1 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:35,719 Ask What Up? What Up? What Up? Everybody? Welcome to another 2 00:00:35,719 --> 00:00:40,000 episode of Let's Ask Paul, the podcast where we answer all of your pressing 3 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:45,560 electrical questions submitted through our online portal over at Paul Abernathy dot com. This 4 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:49,479 is a free service, folks, So um, if you have those pressing 5 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:53,719 electrical questions, whether it's theory questions, whether it's the code questions, maybe 6 00:00:53,719 --> 00:00:59,039 it's business questions. And I've have experienced a little bit of everything when it 7 00:00:59,039 --> 00:01:03,560 comes to electrical trade, so feel free to come on over to Paul Avnathy 8 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:06,920 dot com and submit your questions and I will answer them either in an email 9 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:11,879 directly back to you or if selected on an upcoming podcast much like this episode 10 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:18,280 today. And I will tell you that our episodes are sponsored not only by 11 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:25,519 Wicks, but also by Electrical Code Academy. It is the premiere electrical education 12 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:30,959 site that has blogs, has all kinds of good stuff for you. I've 13 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:36,799 got some free courses up there, exam prep courses and as well as some 14 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:41,159 pay courses. But we also have the famous fast tracks programs. Whether you're 15 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:45,079 trying to learn the NC or you're seasoned and you want to just get better 16 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:49,480 at residential, commercial, industrial grounding and bonding, or even electrical theory, 17 00:01:49,719 --> 00:01:53,480 HVAC, electrical, all of those type of things. We have courses there 18 00:01:53,879 --> 00:01:59,959 that are going to be, I promise you more intensive and extensive than each 19 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,560 thing you've ever seen. I'm here to teach you the code, and our 20 00:02:02,599 --> 00:02:07,359 programs are designed specifically, or I wouldn't offer them if they're not going to 21 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:12,240 teach you the National Electrical Code. Now, the unique thing about like our 22 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:15,240 residentials and commercial is that it goes beyond the code. It actually gives you 23 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:20,840 all the practical information you need to understand in that area of the field, 24 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:23,400 whether it's residential wiring or commercial wiring. So that's an added bonus. With 25 00:02:23,479 --> 00:02:28,439 some activities, they get graded and you get some feedback on it. But 26 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:32,240 remember those courses if we're learning, and you keep pushing through because there's so 27 00:02:32,319 --> 00:02:36,840 much content to learn in those But if you're studying for an exam, or 28 00:02:36,879 --> 00:02:39,800 you want to learn the NYC a little bit better, if you're an inspector 29 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:45,199 or supervisor, then our Fast Tracks Black or Fast Tracks Plus is the way 30 00:02:45,199 --> 00:02:50,360 to go. So anyway, welcome to today's episode. We're going to answer 31 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,639 a question on today's episode and hopefully we can get the answers to the individual 32 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:57,919 that submitted this in so that they walk away with a little bit of clarity. 33 00:02:58,199 --> 00:03:02,000 So I'm going to read you the question as I always do, and 34 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:06,120 I will give you and try to break it down and give you the answer. 35 00:03:06,479 --> 00:03:08,879 Okay, so this question was submitted. It says, Hey, Paul, 36 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:14,439 I love your podcast. I listened to it every day and listen all 37 00:03:14,479 --> 00:03:16,159 the way to the end of all of them. WHOA, there you go. 38 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:20,639 That's what I'm talking about. It, that's what I'm talking about. 39 00:03:20,719 --> 00:03:23,280 A dedicated listener. You gotta love that, right. Don't listen at halfway 40 00:03:23,319 --> 00:03:27,759 stuff or quarter stuff. You gotta listen all the way through because you never 41 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,319 know what tidbits a goodness you're gonna get. Maybe I'll have an epiphany or 42 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:36,479 something and boom, just give you some information out of nowhere, so you 43 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:39,400 might miss it if you leave too soon. All right, So he says, 44 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:43,400 and I'm sure he's gonna listen to this podcast because he listens to every 45 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:45,759 one of them all day, So that's good. Okay. He says, 46 00:03:45,759 --> 00:03:47,840 I have two questions. Okay, he's doubling up on me. I have 47 00:03:47,919 --> 00:03:54,479 two questions for you. I was curious about search protectors and generator inlets counting 48 00:03:54,520 --> 00:04:00,319 towards circuits. For instance, if I have a twenty space twenty circuit panel, 49 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:04,439 I have both of those. Can I put tandems to make use or 50 00:04:04,479 --> 00:04:09,439 excuse me to make up those four spaces? I was told I was able 51 00:04:09,479 --> 00:04:13,479 to. I can see arguments both ways. Okay, that's the first question. 