1 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:09,039 Hey, what's going on? Everyone? Welcome back to another episode of Adventures 2 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:14,199 in dev Ops. Joining me once again in the studio today Warren Parade, 3 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:18,039 CTO of authors. What's going on? Warren? Hey, thanks for having 4 00:00:18,039 --> 00:00:22,920 me back, Will And last time I promised a fact so you know, 5 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:25,879 I know you were waiting a whole week to hear one. What it was 6 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:29,039 going to be a Google at the edge of my seat. Well, this 7 00:00:29,079 --> 00:00:33,759 is a good one. Actually. Google actually just released a report not that 8 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,719 long, really short, about zero days and I think it's so relevant given 9 00:00:37,759 --> 00:00:43,280 what's happened with the XX compression library recently, and was interesting in there that 10 00:00:43,359 --> 00:00:48,479 I found most interesting actually was that in twenty twenty three there were ten exploited 11 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:55,600 zero days in it hardware vendors. So you can think of these as like 12 00:00:55,679 --> 00:01:00,439 Cisco boxes that are running in your corporate environments. You know, if you 13 00:01:00,479 --> 00:01:02,560 ever thought about, you know, should I have one of these or not? 14 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:06,200 Uh? They do they add security? Now you may have an answer, 15 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:12,480 right. That's cool, especially on the heels of the that exploit, 16 00:01:12,519 --> 00:01:18,280 because I could talk about that for quite a while. But you know, 17 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:22,280 we've got Jose here waiting to jump in. But just for the patience and 18 00:01:22,359 --> 00:01:26,760 diligence of that attacker. I mean, that's just a slow clap from me. 19 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:34,040 Bravo for playing the long game, but meanwhile joining us. Also in 20 00:01:34,079 --> 00:01:40,599 the studio, Jose I Dias Gonzalez, creator of Doku, which this is 21 00:01:40,599 --> 00:01:42,879 gonna be cool. I can't wait to hear this story. I just assumed 22 00:01:42,879 --> 00:01:48,680 that the name came from a Star Wars reference, but Jose is going to 23 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:52,480 set the record straight. Jose, welcome to the show. Thanks for having 24 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:56,480 me. Yeah, I'll just get into the story. Actually, so I 25 00:01:56,519 --> 00:02:01,319 think I'm not the originally Tainer's a guy named Jeff Lindsay there maintains quite a 26 00:02:01,359 --> 00:02:06,040 bit open source and started this I think in twenty thirteen, and so I 27 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:12,280 think the original pronunciation he used was Daku. I never heard this pronunciation until 28 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:17,840 like years later. So I like, for background, Doku's somewhat of a 29 00:02:17,879 --> 00:02:22,680 Herokue clone a Roco being a platform as a service, and so in my 30 00:02:22,759 --> 00:02:25,039 head I was like, Roku okay, Doku because there's a dm front, 31 00:02:25,479 --> 00:02:30,680 which is great, So like I've been mispronouncing it for about ten years. 32 00:02:31,719 --> 00:02:35,919 The other part of this is that the Star Wars reference here is actually pretty 33 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:43,840 good. I tracked references to the project on like social media and various platforms, 34 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:51,680 and about half the time there are references to Doku on like Twitter, 35 00:02:51,719 --> 00:02:55,840 for instance, they're all references to Star Wars because people miss mispronounced Count Dooku's 36 00:02:55,919 --> 00:03:02,039 name. There's one K and two o's. There's also a Korean pop star 37 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:07,400 whose dog is named Doku. He's got three dogs, that's my understanding. 38 00:03:08,039 --> 00:03:13,879 And then in Japanese, Doku is the word for doc. I believe, 39 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:17,159 Wow, if you can cash in on the K pop reference, that could 40 00:03:17,159 --> 00:03:23,719 be huge because I mean that's like that's legit internet traffic right there. I 41 00:03:23,759 --> 00:03:27,840 don't know what that overlap is between like K pop fans and folks with needs 42 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:31,199 like servers, but well there's a there is a thing of preferential attachment, 43 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,960 so like you know, even seeing it or hearing it, even if there's 44 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:38,080 no relation, if you know the small overlap, you'll get those customers and 45 00:03:38,199 --> 00:03:45,159 brand value eventually, So you know, maybe you're doing something right. You 46 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:47,840 got to play the long game. Just look at the attacker for the XY 47 00:03:47,879 --> 00:03:53,719 exploit. The long game pays off, you know'd Yeah, Actually, when 48 00:03:53,719 --> 00:03:59,280 I when I saw the platform, I was thinking docker. So Docku was 49 00:03:59,319 --> 00:04:02,000 where I was going initially because it seemed because like, I think the logo 50 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:05,919 is like the whale or something, right, Yeah, yeah, so the 51 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:12,719 whale logo is actually also another interesting story. I don't actually remember where the 52 00:04:12,759 --> 00:04:15,480 whale reference came. I know that Who's like a long time ago. A 53 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:23,480 lot of their media was like Japanese samurai my references, that type of thing. 54 00:04:23,879 --> 00:04:29,920 A lot of Japanese like top culture references. Sushi kind of made sense 55 00:04:29,959 --> 00:04:30,759 to me, and I was, all right, cool, let's put a 56 00:04:30,759 --> 00:04:35,519 little whale like sushi on his head. At a friend of mine, I 57 00:04:35,759 --> 00:04:40,079 bottom lunch and he designed me a whale logo. And then he said he 58 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:42,920 would never design a whale logo for me ever again. So that's the way 59 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:50,120 up on a picture. I unfortunately am not an artist. If you wait 60 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,959 long enough, you may be able to use the image as a source image 61 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:58,120 with one of the l m's and get image creation going to pop out some 62 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:00,360 you know, the exact same well low go, but in different poses and 63 00:05:00,399 --> 00:05:11,680 backgrounds. Long game, I like this, that's hilarious. So let's talk 64 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:15,639 a little bit about Well now I'm even like, I'm like, how do 65 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,879 I say I do say doc who or do I stick with my name Doku? 66 00:05:19,199 --> 00:05:25,160 Pick the one that you prefer, and then this is the official branding. 67 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,120 Like whatever you say right now, well that is what it's going to 68 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:30,000 be from now on and going forward. Dude, you don't want to trust 69 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:39,120 me with big decisions like that. Look, I'm gonna yeah, I've got 70 00:05:39,199 --> 00:05:42,560 quite a few decades of experience here that show that I am not the guy 71 00:05:42,639 --> 00:05:46,560 you want to count on. No, we'll go with We'll go with Doaku 72 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:53,120 because I think, after hearing Jose's explanation, we've got doctor as a replacement 73 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:57,079 for Heroku, and if you smash those two together, you get Doaku. 74 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:01,959 So that's what I'm gonna try to stay until until I get into the middle 75 00:06:01,959 --> 00:06:04,800 of a sentence and my brain goes, you know what, say it this 76 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:09,600 way, dude, and then I do and butcher it. You broke it. 77 00:06:09,639 --> 00:06:13,600 Really. You know. I noticed that I should never guess on pronunciations 78 00:06:13,639 --> 00:06:16,319 because if I do that, whatever one I guess wrong first is now stuck 79 00:06:16,319 --> 00:06:19,519 in my brain forever. So if I get in one of those situations where 80 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:21,639 I'm like, it could be either way, just like stop, take a 81 00:06:21,639 --> 00:06:28,600 moment. Look it up and then commit because you know otherwise you're broken for 82 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:34,319 life. Yeah. So, so Daku is an open source past alternative to 83 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:41,040 Heroku. And if you're not familiar with Heroku, it's a hosting platform that 84 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:46,839 makes it just incredibly simple to launch and build your app. I've used Heroku 85 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:51,199 multiple times in the past, and I that used to be like my go 86 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:56,000 to thing for all the early stage startups that I worked with. I was 87 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:59,560 like, just launch on Heroku. It will get you so far down the 88 00:06:59,639 --> 00:07:05,120 road without your infrastructure becoming like a thing in your company that it's a no 89 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:11,399 brainer solution. And then I think in the last year or so, I 90 00:07:11,439 --> 00:07:14,360 thought Heroku was going out of business, but I just checked and it looks 91 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:18,639 like they're still up. But something happened where Heroku got like shamed and I 92 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:23,480 can't remember what that was. Weren't a sleeper and yeah, a salesforce bought 93 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:26,399 it, right, that was? I think that was the shame is that 94 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:30,920 it wasn't that the trigger. I don't know. I I thirteen that they 95 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:36,920 while ago they My understanding there is that a lot of the product development shipped 96 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:42,800 that Heroku, A lot of a lot of things went into maintenance mod and 97 00:07:42,839 --> 00:07:46,000 a lot of things went into like very forward looking as opposed to like immediate 98 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:50,319 delivery, and so they stagnated it as a platform for quite a while. 99 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:56,959 And I think, like a lot of other platform as the surface platforms have 100 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,720 come out since then and have picker and shaping themselves a way or another. 