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fifty percent off. Now, PW Torch and Spreaker bring you the Wide Killer
Pro Wrestling Podcast. It's time for this week's Interview Classic where Wade Killer Interview
is one of pro Wrestling's newsmakers ten years ago. This week, I was
joined by two EXWWE Creative Team members, Matt McCarthy and Edrew Goldstein and also
Pro wrestler Just Incredible, former ECW champion and WWWE wrestler, and we review
the year twenty twenty three. It made some bold predictions for twenty twenty four.
Including thoughts on potential wrestulminga thirty matches twenty twenty thirteen, busts, thoughts
on Dot B network, t Anda's future, and more. This is part
two of a two part show. Part one was dropped here on the weight
Keller Pro Wrestling podcast feed yesterday, and this is the second half a little
longer than the first half, if that's mathematically possible. And it is our
first weight Killer Prosing Podcast episode of the new year. So happy New year
everybody. It is January first, twenty fourteen. So if you have not
listened to part one of this conversation, I certainly would recommend you start there.
Just scroll down to that episode and download and listen to that first,
and then come back for this one. All right, we now move to
the VFP after show portion of the show. Let's begin with a prediction on
the WWE network and thoughts on what shape it's going to take and the number
of subscribers they've been talking about one to two million. Uh, just some
general thoughts from you guys predicting twenty fourteen success or failure for the WWE network.
Guy, let's begin with Matt on this one. I mean there is
something just universally appealing about pro wrestling. I think, just in general for
the viewing public. And that being said, I think paying upwards of fifty
dollars to seventy dollars for a pay per view like WrestleMania, let's say that
that limits your audience. Now, if they're going to be putting WrestleMania on
this SEWW network, and if it's going to cost you know, ten bucks,
fifteen bucks, I don't know. They may, they may get over
a million, you know, they very well might. I would never in
a million years even attempt to make an estimate or make a prediction, but
because I can see it going either way, but just shared why, I
think they may get a lot of people, hopefully if they are smart enough
to not get in their own way and just show old wrestling and not turn
them to another network full of god awful reality TV. Though I would say
I'm very much looking forward to Legends House. I know I've been waiting to
see this for a long time that yes, I need to see these episodes.
But I agree with Matt. It should mostly just see old matches.
It should just be WWE classics on demand. But the channel, let's let's
Andrew, you're since you've chimed in already, what what kind of level of
success do you think they'll have and will it include? Do you think it
will include WrestleMania, all pay per views or some sort of ex world.
Why do you think this will evolve? I'm uh, I don't have the
biggest opinions on the network. I just I think it has to involve some
sort of you know, incentive for people who purchase the channel to be able
to view pay per views. There's no way they can expect people to pay
monthly for a channel and then also pay monthly for their pay per views,
So I think that has to be incorporated in some way. I don't know
what the pricing is going to be like, but like Matt said, if
those things are wrapped in it, you know I would I never doubt vincetick
Man. So he says they're gonna have over a million subscribers. You know,
I put my money with Vince Man. How many times has that guy
been wrong in terms of business decisions? The XFL, the World nightclub,
the boxing and there's been a few. But I know what you say,
ed comes to break. This is what's interesting about the network. I'm saying
it directly involved with wrestling. No, No, that's what I was going
to say, Andrew. It's what's interesting about this is it is kind of
a hybrid between the two. It's pro and I wrote about this in the
news letter this on my page to Radar column that this is a really seismic
shift in the way that wrestling is presented. And I'm kind of curious on
all of your opinions on this tool, though I do want to get justin
thoughts on the network, but this kind of plays into it is does putting
pay per views on the network, and we won't call them pay per views
anymore. They just become monthly live specials essentially. Will wwe approach those differently
because they've had to build towards themed pay per views where maybe the timing didn't
work out to put people in hell on a cell or put people in a
chamber or whatever, and sometimes it just got the pacing of a storyline on
television watched by five six million people. They would have done differently if they
didn't have to promote this damn pay per view on Sunday. And so once
they get people with this recurring subscription paying a lower monthly fee. Do the
live events become less important than trying to keep raw ratings up and SmackDown ratings
up because there's this big TV network deal coming up. I'm kind of curious
too, how it is kind of part two of this of the question about
the network is how does it change the way WWE operates In a way I
think they'll exhale and go, oh, we got this guaranteed money for the
next two to three years with its network conglomerate. On our new TV deal,
we double or triple our money. We have half a million to two
million people whatever it is, paying ten fifteen bucks a month, and it's
renewing. We don't have to hard sell anybody anything anymore. We can just
present in a weekly wrestling series that's entertaining but not actually promote matches and feuds
that people feel the need that they have to watch. They just sort of
become like viewers are of Jimmy Kimmel. It's just something to tune into pass
some time and some characters that they like. And it is a very different
business. And that's one of the things I wrote about in the newsletter this
week. So justin your thoughts on the network and maybe what I just said
to well, I mean, it's look, we don't know what to expect,
but I believe it's somewhere in the middle of what both of you guys
said. I think it's going to be uncharted territory. I think the originals
the initial subscription will be a little soft. I think it'll be in the
range of fifty thousand, maybe a little higher. But I don't think it's
going to get into the million, you know. I think people are gonna
want to see what it is. I think if it is presented as you
know classics, you know, like how the Classics on demand. Everybody loved
that. I mean, I had that for Christ's sake, you know,
it was it was a good deal. We watched old school wrestling, a
lot of stuff, you know, great content, and they know how to
produce great content, but don't get it twisted, you know. And they
have a great library of pro wrestling. You know. If they get some
you know, some reality stuff, I'm sure they will do. It'll it'll
be it'll be interesting to see, but it will change the way pay per
views or their live or whatever events, whatever you want to call it.
The events, you know, their special live events, you know, their
pay per views will be it's going to change it. Yeah, I think
the focus will be then shifted. It'll be you know, it'll be a
definite experimentation. I don't think they fully know what to expect. I don't
think anybody knows this is it really. I mean, if they're telling you,
they know they're lying, you know, because this is this is a
huge shift. You're going to selling paper views to Quite frankly, you're you
know, you're selling your brand right now. You know, it's going to
be no different than an HBO uh to subscribe to WWE. So it'll it'll
be very interesting, of course, you know, I think they'll keep their
major you know, Survivor series, Summer Slams, WrestleMania's Royal Rubbles, of
course, but uh, you know, I think the other ones will be
uh, you know, will be subject to evaluation and what they feel is
right for the network and how else. And believe me, Vince ain't going
to be satisfied with that. He'll find another way to pimp his his stuff,
to make other you know, to make more money on the you know,
outside of the network. When when he's comfortable with what he has,
so it's definitely going to be interesting. I think eventually it will be slow,
but I think eventually he will succeed because there is still a great demand
for this business. But I do, I do worry that the demand of
progress thing really is is starting to dwindle. You know, the numbers of
the you know, for the raw broadcasts, and you know, just in
general of just being out there and interacting with fans on a weekly basis and
you know, doing what we do. Wait, you know, I just
see that the business to me at least, is at an all time like,
eh, you know, So I just think a new concept is going
to have to come. Uh. I think the old guard that's there now
is going to have to go and some real new ideas are going to have
to pop up to really take it to the level that Vince's envisioning. But
you know, if they're not, you know, there'll be the Evince and
Company or their own worst enemies. Sometimes they're brilliant and they're also very ignorant.
So I think that if they, you know, if they could somehow
bridge the gap and not be so self absorbed and think outside the box.
I think the business will flourish. And unfortunately WW is the business and you
know it's it's scary, but that's going to be the way of the next
five years. So but I still think it will work out. I still
think that the B two B network will work out, but soft at first.
And Matt, you were you were there when the network discussion was Vinces
like, we want to do this, we want to do this, We're
going to make it happen. Uh, where do you from a timeline standpoint?
And and this over the top format that appears to be the direction they're
going in, although we'll know more next week a press conference. I assume
how do you think Vince is looking at the network today compared to his original
vision for it? How how do you think it's changed and and how do
you think it will change the way that they write and promote matches. I
don't think Vince, Matt, we're losing again. We're getting some bad recept
You're not sure, but the deal is I don't know. I think all
right, no, reading that, okay, I don't think there's any way
that Vince's vision has changed. It's just instead of it being on you know,
cable it's going to be on whatever, streaming, the internet, whatever
you want to call it. I'm sure there's not a doubt in Vince's mind
that it's going to be successful as far as it doesn't even necessarily have to
change the way that they promote what used to be pay per views, which
will now be I don't know, network shows are just big shows because it's
nothing needs to change. Really. All it is is that, if you
want to look at it this way, they are increasing the value of the
pay per views and decreasing the cost of the consumer. Meaning if I'm just
you know, like me, for example, I am a big enough fan
and a big enough dope that I am going to shell out the fifty bucks
every month just to watch this one pay per view show. But now you're
telling me I can shell out fifteen bucks and watch that one pay per view
show and twenty four hours a day of all the wrestling that exists, you
know, the rest of the month. Y Yeah, I mean it's it
is so enticing to me, and it really if they did something as Brashes
broadcasting Raw and smack Down on the network, you know, I have no
shame in saying I will cancel my cable. That's the only thing keeping me
cooked in, you know, because I got Hulu, I got Netflix.
