Love talk radio. Welcome to us a think tank with your host Alejandro rou
all Right, I really love that intro music that comes from Kevin McCloud of
a Clan McCloud, great guy. He has a lot of free music up
on his website, so check it out if you have a blog, if
you have a podcast, you know, it's got a lot of cool music
he lets people use for free. Anyhow, this is Alejandro Rojas here to
talk with Rob Switek today. So many of you know, I'm the Moufon
Director of Public Education, so I handle media all of that fun stuff for
Mofon International, and our guest tonight is one of my move On bosses.
We have a board, a business board, made up of seven or eight
people, and they're really kind of the guys who the brain trust figure out
what we're going to do and how James, our international director, you might
have seen him on our Discovery show. He's the guy who kind of does
a lot of the day to day but he has a lot of guidance from
some very wise and intelligent people who have been in this field for a long
time. Most of them have been in this field for decades, including our
guests tonight, Rob Switek. He has been involved with the fun for UFO
Research out of DC. He's also FU for I love the alphabet suit that
the term UFO lets you create FOO for. He's also been part of the
UFO Research Coalition, so that what with that be U Fork. There's a
new fork two out there you've probably heard of. There's couposts, there's a
lot of them. But yet this is a gentleman who's been with FOU for,
move On and coup Fork. So we'll talk to him a lot about
that what he's done over the decades. He does. You've probably seen him
on a couple documentaries out there, and he also speaks at conferences. In
fact, he's at a conference right now, so we'll ask him about that.
However, before we get to Rob, I think he's on the line,
if you could just give me a sec I always like to go over
some UFO news. So first off is the Examiner dot com. Some of
you have probably seen this site. It's become like this hubbub of UFO information,
which is wonderful. It was a website put up really just to get
news across and they had a great idea of having some blogs in local areas
on different subjects, so getting some local people that are experts on this or
that, including I've seen a beer examiner. Denver has a beer examiner.
But a lot of areas have UFO experts. A lot of them are moofon
members, which is wonderful. So Roger Marsh started one in Chicago. He
has now become the national UFO Examiner and he actually works with moufon and he
was doing this already. He was putting together moofon reports and kind of writing
little stories on him and putting up on his website. Now this gives him
a national audience, which is great because he does a good job. So
one of the news links I have up here, and of course if you're
listening on a podcast, you could go to UFO think tank dot com and
scroll to the bottom and you'll see these news pieces. Or if you're on
the blog talk radio, you could click on the right hand side for the
UFO Think Tank Yahoo groups. You could actually subscribe to that too, or
if you're a moofon member, I also send these out on the moof on
Yahoo groups, So you could go to the moufon dot com and get these
stories. But Roger Marsh has put out a lot of move on reports this
week, reports over Utah, Texas and Pennsylvania, so we have a lot
of sightings going on. He wrote another story about three or four sightings of
disc shaped objects. And of course, if you're familiar with UFOs, even
though people think it's kind of silly, some people are shocked when they see,
you know, different logos with the disc on there and they I've been
asked before by reporters, well don't you think that's kind of trivializing things and
kind of silly, And I say no, because that's what people report.
People are seeing silver discs, just like they copied and put in the movies
back when, So that's what people are seeing. They also see V shapes
and in Pennsylvania he writes some stories on some V shapes that people have seen
out there. So there's a lot of news there you'll want to check out.
John Chuschler another member of our business board. He luckily he keeps an
eye on the media and sends me some links. So we have a couple
links of photos being taken of UFOs out of Japan and the Czech Republic.
The Czech Republic actually has the photo on the story. The Japanese one doesn't.
But the Japanese story is very interesting because it talks about how a lot
of people in Japan don't like to mention that they have sightings because of fear
of ridicule and social standing. But they've had a couple famous people, a
couple of younger famous models and stars and things like that, come out and
talk about the UFOs that they've seen, so they're hopeful that that'll kind of
change that perspective. Another story that's interesting because it comes once again from the
Examiner, but it comes from the Denver Progressive Examiner, meaning this is a
guy who typically writes about politics, but he has a story about Phil Schneider,
UFOs and the black budget. So if you're not aware of who Phil
Schneider was, this is a gentleman who came out and said that he was
an engineer. He said that he helped build secret underground bases in New Mexico.
He says he helped build one under dia in Denver, and he died
in a mysterious way. And if you go to YouTube you can see some
interviews with him. He says that aliens shot him with a laser and fried
off his fingers and cut out in his stomach, and he has these actual
physical wounds that you could see. So obviously a very controversial subject, but
interesting that a political writer should be getting into that area. And then finally
this weekend, I think, starting tomorrow and all week long, the History
Channel is going to have a show on ancient astronauts and aliens, so that
ot'd be good. It's going to have Eric vondnikin if you know him,
he way back in the seventies started looking into what he called ancient astronauts or
evidence of aliens, some alien pictures and alien visitations in the distant past.
So that should be a very interesting story on something that you guys might want
to check out. So there's the UFO news for the week. Let's move
on, and I think I've got Rub on the line. Let's talk to
our good buddy. I'm real excited to have him her. Alejandro. There
we go, Hey there, how you doing good, Alejandro. Good to
speak with you, Good to be on your show. Yeah you too.
It's always fun to talk. And we've got another symposium coming up this summer,
which is always fun for all of us to hang out and talk and
catch up. Yeah, they're intense. I will say that, you know,
with the guests and everything gets it's an intense weekend. It's busy,
busy. But I think what's interesting now that I think about it, a
lot of the times when we sit down and talk, we're not really necessarily
talking about UFOs. Well, you're right, yeah, we have a right.
Yeah. I was just gonna say, we have our business board agenda,
and yeah, we we're not actually talking about details of fightings so much
as we're talking about how we're going to UH expend the resources of UFON or
how we're going to handle a particular situation or state director or whatever the case
might be. Very little actual UFO UH reports are discussed at our business board
meetings. I will say, yeah, but you can go to Roger Marsha's
UFO Examiner to get those details. But you're at a conference right now.
Yeah. I'm at the International Forting and Organization Conference and I and I didn't
make it back to my hotel. I let's put it this way. Eight
minutes ago, I was sitting across the table from Bud Hopkins, and now
I'm sitting in the parking lots and so and and the company is equally good
in each in each instance. So that's how that is. Well, hopefully
you've got some decent weather and you're not freezing out in the car or something.
Yeah, thank the Lord here it's it's seventy degrees or sixty five degrees
or something, otherwise this would be an ordeal. Were good. I know
a lot of people just got back from Laughlin, and that's what's a lot
of fun out there, the warm weather in the winter. Yeah, you
got that right. That's a big conference and on a lot of speakers,
and one of our people from Northern Virginia was going out there too often.
So I'm looking forward to meeting with him maybe next week and sitting down and
finding out what he has to say about the speakers he saw on the tenor
of the of the conference and that type thing. All right, Well,
I want to start with you with getting back to the past and kind of
how you got involved with all of this, and I believe from what I've
read, you've got involved in the late sixties. Yeah. I hate to
have to admit that I've been around in the field that long, but you're
correct, that's My interest was peaked in the in the late sixties, and
it's never been unpeaked since then, let's put it that way. And I'm
still as fascinated by this subject back and as I was back in nineteen sixty
eight. Mm hmm. And it was a Condon report that got you really
interested. Yeah, you know, it's it's sort of was that as sort
of in contradistinction to nowadays. When we had details of UFO sightings, they
appeared on the front page of the newspaper, not in the style section or
in the culture section or in a joke section, but news was actually on
the front page. And I got somehow I got hooked over a sighting.