52 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:17,680 So let me address this first question first. Okay, that was well, 53 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:20,279 yeah, I know. I don't want to. I want to give 54 00:04:20,319 --> 00:04:24,360 you too much overload. I want to answer the first question first. Okay. 55 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:27,680 So first thing is first, the listing of the panel is going to 56 00:04:27,759 --> 00:04:31,000 be very important. If this is a twenty circuit twenty space, then that's 57 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:35,279 all you can put in there, so it may or may not allow you 58 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:40,800 to use tandems. And remember, a tandem is just taking one leg let's 59 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:45,560 say Phase A, and adding two more circus to phase A, so it 60 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:51,000 is still going to take up a space in the actual pen on the panel 61 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:55,600 board right in the enclosure. So one of the things we have to remember 62 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,680 is we have to look at the National Electrical Code and we have to look 63 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:03,800 at four zero eight dot fifty four and that's the maximum number of overcurrerent devices. 64 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:06,800 Now, if the manufacturer limits you to twenty, and the panel's not 65 00:05:06,879 --> 00:05:12,160 designed for tandems, okay, it has a CTL and it limits your current 66 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:15,600 circuit. Limiting means the number that you can have in there, then you're 67 00:05:15,639 --> 00:05:18,319 not gonna be able to just throw tandems in there. And they wouldn't fit. 68 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,240 They're not supposed to anyway, unless you're a mcgiver and you make them 69 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:26,240 fit. If the panel is rated for it, then you can use tandems 70 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,120 and it would be just another another space. It's no different. If I 71 00:05:30,199 --> 00:05:33,279 use a tandem on a single space, then I would do two singles. 72 00:05:33,319 --> 00:05:41,839 Again, they are two separate circuits utilizing one breaker. Because so that's counts 73 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:44,879 as two of your spaces. And and that's how you get it. When 74 00:05:44,879 --> 00:05:48,879 you look at the label of the panel. If it's a like a I 75 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:55,240 don't know, let's say a twenty thirty or whatever, you know, just 76 00:05:55,399 --> 00:05:58,240 throwing different ones out in the top of my head there. But if you 77 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:00,079 look at the label and it gives you different options, and it doesn't just 78 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,519 stop at twenty. If it stops at twenty, then that's it. That's 79 00:06:03,519 --> 00:06:08,240 a maximum you can put in there. And so when somebody tells you they 80 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:10,839 can just throw a tandement and what would be that would kind of defeat the 81 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:14,120 purpose? Right if I have twenty circuits and that's supposed to be limiting, 82 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:17,439 but yet I'm allowed to put all kinds of extra breakers in there. Whether 83 00:06:17,519 --> 00:06:21,399 I just loaded with TANEM that essentially takes a twenty and makes it a forty 84 00:06:21,399 --> 00:06:27,720 circuit panel, right, And again that's not limiting anything. That's just allowing 85 00:06:27,759 --> 00:06:30,240 you to put unlimited circuses. So you got to look at the panels. 86 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:32,800 So when you look at four zero eight got fifty four, it says maximum 87 00:06:32,879 --> 00:06:38,560 number of overcurrent devices. Now I'm going to tell you whether your search protectors 88 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:44,000 going in there or you're the feed that's coming in from your generator in let 89 00:06:44,639 --> 00:06:48,720 those take up spaces and they connect to an overcurrent device. So when you 90 00:06:48,759 --> 00:06:51,959 look at four zero eight to fifty four, it says maximum number of overcurrent 91 00:06:51,959 --> 00:06:56,519 devices. Says a panelboard. We're talking the guts here, folks. The 92 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:02,040 breaker connects two says a panelboard shall be provided with physical means to prevent the 93 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:09,279 installation of more overcurrent devices than that number for which the panelboard was designed, 94 00:07:09,519 --> 00:07:14,160 rated and listed for. So that's when you see those CTL ratings, and 95 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:18,120 you have certain panelboards that that's say twenty circuit and that's it, and you'll 96 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:25,199 