1 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:38,039 What Up? What Up? Everybody? Welcome to another episode and let's ask 2 00:00:38,119 --> 00:00:41,399 Paul. My name is Paul Abernathy, your host for the podcast. Thanks 3 00:00:41,439 --> 00:00:46,280 for joining me. Hopefully you're listening on one of your favorite podcast listening platforms. 4 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:51,759 We're available on Spreaker, Deezer Podcast, Google Podcast, Apple Podcasts, 5 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:59,280 iHeartRadio, geez, let's see pod bean, dude. If you have a 6 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:03,119 favorite listening platform for your podcast. I have to use Spotify for most of 7 00:01:03,439 --> 00:01:07,519 my podcast listening moments. But whatever you're using, where are available, or 8 00:01:07,599 --> 00:01:11,040 of course you could listen on our mobile app, which is free. Just 9 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:15,480 go get it from NYC chat dot com. Download it. It's a free 10 00:01:17,239 --> 00:01:21,280 We don't put it up on the Google Store or the Apple Store because it's 11 00:01:21,359 --> 00:01:26,079 not something physical that you download right that we when we update it, you 12 00:01:26,079 --> 00:01:29,760 have to re download it again. We don't want to be that invasive into 13 00:01:29,799 --> 00:01:34,359 your system. Ours is progressive web apps, so you're basically just downloading a 14 00:01:34,519 --> 00:01:38,799 link and it puts an icon on your mobile device and you click it and 15 00:01:38,879 --> 00:01:44,120 it takes you to our app, which is simulated. It's not really on 16 00:01:44,159 --> 00:01:47,760 your phone, but it works just like it is, and so it's pretty 17 00:01:47,799 --> 00:01:51,079 neat it's the way that most people are moving today because it allows us to 18 00:01:51,079 --> 00:01:56,519 make changes, add new features, add new calculators, do other things without 19 00:01:56,599 --> 00:01:59,920 you ever having to download another bit of software. You just click it and 20 00:02:00,079 --> 00:02:02,480 it's always going to be updated for you, and you don't know any better. 21 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:06,319 It still works like an app. It runs on your phone like an 22 00:02:06,319 --> 00:02:10,280 app, but at the end of the day, you're not downloading any bloat 23 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:14,599 into your mobile device. And I'm big about that. Most people that know 24 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:16,000 me, I don't want to put crap like that on people's phones. So 25 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:21,120 now, if you do download it, remember to if it asks you to 26 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:23,560 add it to your home screen, say yes. If it asks if you 27 00:02:23,599 --> 00:02:27,039 want to get notifications, say yes. Every now and then we'll send a 28 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:30,520 notification. You can always delete it if you don't want it, but usually 29 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:34,439 it's something we're trying to share globally with all of our app users. So 30 00:02:34,479 --> 00:02:39,039 I encourage you to get that. All right, So let's do some Let's 31 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:46,599 ask PAULS. I guess I should say today's episode is sponsored by I guess 32 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:54,759 it would be our store over on the Fasttracksystem dot com website. So if 33 00:02:54,800 --> 00:03:00,240 you go to fas T t R A x S Y t EM. Of 34 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:05,919 course it'll be down in the description of this podcast. We have a store 35 00:03:06,039 --> 00:03:07,759 up there now and we have a bunch of goodies, a bunch of different 36 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:14,800 swag to show your master electrician or journeyman, Electricians Pride, minimalist wallets, 37 00:03:15,199 --> 00:03:19,479 all kinds of things, and we're constantly adding new things, so go check 38 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,560 it out. Of course, if you want a bigger array of goodies, 39 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:28,759 then you could go over to our Electrician Pride that's Electricianpride pr Ide dot Com 40 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,199 as well, and there's a lot more things over there, so we encourage 41 00:03:31,199 --> 00:03:35,879 you to go check that out. All right, let's answer some questions here 42 00:03:35,919 --> 00:03:38,599 that have been submitted, and as I've told you, I am trying my 43 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:42,680 best to catch up. I have got literally so many of these things that 44 00:03:42,719 --> 00:03:46,680 I can't count, and sadly I work for most recent backwards. So some 45 00:03:46,719 --> 00:03:51,719 of you that are the old ones you're having to wait, because again it 46 00:03:51,759 --> 00:03:53,400 doesn't sort them for me. I'm just kind of hitting them as I go, 47 00:03:54,199 --> 00:03:57,879 and so again just bear with me. I will get to you, 48 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,319 all right. Question is, hello, Paul, I have a question regarding 49 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:10,080 the grounding of e MT. If I'm going from the main service panel into 50 00:04:10,159 --> 00:04:14,039 an in phase solar inverter. So this is a micro inverters in phase makes 51 00:04:14,039 --> 00:04:15,199 those. They were the first ones to make those. I think other ones 52 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:19,600 now license their design, but they were the first ones micro inverters. So 53 00:04:19,639 --> 00:04:25,160 I'm going to these micro inverters, which they stayed are made out of plastic. 