Welcome back to this episode of Superhero Ethics, where we are continuing our conversation
about Avatar. It turns out that a three season television show that had massive
effects on all of us and is considered one of the most impactful of the
last twenty or thirty years, we couldn't really wrap up all of in an
hour. We are committed to doing the second half also in only an hour,
so we'll do as much as we can. There's a whole lot we're
going to put on the table, but that's why I am, and I
think Paul Is and possibly Riki going to be back here to talk to you
about the live acting show as it's coming out, during which we'll probably talk
a lot about the third the animated again. So let's move out to some
of the other characters. We're not going to give them quite as much time,
but I want to talk for a bit about Soccer because Socca is a
character who I do think is very essential to this story, and I think
that his sexism misogyny at the beginning of the show is essential because I think
that in you know, misogyny is obviously very real sex and is very real,
and the way that it plays out for him as he is the kind
of like the goofy guy, the jokes guy, the geeky guy, but
he's also the one who's the most overtly sexist, you know, specifically saying
like, oh, girls can't fight, having this attitude that girls, you
know, should be able to fight as good as he is. It is
very representative of things that are in our culture at the time that the show
came out, and are still very much in our culture at the time that
the show is happening now at this new time. They're certainly very prevalent in
the sort of card game and geeky worlds that Rieky and I have spent so
much time. In my imagination is that they're still very much a part of
a lot of martial arts worlds that Paul has been a lot more time in
poker and chess. Yeah, very much so. But I remember feeling,
even when I watched the show that it was so on the nose, it
was so over the top that to me, it felt like to me,
the part is one of the great things about his character is that very quickly,
in like episode four, Suki kicks his ass, and even by the
end of that episode, he's like, Nope, I was wrong. You
should train me. And then those attitude never really appear again. And I
think that it's such an important character, and he becomes a very important character,
and his respect for women, I think it's really shown. But it
felt to me then and I think even more so to me now. I
want that plot line there, but I feel like I wanted to be a
lot more subtle in terms of just because I sometimes feel when somebody's presented as
being sexist or racist or any of those things, part of the point should
be for people to examine themselves and wonder if they're doing the same thing,
and if they're so over the top, then it's very easy for people to
be like, oh, I'm not racist like that guy, so I must
not be racist. What's your take on what you'd want to see from a
live action version of Sokka, especially that aspect of him. Hm hmm.
I think it's kind of tied. His sexism at the beginning is tied into
his feelings about his sister, right, because obviously his sister is a woman,
but she is also a bender and he is not. And I think
this is also like a key part of his character is that he doesn't have
powers like everyone else in the in the crew does, so like it reminds
me of, gosh, it's been so long Xander Xander and Buffy the Vampire
Slayer. He has a whole episode devoted I think called the Zeppo named after
Zeppo Marx as like the secondary character who's like not as important or well known
as everyone else, but gosh darnett, they're here too and they are important.
Is the key as well. Sokka becomes the leader, he comes up
with the plan to invade the Fire Nation, so it's like and he also
like learns how to sword fight from from a master, but that's part of
his journey, is like not only letting go of the sexism, but letting
go of his jealousy and his feelings of inadequacy about not being able to bend.
So I think they're closely tied together, right, So in that way,
when you say that, like Suky defeating him, he kind of needs
to feel that he's at least the best of the non vendors, and so
another non vendor defeating him in a fight who is a woman, that that
kind of is like even more than he can take. Yeah, I think
it's all intertwined, like it's it's very hard to separate at all. Yeah,
I mean, I do feel like that's that's an important part of Sokka's
character in the show. I think it didn't necessarily have to be, but
that's the choice they made, right, Yeah, you know, I mean,
it's a fantasy world, so it's like it doesn't have to be patriarchical,
like it's not. It's not. It's inspired by various real world cultures,
but it's not meant to be a representation representation of any single or specific
cultures really per se. So I think, you know, you could do
without that. I think his sense of humor, which they completely excized from
the live adaptation, the first one I think, to me, yeah,
yeah, there's like there's like call it out several times in the show.
They're like, he's the funny one. Like even like I think Zuko mentions
it as well, like as the enemy, like he knows he's the right,
he knows that that's the funny one exactly, and so like, I
feel like that's an aspect of the character you you really can't remove. But
I do think in order to remove the sexism, I think you would have
to probably kind of have to remove it from the culture in a way where
it feels like the men are the fighters, right and the women look after
the village, kind of like that's that's how they and maybe the hunters and
whatever, and that's like that's the culture and like that's that's especially that didn't
come up with the sexism on his own. They specifically call out that the
men left to go fight, right, and then later granted this is with
the Northern Water tribe, not the southern, but it seems like they're not
that different. Katara is told she can't be a bender because she's a woman,
so right, yeah, yeah, warrior, like she has to use
her bending for for healing, that's right, right, yeah, yeah,
yeah, the guy doesn't want to train her, yeah, in that regard,
right. Yeah. I think it's all very true, and I think
I'm sorry, no, I was just going to say so, I feel
like having that in there, I think is good. It's not Zuko's redemption
arc. I do view it as like a redemption arc. I mean,
it's something he learned from his culture that like we look at as like a
negative thing. The way Zuko learned that the Fire Nation is great and should
go around conquering everybody, you know, and he unlearns it. But and
but it's like it is quicker and it doesn't have the same struggle and it
doesn't have the same but you know, but but I think Riki's right that
in terms of kind of coming to peace with his relationship with Katara, because
I think he's the older brother, right, but like she kind of like
mom's him, you know, So I think there's probably some kind of and
he's not a bender, and so like I think there's some kind of feelings
of inadequacy or whatever, and he has to get over all of that and
and mature and he does, and I think he has a nice arc overall,
but he definitely, you know, is played like more of a secondary
character. So he just doesn't get as much the way Sabine learning to use
the dark Saber. You know. I was like, this is cool.
I think this episode's great, But like she doesn't get, you know,
a whole series to be learning stuff. Socca doesn't get a whole series to
be like learning to not be overtly misogynist. You know. He he gets
an episode that's that's kind of the way it is with secondary characters. Most
of the time, he gets an episode to learn sword fighting as well,
which is all That's how a lot of the training in this series is very
rushed. YEA, literally I think spent two days or wasn't only one day
to get a sword fight? Yeah. Iiro becomes a bodybuilder. It seems
like in a couple of days he might have been in he might have been
in there for a while though, I think that's a little less. But
that's the seed of the show. Yeah, we had we know, the
whole show takes place in six months right there for the maximum three days.
Yeah, but I would buy Shredded by Iro as a workout play successful.
