1 00:00:16,839 --> 00:00:20,359 We're back with another edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Dashinsky, 2 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:23,120 culture editor here at The Federalist. As always, you can email the show 3 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,960 at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on exit fdr LST. 4 00:00:27,199 --> 00:00:30,079 Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts, and of course to the 5 00:00:30,079 --> 00:00:34,439 premium version of our website as well. I'm coming to you today from sunny 6 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:39,200 springtime Charleston, South Carolina. We have a fascinating guest to get to Before 7 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,479 we do, though, I just want to say today's episode is sponsored by 8 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:47,640 our friends at the Center for Renewing America, and they're asking listeners of this 9 00:00:47,719 --> 00:00:52,119 podcast to actually help them stand by their colleague, Jeffrey Clark. Actually, 10 00:00:52,119 --> 00:00:57,280 you may have seen Jeff's name in the news. He's being persecuted for serving 11 00:00:57,359 --> 00:01:02,200 former President Donald Trump honorably as an assistant an Attorney General and for fighting for 12 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:06,879 the integrity of our elections back in twenty twenty so last year, Jeff was 13 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:11,319 indicted alongside President Trump and some others in Fulton County, Georgia, and then 14 00:01:11,359 --> 00:01:15,480 had his good name dragged through the mud. Now, though they're going one 15 00:01:15,519 --> 00:01:19,200 step further. They're trying to take away his ability to practice law and to 16 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:23,840 feed his family. The DC Bar recently put Jeff through a sham trial and 17 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:29,519 issued their first disciplinary ruling against him for his legal work in the twenty twenty 18 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:32,319 elections. So the good news is that Jeff refuses to back down and that 19 00:01:32,439 --> 00:01:36,000 russ Vote and his team are standing by him. But they need your help, 20 00:01:36,079 --> 00:01:41,200 so please visit stand by Jeff dot Com. That's stand by Jeff dot 21 00:01:41,239 --> 00:01:45,239 Com to help Jeff and the Center for Renewing America stand up to the woke 22 00:01:45,359 --> 00:01:49,040 mob. So thank you, guys to the Center for Renewing America for their 23 00:01:49,079 --> 00:01:56,040 sponsorship of today's episode. And now let's get on with the show. Today 24 00:01:56,079 --> 00:02:00,439 we are joined by Gabriel Nadalas. He is the national director of Our America. 25 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:04,879 He's also the author of the book Behind the Black Mask, My Time 26 00:02:04,959 --> 00:02:07,400 as an Antifa activist. So, as you can tell from just the title 27 00:02:07,439 --> 00:02:09,800 of that book, we have a lot to talk about. But Gabriel, 28 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:13,599 thank you for joining us. No, thank you for having me, of 29 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:15,319 course, No you are I think I saw this on your Twitter. Since 30 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:20,680 January you are now officially a United States citizen, am I right? That 31 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:23,919 is correct? I was very exciting. You know, it takes a long 32 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:28,080 time. Immigration is really really difficult. Let's not talk about immigration. That's 33 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,280 a separate thing, but it's just it's an ridiculously difficult system to navigate. 34 00:02:31,319 --> 00:02:36,800 But thankfully, after being in the country for some twenty years, like finally 35 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,360 a us S, I was just gonna say congratulations on that. It is 36 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:44,080 not an easy thing to do, so amazing, and that's a good place 37 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:46,520 to start. If you could just tell us, this is usually what we 38 00:02:46,599 --> 00:02:49,360 do when it's someone's first time in the show, a little bit of background 39 00:02:49,479 --> 00:02:52,439 about yourself and how you ended up where you are, Gabriel, that would 40 00:02:52,479 --> 00:02:54,520 be fantastic. So thin. So I was born in Mexico, right, 41 00:02:54,520 --> 00:03:00,199 that's on Mexico City, in a town called lash and you know it's it's 42 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:07,560 not the nicest place. I grew up in a town called Nasa, which 43 00:03:07,599 --> 00:03:09,919 is it's now wild, which Aztec language oorld. That's Messa for short. 44 00:03:10,599 --> 00:03:14,800 It's interesting if people have ever seen the movie Elysium, well, the remake 45 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:17,159 of Elysium, where it's a post apocalyptric Los Angeles and it's supposed to be 46 00:03:17,199 --> 00:03:20,759 like one hundred years from now. It's horrible you know all these things. 47 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:24,120 It was still in Messa, so it gives you a little sense of like 48 00:03:24,199 --> 00:03:30,159 how bad it is down there. Anyways, So I grew up there until 49 00:03:30,199 --> 00:03:32,319 I was about eight. It was not a good thing. But we came 50 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:38,439 to America and I grew up in California. In California, I you know, 51 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:40,039 I was a kid. What can much can I say? I was 52 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:43,719 eight years old. I was very like I at first, I was a 53 00:03:43,719 --> 00:03:46,159 little hesitant to be part of American culture. But I'll tell you this. 54 00:03:46,159 --> 00:03:51,000 This is in two thousand and two, so I was it was post nine 55 00:03:51,039 --> 00:03:53,159 to eleven, and I remember one of the first things that I did this 56 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:57,120 might be two thousand and three actually now or two thousand and four now, 57 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:02,599 I did a play in well, I was part of this play in what 58 00:04:02,639 --> 00:04:05,240 do they call it, like a school play kind of thing, and my 59 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:09,120 job was to be a firefighter and I was supposed to hold the flag of 60 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:14,199 like for the the firefighters of New York firefighters for nine to eleven stuff. 61 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:15,480 You know. I thought it was like kind of like an interesting thing because 62 00:04:15,519 --> 00:04:17,560 looking back, I was just you know, I was just doing it because 63 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:20,319 I was one of the kids that they picked to do hold the flag. 64 00:04:20,399 --> 00:04:24,480 That's really what it was, but like it kind of felt like a little 65 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:30,680 bit different, a little bit interesting because I wasn't thinking out about it much. 66 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:32,199 I was just slowly kind of becoming like what it means to be an 67 00:04:32,199 --> 00:04:34,279 American. I was called an American flag, I was an immigrant, all 68 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:41,639 these things. But I wasn't until like sixth grade that I actually started questioning 69 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:45,519 a lot of like politics. And one of the things that I remember was 70 00:04:46,879 --> 00:04:50,839 there was an immigration law which is actually very similar to Texas immigration law today, 71 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:57,959 which is, you know, making it illegal to make it up a 72 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:02,199 throw people in jail for being here illegally as supposed to just deporting them. 73 00:05:02,399 --> 00:05:05,399 But this law was federal, well, the propos law was federal. I 74 00:05:05,439 --> 00:05:10,560 remember that there was a lot of people saying that this was just anti immigrant, 75 00:05:10,639 --> 00:05:13,560 a lot of the same rhetoric that you see in it today. There 76 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:15,560 was very anti immigrant. That it wasn't just about the League immigration, that 77 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:18,360 that was about all immigrants, you know. And then that's when I started 78 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:23,399 to kind of feel a little bit ostracized aspect the flight that despite the fact 79 00:05:23,439 --> 00:05:26,879 that a couple of years before I was holding this American flag all of a 80 00:05:26,879 --> 00:05:29,360 sudden, I started feeling a little bit like, oh, like maybe America 81 00:05:29,399 --> 00:05:32,279 doesn't really care about me, and maybe it doesn't want me. And I 82 00:05:32,319 --> 00:05:38,199 started getting involved through there. I remember my first protest, this is when 83 00:05:38,199 --> 00:05:40,879 I was twelve years old, was in school. It was a middle school 84 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:44,800 protest. You know, we want walked around school yelling chance like cecip boy, 85 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:46,240 you know all these things. You know. I was really kind of 86 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:50,759 a follower at the time, but at the very least it kind of gave 87 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:55,000 