54 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:31,720 Do I need to use two ground bushings on both entrances or am I 55 00:04:31,759 --> 00:04:38,480 good with just ground bushings on the main service panel side? Thank you, 56 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:43,879 Thank you for your awesome and informative podcast. Okay, well, thank you 57 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,319 for the question. Now it sounds like since these are micro inverters, these 58 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:54,959 are just branch circuits going out to these microinverters. So I think that when 59 00:04:55,000 --> 00:05:00,680 it comes to the bonding them, if one in is like just open and 60 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,279 you bond one end, then you're actually bonding the raceway. I think it's 61 00:05:03,319 --> 00:05:08,680 fine. You're not using this to enclose a grounding electrode conductor because these are 62 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:13,199 still brand circuits, so you have an equipment ground in it that type of 63 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:16,319 thing. Now, what would be different is if you were using the EMT 64 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:21,439 as an equipment ground and again you're stopping at one end, then if you're 65 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:25,839 using the EMT as an equipment ground, then you're going to need to continue 66 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:30,439 it over to the connection point that maybe on the micronverter. So it's going 67 00:05:30,519 --> 00:05:34,079 to depend on how you're running the system. But if it's got an equipment 68 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:38,920 ground in there, and you're running it to the micro inverter and you ran 69 00:05:38,959 --> 00:05:42,519 an equipment ground, then really all you're doing with the EMT is bonding it, 70 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:46,560 and you're doing that at one end, and that's considered adequate for this 71 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:54,360 scenario. Okay, Again, you're not using this raceway as the enclosure for 72 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:58,360 a grounding electrode conductor where it would require you to bond both ends and those 73 00:05:58,399 --> 00:06:02,399 type of scenarios, so no problem involved in there. And again we don't 74 00:06:02,399 --> 00:06:05,319 have any other detail on what you may be doing at the other end, 75 00:06:05,759 --> 00:06:10,399 whether you're putting a junction box and then coming out of the junction box over 76 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:15,199 to whatever your microverters may be. So if that's the case, your equipment 77 00:06:15,199 --> 00:06:17,360 grounding conductor is going to be bonding that box as well at the end of 78 00:06:17,399 --> 00:06:21,639 that EMT. So it's the best I can gather from what you're what you're 79 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:27,800 stating, so I would think that you're fine on on the the end that's 80 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:32,519 connected to the service. And again I would assume that you, since you 81 00:06:32,519 --> 00:06:38,000 don't really state that it's a complete system, that you probably are running an 82 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:42,720 equipment grounding conductor with the circuits up to you, you know, from your 83 00:06:43,399 --> 00:06:46,600 in phase micro inverter. I'm assuming that's what you're doing. If not, 84 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:50,879 please feel free to clarify and re send something back and I will go into 85 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:57,319 more detail if necessary. Okay, all right, let's go on to another 86 00:06:57,439 --> 00:07:00,920 question that was submitted. It's says, hello, sir, can you clarify 87 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:06,399 this for me? I believe article three ten fifteen C one D and I 88 00:07:06,439 --> 00:07:12,560 believe that section three ten fifteen C one D one through four. Tell me 89 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:20,279 I can have ten twelve two MC cables bundled without derating. My inspector says, 90 00:07:20,639 --> 00:07:26,439 MC cable is like conduit. Once you have more than three current carrying 91 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:31,079 conductors, you have to d rate. Thanks Paul. Okay, let's tackle 92 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:34,959 this question. This does come up from time to time when people are talking 93 00:07:34,959 --> 00:07:40,360 about doing an adjustment. Now, remember when we say de rating, we're 94 00:07:40,439 --> 00:07:44,759 lumping a lot in that because d rating is not something that's in the NEC. 95 00:07:44,879 --> 00:07:48,000 It doesn't say de rating. It says adjustment or correction. So when 96 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:54,160 we're doing an adjustment, we're doing an adjustment for the number of current carrying 97 00:07:54,240 --> 00:08:03,920 conductors that exceed three. And when we're doing a U temperature correction, that's 98 00:08:03,959 --> 00:08:09,240 about an ambient temperature application, right. So in this case, what they're 99 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:13,759 referencing is in three ten fifteen C one, So this is where you have 100 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:18,680 more than three current current conductors. So we're going to kind of read this 101 00:08:20,519 --> 