1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,760 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:29,120 Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,840 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:45,920 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and 10 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:50,280 I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined again today by one of our very favorite 11 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,359 people, Joe Jack Alone, here to talk to us about all of the 12 00:00:53,399 --> 00:00:57,719 goings ons in the world of true crime and true crime podcasting. Sarge, 13 00:00:57,799 --> 00:01:00,640 thank you so much for joining us again anytime. Nice to be here. 14 00:01:00,679 --> 00:01:04,799 Against So take a minute and refresh our listener's memory, if you would, 15 00:01:04,799 --> 00:01:10,680 about who you are and how you got into the true crime space. Sure. 16 00:01:10,719 --> 00:01:12,680 I am a retired sgeant from the New York City Police Department. I 17 00:01:12,719 --> 00:01:17,560 spent over twenty years. I retired as an SDS, which is supervisor to 18 00:01:17,599 --> 00:01:19,760 the Technive Squad. I was the commanding officer of the Bronx Cold Case Squad. 19 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:25,719 I've been an adjunct professor at John Jay College for almost twenty years now, 20 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:29,000 and I've written two books, The Criminal Investigative Function, A Guy for 21 00:01:29,079 --> 00:01:33,120 New Investigators in the fourth edition, and my new book of the Cold Case 22 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:37,120 Handbook, which just came out last April. So I'm excited about that. 23 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:42,040 And I started a YouTube channel. I do my life shows on True Crime 24 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:44,599 with the Sergeant. I started that in August and I'm closing in on ten 25 00:01:44,599 --> 00:01:49,760 thousand subscribers, so that's exciting too. Yeah, that's fantastic, Ravo. 26 00:01:49,079 --> 00:01:55,599 That is not a small feat. Congratulations. Thanks, yep. I got 27 00:01:55,599 --> 00:01:57,920 a long way to catch up to you, guys, but we're starting to 28 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:02,920 do something. You're insights are so interesting and thoughtful, and you're bringing this 29 00:02:04,519 --> 00:02:09,680 twenty year career to bear on discussing new cases. It's really interesting to have 30 00:02:09,759 --> 00:02:14,759 someone like you talk about what's going on in the true crime space. Well, 31 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:19,360 I appreciate that. How did you get into podcasting? It's honestly, 32 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:23,879 it's something that I always wanted to do, and like probably a lot of 33 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:28,280 other people, some of the friends and acquaintances discouraged me from doing it. 34 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:30,280 Who's going to listen? Why do you want to do this? I do 35 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:35,159 a lot of TV media, as you guys know. Yeah, and I 36 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:37,960 do a lot, and I used to do a lot more. I paired 37 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:42,360 back over the last few years just because it becomes a full time job that 38 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:46,000 you don't get paid for. And the issue that comes down to is you 39 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:49,439 listen to sometimes some bad advice, and then you realize that, hey, 40 00:02:49,479 --> 00:02:52,560 you know what, what's the worst that's going to happen if I fail? 41 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:55,199 At least I say I tried. There you go. I love that. 42 00:02:55,199 --> 00:02:59,960 That's a great way to look at it. And everybody faces the same thing 43 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:01,840 in the podcasting world. You guys know that. Do people have told you, 44 00:03:01,879 --> 00:03:07,199 I'm sure it's you're wasting your time, nobody's going to listen and everything 45 00:03:07,199 --> 00:03:08,680 else. And then here, you guys are right, I think when you 46 00:03:08,719 --> 00:03:12,719 got a million downloads and everything else, that goes on. So for all 47 00:03:12,719 --> 00:03:15,319 those people, all the haters out there, you know what, they got 48 00:03:15,319 --> 00:03:19,159 to do something other than focus on what everybody else is doing. If they 49 00:03:19,199 --> 00:03:21,680 just focus on their doing, they wouldn't have time to hate on anybody else. 50 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,599 But I'm baffled, Joe, with all of your experience and all of 51 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:29,199 your insight, why would your friends or colleagues say to you, all, 52 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:31,120 don't bother. It's a waste of time. No one's gonna listen. The 53 00:03:31,159 --> 00:03:34,879 truth is, I think people are very interested in what you have to say. 54 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:38,560 And that's been the positive of that, right, And I was pushing 55 00:03:38,639 --> 00:03:42,680 up against it because I'm saying, listen to I'm on CNN and MSNBC and 56 00:03:42,759 --> 00:03:45,080 Fox News and you name it. And I'm like, everybody else wants to 57 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:49,319 listen to me. Why wouldn't people out there who don't watch those channels? 58 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:52,879 Right, Because not everybody watches the local news anymore. I grew up on 59 00:03:52,919 --> 00:03:54,560 that. Maybe you guys grew up on that too. We watched the local 60 00:03:54,639 --> 00:03:58,840 news every night, and we were tuned into the TV. And things have 61 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:02,439 changed dramatically, and social media has taken over, and podcasting and videocasting and 62 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:06,520 all the other things that have become a real point whereas people who wanted to 63 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:10,360 get their voice out and wanted to do things have that opportunity now, and 64 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:14,319 I encourage others to do it. There's plenty of room in the true crime 65 00:04:14,319 --> 00:04:17,360 space, no matter what people will tell you, absolutely, and there's always 66 00:04:17,439 --> 00:04:21,680 room for expert voices, and obviously you are very much one of those. 67 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:27,040 Does your work in the true crime space make you miss being a homicide detective? 68 00:04:27,519 --> 00:04:30,480 Do you actually want to get back out there on the pavement and follow 69 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:32,759 leads, rundown suspects, that sort of thing. Every now and then I 70 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,319 get that thought in my head, and then I quickly dismiss it because I 71 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:39,800 did it one of those been there, done that kind of thing. I'm 72 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:44,000 getting old now it's a young person's job. Maybe I can pass along some 73 00:04:44,399 --> 00:04:46,360 of the things that I've learned, some of the mistakes that I've made, 74 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:51,639 and some of the insights that I've had in regards to specifically cold case homicides 75 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:55,120 and try to help families. And that's one of the reason why I wrote 76 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:57,879 my book, is because it helps not only the police, but it also 77 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:00,600 helps the family and the true crime community. We can get a lot of 78 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:02,120 tips on that too, about how they can get exposure to some of these 79 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:06,199 cold cases because they are just piling up. Unfortunately. Are there times, 80 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:11,399 Joe, when you think back on cases that you handled in the BRONX years 81 00:05:11,439 --> 00:05:16,759 ago that you'd like to revisit with the latest forensic technology. Does that cross 82 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:21,000 your mind? Boy, if we had the science that we have in twenty 83 00:05:21,079 --> 00:05:25,879 twenty four back when I was working these cases. Absolutely, and it's not 84 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:29,560 just the forensic science actually of it. I wish we had the cell phone 85 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:32,639 records and the video surveillance and the Internet records that I refer to as the 86 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:36,160 three forensic horsemen, not even including the DNA, because the cases that we 87 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:41,519 were investigating in the early two thousands were from the eighties and nineties where none 88 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:45,759 of that existed, and we were dealing with VHS tapes that kind of you 89 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:47,879 got from the local bodega that had been written over one hundred times, and 90 00:05:47,959 --> 00:05:51,759 you when you could barely see the person's face, was a blurry thing. 91 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:55,600 And I always make a joke, I said, we can send pictures from 92 00:05:55,600 --> 00:06:00,399 Mars that are absolutely flawless, but meanwhile, the local grocery store can't give 93 00:06:00,439 --> 00:06:02,959 you a straight picture from the robbery suspect. It's absolutely insane. Yeah, 94 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:09,199 from shot a dozen feet behind the register. You mentioned the three horsemen. 95 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:13,399 Go back over that a little bit for our benefit. What are the three 96 00:06:13,439 --> 00:06:15,879 horsemen? The three Yeah, refer to U as the three threndsic corsemen. 