1 00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:09,599 Understand the thinking atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol, an 2 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:14,720 idea. The population of atheists this country is going through the rule, rejecting 3 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:19,879 faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If I tell the truth, 4 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,960 it's because I tell the truth, not because I put my hand on a 5 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:29,320 book and made a wish and working together for a more rational world. Take 6 00:00:29,399 --> 00:00:33,640 the risk of thinking feels so much more happiness. Truth, Usian wisdom will 7 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:41,320 come to you that way. Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. 8 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:57,399 This is the Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews. Adam L. 9 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:02,920 Massri is a YouTube post He's got two channels, one in Arabic and one 10 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:08,799 in English. His website describes him as an Australian Egyptian freethinker, speaker, 11 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:15,680 human rights activist, author and content creator. He has been on the debate 12 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:22,640 scene. He founded Faith Crisis Australia and this is an organization to help ex 13 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:27,359 Christians as they navigate their post to religious life. His most recent book is 14 00:01:27,439 --> 00:01:34,920 titled How Did Christianity Begin Really? Published in Arabic. He is a registered 15 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:42,319 therapist with the Secular Therapy Project and he also serves recovering from Religion dot Org. 16 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:47,079 Adam, I guess we don't have time to talk now that I've given 17 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:51,799 your resume for about forty five minutes at the beginning of the conversation, Adam, 18 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:53,319 it's great to talk to you. Thanks for coming. Thank you so 19 00:01:53,439 --> 00:01:57,519 much for the wonderful introduction. How do I greet you? If we were 20 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:02,359 Muslims? Is it a SALAMU? All like them? Absolutely? ISLAMI like 21 00:02:02,439 --> 00:02:07,319 them, Yeah, And then you would respond to what's the reply? Well, 22 00:02:07,359 --> 00:02:10,439 it depends because I'm not fanatic enough. I would say we like them 23 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:15,960 Salem. But if you're talking to a specific sixt in Islam, they would 24 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:20,280 just say we like them without repeating Salam. Okay, I'll work on it, 25 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:22,759 you know, because I want to be able to do it properly. 26 00:02:23,319 --> 00:02:25,680 I guess, uh, you're all over the place, and I mean this 27 00:02:25,759 --> 00:02:30,039 in a good way. On your resume. I'm seeing all right, I 28 00:02:30,039 --> 00:02:34,520 got Australian, I got Egyptian, I got Islam. Can we start with 29 00:02:34,719 --> 00:02:37,919 Islam? With that being all right with you? Adam, Absolutely, let's 30 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:42,840 start with terms. I hear Muslims, I see Muslims online. They quote 31 00:02:42,879 --> 00:02:47,520 from the Qoran and the Hadith. What's the difference. Does Islam have like 32 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:53,879 two Bibles. The Quran is the holy book. Think about it as you 33 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:58,960 think of the Bible. It is the official holy book that was apparently revealed 34 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:04,639 from God. The hadith is the sayings that are attributed to the prophets. 35 00:03:05,039 --> 00:03:08,759 So most of d hadith come through a chain of narratives. Think of the 36 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:14,400 Disciples of Christ. It's in the same sense that anything the disciples of Christ 37 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:19,479 said about Christ that would be the hadith. Is it to be understood or 38 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:24,520 assumed that Mohammad wrote all of the Koran wrote is a very tricky word here. 39 00:03:25,719 --> 00:03:32,159 Ah. So officially God is the author of the crime. So when 40 00:03:32,159 --> 00:03:36,680 you say who wrote the Crian, it's supposed to be God, but yeah, 41 00:03:36,759 --> 00:03:40,560 transmitted through Muhammad, that would be the official way of saying it. 42 00:03:40,879 --> 00:03:45,960 Well, they say the same thing for the Bible. Moses wrote the Penitug, 43 00:03:46,759 --> 00:03:51,520 so Moses could not have been there before spacetime, before the creation of 44 00:03:51,639 --> 00:03:54,520 the earth and the first humans. So therefore God was sort of, you 45 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:59,280 know, grabbing Moses after the fact and saying, Okay, here's what happened, 46 00:03:59,319 --> 00:04:01,400 and he sort of guide at Moses's hand. It's that kind of thing 47 00:04:01,439 --> 00:04:06,000 with Mohammad and the Quran hind that yes and no. In the Bible, 48 00:04:06,039 --> 00:04:13,039 what most Christians believe it was inspired by God. God guided Moses revealed to 49 00:04:13,159 --> 00:04:16,480 him in an ethereal sense, while in the Quran, Muslims believe that it 50 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:21,360 is actually the literal words of God. It was verbatim. It's like a 51 00:04:21,399 --> 00:04:27,519 dictation. So God dictated every word and every letter of the Quran, not 52 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:31,360 in the sense of inspiring some details and left the rest for the human touch. 53 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:35,360 There is no human touch in the Quran. And the Hadith was that 54 00:04:35,639 --> 00:04:41,959 written in the same way allegedly, No, the hadith is the actual sayings 55 00:04:41,959 --> 00:04:45,800 of the prophet, So there is no dictation here. It's a chain of 56 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:49,040 narration. And then the hadith has massive classification. They call it actually the 57 00:04:49,079 --> 00:04:55,560 science of classification in Islam. Where there is authentic hadith, there is weak 58 00:04:55,600 --> 00:05:00,480 khadith. There is somewhere in between semi authentic. And it all comes down 59 00:05:00,519 --> 00:05:06,199 to the chain of narrators who said what and in what way and to what 60 00:05:06,399 --> 00:05:13,560 level they were known to be accurate in repeating the Chinese whispers if if you 61 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:17,680 want to call it that, the Bible too, like we've got the NIV 62 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:23,040 Bible and the New American Standard and the King James and the New King James 63 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:26,839 and all of these thousands of different variations. Any of that going on with 64 00:05:26,879 --> 00:05:30,000 the Koran, or is it one thing and you better not not change it 65 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,839 or will execute your kind of thing. Absolutely, it's the same thing in 66 00:05:33,879 --> 00:05:36,920 the Quran. Wild The funny thing, Seth, I'm