00:08:24,879 and uh and break this out. But the one that they're really focusing on 102 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:31,399 is D and I am looking at the twenty twenty three edition of the Nasometrical 103 00:08:31,439 --> 00:08:33,840 Code. In case you're following along, I'm going to read you the entire 104 00:08:33,879 --> 00:08:37,320 part of C one so they can kind of get the context of what we're 105 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:39,240 talking about, and then we'll shift to the MC, which is the question 106 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:43,759 in hand. Now. C one says more than three current car conductor says 107 00:08:43,799 --> 00:08:50,720 the apacity of each conductor shall be reduced as shown in table three ten fifteen 108 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:54,759 C one, And that is the actual table, folks, where you have 109 00:08:54,919 --> 00:08:58,279 four to six, seven to nine. You know that type of thing, 110 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:03,200 and you get a percentage that you're going to have in a multiplier. Okay, 111 00:09:03,159 --> 00:09:07,039 it says where the number of current car and conductors in a raceway or 112 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:13,360 cable exceed three. Now these are twelve two's, so keep that in mind. 113 00:09:13,039 --> 00:09:20,919 Or were single conductors or multi conductor cables not installed in a raceway? 114 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:24,240 So these MC cables one are not raceways, they're cables. So that's with 115 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:28,559 inspectors are a little off there, and I think I know what they're trying 116 00:09:28,639 --> 00:09:33,639 to say, but cables are not raceways right right, are installed without maintaining 117 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:41,080 spacing for continuous length longer than twenty four inches. And then it says each 118 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:45,679 current current conductor of a parallel set of conductors shall be counted as current carent 119 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:50,480 conductors. Right, So if you have a raceway with two sets of five 120 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:54,080 hundred kc MIL, then two of the phase A, two of the phase 121 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,879 B, two of the phase C for example, all of those are considered 122 00:09:56,879 --> 00:10:01,679 current carr and conductors even though they're in parallel. Right, So phase A 123 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,240 would have two current carr and conductors, Phase B would have two current caring 124 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:07,720 conductors, Face C would have two current carrying conductors. And it could be 125 00:10:07,759 --> 00:10:13,559 possible that the grounded neutral conductor is a current caring conductor. But that's for 126 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:16,960 a whole other episode. So let's kind of dig into this a little bit. 127 00:10:16,159 --> 00:10:22,080 So it goes on to say, where conductors of different systems as provided 128 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:26,799 in three hundred dot three are installed in a common raceway or cable, it 129 00:10:26,919 --> 00:10:31,120 just reminds us that the adjustment factors shown in three ten fifteen C one, 130 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:37,320 which is the table, shall apply only to the power and the lighting conductors, 131 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:41,759 not to the control. Okay, so it's not going to apply to 132 00:10:41,799 --> 00:10:48,320 those zero to ten control type of conductors, only to the power and lighting 133 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:52,840 that you would have this apply. Now, if you go down, you're 134 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:58,200 going to see that there's an A A B, A C A d uh 135 00:10:58,279 --> 00:11:01,679 in this application, and so we're going to be focusing on D now. 136 00:11:01,799 --> 00:11:05,559 D says, Okay, look, I get the rule we just talked about. 137 00:11:05,879 --> 00:11:11,200 It says, I get it that if you have these MC cables and 138 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:15,000 they're bundled and all this, that you've got to do something if it's more 139 00:11:15,039 --> 00:11:18,240 than three current car conductors. But here's what it says. It says the 140 00:11:18,279 --> 00:11:28,000 adjustment factors shall not apply to type AC cable or type MC cable under the 141 00:11:28,039 --> 00:11:31,159 following conditions. So you have to meet these conditions, and if you do, 142 00:11:31,279 --> 00:11:37,440 then you can ignore Table three ten fifteen C one. You can just 143 00:11:37,519 --> 00:11:41,759 ignore it. Now, I'll remind you folks, you can't ignore the correction 144 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:48,360 for ambient temperature. This is only to ignore the adjustment factor for where you 145 00:11:48,399 --> 00:11:52,759 may have more than three current carr and conductors or bundling involved for MC cable 146 00:11:52,879 --> 00:11:56,480 or AC cable. Hey, I think it's important. Remember you could be 147 00:11:56,759 --> 00:12:00,080 installing it in an area inside of a building where you have an elevated to 148 00:12:00,159 --> 00:12:05,320 ambient temperature and you're not gonna apply the adjustment factor for the number of current 149 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:11,600 carent conductors because of this allowance. But you still have an ambient temperature that 150 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:13,799 