97 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:18,439 And the first wrote about it in around twenty eleven, I think, in 98 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,959 the first edition of my investigation book, and it was the video surveillance, 99 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:26,360 Internet records, and cell phone records. Those are the three things that, 100 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:30,240 of course law enforcement should be keen in on every case, no matter what. 101 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:33,199 And we see that play out every night over and over again on TV 102 00:06:33,319 --> 00:06:36,319 when you're talking about some of these cases. And I keep on trying to 103 00:06:36,319 --> 00:06:39,800 tell people like listen, look, you got to look at the cell phone 104 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:42,360 records. You gotta do this, you got to do that. And it's 105 00:06:42,399 --> 00:06:46,160 almost as if some well gloss over that and saying it's not that big of 106 00:06:46,199 --> 00:06:48,279 a deal, or it might not exist, or what have you. That 107 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,720 phone in your pocket or that smart watch on your wrist, which I call 108 00:06:51,759 --> 00:06:58,360 the snitch on your wrist track so much information and data, and and you 109 00:06:58,399 --> 00:07:01,839 think about it, it could help detectives with the estimated time of death right 110 00:07:01,879 --> 00:07:05,120 because this thing tracks your heart rate and everything else, and when that thing 111 00:07:05,199 --> 00:07:10,079 goes to zero, which is me on Sundays, it keeps on asking me 112 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:13,879 are you alive? Kind of thing. But it's a great investigative tool, 113 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:16,519 and they're pretty pervasive or ubiquitous, whatever word you want to use. They're 114 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:20,120 everywhere. Everyone's got them, no matter what social structure. People have these 115 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:25,040 things. Yeah, let the record show I was just showing the snitch on 116 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:28,519 my wrist, which does tell me every single day, why aren't you walking 117 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:30,839 more and get more steps? This hour? Eating myself? Even my cell 118 00:07:30,839 --> 00:07:34,920 phone reminds me I need to walk more and get more exercise, which is 119 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:40,000 good advice, but I don't necessarily need an iPhone telling me what to do. 120 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:44,199 It's a great investigative tool, but it just has to be done properly, 121 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:46,720 and we've seen time and time again law enforcement make that big mistake. 122 00:07:46,759 --> 00:07:49,480 I mean, had Coppint versit the United States, which is a California case, 123 00:07:49,839 --> 00:07:54,160 if McCall correctly, I think it was California. Basically kept on telling 124 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:56,800 the cops you have to get a warrant in order to get into the phone. 125 00:07:56,959 --> 00:08:00,079 It's an important step that we see and I think there was just the 126 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,839 recent case where they messed that up, maybe even in this Karen Read case, 127 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:07,160 right, because the allegation is that the trooper will get into this maybe 128 00:08:07,199 --> 00:08:11,319 later on, but the trooper searched the phone without a warrant allegedly. Here's 129 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:15,199 these things keep on popping up over and over again, and I just went 130 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,199 I want to bang my head against the wall because there's lots of information that 131 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:20,800 people can get for free. You don't have to buy a book or pay 132 00:08:20,839 --> 00:08:24,319 for a course. There's plenty of information out there for free that investigators can 133 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:28,199 do excellent point. You obviously have a wealth of knowledge, and there is 134 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:33,799 no shortage of interesting cases to talk about. How do you choose the cases 135 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:35,799 you discuss, or rather, how do you triage all of the information that 136 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:39,639 you get coming at you. We have sort of an embarrassment of riches here 137 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:43,840 within the true crime space, So how do you choose your cases? Yeah, 138 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:46,720 unfortunately, this month is going to be a hell of a year for 139 00:08:46,759 --> 00:08:50,519 true crime. You have Karen Reid case, You have this case that just 140 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:56,000 happened in South and North Carolina with this young woman who committed suicide and all 141 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:58,639 this other stuff, and then you have you know, the Brian Colberger case 142 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:03,120 in DELFI the next four weeks are going to be insane, and there are 143 00:09:03,159 --> 00:09:07,320 cases I'd like to be more involved in the Delphi case, but I've hooked 144 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:11,480 my caboost to the Colburger case and the Red case. I have just backed 145 00:09:11,519 --> 00:09:16,120 into this just because a buddy of mine that does I have this morning show 146 00:09:16,159 --> 00:09:18,159 I call roll Call, which is a police term where everybody gets their assignments 147 00:09:18,159 --> 00:09:22,320 today, and he comes on quite often to Mike Galcazar and he's, Joe, 148 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:26,320 are you watching what's going on with these with this investigation? He goes, 149 00:09:26,399 --> 00:09:28,840 is this is right up your ally. This is like a total disaster 150 00:09:28,919 --> 00:09:31,440 in the making. So he got me involved in that. Boy, was 151 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:33,879 he right? Unfortunately, this has turned out to be a real textbook case. 152 00:09:33,919 --> 00:09:37,279 This is they're going to write about this case for years to come. 153 00:09:37,639 --> 00:09:39,320 You're talking about Karen read there, Karen read, oh, yeah, this 154 00:09:39,399 --> 00:09:43,639 is going to be textbook material, just like for my first book, the 155 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,679 OJ case was textbook material about things you don't do because detectives, like many 156 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:50,639 others, we learn from other people's mistakes. Because you don't want to be 157 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:54,279 the guy a girl that has a Supreme Court decision with your name attached to 158 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:58,440 it, or or you just don't. And just on a side note, 159 00:09:58,639 --> 00:10:01,759 A couple years ago, I had spent some time with Carol Cooley, who 160 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,960 was the detective that arrested Ernesto Miranda, and I spent a number of hours 161 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:09,279 with him in his house and we talked about certain things, and I asked 162 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:11,720 him before I was leaving, I said, did you ever think fifty years 163 00:10:11,759 --> 00:10:13,879 later people would be still mentioning your name? He goes, absolutely not, 164 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:16,960 because there were four other cases that went to the Supreme Court. It just 165 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:22,159 so happens that the Miranda case, the M was the first letter of the 166 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:24,960 alphabet that was available. Everybody else was after the M. So that's why 167 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,240 it's called Miranda versus Arizona. So he was like, yeah, just one 168 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,039 letter off I would have you wouldn't even have known who I was. So 169 00:10:31,159 --> 00:10:35,720 he was choking about that. Oh, in that we've all heard Miranda's name 170 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:41,559 thousands of times. If you watch the news or follow true crime in any 171 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:43,879 way, shape or form, it's always there. It had sent out a 172 00:10:43,879 --> 00:10:48,639 couple of years ago to do like this living history bit with Laura Enforceman and 173 00:10:48,639 --> 00:10:52,039 I said, I had reached out to Carol in Arizona and I said, 174 00:10:52,039 --> 00:10:54,440 listen, are you interested in doing a sit down interview? And he said 175 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:56,720 sure. So I went out to Arizona and I sat down at him. 176 00:10:56,799 --> 00:11:01,679 My mistake was I went out in July and nearly melted. But I have 177 00:11:01,799 --> 00:11:05,360 about four hours of material that I don't know how to edit because this is 178 00:11:05,399 --> 00:11:09,080 just like everything else. And I had a recorded conversation with James Levell, 179 00:11:09,159 --> 00:11:13,159 who was the famous detective that was handcuffed to Lee Harvey Oswald when he was 180 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:16,080 showing, Oh yeah, I have that interview. So I have a lot 181 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:20,240 of these historic interviews that need to get them out there, and now that 182 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:24,559 I have a platform for it, now I finally have a good reason to 183 00:11:24,759 --> 00:11:28,360 get it out into the public. Let's talk about Karen Reid for a few 184 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:33,200 minutes. Kristin and I had done some coverage with a focus on Turtle Boy, 185 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:39,279 the blogger slash advocate slash problematic has kind of inserted himself in this case 186 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:43,440 without focusing on him as much. Where are we with Karen Reid and what 187 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:48,879 are some of your latest observations with that case as it moves through trial. 188 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:52,720 The first week, it was one zero defense for sure, and so far 189 00:11:52,799 --> 00:11:56,600 this week is setting up to be to nothing by the time this week is 190 00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:01,960 over. And the reason is because law enforcement has really done a bad job. 191 00:12:03,519 --> 00:12:07,559 The prosecutor has done a terrible job. Everybody was talking conspiracy, and 192 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:11,360 I'm trying to explain to people competence does an equal conspiracy. Right, you 193 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:13,480 might be able to find something else down the road, but right now I'm 194 00:12:13,639 --> 00:12:18,919 just seeing police work that is not even gradable, so to speak. If 195 00:12:18,919 --> 00:12:20,960 you had to give him a grade, the best grade I would give them 196 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:24,200 would be a D minus right now. And that's something too. This was 197 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:28,480 one step below above F because how they handled the evidence is atrocious. The 198 00:12:28,519 --> 00:12:33,279 train of custody, they can't answer any questions, everything is I don't recall. 199 00:12:33,759 --> 00:12:37,159 It just really looks bad. And you have a district attorney who is 200 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:41,759 pretty much asleep and not really garnering much attention and getting people to be on 201 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:46,200 his side, and I yet to see him win even a small battle so 202 00:12:46,279 --> 00:12:50,039 far. Jo. I love what you just said about incompetence doesn't equal conspiracy, 203 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:54,519 because I think there are actually any number of people that you could shut 204 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:58,320 down arguments with by just making that point. Just because someone isn't doing their 205 00:12:58,399 --> 00:13:03,200 job right doesn't mean there's a whole world of conspiracy out there. I love 206 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:05,840 that, Thank you for putting that on my radar. It's the conspiracy thing. 