101 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:07,120 There they're starting to re release new features and punch jobs, but it's kind 102 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:11,639 of like a long game that they're playing. I think, gotcha, gotcha, 103 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:13,480 and then there's it. Also, it feels like I have no data 104 00:08:13,519 --> 00:08:16,920 to back this up, so this is a certifiable fact, but it feels 105 00:08:16,959 --> 00:08:24,800 like there's a big shift in people's preferences to not use AWS and GCP anymore, 106 00:08:24,839 --> 00:08:28,279 Like people are looking for alternatives to that, and so I think having 107 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:35,519 doco here might be a segue into that. So Jose, can you tell 108 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:37,639 us a little bit? First of all, I want to know how you 109 00:08:37,759 --> 00:08:41,080 ended up being like the primary maintainer of this where you just like the last 110 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:45,399 one to leave the room and just like, oh damn it, or is 111 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:50,120 this something that you're actively pursuing. No, my university, I went to 112 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:56,799 Pace University here in New York. I will ran like a like a software 113 00:08:56,879 --> 00:09:01,799 media consulting firm within the university, like play potend for something. And when 114 00:09:01,799 --> 00:09:07,480 I left, another student took over that room. Part of that was also 115 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:11,279 like me giving them the actual server that we ran all the like project. 116 00:09:11,279 --> 00:09:13,279 So I didn't want to pay for this thing anymore. I didn't want to 117 00:09:13,279 --> 00:09:16,679 paper like software. I wasn't really involved. It didn't really make sense for 118 00:09:16,759 --> 00:09:22,399 a lot of perspectives. But I knew for a fact that those folks were 119 00:09:22,399 --> 00:09:26,639 like very focused on like a particular language or particular framework, not superfamily like 120 00:09:26,639 --> 00:09:31,960 the server stuff. And if anyone remembers like infrastructure work from like ten to 121 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,879 fifteen years ago, I was actually like pretty significant amount of work, Like 122 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:39,000 that's spending as much time setting up a server as you are working on actually 123 00:09:39,039 --> 00:09:46,440 like product. And so I looked around before projects that maybe could like fill 124 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:50,440 in the gap. We didn't have them, like as a sort of like 125 00:09:50,519 --> 00:09:54,080 student run consulting firm, We didn't have the money to spend on actual work 126 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,720 or any of these other plant in the service, and like they had had 127 00:09:58,759 --> 00:10:03,879 actual needs for some of these features emunctionality, and so I looked around at 128 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:09,399 projects that were available that like previously looked at as a contribute to Dooku was 129 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:13,919 one of them that I had previously contributed to a very small patch. I 130 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:18,399 was like, oh, I wonder how that project is going. It was 131 00:10:18,519 --> 00:10:22,559 effectively un maintained for about a year, but it was like close enough that 132 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:24,759 I was like, Okay, I can give this to students and they can 133 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:28,039 kind of like loot. Okay, it's not very complex product like software. 134 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:30,919 Their needs aren't very complex, So let me go see if I can like 135 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:33,039 kind of arrive it. Uh. And it took a little bit, but 136 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:37,720 I was able to convince Jeff Lindsay, who was a ritual maintainer, to 137 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:41,320 grant with commit rights and slowly and suddenly took over the project from there where 138 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:48,519 this is going. The university never actually the students never actually ended up installing 139 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:52,240 the software. They just shut down a bunch of those projects that were like 140 00:10:52,279 --> 00:10:56,440 cool, we don't need to run these anymore. But I kind understanded to 141 00:10:56,480 --> 00:11:03,639 maintaining this project mostly so for the past decade. Dang, that is that's 142 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:09,000 commitment. That's commitment. So what do you what are the like the the 143 00:11:09,039 --> 00:11:18,440 big goals that someone is trying to achieve that would lead them to picking Doku 144 00:11:18,639 --> 00:11:24,360 as their as their as their past service. Yeah. So it's we have 145 00:11:24,519 --> 00:11:31,039 like a pretty eclectic mix of folks. There's there's a huge number of folks 146 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:37,120 that like just ran away from like posted platforms such as or managed much such 147 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:41,360 as Rokuroku. I think in twenty sixteen, maybe twenty seventeen, they change 148 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:48,039 their pressing to remove their free tier or at least significantly back on the free 149 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:50,320 tier. And I think that that that makes sense for a lot of these 150 00:11:50,639 --> 00:11:56,759 uh passes. It's it's it's a money sink and potentially not something that like 151 00:11:56,320 --> 00:12:01,679 increases you know, their finances. So we have folks who are just like 152 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:05,120 I can't for to spend you know, seven dollars, and that that incluse 153 00:12:05,159 --> 00:12:09,480 folks who are like developing countries where they literally cannot afford to spend or they 154 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:13,840 actually like physically cannot pay for the service. We have. We have users 155 00:12:13,879 --> 00:12:20,480 who are like in countries that like just cannot use like financial systems that were 156 00:12:20,799 --> 00:12:26,399 comfortable with. We have folks who have like dozens and sometimes even hundreds of 157 00:12:26,639 --> 00:12:31,679 like Tory applications that like also cannot spend seven or eight hundred dollars, like 158 00:12:31,799 --> 00:12:35,919 here's my first baby toy appen, but still want to running, and so 159 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:39,759 those folks use it. On the other side, I've known of companies that 160 00:12:39,879 --> 00:12:43,720 use the WHO as part of their offering, right, so they have a 161 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:48,159 managed path and they use it as something on the base, whether they're like 162 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:52,799 side products for that person or actually like physically like like large startups that like 163 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:56,720 have as part of their offering in some sense. WHO. I've also known 164 00:12:56,759 --> 00:13:01,679 of universities that install it for their students because they need something that like maybe 165 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:07,720 professor's run air Force or something similar, and then their strokes are just like 166 00:13:07,919 --> 00:13:11,759 I want to run something locally for like my whole office. I think it's 167 00:13:11,919 --> 00:13:15,240 kind of like all local the place. It's not just like culture tinkering. 168 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:18,039 It's actual companies. It's culture running businesses that sort of thing. I mean, 169 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:22,159 I think you're hit on a really important aspect there. If we're going 170 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:26,960 to take the sort of thread that we've had in the last few few weeks. 171 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:33,080 You know, if you look at these providers, you you learn that 172 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:37,600 the users that come on that want the free version into these platforms, they 173 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:41,879 don't graduate or scale up ever. Right, they're almost like a completely different 174 00:13:41,879 --> 00:13:46,679 set, so like, I totally get the idea originally, like, oh, 175 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:48,879 yeah, more users is better. But what we found out in at 176 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:52,240 least the last five, maybe even decade at this point, that they don't 177 00:13:52,279 --> 00:13:56,600 convert to higher paying They don't these these engineers that are using in their free 178 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:03,519 time don't convince their company to move over to say the Herokers of the world. 179 00:14:03,799 --> 00:14:05,240 So maybe they have a core a need to go that way. But 180 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:11,799 it's also weird because I feel like a lot of those platforms have anchored themselves 181 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:16,039 to solving the very early engineering stages sort of thing, and not at scale, 182 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,480 so it's sort of like a you you're going up to customers who will 183 00:14:18,519 --> 00:14:24,840 never pay you. Yeah, I think it's it's weird because like, yeah, 184 00:14:24,879 --> 00:14:26,960 you need that initial base of folks. And I think there's a certain 185 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,600 like I'm not like, let's say I have a Roco account. I pay 186 00:14:31,679 --> 00:14:39,039 for a service there that I manage of someone. I'm like, I probably 187 00:14:39,039 --> 00:14:43,639 wouldn't use for Roukhu for my personal stuff, but I managed and I'm comfortable 188 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:46,960 running that. But certainly, like that's one of the things I like, 189 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:48,879 I'll say, hey, like I've used this in the past, maybe we 190 00:14:48,919 --> 00:14:52,159 should use this as at work, and I do that with a ton of 191 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:54,120 software. So I think there's part of it, like the growth strepty is 192 00:14:54,159 --> 00:15:00,279 not just necessarily like here's that seven dollars for you app that like someone should 193 00:15:00,279 --> 00:15:03,320 pay seven dollars for, but like that developer is comfortable with the experience they 194 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:07,159 have, they're going to bring it to their work and then like adopt that 195 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:13,919 software. You mentioned something interesting there about not wanting to run this at home 196 00:15:13,279 --> 00:15:18,000 so or heroc at home specifically, so you do like a home lab and 197 00:15:18,039 --> 00:15:22,919 you're utilizing this instead of say having to run an expensive thing like Kubernetes or 198 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:31,000 converorbid doctor Swarm or like a nomad. So actually, one of the I 199 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:35,440 think the final traits of Joku is that it's so extensible. It's built on 200 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:39,159 like a plugging system, and it's effectively like a pipeline. You run a 201 00:15:39,159 --> 00:15:41,440 command and that command, I mean, the first demand that you might do 202 00:15:41,559 --> 00:15:46,639 is a get push, and that actually triggers using a ton of Bash logic, 203 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:50,200 the actual building process. Right, it just happens to be like you 204 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:56,440 start a container jo who actually supports Kubernetes and Nomad as schedulers. So you 205 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:58,960 can build your application, push it to a registry and then like scheduling Sugarnet 206 00:16:00,399 --> 00:16:06,360 or a Cobaetus cluster or we have folks doing that in production. I run 207 00:16:06,399 --> 00:16:08,240 it on a couple of different one for like testing purposes, but I run 208 00:16:08,919 --> 00:16:15,320 my local software just because it makes sense. Like I'm running I'm running like 209 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,480 almost a SAM for instance. I don't want to like figure out like, 210 00:16:18,559 --> 00:16:21,759 okay, this is the command I needed. This is you know, it's 211 00:16:21,799 --> 00:16:27,639 like abb costor push to the server to go