WEBVTT 1 00:00:15.519 --> 00:00:20.960 From Powerline blog dot com and produced by Ricochet dot Com. This is the 2 00:00:21.039 --> 00:00:37.960 Powerline Show with your host Steve Hayward. If anyone ever asked me to name 3 00:00:38.000 --> 00:00:43.039 the ten best journalists in America today, spots numbers one through five on my 4 00:00:43.119 --> 00:00:47.840 list are the same person, Heather McDonald. Heather is always must reading when 5 00:00:47.840 --> 00:00:52.600 she appears frequently in City Journal and other outlets, writing about a wide range 6 00:00:52.600 --> 00:00:58.079 of current social problems. She's always fearless and uncompromising and telling the truth in 7 00:00:58.200 --> 00:01:03.000 reporting uncomfortable facts and challenging the conventional wisdom. She caught early the forces leading 8 00:01:03.079 --> 00:01:07.400 to the defund the police movement in her book almost ten years ago, The 9 00:01:07.400 --> 00:01:11.959 War on Cops. She also caught early the perversities of the diversity, equity 10 00:01:11.959 --> 00:01:15.760 and inclusion industrial complex you might call it, that is now rampaging through American 11 00:01:15.840 --> 00:01:19.760 universities and other institutions. And now she's out with a brand new book, 12 00:01:21.400 --> 00:01:26.680 When Race Trump's Merit, How the pursuit of equity sacrifices excellence, destroys beauty, 13 00:01:26.920 --> 00:01:30.719 and threatens lives. As I mentioned the Heather at the beginning of our 14 00:01:30.760 --> 00:01:36.200 conversation here, I'm sometimes scared to pick up her newest books because they're so 15 00:01:36.280 --> 00:01:40.719 prescient about the bad news and things that are coming our way. Let's turn 16 00:01:40.760 --> 00:01:47.760 to that conversation right after these brief messages from our sponsors. Well, Hi, 17 00:01:47.840 --> 00:01:49.959 Heather, how are you? You have done it again with your new 18 00:01:51.000 --> 00:01:53.560 book. And I have to say that I'm kind of scared to get your 19 00:01:53.560 --> 00:01:57.879 new books. And here's why. I remember when you wrote the War on 20 00:01:57.959 --> 00:02:00.920 Cops here almost ten years ago, and then things got immediately worse. You 21 00:02:00.920 --> 00:02:05.920 know, within a few years we had defund the police and total disarray of 22 00:02:05.959 --> 00:02:08.639 policing in the America right now. Then you followed it up with the diversity 23 00:02:08.719 --> 00:02:14.159 delusion, and immediately that whole business ratted it up to a whole new level 24 00:02:14.199 --> 00:02:17.400 of insanity. And now you're out with when Race Trump's Merit, And like 25 00:02:17.439 --> 00:02:20.960 I say, I'm almost afraid to open it because I'm afraid things are going 26 00:02:21.039 --> 00:02:23.400 to get worse. But I mean, I'm being a little facetious, but 27 00:02:23.439 --> 00:02:30.080 not entirely. Heather. You have once again brought your ferocity and diligent journalistic 28 00:02:30.120 --> 00:02:36.240 skills to exposing something that is really quite depressing. But let's start to say, 29 00:02:36.400 --> 00:02:38.159 well, I can I can? I have to choose between either being 30 00:02:38.240 --> 00:02:43.560 pressent or being totally ineffective, and I don't know which one. You know, 31 00:02:44.400 --> 00:02:46.240 Well, well we'll come to all that. I mean, there's a 32 00:02:46.240 --> 00:02:52.960 great value always in telling the truth, but without effect, well it could 33 00:02:53.039 --> 00:02:54.680 be worse. Let's just say, let's imagine it would have been worse if 34 00:02:54.680 --> 00:02:59.800 I hadn't if I hadn't spoken out. So that's that's some solace. Maybe. 35 00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:02.639 Well, I think there's always great value and have when some having someone 36 00:03:02.800 --> 00:03:07.360 organized the truth for all the people out there who suspect in their bones and 37 00:03:07.360 --> 00:03:10.400 then their instincts that something's wrong. So that's why it's a useful public service, 38 00:03:10.479 --> 00:03:15.639 even if the powers that be resist listening to what and acting on it. 39 00:03:15.680 --> 00:03:17.439 But we're gonna come to that at the end about what remedies should be 40 00:03:17.479 --> 00:03:21.960 thought about. So where are we here? I mean, I guess I 41 00:03:22.000 --> 00:03:25.599 should ask you hard to do. But you know, when race Trump's merit 42 00:03:25.680 --> 00:03:29.560 I guess I'll put this way. I've been picking up for several years now, 43 00:03:29.759 --> 00:03:35.439 the elite opinion turning on meritocracy. Whole stream of books, you know, 44 00:03:35.599 --> 00:03:38.800 titles like you've probably seen some the meritocracy trap, the meritocracy myth, 45 00:03:39.639 --> 00:03:44.479 the tyranny of meritocracy. That was the late Lonnie Winier's book about all this, 46 00:03:44.639 --> 00:03:50.960 and it was pretty clear that the subtext was the problem of racial groups, 47 00:03:51.039 --> 00:03:54.800 especially blacks, falling behind, and we need to dismantle meritocracy, a 48 00:03:54.919 --> 00:03:59.680 creation originally of liberalism, if we're going to remedy this. So that's sort 49 00:03:59.680 --> 00:04:01.479 of my own opening bid, and go ahead and give me a couple of 50 00:04:01.479 --> 00:04:05.479 your opening bids. Yes, it's absolutely it's all about race. You can 51 00:04:05.520 --> 00:04:12.319 have diversity or you can have meritocracy. You cannot have both. And the 52 00:04:12.360 --> 00:04:18.160 only reason that we're turning on meritocracy in this country is because meritocratic standards have 53 00:04:18.279 --> 00:04:25.839 a disparate impact on blacks. They Blacks do poorer at tests of academic skills, 54 00:04:25.839 --> 00:04:30.439 not because those tests are racist, they are not, they're objective, 55 00:04:30.519 --> 00:04:35.279 they're color blind, they're constitutional. But because blacks academic skills are much lower, 56 00:04:35.800 --> 00:04:41.920 and you know that's a separate issue, then that one should deal with 57 00:04:41.959 --> 00:04:45.879 that, But one should not deal with that by tearing down maritocratic standards. 