you away?
So you know what I did. I got my skinny Detroit butt out of
there as fast as I could. Did you actually, now, if you
go over to Peas. Now Peas has all taken apart and it's you know,
a commercial building. But there's no way you could actually speak with anyone
over there. But I wonder if there was ever a record Now I know
Betty and Barney Hill, who was actually a record at Pease Air Force Base?
Did you were you able to research or try to research any documents on
this as far as no. But but again when you read my book,
my first book, what you're going to find out is is that during the
time of the incident at Exeter, Peace Air Force Base was home to the
five h ninth bomb Group. Does that sound familiar to you. Yeah,
they're the same group from Roswell who dropped the atomic bombs. Well, they
had been transferred to Peas and so Pease was starring nuclear weapons. So if
you want to know what the UFOs were doing around that area at the time,
yeah, a really good guess would be they're checking up on the nukes
that Peace was housing. Wow. Do you know where I grew up?
I grew up on top of a hill called Winter Hill. It was a
property that was a single farmhouse on top of a hill overlook looking the river
and directly looking at Peas Air Force Base, so I could sit on my
porch or sit on the upper hill, and my sisters and I often did
because we saw like weather balloons and stuff like that from there, and we
would watch the planes land over at peace. It was probably as the crow
flies, as they say, probably five miles away, but you still could
see them coming out, you know, landing and flying and anytime there was
the Blue Angels there or something like that. It was a lot of fun
living where we did. And there was also a crash. I remember being
sitting at the dinner table and all of a sudden, the lamp on the
ceiling moving back and forth. It was a crash F eighteen or something like
that. But it's funny when in the sixties, back then, when there
was I guess there was a UFO wave or flap in that whole area.
I do remember sitting out with my sisters on the lawn and we were looking
for UFOs, and then, you know, over the years, I kind
of forgot about all that until I actually had a sighting. But have you
yourself, I ever had any type of sighting A sighting, yeah, UFO
sighting. Yeah, you cut out momentarily there. I've actually had one that
I can say one hundred percent for sure was not ours, and then I
had one at long distance. So the most important one was two thousand and
eleven, first week of December. I was coming back from a physical therapy
appointment because I had been in the car record year earlier, and I was
kind of, you know, on the men. So I was coming home
and we had a really low ceiling, you know, some days we get
a ceiling here a hundred feet and I was coming home and something light broke.
It was a very overcast, low, low ceiling, but a shadowy
thing broke the light of my moon roof. And I only live a few
miles from Mike Patterson, so I'm used to that happening all the time,
of planes coming in, especially now with you know, with the war going
on. And but the thing that struck me is is despite the fact that
the window was closed, my shade was pulled open, but I didn't hear
a noise, and usually, you know, I got to see five going
over car shake, so I thought it was unusual. And I could just
tell by the way the light happened that it was going to come down,
and I could look to the front windshield, and when I looked down,
I'm trying to stop for traffic at a traffic light, and what I eventually
estimated to be a ninety foot wide craft. I got about a seven second
look on it. And in my first book Alien Shades of Grays, there
was a photograph of that intersection, and I took a graphics program and I
drew in what I saw, and I saw the tail end of this craft,
which was about ninety foot long. So that's that's a no doubt.
It wasn't ours. And then a handful of years earlier, I was doing
some satellite watching using the Heavens Above website. It tells you where all the
satellites are going to be. And it was July. It was beautiful,
crisp clear. I was looking to the west and there was this big bright
satellite came in and then I realized it had two objects with it, so
they kind of formed like an angle like this, So you had one super
bright object here the satellite in the middle, and down here was another super
bright object, and they tracked across the sky as one and it was it
was mind blowing, but it was obviously up at the height of the satellite.
But imagine, you know, if the satellite is supposed to be there
by itself, what's next to it? Yeah, and it definitely was not
the space station because I checked all the you know sites, and you know,
it was on the other side of the planet Earth at that time.
So there is no explanation that I have for those three lights. And the
two that were kind of like escorting it were like arc welding intensity wow.
And the other one you know standard yeah, reflective satellite kind of stuff.
Wow. Yeah. I know that. A lot of times you will see
it pretty Sometimes you will see a fairly bright reflection. I'm sure you know
that from the Sun um as a satellites going, but it goes out eventually
or dims or you know, as it's passing through the shadow of our planet.