I don't pretend to be an abductee. I was never sucked up into a
UFO or anything like that, but the sightings got me hooked. And simultaneously
with them, I read about this group of people of scientists actually, that
was looking into the subject at the University of Colorado, and I just thought
that was that was so marvelous. And I figured to myself that after having
read just a while about UFOs, that it would probably be a matter of
just a few years before this whole mystery would be sort of rolled up once
the professional scientist got involved, and we know all the answers, and little
did I know that forty years from that day, you know, you and
I would be having this conversation and we essentially know as much about UFOs now
as we knew back then. We haven't learned too much about the actual phenomenon,
right, And so you said it was a couple of sightings though that
originally got you interested. Well, yeah, I don't remember what exactly what
ones they were, but like I say, local sightings would be on the
front page of the newspaper, and UFO books were Yeah, yeah, we're
very highly placed in stores. It wasn't difficult to find a UFO book,
and reading a few of those, it just completely got me just intrigued,
as fascinated, whatever words you want to use there as to this strange subject
that was going on all around normal everyday life. So it wasn't actual personal
sightings that you had, No, I've never had, never had a fighting
unfortunately. Really that is interesting because it's interesting that I know a few.
I know John Schuschler, well he has had a sighting, but you know,
he was in this for a long time before then, and me too.
I didn't get involved with this from a sighting that I had. It
was really this disclosure project, and I had sightings years later. But yeah,
yeah, it was the intrinsic intellectual curiosity that that just got me involved.
Mm hmm, yeah, me as well. So you know, I
want to that brings up another topic I kind of wanted to mention too.
In your thoughts on back then, you thought, oh, look at these
scientists in Colorado are picking this up. We must be close to a disclosure
or an understanding. Yeah today, uh huh, yeah, you're right.
Oh yeah, I didn't mean to interrupt you. There, go ahead,
Oh, no problem coming up to today then, do you feel that,
you know, there's a lot of stories about us getting closed about Obama and
more less secrecy. Do you think we're any closer today than we were back
then? No, I don't. Unfortunately, I don't think we're any closer
today than we were back then. You know, every change of administration,
or almost every four years, even if the administration doesn't change, I seem
to hear stories about wow disclosures right around the corner. Reagan's going to release
details of UFOL sightings once he's out of office. Well, Clinton's going to
release details of uful sightings because he's getting to an end of his term.
Bush is going to you know, and and it probably goes back to Eisenhower,
you know, or before. And I just don't feel that this subject
is releasing its grip on on on on the mystery, that it's releasing its
grip of its secrets very easily, which is not making any progress unfortunately.
Alejandro, in my little opinion here, m hm, Well, you know,
I hear this from the people who have been in this for decades,
Leo Sprinkle, John Schuschler, a couple of the people that I've asked and
have the same response that you know, we've been in this for a long
time. There were un meetings way in the past about UFOs, that's nothing
new. There were presidents who have talked about UFOs in the past, that's
nothing new. They've they've gone through so many times where they thought it was
going to happen that you know, a little more skeptical when it comes to
a lot of the talk that goes on today. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And I'm privileged. Karen in the Virginia Washington, DC area, to
know fellows like Richard Hall and Don Berlenner who were both key and instrumental players
with the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena back in the in the mid sixties
and early sixties nightcaps. And I really feel that in some say nineteen sixty
five to nineteen seventy, the tide actually started to turn back then, and
there there was a core or a cadre of scientists, including doctor McDonald James
McDonald, who were making inroads into serious investigation of this subject and in training
more scientists into the subject. For example, when doctor McDonald would speak before
oh, the Scientific Group, the Triple As, some American Association for the
Advancement of Science, or the once he spoke before the Naval Ordnance Laboratory.
He spoke before audiences that were composed entirely of scientists and engineers, professional guys,
and I have some of the recordings from these. I have the recordings
of these speeches. And when he gave his talk, you could hear a
pin drop in the room. There was no snickering of embarrassment or or laughter
or derisive statements. And these were all scientists, practically none of whom worked
in the UFO field, but they were there to hear what doctor McDonald and
esteemed scientists had say. And in contradistinction to today, where you know,
Alejandro, how hard we worked to get any new scientists coming into the field,
But hardly anybody ever speaks before a purely scientific conference on the UFOs nowadays,
and it just doesn't happen. And the tide turned and the Colorado Report
was released, and ever since that day, I think we just haven't been
on the ascendancy with regard to mainstream science. How did you feel when that
report came out? Well, I felt I was obviously kind of young,
and I'm still just a teenager, but I felt damned downcast, to be
honest with you, I recall knowing that the report was going to be published
on the jam Nwar in nineteen sixty nine, and eagerly turning on the TV
and going to the book department of a store I was in, and lo
and behold there was the University of Colorado report, and almost simultaneously it appeared
on the news with a very disconcerting conclusion that doctor Condon put at the beginning
on his report that there was no reason to scientifically study the subject, but
there was nothing to it. And yeah, even for me, a little
outsider, a kid, I was very, very very disappointed. Yeah,
and that seemed to have a big effect then on that professional field, a
group of people that you're talking about, because that's where you saw that tied
turn where there were no longer these addresses to these large groups of scientists.
Yeah, you're more correct. The scientist sort of got into walk step behind
doctor conn then, and two years after the Colorado report came out, doctor
McDonald committed suicide and shortly thereafter Nightcap disbanded, at least the Nightcap that was
around then. It continued for a few years after. But yeah, from
scientific point of view, is the study of the subject dropped off drastically,
you know, so like the Dow Jones has dropped off drastically in the past
couple of months. That's how scientific interest in UFO has dropped off. Yeah,
and we regained it. Yeah, well, we're working on it likely,
you know. I had a call with Robert Wood and other one of
our directors and Robert Powell and Ron Rigueri yesterday where we're working on a scientific
symposium where hopefully we'll be able to gain some of that ground back question.
Yeah, that's an admirable, admirable effort, and that's what we need.
And tomorrow, for example, Alejandro, I will be discussing for are part
of my talk the Stephenville MUFON Radar Report, because that's an enormously important document
and it deserves to get out there to the mainstream community of people. And
we'll see how it goes. Yep, Well, getting into you know,
Condon's a good start, because that's what why MUFON started, kind of a
result of conon. Hey, you guys aren't going to do it, so
we'll do. And I believe that the Fund for UFO Research started around the
same time as that. Correct, Yeah, the fund started about nineteen seventy
nine. And yeah, Richard Hall, Don Berlinner and one of our other
directors in upon Tom Dooley, were actually instrumental and sounding the Fund for UFO
Research. These guys decided one day, sitting at a bar someplace, that
what was needed in the UFO field was an organization that could just raise money
and give the money back out again for scientific research, and not publish a
journal or not have a membership organization, but just seek to gain funds and
seek to give them back out again to scientists or other researchers. And up
until recently that model worked fairly well, and we've just sort of run out
of money unfortunately, but we succeeded and hopefully will succeed in the future in
doing some pretty interesting things a little bit of money. What were some of
the interesting projects that you guys were able to work on, Well, we
did a lot, and had, for example, gathered together all the witnesses
living witnesses to various aspects of the Roswell mystery who had experienced these elements of
the Roswell mystery firsthand back in nineteen forty seven. We've paid people to investigate
UFO photos. We contributed to the Crop Circle research back in the late eighties.
We've done a lot of work with abductees, both in Virginia and just
with other researchers who came to us with projects they wanted us to help fund.
So I guess I could honestly say that we've the fund has been involved
in almost every facet of the UFO field that you could think of, from
history to abductions and another alphabet super list of things. All right, So
let me ask you about a couple of those topics that you guys tackled Roswell.