you have to take into consideration, and that would be three ten fifteen B 151 00:12:13,919 --> 00:12:16,879 one one. Okay, So I just want to make that clear. This 152 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:22,840 is only giving you a bit of a reprieve when it comes to adjustment factors 153 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:26,360 for AC or MC cable. Now let's look at these conditions. So in 154 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:31,960 order to be able to ignore Table three ten fifteen C one for MC and 155 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:35,840 AC cable, number one to cable do not have an overall outer jacket, 156 00:12:35,919 --> 00:12:41,360 so no PBC extruded covering. Okay, So it's not gonna hold in the 157 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:45,919 heat. Okay, it's gonna allow those conductors to heat, and it's gonna 158 00:12:45,919 --> 00:12:50,720 allow the armor to act as a radiant to help dissipate out the heat. 159 00:12:50,879 --> 00:12:56,159 Okay, fine, it's not covered any outer jacket number two. Each cable 160 00:12:58,159 --> 00:13:01,159 has not more than three current carrying conductors. Now, in our example, 161 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:05,600 the gentleman said it was a twelve to two MC. So it's going to 162 00:13:05,639 --> 00:13:07,840 have twelve two black and a white. It's going to have an equipment ground 163 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:13,000 which could be bear or insulated, depends on the manufacturer. The standard UL 164 00:13:13,039 --> 00:13:18,960 fifteen sixty nine allows either. Most of US manufacturers will go on and do 165 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:22,720 an insulated equipment ground because there's other aspects of the code where we want it 166 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:26,840 to be insulated. So it just saves in production. But the standard would 167 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:31,399 allow us to do it bear or insulated. In fact, when you get 168 00:13:31,519 --> 00:13:35,279 larger MC, I mean the bigger stuff, you know the four ought, 169 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:39,080 the five hundred kc mil two fifty k, then typically we just go on 170 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:46,480 and use a bear equipment ground. And that's perfectly okay, right aightem Number 171 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:50,840 one permits it to be bear covered or insulated, so it ends up being 172 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:56,159 a manufacturer's preference in how they want to produce it, right, Okay, 173 00:13:56,519 --> 00:14:00,000 So in this case, we don't have more than three current current conductors, 174 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:03,360 so this guy does not. And then the next one is item three. 175 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:07,399 It says the conductors are twelve awg copper, so this only applies that the 176 00:14:07,399 --> 00:14:13,159 conductors are twelve and like they said in their question, it was ten twelve 177 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:18,120 two MC cables. Okay, fine, and then it says number four says 178 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:26,039 not more than twenty current carrent conductors are installed without maintaining spacing, are stacked 179 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:30,399 or supported on bridal rings, so they're all kind of bundled together. Okay, 180 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:33,879 So how many do we have? So if we have ten twelve two 181 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:39,399 MC cables mc metal clad, then the only two conductors in this that are 182 00:14:39,399 --> 00:14:43,120 current carrying is the black and the white. Okay, So that neutral conductor 183 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,080 is considered a current carrying because what goes out has come back in theory, 184 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:50,480 okay, kind of the you know how it works, And so the white 185 00:14:50,519 --> 00:14:54,919 is considered in this case in a twelve to two a current carring conductor. 186 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:58,320 So since there's ten of them, so it's just ten times two and that 187 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:05,320 is twenty current care and conductors. Now we don't count the equipment ground as 188 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:07,840 a current carent conductor. And where do we get that language? Well, 189 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:15,559 that language to us comes in F. If you just scroll down a little 190 00:15:15,559 --> 00:15:20,159 bit, then you're looking at three ten dot fifteen and you're going down to 191 00:15:20,039 --> 00:15:24,240 F. It says grounding and bonding conductors. It says grounding and bonding conductors 192 00:15:24,279 --> 00:15:28,679 shall not be counted when applying the provisions of three ten fifteen C. One. 193 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:31,519 So we rule that out. So only thing we've got is the blacks 194 00:15:31,519 --> 00:15:35,159 and the whites in this one, and so that's twenty overall current carr and 195 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:39,799 conductors. Right, So going back up here, it looks like we meet 196 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,200 item number one in D. It looks like we meet item number two, 197 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:48,919 number three, they're all twelve gage and number four. There's not more than 198 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:52,240 twenty. We have twenty. We don't have twenty one, which would be 199 00:15:52,279 --> 00:16:00,200 more than twenty. We've got twenty. So in this scenario, we are 200 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:03,919 done. So to answer your question, you do not have to take into 201 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:11,279 account any adjustment factors due to this bundling, because you're utilizing the allowance in 202 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:18,360 three ten fifteen C. One D as you so accurately stated in your question. 