Um there some of Bobby had sent me. Bobby who's calls in now
and then from North Carolina, had sent me a video that an astronomer took
of the Moon. I'm going to look into it more. It looks pretty
amazing, but I don't know what it is. It almost looks like a
fleet of UFOs going over the surface of the Moon, shadow shadows across the
moon and everything. It's pretty interesting. Again, Yeah, that's been debunked.
I was just going to say, again, there's so much CGI out
there. Is that what it is? Mark D'Antonio, who's a CGR world
class expert, he debunked it in in in um massive, massive amounts of
technical detail. Mark will make your head spend. Yeah. No, I've
known Mark for years. Yeah. Yeah, he went to every aspect of
it and he flat out debunked it. Oh. That that's good to know.
So another one Bobby sent me. This is like the second or third
one he sent me. He's been debunked by Mark. But um, yeah,
that's it's well done. For the average person, you know, that
is skimming through YouTube, and I say watch or be aware if you're looking
through YouTube. This this is how i'd put it. I would say that
UFO videos on YouTube are guilty to proven innocent. Um, that's the best
way you can put it. Really, I wouldn't trust uh yeah, I
wouldn't trust too many of them. Don't. Yeah, don't. Yeah,
don't waste your time. Get a good standard Friedman book, you know,
don't waste your time on YouTube driving nuts. Yeah, that's right, that's
right. UM, so let's let's talk about I don't know you said you
also have Travis Walton in that book as well. I've known Travis for several
years. He's someone that I actually trust and have looked eye to eye and
had a discussion with many discussions with him, and I know you did too,
So let's talk about your situation with Travis. Well, I was at
the International UFO Congress and I met Jennifer Stein and she had just wrapped a
movie Travis Yeah, And I had told her that I was a photographer and
I was going I didn't have the GPS coordinates of Travis's site, but I'd
researched it for a couple of years and I had a pretty good idea that
I could find it on my own. And she said, you know what,
I was going to ask me what I was going to do up there,
and I said, well, I just want to do some research.
I like to go and you know, kind of get the feel of the
site. I want to look around. And she said, well, if
you would do me a face and take some photos of these tree stumps up
there, I know somebody who can help you find the site. So I
said, sure, I could use some help, and next thing I know,
she's yelling over, hey, Travis, get over here. And Travis
was down the other end of the table. We were all eating dinner,
and so he comes up. She introduces me, and a couple of days
later, Travis and I got him in the back of by four by four
and we're driving through the Apache Sitgreaves National Forest and he's directing me right to
the site of his incident. So we spent the very cold February afternoon.
He's showing me where the site was and what tree stumps to shoot, and
eventually the little research project that I did for Jennifer got incorporated into the movie.
Travis, I mean, in fact part of me. Did this have
to do with the unusual tree rings? Yes, the growth is exponentially larger
for each of the trees in the direction of where the UFO was hovering.
It was like a magnet, like it sucked the trees towards there. And
now I did a lot of research about what can cause that, and it
turns out that for any of the reasons, the natural reasons to actually cover
it, the growth would have to be in the same direction. It would
be like water availability, wind, you know several other natural phenomena, but
since they were growing towards a centroid, a center point, you could throw
all of those excuses out the window. So I went up there with Travis.
We spent the day doing that, and then it was really weird.