First of all, do you feel there is evidence then that there was
a secret and do you go as far as to believe that it was an
extraterrestrial craft? Well, well, you know, Alejandro, I don't really
make too many statements of fact in this field. I do think that what
happened back in Roswell the Brazel Ranch was profound. Whether it was the crash
of an alien object, I don't know. I tend to think that it
probably was, and we just have never really received the full story on one
what was recovered back then. There's some documents, theirs, eyewitness testimony,
but the truth probably remains, much like the Ark of the Covenant in the
UH in the Indiana Jones movies, that it's hidden someplace and in and in
compartmented off that so securely for a few people even know about that stuff.
Now, once in a while it's trotted out and maybe they reconsider it in
the light of new technology, can't make any heads or tails of it,
and it's put back in again, and there it stays. Few people know
and uh, and until the government actually comes out with the actual wreckage or
documents, I don't think we're going to progress in anywhere beyond where we are
now with that with that subject. Mm hmm. So then, what were
some of the interesting things some of the witnesses that you guys had gotten contact
with. What were they saying? Well, yeah, they told a very
intriguing story. For example, we got uh, Jesse Marcel to come out,
and then we got a fellow named Verne Maultay. I don't think he's
alive anymore. Another fella named Chrome Schroeder. A bunch of people who played
various roles in the Roswell episode as we knew it back in nineteen ninety and
we had all the UFO researchers that were looking at too crash UFOs. So
we had Stan Gordon there and Kevin Randall, Stan Friedman of course, and
a number of other people, and we just asked them to do an oral
history project and we recorded on video what they had to say their testimony,
and we grilled them and that's how that went. We got their stories and
for posterity, and we later came out with a DVD or a VHS tape
and that's still available if a person wanted to get a copy of that really
and we want you find it, well, the Fund for UFO Research Bill
sells that thing. I can't say that our website's going strong, but we
do have a DVD. It's called I don't even know the Roswell Experience or
Roswell Best Evidence. I can't remember what the title of that is. But
it's like an hour or two hour long DVD that has the best of the
excerpts from this videotape testimony and oh cool, Yeah, it's it's just kind
of neat, to be honest with you. It's just raw sort of footage
with some people asking questions, and it's it's not high tech, high tech
production or anything like that, but it's it's a valuable and at least was
a valuable adjunct to the researchers as of say, circa nineteen ninety mm hmm,
yeah, that sounds like a cool video. So down there, okay,
who unfortunately has passed away now, right, but not without leaving us
some pretty interesting kid bits. Yeah yeah, back then, yeah, yeah,
back then, Walter Haught wasn't talking and this is a curious thing.
Walter Haught wasn't talking about having seen bodies or anything like that. He just
gave us basically the story of how he wrote the press release and what happened
subsequent to that. He didn't say anything about seeing bodies, nor did he
even hint that he had that he had seen these anything beyond just the press
release. I don't even think he saw any of the wreckage. According to
his testimony then, and as you probably know, obviously, not too long
before he died, he came out with videotape testimony indicating that he did see
something significantly more important than just records, that he saw bodies of a type,
some creatures or something like that. And I don't know what whether he
just withheld that deliberately from us. I don't know what to think of Walter
Hobb's testimony, Mm hmm. What about Colonel KOSHA's testimony? Yeah, there,
there, there, I have a lot more reason to be to be
skeptical, Alejandro, at least, it's this is just from my opinion.
Uh course, though has or or did, over the course of the little
time he was involved in eupology publicly alleged so many almost impossible things that that
I just couldn't buy it. Bases on the moon, on the far side
of the moon, spectacular inventions that that I know from my work at the
Patent Office weren't invented by aliens but were invented by human scientists and engineers.
That I just I just don't accept his testimony. I'm not saying he wasn't
involved maybe with UFOs someway, but the gist of his testimony as being at
the center of this sort of effort to get alien technology into the hands of
private industry, I just don't buy it. Hm. Interesting, Well,
why do you think someone like him, with the background he has would make
up something like that? Well, well, obviously, Alejandro, again these
things, this kind of testimony sold a book, and people used to say
that of Ed Walters, Well, why would Ed Walters fake all these UFO
photographs? Well it made him a lot of money, you know, and
and and it made course a certain amount of money, and it brought him
a certain amount of of fame. He was on TV shows, his name
was being bandied about in at least the UFO community, and he might have
had a role to play in the field back then, but he substantially exaggerated
it, and I just don't give credence to the wilder aspects of what he
has to say. I mean, just to take the part of inventions.
I know how the patent process and the invention process works, having been involved
in it for so many years at the patent office, and I know that
night vision scopes, for example, were have a long pedigree of inventions before
they reached the stage of development they have today, for example, And people
think, well, Valkerol was given to us by the Aliens. That's complete
nonsense. Velcrol was invented by a Swiss inventor. I think back in nineteen
fifty five, and I have this. I think it was a Swiss patent
or something like that. And the transistor, the events and the electronics in
the mid nineteen forties in the early nineteen forties were leading inevitably and inelectively toward
the transistor. It didn't just jump on the scene fully formed. It replaced
the tube, you know, the triode tube. And it was a very
logical, very logical extension of existing technology. M all right. Thinking of
some of the more range areas, or at least at some perspective, as
abductions, you said that your fund for UFO research also has worked on the
abduction area. So what do you feel about bad aspect? You were just
talking with Bud Hopkins. It sounds like, so what are your thoughts on
abductions? Yeah, my thoughts, I guess it would you know, how
abductions are a hanzo. You and I could probably have this radio program and
extend it to twenty four hours and we'd still hardly cover just abductions. But
yeah, I definitely something is going on there. And again, abductions are
sort of like the wave particle nature duality of physics. You know, we
say a particle, a white particle can act sometimes like a piece of a
wave like in the ocean, or can be acting like a particle, And
abductions have this sort of dual nature. Some of the abductions seem to take
place in this physical reality as we know it, and some of them seem
to involve Whether it's just it's just some kind of a mental abduction, I
don't know, but there's a physical component to it of that, there's no
doubt. And the poor abductees are undergoing some kind of of an experience that
leads them traumatized and by no means is that purely a mental phenomenon. I'm
not going to try to characterize it like that, because people are missing from
their homes and they are gone from their cars, and they are returned,
and there's this gap of time and something is going on again of a very
profound nature. Ahead I'm just gonna quickly add, you know, you and
I haven't haven't had a chance to talk about this too much. But we
did have the AMP project, the Ambient Monitoring Project, or the Abduction Monitoring
Project, where we actually put boxes of instruments in people's homes to register what
was going on in the space of their their bedroom, mostly during the night
when they said they would be having abductions. And that project we got a
sponsor for and we've spent several hundreds of thousands of dollars on that project to
try to figure out what was going on with abductions. And that's still under
analysis, right, all of the resolves for the data, yeah, it
sure is. We're looking for a few good statisticians and we have reams of
data, but we have not been able to find a person yet who has
been able to develope the time needed to look at all that data and if
there's a pattern there or if there's a signal there. We haven't yet had
anybody bring it out and were literally Mark Rodiger of the Center for UFO Studies
and I talked about this two nights ago. Are our latest ploy to try
to find somebody, and right now we're just at sort of at loose ends.
Yeah, what I find interesting, well, of what sort of data
were you collecting? Well, for example, the box would measure We've never
actually released what all the instruments were, but doesn't really matter too much now.
But for example, we were measuring the presence or the absence of light,
or the presence or the absence of So we had a microphone in the
box and it couldn't pick up conversation, but it just picked up noise or
sound level, I guess is a good way of putting it. And we
for example, could record the temperature in a room because sometimes MVPs say it
got very cold in the room during the abduction, or a bright light appeared,
or you know that type of a thing, And so we tried to
pick those instruments we thought would record what we believed went on during an abduction.