I will say, though we were to seeing that, by the way,
and live action, do we want that transformation? I'm I mean that's one
of the few casting notes I know, and I'm yes, I want to
see that. I want to see to what extent that is nervous about it
because I want them to have cast to have your actor not a thin actor
in a fat suit. And I don't know how you could show it without
him like being it can just get in shape, you could like Chris Pratt
it. Yeah, I've been doing that over the course of filming year.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, But here's here's the the heck was I talking
about. We're talking about I'm always going to bring it back to Iro,
right, and I'm going to bring it back to Ang. So sorry,
Matthew, fine, But the point being that the whole show is really showing
actually several characters, but especially ag learning a lot of things, but over
a lot of episodes right there, there is a lot of learning that is
like almost the theme of the show is like, you know, learning and
acquiring skills and at the same time learning how one should use those skills or
how how do you choose to use those skills, and so Aang and then
Katara also in terms of pursuing her water bending, they get they get a
lot of little bits along the way where you can see sort of incremental progress.
I mean, Ang's already kind of like an airbending master at the beginning,
right, but like he's got to pick up these other bending skills,
and katar is more of a water bending novice, and she's really developing that
skill over three seasons. So I think they really get the full you know,
Ezra Bridger treatment. Whereas you know, Sokka gets more of a Sabine
Wren. Yeah, I just going back to the main question. Yeah,
I think I think we're mostly in agreement to mean mostly Like, I don't
think it would be a good idea to get rid of it entirely. I
would be totally okay if his sexism is more subtle but also still changes pretty
fast, you know, early on. Yeah, if they would have treated
a little differently for live action, I think that's fine. But I think
completely writing it out would maybe be like, I don't know, it would
be better than writing out as humor. I'll I'll just say that, especially
because in some ways he is the character who has I think, as you
know, this is not In some ways this is fully true. He is
by far the character who gets the most romantic plot development we have, like
the Katana Aang thing, which a lot of people have strong feelings about myself
included, and that kind of wraps up very quickly at the very end,
but we have he has to pronounced romances, even to the point where the
end of one stops him from moving forward with the second until he's had time
to heal. In a way I think is really beautiful portrayed that's rough,
buddy. Yes, do you think do you think they meant that to be
Zuko is just really awkward at giving giving help to people and doesn't know what
to say, or do you think they meant that to be just like,
no, that's a that's a legit thing to say when your friend says something
horrible. I don't know. Yeah, but it works. Yeah, I
don't know about Zuko says this after literally Soaka has said yeah, my first
girlfriend got turned into the moon. And it has become a meme of like
the thoughts and prayers, the like what not to say to someone when they've
massively trauma dumped on you. See, yeah, but the delivery is so
perfect. Yeah. Here, I don't view it as like this like thoughts
and prayers. I view it as like, I don't know. A friend
of mine told me that, like his friend died in a car accident one
time, and I was just like that sucks, like and that's it,
you know, And he was like that actually felt like the perfect thing for
someone to say, because like people always like, oh, I'm sorry,
that's horrible, I'm so sorry for your loss, like the like there's just
nothing you can say sometimes Yeah, all you can do is just be like
that's rough, buddy, you know, like like what else do you have
to add? There's there's just yeah, that's it. You just acknowledge someone's
suffering what they went through. Yeah. But speaking to that moment, Matthew,
you you've asked a couple of times like what do we want in the
live action right version? I want a little bit more of this Zuko Sokka
interaction and their relationships with their fathers, because obviously, like we've talked about
Zuko and his father, Socca has an interesting relationship with his father that I
think characterizes him with some of the things we've talked about. Because when his
father and the other men, the warriors and the tribe go off to fight
the Fire Nation, they deliberately leave Socca behind because he's too young, but
they give him like this, He fathers like you have to stay behind and
like protect your sister, and grand like gives him this mission. But he
saw himself sees that as a moment where he was not ready yet, He
wasn't a warrior yet, and so like they both have these feelings of not
wanting to disappoint their fathers that I didn't really get enough of in the animated
version of them talking about that, so I'd like to see more of that.
I'm nervous about it, Like I do agree with that, but I
think one thing that really came through was I was rewatching the show and kind
of surprising, and the dog didn't bark way because it's a dog that shouldn't
bark all the time, but does bark all the time now on TV.
Socca's Dead is fundamentally a decent guy who made a hard decision at a hard
time, and I think that that is in the show. Like, yeah,
both Katara and Sokka have really mixed feelings about their father because of the
way he left, And I think you're right, we probably put too much
responsibility on Zuko on Socca, but the ways like we never learned that,
like he has a dark secret or that he left because like he had this
falling out with their mother. Like that's what I mean, the dog that
didn't bark. I kept waiting for the other shoe to drop, and it
never does. He's a good, loving father who had to be Like even
he never really apologizes to the kids for leaving them. He's like it really
sucks that I had to do this and I hate that, and I hate
that it was there for your mother. And because I do agree with you,
I think Sokka's feelings about his father and having to live up to this
and the damage it does to him are very, very real. But to
me, it's part of what makes a really counterpoint is that Zuko's dad is
a certifiably horrible person and horrible father. I don't feel that about Soccer's father.
I think Soccer's father made a really hard decision, a really hard situation
that did real harm to his kids, but probably did the best he could,
and I think that's a real important like. But but the fact that
Socca could still be suffering and having to live up this reputation of his father,
it's kind of what makes it so powerful. Yeah, I don't need
it to be like an in depth conversation between them, but when they go
on the adventure and like try to break Socca's father out of prison right the
two episode arc, I just felt like I could have used like one or
two more interactions where like Socca talks about his dad and like Zuko says something
or reacts in a way that makes it clear that he's thinking of his father
and like how how different Soccer's relationship is, and like maybe it's there,
but I guess I may I I didn't pick up on it or remember it
as memorable. So just like give me just a little bit more of that,
That's right, Yeah, I think I do with that. I just
want to make sure that the father stays a good dude, is all I'm
saying. Yeah, you know, you definitely don't need to like construct and
like add more elements of drama to the general narrative. Like it's a long
enough story. There's enough like side adventures like it. I'm not I'm not
saying like not to do what you're asking for, Riki. I mean,
like you don't have to like add some dark secret and this or that.
It's like, yeah, just kind of those two characters talking a little bit
more about you know, they're they're very different yet similar kind of relations with
with their dad. Like I could see that, you know, Katara certainly
has strong feelings about it, Like I think she like cries her eyes out
and at one point blames her father for their their mother being kidnapped, right
or killed? You you weren't there, I think is the narrative. Isn't
that right? Isn't that the Yeah? The scene when Ang disappears to go
off and like do his own spirit quest, she starts by v. She
goes to her father like very upset about AG and like, how could Ang
leave us? Yeah? And her father is perceptive enough to be like,
sweety, is that what you're really upset about? And she's without missing a
beat, goes, dad, how could you have left us? I don't
remember that they that her mom got killed after the dad and the other warriors
left. I thought they there was a raid, her mom died and then
whoever else went out after? But like left us alone? I think,
is that you know we had already lost mom and now you last? Yeah,
I think you're the thing. But she definitely has feelings about for him
leaving. Yes, so let's talk about Katar. Yeah, let's talk about
guitar and not to revisit a conversation that Rieky and I and Sarah Hayashi had
prolong time during a discussion about rebels. Is blood bending fundamentally a bad thing?