It was getting laid, the sun was going down, and we're standing at
the point where it happened, and he starts telling me about it. And
he says, he said, could you see that road down there and well
camping He goes, well, it's really not used anymore. He goes,
that was an old logging road. He says, we were coming up that
road. He goes, and we were looking in this direction because we thought
we saw a forest fire. And he's pointing, and he's telling me,
Now, I'd spent that afternoon, you know, with a ladder, scraping
chiseling ice off of these tree stumps and taking photos and logging in my book
and drawing them and you know, doing the researching thing. And he starts
to tell me the story, and it was just like a I don't know,
one of those holy moments. And he's telling me the story about driving
up and how he got out and everything that happened. And there I am
at the site with the guy and he's telling me the story, and you
know, then I get to look him in the eyes and like ask him
a couple of questions and you can see him reliving it right there. And
of course, you know, I include that in a in Shades of Grays
and some other things, you know, because Travis can be a funny guy
and we had some funny things happen, and and you know, there's more
to Travis than just that incident. Oh yeah, and I include a lot
of that in the chapter. I found Travis to be very intelligent, first
of all, and I've had many conversations with him that had nothing to do
with his incident. And uh yeah, he's he's really there. There is
a lot of layers to that onion when it comes to Travis, he's he's
a very very interesting guy. And and uh, you know, I mean
the thing that I I got out of that the whole incident or whatever,
that the two things that I think are really strange or whatever, is the
eyes of the aliens, if you want to call them aliens, whatever they
were. That was the scariest part for him. He said that the eyes
were you know, just staring at him, just scared the heck out of
him, you know, and U and I also asked him, I don't
know if you asked him about the movie Fire in the Sky what he thought
about it. Did you talk to him about the movie, because I know
there were some definite differences in the real story. Yeah. I think what
I remember is um first of all, he told me he had a cameo
in it and where to find it. So there's a town meeting. There's
a town meeting, and he's in the back of the room, and yeah,
they actually pan across and so he's in the movie. I never knew
that, Yes he does. He did a cameo. And then he just
told me that it was a very loose hollywoodization of the story, and he
you know, he was happy that it got attention. But you know,
the core story is good. They just played Lucy Goosey with a lot of
the facts. Yeah, and the fact that you know, he thought he
was on board for such a short period of time and five days he was
missing, right, five days? And do you agree that you think that
it's a solid story. I mean solid to me. I tell everybody that
the Travis Walton story is in the top three, if not number one.
And you know, I'm a believer in hypnotic aggression up to a point,
and you know, there's so much negative you can throw at it, but
think about it. A hypnotically regressed memory is legally admissible in a court of
law. So if if you know, if you're trying to come up with
a detail or more of the core story, that is admissible in a court
of law. So if you think about this, you had seven guys,
one who had the physical evidence, you know, on his body, and
you had six witnesses with absolutely zero to gain and everything to lose, and
one of them passed multiple detector tests. You know the strength of that story
and as far as I'm concerned, is is irrefutable. And then look at
how hard people like Philip Ass tried to flunk that story. Yeah, yeah,
Philip no class, Yeah, I call him Philip Ass and others.
You know, if it if it didn't have any basis, they wouldn't have
wasted their time. I mean, they offered a guy ten thousand dollars and
you know they they yeah, they did everything they could. So you know,
the old smoke and fire adage definitely applies here for me, it's slam
Dunk slam Dunk City. Yeah yeah. Um. Also, you know when
I talked to him about being regressed, he was regressed one time, I
do believe, and he said that he never wanted to do it again.
He's scared to do it again. If that's if I if I have my
facts right, I do believe that's what he told me. It may have
been someone else. Do you know what about that situation about him being regressed.
I understand he's been regressed at least once, and I never heard the
fact that he wouldn't do it again. But knowing what I know about regressions
and what comes out, people actually relive that. I mean, you can
you know, ever, if you can find um, John Burrows regressions.
I think Lynda Moulton how had him when John Burrows was being regressed. It's
scary. You know, he's a Randelshom witness. He was out there,
he was shaking, he was he you know, Peniston was near that also,
So you know, these people are reliving it. And I'll tell you
this about Travis. I maybe had a handful of conversations with him in my
life. The longest was the day I spent with him. I literally spent
an entire afternoon. We went to dinner that night. He came back to
my room after dinner. We had coffee and tea. We chatted for an
hour. But every time I see him, look in his eyes and he's
reliving that every moment, and there's a lot of there's a lot of pain
there. Um and you know, he's he has told me that he there's
been many years where he wanted to just step away from this and and you
know, kind of put it on the back burner and and not have anything
to do with it. But he also gets involved with people online that are
bashing him. He'll directly get involved in reply to you know, some people
trying to debunk the case, which I think is that must be hard to
do for him, because you know, you get involved with people that are
bashing you, like trolls. You know, I some trolls. Sometimes I
just let them do their thing and let them go, you know, forget
about them. But anyway, the lines are open, and for those uh
of you on YouTube, you can see it up on the screen the phone
number eight five five four seven two five four eighty three. If you're over
at KGr A Radio. That number one more time is eight five five four
seven two five four eighty three. If you have a question for our guests,
feel free to call in. So you spent this time with Travis,
and did you You said that the tree, the tree stumps, that is
something that you because I had heard about that when it happened when they discovered
those tree stumps and the unnatural formation of the rings. Was that something that
you actually discovered or did they find it before and just want you to photograph
it. I had discovered that through my research. Somebody else had discovered it
because they cut down and they did, you know, some investigation. But
when they filmed the movie, they did not get any still shots of those
trees, and they really didn't do any kind of evaluation of the site as
as a whole, you know, they just looked at these things as onesies.