glad you asked that, 67 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:41,120 because most Muslims will tell you that no, actually, the Quran, 68 00:05:41,399 --> 00:05:44,720 wherever you buy it, anywhere in the world, is going to be exactly 69 00:05:44,759 --> 00:05:48,000 the same Quran. But this is absolutely not true. It depends where you 70 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:53,000 buy the Quran from. There are two major copies. It's like the King 71 00:05:53,079 --> 00:05:56,480 James. The King James is the most known Bible everywhere in the world, 72 00:05:56,519 --> 00:05:59,959 so that there is Huffs and Welsh for the Choran. These are two different 73 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:04,000 versions of the Koran, and you will find the most spread. However, 74 00:06:04,399 --> 00:06:11,000 if you go to countries like Algeria or Iran or Yemen, you might get 75 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:15,120 your hands on some interesting versions of the Koran. There's about, as far 76 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:19,879 as I know, there is about somewhere between twenty seven to thirty three different 77 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:25,920 versions of the Koran. You were born in Egypt. Is that correct correct 78 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:30,519 yes to a Muslim family. No, I was born and raised Christian. 79 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:34,879 I am a Coptic Orthodox Christian. Well, I was a Coptic Orthodox Christian. 80 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:41,680 What's a Coptic Orthodox Christian? Optic is the word. It's an ancient 81 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:46,120 word for basically Egyptian. Because you know, how you say Russian Orthodox or 82 00:06:46,199 --> 00:06:50,839 Greek Orthodox. Usually the first word refers to a country or a geographic region, 83 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:55,399 while the second word is the denomination of Christianity that I belong to. 84 00:06:55,600 --> 00:07:01,759 So Coptic basically means Egyptian and Orthodox is Orthodox Egyptian Orthodox Christian. So if 85 00:07:01,959 --> 00:07:08,800 Islam is the predominant religion in Egypt and you are in a minority faith, 86 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:15,040 how are you treated? Very interesting? Ah? Sorry, Let's say, 87 00:07:15,879 --> 00:07:20,759 let me think about are you are you second class? Are you worried for 88 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:27,800 your safety when you know you are walking the streets and someone sees, I 89 00:07:27,839 --> 00:07:30,920 don't know, are you overtly Christian? Do you have Christian apperil or you 90 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:34,519 know in the States, we have Christian markers that people like, whether it's 91 00:07:34,839 --> 00:07:40,360 the cross necklace or the crown of thorn's tattoo. Let's say you're broadcasting your 92 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:45,560 Christianity in the streets. What kind of a reception do you expect? So 93 00:07:45,879 --> 00:07:48,680 Funnily enough, I do have the Coptic Christian tattoo. I'm not sure if 94 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:55,399 it is visible on my wrist here, but this is something most Coptic Christians 95 00:07:55,399 --> 00:07:58,079 in Egypt would have at a very young age. I had this that too, 96 00:07:58,079 --> 00:08:03,199 when I was twelve years old. It's kind of our way of putting 97 00:08:03,199 --> 00:08:07,519 the faith on our in a visible way. It's kind of revealing your identity 98 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:13,120 in a way. And it's funny because when you say are you a second 99 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,240 class citizen or are you treated differently? Well, it depends on the context 100 00:08:16,319 --> 00:08:20,680 and who's treating you. Are you in a dealing with a government organization, 101 00:08:20,759 --> 00:08:24,120 are you talking about down the street dealing with everyday people. Let's put it 102 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:30,560 this way. In many, many occasions, I was always on edge and 103 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:35,399 not sure of the person treating me, whether that is the guy selling me 104 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:39,759 stuff in the shop or just the next door neighbor, whoever it is. 105 00:08:39,159 --> 00:08:43,399 You always have this sense of I'm a second class citizen and it depends on 106 00:08:43,399 --> 00:08:48,200 the person in front of me how they will treat me. I don't know 107 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:50,879 that, so so you always have your guards up in a way. If 108 00:08:50,879 --> 00:08:54,679 that makes sense, it totally makes sense. There's a couple of other things 109 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:58,279 funny about Egypt. Is that one thing, even if you don't have the 110 00:08:58,879 --> 00:09:03,840 cross statued on your hand, your name could very well reveal your religion. 111 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:09,879 If your name is Michael or Gighis or Paul, you're surely is Christian. 112 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:16,519 If your name is Ali or Muhammad or any other Muslim, you're surely Muslim, 113 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:22,240 says Sometimes your name will just reveal your religious affiliations. And the last 114 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:26,559 thing is it's also on your ID card. That's also unique to Egypt. 115 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:28,639 I'm not sure if it is in any other Arab country or not. But 116 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:33,840 if a policeman stops you and asks for the ID on your ID card, 117 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:39,320 it says, if you are Christian or Muslim, are you allowed to put 118 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:43,679 no preference no religion on your ID? In Egypt? There is no such 119 00:09:43,799 --> 00:09:48,759 thing. You're either Christian or Muslim or Jew. But I've never seen it 120 00:09:48,799 --> 00:09:56,360 on any ID but you're allowed technically. Okay. So with the name Adam 121 00:09:56,639 --> 00:10:01,000 l Massri, are you named after the biblical Adam? I mean, would 122 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:03,679 that give you away? Well in a way, yes, Adam is a 123 00:10:03,759 --> 00:10:07,679 very common name in Egypt, well in the whole Middle East. So yes, 124 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:13,799 I'm named after the Great Adam. So I'm going to ask you the 125 00:10:13,919 --> 00:10:18,519 obvious next question that I ask all heathen activist or he even humanist activist. 