207 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:09,960 That's how it started off with, right Karen Reid was framed. Now 208 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:13,320 the defense has done such a good job picking these guys apart that now they've 209 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:16,879 put themselves in a position where they're not proven conspiracy, and now the jury 210 00:13:16,919 --> 00:13:18,759 might be actually left on the thing going on. There is no conspiracy here, 211 00:13:20,279 --> 00:13:24,720 so it could actually end up haunting them. Listen, most cases don't 212 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:26,240 go to trial, we know that, and out of the cases that do 213 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:28,720 go to trial, something like eighty five percent of them end up in a 214 00:13:28,759 --> 00:13:31,879 guilty verdict. Right now, if this case ended today, I would say 215 00:13:31,919 --> 00:13:35,320 either on jury or an acquittal. It's just as simple as that, because 216 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:39,240 it's just has not gone well. Do you think this is more of a 217 00:13:39,279 --> 00:13:46,960 problem of bad police work improper handling of important evidence, or is it bad 218 00:13:46,039 --> 00:13:52,639 presentation by the prosecution or is it all three? It's a confluence of things 219 00:13:52,639 --> 00:13:54,759 for sure, But listen from the police perspective, when you're looking at how 220 00:13:54,799 --> 00:13:58,639 the evidence was done who was interviewing questions and making I think there was a 221 00:13:58,639 --> 00:14:03,159 couple of people specifically. I think it was the lieutenant or the sergeant. 222 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:07,320 You have detectives, they have an investigations unit that you know, where are 223 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:09,519 the detectives asking the questions? Who's getting the case? Why are these supervisors 224 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:13,000 in there? And you know what small departments do things differently. I get 225 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:18,159 it. I talk from the experience of the largest police department basically the world, 226 00:14:18,279 --> 00:14:22,000 at least the country. You're dealing with a situation where you need to 227 00:14:22,039 --> 00:14:26,000 have people who have done this before to be able to handle it. Right, 228 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,200 I think I saw too many people involved, right, they ald saying 229 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,679 too many cooks boil the super broth or whatever it is. That's what I 230 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:37,240 see here. That kind of led to this spumbling. And what didn't help 231 00:14:37,399 --> 00:14:39,960 was the blizzard. Right, So the state police weren't coming. We know 232 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:41,919 that because people are like, why in the state police. They're supposed to 233 00:14:41,919 --> 00:14:45,080 respond to homicides and death investigations. They're supposed to do this, Yeah, 234 00:14:45,159 --> 00:14:48,120 but not coming there's a blizzard. So my question is where was the backup 235 00:14:48,159 --> 00:14:52,960 plan? Who was trained, who was sent for this kind of situation that 236 00:14:54,039 --> 00:14:56,879 knows how to take photographs, collect evidence, secure it. The lieutenant, 237 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:01,120 understand, couldn't even remember if you ever use evidence tape. These are the 238 00:15:01,159 --> 00:15:03,240 kind of things where just shake your head at a certain point and say, 239 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:07,519 what is going on here? It's like a certain amount of malfeasans is definitely 240 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:11,879 the name of the game for this. I did a little bit of a 241 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:15,720 rant on Twitter just because I was just aggravated yesterday after watching it. I 242 00:15:15,799 --> 00:15:20,360 just I left home and I went outside and I told everybody that the lieutenant 243 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:22,720 deserves to be put on traffic duty the rest of the day. And I 244 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:24,720 am going to get a coffee and don't because that's what I deserve. But 245 00:15:26,039 --> 00:15:30,519 I noticed you mentioned the doughnut. When I was watching the clip, I 246 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,399 just laughed out loud. It was that frustrating, and I even said it, 247 00:15:33,759 --> 00:15:37,519 Listen, we are still within the anti cop environment in this country. 248 00:15:37,559 --> 00:15:41,960 Nobody's going to tell me otherwise. My opinion has been set. Anybody can 249 00:15:43,039 --> 00:15:45,679 argue with me if they want it. I'm just not going to pay attention 250 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:50,120 because it is And unfortunately, this kind of situation brings out the sea. 251 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:52,600 Look see how bad they are. Look at this is going on right. 252 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:54,360 I just this is the word. I'm looking for it. There's gonna be 253 00:15:54,399 --> 00:15:58,720 a magnifying glass on this case in regards to what the cops did or didn't 254 00:15:58,759 --> 00:16:03,039 do. And I'm just telling you it's like almost like you're looking for that 255 00:16:03,159 --> 00:16:06,879 other shoe to drop, right, something big is coming. The defense has 256 00:16:06,879 --> 00:16:08,519 been setting everybody up. I don't know if you guys saw it. I 257 00:16:08,559 --> 00:16:11,720 was on Court TV, the first witness that was being interviewed, and I 258 00:16:11,759 --> 00:16:15,000 told that was what Julie Grant and I told her, I said, look, 259 00:16:15,039 --> 00:16:18,200 this is what's coming, this is where he's going. And sure enough, 260 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:19,759 and she said, how did you know that? I said, because, 261 00:16:19,759 --> 00:16:22,960 first of all, I've testified in court, that's the first thing. 262 00:16:22,039 --> 00:16:25,720 Second of all, if you just look at what goes on, in order 263 00:16:25,759 --> 00:16:30,679 to impeach anybody's credibility, you have to prove that they made so many mistakes 264 00:16:30,679 --> 00:16:34,519 that it's basically an incompetence thing. It was about documentation. The saying goes 265 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:38,159 if it's not documented, it wasn't done. As simple as that. So 266 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,399 you can't go into court and say we did this, but I didn't write 267 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:45,159 it down. You might as well have just said I want a million dollars, 268 00:16:45,159 --> 00:16:49,519 but it's not my bank account. It doesn't work in your heart of 269 00:16:49,639 --> 00:16:56,600 heart, Joe, do you think Karen Reid killed her boyfriend with SUV that 270 00:16:56,799 --> 00:17:00,159 the night they were out drinking. To be honest with one of the reasons 271 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:03,840 why I stayed away from this case is because I couldn't, for lack of 272 00:17:03,879 --> 00:17:07,119 a better word, or I couldn't get a read on this case. I 273 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:11,519 usually have a very strong feeling one way or the other when I'm talking about 274 00:17:11,559 --> 00:17:14,240 these cases. When I'm dealing with this from the very beginning, I stayed 275 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:18,119 away from it because I couldn't get a read on it. One of the 276 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:21,720 things that first popped into my mind was she was so terribly drunk she might 277 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:23,640 have hit him and then drove away. But then the murder charge kind of 278 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,440 threw me all off right, because I think that was a bit of an 279 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:32,319 overstep on the DA's part two. I don't like when they overcharge, and 280 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:33,319 it was like one of those if you shoot for the stars and you get 281 00:17:33,319 --> 00:17:37,799 the moon, great kind of thing. I don't think that's the way things 282 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,240 should go. You charge what the crime is and that the chips fall where 283 00:17:41,279 --> 00:17:45,519 they make. When the first cop on the scene. I think his name 284 00:17:45,559 --> 00:17:49,519 was Officer Sarah. The first testimony and he said that he didn't even sit 285 00:17:49,559 --> 00:17:55,079 down with the district attorney before the trial in preparation for his testimony. I 286 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:59,480 nearly fainted. I couldn't believe it. Now, Yes, and he wasn't 287 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:03,759 the only one I have never heard. You're talking about a homicide case and 288 00:18:03,799 --> 00:18:07,279 you're talking about no trial prep. It's absolutely insane if that's the truth. 289 00:18:07,319 --> 00:18:11,759 I think you had at least two or three of the cops now said that 290 00:18:11,799 --> 00:18:15,039 we did not speak to the DA before going to this court. So I'm 291 00:18:15,039 --> 00:18:19,119 like, what that's just there's nothing wrong with sitting down with the district attorney 292 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,599 before your testimony, because the idea is, Okay, the defense is going 293 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:26,839 to ask you this question. What's going to be your answer? Think about 294 00:18:26,839 --> 00:18:30,559 it or listen. We know there's a problem, right, So they brought 295 00:18:30,559 --> 00:18:33,759 out the sheet that has the dispatch log that showed the sergeant already at the 296 00:18:33,759 --> 00:18:36,799 scene, which he wasn't, And there was supposed to be another unit at 297 00:18:36,799 --> 00:18:38,519 the scene which showed him they were at the scene, and they were not. 298 00:18:40,519 --> 00:18:42,559 At least through a trial prep, you would have found that out ahead 299 00:18:42,559 --> 00:18:45,160 of time, and you would have said, Okay, what's the reason for 300 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:49,319 this. It might be the fact that that dispatch Louge just meant that they 301 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:53,240 sent this cop and the sergeant and this other cop. It just it wasn't 302 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,279 about them arriving. I don't know. At least you could have had an 303 00:18:56,319 --> 00:19:00,440 answer. If not, it looked as if the defense just proved that we're 304 00:19:00,519 --> 00:19:03,680 already making up stuff by not having the sergeant at the scene, but saying 305 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:07,559 to telling everybody, according to this piece of paper he's at the scene, 306 00:19:07,559 --> 00:19:11,319 when we have it on the dashcam that he's not right. These are problems 307 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,559 that you put out and you can't refute them because of the fact that you 308 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:18,559 have the dashcam video, which is a heck of a lot more accurate than 309 00:19:18,599 --> 00:19:22,519 a log would be in terms of who was sent there, when they arrived. 