right. And I think that's 212 00:16:27,639 --> 00:16:32,799 one of the things that strikes me as interesting about this is the number of 213 00:16:32,879 --> 00:16:37,039 things that you do support via the plug ins, because that like that's the 214 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:42,360 that's the initial hurdle. Right you're building your application, You're like, okay, 215 00:16:42,399 --> 00:16:47,480 well I need engine X, and oh I need postgrass as well, 216 00:16:47,559 --> 00:16:49,639 and okay, now I need elastic Search, you know, or reddish or 217 00:16:49,679 --> 00:16:59,639 whatever. And so getting away too quickly install and launch these makes it just 218 00:16:59,679 --> 00:17:03,319 makes it an easier process so that you spend more time building your application and 219 00:17:03,519 --> 00:17:10,119 less time configuring services that you need. But like you're not really emotionally attached 220 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:14,359 to them, right, Like I need a cash but I don't really care 221 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:15,960 where it comes from as long as it's there when I need it. So 222 00:17:18,839 --> 00:17:23,880 what's the what's the startup experience look like for someone to get started with Doku? 223 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:29,400 I mean you mentioned that it's just a plug in based system and your 224 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:33,480 your typical first response is just a get push? Is it from a like 225 00:17:33,519 --> 00:17:37,400 a config file there? What's the what's the level of overhead to get it 226 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:41,960 up and run in? So you install the software, if there's a shell 227 00:17:42,039 --> 00:17:45,920 script that you've been download on, like cur bash it. If you want 228 00:17:48,279 --> 00:17:53,000 we provide Apple costs, that's kind of You can create an app. All 229 00:17:53,079 --> 00:17:57,279 of the commands, try really like I try really really hard to mirror the 230 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:03,000 command on the experience on for better or worse. A lot of engineers at 231 00:18:03,079 --> 00:18:06,519 least you know, ten years ago, were super comfortable with that. Sure, 232 00:18:06,559 --> 00:18:11,400 and it's it's while there's some things I don't like about the design, 233 00:18:11,279 --> 00:18:15,359 it's actually like pretty straightforward to understand all the coroman pretty tribal to like kind 234 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:21,119 of remember and having a pattern. And so if you've ever used a Roku, 235 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:25,880 like the demands that literally say, right you app, create your app. 236 00:18:26,519 --> 00:18:30,000 You can add a domain, you know, you can come fixed, 237 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,519 set and environment variable and you push your application. I think that the hardest 238 00:18:33,559 --> 00:18:38,480 two parts of getting an apptiployd are one, getting a server that you can 239 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:44,240 install toe I've got to insult somewhere, uh, and then the second part 240 00:18:44,279 --> 00:18:48,440 is ensuring your initial build runs correctly. I think like it's if you've ever 241 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:52,960 like to set up something with c c D, that first set of like 242 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:57,559 I'm adding CI, it's going to take ten or fifteen commits, and regardless 243 00:18:57,559 --> 00:19:03,799 of what we do, I think that's pretty and any service that first setup 244 00:19:03,839 --> 00:19:07,079 is actually like pretty hard. In some cases, the software has gotten a 245 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:10,720 lot better over time. There's a lot of auto detection we can on. 246 00:19:11,279 --> 00:19:15,200 There's a lot of builder plogans that I have. So if you are if 247 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,079 you're comfortable for Roku, you can continue using that. And many applications just 248 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:22,680 brought out a box if you want to use a doctor Bob support that, 249 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:26,279 et cetera. But once you do that, you're kind of you're up and 250 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:32,160 running right your application. You've got a domain, it's hopefully networked from the 251 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:36,079 outside in via DNS, and youre you can actually kind of continue on your 252 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:42,839 life great one, and so then like Roku, you can run multiple act, 253 00:19:44,319 --> 00:19:51,640 multiple independent applications on a single Doku instance. Is that right, Yeah, 254 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:55,920 that's correct. You can constrain the resource utilization if you want. So 255 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,920 let's say you have an application that's supposed only run under forage and MAGA, 256 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,400 so you can give it just that point and many bites everything else consume the 257 00:20:03,559 --> 00:20:07,039 entire server. Many of our users don't do that, especially the ones who 258 00:20:07,039 --> 00:20:10,279 are just like, I need a single server. It's got two bigs of 259 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:14,240 ramp. They don't really care to constrain that, and their case and their 260 00:20:14,279 --> 00:20:17,559 head they might not like really understand what it means to constrain or like why 261 00:20:17,599 --> 00:20:21,079 you want to. We have folks who are like, as they scale through 262 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:22,240 they were like, okay, fine, let me start like being a little 263 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:27,160 before sensitive to research realization and therefore costs, so that they know, okay, 264 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:32,319 like I need to scale horizontally, I need ten of these, so 265 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:37,480 this one takes a bigger rand because is what I need. Likewise, if 266 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,519 you're using one of our schedule O plugins, it's almost certainly one of the 267 00:20:40,559 --> 00:20:44,359 first things you're going to do is resource constraints. But otherwise, yeah, 268 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:48,920 you can run as many applications as you want. On listener, right on. 269 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,000 And as it's built I think I heard you say this. It's built 270 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:57,960 so that you can have a single Dooku instance that spans horizontally across multiple physical 271 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:06,039 servers. Yeah, that's correct. So the kuberneteslug in, which was a 272 00:21:06,079 --> 00:21:10,519 recently release, allows us to basically, if you have a blank service running 273 00:21:10,519 --> 00:21:15,359 somewhere else, you can pluster ad give it as long as that joker stage 274 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,279 on to the other server, give it the I P and then it will 275 00:21:18,319 --> 00:21:22,720 install on the software connected and you're deployment. We'll go to that servers a 276 00:21:22,839 --> 00:21:32,039 corporate wow. Right on. Yeah, I really like seeing the extension of 277 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:36,640 more technology in this area because personally, and I'm sure I'm gonna get a 278 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:41,440 lot of mail now, I'm not a fan of Kubernetes specifically, and uh 279 00:21:42,519 --> 00:21:45,640 I mean okay, yeah, you know what, I also didn't like Doctor 280 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:49,839 Swarm, so you know, I've had a problem in these spaces, and 281 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:53,279 you know, I always sort of like I'm not a fan of what hashikorp 282 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,559 is doing. That's a personal preference. So you know, I fink I'm 283 00:21:56,599 --> 00:22:00,720 out right like that. That was like the full set, Like what else 284 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,880 is there that you know supports virtualization at this level. Uh, and so 285 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,960 like I'm always sort of curious because like you know, someone's like, oh, 286 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:08,079 yeah, you know what I'm running on It's like we're going to use 287 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:11,039 cumminnetes. I'm like, you don't need to. It's like, oh yeah, 288 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:12,319 we're on prem. Like, well then I have no recommendation for you. 289 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,880 So you know, it's really it's really awesome to hear that there are 290 00:22:15,599 --> 00:22:18,880 projects like at this level of the stack that are you know, up and 291 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,960 coming that are you know, both have the on prem answer. And I 292 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:26,079 think I saw that you also have a cloud solution as well. Is that 293 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:30,119 right? I don't have a cloud solution. I think I don't know. 294 00:22:33,279 --> 00:22:37,440 I feel as though like running a cloud solution is like an entire company is 295 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:42,319 in there. I mean like the cell and yeah and after and all these 296 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:47,880 companies exist. Yeah, so I shied away from that. Soku has a 297 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:56,319 pro offering, which essentially provides like a uy bi IT'SPS and like team management 298 00:22:56,319 --> 00:23:00,119 and things that like you might need if you're slightly larger organization. So I 299 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:04,680 feel like consulting firm that you have most folks, or maybe you're a natural 300 00:23:04,759 --> 00:23:08,880 startup and you're concerned about, like who has that, just what that might 301 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,440 be for you, but by a large a lot of folks to get away 302 00:23:11,519 --> 00:23:18,559 with, like I'm just going to install this, and would a joking cloud 303 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:22,359 ever come again? I'm very hesitant to say yes. I know that there 304 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:26,720 are companies out there who use THEIRKU as part of their underlying cloud offering. 