I got no reason because and I don't watch live sports. This is the
only live sport that I watch, you know, And if it's being presented
somewhere else for a fraction of the cost on the in yep, and I
don't think it has I don't think it has to change any of the storylines
or any of the the way it's presented because you're still building to that event
and you're still trying to entice people to put their money down to watch it,
because it's if they do include WrestleMania, this Wrestumia thirties on the network.
The way that I would envision it is, by the time we get
to WrestleMania thirty one, now that's back on regular pay per view, and
then you know, if you're into the network, you've had an entire year
to see how great the network is, You're still going to be hooked into
the network. That's that would be my assumption. Let me let me go
to Andrew. Now let's change subjects. I want a prediction. I'm going
to give four names. Who has a better year and is in a better
position at the end of twenty thirteen, who rises more bray Wyatt, Damien
Sandout, Roman Reigns or Biggie Langston. Four people seeming to be in a
position to get a push Andrew. Who has a better year and who is
a bust cool? Great question? In fact, after this question, I
unfortunately have to say goodbye to everybody. But okay, let's see. I
would say it's, you know, the smart money's on bray Wyatt, but
I would I would go with the Roman rain, you know, breaking him
off from the shield, which the seeds have been planted for that in the
last couple of rows, and just his work in the ring and the possibilities
for matches and his look and everything. The only thing you know that bray
sort of has over him is you know, character and promo. But I
think Roman Range has a top baby face a year from now. I can
completely see that. I could completely see that guy being this sort of herculean
you know, top baby face a year from now then obviously bray Wyatt definitely
in that conversation, and I like, you know, like I said,
the comeback top babyface fire that I've seen from Giggy Langston I'm slowly becoming a
believer with the fans getting behind that guy stand out. I feel like he's
swimming in an abyss of mediocrity right now. Unfortunately not not his fault,
but I think they've run out of stuff to do with him right now.
But yeah, yeah, I'm putting my money with Roman reins futures. Bet
Andrew, thank you, thanks for being on the show. Thank you,
PJ. Nice to nice to talk with you. Matt, always a pleasure,
sir, and Wade, thank you always for having me on. Happy
Year to everybody, and check out my column Goldstein on wrestling PW Mania.
I love you guys, looked over it. I likes I like your pet
peech from glancing at and I'm gonna get that a good read. Thanks man.
You bet all right by Matt, PJ. Let me check with you
because I said, we go about ninety we're at that point. You guys
have five ten more minutes to hit a couple other subjects rapid fire because of
course with cool and Matt A sure cool good, all right, So same
question, I'll go to you, PJ. Next, Bray White, Damien
Sano, Roman Reigns or Biggie try to pick one guy that you think will
have the best year and be higher than everybody else at the end of the
year, And is there a bust in there that you could see happening.
Who might bust? I say Bray only because of the way they're you know,
they're they're using him now. I think he's a very talented guy.
I think his delivery is amazing, you know, very engaging, you know,
the stuff, the work he's been doing, very convincing and in his
role. You know, I think he's money. The bust that I see,
not that I think he's not. You know, in no way am
I saying that that he's bad. But I think, you know, the
one guy I could see that fumbling up is the one we talked about earlier,
is Picky, And I think that's the you know, that that could
go either way. I think, you know, if if he's able to
find his niche and kind of get his get a groove going, and you
know, kind of ride that wave and find out who he is, and
I think he'll he'll have success. He certainly has a look, and he
has fire and he has ability. So but I also think that that could
burn quickly too, if if you know, on his you know, if
he's not ready for so, but I don't know, you know, so
I think that those are my two picks. I think bray Is is definite
money, you know, and uh and the you know, we'll shoot what
happens, and I met I think the smart money is Roman Reigns because and
especially thinking back to his NXT stuff before, before the Shield, he definitely
he had the air of already kind of being money, being a money player.
He's great looking, he's got a great look. He's can clearly talk
and clearly work and clearly has the blessing of Mount Olympus, you know.
And the bust I mean has to be Damian Sandow just because I guess,
I guess Mount Olympus is bored with him now, because it's just I don't
get it. I don't understand. I don't It shouldn't have derailed him so
much, cashing in and not getting it. It's a character like that needs
to have things to complain about, you know, And that's why it's it's
I mean, he's gonna wind up. It's not gonna be as bad as
what was his gamick when he first came in. When he's in that tag
team. Oh anyway, I can't think of it, but it won't be
as bad as all that. But I feel like he could wind up being
like a miss whereas like they've they've taken away his confidence, you know,
like they've definitely taken away miss confidence. And I feel it isn't that isn't
isn't isn't that the fault of the ww EI though in general, absolutely that's
what kills me. The way we're talking, this is all on them.
Shouldn't they try to? I mean, I mean, I didn't mean to
touch you off, brother, I'm so sorry. It's just, you know,
I just I just think that it's it's up to them to try to
they as many guys possible, even if you're making them do the job or
whatever, just but to try to keep everybody relevant. But these are your
money players. These are guys that you're trying to work with. It's not
like these people grow on trees, you know, So I just you know,
it's like these guys. Everybody is so short sighted over there. Sometimes,
you know, they get they get wrapped up in their ways and it's
like, oh, we're going to go with this guy and fuck everything again
sorry to ask for everybody else, you know, it just gets me crazy
and I don't know, man, it doesn't have to be Oh well,
I think the problem. You're absolutely right, and that's the problem because I
think the excuse me, I think the mentality is the thinking is, well,
if if he's losing his confidence, then he didn't have it to begin
with, you know, because like if looking at it from like a physical
point, like a physicality standpoint of like you know, guys breaking into the
business and that like like like veron Gania, for example, he would he
would work guys so hard that he only got the best of the best,
the guys who could who could take it, you know, and he conditioned
them that way. I worry that like Fins or whoever, is now trying
to do it mentally with guys like eventually, yes, if they don't have
the mental briefness then because it's because unfortunately you do have someone like a CM
Punk, Whereas at no point could you ever even as a viewer, not
just somebody on the inside, even as a viewer, believe that cmpunk lost
his confidence. No matter what they were doing to him, he still he
was, He knew who he was and he believed it, and then because
that means a lot. That means a lot when you're done with with all
the backs that you know what it's like. I never I never thought of
it the way you said it. But you're right on the money, right
on the money with that. Yes, yeah, you're absolutely because it's still
at alpha dog, alpha male mentality and uh no, you're absolutely right.
Yeah yeah, so that yeah, absolutely, dude. Well, invite you
to email the show with feedback or questions or comments. That email address is
Wade Keller Podcast at pwtorch dot com. That's Wadekeller Podcast at PW torch dot
com. Also welcome your feedback on Twitter. You can follow us on Twitter
at PW torch and follow me at the Wade Keller. That's at PW Torch
and at the Wade Keller. I want to bring up four wrestlers who have
main event at pay per views but are teetering a little bit right now.
I don't know a teetering's word for Cmpunk, but he's in this mix who
has a better but Sembunk's teetering just in the sense of, you know,
he's on Twitter complaining about the travel I'm hearing from people on the inside.
He's talking about, I'm over this pro wrestling thing. I don't need any
more money to be happy the rest of my life. It's hard on my
body. I hate the politics. All that stuff so teetering in the sense
that you know, maybe management lose it, tries to get as much as
they can out of him till wrestling at thirty and they start looking else for
self preservation. So Cempunk, Daniel, Bryan Seamous, and Wade Barrett all
main events of pay per views before who ends up better off at the end
of the year, who's in a strong position? And of those four,
name one or two who you think are are in a weak position. I'll
start with you, Matt this time. Wow. I mean it's tough just
because I mean the obvious choice would be I don't know, man, I'm
worried about what they're Brian, because there is so much money in that guy,
and I don't know if they realize it yet. I know, Matt,
sorry to interrupt, but let me ask about Brian. Do you think
Monday's angle gave you more or less confidence or are you just more confused about
whether Triple hminsic man Kevin dounstepfan. They see him as a money guy,
because I'm not quite sure anybody sure. I'm not sure how to interpret that
yet. But how about you when you saw that angle on Monday, did
that make you think, Oh, they're starting to get it with Brian,
They're doing something big with him, or all the just to try to get
him out of the way and get fans off their backs, so he's on
a baby face anymore. I well, I like what happened on Monday.