58 00:04:45.920 --> 00:04:50.279 But if these standards did not have a disparate impact on blacks, we would 59 00:04:50.279 --> 00:04:55.879 not be tearing them down. We'd be perfectly happy to live with a meritocratic 60 00:04:56.120 --> 00:05:02.600 society, and we would be content that people, some people succeed at certain 61 00:05:03.120 --> 00:05:10.560 areas of life more than others through dint of effort and innate talent. When 62 00:05:10.600 --> 00:05:15.720 I look around at our world today, Stephen, I see the myth of 63 00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:25.040 racism and the problem of ongoing racial disparities as driving almost everything that I find 64 00:05:25.079 --> 00:05:30.160 troubling. Yeah, so now you pick up on I guess what an Aristotelian 65 00:05:30.199 --> 00:05:33.160 would call the proximate cause, or in modern terms, the tipping point of 66 00:05:33.160 --> 00:05:38.319 this, which was the formalized doctrine of disparate impact, going back to the 67 00:05:38.360 --> 00:05:42.759 famous Duke Power case of what the nineteen seventies, and so now, I 68 00:05:42.759 --> 00:05:45.959 mean the popular version of this now, which you know well, is Abrahm 69 00:05:46.040 --> 00:05:50.839 Kendy saying that any disparity between the races is proof of race caused by racism, 70 00:05:50.839 --> 00:05:56.439 and is proof of racism. But that disparate impact doctrine has really settled 71 00:05:56.480 --> 00:06:01.720 in like a squatter, right, and it's driving everything exactly. It's no 72 00:06:01.879 --> 00:06:06.519 longer a legal doctrine. It's simply a cultural construct. All you need to 73 00:06:06.560 --> 00:06:13.800 do now to take down any individual or any institution is to label that institution 74 00:06:13.879 --> 00:06:15.399 or that individual white. I mean, you can see the New York Times 75 00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:20.560 doing this. It's a very handy journalistic tool. You just slap white in 76 00:06:20.600 --> 00:06:25.040 front of an official's name and oh my god, he's evil, or you 77 00:06:25.120 --> 00:06:30.399 say to it that an institution is majority white, and that raises a very 78 00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:34.240 deep cloud of suspicion and disparate impact. As you say, began as a 79 00:06:34.279 --> 00:06:40.639 court case. It was a way of expanding the reach of civil rights statutes. 80 00:06:40.720 --> 00:06:47.600 They originally the sixty four sixty five Civil Rights Acts only penalized intentional discrimination. 81 00:06:47.759 --> 00:06:54.040 So an employer who was intentionally saying I don't want to hire qualified blacks 82 00:06:54.439 --> 00:07:00.720 as police officers or as tech workers, and had a test for employment, 83 00:07:01.319 --> 00:07:06.240 he would run a foul of civil rights statutes and would be guilty of discrimination. 84 00:07:08.399 --> 00:07:12.720 But by the seventies there was less and less of that type of discrimination 85 00:07:12.800 --> 00:07:18.040 going on, and so to keep the whole civil rights enterprise going, you 86 00:07:18.199 --> 00:07:25.199 now had the idea that an employer could be completely color blind, non discriminatory, 87 00:07:25.279 --> 00:07:31.959 have no racial animus. But if his criteria for employment negatively impacted blacks, 88 00:07:32.040 --> 00:07:36.399 if he had a test, say for a firefighter, that said, 89 00:07:36.439 --> 00:07:43.040 well, we want you to be able to read chemical instructions for using your 90 00:07:43.079 --> 00:07:48.600 firefighting chemicals. And blacks failed that reading test at a higher rate than whites, 91 00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:53.800 even though the test was color blind and was not intended to discriminate. 92 00:07:54.079 --> 00:07:57.319 You'd have to throw off the test, which is absurd. And we've seen 93 00:07:57.360 --> 00:08:01.600 this go on for decades. We've had decades now of lawsuits against firefighting exams, 94 00:08:01.639 --> 00:08:07.240 police exams on the simple ground that blacks don't do as well. So 95 00:08:07.240 --> 00:08:09.800 we throw out the tests, we open the floodgates, we bring in less 96 00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:16.399 qualified individuals. That has a huge negative effect. But now, and and 97 00:08:16.439 --> 00:08:20.399 so you had the disparate impact. This was the Supreme Court case, as 98 00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:26.519 you say, affirming this idea. It's spread into federal regulations, it's spread 99 00:08:26.519 --> 00:08:31.279 into statutes. But now it's simply the way we observe the world. And 100 00:08:31.759 --> 00:08:35.080 so all it takes is to say that, well, blacks do less well 101 00:08:35.159 --> 00:08:39.960 on the Medical College Admissions test. You don't have to bring a lawsuit. 102 00:08:39.600 --> 00:08:43.879 You just say, well, if they do less well on the MCATs, 103 00:08:43.759 --> 00:08:48.720 they have the MCATs have a disparate impact on blacks. Let's get rid of 104 00:08:48.759 --> 00:08:52.720 the MCATs. Yeah, yeah, I mean it now reverses the presumption. 105 00:08:52.759 --> 00:08:54.440 I mean it used to be the burden of proof is on the government to 106 00:08:54.559 --> 00:09:00.799 prove that you'd intentionally discriminate it. Now I mean, this is unfolded. 107 00:09:01.559 --> 00:09:03.240 It's not the central focus of your book. But the way this works now 108 00:09:03.360 --> 00:09:09.159 is as if there's a statistical difference between the composition of your workforce and the 109 00:09:09.200 --> 00:09:13.240 local demographics of the community, you just presume to be discriminating, and now 110 00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:16.600 you have to prove your innocence. You have to prove a negative right. 111 00:09:16.679 --> 00:09:18.639 And it's gotten very perverse. But now it's spread, and this is the 112 00:09:18.679 --> 00:09:24.159 interesting part of your book, is it's spread into the cultural world. And 113 00:09:24.279 --> 00:09:28.519 here I want to connect was most interesting about the way head McDonald is looking 114 00:09:28.519 --> 00:09:31.679 at this problem and the way other people have a lot of people talked about 115 00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:37.279 woke capitalism they call it, and big business gave billions of dollars to Black 116 00:09:37.320 --> 00:09:41.600 Lives Matter, and they're bending over backwards for diversity and so forth. The 117 00:09:41.679 --> 00:09:45.200 heart of your book is the effect this is having on culture, on the 118 00:09:45.320 --> 00:09:50.679 arts. And I have a couple of theories on this, one the general 119 00:09:50.879 --> 00:09:54.320 and then one specific to you. My general one is that the theoretical problem 120 00:09:54.399 --> 00:10:00.000 here beyond disparate impact, or at the heart of it is runaway egalitarianism, 121 00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:03.360 equal opportunity. Equality is not sufficient. We have to have equity, which 122 00:10:03.399 --> 00:10:09.600 means equal results. But the other thing is and here because I know that 123 00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:13.399 if we actually lived in a non insane world, Heather McDonald, you would 124 00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:18.639 be a literary critic or a cultural critic, and we'd beat you alongside Lionel 125 00:10:18.639 --> 00:10:22.440 Trilling and Northward Fry. And the reason I say that is is that one 126 00:10:22.519 --> 00:10:26.679 part of radical ideology I've always thought, and I think you can actually find 127 00:10:26.679 --> 00:10:31.519 this and obscure writings of Marx if you go far enough, is the idea 128 00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:37.039 that