305 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:33,839 It seems like a lot of works. I wish them the best. Maybe 306 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,839 that's not for me today. I've got my plate full with just running the 307 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:45,319 projects. So along those lines, we talked about running this on your own 308 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:52,279 physical servers and not really making this like an a w S or GCP or 309 00:23:52,400 --> 00:24:00,359 as you're plug in offering. But there are other providers like Digital Ocean jumps 310 00:24:00,599 --> 00:24:04,960 out first in my head for companies that just say, hey, here's a 311 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,519 server, do whatever you want, we don't care, just pay the bill. 312 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,559 And it seems like there's quite a few of those popping up, you 313 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:17,200 know, like I mentioned earlier in the episode, where it feels like there's 314 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:22,000 a movement away from aws and cloud providers of that nature, who are so 315 00:24:22,079 --> 00:24:30,839 many of the other compute instance providers that you're seeing your customers use. So 316 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:34,880 I do want to say that many of these managed offer or many of these 317 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:41,359 like host hosting providers also have with a kugerneggies offering, right, So in 318 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:45,279 many cases, folk like they're there's maybe like a graduation of books through like 319 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,880 I need a server and then I need multiple servers that run something in a 320 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:57,400 cluster. So like LINOD and Hester Digital Motions as a big one, those 321 00:24:57,599 --> 00:25:03,119 are the big three. I would say that like folks are like gravitating towards 322 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:07,680 past like a WS TCP. I do see like a lot of a lot 323 00:25:07,759 --> 00:25:15,279 more folks are using like smaller, more regional hosting providers right in many cases 324 00:25:15,319 --> 00:25:19,039 because they are concerned about like privacy laws or latency issues and that sort of 325 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,880 thing. I think latency is actually like a bigger one than a privacy law. 326 00:25:22,279 --> 00:25:27,480 So like if if if ah wus up a data center in your region, 327 00:25:27,759 --> 00:25:30,480 you might I'd say, okay that they're the tried and true, let 328 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:37,200 me use them over something that's been around for a little Yeah, for sure. 329 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:42,920 And I think there's like that regional aspect is huge because there's these entire 330 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:48,680 like niche markets that exist and just in certain areas of the world, and 331 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:53,440 it will never scale beyond that, but it's a valuable offering for that area, 332 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:59,960 and I think good. Yeah. I mean for Roku is a good 333 00:26:00,039 --> 00:26:06,319 example of that. They are hosted in Northern Virginia. Right, you might 334 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:08,200 be able to get something in Europe, but I don't believe so. But 335 00:26:08,279 --> 00:26:11,039 if you're using in the Asia, like your all of your users are going 336 00:26:11,079 --> 00:26:17,240 to North Virginia and back tracking. So, like a platform a service that's 337 00:26:17,839 --> 00:26:22,640 native to whatever pop provide of your app in Australia, for instance, probably 338 00:26:22,839 --> 00:26:27,000 not going to be like a global you know it, but at least locally 339 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:33,599 you will be pretty decent. Yeah, for sure. For sure? What 340 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:38,200 are come of the some of the common use cases that you see people using 341 00:26:38,319 --> 00:26:45,160 this for? Is it for like like a static website, service, side 342 00:26:45,279 --> 00:26:48,599 apps, back end APIs? Is there any kind of pattern that you're picking 343 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:56,400 up that like suits itself really well towards this platform. Unfortunately not everyone kind 344 00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:00,920 of like is developing their own stuff right for better worse. We have like 345 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,920 I have users that are like all I wanted to do is deploy a background 346 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:11,279 worker for a corontast right yea, like folks who like write this sport thoughts 347 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:12,799 is a good example they're just like, yeah, like I don't need a 348 00:27:12,839 --> 00:27:18,119 web process, it's just ones in the background. We have companies, I 349 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:22,000 know, companies that are using it as like an alternative, a cheaper alternative 350 00:27:22,079 --> 00:27:30,319 for preview environments for Rooko right where they might be paying a Rooku handling fist 351 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,960 for you know, their entire engineering team, but they can set up one 352 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:37,720 big server and installed can kind of get most of the same experience there. 353 00:27:38,279 --> 00:27:44,240 So there's no real I don't know that it's necessarily like a specific type of 354 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:49,160 user per se. We haven't gone after a niche of users like ourself aves 355 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,920 where they're like, yeah, we own the front end space. We're kind 356 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:57,319 of just like off in terms of like ants, office changes, like what 357 00:27:57,519 --> 00:28:03,079 people install and use them people, which is good in bad right. Sometimes 358 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:06,400 I've a support requests It's like I don't know if I can load up this 359 00:28:06,519 --> 00:28:08,599 page right now. This is not maybe say for work, let me wait 360 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:14,039 until later, but you know, generally speaking, it's whatever the users. 361 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:18,440 Again, that's actually a really cool idea that you mentioned of using it to 362 00:28:18,519 --> 00:28:22,960 stand up your poor request environments, so you would have this running off to 363 00:28:23,039 --> 00:28:29,680 the side, completely independent from your production infrastructure and then your gith hook just 364 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:34,000 builds and deploys your application for the poor review environment, and then when the 365 00:28:34,559 --> 00:28:40,319 poor request is closed, it just tears us down. Yeah, that's correct. 366 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:45,599 We have a ghetto action and like a get lab and integration with other 367 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:49,880 CI platforms that allow folks to do exactly what you're saying. You open up 368 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:55,640 a poor request that automatically clones like a test application that you have. It's 369 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:59,640 something that has on your variables, pushes your applications to that, and then 370 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,079 once full request disclosed or marriage, it will shut that down. It's actually 371 00:29:03,119 --> 00:29:08,559 like a pretty common use case. I always get scared having a different infrastructure 372 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:14,200 running for my non production environments. Like I always think that, like you 373 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:18,440 know, wherever the differences that are, that's where the bugs are. Yeah, 374 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:23,720 that's certainly an issue that like I've seen some larger companies come upains, 375 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:30,160 especially when they're running I think more cloud specific offerings. Right, So if 376 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:34,319 you're talking about like down on TB for instance, I don't have a ANOD 377 00:29:34,559 --> 00:29:37,720 plugging, right, is an a US specific thing. So it's not like 378 00:29:37,839 --> 00:29:41,920 I can replicate how that works, and so there are casionally workrooks. So 379 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:47,559 like, yeah, I have this part of my staging environment is over here 380 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:51,240 and this is over here. That said, I feel as though, like 381 00:29:51,519 --> 00:29:56,279 for especially for a lot of these companies, they'll have like a primary integration 382 00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:00,319 environment that is on their primary provider and then the shoes off the side where 383 00:30:00,759 --> 00:30:04,680 this review rap case. That's pretty common because this review apps are like spin 384 00:30:04,759 --> 00:30:07,960 up in your tear down. You don't really care how long they live for. 385 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,799 You know, they're probably going to add bugs, but you're going to 386 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:15,559 integrate all that into your pre production environment anyways. So it's like fine, 387 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:22,640 interesting, if you find yourself in the spot where you need to create a 388 00:30:22,839 --> 00:30:30,160 Dynamo dB plug in, you should probably reevaluate your life choices. What stefps 389 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,880 did? I take? It led me to this point, I mean luckily 390 00:30:34,279 --> 00:30:40,279 with that though it's not that smart, like I think, yeah, I 391 00:30:40,359 --> 00:30:47,000 mean honestly, at this point, given our extensive integration with it for managing 392 00:30:47,079 --> 00:30:52,160 permissions and roles and whatnot, I think we found a lot of information about 393 00:30:52,279 --> 00:30:56,440 how it works just by understanding where the limitations are. Like it's not just 394 00:30:56,519 --> 00:30:57,920 a key value store, you know, and you can really think about how 395 00:30:59,279 --> 00:31:03,000 they built some things because they sort of leak through right, Because the less 396 00:31:03,119 --> 00:31:06,880 leaky of an abstraction you have, then the more of a layer there is 397 00:31:07,319 --> 00:31:11,359 of that abstraction, which adds, you know, potentially complexities, and especially 398 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:15,799 services at aws, they don't change that much over time, Like they don't 399 00:31:15,799 --> 00:31:18,359 deprecate things. I mean, they make them better as far as the internals 400 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,359 go, but the API stays, you know, the same. So unless 401 00:31:21,359 --> 00:31:26,000 there's a huge rewrite over of diamond YB, you know, I actually don't 402 00:31:26,039 --> 00:31:30,000 think it's that that complicated enough so that a WOS even has like a dynamody 403 00:31:30,079 --> 00:31:33,119 B local version that you can run, and local stacks got one as well. 404 00:31:37,799 --> 00:31:42,359 I'm not saying to do it. I'm gonna be re evaluating decisions. 