203 00:16:18,919 --> 00:16:22,519 So your boss or your inspector is incorrect. Now, there is a 204 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:27,519 provision, folks where you can have an exception. If you have more than 205 00:16:27,559 --> 00:16:33,000 twenty, you still have to meet D one, two and three. But 206 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:36,960 four says, you know what if you meet all of the others, but 207 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:40,879 you end up having more than twenty current car conductors, well, then what 208 00:16:40,919 --> 00:16:45,440 we're gonna do is we're going to let you use a sixty percent adjustment factor. 209 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:48,960 And so again, ultimately be honest with you, that's gonna end up 210 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:52,320 being a situation where your twelve gauge is not worth twenty amps anymore because of 211 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:56,600 this adjustment, and that's probably not what you're gonna do. So the thing 212 00:16:56,639 --> 00:16:59,679 you want to do is, if you're gonna bundle, make sure you separate 213 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:04,920 these out and that you don't exceed more than twenty current carring conductors in any 214 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:11,559 bundle application, whether it's on bridle rings or you're installing them in a tray 215 00:17:11,759 --> 00:17:15,880 or whatever you're doing. Okay, And so it's really it's about your design 216 00:17:15,559 --> 00:17:21,200 and doing a little care up front in how you run your design. But 217 00:17:21,279 --> 00:17:26,000 that again, that's that's quite a few mc cables bundled together, and you're 218 00:17:26,039 --> 00:17:30,640 able to simply ignore an adjustment factor in this scenario if you meet all the 219 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,440 caveats in D one, D two, dot three, excuse me, D 220 00:17:33,559 --> 00:17:38,759 one, D two, D three, and D four of three ten fifteen 221 00:17:40,039 --> 00:17:44,599 C one makes sense. Okay, So that answers that question. So you 222 00:17:44,599 --> 00:17:49,119 are absolutely right. Your inspector is incorrect in this application, and based on 223 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,279 everything that you've given to me, I think you're you're perfectly okay. Again, 224 00:17:52,319 --> 00:17:56,400 don't forget about ambient temperatures, but as far as the adjustment part of 225 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:02,559 it factors, then I think you're okay. Okay, let's see here. 226 00:18:02,599 --> 00:18:06,799 We got another question that we'll try to tackle, and let's see if we 227 00:18:06,839 --> 00:18:11,799 can get this here. It says Hi Paul, I'm getting conflicting answers on 228 00:18:11,839 --> 00:18:15,799 this and would like you to weigh in. Says I have a one and 229 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:23,119 a quarter rigid threaded close nipple that is entering into a concentric knockout on a 230 00:18:23,319 --> 00:18:30,839 meter socket. Okay. Says this nipple carries feeders, two phase conductor connectors. 231 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,359 I think you meant conductors, and a grounded conductor and an equipment grounded 232 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:41,319 conductor from the load side of the main overcurre protective device to a basement subpanel. 233 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:47,559 My question is do I need a bonding bushing installed on this nipple as 234 00:18:47,599 --> 00:18:49,240 it enters the meter socket. Now there's a couple of things I'm gonna have 235 00:18:49,279 --> 00:18:53,839 to point out here because this is where a question can get very confusing, 236 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:57,960 and I'm gonna explain why. So the listener is going to get the best 237 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:02,640 that I can give them here because I've got two different things going on here. 238 00:19:02,839 --> 00:19:04,160 And if you've listened to me before, you know what I'm talking about 239 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:07,079 here, and I'm going to read the last part it says this is a 240 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:12,440 residential service with the voltage that is less than two hundred and fift volts to 241 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:17,640 ground. Enjoy your podcast. Thanks, okay, thank you for listening to 242 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:19,039 the podcast. So we got a couple of things going on. First of 243 00:19:19,039 --> 00:19:25,640 all, you said that it's going from the meter socket, so that tells 244 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:29,839 me that those are service conductors. But then you go on to say the 245 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,440 nipple carries the feeders, which is two phase conductors, a ground a conductor 246 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:40,640 and an equipment grounding conductor, which tells me it can't be the service But 247 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:47,000 then at the end, you end up saying that it's for the load side 248 00:19:47,039 --> 00:19:52,000 of the main overcurrent protected device to the basement subpanel, which again brings me 249 00:19:52,079 --> 00:19:56,839 back to sounding like it's a feeder. So I am confused. So the 250 00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:00,960 easiest thing for me to do is just give you the code rule, and 251 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:04,279 you determine whether or not you're dealing with service conductors or you're dealing with fears. 