society can be organized without tragic outcomes. In fact, Marxism actually contemplates 129 00:10:37.039 --> 00:10:43.120 here and there that death itself could be conquered in the Marxist utopia, and 130 00:10:43.639 --> 00:10:46.000 an awful lot of literature i've heard you talk about it, especially the Greek 131 00:10:46.039 --> 00:10:50.480 classics, are all about the fact that human life is essentially tragic. Of 132 00:10:50.480 --> 00:10:54.559 course, treating tragedy is an individual thing. Once you start treating people as 133 00:10:56.159 --> 00:11:00.279 members of groups, then the whole element of a tragic sense of life that 134 00:11:00.360 --> 00:11:05.240 ends with all of us dying disappears and it's completely warping our sensibilities. Now 135 00:11:05.240 --> 00:11:07.840 that's a whole mouthful, but I know that you're equal to it because of 136 00:11:07.879 --> 00:11:13.159 your fine tune sensibilities about culture. Well, weird a question, Heather, 137 00:11:13.240 --> 00:11:16.759 I said, I want to try some questions you don't usually get. But 138 00:11:16.200 --> 00:11:20.919 anyway, No, I think it's a great question, and I'm trying to 139 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:26.879 think if I agree with it, because I would say that the left's narrative 140 00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:31.879 about American history, I mean, maybe it points to some kind of utopian 141 00:11:33.080 --> 00:11:37.159 end, but I would say it is in one sense far darker and far 142 00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:43.039 more tragic than the traditional American history because it is all about oppression. I've 143 00:11:43.039 --> 00:11:50.279 actually been on a big reading project of black history, sixteen nineteen project. 144 00:11:50.279 --> 00:11:54.440 Then for fun, I decided to go to Howard Zinn's People History of America, 145 00:11:54.480 --> 00:11:56.360 which I never read before, which is quite bracing. I enjoyed it 146 00:11:56.440 --> 00:12:01.919 far far more than the sixteen nineteen project because it wasn't so damn narcissistic. 147 00:12:01.960 --> 00:12:05.559 I mean, at some point there's there's some things I agree with the sixteen 148 00:12:05.600 --> 00:12:09.399 nineteen project, and that I do think that the American traditional conservative American narrative 149 00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:15.720 is a bit of a whitewash. I am struggling at this point, and 150 00:12:15.799 --> 00:12:24.399 I have not resolved this of how to how to integrate America's very very long, 151 00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:31.720 gratuitous cruelty and nastiness to blacks with the story we tell about ourselves. 152 00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:37.320 And I don't know whether every statement we make about American history needs a footnote 153 00:12:37.720 --> 00:12:41.480 to say, but see blacks, you know, as a counterexample. So 154 00:12:41.480 --> 00:12:48.039 so, but the sixteen nineteen project kind of freed me a little bit of 155 00:12:48.080 --> 00:12:52.879 my torment because it became so narcissistic. You know, it is not the 156 00:12:52.960 --> 00:12:56.679 case that everything is about black oppression. That's what the sixteen ninety project. 157 00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:03.279 Howard sin was much more interesting, much more interesting. I liked the you 158 00:13:03.320 --> 00:13:07.960 know, the primary sources and history from the bottom up. And he's obviously 159 00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:16.000 an outright communist. He hates every aspect of success, of capitalism, of 160 00:13:16.039 --> 00:13:20.120 economic exchange, of freedom of private property. But it's sort of it's much 161 00:13:20.159 --> 00:13:24.519 more honest. And Marx's categories are more interesting than identity ones. But in 162 00:13:24.559 --> 00:13:33.639 any case, I would say that the left narrative of constant oppression is pretty 163 00:13:33.720 --> 00:13:39.559 dark as well. And so you know, you can do things by group, 164 00:13:39.720 --> 00:13:43.360 and that doesn't mean you don't have a tragic sense of life. And 165 00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:50.960 I also I've never quite understood the conservatives trying to discredit the idea of progress, 166 00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:58.279 because certainly we do believe in progress, at least of the technological, 167 00:13:58.320 --> 00:14:03.639 scientific, and material sort. So um, so that that distinction is not 168 00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:07.480 quite clear. But but as far as like the arts necessarily breeding a tragic 169 00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:15.360 understanding of life, um, yes, I guess that's not necessarily. What 170 00:14:15.480 --> 00:14:20.159 I get from the arts. What I get from literature and from music is 171 00:14:20.440 --> 00:14:31.720 insight into human feeling and experience and history, human types, human struggles that 172 00:14:31.799 --> 00:14:37.720 I would never have access to on my own. And whether the bottom line 173 00:14:37.720 --> 00:14:43.600 of all of that is tragic or simply revelatory, I'm not quite sure. 174 00:14:43.639 --> 00:14:48.600 But there's certainly a lot of joy and sublimity in the arts, but but 175 00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:54.720 also a lot of humor and irony and wit yea, So so I'm I'm 176 00:14:54.759 --> 00:15:01.799 not sure about that. Which way what leads us to a tragic understanding of 177 00:15:01.879 --> 00:15:07.240 humanity? And what is a defiance of that? So why do you think 178 00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:13.559 that progressives reject a tragic view of life? Maybe it's just that we are 179 00:15:13.639 --> 00:15:18.200 tragic right now, or we are maybe you're maybe you would differ between tragedy 180 00:15:18.759 --> 00:15:24.279 and oppression, that that may be different. I don't know, yeah, 181 00:15:24.360 --> 00:15:28.679 I mean, I didn't want to cross you up with a big roundhouse a 182 00:15:28.759 --> 00:15:31.799 crazy question. I don't think it through two. I mean, I guess 183 00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:37.960 what I think is that if you are oriented towards suffering situations. I think 184 00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:43.480 of Kenneth Minogue's famous definition and liberal mind of the Liberals are oriented towards suffering 185 00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:48.480 situations, and they want to alleviate suffering, and they get carried away with 186 00:15:48.519 --> 00:15:54.720 the idea that progress and political power and redistribution can relieve all suffering situations. 