Obviously? It is? I mean I don't think so. I like
it's like is using the force to paralyze someone like who's about to kill someone?
Like, Okay, I'll just give you a hypothetical. There's two people
or there's one person sitting down in a chair and someone else is behind them
and they're about to smash them over the head or like lop their head off,
and you use blood bending to physically stop them. Please tell me what's
wrong with that if you don't have any other non blood bending way that you
can basically without fail stop this person from murdering this other person. Yeah,
even more so because like your other way of stopping might be the murder of
the killer, the potential killer. Like blood bending doesn't like harm someone the
way maybe hitting them what a fighter ball does. Like, I think my
only real complaint about the show is that I and this is kind of going
to get into a larger issue, but it's about guitarics, the guitar storyline.
It does sometimes feel like there's may have you back up on this.
I think one part of the show that I feel hasn't aged very well and
that I have a real kind of some of a complaint with at the time,
but much more so even now, is I feel like at the time
the show was made. We had this general cultural idea that there are acceptable
ways to fight evil and there are non acceptable ways to fight evil, and
that there are some methods of fighting that are just not okay, and that
both is a like the way you do combat, but also just the way
like who you attack, you know, And so we set up Jet and
his band as the like they are clearly going too far in a way that
like our heroes never would And I don't agree with Jet necessarily. I think
he is attacking innocent people. But I think there's been a larger cultural shift
in conversation that maybe we shouldn't be so quick to judge the actions of oppressed
people in fighting their oppressors, and that the kind of moral there's sort of
a problem or a hypocrisy of sitting on a moral high ground of not being
the oppressed person and judging like this is an okay way to fight, and
this is not okay way to fight. And I found myself watching the Jet
plot line and how judgmental everyone is of them very quickly, and feeling a
lot of sympathy towards them, you know, like I think that they're right,
but in a like they're the ones who are most feeling the boot on
their necks of what's happening to them. Why are we so quick to judge
them? And I kind of feel the same about Blood Bending and the character
who does BLOODBND Hannah, in that like, when people are doing horrible things
to you and your family, I'm not really concerned about the methods you use
to stop that happening. I think the story that plays out of because she's
willing to use these methods, she goes darker and darker and darker to the
point where now she just wants revenge. That's a story I'm with. I
guess I feel like there's an idea in the story of we can pass judgment
on the way other people who are in terrible situations and oppressed situations are fighting
back against that oppression that I was kind of uncomfortable with at the time,
and I'm very uncomfortable with this time. I watched it and for me that
kind of and Qatara is the main character at the heart of both of these
storylines, of the blood Bending and of the Jet and his fighters. I
mean, fundamentally, I understand the trolley problem that Paul brings up, but
from a I always return to the fact that this is fiction, right,
and there are certain conceits we have to have in fiction. We talked about
the I guess in last episode we talked about the fictionalized violence and how it's
very different from a more realistic of violence that's depicted in media, and moral
questions like this, I think in fiction are set up in a way that
certain characters or certain actions are deliberately portrayed to be evil to contrast with the
main characters, or to give a point of reference to why the main characters
are are quote unquote good. I mean they are good, but I mean
like better than other people, right, Like it's the whole Batman doesn't kill
thing like he has. Batman is such a dark character that there has to
be a distinction between him and his rogue's gallery and what he does, and
that's the line that he draws, and that's why we still hold him up
as as a hero in a sense. And so like here, I think
like it might be a little black and white and comical or I don't know
if that's the right word, but but the moralistic stands is that blood bending
is evil and because Katara chooses not to, even though she learns how to
do it, she chooses not to kill the fire Nation Raider, the Southern
Raider guy. In the follow up that that makes her a good character,
and that's that's just kind of like we have to accept that as a conceit
of the fiction. I think in this one, the thing that sticks out
to me is that, like the scenario that I concocted, what if instead
of okay, that exact scenario, say, there's some I don't know,
like a murderous fire lord who's trying to conquer the world and you want to
stop him but without killing him, and you're trying to figure out how you
could possibly do that, and like, I don't know, maybe if you
knew blood bending, you could just do that. And yes, like like
Katara literally actually had the answer to like Aang's own internal quandary. She had
her own intern I mean to me, like her not wanting to kill the
guy is very different from like not wanting to use blood bending. I mean,
I just I feel like it's it's a tool like any other tool,
and it's always like what are the consequences of this? You know what?
And these things where it's like, you know, people talk this is the
same discussion of mind control, right, except here it's not actually mind control,
it's just physical control. It's like, well, I guess the contact
when I said that Riekina had discussed this in terms of Star Wars Rebels.
It's specifically about Ezra using the Force to mind control the Imperial pilot of a
you know, attack walker, to cause the attack Walker to go off a
cliff. Yeah. And I was on my episode, by the way,
and it was it was it was fun, and I imagine I had the
same point point at the same time where it's you know, I mean that
that's murder. You know, it's what you know here we're talking about.
You know, it's like the Force if you could just be like, don't
kill that guy. Oh, I don't want to kill this guy. It's
like, right, but blood bending is even a step less than that,
where you're only controlling their physical body and like they could still have whatever thoughts
they want, you know, you're not like fundamentally changing the person. It's
like, what's the difference between blood bending someone into paralysis and like intercepting someone's
hand and putting them in a wrist locked where they can't physically cause harm.
At the moment, Like, well, but if two people are attacking you,
is blood bending one of them to fight the other? Maybe the larger
where it's not just about self defense, it's also having them. Yeah,
I mean, now we're getting into a more But so that's not a question
of whether or not blood bending's okay. That's a question of whether or not
that is an okay application of blood bending. Right. Of course, there's
horrible applications of it. I mean it's like airbending, like aang is this
like very non violent fighter, right, non lethal fighter. He's with the
exception of tanks falling off of cliffs and whatever, like, he's basically trying
to separate himself from an opponent, separate an opponent from someone they're attacking,
extinguish fires, whatever it is, you know, using airbending in order to
do non lethal means of self defense or defending others, right, using you
know, but you can use the same power to just and before this happened
in a later series, I thought this myself. I was like, wait,
you could just use airbending to just like suffocate people, you know,
just like like that, and like you know, you can argue, like
is that a good or bad use of it, Well, it's certainly a
violent, murderous use of it, you know. And I mean to me,
if nothing else, if you shoot a laser bolt at me and I
use a lightsaber to reflect it back at one of your friends, versus if
you're pointing a laser gun at me and I use you know, blood bending
to shift your arms so it hit someone else, right, And I get
going back to kind of where I was going, which I guess it's more
about the jet plot line than the blood bending, but to me, they
feel very similar. I hear what you're saying, Riki about the fictional world,
I guess to me, and just to be explicit, like I'm talking,
I think this is a general thing, to be sure, but I'm
talking in this moment specifically about like Hamas and Gaza in Israel and all that.