I feel like it was miss timed. I feel like they missed an opportunity
because they kidnapped the guy and then there was conflicting reports of Brian is still
missing, Brian was found in a parking lot Brian, and then he was
just back on TV and everything was fine, you know, whereas they're doing
what they should have done. Now that being said, I don't know where
it's going to go. I mean, look at it this way. I
want to watch next week. I want to see what's going to happen.
They piqued my interest, they piqued my curiosity, and I think, especially
for bray Wyatt, you have to keep bray Wyatt strong. I mean,
I think what would have worked best is if we had actually seen him him
being bray Wyatt brainwashed Luke Harper, you know, like he met Brodie Lee
and then Brainwashington says, you're not Brodie Lee, You're Luke Harper now,
and then brainwashes Eric Rowan. And then maybe even if they if somebody else
maybe had put in a third or or a diva, if they had brainwashed
you know whoever, and then you you already saw the power of Bray White
because at this point it's like he had to brainwash Daniel Brian or maybe brainwashes
the wrong word, at least indoctrinate him, get him into his little cult,
because then it's because if he doesn't, then you start questioning, well,
I guess Bray why it's all talked. You can't get anybody to follow
them, you know, because so where they're at right now is the place
where they need to be. But who's going to come out stronger because ultimately,
formally he's going to look foolish. Either Brian is going to be brainwashed
and stay healed, which I don't see being a smart way to go,
or he's fooling bray Wyatt, which kind of makes it brings Bray down a
little bit, or or the third option would be that the wrong fans are
the ones that are able to pull Brian back out of the abyss, you
know, and then everybody's still strong. Bray was able to brainwash him and
Brian was able to overcome it, you know, right, And if if
the idea, if Monday's angle is actually an abandoned abandoning the idea of Sena
Bray, whyat which was you know, an idea the last week or two.
If they're saying, no, let's do let's do this Brian angle because
we don't have anything else for him. We need him in something. Daniel
Brian against Bray White, Let's do a big angle. So that's one of
the top five matches that MADIA. But they're going a different direction with Sina,
maybe related to Hogan or Brock or who knows, because there's a talk
of Brock Lesnar not wanting to go down and working with Undertaker on his match.
It's just not something Brock wants to take time out to do, so
they might have to shift to a different opponent. But if that's the case,
Daniel Brian seems like the b plan, So then yeah, I don't.
It's it's there's a lot of moving parts out there. But Matt,
back to the original question, I guess because we straight off a little bit,
Barrett, Shamus, Punk, Brian, Uh can you can you hone
in on who you think will have a good year? I know there's a
lot of variables and who will be a bust. I don't think Sam Punk
can have a bad year at this point in his career, so I think
he's at the top of the list. Brian. Brian is the X factor
because the fans see it, and I know the workers see it. I
don't know if the powers that be necessarily see it or can see past you
know, their own shortsightedness about body type or whatever. So really, between
Wade and Seamus, I think Wade is probably going to have the better year,
just because he's the better talker. Like Wade, Beard is a tremendous
talker. The bad news Baired thing has been pretty dead in the water.
Hasn't really grabbed me at all, but it's just a misuse of a very
very good talker. As far as Seamus goes, I don't know, because
I know that they're high on him, but I don't know where you go
with him, because it just feels like he's just going to wind up being
you know, just a just a mid card baby base, which is not
there's nothing wrong with that, but it's the idea that he like, you
know, like Justin said, before, he was a world champion, he
was king of the ring. He's you know, they stopped short of calling
him the next big thing, but it's there is something missing. There has
always been just one thing missing with Shamus. I've always felt that it should
just be you know, he shouldn't be squeaky clean. He should be a
brawler, and he should be a booze bag, and he should be getting
the bar from that side, you know, just go for it. Make
him, you know, the drunken Irish brawler, like go full go with
it. I just feel like they keeps hesitating with Shamus. Justin same topic
to you, Now, Wow, I agree with see him punking at the
top of that list, like he said. I mean I was thinking of
the same things you know you were thinking. Bro. I don't believe that
right now he could, you know, I think he's beyond anything that the
ww could possibly do to him. From a pr standpoint. If there was
anything going on or whatever. I think he's you know, I think he's
proven his metal Daniel Bryan. I don't see him being all the way up
there. I think he still has you know, there's a lot of uncertainty
of where he will lie now where where Matt said Shamus. I believe it's
way bird only because I think Wade Baird will have the worst year. Only
because I think, you know that the thing he's doing is just been received
so poorly by by the fans and by me. You know, I don't
I try to find the humor in it, Like I listened intently, you
know, when the stand comes up and stuff, and you know I'm trying
to get it. I just don't, you know, I don't know where
the humor is, you know, I just don't. I don't know.
Maybe it's me let me cut you off that Fridaecond, because you know what
I could work with Wade Barrett is because this past Monday was the first time
that I ever liked it, even just kind of just because it was so
preposterous, because that the podium just kept rising and it kept getting higher and
higher, and then he had the gavel and then he's just whacking the gavel.
It's like, if you have a heel that thinks they know everything,
they have to be ludicrous, like it has to like make it, taking
it over the over the top kind of right. That was He's always serious.
Everything he says here means, but it's sure you have to you have
to if he's going to be that pompous, there has to be that,
you know, there has to be that balance to it where it's ridiculous,
because like I feel like they don't do enough of that with where heels are
also very funny. No, they don't at all, unfortunately, But no,
I see what you're saying with that. I mean, you know,
you know, yeah, it's you know, I mean, I'm on the
fence with that. You know, I'd hate to think the only reason I
say I protect Seamus from it is because I know Turple h likes Seamus.
I know for a fact. She told me personally. I saw I saw
Hunter two years going on three years now at the Moheaton Sun Casino and we
talked about Seamus, and he was a wicked high on him. You know.
So I mean, I mean that's dated information. That's dated information,
But you know, I mean that was then, and you know, I
I but I am. I'm a little against you know, I just wasn't
getting the way bear thing. But uh, you know, I don't know.
In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and ultimately the brand
you see today. On the Torch VIP podcast NXT Eight Years Back, we'll
be taking a week look at this page in NXT's early history. Join Kelly
Wells and me Tom Stout from p WT Talks NXT every Saturday as we go
eight years back to the day to track NXT's rising talents and why they did
or didn't work out exclusively for p W Torch VIP members, wrestling Dude,
to me, all of the stuff that's going on doesn't excite me. That's
my problem, like I and I hate to admit it, and I will,
you know, especially for the DP members of the church. But I
hate to admit it. But I do this because I kind of have to.
Because if it wasn't for me being in this business, I wouldn't watch.
That scares me, you know, it scares me. I love,
I love wrestling, but I shouldn't have to watch like you know, old
school VHS. Is that I have of, you know, wrestling, because
you know, the stuff unraw makes me mad or Mark Mark Mark. Mark
Madden brought that up on Tuesday, like, why is the best wrestling that
I've seen in the last three months? The Best of the Mid South DVD
and the you know Jim Crock promotion documentary and that kind of thing. Right,
But no, Yeah, he's right though Wait didn't you know it too?
I mean, if we don't, right, but when you do,
Cherry and I'm not, I'm not. I'm just making this point when you
cherry pick the absolute best of forty years of history and then hold quote unfair
Mark, But I know what he's saying, and I don't. I just
I you're right though you're no, You're absolutely right, And I never looked
at it the way you just said it. You're right, You're looking at
that. You know, it's almost like looking at a sport and saying,
look, we're taking the all stars and talking about the all stars. So
you know, but I just feel like, as a as a whole,
I think the lack of of options in wrestling viewing. You know that you
and I have talked about several times on the live cast with T and A
being the only alternative quite for to to w w EE. You know,
I think that hurts and I think, you know, ring of honor being
you know, it's it's what it is, and nothing against the product,
but you know, I just think that as fans, we really don't have
my I think we're more critical today because there is so much less of doing
choices for us of the hardcore wrestling fans that I think that's why we we
are so passionate that that's WWE product. You know, definitely have to work
a lot harder, Like I'm going to be staying up all night tonight to
watch New Japan, you know, and because that's the choice, Like,
well, I got to see some some awesome wrestlers and I need it.
Yeah, Okay, I got to throw one more of these lists of four
wrestlers out there. I think these are four wrestlers also in a somewhat similar
grouping as the previous two groups of four, who breaks out from the situation
there and now and becomes a single star that n McMahon is thinking about every
week, because that's a big matt You can agree with me on that's what
or disagree, but isn't there's a select group of people that vincick Man is
actually thinking about constantly, you know, like when you have to come up
with ideas for him. Which of these four guys who are not there yet
get to that level this year, Cody Rhodes, Antonio Czarro, Jack Sweger
or del Ziegler or none of the above. Who's got the best chance?
I think and TONI might have the best chance. Yeah, because he came
in, he was very hot. Everybody was high on him. Then they
cooled out him for a little while. It was never made clear why,
and now it seems as though whatever it is that they felt was lacking or
needed to change has changed and they seem like they're a little higher on him
again. Yeah. Plus just I mean, physically, he's just very impressive.