me a sense of like getting involved in my community. That's the first thing 88 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:59,120 that I did. I started listening to a lot of my teachers. I 89 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:02,399 remember that in grade there was one of my biology teachers, who, ah, 90 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:09,079 gosh, he's he's bad because he would instead of teaching about biology, 91 00:06:09,079 --> 00:06:12,800 he would just start yelling at the top of his lungs and just telling us 92 00:06:12,879 --> 00:06:15,319 all how we were stupid if we believed in God, and you know, 93 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:18,639 the America sucks all these things. One time he said how his children weren't 94 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:23,000 stupid because he raised them to be atheists and you know, all of these 95 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:27,079 different things. So I was very much yeah, he seems very lovely, 96 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:30,199 right. I was actually very good friends with him because he transferred over to 97 00:06:30,199 --> 00:06:31,560 the high school and then we were like best friends later on. But you 98 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:34,800 know, now thinking back, I'm like, probably shouldn't be yelling about kids 99 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:39,920 about like whether they're religious, especially at the public school. Nonetheless, these 100 00:06:39,959 --> 00:06:44,000 are the types of teachers that I was encountering. The teachers that were pro 101 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:47,079 American, they didn't really speak about being pro American, which is a travesty, 102 00:06:47,439 --> 00:06:50,560 like people shouldn't be able to speak in favor of America. There's a 103 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:54,519 lot of teachers out there, but they just don't speak out in favor of 104 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:59,560 America, which is another conversation, which is actually why I'm part of our 105 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:02,519 America. But we'll talk a little bit about what I'm doing a little bit 106 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:11,360 down the road. So I became very much involved in different movements in my 107 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,959 community, you know. I in in two thousand and nine, I marched 108 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:19,040 with the teachers union because Governor Schwaschenega was trying to cut the police but none 109 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:26,160 of the education budget, as well as immigrant rights groups, all of these 110 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:29,560 different things, anti war protests, anti war fliers, I'm passing them out, 111 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:33,279 all all of this, and I did this for several years. But 112 00:07:33,319 --> 00:07:36,000 I started getting a little bit. You know, a teenager is like, 113 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:42,800 oh, nothing I'm doing is working. So I started to look for more 114 00:07:42,879 --> 00:07:46,160 things for me to get involved. And that's when there was a neo Nazi 115 00:07:46,199 --> 00:07:49,680 protest, and I mean actual Nazis. This is the NSM, the National 116 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:54,879 Socialist Movement. They showed up to claimont California in twenty eleven, and I 117 00:07:54,959 --> 00:07:57,800 decided to at hand just because I freaking hated that. I'm like, how 118 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:01,399 the hell are they here? So I went in and I dressed in all 119 00:08:01,439 --> 00:08:05,319 black, just like Antifa, does you know. And that's how I kind 120 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:09,720 of I got linked up with the local Antifa groups like in the area. 121 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:13,639 Now, I will be clear, the best way to understand Antifa is not 122 00:08:13,759 --> 00:08:16,360 as an organization but as a movement. But within that movement you have several 123 00:08:16,439 --> 00:08:20,680 different radical left wing groups and individuals. Some of them call themselves Antifa, 124 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:24,399 a lot of them don't. For example, the people who like I talked 125 00:08:24,399 --> 00:08:28,199 to that and that spot it was STAK It's called the Direct Action Claremont. 126 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,320 Later up, I was linked up with people from the anarchist Black Cross in 127 00:08:31,399 --> 00:08:33,879 Los Angeles, the Rost City Society. I mean, there's a lot of 128 00:08:33,879 --> 00:08:39,159 different organizations that I that I talked to, and you know, they would 129 00:08:39,159 --> 00:08:43,480 remind me to a lot of different things. I would go to Orange County 130 00:08:43,519 --> 00:08:46,240 for animal rights protests, would I would go to the Occupy protests. You 131 00:08:46,279 --> 00:08:50,679 know, A few of them weren't the black masks, the black block kind 132 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:52,120 of thing, but a lot of them weren't. A lot of them were 133 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:58,519 the traditional what you would consider activism per se, but there was a lot 134 00:08:58,519 --> 00:09:03,720 of those the black block kind of things that I did. I also attended 135 00:09:03,879 --> 00:09:07,200 a couple of different anarchist book fairs. One of them was in Los Angeles 136 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:09,879 and the other one was in Orange County. This is in twenty eleven. 137 00:09:09,879 --> 00:09:13,399 In twenty twelve, I remember, and you know, I was. I 138 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:20,159 It's kind of weird looking back because when I think about it, when I 139 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:22,879 was doing at the time, I was just doing what I thought was right. 140 00:09:24,159 --> 00:09:26,799 But it's only looking back then I realized, like, how many of 141 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:28,759 the mistakes that I was doing. It's like, it's not a good thing 142 00:09:28,759 --> 00:09:33,919 that I was attending some of these events. Yeah, yeah, and what 143 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:39,960 can what was Antiva's perception of itself at the time, Because I'm really eager 144 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:45,120 to get into you know, you wrote a wonderful essay at the fair website 145 00:09:45,159 --> 00:09:50,639 on substack. Well that I commend to everyone and I'm excited to talk about 146 00:09:50,639 --> 00:09:54,039 that. Sorry, Gabriel interrupted, what were You're perfectly fine. I will 147 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:58,120 say that it's actually very interesting the way that antifas perceived today as it was 148 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:03,240 back then, because there's a much greater emphasis of what antifa is and it 149 00:10:03,279 --> 00:10:07,039 is not back then because the vast majority of anti fascist activists, they didn't 150 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:11,720 necessarily think of themselves as like, I'm an ANTIFA activists. They right itself 151 00:10:11,799 --> 00:10:13,240 as an anarchist and like, yeah, I'm really curious, can you tell 152 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:16,720 us more about that, like how antifa saw and as a part of this 153 00:10:16,919 --> 00:10:20,519 movement, how did you see it? How did the people around you see 154 00:10:20,519 --> 00:10:24,919 it at the time. So obviously we marched under the banner of ANTIFHIV worldwide 155 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:28,200 because like there was actual so sometimes people would bring antifa flags and you know 156 00:10:28,399 --> 00:10:31,759 specifically that like the Klambom protests, somebody brought an anti flag, you know, 157 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:35,840 But more than anything, we saw ourselves as anarchists first. And this 158 00:10:35,919 --> 00:10:41,679 is actually very key important to the discussion because when you super important, yeah, 159 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:45,080 super, it's only been, and I think it has to do a 160 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,960 lot with like the way that Antifa has perceived nowadays, because they see it 161 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,080 as like, oh, the Antifa group or the Antifa no no, no, 162 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:54,559 no, Like a lot of these people aren't really beholden to it. 163 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:58,440 Even if you're part of say the anarchist Black Cross, or you're part of 164 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,919 the Deck, or you're part of the whatever group, even there, you're 165 00:11:01,919 --> 00:11:05,600 not necessarily a member of the group as opposed to. This is just the 166 00:11:05,639 --> 00:11:09,399 people that you talk to and that you surround yourself around yourself, you know, 167 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:13,960 like they could be you could be in and out in a moment's instance, 168 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,639 like if I were to go to I don't know, some sort of 169 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:18,399 anarchist protest right now, we're in Black Black No one knows me. I 170 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:24,840 am now like a part of this group as opposed or like this movement. 