see some where you look at it and it'll say like thirty forty or you 97 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:28,480 know, different values like that. Then you have the and I don't know, 98 00:07:28,839 --> 00:07:31,759 getting a brain fart on the different you know examples we have out there, 99 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:36,240 but you will see that it'll be very clear on the legend whether or 100 00:07:36,279 --> 00:07:40,639 not you're able to use tandem breakers. And of course if you look at 101 00:07:40,639 --> 00:07:45,319 the panelboard, you'll see that the bus looks slightly different where you're able to 102 00:07:45,399 --> 00:07:48,319 use tandems and where you're not allowed to use tandems. Okay, now with 103 00:07:48,399 --> 00:07:55,759 that scenario, it's still going to count. So you know, just because 104 00:07:55,759 --> 00:08:00,879 you think it's not feeding something, it's being connect two and it's in your 105 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:03,839 panelboard, so obviously it's taking up a space. So almost certainly it's going 106 00:08:03,879 --> 00:08:07,279 to count. Now when you look at four zero eight p. Fifty four, 107 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:09,600 it also gives another sentence that is very helpful that kind of hammers this 108 00:08:09,639 --> 00:08:13,680 thing home. It says, for the purpose of this section, a two 109 00:08:13,759 --> 00:08:20,600 pole circuit breaker or fusible switch shall be considered two overcurrent devices. A three 110 00:08:20,639 --> 00:08:28,800 pole circuit breaker or fusible switch shopping considered three overcurrent devices. So a tandem 111 00:08:28,839 --> 00:08:33,600 breaker is still going to have what two poles on it, then it's going 112 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:37,200 to count is two circuits as far as the count that goes in the panel. 113 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:41,120 Now, again, there are people that will say, well, no, 114 00:08:41,159 --> 00:08:43,759 I'm able to put that tandem in there. Maybe it's an older style 115 00:08:43,799 --> 00:08:46,679 that didn't have the limiting there, and they might say, yeah, I 116 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:50,720 can easily get that tandem in there. But it's all about the rating of 117 00:08:50,759 --> 00:08:58,679 the pan aboard. So whether you can or you can't is all dependent on 118 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,919 the manufacturer and then from the legend that they put inside of the panel covered. 119 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,440 Okay, So that's the easiest way I can answer that question, because 120 00:09:05,519 --> 00:09:09,720 no, if it was a twenty circuit panel and that was it, then 121 00:09:09,759 --> 00:09:13,919 no, I would say you cannot put a tandem in there, because now 122 00:09:13,919 --> 00:09:18,399 what you're gonna have is twenty one okay, and I like in your scenario, 123 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:20,960 then you would have a problem because you would be exceeding the rating of 124 00:09:22,039 --> 00:09:26,320 the panel board what it was listed for. And if Heaven forbids. Something 125 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:30,200 happens, somebody like me comes out there, they're gonna look at the legend, 126 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,120 they're gonna look up this info and they're gonna see what you did. 127 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:35,879 And we're gonna say, you know what, and promise me if you know 128 00:09:37,159 --> 00:09:39,039 you know how the old saying is, if something goes wrong, it's always 129 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:43,039 electrical, right, it always blame electrical. You gotta fire and something, 130 00:09:43,039 --> 00:09:46,960 it's always electrical. Well, as a code person that goes out there and 131 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:50,919 looks at installations, one of the thing we're gonna look at and see is 132 00:09:50,039 --> 00:09:54,679 what all you did wrong? And then we're gonna hang our hat on and 133 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:56,720 say, well, that could have caused it. And you're the one that's 134 00:09:56,759 --> 00:10:01,519 going to have to be defending yourself of those examples where you're you're guilty before 135 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:05,399 you prove your innocence because you violated some listing or something in the code. 136 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:09,399 So let that be the best way I can answer that one. There. 137 00:10:09,919 --> 00:10:13,600 Don't just listen to people say oh, you can put whatever you want in 138 00:10:13,639 --> 00:10:16,600 there, okay, if you don't need to be a mcgiver, just got 139 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:18,480 to make sure you look at the listing of the panel, look at the 140 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:20,960 legend, and it'll tell you whether or not you can or not. Just 141 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:26,080 because something fits doesn't make it right. Okay, right, Okay, So 142 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:28,759 there's a second part. There's a second question here, and so we got 143 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:33,519 to read that one. Okay. The second question is related to EV chargers 144 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:39,080 and the app. Okay, so this is talking about people have EV systems. 