Yeah. The defeats of strength that he can command in the in the
ring are just outstanding. Whether or not he could break away from Dutch without
him being a mouthpiece, whether or not they think he's strong enough on the
mic, or if they feel like, you know, I know, a
lots of times the concern is the English clear enough for the average viewer to
understand. I don't know that's I don't think that that's I don't think having
someone paired up with a manager is a bad thing, whereas I think the
mentality sometimes can be that it's that it brings the guy down somehow, which
which I just think is stupid. But I think out of those four,
I don't know Cody might be. Of the four, which one do I
want to have the best year? The Dulph Ziggler. I mean, I
don't understand the twenty thirteen that Dulph Ziggler has, and I really hope that
twenty fourteen just makes us forget about it. Matt, do you think he's
got a little too billy gun on us with the chewing gum and wiggling his
ass and and just like, I'm what you just said is how I felt
about Dell Sigler a month or two ago. And I'm just I'm starting to
watch him and I'm starting to think he's going the direction of Miz where there's
a level of obliviousness to what is your role in how should you come across?
And I don't know that he has a sense of that right now.
I just the little pink highlights in his hair on Monday, chomping on the
gum, which I just think that's not what babyfaces do. And the little
Chippendale dance wagging his ass at the crowd. It's just like Billy Gunn didn't
get over as a top act. And I'm not saying Dolph isn't better than
Billy gun in most ways, and most ways he is, but he's started
to look more like him than the next Rick Flair or the next you know,
Steve Austin or Sean Michaels was a black guy most often compared to him.
Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what would be best for
him right now. I don't know if what he's doing right now is best
for him. It's I don't even know if it necessarily fits his character because
he is he is supposed to be what's supposed to be a show off show,
to be a you know, I'm better than you. Yeah, I
don't know. I don't know because I mean that because that attitude can work
as a baby face without turning off you know fans, or particularly male fans.
You know. No, there was a moment with dolphine color commentary and
he just talked this week in an interview were last week in interview about wanting
to go you know that he thinks when Westling's is over, he might do
some comedy. And he's got, you know, pretty quick with There was
a moment where he sat down and part of me thinks once to think it
was Jim Ross that he was talking to, but I don't remember who the
annunceers were for sure. But he insulted one of the people on the at
the announced table and then and it was just a blamt insult and he goes,
oh, but no offense, and his delivery and his timing, I
was just spectacular. And that's when I said, this is a guy who
they shouldn't be, you know, scripting too heavily, because they're something here
where there's something. There's a natural wit, a quick wit to him,
and I want to see them take advantage of it. And I'm not sure
that I'm seeing that right now. And he just said on Monday again,
no offense, and that's what reminded me of it. That was a moment
where I just thought it sometimes it's just that little spark that turned that where
you go, oh, that's what we got to do with this guy.
And so while you were there and Dolph was was there a couple of years
back, just over a year ago, did you see some Sparks and Dolph
that that would have caused you to steer him in a certain direction different than
where he is now. Not necessarily, but you're one hundred percent right that
his comic comedic timing is very good. And he's definitely, you know,
taken like improv classes and he's and he started doing you know, some open
mics here and there, and he is kind of, you know, a
little a little bit of an unsung hero among a lot of the comedians I
know that are wrestling fans, done some of our shows and stuff. And
I think that can only it can only benefit him. And I think maybe
it goes back to what I was saying before, because like heels are supposed
to be funny, there's part of that, like that part of that being
oh, but no offense, you know that that wink to the camera of
like, well, we know that he's being a complete jerk right now.
And it's hilarious, you know, like just Buddy Rogers saying, you know,
to a nicer guy, it couldn't have happened. It's it's it's that's
hysterical. But it's also heat. And then he gets in the ring and
he and he works such a spectacular match and he sells so damn hard.
It's it's hard for not I guess there needs to be Maybe you're onto something.
Maybe that is where it is, where he's instead of being like Bo
Dallas, where he's clearly a heel but thinks he's a babyface. Maybe he's
clearly a babyface, but he thinks he's a heel. Right, thanks for
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listening experience. PW torch dot com slash go vi ip. Yeah, it's
no offense commer reminded me of h I was ten years ago when Ellen did
a bit about you know, I think it was you run into somebody in
the elevator and they go, oh, nice haircut, just kidding and where
you know you can't you can't just kidding? Does any race what you just
said? And you know that adult did the no no comment thing. That
was funny. I just had a panic attack that I hadn't gotten to Andrew
and a w and then I forgot that he left the show. But I
heard a chime, Justin, did you drop off accidentally? Are you there?
I guess the non response is he's gone, so he might come back.
Maybe something happened, yeah, Matt, so h Cody, oh now
just in fact, justin, let me let me throw to you on that
question. Now that you time back in, Cody, Cesarro, Sweger,
and Ziggler, your thoughts on who will have the best year in the worst
year. I would like to say, God, that's that is tough,
but yeah, I mean my favorite is my favorite is Ziggler for all the
reasons that you know we were talking about before, you know, I got
cut off. I think his work is top notch. I'd say he's almost
top five on the roster as far as as takes work, you know,
physicality, whatever he's doing is amazing. But you know, reality, you
know what, you know what surprises me the most. I'll get to my
point real quick, Jack Swagger, you know, because I always thought he
was the prototype for a WDB main eventor good looking guy, big tall,
you know what I mean. He had every good billion you know, he
the wrestling ability. He's somebody that I certainly thought over underachieved. So you
know, it's it's still amazing to me that he's you know, not broken
through the way I thought he would, you know, because really he has
all the you know, the recipe for success in that ww is you know,
size, statu or looks, you know, the u the shoe credibility
with the wrestling and stuff. Well, the moral, you know, I
always thought he the moral justin is don't fall asleep in a book in a
production meeting in the midst of getting a big push. Well, I mean
I'm not saying that's the only reason, but that was not a good you
know, No, I mean it seems probably don't look for anything, you
know, I was. I had never heard I believe it or not.
I never heard of that one. I had never heard of. That's tremendous
first time hearing it. Great, but uh, you know years yeah,
such your old life. But you know, I don't know, man,
Look they're all I think all of those guys could could break out right now,
you know, And I don't think any of those guys would do.
You know. That's a hell of a question. And I don't see one
position more than the other. I know, Dolf right now is not necessarily
in favor with the office, or at least they're not booking him as as
such. Cizarro certainly is, you know, like Matt said, you know,
he's certainly impressive in every way, especially with his shows of strength.
And I think it's easy throwback to the old uh you know, Antonio Rocco
days, back in the in the old school w WWF days. And I
think Vince likes that. So I mean, but you don't know, you
never know, man, It's it's it's a crazy, you know, environment,
and you never know what's gonna catch on or what they feel will catch
on. So I mean, I'm not even gonna throw my head and I'll
just say, hell, I'll just say Dolph Sigur only because I'm a fan
of his. It should have enough year, you know, he should.
If he does himselfing's wrong somewhere. You know, maybe it's him, maybe
it's them, but you know, I think ability wise, it should be
him. Let's do one last big picture question here on twenty thirteen. Biggest
lost opportunity of twenty thirteen? Is there an angle of storyline a wrestler,
a push, an opportunity, and try to give a little extra thought to
the first six months of the year, because I know the last six is
more fresh in our minds. Kind of think about WrestleMania and the height for
that. But is there anything that jumps out as far and away the biggest
jaw dropping this opportunity by WWE or a lost opportunity by a wrestler in twenty
thirteen. Matt, you first, I don't know. I mean, it's
definitely well, I think I'm saying because I was twenty twelve, Yeah I
am. The first thing that came to my head was Abraham Washington. Oh
okay, yeah, but that's that's two years ago now. Yep. But
I guess in that same vein, I keep coming back to Damien Sandow.
You know, I guess I don't know why he would have, but I
think he took his blue robe and neckerchief and stuffed it into his money in
the bank briefcase when that briefcase van is so is his gimmick. Yeah,
And Dolf Siegler also is another missed opportunity. Think about how hot he was
at at Wressemania right afterwards and then the concussion, and then he talked about
that in that interview just in the last week or two, He's like,
I woke up by this pounding headache. And at first I was like,
I got to get back. I got to get back. I don't want
this opportunity of a career to go to fly by and not get it again.
And then he goes, and then the Haiks kept sticking around, and
I kept going, well, I ever get through have a good night's sleep
again? Will this headaches over going? He stopped worrying about his career,
and by the time he got back it seemed management visc Man stopped worrying about
his career, and it seems unfair and it doesn't make a lot of sense,
given how incredibly odd he was before the concussion. Yeah, I mean,
I mean I keep coming up with guys that I missed up with,
like Zach Ryder has been completely erased from history the last year, you know.