I think, at least for myself growing up seeing these stories where there
were clear lines of is acceptable to fight evil in these ways, but if
you cross this line, then now you're actually becoming as bad as the thing
you're fighting. Put me in a position where I would often be able to
cast moral judgment on you know, other freedom groups or pressure groups that were
dealing with the press, and I was dealing with that we're fighting in ways
that maybe I felt uncomfortable with. And then again, this is not meant
to be, therefore, a blanket endorsement of Jet or a blankt endorsement of
groups like that in our own world. I guess I've got to a point
where I feel like I'm uncomfortable with shows that are saying there's a clear black
and white line, because I think it teaches us that we can we can
see the actions of others in our own world today in the clear black and
white line, which is something I'm very uncomfortable with, and that I feel
like the way that the situation Gaza is being talked about is a good example
of I feel like the Last Airbender show. Actually, I mean, Jet
is a sympathetic character, right Hannah, I think right is a Hannah he
has a bad better is a sympathetic character like that. Sure, there's an
element to which you know, this show is kind of saying like, these
aren't things you should do, or maybe not as an extent to which but
it's kind of clearly saying you know, this isn't the way. But like
I do think it does well to like show that struggle of like you know,
when facing oppression or confronted with some other negative force, Like, you
know, there are different ways to go about how you engage with that,
and you know it's worth at least thinking about, like whatever you have to
say about what any group or individual does in order to fight against opposite oppression
or or whatever else. I think it's at least worth suggesting that. Like
it's when you go about doing something like that, you know, give some
thought to the full consequences of your action, like I think, you know,
and come to your own conclusions, you know, like like Zook does.
But like ultimately, like, yeah, I think if you don't give
any thought to that, then you're not giving any thought to like what the
world is going to be like after you do whatever you do. You know,
I don't know, but I hear you. Yeah, I guess,
I very much hear that. I guess It's just the like what I really
am getting stuck on a lot these days is I have a lot more room
to think about those consequences when it's not the boot on my neck, And
then I'm just cautious about therefore making the judgment about someone who is in that
situation, you know, And I think that's where I think, to me,
I think Jet is portrayed as a cautionary tale and that we're like sympathetic,
but it's perceived it is kind of like, because of the terrible things
he's gone through, he has made a mistake. He's gone wrong in a
way that I am it was hard, Yeah, I hear you. I
mean I think he has though, like he tries to kill an entire village
of people and like, yeah, I don't know, I just think that's
bad. I'm always gonna think that's bad. I agree. Yeah, yeah,
I think blood bending is fine, but maybe not like blood bending a
bunch of people to go be frozen in a cave who aren't all just like
a bunch of the soldiers who are a president like that. Specifically, what
she did seemed bad, but you know, I don't know. Yeah.
So my my thought on this is that again, like I'm approaching this as
a as a work of fiction and how the writers are presenting something to us.
Because while I agree with a lot of your thoughts, Matthew, I
think it's important to not draw too many lines between fiction and reality, just
just in a general standpoint, because if we do that, then if we
make fiction too real, I think it loses something. It loses some power
of storytelling because real life is messy, Real life is not black and white,
and like you could make the argument that every every war is evil.
I mean that's not that's how I believe that. But you lose the ability
for characters in fiction to enact violence or do things that you know we have
to accept as part of this story. But on the blood bending, I
think there is like this line that the storytellers are drawing. And what I
find important is that in the fictional world, the characters are also drawing that
line. Katara is choosing not to blood bend, right, She's choosing not
to use this power because she, in her own heart is drawing this line
a moral line of this is evil. I won't cross this line. And
I find the agents of her choice to be important part of her character compared
to other works of fiction where evil powers like this literally like through magic,
corrupt their soul and like you literally see like the black in their in their
veins and stuff as they use that power. Right, Like that that is
like a storytelling method, but I find it's so much more powerful that she
makes these choices rather than like the choice being forced upon her, because it's
literally like sucking her soul out, Like that's that's what I like about it.
I think, I think that's very fair, and I do agree,
like I love something like probably my favorite ship of in her movie of all
time to this day is still Logan, in part because the violence is so
uncomfortably awful to watch, even when it is for the most righteous purposes.
And I feel like the world needs that, because I think if people watch
movies and think violence in a good cause is awesome, that's a bad thing.
But I also think if every movie was like that, it'll be horrible.
And I guess at this moment in time, with what's happening in the
world on today, February thirteenth, I am feeling particularly aware of the problems
of people feeling like we can draw easy moral lines of how people should act
in situations that we're not in, and so I'm probably I'm at a time
where I'm like, I really I wish there was more fiction that didn't do
that, but you're right, there is fiction that didn't do that, and
not all fiction should do that, and so Yeah, I think it'd make
a very good point. I guess I'm just saying for me right now,
at least in this historical moment, that's a storyline that I'm really wrestling with.
You know, I think there's a need for both. There's so much
more we can say about this, but we haven't actually talked about Kaitara at
all, So Paul take us away. Yeah. So, I mean I
really like what you said, Riki about While I disagree with Katara and the
characters' stances that like blood bending is necessarily fundamentally evil or something one shouldn't do,
I very much appreciate that she has come to this conclusion. She's come
to a conclusion, decided to take a stance on it and say I'm not
going to do that. That's not how I want to fight this war basically,
And I think, you know, in the story, I mean,
she's kind of she's like she's the narrator right in the intro, Like,
yeah, she's the one who's like, oh, this is the Avatar.
We have to help the avatar become the Avatar so we can stop this war.