And when I went in there, I recognized the pattern and then I
did all my measurements, and Travis pointed to where the craft was, and
so I wrote a report for jen Stein. I forwarded to her said do
with it as you wish, and then it was incorporated a couple of the
photographs and they reused my analysis, but they prettied it up and did some
other graphics to it. And so they took my data and made a story
of it and incorporated it into the movie. So not my original discovery,
but my kind of advancing that into a more solid factoid is where I made
a contribution. I see, we do have a call coming in. Our
screener is not picking it up yet. There is okay, so we're going
to be taking a call in just a second. So as far as that,
as far as that case goes, I think it's a solid one.
Now they were talking about doing another theatrical movie on that, like an updated
movie. Do you have you heard anything about that? I haven't, but
I wouldn't bother. I would get jen Stein's version of the movie called Travis.
It has Travis in it. They're at the site, they've got the
other guys that were involved in it. It's very factual, it's not quite
documentary. It's not the entertainment, you know, the James Gardner as the
sheriff guy coming in, but it's very entertaining, and you know, we
need more of the jen Stein kind of approach and less history channel. You
know, where they've got a storyline and you know that sort of thing.
So I really enjoyed Jen and I would recommend anybody who wants, you know,
like a real easy version to do that. But get Travis Walton's book
Fire in the Sky and you can order one and he'll autograph it for you.
That's right, So order it online, tell him you want an autograph.
But it's a brilliant piece of work. Brilliant. Yeah, and he
has a website for anyone out there you can easily find. Even I think
he even puts his email on his website. He was telling me all the
people that he gets constantly is pretty interesting, are emailing him and calling him.
I think he even puts his phone number on there. I don't know
if i'd do that, But anyway, we have Ryan calling from South Carolina.
Ryan, welcome to the show. Hey Martin, how are you doing
all right? Good to hear from you. Thank you for the T shirt
by the way, it came all right finally, yeah T shirt? Yeah,
oh he wants one. You got a question for our guest tonight,
and Ryan, Yeah, I do. I guess I'll keep my thoughts on
Travis Walton to myself. But anyway, to get back to the right Patterson
deal. I wanted to ask him his thoughts on a hanger eighteen and if
that's in his book, it's not in my book. During my talks I
do do that, I discuss it, and I'll tell you I actually canceled
a talk that was scheduled for the sixth of May in Myrtle Beach. It
was at going to be at the North Myrtle Beach Library. I show up
there every year and give a talk, usually the first week of May.
So check my Facebook page for next year. Anyway, hanger eighteen, here's
my thoughts. I don't believe we need a hanger eighteen for White Patterson and
it's connection to UFOs to actually be true. And here's why. The materials
that they described, the largest piece that was picked up outside Roswell was about
two foot long. Easily you could put that in a briefcase, and anyone
who handled that said that was the biggest piece we found. Most it was
maybe two inches by three inches. So the way it would have gone down
is somebody would have put several pieces in a briefcase. They would have brought
it to the headquarters of the materials lab. They would have said, you
know, we're from this agency. Here's some money, here's the materials we
want you to look at, and we're going to come back in six or
eight weeks. You tell us when we can come back, and we want
you to write us a report and everything you can tell us about this material.
Do you know where it could have been manufactured, what kind of metals
or fabooks that it was made out of? Just soup to nutch, you
tell us about it. Those guys in the black suits would have come back
several weeks later. They would have gotten any of the pieces that weren't destroyed
in the testing, recollected them, gotten a report, paid the lab for
their time, and said this is to classified top secret. Thank you.