171 00:11:24,159 --> 00:11:28,240 So that's why I never call myself Antiva a member. There's articles out there 172 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,440 that say, like, oh, former ANTIFA member, I tried to correct 173 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:35,080 the one possible, But there's really no such thing as an Antifa member. 174 00:11:35,159 --> 00:11:37,440 There's Antifa activists, there's anarchists, you know. That's that's how I always 175 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:45,840 saw myself I was an artist anyways, So the perception of I will say, 176 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:50,720 though it has changed even long before. If people want a quick history 177 00:11:50,799 --> 00:11:54,679 about what antifa is, Antifa started sometime in the nineteen twenties, late nineteen 178 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:58,600 twenties, and that was like in pre Nazi Germany, actually in Nazi Germany, 179 00:12:00,279 --> 00:12:05,279 and then they basically fizzled out from in post World War Two. There 180 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:11,519 was a lot of anarchist groups out there all throughout history, but the modern 181 00:12:11,519 --> 00:12:15,480 antifa I really start sometime in the nineteen eighties, both in America and the 182 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:18,960 UK. So they used to America used to call themselves the Anti Racist Action, 183 00:12:20,279 --> 00:12:28,200 and they typically were around touring with anarchist groups as well as with anarcho 184 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:33,159 punk movements. So this is a music movement, and they would go around 185 00:12:33,279 --> 00:12:35,519 city to city and they would beat up neo Nazis or skinheads and stuff. 186 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:41,519 And that's the origins the origins of like the modern antifa movement. Sometime in 187 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:46,159 the nineteen I think as nineteen ninety nine, the WTO protests, that's when 188 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:52,679 that line was beginning to be blurred. It wasn't just like the Anti Racist 189 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:56,679 Action and like you know, and other anarchist groups everybody kind of started marching 190 00:12:56,759 --> 00:12:58,919 within solarity. It didn't matter that you were an anarchist, a socialist, 191 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:05,639 a communist, an eco anarchists, and animal rights activist, whatever it might 192 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:09,840 be. Everybody kind of started falling under this banner of like radical left wing 193 00:13:09,879 --> 00:13:13,960 activism. And it's something that we very much see today. In two thousand 194 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:16,639 and seven or is it six, because thousand and seven, it was actually 195 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:24,039 the first anti fuck collective in America, which is Real City Antifa. It's 196 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:30,240 portally Antifa. It's the oldest and the longest one that is actually active today. 197 00:13:30,519 --> 00:13:33,360 Now this one, I know, I just said that the vast majority 198 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:35,840 of people see themselves as activist, individual activist and stuff, but this was 199 00:13:35,879 --> 00:13:39,679 an actual worup. This one has memberships. They I'm sure they don't keep 200 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:43,200 anything written down, you know, membership list all that, but they have 201 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,240 official memberships. They don't have leaders, but they do have key people that 202 00:13:46,279 --> 00:13:50,120 they like to kind of, you know, everybody has a role in this 203 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:58,799 organization. And that chapter though, used to call themselves Anti Racist Action, 204 00:13:58,879 --> 00:14:01,279 and then in two thousand and seven they changed their name to Antifa to I 205 00:14:01,279 --> 00:14:05,639 believe they made a Facebook post or a Twitter Post at some point a couple 206 00:14:05,639 --> 00:14:07,840 of years ago, saying that the reason they changed their name to antifa is 207 00:14:07,879 --> 00:14:13,120 to show that there was more things out there that they wanted to fight it 208 00:14:13,279 --> 00:14:20,200 against than just racism, because racism pretty much silos you into this very specific 209 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:24,360 conversation. Meanwhile, fascism, well you can claim democracy's fascists, you can 210 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:28,440 claim by it and then trump that capitalism is fascist, all of these different 211 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:33,279 things, and that's kind of what they wanted to do. In twenty eleven, 212 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:37,000 when I was involved, it was very much still part of this anarchompunk 213 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:41,559 movement, because that's really where a lot of people were. But ever since 214 00:14:41,559 --> 00:14:46,879 twenty eleven twenty fifteen, you actually saw a breakaway from that. Many of 215 00:14:46,879 --> 00:14:52,240 the Antifa activists nowadays have no freaking clue that it was once connected to a 216 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:58,559 music movement. Don't ever let anyone tell you that having a national debt isn't 217 00:14:58,559 --> 00:15:03,480 a problem. The Watchdout on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day 218 00:15:03,559 --> 00:15:07,440 Chris helps unpack the connection between politics and the economy and how it affects your 219 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:11,399 wallet. What portion of your dollar that you sent to Uncle Sam is just 220 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:16,039 paying down our national debt? Forty percent, forty cents of every dollar is 221 00:15:16,159 --> 00:15:18,440 just interest on our spending. Whether it's happening in DC or down on Wall 222 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:22,480 Street, it's affecting you financially. Be informed. Check out the Watchdot on 223 00:15:22,559 --> 00:15:26,200 Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your 224 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:33,120 podcasts. Okay, so again, yeah, it actually used to be so 225 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:37,879 much cooler. This is just so much more compelling way to be an anti 226 00:15:37,919 --> 00:15:43,600 fascist. But that is all I think, so critical and such helpful information 227 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:48,600 because when I've covered Antifa, when I've covered riots, it's actually as exactly 228 00:15:48,639 --> 00:15:52,039 as you said, been this mosaic of different local groups and a lot of 229 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:56,679 cases like local BLM chapters. Now I'm thinking back in twenty twenty what happened 230 00:15:58,559 --> 00:16:04,240 and what was important to understanding it is that the banner of anti fascism wasn't 231 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:11,200 necessarily the ideological animation for everybody who was there. So when you're conservative and 232 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:19,639 reacting to these somewhat fascist techniques of protesting, like for example, journalists getting 233 00:16:19,679 --> 00:16:23,960 their heads, you know, hit with bricks while they're trying to cover a 234 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:30,320 riot, that's somewhat of a fascist approach. There's this weird tension between what 235 00:16:30,399 --> 00:16:34,919 they actually believe what they're doing, and maybe Gabriel you can talk us through 236 00:16:34,919 --> 00:16:41,039 a little bit, how again you saw this, what was anti fascism to 237 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:44,559 you? What is it to people who are part of the movement now? 238 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,480 Sure? And I mean one of the things that they do is it's very 239 00:16:48,519 --> 00:16:51,840 important is that many of them to this, they do not like to call 240 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,799 themselves antifa, like they really don't. You'll see the flag randomlyansuff but they'll 241 00:16:55,879 --> 00:17:00,639 always have an individual or not always, but often have an individual life's name. 242 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:06,559 As I mentioned Deck Direct Action Planmont you have what are the one six 243 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:11,400 one, which is a FA the letters in the alphabet where they anti fascist 244 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:15,720 action, you'll have the s F one six one or Bay Area one six 245 00:17:15,799 --> 00:17:18,519 one which is a Bay Area anti face fascist action. You know Las crucis 246 00:17:18,599 --> 00:17:25,839 United Against Against Racism. All of these different names, and when you go 247 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:30,799 to some of these bigger protests, you'll have a lot of different factions within 248 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:34,359 there. And again you're kind of like this it's almost like a mob mentality, 249 00:17:34,519 --> 00:17:38,920 not quite, but there is kind of a group think to the whole 250 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:45,400 thing. There is no really which actually it can be a lot more dangerous. 