187 00:15:54.759 --> 00:15:58.240 And at some point there, you know, I think there's much to be 188 00:15:58.279 --> 00:16:02.200 said for the reform liberal tradition. Confidence is not one of them. That's 189 00:16:02.240 --> 00:16:06.200 an all the long story. Um, let's let's press on a little bit 190 00:16:06.399 --> 00:16:07.799 a tangent of this. Though. I agree with you about Zin by the 191 00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:15.279 way, that that the categorical and wholesale rejection of him by conservatives was a 192 00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:18.360 mistake. By the way, someone else who thinks that is Bill McClay, 193 00:16:18.720 --> 00:16:22.600 the historian. Really yeah. I had a long talk of Bill about that, 194 00:16:22.679 --> 00:16:23.840 and he says, yeah, there's there's more to. I mean, 195 00:16:25.120 --> 00:16:29.039 you can think you think Zinn's conclusion and orientation is defective, which I think 196 00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:32.360 it is, and he makes some factual mistakes, but it's readable. There's 197 00:16:32.360 --> 00:16:34.559 a reason that thing caught on the way it did. It's very readable, 198 00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:41.440 engaging history. And but let me let me sharp at I know you're familiar 199 00:16:41.440 --> 00:16:45.559 with the passage from du Boys where he says, what I read Shakespeare and 200 00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:48.600 I winced not. Yeah, I'm not sure you know a modern day du 201 00:16:48.639 --> 00:16:53.200 Boys can say that today because we're now categorically rejecting that great tradition. That 202 00:16:53.279 --> 00:16:57.480 that was the larger context of that question. I was asking you, Well, 203 00:16:57.519 --> 00:17:02.720 he says Shakespeare wins is not you know he doesn't Boys. Yeah. 204 00:17:02.759 --> 00:17:07.880 Yeah, it's that these great authors aureally as an Aristotle and Shakespeare and Dumat 205 00:17:07.960 --> 00:17:12.759 and Balzac do not WinCE at him, that he is able to enter the 206 00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:19.440 pantheon of human thinking without the color line, without prejudice, and so it's 207 00:17:19.480 --> 00:17:25.880 a it's a mutual engagement. But but he you know, he does not 208 00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:30.559 feel rejected by these greats. But yes, absolutely, I mean that Dubois 209 00:17:30.680 --> 00:17:37.240 quote which brings tears to my eyes every time because it's spoken from a world 210 00:17:37.400 --> 00:17:45.480 that was still keeping people like Duboys out, even as tragically. It's like, 211 00:17:45.839 --> 00:17:51.880 you know, something Shakespearean with the cross paths, whether Romeo and Juliet 212 00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:57.759 or a Tello, these ironic moments where the messenger has not seen. You 213 00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:02.359 know, you look at the pictures of the nineteen forties and fifties and you 214 00:18:02.440 --> 00:18:08.480 see La Fitzgerald and Duke Ellington and Nat King Cole and Louis Armstrong dressed to 215 00:18:08.519 --> 00:18:15.640 the nines, you know, with hats on and suits and abiding by bourgeois 216 00:18:15.720 --> 00:18:19.400 values at a time when America was not letting them in by and large, 217 00:18:19.440 --> 00:18:25.279 you know, the individuals, yes, but but still the bulk of society 218 00:18:25.400 --> 00:18:32.200 was still involved in gratuitous putdowns. Now it's the opposite, it is the 219 00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:34.400 it is the opposite. We have to be able to say that. I 220 00:18:34.440 --> 00:18:38.680 can say both. I can say we were white supremacists. And now the 221 00:18:38.759 --> 00:18:42.599 reality is black privilege today, it is not white privilege. So now we're 222 00:18:42.640 --> 00:18:52.279 here with open arms when every single institution is bending itself into knots, twisting 223 00:18:52.279 --> 00:18:56.240 itself into knots to hire and promote as many blacks as possible, And then 224 00:18:56.240 --> 00:19:00.880 you have this oppositional culture in the black community. That means that they're not 225 00:19:00.920 --> 00:19:04.920 prepared to take advantage of those opportunities on equal terms. They only get in 226 00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:11.440 through lowered standards. So it's it's a terrible you know, ships crossing in 227 00:19:11.480 --> 00:19:15.720 the night. So but in any case that that quote breaks my heart, 228 00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:25.559 it brings tears to my eyes, and yet it is not described our understanding 229 00:19:25.640 --> 00:19:32.359 of the Classics for decades. Now. This is what just infuriates me about 230 00:19:32.440 --> 00:19:37.559 the Academy, that these literature professors, art history professors, music professors, 231 00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:45.440 who all we ask of them is that every fall they say to students, 232 00:19:45.079 --> 00:19:51.559 here is greatness. Here is where you will learn things that you would otherwise 233 00:19:51.880 --> 00:19:56.240 never know in your narrow, petty lives. You will you will be able 234 00:19:56.279 --> 00:20:04.880 to bask in language of exquisite richness, profundity, precision, clarity you would 235 00:20:04.920 --> 00:20:08.680 never otherwise get it. Come and take my classes instead, they're saying, 236 00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:14.559 we need trigger warnings. You know, the professors are agreeing to trigger warnings. 237 00:20:14.599 --> 00:20:18.640 These are works which are toxic. If you're of the wrong race and 238 00:20:18.759 --> 00:20:26.880 sex, you should read only through the lens of anger and resentment. And 239 00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:33.799 so nobody really the appetite for the Classics and the rhetoric around them is all 240 00:20:33.880 --> 00:20:41.240 about anti racism and anti misogyny, and it is an absolute betrayal and we 241 00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:48.640 should fire every single humanities professor who is not willing to sign a statement that 242 00:20:48.759 --> 00:20:53.519 says I believe in my tradition. It is a tradition of beauty, accomplishment, 243 00:20:53.559 --> 00:21:00.000 and greatness. And I will do everything I can to teach students why 244 00:21:00.039 --> 00:21:03.920 they should be down on their knees in gratitude before these works. Yeah, 245 00:21:03.240 --> 00:21:07.839 let me try. It's not exactly a parallel to the voice. But you're 246 00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:14.759 write in your book about Lynn Manuel Miranda Groveling after he received criticism for his 247 00:21:14.839 --> 00:21:18.559 movie In the Heights about the Hispanic neighborhood in New York because he didn't have 248 00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:25.440 the right shades of color of the Hispanic