405 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:52,680 All I did was agree to go in this podcast, and that's where my 406 00:31:52,799 --> 00:32:00,480 life turned around, folks. Right, And so let's talk about that. 407 00:32:00,599 --> 00:32:08,240 How much time do you spend reviewing the plugins that you have and evaluating what 408 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:14,400 plug ins would be good additions to the platform. What's that process look like? 409 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:22,680 So I traditionally always try to use other platforms out there, like like 410 00:32:22,759 --> 00:32:29,000 I'll go in and say, okay, released something new self neat feature like 411 00:32:29,119 --> 00:32:32,759 running some technically or whatever happens to be just just to play around to get 412 00:32:32,799 --> 00:32:36,759 a sense for like how it's useful, how it could be useful in there 413 00:32:36,839 --> 00:32:40,799 through like whether there is even a possibility to be doing the same thing right, 414 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,400 not just for the project, but also for like actually like data day 415 00:32:45,519 --> 00:32:51,079 work. Right, I've worked with change where like our manager or build the 416 00:32:51,119 --> 00:32:53,440 platform, and so how do those how do those speeches that like we don't 417 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,880 have on our platform, how could we utilize them? How do we take 418 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,359 advantage of that sort of stuff? So like I've done that an offer as 419 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:07,319 decade and that's kind of like a regular thing that I do, uh, 420 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,039 in terms of like how I decide walk gets into the product. A lot 421 00:33:10,079 --> 00:33:15,839 of it's just like how often there's a request come in and is that request 422 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:20,440 serviced by something that's already there at right? You know, the folks have 423 00:33:20,559 --> 00:33:23,519 asked for features that I just don't make sense for the project, right, 424 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:29,680 someone like maybe once a year or two I'll get some on the last Hey, 425 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,000 I've love to run this on previous D And I'm like, cool, 426 00:33:32,359 --> 00:33:37,279 I don't think you have a doctor on PREVIOUSD. So that like we'll stop 427 00:33:37,319 --> 00:33:40,200 there. Right. It's like it's just out of stope, and it's like 428 00:33:40,319 --> 00:33:45,839 it's unfortunately I don't have the bandwid for that. Likewise spokes will last or 429 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,480 like again, like a Dynamo d people a game, right, and I 430 00:33:49,599 --> 00:33:52,599 know that there's software to run something similar to anamoy be locally, but until 431 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,599 that software existed, the answer was, you know, I can't run that. 432 00:33:58,559 --> 00:34:00,000 There are features that are like, yeah, this comes up once a 433 00:34:00,039 --> 00:34:04,559 month and it's great, so much workflow, and like they'll file a ticket 434 00:34:04,559 --> 00:34:07,079 and I'll be like, oh, that's not supported, or like, oh 435 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,559 that's a note bug. Eventually it'll work me enough that like I'll fix it, 436 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:13,679 or like someone will come and say, like here's a partial fix, 437 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,840 in which case going out help them bring that over the finish line. There's 438 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:22,679 also features that like would be awesome to support, or like would have been 439 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:28,079 awesome to support, or just such a massive amount of work, or like 440 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,360 require a number of steps to get to that like by the time everything's ready, 441 00:34:32,599 --> 00:34:36,599 or even just then, I'm just like this isn't worth the time that 442 00:34:36,599 --> 00:34:40,840 it would spend. Docos Form is a good example of that, where there 443 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:47,039 were foundational changes that people performed in order to support anything like the next frontal 444 00:34:47,079 --> 00:34:50,519 scheduling for years, like I was just like, yeah, okay, this 445 00:34:50,639 --> 00:34:52,920 is the next step that we need to do. Uh. And only recently 446 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,320 as I gotten to the plot where I'm like, okay, this is in 447 00:34:55,400 --> 00:35:00,159 a place where like we could comfortably add another scheduling. Isn't just doctor local 448 00:35:00,199 --> 00:35:05,400 and that's what organized schedule? Uh? And I looked again, it's warm 449 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:10,119 because it's in some sense built into the doctor, but it hasn't been developed 450 00:35:10,639 --> 00:35:15,679 in years now, So it just didn't make sense from like a maintenance perspective, 451 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,760 why I support something that isn't being actively maintained A strength for sure, 452 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,880 and so like it kind of like really advances in case my case basis, 453 00:35:23,039 --> 00:35:27,880 if something small and like it's easy to meet implement, I might do it 454 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:34,440 on alarm. If it's something that like I see is actively turning users or 455 00:35:34,519 --> 00:35:39,639 like causing them to onboarding correctly or causing downtime for them or whatever happened to 456 00:35:39,679 --> 00:35:43,719 be, I'll look into those. And if there are things that I just 457 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:45,599 like that they're kind of out of stop the project or it just don't really 458 00:35:45,639 --> 00:35:49,800 make them street today, i'n't put it off or just saying this isn't this 459 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:54,320 isn't gonna happen. I'm sorry, makes sense, so worrying. You probably 460 00:35:54,480 --> 00:36:00,079 have a similar process too, just from your own work over at offer us, 461 00:36:00,199 --> 00:36:06,320 Like how do you determine what features are going on the board, what 462 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,280 features are just going to be flat out rejected? And how do you curate 463 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:14,480 those? Yeah, I mean you're you're really trying to get into the product 464 00:36:14,559 --> 00:36:17,119 management space. I see you really want to go and get the PM role 465 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:22,440 right there? Well you know it, you know, I mean two rewards 466 00:36:22,519 --> 00:36:28,039 for life. Yeah, I mean, honestly, for this my CEO would 467 00:36:28,039 --> 00:36:32,079 probably be the more of the expert here. But realistically, we categorize things 468 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,920 that I mean, as I say said, you know, there's a lot 469 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,800 there that's just straight on, like one hundred percent the same sort of thing 470 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:44,119 that we do realistically. You know, who are our customers and what do 471 00:36:44,199 --> 00:36:46,760 they need to keep going? We definitely categorize them as like, oh yeah, 472 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:52,559 like for sure this is in our sort of roadmap already. It may 473 00:36:52,599 --> 00:36:57,000 be further out and we just pull it back and increase the priority or this 474 00:36:57,159 --> 00:37:00,119 is really cool, right, Like we didn't really consider that, but this 475 00:37:00,159 --> 00:37:04,840 would be a great use case, A great both user story as well as 476 00:37:05,679 --> 00:37:10,440 something we can publish on our blog to get future customers as well a real 477 00:37:10,519 --> 00:37:15,119 case study. So I mean all those sorts of things sort of pull in, 478 00:37:15,119 --> 00:37:16,880 and then there's maintenance as well. I mean, I think, given 479 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:22,239 my experience, the biggest trouble in companies often in this area is not paying 480 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:27,920 enough time to spin down the tech debt or reduce the amount of fires that 481 00:37:28,079 --> 00:37:31,000 you're fighting. So you know, in the example of we're getting a support 482 00:37:31,039 --> 00:37:36,000 ticket every month on this that's probably too much for my liking on that specific 483 00:37:36,079 --> 00:37:38,960 topic, like that would cause us to revisit documentation or change the feature. 484 00:37:39,159 --> 00:37:43,280 Like the thing I hate seeing on our product the most is an explanation, 485 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:46,360 Like if we have to write an explanation to our customers, to our users, 486 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,760 to you know, this is how you use the feature, then there's 487 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:53,440 an education component that makes it more complex. And so like eliminating those really 488 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:59,440 improves the UX and reduces the burden on our side to handle every single one 489 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:01,119 of those coming. And so those are really the interesting things, Like we 490 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,800 like seeing where our customers are getting stuck and then try to figure out how 491 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,719 could we design our system differently to avoid those and that's where a lot of 492 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:14,079 our time goes. So I think that's a really cool end to end perspective 493 00:38:14,119 --> 00:38:20,920 there, because Warren, you're running a funded company and then Jose you're running 494 00:38:21,199 --> 00:38:27,239 an open source product and you've been maintaining that for over a decade now, 495 00:38:28,639 --> 00:38:37,559 So how does that fit into like how much non coding work do you put 496 00:38:37,639 --> 00:38:39,239 into the product, because that's that's a big piece of it, right of 497 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:45,880 like spreading the knowledge that this product exists and showing people what it does and 498 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:51,320 trying to capture a larger audience. And I'm assuming that part of that is 499 00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:59,039 a hope of getting people to use it in sort of a way that they 500 00:38:59,079 --> 00:39:01,599 would also contry be to the project, so that you're not the sole person 501 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:05,920 building on this day in and day out. How do you approach that? 502 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:09,480 Yeah, you know, I've spent a lot of time trying to make the 503 00:39:09,519 --> 00:39:14,559 documentation super clearit like, like Laarren mentioned, if there's something like in the 504 00:39:14,599 --> 00:39:16,360 documentation it's like this, I mean, I don't know why I'm writing this. 505 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:20,440 This is weird, you know, Like maybe I'll spend more time on 506 00:39:20,519 --> 00:39:23,519 the coding side of figuring that out. I mentioned before that there's a lot 507 00:39:23,559 --> 00:39:29,719 of like products sort of investigation, like seeing what the competitors in the space 508 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,880 are doing, right, whether there are other open source projects and there's a 509 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:37,639 ton of them out there, or if they are you know, funded companies, 510 00:39:37,679 --> 00:39:40,480 like what are they doing and how being something? Right? Oftentimes like 511 00:39:42,119 --> 00:39:44,559 you know, it's just it's a party of one here, right. I 512 00:39:44,639 --> 00:39:49,800 don't have the time to market or to build out the features, and you 513 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:53,239 know whatever, I have to kind of be judicious about how spend my time. 514 00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:58,800 And so the less time I can, the more time I'm spending on 515 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:00,760 the product I think, is it is better? And then on the SOURI 516 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:07,239 project. But you know, there's there's certainly like a ton of you know, 517 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,559 extraneous stuff that I need to do that like is not necessarily like fun 518 00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:14,320 or interesting for cons right. A lot of it's just like, hey, 519 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:19,039 this this person has an issue. How do I replicate that I cannot replicate 520 00:40:19,039 --> 00:40:22,360 it on my end? Okay, well there's something weird about my environment. 