Like, you know, she's really the character who kind of gets things
to move the way they need to move, and you know, she does
go to the Northern Water tribe to learn how to water bend, and she
gradually over the course of the series becomes a water bending master. And I
think that that journey of training while also trying to be a teacher, you
know, and having having you know, grown up I guess as a young
adult in like martial arts culture, having been pressed into you know, service
as a teacher basically as a red belt teaching like junior black belts, which
was weird, but like teaching things that I was still learning. Like,
I relate to her a lot in that way of like this, Okay,
I'm learning something still, and I'm trying to teach it to someone who doesn't
know it yet, while also trying to learn myself to do it better partially
so I can then teach them what's next. You know, It's like as
a teacher, like learning more actually can help you become a better teacher,
and teaching someone who is, for mystical reasons, far better at learning the
stuff than you are in ways that I think legitimately frustrating at times. Sure,
yeah, for sure, yeah, yeah, And yeah, having like
a very talented student who just like it's like, oh, it took me
a little longer to learn that one. You know, that can be a
you know, a bit of an ego check, right, But as a
teacher it's important to be able to overcome that and to celebrate, you know,
your student successes and then to know when it's like time for them to
either move on to another teacher or just kind of do their own thing because
you know, you've taught them what you have to learn. So Katara being
this this teacher and also being a student and learning throughout the series, you
know, she sets things into motion really, but also doesn't have a lot
of times to kind of just like do her thing, you know. And
there's a few like the I think the Painted Lady I think is that what
it's called, or the Lady in the Lake whatever, whatever, you know,
where there's this polluted lake and there's this lake town, and there's this
factory, and then you know she does stuff, and you know, she
she really doesn't have a lot of spots where she her agency is to like
kind of do what she wants to do. You know, She's like,
I feel like a lot of the times she's kind of trying to keep them
on task and on course and everything, and so it's it's nice when maybe
like one time a season or so, you know, she really gets an
episode where she gets to be the driving force of that episode and you know,
kind of make her decisions for like what's going to happen, what she's
going to do there, and so so I appreciate her choice with regard to
choosing not to blood bend, even if I don't see it as just some
innately evil objectively, oh, you definitely shouldn't do that kind of thing.
Like the fact that she sees it that way and then decides to not use
this very powerful weapon essentially, I think is still a powerful message even if
I'm like, well, I don't think that weapons so bad. It's like
no, but she does, and she chooses not to use it for that
reason, and I respect that. Like her journey to becoming a water vating
master is pretty underrated, I think in light of all of the other characters
in their power levels, because at the end of this show, she's the
one who defeats a Zula in one on one combat. Like Zuko challenges Azula
to the Agnekai, but he has to make the selfless sacrifice play when Azula
turns her lightning to Katara and he's Zuko's taken out of it, and then
she has to face Azula one on one and defeats her. And I think
that's that's a really interesting moment to me, that whole fight and how that
plays out, and maybe like an expectation subversion or at least I wasn't expecting
it to play out that way, but I really like it for both of
their characters. Yeah, I think it is really well done, especially because
this is changing now, but at the time that the show was originally made,
there was often a sense of like, your female protagonist has to fight
your female antagonist, and it didn't feel like that was set up here,
you know, in terms of like the fight between Azula, it winds up
being the fight between the Zula and Tara. The other thing I would just
say about Guitars character that I want to say, and I think I have
to move on because there's a lot more to talk about. I love that
she is the last one to really come around on Soakka's humor because and again
I found it very relatable in a way because what I see in the situation
is that his humor, Like, the two of them are kind of the
people who really helping to hold the water drive together. In a lot of
ways, they're the kind of the oldest of the younger generation that's still left
behind. He deals with all my humor, and other people may appreciate that,
but to her, she feels like he's being humorous because she has to
be the one to take to take everything seriously and to take care of everything,
and so she sees his humor as him kind of shirking responsibilities. And
so when they rejoin everyone else who doesn't have that backstory, all they see
is Socca's humor, which they love and sometimes loved role that I to,
I roll at something I can very much relate to as the very proud king
of bad puns. And so the idea that like the rest of them are
like, oh, yeah, we love Socca is bad jokes, and Guitara
is like she sees the bad jokes that they were mind of all the things
that he didn't do for the tribe that she had to do. I just
really love that, and it's one more part of her growth and I think
is essential. Let's turn to the last memory of the gang. We haven't
really talked about Tough, and I will just start by saying, Tough to
me is not only a great character, but an incredibly important character because she
is in a very small group that's being added to and I think Echo in
the MCU is now very much also part of the group of good representation of
disability in science fiction fantasy because and it's not our entire character. That's a
very important thing as well, but so much I've often talked about this that
so often you have a disabled character who is then given through science fiction or
magic basically the ability to erase their disability in a way that no longer becomes
relatable. And the fact that she and granted I'm not blind, so I
can't speak to that particular experience, but the way that she has, you
know, through her ability through bending to sort of better you know, have
senses that are better than everyone else's, and it still functioned very much in
the world, but it never takes away her blindness. And again what I
think is so relatable. I mean, if you've been around me for at
any period of time, you've probably heard me make a bad joke about my
amputation. You know, I'm going to jump to my foot, you know,
something like that. And she makes bad jokes about her lack of vision
all the time, as well as jokes with others, like when they're like,
oh my gosh, Toff, you have to see this poster and she's
like, do I do? I have to see the poster. I find
her character one of the most as a disabled person, one of the ones
I can most relate to. And I just absolutely love her, and I
love that she exists, and I love that they understood that issue enough to
write her that way. Yeah. I mean I agree with all of that.
Obviously, I don't know from personal experience, but it felt like a
satisfying representation to me, and I hope it was to blind audience members who
have experienced this show. So yeah, Like everything you said about the humor,
I think her humor is just spot on. And her addition in season
two really like took the show into the stratosphere for me, Like it was
already a good show in season one, but adding her to the group,
like and the dynamic of it, and her like her power again, Like
her power level from the start was off the charts, and then she learns
how to metal bed, It's like oh my gosh, what is going on
here? She's just a great character all around. I love the voice acting.
It just a perfect character. I mean, not my favorite, but
I think there's like no notes, right, Like I can't think of a
way to make her better. Yeah, yeah, I agree with all of
that. I think like some some high notes for me are I mean,
obviously, when when she actually figures out metal bending, it's like wait what
Yeah? And then you know when she has tea with Iro, you know,
when when Zuko burns her feet, and like the way she reacts to
that, I think, you know, afterwards, the way she kind of
is like, well, you know, I'm the one who's Feedie burned,
and I'm like, okay, let's give him a chance. And then when
she's outside the library and the library sinking into the desert, into the sand,
and APA's being abducted, and she like wants to help Apa, but
she also doesn't want all of her other friends to be lost underground. Is
it's such a it's such a hard moment, you know, for her,
and you know, you can you can tell how much she cares about all
of them, and you know, including Apa, and and you know that's
like one of the few times like her power isn't quite enough, like because
she has she really does have. She's the character who enters I think with
the highest like obvious power level. You know. Yeah, he just like
steps on screen. You're like, oh, she can do that, you
know, And and she does, you know, like you're saying about characters
in fiction. You know, she does have a power that lets her sort
of circumvent her disability to an extent in certain ways at times, you know,
but then at other times it doesn't, and in other ways it doesn't.