cast. And I'm you know you 249 00:21:25.519 --> 00:21:30.119 mentioned in Passing of Course that he littlemo brand of Course burst on the scene 250 00:21:30.119 --> 00:21:33.799 with Hamilton, where he cast mostly black actors playing the founding fathers, And 251 00:21:34.519 --> 00:21:37.599 I know it did attract some criticism at the time when it came out, 252 00:21:37.640 --> 00:21:41.039 But I'm wondering, now, let's see what you think, would he could 253 00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:45.880 he make Hamilton today? And would he make it today? I'm actually thinking 254 00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:52.200 that that play now could not be done. Why because it seems to me 255 00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:57.880 it's still an okay category of blacks playing whites. What what what's the next 256 00:21:57.920 --> 00:22:03.079 step between after black's playing whites not doing whites at all? You mean we 257 00:22:03.079 --> 00:22:07.920 shouldn't even have any representation of the Founding Fathers. Yeah, I'm not so 258 00:22:07.960 --> 00:22:11.000 service that. I mean the way I interpreted it was at the time was 259 00:22:11.160 --> 00:22:17.039 this is showing that why some conservatives like to play this is showing that the 260 00:22:17.359 --> 00:22:22.799 teaching and intention of the Founding uh was intended to be universal, accessible to 261 00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:26.880 anyone, right the way Lincoln thought about it later on. Right, and 262 00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:30.240 and now if you think about the lens of the sixteen nineteen project, which 263 00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:33.200 is you a moment ago or more generally talked about, you know, anger 264 00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:37.359 and resentment or now the coin of the realm, you wouldn't want a black 265 00:22:37.480 --> 00:22:44.720 cast reflecting favorably on Hamilton or any of the other Founders, Right, I 266 00:22:44.759 --> 00:22:47.720 mean, that's that's what I'm thinking about that. I say, yes, 267 00:22:47.799 --> 00:22:51.000 okay, that I agree with. I was taking it because because what what 268 00:22:51.319 --> 00:22:57.519 tripped Lynn went Miranda up with the in the Heights was the exquisite boundaries and 269 00:22:57.759 --> 00:23:03.759 barbed wire that are being put around works based on skin color and ethnicity. 270 00:23:03.799 --> 00:23:07.039 I mean, it's just it's the absolute crushing of human imagination and the ability 271 00:23:07.119 --> 00:23:14.039 to to for an actor to put himself into a radically different time and character. 272 00:23:14.319 --> 00:23:17.279 So, but yes, on from that extent. Now, I've never 273 00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:21.759 seen Hamilton's so I you know, I'm I'm from Afar, and I know 274 00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:25.119 I have a few friends that couldn't stand it because of the rap music, 275 00:23:25.119 --> 00:23:29.119 and I suspect I probably would have been in that camp. But in any 276 00:23:29.119 --> 00:23:33.720 case, but but to the extent that it is actually a celebration of the 277 00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:38.079 Founding, I think you're absolutely right. You know, it would it would 278 00:23:38.119 --> 00:23:44.240 have to be rewritten as the Founding with slavery, you know, it would 279 00:23:44.240 --> 00:23:48.960 be sixteen nineteen as the Founding and h something that we never got rid of. 280 00:23:49.359 --> 00:23:53.000 Yeah. Actually I think it's you know, you can now watch it 281 00:23:53.039 --> 00:23:56.519 streaming somewhere. I think it's pretty good. I didn't think the it's not 282 00:23:56.640 --> 00:24:03.079 conventional rap. It's actually Rick give me away. It's it's much more conventionally 283 00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:07.079 musical than when you think of the term rap, but sort of a blend. 284 00:24:07.240 --> 00:24:14.119 Anyway, we're thinking and I think one thing you mentioned an Togo humanities 285 00:24:14.119 --> 00:24:18.680 professors who came into all this don't stand up for their disciplines for whatever reasons. 286 00:24:21.200 --> 00:24:22.279 You know, I've seen a lot of surveys I think you've probably seen 287 00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:26.559 them too, that show that well, I'll put it this way, very 288 00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:30.680 bluntly, part of the problem here is white liberals. I see all these 289 00:24:30.680 --> 00:24:36.160 surveys that's showing that black opinion. However, you want to test the questions 290 00:24:36.440 --> 00:24:40.720 is this isn't the right category, but is not as far to the left 291 00:24:40.799 --> 00:24:44.440 as white liberals are. In other words, the problem is Marin County and 292 00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:48.839 you know Westchester, and then in fact, if you went by I think 293 00:24:48.880 --> 00:24:52.839 maybe even majority of what blacks think, they would be skeptical of a lot 294 00:24:52.839 --> 00:24:55.279 of what's happening. Do you pick up any of that? I know you 295 00:24:55.319 --> 00:24:56.920 go to a lot of community meetings and stuff and get out and do shoe 296 00:24:57.000 --> 00:25:03.960 leather reporting. Well, I've certainly heard that argument made for years now, 297 00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:07.160 and to be perfectly honesty, I think it's somewhat of a safe harbor for 298 00:25:08.359 --> 00:25:14.000 conservatives and that and I will say, I mean I have made a point 299 00:25:14.559 --> 00:25:21.000 in my police reporting of going out into inner city meeting, community police meetings 300 00:25:21.160 --> 00:25:26.559 and giving voice to exactly the people you're talking about, the good, law 301 00:25:26.599 --> 00:25:32.640 abiding, hard working inner city residents who are terrified of the kids hanging out 302 00:25:32.680 --> 00:25:37.960 by the hundreds on the corner fighting and the kids colonizing their lobbies, selling 303 00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:44.039 weed and trespassing, and they want more officers. And there are some polls 304 00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:47.640 that, like, there was a Quinnipiac poll in New York City that showed 305 00:25:47.680 --> 00:25:52.440 that a slightly higher percentage of black voters in New York City than white voters 306 00:25:52.839 --> 00:25:59.319 wanted the police to enforce so called quality of life or broken windows, public 307 00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:07.039 order of fans. So I know that argument that having been said, I 308 00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:11.400 think I think it's somewhat of again a whitewash to think that there is not 309 00:26:11.559 --> 