I mean, it's it's there is a place for a guy like that.
There's place for like God, I mean Tyson Kidd and Churt Hawk and
the other incredible workers. Yeah, you know, nothing but missed opportunities everywhere
you look. Justin want jump out topg WE. No, I mean,
I got my point to your question, but I agree there's so many missed
opportunities with all those guys. I couldn't agree with you more. I'm just
trying to jump in, but I won't out of respect. You're absolutely on
the money with all of those There's that. I think that's a big That's
the bigger picture problem with the WWE is there's very short sighted who they push.
But now the guy who I thought was the biggest missed opportunity, and
I think a lot of people might feel this way with the Daniel Bryan thing
going into SummerSlam and forward. I mean, at the end of twenty thirteen,
we had a couple. I have a tour of three really lousy,
lousy pay per views, you know, headlined by the chase of you know,
the Daniel Bryan Chase and pound for pound and pound screwfound pound for pound.
I mean, just pure entertainment value. I thought, regardless of his
size, I thought he was the most entertaining guy for the past you know,
three four months, you know, and and work wise, forget about
it. Jim Ross talks about it all the time. I read Jim Ross's
blog and a lot of you know, my peers, we talk about it
amongst each other that it was a huge missed opportunity and for whatever reason that
I'm not going to get into political stuff whatever, I don't know because I'm
not there, but I think we all thought that, you know, there
was a huge missed up oportunity, and you know, I think, you
know, it might come back to haunt him. I mean, I know
he's still very over, but they really missed the boat. You know.
I thought they really really missed the boat and they could have made a lot
of money with him. You know what the problem I think is, it's
not that they don't think they can make money with him, because obviously the
fans know, and the fans are telling Vince and Office and company that,
hey, we could make money with this guy. It's just I think it's
more ego, like, we don't want to make money with this guy.
You don't fit our mold. It's almost like a race, not race.
It's like wrestling racism, if that's is there could be such a term for
the WWE. It's like, you don't fit our mold. You're not our
kind. We don't want you. You're not six five, two ninety whatever.
You're not blonde hair, blue eyed, big beak. You ain't coming
this way. You know what I'm saying, Just what it is. If
you haven't read Run, if you haven't read Bruce Mitchell column yet on the
on theF website, the newsletter, as we check it out, because you
you will, I will. It's it's very poignant as far as this discussion,
Matt, Yeah, how about the Danny Bryan uh missed opportunity where you
know, and maybe it'sn't come to mind for you on your list because it's
at the top of mind because well, the guy headline for pay per views
in a row. How can you say it's a missed opportunity. But my
god, I mean you said it, right, I mean, like I
didn't think of him because he's at least on TV and they're doing something with
him, even if it's the complete wrong thing. But yeah, complete missed
opportunity. Yeah, I mean such such potential. I mean like honestly,
from SummerSlam on he didn't necessarily have to have the belt. Still, you
know, there is something to be said about Daniel Bryan chasing the belt,
but God, the way that they handled it was not the correct way and
did not it didn't well enhance anyone, right, right, right, But
this too, I mean they could the ww could paint a picture, a
perfect picture of anything, and they could have really painted the picture with the
crowd behind him, of him being the ultimate ultimate underdog who fought through all
the odds of the office of the you know all these you know, and
I mean, you know how it is they have magic back there with their
production with you know, they could have really made it. He could have
been the next you know, maybe not the John Cena, but that guy
right underneath Sena and you know he's still very popular, but you know it's
not. They took a lot of wind out of the sale of I think
they told a lot of harm to their potential moneymakers, which I don't get.
It's like they should be thinking, hell, let's just make money,
you know, and I think a lot of times they don't. You know,
they're not shirking themselves very much though. Yeah, there's no reason why
they ever yeah right right, yeah, yep, yep. And to me,
maybe a better version of Diamond Dallas page in WW, where there's this
enormous you know, Karen Sullivan as a booker built up the heels, and
you had the nWo, and you had just such a strong heel group of
heels, and and WW desperately needed babyfaces. And Sting was so inactive in
the rafters, and le Sluger didn't really click, and they were just and
Goldbert eventually came along, but people don't really think about it all that much.
But it was way after Nitro's peak that no Goldberg showed up. Roy
had already taken over ratings by the time Goldberg, so DDP was rising at
the time, Steve Austin was with that kind of common man unexpected rise and
and DDP was a very valuable person in the Mony Night War during Nitro's peak
ratings to be the workhorse while you had Sting in the rafters. And so
it's not a perfect analogy, but Daniel Bryn could have been that workhorse,
People's champion, people's choice, and the odds are against him all the time,
and he keeps winning. And there's I'm sure a lot of sports analogies
out there, probably specially in the NBA, where there's that that team that
wins but doesn't have a single star. It's the ensemble cast kind of what
Denver was going to be last year and didn't turn into that. And and
Danny Brian could have been that guy. And Sina doesn't need the title,
and and and can be the Sting, the icon, the guy who just
is the top star. Well, Daniel Bride's Orcros And yes it doesn't fit
mold, but you know, and that's the theme of Bruce's column is who
the hell do the fans thinks? They are trying to decide who they want
to pay to see and and tri relation basic man know this business and they
know what we'll work with the corporate sponsors. And I'm ruining Bruce's calumn a
little bit, but but he's like, you know, you fans, you're
so upset. You know, who are you to say who you want to
see in main events? Vincentriple Ah, you know this business. Shut the
hell up and enjoy what you're fed. And and that's I think the feeling
people got the last four months. I think that's part of the frustration you've
expressed, PJ and in watching the product. And I just sure Daniel Bryan
that what happened with him at Summers Fine when they pin John scene with the
hind knee and those three minutes before people woke up from the good dream that
they had and realized they were right back in you know, reality. That
was the peak of Daniel Brian's career, and it shouldn't have been. It
should have been the beginning of this unexpected let's Vincent man says, let's change
all plans, let's throw at all paradigms, the same way he did with
Steve Buston after Austin three sixteen at King of the Ring. Austin wasn't Lex
Schluger. He wasn't a tall, long blonde hair, smiling hero babyface.
He was the anti hero with a baldhead from the South. In a redneck.
But Vin saw somebody get hot and went with it, and he made
more money in three years four years than he would have. And they missed
that with Daniel Brian, and I just think that is the missed opportunity of
the year because of the scalable popularity the win at behind Brian sales that the
fans had given him. Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join
me Jason Powell, host of the three weekly Pro Wrestling Boom podcast. Each
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Subscribe and iTunes, Stitcher, Downcast, and all your favorite secondary apps,
or visit us directly at PW boom dot com. Once again, that's
PW boom dot com. That will be Vince's demise. Unfortunately, this will
be Vince's demise is the inability to notice the hot hand because Vince McMahon.
I have so much respect for Vince, for his whole family. I've known
Stephanie McMahon since she was sixteen, I have doc I could tell you stories
about Stephanie at sixteen. Dude, I know the family in shape. Well
anyways, all right, go ahead, you don't want to know, but
anyways, no, seriously, I do. I'm not kidding. I do
know the family, and I think the inability and the ego to go,
you know, everything is bigger. The thing is bigger than the wwe were
see back then, they were fighting to stay relevant with w c W.
It was a fight. We battled to stay alive in our lives, whether
it's professionally personally, but with social whatever do do we We fight to stay
alive, stay relevant. And I think when the competition disappeared that really it's
like, oh, we run, they are the show. But the Evince
got what he wanted, you know. I mean, I know TNA is
still along, you know, coming along whatever, they're doing what they do.
But the that competitive edge of we got to go with what's hot,
we got to go with Now they're just going with what they you know,
they know they're going to get their by rates, they know they're going to
get their audience. They know that this many people will spend their you know,
their money on the product. They know you know, it doesn't matter,
so they pick who they need or want. But back then it was
back then it was who it's going to be, who's going to draw no
issue, justin, let me, let me jump in, because what you
just said, I don't want to get too far away from that point,
and I want to expand on it. They now are in a mode where
the decisions they make are based on who will give us the least number of
headaches and who will look at literally, And this is what was so upsetting
about the authority storyline is I knew when the wrestlers stood on that stage in
Triple H and Stephanie said, don't don't even twitch your nose or you're fired.
It is how wrestlers are seeing behind the scenes as you are contractors working
for a corporation that is bigger than the industry, and you're interchangeable except for
John Cena and local message, and the message also is we want people,
and it goes to the Jack Swager comment too. We want people who won't
give us headaches and who don't show any level of disrespect or immaturity or lack
of appreciation and really a lack of humility to the royal McMahon family and the
empire that we have built, and the sheer privilege it is that you were
working for us, and and and the decisions that are made are not what
will draw the most fans next month, because if that was the case,
Daniel Brian would have been treated very differently this fall. The decisions are sure,
how can we wake up and have the least number of Ultimate Warrior style
head cases that we have to deal with. Because we're so rich and we're
going to be so profitable with this big TV deal and this network, we
don't actually have to sell tickets and promote anything anymore. We just need to
present a product and we want our lives to go nice and smoothly. So,
Matt, you were there just a little over a year ago, tell
me, does that picture that I painted gel it all with where you think
things have gone in the last year or two or what? Do you think?