You know. It's not like it's not quite like Daredevil, right,
Yeah, And the desert scene you're talking about is a good sign where it's
the power is it infallible? Because right for her standing on sand, she
says, if I feel like my vision is a crowbly blurry exactly her,
it doesn't always work, yeah, Or like if she's flying on APA,
it's like she can't perceive the other people around her the way she could if
they were standing on solid ground. And I do, but they do a
good job in moments like when she first joins the group and asks for her
championship belt back and Sokka just drops it. To her from from Opa and
it hits her on the head because she you know, can't see it using
her earth spending powers. Like that's that's a fun moment and it's believable.
But I do think like a lot of the combat it's very inconsistent about like
what she can I'm gonna keep using see you know what she can see what
she can't that's flying through the air at her. So it's it's hard.
I think it's very hard to write that character correctly, like in moments like
that. So I don't know, I think we can be critical of it
and say like it's inconsistent, but still overall, so I guess I do
have a note, but overall like it given given where representation on this has
been in the past, I think it's just a monumental leap forward. Yeah,
I mean this is also a show I started twenty years ago, right,
so where representation was at that point in time. And also like would
it be a better show if they were perfectly consistent about all of her combat
abilities, like she probably would be less powerful if they really try to you
know yep. But now, like talking about the live action show, maybe
that that that is something that can think about and address more, try to
address it more realistically, Like, I don't think it can be completely realistic,
like as none of these martial arts will probably be like there will be
certainly a lot of wires involved in making people fly around, right, So
I'm not expecting it to be like completely realistic. But let's try to continue
to move the conversation on. Yeah, I think definitely, and give us
some continuity hopefully right throughout the series, right for sure. And I'll say
to listeners for anybody who is part of the blind community or you know,
has anything related to that, would love to hear from you as well.
Yeah, because it's we're talking about a television show and it's a fundamentally a
visual entertainment medium. But like I don't want to take anything away from blind
audience members, right, like the want to enjoy it and to please let
us know if you have a different experience or a different understanding of this character
than us, because like none of us can speak to this very much,
so we don't have too much more time, so I do want to kind
of starting to wrap up. There's one particular plot line though, that for
me is I think honestly my favorite plot line in the show, and that
I did not realize how prescient it was until the last few years. And
that's Bossings say. And for those who don't remember or don't know, as
we actually done a terrible job of summarizing the stuff for people who haven't seen
the show because we're jumping into it. But in the one of the conceits
that we said is that there's been one hundred years of war and that most
of that war is happening right now within the Earth Kingdom with the Fire Nation
invading but having not quite conquered it yet. But the capital city of the
Earth Kingdom, Bossing say, where the Earth King lives, there is no
war in Bossing say, like they have done so much to eradicate this idea
and really propaganda is so that the people in the city can live this happy,
sort of joyous life of you know, not knowing about the problems outside
literally their city walls and just being oppressed by their own Earth King and their
own ridiculous government instead of everything and very much like I just did an episode
on my other podcast about Attack of the Clones where I say that one of
the things that I hate about that is when we reveal that Duku isn't just
doing this all of its own in a way that is perfect for Palpatine's plans,
but is actually an agent of Darth Citius. There is never a moment
where it is said that the long thing person who's running all this is in
some way working for the fire Nation. He does later when he's caught out
and is exposed, but in the moment, it's just like, no,
this is what people do sometimes in times of war. And you know,
probably when I watched it, I thought that's a little over the top,
that's not really believable. Having now lived through there is no COVID in USA,
and then many other times where I think this has become very applicable,
Like that's I think the most direct one. But I also think just the
idea of that people who live in comfortable situations can very comfortably ignore the fact
that these horrible things are happening to people maybe down the street or maybe across
the world from them, is actually really, really and then our media does
an awful lot to help sustain that is really very impressient, And so to
me it is the it's probably the storyline that I'm most investing in them doing
right and them really kind of keeping the same, Like the metaphor of it
doesn't have to be over the top, but has to be there. Of
you know, this is this is a very real thing. It is not
a fantasy. Oh my gosh, how could they do this in a fantasy
world? You know, the level of brainwashing involved is probably a little bit
fantastical, but you know, it's one of the storylines that has proven so
true over the years since it was made that I'm really looking forward to.
I'm both trepadacious but also looking forward to seeing how they do it on screen.
Yeah. I think we did an episode of this very podcast titled there
Is No Racism in Possing Say that was kind of about, you know,
people who don't know that racism is like going on, don't know that,
you know, like that there's anyway we don't have to you could go listen
to it episode ninety four, but like the point being that there's like,
yeah, I agree, sorry, that's glad to say. Like there's a
lot of things that like if you don't know about it, you don't know
about it, and it's easy to form opinions that are very strong, but
like completely uninformed and like make no sense because it's like, yeah, you
need to know something to really have an opinion on it. That I mean,
you need to know something, right Like yeah, so yeah, well
you open the can. So okay, let me talk about race in the
show, right, Like we talked about representation of disability, Paul, you
mentioned Ang's vegetarianism, and obviously, like I'm Japanese and this is a highly
Asian inspired show, like the Fantasy World feels like all Asian right outside of
the Yeah, the tribes are our native North American inspired, I guess,
and I think actually they are more inspired by Russian and Asian or Arctic,
although those people like Asian Arctic and North American Arctic have quite a lot in
common. But but yeah, but for me, like talking about like what's
what we're going to see in the live action, like that is what I'm
most curious about and excited for in a lot of ways because being an animated
show, a lot of the voice actors. I love him to death,
you know, like Mark Hamill as OZI obviously like a top tier you know,
we know him as the Joker in Batman, just the top tier villain
whenever he shows up. He's fantastic. Same thing with Clancy Brown. You
just mentioned the Leader of the Day Fong. Clancy Brown is another like great
voice actor and villain. But these are like white guys. Yeah, So
I'm I'm very excited for the live action because they are casting people who you
know, are Asian of Asian ancestry. I'm not going to spoil any of
the names, but like some of them are very notable actors, and the
young the Aang, the Avatar gang is like young people, so like mostly
unknown I think, but still like honoring the traditions that have been set up
in this fictionalized universe, like the parallels to the real world. So I
just I'm really excited about that, and I'm a little worried. And let
me tell you why I'm worried, because this the fire nation in the fictionalized
world is most people believe it to be inspired by Imperial Japan, right,
I think that's that's and then there's a there's a lot of debate and discussion.
We could have a whole nother episode. I'm sure we could have about
that, and we may have when we discussed the live action show, but
that's as part of my own heritage, Like that's a very disappointing and terrible
history that we have of of colonizing other Asian countries. And so it's it's
going to be very interesting for me to see how they represent this fictionalized world
because it's even though it's fiction, you're you're going to draw parallels. You're
going to draw visual parallels like the there's an episode where Aang goes to school
and the Fire Nation and learns about their propaganda, and that's like just straight
out of how you know, stuff like that happened. And so I really
hope it's done well. And I think the way that they the casting choices
they have made shows to a care that they have and any like the original
creators, like the cultural consultants that they had on hand to make the animated
show. I think it shows a lot of care from the very beginning in
wanting to make it, you know, not accurate because it's again it's fiction,
but make it true to a lot of the things that they're drawing inspiration
from. Yeah, I think it's I think it's very important that it's a
fantasy series, right, It's a fantasy setting, like the Fire Nation is
not Imperial Japan. It certainly the first time I saw it, I thought
that was the main inspiration. Apparently it's actually supposedly mostly inspired by the Chin
Dynasty, the first Chinese dynasty that kind of set up the Chinese Empire.