310 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:27,400 Obviously, the camera is recording real life events in real time exactly. 311 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,799 And how do you not know that this is going to come up? How 312 00:19:30,839 --> 00:19:33,079 do you not know you have this whole thing on video? How do you 313 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:37,519 not how are you not prepared to answer these? Sometimes just simple questions, 314 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:41,920 because some of them could be explained very easily. Just for instance, the 315 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:45,440 lieutenant. I bashed him pretty good yesterday, but he got caught up in 316 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,519 something. I think he just got vaklempt is. He didn't know how to 317 00:19:48,519 --> 00:19:51,279 answer something. He probably knew the answer to it when he says, don't 318 00:19:51,279 --> 00:19:55,720 you know that the state police say you don't put biological evidence in plastic containers. 319 00:19:56,119 --> 00:20:00,759 That's not the case. That's you don't put anything with biological fluids in 320 00:20:00,799 --> 00:20:04,640 plastic security envelopes and then seal them because it creates that condensation and it degrees 321 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,400 to DNA. If I was understanding, he would have said that to me, 322 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,480 and I've been like, you're mistaken, right, It has to do 323 00:20:10,559 --> 00:20:15,240 with this. Here's the thing. They're putting evidence in red solo cups that 324 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,599 a cop brought home from his house. They're using a stop and shop paper 325 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:22,559 bag for this kind of stuff. You guys don't even have crime scene supplies 326 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,319 back at the station. Like, what are we doing over here? I 327 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:27,400 had said yesterday, I said, listen, this department needs an overhaul big 328 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,240 time. If you're the general. The chief of police is a female. 329 00:20:30,279 --> 00:20:33,720 I think her name was Oh God, her first name is Elena. Whatever. 330 00:20:33,839 --> 00:20:36,599 She's got some answers. He's got some questions coming at her if I 331 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:40,240 was the city council for sure, like how is your department not prepared for 332 00:20:40,319 --> 00:20:41,960 a crime scene? How do you not have crime scene tape or not have 333 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:48,680 the containers for these things and the paper bags and the security tape and everything 334 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:51,720 else. I just I'm going to question like, and I guarantee you they 335 00:20:51,799 --> 00:20:53,880 have it. These guys just didn't get it. That's that's my thinking. 336 00:20:53,960 --> 00:21:00,599 It's bad. I don't think Canton, Massachusetts is exactly murder central. They 337 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:06,240 must have had some violent crime, so they should have all of these supplies 338 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:10,319 necessary for a crime scene. Am I correct? Yes? This stuff doesn't 339 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:12,440 expire, right, A plastic bag isn't going to expire, so you could 340 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:15,480 you don't have to buy a thousand of them or ten thousand of them, 341 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:21,880 buy a hundred of them and just have them on hand. Because in this 342 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:23,759 day and age, you don't know what's going to happen, when it's going 343 00:21:23,759 --> 00:21:26,880 to happen, and the idea is you'd rather be prepared for it and have 344 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,880 it never happened than to happen and not be prepared for it. I understand 345 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,960 training costs a lot of money and this and that I spent a lot of 346 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:37,000 my own time and money even and got training on my own time, took 347 00:21:37,079 --> 00:21:40,960 days off, and that kind of stuff, just because the department isn't going 348 00:21:41,039 --> 00:21:44,440 to pay for you to spend a week in a a forensics class or a 349 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,119 document class or any of these other things. So you end up doing these 350 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:49,839 things on your own. But it's really about benefiting yourself in the long run 351 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:55,400 and making you more marketable within the department, and you're dealing with small departments, 352 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:59,240 and you're dealing with other issues when you're dealing with small departments in twenty 353 00:21:59,279 --> 00:22:03,480 twenty four, to have the correct type of mechanism to secure evidence. Let's 354 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,839 put it this way. It's unfortunate about that word. It's unfortunate. Now 355 00:22:07,839 --> 00:22:11,960 you're being charitable because when I watched you on your video clip, you ripped 356 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:15,039 into them pretty good. Yeah. I do everything, and I do this 357 00:22:15,079 --> 00:22:17,519 on my own show too. I do everything short of cursing. I don't 358 00:22:17,559 --> 00:22:19,880 really curse nothing like that. Let me tell you something, I almost dropped 359 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:25,680 a couple of bombs yesterday because it just infuriated me that, like I said, 360 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:27,400 in twenty twenty four, we're still talking about this stuff. It's come 361 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:32,519 on. Guys, we've been dealing with DNA now for over twenty five years. 362 00:22:32,519 --> 00:22:34,640 We know exactly how this is supposed to be done. This isn't a 363 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:38,880 big secret. Most of your audience probably understands how some of these pieces of 364 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:45,000 evidence and trace evidence and biological fluids should be done. I give quizzes every 365 00:22:45,039 --> 00:22:48,039 day on my YouTube page, and we've quizzed it on this already. Every 366 00:22:48,079 --> 00:22:52,359 day there's a quiz question and it's about and one of the quiz questions about 367 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:56,640 I guess about a month ago was what kind of security envelope do you put 368 00:22:56,799 --> 00:23:00,039 biological fluids? And then the answer was paper bag? Paper bag? Yeah, 369 00:23:00,039 --> 00:23:03,359 not stopping shop paper bag, a paper bag. Right, you're bringing 370 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:07,880 stuff from home. You don't know what's inside those cans and those cups. 371 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,839 It's not sterile, it's not coming out of a package, per se. 372 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,599 Everyone's touching these things. Chain of custody. They haven't even spoken about cheane 373 00:23:15,599 --> 00:23:18,440 of custody, but mark my words, guys, next week it's all gonna 374 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:22,720 be about chain of custody. It's funny. You're actually able to listen and 375 00:23:22,759 --> 00:23:25,559 you can hear the markers being laid down, and this is where oh, 376 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,119 when you were doing the court TV appearance, you're actually saying, this is 377 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,119 where this is going, yes, and this is where it is going, 378 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:36,240 right, because now it's they started talking about the tailight and the pieces. 379 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:38,359 Next week you watch, it's going to be who found the pieces? Where 380 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,839 are the pieces? Where's the documentation to see what? Who had them at 381 00:23:41,839 --> 00:23:45,680 the lamb, who tested them at the land, who sent them back? 382 00:23:45,759 --> 00:23:48,519 And when they say we don't know, oh no, luck Yeah funny. 383 00:23:48,519 --> 00:23:52,480 When you were talking about the use of colorful language, I was thinking to 384 00:23:52,519 --> 00:23:56,920 myself, they don't use bad language in the Bronx, do they? Oh? 385 00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:00,680 Yeah, sure. Listen. People will tell you sometimes when they listen 386 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,480 to my podcast, they go all great victims, the real Joe finally, 387 00:24:03,519 --> 00:24:07,119 and then it's run up to the edge and I walk back because I don't 388 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,079 listen. My show is not a PG rated show person just because of the 389 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,319 topics that we show. Watch shows where people are cursing like every other word, 390 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,519 and it just like it was interesting so to speak in that kind of 391 00:24:15,759 --> 00:24:21,319 so I avoid that, but a well placed one once in a while it 392 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:26,559 works. We gotta keep it classy, We gotta keep it classy up in 393 00:24:26,599 --> 00:24:30,359 here. It's just make sure the beasts sometimes do my old job. That's 394 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,400 everybody's cursing. People are cursing you, and every all day long is cursing. 