So even if we don't. If we don't get back any evidence that
anything occurred in these people's rooms, maybe it's just because we chose the wrong
instruments. But you have to start somewhere. You have to start somewhere.
But the people that you chose, did they feel they had events happen while
the box was present? An excellent question, Alan, excellent question. The
people were chosen on the basis of past ongoing UFO abduction experience is and during
the course of their keeping the box in their home, they were requested to
keep a daily journal and to put down whether anything happened to them the night
each day. So they sometimes they might just check a box that said no,
or other times they might check a boxes said yes and yeah. Indeed,
a number of the people did have what they said were abduction events happened
while the boxes in their room, and they did check the yes box in
the journal. Yeah. That that's that's the kind of studies that are so
exciting. So, I mean, I hope if there are any statiticians out
there, you know, get a hold of move On, because we're involved
with move On, right, We're involved with helping to get the results analyzed.
Uh, you know, get a hold of us, we could see
what's there. That's it's sometimes there's just so much data that it's hard to
get through. Yeah, in this case, there's literally deep these of data.
The box would be as a motive and each day Tom Dooley would download
the results of all the boxes, and I guess we had about twelve or
thirteen of them at the height of the project, at twelve or thirteen addectees
going, I guess we had about six boxes. And so each day he
would collect the data from the five or six boxes out in the field,
and over the course of six months, one box would produce an awful lot
of data. A lot of it wasn't important, or it was data collected
during the day, but nonetheless some of that data is probably important and it
may there may be a signal there in all the static. What's also interesting,
I think about the abduction phenomena is one where even the most conservative of
UFO researchers, you know, with the most credentials out there, pretty much
once you look into this buield because I know when I got started, I
was a little skeptical, but once you do the research, you find that
they're really is something to that phenomenon. Yeah, you're one hundred percent right,
and it sort of mirrors the ongoing UFO phenomenon. But if you,
just as I have done, sit down with enough abductees and realize that the
depth of their emotions when it comes to the subject the abduction phenomenon sometimes,
believe me, it leads us in tears or it shakes us the researchers up
a great deal when we're sitting there. It's not easy to deal with abductees
on an emotional level. It's far easier to deal with someone who says they
saw a disc shaped ob to go across the sky than it is to talk
about somebody who has undergone admittedly very seemingly traumatic experiences at the hands of these
whatever the phenomenon is, right, I know, you know, even though
being skeptical, I tried to be open when people started to come to me
with sharing that they have these sort of experiences, and it wasn't long before,
you know, the ones that we're coming to me. For the most
part, we're saying they also see UFOs, often some claiming they had some
videos, and at least one where I looked at her videos and they were
impressive and then lo and behold. I eventually had my own experience with seeing
something unexplainable with her. And now you know, I've seen UFOs with three
different people who claim to be abductees. Yeah, and that's you know,
the hard, hard stuffs to throw away there to ignore. Yeah, I
can't say as I ever. Maybe I'm at hard kind of I drawn back
a little bit. But I always would interview with abductees from the safety of
my living room with a number of people. Sometimes that would be to call
or my wife or whomever. But I can't say as I ever would go
over to the house and spend a lot of time there. Sometimes I would
interview them in the house during the day, but I never asked them to
try to create an experience where I might be involved. That might be closer
than I want to get. I have. But you know, as far
as beyond seeing UFOs, I haven't seen anything more. Well, I've seen
a few other things, splashes of lights and things like that. Hearing strange
noises, your few feet up on me. Well, yeah, I know
it can't be a little People are like, are you crazy? But you
know, I want to get to the heart of it. So what I
understand what you're saying, but you know, that's what I would advise for
if there are some effects. You say, they see stuff often even during
the day. I mean my siding with this, this one female I'm talking
about, it was during the day, so that wasn't as scary. And
what I found interesting was she was like, well, you know, come
over to do some skywatching. Okay, you know, I thought it'd be
a few hours outside watching this guy. No, it's mostly hanging out looking
at this talking, going outside for short periods of time. But sure enough,
like the second time, you know, just like some people say they
have a feeling, it was just going out there and lo and behold something
in the sky. That's kind of strange. Chat go ahead, Yeah,
I was gonna say, it's just very odd. That's very intriguing because you're
exactly right. Some abductees and not all of them and at the same time
or anything like that, but some of them actually see things in the sky
sometimes, and other addictees I'm convinced somehow are taken and no objects ever necessarily
seen over their house. Otherwise, you know, Yuphon will be receiving literally
hundreds of reports every day about low hovering UFOs over homes that were just seen
by a neighbor who will happen to get up to walk around the house or
take the dog out or something, and saw a something hovering over the neighbor's
house, who's an advcty. But we don't get many of those kind of
reports. So what the hell is going on with regards That's a great question,
because you know, I had been working on a case where there was
physical evidence, and that's where I think it's interesting with abductions. I think
if we're going to get a case of physical evidence, it's going to most
likely be with abductees. And some people could argue Roger Lear has already done
that. But right those cases where there is evidence that this person was taken
and it's in the middle of a neighborhood full of thousands of people, sure,
this seems to happen in the middle of the night, but with nobody
seeing it, you know, and with the person remembering being taken up into
a with a beam into a craft and nobody seeing that, just like you
said, that is mind boggling. Yeah, yeah, it really is.
And unless a person posits as people do that absolutely nothing is going on with
abductions. It's all mental phenomenon that would explain the data, some of the
data. But people are actually missing, and yet they're not We're just not
seeing those objects. When I lived in Crystal City, Virginia, which is
where the Patent Office sets to be located, right by National Airport, the
streets were well lit, and yet there were large apartment buildings up and down
the street that I lived on, including the one I lived in, And
at any time of the day or night, there was traffic down the road
I lived down there, Eide Street. Anytime of the day or night,
people were going by and it was well lit. And yet within the confines
of Eide Street there would be thousands of renters, thousands of renters, and
you just know some of those people were abductees based upon the demographics of abdup
sees scattered throughout society. But yet I never heard reports of wow, UFO
was hovering over the apartment building down the street. Never, but yet,
right, you just know that there were something that season those buildings. How
is that? Yeah, there are only two cases I've seen where I remember
there was someone, wasn't it? Even a un official who saw said he
saw a UFO affecting someone in New York. You were correct, that was
n Hopkins, famous up Linda Kray, Linda K. Cortily. And then
we received a report here in Colorado once outside and and I know Springs,
where they said they saw this object going like house to house and shooting this
laser down for a period of half an hour in the middle of the night.
Yeah, but that's pretty good trying to fault in the case, of
course, verged very close to that. But but they're few and far between,
to be honest with you, right, Yeah, I agree. That's
all I've heard of about of thousands of ca So you're right, that is
an aspect that's mind boggling. I think that's why some of the better lines.
Personally, I am huge fan of John mac and he tries to go
to those other areas. Maybe there is kind of a non physical element to
all of this, Maybe it's multi dimensional, but something else going on here
to You've got to account for that, you know. Yeah, I think
you've put your finger on something. I personally hate to explain one mystery in
terms of another, but I oftentimes have to say there's some bending of dimensions
going on here. There's traveling through dimensions and I'm not sure what that means,
but there's some very very advanced physics going on here that the human race
is nowhere near close to tapping into. And I think the UFO phenomenon,
and here we're getting down to really a lot of speculation on my part,
but having been around this field so long, it's an extraordinarily profound mystery.