252 00:20:04,519 --> 00:20:10,680 How about that? Okay, So now if you're dealing with service conductors, 253 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:12,359 you're going to be in two fifty ninety two. There's an A and 254 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:18,200 there's a B, and A just kind of reminds us that those normally non 255 00:20:18,279 --> 00:20:22,480 current carrying metal parts, okay, have to all be bonded together, and 256 00:20:22,519 --> 00:20:26,640 that is raceways. And your nipple is a raceway. They just short one, 257 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:32,640 but it is a raceway and it contained if it contains service conductors, 258 00:20:33,839 --> 00:20:37,759 then again all of those non current carrying metal parts have to be bonded together. 259 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:41,480 Now, one of the things about that is you end up getting into 260 00:20:41,559 --> 00:20:44,839 b which says, okay, well, how do I do that? How 261 00:20:44,839 --> 00:20:51,039 do I method of bonding at the service. So if you have concentric or 262 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:56,039 eccentric KOs, okay, and I believe you stated you do, then let's 263 00:20:56,039 --> 00:21:00,920 read what it says. It says bonding jumpers meeting the requirements of this article 264 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:11,240 shall be used around impaired connections, such as reducing washers or oversized concentric or 265 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:17,759 eccentric KOs. Standard lock nuts or bushings shall not be the only means for 266 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:22,720 bonding required by this section, but shall be permitted to be installed to make 267 00:21:22,759 --> 00:21:27,279 a mechanical connection of the race ways, so mechanically connecting everything together. The 268 00:21:27,319 --> 00:21:32,440 locknuts are fine, but you can't rely on standard lock nuts in order to 269 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:36,839 make that what we used to call kind of an assured bonding application. So 270 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:41,559 if you have concentric or eccentric KOs, then what it's going to tell me 271 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:48,319 is that you're going to need a bonding jumper. Okay, So that's what 272 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:51,759 it says, and be if you're dealing with service conductors. Okay, so 273 00:21:51,839 --> 00:21:59,240 that's the first part. Now, if you're not encountering a concentric or eccentric 274 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:03,599 KO right in that scenario, it's just a punch hole. You punch it 275 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:08,000 yourself. Then there are other means, other things that you can use, 276 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:12,680 like bonding type block nuts, you know, things like that. So there 277 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:15,960 are other methods that you can do here. You may have a hub that 278 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:22,359 you're going into or something like that. But if you're encountering an impairments such 279 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:26,920 as centric KOs or even a reducing washer. By the way, if you 280 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:30,279 were to do a reducing washer and for tholkse that don't know, when you 281 00:22:30,559 --> 00:22:33,839 have those KOs and you're gonna, let's say, do a reducing washer, 282 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:38,119 you need to remove all of the rings. That's what those reducing washers are 283 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:41,880 design. They're not designed to work with the rings. They're designed to work 284 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,559 without the rings. And so you use the reducing washer and they go in 285 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:49,079 place of the rings. Even then that's still an impairment as far as this 286 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,200 rule I just read to you, and you're going to need a bonding jumper. 