251 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:47,920 And one of the problems is that a lot of journalists, a lot 252 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:53,319 of like politicians, they try to put anti fid like the anti Antifa movement 253 00:17:53,319 --> 00:17:56,160 into what they know, which is like an organization, you know, like 254 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:59,359 it's like, oh, it must be an organization. You know. They 255 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:04,960 try to think of like say the students or Democratic Society from the nineteen six 256 00:18:06,079 --> 00:18:10,279 Is that what that said for that's correct name? Yeah. Yeah, they 257 00:18:10,279 --> 00:18:12,880 started putting it and you know that that was an organization. It had Bill 258 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:18,359 Ayers was one of the leaders. You know that he was commanding, like 259 00:18:18,519 --> 00:18:21,599 telling people what to do. They were bombing buildings. That's not really the 260 00:18:21,599 --> 00:18:26,079 way antifa is. One of the better ways or the way to compare in 261 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:30,960 tifa is to tow in cells, not in cults what do they call it 262 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:34,359 to like the Taliban for example, if you go to the Taliban, sure 263 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:38,519 there is like a Taliban group, but you also have a lot of the 264 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:45,160 different like radical like Islamist groups that believe in the Jahad, but they don't 265 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:52,759 necessarily are part of the same organization. Instead, you have different movements all 266 00:18:52,799 --> 00:18:56,240 pointing to the Jahad. And here you have all these Antifa groups all pointing 267 00:18:56,279 --> 00:19:02,200 to like Antifa. But if you look within like like say anywhere in like 268 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:04,759 Afghanistan or some of the where these groups are, there's a lot of infighting. 269 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,480 Well, there's also a lot of infighting with Antifa groups. If you 270 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:11,000 look at the Portland anti fascists, for example, there are a bunch of 271 00:19:11,079 --> 00:19:12,920 anarchists. If you look at the Austin anti fascists, there are a bunch 272 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:17,240 of communists. If you go on their websites, they're very critical of the 273 00:19:17,279 --> 00:19:19,039 anarchists and they very much say like, no, like you know, the 274 00:19:19,079 --> 00:19:22,200 anarchists had it wrong, like Mao is correct, this is how we should 275 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:27,440 be organizing. I mean, it's amazing, Yeah, it's amazing. It's 276 00:19:29,079 --> 00:19:34,720 the Some of these splits are as old as communism itself. Here Trotsky ide, 277 00:19:34,759 --> 00:19:40,000 you're a Marxist or your it's like its own little world, and you 278 00:19:40,079 --> 00:19:44,200 got to be part of it. Gabriel, It's not something I'm necessarily proud 279 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:48,279 about. But you know, I was a kid. Well what did you 280 00:19:48,319 --> 00:19:52,559 see? I mean, so from your perspective again, what was it that 281 00:19:52,799 --> 00:19:56,519 you know? What was your motivating ideology? Why did you keep showing up? 282 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:03,200 Was it to oppose what I think people can make a reasonable argument is 283 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:07,119 you know, things like wto you can you know, I might disagree with 284 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:10,519 the argument, but you can sort of build an argument out that it's reflective, 285 00:20:10,599 --> 00:20:12,799 especially in the days of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, that there is 286 00:20:12,839 --> 00:20:18,400 something here that is fascistic, that there's something that to that. But you 287 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:23,759 know, opposing the sixteen nineteen project or tearing down abolition statues, things that 288 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,519 you know Antifa or at least Antifa adjacent groups did in twenty twenty, it 289 00:20:27,599 --> 00:20:30,480 gets it gets more muddled. So for you, what was it? So 290 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:33,519 there was a couple of different things that really motivated me. I was vegan 291 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:37,960 for quite a while around this time. You know, animal rights were always 292 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:41,279 very important and to this day, like I think that it's really important to 293 00:20:41,319 --> 00:20:45,640 take care of animals. I think that that's why I did some of my 294 00:20:45,759 --> 00:20:48,799 animal rights activism through through some of these radical groups. I remember there was 295 00:20:48,839 --> 00:20:53,119 one time that we went to the home of a CEO started harassing him just 296 00:20:53,160 --> 00:21:00,000 because his company supposedly had a contract with some French company to to flying monkeys 297 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:06,279 into America to conduct baby sections. Now, baby sections are what's called when 298 00:21:06,319 --> 00:21:10,240 you have it's basically like a dissection, but it's it's alive, you know, 299 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:15,200 and it's horrible, horrible, But nonetheless, the our response to that 300 00:21:15,319 --> 00:21:19,279 was to harass the CEO of this company and his family. Now that's not 301 00:21:19,519 --> 00:21:22,640 that's not free speech. That's not And this is in this private residence. 302 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:26,279 It's not even like a pubk square or like you know, on like the 303 00:21:26,599 --> 00:21:30,599 unlike the street, like by the corporate offices or anything that this this guy's 304 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,599 this guy was just like we actually went through three of his homes. One 305 00:21:33,599 --> 00:21:37,799 of them was like near the pier, one of them was in sam Pedro, 306 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:41,279 I believe, and the other one was like an Orange County you know. 307 00:21:41,319 --> 00:21:45,039 That's kind of the type of activism been in. So emmal rights were 308 00:21:45,039 --> 00:21:48,599 a big thing for me, and the continued to be with me important to 309 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,440 me. Another thing that I used to really care about and I still do, 310 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:53,640 is the idea of like banks. And that's why I was part of 311 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:57,720 the Occupy protests. You know, I think that banks, I believe. 312 00:21:59,319 --> 00:22:02,400 Sometimes I have to separate myself from it, like from the way I speak, 313 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:07,440 because I still don't like banks. I still don't like but the reasons 314 00:22:07,519 --> 00:22:11,160 for why I don't like the centralized bank are now different. Back then, 315 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:15,400 the reason I didn't like banks was because I thought that it was the capitalists 316 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:19,799 who were controlling like the economy, and that they they they were they were 317 00:22:19,839 --> 00:22:26,640 trying to you know, it was corporate greed. They wanted more for themselves. 318 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:30,680 They didn't care about who they heard. But now what I believe the 319 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:32,799 reason I don't like banks, well, I don't like central planning. I 320 00:22:32,839 --> 00:22:34,480 don't like giving the government, like the Federal Reserve, any money, and 321 00:22:34,519 --> 00:22:37,880 like you know, they control the money supply and all these different things. 322 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,680 It's a completely different like way of looking at it. But still I don't 323 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:48,160 like banks. It's fair, I'd argue with that. Now for you and 324 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:52,200 you write about this again in the Fair essay it's called from Antifa to free 325 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:56,920 speech Advocate. That's at Fair for All dot org. You talk about what 326 00:22:57,039 --> 00:23:00,319 started to draw you away from the movement. And you know, one kind 327 00:23:00,319 --> 00:23:03,880 of phrase that stuck out to me when I was reading your story is bleeding 328 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,880 heart. You know that describes you know, you talk about your dad, 329 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:12,680 you talk about animal rights. You are somebody who you know, you your 330 00:23:12,759 --> 00:23:17,559 life's purpose. You want it to be kind of centered around as you write, 331 00:23:17,559 --> 00:23:22,680 helping others, and it's easy to see how people get caught up in, 332 00:23:22,039 --> 00:23:30,160 you know, radical movements in such a complicated and like tragic world, 333 00:23:30,519 --> 00:23:33,480 especially now that it's all on display for us with social media every hour of 334 00:23:33,519 --> 00:23:37,960 every day. But what for you was it that started to draw you back 335 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:42,440 and actually towards free speech, which you might think the anti fascists are interested 336 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:47,480 in free speech, but smart I mean, as you mentioned, I've always 337 