It's it's more, it's it's far more complex than just physical craft going across
the sky. There's there's there's some other that they're able to insinuate themselves into
our world and into our physical reality in some way that we're not close to
explaining. And that's that's both exciting and it's also depressing because I'm not so
sure that we're going to make any inroads into this phenomenon anytime soon. Well,
I I like the way that bick Pope puts it. He says,
it's an event led field where you know, we chase the events, and
really it's the events defining what's going on. So yeah, like you said,
yeah, you're you're one hundred percent right. And the new from's the
latest endeavor here with with with mister Bigelow is going to put what you just
said to the test, because we we're depending on the phenomenon to show itself
here so we can get investigators out into the field where at it's mercy,
right, and it you know, it gets back to Furme's paradox. You
know, if they're here, why don't have evidence that they're here. If
they're here, like I think we both agree, then they haven't allowed us
to or haven't provided that sort of evidence, it seems. And so until
they decide to which could be tomorrow or it could be never, then perhaps
you know, we're at their mercy. We're at the mercy that way.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's that's that's exactly right. I'm fond of
saying to people that we're dealing with, in my opinion, non humans,
and we don't know how non humans are going to act, and so try
to to try to predict non humans on the basis of human behavior is ludicrous.
It would. You can just imagine the ant colony to answer the ant
colony saying, well, if these large beings around here were truly intelligent,
they contact the Queen aunt and you know, no hope of understanding human society.
Maybe we can't understand Anthelm, but the two were just in two completely
different worlds. And sometimes the UFO phenomenon seems that far beyond us that I
wonder if we're really capable of coming to grips with whatever it is that's going
on. I think we are. I am ultimately optimistic, but not necessarily
in the short term. Right. Well, there are some people in the
chat asking some questions. There's a guy named Democratic Communists. He's asking a
lot of questions, but I think he already has his answers determined for him.
So I don't know if we're gonna convince that person. But one of
the questions in there from one of the other listeners was twenty twelve. They
wanted to know your thoughts on twenty twelve. That's a good question. This
is an aside. John Ventry, the Pennsylvania MUFON stage director, spoke at
the INFO conference a few hours ago today and that was his topic. He
didn't talk on UFOs. He spoke on twenty twelve. And I don't know,
ale Hanjo. I don't profess to be an expert in an Aztec and
Aztec history or lore, and I guess I take kind of a that's called
a silly approach. But I just think when December twenty second, twenty twelve
comes, we're all just going to be going back to work. I think
it's maybe a work day the next day. We're all just going to have
to go back to work and earn our earn our living, and keep heap
coming into our homes. If it's you know, if we're in the colder
parts of the country, and I have absolutely no idea. I don't think
anything's going to happen. But that's just my I'm sorry, that's just my
opinion. Hey, no problem. You know what's kind of funny Franklin Carter.
I don't know if you know him as a disclosure witness, but he's
out of Wyoming. He's running that some conferences out there for a little while.
But really great guy, a friend of mine, and he does a
talk called what about Them UFO's. He's from South Carolina. He could be
Andy Griffiths brother, but yeah, he's got that total same period of time.
But he talks about, you know, making sure that you have a
perspective about all of this, even with you know that even if disclosure happened,
or something. You know, they're not going to pay our bills.
We're still going to have to keep on living and keep going to work and
things like that. So yeah, yeah, you know, that's extremely well
put. The the fact that the aliens is of the government ounces the aliens
are here. That doesn't mean that the next day, some somehow we don't
have to do things and we can't go all the pieces. Otherwise, if
asiety as we know at civilization as we know it will crumble. And one
of the things I always like to think about is that if a person wants
to see what happens when another person is told that aliens are here, all
we have to do is look at abductees. And here we take the normal
abductee is living his or her life, not thinking about aliens or UFOs,
and suddenly they find out they're being abducted by alien beings. To make a
long story short, and to assume aliens are behind it, do they go
all to pieces. No. They may be traumatized and they're vastly upset,
but for the most part, they keep on trucking. They're going to the
jobs, and they get through life. They don't go running down the street
yelling at the top of their lungs. The aliens are here. The aliens
are here. They deal with it. M hm. And I think human
beings are human beings are quite resilient enough to accept that aliens might be here.
Yeah, it's interesting in fact that most of the people, and I
have seen people in this build who have kind of gotten so wrapped up in
it that they have lost their jobs or they kind of are not living in
reality anymore, which is of course that's the bad part. But most of
those people are not necessarily abduct these but people who kind of have the realization
of all that's going on and don't want to participate in normal society anymore,
which is the big danger. But you're right, you know, still not
going to pieces. Abductees are going to work every day and still seeing their
family and sudden they are raising their children, and exactly right. And when
I speak about most people, again, I'm not but there are always exceptions,
like like you noted, there there are always some people who can't take
the pressure, even if they're not have the peace and they they sort of
can't then deal with real But for the most part, people and endure this
just like they endured, the the endure the hideous things that wars present.
They they go through with their lives under the most adverse circumstances possible, and
I think humanity will will exhibit this resilience when, when, when, and
if the day comes, we all acknowledge that we're not alone here. Mm
hmm. And then a question from the chat room is h they wanted to
ask about the satellite that just went up I think yesterday. Is it called
Picarus, the one to look for again? They want to ask you about
that? Your thoughts on that satellite? Yeah, you know, I I'm
embarrassed to say I work on satellites at the at the Patent Office, and
I and I read Aviation Week in Space Technology, and I'm vastly interested in
the space program for decades now. But but I can't really tell you too
many, too much of the specifics about that particular satellite. H However,
Yeah, we are talking about these satellites much like this study program looking for
planets circling other stars. And I think it's a very commendable effort. And
we've already had three hundred planets. Are something a little more than three hundred
planets discovered? Around other planets. And I think that this will well again
further for further our efforts to really find out how many other planets there are
circling these stars. But what we're going to find out is that the planets
are not the exception. Probably planets circling stars are the rule, and they're
going to find that there's Earth type planets are probably a dime a dozen.
And this satellite is going to be one of the first satellites that starts to
reveal this truth to the world that again, earthlike planets are not an exception.
They're out there and there is a lot of them out there, and
here we are just starting on. This is the first step on that adventure
to find more planets. And the next thing we need to do is somehow
I'm a big proponent of, you know, let's go out there, by
God, let's build the starship and get out there to the stars and start
finding out what's beyond the Solar System. But you know, that's another interview.
You know, I think what's exciting of what we've seen over the last
few years, and NASA is always the slowest to get it. I mean,
it took them so long to admit to water on Mars, and I
think the Europeans were talking about it for a couple of years and their evidence
before NASA jumped on. But it is interesting to see, Okay, we've
got Drake's equation, Okay, we'll buy that. Then, you know,
but still there's no close planets that are Earth like. Then finally they start
looking into it, and they keep finding, you know, even though they're
skeptical and they say, no, this isn't going to happen, they keep
finding more and more of this stuff. They keep finding more planets that could
have harbor life. They're finding life can exist in more places than we thought
it could exist. And all of this is just piling up. So you're
right, it's exciting that. I agree with you. I think that's what
they're going to continue to find, that there are a lot more planets out
there similar to Earth than they expect. Yeah, and and and the study
project is is completely prepared to accept that. I suppose and the most most
study scientists say, of course there's life out there. I wouldn't doubt it
for a second, but that all the planets were discovering. But the funny
thing is they're willing to accept life on say, then they're a star which
is three or light years away or years away something. But I say,
well, the alien life of Earth, it becomes soups. It's as long
as it's a star. But to say it's happening on Earth, you're that's
let's let's new age, that's science. Somewhere in the Earth and the near
part there's a little life. Science becomes pseudo. It's at least in the
set scientist's view. And tell me that completely. That's a rubbish that the
the these scientists are circumstance having a lot of money and no evidence for uh
general life. Whereas you're starting to cut out a little bit. Okay,
I am talking on the phone, whereas the UFO already has no money and
evidence. No, are you still there? I sure, I am.