287 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:57,240 Now again, if you happen to come in and you're not dealing with 288 00:22:57,319 --> 00:23:04,279 any of those impairments right then what you'd be utilizing is other options. And 289 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:11,519 before has other options like other listed devices such as again bonding type locknut bonding 290 00:23:11,559 --> 00:23:15,880 you know the bushings, bushings with bonding jumpers. Okay, those laning like 291 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:22,599 you have other options, but again you can't use standard locknuts only from mechanical 292 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:30,440 and if you encounter concentric, eccentric, or oversized knockouts, then electrical continuity 293 00:23:30,559 --> 00:23:34,079 must be ensured, and you need to install a bonding jumper. And this 294 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:37,440 is going to be a supply side bonding jumper because that's on the service side, 295 00:23:37,519 --> 00:23:42,720 the line side. Okay, all right, so that's important. So 296 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:48,119 that is if we're dealing with services. Okay, Now in your case, 297 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:53,519 if you're not dealing with services, then you're dealing with two fifty ninety six, 298 00:23:53,559 --> 00:23:57,519 which is bonding other enclosures. Now you said that what you're dealing with 299 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,079 is not over two hundred and fifty volts to ground, So a one twenty 300 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:06,799 two forty volt is not over uh, two hundred fifty voltes to ground one 301 00:24:07,759 --> 00:24:11,960 one twenty to ground. It's two forty phase to phase. So you're going 302 00:24:11,039 --> 00:24:14,480 to be in if it's a feeder, then you're going to be in two 303 00:24:14,559 --> 00:24:18,319 fifty ninety six. And what that states, it says the general says metal 304 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:22,759 race ways, and that's what you have, okay. Uh, cable trays, 305 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:29,119 cable armor, cable sheathing, enclosures, frames, fittings, and other 306 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:34,000 metal non current carrying parts that are to serve as equipment ground A conductor or 307 00:24:34,039 --> 00:24:40,880 with or without the use of a wire type supplementary equipment. Ground conductor shall 308 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:48,519 be bonded if necessary to ensure electrical continuity and the capacity to conduct fault current 309 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:53,920 likely to be imposed on them. Okay, so at this point, locknuts 310 00:24:53,920 --> 00:25:02,039 would typically be fine. Now, if that is a nipple that is rigid, 311 00:25:02,599 --> 00:25:06,039 then you're gonna have a locknut on the inside and a locknut on the 312 00:25:06,039 --> 00:25:10,640 outside. So you're gonna have mechanically right, but you're gonna have it done 313 00:25:10,799 --> 00:25:15,000 that way. Uh, and that's how you're gonna basically installing. That makes 314 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:23,640 sense. Hopefully that makes sense in the application and any really at that end, 315 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,680 at that point you don't because you think about it. If you're if 316 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:32,119 you're throwing thread at the nipples, for example, it's a raceway, and 317 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:34,599 you only put the threading on the inside because there's no fitting, then it's 318 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,119 common sense you're gonna have to need a locknut on the outside as well. 319 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:41,680 Otherwise it's just no way it's gonna work. It should be common sense. 320 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,039 But anyway, but again, the lock nuts in this point can be fine. 321 00:25:45,079 --> 00:25:48,160 Now, if you have any paint that needs to be removed so that 322 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:52,799 the or you have locknuts that dig down into the metal. Okay, you're 323 00:25:52,799 --> 00:25:56,279 done, But that's a feeder. So that's the difference. So for you, 324 00:25:56,279 --> 00:25:59,079 you're gonna be looking at two fifty that ninety two if it's a service 325 00:25:59,079 --> 00:26:03,720 conductors in this raceway slash nipple, or if it's feeders, you're going to 326 00:26:03,759 --> 00:26:10,720 be looking at two fifty ninety six for your application. So hopefully that answers 327 00:26:10,759 --> 00:26:14,000 that question for you. That's about the best I can give you, because 328 00:26:14,039 --> 00:26:18,000 again, your question kind of gives me the notion that we're talking services, 329 00:26:18,039 --> 00:26:21,880 and then the next minute it's talking feeders, and you describe the circuit with 330 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,200 an equipment ground, so that sounds like a feeder. So I figured it's 331 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,799 best that I give you both. How about that. Okay, we got 332 00:26:27,799 --> 00:26:30,319 another question here, and this is a long one, and I'm not going 333 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,839 to answer the entire question because it goes into a scenario on a job site, 334 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:38,480 and for liability reasons, I'm not going to get into your design and 335 00:26:38,559 --> 00:26:41,400 what may or may not be happening here. I'm going to get into the 336 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:47,599 crux of your main question, and that should answer the other part of your 337 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,799 question. Again, this one's difficult because it does get into questions about designs. 