126 00:10:18,799 --> 00:10:24,840 You had a deconstruction because you're helping others, But how did you get out 127 00:10:24,039 --> 00:10:28,360 of the faith? It was my own faith crisis, I think about ten 128 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:33,480 years ago. It's always hard to answer that question, Seth, because you 129 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:37,279 never go to bed one Tuesday night thinking you're Christian, and then you wake 130 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:41,120 up Wednesday morning, I'm like, I'm not anymore. So I guess I 131 00:10:41,159 --> 00:10:46,519 went through a phase of doubts and questioning myself and I read a lot and 132 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:52,279 it was very, very troubling. And it wasn't inner turmoil that led me 133 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:58,240 eventually to join a very reputable university in Australia to do a degree in Biblical 134 00:10:58,279 --> 00:11:03,120 studies and textual criticism, mainly for my own benefit, because I didn't want 135 00:11:03,159 --> 00:11:07,600 to leave my faith coming from a place of ignorance, so I really wanted 136 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,559 to throw myself into more knowledge, and by the end of that degree, 137 00:11:11,639 --> 00:11:18,480 I openly declared myself agnostic and from there different things led me in different ways. 138 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:22,159 Were there consequences for you, family, friends, your social circle? 139 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:28,159 Massive consequences. The first thing is I was excommunicated. I lost my entire 140 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:35,080 social circle because my whole life was entrenched in the church. So overnight I 141 00:11:35,159 --> 00:11:39,480 didn't have any friends at all, zero friends. It also led into my 142 00:11:39,639 --> 00:11:43,919 divorce, so I was married at the time when I had my faith crisis, 143 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:50,000 and then eventually that led to a divorce. I had some hiccups with 144 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:54,200 my family, mom and dad and brother. They are all living in Australia 145 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:58,679 and it took some time to restore the relationship with them, and luckily for 146 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:01,399 me, it eventually got to the point that they just accepted who I am 147 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:05,559 and it's my own personal journey. There was no shunning, but there was 148 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:09,200 You know that they always have this idea that you probably read a couple of 149 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:13,440 books that missed with your head. So we will convince you once we just 150 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:18,000 if you come and sit with Bishop such and such or priests such and such, 151 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:22,519 they will restore your faith. But more and more they realized that I 152 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:28,759 know more than that than they can restore. I guess it's interesting how these 153 00:12:28,799 --> 00:12:33,080 cultures like to pinball toward authority at the Capitol because I had the same thing. 154 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:39,120 I'm coming out. I'm realizing that two plus two did not actually equal 155 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:43,440 five, and that all this stuff doesn't make sense, and people started throwing 156 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:52,200 names apologists' books. Someone asked me to attend an apologist seminar because they have 157 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:58,559 a theology degree. Somehow, even before they heard him speak, they knew 158 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:03,120 he would speak the truth. They lean into these authorities, and personal thinking 159 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:07,000 seems to shut down. I don't know if you noticed that, Adam, 160 00:13:07,519 --> 00:13:11,399 I do, and I had this dual understanding. I could see for the 161 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:18,279 first time how I saw these people I just mere humans after all, while 162 00:13:18,399 --> 00:13:22,320 my family still thought of them as holy figures, that they are the bearers 163 00:13:22,519 --> 00:13:26,120 of light, they are the bearers of truth. So it was very interesting 164 00:13:26,159 --> 00:13:31,919 at that time because I just came out of the faith. I held these 165 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:35,679 people at some point in my life as holy people and the bearer of truth, 166 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:37,919 and if I needed to ask about anything, I would go to the 167 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:41,080 priest or, to the bishop, or whoever it is. Now I'm going 168 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:46,519 to an academic and I'm going to university to secular academics to get my answers 169 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:50,279 from. And it was at that time that I started saying, Wow, 170 00:13:50,919 --> 00:13:54,759 my worldview has changed, and I'm saying things for the first time, completely 171 00:13:54,759 --> 00:14:01,720 different from my family. It's funny how we are so conditioned bond to give 172 00:14:01,159 --> 00:14:07,879 extra equity to somebody who begins with the introduction reverend, pastor minister, at 173 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:11,440 least in the United States. And I tell this story. Forgive me if 174 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:16,440 you've heard it. Everybody who was watching and listening, but free flow. 175 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:22,759 The Florida Freethought Convention in Orlando was having its convention and there was a Friday 176 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:26,840 night costume party and I went as a priest, and so I got a 177 00:14:28,039 --> 00:14:35,480 very authentic priest outfit and I wore it out of my hotel room and got 178 00:14:35,519 --> 00:14:39,440 into the elevator when all the way down walked through the lobby, down the 179 00:14:39,519 --> 00:14:43,200 corridors and to the party. Well on my way. You should have seen 180 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:48,080 how people deferred to me. No idea who I was. They had no 181 00:14:48,159 --> 00:14:52,720 idea what my degree might have been in I could have been a serial killer, 182 00:14:52,799 --> 00:14:56,519 a gild Miletia. They have no idea. But I walk into the 183 00:14:56,519 --> 00:15:01,360 elevator and everybody's raucus, and they're all swapping stories and laughing, and they 184 00:15:01,519 --> 00:15:09,480 went stone quiet and start almost looked at the floor reverence toward me. Someone 185 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:13,200 asked me if a patron had died in the hotel, and I was there 186 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:20,399 to perform like last rites, and I thought to myself, the power that 187 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:28,559 the clerics hold just perceptions of credibility. Jim Palmer is a guy who he's 188 00:15:28,799 --> 00:15:31,840 not religious, but spiritual, and he and I have our disagreements, but 189 00:15:31,879 --> 00:15:35,159 he says a lot of interesting and sometimes really good stuff. But he says, 190 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:41,519 you know, somebody who has a pastoral title has no real Credibit is 191 00:15:41,559 --> 00:15:45,080 not more credible than anybody else. I don't know, I'm babbling. Adam, 192 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:48,639 do you have any thoughts on the moms and the clerics and the pastors 193 00:15:48,679 --> 00:15:52,600 and the reverence. I probably will say exactly what you just said. It's 194 00:15:52,639 --> 00:15:56,679 so funny how in especially in the Middle East, like you're describing how it 195 00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:00,919 is in America, in the Middle East, it's multiplied by ten. How 196 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:06,360 these people are very much regarded at a higher level. But since you're talking 197 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:08,399 about your friend as well, who is spiritual but not religious, I went 198 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:14,919 through that phase when I came out. It's like morphing. It's not like 199 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,440 I know, I said, by the end of my degree, I openly 200 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:22,919 declared myself agnostic. But there was a phase in between where I couldn't be 201 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:27,120 completely spiritually naked. In a way. I needed something to hang on too, 202 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:33,080 So I went out Christianity hanging onto some spiritual elements out there before I 203 00:16:33,159 --> 00:16:37,879 really could have the guts to declare myself agnostic or agnostic, etheist, whatever 204 00:16:37,919 --> 00:16:41,519 you call it. I always say that you're in the center of the bull's 205 00:16:41,519 --> 00:16:47,159 eye, which is high control religion, fundamental literalist, you know, Bible, 206 00:16:47,279 --> 00:16:51,000 Koran literalist. But you start to doubt, and you take the next 207 00:16:51,039 --> 00:16:55,200 step, well, the Bible is partially true or some of it's metaphor. 208 00:16:55,279 --> 00:16:56,960 And then before you know it, you take the next step and you say, 209 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:00,000 well, that's not a religion. I don't really need the Bible. 210 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:03,759 I love Jesus. And then maybe you take the next step and say, 211 00:17:03,799 --> 00:17:07,160 well Jesus may have been God, but he had some good things to say 212 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:11,960 and blah blah blah. And then you end up near the ends and the 213 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:18,039 next steps are there may be no God. That's terrifying, and it's totally 214 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:23,480 understandable why people would pause there in this nebulous area of well, I think 215 00:17:23,519 --> 00:17:29,519 there's something out there, and I'm not religious, but I'm spiritual. I 216 00:17:29,559 --> 00:17:33,039 think that's a position of safety because for many the next steps are pretty scary, 217 00:17:33,079 --> 00:17:37,839 and in your work as a secular therapist you probably see a lot of 218 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:42,079 that. I'm terrified to go the distance. I think maybe I'll just sort 219 00:17:42,079 --> 00:17:47,200 of sit here in the neutral zone, right totally, yeap. And this 220 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:51,759 is the huge difference you find between Adam the activist and Adam the secular therapist, 221 00:17:51,839 --> 00:17:56,000 because Adam the activist Adam on YouTube. On my YouTube channels, I 222 00:17:56,039 --> 00:18:03,359 promote critical thinking, I challenge scripture, and I basically debunk a lot of 223 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:07,279 beliefs on my channel. But when it comes to therapy, my role is 224 00:18:07,319 --> 00:18:11,079 not to debunk anything or challenge anything. It's my role is actually to meet 225 00:18:11,079 --> 00:18:15,079 the person where they're at. And it's a completely different position and it requires 226 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:21,920 a lot of discipline because at that point, you're basically trying to validate where 227 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:26,359 this person is at. You're trying to assure them that they're not going insane 228 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:30,119 for doubting. They have every reasonable reason to doubt, how they are doubting 229 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:34,599 and where they're at. And I get all sorts of different people, some 230 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:40,000 people who want to leave Islam and embrace Christianity, some people who want to 231 00:18:40,039 --> 00:18:45,039 leave the religion altogether. So yeah, it's an interesting world where you do 232 00:18:45,079 --> 00:18:51,319 the work as a religious trauma therapist. Still to come. It's pretty gutsy 233 00:18:51,839 --> 00:18:57,160 to say out loud there's a bunch of bullshit in the Quran, but Adam 234 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,079 has been doing that. We're going to find out more about this next. 235 00:19:07,279 --> 00:19:14,359 Thanks for your support on Patreon makes a difference Patreon dot com, slash Seth 236 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:18,680 Andrews. You get the show early, and you get the show absolutely commercial 237 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:26,519 free. Speaking here with Adam L Masri. He is a former religious person 238 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:33,640 and he is helping people in their own journeys. Two YouTube channels are they 239 00:19:33,759 --> 00:19:36,640 echoes of each other? I mean, do you do a version of one 240 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:41,759 video in English and then it's the same content in Arabic? No. I 241 00:19:41,799 --> 00:19:47,759 started the Arabic channel about seven or eight years ago. And when I started 242 00:19:47,759 --> 00:19:51,440 it, I started it just because I was I wanted to share my experience 243 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:55,880 with others. I wanted to find like minded people who had a similar journey 244 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:59,799 to mine, and it was my way to connect and share my two cents 245 00:19:59,839 --> 00:20:03,079 wor Little Dot. I knew at the time that it will grow into over 246 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:08,319 one hundred thousand subscribers one hundred and twenty now I guess fifteen million views. 247 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:15,079 It grew beyond my expectations, and it wasn't until about two years ago that 248 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,119 I realized that hang on a second here, Yes, while I'm doing this 249 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:23,160 work in Arabic, there is a huge gap in the English speaking world, 250 00:20:23,279 --> 00:20:30,039 specifically to understand Islam from an Arabic speaking person. So the material that I 251 00:20:30,079 --> 00:20:34,119 present on both channels are in a way completely different. I focus on certain 252 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:40,079 topics on the Arabic channel that is suited for the Arabic speaker, while in 253 00:20:40,079 --> 00:20:44,319 the English world I try to present my arguments in a slightly different way, 254 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:51,119 more focused on Islam and more suited to the Western to the Western world from 255 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:56,960 your perspective, to people, doubters, even apostates, atheists in high control. 256 00:20:57,559 --> 00:21:03,160 Let's say one of the third teen Islamic nations, right with Islamic governments, 257 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,079 Do they have access to your channel? Are they down in the basement 258 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:11,880 looking you up online and watching you and then secretly reaching out. It depends 259 00:21:11,279 --> 00:21:15,039 who the person and what which country they come from. So I can tell 260 00:21:15,039 --> 00:21:19,039 you that there are some people, let's say in Egypt, a lot of 261 00:21:19,039 --> 00:21:23,680 people are just watching me in the privacy of their own bedroom or office. 262 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:30,079 Usually my videos are watching private because no one is open about their current state 263 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:34,119 of belief. But then you have a country like Afghanistan, for instance. 264 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:38,920 This is a country that officially I received a number of emails from YouTube saying 265 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:45,440 that a government body in Afghanistan has requested for this video to be banned in 266 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:49,160 their country. And I have about fifty percent of my channel banned in Afghanistan. 267 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:55,319 Yet I received messages from people from Afghanistan saying, well, don't worry, 268 00:21:55,319 --> 00:21:59,359 brother, we will use VPN, or we found ways to browse your 269 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:03,920 videos and still watch you through the VPN. So it depends how tech heavy 270 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:07,200 the person is. It depends what country and what length they go to ban 271 00:22:07,319 --> 00:22:14,160 your material. So you do videos pointing out things like mistakes in the Quran, 272 00:22:15,279 --> 00:22:17,839 and then what do you go down to your bunker and lock the door 273 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,640 because you know people have declared war on you. Do you worry about your 274 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:25,200 safety? I always have to ask this to people taking on Islam. Do 275 00:22:25,279 --> 00:22:30,000 you worry about somebody who's going to exact Allah's justice against your physical body. 276 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:34,200 There is I have to be honest, there is a level of concern. 277 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:40,000 Yes, not to the level that I am worried looking over my shoulder all 278 00:22:40,039 --> 00:22:45,000 the time. But I received the threats. I received emails and messages from 279 00:22:45,079 --> 00:22:51,400 lawyers in Egypt saying that under the blasphemy law they filed cases against me in 280 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:53,480 the court. So one thing I am actually, I'm unable to go and 281 00:22:53,559 --> 00:22:56,160 visit my home country. I cannot go to Egypt because if I go to 282 00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:00,599 Egypt, I'll probably be arrested in the airport. The opportunity to be one 283 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,519 hundred percent sure if there are cases against me or not. But according to 284 00:23:03,559 --> 00:23:07,200 the messages that I received, there are cases against me in the court under 285 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:12,400 the blasphemy law. And I have reached out to the Australian Federal Police a 286 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:18,759 couple of times to report death threats that I received. But that's more out 287 00:23:18,799 --> 00:23:23,839 of being wise and being cautious in a way. I try to stay private, 288 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:29,480 not living in a bunker or anything. You're not crawling to the car 289 00:23:29,599 --> 00:23:33,720 and the prone position. Now, okay, So I open that can of 290 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:37,759 worms, mistakes and misstatements, myths, and lies in the Quran. Uh 291 00:23:37,839 --> 00:23:41,759 Oh, I'm going to have to ask for some examples, because I always 292 00:23:41,799 --> 00:23:45,279 heard the Koran was perfect, the perfect word of Allah. What are we 293 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:49,359 talking about. I can't remember what I presented in that particular video, but 294 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:53,119 I can tell you a lot of mistakes in the Koran. Specifically, there 295 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:57,480 are historical mistakes that are scientific mistakes in the Quran. It really depends. 296 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:03,559 I can give you example of each if you wish ture. So one good 297 00:24:03,599 --> 00:24:10,880 example, since I'm from Egypt, there's a verse in the Quran where Pharaoh 298 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:18,279 is calling someone named Herman and he's asking him to bake bricks to build a 299 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:22,519 massive tower to go up in the skies and find out about the God of 300 00:24:22,559 --> 00:24:26,200 Moses. So Pharaoh was apparently jealous from the God of Moses and wanted to 301 00:24:26,319 --> 00:24:33,680 build a tower using baked clay to reach the heavens. And in that video, 302 00:24:33,759 --> 00:24:37,799 I am arguing that if only the author of the Quran knew that the 303 00:24:37,839 --> 00:24:44,559 ancient Egyptians never built high rises and high towers using baked clays, ABC engineering 304 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,440 would say that the baked clay or the baked bricks will crumble under the heavyweight 305 00:24:48,519 --> 00:24:52,240 of the structure, so the Egyptians knew that, but the author of the 306 00:24:52,319 --> 00:24:57,599 Quran didn't know that. And of course I get all sorts of apologetic responses 307 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:02,240 trying to say, well, you're you're trying to say that Egyptians didn't use 308 00:25:02,279 --> 00:25:04,599 baked clay or baked bricks. I'm like, that's not the argument. The 309 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:10,000 argument. I never said that Egyptians didn't use baked clay, but they never 310 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:14,000 used it in high rises. Specifically, if the author of the Quran knew 311 00:25:14,039 --> 00:25:18,920 that the pyramid, one stone in the pyramid weighed about five tons, wouldn't 312 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,480 have set such averse. So that is one historical error in the Quran, 313 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:26,599 a scientific error in the Quran. And again there's a lot of refutations and 314 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:33,559 apologetic response, well, refutation attempts and apologetic response about how a character in 315 00:25:33,559 --> 00:25:40,839 the Quran named as Dulparnaine apparently went to the far edges of the earth and 316 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:45,920 found the place where the sun sets and it was setting in murky waters. 317 00:25:45,319 --> 00:25:51,920 And while it's very clear scientific error, again people try to refute it and 318 00:25:52,039 --> 00:25:56,119 say, well, it appeared to Dulparnaine in his eyes, in the way 319 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,880 he saw it, that it was setting in murky waters. But that's not 320 00:26:00,079 --> 00:26:03,920 what the Quran is saying. And again, I don't know to what length 321 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,079 do you want me to present the arguments and their refutations and the responses. 322 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:11,359 Oh, it sounds just like the Christianity apologists. If it happens to line 323 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,160 up with history, it verifies the Bible. If it doesn't, it's a 324 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:22,079 mistranslation, misinterpretation, metaphor, or the science and historians are all colluding to, 325 00:26:22,599 --> 00:26:26,759 you know, try to kill God. I don't know, it's silly 326 00:26:26,799 --> 00:26:30,400 putty. They can just sort of mash it into whatever they want. Doesn't 327 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:32,960 the Koran say, and I'm doing this for memory, and it's early and 328 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:37,000 I need more coffee. But doesn't it say the origin story of humankind is 329 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:44,000 the first human was harvested from a clot of blood instead of Adam and dirt. 330 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:48,759 Was it a clot of blood? In the Koran, it's yes and 331 00:26:48,759 --> 00:26:52,000 no. It doesn't necessarily talk about Adam as the first human, but it 332 00:26:52,039 --> 00:26:57,759 talks about how humans are created in the womb, and yes, it says 333 00:26:57,839 --> 00:27:03,799 that all human beings they start from being a clot of blood in the worm, 334 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,440 which is absolutely wrong. Well, when you bring these contradictions and problems 335 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:14,200 and morality issues to Muslims. Given the fact that I think, as I'm 336 00:27:14,279 --> 00:27:18,640 to understand it, most Muslims are like most Christians. Their scripture illiterate, 337 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:23,640 and they'll parrot of you, cherry picked things, maybe even chanting them. 338 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,759 I've heard a lot of Muslims do this. It's almost like listening to a 339 00:27:27,799 --> 00:27:32,079 parrot, an apologist parrot, where they've just got this thing and you know, 340 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,680 and God is good, all'll be great kind of thing. Does it 341 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:40,119 make a dance with anybody? When you point this stuff out? I have 342 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:44,920 to say, Seth that I found Muslims to be much more literate about their 343 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,079 books more than Christians. It's often the case that you would reveal a verse 344 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:52,400 in the Bible and a Christian believer wouldn't have a clue or the first time 345 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:57,680 they heard this verse. But it's hardly the case with Muslims. Perhaps that's 346 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:03,119 because part of the is faith is to memorize the Quran, so most of 347 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,160 them, whether they understand it fully or not, that's a different question. 348 00:28:06,279 --> 00:28:12,440 But they do remember the verses, and sometimes he gets this stoned face where 349 00:28:12,759 --> 00:28:17,400 they heard the verse before, they recited it a million times before, but 350 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:22,480 they never really pondered upon the meanings, and the moment you reveal something, 351 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,279 they're like, no, no, no, no, you got it wrong. 352 00:28:25,759 --> 00:28:29,039 The first point of attack is that you're not an Arabic speaker. And 353 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,880 once I revealed that actually I was born and raised and grew up in Egypt, 354 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:34,880 I am an Arabic speaker, they're like, ah, still, you're 355 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,319 not understanding it correctly, and you get into a different type of argument. 356 00:28:40,039 --> 00:28:45,559 So if they read the story of Muhammad marrying a six year old and then 357 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,519 molesting the child at nine, for to be honest, many people are quoting 358 00:28:49,799 --> 00:28:53,839 that, but they're not really going past they're not scratching past the surface. 359 00:28:55,319 --> 00:29:00,759 And perhaps you have the conversation that causes them to consider what they just have 360 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,000 been parroting in the past, and then they have that moral dilemma. Would 361 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:08,640 that be an example of what you're talking about, Not with this particular example, 362 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:15,359 because this particular story about Mohammed marrying a child has been exhausted over and 363 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:19,160 over and it's kind of that there's this level of stubbornness to say the argument. 364 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:25,000 Funny that you raised that because literally today I was watching a video by 365 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,759 a Muslim apologist known as Ali Daua, and he was talking about this. 366 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,920 He lives in the UK and most of his work is in the UK, 367 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,400 and he was arguing that what did the prophet do wrong? If in the 368 00:29:37,519 --> 00:29:41,519 UK, in Britain, Great Britain, one hundred years ago, if you 369 00:29:41,599 --> 00:29:45,640 read the law and he presented I cannot repeat what he said verbatim, but 370 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:51,279 he was arguing that in the UK, child's marriage was allowed up to one 371 00:29:51,319 --> 00:29:53,640 hundred or one hundred and fifty years ago, and the minimum age was twelve 372 00:29:53,759 --> 00:29:57,400 years old or something like that. So he says, if you go back 373 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:02,240 and see it in the context of time that it happened, the prophet didn't 374 00:30:02,279 --> 00:30:06,599 make anything wrong. This is a very, very famous and well known argument. 375 00:30:06,759 --> 00:30:11,319 So this is not the example that I would get people having an aha 376 00:30:11,359 --> 00:30:17,079 moment or being shocked. Most of my arguments are around areas related to other 377 00:30:17,119 --> 00:30:22,599 things like women's rights in Islam, things related to female genital mutilation, marital 378 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:27,640 rape, inequality under the justice system. These are the things that the average 379 00:30:27,759 --> 00:30:33,319 Muslim probably never heard about or have minimal knowledge around. It is child marriage 380 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:41,000 epidemic in islam dominant nations and even beyond in Islamic culture, child marriage something 381 00:30:41,559 --> 00:30:45,319 beyond the fringes. It is, but then you get the contradiction. It's 382 00:30:45,559 --> 00:30:48,400 a it's such a cognitive dissonance because if you look at a country like Egypt, 383 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:53,519 for instance, child marriage is illegal by the law. However it's happening 384 00:30:53,599 --> 00:30:57,759 right left and center, and you will find marriage celebrants, and you will 385 00:30:57,799 --> 00:31:02,720 find people to do the work, and you can register the marriage, and 386 00:31:02,759 --> 00:31:06,960 you can forge the age of the child, and you can go about it 387 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:11,359 completely legal despite the fact that it is illegal in the books of law. 388 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:15,039 So is it epidemic? Yes, it is, But at the same time 389 00:31:15,079 --> 00:31:18,920 someone can argue that how it is an epidemic when the country is actually considering 390 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:26,960 it unlawful. Imagine in Christianity saying Jesus not the Messiah. Is it true 391 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:32,359 that the Koran says Jesus is not the Messiah. We're going to talk about 392 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:47,000 that in just a second. Speaking here with ex Christian and human rights activist 393 00:31:47,079 --> 00:31:52,759 Adam L. Masri, you have a video that's titled the Quran's biggest mistake 394 00:31:52,279 --> 00:31:57,240 in saying Jesus is the Messiah. Again, I need you to educate me. 395 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:04,559 I always thought that the Koran presented Jesus as just another prophet and not 396 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,880 the Messiah. No, that the Koran keeps referring to Jesus as the Messiah, 397 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:13,759 and that's exactly what you just said, is the problem in the Koran. 398 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,839 How can the Quran refer to Jesus constantly as the Messiah son of Mary 399 00:32:19,799 --> 00:32:27,400 when it doesn't really understand or endorse and endorses the concept of what Christ really 400 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,920 means. Okay, well, let me make sure I'm understanding. So the 401 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:36,079 black and white verses of the Koran, you is Messiah, but Islam as 402 00:32:36,119 --> 00:32:40,559 a culture doesn't treat Jesus as the Messiah. So the concept of Messiah in 403 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:47,079 both Judaism and in Christianity is around salvation, bringing salvation, whether in the 404 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:53,359 Jewish context that salvation is earthly salvation or in the Christian theology where the salvation 405 00:32:53,559 --> 00:33:00,000 became more of a spiritual salvation and restoring the relationship between man and God. 406 00:33:00,119 --> 00:33:06,319 Christ or the Christ was that anointed figure that is supposed to come and have 407 00:33:06,359 --> 00:33:10,680 salvation for humanity, restore world peace and all that jazz. The funny thing 408 00:33:10,759 --> 00:33:16,279 is that the Quran then comes and endorses Jesus being the Messiah, but at 409 00:33:16,319 --> 00:33:22,839 the same time denies his crucifixion. There is no salvation that came with Christ 410 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:27,920 and definitely no world peace that came with Christ. So under what basis exactly 411 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,960 are trying to tell me? I'm asking the Qoran here on what basis you're 412 00:33:32,039 --> 00:33:37,920 claiming that Jesus is the Messiah if you're refusing every context that he can be 413 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:45,200 the Messiah the Savior? Am I then to understand that islamis revere Mohammed more 414 00:33:45,279 --> 00:33:50,119 than Jesus Ah, that's a slippery slope. I mean, I know it's 415 00:33:50,119 --> 00:33:54,119 a subjective, it's your perception and you don't have to answer Adam, but 416 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:59,799 I just I never hear Muslims talk about Jesus because it's always about Mohammed. 417 00:34:00,039 --> 00:34:06,640 The Quran speaks of Jesus very very highly as the most regarded figure. However, 418 00:34:07,039 --> 00:34:10,880 in the minds of everyday Muslim, they think that Muhammad is the finest 419 00:34:12,119 --> 00:34:15,679 human being that came to earth, and definitely they revere him way more than 420 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:21,880 anyone or anything else. You will find a very famous chanting in times of 421 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,039 crisis in the Middle East. You will find a lot of people chanting Faedeka 422 00:34:25,079 --> 00:34:30,800 abu umi asula law, which means even my mom and Dad, I consider 423 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:36,639 a sacrificial to you or prophet. This is how they consider the prophet Jesus. 424 00:34:37,199 --> 00:34:40,360 That's sobering. The mom and dad are raising an eyebrow, going, 425 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:45,480 oh, you know, sleep with one eye open because we might be sacrificed 426 00:34:45,599 --> 00:34:50,920 for the prophet. Let's pinball to your book. How did Christianity begin? 427 00:34:51,639 --> 00:34:58,719 Really think about the book as one of bart Hrman's books. It's all about 428 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,440 how Christianity urged from Judaism, how they came to form their books, how 429 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:08,840 they came to form their theology, and the earliest sects or different denominations. 430 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:13,079 That there was no denominations officially at the time, but there were many, 431 00:35:13,199 --> 00:35:16,719 many different groups that believe different things and they all call themselves Christians. And 432 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:21,840 in the Western world it's very common knowledge. But one of the reasons why 433 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,639 I wanted to write that book is that one, bart Erman's books are not 434 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:30,440 available in the Middle East. Two there's hardly any of that material available in 435 00:35:30,599 --> 00:35:35,239 Arabic for the Christian communities in the Middle East. I'm talking about the communities 436 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:40,480 that they cannot read English, and their English illiteracy in our world is very 437 00:35:40,519 --> 00:35:45,880 common. So I wanted to produce something in Arabic on that topic. And 438 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:51,000 it was in my own words and in my own knowledge as I learned things 439 00:35:51,119 --> 00:35:53,880 during my university years, and I did, as I mentioned earlier, my 440 00:35:54,079 --> 00:36:00,239 degree in Biblical Studies. I wanted to put that in an easy narrative to 441 00:36:00,599 --> 00:36:06,000 educate the average Arabic speaker. Is there an English version or just in Arabic 442 00:36:06,119 --> 00:36:09,480 right now from my book? No, I haven't. I haven't translated in 443 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:14,079 English, And I thought one reason is that there are many, many famous 444 00:36:14,159 --> 00:36:17,480 and big authors who wrote on the topics. I didn't feel the need for 445 00:36:17,639 --> 00:36:22,760 my book to be in English as well. So now you're counseling, You're 446 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:28,119 working with people who are deconstructing. What do they need? What are the 447 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,519 trends you are hearing as people are doing what they do. Finally asking questions 448 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:37,440 or asking for permission to ask questions. What are you seeing out there? 449 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:42,280 Brother? All sorts of things, not only as a therapist, but since 450 00:36:42,559 --> 00:36:47,519 I joined RfR or Recovering from Religion, and since also Recovering from Religion, 451 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:54,119 religion has become an Australian organization as well. So now we have recovered from 452 00:36:54,239 --> 00:37:00,639 religion Australia, and I started working with them a number of months ago, 453 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:07,480 plus being on the Secular Therapy Project. Working with these two organizations, you 454 00:37:07,639 --> 00:37:10,519 find a lot of people with different needs, and the needs vary all the 455 00:37:10,599 --> 00:37:17,000 way from someone struggling with the mental capacity or the mental burden I should say, 456 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:22,559 from questioning their faith and losing their faith and all that, all the 457 00:37:22,599 --> 00:37:27,079 way to people who already made peace with the doubts and they already abandoned their 458 00:37:27,079 --> 00:37:30,679 religion, but they are struggling with the social aspect of it, the family 459 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:35,480 shunning, the coming out. So you have an entire spectrum of how different 460 00:37:35,559 --> 00:37:42,440 people experience trauma. And one of the wonderful things that are both globally and 461 00:37:42,599 --> 00:37:47,639 Australia provide is the support groups for these people. Whatever you're at, whatever 462 00:37:47,679 --> 00:37:54,159 you're experiencing, there are other people who experienced similar feelings and similar questioning and 463 00:37:54,320 --> 00:38:00,800 doubt and trauma. You will find a lot of the LGBTQ communities who because 464 00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:06,360 of their faith, they couldn't come out, or even when they come out, 465 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:10,199 they struggle with their own sexual identity or sexual orientation. It's a huge 466 00:38:10,519 --> 00:38:15,320 spectrum seth to talk about in I know it's a question, I mean, 467 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:19,880 you know, you and I are both deconstructed. In my own journey. 468 00:38:21,119 --> 00:38:25,440 I was struck by how freeing it was that I was no longer being told 469 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:31,400 who to judge. Absolutely, You're spot on and one yes. I felt 470 00:38:31,519 --> 00:38:37,199 liberated and now accepting of everyone and their own experience. And one funny thing 471 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:43,159 I say to my dad, who is still a practicing Christian church goer till 472 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,440 today, whenever he talks to me about my experience, this is something I 473 00:38:46,519 --> 00:38:51,039 tell him all the time. It's so funny. What I tell him is 474 00:38:51,519 --> 00:38:54,639 it is so funny, Dad, I actually feel that once I abandoned Christianity, 475 00:38:54,719 --> 00:39:00,719 once I denounced Christianity, I became more Christian. And he looks at 476 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:04,159 me puzzle like, what do you mean you became more Christian after you left 477 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:08,239 Christianity? Excuse me? I'm like, yeah, Well, if you consider 478 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:15,079 Christianity as live like Christ except all love people wherever they are, That's exactly 479 00:39:15,159 --> 00:39:20,800 how I'm living my life. If that is your definition of christian then I'm 480 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:23,679 just living that. I just don't believe in all the fluff around it and 481 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,440 the things that require me to believe. I just don't believe. I just 482 00:39:27,519 --> 00:39:30,559 love the people. Adam, you have a very soothing way about you. 483 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:32,679 I can see if I was, if I would look, I may just 484 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:37,519 call you anyway, despite the seventeen hour time difference. Maybe if I'm having 485 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:42,199 a challenge, I'm just going to call you and let you soothingly walk me 486 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:46,239 through whatever crisis I'm in, because you have a very gentle, calming demeanor 487 00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:51,760 about you, And I mean, you'd be the call I think i'd want 488 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:53,599 if I was on that journey. If I ever get down there, I'm 489 00:39:53,599 --> 00:39:57,760 going to shake your hand and also give a big hug to my dear friend 490 00:39:58,199 --> 00:40:02,119 who works with RfR share this us. She's just a precious, precious person 491 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:07,039 and really fast. Give me your website, tell people how to find you 492 00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:12,920 and your work. Yeah, my website is as my name is spelled on 493 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:16,480 the screen, Adam Ilmasri dot online. And the way to find me online 494 00:40:16,559 --> 00:40:21,599 is basically if whether you go on Google or YouTube and you just type Adam 495 00:40:21,639 --> 00:40:25,079 and Master, you will find both my Arabic and English speaking channels. Whichever 496 00:40:25,199 --> 00:40:30,159 language you speak, You'll find a lot of material on there. I'm also 497 00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:34,880 on Instagram on Facebook, so yeah, just google Adam and Master and you'll 498 00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:37,920 find it all and I'll put the links in the description box. Now, 499 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,039 if you and I were still, if we were in the Islamic faith, 500 00:40:40,079 --> 00:40:45,719 how would we end our exchange? Would we say a salamo or whatever it 501 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:51,920 is? What would I say? Well, ask works both as a greeting 502 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,199 to come in and to leave, So you don't say l anymore. So 503 00:40:55,320 --> 00:41:00,159 you say Salam alekum, starting with the s salamok See, it sounds much 504 00:41:00,199 --> 00:41:04,039 more musical coming out of your mouth, So I'm just going to leave it 505 00:41:04,159 --> 00:41:07,079 at that. Adam el Masri. It's an honor to be able to have 506 00:41:07,199 --> 00:41:12,639 this conversation. We've got our problems in the States. Obviously, the front 507 00:41:12,679 --> 00:41:17,960 burner, the wildfire is the looming death of democracy and decency under the shadow 508 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:23,519 of Christian nationalists, etc. But Islam does remain a critical issue that we 509 00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:29,239 in the West need to be speaking about more. And so I'm honored to 510 00:41:29,599 --> 00:41:34,159 be given the opportunity to be able to use this conversation to stignal boost that. 511 00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:37,000 I'm going to send everybody to your site and your channels and your work 512 00:41:37,519 --> 00:41:40,679 and let's talk again soon. Okay, thank you so much, Thank you 513 00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:44,679 for having me, and I am honored to be with you. Follow the 514 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:50,000 Thinking Atheist on Facebook and Twitter for a complete archive of podcasts and videos, 515 00:41:50,199 --> 00:41:53,920 products like mugs and t shirts featuring the Thinking Atheist logo, links to atheist 516 00:41:54,000 --> 00:42:00,159 pages and resources, and details on upcoming free thought events and conventions. I'll 517 00:42:00,199 --> 00:42:02,440 go on to our website, The Thinkingatheist dot com.