00:26:18.880 a huge black support for victim politics. And we just had the election of 310 00:26:19.000 --> 00:26:26.480 Brandon Johnson in Chicago in a runoff election against Paul Vallas, both Democrats, 311 00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:33.039 both very liberal Democrats, but Paul Vallas, the white run runner up, 312 00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:38.480 was more pro law enforcement than Brandon Johnson, the black candidate, who had 313 00:26:40.279 --> 00:26:45.759 before been explicitly defund the police, which I think is somewhat of a irrelevant 314 00:26:45.759 --> 00:26:52.200 category because we've had de facto defunding. You don't have to be explicitly for 315 00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:57.480 defunding to not have an incredibly pernicious effect on policing if you pursue the narrative 316 00:26:57.480 --> 00:27:03.160 that policing is racist. And Brandon Johnson certainly pursued that narrative. But the 317 00:27:03.200 --> 00:27:10.559 greatest votes for Brandon Johnson came in the highest crime areas of the city, 318 00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:15.799 which are overwhelmingly black. And so it is a real, real puzzle. 319 00:27:17.160 --> 00:27:23.160 And one can say that it is not for me to speculate why this is, 320 00:27:23.359 --> 00:27:30.759 but one can just look empirically and note that it is possible to be 321 00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:37.839 the most victimized by uncontrolled crime, which can only as far as we know 322 00:27:38.079 --> 00:27:45.559 from decades of comparing police response with social service response and greater government funding and 323 00:27:45.640 --> 00:27:52.279 more welfare and social workers up the gazoo, the only thing that works is 324 00:27:52.400 --> 00:27:56.240 police absent reconstruction of the black family. The police were but these communities would 325 00:27:56.319 --> 00:28:03.480 rather put up with crime than vote for somebody who is pro law enforcement, 326 00:28:03.559 --> 00:28:10.480 because that means giving up on the narrative that the police are somehow racist. 327 00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:14.759 So, yes, white liberals are the problem, but it's it's not as 328 00:28:14.839 --> 00:28:22.559 if they're imposing an ideology that is strongly resisted by the black community. Yeah, 329 00:28:22.680 --> 00:28:26.000 yeah, I mean I did notice that too, and was disturbed by 330 00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:30.400 that those results, although I did also notice that it was a close election 331 00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:37.119 and Johnson did very well on the Upper east side of Chicago, which, 332 00:28:37.160 --> 00:28:38.960 in other words, the closer you got to Northwestern University, the better he 333 00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:42.599 did. We know who lives up there, and I don't know. The 334 00:28:42.680 --> 00:28:48.279 voting behavior and sort of ethnic loyalties and voting is something that puzzles a lot 335 00:28:48.279 --> 00:28:52.559 of people in a lot of domains. And if I were you, if 336 00:28:52.559 --> 00:28:55.799 I were you, you could now, you know, raise against me the 337 00:28:55.880 --> 00:29:02.319 fact that all groups, by differing majorities, don't want racial preferences. So 338 00:29:02.519 --> 00:29:10.160 that's another example on your behalf right. But but I would just say the 339 00:29:10.200 --> 00:29:17.039 black activists and the black faculty in universities are just as bad as the white 340 00:29:17.079 --> 00:29:23.000 faculty and the students. The black students are wielding the power that they have 341 00:29:23.200 --> 00:29:29.920 by being black as much as they possibly can. Yeah, so, oh 342 00:29:29.960 --> 00:29:33.240 sorry, No, go ahead, Well, okay, I'll start drawing toward 343 00:29:33.279 --> 00:29:37.559 a conclusion and summarize for listeners that they want to read the central chapters of 344 00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:40.799 your book, where you go through. I mean, I think we're all 345 00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:47.039 familiar with stories reading in the media of cultural institutions caving into, you know, 346 00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:49.680 sort of absurd levels of racial consciousness, you know, dismissing the dosince 347 00:29:49.720 --> 00:29:55.039 of the Art Institute of Chicago, and but you have cataloged so many of 348 00:29:55.079 --> 00:29:57.720 them, it makes me realize that this is much more. In other words, 349 00:29:57.720 --> 00:30:02.480 those things we occasionally read about or not isolated examples, is sweeping the 350 00:30:02.680 --> 00:30:06.680 entire or cultural artistic artistic landscape. Is that? I think that's not an 351 00:30:06.680 --> 00:30:10.480 overstatement to put it that way. No, it's absolutely not an overstatement. 352 00:30:10.720 --> 00:30:15.720 There's not a single there's not a single arts institution that is not under relentless 353 00:30:15.759 --> 00:30:21.279 constant pressure to program on the basis of race, to hire, on the 354 00:30:21.319 --> 00:30:23.799 basis of race, to fund raise, on the basis of race to put. 355 00:30:23.799 --> 00:30:33.160 It makes its board of trustees racially proportionate, and many people are getting 356 00:30:33.160 --> 00:30:37.640 out. I mean, there's theater directors, heads of theater organizations are quitting 357 00:30:37.720 --> 00:30:44.599 right and left because the pressure coming from their funding organizations and their own staff 358 00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:48.960 is so overwhelming and it makes their job absolutely impossible. It's not what they 359 00:30:49.480 --> 00:30:55.839 went into theater for, which was to expand human possibilities of the imagination, 360 00:30:55.920 --> 00:31:00.279 and now they're being told to shrink it through the realities of race. And 361 00:31:00.559 --> 00:31:04.519 it's happening. I mean, the museum world is just utterly disgusting. I 362 00:31:04.559 --> 00:31:10.039 mean, there's some shows I write about the metropolit Museum of Art that has 363 00:31:10.440 --> 00:31:14.559 mounted a show that is the cancelation of all art in order to make the 364 00:31:14.680 --> 00:31:23.160 argument that an abolitionist sculpture, a work clearly intended to protest against slavery, 365 00:31:23.359 --> 00:31:27.880 is, in fact, according to the Metropol Museum, a pro slavery, 366 00:31:27.920 --> 00:31:33.799 white supremacist work. In order to make this completely counterfactual argument, requires the 367 00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:40.079 met to lie about every aspect of art history. To claim that an artist 368 00:31:40.200 --> 00:31:45.559 not naming his model is racist. Artists when that model is black, when 369 00:31:45.680 --> 00:31:52.480 racist. When artists have not named models forever. It requires the Metropolitan Museum 370 00:31:52.519 --> 00:31:59.480 of Art to claim that portraying the nude is racist when the model is black. 