521 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:24,920 Let me go see if I can exactly replicate their environment, right, whether 522 00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:30,840 that's my investigating with that person getting more information or like figuring out Okay, 523 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:34,840 like I pre's a step here that I'm not asking the right question or something 524 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,000 like that, or not gathering the right de too for that, No, 525 00:40:37,159 --> 00:40:44,440 delegation is a huge aspect for sure, getting them to do it and just 526 00:40:44,559 --> 00:40:47,960 taking the time and effort to dig into those things. Like that's a labor 527 00:40:49,039 --> 00:40:53,360 of love. Like right, I mean you've just got these you just have 528 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:59,480 to absolutely love this product to spend this much time and effort into it to 529 00:40:59,599 --> 00:41:02,159 trying to make sure people are successful with it off for free because you don't 530 00:41:02,199 --> 00:41:06,519 get paid for this. Yeah, you know, sometimes I stay here and 531 00:41:06,599 --> 00:41:12,960 I'm like, what steps and what decisions that I say, No, no, 532 00:41:13,199 --> 00:41:16,599 I really, I really do enjoy working in this space. I've done 533 00:41:16,639 --> 00:41:22,679 that for most of my professional career. It's interesting to see how people are 534 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:29,920 making other developers more productive and like helping them ship code and ship products in 535 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:32,480 front of customers, right, and like I love doing that. And so 536 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:36,320 there's certainly like an aspect the where I'm like, yeah, this is great. 537 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,000 But sometimes like I'll wake up and I'll see a ticket that it was 538 00:41:39,039 --> 00:41:42,719 wild, but I'm like, this is going to take thirty hours for me 539 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:46,079 to investigate because like it's pulling team because the person isn't providing the right information, 540 00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:51,039 refusing to or like, actually, this problem is pretty difficult and I 541 00:41:51,079 --> 00:41:52,679 don't have a way to replicate it just now, So I have to build 542 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:57,760 out an application that does that thing. How I can figure out what exactly 543 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,440 is going on? Right, So you know, there there's some there's some 544 00:42:01,079 --> 00:42:05,199 times where I'm just like, yeah, this issue isn't working. We're just 545 00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:08,599 not this is it's working as intended. Sorry, But certainly there's like a 546 00:42:10,079 --> 00:42:13,760 love aspect for it where I'm just like, yeah, this is this is 547 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:16,000 super interesting work for me. How do I how do I make this better 548 00:42:16,079 --> 00:42:20,920 for other folks? Those are the things you don't want to actually even let 549 00:42:21,039 --> 00:42:22,880 someone else do. You want to do those yourself. So you know, 550 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:25,320 even if you had someone else come in and help you, they're just taking 551 00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:29,199 away the work that you actually enjoy. But to a certain extent, I 552 00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:32,400 feel also there's there's certainly places in the Toku like ecosystem where I've said, 553 00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:36,679 hey, I don't have time for to maintain this. It's super awesome that 554 00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:38,639 you are doing this. Would you like to take us on? Right? 555 00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:44,960 We had a better maintainer. Michael Hobbs, who worked on the project for 556 00:42:45,039 --> 00:42:49,599 about four or five years maybe six. Uh. He used has part of 557 00:42:49,679 --> 00:42:55,440 their working with a boutique investment shop where they basically like provided services to the 558 00:42:55,599 --> 00:43:00,239 companies that were running under that shop. And so like you could just your 559 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:04,639 product is supposed to doing like marketing and sales or whatever they provide you like 560 00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:08,840 a micro cto or micro platform team. So they use their part of that 561 00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:13,800 and so he contributed. He started contributing to it. Was like this is 562 00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:15,519 great. I use it all the time, but like you're the rate of 563 00:43:15,639 --> 00:43:22,719 changes that the rate of change that you're having on this project and the rate 564 00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:25,679 of breakings that you have in this project is not great necessarily on in the 565 00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:28,880 project. So it was like the first thing I'm gonna do is write test 566 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:31,199 for you, so we have a test and so like now I contribute to 567 00:43:31,199 --> 00:43:34,800 test. And that was like a labor of love for him, and he 568 00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:37,440 was just like this is what I do for the five six years even past 569 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:42,440 that company. Similarly, like there's another part of the project or antible modules 570 00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:45,760 where like there's someone who maintains on a spare time. He doesn't use it 571 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:51,000 at all anymore as my understanding, like he just contributes to it when he 572 00:43:51,039 --> 00:43:54,079 can, right, And so whenever I can step away from a particular part 573 00:43:54,119 --> 00:43:58,280 of the project, I'm like, yes, please do that. You have 574 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:00,679 a big seem to have a good head on your head on your shoulders. 575 00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:05,519 You can kind of take that as you will. There's a little bit of 576 00:44:05,599 --> 00:44:08,639 trust to ask to be involved there. Right, I have someone wants we 577 00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:13,960 just talked about them. You know, I'm still reviewing prs and releases, 578 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:19,039 and that's sort of to make sure that nothing's going out well my automate as 579 00:44:19,119 --> 00:44:22,880 much of that as possible that in the worst case that person leaves or I 580 00:44:22,079 --> 00:44:25,679 haven't forbided on if something happens to me, folks can continue on the project. 581 00:44:27,639 --> 00:44:30,719 And so, you know, whatever you can do to ensure the providence 582 00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:34,719 of the code that gets shipped is super important to the project. Other than 583 00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:37,119 that, you know, if someone wants to attribute to a particular area and 584 00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:40,880 really own that, I'm more than happy to like help guide them into that 585 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:45,440 path and like make sure that they're comfortable and then allow them to almost free 586 00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:49,559 reign essentially to get the project. And that's certainly like how I started under 587 00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:52,840 a guy attributed a bunch of prs and then suddenly I was maintaining a product 588 00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:00,639 right then. So what's the future of docu look like? What are the 589 00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:09,199 big things that you are hoping to accomplish, whether those that's utilization, recognition, 590 00:45:09,599 --> 00:45:15,079 or new features. I have been working on this project for about a 591 00:45:15,119 --> 00:45:19,079 decade now. I'm not tired, but I certainly do want to get a 592 00:45:19,119 --> 00:45:22,079 solar point. That's my goal for the year. There are compe of tickets 593 00:45:22,079 --> 00:45:25,800 that are like if we don't if we implement these, they're breaking changes, 594 00:45:27,679 --> 00:45:30,280 uh, and they're about the last ones I can think of before I'm like, 595 00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:32,559 hey, this is how a bit to go. We can continue adding 596 00:45:32,599 --> 00:45:37,199 creatures but not necessarily break things, right. They're stuff around security adding I 597 00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:40,400 see Whenex support for instance, or at farm or and that sort of thing. 598 00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:45,920 Not necessarily anything that like is detrimental today, Like our users don't are 599 00:45:46,079 --> 00:45:50,239 impacted to launch, but like there are folks who are like very inclined, 600 00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:54,000 couldn't like to care about these features. So the one point, it would 601 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:59,159 be super great to have. The other part that I'd like to you know, 602 00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:02,920 once we hit that also that I'd like to focus on as our data 603 00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:07,280 stores service this area. As you mentioned, we have a first press clubbing. 604 00:46:07,679 --> 00:46:14,519 We have I think sixteen different data stores that we support, many of 605 00:46:14,559 --> 00:46:20,800 the common ones. So if you need retis ADP, right, it's pretty 606 00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:22,639 easy to like to stand that up and you're kind of bid to go. 607 00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:24,480 And I think, like the a lot of folks, it's a lot easier 608 00:46:24,559 --> 00:46:29,199 to do that than to say, go figure out the even just like figure 609 00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:31,159 out to read me on the doctor file the official doctor pile and figure out, 610 00:46:31,159 --> 00:46:34,639 okay, like this is how I start, how I stop it, 611 00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:37,039 how I like where I'm putting data, how I back up, how I 612 00:46:37,119 --> 00:46:40,519 connect to it? You know what I mean. Sure, but there's a 613 00:46:40,639 --> 00:46:46,039 ton of features in the data school signe that like I'd love to implement that 614 00:46:46,199 --> 00:46:50,760 have been requested for years. I just haven't had time to implement. Likewise, 615 00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:53,679 I'd like to make it easier for folks to contribute either new features on 616 00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:58,199 that on that side, or even just add new data stores. I mean, 617 00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:00,760 like we over the past five ers years, we've seen a pluffor of 618 00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:06,239 new data stories just come out that are used for particular use cases, like 619 00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:10,039 grapt databases, like the databases some of these like new fancy AI databases. 620 00:47:10,119 --> 00:47:14,000 I'm not really too sure of but like maybe one or two of them will 621 00:47:14,039 --> 00:47:21,320 stick, but don't. I don't have time to spend on investigating and figuring 622 00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:23,119 out how does how do create it, how do you like maintain et cetera. 