I think, like their actual helmet design and stuff like that is looks like
that. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't also have inspiration drawn from Imperial
Japan. And I mean, you know, with Maco voicing Uncle Iro as
one of the few characters that actually has a like accent of like English,
not as a first language, right, like he speaks with George t.
K plays like a prison warden. Yeah, in one of the episodes.
Yeah, But like as far as like in the main cast, you know,
it's and I think there's this idea that kind of like the older generation
is supposed to speak a little differently than the younger generation and whatever. But
like, I definitely am happy that they're hiring actors of Asian descent to play
most of the characters, because that's just and that was one of the complaints
about the first movie, you know that it was like they just mostly hired
white actors and then they made you know, the fire Nation I think was
like Indian, like Asian Indian, and it just it was it was a
choice, you know, it didn't seem like a good one, and so
I do I do think it's like a very difficult line, right to try
and straddle the this is not a direct representation of any given culture, but
it is clearly inspired by a number of cultures or a set of cultures or
you know, And so how do you like pay homage to that and like
actually be accurate to an extent with while making it clear that it's not actually
a direct representation like of a specific culture. And I think that's just hard.
And the first series I think did, the animated series, I think
did a great job of that for the time it was made. I would
hope that a series made like that now did a better job of that.
And so I hope that the live action series kind of continues to improve in
that direction. Yeah, And it's interesting because a lot of it, I
think also come down to what are the things that you're looking at that are
informing you? Because I'll be honest, for me, I'm not very much
a visual person, and I don't I know more now than I did want
to watch the show in part because discussions with the two of you and many
others, I didn't know enough to know like, oh, these things are
they look like aspects of imperial Japan versus Imperial China versus you know, Tibet
or other things like that. But I do know the history of Imperial Japan
quite well, and I think in many ways it's that the Fire Nation is
portrayed, is kind of portrayed as like the first one to become more industrial
than a lot of the others, and then to use that industrial might in
a way to conquer. And then also that it gets like kind of trapped
in this unending war in the Earth Kingdom, which is very reminiscent of the
Imperial pan in China, down to even it's an island nation too, you
know, yeah, yeah, and down to even the like by the time
of the Legend of Kora, there's all this like chaos of who is going
to rule the you know, who is going to rule the Earth Kingdom?
Very much in that, like you know, the Chinese Civil War that eventually
leads to now and all that is very much a response of the chaos of
of I mean, massively splinting history in a couple of things. But yeah,
but I think and it's an interesting lesson I think of like what is
it you're paying attention to. Is you're paying attention to the historical details,
You're paying attention to the accents of the actors, You're paying attention to the
martial art. Like I I do not have any understanding until I think,
Paul, you really helped me see that, like the that there are different
martial arts used by and if I remember Jacob maybe yeah, I think so
tell me if I'm wrong here, But my memory is that the Fire Kingdom
style is more closely associated to karate, to karate which is more Japanese influenced
than that the Earth Kingdom is more kung fu, which is more Chinians influenced
them. So I feel so many different axes on which this representation is shown.
And so yeah, I think it's also a reminder of all of us
of like, yeah, grabbing one thing and saying therefore this is that is
something to be careful of. Yeah, And I think that was my first
interpretation, but I think it was actually based more on like northern styles of
which then were, which is what like shotokan karate is like more inspired you
know, based on which is my main like what I've seen. Like we'd
have people come to the dojeng who like did shotcan before, and I'd be
like, ah, that that guy did Shotokan, like just by the way
they move, you know, whereas like if someone did like gochuu, like
they just move a different way, and that's like more like the Southern styles,
and and so again it's a thing where to me, like in my
view, I definitely thought the Fire Nation was inspired by Imperial Japan, you
know, and that was just you know a combination of my lack of understanding
and knowledge of like a larger sense of Asian history and culture and everything.
But also like there are elements like the industrialization that you know, and the
it being this this island nation that like you know, So again it's a
fantasy setting that draws aspects like the martial arts are more specifically like the water
bending is just like straight up tai chi, you know. And and but
so yeah, there's there's you know, and I mean they use characters right
that are You're like, oh, yeah, that's that's the word for this.
That's the word for that. Like although I think in the live adction
adaptation. They just replaced them with like some made up symbols or something I
don't know, which seems like really weird, but like they had an advisor
specifically for the calligraphy, you know, they had an advisor specifically for you
know, the martial arts, and and that's the type of thing that I
think you need to do if you want to borrow aspects from real world cultures
and integrate them into fantasy cultures. I think you need to know enough about
those cultures to know like, are you are you gonna make something feel like
something really uncomfortable? Like do you do you know the history enough to know
where you're kind of pressing And if you just change one thing, is that
going to be like oh, oh no, you didn't like, you know,
like where it feels like you're saying something that wasn't necessarily something you meant
to say at all, but like just through ignorance, like you end up
kind of making some political statement that's like, oh, that's not that's not
a good statement to make, right. There are so many situations of you
know, what we would call bad representation where you're just like, you know
that something depicting you know, like an Asian culture was written by a room
full of white people and it just like comes off like so hammy and and
poorly written. And this this just never felt like that because like I don't
know the racial makeup of the Writer's Room, but as Paul said, like
they have at least done their due diligence and research and had consultants on hand,
and they talk to people, and that's that's what I want, Like
obviously, like every moment where you can get more representation anywhere, whether it's
on screen voice acting, like Writer's Room, Like I love that, but
at the very least, you know, like, don't don't make like basically
like cultural appropriation the TV show. And I don't believe that that's what this
is at all. And I think that's so true. And I'll say,
even for me, I remember when I first started watching it, and you
know, like Riki, I'm very glad you brought up that topic. It's
one that I wanted that I wanted to be able to ask you about,
but also want to be cautious about because I never want to do the token
I of like, oh hey, the Asian person says that it's okay,
So it's okay because I think or the even asking you to be the definitive
voice of any of these things. So I think these conversations will have to
be handled carefully. And in that similar vein, I did have some concern
going into the show of like, oh, it all feels very Asian and
it's written by white people. And one of the things that made me more
comfortable about it was someone telling me that George de Kay was a voice actor
in it, because he is someone who's been very upfront all along in his
career that you know, he regretted a lot of the things about Star Trek
that felt very kind of tokenizing towards his character, and that he once he
sort of felt like he could start picking and choosing his roles, that he
was going to be very careful never to sort of play into a white written
Asian stereotype. And so the fact that he had chosen to be involved with
us was like, Okay, that tells me a lot about like what this
kind of a show is. And obviously those in season one and things could
have gone wrong, and so yeah, so and I do know, I
mean, I know there are some folks who do object to the live act
to the animated show because it's white people writing about it, you know,
and they have so I'm not to say that it's universal acclaimed for it,
but yeah, I think it's gonna be a very important topic to keep an
eye on in the live action, and that will all kind of I'm curious
to hear both your thoughts on and the thoughts of many others. Yeah,
I mean like I will most certainly have thoughts and feelings about it, and
like I'm just one person, and most notably like my background is that I
am culturally like I am very American, like I grew up here ninety percent
of my life, and I don't I lack a lot of connection to more
traditional Japanese culture and opinions about media. So by all means like I am
not the sole representative of a voice. I'm just my own voice, and
I will always try to be true to that, but leave the door open
to other people to say, hey, like I feel a little bit differently
about this, And then I think that's what makes fandom great is having discussion
in a way that we can all express our opinions but not attack each other.