You're probably onto something? I mean, when you need the analogy of
Vince doesn't recognize he's got a hot hand. It suddenly made me think of
comparing it to poker, where it is like he's been dealt, you know,
a royal slush. And then that somehow makes him angry because he's like,
I don't want it to just land in my hand. I want to
And then he throws his cards down because he wants to draw the cards himself.
He wants to do it. He doesn't want it to just be organic
and easy. There is something to that, because you know the expression is
true when they say necessity is the mother of invention. They had no he
had no choice but to go with Steve Austin because that's what made sense of
the time. It's I don't know, man, he does need that competition
or or at least something competition. It's competition, competition, that's what it
is. And he and he needs a TV network not willing to double the
money for a product that doesn't need to be hot or get hot to to
draw their audience. And if PG said one thing that they just they're going
to get their fans no matter what. I don't agree with that, and
I don't agree with the way that I at least interpreted the way you said
it, because I think the buy rates of this fall are as low as
they are in the Survivor series, did the lowest by rate it's done four
years. For a reason I don't think pay per view as a as a
category is dead or dying. I've done this in my business where you think,
well, like you know, the nine hundred business in the nineties,
I thought, oh, that's going away. The Internet's the way, sure,
And I kind of moved away from a nine hunter line business a little
soon because not everybody who's on the internet and there were still people who wanted
those daily updates after big news broke, and I kind of moved on to
the Internet a little too soon and away from the nine hundred line too soon
because it was a new shiny toy to play with. And I mean,
it's a smaller scale, it's a different thing. But I think they look
at pay per view and go, well, why are we working so hard
to promote and try to beg fans to buy things from us when we're the
man's we're WWE and these networks, these conglomerates via Common, Disney and on
and on are coming to us going please save our network. We're going to
hand you all this money. Who cares what the ratings are, just we
know you're going to deliver five million people a week for us. And I
think there's like this kind of. I don't. There's this sense that they're
kings on the hill and we won't. We don't. We want things a
certain way. We're not going to beg people to give us money anymore,
and we're just going to do things our way and we'll be fine without it.
I think the very right with that way. Yeah, you're here,
or you're here or year spot on. I couldn't. I couldn't agree with
that more. You No, you're absolutely right, and but that I think,
uh, you know who suffers in all this the sand the true fan,
and I think they they don't care who they offend if they're you know,
curists of the business or I mean, you know, Vince likes to
say, oh, you know, my father and the WWW after the rich
traditions, there's no care or that there. It's a corporate environment. It's
about making the most money. They know they've positioned themselves to you know,
they've monopolized the industry of sports entertainment as they coined it, and it is
what it is, and we're just gonna all have to, you know,
we either take it or we you know, as an audience stop watching,
which you know that's not gonna happen too, so we're just left with we're
just left with what it is, or or some you know, some rebel
guys gonna come up and give us something we all want, which I don't
see happening to either. I think I wonder if they're getting to the point
where almost daring people not to watch, in the sense of we're going to
do things our way and we're going to get a guarantee two three year deal
that's double trip of what we're used to. We'll launch this network where people
are just kind of it's ruling over each month, you know, just you
sign up, it's a lot of work to unsign up. And as long
as we give them something, they're probably gonna stick around. And there's this
taking the viewers and the customers for granted, and you know what, they
can probably ride that momentum from just the inertsihave of the fan base and the
people who are loyal to the brand. They can probably ride that for a
couple of years before there's you know, tragic drop offs. But they can't
get too complacent. They can't take people too for granted, or it will
hurt. And we could be talking in twenty seventeen, that necessity is the
mother of invention again, because they're in deep come twenty fifteen or twenty sixteen,
and that that's what I worry about. If that level of arrogance and
complacency is wanting comfort, is going to dry fans away who right now can't
imagine going a week without watching the product. I mention, I think go
ahead Metal. All say is because the nature of it being a corporation and
the nature of it being a publicly traded company, they're they are not beholden
to the fans or the audience. Yeah, they're beholden to stockholders. And
that is a great pointep And so it doesn't it literally doesn't matter to them
what the product is. All they're focused on is business deals and generating cash.
They're focused on this network supposedly being a lot of cash. Their new
TV deals are going to be a lot of cash. That is all they're
thinking about. They don't give a shy don't They don't give a darn about
you, me them, Daniel Bryan, any of us up. Give yourself
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if they it even crosses their mind how out of whack that is with what
got them to the dance, you know, I mean, it's so not
what got them to the point that they're at into a band. It's like,
you know what, and they are they're worried about the quarterly returns and
they're worried about the annual expectations and meeting expectations, you know, but they're
not gonna lot. Why I wonder why Shane McMahon's not with the company.
I think that has a lot to do with what we're talking about, because
I know Shane personally, and I've had conversations with Shane after he's left to
WWE, and I think that had a lot to do with it. Yeah,
I think we all underestimate what, you know, what we all think
the ww should be with this rich traditions and heritage, and quite frankly,
they are the ones responsible for carrying on the pro wrestling tradition right now.
Really, you know, they're the only representatives you know. And I think
you know, it's it's it's it's become a complete not that it shouldn't be.
Look, I'm not against capitalism and making the most money, but it's
it's such a sellout for like, look, i mean, you know how
much how much is you know, they're so the McMahon family is so well
off that it's just become Look, they if they can get away from pro
wrestling completely, they would, if they can call it another kind of entertainment,
take the ring out of you know, the arenas and just have whatever
it is they do that sports entertainment, you know, that enter, you
know, those those skits or whatever they would. You know, it's just,
you know, there's no care for what we I think as as fans,
reporters and analysts, you know, analysts or whatever care about you know.
And I'd love to big thing. I'd love to have Steve Austen and
and it's fresh in my mind because I transcribed it for this week's Newthwatter,
part five of the interview I did with him in November, and he's PJ.
He was just saying what you're saying. It's like, yeah, you
think endorsing what you're saying. He's like, people tune into wrestling to stee
wrestling matches and everything else. There are pieces, little pieces of promos and
skits and videos you need to promote it, but it all goes back to
wrestling. When you lose sight of that, the whole thing unravels and falls
apart. Steve puts it really well, and I'd be curious if Steve Austin
and let's just graduate Steve Austin and Shane McMahon were the people in great power
in WWE instead of Vince, Shane and or Vince, Stephanie and Hunter.
You know when say Jim Ross is in that inner circle too still with Steve
and and Shane. How would things be different and how would things be better?
You know who knows? It's just speculation, But I know when I
talk, when I interview Steve or when I listen to his podcast, I'm
nodding constantly along with him, and I really think he's fond of what works
in wrestling. And that chip on his shoulder isn't there That seems to be
there with Vince, seems to be there with Steph and Triple A just kind
of worked into agreeing with on a necessity. Perhaps Absolutely No, You're absolutely
right. I mean, look, Steve is. I mean, I've known
him for very many years before. Why I was friends with Steve when he
was in WCW team was Brian Pillman. I mean, I've done road trips
with Steve and he is He's extremely intelligent. He is he is one of,
if not the greatest draw in our business. I don't know the figures,
but I just know what I know, and he knows what works and
what doesn't. And I totally agree, and I think Shane had you know,
he didn't. I know that Shane didn't agree with a lot of the
stuff that was going on in the WWE, And you know, I just
think that, especially Jim Ross as well, he's a wrestling purist. What
goes on between you know, when the lights are shining on that ring,
that's what matters. It is still the pro wrestling. It's still the fight
game. I mean, even though it might be scripted, it is still
an offshoot of the fight business. And I think that's what draws as fans,
that's what draws interests, and that's what draws money. And when we
get look, if we want to see bad acting, we'll watch some Ardashians,
or we'll watch some shitty some shitty reality show on MTV, v H
one, whatever, we'll watch them mobwise, you know, we want to
see pro wrestling. We know what it is, we all accept what it
is. But I think that's the difference in pro wrestling. Beach has always
had it's had bad acting, but bad act I shouldn't say it's always had
bad actions. What wrestling had were wrestlers who were in who were who were
featured on television because when they spoke, there was a sense that they were
at their core who they were presenting themselves on television as it was absolutely you
know, lines written for them by somebody else, that kind of thing.
And it doesn't mean that there weren't people helping them with promos or help you
know, giving them tips, or that Greg Ganya, who was you know
was when he was on the live cast a couple of years back, talked
about you know that that the aw A was a great interview territory in late
the early eighties were which was the wrestling that I cut my teeth on or
first saw and first appreciated. And it's not that the wrestlers weren't coached,
it's not that they weren't helped, it's not that they weren't given things to
talk about. But the Greg Ghani and Virgania and that and Wally Carver and
that ilk they let the characters ultimately be who they were at their core.