623 00:47:23,159 --> 00:47:25,960 But if I can come up with a standard that allows folks to contribute 624 00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:30,039 those I think that'll allow folks to say, hey, like I can use 625 00:47:30,079 --> 00:47:32,519 this on my my personal project. It's great. And then if they want 626 00:47:32,559 --> 00:47:37,119 to, if they need to, to graduate to whatever the managed environment is. 627 00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:43,239 And then the last part of that is better multi service support. But 628 00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:46,239 that's been like just the constant pain for our users. They'll get to a 629 00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:51,960 former they like they're running it on one hundred and twenty take abyte memory server 630 00:47:52,599 --> 00:47:53,920 right, and they're like, this is good. We have two of them. 631 00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:58,039 It's awesome, but like we we can't scale horizonaly and they have to 632 00:47:58,119 --> 00:48:01,000 move onto the provider to build up the team to manage their infrastructure, et 633 00:48:01,039 --> 00:48:05,880 cetera. And I think it's unfortunate because, like you know, if your 634 00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:09,119 company, you only find that number of resources, and now you're spending some 635 00:48:09,199 --> 00:48:14,320 of those resources on building a platform where that's not really germane to running your 636 00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:16,480 business. We should just be running your product, and so anything that we 637 00:48:16,519 --> 00:48:21,559 can do to kind of like support those folks as they move on, whether 638 00:48:21,639 --> 00:48:24,000 they decide that Doku is you know, a good fit for them in the 639 00:48:24,039 --> 00:48:29,119 future or not, I think is super important. So continue to support for 640 00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:37,599 cluster environments and making those simpler and more practice for course ers. That was 641 00:48:37,679 --> 00:48:44,360 a huge understatement there, like spending time and effort building out infrastructure that's not 642 00:48:44,639 --> 00:48:49,519 core to the business that you're in. I mean, by definition that is 643 00:48:49,639 --> 00:48:57,400 develops. I'm putting myself out of business, putting all of us out of 644 00:48:57,440 --> 00:49:01,119 business, which I am going to be transparent. I'm one hundred percent for 645 00:49:01,559 --> 00:49:07,280 like whenever I go engage with someone new, like that's my primary job is 646 00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:10,360 to make it so that you don't need me anymore. And you're wondering, 647 00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:14,880 like, who's the smartest to keep showing up to our meetings and why is 648 00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:22,280 he here? You know, I've had I had quite the experiences with containers 649 00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:25,000 in my life, and I still to this point, I feel like I 650 00:49:25,159 --> 00:49:29,199 still have no idea what I'm doing. Every time I get to a new 651 00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:31,519 doctor file, I'm just like I'm getting it wrong in some way, and 652 00:49:31,599 --> 00:49:37,519 I feel like, you know, uh, fortunate or unfortunate. I feel 653 00:49:37,519 --> 00:49:40,679 like, you know, you've got uh maybe a secret view into here on 654 00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:46,320 something that everyone still gets wrong, some words of wisdom or advice that those 655 00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:49,719 of us who still can't figure out, you know, how to get the 656 00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:57,000 container file to do what we want. No, I don't, honestly, 657 00:49:57,719 --> 00:50:02,199 like I wish, I wish there was like some magic sprinkle me too, 658 00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:07,559 me too. There's a ton of like this space is very very vibrant. 659 00:50:07,599 --> 00:50:13,280 There's a ton of folks tackling at all levels right the roku and and boundary 660 00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:21,159 now uh Capital they they maintained the new version of build tax out data build 661 00:50:21,199 --> 00:50:24,679 tacks, which you have a lot of promise for a lot of security, 662 00:50:25,079 --> 00:50:30,599 like focused on books out there, mixed packs for railways is super cool, 663 00:50:30,199 --> 00:50:34,400 uh and provides like an alternative for like building that problem and you have no 664 00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:37,400 idea what to talk about is but like all of these technologies that are that 665 00:50:37,519 --> 00:50:40,880 are out there, they seen absent. But all of these things like they're 666 00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:45,679 obtuse in some way, shape or form right there, Like even for me 667 00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:50,360 and I've been in the space for more than like it's pretty difficult time tickets 668 00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:53,159 started. So there's there's no there's no like magic sprinkle like Verry does. 669 00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:55,800 I can like sprinkle on your project, except to say, like, you're 670 00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:59,960 gonna struggle of this for the first ten or so commits, and then you'll 671 00:51:00,039 --> 00:51:02,320 have something working. You probably need to revisit it in about a year when 672 00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:07,239 you need to something. You know. I I am totally with you. 673 00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:10,039 I mean, the one that always thumps me is the entry point versus c 674 00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:14,039 MD at the bottom of the And I'm like, which one is? What? 675 00:51:14,159 --> 00:51:15,679 You know, if it was me and I had to design this technology, 676 00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:21,239 I at least would have called it like run with overrides, run without 677 00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:22,719 over you know, allow overrides, right, you know, that's that's that's 678 00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:27,119 what I think what I would have gone with you. This is probably why 679 00:51:27,159 --> 00:51:30,800 you don't like kuberdriddies, because communities also had a confusion around that they call 680 00:51:31,079 --> 00:51:36,800 and I use them. It is also like just different enough, doctor, 681 00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:42,400 Just like, what are we doing here? Right, Let's take a confusing 682 00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:45,000 thing and make it even more confusing by not being consistent with it. Yeah, 683 00:51:45,039 --> 00:51:50,039 let's make them new words. I love that, right? Yeah? 684 00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:59,639 Cool? So what else should we know about Doku? It's it's mit license 685 00:52:00,519 --> 00:52:06,119 everything in the community is an I license. I have no desire to the 686 00:52:06,199 --> 00:52:09,559 company around this. I sell to still growthing on top. Most of our 687 00:52:09,639 --> 00:52:14,119 users don't really need that, UH. And you can be productive with it 688 00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:17,599 in a smaller environment as possible, obtou like a large company. Again, 689 00:52:17,639 --> 00:52:21,840 as I mentioned, folks are running it in their own labe, they're running 690 00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:23,199 it as part of consern firms, they're running it as part of what an 691 00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:28,039 offering that they sell lot for other customers. So you can be successful with 692 00:52:28,199 --> 00:52:30,719 open source. I think as far as you need to, as long as 693 00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:34,400 you need to, right, And that's kind of like the core ethos. 694 00:52:35,519 --> 00:52:38,800 We we want to be as extensible as possible to make you successful. And 695 00:52:39,039 --> 00:52:43,840 if we're not as successful, like maybe we're not the right fit for you, 696 00:52:44,119 --> 00:52:46,599 but maybe we are on a small chance team, right, So goe 697 00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:51,760 free to support us. UH feel for their contribute back up fixes, I'll 698 00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:57,320 issues support problems, and we'll take a look at them with the do you 699 00:52:57,360 --> 00:53:00,920 think that though, maybe maybe this isn't the right question this UH for this 700 00:53:00,079 --> 00:53:04,599 talk, but you know, I feel like with the calamity of szation and 701 00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:07,199 x Z like, I feel like the future of how open source will be 702 00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:13,039 contributed to going forward, the you know where the liability uh you know falls 703 00:53:13,119 --> 00:53:16,360 could be changing in the future. And it's like as an open source maintainer 704 00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:19,880 or at least you know, with a company that has open sources, d 705 00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:22,679 ks and things like that, you know, it's something that I'm at least 706 00:53:22,679 --> 00:53:28,599 trying to keep on my radar. I wonder about that. I don't know, 707 00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:31,480 like I don't have a lawyer for the project, right, so it's 708 00:53:31,519 --> 00:53:37,960 not like what happens is some act when they run Doku and actually we removed 709 00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:40,599 features from dope to make it more secure. We had a feature that allowed 710 00:53:40,639 --> 00:53:45,719 folks to have this like a little webuy to actually set up their server. 711 00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:50,000 All folks would install and not go through that webuy, and so we had 712 00:53:50,159 --> 00:53:52,719 just reports and folks saying, hey, I have a minder on my server, 713 00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:54,920 what's going on? Because someone else would go through their ips set up 714 00:53:54,920 --> 00:54:00,480 there as STAGEP and then start pushing code and so like the like, I 715 00:54:00,519 --> 00:54:04,159 can't say that I'm on the for some of that decisions. I can take 716 00:54:04,199 --> 00:54:08,760 that or use it friendly, but I do I do wonder about that, 717 00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:12,719 you know, especially if you know their companies that are like, I can't. 718 00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:15,800 We don't use it because of what you mentioned. We need someone to 719 00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:22,440 be live. No one ever gets fired for like buying IBM and myself at 720 00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:24,280 some point, at some point, at some point, we're going to be 721 00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:27,440 old enough and people are gonna be like what, I don't know what that 722 00:54:27,639 --> 00:54:31,960 is? Uh, you know my theory. My theory is that in order 723 00:54:32,039 --> 00:54:36,159 to commit or push a package to an open source repository, you'll need to 724 00:54:36,199 --> 00:54:39,679 have verified uh real identity attached to it. Uh. That's where I think 725 00:54:39,679 --> 00:54:44,480 it's going. So everyone that does it with the right goal or mentality in 726 00:54:44,599 --> 00:54:47,320 mind will be totally fine. Right, Like I'll just throw my my copy 727 00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:52,400 of my passport up next to whatever packages have my verified commitment. I don't 728 00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:57,159 know if I'm going to do that. I have. I would rather just 729 00:54:57,239 --> 00:55:00,159 publish to think to my website, like, just go to a bit is 730 00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:05,159 tom slash down the debt package. Good luck figure it out. That's a 731 00:55:05,159 --> 00:55:10,480 good package, you know. I like, I do wonder about that because 732 00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:14,119 we have users that are like, you know, like they'll come in they'll 733 00:55:14,159 --> 00:55:19,440 have like an actual serious question about their server. Right it's behaving correctly and 734 00:55:19,519 --> 00:55:22,679 honestly. I can't think about the running to a group demand. It's very 735 00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:27,199 apparent once I run them. But it's also difficult to explain to folks they 736 00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:30,039 run these street commands, because they'll run a command and then just like copyfaste 737 00:55:30,119 --> 00:55:32,719 out what they think is Germany, but like, actually not what I