395 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,160 So it's hard to get that out of your system. But I've been 396 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,720 out now for twelve years and I conquered that. I want to shift our 397 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:47,359 attention to the Brian Coberger Idaho four case, because there is something very interesting 398 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:49,640 going on with that. But I do want to actually get your input on 399 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:55,440 this question about preservation of the crime scene. We had actually spoke about why 400 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,880 we thought that Terry the house down was a mistaken We got a pretty fair 401 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:02,279 amount of pushback on that side. I'm really curious go on the record with 402 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:06,839 us. What is your thought about tearing down the Idaho fourhouse before the trial 403 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:11,000 has even taken place. Yeah, this is the dumbest move since they Mets 404 00:25:11,079 --> 00:25:15,519 traded the Tom Sevett to the Reds for a couple of bats and a couple 405 00:25:15,519 --> 00:25:19,759 of used baseballs. This was a real head scratcher. We could come up 406 00:25:19,799 --> 00:25:23,160 with reasons why this happened and speculate all day long, but just from the 407 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,720 point of view, So just I'll bring a break back to the Karen Rea 408 00:25:26,799 --> 00:25:29,599 case. What did the jury do the other day they went to the crime 409 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:33,319 scene nay, and they looked for they were able to look and take this 410 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:37,279 all in on their own because the questions that they have about backing up and 411 00:25:37,319 --> 00:25:40,319 where the body was located and all these things. The people want to see 412 00:25:40,319 --> 00:25:44,559 this right. You have a huge problem now with the Colburger case. Besides 413 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:48,400 other issues. Now when you say, because people ask how come the young 414 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:52,720 girl that was in the first floor, how come she didn't hear the screams 415 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:55,759 and all those other things, you can't test it now. You can't have 416 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,559 somebody standing in the basement where this girl came out of wh this woman came 417 00:25:59,839 --> 00:26:03,640 was living at the time, go up to the third floor and scream and 418 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,680 see if you can hear it. You don't have that ability anymore. And 419 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,440 it's an absolute travesty what they did, and it's going to come back and 420 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,240 haunt them. It's funny because Kristin and I talked about this several months ago, 421 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,519 and as Kristen said, we've got a lot of pushback. People said, 422 00:26:17,599 --> 00:26:22,960 no. They go in and they measure every aspect of the structure using 423 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:27,039 lasers and they record endless amounts of footage showing you the first floor, second 424 00:26:27,039 --> 00:26:30,160 floor, third floor, of the stairs, the whole thing. We both 425 00:26:30,279 --> 00:26:36,480 said, there's nothing like being there, the same reason that people go to 426 00:26:36,599 --> 00:26:40,680 Italy to see the coliseum, because it's still standing, you still get that 427 00:26:40,759 --> 00:26:44,319 feeling. There's nothing that can replace. There's no photo, there's no video 428 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,599 that can replace the actual thing. We've all been to a historic location and 429 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:52,559 that says on this site, something happens, right, and then you look 430 00:26:52,599 --> 00:26:55,839 at it and it's just a building or an empty parking lot. It doesn't 431 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:57,839 have the same feeling to you, right, I know something happened here. 432 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:00,680 He doesn't give us feeling. And just take for instance, I'm a big 433 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,640 baseball fan, and growing up in New York, you've always heard about the 434 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,319 Dodgers and the at Edbits Field, and I've been to those projects, working 435 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:11,440 there, the apartments, and I've worked in that location. And you sit 436 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,079 there where home plate is, there's a plaque and you sit there, says 437 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:18,319 on the spot Jackie Robinson became the first African American to break the color barrier. 438 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,240 And you're standing in the middle of nowhere and you just don't get the 439 00:27:21,279 --> 00:27:23,680 same feeling right, and I've seen photos of it, I've seen videos of 440 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,759 its field, but I don't have the experience of what it was like to 441 00:27:26,799 --> 00:27:30,079 watch a ball game there. That's about the best analogy I can give you. 442 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,920 And if if sorry, if you're not a baseball fan, you can 443 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,480 lose it. But I think you can understand what I'm trying to get across. 444 00:27:37,039 --> 00:27:41,759 You're listening to mind over Murder. We'll be right back after this word 445 00:27:41,799 --> 00:28:03,079 from our sponsors. We're back here at mindover Murder. Before we get back 446 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:06,640 to the podcast, just wanted to remind you that we have a go fundme 447 00:28:06,799 --> 00:28:11,680 effort going on right now. This campaign is designed to help us raise funds 448 00:28:11,799 --> 00:28:18,599 to help promote mind over Murder and specifically to push the Colonial Parkway murders investigation 449 00:28:18,839 --> 00:28:22,480 forward. We'd love it if you could support us in any way that you 450 00:28:22,559 --> 00:28:27,079 can. Any donation from five dollars to whatever you can afford is very much 451 00:28:27,079 --> 00:28:32,240 appreciated and will be incredibly helpful. The link is in the show notes and 452 00:28:32,319 --> 00:28:37,799 in our social media pages. As always, thanks for your support. Now 453 00:28:37,839 --> 00:28:44,039 back to mind over Murder. The Karen Read example is a good one. 454 00:28:44,079 --> 00:28:48,200 Now, obviously, if the jury was there recently, they're not in the 455 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:53,880 middle of a blizzard. But even something as simple as which way she backed 456 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,680 up in the driveway, I'm guessing that she might have been turning the car 457 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:03,240 around or whatever. But I had a lot of questions about her sightlines. 458 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,920 It was snowing, it was dark, she'd been drinking. But for instance, 459 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:14,200 if she was not impaired, would she have even been able to see 460 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:19,000 John O'Keefe, her boyfriend, who was fatally struck by it appears fatally struck 461 00:29:19,039 --> 00:29:25,279 by her vehicle. You'd be able to answer a lot of questions with a 462 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:29,559 visit to the site in terms of give me the lay of the land. 463 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,000 Listen, As a cold case investigator, one of the first steps we did 464 00:29:33,119 --> 00:29:36,799 was go to where the crime happened, if we can get access to it, 465 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:38,319 or to take a look at it, because you want to get the 466 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:44,640 feeling of where the positioning of the victim was, where certain items that were 467 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,079 found at the scene, and you try to get that visual so that you 468 00:29:48,119 --> 00:29:52,000 can start to mentally put a picture together about what you think happened. And 469 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:56,319 this is actually investigative one oh one, where the detectives get together and they 470 00:29:56,359 --> 00:30:00,200 come up with their theories or their hypothesis or educated guess, whatever you'd like 471 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:06,079 to call it. And one of the things that we always warn detectives about 472 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:11,400 was don't marry your hypothesis, don't find evidence, or only choose evidence that 473 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,519 proves your theory to be correct, because that's the major problem. And I 474 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,720 see that happen in a lot of the true crime community, where they look 475 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,480 for certain pieces that go, aha, see that fits my theory, See 476 00:30:22,559 --> 00:30:25,240 this is what's going on. Yet it doesn't work that way. You have 477 00:30:25,319 --> 00:30:27,039 to take a look at the whole picture. Like I tell people, I'm 478 00:30:27,079 --> 00:30:32,160 not pro Karen read. I'm not pro guilty Karen read to me, I 479 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:36,440 look at it as from a strictly criminal justice and investigative standpoint. We want 480 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:40,480 the justice system to service correctly. We want the police to do what they're 481 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,640 supposed to do, because when either one of those fail, we all lose. 482 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,880 And that's the bottom line. And yes, sometimes you have to let 483 00:30:48,079 --> 00:30:51,960 a guilty person go free. That's what the saying is right, because you 484 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:56,400 don't want a miscarriage of justice. And I am a firm believer in that. 485 00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:00,160 And the other thing that I see in some investigations and I'm not saying 486 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,400 the Karen Reid one per se, but it might come back to me that 487 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:07,319 way. One of the goals of an investigation is to exclude all others. 488 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:11,119 When you don't do that, this is what happens. Right. So now 489 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,920 they're looking at other people who could have been involved in the death of John 490 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,559 O'Keefe, right, because the police didn't do what they were supposed to do 491 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:25,359 and eliminate them as potential suspects from the very beginning. And when you don't 492 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,559 do that, this is what you get. Folks. Joe, you had 493 00:31:27,559 --> 00:31:34,440 mentioned overcharging a moment ago in relation to the John O'Keeffe death. Are you 494 00:31:34,559 --> 00:31:41,640 thinking that manslaughter might have been a more appropriate charge if Karen Reid is found 495 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,599 to be responsible for John O'Keeffe's death. I don't know the exact statutes of 496 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,039 Massachusetts, but whatever would be the vehicular manslaughter for people who are under the 497 00:31:49,039 --> 00:31:55,359 influence, right, whatever that charge might be, Because there's different kinds of 498 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:59,240 charges, not only for murder but also for manslaughter. Vehicular manslaughter is for 499 00:31:59,319 --> 00:32:04,119 generally people who are under the influence of either alcohol or narcotics. To me, 500 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,880 that would have probably been a more appropriate charge. But I also think 501 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:09,720 I would have waited a little while if I was the district attorney. I'm 502 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,519 a lawyer, Let's put it that way. Let's get that right out there. 