145 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:41,279 You now, the Tesla's and all that. You have this app that 146 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:45,799 can control certain aspects of it. And when we're doing a load calculation, 147 00:10:45,879 --> 00:10:48,480 let's say on a dwelling, and you're adding these EV chargers, and again, 148 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:50,639 you're gonna take these at one hundred and twenty five percent, because that's 149 00:10:50,639 --> 00:10:54,440 what the code's gonna tell us under six twenty five. But people are saying, 150 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:58,639 well, if I'm considering this a continuous load, which six twenty five 151 00:10:58,759 --> 00:11:03,759 does, and we'll talk about where in a minute. When you're doing a 152 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:09,440 load calculation, and there's some kind of management system on the building or the 153 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:15,960 structure, an automatic load management system that will limit certain loads. So maybe 154 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:20,879 it's sixty amps, but they have a way it's set up that in the 155 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:24,279 unit it's going to limit it to forty or limit it to thirty or whatever. 156 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:30,159 The limiting factor is that is built into the equipment. Okay, so 157 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,720 I'm going to read this question because again it's really important to the context to 158 00:11:33,759 --> 00:11:35,879 the questions so that I can kind of explain what's really going on here. 159 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:39,240 Okay, so it again, let me read it back again. It says 160 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:43,840 the second question is related to EV chargers and the app. So most of 161 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:48,440 them can be wired different sizes and it is set up through the app. 162 00:11:48,519 --> 00:11:54,440 So if I install one that can be set to a maximum of sixty amps, 163 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:56,879 but I install it and said it to forty amps? Is that code 164 00:11:56,879 --> 00:12:03,919 compliant with six twenty five forty two? Item three says it needs to be 165 00:12:03,919 --> 00:12:09,000 passed or protected only accessible to qualified persons. But the homeowners are in control 166 00:12:09,039 --> 00:12:13,480 of the app in my experience, so how would you be able to install 167 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:20,480 at the lower options? Thanks in advance, great question, and it's important 168 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:22,879 that we understand that. Now. I'll remind you, fella, you didn't 169 00:12:22,919 --> 00:12:28,000 give me your code reference of what year you're using twenty twenty twenty twenty three. 170 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:31,879 All you people out there, listen to me, Listen to me. 171 00:12:33,039 --> 00:12:37,799 Always remind me what code section you're in, I mean code cycle you're in. 172 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:41,720 Because this is a prime example where it's the references changed a little bit 173 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:45,960 for the twenty twenty three still under our section forty two, but the structure 174 00:12:46,039 --> 00:12:50,039 changed. So always let me know. Obviously I could I could tell which 175 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,600 one you're in. You're in the twenty twenty edition of the NBC. But 176 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:56,039 again, all those out there that submit questions through Paul abernatty dot com, 177 00:12:56,399 --> 00:13:01,000 give me a favor. Make sure you give me the the code cycle you're 178 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:03,919 working in, because I am working in so many cycles and I want to 179 00:13:03,919 --> 00:13:07,519 make sure that I give you the right references we're necessary. It's very important 180 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:09,919 to me, all right, So we are going to go in the twenty 181 00:13:09,919 --> 00:13:11,159 twenty edition of the n EC to answer this question. We're gonna look at 182 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:16,639 six twenty five dot forty two, which is rating and as you see here, 183 00:13:16,759 --> 00:13:20,480 and I'll read it to you so that you don't have to worry about 184 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:26,440 reviewing it. It says a power transfer equipment shall have sufficient ratings supply the 185 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:31,600 loads served. Okay, electric vehicle charging loads shall be considered to be continuous 186 00:13:31,639 --> 00:13:37,480 loads for the purpose of this article. Certain that's Article six twenty five. 187 00:13:37,519 --> 00:13:41,600 By the way, service and feeder shall be sized Okay. Now, if 188 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:45,679 we're sizing the service now brand circuits to these things, again, is one 189 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:50,399 hundred twenty five percent of whatever's on the nameplate, that is the actual load 190 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:52,840 being served. Okay. Now, when it comes to service and feeders, 191 00:13:54,279 --> 00:13:58,559 they shall be sized and accordance with the product rating. What is on it? 192 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:03,519 What are the amps on what it puts out? Okay? Analysis is 193 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:09,960 where an automatic load management system is used. The maximum equipment load on a 194 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:18,159 service or feeder shall be the maximum load permitted by the automatic load management system. 