wanted, 738 00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:37,039 right, and so like they were like, oh, in many cases, 739 00:55:37,079 --> 00:55:37,840 I look, yeah, I can, I can grant you a stage 740 00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:40,480 access, can we do a pairing? And weah, great, let's do 741 00:55:40,599 --> 00:55:45,840 that. Also some cases the user is technical, but they can say, 742 00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:47,559 hey, I can trust them to run that command, don't given the exact 743 00:55:47,599 --> 00:55:51,719 output and all. But also which is great, but there are many users 744 00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:54,320 who are like I can't do that, Like I can't grant you access to 745 00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:58,079 my serv I can't grant you group I don't trust you. Right, this 746 00:55:58,280 --> 00:56:01,920 is for working right, Which it's a totally fair statement to me, for 747 00:56:02,039 --> 00:56:06,519 sure. It's also really interesting to me because like I published the project, 748 00:56:06,599 --> 00:56:08,000 so in theory I can just root their box, like I'm like, oh, 749 00:56:08,039 --> 00:56:13,320 here's a new Debian package specifically for you. Here, like it's it's 750 00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:15,159 built by CI. You know what's good. I don't run it, and 751 00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:20,320 it's it's effectively the same thing. So it's you know, in this space 752 00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:22,880 in particular, it's kind of like a weird place to be in where it's 753 00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:25,400 like, like, how do you trust the software maintainer to do the right 754 00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:30,000 thing when he already has roots to your box potentially? Right? For real? 755 00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:32,800 I mean that's what happened to you as a stage, Right, they 756 00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:36,920 already have root to your box. What do you do? Yeah, it's 757 00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:40,679 going to split two directions. One like Warren was staying where it's KYC. 758 00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:45,159 But instead of know your customer, it's customer, it's know your committer, 759 00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:51,119 and any other part will be like the pirate bay for open source software, 760 00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:53,199 like, oh, here's the link. Is this actually going to be the 761 00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:58,159 Debian package or is this actually a virus? No way to tell, let's 762 00:56:58,159 --> 00:57:00,679 do it. Are you guys not calling your software from tired thing? I 763 00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:07,760 do that all the time. I think that was the last time I used 764 00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:12,360 Windows, and that was like probably almost twenty years ago or something like that. 765 00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:15,280 Uh, I mean you had to get that. You had to get 766 00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:19,719 the coffee from somewhere, right, Yeah, for sure. I was a 767 00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:22,360 four college student at the time. I pay for all my software. Now 768 00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:25,679 I understand I also am like, I gotta pay for this, because like, 769 00:57:25,719 --> 00:57:29,360 if I don't pay for this and I get it from somewhere, lord 770 00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:32,360 knows what's gonna apple. Well, you know what they you know, never 771 00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:37,199 never a tribute to malice. What can easily be abscribed to a neglig chance. 772 00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:45,519 For sure, it's probably not that weird copy of Adobe Acrobat, because 773 00:57:47,719 --> 00:57:52,000 it's probably that screenshot I took up my desktop and put on Twitter. It's 774 00:57:52,039 --> 00:57:54,400 like, oh, look at what I'm working on that, Like right, 775 00:57:57,280 --> 00:58:00,440 here's a note in the corner of the Azrod Bank information You're master. So 776 00:58:04,559 --> 00:58:08,440 for real, I stressed over that, you know, posting screenshots like what's 777 00:58:08,519 --> 00:58:12,519 on here that I'm not seeing that I'm gonna regret as soon as I hit 778 00:58:12,639 --> 00:58:15,239 sand. But that's why I got this whole white wall thing back here. 779 00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:19,000 Like I know for sure, like all my notes are here, like off 780 00:58:19,079 --> 00:58:22,840 screen, There's no way the camera is going to catch those. I've definitely 781 00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:25,719 posted a screenshot and slashed in the past. It's like, okay, now 782 00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:40,559 I have awesome Well cool, so should we move on to picks. Let's 783 00:58:40,559 --> 00:58:44,320 do it. Let's do it all right, morn putting you on the spot 784 00:58:44,360 --> 00:58:46,159 first, This week. Yeah, well, maybe I'll be a little lamb 785 00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:51,800 so uh in a couple of weeks, I won't be here hosting on the 786 00:58:51,880 --> 00:58:55,320 podcast. Just for one day, authors is going to be DevOps Days Zurich 787 00:58:55,840 --> 00:59:00,239 and my CEO is giving a great talk on the ROI of security and the 788 00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:07,400 challenges of calculating and right on there. Yeah, that's cool. I haven't 789 00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:12,480 been to DevOps Day Zurich. I mean there's like twenty or so conferences around 790 00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:15,480 the world that all the develops Days Moniker, And honestly, out of all 791 00:59:15,519 --> 00:59:20,639 the conferences I've been to or spoken at, I liked it the best for 792 00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:25,239 sure. Yeah. Right, I've spoken at dev up stays in Amsterdam, 793 00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:31,960 Austin, Salt Lake City, Phoenix, maybe a few others. Amsterdam does 794 00:59:32,239 --> 00:59:38,599 puts on a great devop Stays event. Yeah for sure. Yeah, Jose, 795 00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:45,039 what'd you bring for a pick? I'm gonna go with food. I 796 00:59:45,239 --> 00:59:46,960 am a huge fan of Wings. I can't do hot sauce, I can't 797 00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:52,599 do spicy food, but I can do Wings. There's a hotel I'm blanking 798 00:59:52,639 --> 00:59:58,199 on the name right now. It's a hotel President and Uh in Nashville that 799 00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:06,239 makes a probably my favorite Wings they are kan Wine Wings, which are super 800 01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:08,920 This hotel is like five minutes away from the airport. It's not the place 801 01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:19,360 I would have expected if you're very nationale China. And if I'm not mistaken, 802 01:00:19,440 --> 01:00:22,840 Nashville is like the self proclaimed home of wings. Is that Is that 803 01:00:22,960 --> 01:00:27,639 right? Or am I just completely making that up? It depends on how 804 01:00:27,719 --> 01:00:30,440 you count it. There's there's suppose who, like, all, where's the 805 01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:34,559 hot sauce like come from? There's a bar? I know, I go 806 01:00:34,679 --> 01:00:37,719 through that like makes one flavor of the hot sauce. I think there's something 807 01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:42,960 the war about two different competing places making like wings for the first time and 808 01:00:43,159 --> 01:00:47,480 like having a different way for carrying them. So you can never go wrong 809 01:00:47,519 --> 01:00:53,039 with food as your pick, Yeah, for sure, for sure, And 810 01:00:53,199 --> 01:00:59,400 then the opposite category of food I'm going with. I'm gonna stick with my 811 01:00:59,599 --> 01:01:02,320 pick for the last couple of weeks and I will be back next week with 812 01:01:02,440 --> 01:01:09,119 a new pick, a different But for this week, I'm sticking with right. 813 01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:15,159 Yeah, I'm sticking with platform Con coming up in June, five day 814 01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:23,280 virtual event on platform engineering Virtual It's one hundred percent free, tons of great 815 01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:28,000 speakers and if you haven't listened, to the last couple of weeks. At 816 01:01:28,039 --> 01:01:30,239 the end of the event, I'm going to be doing a live Q and 817 01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:36,360 A with some of the speakers from the event. So if you have specific 818 01:01:36,480 --> 01:01:38,599 questions you want me to ask, specific people you want me to talk to 819 01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:43,519 after the event, hit me up on Twitter, let me know who you 820 01:01:43,559 --> 01:01:45,800 want me to talk to, what you want me to ask them, and 821 01:01:45,039 --> 01:01:52,400 I will work those questions into the live session, assuming that it's questions that 822 01:01:52,559 --> 01:01:58,360 I can legally ask on air. There is that disclaimer because it's the Internet. 823 01:01:59,039 --> 01:02:00,559 You wouldn't have had to, you know, give that disclaimer unless someone 824 01:02:00,559 --> 01:02:06,199 already sent you some questions which you know you can't share there. There are 825 01:02:06,239 --> 01:02:15,400 a few that I will not be sharing right just just I'll just say that 826 01:02:15,679 --> 01:02:27,320 the Internet has not disappointed my request. It is alive and well. And 827 01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:30,039 on that note, jose thank you for joining us on the show. This 828 01:02:30,119 --> 01:02:34,280 has been super cool. It's been really interesting and I'm excited to go and 829 01:02:34,559 --> 01:02:38,079 try this out because I loved Heroku, haven't used it, and I think 830 01:02:38,159 --> 01:02:45,480 this kind of fits in with the the trajectory that I see the industry moving 831 01:02:45,639 --> 01:02:50,920 as far as like being away from the big cloud providers and towards regaining control 832 01:02:51,079 --> 01:02:53,760 of your own infrastructure. I think this is a cool way to accomplish those 833 01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:57,559 objectives. So thank you for coming on the show and telling us all about 834 01:02:57,599 --> 01:03:00,400 it. Thank you for having me Yeah for sure. If people want to 835 01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:05,760 reach out to you and learn more about the project or how they can help 836 01:03:05,960 --> 01:03:08,280 or something like that, what's the best way to hit you on the internet. 837 01:03:09,119 --> 01:03:12,599 We have a slack and we have a discord. You camp me up 838 01:03:12,719 --> 01:03:20,440 at the twitter at twitter handle. If you have massed on around hackey gun 839 01:03:20,719 --> 01:03:24,400 as the and again, we can go to dokey dot com and we'll get 840 01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:30,239 awesome. Right on, Arren, thanks for joining me on this episode. 841 01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:35,159 Appreciate having me here. Of course I enjoyed it right on, And to 842 01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:38,320 all the listeners out there, whether you're listening to us on the recorded podcast, 843 01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:44,719 do your favorite podcast player, or you're catching the live streams on LinkedIn, 844 01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:50,320 YouTube, Twitch, or x that are broadcasting every Tuesday at seven thirty 845 01:03:50,480 --> 01:03:55,440 or ten thirty am Eastern and Pacific, thank you for listening and we'll see 846 01:03:55,480 --> 01:03:57,079 y'all next week.