371 00:31:59.640 --> 00:32:02.519 When the nude, the white nude, has been the basis of Western 372 00:32:02.640 --> 00:32:07.160 art for five thousand years, when there are hundreds of thousands, if not 373 00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:14.240 millions, of portrayed white nudes out there in states of undressed, far more 374 00:32:14.279 --> 00:32:19.599 revealing than in this one statue that the MET is trying to deconstruct. I 375 00:32:19.640 --> 00:32:23.839 mean, this is an art museum so dedicated to anti racism that it means 376 00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:32.440 tearing up and imposing a completely counterfactual narrative on its own collections. Yeah. 377 00:32:32.519 --> 00:32:37.400 Yeah, that's the term I use for this is this is utter nihilism on 378 00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:40.799 top of everything else. All Right, one more big question and then a 379 00:32:40.920 --> 00:32:45.240 very short question and I'll let you go, Heather. The big question is 380 00:32:45.640 --> 00:32:50.279 your last chapter is called Saving Meritocracy, Saving a Civilization, and you know 381 00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:54.039 you quote someone early in the chapter saying it could take fifty to one hundred 382 00:32:54.119 --> 00:32:59.400 years things Actually he didn't say this, but my translation is things almost happy 383 00:32:59.400 --> 00:33:00.759 to get worse where they can get better. And then you have a few 384 00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:06.680 suggestions that maybe we need some forceful political interventions. But what can be So 385 00:33:06.720 --> 00:33:08.400 I'll just restate the question, what can be done to turn us around? 386 00:33:08.440 --> 00:33:13.559 What should be done to try and turn us around? Well, yes, 387 00:33:13.759 --> 00:33:16.079 and it's you're not putting words into his mouth. He absolutely said that. 388 00:33:16.519 --> 00:33:22.240 This is an oncologist talking about why nobody can speak out in his own profession 389 00:33:22.279 --> 00:33:27.359 and why he's not willing to speak out against the lies that that medicine is 390 00:33:27.480 --> 00:33:30.079 racist because they're all terrified of losing their jobs. So he said it's going 391 00:33:30.119 --> 00:33:35.000 to take fifty two hundred years. The entire medical system is going to have 392 00:33:35.039 --> 00:33:37.960 to collapse and be rebuilt because nobody right now is willing to stand up and 393 00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:43.200 defend it. So we'll all have to, you know, give up on 394 00:33:43.240 --> 00:33:46.799 Alzheimer's cures or cancer cure as while we're trying to make our labs happy and 395 00:33:46.839 --> 00:33:52.960 diverse. It's it's an absolute betrayal of what scientific method has been, which 396 00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:58.160 is about the scientific method, not about scientists. It's not about the race 397 00:33:58.200 --> 00:34:04.559 and identity of scientists, believe me, in any case. So it's coming 398 00:34:04.599 --> 00:34:07.440 down. Everything is coming down. I mean, people have their heads in 399 00:34:07.480 --> 00:34:12.639 their sands. Everything is coming down. If we allow racism to be the 400 00:34:12.679 --> 00:34:20.119 only allowable explanation for racial disparities. As long as Kendy has the final word, 401 00:34:20.199 --> 00:34:23.480 and any racial disparity is the result of racism, and you can't say 402 00:34:23.480 --> 00:34:28.280 anything else, the left winds, it is all coming down. My book 403 00:34:28.280 --> 00:34:35.679 provides the alternative explanations, which is massive academic skills gaps, massive crime gaps. 404 00:34:35.960 --> 00:34:38.239 So where do we start? Even though we were saying that now disparate 405 00:34:38.280 --> 00:34:44.679 impact has leaped out of the legal sphere into the culture at large. Nevertheless, 406 00:34:44.760 --> 00:34:51.280 one should of course start a president, presumably Republican, but if he's 407 00:34:51.280 --> 00:34:53.159 a Democrat. Good, you know, welcome to the fold. Guy. 408 00:34:54.280 --> 00:35:00.320 Get rid of every disparate impact regulation in the federal government executive branch that you 409 00:35:00.400 --> 00:35:07.039 can rewrite the regulations, take disperate impact out, take it out of the 410 00:35:07.119 --> 00:35:13.559 federal agencies. Right now, the federal science agencies make race and sex more 411 00:35:13.559 --> 00:35:19.440 important criteria in federal science granting than they do scientific merit. Get rid of 412 00:35:19.480 --> 00:35:22.599 that. I mean, the hundreds of millions of dollars that are coming out 413 00:35:22.599 --> 00:35:28.599 of the NIH, the National Science Foundation, the CDC, the Department of 414 00:35:28.719 --> 00:35:32.880 Energy, all around intersectionality and diversity is sickening. That can all come out 415 00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:37.840 with the stroke of a pen. He should pressure Congress get rewrite statutes, 416 00:35:37.880 --> 00:35:44.960 take disperate impact out. But then when that ends, when the policy changes, 417 00:35:45.239 --> 00:35:49.239 you've done them all. It's still going to take courage, and it's 418 00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:55.679 gonna take something for individuals within institutions to stand up and say I'm not racist, 419 00:35:55.760 --> 00:36:00.599 my colleagues are not racist, my institution is not racist. How you 420 00:36:00.679 --> 00:36:04.960 overcome the fear gap of people that are worried about losing their jobs is very 421 00:36:05.039 --> 00:36:09.360 tough. I came up with just some proposal of, you know, maybe 422 00:36:09.360 --> 00:36:16.239 a central organization that whenever anybody was willing to sort of be cannon fodder and 423 00:36:16.960 --> 00:36:22.280 stand up and speak the truth, this organization, in theory, would leap 424 00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:28.639 to his defense with the data that would explain why, you know, the 425 00:36:28.760 --> 00:36:36.639 Google engineering department is not thirteen percent black, or why a medical school student 426 00:36:36.679 --> 00:36:39.840 body is not yet thirteen percent black. But but they're getting there by getting 427 00:36:39.880 --> 00:36:46.440 rid of all meritocratic standards. And so what I find missing in our current 428 00:36:46.559 --> 00:36:53.920 discourse are people that are willing to broach breach Rachel etiquette and actually give the 429 00:36:53.960 --> 00:36:59.559 facts about and that it makes Americans very, very uncomfortable. We are so 430 00:36:59.599 --> 00:37:05.639 far from being white supremacists that we're willing to put up with these fictions that 431 00:37:05.800 --> 00:37:09.199 white are the threat to blacks, not other blacks, and that whites are 432 00:37:09.199 --> 00:37:13.760 the threat to Asians, not blacks. We say all these things in the 433 00:37:13.800 --> 00:37:19.599 face of video to the contrary, and we're so much not white supremacist that, 434 00:37:20.400 --> 00:37:22.519 you know, if I get up and tell the facts about crime, 435 00:37:23.360 --> 00:37:27.760 white conservatives will come up and say, well, you know, that makes 436 00:37:27.760 --> 00:37:30.320 me feel very uncomfortable. You really don't You shouldn't talk about those facts. 