195 00:14:18,759 --> 00:14:22,200 Right, so whatever the system is set to do or put out, 196 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,840 then that's what we're going to be using in our service calculation or our service 197 00:14:26,919 --> 00:14:33,720 or feeder load calculation. Now it also states here there's a bunch of tanned 198 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,039 out information, so you really got to go and look at it. It 199 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:43,200 says adjustable settings shall be permitted on fixed in place equipment only. So it's 200 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:50,120 assuming this EV charger is fixed in place. Okay. If adjustments have an 201 00:14:50,159 --> 00:14:54,960 impact on the rating label means it can lower the value that's on the label. 202 00:14:54,519 --> 00:14:58,240 If that's how your installer sets it up based maybe and what is this 203 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:03,000 important, Well, maybe you're adding an EV system to a house that's existing, 204 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:07,279 and you did the low calcum you don't have as much capacity as you 205 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:11,679 think. Maybe you can't get sixty amps out of additional capacity out of this, 206 00:15:11,919 --> 00:15:13,000 but they don't want to go through a service change, they don't want 207 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,759 to go through an upgrade. So you, as the installer, get in 208 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:20,960 and while it may be sixty amps, you may be able to dial it 209 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:26,480 back to forty amps, and maybe that means that the existing service will work 210 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:30,720 fine and the person doesn't have to go through the expense of a service change 211 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,200 a service upgrade. Right, So that's a benefit to you if you know 212 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:35,879 how to do all the math, You know how to calculate things out, 213 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:41,519 so permitted to do that. Okay. Those changes shall be in accordance with 214 00:15:41,559 --> 00:15:46,759 the manufacturer's instructions, so make sure you can do that, and the manufacturer 215 00:15:46,799 --> 00:15:52,840 allows that reduction or a movement of potential current okay, and adjusted rating shall 216 00:15:52,879 --> 00:15:58,559 appear with sufficient durability. That's the label to withstand the environment being used in 217 00:15:58,559 --> 00:16:00,679 the ratings. So you got to have a label. Make sure you know 218 00:16:00,759 --> 00:16:04,200 this is usually going to be for most cases dwelling wise. For it's kind 219 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,279 of what he's asking. It's probably going to be inside of a garage or 220 00:16:07,279 --> 00:16:11,440 whatever, so it's going to be a pretty conditioned space. It goes on 221 00:16:11,519 --> 00:16:15,320 to say electric vehicles supply equipment, which is what he's asking about, with 222 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:23,240 restricted access to the ampure adjustment means shall be permitted to have ampure ratings that 223 00:16:23,279 --> 00:16:30,639 are equal to the adjusted current setting. Okay. So again at this point, 224 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:33,559 if I can just the amps back again for the example we just gave, 225 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:38,080 it is okay to do that, okay, as long as it has 226 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:45,080 this restricted access ability. And so when I read the question, it doesn't 227 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:49,960 sound restricted to me. If you have an app that allows unqualified persons we'll 228 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:52,799 talk about that in a minute to get in and change these settings, it 229 00:16:52,879 --> 00:16:57,639 kind of defeats the purpose. If we're taking existing service and adding EV to 230 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:03,399 it and the sick amp. Let's say it's a sixty A level two charger, 231 00:17:03,879 --> 00:17:07,359 but the house doesn't have that capacity, but the manufacturer allows us to 232 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:11,160 adjust it down to say forty amps, and that would be okay on the 233 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:17,440 existing a service or feeder. Then we can do that with that restricted access 234 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:22,480 And who are we restricting. We're restricting somebody else from coming along and changing 235 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:26,279 what we set in place. Okay, all right. So it also goes 236 00:17:26,319 --> 00:17:32,960 on and says, sizing the service and feeder to match the adjusted the adjusting 237 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,359 means, which is what we adjusted it maybe down from sixty to forty, 238 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:40,480 all right. Sizing the service or feeder based on us doing that shall be 239 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,799 