No, Okay, you're cutting out. So I didn't hear that your last
phrase. Yeah, I just said making a comparison between the SETI signs and
the UFO community study has a lot of money, the millions of dollars,
no evidence for all money. How they community have money, but an embarrassment
of it that in dealing with alien or non huge an ilony paradox true size
won't Oh you're really cutting up right now. I don't know the phone's losing
it. For Alexandro, it's losing its bars. Maybe the my cell phone
is wearing down. Oh okay, all right, well let's try. Let
me try with the next question. Let's see if it gets any better.
Hopefully. Well okay, good? Oh as a physicist, before I get
to another question from the chat room. As a physicist, you know,
another big argument from SETI is that it's not possible that they could travel from
there to hear. What do you think of that statement? To me,
it sounds kind of silly with all the ideas of travel faster than light that
have been talked about, even in Star Trek. But what are your thoughts?
Yeah, you're you're one hundred right again on a one. Anybody that
says it's be a dodge, it's like with the evidence, it seems to
be things visiting or is he I don't know what God here or not.
That's another question for science fall Why don't you deal with Why don't you deal
with the the evidence seems that we have jobjects here of non humans And whenever
someone says it'sistic because they can't hear from there, I don't want to deal
with and they've the fuddle scientis. Yeah, unfortunately we're losing about one out
of five words from you. So hopefully it'll it'll improve itself there a little
better. But that's definitely one of the topics that we will want to tackle
with the scientific Symposium because I know there are a lot of physicists out there
with concepts that we certainly could that there are theoretical ways of going faster,
oh doubt out and science fighters have been dealing subject for years. Can get
here. We just have the or the the we haven't yet at ourselves,
but we do it for no reason to think that the else couldn't do it.
M all right, So let's see another question from the chat room.
What do you think the immense sightings of UFO's point to what are they doing
and why? Yeah, that's a question I can't answer it. The immense
number of youth fightings. The immense number means that we opinion, we are
not it's not human intelligence. I don't want their motive operas. I don't
know here as a scientist of enough evidence he answer those questions. I can
specul but that's all like, yeah, so I think that, you know,
just like a lot of people calling in when are what they'll say,
And I love that kind of answer because that's what I like to give to
the media when they ask questions like that is you know, that's all speculation.
All we can do is gather the data and see what the data shows
us. And the data is showing us that they're are we're being visited by
these technologies that seem to be beyond ours and under intelligent control. Unfortunately,
we don't have enough data to give us motives or why they don't land on
the White House lander and things like that, right, And it goes back
to that thing we what a person because they're gonna do the UFO sub because
intelligent uh, any intelligence attact has of ours first. That's again a huge
of looking at things and I don't we're not dealing with too, we're dealing
with al and I don't know aliens behave you know? Right. So unfortunately
that was a question from Democratic Communists and uh, he says he can't accept
that answer, but sorry, here that's the answer we got for you,
my friend. Uh, another answer to give him. And I don't always
sound to be closed minded. Be there's hope. Yeah, you go and
and talk to of seeing UFO, and read relevant nurture on the cases,
read about the most case, and and and reader the quarrel and and read
about how our peopies various foo, and that's up your opinion. But then
people and any objective quickly come to my opinion that they can't exclude the evidence.
That's hope to it. Ope. Then he pointed out he can accept
that answer. Sorry, guy, I read it wrong. It was a
case of me reading what I expect to see rather than looking and reading what
it says. I apologize for that. It's an honest answer. So disclosure,
I wanted to kind of ask you about. You know, people throw
the word disclosure disclosure around a lot, and I think it's a much more
complicated thing than just hey, wu disclosure. You know, I think there's
a lot more to think about. Of course, if you asked Richard Dolan,
for example, he's got to talk to you a bad hours of what
disclosure means. But what is disclosure to you, well, especially to me,
would the government becoming clean on UFO holdings, whether it's humans, whether
it's isolent's toughly whether physical evidence and make a clean breath and come forward and
lead disclosure mean the government has no idea of what's going on. We have
and they some more cases of the disclosal that they may not be anymore answered,
and again predge the government shouldn't say, but but disclosure definitely coming out
with all formation they currently have under rooms. Mm hmm, you know what,
you're still breaking up cold? I have you? Maybe try hanging up
and calling back in real quick. Yeah, it'll take me. Let me
get a cell phone. Okay, okay, yeah, right back, Okay,
no problem, so he'll be right back. So yeah, I want
to apologize again to democratic communists on that, but I loved his answer because
I think that's the right way to go. We can't motives is so difficult,
and one of the things that especially with Moufon, that we try to
do is be careful about speculation. And that could be good and bad.
It could be good because if we give you a piece of information, it
means it's supported by some information, it's supported by evidence, or it's supported
by credible people, scientists or others who have looked in and given us this
information. The bad part is maybe not such a bad thing is that it's
not sensationalistic. So sometimes people get bored with us, Why can't you speculate
this, Why can't you put that together and speculate that, you know,
why can't you give us more answers? And get frustrated because we can't give
them answers. But then we would just be just that speculating and sensationalists.
And I think that's one of the problems with this field right now. Not
to get into names, but if we were to go out and say every
time an administration came in and say, look they're going to disclose. Look
they're going to disclose. Look they're going to disclose, I think that's calling
wolf crying wolf all of the time. And then we would have people get
disillusioned and not want to listen to us because we don't come through with what
we're talking about. But if we stick to the evidence and the data,
such as the Stephenville Report, where we got FAA radar reports that backed up,
you know, the claims of the witnesses, that's something we can back
up. That's what's something we have with professionals. Paul Robinson, I saw
you ask, didn't move on, just get backing from Robert Bigelow. Yeah,
you know, we just talked about that. Rob had mentioned it.
It's yeah, essentially it is backing. It's a kind of a partnership where
we keep them a prize of reports, kind of like Roger marsh does for
you all for free on his UFO Examiner, but we keep them a price
of reports and especially big ones, and then we go out and investigate cases
together. Of course, we don't have a lot of money, and he
does, so he's able to get us out there quicker, such as flying
people around and getting us better equipment, and then also getting some lab analysis
done when necessary. So that's kind of the nature of the Bigelow thing.
And I think we've got Rob back. Hello. Yeah, I've borrowed the
Virginia State Director's telephone, which is to say my wife right, great,
perfect. So one of the things that I've talked about, you know,
when we were while you were gone. Well, actually I want to ask
you last question. I think I asked you about disclosure. Yeah, okay,
I apologize again that that this my testimony. My my conversation is breaking
up there. I hope it's a little better, No problem, Okay.
The lung on the short of it is on disclosure is that I don't think
I can recreate what I just said. Uh. It's basically that the government
might not know any more about ultimately the UFO phenomenon than we do. And
they may have more cases eyewitness testimony, they might even have some wreckage,
but it's conceivable that they haven't figured it out either, so that disclosure might
be ultimately disappointing. When it comes, it might be just another question.
And so you know, it's ultimately all I think the government should release everything
it has, and whether that would happen or not, I have no idea.
Yeah, that's kind of the same note that Nick Pope had that he
was happy Britain was finally starting to release their information. He thinks that they're
just as confused as the rest of us, even though they have more and
better cases now that they're letting us in on. But kind of the same
type of perspective. Yeah, And I was struck today by a few speakers
at the INFO conference have said that all these other countries have released UFO their
UFO files. Canada now came forth, and I think it was Denmark and
England and France. But what I would say to them is, don't quite
sell the US short. The Project Glubook documents were released decades ago, and
we've gotten tens of thousands of ages via the Foyer requests. So the US
has released a lot of its files before a lot of these other countries.
But to be honest with you, neither the British, nor the French,
nor the Canadians, nor the Danish have released secret cases from their military pilots
or from their military personnel. So they really haven't done any better than the
US has over the years. They're just getting to the point rereached thirty years
ago. Gotcha. Yeah, and that's the point I've heard others make as
well. What do you think about the energy technology type of suppression that may
be happening related to UFO secrecy. Yeah, again, I'd take kind of
a pessimistic view on the energy stuff. I don't actually believe that this government
is worthholding any kind of quote magic unquote technology. I just do not believe
it's there. Otherwise I don't think we'd be spending tens of billions of dollars
on conventional more or less conventional aircraft and rocket technology. And uh, the
infrastructure in this country is built around patroleum energy and nuclear energy and now some
wind energy. But I just don't think that anything is being squelched that have
to do with say, anti matter or anti gravity or anything like that.
It's nice to think that, but it's it's not happening. Mm hmm,
okay. Interesting. So and then you also talked about earlier the stephen Bill
Report and how you significant you felt it was. What do you think is
so important about that report? Well, yeah, I think it's I think
it's vastly important. And there have been a few other UFO cases throughout history
where eyewitness testimony and radar technology, uh and radar returns excuse me, have
have corroborated one another. And that's what the Stephenville Report does. Well,
we have eyewitness testimony of people seeing objects at certain directions at certain times,
and lo and behold, when we get the the FAA tapes and analyze them,
by god, there's unknown objects in almost the same directions and at the
same time as some of these the good witnesses on January eighth, two thousand
and eight said there were objects. So we have a very definite one to
one correspondence with a little bit of room in there for people being vague about
directions, but generally unknown objects were flying around the Stephensville area on January eighth
at the same time as a US Airforce suggets were and an a wax point.
So again, what is going on there? Very very strange. What
do you think of James mcgaha. Did you see his response to that in
the Popular Mechanics. No, I can't say as I have. I've debated
mcgaha on the phone ones. I find the man to be I find the
man to be extremely devoid of any knowledge of the UFO subject. He just
I can't say as I read his report in Popular Science, so I'm not
going to characterize it. But based on what I heard of mcgaha on both
my interview, my debate with him, and TV programs, he knows nothing
about the real UFO phenomenon. He just throws the same canards out and in
the same falsehoods and pseudo science that all the Cellar debunkers do. They don't
want to get down to nuts and bolts because when you do, you can't
explain the phenomenon. Yeah, his response was very short. Actually, his
response was just that radar data isn't reliable. Well, that's that's that's such
a crock of bull hockey that then I can't believe it. If radar data
isn't reliable, and by god, we wouldn't be landing the hundreds and thousands
of aircraft the US airs and at airports all across the USA every day,
and that that that that's just just a dumb statement. Yeah, I thought
it was pretty funny. We use it for weapons systems, we use it
for air safety, but it's not a reliable technology. It's okay, it's
the last resort of a of a person who just doesn't want to admit and
say, I don't know, mm hmm. You know. I wanted to
ask you also about the UFO Research Coalition, how that started up and what
did they do well that that's an excellent question, Alejando. And and you
didn't like this answer. The UFO Research Coalition basically came about as a result
of Robert Bigelow. Now now the UFO Research Coalition is an association of new
fund, the Fund for UFO Research, and the Center for UFO Studies,
the three large organized groups in the United States and back in the nineties,
Robert Bigelow approached us new Fon and Defund and Kufolis and said he had some
money he wanted to spend on the subject, and he wanted us to get
together as an organization, as a formal organization, So we formed the UFO
Research Coalition, which has as its address my home address, but nonetheless we
have that organization in place, and we then received funding from Robert Bigelow back
in the nineteen nineties. So that's how that organization that that's the genesis of
the UFO Research Coalation. Yeah, someone at the earlier asked, and I
talked a little bit about it while you were off the line, but someone
in the chat had asked about Bigelow and with MUFON and what do you feel
Bigelow's interest is. Well, well, mister Bigelow has has a very sincere
interest in the UFO subject. I recall reading a paper he wrote once he
had some kind of a UFO experience, a fighting of some type. I
believe it was back in the nineteen fifties, and and that interest in UFOs
has never left him, just like all the rest of us who get involved
in this subject for life. So he really does want to know what's going
on with with the UFO subjects, and he's also interested in allied subjects like,
for example, cattle mutilations and after death survival, survival of the consciousness,
this type of thing. He has interests in sort of a range of
of of other phenomena in addition to UFOs. But I do believe it's genuine
and he wants to now use his money to try to see if he can
weasel out some secrets. Yeah, someone asked in the chat, the same
gentleman who asked before could Betty Paul Robinson asked about media exposure? Couldn't he
get some major media exposure? But it seems like throughout his years of being
involved with these fields, he doesn't seem to be too interested in media exposure,
but looking for a real data or information. Yeah, Robert bigelows,
And he isn't indus just for the attention he could probably get enough. He
gets enough attention with his big o' aerospace company as it is, probably,
but he's very averse to having photographs of him taken, or at least he
was back then, and he rarely rarely grants an interview to the press,
even on his space station projects, and the same applies to his UFO activities.
If there's going to be an interview with Robert Bigelow, it's going to
be only very rarely, and a lot of times he'll have the people that
are working for him, say at nid's callin kellaher or someone like that,
give a paper or speak to the press on his behalf. He's very reticent
to really get involved in the media. Mm hmmm. And you mentioned NIDS
and that's a good example with what the National instit of Discovery Science is that
he funded and all the work they did, they really didn't have a press
section where they got out to the press. They wrote some papers that got
out to people. The biggest media thing they had was George Knapp's book The
Skinwalker about the Skinwalker Ranch, which I definitely encourage anybody to check out who
hasn't, or you could actually go to move on dot com and order some
of his talks, his DVDs from symposiums in the past, George Knaptos,
which just incredible type of stuff. Yeah, you know, you're right there.
They released some information on their website when it's had a website, they
may still have one archived, but I highly recommend the Hunt for the Skinwalker
book, especially the last few chapters in that book are completely mind expanding and
really do offer some clues as to how humanity and how science might approach a
subject UFOs that's kind of seems to be a verse to too much publicity.
If you if you put too much instruments there, the subject vanishes. But
there's some clues in that book as to the next step for looking into this
subject, and I found it to be a very valuable read, let me
put it that way, m hm. And I think that's kind of what
my next topic was going to be, is next steps in looking into the
subjects. What do you see as the near future and this arena? Yeah,
that there's only only one there's only one course that I see, Alejandro,
and it's basically, we have got to get mainstream science involved in looking
into UFO reports and and and how one does that, I don't know,
but we I have some clues, but we have got to first show the
scientists like we did forty years ago, that we have an ongoing phenomenon and
people who are looking into things that happened in the nineteen fifties that's all well
and good, and I find it to be extremely interesting, but that doesn't
convince today's scientists. They want to know what happened yesterday in the UFO phenomenon.
So if we can get good cases to them and to show that something
puzzling is still happening, and somehow raise some money in the process that we
can then farm back into the scientific field, I think we'll start making strides
toward understanding this phenomenon because it's going to be the scientists, with their laboratories
and instruments and time, who are going to unravel this. Unfortunately, it's
not going to be you or me, or Bruce mcabey or John Schusler.