338 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,519 So let me just answer this question here. It says, when would 339 00:26:55,599 --> 00:27:02,720 I be required to treat a generator as a separately drive system or is it 340 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:07,599 always an option one hundred percent of the time at least as far as the 341 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:11,839 a NEEC is concerned. Okay, So a separately drive system, for if 342 00:27:11,839 --> 00:27:15,240 you have a standalone generator, then it's always a separately drive system. If 343 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:19,559 it's a standalone generator. Now, if the generator is tied to the building, 344 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:25,079 for example, then it's all going to be whether or not the grounded 345 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:29,839 conductor is switched or not. If it's not switched, then it's not separately 346 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:34,920 drive. If the grounded conductor, which in most many cases is a neutral, 347 00:27:36,279 --> 00:27:41,759 if that is switched in the transfer, then it's kind of totally isolated 348 00:27:41,799 --> 00:27:45,000 except for grounding and bonding applications. Right, But as far as the ungrounded 349 00:27:45,039 --> 00:27:51,160 conductors as well as the grounding there's actually a separation or a break between the 350 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:56,480 generator through that ats or transfers, then you're going to have a separately drived 351 00:27:56,519 --> 00:28:00,119 system. Okay, And we have a definition and in the twenty twenty three 352 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:04,640 of a separately drive system. So that's a separately drive system. Now, 353 00:28:06,599 --> 00:28:10,119 like with whether it's a big system or small system, if I have a 354 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:15,680 generator connected to a building in the transfer switch has a solid grounded point, 355 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:22,279 it's not being switched, then it is not a separately drive system. It's 356 00:28:22,319 --> 00:28:29,160 another piece of equipment. It's just another for lack of a better explanation, 357 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:30,880 it's like another range, even though it's not a range. We know that, 358 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:36,599 but it's just another piece of equipment. Okay. And so obviously there's 359 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:40,640 rules for generators. We won't get into that in this episode, but that's 360 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:45,440 the key thing when you're talking about a generator. Is it standalone, then 361 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:52,359 it's got to be separately drived. If it's If it has a transfer switch 362 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,920 and it's switching the neutral, then it's a separately drive system. If it 363 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:03,279 is not switching the neutral, then it is not a separately drive system. 364 00:29:03,519 --> 00:29:07,559 Does it makes sense? Okay? And of course, as far as the 365 00:29:07,599 --> 00:29:11,759 code concern is, once you know whether or not to treat it as a 366 00:29:11,759 --> 00:29:15,160 separate drive system or not, is going to end up answering a lot of 367 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:19,599 other questions that you may have. Whether or not ground a grinding electrode system 368 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:25,160 is required for it or if it's not whether or not you're putting ground rods 369 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:30,519 at a generator just because the manufacturer of the generator wants you to, or 370 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,920 if you're required to do it. All those type of things start to come 371 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:40,039 into play depending So hopefully that answers that part of the question. Again, 372 00:29:40,119 --> 00:29:45,160 I'm sorry I can't get into the long answer because you went into a very 373 00:29:45,279 --> 00:29:51,759 long email and it would get more into me giving you design advice, and 374 00:29:51,839 --> 00:29:55,599 I can't do that for legal reasons. I can't give you design advice unless 375 00:29:55,640 --> 00:30:00,599 I had you under any contractual agreement for my consulting services. I answer a 376 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,039 lot of things on Let's Ask Paul, but I try not to design things 377 00:30:03,039 --> 00:30:07,640 for people. That's up to them to do that. Okay, all right, 378 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,319 folks, Well that's going to end it for today. That's quite a 379 00:30:10,319 --> 00:30:14,160 bit over thirty minutes of Let's Ask Paul. I have a many many more 380 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,279 I have to get to and I will get to those. But I do 381 00:30:17,359 --> 00:30:19,559 thank you all for listening. Again. You can submit your questions to me 382 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,240 by just going to Paul Abernathy dot com. You may or you may not 383 00:30:23,319 --> 00:30:29,640 agree with my interpretation. That's again, that's the beautiful thing about the code. 384 00:30:30,079 --> 00:30:32,759 So again, if you go on the Internet, you'll see that many 385 00:30:32,839 --> 00:30:37,079 people have different opinions and interpretations of certain things about the National Let's Go Code. 386 00:30:37,119 --> 00:30:38,400 It is what it is. I do my best to bring my years 387 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,559 of knowledge together to try to help answer those questions for you. It's a 388 00:30:41,559 --> 00:30:45,359 free service sponsored by Wicks, So all you got to do is go to 389 00:30:45,359 --> 00:30:49,279 Paul Abernathy dot com and I am more than happy to tackle the questions for 390 00:30:49,319 --> 00:30:52,480 you. Until next time, folks, stay safe, God bless and hope 391 00:30:52,519 --> 00:31:22,119 you have a wonderful holiday asball boot both Aspallo Nothing Mask Nothing