You're never allowed to talk about it again. So you really don't need a
Hangar eight ten for the story to be true. But since you called in,
since you called in, I will tell you the building that I think
is Hangar eighteen if there was one. How's that for a deal? Okay,
okay? What One day I was looking at a white Patterson Air Force
based map, and I was looking at it north to southeast to west,
and it was properly positioned on my table, and there was a big hangar
there that at one time was a temporary hangar for the Air Force Museum,
and it also houses about a million square feet of Air Force Museum stuff.
It's it's it's where they store things that are being worked on which will eventually
make it into the museum. Well, I had to turn the map around,
and I realized that I was now looking at before I was looking at
buildings eight, one, nine, and two. And when I turned the
map around, one of the hangars was no longer designated as eighty one.
It was designated as Hangar eighteen on the map. So that was on the
old flight line, And if the material was flown from the Eighth Army Air
Corps Cores in nineteen forty seven to right Patterson, it would have flown into
Area B and that hangar would have been one of the hangars, one of
the best hangers for that bomber, the twenty eight or eighteen or whatever it
was that brought the goods in to just drive right in. So if there
had to be a Hangar eighteen, I know what's building it would be.
But I don't think it's necessary about that. Yeah, they I think the
significance of eighteen, and it was the fact that it turned out years later.
One of the rumors about Building eighteen or Hangary eighteen was that it was
storing bodies, and you know, a lot of people scoffed at it,
you know, but it turned out years later that there actually were freezing chambers
in there, and the building managers said it was the test components for cold
startup and things like that. But that was I always thought that was kind
of interesting. But yeah, I don't know that i'd buy any of that,
but I always thought that was kind of interesting. It did turn out
there were there were freezing chambers in Hangary eighteen. Do you do have the
you do have the right history, but you have the building lock. See
there's Building eighteen, A, D, C, D and E. And
in the middle of those Building eighteen complex, which is owned by the Propulsion
direct Thread, is a hanger and that hanger is numbered twenty three. So
despite the fact that the only hanger in that group is in the middle of
it, it's always been Building twenty three or Hanger twenty three. Yeah,
that's surrounded by five buildings that have a Building eighteen designation, and that's where
the confusion comes in. But you're right that Building twenty three did have those
cryo tanks in order to freeze components. You're absolutely correct. Hey, Ryan,
Ryan, don't don't don't go yet, Ryan, because everyone has,
you know, a right to their opinion. So I'd like to hear what
you were, what your thoughts are in Travis Walton, you mentioned something about
him, don't be shy. Okay, by the way, before I get
into Travis, let me see Um it was eighteen f at least that I
had heard it about. But anyway, actually this building appeared in the classic
episode of In Search of called UFO Corups in nineteen eighty. Anyway, moving
on to Travis Walton, I you know, you know, I don't,
God, how do I put this? Travis? Um, he seems sincere.
He has a lot of witnesses and everything. But I have the same
issue with this UFO story that I have with pretty much all the UFO stories.
And I'm sure you know someone can say technologies the answer I understand that.
The issue I have is they get kidnapped, they get taken aboard the
craft. They can breathe, these aliens are they handle their atmospheric pressure they
say their ears they don't even say their ears pop. When they're taking aboard
these crafts, they notice no difference in gravity. I mean, it's almost
like wherever these aliens are from, they have the exact same conditions as the
Earth. And I've I've always found that a little hard to swallow. And
I'm sure someone can come up with some kind of technology explanation. You know,
the aliens put some kind of invisible you know, suit around them or
something like that, But that, to me, that has been the hardest
thing of to swallow, and all these stories because I mean, you go
up on a plane here on Earth in your ears pop. I mean when
the astronauts, for example, went to the Moon, they are of course,
we're wearing just endless amounts of protective gear. Otherwise their heads would have
blown up. Anyway. That's that's just my two cents on those abductions.
Well, I I find that interesting because I have thought of that as well.
Ryan, And I've also thought of, you know, how can these
beings, you know, be here on this planet. You know, for
here's a good case we have a virus now, but I mean they could
contact anything that we have here, you know, I mean, that's the
type of thing things that I have thought of. So I don't think that's
a silly thing to uh, to question. I think that's you know,
that's a good point with them. It's a bit more believable because you know,
they could have, you know, some sort of they could be wearing
some kind of invisible magnetic field or some kind of some kind of technology on
their on their belts or something, or some kind of suit we can't see,
or anything else. But the human being taken aboard. That's the hard
part to swallow. All right, Well, maybe there is an answer.