503 00:32:12,559 --> 00:32:15,160 I'm no lawyer, but I've built cases for prosecution, and that's where 504 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:19,480 I'm coming from, right. I don't think the police built the case strong 505 00:32:19,559 --> 00:32:23,920 enough to withstand this barrage from the defense. And it's showing before we leave 506 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:29,279 Brian Coberger and the Idaho for our case behind. What else do you really 507 00:32:29,319 --> 00:32:34,160 have your eye on in terms of proceedings in the Coburger trial? What else 508 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,640 are you really looking forward to to discussing on your pod I've already started, 509 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,200 and I've also done it in the media. If I was a defense, 510 00:32:40,279 --> 00:32:43,920 the first thing I would have been going I would be yes, of course 511 00:32:44,119 --> 00:32:46,480 the DNA and the cell phone records. Of course you're going to go after 512 00:32:46,519 --> 00:32:52,599 that. But for me, what's ripe for a defense to just steam roll 513 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:58,559 the prosecution is how the crime scene was handled. It was just so many 514 00:32:58,559 --> 00:33:02,079 people involved, and I hope they kept the crime scene log about who entered 515 00:33:02,119 --> 00:33:05,880 that place and when they entered it, and then you had issues where they 516 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:09,079 were giving back furniture and personal items during the middle of a crime scene. 517 00:33:09,279 --> 00:33:13,039 And I was on News Nation with Chris Cuomo at that time, and I 518 00:33:13,039 --> 00:33:15,559 said, as far as I'm concerned, and you could find that episode is 519 00:33:15,559 --> 00:33:16,440 still up there, and I said, I told Chris, I said, 520 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:20,799 as far as I'm concerned this day, this time, the crime scene is 521 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,119 over. Anything you find now is going to be bought left and right because 522 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:27,759 they're just going to the defense is going to go how do I know that 523 00:33:27,839 --> 00:33:30,920 you didn't have evidence in those other items that you sent away? Right? 524 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,319 You gave away and then they had the crime scene crew, cleanup crew come 525 00:33:34,319 --> 00:33:37,799 in, remember that whole mess. And then the chief is driving a U 526 00:33:37,839 --> 00:33:40,480 haul with stuff in it, and then the mattresses are in the back of 527 00:33:40,519 --> 00:33:45,200 a pickup truck. The list just goes on and on. I'm like, 528 00:33:45,279 --> 00:33:46,759 if I was the chief and that pickup truck, I would just drive myself 529 00:33:46,839 --> 00:33:51,640 right off the cliff because you sit there going, my god, if he 530 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:53,799 goes no, it's a small town nonsense. You had the state police there, 531 00:33:53,839 --> 00:33:58,039 the feeds a day. You're telling me nobody has the right equipment to 532 00:33:58,079 --> 00:34:00,759 do this. Give me a break with this already. Come on, they 533 00:34:00,839 --> 00:34:06,599 had strong support. It didn't just fall to the Moscow, idaholp Police Department 534 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:12,440 like you said that Idaho State Police and they're a very well regarded lab and 535 00:34:12,519 --> 00:34:16,119 the FBI, and they had a lot of resources. And this isn't like 536 00:34:16,159 --> 00:34:20,719 this was when we talk about the Colonial Parkway murders, and we're talking about 537 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:25,320 a case that's thirty seven years old, and the standards by which crime scenes 538 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:30,199 are handled in twenty twenty four are radically different than they were in nineteen eighty 539 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:35,360 six. I'd a four case. We're not talking about ancient history, and 540 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:40,199 we're not talking about a police department that is completely without resources, particularly since 541 00:34:40,199 --> 00:34:45,760 they called in the state and federal agencies almost from the very beginning. And 542 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:50,360 a lot of people don't understand why didn't the FBI do something about this, 543 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,519 because the FBI has no jurisdiction on it. It's just there as support. 544 00:34:53,639 --> 00:34:58,039 People have been tainted by television so much. Where the FBI shows up says 545 00:34:58,119 --> 00:35:00,840 we're in charge, now, local hicks go home, it just doesn't happen. 546 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:06,880 The FBI must be invited into the case unless there is a federal nexus, 547 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:08,679 and that federal nexus is actually rare and it usually has to do with 548 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:13,719 terrorism. Number one has to do with a child under twelve, or it 549 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,480 has to do with I think it's the Hobzact where you're doing this interstate crime 550 00:35:16,559 --> 00:35:20,880 so to speak. Like so somebody was kidnapped in Washington and then killed in 551 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,239 Idaho. Now we can come up with a federal mexices and then the FBI 552 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:27,719 could take over, or or I could happen on a reservation in the Indian 553 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,079 territory, then that's an automatic FBI case, right, But that's not the 554 00:35:30,119 --> 00:35:34,360 case in this respect. You bring them in to enhance your case. They 555 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:36,880 could give you the advice. That doesn't mean you have to listen to them. 556 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,119 And that's what I think he saw probably on some of these things. 557 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:47,079 It's painful to see them just through mishandling of evidence hand the defense all kinds 558 00:35:47,119 --> 00:35:54,039 of opportunities to chip away at the credibility of the prosecution and the investigative agencies. 559 00:35:54,599 --> 00:35:57,519 Of course, and that's what I always said, if I had hair, 560 00:35:57,559 --> 00:36:00,000 this is where I'd be pulling it out, because you're giving the opportunity 561 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:04,519 for people that shouldn't have an opportunity. Because some of the other evidence, 562 00:36:04,559 --> 00:36:07,679 as far as I'm concerned. It's pretty strong, and I know that everyone 563 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:09,159 is talking about, oh, the cell phone. Oh. The expert that 564 00:36:09,199 --> 00:36:12,760 they have is gonna tell him that he's on the other side of a mountain 565 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,000 with DC in that DC and Washington right in this park. And I try 566 00:36:16,039 --> 00:36:19,880 to explain to them, like, once again, your cherry picking information. 567 00:36:20,159 --> 00:36:24,119 If this expert comes into court and says your cell data is wrong, my 568 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:28,480 guy was a far away from the crime scene, then I would have to 569 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,679 say, okay, then explain to us why he was in I think was 570 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:37,440 Allentown where we have him at the Albertsons where his cell phone was pinging, 571 00:36:37,639 --> 00:36:39,239 and then he gets out of the car with the video surveillance and he's shopping 572 00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:42,679 for fifteen minutes. So you're telling me they were wrong on that too, 573 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,679 or they just happen to be right at one time. Right. The defense 574 00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:51,400 has to be real careful about what they say about this cell data because they 575 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,719 cannot totally do a scorched earth policy. They're gonna have to pick and choose, 576 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:58,400 and I think that hurts them. I think it really does hurt them 577 00:36:58,519 --> 00:37:01,719 because there are certain things that they can't deny based on their cell phone data. 578 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,079 I know there are people that will argue with me on this all day 579 00:37:05,079 --> 00:37:07,119 long, but I say they happen to be right once. Come on, 580 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:12,960 guys, we're talking about our very rural area. This technology is somewhat new, 581 00:37:13,039 --> 00:37:15,840 and yes there could be some mistakes. And everyone is talking about, 582 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:17,920 well, ping is not necessary this and that. Okay, I get it, 583 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:22,440 but the ping with video surveillance is pretty damning as far as I'm concerned. 584 00:37:23,079 --> 00:37:25,199 And then they say, what about the white car and this and that 585 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:29,360 is the one plate It's all going to come out. And I also try 586 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,639 to explain to people, because of the gag order, we only know probably 587 00:37:31,679 --> 00:37:37,639 twenty five percent of what the prosecution actually has. The defense is only going 588 00:37:37,679 --> 00:37:39,480 to bring out the things that benefit them, And people don't understand. It's 589 00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:44,360 either that the prosecutor can't say anything, but the defense could come out there 590 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:46,519 at whole court all he or she wants, and the defenses are going to 591 00:37:46,519 --> 00:37:50,119 bring up all of it because they have most of the discovery. Right they 592 00:37:50,119 --> 00:37:52,519 are arguing over certain parts of the discovery, they have the majority of it 593 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:55,599 that if you notice, they're only keying in on one thing, they're only 594 00:37:55,679 --> 00:37:59,119 key and in so far on the cell phone data. They haven't mentioned anything 595 00:37:59,159 --> 00:38:02,719 about the DNA though the IgG the investigative genetic genealogy. I think that hearing 596 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:06,880 comes up next week, but it's not going to be in an open court. 