437 00:37:30.599 --> 00:37:37.360 Yeah, well, I'm sorry. I am not going to obey that etiquette 438 00:37:37.360 --> 00:37:40.239 any longer. It's too late. The hour is late, Steve. Because 439 00:37:40.719 --> 00:37:46.920 the left dominates the discourse with phony facts, it can hold those phony facts 440 00:37:47.000 --> 00:37:52.960 can only be rebutted with actual truth, and we have to start telling the 441 00:37:52.079 --> 00:37:57.119 truth. Yeah, all right. Exit question A short one, I think, 442 00:37:57.679 --> 00:38:00.760 which is what's next for you? You know, I began somewhat tongue 443 00:38:00.800 --> 00:38:02.559 and cheap, but only partially so that I'm always scared of what you're gonna 444 00:38:02.559 --> 00:38:07.480 take up next, because you're ahead of the curve on really disastrous trends. 445 00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:10.159 And I know you're working on promoting this book that's just brand new, but 446 00:38:10.400 --> 00:38:15.000 you have something on the drawing board. Is there a chance that Heather McDonald 447 00:38:15.119 --> 00:38:19.039 might take up for example, the gender war is currently going on. There's 448 00:38:19.079 --> 00:38:23.239 also a high quotation of insanity. Well, you know, I think about 449 00:38:23.320 --> 00:38:27.800 that a lot. Actually, I sort of feel like there's already being taken 450 00:38:27.920 --> 00:38:32.760 up. But I do have certain views and hypotheses about what's going on. 451 00:38:34.559 --> 00:38:39.159 I think it has not really been observed that part of this absolute insanity, 452 00:38:39.320 --> 00:38:44.800 I mean it is. It is truly the craziest thing that human beings have 453 00:38:44.960 --> 00:38:47.880 ever done and thought about and claimed, I think, in all of our 454 00:38:49.000 --> 00:38:52.320 history. And I'm not a fan of a lot of myths, you know. 455 00:38:52.480 --> 00:39:00.840 I'm a radical secularist, a radical materialist, radical and peerless empiricist. 456 00:39:00.480 --> 00:39:06.280 Uh So, a lot of sort of spiritual metaphysical claims I find as idiotic 457 00:39:06.360 --> 00:39:09.800 as much of the left. But this one takes the cake. But it 458 00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:19.159 does certainly fall in the long human history of of of a discomfort with mind 459 00:39:19.239 --> 00:39:22.559 body dualism, and revulsion towards the flesh. You know. So I see 460 00:39:22.679 --> 00:39:31.360 these these these just insane self castrators in part in the long tradition of of 461 00:39:32.400 --> 00:39:37.079 flagelence of our shirts, people trying to scourge the flesh. You know. 462 00:39:37.159 --> 00:39:43.840 It's a it's a yeah, exactly. It's a discomfort with the body, 463 00:39:43.920 --> 00:39:47.280 with carnality, with sexuality. And we saw it, you know, with 464 00:39:47.480 --> 00:39:52.519 anorexia, with cutting, and now we have cutting off one's genitals, uh 465 00:39:53.480 --> 00:39:58.599 or are trying to you know, de sex oneself. It's a it's absolutely 466 00:39:58.679 --> 00:40:02.639 bizarre, and it is also this has been observed. I think is that 467 00:40:04.440 --> 00:40:09.440 if you can get the public to go along with the idea that males can 468 00:40:09.519 --> 00:40:16.079 get pregnant, you have people utterly under your control. I mean, there's 469 00:40:16.360 --> 00:40:23.400 there's no aspect of truth in the world that you cannot simply rewrite to suit 470 00:40:23.519 --> 00:40:29.360 your will. Um And and it's also just a deep, deep hatred of 471 00:40:29.519 --> 00:40:35.639 everything traditional and bourgeois. It also grows out of just a profound hatred for 472 00:40:35.880 --> 00:40:43.039 the biological, heterosexual, two parent family. And so you know, this 473 00:40:43.280 --> 00:40:46.679 began with feminism, grew with gay rights. You know, I think that 474 00:40:46.880 --> 00:40:53.440 truth to be a trojan horse. Frankly that were I mean, I just 475 00:40:53.679 --> 00:41:00.400 wonder why at this point, what are we celebrating with gay pride marchese. 476 00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:05.079 You know, as I say, being female is not an accomplishment. I 477 00:41:05.159 --> 00:41:08.519 don't. I don't go around saying female I deserve, you know, plaudits 478 00:41:08.559 --> 00:41:15.679 for that, and being gay is not an accomplishment. But I think it 479 00:41:15.880 --> 00:41:23.280 was ultimately about more attack on bourgeois normalcy as opposed to wanting to expand the 480 00:41:23.400 --> 00:41:29.960 reach of bourgeois normalcy. So well, Heather, whatever you take up next, 481 00:41:30.159 --> 00:41:32.920 we'll look forward to it with some fear and trepidation, but always eagerness 482 00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:36.199 for how well you do it. Thanks very much, Heather, and good 483 00:41:36.280 --> 00:41:38.159 luck. Thank you so much, Steve. It's great talking with you. 484 00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:45.559 Don't go away. We've got a PostScript for you right after these messages. 485 00:41:47.880 --> 00:41:52.360 All right, a couple of last things before we go. We barely scratch 486 00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:54.559 the surface with Heather in that conversation, so by all means, get her 487 00:41:54.639 --> 00:42:00.199 book book mark, also her appearances at City Journal and the other outlets where 488 00:42:00.199 --> 00:42:04.679 she appears frequently. She's amazingly prolific. We'll be back this weekend as usual 489 00:42:04.800 --> 00:42:08.440 with all three of the regular bartenders at the three Whiskey Happy Hour. And 490 00:42:08.719 --> 00:42:13.159 also, since we're trying to step up our game and attracting advertising support so 491 00:42:13.280 --> 00:42:15.480 we can expand the podcast, I guess this is the point where I need 492 00:42:15.519 --> 00:42:21.639 to encourage people to go on iTunes or whatever podcast platform they use, give 493 00:42:21.719 --> 00:42:23.960 us a five star rating, etc. Etc. That helps us attract more 494 00:42:23.960 --> 00:42:28.199 of an audience. It also helps us get new guests. I suppose, 495 00:42:28.360 --> 00:42:30.760 in any event, don't forget to milk the soft power dividend and let's go 496 00:42:30.880 --> 00:43:02.639 Brandon, Bye bye, everybody. Ricochet joined the conversation