I mean, there's a there is an answer, but what the answer is.
I have no clue, and I can't I can't say, Um,
you know, what you're saying is silly by any means. I think it's
an interesting and a very good point, So I do appreciate it. Ryan,
And yeah, all right, have a good night. We have another
caller, so talk to you later. Ryan, thanks for the call.
All right. Our next caller is Steve from Washington. Steve, Welcome to
the show. Hey guys. One question I've heard over the years that right
Patterson did a lot of reverse engineering. Is that true? Is there a
group Ry Patterson that had been reverse engineering every time they get a Russian plane
or any other kind of technology. Absolutely. Absolutely, you know I've worked
in the labs, and you know for many years the Foreign Technology Division they're
now called NASIK, they did not have much of a native capability to do
the research. What they would do is they'd say, Okay, you know,
we picked up a piece of metal, we don't know what it is.
We're going to give it to the Materials director it and so they give
it to the lab experts. They you know, find a piece of propulsion,
they all give it to the propulsion lab. So they have thousands of
experts just within the Air Force lab. Then you've got the Navy labs and
Army labs, and you have contractors that you could just give whatever it is
you found and have them examined it. So absolutely, you know they've done
reverse engineering from day one. Well, I'm not in the like Roswell or
at all at all, but that's the story with Roswell the stuff to Dallas
and then went to write back to be reverse The engineer doesn't that the Foreign
Technology Division's charter is anything that is in the sky that we need to know
more about we need to get a copy of it, and then once we
get a copy of it, we need to understand it, like how to
defeat it, how to defend it, how to use some of the technology
that we don't have and put it on ours, how to exploit it.
So, yes, they're always doing reverse engineering. I'm sure of every aircraft
that's not ours, including those that are off planet. Yeah. Interesting is
that should not be a secret, is that it's Steve? Okay, Well
one other thing you I just you flashed over the Phoenix Flights and you seem
to scott at the flares, and I'm just curious, is it is it
your view that that there were no flares on the night of the Phoenix Flights
event. Yeah, It's like Martin and I discussed, there are too many
events to be explained, and maybe one video of somebody who was videwing the
flares the flares would explain it. But the fact that this three mile wide
V shaped craft was going over, you know, one hundred mile run north
to south and then south to north, seen by tens of thousands of people,
could not be explained by a simple dropping flares. And even that was
weak because when when they did the analysis of flares versus what was captured on
video, the light signatures were not the same. So it's just two weeks
of an excuse. The flares can basically explain like three minutes, and that
leaves like one hour and fifty eight minutes of sighting yet to be explained.
Yeah, I agree. Well, yeah, Phoenix lice event into two parts.
There's the eight thirty event and then there's the after ten o'clock event where
the military went up and dropped a big array of flares at array the size
that Phoenix had never seen before. That's why the local story was so big,
and that that ten o'clock flare drop was captured by five different cameras around
the valley and that's what made the news all over the place, all over
the world. Yeah, the rounds you see are the flares now? Now
the the flares. Yeah, they might have made the news, but there
were dozens of other videos taken had also made the news. So again,
you know, Flaire stayed up for like two minutes. Okay, so they
would have to have sixty flare drops, Okay, sixty separate passes. There
was one flare drop. You've got two minutes of coverage. Explain the other
hour and fifty eight minutes. I disagree with you vehemently, right, But
if you watch I know what I saw. There is an actual video of
the real craft that went over yes thirty that night. Okay, that's the
only real video. All the other videos are flare drops that took place after
kind of that's true. Well, I've actually heard the same thing from a
number of people that have really looked into this. I don't know, but
I have heard. I've half heard that, Steve, You're not the only
one saying that, and I know they're saying. You know, some people
have said, doctor Lynn Katie, a video is the flares. I don't
really know. I don't want to say, you know, because she's uh,
but I don't know. But I think it's time to move on.
We have another caller. Thank you very much for the call, Steve,
and we have Shane. Shane is calling from Kentucky. Hi Shane, Welcome
to the show. Hello Martin, thank you for taking the call. I
would like to ask your guest. I think he said that he lived in
Ohio. Is that correct? Yes? I was just wondering that you had
ever investigated or just what your thoughts are on the Lawrence coin case in nineteen
seventy three. Oh yeah, which case? Is it? The coin helicopter
case? Oh? Yes, yes, yes, the one up near Akron.