597 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:08,480 It's going to be closed. We won't hear about that. That's another 598 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:14,159 little tidbit, right some of these situations that you see this this Coburger case, 599 00:38:14,199 --> 00:38:17,480 especially if the IgG ghosts through. Idaho is a weird state because it's 600 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,679 not a Fry state, it's not a Doalbert state. It goes by the 601 00:38:20,679 --> 00:38:23,840 Federal rules of admissibility of evidence, and if people want to look up those 602 00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:29,119 Fry is what an E Fry and Dalbert those are the admissibility of evidence. 603 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:31,880 The Fry is a very strict standard. The only about twelve states use it. 604 00:38:32,199 --> 00:38:36,000 Dalbert is used by the majority of states, and there are some states 605 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,119 that use the hybrid version or the federal rules. And that becomes an important 606 00:38:39,119 --> 00:38:43,360 aspect of this case because the IgG, as we know, is pretty much 607 00:38:43,559 --> 00:38:45,519 brand new, so to speak, and they're using it now to identify a 608 00:38:45,559 --> 00:38:50,880 suspect who wasn't charged with anything. It was like almost like a guess kind 609 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:54,400 of thing. The garbage cover perfectly fine. US Supreme Court decision California versus 610 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:58,480 Greenwood. The cops can come and get your garbage right certain states. I 611 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:00,880 think New Jersey requires a warrant to get it. Everywhere else you could just 612 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:04,880 pick up anybody's garbage you want. So that's not going to be an issue 613 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,440 as far as I'm concerned. So I when I look at these cases, 614 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:09,639 guys, I look at him from the lens of if I'm the defense, 615 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:13,679 where am I going to go at from the investigations? Because the old rule 616 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,039 is if you can't fight the evidence, you fight the investigators. That's what 617 00:39:16,039 --> 00:39:19,559 we're seeing in the Read case, and I think that's what you're going to 618 00:39:19,599 --> 00:39:22,559 see in the Colburger case too, Because some of the evidence is very strong, 619 00:39:22,599 --> 00:39:23,719 you're not going to be able to get around it, so you go 620 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:29,199 after the investigators themselves. It's a textbook example of what's happened in Massachusetts right 621 00:39:29,199 --> 00:39:34,079 now. Speaking of cases with some problems, let's talk a little bit about 622 00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:37,639 the Long Island serial killer Goyogo Beach four case. I know we spoke with 623 00:39:37,679 --> 00:39:43,039 you last time you were Onmind over Murder. What's your take on the latest 624 00:39:43,079 --> 00:39:46,760 developments in that case? I was surprised, like a lot of people in 625 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:52,079 regards to this, because one of the pressers that I had watched the Districtory, 626 00:39:52,159 --> 00:39:54,559 Ray Tierney speak about when they asked him, are you going to be 627 00:39:54,599 --> 00:39:58,559 looking to tie other cases? And he didn't say it, but he said 628 00:39:58,559 --> 00:40:00,880 it like, we got the we got all kind of thing. We're going 629 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,360 to concentrate on these four and then basically after these cases are done, then 630 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,599 we can maybe look at other things. And I was a little disappointed in 631 00:40:07,639 --> 00:40:10,480 that because I thought that once you have somebody and now you've tied them pretty 632 00:40:10,559 --> 00:40:15,199 much with forensic evidence, I think the evidence is kind of overwhelming in this 633 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:17,840 case. This case is the other compared to the other two, I think 634 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:22,079 the evidence is insurmountable at this point. When I saw the searches that were 635 00:40:22,079 --> 00:40:28,920 happening in Manorville in the pine barrens, and it showed that they were looking 636 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:32,559 at specific locations because each time they went, each day they went to a 637 00:40:32,599 --> 00:40:38,280 different location. They weren't just looking and then just going west and this going 638 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:42,199 through all the woods they made they were getting in their cause they would drive 639 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,920 to another location. So to me, the information was really specific. And 640 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:50,199 then of course when you're looking at where this started, Manorville, Long Island 641 00:40:50,199 --> 00:40:54,320 and Supper County. You had the two partial remains of Jessica Taylor and Valerie 642 00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:58,440 Mack found not too far from where this was. So people say automatically, 643 00:40:58,519 --> 00:41:01,320 oh, this has to do with list. But it also then John Bittroff, 644 00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:06,679 who was another convicted killer who had killed two women, Rita ten Gritty 645 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,960 and Colleen mcnamine. Their bodies were found in Surely, but he lived near 646 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:14,119 Maniville right. So then because his name was in the news again recently too, 647 00:41:14,159 --> 00:41:16,079 about him trying to get his case thrown out, there was a lot 648 00:41:16,119 --> 00:41:20,400 of confusion, a lot of things happening on Long Island. With that, 649 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:22,239 you had the other body parts case in Babylon. My god, Long Island 650 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:27,679 is getting such quite the rep Yeah, it's interesting, but I was glad 651 00:41:27,679 --> 00:41:30,880 that they were doing this because they were showing that we were interested in finding 652 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,360 additional victims. Because this wasn't about oh, let me see if I could 653 00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,039 find some a weapon or a piece of evidence or something. They were looking 654 00:41:37,079 --> 00:41:42,320 for bodies. They had Cadavia dogs from Suffolk Nasaur the NYPD. So when 655 00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:45,360 you're bringing Cadavid dogs you're looking for bodies. They had some solid information that 656 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:51,079 there was potential victims found there wherever. That came through maybe a prisoner debriefing, 657 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,920 maybe a confidential informant withinside a prison, or maybe from one of the 658 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:59,840 prisoners themselves, who knows. It was just quite interesting and quite a good 659 00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:02,440 thing to see. And the only you haven't asked me this, but I'm 660 00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:07,840 gonna bring it up anyway. Good yeah, dude. In January, John 661 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:10,960 Ray, the attorney for the Gilbert family, held a symposium and he I 662 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,559 know, Johnny's he's a really nice guy and he really he's the one that 663 00:42:15,639 --> 00:42:17,400 really kept this case alike. A lot of people don't like him or whatever. 664 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:21,559 That's fine, but you can't take any credit from him in regards to 665 00:42:21,679 --> 00:42:25,119 keeping the Long Island serial killer case on the radar. Anyway. He held 666 00:42:25,119 --> 00:42:30,239 the symposium in January and Queens and he had a woman sign an APPI David 667 00:42:30,519 --> 00:42:34,800 that and the abidavit said that she saw James Burke, who is then the 668 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:38,800 police commissioner of the Suffer County Police Department, and Rick Sherman at a party 669 00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:44,760 together. So that was so when I heard the search from Manorville after the 670 00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,519 district attorney kind of pooh pooed searching for more people. I think he might 671 00:42:47,519 --> 00:42:52,320 have gotten spooked and saying if this Burke thing comes in, and because James 672 00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:54,440 Burke is the gift that keeps on giving for crying out loud. He's already 673 00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:59,559 a convicted felon. He got arrested again out in Suffolk County. We all 674 00:42:59,599 --> 00:43:01,599 know about his history and everybody there are a lot of people that thought he 675 00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:05,760 was the Long Island serial killer, which once again, that was another thing 676 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:08,480 that I fought tooth and nail all along because listen, I tell James Burke 677 00:43:08,559 --> 00:43:12,159 with a lot of things, killer was not one of them. I mean, 678 00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:14,599 there are so many people that hated this guy. Believe me, they'd 679 00:43:14,599 --> 00:43:16,639 been lining up to do him and drop a dime on him, and that 680 00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:21,440 never happened. So that kind of tells you exactly what people really thought about 681 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:22,239 it, because if they had the goods on him, believe me, they 682 00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:25,880 would have thrown him under the bus. They would have to need shoulder surgery. 683 00:43:27,199 --> 00:43:29,960 How many times they would have thrown him under the bus. Because cops 684 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:31,440 are a funny group, right, I know, people talked blue Wall of 685 00:43:31,559 --> 00:43:35,320 silence this and that, you know what, they don't tolerate this kind of 686 00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:37,920 stuff, and you're talking about somebody who was a serial killer. Believe me, 687 00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:39,800 if they had information, they would have did this guy for sure. 688 00:43:40,159 --> 00:43:43,559 I think that kind of spooked the district attorney, and all of a sudden 689 00:43:43,559 --> 00:43:46,039 boom, they were out searching for additional victims. And I think that was 690 00:43:46,199 --> 00:43:51,960 that the John Ray thing with this Eppen David became the fly in the ointment 691 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:55,199 because about two weeks or so, or three weeks somebody I know will fact 692 00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:58,239 check me and tell you was three weeks and one day, Joe, you 693 00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:02,960 were wrong, Hayter, who's gonna hay Yeah. Michael Brown, the attorney 694 00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:07,880 for the reck Sherman, came out instead and oppressor. We want the records 695 00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:12,320 for James Burke, the internal affairs, we want all his personal files, 696 00:44:12,599 --> 00:44:15,880 we want the FBI files on the investigation, and we want the district attorney, 697 00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:21,159 Tom Spoder's information. So I go there it is, folks, there's 698 00:44:21,199 --> 00:44:23,880 the reason why, because three weeks later now we're searching for additional victims. 