And and I think wrestling is at its best when fans look at a restaurant
on television and go, I bet this guy was like this before he got
into wrestling, And I bet he be liked this when he's out of it,
and you know who you can say that about Steve Auston, you know,
and you can come up with other successful characters. But in the rock
too, they were who they on wrestling. They used to be that person
or they were that person before wrestling, and they'll still be that person after
wrestling, and that's where it works the best. Now, some people are
naturally themselves and they aren't superstars, so you just have to accept that.
But what you don't want to do is get in the way of those who
are superstars, and you got to look for them and let them be themselves.
Matt bj and I've gone back and forth a lot on this your final
thoughts on this topic, and I have one small subject to wrap up on.
Well, good man, I don't know. I mean, it's it's
no different than stand up comedy, whereas you can tell if the person doesn't
believe what they're saying. Yes, And because it's that is all entertainment is,
because it's you're not entertaining the person, You're making a connection, and
that's what people want to see, and that's what's lacking, you know,
they want you know, they believe in John Cena, you know, or
they believe in whoever they believe God, did I believe in Stone called Steve
Austin, Oh my gosh. And Vince McMahon for that matter. Vince McMahon's
on screen character was believable and entertaining, and it spoke to you in a
way that, Gosh, there's just isn't something consistently on Monday Night roars back
down that is speaking to me in the way that that stuff did you know?
I don't know. No, I think that's true when I watch stand
up comedians who I think wrote jokes to be funny so that they could fill
fifty minutes. It's not the same thing as a comedian who I think is
simply sharing in a way that I'm not capable of or talented enough, sharing
pend up observations of irony and frustration and silliness that they've just observed through genuinely
just living an interesting life or being around interesting situations. And wrestlers. I
believe I get most into wrestlers when I think at the core, what they
want to do is beat some people up and win some titles and make some
money, and they found a place to do it. I don't want to
watch wrestlers who know exactly where to stand on stage and don't dare defy the
authority. That at its core is not what makes me want to watch wrestlers.
I mean, it's at no point, at any point in his career
did Macho Man Randy Savage sat out the camera. Okay, yep, yep.
He would do interviews with his back completely to the lens. And you
know why because he was the mancho Man, Randy Sabbath and it made sense.
Yep. Every Sunday night, catch Wrestling Night in America on PW Torchdailycast
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in America every Sunday, tw torchdailycast dot Com. Yeah. When I watched
The Crusher when the Crush is off camera, all I felt is someone told
Crusher, who is being the Crusher off camera? Oh, take six steps
to the left, there's a camera there and be yourself. And he oh,
here's a camera or where was I? Oh? Yeah, I'm gonna
beat this guy up on Sunday, and I'm going to do this after the
matches. It's like you just got the feeling that if a camera wasn't there,
he'd have been telling three people off camera the same thing. You.
You want that sense that they're not just stepping into rehearse lines in order to
sell tickets or please their boss. Thank you, thank you? Yeah,
yeah, very good. Okay, my last MOLL topic. I feel we've
said the default. The only other alternative is and we've said multiple timeser isn't
an alternative, but TNA. When they're watched by over a million people every
week on a second tier cable network with a major cable network with a major
conglomerate. There's people who watch them, there's people listening to us who are
like, what about TNA. So my prediction for two four or my last
prediction to call I've been too long show, my last prediction for you guys
to make is will we be talking about TNA as more of a factor or
less of a factor at the end of twenty fourteen. And I'll start with
you, Matt. The only way we'll be talking about them being a factor
is if ownership changes hands, and I think that's probably very likely to happen
in the next twelve months, if not sooner, I don't know. I
don't know. It is the WWE is so clearly set in their ways that
the playing field is so wide open for somebody else to come in and just
present it just slightly different. Because let me tell you something, Johnny Carson
was the king, the king for thirty years until our Sineo Hall showed up
and said, you know what, I don't think I can get Johnny Carson's
audience, but I can get their kids. Yep. And that's all that
they have to do because it and it's true if you look at WWE's demographic.
It's not guys our age, it's guys over fifty and and older who
were consistently watching, you know, yeap. So there's a huge, huge
audience who whether they because all they know is WWE. They don't know how
much they would like pro wrestlers. I know how. I say that all
the time. Yep. There's two at least two generations of fans post Monday
Night War era especially who just have no idea what it's like when a pro
wrestling show it's about pro wrestlers fighting other pro wrestlers to win the most important
thing in the entire universe, which is a championship. If you build a
show around that, everything circulates around that, that is an amazing genre to
enjoy with because people love a fight. And when you when you, when
you're able to to dramatize in control, how exciting a fight is you you
and you put it in that context with these outlandish characters, and you bring
in these outlaws, not these corporate yes, yes sir, yes sir.
I will do what you say and I will watch what I say. But
you bring in these these crazy people that I watched when the aw A first
came on my television. There's generations of fans who don't even have a sample
of what that is unless they go back and really watch old stuff. And
it's a shame. And it's even a bigger shame at your point that TNA
is not in eleven years that hasn't crossed their mind, especially the last couple
of years, that we need that youthful attitude and that our Senio All example
is great. Yeah, we need a bit alternative. Yeah, instead of
trying to do what WWE is doing or did yeah, do something different,
do what no one else is doing. Yeap. That's why Eric Bischoff was
successful. He's sole ideas from Japan and Philadelphia and made it work. Yeah,
exactly. And you know what Vince wasn't doing. And that's what Eric
told me in the interview I did with some about five years ago. He
said, I sat down with a with a with a notepad and I drew
a line down the middle and I said, what does WWE do. I'm
not judging it, I'm just saying what do they do? What are there?
What are their philosophies? And I filled the left side and then I
wrote the opposite down on the right side, and I circled about a dozen
of those things that I thought would would would collectively make WW more successful,
and then I made Nitro And and I don't think that TNA. I mean,
I just don't think there's people in TNA who are thinking that way and
not. You know, I don't know how, I don't know how tied
Dave Legana and Matt Conway's hands are. I don't know if Dave Legana is
trying to live and live relived ECW, you know, experience which was so
unique to its time it cannot be reproduced because it broke so many conventions and
rules, and it just it won't work in twenty fourteen. U think that
booking philosophy without a lot of the other ingredients, I can't be present.
And you know, I just and Dixie Carter doesn't have any idea what we're
talking about right now, So you know, I mean, it's just I
mean, it's not her fault. I'm not saying she's She's no AWA is
a root beer right, yeah, she should she should be this she owns
a wrestling company. But anyway, now by now she should so PJ.
Same to you, T and A you're from now more or less relevant than
today, and I mean, got it sounds like a load of quad and
after our answers or what we just talked about that, look, you know,
I decided to dude, it took every every fiber in my being not
to just jump in what you guys were saying, and I agreed with your
better than much every single thing you guys said. Unfortunately, look, I'm
still an active wrestler. I just turned forty years old. I want to
work. I want to get a job. The odds of that are pretty
pretty small, you know, and the reason is there's nowhere to work.
So from my perspective, I think a company like T and A, Look,
they're not going to out WWE the WWE. They have these corny backstage
skits. Some may be better than others. Some, I mean, look,
I check out every correspondent on the Torch Pro Wrestling dot Net, Dave
Meltzer, I read it all. I observe the entire business and I look
for the you know what it is that might be the answer, but unfortunately
they don't got it. They have the talent, they have the skill,
they have the ability, but unfortunately, you know, I just don't know
what. They're unfortunately going to be way worse than they are right now in
twenty fourteen. I don't think they will be around. I don't think nobody
who's going to want to buy TNA. I'm not sure what they're looking to.
Tommy. Listen, listen. They're looking to Tommy Dreamer, who is
a great personal friend of mine, one of my best friends in this business,
to draw a house in the see New York for one of their hardcore
or whatever, their one night only pay per views old school pay per views
in Kokitsie. Because we drew a house for Tommy's house of hardcore, you
know, so they take you back on Dreamer to try to just draw a
house. Okay, So if they're drawing, if they're going to Tommy Dreamer
to help them in a certain market, it just shows how in the national
or global position, how pathetic it really is. Now. I'm not dising
Dreamer. I love and respect everything Tommy's doing. This isn't a knock.
I'm just saying, you're looking to guys on the indie level to use their
names in their ECW repertoire and what we've accomplished to bump up TNA because nobody
gives a clap about KNA. They've had eleven All it is, they've had
eleven or twelve years to establish their identity. And I think nobody cares.