Right like if other people like if Asian fans of Avatar come and say
no, like, we see this very differently, Like I would love to
hear that and learn about their opinions and their point of view. Yeah,
and I'll also say, like, I didn't even thought of this until this
discussion, but Paul, you brought up the episodes where And goes to a
Fire Nation school, and it really helps us as the viewers to humanize those
character, to humanize the people from the Fire Nation, And I'm realizing I
think that's also going to be a very essential part of the show to me.
And granted that's until season three, you know, in part because I
do want to see hot men, hotman, hot meant, which I think
is just a great scene and the power of dance, but also because it
taken this metaphor further, you know, with Offenheimer, a movie that was
in public discussion this year, I think there's been a lot of attention drawn
to one of the horrible things that happened as the end of Imperial Japan was
the drop being the nuclear bomb and all that. But but what made that
possible, in part was the massive dehumanization of Japanese people that happened within American
media and Western media and all of that, and I feel like, again
not taking the metaphor too far, but the very intentional humanization of the people
of the Fire Nation and the discussion of you know, you know, we
have to win the war all costs, so we have to do this ultimate
thing of killing OZI. No, I don't want to do that. It's
hard for me in this day and age. Are they not to see that,
you know a little like I don't think that was intended as a like
nuclear bomb discussion, but it's part of a similar conversation of how much we
dehumanize people in war and how much that allows us to feel like we can
go to any extent in order to win the war. Yeah, and not
just the humanization of the Fire Nation, mostly children, but showing the propaganda
of how they are dehumanizing the Earth Kingdom, right, yeah, or infantilizing
like. One of the reasons that I, for me personally, I draw
the parallel to Imperial Japan is that one of the characters, either like Susan
or Azalon, like one of the fire Lords, when they're talking about the
war specifically uses the word prosperity, like we have to bring our prosperity to
the other nations, and that is the greater Asian co prosperity. Prosperity is
a translation that's words specifically of how Japan viewed what they were doing in Asia.
So like when they use that word prosperity, that was like a big
like light bulb for me, Like, ah, here we go. Yeah,
that makes sense. We're out of the time limit, and I have
some bonus content that'll do with one of you at least to stick around if
you but if you both have to go, that's mine. If one of
you have to go, it's mine. But let me just say any last
thoughts you want to say, Paul, let me start with you both and
a last thoughts, and also any plugs you want to give for the media
you're creating. Yeah, I'll have some media coming soon. You can follow
me zen Madman on Twitter or whatever if you want. I'll have zenmadman dot
com up again. At some point, we didn't talk that much about opera,
but that's fine. Character can talk about Apa more later. De Bradley
Baker, the voice of Clon, is also the voice of Opa and Momo,
getting in the habit of talking to himself all the time. But yeah,
no, I don't have that much more to say, just like,
I love the show. It's one of my three favorite series of all time,
and yeah, or I don't know, it doesn't matter how many,
but like, it's one of my favorite series of all time. It has
many of my favorite characters of all time. If you haven't watched it,
just go watch it. I don't know, although I'm like, I'm actually
getting my mom to watch the new series without having watched the animated because I
kind of want to be able to see how someone reacts to that without the
previous thing. I want to try and take the new series on as its
own, as its own thing. It doesn't have to live up to the
original. It doesn't have to be the original. I hope it has many
of the things I loved about the original. But the original survived one bad
live action version. It can survive another. If this one doesn't work out,
well, hopefully it doesn't have to. Hopefully this is great. And
I will say that when I watched the Cowboy Bebop live action, I enjoyed
it a lot, and then I went back and watched the animated series,
and I was like, Oh, if I had just watched this and then
watched the adaptation. I might not have liked the adaptation as much because I
really saw what the people who are complaining about it didn't like, Like there's
certain characters that are like, oh, that character does not feel right.
But the live action version was good, but it was like I took it
as separate thing and enjoyed it, and then I went and was like,
oh, the original series was brilliant too, but it was just it was
different, you know. So I hope people can kind of just take it
as it is. It's what it is. Hopefully it's good and the original
is great, so you know, at least we have Paris. I don't
know, well, my ranking of this show is that, like a week
ago, after we agreed that we were going to do this episode, my
wife Sarah just put on the first episode and then we didn't stop watching for
like a week and a half. We binged it like several episodes every night
and that like that. It's just that good where you start and you can't
stop. And I think that we said earlier or like last episode, it's
only three seasons. Yeah, they just they do such a good job of
telling the story. They wanted to tell and then saying we're done, We're
good, and that that's really one of the things I love about it.
My partner and I spent a lot of last year door dashing far more than
we meant to. We've had a lot of New Year's resolutions about we're going
to cook far more, and we are for the most part, but in
a similar vein there were two different evenings where we were like, so I
can get up and we pause the show for thirty minutes while I cook dinner,
or I can door dash and we keep watching. And Mary immediately was
like, keep watching. Yeah, I'm excited. I'll actually say. Paulsenually
pointed out that we hadn't talked about APPA. I'm really nervous about APPA live
action, like it's gonna be all cgied, and so he is a fundamental
character, and I think he was barely in the first adaptation, in part
probably because even twenty years ago, live action APPA would have been a disaster.
Yeah quarantine, I think. But yeah, so we'll see. So
we'll see well and stick around. We are going to have coverage of it
right here on this podcast, and please stick around. So thank you all
so much. For listening. We'd love to hear thoughts from you. Keep
watching these episodes. Our coverage of the live action is gonna be right here
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for listening. We have spoken. Haartman, Hotman. That's rough, buddy.
There we go, There we go. What are here,