00:23:47,519 --> 00:23:51,279 wanted to help people I don't like. It's only looking back now that I 338 00:23:51,279 --> 00:23:55,640 can say that it's one of the reasons why I care so much is as 339 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:59,279 people will read in that essay they have the opportunity, is the fact that 340 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:03,640 likes my you know, like he's always like. It's one of those things 341 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,200 that you don't realize how easy it is to become your parents, you know. 342 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:11,079 And I think my dad's great, and I want to be more like 343 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:15,680 him, especially although I do have to temper myself because like to be more 344 00:24:15,759 --> 00:24:18,359 like him, I also need to be more like my mom. Which people 345 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,440 will read a little bit of that article, they'll understand what I'm trying to 346 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:26,519 say. But what started to change, You know, a lot of people 347 00:24:26,559 --> 00:24:29,519 think that it was like a one night overthink like, you know, I 348 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,920 just like I got red piled or something. I've always hated that term because 349 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,880 I don't think that people. I don't think it's a productive term, because 350 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:41,559 it's everything is more complex than just like opening your eyes. That being said, 351 00:24:41,839 --> 00:24:45,720 sometimes very often there is a catalyst for you wanting to be open minded 352 00:24:45,759 --> 00:24:49,960 about about these things. So there's always two things that I point to. 353 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:52,279 One of them I wrote in that article, and I'll tell you the other 354 00:24:52,319 --> 00:24:59,759 one that's a little bit more grotesque, and I got it, Okay, 355 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,519 I'll tell you about it, but I have to pay a warning for people. 356 00:25:02,559 --> 00:25:07,000 It's what I mean, grotesque really is grotesque. So I was talking. 357 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:12,079 I started learning about some really interesting figures like Milton Friedman and Thomas Soul 358 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,839 and you know, I really like I didn't like their ideas at the time, 359 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,039 but I found them interesting enough that I wanted to talk with my friends 360 00:25:19,039 --> 00:25:25,119 about these ideas. And one of my friends call me a capitalist pig for 361 00:25:25,759 --> 00:25:30,559 bringing them up, and that made me take pause because I literally was just 362 00:25:30,759 --> 00:25:32,440 asking, like, what do you guys think, Like, you know, 363 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:37,559 what are some of these things? How do we really respond to this and 364 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:41,799 the fact that they called me a or he called me a capitalist pig made 365 00:25:41,839 --> 00:25:45,079 me want to learn more. And one of the things that I've actually found, 366 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:49,319 and I found a psychological term for it not long ago, it's called 367 00:25:49,319 --> 00:25:53,599 the backfire effect. When you try to force people into not looking at something 368 00:25:55,039 --> 00:25:56,839 you are going to for, you are going to make them want to look 369 00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:03,720 for it even harder. So that's what happened. And in college I started 370 00:26:03,559 --> 00:26:07,119 at this point, I was starting college, and I started learning more about 371 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:08,599 the free market, just because I'm like, Okay, why don't they want 372 00:26:08,839 --> 00:26:11,960 me to hear about this, Why don't they want me to listen to it? 373 00:26:11,039 --> 00:26:12,960 Like, let's see what they have to say. I mean, a 374 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:18,319 lot of conservative libertarian friends in college, you know, I found them and 375 00:26:18,079 --> 00:26:22,880 they were not the people who I thought they were or who I was told. 376 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,960 They were people who believed in the pre market, people who believed in 377 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:30,200 capitalism, and they were just regular people. They weren't these gritty, greedy 378 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:37,559 like bankers who cared about nothing. And that really made me realize that there 379 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,240 was a lie being told among a lot of antifa activists that were trying to 380 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:45,519 humanize a lot of these people but they're just regular people just like us. 381 00:26:45,559 --> 00:26:49,599 They just have a different opinion, and so there's that's kind of what started 382 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:56,559 driving me towards the free speech around. I will tell you though, I 383 00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:00,640 the last time I saw them, they invited me to a gig. As 384 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:04,039 I mentioned and TIFA at the time, and even before then, it was 385 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,119 very much in common with like the music mop and the anal punk movement, 386 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:11,480 the cross punk movement and all that. So then invited me to this show 387 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,640 and I saw a lot of my friends. There was a lot of them 388 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,920 actually, and off the corner, in the peak corner, you know, 389 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,559 in the backyard gig, you actually had this couple who were was having they 390 00:27:22,559 --> 00:27:26,240 were having sex, they were having an intercourse. They were just like all 391 00:27:26,319 --> 00:27:30,680 blown out, like just doing doing their businesses. You know, this is 392 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,119 not surprising, but yeah, you know, and like at the time, 393 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:37,039 I remember thinking, oh, that's gross, but okay, you know, 394 00:27:37,319 --> 00:27:41,880 unsurprisingly it's not the first time that that had happened, but it was happening, 395 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,640 so okay. There's a lot of people snickering and just talking about it. 396 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,680 And then one of the owners of the house, who happened to be 397 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:53,960 a gang affiliated fellow like he went up to them and started like he kicked 398 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,039 them from behind and stuff, and I was like, to me, I 399 00:27:56,079 --> 00:27:59,480 was thinking, like, oh yeah, like, what the hell do you 400 00:27:59,519 --> 00:28:03,240 expect? You were literally having sex in somebody else's home, like in public, 401 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:08,759 okay. And then I saw one of my friends run up to the 402 00:28:10,039 --> 00:28:12,160 situation. You know, he's kind of he tried to be a pacifist, 403 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,720 you know, trying to like, okay, let's let's try to calm down. 404 00:28:15,079 --> 00:28:18,920 And I'm just thinking, this guy doesn't know who these owners are, 405 00:28:18,079 --> 00:28:22,000 Like, these are guys. He's about to get his he's gonna get beat 406 00:28:22,079 --> 00:28:23,160 up. So went up to him. I pulled him by backpack and I 407 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,400 told him, dude, you need to not get involved. You didn't see 408 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,359 what happened. We need to get out of here right now. And then 409 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,759 I looked over and the couple having sex, well, they were my friends. 