Yeah yeah, I think so. Yes. Um my son lived up
there for a couple of years. I tried to find some witnesses. I
try to get some people from a National Guard to come forward. I really
because I was only up there for like a couple of days at the time,
and I had family things. I really didn't break any new ground.
I really have nothing to report. But I think that's a pretty you know,
compelling story with you know, a guy who knows his career is done
as soon as he tells that story. Yeah, as soon as you know.
You're a pilot and you're saying, I lost control of my copter,
it flew up two miles and you know we retract or being in this light
was coming. Any pilot, commercial or military will tell you the minute you
come forward with a story like that, you're flying a desk. So I
think just from that standpoint and the fact that the whole crew, you know,
their stories were consistent to me, it makes it a pretty strong case.
But I don't have any any unique insight or you know, I didn't
really find out anything I could add to that any okay, anything else,
Shane. I think it's a very very reliable case. Now you all right,
all right, thanks for the call. All right, so we've got
about five five or some minutes left to the show. Four minutes, I
guess. So let's jump quickly into the last story that you looked deeply into
and on the when you and I were off air, I told you my
thoughts right off the bat is I think Randelsham Forest is a very convoluted story.
There's a lot of twists and turns and you know, different accounts.
What did you find when you were looking? Again, you're looking into these
particular stories as a debunker, trying to debunk them. And in a four
minute session, what can you tell us about Randelshom Forest. Well, I
contacted some of the key witnesses, Colonel Hall, John Burrows and Jim Peniston.
I also went to Rendelsham. I did my look around. I wanted
to follow their footsteps, so I read everything I could and then I went
forward and I tried to find the locations where they were. I took a
lot of photographs. I talked to some local people who had a little bit
of knowledge, but again I didn't get a satisfactory response like I did when
I did Exeter and I found real witnesses. So I contacted Colonel Halld.
I met with him in person. I met with John Burrows, and I've
had some really good exchanges with Jim Peniston, and so I can tell you
that based upon all those interactions, I also think that's a top three case.
I am delighted with Jim Peniston's new book, and I am because he's
a guy who was in the middle of it. He touched the device,
he felt it, he drew it, he photographed it, he was there
with John Burrows. Everybody knows that he was the guy that went forward,
you know, unlike Larry wall An, who's a bit controversial, whom nobody
can remember being out in the field. Maybe Bostenza is the exception, but
nobody can remember him. And you know, you saw that fallout, you
know, with him being disavowed by his author and everybody. So I've had
good exchanges with Jim and he's been very open with me. And in fact,
he and I had planned to get together at Contact and sit down and
have a chat. But I find his book insightful, compelling. It is
the definitive book on Reynelsome Forrest. And don't just read the paragraphs you know
the story. Read the footnotes. They are probably more informative to the reader
than the general story. You'll get the general story and you'll get all the
factoids. Go to footnotes. And so Jim and I we still. I
asked them some questions just about a week ago, you know, we message
on Facebook and off. Um, I just found out to be a rock
solid case that's being told by some very rock solid people. And you don't
need the regressions that they took, which of course our corroborative. But they've
been very consistent and they're not afraid to be combatitive with each other over the
facts until they come to some agreement. So I think that's a strength too.
Yeah. Yeah, no, I find I find all their stories very
interesting, and um, you know just that there are some you know,
different stories, um you know, but I know they were also messed with,
you know, during their debriefings, um, you know, drugged and
such. So we are at the end of the show. Thank you so
much. I really appreciate it. It was a pleasure talking to you tonight.
Thank you, thanks for having me on yourself. All right, okay,
everyone, so that's it for the show tonight, and so thank you
so much for h for checking us out, and remember to be back next
week. Our guest is Our guest is PJ Hughes of the Nimits Case,
so make sure you come back and check that out, same time as always.
And I want to thank everyone that helps out with the show. Anyone
can do that, and over at Patreon we are and guess what next week
is our four hundredth show, Yes, our four hundredth show, So I
guess I'll have to give away a T shirt or something, but anyone,
but everyone, I want to say thanks again and remember to keep your eyes
to the sky.