permitted. And it's all because of the examples I just gave you. Now, 240 00:17:44,839 --> 00:17:47,359 if it's new construction, you're already probably gonna figure this all in at 241 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:51,119 sixty amps and everything's good, and you don't need to worry about restrictions, 242 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:53,559 and you're just gonna let that thing run and it's gonna have its full sixty 243 00:17:53,599 --> 00:17:56,880 amps if that's what your charger is putting out, all right. Now, 244 00:17:57,599 --> 00:18:00,440 it goes on to say, and here's a portant, because we were talking 245 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:06,319 about that restricted access, and the user doesn't sound like the homeowner here is 246 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:10,839 restricted from anything on his installations, so that's probably a problem. So let's 247 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:17,400 look at It says restricted access shall prevent the user from gaining access to the 248 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:22,160 adjusting means to raise back up those amps. Okay, And it says restricting 249 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:30,440 access restricted access shall be accomplished by at least one of the following Okay, 250 00:18:30,599 --> 00:18:33,799 Number one, a cover or door that requires the use of a tool to 251 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:41,079 open. All right, So again we can't fix stupid. So if you 252 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:44,640 install something it's behind the cover of a kind of door and they can't get 253 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:48,319 to these controls, whether it's a key or something, they if they go 254 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:52,559 out of their way to get in there to do something, then you know 255 00:18:52,599 --> 00:18:56,240 what stupid is. As stupid does, you're not going to be responsible for 256 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,359 that. As the electrician. If they crank it back up and they have 257 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:03,039 a problem trip in their service or a feeder, it starts overloading, that's 258 00:19:03,039 --> 00:19:07,440 on them, Okay, but that is one option. The next one would 259 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:11,079 be locked doors accessible only to a qualified person. So if it's behind a 260 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:18,839 locked door and it's only accessible to qualified remember your homeowner is not the qualified 261 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:25,079 person. They're not so they should not have access to these controls, and 262 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:27,440 I would not give them access through an app. I would think that apps 263 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:33,039 have certain lockout features where a password that you need from a dealer or something, 264 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:37,640 so you can't get into these settings unless you put in a certain password, 265 00:19:37,839 --> 00:19:41,119 And as a dealer, I would not give them these passwords. I 266 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:45,799 would not let them have their basic function. But I'm not letting them get 267 00:19:45,839 --> 00:19:48,599 into an area where they could move up or down their apps. Okay, 268 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:52,880 based on what this rule states. Now, I can't control the manufacturers and 269 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:56,680 what they let you get into their software, but me as an inspector, 270 00:19:57,039 --> 00:20:02,480 if this is the case, i'd want to know whether or not who has 271 00:20:02,519 --> 00:20:07,839 access. If you're basing your adding Let's say this EVS to an existing service 272 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:12,599 that might not have the capacity if it's full sixty amps evs, but maybe 273 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:18,119 forty was okay because you did a low COLC. Then I would want to 274 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:21,319 have some assurance that the homeowner can't just come in and do it, at 275 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:25,640 least not easily. Right. Obviously they can break doors, open doors, 276 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:29,559 but why the hell would they do that? Right, I'm just saying, 277 00:20:30,079 --> 00:20:34,680 why would they do that? Well? Okay, last one is I think 278 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:41,599 is the one you're referencing in what you're pushing to is password protected commissioning software 279 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:48,000 access only to qualified person. Now, notice this says commissioning software, not 280 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:52,960 your app that might change other features and do the we're talking about once you 281 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:56,880 set it up, once you installed, once you set those votes. Excuse 282 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:02,720 me, those amps at the level that's come patible with their existing system Once 283 00:21:02,759 --> 00:21:06,839 you do that, then it's password protected, it's locked out. There's a 284 00:21:06,839 --> 00:21:11,359 big difference between commissioning, setting everything up, getting everything set up to