699 00:44:24,199 --> 00:44:27,840 I think that really is the thing. Now. Could I be wrong? 700 00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:30,280 Of course I've been wrong before, But the issue that comes down to is 701 00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:34,880 they spent a lot of money in this search. They brought in outside agencies. 702 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:37,760 You had New York City bringing in dogs for five days. You think 703 00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:42,199 New York City's paying that bill. Yeah, no, they're not paying that 704 00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:45,119 bill. Suffer County's paying that bill. It's just a little interesting side note 705 00:44:45,159 --> 00:44:47,119 because a lot of people say, how did this all happen? And I 706 00:44:47,199 --> 00:44:51,039 think I just laid it out for you guys. This is how it happened. 707 00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:55,119 So you're saying that the renewed effort at search, which did end up 708 00:44:55,159 --> 00:45:01,639 finding additional bodies, that's directly as a result of them trying to expand this 709 00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:07,559 case and add additional potential charges. I think what they're trying to find as 710 00:45:07,639 --> 00:45:12,599 cases that they don't think they could tie them to Burke per Se or have 711 00:45:12,679 --> 00:45:16,199 Burke muddy the waters kind of thing for me if I was investigating this thing, 712 00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:20,760 and of course I'm not. I think the case with the biggest potential 713 00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:25,079 is peaches. Peaches was found in North Hempstead Lake State Park. He was 714 00:45:25,119 --> 00:45:29,039 found in a rubber Maid container. Any think it was green in color as 715 00:45:29,039 --> 00:45:31,079 a plastic containing you know one of those stories contains you buy at Walmart for 716 00:45:31,119 --> 00:45:35,119 five bucks to the put your clothes in that you're never going to wear again, 717 00:45:35,559 --> 00:45:37,679 and you put them in the attic because your wife told you to do, 718 00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:40,960 and you and there was a blanket and there was tape. Right that 719 00:45:42,119 --> 00:45:47,679 to me as the best chance of recovering DNA, and specifically they made a 720 00:45:47,679 --> 00:45:52,400 mistake. The FBI had gone out and said, listen, we're looking for 721 00:45:52,519 --> 00:45:53,800 we have a name. We think we know who this person is. And 722 00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:59,079 they went to the Mobile Alabama Police Department. In the Mobile Alabama Police Department 723 00:45:59,119 --> 00:46:05,159 put it on Facebook saying we're looking for these individuals tied to a case of 724 00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:09,280 and they put the tattoo of Peaches on there and so then Mobile Alabama became 725 00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:13,480 ground zero for peaches. Right, But they still have not named her. 726 00:46:13,599 --> 00:46:16,079 But I believe they know who she is. I believe from what I've read 727 00:46:16,119 --> 00:46:21,639 and heard that they also know who she is. Yeah, yeah, I 728 00:46:21,639 --> 00:46:22,920 think, like I said, that was like two years ago in October, 729 00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:25,360 I think would be three years. Yeah, if you're tell me they couldn't 730 00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:29,719 find who she was now even though they know what the town was, it's 731 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:31,800 I think we'd be kidding ourselves if they don't know it. But It's an 732 00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:36,760 important part of the investigation in regards to know who your victims are because then 733 00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:39,599 you can find out who or what put them in a position that they are 734 00:46:39,599 --> 00:46:42,599 in now, so to speak. Right, So, what was going on 735 00:46:42,639 --> 00:46:45,239 in their lives? Was it drugs, was it prostitution or a combination of 736 00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:49,360 both, or was their abuse at home? Right? All these things that 737 00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:52,519 you have to run into what made this person a victim? You're doing both 738 00:46:52,599 --> 00:46:57,079 kinds of victimology on this right. Who she was and what she was doing 739 00:46:57,119 --> 00:47:00,679 that put her in the position to become a victim, and that one kind 740 00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:04,199 of stuff. Yeah, Joe, are we going to see you at crime 741 00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:07,679 con here in just a couple of weeks. No, Unfortunately I didn't get 742 00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:10,840 invited this time around. But I actually worked in my favorite because it's my 743 00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:15,159 dad's ninetieth birthday. We're having a big bash and the whole family's gonna have 744 00:47:15,159 --> 00:47:16,639 a reunion and we're gonna be together for a number of days. So I 745 00:47:16,639 --> 00:47:20,519 wouldn't have been able to go anyway. Everything else, I'll be there in 746 00:47:20,559 --> 00:47:24,400 spirit and crime cons is fun time. I think if people get a chance 747 00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:29,000 to go, they should go if they're into this stuff, because it's like 748 00:47:29,039 --> 00:47:32,159 the thing to do for true crime. Well, they've announced a whole bunch 749 00:47:32,159 --> 00:47:36,519 of new guests even just in the last couple of hours that I'm very excited 750 00:47:36,559 --> 00:47:38,039 for. So I think it's gonna be a great year this year. We 751 00:47:38,039 --> 00:47:42,679 will miss seeing you there for sure. Yeah, it's always a fun time. 752 00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,280 And even if I was there this time, I would definitely if I 753 00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:49,199 had to choose only one thing to sit on, if I was only allowed 754 00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:52,239 to see one thing, because you guys know, when you're either a podcast 755 00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:54,400 host or you're doing stuff on the stage, you don't get a lot of 756 00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:59,800 time to see other people. For me, it would have been John Douglas. 757 00:48:00,519 --> 00:48:06,280 Yes, he was the one that I think we're the most excited about. 758 00:48:06,639 --> 00:48:09,159 He also, unfortunately, is the person we're up against. He's speaking 759 00:48:09,199 --> 00:48:13,159 at the same time we are. Rather we're speaking at the same time he 760 00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:15,679 is. The crowds are not going to go to us, They're going to 761 00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:19,559 go to John Douglas. It's a separate event, right, so you have 762 00:48:19,599 --> 00:48:22,679 to pay more for that. It's limited seating, so not everybody's going to 763 00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:24,199 get a ticket to get in, So that's the other thing that and there's 764 00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:28,079 five thousand people show up at this thing and they only have a few hundred 765 00:48:28,079 --> 00:48:30,639 tickets or whatever. They'll have plenty of time to come see you guys. 766 00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:36,199 We hope that is true. And Cheryl McCollum mack is asking our questions and 767 00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:39,519 she's amazing and oh I love show. We always have a great time with 768 00:48:39,639 --> 00:48:45,559 her, and she's so widely respected in the true crime space that she's one 769 00:48:45,559 --> 00:48:49,000 of the darlings I think of cheryld's great people. I just spent the whole 770 00:48:49,039 --> 00:48:52,800 weekend with her and Joe Scott Morgan. We were at the Hamptons, Who've 771 00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:55,079 done it. We were there for a whole four days doing the Long Island 772 00:48:55,119 --> 00:48:59,480 version of the crime con kind of thing, their second annual one. We 773 00:48:59,519 --> 00:49:00,840 had a great time. We had a lot of fun out in the Hamptons, 774 00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:05,119 the three of us. Yeah, yeah, I saw those photos and 775 00:49:05,519 --> 00:49:10,679 god, our friend Casey Sherman was out there as well. Yeah, yeah, 776 00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:15,559 Casey and I yeah, because Casey is the true crime chairperson and I'm 777 00:49:15,559 --> 00:49:17,679 the true crime consultant for the next year. So we talked. The guy's 778 00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:22,400 written I think eighteen books now, yeah, and maybe nineteen, I don't 779 00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:24,039 know as we speak, but yeah, he's amazing when it comes to that 780 00:49:24,039 --> 00:49:27,440 stuff. But he's a really nice guy too. We had breakfast the one 781 00:49:27,599 --> 00:49:30,760 one morning together. He's a real he's a real, genuine guy. You 782 00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:31,639 could sit and talk them. If you didn't know who he was, you 783 00:49:31,679 --> 00:49:35,599 would would never know. He's not pretentious in any way, and he just 784 00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:37,800 there talk to you and it's a good time. We will make sure that 785 00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:40,960 we tell Casey you said hello because we will be seeing him at Crime Con. 786 00:49:42,519 --> 00:49:45,280 Joe. It's a pleasure as always to talk to you and to hear 787 00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:47,679 your insight. Thank you so much for joining us today. We appreciate it. 788 00:49:49,079 --> 00:49:52,000 You're welcome. Guys, have a good one. Thanks. That's going 789 00:49:52,079 --> 00:49:54,239 to do it for this episode of mind Ever Murder. We'll see you next 790 00:49:54,280 --> 00:50:09,199 time. Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. 791 00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:15,519 Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is 792 00:50:15,519 --> 00:50:21,000 by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. Mind Over Murder 793 00:50:21,119 --> 00:50:25,400 is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, 794 00:50:25,599 --> 00:50:30,320 Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our page on the Colonial 795 00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:35,440 Parkway Murders on Facebook and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 796 00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:39,679 Bill Thomas. Five six. Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder.