Ask What Up? What Up? What Up? Everybody? Welcome to another
episode of Let's Ask Paul, the podcast where we answer all of your pressing
electrical questions submitted through our online portal over at Paul Abernathy dot com. This
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to go. So anyway, welcome to today's episode. We're going to answer
a question on today's episode and hopefully we can get the answers to the individual
that submitted this in so that they walk away with a little bit of clarity.
So I'm going to read you the question as I always do, and
I will give you and try to break it down and give you the answer.
Okay, so this question was submitted. It says, Hey, Paul,
I love your podcast. I listened to it every day and listen all
the way to the end of all of them. WHOA, there you go.
That's what I'm talking about. It, that's what I'm talking about.
A dedicated listener. You gotta love that, right. Don't listen at halfway
stuff or quarter stuff. You gotta listen all the way through because you never
know what tidbits a goodness you're gonna get. Maybe I'll have an epiphany or
something and boom, just give you some information out of nowhere, so you
might miss it if you leave too soon. All right, So he says,
and I'm sure he's gonna listen to this podcast because he listens to every
one of them all day, So that's good. Okay. He says,
I have two questions. Okay, he's doubling up on me. I have
two questions for you. I was curious about search protectors and generator inlets counting
towards circuits. For instance, if I have a twenty space twenty circuit panel,
I have both of those. Can I put tandems to make use or
excuse me to make up those four spaces? I was told I was able
to. I can see arguments both ways. Okay, that's the first question.
So let me address this first question first. Okay, that was well,
yeah, I know. I don't want to. I want to give
you too much overload. I want to answer the first question first. Okay.
So first thing is first, the listing of the panel is going to
be very important. If this is a twenty circuit twenty space, then that's
all you can put in there, so it may or may not allow you
to use tandems. And remember, a tandem is just taking one leg let's
say Phase A, and adding two more circus to phase A, so it
is still going to take up a space in the actual pen on the panel
board right in the enclosure. So one of the things we have to remember
is we have to look at the National Electrical Code and we have to look
at four zero eight dot fifty four and that's the maximum number of overcurrerent devices.
Now, if the manufacturer limits you to twenty, and the panel's not
designed for tandems, okay, it has a CTL and it limits your current
circuit. Limiting means the number that you can have in there, then you're
not gonna be able to just throw tandems in there. And they wouldn't fit.
They're not supposed to anyway, unless you're a mcgiver and you make them
fit. If the panel is rated for it, then you can use tandems
and it would be just another another space. It's no different. If I
use a tandem on a single space, then I would do two singles.
Again, they are two separate circuits utilizing one breaker. Because so that's counts
as two of your spaces. And and that's how you get it. When
you look at the label of the panel. If it's a like a I
don't know, let's say a twenty thirty or whatever, you know, just
throwing different ones out in the top of my head there. But if you
look at the label and it gives you different options, and it doesn't just
stop at twenty. If it stops at twenty, then that's it. That's
a maximum you can put in there. And so when somebody tells you they
can just throw a tandement and what would be that would kind of defeat the
purpose? Right if I have twenty circuits and that's supposed to be limiting,
but yet I'm allowed to put all kinds of extra breakers in there. Whether
I just loaded with TANEM that essentially takes a twenty and makes it a forty
circuit panel, right, And again that's not limiting anything. That's just allowing
you to put unlimited circuses. So you got to look at the panels.
So when you look at four zero eight got fifty four, it says maximum
number of overcurrent devices. Now I'm going to tell you whether your search protectors
going in there or you're the feed that's coming in from your generator in let
those take up spaces and they connect to an overcurrent device. So when you
look at four zero eight to fifty four, it says maximum number of overcurrent
devices. Says a panelboard. We're talking the guts here, folks. The
breaker connects two says a panelboard shall be provided with physical means to prevent the
installation of more overcurrent devices than that number for which the panelboard was designed,
rated and listed for. So that's when you see those CTL ratings, and
you have certain panelboards that that's say twenty circuit and that's it, and you'll
see some where you look at it and it'll say like thirty forty or you
know, different values like that. Then you have the and I don't know,
getting a brain fart on the different you know examples we have out there,
but you will see that it'll be very clear on the legend whether or
not you're able to use tandem breakers. And of course if you look at
the panelboard, you'll see that the bus looks slightly different where you're able to
use tandems and where you're not allowed to use tandems. Okay, now with
that scenario, it's still going to count. So you know, just because
you think it's not feeding something, it's being connect two and it's in your
panelboard, so obviously it's taking up a space. So almost certainly it's going
to count. Now when you look at four zero eight p. Fifty four,
it also gives another sentence that is very helpful that kind of hammers this
thing home. It says, for the purpose of this section, a two
pole circuit breaker or fusible switch shall be considered two overcurrent devices. A three
pole circuit breaker or fusible switch shopping considered three overcurrent devices. So a tandem
breaker is still going to have what two poles on it, then it's going
to count is two circuits as far as the count that goes in the panel.
Now, again, there are people that will say, well, no,
I'm able to put that tandem in there. Maybe it's an older style
that didn't have the limiting there, and they might say, yeah, I
can easily get that tandem in there. But it's all about the rating of
the pan aboard. So whether you can or you can't is all dependent on
the manufacturer and then from the legend that they put inside of the panel covered.
Okay, So that's the easiest way I can answer that question, because
no, if it was a twenty circuit panel and that was it, then
no, I would say you cannot put a tandem in there, because now
what you're gonna have is twenty one okay, and I like in your scenario,
then you would have a problem because you would be exceeding the rating of
the panel board what it was listed for. And if Heaven forbids. Something
happens, somebody like me comes out there, they're gonna look at the legend,
they're gonna look up this info and they're gonna see what you did.
And we're gonna say, you know what, and promise me if you know
you know how the old saying is, if something goes wrong, it's always
electrical, right, it always blame electrical. You gotta fire and something,
it's always electrical. Well, as a code person that goes out there and
looks at installations, one of the thing we're gonna look at and see is
what all you did wrong? And then we're gonna hang our hat on and
say, well, that could have caused it. And you're the one that's
going to have to be defending yourself of those examples where you're you're guilty before
you prove your innocence because you violated some listing or something in the code.
So let that be the best way I can answer that one. There.
Don't just listen to people say oh, you can put whatever you want in
there, okay, if you don't need to be a mcgiver, just got
to make sure you look at the listing of the panel, look at the
legend, and it'll tell you whether or not you can or not. Just
because something fits doesn't make it right. Okay, right, Okay, So
there's a second part. There's a second question here, and so we got
to read that one. Okay. The second question is related to EV chargers
and the app. Okay, so this is talking about people have EV systems.
You now, the Tesla's and all that. You have this app that
can control certain aspects of it. And when we're doing a load calculation,
let's say on a dwelling, and you're adding these EV chargers, and again,
you're gonna take these at one hundred and twenty five percent, because that's
what the code's gonna tell us under six twenty five. But people are saying,
well, if I'm considering this a continuous load, which six twenty five
does, and we'll talk about where in a minute. When you're doing a
load calculation, and there's some kind of management system on the building or the
structure, an automatic load management system that will limit certain loads. So maybe
it's sixty amps, but they have a way it's set up that in the
unit it's going to limit it to forty or limit it to thirty or whatever.
The limiting factor is that is built into the equipment. Okay, so
I'm going to read this question because again it's really important to the context to
the questions so that I can kind of explain what's really going on here.
Okay, so it again, let me read it back again. It says
the second question is related to EV chargers and the app. So most of
them can be wired different sizes and it is set up through the app.
So if I install one that can be set to a maximum of sixty amps,
but I install it and said it to forty amps? Is that code
compliant with six twenty five forty two? Item three says it needs to be
passed or protected only accessible to qualified persons. But the homeowners are in control
of the app in my experience, so how would you be able to install
at the lower options? Thanks in advance, great question, and it's important
that we understand that. Now. I'll remind you, fella, you didn't
give me your code reference of what year you're using twenty twenty twenty twenty three.
All you people out there, listen to me, Listen to me.
Always remind me what code section you're in, I mean code cycle you're in.
Because this is a prime example where it's the references changed a little bit
for the twenty twenty three still under our section forty two, but the structure
changed. So always let me know. Obviously I could I could tell which
one you're in. You're in the twenty twenty edition of the NBC. But
again, all those out there that submit questions through Paul abernatty dot com,
give me a favor. Make sure you give me the the code cycle you're
working in, because I am working in so many cycles and I want to
make sure that I give you the right references we're necessary. It's very important
to me, all right, So we are going to go in the twenty
twenty edition of the n EC to answer this question. We're gonna look at
six twenty five dot forty two, which is rating and as you see here,
and I'll read it to you so that you don't have to worry about
reviewing it. It says a power transfer equipment shall have sufficient ratings supply the
loads served. Okay, electric vehicle charging loads shall be considered to be continuous
loads for the purpose of this article. Certain that's Article six twenty five.
By the way, service and feeder shall be sized Okay. Now, if
we're sizing the service now brand circuits to these things, again, is one
hundred twenty five percent of whatever's on the nameplate, that is the actual load
being served. Okay. Now, when it comes to service and feeders,
they shall be sized and accordance with the product rating. What is on it?
What are the amps on what it puts out? Okay? Analysis is
where an automatic load management system is used. The maximum equipment load on a
service or feeder shall be the maximum load permitted by the automatic load management system.
Right, so whatever the system is set to do or put out,
then that's what we're going to be using in our service calculation or our service
or feeder load calculation. Now it also states here there's a bunch of tanned
out information, so you really got to go and look at it. It
says adjustable settings shall be permitted on fixed in place equipment only. So it's
assuming this EV charger is fixed in place. Okay. If adjustments have an
impact on the rating label means it can lower the value that's on the label.
If that's how your installer sets it up based maybe and what is this
important, Well, maybe you're adding an EV system to a house that's existing,
and you did the low calcum you don't have as much capacity as you
think. Maybe you can't get sixty amps out of additional capacity out of this,
but they don't want to go through a service change, they don't want
to go through an upgrade. So you, as the installer, get in
and while it may be sixty amps, you may be able to dial it
back to forty amps, and maybe that means that the existing service will work
fine and the person doesn't have to go through the expense of a service change
a service upgrade. Right, So that's a benefit to you if you know
how to do all the math, You know how to calculate things out,
so permitted to do that. Okay. Those changes shall be in accordance with
the manufacturer's instructions, so make sure you can do that, and the manufacturer
allows that reduction or a movement of potential current okay, and adjusted rating shall
appear with sufficient durability. That's the label to withstand the environment being used in
the ratings. So you got to have a label. Make sure you know
this is usually going to be for most cases dwelling wise. For it's kind
of what he's asking. It's probably going to be inside of a garage or
whatever, so it's going to be a pretty conditioned space. It goes on
to say electric vehicles supply equipment, which is what he's asking about, with
restricted access to the ampure adjustment means shall be permitted to have ampure ratings that
are equal to the adjusted current setting. Okay. So again at this point,
if I can just the amps back again for the example we just gave,
it is okay to do that, okay, as long as it has
this restricted access ability. And so when I read the question, it doesn't
sound restricted to me. If you have an app that allows unqualified persons we'll
talk about that in a minute to get in and change these settings, it
kind of defeats the purpose. If we're taking existing service and adding EV to
it and the sick amp. Let's say it's a sixty A level two charger,
but the house doesn't have that capacity, but the manufacturer allows us to
adjust it down to say forty amps, and that would be okay on the
existing a service or feeder. Then we can do that with that restricted access
And who are we restricting. We're restricting somebody else from coming along and changing
what we set in place. Okay, all right. So it also goes
on and says, sizing the service and feeder to match the adjusted the adjusting
means, which is what we adjusted it maybe down from sixty to forty,
all right. Sizing the service or feeder based on us doing that shall be
permitted. And it's all because of the examples I just gave you. Now,
if it's new construction, you're already probably gonna figure this all in at
sixty amps and everything's good, and you don't need to worry about restrictions,
and you're just gonna let that thing run and it's gonna have its full sixty
amps if that's what your charger is putting out, all right. Now,
it goes on to say, and here's a portant, because we were talking
about that restricted access, and the user doesn't sound like the homeowner here is
restricted from anything on his installations, so that's probably a problem. So let's
look at It says restricted access shall prevent the user from gaining access to the
adjusting means to raise back up those amps. Okay, And it says restricting
access restricted access shall be accomplished by at least one of the following Okay,
Number one, a cover or door that requires the use of a tool to
open. All right, So again we can't fix stupid. So if you
install something it's behind the cover of a kind of door and they can't get
to these controls, whether it's a key or something, they if they go
out of their way to get in there to do something, then you know
what stupid is. As stupid does, you're not going to be responsible for
that. As the electrician. If they crank it back up and they have
a problem trip in their service or a feeder, it starts overloading, that's
on them, Okay, but that is one option. The next one would
be locked doors accessible only to a qualified person. So if it's behind a
locked door and it's only accessible to qualified remember your homeowner is not the qualified
person. They're not so they should not have access to these controls, and
I would not give them access through an app. I would think that apps
have certain lockout features where a password that you need from a dealer or something,
so you can't get into these settings unless you put in a certain password,
And as a dealer, I would not give them these passwords. I
would not let them have their basic function. But I'm not letting them get
into an area where they could move up or down their apps. Okay,
based on what this rule states. Now, I can't control the manufacturers and
what they let you get into their software, but me as an inspector,
if this is the case, i'd want to know whether or not who has
access. If you're basing your adding Let's say this EVS to an existing service
that might not have the capacity if it's full sixty amps evs, but maybe
forty was okay because you did a low COLC. Then I would want to
have some assurance that the homeowner can't just come in and do it, at
least not easily. Right. Obviously they can break doors, open doors,
but why the hell would they do that? Right, I'm just saying,
why would they do that? Well? Okay, last one is I think
is the one you're referencing in what you're pushing to is password protected commissioning software
access only to qualified person. Now, notice this says commissioning software, not
your app that might change other features and do the we're talking about once you
set it up, once you installed, once you set those votes. Excuse
me, those amps at the level that's come patible with their existing system Once
you do that, then it's password protected, it's locked out. There's a
big difference between commissioning, setting everything up, getting everything set up to meet
this, and then giving them access to an app. If your app does
not restrict them access to changing those the apps up and down, then that's
a problem and I would contact the manufacturer and say there's something wrong. And
my experience is that usually when you're setting things up, there is certain areas
that can be password protected out and a homeowner says, well, it's mine,
I should be able to do whatever I want. Absolutely not. That's
why you get a professional to install it. And again it's one of those
things where the homeowner says, prior to twenty twenty three, by the way,
I don't want a receptacle on my island. It's my house. I
can do what I want. And I, as an electricians say no,
you don't have that option. I am going to install a receptacle. I'm
going to meet the code. Well, they can have a pissie fit all
they want, but I've got to meet code. I'm the electrician. I'm
going to have an inspection. This is the same thing. Once you commission
it out, you get it all set up, you set it at the
right amps that is adequate to run on that system. And if it's new
construction and you're going to design everything so it can run it at the full
sixty amps anyway, But at the end of the day, absolutely not.
I would not let the homeowner have access. It clearly states it's restricted access.
They do not get access to crank that thing up. Because you're commissioning
it, you're setting it up, you're setting the levels that are indicative of
the system that you're installing it on. That's it. You give them an
app. They are not going to get into those what I consider dealer only
features. Okay, the other stuff they can circumvent. They can crack a
door open, they can use the tool, they can do a lot whatever.
But if you're going to use the software, then you're gonna have to
make sure that they don't get access because they are never considered a qualified person
ever. So to me, that's what forty two three is all about,
right, And hopefully that answers your question because that's my feeling on it.
How you know, All right, there you go, All right, folks,
Hey, I appreciate you, thanks for listening to this. Podcast.
It wasn't overly long one, but I felt some people are gonna get something
out of that. The follow up here, folks, is make sure you
check out the panels and yes, those breakers do count the spaces. Check
the listening on a panel, and again see if it allows you to add
extra stuff like tandems. If it's designed for it, they do count a
tandems of one that takes up one space. If it's got two poles,
it counts as two poles in their number. And then for dealing with ev
oor ev se, when it says restricted access, it means it restricted access.
Okay, all right, till next time, folks, stay safe,
God bless and hope you got something out of this episode. Until we meet
again, remember you can go to Paul Abernathy dot com and submit all your
questions. I will do my best, and if you have a follow up
to a question, just go back to Paul Abernaci dot com. Let me
know what episode, give me a summary of your question as it pertains to
the actual episode. Don't make me go back and read it. Give me
a little bit of summary and I will try to answer it for you in
a follow up. Until next time, take care o