410 00:28:33,079 --> 00:28:37,519 So that's when I knew that I was somehow involved, even though I 411 00:28:37,519 --> 00:28:41,720 didn't want to be involved. So spare people in the details. If they 412 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:49,359 want to know more, they can buy my book. But the point being 413 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:53,799 is we got into this huge fight where there was multiple different The gang unit 414 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:57,599 was called the Canine Unit, was called. We had a helicopter circling around 415 00:28:59,039 --> 00:29:02,359 and I I was beat up. There was a lot of my friends beat 416 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:06,079 up. And then I made me realize, who the hell am I hanging 417 00:29:06,079 --> 00:29:11,039 out with. I don't want to be around these people. And that's when 418 00:29:11,079 --> 00:29:15,200 I realized I needed cut ties. And this is not even an ideological tie, 419 00:29:15,279 --> 00:29:18,160 because to an extent, I still very much believed in a lot of 420 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:22,160 the same things. But it was just made me realize that I needed to 421 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:26,640 have a clean break from this. Otherwise I was not gonna it was not 422 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:36,440 gonna go well with me. That's absolutely fascinating. Did it result in sort 423 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,799 of downstream ideological shifts in your thinking? I mean, it sounds like your 424 00:29:40,839 --> 00:29:45,640 core thinking has remained the same, But did it change the way that you 425 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:51,920 looked at the world and sort of maybe other aspects? You know, as 426 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,799 you mentioned, my core beliefs are still very much the same. I still 427 00:29:55,799 --> 00:29:59,319 love animals. I mean, I still love people, and I still hate 428 00:29:59,319 --> 00:30:07,200 the government to this day. And that said, the way that I mean, 429 00:30:07,839 --> 00:30:11,359 it's just an experience. You know, everybody goes to different experiences, 430 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:15,119 and that's just happens to be mine. It happens to be a little bit 431 00:30:15,119 --> 00:30:18,480 more exciting than others and stuff, but I think that it has a lot 432 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:22,799 of the same key elements to any other experience. Like you meet people throughout 433 00:30:22,799 --> 00:30:26,160 your life as you grow up and that are not good people, and you 434 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:30,519 want to get away from them if you Fortunately, you realize soon enough that 435 00:30:30,799 --> 00:30:33,440 they're not the people that you should be hanging out around. You know, 436 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,960 take away like the Antifa on the politicalness of like my story, and you 437 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,680 can have the same conversation about somebody a drug addict. You know, it 438 00:30:41,799 --> 00:30:45,480 just happens to be my storehouse, but happens to be on the happens to 439 00:30:45,519 --> 00:30:52,680 deal with politics and with activism. Yeah, and you know we're recording this 440 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,799 on the day. There's been some, let's say, to put it mildly 441 00:30:55,920 --> 00:31:03,000 civil disobedience on college campuses from some folks that are crossing where what I would 442 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,240 say is a line from free speech. I think a lot of the free 443 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,640 speech that's exercised here have been you know, in disagreement with, but it's 444 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:14,000 been perfectly fine. In other cases there's been some some line crossing. But 445 00:31:14,519 --> 00:31:21,920 I bring that up Gabriel too, to ask what the New York Posts, 446 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,440 for example, wrote a story about the affluent backgrounds of a lot of the 447 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:30,119 people that are involved in these protests. Yeah. I always hear that story 448 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:36,480 and tell us more. Yeah, but there's there's two stereotypes of an Antifa 449 00:31:36,519 --> 00:31:40,319 activist that I've always hated. And this happens to be a lot with conservatives. 450 00:31:40,359 --> 00:31:44,359 And it sucks because when you pink like Antifa in this light, all 451 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:48,920 of a sudden, you lose credibility. The reason whenever they look at the 452 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,440 Antifa activists or rested in Portland, the reason they're like, oh, they're 453 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:55,079 all white Orland is like ninety percent white. Go to what do you want 454 00:31:55,079 --> 00:31:57,240 them to do? Well, yeah, like it's just go to La and 455 00:31:57,279 --> 00:32:00,839 go to like Georgia. Look at the act like, you know, I'm 456 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:02,839 brown, Like the people around me in Los Angeles were brown. Like it 457 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:07,240 just kind of reflects the demographic of the city in which they're operating. It 458 00:32:07,319 --> 00:32:08,960 is not necessarily because like, oh they're white as far as them where I 459 00:32:09,079 --> 00:32:13,759 like being affluent. There is a little bit of truth to that, but 460 00:32:13,799 --> 00:32:17,319 it's overblown. The fact is is that when I mean I grew up poor, 461 00:32:17,599 --> 00:32:20,759 like I grew up with like a little money and stuff, like I 462 00:32:20,839 --> 00:32:24,319 used to tape duck my shoes because like I couldn't afford to buy some you 463 00:32:24,319 --> 00:32:28,480 know, I remember, And this sucks because when I turned nineteen and I 464 00:32:28,519 --> 00:32:30,359 didn't want to rely on my parents, I had a toothache and I knew 465 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:32,839 I needed to go to dentist and I knew I needed antbiotics, and I 466 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:37,240 didn't know how to get them. I didn't know what the hell to do. 467 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,279 And that sucks, It really really sucks. And that's a whole other 468 00:32:39,319 --> 00:32:46,680 conversation about that. But at the same time, the thing I can tell 469 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:52,000 you, though, is that there's a lot of people from different socio economic 470 00:32:52,079 --> 00:32:55,759 status in the anti fascist movement. One of the reasons why you've seen more 471 00:32:55,799 --> 00:33:00,799 of like the affluent backgrounds is because it's been info trading into college campuses nowadays, 472 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:05,839 and you have a huge movement every since, like the early to mid 473 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,039 two and twenty and tents, when you have a lot of college students who 474 00:33:09,319 --> 00:33:13,880 are listening to the type of music or they're being involved there, they're being 475 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,160 indoctrinated or like I was with my with my middle school teachers, in my 476 00:33:17,319 --> 00:33:22,599 in my high school teachers, but with college professors now who can afford to 477 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:27,359 go to ASU, to use CLA, to Stanford, to some of these 478 00:33:27,359 --> 00:33:30,279 colleges. Well, you know, they tend to be people who would not 479 00:33:30,319 --> 00:33:35,039 necessarily have money because there's a lot of student aate, but they're not necessarily 480 00:33:35,079 --> 00:33:40,279 people who can, you know, who can. They don't have as much 481 00:33:40,319 --> 00:33:44,400 money as like they have more money than your average person, like who at 482 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:45,960 the time. I mean, I went to community college like starting off, 483 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:51,039 you know, that's all I could afford, and I worked so hard to 484 00:33:51,079 --> 00:33:59,200 afford that. That's again, that's a different conversation. But whenever you hear 485 00:33:59,319 --> 00:34:01,759 conservatives say they're just white, they're just rich, it's just you lose credibility 486 00:34:01,799 --> 00:34:07,039 because the vast majority of people who are in the anti fascist movement or who 487 00:34:07,039 --> 00:34:09,840 are radicalized, they understand that it's a lot of them are not. And 488 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:17,280 you kind of you when you paint with such broad brushes, you basically exclude 489 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:22,280 people like they don't you know, you make them feel like they don't Why 490 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,159 should I listen to them? They don't even know what the hell like my 491 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:30,800 experiences is, my experiences are. Yeah, I was really eager to hear 492 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:35,679 your thoughts on that, because it does get brought up all of the time, 493 00:34:36,039 --> 00:34:39,119 and you know, there's I'm sure that it's it is true for a 494 00:34:39,159 --> 00:34:44,760 percentage of the population. As you say, now, I want to ask 495 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:50,280 you sort of addressed there, what misconceptions the right might have about Antifa. 496 00:34:51,119 --> 00:34:55,199 I also wanted to ask what misconceptions the left might have about Antifa when you 497 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:59,920 know there has been a concerted effort at least there wasn't twenty twenty to kind 498 00:34:59,920 --> 00:35:04,719 of downplay Antifa. Although lots of people were killed in those riots. Every 499 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,119 time I look at the number, I'm actually always surprised by it how many 500 00:35:07,119 --> 00:35:12,199 it is. A there's a few different lines. So first of all, 501 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,360 from the left, it is so frustrating to hear that Antipa has never killed 502 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:21,440 anybody. In my book ided to multiple different like antifa groups throughout history that 503 00:35:21,599 --> 00:35:25,559 killed people as well as in modern history with American history. But not only 504 00:35:25,599 --> 00:35:30,360 that. But I always hate how specific they are because when they say and 505 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:34,199 Antifa has never killed anybody, but then they go, but the extremest right, 506 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,559 and then they say the neo Nazis, they point to all these like 507 00:35:37,599 --> 00:35:42,239 different groups. Well, when you're looking at left wing radicalism, you have 508 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,480 to go beyond Antifa, because they are not the only left wing group. 509 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:50,800 There is multiple different radical left wing groups that have killed people like you. 510 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:52,440 Literally, if you want to, if you want to play the game that 511 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:54,960 the rights killed as many people, which is, you know, this whole 512 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:59,239 conversation, well, let's go and talk about like the Bolsheviks, Let's go 513 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,239 and talk about like the Communists, all of these people that are very much 514 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:07,920 ideologically aligned with Antifa, with the Communists, with the socialist They've killed many, 515 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:12,840 many, many more people than anybody on the right. Halse and I 516 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,000 also take objection with the fact that like the KKK or the or the neo 517 00:36:16,079 --> 00:36:21,239 Nazis are from the right, but let's okay, sure there, let's put 518 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,280 them in there. Even then, the left has killed far more any more 519 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:29,400 people and millions of people. That being said, I always if you want 520 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:31,079 to play that game, then Antifa has never killed anybody, which is false 521 00:36:31,199 --> 00:36:36,039 just because there's numbers out there. Okay, Well, the private Boy, 522 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:38,840 the Proboys, I've never killed anybody, you know, like they've never killed 523 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:43,239 anybody. That you can play that game from the right now if you want 524 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,800 to make the argument the proud Boy belongs to a right movement, a rational 525 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:50,199 movement. Okay, maybe the rights kill people, which is again like that's 526 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:55,719 a different conversation. But the misconception, the first mistake that the left does 527 00:36:55,760 --> 00:37:01,199 when talking about the right of the antifa is that anti belongs to a broader 528 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:07,679 left wing tradition that you cannot ignore. You just cannot ignore, like everything 529 00:37:07,679 --> 00:37:12,599 that the left wing anarchist movements have done throughout history. And then the second 530 00:37:12,599 --> 00:37:16,199 thing the misconception is then Nadifa actually exists. It's not necessarily a group, 531 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:22,079 it's not necessarily like they don't necessarily have meetings, but it's not an idea 532 00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:27,039 like Jerry Nandler, representative Jerry Nadler of Joe Biden's like to say, like 533 00:37:27,079 --> 00:37:29,079 it doesn't exist, it's just an idea. It's like, no, that's 534 00:37:29,119 --> 00:37:31,519 not true. Like they're out there and they're doing things. And the longer 535 00:37:31,679 --> 00:37:37,480 you continue to ignore the fact that they're out there doing things, the easier 536 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:42,920 it is for them to continue to act without any strong opposition, without any 537 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:49,960 opposition. And this is actually one of the things that Trump did right when 538 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:51,880 he was a president. There are a lot of things, but this is 539 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:53,360 one of the things that I appreciate about him when he was in office, 540 00:37:53,519 --> 00:37:57,239 is the fact that he was willing to call out Antifa, who was willing 541 00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,719 to call out left wing radical movements, because when you don't call them out, 542 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:04,880 which we have not seen like anybody really at the national stage call them 543 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,639 out for three years, and now you have all this campus protests, you 544 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:13,039 have all of these people that are chanting death to America, death to Jews, 545 00:38:13,119 --> 00:38:15,400 death to Israel, And it's like, what the hell, Like that 546 00:38:15,559 --> 00:38:20,559 is not okay even like and it surprises me too, because you know, 547 00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:22,519 like death to America, death to Israel is like okay, that's like a 548 00:38:22,559 --> 00:38:27,320 thing that anarchists would say, but the death to Jews, Like I'm very 549 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:31,440 surprised that, like there's not like other people like saying like what the hell 550 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,599 this is not okay from like the like the radical left, like the antifaul 551 00:38:35,599 --> 00:38:39,519 like chapters because one of the things that that they pride themselves of and like 552 00:38:39,559 --> 00:38:43,800 they'll talk about like anarchist movements, like protecting Jewish people, you know, 553 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,280 all these things, and like they're not speaking out about it because I mean 554 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:52,360 they have Twitter accounts, they have Facebook accounts. They shouldn't have well actually 555 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:54,639 it probably should have, but it sucks that they have them. But at 556 00:38:54,639 --> 00:38:59,559 the same time, they're not really releasing statements like they would have whenever George 557 00:38:59,559 --> 00:39:02,480 Floyd, the George Fullyard protest. They could and they still have not condemned 558 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:13,440 the call for the extermination of Jewish people. Yeah, that's I actually, 559 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:15,280 I am so glad you brought that up, because I was thinking the same 560 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:19,760 thing today, you know, and on the right, everybody, and I 561 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,559 think part of this is because the media tends to be left, so on 562 00:39:22,559 --> 00:39:25,880 the right, everybody rushes to denounce, you know, everything, We don't 563 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:30,599 need to get into Trump's you know, Charlottesville, all that stuff. But 564 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:34,239 it is true that, you know, conservatives will always because the media is 565 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:37,079 constantly asking, asking, and asking. But the organizers of none of these 566 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:43,079 campus protests, some of which are clearly Antifa, at least in Antifa adjacent 567 00:39:43,119 --> 00:39:45,719 like the one in Columbia. You said, like there's one off campus, 568 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:52,480 that there's a video of them off campus at the subway station chanting go ahead, 569 00:39:52,559 --> 00:39:57,519 yeah please. Another thing, another misconception of both that the left and 570 00:39:57,559 --> 00:40:00,960 the right get wrong is that the black block Antifa. The black block is 571 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:05,679 when you dressed in all black and then you, you know, cover your 572 00:40:05,679 --> 00:40:08,440 face to make sure that you're not recognized with the police. If they take 573 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:12,719 a photo of you, it's hard for you to identify you. That's a 574 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,320 tactic. The black block is a tactic, and you could change it with 575 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:20,599 many different things. In Portland they had the moms for I forgot a called 576 00:40:22,119 --> 00:40:23,760 moms are Antifa. They were wearing like shirts that said mom on it. 577 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:28,679 That's the same thing. A lot of them were now mothers, a lot 578 00:40:28,679 --> 00:40:31,320 of them were not dads. They just put that onto for pr purposes. 579 00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:37,320 So even though you don't have like the black block per se, you could 580 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:39,440 still be part of the Antifa movement. And and you know, I haven't 581 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:43,960 seen specific videos that you mentioned it, but I would not be surprised if 582 00:40:44,159 --> 00:40:47,239 they are, as you say, like Antifa or Antiva adjacent groups, because 583 00:40:49,039 --> 00:40:54,960 the black block and like the garments don't make you Antifa. And can you 584 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:59,840 tell us, Gabriel, about what you're doing now at you know, in 585 00:41:00,119 --> 00:41:04,840 your position now you're advocating for free speech, and can you tell us about 586 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:09,079 you where you're making having an effect in your sort of day to day now? 587 00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:15,960 Sure, So I'm at our America and I've been an activist for a 588 00:41:16,039 --> 00:41:20,639 really long time, and one of the things that I started to realize is 589 00:41:20,679 --> 00:41:23,039 that there's a lot of toxicity just from the left and right, and I 590 00:41:23,079 --> 00:41:28,639 didn't like it. So I started searching for something better to do, and 591 00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:30,679 I found Our America, which I helped launch it. I'm not the founder. 592 00:41:31,039 --> 00:41:34,920 Some people like put that out there, like oh because like I, 593 00:41:35,079 --> 00:41:38,679 But I am the smokesperson in my help launch it. And I think it's 594 00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:44,320 great because the purpose of Our America is to unite Americans, not as Republicans 595 00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,760 democrats, but as Americans advocating for our America. And we are not a 596 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:52,079 constructed organization or a liberal organization, but we are not a centrist organization by 597 00:41:52,079 --> 00:41:58,559 any means. We believe in specific issues. We believe that people have the 598 00:41:58,639 --> 00:42:01,239 right to fre speech, that that people have the right to practice the religion 599 00:42:01,559 --> 00:42:07,280 with that government interference, the right that criminals should be punished and not just 600 00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:12,800 let on the street, as well as we want to support the police when 601 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,800 they're doing good work. We want to make sure that the government stays out 602 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:19,360 of the economy to make sure that to keep a check on inflation. You 603 00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,599 know, some of these ideals are very foundational to what it means to be 604 00:42:22,599 --> 00:42:27,159 an American, and that the vast majority of Americans agree. We've done polling 605 00:42:27,639 --> 00:42:32,079 and other people's polls. They confirm that on these issues, you'll have eighty 606 00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:37,679 ninety percent of Americans agree with these statements. Yet as soon as you put 607 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:42,199 it into the context of like a Republican or a liberal or a Democrat or 608 00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:45,280 what have you, then all of a sudden, people they want to go 609 00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:52,960 back to their group. They're very they don't want anything to do with the 610 00:42:53,000 --> 00:43:00,000 other side. So what we're trying to do is to really show that there 611 00:43:00,119 --> 00:43:06,679 is another alternative that again, eighty ninety percent of Americans agree with us on 612 00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:09,840 these core issues, so we should be working on specific issues as opposed to 613 00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:17,000 just seeing everything to the lens of partisanship. I sometimes get pessimistic about this 614 00:43:17,159 --> 00:43:22,840 coalition of you know, people on the right and left who can come together 615 00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:28,320 on these critical conversations about things like free speech. I mean, actually, 616 00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:31,519 even just this debate about what's happening at Columbia and Yale is splintering some people 617 00:43:31,559 --> 00:43:37,440 in those camps. And going forward, I mean, there are so many 618 00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:43,400 powerful coalitions between left and right post Trump especially things that kind of scrambled and 619 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:49,199 it's the landscape is different. What's your perspective, Gabriel, You know, 620 00:43:49,559 --> 00:43:53,480 having been go ahead, we have to remember that the voices Antifa and the 621 00:43:53,559 --> 00:44:00,199 voices in the in the extreme right are very minute when compared to everybody. 622 00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:07,599 One of the problems is that a lot of times you have these people making 623 00:44:07,639 --> 00:44:10,000 a lot of noise and it's you know this, I just saw a video 624 00:44:10,039 --> 00:44:15,880 of this guy yelling and he's and he was saying what was he saying, 625 00:44:16,079 --> 00:44:19,719 like the more you silence us, the more the louder we speak, or 626 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:22,840 something like that. He was being arrested, and you see this video and 627 00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:24,400 you're like, oh man, there's a lot of people like that. No, 628 00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:28,880 Like, he is literally alone. He is one of the few people 629 00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,000 who are actually believe in what they believe. So one of the problems that 630 00:44:31,079 --> 00:44:36,840 you have is when institutions, particularly in the college space, they are failing 631 00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:43,599 to hold these people accountable, who are who are occupying spaces illegally, who 632 00:44:43,679 --> 00:44:47,760 are are defacing property, And when you fail to do that, you embolden 633 00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:52,719 them. You embolden this tiny minority of people and they make themselves look bigger 634 00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:57,280 than they are, but as I mentioned, the vast majority of Americans don't 635 00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:04,920 like them. Let's keep things in in context for a second. Everybody knows 636 00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,559 that academia is left leaning. We're not even talking about left like far left. 637 00:45:08,679 --> 00:45:14,920 It's left leaning. And yet somehow, when it came to the president 638 00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:20,039 of Harvard, President Gay, she was fired, and people were saying it 639 00:45:20,079 --> 00:45:23,719 was the al right, there's no conservatives or even right wing people in the 640 00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:29,480 Harvard board. It was all liberals, all liberals. Liberals took care of 641 00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,159 their own there. And you can argue the merits of whether she had been 642 00:45:32,159 --> 00:45:37,880 pushed out or not, but the fact is that the majority finally did something 643 00:45:37,119 --> 00:45:44,760 against this extreme leftist factions. And I feel a little bit. I feel 644 00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:47,159 good about what Columbia's doing right now. They're saying like, no, we're 645 00:45:47,159 --> 00:45:51,519 not going to take it, or same thing for Google. Google they just 646 00:45:51,559 --> 00:45:55,039 fire twenty eight employees. They just hire twenty eight employees. And we have 647 00:45:55,119 --> 00:46:00,400 to remember the fact that when you look at Google, they hire undreds of 648 00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:04,400 thousands of employees. Probably maybe that's an over exaggeration, but thousands and thousands 649 00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:08,119 of employees, and it was only twenty eight people. And Google has said 650 00:46:08,159 --> 00:46:12,159 to them. No, we are not going to listen to these twenty eight 651 00:46:12,199 --> 00:46:15,679 people. You are fired. Anybody else who does this, who tries to 652 00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:17,880 illegally occupy our offices, is going to be out. If you continue to 653 00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:22,599 do that, and you continue to shut down those tiny, tiny, those 654 00:46:22,639 --> 00:46:28,039 tiny numbers of people who are just extreme, then you won't get it as 655 00:46:28,119 --> 00:46:35,239 much anymore. Gabriel Nadales, What else should people know about what you guys 656 00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:39,880 are doing with all of your excellent work, you know, I mean, 657 00:46:40,039 --> 00:46:43,800 one of the things that we're doing right now is we're really taking a look 658 00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:46,320 at our plan for the next couple of years. We really want to start 659 00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:52,199 focusing on free speech and really to give people a voice who are sick and 660 00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:57,320 tired of the toxic politics because the minority of Americans believe in America, the 661 00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:00,920 majority of Americans don't want to be lumped in with the far left and the 662 00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:05,519 far right. So we're giving them a home to be able to express themselves. 663 00:47:07,559 --> 00:47:09,280 And where can people find out about your work? Sure? I mean, 664 00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:15,039 people can check me out on Twitter at og Nadalas, or check us 665 00:47:15,039 --> 00:47:20,679 out on our website at join Ouramerica dot org. There you go, Gabriel 666 00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:22,559 and Nadalas, thank you so much for sharing your story, for being so 667 00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:25,599 open. Just appreciate it very much. I thank you, I appreciate the 668 00:47:25,599 --> 00:47:30,360 opportunity. Of course, you've been listening to another edition of The Federalist Radio 669 00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:32,199 Hour. I'm Emily Kashinski, culture editor here at The Federalist. We'll be 670 00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:36,679 back soon with more. Until then, be lovers of freedom and anxious for 671 00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:37,119 the frame.