We're only the John the Baptists. You know, We're only the John the
Baptists. Hi gotch and I agree with that one hundred percent. You know
that really the scientists are who the media and the populace listens to. You
know, Convincing the populace can help convince others, but really, population isn't
going to be able to convence a major institution to open up some sort of
investigation. The scientists will. And I find that it does seem to be
more and more that scientists are interested. Oh well, I hope so.
I don't see a big trend in that area, and I don't see them
Washington jump into the water. But I think that that's what you found.
Part of our goal is to educate the public, and we have got to
get the word out there about these good cases. And that's all I can
say on that. You know, We've just got to get the word out
mm hmm. Yeah. And I'm trumpident if the scientists did get involved and
do some good research, and I think you are too, that they would
find something there. Yeah, well, that's no doubt true. We've got
to unravel and roll back forty years of ridicule into the subject, and that's
not going to be an easy thing to do. We have to unlearn them
in all these years that they've been going down the Content Committee road of there
being no scientific paydirt in UFOs. We have to get them to look anew
at the subject that there is indeed something going on here and it may not
give us an immediate paydirt on technology, but it will give us an insight
into what might be happening to us visa vis and other intelligence. Yeah,
do you hear kind of changing the subject a bit because there's a some more
chat in the chat room. And I'm sure this is something you face because
it's something you know. I think we all run across people who theorize that
the extraterrestrials are demons. Yes, I haven't counted that thought, that that
idea a lot. I think that I just cannot proceed along those lines.
Uh, demons is a is an aspect of religion, and and and religion
isn't science. It's I I'm a religious man, but but but in in
in in religion, it doesn't follow the rules of science. So almost anything
is possible. It's the supernatural. Almost anything is possible. So we we
we I don't think we can proceed at all if we have to assume that
it's that it's it's demons. We've got to assume that we're dealing with uh,
a culture, a technology that we can use science to understand. Demons
are beyond science, and we might as well just throw up our hands and
I'll go back to, you know, to doing other things we want to
do. Right Unfortunately, how how I feel about that? Mm hmm,
Okay, So what I was gonna say if we lose this, if we
lose the signal, uh, the the Virginia State Director is arding up for
Carnow WHI she's going to be driving off and I'm still on the telephone.
But so hope they just got tired of waiting. But no, nonetheless,
I apologize if my signalship break up as we're going through Baltimore. Well,
we're almost done. Tell that hasty Virginia State director give you a couple of
minutes. Yeah, she's she's tolerant about that. And I also, I
might say, also have another renowned UFO research in my car, Antonio Juneus.
So they're all here at this conference this weekend trying to unravel what's going
on with UFOs. Yeah, well great, you know, thanks for joining,
and thanks for taking some time in the middle of your conference too,
because I know those are a lot of work. There's a lot of a
lot of networking that's great to do, a lot of meeting and talking with
some friends or some people you admire and exchanging some wonderful ideas. So thanks
for taking time out to do that. What are some things that you're have
learning out there at the conference? Well, you know, I am at
the at the INFO conference, one learns a lot of things in addition to
UFOs. UH. The UFO talks came from Bud Hopkins who gave an overview
on the abduction of phenomenon, and the other UFO segment will come from on
myself tomorrow morning when I talk about Stephenville and and they have them New find
initiative with Robert Bigelow. So in the course of being an INFO one learns
about uh for for example, freemasonry or cryptozoology, this type thing, and
so yeah, I've learned some kind of interesting things in those areas. Mm
hmmm. Do you see some similarities with this phenomena and some of those others
that they talk about there? Yes, they sure do, especially in cryptos
zoology where we're talking about strange animals. UH. That that field is facing
the same kind of ridicule and they have the same kind of evidence, largely
anecdotal, that the UFO field has. So yeah, they face a lot
of the same issues, only they're not as well known. They even are
further back in the public education arena than we are, and we're not very
far ahead, right, I know, they really struggle in that arena,
But so likeily we get some attention, Yeah, we sure do, and
and that there are a bunch of mysteries out there. And it never fails
to remind me that there's the world is that there's more unknown than knowing things
in the world. We think we know a lot, but what we really
are just scratching the surface of what we know. Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately,
it becaves it's a good reason to keep pushing ahead. Yeah, I
agree. I think it's fortunately because things might get kind of bland if we
figure it all out. Yeah, I think it's gonna be a long time
before we do that, Alejandro. If ever, right, if that is
even what we're here to do, that's right, Democrats, democratic communists in
there is talking, well, everybody's talking a lot of philosophy in the chat
room, and that's kind of the The root of philosophy is knowledge and can
we even obtain knowledge? Yeah, yeah, you're one hundred percent right.
But we have a few tools to do that. And one of those tools
is the scientific method. And I keep coming back to that because it's going
to be the scientific method that really gives us answers, not speculation or endless
and endless philosophizing about the subject, but somebody ultimately has to put something on
a laboratory table or has to go out into the field and actually do some
physical work on samples. And this is what's going to give us and give
us our answers. They have to point antennae at the sky, and they
have to take spectrographic pictures of UFOs if and when they can. And I'm
hopeful, hopeful that if such an approach is followed, we will indeed find
out what's at least get few answers to what's going on. Yeah, and
I'm in complete agreeance. I mean, I'm a fan of philosophy, but
I'm a student of psychology for that same reason to put the scientific method to
some of these ideas to actually figure out much more about the nature of ourselves
and everything else around us. And that's why I wholeheartedly agree with the application
of the scientific method and if it's done in the manner it should be.
And not to say that the people who are trying to do it aren't doing
it well all of the time. It's just not having the resources. Yeah,
you're exactly right. You're exactly right. So that's exciting about the big
old thing, and hopefully we can get some of these major institutions involved in
putting their efforts towards it as well. Well, yeah, I don't think
the Big Old Thing is something we can count on for for a long time.
Maybe I hope we can count on it for at least a year.
But but but I hope it's going to be sort of something that does indeed
cause other institutions to get involved, to see that we can do good work
and that they will too come on board once once mister Bigelow gets the information
he needs and no longer really has need for any new cases, we've really
got to build on that. And this is this is a chance to get
in on the ground floor from U FOUND, to show that put us it's
money behind its mouth, as it were, that we can do good case
work, and that the UFO subject has some information you can glean once you
get out there in the field. Yeah, so everybody send us your report,
you know, if you're seeing something, especially if you see something land
or if you have some physical trace evidence from perhaps that's what I think is
going to be interesting. I've seen cases, you know, every people have
seen scoop marks. I've seen these scoop marks, fluoresce or other physical evidence
from from abduction cases and anything you have. Let us know. We're used
to dealing with abductees. We know how to keep you anonymous, we know
how to treat people with this issue. But we're pretty much out of time.
So thank you very much for being on the show. Rob always a
lot of fun talking to you. Oh Alejandro, it's been it's been just
a pleasure, and I wish we had three or four more hours, and
I hope you will ask me to be on again, but it's been a
complete enjoyment and there's better than doing this great. Well, then I will
have you on again. And for next week, I have certainly a very
interesting person at a new time. We're going to do Thursday at six pm
Mountain time instead of the normal Saturday time. I'm going to have Clifford Stone,
who is a Roswell resident who claims to have been part of an army
crew who recovered crashed UFOs, so we'll have them talk about that. And
he also does a lot of freedom of information request where he gets information on
official documents related to uf fos, so we'll talk a lot about that.
Everybody come back because I know people have a lot of questions for Clifford.
Those are some pretty extraordinary claims that he has, so it'll be really interesting
to see what he says. Sorry, Moe, don't worry. You'll be
able to listen later if you can't come in live. But thanks for being
here. We'll talk to everybody again and join me on UPHO not Radio tomorrow
night. On blog Talk, I'll be giving some more UFO updates. I
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