Nobody would be at that. I had people, I had friends because I
only lived an hour from that arena where they held that event. I had
friends in the arena. Nobody would have cared if Dreamer didn't have a hand
in that. It's just another crap k and a show. That's what everybody
says. That's what all the fans. I believe you. I have a
pulse around my area, you know, so it's not like a big thing,
but whatever, I know people, and that's what they say. Nobody
would have given damn if Dreamer wasn't involved. And that's what I'm saying.
They're they're grasping in every little straw and it's they're better that. They could
be better than that, they could be so much better. That's that's,
you know, that's just the lost opportunity that is DNA. The last ten
twelve, Oh boy, if you and I have talked about this in detail
time, I mean with I mean the past two or three. I think
we've got two prior life casts, we've talked about both of the you know,
the lost opportunity and what it would take for K and H to you
know, get up there, and and they just, you know, we've
agreed that they just don't have the whatever it is that they're doing to get
there. And it's so frustrating because, believe me, there's nobody that wants
T and A to work more than the average wrestler or the average fan because
with with competition, there is better wrestling. You know, the Monday Night
Wars were epic because you know, w CW came up and they challenged Vince
the they punched him in the fucking they punched him in the mouth, and
you know, they they threatened his existence and Vince had to come out fighting.
So Vince went to whatever it takes to succeed, and you know,
and then you know, it's just that there's that back and forth mentality,
that spirited rivalry that created that you know, will created creativity, and I
think that's what it's going to take. And unfortunately that doesn't exist, and
you know, we're we're going to have to find it in some way,
that some kind of unique thing that that's going to spark this business, and
I just don't see it anytime soon. You know, we're always trying to
rehash old stuff, and unfortunately, you know, I don't think it's going
to be anything old. I think we're gonna have to, you know,
hopefully something new and we'll see. I mean, I don't know, or
go go back to the old, the old, the old format where wrestlers
bought wrestlers to win titles and everything else was to dress that up. We've
talked about it. We've talked about it a million times. Yeah, yeah,
I'm on or the concept right, yeah, yeah, where we are
we are getting to the point where that is a fresh idea. I know.
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TV and pay perview written reports. I think that is I know, big
things, I went on. I mean, I felt bad when I was
transcribing this week the newsletter because I had Steve Boston on my show and I'm
typing out my question, my questions longer than his answer. I'm like,
I got Steve Boston on the show. I can talk about this anytime,
let me ask quick. But I went on this. I went on that
rant that the next big thing is going to be simply promoting the show that's
about wrestlers fighting wrestlers for a title like that, that we're so far from
it now that that actually is a new thing, and it's what works in
every other era, in every successful territory. That's what made it draw is
wanting to see a wanting to see somebody you liked beat up somebody you didn't
in order to win a title that meant more than the super Bowl. And
in the universe you create on your TV show, if you create that.
Steve Aouston's response, that was great, which is fans will believe what you
tell them, and I think promoters have black spiders. Fans will suspend their
disbelief and watch and buy into it. If you look like you're buying into
it too, they want to. They don't want no, I'm randy,
But like when John Cena goes out there says, I hope we entertained you.
I hope you've been entertained. My job is to entertain you. Screw
that. No, you're jobs to fight for Tyler. It's a privilege for
us to sit and watch you. But I don't want to think you want
to entertain me. I want to think that it's my privilege to spend one
hundred dollar to watch you fight for something that matters, not pander to me
and thank me for doing it. So anyway, thank you right now,
Waite. I could not have articulated it better than you just did. It's
so true. Not fish and then all the other stuff, all the other
stuff, and there are with all the fun there's fun skits, there's fun
promos, there's funny color, there's Bobby Heenen doing comedy. That's that's where
the entertainment comes in. You know, that's where the other app comes in.
Well, then we can entertain. But I know in PG, I
agree with you on everything, but I want to I always try to make
sure that we don't create a separate definition. And I know it's the vernacular
that there's wrestling and there's entertainment entertainment. Because I think language, use of
words is really important. We need to meld those again so that we realized
the wrestling is the entertainment. That's what makes this genre work. It's not
there's their entertainment and then the wrestling. If we use that language, it
starts to become accepted. Wrestling is the entertainment. Everything else and there's a
different term for it adds to the core entertainment the wrestling, but it's not
entertainment and wrestling. I like that is something so many people say now and
I think we need to get away from it because I think it does meld
in our brains that that's right. The wrestling isn't entertaining. It's a necessary
evil, so we can get back to the entertainment. I see, Yeah,
you're right, Yeah, absolutely right, Cool Matt any closing words on
more than I'll this is my final thought. On more than one occasion when
I was in the writer's room, I was noted as saying I think wrestling
is very entertaining, and I'll leave it at that. That's awesome. I
know what I know. I want to have you. I want to have
you had on a progress like one on one. God, you know,
just it's so amazing though, just being in there, you know that insight
of what really goes on? You know, I mean does it? And
that's to throw the interview. I'm not trying to control the interview, but
just how god, I should I say? This? Does it for fans?
Does it? You know? Is there any semblance of real wrestling or
anything that we care about as purest or at least I'm a purist that still
stands in being that you were there pretty recent, you know, I mean,
is there or is it just pure television? You know what I mean?
Not at all? The window kind of I know, because let me
tell you, I understand pro wrestling so much better than I ever did because
of the education I got within those walls. It is still a wrestling organization
and there are still people, and like, you know, I would be
very ignorant and be like, well, why don't we do this? And
then somebody would be like, well because of this, this, this,
this and this, and then I'm like oh, and I like, really,
I didn't learn how to be a TV I said this to wage last
time. I didn't learn how to be a TV writer. I learned how
to be a wrestling booker. And which is strange because when you watch the
show, you don't think that the priority is unrestling anymore, but it still
is. You're still surrounded by brilliant minds, the guys that understand the business.
And even like the other writers, you know, the guys that have
been there and understand it and have survived, it's because they understand the business.
But it's also ultimately you have to understand Vince. And that's right,
that's and that's right different because it's not the weird hyebridge, you know.
It's it's like, it's no different than reading a book by Larry Manisk He's
going to explain for wrestling to you, and he understands it very well.
But then the X factor is Sam Mushneck. It's like he knew how to
please Sam, like whereas like I could write something or book something that I
know would please a wrestling stam, but then you also have to please Vince
because he's the guy in charge. I'm sure Kape Sipolski would say the same
thing, like he learned for a wrestling but he also learned how to please
Paul Hayman. You know, sure, sure, sure? Is it is
it? Really? What it all comes down to is there's one guy in
charge and it's up to him, and that's what you're left. Amen.
No, you're you're absolutely right. That's that's double point. You're right,
Amen, you're right. Thank you guys, time to wade. It's a
good discussion. I hope the thank you Yeah, Matt, PJ and uh
and Andrew too. He's already posted on Twitter that he is giving a thumbs
up in a big thanks or endorsing the conversation. So thanks to Andrew Goldstein.
Matt McCarthy, Matt, when is when is uh now the name of
the show? Pete Home Show? When is that going to be? On
CBS again, I don't we Well, we got picked up and we're gonna
be coming back. I don't know what our start date is for season two,
but we will be back, and we're on Monday's Monday to Thursday,
four nights a week at midnight, where we follow Conan four by the week.
But not yet. If people go looking, they're going to see something
else. That's the second season starts in a month or two roughly, probably
maybe even sooner. But yeah, oh cool, awesome, excellent, But
we'll be coming back. And I on my podcast, we Watch Wrestling is
every Wednesday at three sixteen am. What's the story behind that? Well,
I was like, well it's got to be if we're going to drop out
a time, that's not four twenty, it's got to be three sixteen.
But they were like, well it needs to be in the morning, and
I was like, well, three sixteen happens in the morning. If that
works, that works excellent. Peach, thanks a lot. Any any fun
plugs where people real quick just you know, just watch up for the third
season of fort using one on one on YouTube. Just go to the search
engine and follow me at pj Plato on Twitter and as always Wade, Matt,
it is a pleasure to talk to you and Wade as always, you
know, highly regarded that you guys are the best. Wait. I love
being a part of the Torch All Star panel, and you know, it
was a real pleasure. I had a great conversation. I really enjoyed myself
tonight. I bought up frustration out tonight. Yeah, so go take some
deep breaths, maybe take a warm bath, speech read a little uh you
know, read read a night's there you get. Yeah, all right,
Well maybe we'll get to the same group back together down the line and compare
notes on whether we're more or less frustrated. Yeah, that's cool. Thank
you much. I really appreciate it. Happy New Year, guys. Absolutely
take care of Thank you if you remember it's for making it possible for us
to do this. Invite you to email the show with feedback or questions or
comments. That email address is Wade Keller Podcast at petewtorch dot com. That's
Wadekeller Podcast at PW torch dot com. Also welcome your feedback on Twitter.
You can follow us on Twitter at PW Torch and follow me at the Wade
Keller that's at PW Torch and at the Wade Keller. Searching for more great
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