meet 285 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:15,119 this, and then giving them access to an app. If your app does 286 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:19,480 not restrict them access to changing those the apps up and down, then that's 287 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:23,799 a problem and I would contact the manufacturer and say there's something wrong. And 288 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:30,559 my experience is that usually when you're setting things up, there is certain areas 289 00:21:30,559 --> 00:21:33,799 that can be password protected out and a homeowner says, well, it's mine, 290 00:21:33,839 --> 00:21:37,599 I should be able to do whatever I want. Absolutely not. That's 291 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:44,200 why you get a professional to install it. And again it's one of those 292 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:48,279 things where the homeowner says, prior to twenty twenty three, by the way, 293 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:52,400 I don't want a receptacle on my island. It's my house. I 294 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,240 can do what I want. And I, as an electricians say no, 295 00:21:55,319 --> 00:21:59,519 you don't have that option. I am going to install a receptacle. I'm 296 00:21:59,559 --> 00:22:03,839 going to meet the code. Well, they can have a pissie fit all 297 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,440 they want, but I've got to meet code. I'm the electrician. I'm 298 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:10,119 going to have an inspection. This is the same thing. Once you commission 299 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:11,440 it out, you get it all set up, you set it at the 300 00:22:11,519 --> 00:22:15,200 right amps that is adequate to run on that system. And if it's new 301 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:19,000 construction and you're going to design everything so it can run it at the full 302 00:22:19,039 --> 00:22:25,240 sixty amps anyway, But at the end of the day, absolutely not. 303 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:30,839 I would not let the homeowner have access. It clearly states it's restricted access. 304 00:22:32,039 --> 00:22:36,599 They do not get access to crank that thing up. Because you're commissioning 305 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:38,839 it, you're setting it up, you're setting the levels that are indicative of 306 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:44,319 the system that you're installing it on. That's it. You give them an 307 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:48,640 app. They are not going to get into those what I consider dealer only 308 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:52,279 features. Okay, the other stuff they can circumvent. They can crack a 309 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:56,839 door open, they can use the tool, they can do a lot whatever. 310 00:22:57,279 --> 00:23:03,240 But if you're going to use the software, then you're gonna have to 311 00:23:03,279 --> 00:23:08,799 make sure that they don't get access because they are never considered a qualified person 312 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:17,440 ever. So to me, that's what forty two three is all about, 313 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:22,279 right, And hopefully that answers your question because that's my feeling on it. 314 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:26,200 How you know, All right, there you go, All right, folks, 315 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:27,559 Hey, I appreciate you, thanks for listening to this. Podcast. 316 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,640 It wasn't overly long one, but I felt some people are gonna get something 317 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:36,359 out of that. The follow up here, folks, is make sure you 318 00:23:36,519 --> 00:23:41,079 check out the panels and yes, those breakers do count the spaces. Check 319 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:45,400 the listening on a panel, and again see if it allows you to add 320 00:23:45,599 --> 00:23:49,720 extra stuff like tandems. If it's designed for it, they do count a 321 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,440 tandems of one that takes up one space. If it's got two poles, 322 00:23:53,680 --> 00:24:00,279 it counts as two poles in their number. And then for dealing with ev 323 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:06,880 oor ev se, when it says restricted access, it means it restricted access. 324 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,400 Okay, all right, till next time, folks, stay safe, 325 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,640 God bless and hope you got something out of this episode. Until we meet 326 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:17,559 again, remember you can go to Paul Abernathy dot com and submit all your 327 00:24:17,599 --> 00:24:19,000 questions. I will do my best, and if you have a follow up 328 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:22,319 to a question, just go back to Paul Abernaci dot com. Let me 329 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:26,400 know what episode, give me a summary of your question as it pertains to 330 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:30,119 the actual episode. Don't make me go back and read it. Give me 331 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,160 a little bit of summary and I will try to answer it for you in 332 00:24:33,200 --> 00:25:00,759 a follow up. Until next time, take care o